Wednesday, August 15, 2007

"I'm going to teach Bellevue to be a praying church!"

What thoughts crossed your mind when you heard Steve Gaines utter these words from the pulpit in 2005?

In 2005 Bellevue's Annual Love Offering was earmarked for a new prayer chapel.

2005 Love Offering

Since that time, little has been said about a prayer chapel. Some who saw the plans claimed there was a prayer labyrinth in the plans. I've been trying for a long time to confirm this and only recently acquired what appears to be an architect's rendering of the Bellevue Prayer Chapel.

Prayer Chapel Plans

While the plan appears to include a labyrinth, upon closer inspection you can see, at least in these plans, it's really a circular room with three concentric rows of pews and kneeling benches. There are four doors off the main circular corridor leading to this room, and there's space in the center for a sculpture or some other focal point. While not a labyrinth per se, it does seem to have been inspired by the same.

Others who claim to have seen the plans have said the plans they saw specifically included a "prayer labyrinth" which was labeled as such, so perhaps it was removed from the original plans or there were more than one set of plans made.

However, the idea of a separate prayer chapel, especially in light of the recent budget shortfalls, begs a number of questions.

1. Why does Bellevue need a whole separate building devoted to "prayer"? We already have a 7500-seat auditorium that's open during the day as well as a chapel. Why the need to go somewhere special to pray?

2. Would the prayer chapel be open 24/7? If so, how safe could this be?

3. Who will "man" it? Paid or volunteer staff? (There don't appear to be any offices in this particular plan.)

4. There's a large 100-seat classroom/auditorium at the rear of the building. Again, Bellevue already has a whole building full of classrooms. Why spend money on more classroom space?


And speaking of prayer, here are the Personal Prayer Guide and the first two "assignments" for the "Pastor's Pit Crew," the children's prayer ministry that was begun by the new Director of Prayer. Is this what Steve Gaines meant when he said he was going to teach Bellevue to be a "praying church"?

Personal Prayer Guide

Assignment 1

Assignment 2

503 comments:

1 – 200 of 503   Newer›   Newest»
New BBC Open Forum said...

Regarding this...

This is the property that was bought from Covenant Community Church for Iglesia Bella Vista, Bellevue's Spanish church. They've been meeting in the chapel at Bellevue on Sunday afternoons but have reportedly outgrown that space and needed a facility of their own closer to the area where there's a greater Hispanic population.

gmommy said...

I feel very sorry for the kids that are taught, allowed ,and encouraged to pray those prayers.

no way that ALL of the power brokers and ministers left think this is right or even healthy.
SOMEONE has a check in their spirit....who is it?

I have to believe that the woman at that church that helped me understand unhealthy relationships and controlling people isn't falling for this...
no matter who her son in law is.

Crushed said...

So, there are actually parents who let their children follow this??? Wow!!!!

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Junkster said...

The prayer guide and assignments aren't so bad in and of themselves ... if the children had been given similar prayer guidelines for Dr. Rogers, I think most people wouldn't have objected.

What concerns me more is that the first focus of a new prayer ministry for the kids would be the pastor -- not the salvation of the lost (including their friends), nor missionaries, nor the poor and needy, nor those suffering from disasters or diseases, nor the church body overall, nor even their families or their own spiritual growth.

Apparently teaching Bellevue to be a praying church starts with teaching children that the first and foremost thing they can pray for is Steve Gaines.

New BBC Open Forum said...

junk,

Perhaps the sculpture planned for the center of the prayer chapel will be a bust of Brother Steve.

Psalm 43:3 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fogmachine said...

I'm thinking perhaps Steve should teach the church to be a repenting church.

A good place to start the example would be at the top.

Crushed said...

Personally, I just have never been a fan of reading what someone else wrote as my prayer or reciting a memorized prayer someone has picked out for you to recite. I do not let my children say memorized prayers. I want them to really know how to talk to their Father just like they would talk to us or a best friend. It is kind of a hang up I have and it drives my MIL nuts. She likes to teach them little prayers to memorize that they have no idea what it means. Anyway,of course, I am finding I may need to address the respect issue a little more. My child was saying her bedtime prayers. It was pretty typical of what she usually says, talks about the day, etc. Until the end. Instead of "Amen", she said , "Peace out". I about fell over!!!!! So, now we need to work on a little reverence I guess!

Kerygma said...

Forgive me, but these prayers give me the creeps. Is the sole purpose of this "pit crew" group to pray for the pastor? What about other staff ministers? What about the needs of the rest of the world?

This feels cultic.

Memphis said...

I really hope everyone got to hear David Platt tonight at BBC. It was a remarkable service and the choir and orchestra were strong. The message was wonderful and I wish those that say BBC is dead would have seen the response to the message. BBC may have some issues to work out, but the LORD is still working through the church.

Honestly, if you could not attend the service tonight, get the tape.

charis said...

I don't know how to even begin to comment on this thread.

I would like to know what SMALL churches are out there, Cordova and Bartlett areas preferred, but I'd be willing to drive...

Looking for a good youth department and sound preaching...

allofgrace said...

charis,
http://www.southwoodsbc.org

gmommy said...

Charis,
Do you have to have a small Baptist church???

sickofthelies said...

memphis said:

Memphis said...
I really hope everyone got to hear David Platt tonight at BBC. It was a remarkable service and the choir and orchestra were strong. The message was wonderful and I wish those that say BBC is dead would have seen the response to the message. BBC may have some issues to work out, but the LORD is still working through the church

SOTL ASKS?

Would this be the 400 member choir and the 100 member orchestra that the current leadership LIED about in the newspaper this last sunday? HMMMM?

Memphis said...

SOTL ASKS?

Would this be the 400 member choir and the 100 member orchestra that the current leadership LIED about in the newspaper this last sunday? HMMMM?


I did not go there to count people, but I would say there was not 400, but they sure sounded like it....

Memphismom02 said...

The Personal Prayer Guide 1 -- it's all about Steve. It's always all about Steve.

My child signed up for these mailings. I confiscate them when they arrive. They would end up being trash in her room anyway, so I trash them for her.

At the beginning of the summer, the children were promised rewards for praying. Can't wait to see how they decide who's in first, second or third place. Another contest with prayer as the aim didn't set well with me.

I have missionary friends in Tanzania who do Bible translation for unreached people groups. They put up with very low income and the constant threat of malaria. They homeschool their three adopted children. The dad is a fully qualified dentist, but is now a paraplegic, confined to a wheelchair. Once their baby was kidnapped from the dad's arms in their home. Thankfully the baby was found under a bush near the beach out in a village. Last Saturday night three gunmen raided a local restaurant there. My friends' lives were spared, but others' weren't. Aren't these the ones we should be teaching our children to pray for, and to hold them up as role models??? If you would like to pray for them and their work, they are Julia and Barry Funnell with "Word for the World".

When Christ taught his disciples to pray, did he focus on any human? No. It was all about His Heavenly Father.

We need not worry about someone manning the prayer chapel -- I'm sure another of his frozen chozen will be appropriately staffed to take that position. And I'm sure that this person will be related to someone else on staff. That's just the way it works these days.

Whatever happened to all that money we gave TOWARD the prayer chapel -- the so-called Love Offering??? Is that how they're funding the salaries these days?

sickofthelies said...

The prayer booklet for the children should have a photo of SG on the front of it and the title should be:

IT'S ALL ABOUT ME

New BBC Open Forum said...

And Steve thinks he's persecuted? Maybe someday you can introduce him to the Funnells.

New BBC Open Forum said...

SOTL,

The video.

sickofthelies said...

memphis says:

did not go there to count people, but I would say there was not 400, but they sure sounded like it....

sotl says:

Ohhhhhh, ok... i see..so as long as the choir SOUNDS like 400 and the orchestra SOUNDS like 100, it's sorta almost a little bit like the truth, so it's ok to inflate the numbers?

Oh, ok..see...( slapping self upside the head) I just can't quite seem to get my thinking in line with you folks from the NEW and IMPROVED BBC.

A lie is never really a lie as long as you can justify it by some spin.

Is there a new rule book that we could study so that we could understand the new standards for the truth vs. a lie?

sickofthelies said...

BBC parent to child:

" WHERE WERE YOU TODAY?"

Child to BBC parent:

" I was at school all day"

PARENT TO CHILD:

" The school called and said you were not there.."

CHILD TO PARENT:

" Oh, well, I was THINKING about school, so that was sorta a little bit like being there"

PARENT TO CHILD:

" Whew!!! For a minute there, I thought you were going to lie to me!!"

youthmomma said...

I'm not having problems with the purchase for the Hispanic church. From what I understand it's a wonderful ministry and something that Bellevue has done right. It's like a whole different world.

Memphis said...

SOTL:
All I said was "It was a remarkable service and the choir and orchestra were strong."

Nothing about any articles in the paper... It was all about the service tonight, and I think all that were there would agree that the choir sounded strong.

I did not go there to count or look for anything to complain about, I went to hear a talented, gifted young preacher, who preached a very good message. please do not try to read anything else in the posts, especially things that aren't there.

Mary said...

I don’t know what to say about these prayer guides – other than I’m absolutely flabbergasted at what I just read! Of course, children should be encouraged to pray for their pastor but not in this manner.

This borders on popery. It sets the stage for idol worship of a man. David Koresh and Jim Jones come to mind.

Please, oh please, don’t serve any Kool Aid to these children!

May God have mercy…

New BBC Open Forum said...

youthmomma wrote:

"I'm not having problems with the purchase for the Hispanic church. From what I understand it's a wonderful ministry and something that Bellevue has done right."

Based upon what little I know about it, I agree.

MOM4 said...

memphis said...
" BBC may have some issues to work out, but the LORD is still working through the church."

NO, the Lord is still working through His Word!


crushed said...
"So, there are actually parents who let their children follow this??? Wow!!!!"

I guess it depends on whether they want the child's prayers to lay at the feet of Steve Gaines or rise to the ear of God.


fogmachine said...
"I'm thinking perhaps Steve should teach the church to be a repenting church."

Don't you know that "repentance" is just a scriptural guideline. No one can follow scripture literally...Steve Gaines.

memphis said....
"I did not go there to count people, but I would say there was not 400, but they sure sounded like it...."

Have you not seen the audio equipment - the ones they use to play tapes in the background...sing along with Jamie tapes:) The volume must have been turned up.


My personal opinion....C-U-L-T!

Been Redeemed said...

WH,
YOU are deceived by a spirit that is NOT of God..you know NOT what you say!

NASS - time to go TROLLING!!!

fogmachine said...

Did the congregation have any vote on the $475,000 purchase?

Did the congregation know anything about the purchase before it hit the papers?

Interesting form of church government to allow $475,000 to be spent just like that with only a handful of people making the decision behind closed doors.

I wonder what's next?

I'm sure the cause is great so why not bring it before the church?

What harm would that have caused other than taking away the power from certain men who are used to not asking anyone for permission?

youthmomma said...

fogmachine, I agree that it should have gone before the church to vote on. I believe it would have passed too. My guess is that there will be no business brought to the floor ever since it seems to be working for them :\

Kerygma said...

At what point does the New Bellevue collapse under its own weight? Are enough new people coming in who don't know any better to keep the machine going?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Regarding the purchase of the property on North Highland...

It was NOT approved by the congregation, and they plan to spend another $200,000 on renovations. DC stated the funds came from the 2006 Love Offering.

As for the congregation approving any large expenditure, DC stated that hiring of new staff is brought to the congregation for approval only if it wasn't already in the budget. Of course, the information presented in the budget is only in very broad terms and categories, so there's plenty of wiggle room for funds to be "reclassified" as desired.

When asked about what constitutes a "large" expenditure, he replied that the $3.6 million for the renovation of the preschool wing was the last example he could think of. Someone asked if he thought $100,000 was a "large" expenditure, and the answer was no. What about $400,000? Again, the answer was a defiant "No."

Folks, when a $400,000 expenditure by a church isn't considered "large," there's a real perception problem IMO. And I don't think it's with me.

Lwood said...

It was NOT approved by the congregation, and they plan to spend another $200,000 on renovations. DC stated the funds came from the 2006 Love Offering.

It will be interesting to see what the 2007 Love Offering will be with all the people that have left and are continuing to leave.. Unless the powers that be drop in a big lump I feel it will really be short of what it has been....Another loss to the people is looking forward to giving to the Lord in our love offering...What a great day this was..When we walked forward and put our Love Offering in the Chest..
My feeling for the purchase of the property was it is a great mission for BBC and much needed but the church should vote on any expendditure of this size...It just makes a person feel like he has some say in his church..Well I guess it is not our church anymore..It is STEVE Gaines church.

bromichael said...

Well, again it's probably questionable for someone like me to get involved in your discussion. As easily as I can understand your overall disdain with the undercurrent apparent in that first children's prayer card, there's something in the second that truly is troubling.

Under its very first request, you read, "Being the head of something is about being in charge." Then, of course, you find a related way to pray for the pastor. Without doubt, a pastor is responsible for a great deal, and his pursuit should be the shaping and molding of a church into the image of Christ. But to tie that responsibility to "being the head" is borderline blasphemous.

In no way would I, with such little first-hand knowledge, suggest that your pastor or any staff member intentionally worded this request in such a prideful way. More than likely this constitutes only a poor choice of wording, but it should be said that there could be none poorer in this instance. It's not arguing semantics as I remind you of Colossians 1:13-20, particularly verse 18, where we read that our incomparable Christ, who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, Himself the Creator and Sustainer of all things, "is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything." Not to appear overly dramatic in a situation that is none of my business, but the wording of that prayer request inherently robs Christ from the glory that is His alone as our Head. The pastor is NOT the head of the church he serves!

As a Southern Baptist pastor myself, I'd love to know the children of our church were being led in appropriate ways of praying for me. But take great care, for requests liken this one and others could easily lead one to think more highly of himself than he ought (Romans 12:3). If you want to see God's blessings depart a church, or visibly see the Holy Spirit so grieved He leaves a body behind, just let pride go unchecked.

To close in even more honesty, I'm disappointed this thread has ignored the issue about which I've spoken. Debating property purchases, prayer rooms, and whether newspaper advertisements were completely accurate has its place, but where is the place for biblical faithfulness and making sure that every jot and tittle comes under the absolute lordship of Christ?

New BBC Open Forum said...

The latest on the Two Rivers Baptist situation.

amazed said...

Hey folks: The church staff being able to do pretty much as they please, is nothing new. Some where in the distant past, the congregation transferred all authority to the staff and they have been running with the ball ever since. Once this happens, it is futile to try and hold anyone accountable for anything. It is like having a blank check.

johnthebaptist said...

Memphis said...
SOTL:
All I said was "It was a remarkable service and the choir and orchestra were strong."



JTB: I am truly happy you had a remarkable service. I hope there are more.

New BBC Open Forum said...

bromichael,

Good to see you again! You make a very good point, and it's heartening to hear it coming from another pastor. I can assure you you're not the only one who is concerned about the tone and direction of this children's prayer ministry. I thought "memphismom02's" 12:02 a.m. comment was very good and illustrated a much better way to pray. The discomfort expressed by others support your position as well. Not everyone has been able to put it into words as you so eloquently did, but believe me, I haven't heard any thinking person disagree with you.

As for the other stuff, the blogging format makes it next to impossible to stay "on topic." I've tried running two threads simultaneously to address different topics, and all that happened was people posted nearly all their comments, regardless of the topic, to the top thread. So I've learned to "go with the flow." We will often get off topic, and we tend to get silly sometimes and blow off steam, but in the end I think we all know what the really important issues are.

Thank you for contributing. You are welcome here any time.

amazed said...

Lets keep up with what happens at Two Rivers Baptist Church in Nashville. The problem sounds very much like the one at BBC. They may teach us how its done.

all2jesus said...

Bro. Michael:

Apostasy in any church should be the concern of all believers, so I don't think events at BBC are none of your business. It should be the business of anyone who values adherence to the truth of scripture.

NASS:
The Two Rivers situation sounds eerily familiar. I should say it's a clone of BBC's. Too bad we were never able to pull together an off-campus meeting like that.

johnthebaptist said...

While I believe the congregation should have voted on spending $400,000 on the purchase of the buildings and should vote on the spending of $200,000 to update the place, I do not have a problem with the intent of the purchase. The hispanic congregation has been meeting in the chapel for years and needs a place of their own. That area has a large hispanic population compaired to Cordova.

I would pray that congregation does well and reaches their community for Jesus.

imaresistor said...

Kerygma said... "This feels cultic."

Amen! That is because it is cultic.

fogmachine said...

jtb,
I agree that it was a good spend. In fact, under the current situation, I hope they continue to buy more properties and give them away to other congregations. The more money they can give away to others the better. The only question I have is whether they are actually giving it away or maintaining the deed to these places. It's not a gift if they don't give it away 100%.
JMO

eprov said...

Teaching Bellevue to pray.....
Prayer is personal, unique to each person with the influence of Biblical teaching, role modeling and sensitivity to the Holy Spirit. While I think we all need to pray, I do believe that God gives some believers the 'gift' of prayer. I have known a few. I even think some churches have a special calling for prayer. The danger I see is that we think we need to all be 'dressed in the same suit.' It gets to be 'one size fits all' with so many preachers who have never had an original thought and only want success that is measureable in the eyes of the world. Great prayer warriors are rarely known to the world!

johnthebaptist said...

fogmachine said....

The only question I have is whether they are actually giving it away or maintaining the deed to these places. It's not a gift if they don't give it away 100%.


JTB: I understand what you are saying but lets focus on the positive. If people are getting saved and lives are being transformed, then it is money well spent.

Since we can't control the current "leadership" and the money they spend, lets see if this expendature is more productive for the Kingdom than all the other money that is being wasted.

There will be an accounting for their actions sooner than they think.

New BBC Open Forum said...

fog wrote:

"I hope they continue to buy more properties and give them away to other congregations."

Actually it was explained that Iglesia Bella Vista isn't a mission, and nothing is being "given away." It's part of Bellevue, and Bellevue now owns that property. The pastor, Mario Maldonado, is depicted on BBC's staff page (and I assume is on BBC's payroll) even though he doesn't have an office at BBC.

all2jesus said...

The expenditures for the Bella Vista property sound more than justified and I'm sure the congregation would have overwhelming voted for it -- had they been given the opportunity. However, BBC leadership is obviously trying to move away from congregational approval for anything, and allowing them to vote on this would have begged the question for other expenses.

I find it particularly alarming that any leader at BBC would consider $400,000 small change. Was this in fact a budgeted item for the 2006 Love Offering?

We've been told BBC's governance is "Pastor led, committee operated, deacon served and congregation approved." I suggest a revision:

"Pastor bled, committee obfuscated, deacons serfed, congregation: abused."

johnthebaptist said...

lwood said.....

Well I guess it is not our church anymore..It is STEVE Gaines church.


JTB: It is God's church. Steve can pretend to be incharge but God will have the final say.

God won't buy Steves excuse of it was a "mistake of the head and not of the heart" like some have done.

Karen said...

Bro. Michael,

I am coming to your church on Sunday! Thank you for stating the obvious: That God is the head of the church and any pastor that thinks he's "in charge" of the church runs the risk of becoming "not" (as in "Enoch was not" - love that verse!).

I truly believe that if anyone complained about the wording, Steve Gaines would say the wording of the prayer was a "mistake of the head, not the heart" - a phrase we've heard ad nauseum when Steve sticks his foot in it. This has happened time and time again (do you want the list of "mistakes"? Most of us can't forget them even as the list gets longer!), so I'm not convinced that the wording wasn't carefully selected and is exactly the way Steve wants it to read. Just another example of the self serving nature that permeates Bellevue since Steve's arrival.

johnthebaptist said...

Well said BroMichael. While being a little more on the inside that you, I don't disagree with much other than it probably was pride and not a misuse of words.
Pride fills the offices of most there.

I appreciate you BroMichael and your wise words!
____________________

My general thoughts start now....


If that prayer guide isn't a big read flag to anyone else, may God help them.

It just about leaves me speachless with all the selfcentered, self serving, prideful, arrogant,woe is me, I am being attacked jargon.

What about the REAL persecuted servants of God?? The missionaries listed on this blog? Thousands of others in China, ect.?

We need to pray for those who are persecuted for naming the Name of Jesus and for preaching Christ .....not like someone we all know who just acted/acting stupid.

sickofthelies said...

Ok, I just finished reading this prayer guide. Did Carolyn Higgenbotham write that? That is NOT the CH that I once knew!!! I am in utter shock. My heart hurts knowing that she has " fallen in line" to this extreme degree.

It appears to be " All Steve All the Time" at BBC these days.

Even if I supported him as the pastor, I would be horrified by the " cultish" prayers that are being taught to these children!!

BBC is now in my rear view mirror, but it still hurts to see this going on at a chruch that I once could not wait to get to.

P.S. Memphis, I AM glad that you had a good worship experience. It was not my intent to minimize that.

Rod Almondmartanti said...

We have entered into the apostate church age and according to Jude we are to CONTEND, that is to fight for the faith.

We are to use spiritual weapons but we are also COMMANDED to speak up and speak out the TRUTH. Truth is of God. Lies are of satan and those who lie are of their father the devil. I didn't say that. I'm just quoting what God has said.

God HATES PRIDE. He says He turns HIS back on the Prideful! God says HE does not that is NOT listen to the prayers of the prideful.

So that brings us to the prayer chapel: the chapet TO LOOK TO AND SEE. The external religious looking building that will hopefully fool anyone looking into that there is a church that prays! All external like the whited tombs. It is something for the world, the flesh and all to see.

The first reality when I heard steve gaines arrogant remark that he was going to teach bellevue how to pray was one of astonishment. What arrogance! What pride! What utter blindness!

Take a look around you and see all that the LORD has done at bellevue and then say, I'm going to teach bellevue how to pray?

How do you think bellevue was built? How do you think that God was blessing its socks off without knowing how to pray? Where did you just come from? On my part it was my opinion that there was a lot of jealousy there on sg part against bellevue and Dr. Rogers being such a spirit filled man of God and used so mightly by Him. JMO How else can you rationalize such bazzar disconnects?

Take a good look at bellevue today and compare it to a Bellevue of lets say 5 years ago. No comparrison at all! How has bellevue improved under the man and leadership that said we didn't know how to worship and they would teach us to worship? Results: dead as a door nail. It is amazing to experience DEAD in a congregation of people after being so blessed by the presence of God. GOD HAS LEFT THE BUILDING.

Now that we have been under leadership that is going to teach bellevue how to pray, what is the results of that and comparison of the Bellevue 5 years ago?

How far have you fallen and fallen so swiftly Bellevue. And there was no one that was able to stand in the gap without being booted out.

Bellevue now has an external, EXTERNAL religion they are inventing to look good to the eye but rotteness is withing. All is to see. Raise the hands! LOOK AT ME HOW SPIRITUAL I AM! Bow the knee, SEE, THIS PROOF THAT I'M PRAYING!! Say amen, but only when I say to say amen and not if you AGREE WITH GOD, (GOD HAS LEFT THE BUILDING) but if you AGREE WITH ME STEVE GAINES, SAY AMEN. That is what is said over and over again. No one can deny it.

So lets compare the new bellevue with the OLD Bellevue. See the difference? GOD HAS LEFT THE BUILDING

Lily said...

I agree with what has been previously said - the prayer assignment is appalling. Most disturbing to me was the last line of the 2nd assignment:
"help us be like he is" [SG - not a capital 'h'.

Cult, indeed, driven by pride and greed, unsupported by Scripture, pleasing to the evil one.

All I can say is Lord please work in the hearts of these folks who have turned from You.

Francesca said...

Did you all notice that the children's prayer list ended with a prayer to be LIKE THE PASTOR??? Not like Jesus but like the pastor. Did I misunderstand it?

Rod Almondmartanti said...

God does not listen to the prayers of the prideful or of the unrepentant. So no matter how much to talk about prayer, it is not going to do anyone any good unless they humble themselves and confess their sins. So far that ain't gonna happen. Therefore, it is all mute point.

MOM4 said...

When Jamie Parker first came, I was told he said that he was going to teach the choir how to worship and that the song "Send out Thy Light" was not going to be sung anymore - it hasn't been - and the Light isn't being sent out either.

Darkness has filled that place, and I cannot help but think of Dr Rogers' statement, "It's getting gloriously dark".

There will be a reckoning for what has been done, whether Steve Gaines acknowledges it or not.

gmommysgirls said...

Those prayer "assignments" really really creep me out. I agree with so many before that having a line in to pray for your pastor is one thing but taking an opportunity to teach children to pray and having the ONLY topic be about the pastor - can we say narrow at best and cultish at worst. I had a babysitter when I was little who was Mormon. They had a picture of their prophet/pastor on their family bulletin board to pray for him so many times a day. It creeped me out at 7 years old (left a strong impression on me) and it creeps me out today.

Rod Almondmartanti said...

It is the Lord and the Holy Spirit who teach the true believer how to pray,

When we don't know how to pray, the Holy Spirit does know how to pray for us, and He does so.

Wow! Even the prayer ministry to(not for) children is all about steve.

Rod Almondmartanti said...

"I'm going to teach Bellevue to be a praying church!" Translated: Bellevue in not a praying chruch.

Now we see man's lessons to children on how to pray.

Thought: Is bellevue now hiring all these new pastors to give some credibility to the staff> That is one way to go about doing it.

imaresistor said...

I would humbly ask for prayer for Paul Washer of Heartcry Missions. Many of you have listened to his sermons, especially the one addressed to some youth at a rally in Mobile, Alabama. He is also affiliated with First Baptist of Muscle Shoals. As many of you already know, there was a 7.9 earthquake in Peru last evening. Bro. Paul had left Sunday morning going to Peru and was there when the quake hit. Peru is where he was a missionary for eleven years early in his ministry. Bro. Chad Haygood, also from First Baptist in Muscle Shoals, had traveled with him and I ask for prayers for Chad as well. Peru is one of the mission fields connected through Heartcry. I do know that they survived the quake itself, but that is all I know at this point. I am certain they will be an asset to the people of Peru during this fiasco. Please remember to pray for all these people.

sickofthelies said...

When Steve Gaines announced on that Sunday morning that he was going to teach BBC how to be a praying church, Dr. Rogers was in attendance. How that must have hurt him, after 32 years of service!!!

Who could make the arguement that SG wasn't taking a prideful stance on that morning?

all2jesus said...

Rod Almondmartanti said...
"I'm going to teach Bellevue to be a praying church!" Translated: Bellevue in not a praying chruch.


Which, apparently, is what brought Steve to Bellevue, right?

Been Redeemed said...

SOTL,
I have a friend who works in a christian bookstore. One day SG came in and walked around looking at everything. He was there quite a while gazing at all the faces of the books, never picking one up - just "browsing". After watching him look for quite a while, she asked if she could help him. He made a "harump" kind of noise and without even looking at her, stated that "there is nothing here he doesn't already know". He then turned on his heel and left.

Must be nice to be able to read a book thru the cover.....or better still...to know it all, or to be so arrogant as to think you actually DO!!!

gopher said...

Maybe its time for

THIS

New BBC Open Forum said...

all2jesus wrote:

"Which, apparently, is what brought Steve to Bellevue, right?"

Right. I'm sure all those $$$ and perks had nothing to do with it.

I posted this a long time ago, but I think, in spite of the length, it bears repeating. I watched the entire tape of Steve Gaines' July 10, 2005 Sunday evening "farewell" to the congregation of Gardendale's FBC. You may recall someone played the 3-minute "Didn't I tick you guys off?" segment and was accused of lifting it out of context. I thought it only fair that I listen to the entire tape before drawing any conclusions. Now that I have, here are some excerpts:

*** In early December 2004, an article in the Commercial Appeal about the retirement of Dr. Rogers mentioned Steve Gaines as a possible replacement. Steve called the head of the search committee, Chuck Taylor, who told him that out of 170 candidates they'd narrowed the list down to five and that he was one of the five. He said he told Chuck to just take his name off the list. "Now your list is four," he said he told him.

*** The following Sunday he told the Gardendale congregation he'd told Bellevue to remove his name from consideration, that "God wants me to die an old man here in Gardendale," and that he would stand by them in moving to their new property. He said he'd "died to the issue of ever going to Bellevue."

He said, "We did everything we could not to leave."

*** He'd been asked back in the fall, before he asked to be taken off the list, to speak at Dr. Rogers' retirement service on March 4, 2005. Two or three days before, Chuck Taylor called him and asked if he'd be willing to meet with the search committee "since you're going to be here anyway."

Steve said, "I really don't want to. But we'll talk to you."

He said of that meeting: "The meeting was okay, but it was nothing electric. Donna and I sensed no call whatsoever at that time to talk any further with them."

*** Chuck Taylor called them back for a second meeting, and Steve said, "Let us pray about it."

*** On Easter Sunday 2005, Steve called the search committee and related the conversation like this: "I said, 'Look, just take our name off the list.' That was the second time. 'I don't want to fool with it. I really don't want to do this.' In my mind I was saying, 'I wish you'd just go away and let us do what we need to do.' I thought surely that was the end of it."

*** He said pastor friends began calling and encouraging him to "be open" about going to Bellevue. An unnamed "denominational agency head" reportedly told him, "You're supposed to go to Bellevue." He asked if any of them had spoken with Adrian Rogers, and all said no.

*** While at a meeting in San Diego in late April 2005, 7 or 8 more pastor friends reportedly came up to him and said, "God told me you should be open about going to Bellevue." All denied talking with Dr. Rogers.

*** Chuck Taylor called later that week and said, "I want you guys to be open to coming and talking with us. We don't have anybody to talk to." Chuck reportedly told him the committee was "not divided but diverse." He said they "couldn't settle on one guy." Steve told him, "We'll go talk, but we want to stay in Gardendale."

*** They flew to Memphis in early May for another meeting. While visiting his in-laws there, he was sitting on the grounds of Bellevue early one morning reading his Bible when he read the passage from the 6th chapter of Judges -- "Go in the strength that you have. Am I not sending you to rescue the Israelites from the Midianites?" He said the Lord told him He wanted him "to finish his ministry in this place."

*** And then there's the famous 3-minute clip. He'd flown to Memphis for "one last meeting" sometime in late May of 2005. Here's what he said:

"One thing about Gideon. He put out a fleece. So I put out a fleece. I said, 'Lord, I'm gonna be so hardnosed on this meeting, and I'm gonna tell them everything I don't like about their church, and I'm gonna tick 'em off so bad... heh heh... that they won't want me.' It wasn't exactly like that, but it was close. And I told 'em everything I thought they'd have to change, everything that we do right that they do wrong... I mean that. I came back and told Donna, I said, 'No way on God's green earth they'll want me now.'

"Got a call back, and they said, 'We have one more question we want to ask you, but we want to ask you in person.' I said, 'What are you talking about?' They said, 'Well, we want to ask you to be our pastor.' I said, 'Well, I thought... didn't I tick you guys off?' They said, 'No... in fact two guys were wondering if you were going to be a strong enough leader, and we all figured, he's strong.' Heh heh. So they... what I thought was gonna mess 'em up actually kept the process going."

*** I noticed in a different thread someone commented about Dr. Gaines comparing himself to Moses. In this tape, not only does he compare himself to Moses (not getting to lead the Israelites into the promised land), he compared himself to David not getting to build the temple when he referred to Gardendale's building program.

*** He was complimenting his wife on how much time she put into preparing for the Bible studies she led. "If I studied for my sermons like she studies, this church would be running 7000."

*** Then he talked about the "numbers" since he came to Gardendale. "More than 3000 saved and baptized." The budget went from $2 million to $9 million. The church "doubled in size."

So that was the whole tape. Did taking the 3-minute clip out of context make any difference in its significance? In my opinion, no.

A few thoughts came to mind though.

1. Although he said he "did everything we could not to leave (Gardendale)," he still hopped on a plane for Memphis every time they called him for meetings. I'm not questioning whether he felt called by God to do that. Just that he didn't seem to be doing "everything" not to come here.

2. Did all 170 candidates submit applications and resumes? If the CA article in early December was the first time he'd heard he was being considered for the job, then that implies he didn't apply for it. Again, I'm not saying he's being untruthful. It just seems odd that the search committee could narrow the list down to five when at least one of them didn't even know he was being considered.

3. Comparing himself to Gideon rescuing the Israelites from the Midianites, did he think Bellevue needed to be "rescued"? If so, from what?

4. Did he really tell the search committee all the things he thought Bellevue was doing wrong? If so, what was their response? Did they not think it was important to share that information with the congregation?

5. Chuck Taylor said they had narrowed the list down to five candidates. Does anyone have any idea who even one of the other candidates was? Were any prospective pastors ever brought in to preach a service at BBC?

6. Quote: "If I studied for my sermons like she studies, this church would be running 7000."

Response: So why didn't you? What else in your life is more important?

What I did see was a man who seemed genuinely sad to be leaving the church and people he'd pastored for 14 years. He seemed much more humble than I've ever seen him here. Maybe it was the lack of a tie. (I admit that was an early thought -- formed when I watched the tape 10 months ago. I've seen him preach here without a tie when he's delivered some of his most arrogant, beating-of-the-sheep sermons yet.) In just his dark suit and white dress shirt I couldn't help but be reminded of a courtroom setting where they make the defendant remove anything that could be used to harm himself. (It wasn't apparent whether he was wearing shoelaces or not.) He just looked so... sad.

fogmachine said...

I wonder if the members of these properties Bellevue is buying on their behalf realize they have no say in their church governence.

I couldn't imagine being a member of a church and finding out that my pastor was beholden to Steve Gaines to pay the utility bill and pastor's salary in return for not being autonomous.

I wonder how the IRS looks at a church operating under one name with the offerings turned over to another church or at least under the control of another church? Same FEIN number or different #'s?

Interesting setup. Perhaps this will be the new wave. 20 years from now, Steve Gaines has control of 20 church properties all over Memphis having control over their tithes because they own the property and they pay the salary of the pastor.

fogmachine said...

Welfare churches all over Memphis would be a new concept in the Southern Baptist arena I suppose but it wouldn't be new. I can think of a lot of denominations where secrecy is just about all that exists and the sheep do what they are told and don't ask questions.

I wonder who will be appointed the new Cardinals and Bishops in this new arena?

johnthebaptist said...

fogmachine said......

I wonder if the members of these properties Bellevue is buying on their behalf realize they have no say in their church governence.

I couldn't imagine being a member of a church and finding out that my pastor was beholden to Steve Gaines to pay the utility bill and pastor's salary in return for not being autonomous.

I wonder how the IRS looks at a church operating under one name with the offerings turned over to another church or at least under the control of another church? Same FEIN number or different #'s?

Interesting setup. Perhaps this will be the new wave. 20 years from now, Steve Gaines has control of 20 church properties all over Memphis having control over their tithes because they own the property and they pay the salary of the pastor.



JTB: No offense but you might be taking this too far. Just because BBC owns the property and the pastor is on staff doesn't mean that SG controls the whole thing. The pastor was here before SG came which tells me he has a single focus of reaching his people for Christ. Since I don't really know the guy, how can we assume that he has nothing but pure motives and is free to run the hispanic ministry as God leads?
I don't want to cast a negitive shadow on this ministry just because SG has cast a shadow on BBC.

fogmachine said...

jtb,

Steve Gaines has such a track record I can't help but ask this question.

Is it ok to align yourself with someone like Steve Gaines if you have to answer to him?

New BBC Open Forum said...

I thought I remembered something about this from months ago, and I just found it. I believe this is the article to which the author referred.

housewife said...

The post at savingbellevue about abusive ministries hit home.

I went through some of this at Bella Vista, the Spanish/Hispanic mission of Bellevue that meets in the Chapel at 2:00 pm. The Pastor is Mario Maldonado. He also used intimidation and false accusations. He often turned the tables around on his "enemies" by making it seem like they were the problem.

I stayed for a long time because I thought things would get better.

Needless to say, my family wasn't the only one abused and eventually driven out. I didn't speak out because of the language barriers between any witnesses and the Bellevue staff. Others didn't speak up either for the same reason. Only a few of us command the English language enough to hold sufficient conversations required for a "defense."

Anyway, when the truth started to surface about Gaines, I saw so many similarities that it was quite frightening.

We are still members of Bella Vista and by extension, members of Bellevue. We have been members of Bellevue long before Bella Vista even existed.

This is just one more example of the nonsense that Belluevue leadership hashes out to their members in the quest for power.

5:27 PM, December 13, 2006

johnthebaptist said...

fogmachine said...

jtb,

Steve Gaines has such a track record I can't help but ask this question.

Is it ok to align yourself with someone like Steve Gaines if you have to answer to him?


JTB: Remember, the Hispanic Pastor was there before SG. I believe he (the hispanic pastor) has a commitment to the people of his church. It could just be a very clear indication that SG is leaving him alone so he can do what God has called him to do.

He may be on staff but he doesn't worship with BBC. He is part of an out reach of BBC but He quite possibly does his own thing.

I don't think he has aligned himself with SG. I think he has aligned himself with God and is looking at the bigger picture of reaching the hispanic people of the city to Christ.

Lin said...

"The pastor is NOT the head of the church he serves!"

Thank you, Brother Michael for pointing this out. Your entire comment was right on. We are seeing a shift in the SBC, of all places, in the promoting of earthly priests. Too many of our pastors (and other 'leaders) are acting like little popes.

Real Biblical authority is servanthood. Paul called himself a 'bondservant'. The 'pastor' is just one member of the Body who is expected to be a mature believer as an elder but will be held accountable for what he teaches. Even Biblically, he is not exhalted above anyone else.

Numbers 3 and 4 on assignment 2 are major cause for concern.

We should be teaching our children not to depend on a pastor for danger warnings but on the Holy Spirit.

Number 4 is a bit eerie. It is almost as if he is saying that any rebuke means doubting God's Love for him when it is actually the opposite according to Hebrews and other scripture.

These assignments are actually teaching children to follow 'man' not God. Scary stuff.

I beg all parents reading this to discard these prayer guides and just read scripture to your children. Not verses...entire books. Right now, my daughter and I are reading through the NT and are on Acts. She is only 6 and I have to stop and explain the most basic things but she is understanding that we follow Christ...not man. There are false teachers on every corner and in many pulpits. My prayer is that she will have discernment and wisdom from the Holy Spirit.

This is serious, friends. It could mean the difference between heaven and hell for the little ones as they become adults. If they are taught to blindly follow a mere man, they will not be able to withstand the persecution that is obviously coming our way.

Christ is our teacher. Christ is the Head of the Church...His Bride.

Grace and Peace

fogmachine said...

jtb,

I think you need to be careful who you hang out with.
Usually birds of a feather flock together.

Who pays his salary? Bellevue or his church? Why is Bellevue paying his salary?

New BBC Open Forum said...

fog,

The way I understand it, as explained by DC, IBV isn't a mission but rather a part of BBC. I guess it's like the "women's ministry" or the "children's ministry." IBV is BBC's "Hispanic ministry."

johnthebaptist said...

fogmachine said...
jtb,

I think you need to be careful who you hang out with.
Usually birds of a feather flock together.

Who pays his salary? Bellevue or his church? Why is Bellevue paying his salary?


JTB: Why do I need to be careful who I hang out with? I hang out here.

Fog, Belleuve pays his salary as you well know. Does that make him a crook?
All I was saying was asking open-ended questions with no evidence is not a good thing to do and can harm a mans ministry. The mission couldn't pay his salary. They probably couldn't pay the $400,000 + fix up costs either. Why is it wrong for BBC to pay his salary? Guilty by association? That isn't always the case.

It is a common practice for the mother church to support the pastor when they start a mission church.

I have a friend in Ohio that is a church planter. The NAMB pays a portion of his salary plus the Ohio Baptist Association gives him a home to live in. Does that make him guilty of the bad things going on in the SBC, NAMB or state association?

No it doesn't! Just like the Hispanic Pastor isn't automatically a SG fan just because BBC pays him to minister to Hispanics.

Why insinuate something when there was never any proof? Are you looking under every rock with the hopes of finding something?

johnthebaptist said...

even if the hispanic ministry isn't a mission, that doesn't change the facts.

Thanks Nass giving me the facts on the outreach.

MOM4 said...

Nass quoted:
"He said the Lord told him He wanted him "to finish his ministry in this place."

I WISH HE WOULD!!! THE SOONER THE BETTER!!

Jack Bauer said...

Do you mean to tell me parents are allowing, and in some cases even encouraging their children to pray for their pastor.

johnthebaptist said...

Jack Bauer said...
Do you mean to tell me parents are allowing, and in some cases even encouraging their children to pray for their pastor.


JTB: Have you read the prayer cards? If you have and still agree with them, tell Steve hello from all of us when he takes you out to dinner on BBC's dime. You must be buddys.

Praying for the Pastor is very good and needed. Praying the way those cards suggest, is wrong.

fogmachine said...

jtb,

I'm sure the guy is great but I also know man usually is in line with the one who breads his butter.
We know that Steve Gaines has used intimidation inside the walls of Bellevue to both ministers and laypeople. Why would we think that anything has changed?
JMO

sickofthelies said...

been redeemed said:


SOTL,
I have a friend who works in a christian bookstore. One day SG came in and walked around looking at everything. He was there quite a while gazing at all the faces of the books, never picking one up - just "browsing". After watching him look for quite a while, she asked if she could help him. He made a "harump" kind of noise and without even looking at her, stated that "there is nothing here he doesn't already know". He then turned on his heel and left.

sotl says:

THIS is the arrogance that I am talking about!!!

THIS is what people are turning their backs on decades-long friendships and family members against family members JUST so they can defend a man like THIS????

THIS is the kind of man you want for a pastor?

I guess I'm just not so easily fooled as so many at BBC are.

His arrogance is disgusting and sickning.

johnthebaptist said...

Fogmachine,

Believe me, I know what you are saying but speculating about something with no evidence isn't something we should do. There is no proof that SG intimidated him and he fell in line.

Insinuating that is wrong and harmful to the mans ministry.

Let's just see what God is doing through the Hispanic ministry and the fruit should bear witness as to what the pastor is doing.

Jack Bauer said...

JTB said: Have you read the prayer cards? If you have and still agree with them, tell Steve hello from all of us when he takes you out to dinner on BBC's dime. You must be buddys.

Praying for the Pastor is very good and needed. Praying the way those cards suggest, is wrong.

Jack: can you tell me one specific point on the card that you see as wrong and why?

fogmachine said...

johnthebaptist,
Please don't misunderstand what I am saying. I've not said there is anything wrong with the pastor at the Hispanic Mission. I don't beleive he wants anything but for his church to grow and win souls for Christ.
I do believe however that BBC needs to cut all legal strings to churches they support. Turn the building over to them. That isn't going to keep them from donating money for the salaries or utilities. At one point, the Hispanic Church will have to stand on their own.

Lily said...

Jack - aka same ole troll.

Ignore. Don't waste fingertips or thought process in responding.

Troll motor must be out of gas.

Do not feed the trolls.

johnthebaptist said...

Jack, I can but I won't.

If you can't see it, I don't have the time now to explain it all to you.

Maybe, start with BroMichael's post earlier today. That is a very good place to start.

johnthebaptist said...

fogmachine....we cool.

ezekiel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ezekiel said...

I like this one better. The focus is where it should be. I think.

This Month you will pray for Bro. Steve from head to toe!

Dear God:

1)Lord Jesus, thank you for being the head of your church! Please work through your servant, Bro. Steve to bind up the wounded, put salve on the hurt and search for your sheep that are scattered in the wilderness. Show him what you have really called him to do.

2)Bless his mind-make it like the mind of Jesus. Fill his thoughts with Your word. Help him teach Your word accurately, without error and without twisting to fit his goals rather than Yours.

3)Bless his eyes. Remove the scales so that he can see Your word clearly without blurring. Help him see your disciplining hand and the rod of correction that you are swinging at him. Help him see the error of his ways.

4)Bless his ears. Help him open his ears and listen to You. Help him hear the cries of your sheep and above all, help him hear the Holy Spirit as He guides his path.

5)Bless his nose that he may smell the rotten smell of sacrifices that you will not accept. That you do not want.

6)Bless his mouth with accurate dividing of Your Holy Word. Give him courage to preach the Real Word any time he opens it. Let his words be YOURS.

7)Bless his bones and make them strong so he can bear up under the load of serving at your feet. Hauling feed and water to your sheep. Strengthen him to tell people about Jesus dying to save the world from their sins.

8)Bless his heart! Soften it and make it receptive to the moving of the Holy Spirit and full of love. Help him to be quick to obey, quick to love others and to do good deeds. Help him obey you with all his heart and keep it clean so others can see You through him.

9)And Jesus, please don't forget the rest of your body. While we know Steve's body is important to you, we know that we are too. Thank you for your love, your mercy and your grace! Above all, thank you for sacrificing yourself on the cross to save me from death and eternity in hell.

New BBC Open Forum said...

jtb wrote:

"It is a common practice for the mother church to support the pastor when they start a mission church."

Is that what BBC considers Evangel Baptist? A mission? Larry Ray is reportedly still on BBC's payroll, and BBC is said to be "propping them up" for the next few years.

Junkster said...

MOM4 said...
Nass quoted:
"He said the Lord told him He wanted him "to finish his ministry in this place."

I WISH HE WOULD!!! THE SOONER THE BETTER!!


Hahahaha! In the words of the wise philosopher Larry the Cable Guy, "Now that's funny right there, I don't care who ya are."

New BBC Open Forum said...

fog wrote:

"I do believe however that BBC needs to cut all legal strings to churches they support. Turn the building over to them. That isn't going to keep them from donating money for the salaries or utilities. At one point, the Hispanic Church will have to stand on their own."

The difference is the distinction between a ministry and a mission. What you are describing is a mission, and I agree with your assessment if that's what we're talking about. However, it's not.

IBV is apparently not a mission but a ministry of BBC, much like the women's ministry and the children's ministry. For example, Marge Lenow is the "Director, Women's Ministries" (only because BBC won't give women the title of "minister"). The pastor of IBV is Mario Maldonado. He's shown on BBC's staff page and his title is "Minister, Hispanic Ministry." Both these people are employed by BBC.

Apparently Evangel Baptist is now considered a mission. Note that Larry Ray is no longer depicted on the BBC staff page, but apparently he's still on the payroll.

Having said all that, I agree both would probably be better served by being eventually cut loose from BBC's apron strings and becoming self-sufficient, but no one asked me, nor is anyone ever likely to. It beats handing $25K to FUMC or spending it on airline tickets for the pastor's daughter to come to Memphis for cheerleader tryouts, don't you think?

Junkster said...

But all joking aside (I know, that's odd for me), a lot has been written today ... and some of it might have been better left unwritten, or worded more carefully. Friends, please remember the words on the front page of the blog:
This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church can come to comment and exchange ideas in a respectful, Christian spirit. The purpose of this blog is not to confront sins affecting us individually but sins that affect us congregationally. Remember that whatever you write here could ultimately be read by the world, so please consider your words carefully and set the right tone before you hit "Publish."

I know I definitely need that reminder at times. And also this reminder:

May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. (Psalm 19:14)

sickofthelies said...

Too bad Mrs. Higgie didn't add this to the little children's prayer list:

Please make bro. Steve not to be so arrogant and self serving. Please help him to obey the laws of our country and to help him understand that tresspassing is wrong and so is lying about tresspassing.

Please help him to understand how wrong it is to give $25,000 to a church that promotes abortion of little children AND promotes a lifestyle of sin.

Please help Bro. Steve to understand that when he allowed PW to stay on staff, he put every one of us children at risk from a pervert. Please help our parents learn to discern that as children, we are in danger of SG making the same poor judgement again.

sickofthelies said...

This is TOTALLY off the subject, BUT I just got a phone call from MLG&W. It was a recording telling us that the water supply appears to have rust in it and will have a metallic taste, and will be brown in color. But no problem, just don't use it unecessarily and all will be fine by tomorrow morning.

LOLOL!! Do they KNOW how hot it is and that people need water?????

Has anyone else received this recording? Is this a JOKE?

It must be Elvis's revenge!!! LOLOL

gmommy said...

BroMichael did articulate well the issue with the prayer...thanks.


From the other thread's topic,

I learned today that my niece was intending to let her daughter play sports on a BBC team.
Her husband had assisted the coach last year but he and the coach refused to sign their rights away to BBC.
The team's parents were not informed that they had no coachs so they showed up on the field.

This is the second time I heard of this happening.

I told my niece that the likes of "ace" WERE being allowed to coach.
Nothing is about the protection of the children.
My niece was appalled that PW had been a "first responder" at BBC when on staff.

Now claiming to be a protection for the kids,they demand to know your personal information BUT that info doesn't seem to do a thing to protect kids.
Another younger coach allowed in had a VERY unstable (putting it mildly)
background but signed the pledge.

WHO will suffer because of the ignorance of the parents and the corrupt hearts of the power brokers????????

the ones who always do...
the weak, the defenseless, and the wounded.

Jack Bauer said...

I tried posting this once, but it didnt take. anyway, here it goes again.

JTB said :(paraphrasing) I don’t have time to explain. See Bro Michaels post.

Jack said: I did as you suggested, however, even though I understand his argument, I'm not sure I agree with his conclusions. As I read the 1st part he referenced where he questioned Pastors role as "head", I don’t see any red flags. The term "head" can be used to describe a pastor, or in my case, a husband and father. While Christ is the Ultimate "head" of my family, it is common for me to be referred to as the head of the family. Does this take away from the role of Christ? I don’t think it does, especially since I am under His Lordship. In the same way, I believe a pastor can be referred to as the head, especially in the aforementioned section of the prayer card, since the card goes on to say that he is in charge of doing what the Lord has called him to do as our pastor. Even Doctor Rogers referred to the office of Pastor as the Leader. "Pastor Led...” I also notice where Lily had a problem with the last part of the second assignment. She believed the exhortation was for our children to pray the Lord would help them be like he is. Her argument was that since the "h" wasn’t capitalized, it must refer to Steve. I believe the more likely explanation is it is simply a typo. It follows” fill him up with Jesus" so it sounds to me like it references Jesus. In addition, the exhortation is to be like him, faithful to the end. Since pastor has not yet come to the "end", I don’t see how you could come to the conclusion pastor is the one being described. Finally, I don’t think it is right to fault someone for encouraging our children to pray for a few specific things at a time. In this way, they developed good prayer lives, without being overloaded. I am sure that in their sunday school classes and at home, the are praying for other things such as missionaries and the lost. This particular ministry is to encourage prayer for their pastor. As Junkster said, if these were handed out and Doctor Rogers were still pastor, my guess is that most of you would support it and not find it "borderline blasphemous". I think Pastor does need to be lifted up in prayer. Yes, he is not subject to the level of persecution that many others are, but he is still being attacked nonetheless. It would seem that some on this blog believe that one would have to attain a certain level of persecution before one can benefit from intercessory prayer. Pastor Steve still has to deal with people calling him a liar and a thief. When several respected men said the accusers were mistaken, they called them liars to. When Linda G. said the accusers were mistaken, she was also called a liar. Come on folks. Linda?

Just on this thread alone Mary compares the prayer guides to something that would be handed out to followers of David Koresh or Jim Jones, even saying "Please, oh please, don’t serve any Kool Aid to these children!
May God have mercy… "
and Mom4 accuses the choir of going all Milli Vanilli on us, and then calls the body worshipping at Bellevue a "CULT" a thought echoed by many others on the blog.
When Memphis tried to share the wonderful worship experience she had, most on the blog reacted by biting her head off. I am glad to see that most backed away from this later. I will admit, my first post on this blog was sarcastic, and I beg your forgiveness. I do however, feel that the overall tone on this blog is one of hate. Not for each other, but for anyone who, no mater how delicately, disagrees with the position that pastor is the modern day Jim Jones.
I feel he is a man. Any man can have struggles and difficulties, and find himself in need of prayer. I used to think that Moses must have been a real loser for arguing with God. He claimed he could not do as God requested, even though God promised him he would be there to speak. I also have, in the past, had difficulty being faithful, in the area of tithing, even though the Lord promised He had it covered. I believe sanctification is a process, and it is not a requirement, nor a possibility that one be found "perfect" before God can place him in whatever role he chooses, even Senior Pastor. I do believe it is right and proper to lay out certain biblical standards that one should meet in order to serve. I however doubt, that if it were discovered that a teacher failed to tithe for 52 weeks, or only did five quiet times instead of seven, they would be immediately dismissed or worse yet, have a blog started about them on the World Wide Web. I think the more likely answer is they would be prayed for and with. Encouraged, not discouraged. Only Christ is perfect. Anyway, sorry about the length and thanks for the bandwidth to get this off my chest. As Crushed daughter might say, "peace out"

sickofthelies said...

Jack,

Did you sign the oath?

Just wonderin

solomon said...

Jack,

Welcome to my world.

Jack Bauer said...

Dear SOTL, actually, you are assuming I am in a position of leadership and therfore I was required to sign the covenant.
I wish to remain annonomous and therefore will not disclose that little tidbit.
I will say that I see the wisdom in the covenant and see no problems with it.
I understand your take on the covenant and I do not wish to get into an argument with you, so I think it would be wise for me to not corrospond with you.
I had intended for the prior post to be my last and that was what I meant when I said I was getting it off my chest. I see I was not clear about that, so for that reason I am replying to you now. I did not want to come across as rude, and it is so hard to get someones tone when they are typing.
I mean no disrespect, and I pray you will not take my comments that way. I dont believe the blog is healthy, and I feel bad about participating to the extent that I did. I am being brought under conviction as I type. Again, This was to be a chance to express the way I believe, I have done that, God bless, and goodnight.

Billie said...

Jack you said it as clear as it could be said!!!! Thanks for the great post
Billie

New BBC Open Forum said...

jack bauer wrote:

"I think Pastor does need to be lifted up in prayer."

I'm sure I will be accused of nitpicking here, but when someone calls a pastor, the pastor, any pastor, just "Pastor," as if it's a proper name, it makes my skin crawl. I've noticed the opinions of those who do this are usually similar.

"I however doubt, that if it were discovered that a teacher failed to tithe for 52 weeks, or only did five quiet times instead of seven, they would be immediately dismissed or worse yet, have a blog started about them on the World Wide Web. I think the more likely answer is they would be prayed for and with."

And this was a big point made in the previous thread. IT AIN'T THE CHURCH'S BUSINESS OR STEVE GAINES' BUSINESS HOW MUCH ANYONE GIVES! That's between the giver and God. Period. With the total lack of transparency in finances at BBC, it becomes almost laughable. If someone from the church ever called me and said, "We've checked your giving record, and we don't think you're giving enough to Bellevue," you do not want to know what my answer would be! Suffice it to say it wouldn't do to print it here.

Howdy, Ms. Billie. How's it going?

Lin said...

Ez, Great list

Jack, Paragraphs are our friends.

And Jack, if you are comfortable with a pastor who ignores scripture when it is inconvenient, you won't find much agreement here.

Lin said...

"I am being brought under conviction as I type. Again, This was to be a chance to express the way I believe,.."

Test the Spirits, my friend. And 'believe' only what scripture teaches. Not a mere man.

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

Charles Page,

God just told me to tell you it's time to be silent now!

At least have the decency to stop posting where you're not welcome. This would be a good place to start.

oc said...

jackbauer said to SOTL:

I will say that I see the wisdom in the covenant and see no problems with it.
I understand your take on the covenant and I do not wish to get into an argument with you, so I think it would be wise for me to not corrospond with you.


oc says:
Yeah. I wouldn't want to argue with SOTL either. Especially when she's right. And you're not.
Run Forrest, run.

Just sayin'.
oc.

servingalovingLord said...

reader not a poster.... just one question? Do you all go to BBC? I may be behind on this one, but has it been addressed about where God stands on those who criticize/bash an annointed Man of God. Before you attack...I know that you don't view SG as an annointed Man of God, but what if you are wrong. Do you ever feel convicted of the "not so kind things you say about him" regardless of the position he holds. Would it not serve you better to pray for him if you think he is so wrong? We are new to BBC and the Memphis area. I can honestly say Sunday after Sunday what a blessing we receive from what is preached from that pulpit. I am a firm believer if all this that you spout about it was legit, that God would have in some way removed this man you call a fake from his role as pastor of this church. I truly do not think that what is said on here is God honoring at all. The way you all talk it makes me think you hold serious ill will towards him, and not in your pious ways. You spout how wrong he is...has the Lord himself spoken to you and assured you that you are indeed correct? I must say that I am so very glad to have found this fabulous church where what they preach is God's word, and how they worship is God honoring and spirit filled. I just know that I am refreshed each and every week.

I am not sure what kind of power you all think you have, but it would be so much more amazing if you turned your ill will thoughts to thoughts of "Lord, I am not convinced things going on at BBC are in your Will. Lord, please I am begging you and trusting you that if there is any wrong doing/SIN in the camp that you will reveal it and nip it in the bud. Lord, if my feelings are just jealousy, selfish, not quite liking change....deal with me Lord." Then just go on and PRAISE HIM for His love for you and His great care for you.

Reminder of what we all "deserve", but because of His love and mercy for us what He has promised to us.

This is totally written with a kind heart.

Lynn said...

servingalovinglord,

While in some aspects you may be right, I must ask you some questions:

1. Are you aware of all of the rules and laws Gaines has broken? You said you are new to BBC and Memphis. In the last year alone, Gaines has willingly protected a pedophile, committed criminal trespassing, as well as failing to turn over records requested by Josh Manning as per Tennessee State Law.

2. What do you think of a pastor that uses the pulpit to beat the sheep with his sermons. The last couple of Sunday nights he's had some sermons that essentially attacked those who are hurting.

3. Do you consider signing a covenant or swearing an oath to the pastor is Biblical? It is not. In fact, When The Master returns, Gaines will have to answer for this and all other high crimes he has committed against Him.

Gaines has no honor. Don't drink the kool-aid (Sorry nass).

Lynn said...

And yes, I used to be a member of BBC.

concernedSBCer said...

Ezekiel: Your 5:37 post was right now. What an honest prayer to pray.
:)

Lin said...

" I may be behind on this one, but has it been addressed about where God stands on those who criticize/bash an annointed Man of God. "

All believers are 'anointed'. Read the NT and see. There are NO special 'anointed' people who are above others. We do not have earthly priests. The veil was torn in two on the Cross. Pastors (elders) are ONE part of the Body. It is called "Priesthood of the Believer". Peter called it a Holy Priesthood.

Elders (pastor) are servants. Paul called himself a 'bondservant' of Christ. Their authority comes from spiritual maturity...not a title or position.

James 3:1

Follow Christ...not man and be a Berean.

Lin said...

"Lord, I am not convinced things going on at BBC are in your Will. Lord, please I am begging you and trusting you that if there is any wrong doing/SIN in the camp that you will reveal it and nip it in the bud."

He has. What are you doing about it? God gave us a 'manual' on how to deal with these situations in the Body. YOUR pastor ignored the manual. The HOLY Word of God.

Piglet said...

servingalovinglord

If you read your Bible, you will find that God has much to say about false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing. There wouldn't be any of these if God "took them out" as you suggest He would.

Instead, God wants us to be discerning and judge them by their fruits. This man, Gaines, has broken several laws, had to apologize for berating his flock at other churches on two occasions, has lied to the membership, and now holds the membership to standards he refuses to keep himself. When you see sin in front of you, there's no need to ask God His opinion of it because He has already given it to us in His word.

Gaines has rotten fruit and any charm you may think he has in the pulpit (although I haven't seen it) does not change that.

concernedSBCer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
concernedSBCer said...

Ever given thought to connotations? A connotation is the perception of what a word means. For example: strut and amble have very similar meaning yet have VERY DIFFERENT connotations. Discuss and spout are the same way, aren't they? I find it amusing to come to read (I'm catching up on 2 days) and read a "kind" post that uses words with unkind connotations.

Just a thought.
:)

Piglet said...

servingalovinglord

Oh, in case you are wondering, our family was at BBC 25 years. We left after we found out our SS teacher was lying to us about our church issues and our business meeting was shut down after ignoring Roberts Rules of Order.

concernedSBCer said...

Lin and Piglet nailed the reason (I believe) God has not "taken him out." Piglet said: "Instead, God wants us to be discerning and judge them by their fruits." and Lin said "God gave us a 'manual' on how to deal with these situations in the Body."

It's about personal responsibility. We do have free will and God-given intelligence and the handbook just for us. God needs us to be His followers and stand for His word. Everything can't, nor shouldn't be, always done for us.

IMHO, of course. :)

feelingblue said...

JB said:

"I however doubt, that if it were discovered that a teacher failed to tithe for 52 weeks, or only did five quiet times instead of seven, they would be immediately dismissed or worse yet, have a blog started about them on the World Wide Web. I think the more likely answer is they would be prayed for and with. Encouraged, not discouraged."

FB responds: If the teacher signed the Leadership Covenant and then "failed to tithe for 52 weeks", in all honesty the teacher should resign their position, based on how the covenant reads. They should not have to be "dismissed". I assume you have read the covenant or else you wouldn't have said "I will say that I see the wisdom in the covenant and see no problems with it". I know I shouldn't always assume but in this case I feel confident in my assumption. Go back and read the covenant again, especially at the bottom where they sign their name, and see whether you still feel they should not resign their position of leadership once they cannot meet the expectations of the covenant. I await your reply.

Memphis said...

Dear Jack Bauer,

Memphis is a Dude! LOL

fogmachine said...

billie jack,
I think you wrote the covenant that "Pastor" has everyone sign.

New BBC Open Forum said...

serving,

While I cannot speak for anyone but myself, I will try to address some of your concerns.

"I know that you don't view SG as an annointed Man of God, but what if you are wrong."

I don't. I think God allowed him to come here, but I sincerely believe it was because he was the one the search committee determined would be their choice from Day 1. If you read my long comment from this afternoon where I quoted much of what Steve Gaines said in his "farewell" address to GFBC, I think that's evident.

"Do you ever feel convicted of the 'not so kind things you say about him' regardless of the position he holds."

Personally, no. I try to be measured in my comments and not to say anything that I wouldn't say to him or anyone else in person. As I said, I cannot speak for anyone else, but I do think some of the comments have been too harsh and have sometimes crossed the line. Some I've deleted or not posted when comment moderation is on. Some I've published, but sometimes I've cringed as I've done so. It's like walking a tightrope all the time. However, I do not need advice from prissy, pious, holier-than-thou types about what I should or should not allow to be posted. You are certainly free to offer advice, but I'm just as free to reject it.

"Would it not serve you better to pray for him if you think he is so wrong?"

I have stated numerous times that I do pray for Steve Gaines every day. Writing on a blog and praying for someone aren't mutually exclusive activities.

"We are new to BBC and the Memphis area. I can honestly say Sunday after Sunday what a blessing we receive from what is preached from that pulpit."

I'm happy you're being blessed, but I fear you aren't as discerning as you need to be either.

"I am a firm believer if all this that you spout about it was legit, that God would have in some way removed this man you call a fake from his role as pastor of this church."

God's timing is not our timing. Steve Gaines may "die an old man at Bellevue" for all I know. Do you have some inside line to God so that you "know" what He would do and when He would do it?

And by the way, I don't regard speaking the truth as "spouting."

"I truly do not think that what is said on here is God honoring at all."

I already addressed that, but I agree that not everything always is. I would like to remind everyone for the hundredth time to please THINK before you hit "Publish."

I would also remind people to refrain from making such ridiculous statements as "nothing here is God-honoring at all."

"The way you all talk it makes me think you hold serious ill will towards him, and not in your pious ways."

You're wrong. I have stated before and will state it once again. I hold no ill will towards Steve Gaines.

The second half of your sentence doesn't even make sense.

"You spout how wrong he is...has the Lord himself spoken to you and assured you that you are indeed correct?"

Unlike some people, I don't claim that the Lord speaks to me like that, but I do feel led by the Lord. Has the Lord spoken to you and assured you that you are correct?

"I am not sure what kind of power you all think you have, but it would be so much more amazing if you turned your ill will thoughts to thoughts of 'Lord, I am not convinced things going on at BBC are in your Will. Lord, please I am begging you and trusting you that if there is any wrong doing/SIN in the camp that you will reveal it and nip it in the bud.'"

1. I don't profess to have any "power."

2. I don't have any "ill will" thoughts.

3. That sounds a lot like my daily prayer for BBC!

"'Lord, if my feelings are just jealousy, selfish, not quite liking change....deal with me Lord.'"

Ummm... no. Because those aren't my feelings. What is there to be jealous of? Granted I don't care for some of the changes, but to say it's "all about the music" or something equally as shallow is just... shallow.

"Then just go on and PRAISE HIM for His love for you and His great care for you."

You mean just "go on" blindly following a man and overlooking everything that's come to light during the past year?

charis said...

Don't blame God for what men did.

(NO, I'm not saying that God's not sovereign.) If for example, I decide that I'm going to cheat on my taxes, God doesn't do that for me, I do that for myself.

Men had decided long ago what king they would appoint for themselves and for everybody else and they got him. Do you not remember how J Parker got sent away TO Gaines' church, promising that we'd see him again as minister of music?

Evidence and long term behaviors ignored by the search committee...

May the Lord have mercy on His Bride

gmommy said...

Nass,
Not only did you do a great job on presenting this thread but your posts today have been right on the mark!!!
Thanks for all your dedication and work and time!!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you, gmommy. I couldn't do it without y'all. :-)

concernedSBCer said...

Serving said: "You spout how wrong he is...has the Lord himself spoken to you and assured you that you are indeed correct?"

There's that negative connotation I posted about. :)

I believe many things that Steve Gaines has done have been addressed directly by the Lord. In the Bible. I believe that many things people say, "I need to go pray about" such-and-so are already dealt with in the Bible and don't need to necessarily be prayed about at all. God already answered. The problem is that many people don't know enough about what the Bible says, and they seem to believe God's laws are somehow fluid, so they must pray.

No.

There are very definite rules (not guidelines) for being a leader in a church, for living a Christian life, for treating others. Steve Gaines has disregarded many of these.

So it really doesn't matter what I think is correct, does it? It matters what God said. And He already spoke volumes in the Bible. Many of these issues have already been addressed there.

And Steve Gaines has been wrong on many issues, according to scripture in the Bible.

concernedSBCer said...

Serving said: "Lord, please I am begging you and trusting you that if there is any wrong doing/SIN in the camp that you will reveal it and nip it in the bud.'"

Um.....He has revealed it. To many. Nipping in the bud? That's up to Him.

Some of your logic seems a little shaky. It seems as if you believe if someone is doing something wrong, God will stop it immediately. That has not been the case always, and the first example that comes to mind is Hitler.

DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND.....I am NOT saying anyone is Hitler.

I am just saying that Hitler was a demented person that tried to destroy God's chosen people. He certainly was in no way, shape or form, anything but evil. God did not "take him out." That doesn't mean Hitler was right. God is in control and His ways are not always in our understanding.

We know many things that have happened/are happening at BBC are wrong. It is our conviction that we must sound the alarm so that new/immature believers are not led astray by false teaching. What those people do with the alarm is ultimately up to them.

However, GOD has told us to sound it. We are obedient to what He has told us to do.

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
Thank you, gmommy. I couldn't do it without y'all. :-)

Well, you could, but all you'd hear would be the sound of crickets. Like some other blogs.

Lin said...

"You spout how wrong he is...has the Lord himself spoken to you and assured you that you are indeed correct?"

Sure. It is all over scripture. A few places to start are 1 Corin 5, 1 Timothy 2, Hebrews 10, Matthew 5-23, etc. That is just a start.

The Lord 'speaks' through scripture.

ezekiel said...

Lin,

It IS all over scripture. One just has to ask then, why don't we all see it?

There is not excuse for ignorance of the WORD. The more we learn, the more light we have to shine into the darkness.

We sure do need a lot of LIGHT.

Billie said...

Howdy, Ms. Billie. How's it going?

8:05 PM, August 16, 2007

Very well, thank you for asking

God is good ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!

You know my thoughts on every thread and exactly where I stand so there is no need to, "go there again"

Note of advice: Your brain is constantly being fed with messages be careful and discern which ones are coming from God and which are coming from Satan because your actions and words carry on the message to the one who listens to you. Ask yourself: Am I a messenger of good news or am I a messenger who looks for bad news to report? Do you see the class half empty or half full?

I see it half full and BBC has a great opportunity to go and tell others that the good news of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is being taught at BBC, "Come to Jesus"!!!!!


TTUL--If God opens the gate

Billie

johnthebaptist said...

billie said....


Note of advice: Your brain is constantly being fed with messages be careful and discern which ones are coming from God and which are coming from Satan because your actions and words carry on the message to the one who listens to you. Ask yourself: Am I a messenger of good news or am I a messenger who looks for bad news to report?


JTB: Please take your own advise.




Billie said....

I see it half full and BBC has a great opportunity to go and tell others that the good news of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is being taught at BBC, "Come to Jesus"!!!!!


JTB: You are correct Billie, the church ("glass") is half full at best. There must be a leak.

It used to be full but Dr. Rogers retired. Now you have a glass with a hole in it and is nothing but a shell of what it was.

Jesus was being taught there but then again, Dr. Rogers retired.
Come to Jesus is Dr. Rogers line. Why would you use it now? Living in the past Billie?

I do appreciate you enthusiasum eventhough I think you are wrong on some points.

Lin said...

"Ask yourself: Am I a messenger of good news or am I a messenger who looks for bad news to report? Do you see the class half empty or half full?"

Ask yourself: Did everyone in the NT think Jesus' message was 'Good News'?

Read John 6 and pay close attention to 60-66.

Miss Billie, your comments above have more in common with pop psychology than scripture.

"Note of advice: Your brain is constantly being fed with messages be careful and discern which ones are coming from God and which are coming from Satan because your actions and words carry on the message to the one who listens to you."

There is a simple remedy: Reading Scripture in context. Praying for wisdom and discernment. Test everything and be a Berean. Satan always wants us to proof text and/or ignore scriptural teaching as your pastor did.

Miss Billie, Sometimes powerful truths are 'negative' to the 'worldly'.

Jesus said, "You must eat My flesh and drink My blood to follow Me". He offended quite a few people with that one.

Karen said...

concerned said...

I am just saying that Hitler was a demented person that tried to destroy God's chosen people. He certainly was in no way, shape or form, anything but evil. God did not "take him out." That doesn't mean Hitler was right. God is in control and His ways are not always in our understanding.


Hitler ultimately comitted suicide, right? Is that of God or of Satan? Just wondering - email me!

Junkster said...

Billie said...
TTUL--If God opens the gate

I thought He already gave you the key last time you posted. Does He keep taking it back? Or are you really just another fence-climber?

Fence-climber .. has a good ring to it; could be a useful term to describe those who are not truthseekers.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Billie wrote:

"Very well, thank you for asking"

Glad to hear that.

"God is good ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!"

Absolutely.

"Your brain is constantly being fed with messages be careful and discern which ones are coming from God and which are coming from Satan... "

If your brain is constantly being fed with messages then it sounds to me like there's a problem. As many have already said, we "hear" everything we need to know by reading the Word, not by listening to "voices" in our heads.

"Ask yourself: Am I a messenger of good news or am I a messenger who looks for bad news to report?"

Just seeking the truth and passing it along. If it's good news or if it's bad news is not relevant.

"Do you see the class half empty or half full?"

The fact that BBC eliminated 40% of the youth SS classes alone (that's 51 of 126 classes) and still needs some 20-30 more teachers for the remaining classes tells me "the class" was a lot more than half empty or less than half full, depending on which way you choose to look at it.

But why is this even the question? The real question should be why is class attendance down so much in the first place?

Junkster said...

Lin said...
Ask yourself: Did everyone in the NT think Jesus' message was 'Good News'?

Good point. His message, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand", was indeed Good News whether or not everyone thought it was.


Word verification: Zorla. Sounds like a name from a Harry Potter book.

concernedSBCer said...

Fence-climber......I like it! Mr. Nass: Is that better than "kool-aid drinker?"

Just askin'
:)

New BBC Open Forum said...

concernedsbcer,

I believe that would be acceptable. After all, "Pastor" led by example, right?

concernedSBCer said...

Karen: You've got mail.

concernedSBCer said...

Thank you, King Nass.
:)

bromichael said...

First of all, thank you, NBBCOF, for welcoming me back. I hesitate every time I write for fear of assuming a role that's not for me and for concern of being unduly distracted from serving where I am. God is blessing in our immediate context and making this season of service easily our most treasured. Though I sometimes feel convicted with comments to offer, perhaps you can understand why I might waver.

I trust my disappointment over the lack of discussion at that time about the deepest of spiritual issues in this topic is understood. As Baptists we have devolved over time to the point that what most naturally fans the flames of our debate is purely organizational, revolving around buildings and money. Through much of this thread's early posts that's all I saw, and it bothered me. These are definitely becoming the days Scripture foretells--days of doctrinal compromise at best and carnal apostasy at worst, and whether from a laptop or a pulpit when you have the opportunity to faithfully stand firm for the rightful Head of the church and against what undermines His glory and mission you better stand. Make no mistake... my commentary here constitutes a desire on my part to be compassionate but uncompromising toward what matters most, and the glory of Christ in His church is what matters most.

I read as "jack bauer" responded to my commentary, bringing relevant peripheral information to the idea of what it is to be a head of something. First of all, Jack, I affirm the Lord's calling for me to be the head of my wife and family. It's my responsibility of God, if from no where else than the book of Ephesians, to be the spiritual leader of my family, this under Christ my Head. But can you honestly not see the wording of your children's second prayer guide as an obvious affront to the role of Christ in His church? You've equated being a head to being a leader, and you are correct to a real degree. So why not connect the role of pastor to the term "Leader" or even "Shepherd" or "Undershepherd," which I prefer? Why connect the role of pastor to the one term written of and reserved specifically for Christ in His church? Honestly, Jack, why do you think your previous pastor referred to BBC as pastor-led and not pastor-headed? I'd venture the guess that he humbly had in proper perspective his place in church life, refusing even in wording to assume a role that isn't his. Believe me, dear friends, there are many believers who have subtly fallen for the idea that a pastor or other personalities head their churches. Maybe that's why revival and spiritual awakening have become so elusive... why carnality reigns inside so many church walls... why so few Christians live their faith outside their church walls.

By the way, Jack, do you know what you call a religious or spiritual group whose entire identity revolves around one of its own leaders? You call it a cult, and I'm sorry to say that cult-like qualities have been invading the saved body of Christ. Insist on holiness, brethren, and the kind of humility that boasts only of Christ. Anything else represents Kool-aid you'll be sorry you drank.

gmommy said...

BroMichael,
You are freaking me out......I may give Baptist churches another try if this (and I believe you) is your heart.
The more my eyes are opened to what is going on in churches everywhere...not just BBC....it makes me sick at heart to see ministers melting
(sometimes innocently at first)
into the current trend of twisting scripture and being so ME centered.

Anyway, Michael,
thank you for your articulation of the TRUTH and don't be surprised if you see a visitors card with gmommy on it:)

amazed said...

Bromichael: I sure wish I lived in your part of Kentucky.

concernedSBCer said...

BroMichael said: "Insist on holiness, brethren, and the kind of humility that boasts only of Christ."

AMEN. Put this in your quote book, truthseekers.

Welcome back, BroMichael.

Junkster said...

A worthwhile quote I encountered while "blog surfing":

I will not quarrel with you about my opinions; only see that your heart is right toward God, that you know and love the Lord Jesus Christ; that you love your neighbor, and walk as your Master walked, and I desire no more. I am sick of opinions; am weary to bear them; my soul loathes this frosty food. Give me solid and substantial religion; give me a humble, gentle lover of God and man; a man full of mercy and good faith, without partiality and without hypocrisy; a man laying himself out in the work of faith, the patience of hope, the labor of love. Let my soul be with these Christians wheresoever they are, and whatsoever opinion they are of.
---John Wesley

oc said...

Bromichael said:
Anything else represents Kool-aid you'll be sorry you drank.

And I say:
Amen. Put that in your quote book, truthseekers. Oh yeah, it's already in there. But we're not allowed to say it. :)

It's the preferred beverage of the BFGL. The Blindly Following Gaines League.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Oops. Looks like "gmommy" and I were on the same page -- the wrong page, but the same page. I think we both thought "bromichael" was our more recent pastor visitor from Bartlett ("gmommy" was getting all excited!), but "bromichael" is the young pastor from Kentucky who visited us a few weeks ago. You'll have to forgive us. Some days we're slow.

Karen said...

NASS,

We're surfing the same brain wave again! I thought BroMichael was Michael Priest as well. That's why I said I would attend Bartlett Baptist this weekend. (that's been changed as well, but I plan to visit there before the end of my search for a new church home).

I response to the person who asked if we are members of Bellevue who blog here: I've been a member since 1977 and it pains me deeply to have had to severe myself from the fellowship I used to enjoy there. This is not fun for anyone involved - I hope you don't get the impression that it is.

karen

johnthebaptist said...

My family and I visited Cordova Baptist this past Sunday. We felt very welcomed. We used the hymnals and the music was very good and worshipful.
The church isn't large and seems to have a loving spirit. It does have a little more seniors but does have other ages groups and a small youth group. None of this bothers us.
The pastor, while not a dynamic preacher, he is a dynamic pastor. He has a love for the people and has a pastor's heart. It shows!
I just like the guy. His theology is right on target.

The music minister is good and they have a small choir that sits with the congregation when the pastor starts preaching.

The youth pastor is the pastor's son. At first this sort of bothered me but after talking to him, I like him too.

Anyway, we will go back and may join if the Lord leads.

ezekiel said...

JTB,

That was my impression when I met him as well. Knows his bible pretty well to. Shepherd's heart. The sort of man that is there when you need him.

johnthebaptist said...

ezekiel said...
JTB,

That was my impression when I met him as well. Knows his bible pretty well to. Shepherd's heart. The sort of man that is there when you need him.


JTB: Thanks zek! It is good to get a confirmation of someone.

One of the long time members said that the pastor stayed all night with a family while in the hospital. It wasn't even from his church.

He has been there 15 years and
the people seem to love him. I can see why.

Word Verification: boogrwwn. Not sure what to think or say about that. : )

ezekiel said...

JTB,
I met him at a funeral. Seemed kind and compassionate. Aproachable and willing to talk. I have been considering visiting based on that. It would not surprise me to see him anywhere anyone needed him. I am pretty sure his heart extends well beyond his membership rolls and offering plate. Let us know how things go!

amazed said...

In view of the large salaries being collected by SG and JP, maybe he meant to say, "I'm going to teach Bellevue to be a paying church." It surely would be more appropriate.

servingalovinglord said...

Do you all hold it against SG for not having the ability to know each and everyone of his congregation personally? The past two posts referring to the Pastor over at Cordova Baptist have me wondering if this is another issue you all have of him. Do you even know SG personally? I chuckle at the thought of it even being a possiblility for him to know very many personally. It is kind of a given with the numbers (posted here) we have that he could know very many of us personally. Did Bro. Rogers know the majority of the congregation personally. (only asked because you compare SG to Bro. Rogers constantly)

servingalovinglord said...

Do you truly know the exact amount that SG and JP are receiving as Salaries?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Dr. Lee knew practically every one of the then 9000 members of BBC by name. Would it be too much to ask for Steve Gaines to learn some of our names? He has stated, "There are 30,000 members in this church. I can't be accessible to all of them!"

First of all, there are only about 18,000 members of record, and second, why can't he be "accessible"? It's not like 18,000 people are going to be knocking his door down.

But, no, that's not the main issue at all.

servingalovinglord said...

do you all have a lot of other members here that post or is it just the same few? If you truly have the truth on SG, why is it you are unable to get enough people (10 or so just won't cut it) to take care of the situation. I attend there every Sunday AM, Sunday PM, and Wed. I am not seeing a lot of or sensing tension from the people I know and meet. Is it something I am missing? Am I just blind? Are all of the members there just pretending to be happy? Oh and I also believe that God cleans house too! Could just be what took place in the past year!!

oc said...

serving says,
Do you truly know the exact amount that SG and JP are receiving as Salaries?


oc says:
No. Illuminate us. Please.

servingalovinglord said...

Have you gone up to SG and introduced yourself? If so, what was his response? Did he turn on his heels in disgust at you even trying to speak to him. What do you want him to do? Invite each and everyone of us over to his house?

KellyS said...

bromichael said on 11:46 AM, August 17, 2007:

so few Christians live their faith outside their church walls.


O' how my heart is grieve that I am guilty of this far too often. Even now with tears in my eyes, I cry within my soul that I am not more Christ-like, that my faith and my witness is so weak. I yearn so much for others to see Christ, instead of me. O' my Lord, help me, I pray.

WatchingHISstory said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
servingalovinglord said...

OC: I have no idea. That is truly not in the forefront of my mind. I only ask because you all bring it up alot. Why do you all speak of their money without any knowledge of the amounts. This is where the jealousy I mentioned last night comes into play. If your church agrees to pay a pastor a certain amount than so be it. Oh and I hope he gets a raise this year too!!! (that was said with a heart that I hope he receives a blessing just like I would love to receive in my job) And as much as you would like to think otherwise in some areas it is a job. A high calling, a huge responsiblity, an enormous answering to the Lord, I truly don't think he takes it lightly. Everyday he puts his pants on just like you do. He will answer for his decisions....wrong or right, and he knows that. I am just glad that whether I agree with decisions that he/committees make, I can still be an encourager and pray for and support my pastor instead of tear him apart. It goes back to what I said last night. The Lord knows my heart. I believe that with the enormous example Bellevue has been in the past and will be in the future, that if the Lord saw it as a huge stumbling block things will be done. Yes, I know the Lord's timing it not always quick, but maybe the stumbling blocks are weeding themselves out.

Truett said...

Hello

I have studied Bellevue through the years, especially the ministry of Dr Lee and Dr. Rogers.

Not only did Dr Lee know those who attended Bellevue, he had pet names for many of them.

He worked hard in this regard visiting on average 10 people a day thru out his 33 year ministry.

I once asked a longtime Bellevue Member if Dr. Lee ever visited him....he replied “He came by to see me once at 7:30 in the morning!".

Dr Rogers as anyone would attest was as kind and loving as any person could possibly be. I met him on four different occasions....and he made me feel like I was the most important person in the world. I miss him!

When he died, I remember reading that a long time Bellevue member had only spoke to him twice in 28 years.....she was not complaining......just goes to show that being able to spend time with the Pastor of a Mega Church is not always easy.

That said....Mega Church members still need to be able to speak to their pastor when necessary.

oc said...

serving,
you brought it up, not me.

BTW, Why don't we know what he makes? Why is it a secret? Do you not think that is strange, in light that the congregation is paying the bill? You don't have a problem with that?

WatchingHISstory said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ezekiel said...

servingalovinglord,

From experience I can tell you that when you feed your sheep or your cattle for a while they start to take on personalities and names. I am not sure just how many one man can handle. I guess it depends on the man.

But I can tell you that no matter the size of the herd, if the water is bitter and the hay is molded, the sheep won't eat or drink. You can't get to know them by driving by with an escort and throwing a bale out the window of your car. Can't feed them hiding out at the bunkhouse either. Nor hiding behind the "shield". He is never going to know them that way. But it does make it easier to shear them........


John 10:27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 21:15So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

oc said...

Watching,
Do the voices in your head bother others?

sickofthelies said...

watching,

Do you have a hobby?

Golf, gardening, bird watching, sodoku?

Many retirees find a hobby fills up their time and keeps their mind sharp and keeps them out of trouble.

oc said...

watching said:
does the voice in my head bother you? It should. I am asking legitimate questions. Answer the question, please?

oc says:

It's the voice in your soul that is the real concern. Quit playing with the toys in the attic.

Just sayin',
oc.

sickofthelies said...

Watching,

Do the voices in your head bother your co-workers?

Just wonderin'

Lin said...

"Am I just blind?"

Yes. But I pray that will change

"Are all of the members there just pretending to be happy?"

What does happiness have to do with anything? Where in scripture do you see a promise of 'happiness'. Do you know how shallow that sounds? You are happy to have a pastor who ignores scripture when it is inconvenient?

Lots of people are 'happy' in seeker/emergent/apostasy type churches. What does that have to do with scripture? My friend, read Matthew 7 and tremble.

" Oh and I also believe that God cleans house too!"

Better be careful here. In Nazi Germany only the true Christians left when they had the pastors sign loyalty oaths to Hilter. And amazingly, it was only a few just as we see in Matthew 7. It was only a few pastors who refused to sign, too. They all spent time in concentration camps or were hanged.


" Could just be what took place in the past year!! "

The remnant church left you. A true Christian cannot sit under the teaching of a false teacher. One who ignores scripture.

You may want to read 2 Thess. Pay close attention to 2:11. It 'may' shed some light for you on what is happening. Then again, it may not.

Yes, what I have written is bold. But, it comes from a circumcised heart who is grieving over the plethora of false teachers out there who are wolves in sheeps clothing.

oc said...

watching,
whenever you come up with a legitimate question, without you working hard at being a psychiatric case study, I will attempt to answer. In the mean time, go back to your attic, and play with your toys.

Get you some help.

servingalovinglord said...

amazed said: In view of the large salaries being collected by SG and JP, maybe he meant to say, "I'm going to teach Bellevue to be a paying church." It surely would be more appropriate.


Oc: I was referring to this post. I thought possibly it was public knowledge before we started attending there. That's all.

oc said...

Watching,

Just a thought. You said you work at Fed Ex. Are you dealing with hazardous materials, by any chance?

servingalovinglord said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
servingalovinglord said...

oops! typo: meant "man should NOT serve as a minister"

oc said...

serving,

No, I avoided no question at all.
For months, 'watching' has tried to make AR the culprit in order to take the heat off for SG being spiritually lazy and not doing what he should have done. Are you now saying that this is ok, since the former pastor did not realize what was going on? It is well known that SG knew it for 6 months, and did nothing to protect the youngsters in the church. Now, would you be willing to pony up your kid for potential sodomy?
Sorry, but that's the real deal.
Furthermore, I don't need details. I don't want the details. If I got the details, I would probably be homocidal. If you want that, then you try to get that. But if that's your thing, then you are disgusting and I wonder where your heart is at.

You are needing some help yourself.
Just sayin'.
oc.

Piglet said...

servingalovinglord said

Watching asked you a question and both you OC and you Sick avoided it by question his state of mind. How about an answer? Why did it only surface under Dr. Gaines (tired of referring to him with initials). You cannot tell me that Dr. Rogers worked with this man for 34 years and never knew anything. As godly, as he was, he probably knew that it was washed under the blood. Oh and do you all know for a fact that it was truly sodomy that took place? Do you all have all of the details? Why then did the courts not pursue this man? Why is there not a case against him. I truly believe in repentance, forgiveness, but also consequences. No the man should serve in a position of a minister, but he also does not deserve to be condemned. What do you all base your forgiveness on? I hope the man and his family are seeking help together and working to build up the relationship (the Lord can heal) and move on. Our lovely news and media, oh yeah and some of our own sure did a number on them. And if you think the victim was not affected I strongly will disagree with ya!

Piglet says:

If you'd been reading for very long you would know that WatchingHistory is a certifiable nut who has visions and growls at his wife in a freaky voice....he now travels the midsouth area carrying his "message" that he received in his vision to any minister who will listen, nod politely and then bid him farewell as they lock the door and copy down his license number.

His goal? To have all the world admit that AR is somehow responsible for PW, I suppose. Like that would change ANYTHING if it were even true, which it IS NOT.

BTW, PW admitted that he'd NEVER told AR and that the reason was that he KNEW he would lose his job. And he would have!

Once PW's son had kids and realized he didn't want his own father around his own kids - I suppose he realized he shouldn't be a minister and around OURS either. He never filed a police report because he didn't want his dad in JAIL, just not in the MINISTRY so he forced PW to come forward - but unfortunately, instead of removing PW, dear SG gave him a RAISE.

And speaking of money, the fellow in charge of finance at BBC whose initials are CP left his job disgusted with SG's salary which he stated was approaching half a million dollars (maybe this includes benefits). Where have you been?

But, of course, SG won't verify this for us. However, if you want any ministry or leadership position at BBC he'll make double sure he knows what YOU make and give.

Trying to get this and other information out to the tithing membership has been difficult since BBC denied us a mailing list or documents in contempt of the STATE LAW. So what are they hiding? HMMM?

Let me know if you have any other questions.

fogmachine said...

Steve Gaines has a package between $450,000 - $500,000.

This is absurd.
No wonder the church can't let the sheep know what's going on.

Clearly there are 5,000 people missing from Bellevue on any given Sunday from a year ago. Nobody can deny that. Just look around the empty sanctuary every Sunday. Only one service has been needed since January of this year.

It's amazing that the leadership does not hurt for the sheep that are leaving. Instead, "it's good bye and don't let the door hit you on the way out". There are many who are still exiting each week.

For the ones who love the way things are now all I can say is WOW!

I hope you are not the pastor.

sickofthelies said...

Serving,

The ONLY reason that PW is NOT in jail is because his son did not press charges against him. The police don't just go around arresting people until someone comes forward, to THEM and makes a statement to THEM...

Now, as far as your asking us if we are sure it was sodomy, please, just stop right now and go and look up the word in the dictionary.
Just do it..you will be surprised to learn just what all it entails.
Enough said about THAT.

Even IF Pw's sin was " under the blood" you never never never never leave a sexual pervert where he can get to other children. Being forgiven for his sin and being around other children are two separate issues. Why do you think that the victim did not want his father around the grandchildren?

Don't go there with me. If you want us all to forgive him and then leave our kids alone with him, you go first, ok?

Anyone who knows Dr. R. knows that he would not have tolerated a sexual pervert around children. Dr. R. loved his sheep, especially his lambs.

Lin said...

"You cannot tell me that Dr. Rogers worked with this man for 34 years and never knew anything."

That is what PW said. Strange how the Gaines supporters are dead set on impuning the character of a dead man who cannot defend himself. Really is low.

" As godly, as he was, he probably knew that it was washed under the blood."

Scripturally that won't wash. Check out 1 Timothy 2 very seriously. An elder (minister) must be above reproach to the OUTSIDE. He can be forgiven, restored to the Body after repentance but he can NEVER be a minister again.

Dear Friend, you need to study scripture before you comment here. You certainly are not learning it at BBC.

oc said...

piglet,
you tell 'em what's happenin'.
Good job.

amazed said...

Apparently, Dr. Rogers was kept in the dark regarding PW but I cannot understand how he was duped so badily on SG. After all, they were friends from SG days in Jackson, Tn. Dr. Rogers invited him to preach at BBC many times. Does the brotherhood of preachers tend to cause one to be trusting to a fault when it comes to another preacher?

oc said...

amazed said:
Does the brotherhood of preachers tend to cause one to be trusting to a fault when it comes to another preacher?


oc says:
No. People are human. You may think that I am a wonderful person, an hour at a time. :)

Just sayin'.
oc.

amazed said...

By the way, it is beyond ridiculous for a preacher to make anywhere near a half million dollars a year when the average church member can only dream of that amount of income. Talk about a disconnect from reality.

New BBC Open Forum said...

serving wrote:

"You cannot tell me that Dr. Rogers worked with this man for 34 years and never knew anything."

Well, Mrs. Rogers has told us that Dr. Rogers didn't know, and PW told her he didn't know, and that's good enough for me. So drop it!

If anyone EVER comes on here and speculates about the nature of this or any other victim's abuse, your comments will be deleted, and you are at risk of being banned. It's none of your business! You're talking about this victim like he's a piece of meat. He's a living, breathing person with feelings. Just stop to consider that before you spout off again!

"Watching asked you a question and both you OC and you Sick avoided it by question his state of mind."

If you had been around here any time at all you'd know that "watchinghissssssstory" has been banned from posting here, but he continues to drop in from time to time anyway. The man has no honor whatsoever. Therefore, as soon as I find any comment from him it is deleted. I have asked before and will ask everyone again not to feed the trolls.

amazed said...

OC: I really do believe that preachers will take care of each other, just as you cannot get a doctor to testify against another doctor in a court of law. They just will not do it.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Well, now that my blood pressure has returned to some semblance of a normal reading, I've read the rest of tonight's comments. I got sidetracked at 6:20 and penned my previous comment, but I now see that several of you answered better and more completely than I did. Thank you all for trying to help "serving" understand. Something tells me it's a waste of time, but y'all did a splendid job.

oc said...

Amazed said:

OC: I really do believe that preachers will take care of each other, just as you cannot get a doctor to testify against another doctor in a court of law. They just will not do it.


oc says:
That is sad. A doctor may not have Jesus as his Lord. But the preacher does, supposedly. If it is as you state it is, with preachers lying for preachers, then it is all hell broken loose.

However, I still think there are those who stand and are willing to die for the truth. No matter what. All is not lost.
He reigns.

New BBC Open Forum said...

amazed wrote:

"Apparently, Dr. Rogers was kept in the dark regarding PW but I cannot understand how he was duped so badily on SG."

Nor can I.

"I really do believe that preachers will take care of each other, just as you cannot get a doctor to testify against another doctor in a court of law. They just will not do it."

You nailed it. It's the "good old boys club" mentality.

johnthebaptist said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
johnthebaptist said...

serving said...

The past two posts referring to the Pastor over at Cordova Baptist have me wondering if this is another issue you all have of him.


JTB: this has nothing to do with Steve. I was talking about a wonderful man of God and his gifts.
Cordova is a nice little church.

No one expects Steve or anyone else to know everyone at BBC. No one could.

johnthebaptist said...

serving said....

only asked because you compare SG to Bro. Rogers constantly)



JTB: sorry, our mistake. There is no comparison between these two men. Not even close.

gmommy said...
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gmommy said...

what an evil night.
psycho Charles speaks of a child molestor and where to have dinner in the same thought process.
I have to vomit.

concernedSBCer said...

Hey Nass: Isn't it too hot to be out on that lake? You might have to anyway...just troll around, feel the wind in your face....

johnthebaptist said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

serving,

Here's something to keep you busy. Three threads back someone commented that he didn't know but one "pedophile" (and PW is, by definition, a sexual predator). So I proposed this little exercise.

I said I bet he knew a lot more than one, and I invited everyone to check out these sites. Enter your own zip code and just see what you find:

National Sex Offender Registry

Tennessee Sexual Offender Registry

Then remember this. Probably less than one-tenth of the sexual predators in this country are on those lists. You won't find PW or Tommy Gilmore on that list. One has to be convicted of a crime before one's name is added to the list.

Think about this when you look at all the maps with all the little colored dots, each showing the address of a convicted sexual predator. Then imagine ten times more dots within the same space and come back here and tell everyone you know "only one" pedophile. I think you'll find it a sobering exercise.

johnthebaptist said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
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