In this thread, rather than discussing PW or his family or what he might or might not have done, please concentrate on what the administration at Bellevue now seems to be doing (or not doing) about the situation.
Kevin Rardin, Assistant Shelby County D.A., is a regular reader of this forum and saw this post by "informedatbbc" last night, prompting him to call David Brown to dispute the assertion by two BBC staff members that there was no external investigation under way. Mr. Rardin confirmed that there is definitely an ongoing investigation being conducted by the Shelby County D.A.'s office, and Mr. Brown received this letter from the Tennessee Department of Children's Services dated December 24th stating that agency is also conducting an investigation. This is the postmarked envelope (personal information omitted) it came in.
I have reposted David Brown's comments from last night here, along with some from other posters in the first comment in this thread. Mr. Rardin informed David Brown that the administration at Bellevue is refusing to cooperate with his office or the Tennessee DCS in their investigation.
Everyone needs to call the church office at 901-347-2000 and politely ask these questions:
1. Why did Mark Dougharty and Jamie Fish state that there is no external investigation taking place?
2. Why did Mark Dougharty state to someone back in December that he'd been "interrogated" about the PW situation for two hours the previous day? (He didn't specify by whom.)
3. Why aren't all members of the church administration fully cooperating with the agencies which we know for a fact are conducting these investigations?
Finally, please call the D.A.'s office and DCS if you have any information relating to this case. If you have ever been counseled by Paul Williams and have any concerns whatsoever about the nature of the questions you were asked or anything else about your encounters with him, please do the following:
1. Call the church office and politely but firmly demand they release the file from your counseling session(s) to you or your designated representative.
2. Call the officials listed below, regardless of how minor or inconsequential your concerns may seem to the case at hand. They need to hear whatever information you can give them and will decide for themselves if it's relevant or not. Please do not call their offices simply to complain about Bellevue administrators not cooperating. That's not news to them!
Kevin Rardin is the Shelby County Assistant District Attorney and can be reached at 901-888-4300 or 901-545-5935.
Larry Griffin is with the regional office of the State of Tennessee Department of Child Protective Services (DCS) and can be reached at 901-258-0268.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
637 comments:
1 – 200 of 637 Newer› Newest»Reposted from two threads back:
allofgrace said...
Media reports that DCS is investigating
Jim Barnwell states to media that he is not aware of a DCS investigation, but BBC will cooperate if one is launched.
David Brown confirms that said external investigation is taking place.
Jamie Fish and Mark Dougharty both say there is no external investigation.
DA's office states that specifically Dr. Gaines is not cooperating with said external investigation.
Can anyone confirm that what I've listed is accurate?
10:47 PM, January 08, 2007
swtt said...
The internal investigation (inquiry) will be interesting since the head investigator is employed by Wayne Vandersteeg and David Hamilton. This information was blogged several weeks ago. I've been to their company website and you can see the head investigators name plain as day employed by Wayne Vandersteeg and David Hamilton.
Does anyone see a conflict of interest here? Wayne Vandersteeg is head of finance this year and many times past on committee. Wayne was also a former staff member of Bellevue.
A serious investigation (inquiry) done for internal purposes has to be done by an independant group or the results have to be tossed out the window.
This mutual relationship between head investigator and close ties to insiders is a fact that is easily verified. It's also wrong!
10:57 PM, January 08, 2007
2006Huldah said...
Okay, Friends:
David Brown has answered your questions tonight with solid evidence being submitted in writing tomorrow for the whole wide world to see. He has asked us to pray for this situation that is occurring at Bellevue with lack of cooperation from the leadership/pastor.
THIS IS NOT TRIVIAL PROBLEM.
Anyone who can condone this sort of thing by one's church leaders must be woefully lacking in any sort of discernment (and you can call me nine kinds of stupid, degrading names if you want to for it would not surprise me if you did). This is a continuation of scofflaw, renegade behavior that we are seeing over and over again.
11:07 PM, January 08, 2007
Proverbs 12:22 said...
"The internal investigation (inquiry) will be interesting since the head investigator is employed by Wayne Vandersteeg and David Hamilton."
Didn't those same guys do a BBC staff study several years ago? Didn't that study have results that were devastating to Mark Dougharty? Weren't they discredited at the time for their findings as they related to Mark Dougharty?
11:10 PM, January 08, 2007
Proverbs 12:22 said...
Steve Gaines, David Coombs, Brian Miller, Harry Smith, Chuck Taylor and Mark Doughary, what are you hiding? For the sake of the children, tell the authorities everything. You should have done it last June. It's too late for that, so tomorrow is the day to start fully cooperating. You should drive that church van from Oxford, Mississippi straight to the D.A.'s office and lay it all out there.
Do the right thing, please! Our children are too important not to be protected. It is not your place to decide if someone broke the law or not. Render unto Caesar! Law enforcement is the purview of the state, not the church. If laws were broken a penalty must be paid. It is up to the authorities to determine if someone broke the law.
You men are accountable and you don't know better than everyone else. Do what is right! You are not above the law. If you have done nothing wrong, the facts will bear that out. So fear not.
11:28 PM, January 08, 2007
westtnbarrister said...
We should all be in earnest prayer for Paul Williams' son. If Bellevue is refusing to cooperate with authorities and Bellevue ministers are denying his abuse occurred, then Bellevue Baptist Church is now victimizing him all over again. He deserves better than that.
To Paul Williams if you are reading this, I wasn't there and I don't know what you did to your son. But, presumably, something happened or the pastor would not have outed your "moral failure." If you have any shred of decency, you will contact the D.A. and DCS yourself and tell them exactly what you did and when you did it. You should do this to spare your son further pain and agony. You will release your son from the decision of having to report his father to the authorites. I can't imagine what he feels like as he faces the decisions he may need to make in the coming days. Do this for him and you release him from some of his burden.
Have you considered the extra measure of pain heaped on your son every day this controversy goes on? Your silence today further violates him. And for what? To protect yourself? I call on you to protect your son. For once do the right thing. In so doing you might regain a modicum of respect.
I am praying for the entire Williams family. I cannot imagine what they are going through.
12:08 AM, January 09, 2007
Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. Gaines has confessed to mishandling Dr. Whimire's exit... The congregation now needs to hear from Dr. Whimire--and several others--by letter or in person IN THEIR OWN WORDS. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
Thanks, 25+.
I was hoping we would see your list again.
Wow! Unbelieveable! First of all if this is true, (and apparently it is), that sg is not cooperating with the state invsetigation, isn't there something the state can do? Like arrest him?
Secondly, what sort of a man calls himself a pastor and has no respect for the Word of God and continously breaks it? He is in rebellion against God. We are commanded to submit to the higher authorities. How prideful to think that you yourself is the highest authority!
He has used these strong armed bullying tactics with the flock. Is he going to get away with using them with the state? I hope and pray not! If he does that is pretty unsettling.
It looks like the corruption is deep if now JF is lying also. We know lying is not new to M Daughtery, but the dept of this corruption is beyond belief.
And what about the paper shredder that M Daughtery brought into the church under cover? Since he SNUuCK it in, you know it was for sinister reasons. I ask, why sneak in a paper shredder ? Is it a house cleaning before the law gets into the building?
25yrs+@bbc,
Good to see you back. I've missed that list.
Looks like steve gaines has set himself up as the one and only final authority. He submits only to himself. There must be a name for this condition.
Pinker: Please check out my profile. It explains who I am. I am the SNAP coordinator for West Tennesee and Memphis. I am also a victim of a priest.
On Dec. 7th I received two phone that afternoon asking me if I had seen what was posted on the blog. From there I began digging to find out more. On Dec. 8th I was told by the DA's office to call Nashville (DCS) and file a report. I did that.
From there it has evolved to where it is today. As far as what else I know, there is no need to discuss it here. Plus a lot of it is confidential.
I will repeat once again, if you suspect there is the possibility of child abuse, sexual or not. You MUST report it. That is the LAW. It is not for you to determine if the allegations are true. Even if it was the Pope, and he was told in a confessional, he must report it.
As far as details of went on that is not necessary. Too much has been said and a lot of people have been hurt and are hurting. Please be in prayer. I cannot emphasis that enough.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator for West Tenneseee and Memphis
It is time to contact the news media and have Dr. Gaines explain why he and his administration are not cooperating with DCS and Shelby County DA's investigations into a confessed child rape by Minister Paul Williams. This behavior must not be tolerated.
This is a very serious and confessed crime. The authorities should expect zero hindrance and resistance from law abiding men and women at Bellevue. Dr. Gaines and company are not above the laws of our nation and state. It is time for the citizens of our state and nation to join and condemn this repulsive demonstration by Dr. Gaines and his leadership
hecanhear,
I suggest bringing in Andy Wise :).
hecanhear and Koregg; EXCELLENT IDEAS! This is the only way anyone is able to deal with sg. I hope that the news media does ask him why he refuses to cooperate with the investigation and what is it he is so desperate to hide, and ask about the paper shredder!
Rod Almondmartanti said...
Looks like steve gaines has set himself up as the one and only final authority. He submits only to himself. There must be a name for this condition.
"Divine right of Kings" Google it if you don't understand. You could also call it the "Mayor Herenton syndrome" That's when you "forget" you are accountable to the people, and act as if you are the Emperor. Of course, in this case some might say, the "Emperor has no clothes". You can google that as well.
Below is a letter sent out by Bellevue.
considering:
Steve gaines was hiding a child molester and is paying him....
The child molester has not come to our church body confessed and repented, and he is still willing to take our tithes....
Steve Gaines and others are not cooperating with DCS and the DA.
on and on and on.....
I must conclude it seems
( in my opinion)
To bring our children and youths into Bellevue is more like sacrificing them than bringing them to church..
Leviticus 18:21
"Do not give any of your children as a sacrifice to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.'
i feel this lady is being used and abused to have to send this letter out under the circumstances that are taking place at Bellevue at a time such as this!!
May God richly Bless all those who truly care for & protect our
children and youth!
Bellevue
Baptist Church
2000 Appling Road
Cordova, Tennessee 38016
(901) 347-2000
STEVE'GAiNES, PH.D. PASTOR
January 4, 2007
Dear Parents,
I want to thank you for the opportunity you have given us of sharing God's Word with your children. Providing a safe, secure, and inspiring environment has always been the focus of our ministry to Bellevue's children.
The Children's Facility Renovation Committee, chaired by Mark McDaniel, has been charged with the responsibility of overseeing the renovation and design of the Preschool and Children's areas of the church. As part of this process, they have sought to evaluate and upgrade security. Bellevue hired a consultant to review our procedures and develop additional, proactive safety and security measures as needed. Some of you—parents, teachers, and staff—participated in focus groups last summer.
Beginning January 7, we will begin phasing in these new security measures. In the near future you will be invited to attend an informational meeting where more details will b* provided. This process is part of our ongoing desire to achieve the highest quality of care for your children.
Our children and preschool teachers and workers love your children and are faithful to serve them each Sunday. You should know that each teacher and worker has been carefully screened prior to serving. And for many years we have had great success through our child security ticket system.
I want to reassure you that our focus has not changed. We show the tender love of Jesus to our babies and toddlers by caring for them so their parents have the opportunity to grow spiritually by attending Bible Fellowship and Worship. Each Sunday, teachers of children sing and share from the Bible to build foundations of Biblical truth.
We thank God for His protection on our ministry and for allowing us to keep our children safe. Your child's welfare is at the center of everything we do.
Please feel free to contact us if we can assist you in any way.
Thank you,
Sara Jerkins
Administrator. Childhood Education
"Our children and preschool teachers and workers love your children and are faithful to serve them each Sunday."
And I'd have to concur that 99.9% of them are, but it's that tiny remainder you have to worry about.
"You should know that each teacher and worker has been carefully screened prior to serving."
Yes, and I bet a lot of them were "screened" by PW himself!
Fox ------> guarding ------> henhouse.
NASS
Please check your mail.
Thanks :)
Here are some things that might help.
1. Stop making YOUR lists that are 100% self and flesh.
2. Spend more time praying and much less on the junk on this blog.
25- I did not know you were nominated "president" of Bellevue. I am very thankful you have no authority at Bellevue.
Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
4545 said...
Here are some things that might help.
1. Stop making YOUR lists that are 100% self and flesh.
2. Spend more time praying and much less on the junk on this blog.
8:42 PM, January 09, 2007
Please list the junk that you are refering to?
Please tell us which points in 25+'s list are bad ideas and why.
4545 said...
Here are some things that might help.
1. Stop making YOUR lists that are 100% self and flesh.
2. Spend more time praying and much less on the junk on this blog.
8:42 PM, January 09, 2007
*trying not to feed the trolls*
*trying not to feed the trolls*
*trying not to feed the trolls*
Deep breath...
4545 is obviously benefiting from this current situation and does not want it changed:
secrecy
power of a few
no accountability
moral relativism
4545
I've seen enough self and the flesh in the pulpit to know that it's nowhere on 25+ list.
2000 Appling Road
Cordova, Tennessee 38016
(901) 347-2000
STEVE'GAiNES, PH.D. PASTOR
January 4, 2007
Dear Parents,
I want to thank you for the opportunity you have given us of sharing God's Word with your children. Providing a safe, secure, and inspiring environment has always been the focus of our ministry to Bellevue's children.
The Children's Facility Renovation Committee, chaired by Mark McDaniel, has been charged with the responsibility of overseeing the renovation and design of the Preschool and Children's areas of the church
Excuse me...But, Mark McDaniel is our Chairman of the Childrens Facility Committee and a Deacon.
Mark McDaniel, I believe is the same attorney who is defending a man charged with many counts of child pornography.
This was in the newspaper
severals weeks ago.
Just ask him for yourself.
A Chairman of our Childrens Committee is also an attorney defending a man charged with many counts of child pornography?????
Why would he take such a case??
WOW...Unbelieveable.....
and the plot thickens.....
watchdog said...
A Chairman of our Childrens Committee is also an attorney defending a man charged with many counts of child pornography?????
Maybe he will base his defense the Bellevue way "the guy made a mistake of the heart not of the mind" , and "if you speed you are just as guilty". Don't laugh, look how many BBC'ers bought this story.
Some of you—parents, teachers, and staff—participated in focus groups last summer.
Beginning January 7
So now we need focus groups to help implement security procedures? I guess, as far as BBC is concerned it does take a village.....
I'd love to know who were the on these focus groups?
From the previous thread...
Lets break this down.
Someone stated (and if you really want me to go copy and paste I will) that SG's house was worth X amount and that a pastor should live like "most" of those in his congregation.
I simply stated that Dr. Rogers did not live like "most" of the congregation.
It doesn't matter if he had another 100 years to accumulate money- if the problem is with not living as most of the congregation then the time frame should make no difference.
Koragg said...
hecanhear,
I suggest bringing in Andy Wise :).
Considering he is a member of the flagship Purpose Driven Church in the Mid-South, I think I would look elsewhere.
First people complain that decisions are made by a few people with no input now you are complaining that they are using focus groups...
For the record THIS kind of stuff is why I get tired of arguing- not anything SG is doing.
be patient
MY point was not that the pastor has to live like everyone else.
MINE is that Gaines apparently wants it all NOW instead of working toward it like Dr. Rogers.
be patient: I would respectfully ask you and others that you please keep this thread focused on its theme. Plese do not copy things from one thread and bring it up to start an arugment.
This lack of cooperation on the part of the leaders and denial of any outside investigation is extremely serious.
If folks want to aruge this other stuff, please keep it on the other threads.
After last night I am not in any mood to put up with a bunch of bickering over stuff that pales when you consider what is going on now. And those are the FACTS. Please understand and cooperate. If not I respectfully ask NASS to start deleting.
I do not want anything to take away for their refusal to cooperate with legal authorities.
Bepatient
Do you care that SG allowed a child molester to remain on staff for six months after he found out about the man?
David Brown wrote:
"If folks want to aruge this other stuff, please keep it on the other threads.
"After last night I am not in any mood to put up with a bunch of bickering over stuff that pales when you consider what is going on now. And those are the FACTS. Please understand and cooperate. If not I respectfully ask NASS to start deleting.
"I do not want anything to take away for their refusal to cooperate with legal authorities."
Thank you, David. NASS will be glad to oblige.
I think the time frame of this sudden concern about our kids is very interesting. This summer after SG found out about PW he acts to address security concerns. If they cared so much about the children why not fire Paul Williams on the spot and report him to the police.
NBBCOF has stated she does not respond to "encouragement" about what to delete. This is an open forum and plenty of other discussions are addressed in all the threads other than the central topic.
I still am not aware that anyone has verified that SG knew that this failure involved a child.
I have not yet been able to verify that SG and BBC are not cooperating(and I am trying). And if that is true I feel that it is extremely inappropriate for DCS or the DA's office to release that information. I hope if I ever had an occasion to deal with them, they will not reveal information about the status of my case to the public.
4545
Why would you so vigorously defend something that is not a benefit to you?
David Brown makes a good point above. Our church does not want to cooperate with the authorities.
As I already said - they thrive on SECRECY.
They have seized POWER so that only a FEW are making the decisions.
The do not believe they are ACCOUNTABLE to the law.
Why? Because of the MORALLY RELATIVE idea that the end justifies the means.
Bepatient said...
First people complain that decisions are made by a few people with no input now you are complaining that they are using focus groups...
For the record THIS kind of stuff is why I get tired of arguing- not anything SG is doing.
The focus group was my statement. I challenge you to find one single post where I advocated general input. I worked for the government too long to think that any form of governing by committee is a good thing. I personally think decisions should be made by the few.
David Brown: I do not want anything to take away for their refusal to cooperate with legal authorities."
Well put. This is serious...and incredibly arrogant.
I cannot understand why people keep feeding trolls...some may even be using acne creme.
David, what happens if SG and others at church refuse to cooperate? And, if you do not want to answer questions so as to not give them any ideas, I will understand.
there NASS, I saved you the trouble
Astounded,
I did not mean to imply that you personally felt that way. I just hear the refrains over and over about the problems with a church being run by just a few men...
and people seem just as upset when they do things the other way....
So you delete my posts, but not piglet's lies? What a joke!
bepatient: "...is extremely inappropriate for DCS or the DA's office to release that information. I hope if I ever had an occasion to deal with them, they will not reveal information about the status of my case to the public."
This involves a public figure so to speak. And it involves child abuse. A whole different animal when it may involve children. I am amazed the media is not reporting this outside your church on tv. They can report on this without naming names. They do it all the time.
4545
Piglet did not tell any lies.
Bepatient said...
I still am not aware that anyone has verified that SG knew that this failure involved a child.
I have not yet been able to verify that SG and BBC are not cooperating(and I am trying). And if that is true I feel that it is extremely inappropriate for DCS or the DA's office to release that information. I hope if I ever had an occasion to deal with them, they will not reveal information about the status of my case to the public.
9:31 PM, January 09, 2007
I will take David Browns word over your awareness every time,and the fact that the pastor of 30,000 member Baptist church is not aiding the state investigation into child abuse by one of its ministers in mind appaling.
4545 wrote:
"So you delete my posts, but not piglet's lies? What a joke!"
That's strike two, Mr. Deacon. Care to go for three?
NBBCOF
Why is my word or thought any less valid than David's? I have never lied to anyone here, or done anything to make you doubt my credibility. You are free to believe what you want, I am only offering up another scenario- not asking you to take what I am offering as the facts.
Ok, here it is. I can't prove anything and I hear sooo much about what you people say here. I hear the stuff you make up out of nothing and most of the time I just chalk it up to how juvenile everyone knows you are and I let it go.
BUT...I had to take a look for myself tonight...so I finally out how to post...I now have a blog?
Anyway, like I said, I can not prove what others have said even though some claim to have printouts.
If this is true I think you all are done with. Did you guys...actually I know who supposedly said this garbage....say that Dr. Gaines demanded Carter Threlkeld to bow at the alter Sunday, that he did it to make look like minister's at Bellevue kneel?
Do you know that Carter knows who said this. You people are....let's just say that people want to forgive you but you keep on and on and on and on.....whatever....I said I wasn't going to talk to this "blog"..I'm just really starting to feel sorry for you. Some of you have been long time members and your families were well like till all this.
I'm not trying to nor will I fight and argue..I just want to know if you guys REALLY said this.
piglet said- 4545 is obviously benefiting from this current situation and does not want it changed:
secrecy
power of a few
no accountability
moral relativism
I do not want to minimize the horrible act of what PW did.
I do not wish to minimize David Browns credibility at all, but the statement reporting the DA office said SG is not cooperating, does not make any sense to me.
I would like to see if someone could find where the DA office made similar statements on other cases.
Also, if they really wanted information and were really hot on this case, they would immediatly issue an arrest warrant and have the SG brought in for questioning.
I question the statement the DA said they didn't have this much trouble with the catholic church. Again, that would be commenting publicly on other investigations.
I doubt you will see a full blown investigation from DCS or the DA.
The DA is an elected official, that statement does not show the DA to be a strong law enforcement officer.
The letter that was posted appears to be a form letter with just a box checked. It could simply mean there is an internal investigation going on at the DCS offices to determine if they want to investigate further.
Be patient: NOTHING has been revealed about this investigation other than the fact there is nothing to reveal. So nothing has been compromised. Sorry.
Trust me and I speak from experience if anything had been uncovered none of us would know anything. But nothing has been revealed.
I have spoken out before when I have encountered a religious leaders stonewalling. I am good at doing that. When I see religious leaders refusing to stand on the Word of God I wonder what version they are reading because they certainly are not standing on it.
See I have to ask why. I do not want to see one more child harmed as I was and many other victims that I have met. Someone has to take a stand.
Ok now what is your opinion of them not responding to the authorities? Is that appropriate behavior from a church? Especially our church? Is that standing on the Word of God or the advise of attorneys?
Goodness knows that Dr. Rogers had preached many times we cannot serve two maters. There are many Adrianism about that. So what is it? Why won't they cooperate?
Bepatient
David has show himself to be honest,
and an advocate for children,you on the other hand are an advocate for SG.
David does not have to prove anything to me,you do. In my case your defense of the BBC leadership falls on deaf ears.
jamesd:
if you really do not want to fight and argue, please email me and I will be happy to help you find where this information was posted. It is not all you make it out to be.
If you do just want to argue, I can't help you.
Bepatient said...
Astounded,
I did not mean to imply that you personally felt that way.
So, are you implying that I should personally feel the way the other people feel?
I just hear the refrains over and over about the problems with a church being run by just a few men...
I personally think the problems with the church center around the fact that the church is being run by too MANY men. Dr. Gaines is getting payed royally to pastor this church. From this point, I have yet to observe a single instance of leadership on his part. It is true that many of these men were in their positions when Adrian Rogers was pastor. None of this stuff (or very little of it) went on under his leadership.
I think Dr. Gaines needs to step up to the plate and LEAD! He looks to be merely a Yes man for a mob of would-be power brokers.
Thank you NASS for removing the junk comments that are not related to the subject. Please folks - stay on Bellevue Administration refusing to cooperate with DA's and DCS investigation. Can someone comment about what options are available to law enforcement should Dr. Gaines and the Bellevue administration continue to stonewall? This is a VERY serious situation and should be a concern for everyone.
nthepew said...
"Bepatient
David has show himself to be honest,
and an advocate for children,you on the other hand are an advocate for SG.
David does not have to prove anything to me,you do. In my case your defense of the BBC leadership falls on deaf ears. "
So because I disagree with you, my opinions are not valid?
I think the comment about the media not reporting on this stonewalling by BBC also shows, in reality, there really is not any stonewalling.
I know the media loves to exploit stories on churches, I believe if the DA was that careless with their statements, the media would have a field day on this one.
They could sell millions of newspapers with the headline: SG at BBC refuses to help in investigation of a child rapist.
I got a strong suspicion we who have criticized sg for this act will all end up with egg on our face.
terry smith
I believe David Brown gave the phone numbers for the DA and DHS if you want to call and verify this yourself.
astounded-
I really just was referring to things in general when I said people complain about being led by too few. I meant that last comment to say that I have never heard you personally state that you feel that way. Not that you need to subscribe to any one else's feelings on it.
Has anyone else called the DA or DCS office to verify SG has not cooperated with them?
Okay, back to the topic at hand....
I truly hope that the church leadership is not withholding information. But I will not assume the worst about people since I have no confirmation that this is true. I just try to judge things on a case by case basis- and only once I know they are true.
No offense David, you are probably telling the truth, but I don't know why everyone else seems to think I should just take your word for it.
terry,
i am going to try to call tomorrow.
Bepatient
SG failed to cooperate with the state for six months. What makes you think that he is cooperating now.
If you believe the leadership on this I've got a great deal for you on a slightly used pyramid downtown,
thats what I think of your creability
terry smith,
It is entirely feasible that SG and BBC are not "cooperating" with the DCS/DA's investigation. It's kind of like the idea of "I plead the fifth" - or not wanting to further incriminate themselves. It doesn't make sense, but it happens.
As far as the form letter with the boxes checked - that does not mean that DCS is just talking amongst themselves - that means there is an official investigation. To be honest, DCS staff don't have time to open investigations on every call that comes in to their hotline, so for them to investigate means something.
Hope that helps.
I still challenge you to prove to me that SG knew that PW's failure involved a child. I am not saying he didn't reveal that. Simply that you can't say that is 100% fact. So therefore you do not know for sure that he did not to cooperate.
I am not saying I will support SG at all costs. I am saying that I am going to take all the things I know to be true (both good and bad) and decide how I feel based on the whole person-
No man is all good or all bad.
Terry smith said...
Has anyone else called the DA or DCS office to verify SG has not cooperated with them?
10:14 PM, January 09, 2007
Terry,
One other person I personally know called yesterday and got the same information. They are NOT cooperating.
That does not seem wise, does it?
bepatient: I still challenge you to prove to me that SG knew that PW's failure involved a child. I am not saying he didn't reveal that. Simply that you can't say that is 100% fact. So therefore you do not know for sure that he did not to cooperate."
That is a good question. How come no one knows the answer? Why the secrecy surrounding the sexual immorality of a 'minister of prayer'?
And, if he did NOT know, what difference would it make in light of how sexual immorality was handled according to 1 Corinthians?
Why would this make a difference to you from the stand point of purity of the church leaders according to Titus?
One of my family members spoke with the DA’s office this week; this person was also told that our Pastor and the leadership have not been cooperative in the investigation.
our righteousness is as filthy rags but Ithink you know that.
I do believe the man's intentions for our church are God's will or his own. Given the choices and the evidence....
For all of you wondering about the media. Memphis just ain't that swuft as some might say. I can promise you after Free Fire Thursday on Mike Fleming's show all the media will be picking it up.
be patient
Oops! My above post was toyou...
piglet said- 4545 is obviously benefiting from this current situation and does not want it changed:
secrecy
power of a few
no accountability
moral relativism
Oh and I hope that both parties that David has spoken with are willing to back those comments up on air because Mike will get ahold of them.
Again, my statements are always twisted around to a new argument instead of addressing what I am actually saying.
We do not know what was confessed to SG by PW.
So therefore we do not know that he violated the law.
Perhaps the reason that the information is being kept quiet is out of respect for the victim, or PW's wife, I can think of plenty of reasons not to reveal all the information to the general public or the church.
I have never said that he was not in the wrong for not firing him- just that he may or may not be in violation of the law. We just don't know yet.
New Leadership Covenant for Staff to sign at Bellevue Baptist Church
1. No staff member will molest his, her, or anyone else's child.
2. No staff member will refuse to cooperate with any law enforcement official investigation.
3. No staff member will use a Bellevue credit card for personal use.
4. No staff member will have any direct bill sent to Bellevue for any personal expenditure.
5. No staff member will do anything to help cover up any wrongdoing by another staff member.
6. No staff member will trespass into any member's neighborhood.
7. No staff member will look at the tithing records of anyone.
8. No staff member will participate in speaking tours for profit.
9. No staff member will use Bellevue resources to film and publish material for personal gain.
10. No staff member will use the pulpit for self-serving sermons.
11. No staff member will call members names publicly or privately.
12. No staff member will act on any personal dream or dream of their spouse against any member.
13. No staff member will act like they are not accountable to the church congregation.
14. No staff member will sign any document that would prohibit them from speaking out against wrongdoing (whistleblowing).
15. No staff member will fleece tour participants if they lead a Holy Land tour.
16. No staff member will ever lie behind the pulpit.
swtt,
I like your covenant.
You know, the sad thing is that a lot of those are just basic ethics.
Basic.
Bepatient,
I see where you're coming from. It bothers me that we don't know for sure what "moral failure" is at this point. Question. Would you be offended if it turns out that it wasn't a case of molestation against his son but some other "moral failure"? I'm sure we can all agree that BBC admin is aware that these are the allegations in the media and elsewhere. If somehow they spin this out to be something other than what everyone has been lead to believe it is, then I think we've got a much larger problem on our hands. If that comes to pass then a claim can be made that terrible unnecessary harm has been done to BBC by letting these allegations flounder in the media and community.
Please take note and don't flame me. I'm not saying what has been alleged hasn't happened. I'm merely stating one possible outcome far fetched as it may seem to this sordid affair.
Mom,
That doesnt make any sense at all to me, that BBC would not cooperate. This church has many business leaders in leadership positions at BBC.
Surely they would be the first to understand public relations 101.
Anybody with half sense would not want it to be shown a church did not cooperate with the authorities.
Romans 13:1 tells us we are to submit to the authorities. Surely such a well educated pastor such as SG with a PhD would know this.
This would be such a huge error and I can not believe such a well respected SBC church could get to this point with so many mature believers.
I really believe we are missing something, and my gut says we are going to end up with egg on our face.
If we are not missing something, and it really has got to this point, we must leave BBC and have no association with it. Doesnt 1 John tell us tha
Proverbs 20:19 He who goes about as a talebearer reveals secrets; Therefore do not associate with one who flatters with his lips.
2 John 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. (standing ovation)
1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. (this is a doctrine of Christ is it not?)
I believe if these allogations are true, BBC has not operated in the Doctrine of Christ. By us associating with them (if these allogations are true) are we guilty by association?
bepatient,
People have heard from Paul Williams own son who is the victim that the "moral failure" as Steve Gaines puts it, involved him. Steve Gaines addressed the church and spoke of this.
After all is said and done, if Paul Williams is guilty of child molestation are you going to be for or against Paul Williams serving on staff at Bellevue?
bepatient: "Perhaps the reason that the information is being kept quiet is out of respect for the victim, or PW's wife, I can think of plenty of reasons not to reveal all the information to the general public or the church."
There are NO good reasons. The man was a 'MINISTER OF PRAYER' and by that fact alone falls under guidelines for elders in Titus. PW is a servant in the Body of Christ. When PW sinned, he rained consequences on his family, too. That is the nature of sin...it hurts others besides yourself.
If he were NOT a minister in your church but a random member, not teaching, ministering or serving in a leadership capacity, I may agree with you except for the outline of 1 Corinthians 5 which says we must put the sexually immoral out of the church.
Now, IF Gaines did not know it was a child, as you suggest, why not tell the investigator that? Why not talk to them?
My guess is that they are going to send the internal investigation findings to them.
Terry,
It's been said that they might be following legal advice by not cooperating. It sounds like good legal advice but horrible advice for their ministries. Hiding behind lawyers at a time like this versus standing on the Word of the Lord just doesn't seem right. BBC reportedly has 30 Million in the bank. More than enough money for SG and company to stand on the Word and deal with any lawsuit related consequences. If they only would. Hiding behind those lawyers only serves one or two purposes. Firstly to safeguard the money. Secondly to keep themselves out of jail. The first one is understandable but could you ever have conceived a thought about a time when the leaders of BBC would be laywer'd up at all?
Could the not cooperating have anything to do with the fact that Sg was out of town on a youth retreat?
swtt
Can we get your staff covenant printed and distributed this Sunday?!!!
terry smith,
Don't be surprised by the counsel Steve Gaines is getting from these "business men".
Some recent examples of their advise:
1. Give $25,000 to FUMC without praying about it or checking out who the money is going to.
2. It's ok for the three of us to climb this fence and trespass with you. Nobody's going to catch us.
3. It will be better for our internal investigation (I meant to say inquiry) if we use this man that works for us to be the lead investigator.
4. We're going to give you this much money to be our pastor but it's none of the congregation's business what you make. We'll own you now.
5. We'll stand behind any lie as members of the Communications Committee.
6. We've got $30,000,000 in the bank so we can ride this thing out as long as it takes.
7. Just don't answer the questions. The questions will go away or the people asking them will go away.
terry: "I really believe we are missing something, and my gut says we are going to end up with egg on our face."
Perhaps the pressure on PW's son is so great he is going to redact?
ju,
I will be upset if it turns out the thing that was confessed was not the molestation of his son- esp. because this information is out now for the world to know and and it was not offered up by the church so those that revealed the information will have to deal with their conscience on that.
SWTT:
Which "people" have heard this from his son- I am sorry if I don't choose to put too much stock in what an anon. person says 'they' have heard from someone else.
Now that being said, I am fairly confident that it is true that this happened or his son would have quickly stepped up to deny it if it were not true.
All this being said, I simply do not know what was confessed to PW.
I do not think PW should return to Bellevue, but if he still desires to be in ministry I think there may still be a place for him- just not in leadership at a church. God can use anyone.
Back later...
Terry-
Guilt by association can only occur if you sit by the side and do nothing, say nothing and think nothing. You can be a part of th esolution and not the problem. Leaving only serves to let the problems and thier underlying causes remain and in fact fester.
we are called to be salt and light. What better way to act this out than to STAND for what is right and Holy and Just. Dr. Rogers used to say that if we stand for nothing, then we will fall for anything.
Be an Ephesians 6 Christian.
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the FULL (emphasis mine) armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes...13...and after you have done everything, to stand!
Be counted for God and His righteousness and noone will count you for the wrong side.
piglet,
I'll give Steve's office a call tomorrow and run it by him.
Thanks for the suggestion.
cjesusnme
Maybe 4545 was cauht on the blog after bedtime.
Lindon,
That thought has crossed my mind. So PW admits something to SG and then SG lets that something slip to somebody who either posts it here or lets it slip to somebody else that posts it here. Then it all blows up. If PW's son decides not to corroborate his father's confession then it all ends right there does it not?
aslansown
I agree with you. If all opposed leave, Gaines gets what he's wanted all along and it's "anything goes".
JU-
Talk to PW's son. That is the best way to get a guage on what is going on.
Aslansown,
Have you talked with him?
Phil413, did you read the last thing I posted to you from the other night?
Phil4:13
Great point! I'd forgotten the exact wording.
ju,
I could not have concieved this in a hundred years. What a tragedy, I just can not believe I would see such a day at a church with so many mature godly Christians.
How else can we reject such a tragedy but to simply walk away.
BBC is not the gospel, and I can not find any scriptures that tells me to stand up for a church that has got to this point.
Is it possible the Lord is using us as His sword against the compromising church in Revelation 2:16?
Other scripture I have found that if an idiot like me can read and understand, why cant our leaders?
Titus 2:12 we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, (again, I hesitate, because I am assuming we are not going to be blindsided by missing or not knowing some key facts).
Titus 3:1-2
Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men
Titus 3:10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
Worse than that. All who leave will be faced with the agony of not knowing t hat they did the right thing or not. It is no shame to stand alone if you stand within the will of God. It may be very lonely and emotionally draining, but the reward of a clear concience is peace.
Phil,
Simply calling it a "moral failure" gives plenty of wiggle room to define that "moral failure" at a later date when the time is of their choosing hopefully on the 16th like some have said.
JU- Yes
Piglet- My 11:14 post directed to you
Aslansown,
Are you able to state unequivocally that the words "I was molested" came out of his mouth to you?
terry smith
You're not an idiot :)
These guys used to understand the scriptures (I think ?) but their motives have clouded their thinking.
They've been deceived.
They have lied to others and themselves.
Now they are desperate to cover their sin.
Piglet,
Thanks, but these guys are not even covering their sins very good. This is what has me concerned. These are smart men who I believe could not make such dramatic (and open) mistakes.
A moral, innocent man would cooperate fully with law enforcement, escpecially in a case like this. A moral, innocent man would want to do everything possible to bring justice to this situation.
An immoral, guilty man would do everything possible to keep from cooperating. An immoral, guilty man would keep this man on staff so that he could help with the "infernal internal investigation." An immoral, guilty man would be far more concerned with how to keep himself from justice.
An amoral man wouldn't know that they were guilty. An amoral man wouldn't care what anyone thought about their actions. An amoral man wouldn't see the need to do anything.
Make your mind up for your self.
Is Steve Gaines a moral man?
If he is then he should cooperate.
Is Steve Gaines an immoral, guilty man?
If so it is apparant why he is not cooperting.
Is Steve Gaines an amoral man?
If he is an amoral man then he does not know what to do.
Which of these three men should be the pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church?
aslansown
Regarding your 11:14 post:
I agree wholeheartedly. When I get depressed or fed up and think about just leaving, I get even MORE depressed at the thought of walking away.
I'm not saying it is wrong toleave, but God has not given us that freedom yet. He has called usto this battle.
I also think of our dear Dr. Rogers and I just can't give up.
I owe him and our Lord this much after all the Lord has done in my life through this man.
Phil413, I have sent an email.
terry smith
I have had those thoughts but I believe God is answering many prayers by allowing them to expose themselves in this way.
I just wish more BBC members would see it!
bepatient said...
I do not think PW should return to Bellevue, but if he still desires to be in ministry I think there may still be a place for him- just not in leadership at a church. God can use anyone.
I wholeheartedly agree. God has used many men of questional moral character.
David
Paul
Peter
etc.
Again I ask, did the DA know that Gaines was out of town on a youth retreat whne he tried to contact him?
JU-
He did not say that to me. He is very careful because of the investigation. I was refering to gaining an understanding of who he is and insight into his character. This is the best way to address your question regarding the supposition of political gamesmanship. I am sorry that I cannot and will not spread supposition. Talking directly to him will keep others from misunderstanding your questions and possibly prevent needless speculation that only leads to more questions in the absence of facts.
If you need more insight on this I suggest you talk with David Brown.
Exactly Phil. I was hoping that Aslansown could give us a first hand account of a conversation with PW's son where he relayed the facts. Aslansown?
piglet said...
I'm not saying it is wrong to leave, but God has not given us that freedom yet. He has called us to this battle.
God will call some to leave. God will call some to stay and fight.
And, whatever the outcome, remember, God's will shall be done.
Aslansown,
It is definitely not my place to go personally prying into this young mans life. So me calling or talking to him about the problem is definitely out of the question. I was hoping that you might have first hand knowledge as to whether it happened or not based on whatever relationship you must have with him. Simple yes it happened or no it didn't happen was all I was hoping for. There hasn't been anyone yet that I've seen post that has FIRST hand knowledge of any of the facts. Maybe I missed it. That is why all of these questions.
Guys,
The conversation that I had with PW's son was one of a ministry of encouragement. Mainly to me. Dr. Gaines asked us to love on the family and that is what I did. I betray no confidence to say that this is a yong man wise beyond his years and full of CHARACTER. He is resolute and is fully aware of what is going on. Ask him. Be his friend, not inquisitor. He is not the key to dealing with our leadership problems. God is. Ask him. This young man is no shy wallflower. I came away from my discussion with him not filled with incriminating facts, but having fellowshipped with a brother.
Astounded,
I think some might make the distinction that those men were brought to repentance for their sin. That, at least at this point, does not seem to be the case in this situation.
And then, of course, there's the whole issue of whether or not a pedophile can be "rehabilitated."
memphis,
I really do not think it would have mattered that SG was in Gatlinburg. There would be a number of ways to contact him there.
And DCS is not known to "wait for someone to get back in town" to conduct an investigation.
anslansown,
Glad to know that.
JU-
What would you do with first hand knowledge now that an investigation by the state is in progress? Remeber, Kevin Rardin sid that SG is not cooperating. No mention of anyone else outside of Bellevue was mentioned.
Two things astound me after sifting through this thread:
1) The epidemic levels of impatience among many of the "regulars."
2) The extent to which bitterness has permeated the discourse.
These are serious times at Bellevue, which require serious men and women of God to respond in a sober, mature fashion.
Those of you who operate anonymously, it's time to drop the playground nicknames and put your reputations behind your posts. (However, Koragg the Klingon still gets a pass for having a cool name, though he should still sign his real name every now and again.) Publicly having to claim what you say can go a long way in tempering your remarks.
For those who don't us pseudonyms, kudos. Just make sure you stick to the facts, please, and leave the character assassination attempts to others.
There's an investigation report coming out very soon--let's see what it says.
--Mike
socwork said...
Astounded,
I think some might make the distinction that those men were brought to repentance for their sin. That, at least at this point, does not seem to be the case in this situation.
First of all, I am no apologist for PW. If PW has repented or not is an important issue. This entire controversy may be God's way of leading PW to repent.
And then, of course, there's the whole issue of whether or not a pedophile can be "rehabilitated."
I do know that very few, if any pedophiles are rehabilitated. Only God knows. But I do not doubt that in Christ, all things are possible, and that applies to pedophile ministers being rehabilitated.
JU,
Are you a Bellevue member?
Aslansown,
I seek the truth in this situation. Until somebody with FIRST hand knowledge i.e. the son said this directly to that person can say to me unequivocally that the "moral failure" was PW molesting his son I've begun to have doubts about the whole situation. The reasons are clear now. Who in their right mind would keep PW on staff for 6 months if he was a pedophile? Who in their right mind would not cooperate with a DCS and DA investigations into molestation? I'll tell you who. A bunch of people that KNOW there is nothing to be found that's who. I actually pray that this didn't happen to PW's son. I truly do.
Charis,
Yes I am.
offline now
JU-
You didn't answer my question. Maybe you need the rest of the night to think about it. I'm patient.
Ju, I believe it is a safe bet that we will never have the entire story from anyone unless PW is put on trial and people have to testify in a court of law.
Aslansown,
First hand information? It's clear why I want that. To clarify the issue in my own mind. No other reason. To know if I've been lied to. To know if I've been misled. To keep me from pondering different outcomes. As you can see several reasons why that information is vital to me.
Hey, moi again--I'd just like to say to the sycophants, you should all start your own "What If" blogs so as to not bully and pester people who are simply concerned with matters that affect their lives and those they love, personally.
And to my broken-hearted BBC dissidents, as Sean Hannity says, "let not your heart be troubled." There are enough of you (and the number's growing) that you may continue your spiritual path and fellowship with fellow travelers.
This division will only escalate, and enough folks have been hurt already. Forgive the arrogance of your true- blue brethen, begin anew and be responsible to, and demand accountability from, your church.
OM-en
JU-
Talk to PW's son. Ask God to give you insight. Find comfort inknowing that He is in charge. Talk to PW's son.
Ah well time to hit the hay and read the nightly verses.
Here are my closing thoughts for the evening:
Just because we ask "what if" why does that not mean we are concerned?
I am very concerned with what is happening, I just choose not to place all the blame for the problems on Steve Gaines. Why is it pestering to have a different point of view?
Maybe tomorrow I will have the energy to share the story of why I feel I have a different take on all this.
I have gone to Bellevue all my life and I know how "facts" have a way of being distorted along the path of those reporting them. I have seen it happen over and over on a smaller scale.... There is still someone I know that will not speak to my husband to this day for something he was told happened by someone else- this happened over 10 years ago.
And for the record- I am not afraid to reveal my name to anyone that has a genuine desire to know. There are many people here that know it, and maybe who get on here and read that know my name and it does help keep me accountable. If you have a legitimate desire to know, please email me and we can talk about it. But Bellevue discussion or not, I do not wish to just randomly post my name on the internet. You just never know who is reading.
bepatient,
Rest assured that most on this blog know that not everything falls in SG's lap.
aslansown wrote:
"Talk to PW's son. Ask God to give you insight. Find comfort inknowing that He is in charge. Talk to PW's son."
With all due respect, please don't try to contact PW's son if you don't already know him really well. Even if you do know him well, I'd think you should limit your contact to offering support, not fishing for information. This young man must be under a great deal of stress right now, and I imagine the last thing he needs is a bunch of strangers asking him questions. Please, just leave him alone! Pray for him, but don't pester him.
NASS
NBBCOF
May God bless you for speaking before I did. Your words display 1000x more grace than the words I was about to post.
Bible-in-a-year
(offline).
Be Patient,
The difference is not in an alternative opinion, but in asking others to trudge through great leaps of logic (the speeding lawbreaker jive), reaching hypothesis (maybe the "moral failure" was jaywalking all along)and symantic hair-splitting.
I was here during the whole string of comments about whether or not Padre had the dude kneel at the alter, and it was raised and resolved forthwith before I took off to shoot pool and have a brew. Futhermore, the Christian apologized for forwarding the accusation. Horror of horrors.
Your moral grandstanding sickens me--like you finally got a feather in your hat.
Yes, in such an atmosphere, nothing passes that won't be second-guessed--a glance, gesture or statement. And do you know what allows such premeditations to fly willy-nilly? A lack of transparency and accountability is a breeding ground for conjecture; so don't get on your high horse just yet.
True-blue believers, parse Padre's words with the verve you do these refugees.
Compassion, people, compassion.
I should add, all this is not directed to BePatient personally, but in general to the credulous denial of the barking home team.
nthepew wrote:
"watchdog said...
"A Chairman of our Childrens Committee is also an attorney defending a man charged with many counts of child pornography?????"
Maybe he will base his defense the Bellevue way "the guy made a mistake of the heart not of the mind", and "if you speed you are just as guilty". Don't laugh, look how many BBC'ers bought this story.
I didn't believe this until I checked it out for myself.
Oh, and I think you meant, "The guy made a mistake of the mind not of the heart." That, sadly, seems to be the Bellevue way these days.
NASS
Great job NASS thank you watchdog!
There is no wonder why our beloved church is crumbling from the weight of' moral failures'.
Why 'o why are these men protecting the very meN ABUSING THE CHILDREN OF GOD ?!?!?...
PLEASE REPENT AND PROTECT THE INNOCENT CHILDREN & ABUSED!!
NASS...
Let me see if I understood all of this correctly.
This man, Mark McDaniel, who is the attorney on record defending another attorney for child abuse charges is the Chairman of the Children's Committee at Bellevue Baptist Church?
Surely I have gotten something down wrong here?
Words don't often fail me...right now I am speechless.
Are we positive this the same Mark McDaniel who is the Chairman of the Children's Committee at Bellevue Baptist Church?
Was Mark McDaniel hired in this case because he has some degree of expertise in defending pedophiles from criminal charges?
Is he offering criminal defense advice to the BBC leadership?
Commercial Appeal
By Lawrence Buser
Contact
November 30, 2006
A longtime Memphis lawyer and writer who at one time represented Elvis Presley has been indicted on federal child pornography charges.
D. Beecher Smith II, 57, is charged with possession and receipt of child pornography in interstate commerce by means of a computer.
The six-count indictment says that between Dec. 11, 2004, and Jan. 31, 2005, Smith received by computer images of minors engaged in sexually explicit acts on at least six occasions.
The charges carry punishment of up to 20 years in prison and fines of up to $500,000.
His attorney returned a telephone message left for Smith Wednesday.
"Obviously I can't comment on anything my client would say, but he's obviously disturbed by the return of an indictment against him, as I expect anyone would be under these circumstances," said attorney Mark McDaniel. "The charges are serious charges, and I'll do everything within my abilities to address them in a manner that will best serve the interest of my client."
cjesusnme- What is your question?
piglet- I am not a child, please stop referring to me as one. Some of you cannot resist the urge to make things personal. That is sad!
4545,
Did you formerly post under the screen name "hisservant" or "hisservant-1"?
Are you a deacon? We've asked you this several times, and you've ignored the question. I can only assume you are. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
Where is ace? She and 4545 usually post together?
Father in Heaven,
We have no clue what is going on at BBC, in the SBC, in Christendom at large, or in our beloved United States of America. Things are so wrong.
We are at your feet. Help us to keep reading the Bible every day. When the world is falling around us let us always remember that we can always count on you.
Any faith we place in anyone other than you is done at our own risk. But you do ask us to take those risks because you have placed us in this world to be your representatives.
In Jesus's name,
AMEN.
Everyone,
Please see the post at:
12:16 AM, January 10, 2007
...on the previous thread:
Bellevue's Leadership Covenant
Thank you.
Day 10: Genesis 28-30
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Aruba
Good morning, cjesusnme! Think Mr. Deacon will ever answer? Have you noticed every time someone asks him that he (1) ignores it and/or (2) leaves the building?
Strange behavior for a deacon, don't you think? Kind of like when David Coombs met David Brown face to face. Tuck tail and run.
NASS
NBBCOf,
I would like to illustrate the simplicity of your question.
Are you a deacon?
Are you a staff member?
cjesusnme,
I would like to illustrate the simplicity of your question.
Are you a deacon?
Are you a staff member?
NBBCOF- You and the others will not have to worry about me much longer, unless the Lord leads me different. This is not a place that I feel I should be a part of for the most part. I am shocked at what is said and done on this Christian blog. I am also saddened. I know that many of you are hurt and regardless of what you say many of you are angry. I pray that you and others realize that this blog is not the answer and the things contained in no way glorify Christ. That should be any Christians ultimate goal, to glorify Christ in everything.
bepatient said...
"I am not saying I will support SG at all costs. I am saying that I am going to take all the things I know to be true (both good and bad) and decide how I feel based on the whole person- No man is all good or all bad."
I agree, but please, when you weigh the facts, measure them against scripture rather than how you feel. It's the only valid yardstick we have.
God bless you and may He enable you to discern truth.
TS
4545,
You feel uncomfortable here because the truth is hard for you to accept. You know things are not right with our pastor and leadership. You can't even answer a simple question about being a staff member (or spouse of)or a deacon.
I'm sure you will be back later today or this week under a new name.
I pray you are convicted by the truth today and you have a change of heart.
May God bless you.
I just spoke with Larry Griffin who is with the regional office of the State of Tennessee Department of Child Protective Services (DCS).
I asked him about the statement that Bellevue was not cooperating with the investigation that his office was doing. He said that this was NOT TRUE. He did mention that until he left who he was with versus just his name and number there had been a delay in the original attempts.
Mr. Griffin stated that he had been in contact with the correct people at Bellevue and they have been willing to help him as he has asked. He stated again that they HAVE BEEN cooperative.
Mr Griffin said that he doesn't need anyone to apply pressure to anyone at this point. He asked that Mr David Brown and others please allow him and his office to do their jobs. He would like this investigation to be through, comprehensive and be done in a timely manner. At this point he said that will require others to allow them to do what needs to be done and Bellevue has been doing this.
He also stated that he did not contact David Brown or anyone and discuss the need for help.
I also tried to contact Mr. Kevin Rardin. He is in court for the rest of the week according to his voicemail. I will continue to try to reach his office.
4545
This blog is the smartest thing we could have done. However, I take no credit , whatsoever, for this blog or the website.
We are tha membership who do more than just show up. We care about what is going on and see stark inconsistencies between the actions of leadership and scripture.
And, yes, I am angry about what leadership is doing to our church. It is shameful at the very least.
I have also been angry at your actions because for quite some time it has been apparent that you were coming here to discredit us, call us liars, and pick us apart in an attempt to start an argument and then complain when you were successful.
You have contributed mightily to any negativity on this blog.
During your time away I hope you will reflect upon the truth you have been exposed to. I hope God will reveal this truth in a powerful way but you must have a willing heart.
Regarding the post by no.rumors.please:
Several posters confirmed David Brown's statement that Bellevue was not cooperating yesterday.
I would assume that this is
1) BBC leadership attempting toquiet the outrage
OR
2) Things have turned around for whatever reason
I hope Bellevue is cooperating but I think we should verify this for ourselves and continue to apply pressure if they are not.
No Rumors,
Thank you for the information.
I will point out the statement regarding lack of cooperation came from Kevin Rardin and not Larry Griffin.
James Sundquist is a nut, plain and simple.
The only reason he is given credence by some in these quarters is that he attacks Bellevue leadership.
I guess that it doesn't matter that he has also taken a shot at Pastor Rogers for being involved with "Warrenism" and that he has slandered Focus on the Family comparing them to "Fortunetellers and Soothsayers."
Be very careful before you align yourself with someone like Sundquist.
cjesusnme- Thank you very much!
Jacob and the wife of his heart's desire: I believe that God honored Jacob's service of fourteen years in return for her hand in marriage. She must have been very beautiful!
And if Jacob had not gotten (apparently?) "falling down drunk" (or was it some other drugs that are common in the middle east?) at his own wedding feast he probably could have had her for seven years of work instead of fourteen. I guess that is like drunk drivers having to go to jail for several years.
Yes, Jacob did not learn a lesson from seeing God stop using Noah for ministry work for three centuries. This happened after Noah got drunk and spiritually abused his innocent grandson.
While Jacob probably could have had Rachel with just seven years of work, except for his own failing, it is important that he served all 14 years with no complaints.
We see that he worked very hard for Laban in 30:25-30. Profit-minded Laban knew his flocks would not do as well after Jacob left. The growth of the flocks had not benefitted Jacob's family. He was just a hired hand. Laban got the profit (this was not unfair since he was the owner).
Concerning 30:37-43
I just really doubt that these techniques were what really had such a positive influence on the flocks.
As just mentioned, Jacob had shown himself to be a cheerful, hard worker and an honest man.
I believe that the techniques used (strips of poplar, etc) had zero-impact. I believe that the reason the flocks increased were because God was with Jacob and honoring Jacob's 14 years of hard honest work.
Lessons to learn:
1) Be honest.
2) Work Hard.
3) Don't get drunk.
4) Don't complain.
5) (Most important) trust God.
Remember Jacob's promise before he met Rachel:
28:20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father's house, then the LORD will be my God..."
I believe the Lord was (already) Jacob's God. What a testimony to be able to pass on to us from thousands of years ago!
If only each of us could leave such a legacy to future generations.
Let's at least see what we can do before the sun sets on us today. Tomorrow will have it's own problems. Or maybe today will be the day Jesus comes back.
If you read any of this and have any questions about what would happen to you if you died today, please pray:
God,
I confess to you that I am a sinner. I know that Jesus is your son. I know that he was punished by crucifixion even though he has never sinned. Let his punishment pay the eternal price for my sins so that I may have the promise of a home with you when you end my life. AMEN
If you just prayed that prayer, I encourage you to call Bellevue today and find out more about living in this dark world. The people there are not perfect but they know the truth about how to get to Heaven.
Nothing that has transpired in all these months changes my opinion that Bellevue Baptist Church in Cordova (Memphis), Tennessee can fully assist you in following Christ. You can alternately call Germantown Baptist Church or Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary.
Yes, BBC can do better. All of us can.
You need to make sure you know how to get to Heaven so you can help.
Peace be until all who read these words.
Bible-in-a-year.
SWTT,
You are misinformed. The investigator, Mike Stavasomething (don't know how to spell it, much less pronounce it) does not work for David Hamilton and Mr. Vandersteen. He is an independant consultant. It is wrong to put this information out as fact.
Please check your "facts."
Healme
cjesuenme
You have mail :)
IWasThere said...
"James Sundquist is a nut, plain and simple.
The only reason he is given credence by some in these quarters is that he attacks Bellevue leadership.
I guess that it doesn't matter that he has also taken a shot at Pastor Rogers for being involved with "Warrenism" and that he has slandered Focus on the Family comparing them to "Fortunetellers and Soothsayers."
Be very careful before you align yourself with someone like Sundquist. "
10:52 AM, January 10, 2007
iwasthere,
Please remember that even while Dr Rogers did allow the PDL studies in the church, he also stated very plainly that we should follow the Word and not the book, therefore if there was anything in the PDL that would cause us to question it when we compared it to the Word, the we were to discard it.
Such is the same with anything from other sources, even Mr Sundquist. I happen to agree with him on most topics, but if I find his opinion on PDL is contrary to the Word, I will not consider it.
So to say that we are giving him "safe harbor" here, is not entirely true.
Wow,
So all of the sudden we have refutations about David Brown's conversation with DCS from last night. We have a refutation of the link between the internal investigator and some important members of the administration.
mom4
Coming from a legalistic upbringing,I tend to be skeptical of folks who find the devil under every rock.
I've listened to Focus on the Family since my kids were babies and I've never heard them contradict scripture. I'm also not afraid of christian psychologists,although, I would still make sure their advice lines up with the word.
Emotional problems can be spiritual but also chemical. We are niave to think the two don't overlap. We are learning more everyday about that. I thank God for good godly doctors of all kinds.
To paint psychologists with too broad a brush makes his other views suspect, in my opinion......
cjesusnme
I don't have your mail :(
swtt said...
New Leadership Covenant for Staff to sign at Bellevue Baptist Church...
____________
Are you really going to do this?
Why am I really intrested in this?
Because I used to be a BBC member.
piglet,
I agree completely. I was just trying to make the statement that just because Mr Sundquists is on this blog, does not mean that we agree with him on everything. I think he has made some very good points, but not all of them.
As far as your statement that emotional problems can be spiritual but also chemical, that is also a very hard fact and is supported by scientific evidence, which is based on God's creation - us!
There are many folks that I know that have recovered fully from bouts of depression thru medical or scriptural means as well as some using spiritual counseling. God uses many things to heal us, sometimes doctors, medicines and sometimes divine intervention! Ain't HE good - We get it all!
JU,
All I did to find out the investigator information was false, was I called Impact Logistics---David Hamilton's company.
Healme
(Signing off)
James Sundquist,
Why not repeat for everyone here the things you have said about Focus on the Family?
Why not repeat for everyone here what you think of Adrian Rogers as it relates to his use of Rick Warren's books?
I for one am not willing to over look your bile that you spew forth at my brothers in Christ and Heros of the faith such as Dr. Rogers and Dr. Dobson.
It is you who need to repent.
healme said...
SWTT,
You are misinformed. The investigator, Mike Stavasomething (don't know how to spell it, much less pronounce it) does not work for David Hamilton and Mr. Vandersteen. He is an independant consultant. It is wrong to put this information out as fact.
Please check your "facts."
Healme
Dear Healme,
I appreciate your concern for the facts. I only want the truth to be told. I did notice however that for someone to be concerned with the facts, you may not be on the right track on everything you say.
* Mike Stavasomething (don't know how to spell it, much less pronounce it)
His name is Mr. Mike Stavropoulos
* Mr. Vandersteen
His name is Mr. Vandersteeg
I went to Impact Logistics websiite and accessed his affiliated companies Mpact Human Resources, Impact Logistics, Impact Technology, and Impact Staffing Solutions.
It looks like they are all affiliated to me.
Where did you get your information from? I'll go with your information and say they are closely affiliated (since they are on the same corporate webpage and have the similar Impact before their name).
Thanks for the correction. I would be interested in your source however since it appears you don't know who Mr. Vandersteeg or Mike Stavropoulos is.
Thanks
IWasThere said...
"James Sundquist is a nut, plain and simple."
Mr. IWasThere,
I would ask you as a fellow Christian to refrain from name calling. Your fruit appears to be bruised when you stoop to such levels. I know this man and know him to be a man passioned for the cause of Christ. I doubt seriously anybody on this blog is more well read or is as grounded in the Word as is Mr. Sundquist. Mr. Sundquist' passion for Christ is such that he has dedicated his whole being to His cause and his discernment ministry both online and offline is indicative of that. You would do well to do a study of this man and his intentions before attacking his character. We all have the right to disagreement...I see nothing wrong with that as long as it is tactful, but when it reverts to name calling, it is wrong.
Sister Pam,
We as Christians want to comfort by nature. We seek to love one another. All this legal posturing is antithetical to the Christian walk.
I have been focusing on Ezekiel 34 this past week or so. The scripture is self evident.
I wonder out loud why a woman of Christ is not being ministered to by her Pastor.
Sister Pam,
So wonderfully stated!
David Brown IS credible...his life is spent also in furthering the cause of Christ! How profound his ministry in his outreach to those who have been sexual abused! This is Christlike! Praise God for this man.
And James Sundquist! My, how well you have summed this man up! All would do well to listen to him. All would do well to visit his website and read what is there. All of you should be thankful that he is willing to be helpful.
BR said:
Memphis said...
Ju, I believe it is a safe bet that we will never have the entire story from anyone unless PW is put on trial and people have to testify in a court of law.
11:49 PM, January 09, 2007
Memphis, If they will lie from the pulpit in front of Almighty God and His Sheep, what in the world makes you think they will tell the truth in a court of man's law?
I was referring to PW actions and what really happened. I do not think the BBC side of it will hamper the case against PW for what he did.
Mr. Bratton writes" Two things astound me after sifting through this thread:
1) The epidemic levels of impatience among many of the "regulars."
Response: Quite frankly, considering the unbiblical way events have been handled by your leaders, I think there has been quite a bit of patience!
Bratton: 2) The extent to which bitterness has permeated the discourse."
Response: Can you be more specific, please, with examples of bitterness here?
Bratton: "These are serious times at Bellevue, which require serious men and women of God to respond in a sober, mature fashion."
Response: Where ARE these mature, serious and sober men and women of God? Surely you are not talking about the ones that overlooked 1 Corinthians 5 in dealing with the pedophile minister of prayer? Or how about these mature men and woman who overlooked the guidelines of Titus and Timothy for an elder?
Would mature men and women of God investigate themselves?
Bratton: Those of you who operate anonymously, it's time to drop the playground nicknames and put your reputations behind your posts. (However, Koragg the Klingon still gets a pass for having a cool name, though he should still sign his real name every now and again.) Publicly having to claim what you say can go a long way in tempering your remarks."
Response: Perhaps they are seeing so many tactics that are reminiscent of seeker/pdl tactics, they are cognizant of the fact that using their real names will only target them by the leaders.
Bratton: "For those who don't us pseudonyms, kudos. Just make sure you stick to the facts, please, and leave the character assassination attempts to others."
Response: Please give specific examples of any 'character assassination' and PLEASE give some facts. Those are sorely lacking from leadership. They would be most welcome.
Bratton: "There's an investigation report coming out very soon--let's see what it says."
Response: Why? What is the point when they are investigating themselves? Hardly unbiased. Now, if you have FACTS that this is not the case, why not share them? Why all the secrecy in the Body of Christ?
Wayne D. Vandersteeg
Wayne D. Vandersteeg is Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer of Impact Logistics. With over 40 years of experience in the management field, he specializes in a take-charge, hands-on view of management. Having earned educational degrees in the Chicago, Illinois area, Mr. Vander Steeg’s past work experience in Memphis includes President of Dayspring Transportation Inc., Church Administrator at Bellevue Baptist Church, Executive Vice President/ General Manager of the Moltan Co., and Vice President of Sales and Marketing at Gurley Refining Company.
Mr. Vander Steeg is the past Chairman of the Finance committee at one of the largest churches in North America with a membership in excess of 28,000 people. He is also past Chairman of the Board for Evangelical Christian School in Cordova, TN
David S. Hamilton
David S. Hamilton is the founder and President of Impact Logistics. Having founded his company in 1986 with four men in one warehouse, he has seen his company grow to its present size of over 30 locations in nine states with over 800 associates. Under his direction the company has grown every year of its existence, even in the toughest of economic seasons. Much of this can be attributed to David’s model of leadership, as he fosters an environment that encourages growth, persistence, positive-attitude, and a willingness to change. Mr. Hamilton is able to promote from within his organization because of the attention that he personally gives to the members of his management team, which allows them the tools to develop their individual associates.
Mr. Hamilton is a member of the board of the American Warehouse Association (A.W.A.I.C.), which is an insurance-based division of the International Warehouse Logistics Association (I.W.L.A.). He also serves as Chairman of the Youth Education Committee at his church, which has over 28,000 members on its roll. He is also actively involved in the Christian Youth Movement, an organization in Central America that provides thousands of young men and women with rescue, rehabilitation, and reinsertion into society.
Michael R. Stavropoulos
Mike Stavropoulos joined D & D Loading Service, Inc. dba Impact Logistics on August 1st, as Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer. Mr. Stavropoulos will be overseeing the Human Resource function at Impact Logistics as well as being involved in the total operations of the company. We are pleased to welcome Mr. Stavropoulos as he brings us a long knowledgeable background in the Human Resources arena.
libertyinchrist and iwasthere
I wouldn't say James Sundquist is a nut or "spewing venom" but I do disagree with much of what he says, though not all.
I grew up in a church like this - even attended the school (shudder). They thought Billy Graham was the anti-christ. They had us stomping John Denver and Olivia Newton John albums in the morning chapel service.
After a couple of years there and large doses of this legalism, I launched out into the most rebellious years of my life.
Since then, I have learned discernment and I don't allow these peope to become the holy spirit for me.
I've read all Dobson's books, listened to him speak. He always glorifies God and draws them to Christ.
I am proud to have him represent conservative christians on Larry King and other programs. He is hated by the pro-gay and pro-abortion lobbyists because he is so effective.
I don't have to read what OTHERS think of him. The proof is in the pudding and it speaks for itself.
He was also a dear and very close friend of Dr. Rogers, whose judgement I trust after 25 years at BBC.
libertyinchrist
Personally, I think you are in bondage like those at my early church. Give up on me. I'm a lost cause.
piglet,
Were you "independent fundamental"? the "ladies cannot wear pants" kind?
mom4
Yes. Those were some of the worst years of my life. It took me a long time to recover from it spiritually. It didn't help that I was coming into my teen years at the time.
After that, Bellevue was a breath of fresh air. Dr. Rogers helped me understand God wanted a RELATIONSHIP with me . It's not about a catalog of rules but a deep relationship with Him out of which cheerful obedience is born.
My life hasn't been the same since!
Piglet: I love what you said, "It's not about a catalog of rules but a deep relationship with Him out of which cheerful obedience is born." The "rules" we need are there, in the Bible, given to us by God and not man. Bless your heart! Have a GREAT day!
piglet,
Me too! I remember so much grief over the legalist stuff! I still have some very very dear friends there and I pray for them regularly. I think that aspect has let a lot of folks down in their walk with the Lord - very performance oriented and legalistic to the point of denying grace. But I was saved there and love the people, so they have a place in my heart.
Well, we are off topic, but we will need to chat sometime!
concernedsbcer
Thanks. :)
James Sundquist,
Please keep sharing your opinions on Focus on the Family and Dr. Dobson.
With every word you further show your self as an enemy of the Bride of Christ.
Repent.
Healme,
So were you lied to or were we lied to?
Mom4
You've got mail.
Binwonderin,
Your using cached web pages to make the link your proposing. I agree with you that it existed in the past but it doesn't appear that he is a current employee of theirs.
Current
Past Zoominfo
Past Proof on Their own Website
I apologize to healme for my last post to him. It does appear that there is a link between these men but not a current employee/boss working relationship.
libertyinChrist,
According the web-sites that you referenced concerning Dr. James Dobson,
1. He endorsed the movie, "The Passion of the Christ".
2. His organization has a big $120 Mil budget.
3. They print a lot of magazines.
4. They have one of the most widely listened to radio programs in the world.
5. James Dobson is politically involved. To which I might add that we should all be greatful.
6. Dobson has a former employee that refers to his ideas as "Dobsonology". Similar to some of the phrases that Bellevue has coined as "Adrianisms".
7. James Dobson has opinions about the discipline of children and what is age appropriate.
8. Dobson urges us to not allow our perceived injustices to be held to God's account.
9. Dobson encourages parents to be open and honest with their children concerning a relationship that is reserved for marriage.
10. Dobson is convinced that denominational differences are not a basis by which to judge true Christianity.
11. Dobson believes that we need to accept our worth as it is given in the Word and confirmed by the sacrifice of Christ.
12. Dobson present the fact that we should seize every opportunity to teach our children as we go thru life of Biblical Truths.
13. My goodness, he has the support of Beverly Lahaye, Chuck Colson and Billy Graham.
14. Dobson believes that it is the responsibility of families to teach their children.
15. The list could go on and on and on.
I obtained all of this information from the web-sites that you referenced.
So...were the web-sites that you listed supposed to convince me that Dr. James Dobson was anything other than a Godly man that is concerned about the society that we are now a part of.
All of the above information is absolutely true. All of it. The only thing that I can say in response to that is praise God that he has allowed Dr. Dobson to be part of the samll voice of reason in a society that is being destroyed by the bull horn of lies.
Dr. Dobson doesn't need my help in defending himself, nor has he asked for it. I offer my defense of him for two reasons;
1) I Love Dr. James Dobson,
2) I Love the same Christ that James Dobson loves.
bin wonderin,
Thanks for the post to clear up healme's post at 11:10 accusing me of not presenting the truth in my post from 12:12
healme said...
JU,
All I did to find out the investigator information was false, was I called Impact Logistics---David Hamilton's company.
Healme
(Signing off)
response: I wonder who healme talked to at Hamilton's. It's interesting you would tell people to get their facts straight and publish on this blog what you did. It's obvious someone at David Hamilton's place of business is giving out false information.
Bin Wonderin got the info from their website. Either Hamilton/Vandersteeg's website is deceiving or their phone information given to healme is deceiving.
Be careful from now on what you accuse people of. Once again, this blog has given truth. Thank you blog administrator for allowing the common man to have a voice where in the past, it's been swept under the rug.
In light of what healme was told by Hamilton/Vandersteegs company over the phone which contradicts their web, the internal Bellevue investigator should just go ahead and step down.
No report from within can be trusted.
SWTT,
Read my followup post. Healme wasn't incorrect. Neither was Binwonderin.
JU,
Yes, he did work for them almost 3 years ago. Apparently, Mr. Stavropoulos also has done independent consulting work for Bellevue in the past. He is not on their payroll. The fact that someone has been employed by someone else in the past does not disqualify them for a position. There is no evidence of conflict of interest.
SWTT,
I did not accuse you of anything, I just asked you to check your information for truth.
I also apologize for mispelling Mr. Stavropoulos's name. And, I will also apologize for spelling Mr. VanderSteeg's name. But, if you will look carefully, you, SWTT, also misspelled Mr. VanderSteeg's name. According to the website, he capitalizes the "S." By the way, the only reason I have pointed out your spelling error is because you tried to discredit my facts, which I gained by calling their company, by spelling.
I know you cannot determine tone from email, but I feel that the attitude of your emails directed to me are unkind. Of course, that is just what "I" felt.
Healme
ju,
Mike was hired a month ago so when was the relationship between Mike and Hamilton/Vandersteet changed?
After exposing this relationship, could it be possible their business relationship was changed so it could be said they were not linked?
If you go to their website today, the relationship appears to still exist.
Splitting hairs is crazy here. Whether Mike is employed by Hamilton/Vandersteet or whether their relationship has changed doesn't really matter now.
The relationship is either current or recent which still lends itself to a conflict of interest.
Binwonderin,
Your using cached web pages to make the link your proposing. I agree with you that it existed in the past but it doesn't appear that he is a current employee of theirs.
Okay thanks. I just googled and that is what I got. There were no dates to indicate if it was still current. There appears to be a connection between these men, so it would be stretching things to say this he is an “independent investigator”.
I do wonder why they chose a human resources guy to investigate something like this. How is he qualified to investigate, and more important, exactly what is the scope of his investigation?
SWTT hired by whom one month ago? Clearly if you look at my last post they do not claim to have him on their staff currently. They have in the distant past back in 2004.
In my opinion the word investigate may have several meanings here. What are they investigating actually? That it happened? or could it be they are investigating who knew what and when, and why nothing was done 17 years ago.
I do not htink the "internal investigation" by BBC can be look at as the same as the external investigation by law enforcement.
To complete an investigation, one has to have an objective, and I think that there are different objectives between the two "investigations".
Post a Comment