David Brown has requested that a story he received from a woman who for privacy purposes calls herself "Rachel" be featured in it's own topic heading. David introduces her to you here...
My dear brothers and sisters:
Much has been said in regards to the handling of this "moral failure." Most of you know I am critical of it.
I am attaching an email from a hurting family. I received it this morning. I do have permission as you will see to publish it. It will rip your heart out. They are not members of Bellevue as I understand, yet the actions, or rather inactions, of Dr. Gaines have inflicted hurt on them. Every parent should read this and take heed. We must do EVERYTHING we can possibly do to protect our children. Any less is to fail them. And that is not acceptable.
Once again if you SUSPECT abuse you report it, immediately! Not six months later. The subject line in Rachel's email to me was this: "Just another example of how the Pastor's delay has hurt."
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
Related articles:
Voice to Stop Baptist Predators
Associated Baptist Press
Wendi Thomas in the Commercial Appeal
Stop Baptist Predators Blog
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
613 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 613 Newer› Newest»Thank you for the post, NASS.
NASS, I agree with ace. Thank you.
MY 11:51 P.M. POST APPLIED TO "THETRUTHABOUTACE" AS WELL. THIS FORUM IS NOT ABOUT "ACE"!
NBBCOF
Why was my post deleted? It didn't break any rules!
FOLKS - ATTENTION! Do not listen to anything that Ace says. He is getting paid to monitor these forums and report back to Steve Gaines.
I know EXACTLY who Ace is and while I won't publicly post his name for his privacy, email me at thetruthaboutace@yahoo.com and I will tell you who he is!!!
Some of you send me an email last night...I will respond VERY soon. I am writing my email up and will sent a reply early tomorrow morning.
MEANWHILE, Take a poll I made:
Do you want Ace to leave this forum?
http://poll.pollcode.com/RXj
WEBMASTER,
Got you, sorry. I will change my username.
memphis said:
I am afraid that if people go in there with an attitude that they are being lied to, then no matter how truthful the report is, it will be perceived as lies.
response:
I know what you mean, memphis, I have the same fear, except opposite of yours:
I am afraid that people will go in there thinking that SG is STILL all that AND a bag of chips and nothing that is said will change their opinion of him. " tough not mine annointed" will be their mantra, NO MATTER WHAT HE HAS DONE
And silly me, I thought that Baptists didnt' have a pope.
sickofthelies, email me Sunday night and we can discuss the report.
But I appreciate the civilness (is that a word???) of our conversation tonight
Memphis,
We might need trollcakes or that other scholar ( can't think of the name ) to advise us as to whether or not civilness is a word, but, if i had to guess, civility might be a better word to use :)
But dont' ask me..ask trollcakes.
nobody stay home on Sunday night. Be there.
offline
"Statement from Dr. Steve Gaines
December 19, 2006"
'The past few days have been difficult ones as I have worked through an issue that no pastor wishes to face. We have had to place a minister on a paid leave of absence due to a past moral failure. I learned about this in June from the minister involved and believed the issue was settled. Two weeks ago, I was surprised to find out that it was not. Some people have questioned why I waited for several months. It’s simply this: I acted out of a heartfelt concern and compassion for this minister because the event occurred many years ago; he was receiving professional counseling; and I was concerned about confidentiality.
In light of the events that have unfolded, I realize now that I should have discussed it further with this minister and brought this to the attention of our church leadership immediately.'
******************************
While Dr. Gaines did not use the word "mistake", the above is what he did say. To see the complete statement, go to bellevue.org; click on the sidebar for Dr. Gaines and the Personnel Committee statements.
Dee
Christa Brown,
I have read (and learned) much from your website. I am so sorry to hear of the abuse you suffered, and the continual compounding of it by those in SBC leadership who would hide behind the doctrine of local church autonomy as an excuse for not helping prevent abusive ministers from continuing in ministry. I believe in the doctrine of local church autonomy, but I also think part of the intent of it is supposed to be to increase (not decrease) accountability, by ensuring that members and leaders are closely and connected to a local body of believers. So that doctrine is being abused each time it is given as an excuse for not doing the right thing. The autonomous SB churches cooperate to support their seminaries, publishing agencies, missions organizations, public policy organizations, etc. -- so there is no reason at all that a means could not be established to keep track of ministers with a record of abuse, or of any other form of misconduct. It's true that any office or agency set up for this purpose would not be able to prohibit any given local church from hiring someone with a bad record, but at least the information would be accessible to members and churches, as part of a routine background check. Just the opportunity to have the information would be an extremely positive step. SB churches give so much to the Cooperative Program -- I'm sure the safety of congregations, families, and children would be considered by SB church members to be well worth the relatively minimal funds it would take to establish a denominational "Office of Ministerial Accountability and Integrity." I got the impression from one of your posts that you have communicated with Richard Land on this need without success ... which disappoints me, as I would have expected that a man so committed to the protection of innocent unborn children to also desire to protect innocent born children as well. But since the denominational leaders have thus far not cooperated with your efforts, I have a suggestion. As many have noted here, Dr. Mike Spradlin, president of Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary, is a man of integrity who has demonstrated a genuine concern for promoting accountability in church leadership. I know that he and the other Professors at Mid-America teach their students about the importance of maintaining biblical standards in ministry. So perhaps he would be open to assisting you in your quest. The recent events at Bellevue and his public stand about it might be just the thing to open the door for Mid-America to help take up this cause. If you speak with him (contact info is at www.mabts.edu), and tell him of your story and of your interest in his comments regarding how churches should handle ministers with knowledge of abuse, maybe you could even ask if he might consider establishing an office or research center or clearing house or database through Mid-America seminary to provide, as a service to SB churches, information regarding ministers with a proven history of abuse or immorality. Just a thought. He may have better ideas than that. Sorry this is so long, but I hope it might be helpful. I have prayed for you. Blessings in Christ's name....
allofgrace,
You have mail.
Dee
Sick-o-lies,
"Civility" is the proper term, but like "consequences" and "common sense," they are not words in the Bible, thus not credible.
The word "Trollcates" is not in the Bible, therefore not credible.
OFG said
I'm like Faith, Exhausted!!!
Whatnext,
Just Forgive....Forgive your pastor, and give it to God. He is big enough to handle it. Forgive him for everything...lets be a church again
Piglet says:
God IS handling this. He's doing it right now.
Ofg said
You don't have a clue what happened in June. Either way I'm going to Forgive.
Piglet says:
Forgiving is great. I'm all for it. I will not be bitter against Sg after he is gone and we have a pastor who is fit to lead us.
Sometimes I feel sorry for SG.
He has made so many blunders that it seems as though God's hand is no longer upon his ministry (if it ever was).
Faithnhope said:
quitlyingsg said: I wonder how forgiving you would be if your child was molested at the church...
Why in God's name would you say something like that?!? Was your child molested at Bellevue?!? When? By whom? Have you contacted the authorities? Why not? Are you protecting someone?
Lord, forgive us!
Piglet says:
It's fairly evident to me that quitlyingsg is simply saying that it COULD have happened and would you be so forgiving if it did.
My sons spend hours alone at the church, sometimes with time to kill between two events. I'm mortified that a pedophile was on staff all this time and SG knew it. I'm outraged that he kept this a secret. Nobody can say our kids were safe all that time.
Ace said:
QuitLying,
Iwonder how forgiving you would be if your child was molested at the church
Noone was molested at the church. This post was way out of line.
Piglet says:
Oh, Ace! Get over yourself! This is why I say you are immature.
This is NOT way out of line. This is EXACTLY why the PW thing is so awful! One child was victimized, we know, and another could have very easily been.
Are you still living an adolescent delusion that bad things can't happen?
If it didn't it is merely God's grace and mercy at work.
Don't be so niave.
ofg said;
quitlying,
You should apologize for insinuating that children have been molested at BBC.
Moderator...please delete
Piglet says:
I don't think anyone misunderstood this post except you and faithnhope.
What he said is entirely possible and you don't know for sure that it didn't because DCS and the DA aren't done yet.
Faithnhope
quitlying,
All can say is that I forgave the murderer of my children.
Piglet says:
I thinkyou could surely teach us all a thing or two about forgiveness. I cannot imagine the trauma you experienced.
But with all due respect, I doubt you would take this man back as your husband again. I doubt you would not want him to pay for his crime.
You can forgive him and still not receive him back again.
At the risk of becoming a target, I felt compelled to share two quotes written by John Newton, author of the hymn, "Amazing Grace". This is not targeted at any individual, but something that some on here maybe should consider - oh well here is what Mr Newton said. I think it is appropriate to this discussion
"He believes and feels his own weakness and unworthiness and lives upon the grace and pardoning love of his Lord. This gives him an habitual tenderness and gentleness of spirit. Humble under a sense of much forgiveness to himself he finds it easy to forgive others"
"Though you set out in defense of the cause of God, if you are not continually looking to the Lord to keep you, it may become your own cause and awaken in you those tempers which are inconsistent with true peace of mind and will surely obstruct communion with God."
AOG and WTNbarrister, if I heard you correctly the other night, Newton's second quote is what you were trying to share (maybe).
Would the SG spies on here please relay a message for me?
The letter of resignation from David Cox to his flock showed compassion, humility, and good judgement.
Please consider what's best for your family and what's left of the Bellevue flock.
Goodnight.
Yes, Trollcates is not in the Bible, but at least I don't waste space here with specious threads arguing that it is unbiblical to expect consequences, since the word "consequences" is not in the Bible.
I think that, besides all the hatred directed towards one another, is the low point of this forum.
So, you get all this, and heav'n when your done?
The word "trinity" isn't in the Bible. Even though the word "dispensational" isn't in the Bible almost everyone at Bellevue is a dispensationalist.
not me :)
AOG,
I thought "Elvis" (aog) had left the building. Did you read the Newton quotes?
For the record, it is hot as @#$!%## in Thailand these days!
Trollcates said...
So, you get all this, and heav'n when your done?
Reply:
Trollcates,
It is interesting that you prefer that no one witness to you, however, you feel free to witness your disbelief.
In regard to heaven, I think your statement is very accurate. Moreover, the context in which you ask this question is very disrespectful. This seems to be a growing pattern.
If you dont wish to be witnessed to... please dont witness to your disbelief.
To all,
Today's devotional has to be shared.
Blessings!
Passing the Tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Friday, January 26, 2007
by Os Hillman
The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. ~ 1 Samuel 28:17b
When God anoints a person, a pattern of testing appears to take place at specific times in the leader's life. God often takes each leader through four major tests to determine if that person will achieve God's ultimate call on his or her life. The person's response to these tests is the deciding factor in whether they can advance to the next level of responsibility in God's Kingdom.
Control—Control is one of the first tests. Saul spent most of his time as king trying to prevent others from getting what he had. Saul never got to the place with God in which he was a grateful recipient of God's goodness to him. Saul was a religious controller. This control led to disobedience and ultimately being rejected by God because Saul no longer was a vessel God could use.
Bitterness—Every major character in the Bible was hurt by another person at one time or another. Jesus was hurt deeply when Judas, a trusted follower, betrayed Him. Despite knowing this was going to happen, Jesus responded by washing Judas' feet. Every anointed leader will have a Judas experience at one time or another. God watches us to see how we will respond to this test. Will we take up an offense? Will we retaliate? It is one of the most difficult tests to pass.
Power—Power is the opposite of servanthood. Jesus had all authority in Heaven and earth, so satan tempted Jesus at the top of the mountain to use His power to remove Himself from a difficult circumstance. How will we use the power and influence God has entrusted to us? Do we seek to gain more power? There is a common phrase in the investment community, "He who has the gold rules." Jesus modeled the opposite. He was the ultimate servant leader.
Greed—This is a difficult one. Money has the ability to have great influence for either good or bad. When it is a focus in our life, it becomes a tool of destruction. When it is a by-product, it can become a great blessing. Many leaders started out well—only to be derailed once prosperity became a part of their life. There are thousands who can blossom spiritually in adversity; only a few can thrive spiritually under prosperity.
As leaders, we must be aware when we are being tested. You can be confident that each one of these tests will be thrown your way if God calls you for His purposes. Will you pass these tests? Ask for God's grace today to walk through these tests victoriously.
sickofthelies said...
Hey Memphis and MJM
I was wondering if you read Rachael's story, and if so, if you have taken a different position.
Has it changed your opinion as to the way that SG handled the PW thing at our church?
11:38 PM, January 25, 2007
Sickofthelies,
First, yes I read Rachel's story and it breaks my heart. I believe the problem of sexual abuse within our churches is far more pervasive than any of us ever knew, and most of us can probably put ourselves, as parents, in her shoes. What Rachel's family has gone through is beyond comprehension to me, and I am praying for healing and restoration for Rachel and her family.
In answer to your question about my position on the issues facing Bellevue, I have to be honest and say that I am still prayerfully awaiting the results of Sunday night's report. Memphis has already stated so eloquently what he feels, and I find myself agreeing with him, so I won't try to say it any better.
Also, as I have said from day one, my faith is in the Lord, and I believe that He can use even this current situation at Bellevue to bring hope and healing among His own, work it together for good in the lives of those who are called according to His purpose, and bring glory to Himself. Whatever His answers are for Bellevue at this point, He has not revealed them to me.
I am disturbed by the seeming far-reaching effects of our situation on others who are observing. I understand that anything in life has the potential for arousing within our hearts all kinds of feelings and struggles, but to me, that's one of the biggest and most personal places where God comes in and ministers to my spirit. Were this not so, everyone's divorce would affect me (because my parents were divorced), every rape would devastate me (because I have been a rape victim), every evil word spoken against another brother or sister would cut me to the quick (because not only have I been the recipient of others' words, but others have been targeted by mine, as well), and so on. Only by God's grace can I find the strength to live in this fallen world.
I am reminded of the stories of so many "wanderers" in God's Word, and the line of a song by Don Moen keeps running through my head: "God can make a way where there seems to be no way." Do I really believe that? Do I really believe that as dark as things look for our fellowship, God can provide a way through it all?
I have to answer a resounding yes, with all my heart.
And what does He require of me? To act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with Him. (Micah 6:8)
I approach Sunday night with that as my prayer, as well as the earnest request that He fill me with His Holy Spirit and grant me the discernment to know and follow His will as I listen and respond to that which is presented.
"God will make a way where there seems to be no way." May we as His people seek His way and none other.
ace said...
ATTENTION EVERYONE - to know if a post is from the real 'Ace' or not, click on the userprofile (click on their name). - If the view counter has more than 1,000 views, that is me...the real Ace.... if it's a really low number, please know that it is the fake imposter.
Actually you don’t need to click on the profile to determine fake versus real. Just place your mouse pointer over Ace’s name in blue that is underline (but don’t click). If you are using windows explorer in the lower left corner of your screen just above the “start” button you will see a web address. The real Ace’s address is http://www2.blogger.com/
profile/03615075142285176680. This is the web address you would be taken to if you do click on Ace’s name and wish to see his profile. All you need to pay attention to is the last four numbers in the address “6680”. Just remember the last four digits are “6680” for real Ace. If you see any other numbers it is not real Ace. Last night fake Ace was using an address with the last three digits “002”. This method if identification is faster and easier than actually clicking thru to view the profile. When you click thru you lose your place in the thread which is a pain in the neck in a long thread.
So, to sum up, place your pointer over Ace’s name and look in the lower left corner for the digits “6680”. Anything else is fake.
Heavenly Father,
I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
for which it stands
one nation
under you
with liberty and justice
for all.
Father,
Please help us follow the Ten Commandments. Help us to read today's text from the Bible (USA english) ("thou shalt" english). Please let the Great Commission move forward today in Bolivia. In Jesus's name, Amen.
Thank you for this thread, "Rachel's Story - The Risk of Ignoring a "Moral Failure""
Please, This is not about
' if anyone is for or against S. Gaines'!!
Please, lets all pray for discernment.
The horrible facts concerning child sexual abuse are certain and real...
This is not about hate..
This is not about unforgivingness..
This is about real life- real protection of CHILDREN EVERYWHERE!!
The abuse location is not so much the issue...it can happen any where at any time! Please don't argue not here or not there...not this person or that person...
TAKE ACTION TO STOP ABUSE HERE AND THERE NO MATTER WHERE!!
Lets be a part of the solution together as Christ's Church!!
Write all the letters to anyone who has any possible influence/power to begin the end to child abuse....
God knew us before we were born...He made us in His image..protect His children with all His might that is within you!
again...This is not about if anyone is for or against S Gaines!!
It is about stoping abuse and the secrecy that promotes abuse...
Can we imagine a pair of young eyes looking up to someone and asking them to stop and being helpless??
Can you then imagine them going before an adult (perhaps a minister) years later and telling them this horrible secret becoming emotionally naked before them and being turned away?
No we probably cannot..
We cannot even imagine the torture of a parent watching their child knowing this has happened to them..
but if we walk with them we might fight for them all the more...
They need our help in carrying their horrible, heavy burden...
Stay focused...
Stay the fight...
When we keep our eyes on Jesus we keep our eyes on the least of these as well...
I am praying for God's wisdom for leaders where ever they might be...TO DO THE RIGHT THING.
Help us to heal!
Do not give up..
Stay the race..
When we are weak we are strong in our Father!
ofg,
Let's not get into it today. I don't know the fake you-know-what, and s/he isn't welcome here. Neither are people whose only goal is to stir up trouble and tell me how to moderate this forum. So please, let's forget about it and move on.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
Free Ace!! Free Ace!! Free Ace!!
Stop the Lies!!! Stop the Lies!!!
Telos,
Powerful devotional this morning at 8:14 AM! Everyone, be sure to read it.
Man! How exactly does that hit the nail on the head? And, the "washing Judas' feet"--who does that speak of in your head? No doubt in mine.
Thank you for posting it.
Y'all, don't miss it!!!!!!!!
Dee
Members of BBC, PRAY!
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying. The pulpit can be a shop-window to display one’s talents; the prayer closet allows no showing off. Poverty-stricken as the church is today in many things, she is most stricken here, in the place of prayer. We have many organizers, but few agonizers; many players and payers, few pray-ers; many singers, few clingers; lots of pastors, few wrestles; many fears, few tears; much fashion, little passion; many interferers, few intercessors; many writers, but few fighters. Failing here, we fail everywhere." ~Leonard Ravenhill
Dear brothers and sisters: I need to apologize about a statement I made incorrectly yesterday. I said that the SBC maintained a database of names of pedophile ministers. That was NOT correct.
Having said that, we must make the SBC maintain such a list, and be willing to provide that information when requested by the proper people. Some of our smaller sister churches cannot afford to run extensive background checks. The SBC must help them and is one way they should be doing it.
Once again sorry for any confusion I may have caused. Please forgive me.
I love you all and lets please keep our children safe.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennesee and Memphis
Maybejustmaybe...
What a beautifully written post you wrote at 8:25 AM today. I, too, am prayerfully awaiting the report on Sunday.
Love to you in Christ,
Dee
Bless you, Dee. Love you, too, my sister.
anguish4thechurch...
Your post at 9:28 AM was also so powerful! I cannot believe how pertinent this mornings offerings are. All of you keep up the good work and read these devotional-type lessons.
Dee
SOURCE: Rick Warren's Global Peace Plan vs. Scriptural Teachings on Peace, pp. 11-12. pp. 133-134, Bible Belt Publishing, Southwest Radio Church, 2006.
I wish we could keep the spam of the blog. Or at least provide the price and ordering info.
Because this coming Sunday is important, I would like us to approach it in a holy way.
For six months this blog has conducted business on every sabbath day.
Is this blog over the fact that God created all creation in six days, then rested? In all his power, God rested.
Is this blog over a law that was written by the hand of God into stone and placed into the hand of man, Moses?
Is this blog over a law that Jesus Christ honored?
Let's all be praying about whether our hands have been clean during the last six months.
Let's please take the time to do that tomorrow instead of lurking here.
I believe God will bless each of us that follow the Ten Commandments in our heart.
I submit this to you respectfully, peacefully, lovingly, truthfully, in trepidation, knowing that it may draw an angry response or even simply a refuasal to even read or acknowledge what I have said so many times in the past six months.
Joseph
Friendinjx and All,
I had asked that friendinjx email me, but he hasn’t. It is just as important that the rest of you read this as well and I hope he will run across this post.
It doesn’t surprise me that Mac Brunson is ignoring requests to exclude Steve Gaines from the itinerary for the conference at First Baptist Church in Jacksonville. I would think it would be an honor for him to have the prestigious pastor from Bellevue Baptist Church to speak at his church as a part of this conference. It is just as Liberty in Christ told you in an earlier post, birds of a feather do flock together. This blogger offered proof, and I am about to offer more.
In the book, “Transitioning-Leading Your Church Through Change”, the author, Dan Southerland, offers on page twenty-eight, a list of model churches of which one should strive to copy. They are in the order given:
(1) First Baptist Church of Jacksonville
(2) Willow Creek Community in Chicago
(3) Saddleback Church in South Orange County
(4) Eastside Foursquare Church in Seattle
(5) Wooddale Church in Minneapolis
The common denominator is the purpose driven movement – the seeker sensitive phenomena; that which increases the numbers meaning nickels and noses. This is the ace…the drawing card; that which binds them together. It becomes a contest – who has the biggest and best. They converge and the biggest stars are the guest speakers. Don’t you see? Mac Brunson and Steve Gainese are buddies. They are all in this together. To think that Mac Brunson would dispel Steve Gaines from this list for a few resisters from his church…well, lets just suffice it to say it isn’t going to happen. They are joined at the hip. Look back at the list. First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Florida is a PD church.
Liberty in Christ gave you this address and the information contained there in. Please do yourselves a great service and go there. Listen to Betty Irwin’s story. Listen to other PD stories on the previous broadcasts. They are on this website…lots of them. Just look under the archived broadcast…you can find them. You will be listening to the cries you are now crying yourselves. Here is the link to it again:
http://www.swrc.com/broadcasts/2005/march.htm and by 11/07, 11/11, 11/24, 2004 and 1/6 2005 letters by Betty Erwin to Mr. & Mrs. Mac Brunson and another former pastor at Dallas First Baptist Church, and telephone interview March 2005."
It isn’t about winning souls…it is about filling the pews. Once again…nickels and noses. And it continues to get worse.
Ima
Pinker socks...
Is Steve Tucker related to Sonny Tucker?
Dee
I actually like the new Ace.
Bin Wondering,
Thank you for your 8:37 AM, January 26, 2007 post - that was very nice of you...I appreciate it!
NBBCOF,
I don't know the fake you-know-what
So is my name a bad word now? Heh, just kidding....
2006,
I actually like the new Ace.
Who me? Or the fake one? I'm not sure what you mean by the 'new' one.
Ace...
If you are the one with 100+ views, then YOU are the one I like. I sort of thought the "new" Ace might be the "old" Ace who is trying to see how it feels to be on the other side. Anyway, it has been refreshing and I hope it is you.: ) (Bet you're really confused now.)
Dee
Dee, unfortunately the old Ace has not had a change of heart. We are two different people.
Ace posts here to disrupt the blog. I post here to disrupt Ace.
New wording from Sunday's BellevueToday...
"As a courtesy to nearby worshippers, please refrain from still photography, or making video and audio recordings of the worship service. Thank you."
Question: When will they refrain from making video recordings of the congregation during worship services? I would think it would be very distracting to those worshippers sitting near the front to have cameras trained on them while they're trying to concentrate on... say, worship.
Ace...
Thank you.
Dee
ace (one of them) wrote:
"So is my name a bad word now?"
Not yet, but it's not about you, and I'd like to ask EVERYONE to drop the "ace" talk. That's not what we're here for.
And let me remind you, we've got people all over the world watching this forum. Please conduct yourselves accordingly.
NBBCOF
Dear 8002 Ace: I implore you to STOP. I do not think it is funny or even appropriate. Please carry on your private war with ACE somewhere else.
You may think this is cute but it is getting very old. ACE is entitled to his/her opinions. Email him/her if you want. But do not tie up this thread with this ridiculous stuff. You take away from the message of trying to urge parents and churches to be dilligent in protecting our children.
For the record, the real ACE did help me. I sincerely appreciate that too. And again I want to thank him/her.
To the real ACE how were the cookies? You owe me some.
Maybe we can and should meet when this is all is over? I would like that. I will be at Bellevue this Sunday evening.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
David,
Ace, 4545, and others made themselves an issue by continually disrupting the blog. They are not here for honest dialog. If they were no one would mind. They are here to spy for the administration and disrupt.
Ace isn't all bad. I am happy he helped you.
Thanks for what you do. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one point.
New BBC Open Forum said...
New wording from Sunday's BellevueToday...
"As a courtesy to nearby worshippers, please refrain from still photography, or making video and audio recordings of the worship service. Thank you."
Question: When will they refrain from making video recordings of the congregation during worship services? I would think it would be very distracting to those worshippers sitting near the front to have cameras trained on them while they're trying to concentrate on... say, worship.
Amen to that. Of course, Bellevue wants footage of its members worshipping for the effect of the TV broadcasts, and to be fair, pretty much every church that broadcasts on TV does the same.
However, Bellevue also uses the cameras to screen the crowd for known "troublemakers", a practice that actually began years ago, at the same time they installed security cameras at all the church entrances.
By the way, have any of you ever been harassed and 'shaken down' by the campus security patrols over the years? I have, and I know plenty of others who have as well.
fake ace wrote:
"Ace, 4545, and others made themselves an issue by continually disrupting the blog."
I think most of us can agree on that point, and it's been discussed ad nauseum. We get it! Okay?
However, I have asked you before to change your screen name and to drop the "ace" talk. Now, please either do so, or I'll start deleting your comments.
NBBCOF
New BBC Open Forum,
Thank you my brother. It's never too late to finish strong!!!
trollcates said
Yes, Trollcates is not in the Bible, but at least I don't waste space here with specious threads arguing that it is unbiblical to expect consequences, since the word "consequences" is not in the Bible.
Piglet says:
Consequences = Reaping what you sow.
8002 Ace: SO WHAT? If that were true I welcome it. I have absolutely nothing to hide or fear. I do not have to hide my name. I want the administration to know how I and many others have and are being affected by this horrible crime.
When I say crime I am not talking just about Bellevue. Let me make that clear. This crime is all around us in so many ways. You heard the stats yesterday, 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 9 boys are victims of sexual abuse as children. That makes my blood boil. 1 is one too many as far as I am concerned.
I am trying to create an environment where victims feel safe in coming forward. Oh how I wish there was something like that for me in 1961. Yet I was a coward and hid it away until 1996. And on top of that it took another 9 years until 2005 to finally deal with it as I should have long ago. Victims do not need feel that way. They need to know they will be believed when they tell their story. Thank God for parents like Rachel and her husband.
I am sorry again but when I see us going off topic on this particular thread, I do get upset. What message do we send to the victims?
As several dear fellow saints this morning, let's be reflective in the upcoming days. And most of all be in prayer.
Dear Joseph: I read your comments about this blog doing business on Sundays. I do not consider being on the watch and trying to protect our children from harm as a job or business, rather I consider it a privilege. I do love and respect you my brother. But didn't young Joseph's own brothers turn on him and abuse him and cover it up?
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
For the record, I don't think anyone is arguing there are not consequences for sin....
Just about who gets to decide what they are. Some believe we (other humans/christians) decide and some believe it is entirely up to God and many that believe it falls somewhere in between.
David Brown
I agree. Prayer is paramount.
I am praying for Holy Spirit conviction to be so strong upon individuals who are doing wrong or covering wrongdoing,that they would be miserable.
I am also praying for those who have a decision to make - whether to take a risk and do the right thing, trusting God for the consequences of pusuing holiness and a clear conscience.
Please, people, pray for godly men and women caught in the middle, that they hear the voice of the Lord and have the courage to be obedient to Him and not man.
imaresistor:
I didn't email you, because I knew what you were going to say. We already exchanged emails three weeks ago and you told me what you were going to tell me about Mac Brunson and FBC Jacksonville.
Actually when it comes to purpose driven churches, what concerns me most is the churches (actually its the PASTORS) are going after the money. Their purpose is not to build a church through truth and to reach the lost, its TO ENRICH THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES AT THE EXPENSE OF THE BELIEVERS. They use the church, the church's name, the church's resources, the church's wealthy members, to "brand" their names and make more money. As I mentioned before in my posts the mega church pastors are becoming more like the "televangelists" in their quest for power and money. I see this at FBC Jacksonville sadly, and I see it at BBC. I could go on, but this is not the forum to share what I know in these matters.
bepatient wrote:
"Some believe we (other humans/christians) decide and some believe it is entirely up to God and many that believe it falls somewhere in between."
For the "it is entirely up to God" crowd (and I'm not saying that includes you personally because I don't think it does), why do we even bother with laws, courts, police, etc.? This is one area where I'd say it's not so much "somewhere in between" as it is both.
NBBCOF,
I was referring to anything that does not fall under the authority of the law- that was the original discussion, and I am sorry I forgot to make that clear in this recent post.
I think we all agree that God says we have to submit to the laws and authorities that govern us.
Friendinfx,
Thanks for your reply. And you are right...this isn't the right post for this dialogue. I was very hesitant about posting it here, but wanted to surface my thoughts on this. I did post it on the other thread (just below this one) as well.
I would be very interested in hearing more of what you are saying. Why don't we carry this conversation to that other thread? If not, that is okay too.
Thanks...
Ima
Everyone - hate to be a broken record, but I'll bring up the emailing Mac Brunson again. Please don't reject my argument out of hand. Some of you may not have read what I'm going to write below.
The reason why this should be relevant to Mac Brunson and why he should not have Steve Gaines to preach at his church right now:
In addition to reasons given already by mo_scratch and a few others, here was my premise I made three weeks ago at this blog:
Here in Jacksonville, Florida, in the PAST YEAR it was discovered that Bob Gray, the much beloved and revered retired pastor of Trinity Baptist Church (large fundamental, independent Baptist Church in Jacksonville) was a SERIAL CHILD MOLESTER with 20 or so known victims. He was arrested and today sits in jail and is awaiting trial.
"So what" you say? How does this tie to BBC and Mac Brunson and Steve Gaines?
THE CURRENT PASTOR OF TRINITY BAPTIST CHURCH, TOM MESSER, KNEW ABOUT THE MOLESTATION IN THE EARLY 1990'S AND DID NOTHING. This resulted in more victims at the hands of the monster Bob Gray. In fact, Messer and Trinity ridded themselves of this "problem" by sending Gray to "minister" (read: molest) people in Germany as a missionary. Messer didn't even tell the missionary agency that sponsered Gray of Gray's "moral failure"; who knows how many more Gray molested in Germany.
Thus, here in Jacksonville and other parts of the nation, there are victims of Bob Gray who are suffering because Messer and others knew of the molestation and did NOTHING. So we here in Jacksonville, the people Mac Brunson professes to want to reach, are very sensitive to pastors who don't have the guts to root out molesters from their congregation. Perhaps, Steve Gaines is in the same predicament as Tom Messer, in that perhaps his failure to report the moral failure to the congregation has resulted in other victims. As of now, we don't know because the investigations are not complete. I know BBC did their own internal investigation and they will be reporting that there were no other victims, but those of us in Jacksonville who have watched the Trinity fiasco unfold know that these internal investigations at mega churches are suspect at best. Trinity did their own internal investigation, and concluded that Messer and others did NOT cover anything up regarding Gray. This proved to be total, bald-faced lie, as our local TV station did a series of exposes, interviewing people at Trinity, including a victim who was brave enough to come out with her name (she is a pastor's wife in North Carolina), that said Messer knew. Messer knew, yet the church said he did nothing wrong.
So, I say this: Mac Brunson should show respect for these victims by NOT giving Steve Gaines the honor of coming to town to preach to thousands of pastors UNTIL THIS IS RESOLVED AND ALL INVESTIGATIONS ARE COMPLETED. By doing the honorable thing and asking Gaines to not come (Mac doesn't have to announce publically WHY, just DO it) would send a POWERFUL message to the Baptist world that at least ONE pastor is willing to stand with the victims of molestation, and is standing against any pastor who doesn't have the guts or the common sense to rid his congregation immediately of a molestor. Now, after the DA and DCS finishes their investigations and the matter has been resolved, and everyone is certain that Gaines dodged a bullet and no other victimes occurred, then have Steve Gaines NEXT YEAR.
Having said that, I feel COMPELLED to kindly ask Mac to reconsider having Steve Gaines in to speak. I hope others will do the same, and I hope Mac does the right thing. I know Mac thinks he is doing the noble thing by standing by his friend Steve Gaines through this troublesome time in Steve's life. But Mac, you can still support Steve and help him and encourage him, without giving him the public platform of respectability in your pulpit. The community in Jacksonville is watching, Mac.
MOM4 said...
NBBCOF said....
Question: When will they refrain from making video recordings of the congregation during worship services? I would think it would be very distracting to those worshippers sitting near the front to have cameras trained on them while they're trying to concentrate on... say, worship
If you watch closely, other than the ushers/ministers who are stationed at the front, it is usually the same people and it appears for the most part, they enjoy the limelight. Some of them I personally know and they think very highly of themselves. I would imagine they would not be opposed to having their face on TV every week.
But as for the rest of us....that is a different question....
1:06 PM, January 26, 2007
"The true man of God is heartsick, grieved at the worldliness of the Church...grieved at the toleration of sin in the Church, grieved at the prayerlessness in the Church. He is disturbed that the corporate prayer of the Church no longer pulls down the strongholds of the devil." ~Leonard Ravenhill
May we seek to pray this weekend like never before. Our arguing will not accomplish anything godly. Let us spur one another on to love and good deeds. I see a lot of passion for defending your opinions. Let us instead turn to passionate prayer.
I hate to be the bearer of sad tidings because most of you on both sides seem so hopeful concerning the report on Sunday night. Maybe what happened at our church will not happen at BBC.
At our church, we could say "ditto" to your problems, even to the sexual matter. We hired outside professionals to make our report and it was truthful and scathing. But, those left in the church (deluded ones)ignored the facts and it's findings have never been discussed with the congregation. I've heard it said, "they just didn't interview the right people." So any excuse will do.
End result--the pastor did resign, but only to leave for a better-feathered nest. BTW, we showed him our "standing ovation" by going against those who had stayed to "fight the good fight" by sending him away with his pockets full of tithes and offerings. This, after the church has been torn apart, hundreds have left the congregation and taken their tithes with them.
So, be prepared for such a result, especially since you had an "inhouse" investigation. Those who are spiritually blind and deaf won't really care what the report says. It's the delusion spoken of in 2nd Thess. As you know, it's not flesh and blood that we're fighting against. Too many churches across the country are going through this for us not to recognize who we're really fighting. But, we must still contend for the faith and be not weary in well-doing. Unfortunately, the deluded ones think well-doing is just forgiveness and love--they forget that God has another side to His nature and we'll see that soon, I believe.
2 Thessalonians 2:
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
The point being, we will believe lies and be deceived before the lawless one comes. That is to prepare the way for us to believe the fake miracles. In order to believe these lies and deception, we will start by ignoring the precepts of the Word in dealing with sin and deception.
inthespirit wrote:
Unfortunately, the deluded ones think well-doing is just forgiveness and love--they forget that God has another side to His nature and we'll see that soon, I believe.
Unfortunately, the 'enlightened' ones who think well-doing is all law and punishment--they too forget that God has another side to His nature and we'll see that soon, I believe...
Anguish4thchurch...
Oh, Anguish, you are so right. Pray, pray, pray. I am glad you put more of Leonard Ravenhill on here. This is so good for us. Now, if we will be doers and not hearers only. "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (James 5:16)
Prayer with brokenness really does work. I remember when my son had to go to Saudi Arabia in 1990-91 for Operation Desert Storm and how it drew me so close to the Lord. My husband and I had driven to Fort Hood, Texas to get J's new truck and bring it back home. My son didn't know how long he would be gone or if he would even make it back. So, we drove 10 hours straight after both getting off work and saw J one more time before he was flown out on a helicopter in the middle of the night, September 16, 1990--his 22nd birthday. Three days after he arrived in Saudi he was living in a hole in the desert near the Iraqi-Kuwaiti border. From there he and his men in the First Tiger Brigade would go out at night and place guidance for the smart bombs at various sites. Sometimes, they encountered the enemy and had to kill them, bury them and mark the map where they had done so. This was all in secret since neither the actual "air war" nor the "ground war" had yet begun.
The devil would try to attack me through my mind by telling me things like "What if they catch him? What do you think they are going to do to him? Cut off his head? Cut off his hands? Cut him all over?" It was a nightmare as satan tried to fill me with fear.
However, God will not be mocked, and He filled me with His strength when I had none--zero. And He gave me my prayers and what to pray for. I would go into our extra bedroom and get down on my knees or my face, whichever I felt led to do, and I would cry--a lot. I would be saying things like, "Lord, I know You are a jealous God, and I know those Iraqi Muslims face Mecca and pray 5 times a day. But, Lord, I will be in here MORE than 5 times a day--without ceasing I will pray-- and I will KNOW that I don't need to face any direction for You to hear me and help me. THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BUT YOU. HALLELUJAH! I love You, Lord Jesus. I praise You, Lord Jesus."
Well, my son was never captured during the early days before the ground war, but on the second day of the ground war he was wounded. Jamie told me all the time that he could feel my prayers and could tell that the Lord was with him. God gave him the confidence he needed to overcome the enemy. He and his little five-man team approached a tunnel-like hole the day before the command had told them to cease entering those holes. They tied a lifeline on J, and he pushed his way into this dark tunnel, came upon an opening, pulled his flashlight around (with his 45 in his other hand), and met an Iraqi soldier face-to-face. This fellow pulled the pin on a grenade to kill himself and my son just as Jamie shot him. Instantaneously, Jamie pulled back but was still hit about six places on his body including his neck, chest, torso and arm. His eardrums were ruptured. He was covered in blood when they pulled him out and medivacked him to the closest field hospital unit. His buddies feared he was dead or dying, but, praise Jesus, he was not. The doctor said he could not believe that the two fragments that hit him in the chest did not penetrate the sternum and told my son that "somebody must be praying for you. If it wasn't for the angle they hit you, those would have hit your heart." The one on his neck just missed his jugular vein. Do you believe that after he got stapled up, he wanted to go back to his buddies so he could let them know he was still alive? And the next day when they stood on Mutlah Ridge and fired on escaping Iraqis fleeing Kuwait, he could not hear a thing anyone was saying, but he could see the excitement that they had been successful in routing the enemy--with the Lord's help.
Pray. It's the only way. Learn to do it more often and more fervently without having to be taught the "hard way" as I was. And let's do what bible-in-a-year suggested and take this Sunday off from blogging and keep Sunday wholly and holy for His sake.
Love to all of you, my precious brothers and sisters,
Dee
Sorry this is so long, but it was how and when I was really TAUGHT to PRAY. It is my hope that perhaps someone might be spared a very tough lesson just by hearing what happened to me.
I am prepared for the slamming I'm going to get for this, but I'm going to say it anyway.
If you believe the half truths (also known as lies), the moral failure (also called sin) and the apologies coming from the pulpit, I now know how people will be deceived by the anti-Christ.
Do with that statement what you will, but it is my opinion that some people at Bellevue are so blinded by whatever they are blinded by that the report being read on Sunday night will make no difference. Those people will be the ones who will stand and cheer about a pedophile kept on staff and nothing will change their closed minds.
Please God, humble us, bring us to our knees and help us seek Your face.
Karen
Galatians 5:24
Imaresistor said,
birds of a feather do flock together. This blogger offered proof, and I am about to offer more.
In the book, “Transitioning-Leading Your Church Through Change”, the author, Dan Southerland, offers on page twenty-eight, a list of model churches of which one should strive to copy. They are in the order given:
(1) First Baptist Church of Jacksonville
(2) Willow Creek Community in Chicago
(3) Saddleback Church in South Orange County
(4) Eastside Foursquare Church in Seattle
(5) Wooddale Church in Minneapolis
It isn’t about winning souls…it is about filling the pews. Once again…nickels and noses.
Response: Great proof, you SLANDERED Mac Brunson of First Baptist Church. The book you mentioned was published in 2002. Four years before Mac Brunson got their.
Now you are going to tear down Homer Lindsay and who was there 31 years. By the way FBC Jacksonville is the third largest SBC church.
Concerning your naysaying view of Rick Warren, lets remember who brought, approved and admired Rick Warren's book into BBC.
Tearing down another great preacher with your lies and false information. Twisting things to try and prove a point.
Another indication of the liason of Steve Gaines and Mac Brunson and their purpose driven agenda and proof that Mac Brunson is purpose driven is this broadcast from southwest radio church with the interview of this lady, Betty Erwin. Mrs. Erwin is a resistor, another victim, of the church growth movement, more explicit the purpose driven movement...which is indicative of the problem at Bellevue. Please listen to what this lovely lady has to offer you.
First go to the provided site I have linked you to...swrc.com. To your left you will find a column; click on "Broadcasts", fifth row. Next, to the right please click on "2005 Broadcasts". Next, you will see the "Daily Broadcast for 2005-Listed by Month" - click on March. Go to March 1 - you will see Betty Erwin's name. Listen. Listen closely. Mac Brunson was her pastor. More of the same.
HearBettyErwin
I am totally shaken by the attitudes of our pastors today!
Telos,
No disrespect, sir; the line "you get all this and heav'n when you done" is from a Christian band I followed in the 80's, from an awesome concept album titled Doppleganger by Daniel Amos--it is a critique directed to the church regarding self-centeredness and indifference to suffering in the world.
I challenge nothing in y'all except to follow the example of the one you claim to serve and to not bog down the conversation with specious arguments such as discounting the "concept" of consequences because that particular "signifier" is not in scripture. Of course the concept is in the Bible--even I know that.
I am unwelcome here, but I've stated why keeping up with y'all is important to me, I've been kind, encouraged you to embrace your faith in your time of trouble, and thanked those of you concerned for my salvation; however, rationales that Gaines should be forgiven (and of course he should) should not collude paper-thin and desperate arguments that he should thus remain in a position for which he has lost all credibility.
Conversely, I have been told that I'm going to hell, that Christ is not happy with the "Buddah thing," and my comments are mostly ignored. Sorry to be an interloper in the clubhouse, but I'm not looking for an invitation.
This is no longer a internal church matter, as it too has endured a 17 year lapse for which all people of conscience (and you know, they do exist in other faiths, even amongst (yikes)Muslims and Buddhist.
You're famous, get over it. People of all stripes want to know that the business of a child's security is taken care of, even if the congregation shows itself to be more concerned with saving the organization at any price.
I assert myself here, not as a Christian, but as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse (which also obviously lends me no credibility), and I don't apologize for demanding sound logic in the pursuit of justice. You delude yourself if you think this is a matter of theology--try laying some of that on the DCS.
I am not here to witness any distain for Christ, or all Christians (but some, yes, that would use scripture for selfish purposes), the Bible, etc., but rather straw arguments for non-action regarding Gaines' failure at BBC.
I make this distinction, friend, and I'm sorry that I have not communicated such clearly. I will try to do better.
Hope Patterson
Unfortunately, the 'enlightened' ones who think well-doing is all law and punishment--they too forget that God has another side to His nature and we'll see that soon, I believe
Piglet says:
I believe there has been a heapin' helpin'of love and forgiveness already. On 9/24 we forgave the pastor and then were slapped in the face again that very week when he proceeded to preach for extra pay at other churches and bad-mouth us while he was gone.
A lot of forgiveness has been requested but no repentance has taken place. He keeps doing the same stuff and asking for "do overs".
I'll forgive him if he continues to shame us, lie to us, shut us out , belittle us, and take financial advantage of us but I will not TRUST him again.
We should be learning something of his character by now,I would hope.
Trollcates,
I completely understand why you continue to post here and as far as I am concerned, you are most welcomed. Matter of fact, are you sitting with Randy and I on Sunday morning? My parents will be back in town so we sit about 3 rows from the front in the same section if you are so inclined to join us. Same invite stands for Sunday night.
Just because you don't believe as we do doesn't me that you are to be shunned. I admire you for your candor and openess regarding your childhood. I don't think people here understand the depth of your suffering, but as a fellow abuse victim (as an adult), it's something we will always share in common.
Now all that to say, I'd love to spend eternity with you in Heaven (being raised in a Christian church, you knew I'd say that!), but just because you don't make an instant decision to follow Jesus doesn't mean that you won't one day. Just remember one day becomes one day less if you delay. You know I pray for you, my brother.
Karen
And I stand with you dear sister.
David
Karen, of all the folks posting here on a regular basis, I do believe you have one of the sweetest spirits. I appreciate and honor that in you.
(Are you doing ok after your "incident" Wed. morning?)
NBBCOF,
Question: When will they refrain from making video recordings of the congregation during worship services? I would think it would be very distracting to those worshippers sitting near the front to have cameras trained on them while they're trying to concentrate on... say, worship.
Their purpose isn't to disrupt, unlike the intentions of other people. Have they ever gotten any complaints about their video shots that they get? No... Have they ever got complaints about Mr. Haywood's video shots? Yes...
And if you don't want to be on camera, go to the 11 o clock service and you'll be safe.
Scion,
By the way, have any of you ever been harassed and 'shaken down' by the campus security patrols over the years? I have, and I know plenty of others who have as well.
Please do tell us about this experience. What did they accuse you of doing? Be honest.... And did they really "shake you down"?
maybe,
awww, you make me blush! Thank you!
I'm doing okay after the car wreck; my shoulder is pretty sore, but I'm pushing through. My car isn't as bad as 1st thought so that is also good news. I thought I was going to have a massive break down after the wreck because I'm closing on my house this weekend and we have the walkthrough this Monday and I'm moving next Friday. Anyone who wants to help unpack boxes on Super Bowl Sunday, please email me! :)
karen
Ace,
Having a bent towards photo journalism, who has complained about Jim Haywood being in a service recording besides Steve Gaines himself? I don't believe you are being truthful. If so, WHO. I've seen him only sit in the service quietly, peaceful, not disrupting anyone. Have you ever seen him video taping the service before? I believe earlier this month was the first time. I'm really curious about these comments you throw out all of the time with nothing to back them up. You claim you only want truth but you continue to be less than truthful with your comments.
DanRather,
Having a bent towards photo journalism, who has complained about Jim Haywood being in a service recording besides Steve Gaines himself?
Me.
I don't believe you are being truthful. If so, WHO.
Again, me.
I'm really curious about these comments you throw out all of the time with nothing to back them up.
Are you happy now? :)
Ace, the 11:00 service is NOT safe for those who don't want to be on camera. When film is edited for the TV broadcast, they apparently use footage from both services. They may edit you out if you're in the 9:30 service picking your nose, but put someone else in from the 11 a.m. service who isn't. About the only thing they haven't caught me doing is sleeping. If I am in the choir, they invariably put the camera on me when I forget the words.
Bloggers,
ACE OFTEN posts for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, ACE's sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding ACE, ACE will continue to play that game. If you ignore ACE, then ACE will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into their hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking the BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
Karen, I'm so glad you're better. I've been praying for you ever since I heard. :)
MaybeJustMaybe,
When film is edited for the TV broadcast, they apparently use footage from both services. They may edit you out if you're in the 9:30 service picking your nose, but put someone else in from the 11 a.m. service who isn't.
They use footage from the choir and orchestra from both services. However, crowd shots and shots of people reading their Bibles, and etc. come from the 9:30 service alone, if I am not mistaken.
For the weekend, please read the next six chapters of Exodus.
Karen, sorry about the car wreck. God bless you for saving a seat for Trollcates.
Sister Gremillion, beautiful post!
Trollcates, 2006Huldah, David Brown:
Trollcates... if people witness to you, just email what they said to me. I'll take care of it. Just tell them that Bible-in-a-year will respond in your place later. Salvation issues only. Not other texts.
You have already persuaded me that earlier in your life you completely surrendered to Jesus Christ. (Correct me if I am wrong about that).
People just need to rejoice that you are here. It is a great joy to have a sheep return home. I know you are still very confused and saying stuff that goes against the Bible. You should stop doing that, and focus on your reason for being here. Just give it some time. You'll be okay if you just stick with us. Keep coming to church as often as possible. Keep an open mind, open heart. Follow along with the Bible study every day.
2) 2006Huldah, "Dee"
You said...
I would be saying things like, "Lord, I know You are a jealous God, and I know those Iraqi Muslims face Mecca and pray 5 times a day. But, Lord, I will be in here MORE than 5 times a day--without ceasing I will pray-- and I will KNOW that I don't need to face any direction for You to hear me and help me. THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BUT YOU. HALLELUJAH! I love You, Lord Jesus. I praise You, Lord Jesus."
This is awesome! I used to say this exact thing on the Muslim website, and they really liked it.
And thanks for agreeing to take off the sabbath. And I'm going to take your suggestion and take off both Sunday ...and... the sabbath. Great idea!
3) David Brown,
Trust God. Obey God's laws. He will bless what you are doing. Test him. If you would be a champion of God's laws then you must also be obedient to them. We can't pick and choose. Certainly not out of "the top ten."
In my heart, I have forgiven my brothers who did what they did to me; it has never been made public, and I will not discuss it here. It is in the past. The name "Joseph" has a great deal of meaning to me. Just see my profile.
My goal in coming here is to help my brothers and sisters in Christ to worship God and fulfill the Great Commission.
A prayerful sabbath tomorrow will do more for all of the children of God than coming on here and watching people fight with name stealers and trolls.
Always a pleasure to speak with you,
Joseph
(off until Monday)
From now on when I go to a service, I'll be recorder ready. I encourage everyone to feel free to take video, audio, and any other type of recording device into THEIR church anytime they want. Just be careful to be discreet and not disrupt the service in any way. Jim Barnwell (ace and ace jr.) will just have to complain.
Perhaps it would be a good idea when the cameral pans the crowd to just take your bulletin and hold it up in front of your face so they can't see you. This might be a good silent protest that wouldn't disrupt the service. How would it look for 100's of people to have their face covered with a bulliten when the camera scans the audience?
Joseph,
I'm not really offended, so no need to intervene--but thanks for the offer; I just don't want anyone to think that my contempt for some things said on this blog is directed towards Christians, en mass (pun intended), nor even to those stating them.
I suppose it is a matter of eternity for those soul winners, so I try to be appreciative of the kind gesture, while being truthful of my purpose here to y'all, and truthful to my own faith, in action.
blessings,
David
FOLKS - ATTENTION! Do not listen to anything that Ace says. He is getting paid to monitor these forums and report back to Steve Gaines.
I know EXACTLY who Ace is and while I won't publicly post his name for his privacy, email me at thetruthaboutace@yahoo.com and I will tell you who he is!!!
MEANWHILE, Take a poll I made:
Do you want Ace to leave this forum?
http://poll.pollcode.com/RXj
ACE - take a hint from the poll results and LEAVE
Letthetruthbeknown -- Poll results do not indicate that people want Ace to leave.
It's really sad to see the Christian love (I mean...lack of it) from you guys sometimes.
They're asking you not to record and yet you're posting for everyone to take a recorder? That is so sad. Nothing much more can be said about that.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
DanRather Said
Perhaps it would be a good idea when the cameral pans the crowd to just take your bulletin and hold it up in front of your face so they can't see you. This might be a good silent protest that wouldn't disrupt the service. How would it look for 100's of people to have their face covered with a bulliten when the camera scans the audience?
Thanks for the laugh...That is so funny but a good thought....I can just see it now....
MaybeJustMaybe,
That guy lives in his own little world. He claims to know who I am, while in reality he doesn't. Just another desperate person trying to get rid of me. Regardless of the poll results, I'm staying because I really don't think that poll says anything about me...though it is nice to see that I have the lead! ;)
It's really sad to see the pot call the kettle black.
Why would the leadership not want any recording of words spoken in church? We are the church. What could possibly be said or done that we wouldn't want recorded? If the words and actions can't be recorded, they probably don't need to be said or done.
From the WREG website:
Catholic Diocese of Charleston sets aside $12M to settle sex abuse claims
CHARLESTON, S.C. The Roman Catholic Diocese of Charleston, South Carolina, has announced it has agreed to settle child sex abuse claims and has designated as much as 12 (m) million dollars for damages.
An attorney representing possible victims says the class-action settlement between the diocese and attorneys representing possible victims has been given initial approval by a judge.
It is not clear how many victims there are. In 2004, diocese officials said there had been 45 credible abuse allegations in the state between 1950 and 2002 against 21 priests, one deacon and one deacon candidate. The attorney says recent negotiations revealed allegations against at least 26 priests.
DanRather,
Why would the leadership not want any recording of words spoken in church?
Because what is being spoken are church matters, private matters, family matters. Why would anyone else that doesn't go to Bellevue need to know about the reports, and etc. Jim Haywood puts them up on his site for the entire world to listen to. You just don't do that....again, it should stay within the church family.
But Mr. Haywood doesn't like keeping it private within the church...He cares about himself only. He would rather record it and then put it on his website to gain 10,000 visitors so he can make a 50 point sized font in blinking red, "Over 10,000 visitors yesterday!!!"
Go ask him about that incident, it's not about Bellevue to him...it's about all the attention he's been getting....he's loving it and wants to record the service for her personal gain.
Rachel's story caused many questions to pass through my heart and mind. I suppose that the most heart breaking would have to be, "Why?"
Why?
Why would any pastor believe that he has the authority to grant forgiveness for a sin that was not committed against them?
Why?
Why would anyone that has knowledge of such a heinous act not report it immediately?
Why?
Why would anyone believe that they were capable of keeping a perpetrator of such acts under their control?
Why?
Why would anyone believe that it couldn’t happen again under their watchful eye?
Why?
Why would anyone not allow the proper authorities to handle something of this magnitude?
Why?
Why would protecting the pride of a perpetrator be more highly valued than healing the pain of a victim and the thwarting the potential for more victims?
Why do leaders in a church believe that quietly silencing these issues protects the reputation of the church?
Why? Why? Why?
Why can’t the church value the little ones that have been entrusted to their care and honor that trust with commitment and truth?
Why?
The best way to hide the facts from the masses is to keep it silent from the masses. The fewer people know the truth, the easier it is to get by with wrongdoing. The more confusion you can stir up, the easier it is to not understand the facts. We have a few on this blog that love to stir up confusion and twist truth. Bellevue has operated in secrecy far too long and Steve Gaines and his leadership team need to start being transparent. In today's world of hightech, it's harder to get away with things. I happen to know TV and cameras have been used oftene to expose the wrongdoing of leaders. When people can hear and see things with their own eyes, it's much harder to twist and deceive.
A good example would be the farewell speech made in Gardendale caught on tape, the famous informaional meeting in September, followed by the Union City tape. Words caught on tape are powerful. You can't run from that.
piglet,
There's an old saying, 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. The saying is NOT true. There are a lot of people coming to this blog and spreading yeast. Just because someone stops by and slaps Rick Warren around and demands punishment for sin, they ARE NOT our friend. We must not let them influence us!
God's attributes cannot be separated. His love cannot act apart from His holiness, and His grace is not extended apart from His righteous anger. As humans, our moods come and go. Not so with the Lord. He is eternal, unchanging. I get a good laugh when I hear someone claim they have the 'righteous, sinless anger of God'. Give them a day to cool off, and where does that anger go?
Human anger is just like human forgiveness. Apart from God, there's nothing eternal about either. Human anger does not bring forth the righteousness of God, and human forgiveness has never resulted in true repentance. Maybe that's what went wrong on 9/24.
"Why would anyone else that doesn't go to Bellevue need to know about the reports, and etc."
Because Bellevue sort of dropped the ball for the last 17 years; it's time for some community-wide intervention.
I'll be there with bells on.
Not an excuse by any means, but an observation. Most of us cannot in our wildest imaginations conceive of the horrors of sexual abuse, and the idea that it happens at the hands of a minister is beyond our comprehension. If nothing else of true and lasting value were to come from any of the current situation at Bellevue, I think we have all collectively lost our innocence on this subject. If together we begin to advocate and support victims of this horrid sin, and if we begin thinking "like victims," that will be part of Romans 8:28 being accomplished. But most of us can't think like victims because we haven't ever been there. May God heal those who have, and may He use us as instruments of that healing in whatever way He deems appropriate.
danrather saked:
Why would the leadership not want any recording of words spoken in church?
Dan, they have alreadys said it could be very detailed and warned about bringing children to the meeting. Maybe the victims will not want it recorded if it is detailed like they said, and I really think there are bigger things to worry about than if the meeting is going to be reported.
Sorry, but it has been a long day and for all the times I have been accused of causing strife on here for wanting a straight, clear, first hand answer, to see a post like that makes me think that it was only something else to complain or argue about.
But that's just the way I see it.
Ace,
Why do you continue to badger Jim Haywood? Why do you attack him here? How are your responses an example to other Christians? You whine about others and then you attack Jim. It is no wonder why you have been so sad today. You aren't sure which role to play. Please try to be kinder.
BBCRef,
Why do you continue to badger Jim Haywood? Why do you attack him here?
I am not attacking him. I am just posting about what his motives are. Everything I posted is true. Don't believe me? Email him at info@savingbellevue.com and he will verify it....or he'll ignore your email.
You whine about others and then you attack Jim.
I'm not whining, I'm not attacking anyone.
It is no wonder why you have been so sad today. You aren't sure which role to play.
Huh? What is this suppose to mean? There is a fake 'ace' posting. Please get your facts staight before you accuse me of playing different roles (or whatever else it was that you implied).
Please try to be kinder.
Thank you for your opinion in your post.
hope patterson said
Human anger is just like human forgiveness. Apart from God, there's nothing eternal about either. Human anger does not bring forth the righteousness of God, and human forgiveness has never resulted in true repentance. Maybe that's what went wrong on 9/24.
Piglet says:
I may be missing your point here.
Forgiveness is not what brings about repentance. I believe that is the job of the Holy Spirit.
My point is that many people have forgiven SG but have not seen a change in his attitude.
He still does not obey God's law in Matt. 18, still thumbs his nose at governmental laws,and ignores the puny set of bylaws that we DO have by refusing business meetings and transparency.
His actions and attitudes have brought shame on our church and the Lord. Anything can be forgiven - murder, child rape, you name it - but that does not mean he is fit to lead Bellevue.
"Email him at nfo@savingbellevue.com and he will verify it....or he'll ignore your email."
So, ask him and he'll tell you...or he won't.
Thank you...thank you very much.
mjm,
A lot of good can come from this situation. While I wouldn't be so bold as James Sundquist and call it a 'gift from God', a lot of healing can come from it.
A CA article a couple of weeks ago stated something along the lines of darkness flourishing in secrecy. Yet how many of the victims of abuse have kept their suffering secret out of fear? Those wounds will never heal unless the victims of the crime are able to come forward without shame.
If any good can come from this, it's that. Abused children have done nothing wrong, but the abusers are often authority figures who teach the children over time that 'there are some things we don't talk about'.
Pray for the chuch, definitely. Pray for the pastor and the congregation. But don't forget to pray for the children who are growing up all around us with a dark secret they're afraid to bring into the open.
piglet,
I didn't phrase my statement very well. The Bible speaks of several things leading to repentance, but let me try again.
2 Cor 7:10 says "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death."
Here are 2 kinds of sorrow, one higher than the other. One worldly, one godly. One leads to salvation, the other to death (separation).
Godly sorrow comes from a sincere remorse after violating God's will. Worldly sorrow comes from earthly consequences.
Godly sorrow can result from conviction of the Spirit, but ultimately it's the response of a pure heart that loves the Lord. The end result is a desire to restore a right relationship with God, which will ultimately result in reconciliation with anyone else who was offended.
Worldly sorrow results from losing a human indulgence, or losing status. It seeks forgiveness from men, not God.
So whenever someone asks me to forgive them, I have to ask myself a question. Are they sorry they offended the Lord, or are they sorry that they got caught?
That's what we should ask Sunday night.
This letter was dated Jan. 4, 2007 (approx 2 weeks after Gaines gave the 'moral failure' announcement to BBC)
"The Children's Facility Renovation Committee, chaired by Mark McDaniel, has been charged with the responsibility of overseeing the renovation and design of the Preschool and Children's areas of the church. As part of this process, they have sought to evaluate and upgrade security."
Mark McDaniel is the lawyer for a man accused child pornography and in the Commercial Appeal states he will represent his client to his best ability (my remembrance of the article not the exact wording)
I do not in any way want to distract from the need to pray and act on behalf of all victims of child sexual abuse...that is first and formost...
Someone posted a link to the Commercial Appeal article. Will you please post it again?
In June S Gaines was told of a ministers 'moral failure', he ignored this, then had a man who represents a man who is accused child pornography to be involved with child security during that same summer of 2006. Gaines keeps the secret from BBC until forced to tell us in Dec. 2006,only then puts the minister on paid leave and then sends out a letter to parents Jan. 4., the minister is kept on paid leave until Jan. 22.
This sounds unbelieveable...
I am praying for discernment, wisdom, and strength at a time I feel so much pain for Christ's Church...
We must take positive action to protect the children whenever and wheverever we possibly can.
We must make smooth the paths of the victims carrying their burdens as if our own...
Every day the sun rises and sets I pray for someone/everyone who is/was a victim of child sexual abuse.
Please a least write letters to BBC deacons, Sunday School teachers, officers, Steve Gaines, SBC to anyone that is in a position to make straight the path for truth to come out, for children to be safe, for victims and their family/friends to have healing, for BBC to have healing...Do this in love and pray over every word and the person you mail it to...Please just do it...
Dee, Reading your testimony about prayer made me cry and I am not a crier! I kept thinking of Job who said, "Though HE slay me, I will love Him"
Blessed be HIS Name. Your son is so blessed to have a prayer warrior as a mom.
Karen wrote:
"If you believe the half truths (also known as lies), the moral failure (also called sin) and the apologies coming from the pulpit, I now know how people will be deceived by the anti-Christ."
Bingo. It starts with ignorning the very clear precepts of scripture in the name of forgiveness and 'moving on'. It starts with believing a watered down half gospel where we can dumb down sin.
We expect Satan to look evil. We expect evil to look evil but the scriptures describe him also as the angel of light and deceivers as looking like sheep when they are really wolves. It also tells us that we will call evil good and good evil. Any of this sounding familiar?
piglet,
I completely forgot to make my point!
No amount of human forgiveness is ever going to change anyone. Don't expect it to.
esther,
It also tells us that we will call evil good and good evil.
Is that really in the Bible?
hope,
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Memphis said...
danrather saked:
Why would the leadership not want any recording of words spoken in church?
Dan, they have alreadys said it could be very detailed and warned about bringing children to the meeting. Maybe the victims will not want it recorded if it is detailed like they said, and I really think there are bigger things to worry about than if the meeting is going to be reported.
Memphis,
Who said anything about Sunday night? I'm talking about two weeks ago and going forward. Do you really think I've been writing about Sunday night? I don't even know what is going to be said. I'm not expecting anything out of line to be said Sunday night. I don't think Jim Barnwell was just limiting recording to this coming Sunday night. You must be a bit up tight this afternoon. Just calm down and take a deep breath.
DanRather,
I understood you to be talking about Sunday night, as well, so it just wasn't Memphis.
You two guys are joined at the hip.
Thanks socwork.
Like it or not, the Christian community is watching to see how Bellevue handles this situation. This is an opportunity to emanate a path by refusing to hide the truth in the shadows of secrecy.
This point in time may well be a deciding moment in the Southern Baptist Convention that defines how seriously this concern will be dealt with in the future. Every dark corner should be illuminated and every dark deed revealed.
There is absolutely no room for reasoning or excuses. The guilty must own and acknowledge their guilt. Bellevue cannot address this challenge with a weak, indifferent response. The measure must be set at a level of zero tolerance.
Hey Trollcakes,
I hope to get to meet you this weekend, too. I will know who you are if you are with Karen on sunday night.
:)
knower,
Have you seen the report AFTER the personell committee finished rewriting it?
Does SG come out with no fault? Will the report be a green light to other pastors who choose to hide pedophiles in the future?
knower,
how do you know?
Does it clear dr. R?
ok, knower,
Now i know you are a fake because i know for a fact that the report clears dr. r....
And he DID need to be cleared, because SG led people to believe that AR knew about PW. When Mrs. R. called the church to ask that her husband's name be cleared, they refused to do so, so she had to go on the mike fleming show to clear her husband's name.
You are a fake.
Danrather,
you forgot about me!!! I thought you were referring to Sunday night as well...
keynoteseeker said...
"The Children's Facility Renovation Committee, chaired by Mark McDaniel, has been charged with the responsibility of overseeing the renovation and design of the Preschool and Children's areas of the church. As part of this process, they have sought to evaluate and upgrade security."
Mark McDaniel is the lawyer for a man accused child pornography and in the Commercial Appeal states he will represent his client to his best ability (my remembrance of the article not the exact wording)
Someone posted a link to the Commercial Appeal article. Will you please post it again?
----------------------------
Lawyer indicted for child porn
By Lawrence Buser
Contact
November 30, 2006
A longtime Memphis lawyer and writer who at one time represented Elvis Presley has been indicted on federal child pornography charges.
D. Beecher Smith II, 57, is charged with possession and receipt of child pornography in interstate commerce by means of a computer.
Advertisement
He was arrested Wednesday morning at his office by federal authorities and made an initial appearance in the afternoon before U.S. Magistrate Judge James Allen, who released Smith on his own recognizance.
Smith will be arraigned before Allen on Dec. 13. The case has been assigned to U.S. Dist. Judge Bernice Donald.
The six-count indictment says that between Dec. 11, 2004, and Jan. 31, 2005, Smith received by computer images of minors engaged in sexually explicit acts on at least six occasions.
The charges carry punishment of up to 20 years in prison and fines of up to $500,000.
His attorney returned a telephone message left for Smith Wednesday.
"Obviously I can't comment on anything my client would say, but he's obviously disturbed by the return of an indictment against him, as I expect anyone would be under these circumstances," said attorney Mark McDaniel. "The charges are serious charges, and I'll do everything within my abilities to address them in a manner that will best serve the interest of my client." [err... what about the interest of the children Mr. McDaniel? Oh yeah, they don't pay as well as sickos!]
Smith, who has been in practice since 1974, was Elvis Presley's attorney during the last year of the King's life, was involved in handling his estate and composed a poem titled ''Lost Legacy'' as a tribute to his client.
He also has published several books, science fiction stories and numerous works of poetry.
Smith is a past president and past poet laureate of the Poetry Society of Tennessee. In 1996 he won the 1996 Darrell Award for Best Short Story for ''Don't Look Back,'' published in the magazine Medusa's Hairdo, and the 1997 award for ''The Shadow People,'' published in Freezer Burn.
In another indictment, authorities here said restaurant manager Mirko Bekic, 45, of Naples, Fla., also was charged for allegedly transporting child pornography in interstate commerce by means of a computer.
The cases, part of Project Safe Childhood, were investigated by agencies of the Memphis Crimes Against Children Task Force which include the FBI, ICE, Shelby County Sheriff's Office, and Memphis Police Departmen
[Now that's the guy I want in charge of childrens safety! A guy that defends child porn!]
Hope Patterson
I think I understand your second post a lot better. Thanks.
bin,
Sounds a bit sleezy, to say the least.
Hope Patterson said
No amount of human forgiveness is ever going to change anyone. Don't expect it to.
Piglet says:
I totally agree. I would not expect forgiveness to change SG because only the Holy Spirit can do that.
However, if forgiveness is given repeatedly and change is not evident, TRUST is gone.
A pastor should be above reproach, not sinless, but quick to deal with his own sin, having a pattern of righteousness and not unrighteousness.
I do not see this in SG. I do not trust him to be our shepherd.
knower,
Does the report mention other incidents of molestation commited by BBC staff, whether by PW or anyone else?
Does it explain why they did not follow the church guidelines for these kinds of matters?
Hope Patterson said...
esther,
It also tells us that we will call evil good and good evil.
Is that really in the Bible?
6:15 PM, January 26, 2007
I can't find where it says "we will call evil good and good evil".
But I did find this:
Isaiah 5:19-21 ((NIV)
19 to those who say, "Let God hurry,
let him hasten his work
so we may see it.
Let it approach,
let the plan of the Holy One of Israel come,
so we may know it."
20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.
Bin is ready to be corrected if I missed a verse Esther quoted.
FYI, we'll be enjoying "The Majesty And Glory Of Your Name" in the morning service this Sunday.
And perhaps those who visit this forum, regardless of viewpoint, might gather under the chandelier around 6:15 p.m. for the evening service?
--Mike
Knower & BBC Employee,
You are one and the same.
Don't be the last kid on your block to own one of these.
Don't miss another word.
This compact, take anywhere voice recorder features over 33 hours of continuous recording time and a large LCD that keeps you up to date on recording status, battery life and more. File management and other options are a cinch with the easy-to-use menu. Voice activation and timer recording give you the flexibility to just sit back and relax.
[Note: Handy for those that are (1) a loser; (2) just plain ignorant; (3) don't understand. Perfect for those that are all three like me!]
bin,
Looks like a handy device. Do they also make one that erases obnoxious bloggers.
terrysmith said...
"Response: Great proof, you SLANDERED Mac Brunson of First Baptist Church. The book you mentioned was published in 2002. Four years before Mac Brunson got their."
Actually I am holding this book, "Transitioning-Leading Your Church through Change" in my hands right now. I don't know what book you might have looked in...the book I make reference to was copyrighted in 1999 by Dan Southerland and first published in 2000 by Zondervan, another Rupert Murdoch enterprise.
Your statement, ‘four years before Mac Brunson got there’ is irrelevant. What is relevant is he was already purpose driven when he was called as pastor to Jacksonville. I do not know when Jacksonville assumed the purpose driven mode, but it is my understanding it was already in place well before Mac Brunson arrived. Please refer to my post about this and listen to the link provided to listen to Mrs. Betty Erwin. Lister to her story. She will tell you all about it. Please note that her story was told March 1, 2005…well before Mac Brunson left Dallas. He was her pastor at the time. He assumed the pastor position in Jacksonville, Florida, early in 2006. I believe it was April 9, 2006; not positive. Betty Erwin stands in the gap for Jesus Christ. I am pleased to be in the Body of Christ along with her.
Ima
tim,
Good detective work. 189409599 says it all.
Knower of all,
Please!Are you 12??If you are trying to make SG look better to those of us that don't trust ministers who cover for a child molestor....not doing so well.....Be crude to the right people,please!
Tim said...
Charlie Fox,
Thanks. This is now the third or fourth time that someone has tried to drag my kids into this. Which is not a real problem, I feel certain that there are some immature kids and more than a few immature adults that post.
Reply:
Brother,
Rather than commenting, I'll just let you read between my lines. Know, what I mean, Vern?
blink07 said...
"Does anyone understand what a purpose driven church is or a seeker sensitive or seeker driven or an emergent church."
I would be interested in learning your description is? Please...
Knower of all said...
church,
No, there were not any other employees that are being accused of doing anything.
Gaines already apologized for not bringing it up right away. There was a big misunderstanding, and he took action when he knew what he thought was not the truth.
Is everybody here just ignorant and doesn't understand that or is it just that nobody can forgive him?
8:08 PM, January 26, 2007
Your wording is strange to say the least.
Are you saying no other employee has ever been accused of molestation or no other employee is implicated for molestation in the report? There is a big difference.
I will be interested to hear what the misunderstanding was. I don't think anyone misunderstood anything. I believe it was all very clear. JMO
We aren't as ignorant as so many wish we were.
I'll ask this part again...does the report explain why the church did not follow preexisting guidelines for handling child sexual predators? I know we've had them for several years.
imaresistor
said: I do not know when Jacksonville assumed the purpose driven mode, but it is my understanding it was already in place well before Mac Brunson arrived.
response: Now Dr. Vines is the bad guy. Do you ever stop? By the way Dr. Vines was president of the SBC. Why are you still baptist. Seeker sensitive is equivalent of eeevannngelllical.
Ima, please give me 3 names of pastors below the age of 40, that you APPROVE of, in your tiny world.
Blink wrote:"Does anyone understand what a purpose driven church is or a seeker sensitive or seeker driven or an emergent church. Read a little and you will know that the comments that are being made are being so intertwined but the reality is they are all so different in there emphasis and methodology. "
Blink, if you know what the 'Emergent Church" is except for a 'conversation' that goes in circles, please by all means let me know. Some of the greatest theological minds cannot figure it out. D.A. Carson wrote a great book about it trying to figure it out. He just came up with more questions.
Dear MJM and Hope: I want to thank both of you for your posts earlier tonight. MJM as victim, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Both of you have helped some victims tonight and you will never know how much your posts means to them.
We ALL must work to creating an environment where a victim can feel safe, tell their story, be believed and loved on. That means so much to us.
If I did not have the loving wife I had in 1996, I would still be carrying my secret. A lot of you give me praise for what I do but I don't deserve it. My dear Elizabeth had to live with me too many years with me hiding my secret. In my eyes she is the hero. I hope to meet many of you Sunday night and I will be glad to introduce you to my hero.
I love you all and thanks once again to mjm and hope. May God bless you.
David Brown
SNAP Coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
blink07 said: for anyone who knows Jerry Vines would realize the funniest comment made all night is that Jerry Vines took FBCJAX to a Purpose Driven Seeker Sensitive model. Nothing could be further from the truth...He always was fighting against it...I will be a Ruth's Chris steak to anyone who has ever seen Jerry Vines out of cuff links and a tie! In fact a classic moment in JV preaching career was when he mocked PDL and SS movements by dancing across the stage at FBCJAX mocking interpretive dance. Get your facts straight!
Ima - what is your response to that? You have accused a great pastor of something you know nothing about. SHAME ON YOU, GOSSIPER.
ilmc,
Tim pointed out earlier that bbc employee & knower of all are one in the same, with blog profile #189409599.
Charlie,
I overlooked Tim's post. Thanks for pointing that out.
Carsons book is quite relevant to the discussion because it most certainly has not been defined except for the emergents to admit they need to define it!
Dig deep enough into ANY mega in this country and I can assure you there are the 'emergent' types. Usually to be found among the 20 somethings. They love Don Miller and Rob Bell.
Emergent is most defintely starting to infiltrate the SBC. Take a look at some of their speaking engagements and see how many Baptist Churches appear on the list.
This discussion is off topic. Want to take it somewhere else? I could provide you with some resources.
ilmc,
MY pleasure!!
ace said...
NBBCOF,
Question: When will they refrain from making video recordings of the congregation during worship services? I would think it would be very distracting to those worshippers sitting near the front to have cameras trained on them while they're trying to concentrate on... say, worship.
Their purpose isn't to disrupt, unlike the intentions of other people. Have they ever gotten any complaints about their video shots that they get? No... Have they ever got complaints about Mr. Haywood's video shots? Yes...
And if you don't want to be on camera, go to the 11 o clock service and you'll be safe.
4:08 PM, January 26, 2007
--------
No Big, but actually the 11am music is recorded as well. It even gets aired instead or in addition to the 930 music from time to time.
The 11am sermon is merely imag.
Andrew
blink wrote: "The tricky thing is that it is always changing becuase culture is always changing...Are we even in Post-Modern culture anymore...not according to some"
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. What does 'culture' have to do with the truth of the gospel? I get so sick of this talk about 'culture' and being 'relevant'. It is a lie from the pit of hell. And I am not talking about wearing a burqua when in the ME. That is not what the seekers and emergents are talking about. They have to change the gospel message to make it more palitable to the unbeliever. They conveniently leave out the hard parts. That is the whole point.
BTW: We are 'post-Christian' :o)
Thank you bin wonderin for the link 8-)
Been lurking here for a long time but now I have a question about recording the service.
The church is made up of members who select the leaders.Yet the very members of this church are not allowed to record the leader that they voted in, am I missing something here?
One last question how is it disrupting the service if I have a voice recorder in my pocket?
blink07 and terrysmith,
Have you listened to Betty Erwin yet?
The responses are coming in too fast from the two of you to respond to all of them by bedtime. So you'll just have to be content with this response. Have I typed out the word tonight "Jerry Vines"? Go back and read my posts and answer this to yourselves. You don't have to come back on this blog and answer me. I already know the answer. Here is what I said, "I do not know when Jacksonville assumed the purpose driven mode, but it is my understanding it was already in place well before Mac Brunson arrived." I said plainly I did not know when it was put in place. And note the word was 'mode'?
One of you is asking a lot of questions, and apparently you seem to already know all the answers? The other one is calling me names? And one of you is pleading for intelligent conversation? Read your posts.
If you want to know what the terms are blink, there is a lot of information out there. You can start by going to Savingbellevue.com. Jim Haywood has included a multitude of information on his site on this subject. Just what he has alone will keep you reading for a long, long time.
Danrather, Yes I thought you were talking about the Sunday night meeting when the report was going to be presented.
notabbcidol said...
Been lurking here for a long time but now I have a question about recording the service.
The church is made up of members who select the leaders.Yet the very members of this church are not allowed to record the leader that they voted in, am I missing something here?
One last question how is it disrupting the service if I have a voice recorder in my pocket?
10:17 PM, January 26, 2007
It is not disruptive.
Furthermore they have no authority under the bylaws to prohibit, forbid or ask any member to refrain from bringing a digital recorder in or out of their pocket. Better to hide it though so the security guys don't confiscate it.
Ignore what they say and exercise your membership rights.
danrather said:
You two guys are joined at the hip.
I do not even know who he is!
The Bible says to submit to the authority that is over you unless you are asked to do something that goes against God's word.
I don't think that recording the service goes against God's word so I would think that you should feel obligated to submit to this rule whether you like it or not.
Ima,
I listened to Betty Irwin. And here is what I heard.
The older women (her words)in the church are upset over tearing down buildings built in the 1950's to make room for a more modern building.
She was raised on Dr. Criswell and likes only his preaching and no one else.
Bepatient said...
The Bible says to submit to the authority that is over you unless you are asked to do something that goes against God's word.
The bylaws are the authority over Dr. Gaines yet he refuses to submit to them. When will he submit to the authority over him?
Even if you feel he is ignoring the authority over him, how does that make it okay for you to do it?
blink07 said...
“ima,
If JV did not put it into place then who did BEFORE MB got the JAX? There is no one else unless you go back to Homer Lindsey Jr and then Homer Lindsey Sr and this takes you back to the first half of the 1900's...when and who in your opinion "put it place"? Simple question.
As far as defining terms...I am not saying you do not know what they mean or anyone else for that matter but they are being thrown around in such a way referring to aspects of church life, polity and methodology that has nothing to do with these models.”
RESPONSE:
Simple answer : Read my post again. I really don’t think it is in the best interest of this blog to keep going over and over this one issue on JV. I have already answered your question. I will tell you this: I have information from some members from this church in question and they informed me that the PD mode was in place before MB came. I did not pressure them like you are doing me for more information. I cannot supply you with information that I do not have myself. I do not have an opinion as to who put it in place and will not speculate on when it happened or when it did not happen, whether it was the earlier part of the twentieth century or the latter half.
Until the moderator of this forum tells me I cannot discuss these issues any longer, I suspect I will continue to be a part of this forum. Until she informs me that I am loosely throwing terms around, I may even continue to throw them around. I am sure you will correct me. I just hope we can do it in a more Christ like manner.
be patient said
Even if you feel he is ignoring the authority over him, how does that make it okay for you to do it?
Piglet says:
I'm glad to hear you say this. For so long on this blog many have insisted that Dr. Gaines not be held responsible for his sin because of our own sin.
I'm glad you believe all of us are responsible for our own sin . After all, the standard for us should be Jesus, not eachother.
terry smith,
Thank you for listening to the audio of Betty Erwin and sharing your view with me. That is what I asked you to do and I appreciate it. Even if you did get a half dozen from it and I got six.
G'nite...
Ima said: I cannot supply you with information that I do not have myself.
response - gossip, quit painting the the bride of Christ in Jax. in a negative light.
ima said: I do not have an opinion as to who put it in place
response: yes you do, they have only had three pastors. One of them was the SBC president.
I have never said that he is not accountable for his own sin- I do disagree with much of the way this has been handled, but that is beside the point.
But as I have said many many times and as we all learned in elementary school....
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Bepatient said...
The Bible says to submit to the authority that is over you unless you are asked to do something that goes against God's word.
I don't think that recording the service goes against God's word so I would think that you should feel obligated to submit to this rule whether you like it or not.
10:51 PM, January 26, 2007
-----
The church leadership has made it clear on mulitiple occasions by multiple people that if we don't like the plan, decisions, the music or anything else that they would prefer that we leave.
We'll guess what, I'm not going to obey that suggestion or request either.
Andrew
Greetings Everyone,
I read this today and wanted to share it with you:
"Character is always lost when a high ideal is sacrificied on the altar of conformity and popularity."
Charles Spurgeon, 1834-1892, British Baptist Preacher - known to some as "The Prince of Preachers"
There is a difference between a comment made by an individual(s) and what we are talking about. This is an actual "rule" the church leadership has decided to enforce, much like 'don't bring your dog to the 4th of July picnic' and 'you must have a beeper or ticket to pick up your child'.
Andrew, just curious, but why would you want to record the service?
The individuals were deacons, senior pastor and staff.
They are in authority and significant people in the organization. They meant what they said. They did not present an option. They communicated their will and instruction.
Call it what you will. There is no difference in their intent or objective.
Andrew
There are all sorts of reasons to document an event.
I think it's fair to say that in this environment it's certainly not a pointless activity.
Wouldn't you agree?
Andrew
Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
1st John 4:7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
Well, that is between you and God, but I think you can probably see the difference and are just not willing to admit it- because individuals, no matter their position are just speaking for themselves. This is choice that has been made by the leadership as a whole.
That is like saying that if a deacon says you should buy purple shoes (just because he feels that way) it is a church mandate, and you know good and well that it is not.
I have no plans to record it if that s what you are asking me.
1st John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Andrew
I do think we are fortunate to have Gaines' first statement regarding PW on video tape.
It was a "moral Failure" with a FAMILY MEMBER that has not been resolved.
If he tries to say it was something different, atleast we have a record of his statement to go back to and say "this doesn't wash".
A sad commetary on the state of our church...
Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Commentary by John Wesley:
They that exercise the most arbitrary authority over them, have from their flatterers the vain title of benefactors.
One has to admit that the leadership has a lot of nerve to be enforcing a lot of rules when they ignore scriptual priciples,our bylaws and the law of the land.
1st Peter 5:1 ¶ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
andrew said:
"I think it's fair to say that in this environment it's certainly not a pointless activity.
Wouldn't you agree?"
No, if you really believe that you are doing God's work and it has been made clear that you are violating the authority that God has said is over you then I cannot agree.
If part of God's plan is for Steve Gaines to resign, etc., He can do it without you disobeying the Word of God.
Post a Comment