What thoughts crossed your mind when you heard Steve Gaines utter these words from the pulpit in 2005?In 2005 Bellevue's Annual Love Offering was earmarked for a new prayer chapel.
2005 Love Offering
Since that time, little has been said about a prayer chapel. Some who saw the plans claimed there was a prayer labyrinth in the plans. I've been trying for a long time to confirm this and only recently acquired what appears to be an architect's rendering of the Bellevue Prayer Chapel.
Prayer Chapel Plans
While the plan appears to include a labyrinth, upon closer inspection you can see, at least in these plans, it's really a circular room with three concentric rows of pews and kneeling benches. There are four doors off the main circular corridor leading to this room, and there's space in the center for a sculpture or some other focal point. While not a labyrinth per se, it does seem to have been inspired by the same.
Others who claim to have seen the plans have said the plans they saw specifically included a "prayer labyrinth" which was labeled as such, so perhaps it was removed from the original plans or there were more than one set of plans made.
However, the idea of a separate prayer chapel, especially in light of the recent budget shortfalls, begs a number of questions.
1. Why does Bellevue need a whole separate building devoted to "prayer"? We already have a 7500-seat auditorium that's open during the day as well as a chapel. Why the need to go somewhere special to pray?
2. Would the prayer chapel be open 24/7? If so, how safe could this be?
3. Who will "man" it? Paid or volunteer staff? (There don't appear to be any offices in this particular plan.)
4. There's a large 100-seat classroom/auditorium at the rear of the building. Again, Bellevue already has a whole building full of classrooms. Why spend money on more classroom space?
And speaking of prayer, here are the Personal Prayer Guide and the first two "assignments" for the "Pastor's Pit Crew," the children's prayer ministry that was begun by the new Director of Prayer. Is this what Steve Gaines meant when he said he was going to teach Bellevue to be a "praying church"?Personal Prayer Guide
Assignment 1
Assignment 2
502 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 502 Newer› Newest»Steve Gaines has said "I'm not accountable to anyone in the church, I'm only accountable to God."
I guess if you act like a celebrity people will treat you like one.
Many are overly impressed while in the presence of celebrities. Many like to worship stardom.
God and God alone, is worthy of our worship.
jtb wrote:
"The more you write the more you are convincing people that you are a little nuts."
That has to be the understatement of the year! Now, please I'm asking everyone to ignore the nut!
Nass: Yes sir.
:)
I'm sorry I offended you JTB.....I am.
I don't understand anyone who makes the violation of a child more repulsive by discussing the details.
I do understand personally why this type of "discussion" further violates and wounds a victim.
I meant may you both never EVER come to know this horror in a personal way.
ignore the fragmented sentence on end of the last post. I forgot to erase.
Charles Stanley has an incredible message on accountability on today's broadcast.
If you Google "Intouch Ministries" and go to today's radio broadcast you can listen to it. (Perhaps NASS can help link it)
Friends,
I know it is sometimes difficult to refrain from responding to the remarks of certain posters who have been asked not to post ... I certainly know I have gotten pretty frustrated at times by the things said by those who come with the agenda to antagonize. But just as as it is disrespectful for those folks to post after NASS has asked them not to, it is disrespectful for us to respond to them after being asked not to. Please don't feed the trolls ... soon enough, NASS will remove their remarks.
Word verification: pawjefis. (But my paw's name was Lester, not Jef.)
JTB said: "I don't know what I would do if something happened to my son like that. I would probaly be typing this from jail."
ME TOO, JTB. It is unthinkable. My respect and admiration goes out to those on this blog who have lived through that horror and continued to lead a full and happy life, resting in God as their Father. I think they can all teach the rest of us about the importance of protecting our children with our diligence and allowing God to heal our wounds. There is much emotion when we even consider what happened in the PW situation, and just as bad, what could have happened.
fog wrote:
"Charles Stanley has an incredible message on accountability on today's broadcast.
"If you Google 'Intouch Ministries' and go to today's radio broadcast you can listen to it. (Perhaps NASS can help link it)"
Gladly! Anything to change the subject!
Here.
Back to the thread topic......I'm just wondering....WHY do the children of BBC need a prayer guide? My children didn't need one......
People excuse themselves and salve their consciences by saying that they didn't know details of the abuse. It's sick. As if any kid or adolescent is going to sit with an adult and tell them explicit details - we don't even admit the details to ourselves. It took me over a year in weekly counseling before I could even make veiled references to some of the details with my counselor. And when I was a kid, and told the music minister about it, no one even so much as asked whether I might like to talk with some woman in the church. It's not even thinkable to imagine that I could have spoken of details with a man. And yet, it's just one more way of blaming the victim. They essentially blame the kid because the kid didn't spill all the details because that way they can pretend that, if only they had known the ugly details, they would have done something. It's what they tell themselves so that they don't have to feel guilty. They pretend they didn't know. And then later they say, well if it had really been that bad, why didn't she say so? Yet, studies show that, in reality, the WORSE the abuse, the LESS likely someone is to talk about it. Why? Because it's so utterly and completely dehumanizing.
Even after admitting that he knew the education minister had "sexual contact" with me as a minor, and even after admitting that the education minister himself had told him he was worried some member of the congregation had seen him in a "compromising position" with me when I was a kid, and even after admitting that I myself had talked with him about it at a piano lesson (actually it was more like hysterically crying than talking), the music minister still excused the fact that he did nothing on the ground that he didn't know the extent of the contact and that he didn't know the seriousness of it. Is there EVER a time when a minister's "sexual contact with a minor church girl is NOT something serious???
And even as recently as a couple months ago, the long-time attorney for the Baptist General Convention of Texas was justifying this inaction on the ground that the music minister had only "limited information". Huh??? Is it any wonder that churches in Texas don't do anything about clergy sex abuse when the guy the BGCT sends out to help churches take care of these "problems" (and who has been advising the BGCT itself for over a decade) still thinks "knowledge" about a minister's "sexual contact with a minor" constitutes mere "limited information"? I guess he thinks that if kids don't provide the ugly details, no one is obligated to do anything.
And fogmachine: Charles Stanley on accountability??? Please. I didn't hear the broadcast....but that's probably just as well, given what my experience at FBC-Atlanta was.
concernedSBCer said...
Back to the thread topic......I'm just wondering....WHY do the children of BBC need a prayer guide? My children didn't need one......
JTB: I don't think a prayer guide is wrong in an of itself. That BBC prayer guide is wrong.
Everyone prayer guide I have ever seen was never so self centered. It was always Jesus centered. They always mentioned the missionaries around the world too.
concernedsbcer said:
JTB said: "I don't know what I would do if something happened to my son like that. I would probaly be typing this from jail."
ME TOO, JTB. It is unthinkable. My respect and admiration goes out to those on this blog who have lived through that horror and continued to lead a full and happy life, resting in God as their Father. I think they can all teach the rest of us about the importance of protecting our children with our diligence and allowing God to heal our wounds. There is much emotion when we even consider what happened in the PW situation, and just as bad, what could have happened.
9:53 PM, August 17, 2007
oc says:
That is it for me. If you have or know of a loved one who does not know the love of a father, get a hold of me. I met the Father, because of the lack of having a father in my own life, I trusted Him, the Heavenly Father. Although my earthly father meant harm to me, my pain has meant salvation to me. Because through the pain,and beyond it, I have met the real Father, the One who loves. No matter what. No matter if I fail.
Just sayin'.
oc.
And fogmachine: Charles Stanley on accountability??? Please. I didn't hear the broadcast....but that's probably just as well, given what my experience at FBC-Atlanta was.
10:18 PM, August 17, 2007
I gotta agree with Christa here on Charles Stanley. Not only about the pervert minister on his staff that he refused to tell the congregation about and tried to intimidate Christa and others about it but ALSO...
We are talking about a Baptist pastor who got a divorce while in the pulpit and did not step down.
There are other things that really bother me about Stanley and his mega wealth and celebrity but I will stop here.
Sorry friends, but 1 Timothy 2 applies to Charles Stanley, too.
These days it is safer to read the scriptures and let the Holy Spirit teach you!!
Here is the text of a sermon by Charles Finney on the topic of rebuking those who sin. Some very relevant and practical advice for us all. It is one of those sermons that will both encourage you as you see so much to agree with, and convict you as you see how much better we could be at following God's ways.
I go bowling and come home to read what happened tonight. Good thing I went to Home Depot the other day and stocked up on duct tape. I needed it tonight!
Anyone who thinks its ok for a minister to molest his son and not be held accountable for his actions is seriously, seriously messed up upstairs and needs to check into the mental institution in Bolivar.
"did it occur to you that the Lord left when we left? A lot of godly people have left. All the ones I spoke with they said and I quote " couldn't hear God there anymore".
God cleans house. He moves the precious things out first so when He really starts to clean, they won't get hurt."
What??
Would you mind clearifying this alittle more for me, as someone that still worships at BBC???
I hope I missed something and there is more to it. Thanks
christa and lin,
Thanks for informing me.
Did anyone hear whether Mark Dougharty still works for Charles Stanley or did he in fact leave?
Memphis,
I believe that someone posted that God was " clearing house" at BBC, referring to those of us who no longer worship there. I suppose that he was referring to Mrs. R. too? Pretty arrogant, don't you think?
Billie Tapp comes on here and posts that Mrs. R. has just been " led astray" by her friends, and that is why she is not worshipping at BBC anymore. Now THAT is a REALLY arrogant statement, don't you think? The implication is that while Ms. Tapp is in full control of her thinking and reasoning abilities, Mrs. R. is NOT...since she, ( and not Ms. Billie) can be " led astray".
Just for the record, Memphis, not for one second do I think that you
are not being blessed with your worship at BBC, BUT i DO think that you need to be more discerning. :)
Just sayin!
fog wrote:
"Did anyone hear whether Mark Dougharty still works for Charles Stanley or did he in fact leave?"
MD has indeed left the FBCA building. (His voice mail there may still work.) I doubt we'll ever know the truth about what transpired, but the word is he'll be coming back to Memphis. His house was withdrawn from the market, and he's reportedly told people that it was "a mistake" for him to have gone there in the first place. (Not sure if that would be one of those "mistakes of the heart" or just a "mistake of the mind.") I'm more inclined to think it was they who came to the conclusion that with all that happened here that it was "a mistake" for them to have called him. Either way, that must be the shortest-lived associate pastorate of a megachurch in history!
Oddly, no one at FBCA will admit that he was ever hired, that he works there now, or that he no longer works there. They've feigned ignorance when asked if MD works there. But if you call and ask for him, they've been connecting people to his voice mail.
Let's all call FBC atlanta and leave a message on his voice mail.
:)
Maybe the fence around the FBC-Atlanta was too tall for him to climb over.
:)
nbbcof,
Before Mark left, he addressed the church and said it was a God thing that led him away from Bellevue.
This sounds eerily similar to what another staff member said about a year ago when he left the finance office for another job here in Memphis and then came back one week later. I remember him telling the church it was a God thing for him to leave Bellevue. As far as I know, he's still in the finance office at Bellevue.
Perhaps Mark will be back on staff at Bellevue if not already.
Don't believe it can't happen because anything can happen these days.
"But if you call and ask for him, they've been connecting people to his voice mail."
At my former mega, they are still connecting callers to the voice mail of people who have been gone for 2 years.
What does that tell you? No one knows what is going on. It is very typical.
Fog: It gives me no pleasure to speak verifiable facts about any minister like that. Some would even say it is hateful. But you need to know who you are listening to.
Lifeway even published a Sunday School lesson from Stanley which included 'self forgiveness'. I still cannot find that in the Bible but can certainly understand how it would benefit Stanley to develop such a concept.
Lin: I've seen other instances of ministers who develop sermons that espouse beliefs that serve only themselves - as I think some of you at Bellevue have as well. Three months AFTER I reported my perpetrator to church, state and national leaders - along with the fact that another minister had substantiated my report - the perpetrator was standing in the pulpit of a new church talking about what a blessing it was to be there to work with them in their children's ministry. And then he gave his sermon titled "What's so Great About Grace" - and a creepier sermon on grace I've never heard. He talked about how his body is just his "earth suit." So, when the "temptations of the flesh" and the "accusations of the world" get heavy, he knows that this isn't really him because, thanks to grace, "Tommy's already in the heavens with God." I guess in his mind, that's what's so great about grace. I guess he figures it means that whatever he does with his "earth-suit" is of no consequence. I've actually got a recording of that sermon. But I can't listen to it. It makes my skin crawl.
"I've seen other instances of ministers who develop sermons that espouse beliefs that serve only themselves - as I think some of you at Bellevue have as well."
Nah! Preachers really do that? At Bellevue?
"Three months AFTER I reported my perpetrator to church, state and national leaders - along with the fact that another minister had substantiated my report - the perpetrator was standing in the pulpit of a new church talking about what a blessing it was to be there to work with them in their children's ministry."
Reply: _____ unprintable _____
"He talked about how his body is just his 'earth suit.' So, when the 'temptations of the flesh' and the 'accusations of the world' get heavy, he knows that this isn't really him because, thanks to grace, 'Tommy's already in the heavens with God.'"
Hmmm... I wouldn't count my chickens just yet.
"I guess in his mind, that's what's so great about grace. I guess he figures it means that whatever he does with his 'earth-suit' is of no consequence.
Then likewise, I suppose by extension that means whatever someone else does to his sorry "earth-suit" is of no consequence either. I have a few ideas!
"I've actually got a recording of that sermon. But I can't listen to it. It makes my skin crawl."
It makes my skin crawl just thinking about it! Eeeeeeeewwww!!!
I don't usually use the ampified, but some how we just have to get past the whole "Grace" argument to justify our sin, and start understanding how it is so badly mis-used.
Jude 1:4 Amplified Bible (AMP)
1:4For certain men have crept in stealthily [[a]gaining entrance secretly by a side door]. Their doom was predicted long ago, ungodly (impious, profane) persons who pervert the grace (the spiritual blessing and favor) of our God into lawlessness and wantonness and immorality, and disown and deny our sole Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
If we look for it, we start to find it in a lot of places we didn't know to look for it. Grace is not a liscense to sin.
The NASB puts it this way.
Jude 1:4For certain persons havecrept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
We should think about this when we start talking of "under the blood" and "covered by Grace"
Amplified says it this way.
1 Peter 2:8And, A Stone that will cause stumbling and a Rock that will give [men] offense; they stumble because they disobey and disbelieve [God's] Word, as those [who reject Him] were destined (appointed) to do.
1 Peter 2:8 (New American Standard Bible)
8and,
"A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE";
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
what is anti-nomenism?
I googled this and couldn't find what I wanted but I think important for some of you to realize this is a pervasive doctrine with some, maybe many, Baptists. My dad was an adherent to this. Basically it is a belief that as long as you keep the doctrines of the church pure, it doesn't matter how you live in the 'earth suit' (interesting phrase)! Personal behavior is not on the spiritual radar! Other serious theology mentalities can expand on this, but I know from personal experience it is out there. Part of the influence that at one point caused me to 'search' the pentecostal churches for 'holiness' in a practical life approach. Interesting that as a young person I could never find peace about the separation of a personal life lived 'unto God' and my church life.
well, duh, I didn't have a thot that I might have misspelled it!
Antinomianism (from the Greek αντι, "against" + νομος, "law"), or lawlessness (in the Greek Bible: ανομια, which is "unlawful"), in theology, is the idea that members of a particular religious group are under no obligation to obey the laws of ethics or morality as presented by religious authorities. Antinomianism is the polar opposite of legalism, the notion that obedience to a code of religious law is necessary for salvation.
The term has become a point of contention among opposed religious authorities. Few groups or sects explicitly call themselves "antinomian", but the charge is often levelled by some sects against competing sects.
antinomianism: anti-against; nomian-law, having to do with the law. It's generally the belief that the Mosaic law has nothing to do with the Christian. There are shades of this position. Some believe the moral law still stands as regulatory in the Christian's life, but not Jewish ceremonial law (Levitical). Others believe that both, especially in terms of Sabbath keeping are still in effect for the Christian. A pure antinomian makes a separation between conduct and position in Christ. Some are accused of antinomianism who simply believe that it's not the decalogue that will keep the Christian from sin, rather that the Christian's conduct is motivated by love for God because of the grace given, not adherence to a set of rules..or law...rather the law of Christ...which is love for God and love for our fellow man, which if practiced rightly, fulfills the law.
NASS said:
Then likewise, I suppose by extension that means whatever someone else does to his sorry "earth-suit" is of no consequence either. I have a few ideas!
oc says:
Oh! Let me at his "earth suit". Please.
Part 4 of Ray Saba's interview with the HRBBCSM (high-ranking BBC staff member) is now up. For anyone who hasn't figured it out by now, that would be David Coombs.
Looks like Bellevue's College Ministry is falling a little behind on their community service commitment.
Here.
nbbcof,
I guess it's the thought that counts.
Why would God "speak or confirm" His Will to DC or anyone else in the leadership....and not to all of us????
Not that I personally believe there is any way God "speaks to us"
other than thru His Word. But how is one to think thru this....especially with Ray believeing DC is so sincere?????
just asking for some help in processing this.
Antinomianism
In case the link does not work
http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?747
"He talked about how his body is just his "earth suit." So, when the "temptations of the flesh" and the "accusations of the world" get heavy, he knows that this isn't really him because, thanks to grace, "Tommy's already in the heavens with God."
Beside the fact that is NOT Bibical and he is fooling himself, think of how many ignorant people will believe what he teaches. Just like "under the blood" used by Gaines which mocks Christ precious blood. That is why James says, Many of you should not be teachers.
Christa, I do not know what to say to you, dear sister. I am speechless at the depravity in our churches. I remain speechless over the fact that the 'messengers' or victims become the 'accused'. Unfortunaty, it works. Good is evil and evil is good.
I remain grieved that Pharisetical leaders like Stanley and Gaines (and many others) refuse to deal Biblically with such heinous sin. Stanley's congregation has every right to know about this 'minister'.
These Pharisees do not want this to 'reflect' on them. That is why they go overboard on protecting the perp. So, they enable sin, ignore scripture and in the process become responsible themselves.
Knowing that God is Perfect Justice, I tremble for these people who remain unrepentant in such heinous sin. This man should have been tried and sentenced to prison here on earth.
I tremble for these earthly priests who call themselves pastors. It has become about money, power, celebrity and numbers. Christ is just an assessory they market to obtain those things.
With this mindset in our churches, we are fools to think our children are safe there. We must pray for Christ to return soon.
Lin,
The children at BBC ARE NOT safe!
With so many coaches not willing to sign the pledge to SG and give up their privacy....
one of the evil "things" ( that's one of the names he called himself)
that used to threaten and accuse us on this blog ARE being allowed to coach the children.
Another allowed to coach, has a particular sin issue in his recent background that in the past staff members have been fired from working at BBC for....but
now BBC allows those with the same sin issues to volunteer to coach. All because they ARE willing to sign.
This has nothing to do with protecting the children.
I mentioned that my niece's husband had assisted his daughter's coach in prior years.....
no disrespect at all to this precious dad and husband but he is what most people would consider shy and a bit "country".
My point...he doesn't read the blog,I had said nothing to them and he doesn't have a theology degree.
But this man KNEW it was not Biblical nor did it make any common sense to sign these documents.
This man has NOTHING in his background to be concerned about.
The actual background of a person doesn't seem to be an issue for BBC.
The children are not safe.
gmommy, I thought both sides of the interview were bizarre.
Hey folks: Bogus preachers have been around as long as there have been groups to support them. The only difference now is the advent of mega churches and the advent of the world wide web. Back in the old days, the churches were small and local and bad news was kept quite. Now when something goes awry, the whole world knows about it within hours. The spotlight has gotten much larger and much brighter.
Perhaps MD was let go from Charles Stanley's church because of the controversy surrounding MD that was hitting the www just prior to his hiring.
I don't think those boys down in Atlanta want people snooping around too much. Not much was said about the man who held the position MD took over. He dissapeared without a sound. Huge money flows through FBCA and Intouch.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Looks like Bellevue's College Ministry is falling a little behind on their community service commitment.
Reply: A picture says a thousand words, don't they say? I think the photo is poignant, under the circumstances.
Good evening all,
A wonderful worship and bible study time tonight. I was so pleased to see my little ones worship Him. May you each know Him and be known by Him.
Leaders as Stumbling Blocks
Info about a local company that Bellevue Baptist Church may be placing your personal information with:
"Blue Line Investigations"
6025 Stage Road, Ste 42-146
Bartlett, Tennessee 38134
here
A local company owned by a Richard & Kris Clinton of the same locale.
Other addresses associated with this company....
Suite 109 PMB 602
6600 Stage Road
Bartlett, TN 38134
5705 Stage Rd
Bartlett, TN 38134
A team was setting up quite a bit of high dollar lighting in the foyer outside the bookstore Thursday afternoon. According to a prayer request from Carolyn Higginbotham, four new TV spots are being taped that will air in September. She describes them as "special spots to let our community know the heart of our pastor and church." Interesting. Is Steve going to start beating the community sheep now?
Hi bloggers,
Pondering the little prayer cards with their snappy NASCAR theme caused me to reflect on how I learned to pray. (“Oh, no” you say, “here we go again.”) I thought of Higgy’s remarks when she first became Prayer Director of BBC and on Steve Gaines’s remarks on the subject. Why are these remarks so troubling? Hang in there with me.
Like many of you, I learned to pray as soon as I could talk. I bowed my head as my grandfather prayed before we took our meals. My mother prayed with me as we kneeled beside our beds every night. Among other things, we asked God to protect my Daddy, who was fighting in Korea. My Daddy came home.
I had Christian teachers in my public school, who read us a Bible story every morning and prayed with us in the classroom. I memorized “The Lord’s Prayer” from watching the TV station sign off at night. (in the summertime) I’ll grant you, those days are gone.
When I was about 8 years old, my Grandmother talked to me about how God sometimes chooses not to answer our prayers. She told me He always knows best. She was right. I was praying for my mother to get well; God chose to take her home. I learned the meaning of “Thy will be done.” That was troubling.
Over the years, there have been times when I was afraid to really pray. I continued on, but with much trepidation. I was afraid because I was a Christian with vestiges of sin in my life. I was afraid because I thought totally surrendering to God might likely result in a calling to darkest Africa, or for grief and suffering beyond my endurance, or for the tragic death of a family member or myself. But, God is faithful. He calmed my fears and showed me His love. He taught me the meaning of trust and of grace by showing me His love. He gave me the freedom to really pray.
God led our family to Memphis and then to Bellevue Baptist. He drew my little family up under His wings, and taught my husband and children about His saving grace. He blessed us with 30 years of the Bible teaching under Adrian Rogers and the most beautiful sacred music this side of heaven, under Tommy Lane and Jim Whitmire. I am so grateful; truly grateful. I know it was an answer to prayer.
How did you learn to pray?
Duct Tape Alert!!!
There is a church in Coral Springs, Florida that is essentially bribing people to attend the services. For example, if they fill out the information card, they will get a $15 gift card to iTunes. Additionally, they are entered into a drawing for an iPhone.
The scary thing is what the spokesman from the SBC had to say reguarding it: ""The method is fair game as long as it's not illegal, immoral or against scripture," Oldham said. "The message must never be compromised.".
Funny, I would think bribing people to come to church would contaminate the message.
Here is the link:
Church Bribes people to visit
Well, so much for GooGoo bars...
Even scarier: ""I can't reach them if they don't come in the door," he said."
This church has no outreach other than bribing the world to attend?
"Even scarier: 'I can't reach them if they don't come in the door,' he said."
I noticed that and was wondering the same thing!
Make sure your sound is turned down before clicking on this link!
Church by the Glades
From the "first-time visitor" FAQs:
Q: What time should I be there?
A: You should give yourself plenty of time to get the kids to KidStuf, get some freshly brewed coffee and find a good seat. For this reason, we recommend that you arrive on campus no later than 15 minutes prior to the start of the service you wish to attend.
Q: What should I wear?
A: Well, what are you wearing? Jeans and a t-shirt are excellent options for our laid-back environment.
How did people ever make it before they started incorporating coffee shops into church? I don't go to church to eat doughnuts and drink coffee (or to watch other people do so). Hardly a week goes by that someone doesn't spill his coffee in SS class. There's a time and place for everything, and this isn't it IMO.
From today's Bellevue Today:
Singing Christmas Tree Cast Auditions
"Bellevue members may audition for the cast of the 2007 Singing Christmas Tree on Saturday, August 25, at 9:00 a.m. in the Choir Room or Monday, August 27, at 6:30 p.m. in the Choir Room. Men and women ages 18-55 are needed. Singing may be required. There are no children's parts."
So... you have to be between 18 and 55 now? I guess SCT cast members from recent years, like Bette Stalnecker Gibson, and all the children, are no longer welcome. Scenes like this are a thing of the past at Bellevue. Now that's pathetic.
NASS,
Just a note. These auditions for the SCT are usually for the speaking and singing roles, not for the crowd or little children as part of the crowd participation. This cast call will give the cast members plenty of time to familiarize themselves with their roles, lines and songs before actual rehearsals start.
And, there just may happen to be a child's singing role which may happen to be incorporated at a later date which would result in another "call". I have no idea that this would be so, but I have observed that the SCT staff has shown themselves to be quite resourceful in the past to incorporate the unique talents of BBC church members whether adult or child so as to enrich the presentation.
Good afternoon all. Please remember Christians, you have the incredible opportunity to love others, as you have been loved by God, in thought, word, and deed.
And pray for one another as the day of the Lord draws nearer.
From the article Lynn mentioned, Church Bribes people to visit:
"I can't reach them if they don't come in the door," he said.
This is indicative of the mindset of many, if not most, "seeker sensitive" churches. It is assumed that the primary means of evangelism of a church is via the services conducted by professional ministers within the church walls, rather than by the personal witnessing of the members of the church as they go about their daily lives.
But this backwards view of evangelism isn't really a product of the seeker sensitive movement; seeker senstive practices are actually a product of a long-standing misconception of the role of worship services in evangelism. In the biblical model, believers go about proclaiming the gospel, and people respond by trusting in Christ for salvation. Those people are then incorporated into a local church body, which meets together so that each member can use their gifts to encourage and edify one another -- one part of which is the preaching / teaching of the Word (the pastor's sermon).
Naturally, a common thing for the sermon to include is the message of salvation in Christ, since it encourages us in our faith (we never grow tired of hearing what God has done for us though Jesus) and equips us to share our faith with others (the more familiar we become with the message the more naturally and easily we can share it with others). So if unbelievers happen to be present when the message of salvation is preached within the church, some of them are going to respond to the gospel in faith and be saved. That's very good, but it wasn't the reason the believers came together for the worship service; it was a blessed by-product.
But for many, many years before the advent of the seeker sensitive and related movements, evangelical churches have mistakenly focused on using regular church worship services as a (or the) primary means of evangelism. Together with a decisional orientation towards salvation (walk the aisle, pray a prayer) rather than a focus on salvation as the work of God (His Spirit by grace convicting the lost of their sin and granting them repentance and faith), this misplaced emphasis on evangelism through church services set the stage for a "by any means necessary" approach to adapting church services for evangelistic outreach.
Simply put, when the primary focus of church worship services is the lost rather than the saved, it is no surprise that the church would start to look more and more like the world.
Q: What should I do with the kids?
We love your kids and, like you, we want them to have the best worship experience possible. We believe this experience is with our KidStuf Ministry. There they will have the opportunity to worship and learn God's Word in a way they can relate to and understand. This also frees you up to worship without any distractions. If you decide to bring the kids to worship, we respectfully ask that you use one of our Family Friendly Worship rooms located in the back of the Worship Center, or sit in the designated rows.
Call me nuts here...but am I the only one who has a problem with keeping kids out of the main sanctuary? To me its saying, you can worship, but if you have kids, you have to go elsewhere.
Churchmouse,
I loved the goo goo bar....thank you!
From my SS class today.....
something was said about doing this and that to "attract" people to church (probably coffee bars ...don't remember)
Here is what the pastor said that I loved...
To the degree that the church does NOT reflect the culture,
church will attract the culture.
that's as close to the quote as I could write...it's a few words off but you get the point.
He also asked the question...
what is the authority for this church???
Is it the pastor???
Is it la la la...(named different things)..
The pastor said,
it is not me ...
I am a servant...I am not the authority over this church.
The authority is the Word of God,
the Bible is the Word of God,
it is our authority because He is the author.
Churchmouse,
that's my goo goo bar!!!!!
gmommy wrote:
"The pastor said,
it is not me ...
I am a servant...I am not the authority over this church."
Steve Gaines would choke if he tried to utter those words.
Nass: Bless his heart.
junkster - Wow! Excellent. You hit the spot on the purpose of the church meeting and the error of using it as a primary means of evangelism to the lost world. I just don't think I've ever heard anyone put it as perfectly as you just did. =)
Junk said: "Simply put, when the primary focus of church worship services is the lost rather than the saved, it is no surprise that the church would start to look more and more like the world."
Junk's 2:18 post is DEAD ON. We've discussed this some on this blog but this point can not be stressed too much.
Matt. 28:19.....GO...........
concernedsbcer,
you sure did a good job AFTER you had those triplets in 3 minutes :)
Your child is such a blessing.
(Just a little affirmation for all your prayers, sweat, and tears)
Lynn wrote:
"Call me nuts here...but am I the only one who has a problem with keeping kids out of the main sanctuary? To me its saying, you can worship, but if you have kids, you have to go elsewhere."
No, you're not the only one. How are kids ever going to learn how to behave in church if their parents don't take them to church? As long as they're well-behaved and the parents escort them out if they act up, I think it's wonderful to see children in church worshiping alongside people of all ages.
It's interesting to watch the LWF broadcasts, then BBC's current services, and see how much younger the adults are getting. Used to be you'd see plenty of people over 70. Now there aren't nearly as many.
padroc wrote:
"These auditions for the SCT are usually for the speaking and singing roles, not for the crowd or little children as part of the crowd participation."
If that's the case then am I to assume there are no current plans for speaking or singing parts for anyone under 18 or over 55?
"I have observed that the SCT staff has shown themselves to be quite resourceful in the past to incorporate the unique talents of BBC church members whether adult or child so as to enrich the presentation."
As have I. But I don't recall them ever limiting participation to a specific age group. Seems anyone over 50 is getting squeezed out (as per the PDC), and children are to be segregated from the "in crowd" adult population. Seems like the "seeker sensitive" mentality is "sensitive" to only one age group. If you're over 50 you can just keep "seeking." In fact, I'm not sure that age isn't closer to 40.
Just a note about all the SCT stuff - there has always been certain ages that were favored for certain shows. The SCT has traditionally been the youngest group - the Passion Play mainly adults - Celebrate America mainly college and singles. Careful not to read in too much.
"Men and women ages 18-55 are needed."
Not reading anything into it that it doesn't say. It follows logically from this statement that those over 55 or under 18 need not apply. Wonder if they're going to check your I.D. if you "look" too old or too young.
nbbcof - Its not just by chance that the current day membership looks younger on tv. SG set out early to get rid of the over 70 crowd. These folks have been around long enough to know an imposter when they see one. In fact, I fit into that age group.
Hey gmommysgirls...
(that's hard to write)
Don't forget that things have changed drastically since you were in the performances.
...thought you just checked on me every once in a while :)
Christa's most recent post is heart breaking. She articulates so well what many of us feel.
The betrayals continue.
The denial and minimizing continue.
The SBC as a whole choose to be blind to the many victims and to those who will be victimized.
The sacrifice of their thrones and crowns is too great to protect the vulnerable.
This reinjures those who have already suffered and keeps the door wide open for more to suffer.
Thanks, GMommy....but God has blessed me......
He is SO faithful (even when it doesn't always make sense)
:)
Daily Devotional from Love Worth Finding Ministries
AUGUST 18
BIBLE MEDITATION:
"Mine eyes are ever toward the Lord..." Psalm 25:15
DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT:
There's a story about the devil auctioning off his tools. He had a high price on pride, laziness, arrogance, hate, envy, and jealousy. But there was one tool that had a sign under it, "Not For Sale." Someone said, "What is that tool and why isn't it for sale?" "Well," he said, "I can't afford to get rid of that one. It's my chief tool, discouragement. With this tool, I can pry open a heart and once I get in I can do most anything I want." Do you want me to tell you why you get discouraged? I'll give it to you in a nutshell you've taken your eyes off God!
ACTION POINT:
Are you discouraged? If not, praise God! And find someone who is so that you can give them the encouragement they need in Jesus Christ. Maybe it's your next-door neighbor. Maybe it's a co-worker. Maybe it's your spouse.
When the Adopt-A-Road program was started the Bellevue College Ministry adopted those two miles but shortly after the program started they quit being involved with the project and handed it down to the Youth Ministry. So every once in a while the Youth Ministry would ask any interested home schooled students to meet at the church to clean the highway and those involved would be treated to a free lunch.
Lynn said...
Duct Tape Alert!!!
There is a church in Coral Springs, Florida that is essentially bribing people to attend the services. For example, if they fill out the information card, they will get a $15 gift card to iTunes. Additionally, they are entered into a drawing for an iPhone.
Reply:
Duct tape allert #2
A child in my family tells informed us today that a friend at BBC is receiving Bible Study "BUCKS" for reading the Bible, prayer requests, and other worthy activities in her 6th grade class. Get enough "bucks" and you can get yourself a Webkins.
inmemphis wrote:
"When the Adopt-A-Road program was started the Bellevue College Ministry adopted those two miles but shortly after the program started they quit being involved with the project and handed it down to the Youth Ministry."
Okay. Then the Youth Ministry is falling down on the job.
churchmouse wrote:
"Get enough "bucks" and you can get yourself a Webkins."
What's a "Webkins"?
If it's homeschoolers in the youth ministry, one reason the project has fallen into disarray may be that many homeschoolers have left BBC.
And why was it just the homeschoolers in the first place? If it's a project for the youth ministry, why isn't it the whole youth ministry?
Just askin' :/
This toy is a furry pet. Somehow it gets on the internet and talks to other webkins. I think. They have to be "fed" and cared for on line, somehow. There are lots of different animals. Some "people" I know have several. In fact, there is a fish in our family, which isn't furry, but has blinky lights.
churchmouse wrote:
"The comment about home schoolers strikes a chord with me. One staff member at BBC has called home school parents cheap because they don't pay for private school. This happened when home school parents objected to giving up the use of the basketball courts at the Grace Building to free them up for ECS."
I suspect a lot of those homeschooled kids are getting a better education than many of those whose parents aren't "too cheap" to pay the $$$$ it takes to send a kid to ECS. And a lot of people have more than one child. I hate to think what it would cost to put even one kid through ECS now, much less two or three.
Doesn't ECS have their own gym(s)? Or were they too cheap to build one?
Yes, apparently 6th grade girls in one class will get points for mentioning prayer requests, keeping up with daily Bible reading and journaling, and attending Bible Fellowship. I wonder if the more prayer requests you mention, the more points you get. Boy, my child will tell all (as prayer requests, of course) and get that Webkin before someone else does!
Hmmmmm, points for prayer. Sounds like the Children's Summer Prayer Program for SG. Since when did everything have to turn into a contest????
New BBC Open Forum said...
churchmouse wrote:
"The comment about home schoolers strikes a chord with me. One staff member at BBC has called home school parents cheap because they don't pay for private school. This happened when home school parents objected to giving up the use of the basketball courts at the Grace Building to free them up for ECS."
I suspect a lot of those homeschooled kids are getting a better education than many of those whose parents aren't "too cheap" to pay the $$$$ it takes to send a kid to ECS. And a lot of people have more than one child. I hate to think what it would cost to put even one kid through ECS now, much less two or three.
Doesn't ECS have their own gym(s)? Or were they too cheap to build one?
11:14 PM, August 19, 2007
When the president of ECS is Chairman of the Deacons....who needs their own equipment.
As bad as it sounds...I would rather put my kids in public school than ECS. (I don't have kids, just speaking hypothetically).
Memphismom02 said...
Yes, apparently 6th grade girls in one class will get points for mentioning prayer requests, keeping up with daily Bible reading and journaling, and attending Bible Fellowship. I wonder if the more prayer requests you mention, the more points you get. Boy, my child will tell all (as prayer requests, of course) and get that Webkin before someone else does!
Hmmmmm, points for prayer. Sounds like the Children's Summer Prayer Program for SG. Since when did everything have to turn into a contest????
11:34 PM, August 19, 2007
Whats next...detention for those who don't keep up?
HERE's A FACT:
A friend of mine that had homeschooled her child since kindergarten, decided in the 8th grade to let him try ECS.
At that one semester at ECS, they were so far behind what he was doing in homeschool, that they took him out and will homeschool him through high school now.
Not saying ECS is a bad school, just saying that homeschooling can give these private schools a run for their money $$$ .
I wanted to tell you - I went to Ellendale Baptist yesterday (saw someone from this blog!). Jerry Harmon is their new pastor (new as in yesterday was his 1st Sunday!) He was really a blessing. He preached on Psalm 23 and titled his message "Follow the Leader". I thought at first, "UH OH!", but he went on to show 7 blessings you can receive from following the leader - God! Now that was a great sermon. Made it even better that he quoted Dr. Rogers and said he went to Mid-America! :)
karen
This morning the news is all about Hurricane Dean and the preparations for this monster storm. Texas residents, who opened their arms to New Orleans refugees after Katrina, are now making preparations to evacuate their homes in the event that the storm takes a more northerly trek.
Faith Baptist Church has opened her doors to refugees from another monster storm. They have provided warmth, encouragement, and a new home to many; even going so far as to offer a banquet for visitors wishing to ask questions. They have shown the love of Christ to a wounded and bewildered crowd of brothers and sisters.
Yesterday, the pastor repeated this welcome from the pulpit, but warned, "Don't get too comfortable here." He warned newcomers that there may come a time when they are asked to leave to help others.
A friend told my daughter of a time when a sister church was in trouble. The pastor of Faith Baptist asked for volunteers to go out -- to move their membership -- and help the struggling church. He got volunteers, and they helped, and the little church is now thriving.
Thank you Faith Baptist, for showing the love of Christ.
NASS said...
So... you have to be between 18 and 55 now? I guess SCT cast members from recent years, like Bette Stalnecker Gibson, and all the children, are no longer welcome. Scenes like this are a thing of the past at Bellevue. Now that's pathetic.
Hey, Nass - let's go back a little further. Remember Virgina Bailey in the SCT? Hey, I remember Virginia Bailey playing a cow in a Children's Musical! Now, THAT'S old Bellevue! :) I think I played a zebra in that one - keep your comments to yourselves! :)
Thread Title:
""I'm going to teach Bellevue to be a praying church!""
Maybe someone should teach us to pray, look at what our prayers got us!
new Bellevue versus old.....
What a sad commentary that there was such a legacy to be built on, such a great Biblical foundation. However power and greed appears to have overwhelmed the pulpit committee (or maybe it was ignorance) and they bought the SG line that a 'tearing down' was necessary, rebuild the foundation, before the future of the church could be realized. That leap will be one for the history books; already is.
When Steve first came to BBC, a story got around that he didn't want children singing in the big church. LP came from a staff meetings in tears and was overheard pleading,"Please reconsider this!"
PS Hi to Karen.
churchmouse wrote:
"When Steve first came to BBC, a story got around that he didn't want children singing in the big church. LP came from a staff meetings in tears and was overheard pleading,'Please reconsider this!'"
LP = Lisa Parker (no relation to Jamie)
eprov wrote:
However power and greed appears to have overwhelmed the pulpit committee (or maybe it was ignorance)
Reply: Or both?
bbc 11yrs wrote:
"Maybe someone should teach us to pray, look at what our prayers got us!"
Touché!
bbc 11yrs wrote:
"Maybe someone should teach us to pray, look at what our prayers got us!"
Reply: We don't see the picture, yet. Many believe our problems are the result of a lack of prayer. Maybe, that was part of it. Don't forget there was the fungus of sin growing at BBC. It is still there. I think God may have answered our prayer, just not in the way we would have wanted. We have to keep in mind that "the church" is not synonymous with Bellevue Baptist. Maybe that campus is not where God will give us a godly pastor.
Hi Churchmouse!
In response to how we were taught to pray:
The only time I can remember a contest among the kids at Bellevue, I think I was in 5th grade. We were given pages to take sermon notes on. If I remember right they looked kind of like this:
Date:_____________
Pastor:_______________
Title of Message:_______________
Notes:
And that was it! The notes I took in 5th grade were WAY more detailed than the fill in the blank the BBC congregation is getting. I worked hard on those notes and still use that format to this day.
I won a prize, but it wasn't huge, just a cute thank you for doing well. It had to do with a bee, but for the life of me, I don't remember what it was.
karen
2007-2008 Tuition Schedule
Grade
Tuition
1/2 Day Junior Kindergarten
$5,300
Junior Kindergarten Extended Day M,W,F
$6,820
Junior Kindergarten Extended Day M-F
$7,260
1/2 Day Senior Kindergarten
$5,635
Full Day Senior Kindergarten
$7,450
Lower School (Grades 1-5)
$8,120
Middle School (Grades 6-8)
$9,210
Upper School (Grades 9-12)
$10,265
Lower School STAR Program
$12,365
Middle School STAR Math Program
$2,365
Middle School STAR Language Arts Program
$2,907
ECS is committed to making Christian education affordable. To apply for tuition assistance please apply on-line at xxxxxxxx
Affordable is such a relative term......
My kids were in private school and it reached a point that it just wasn't an option; we could have a home, or send them to private school. That's when we began homeschooling. What a tremendous blessing! Best thing God ever told me to do!
:)
Karen, I liked the structure of taking sermon notes. What a great habit to get in to, and very educational. I think that's great. Plus you have a defined goal.
How long you pray, well, that's another issue, it seems to me. Prayer is supposed to be private to some degree, too.
Hummmm....just kinda gives me a BIG check in my spirit.
Churchmouse said:
"1 - We don't see the picture, yet. Many believe our problems are the result of a lack of prayer. Maybe, that was part of it. 2 - Don't forget there was the fungus of sin growing at BBC. It is still there. 3 - I think God may have answered our prayer, just not in the way we would have wanted. 4 - We have to keep in mind that "the church" is not synonymous with Bellevue Baptist. 5 - Maybe that campus is not where God will give us a godly pastor."
Reply: 1 - If it was the result in a lack of prayer, then maybe God gave us what we did not ask for.
2 - There is, was and will be sin in BBC as there will be sin in the lives of we who post on this forum.
3 - He often answers our prayers in ways we do not want. I am glad He knows best.
4 - I never thought or implied such.
5 - Not maybe but probably.
I remember from years ago hearing an evangelist say, God gives churches the preachers they deserve. I don't know if I whole heartedly agree but it did cause me to think. I believe the preacher was either Sam Cathy or Vance Havner. I could be wrong on it being either of these fine men, it was some time ago.
I guess there goes the thinking that I must be young - as stated in an earlier thread.
Homeschool/ECS/Briarcrest/County
My family spent the first 4 years at private schools.
When we moved to Shelby County, we were behind in several things. One of them math. Suffered through a year at county before sending them to Sylvan to get what they had missed in private school. Now we are 97% from last years tcap.
By the way, one of the reasons we left was immorality in the teaching staff and refusal to administer discipline.
You are better off with County schools. Have you checked their ratings lately? If you don't want county, homeschool. There is just as much immoral junk going on at the privates as there is the county system. After all, we have invited the world to worship with us. What makes one think that our christian schools would look any different? If you want to buy grades and be part of the club, private is the way to go. Your kid can't fail. If you want them to get an education, send them to county.
For the kind of money the privates are getting, it would be better to hire a tutor and split them among a few families if needed.
bbc 11 yrs said...
If it was the result in a lack of prayer, then maybe God gave us what we did not ask for.
I think I've stated this a jillion times in the last 2 years. With Paul Williams being in charge of praying for the search committee, can you see how Paul's own sin could have permeated throughout this whole process? I can - not saying that his sin was SOLELY responsible, but when a minister has sin in his life, how can he be an effective leader of others?
I know we all have sin in our lives, but this minister butalized his child so I'm not sure the prayers offered were heeded by God. So by PW being in charge of praying for the search committe, the whole process was thereby tainted by the unrepented of sin in PW's life.
Thereby we got exactly what we didn't ask for - a minister with integrity who would have kicked PW out on his keister upon hearing of his heinous act. Look at it from PW's perspective, maybe he prayed that we'd get a pastor that would believe the lies PW told him and be able to stay on BBC staff as long as the sin wasn't revealed.
karen
Word Verification: pwckkpw
FREAKY!
Karen,
The hiring of SG had more to do with the body as a whole and our prayer life than did the prayer life of PW.
God was not listening to PW's prayers as long as he spoke to God without repentance.
I refuse to blame PW for SG being BBC's pastor. This is a cop out on our responsibility to God. PW's prayers were not heard. I now ask myself, were mine. If not, why not?
James 5:16 still teaches ...The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
The question about the prayers for BBC's new pastor remains: Did God hear our prayers? Were our prayers and lives in line with James 5:16?
What a day! I just learned that Riad Saba told his Bible Study class that last Sunday was his last day.
God bless you, Mr. Saba
bbc 11,
Please don't think I believe that either. It's just interesting to me to trace things back. I could be reaching, but it makes sense to me. By no means am I making a cop out. That's the last thing I want to do. I hope that's not what you think I said.
Karen
Not to be ugly, but have you noticed how small the choir is these days? I had BBC on the TV while I was getting ready for church yesterday and I counted rows of people. There were 3 rows! I was actually shocked at this. I also didn't recognize most of the folks on the Praise Team or in the choir. Not exactly the "400 member choir" mentioned in the "Most" pullout of the Commerical Appeal 2 weeks ago.
Then later I watched a little of LWF - the choir behind Dr. Rogers was 6-8 rows big. Quite a contrast!
Karen wrote:
"Then later I watched a little of LWF - the choir behind Dr. Rogers was 6-8 rows big."
I don't think there could ever have been more than 5 rows (plus the "wings"), but you're right that the choir has shrunk considerably.
Churchmouse said...
What a day! I just learned that Riad Saba told his Bible Study class that last Sunday was his last day.
Was that because he refused to sign the pledge to the pastor????What a loss for BBC!!!!!
New BBC Open Forum said...
Karen wrote:
"Then later I watched a little of LWF - the choir behind Dr. Rogers was 6-8 rows big."
I don't think there could ever have been more than 5 rows (plus the "wings"), but you're right that the choir has shrunk considerably.
You're right - the row capcity can hold up to 6 - I apologize for my unintentional exageration. What's funny is when I watched BBC, the choir was every other row - trying to make the loft look fuller. Well, it ain't working! Still looks empty.
Hey Folks: Go to USAToday.com and click on "On Deadline:Church puts sex offender in pulpit." Interesting!
Ray Saba fought the good fight.
He COURAGEOUSLY did all he could.
Ez,
I didn't experience Shelby schools personally but if I could go back...I would have home schooled my son more than the last year.
ECS was not a good environment for him and I knew I couldn't send him to the public school I would have had to.
I am so grateful my daughter is committed to homeschooling.
The kids I know that have been homeschooled are well educated AND not beaten down by peer pressure.
I am shocked by how much ECS has increased just since I left.
I have been told Briarcrest is even higher.
Hey Folks: Go to USAToday.com and click on "On Deadline:Church puts sex offender in pulpit." Interesting!
This is pretty horrifying. But I'm not surprised anymore. Too much nonsense has happened in too many of our churches. Is there any question as to where we are heading? I can be pessimistic or I can remember that Soon and very soon, we are going to see the King.
"How are kids ever going to learn how to behave in church if their parents don't take them to church? "
I agree. Now we have 'kids church' where they sing silly songs and jump up and down. They are going to think going to church means entertainment for them.
When I was about 4 1/2, I had to sit on the front row by myself. My mom was either playing the organ or piano on stage. All she had to do was look at me with one arched eyebrow and I knew I was dead meat when we got home. If we had company for lunch, which was often, I had to wait until all of that was over to be dead meat. It was excrutiating. But, lesson learned early.
Lin wrote:
"All she had to do was look at me with one arched eyebrow and I knew I was dead meat when we got home."
Oh, my! The dreaded LOOK! ;-\
NASS shudders just thinking about it....
A visitor's view of Bellevue...
Getting God in Tennessee
New BBC Open Forum said...
A visitor's view of Bellevue...
Getting God in Tennessee
5:58 PM, August 20, 2007
It's a shame they couldn't have visited during Pastor Roger's time. Perhaps they could have been blessed and convicted to come to the Lord in repentance for salvation. I'm just speculating. But I can't help to wonder.
David Brown is supposed to be interviewed on the 9 o'clock news on FOX13 tonight.
I just read that link "Getting God in Tennessee." It made me sad. Not necessarily because of BBC, but because those people came, made a serious study of the bulletin, facilities and people, and left unchanged and non the wiser of what makes Christians different and why we need Jesus. Oh, I know Junk, churches are for the saved (and I agree) but still......surely they should have seen SOMETHING different, something unique, something to draw them?
:(
Karen,
Good to see you yesterday. I too,thought "Oh No" not another one. The sermon was indeed refreshing learned a few things from Ps:23 that I did not know. I had heard the story about the shadow, from Dr. Rogers, I think.
What struck me more than anything about the sermon was the personal experiences of prayers being answered. I only remember one time that SG said anything about his personal prayers being answered, and that was when he brought his "kneeling bench" to church one morning. Not saying he was insincere.
Nass,
You asked how we felt when SG said he was going to teach us how to pray.
I was stunned to think that someone could come in and say something like that to a congregation like BBC. All you had to do was look around and see what prayer had done under the leadership of Dr. Rogers.
Mr. Ray Saba,
BBC's loss is someone else's "GAIN."
May God continue to bless you.
I do not post often, but I try to keep up with what is happening. You all do a good job of that. So, thank you.
These past two years have been a true testing of my faith - and a time to again examine my thoughts and motives and walk with the Lord. It has been a time of testing of long-time friendships as some whom I love in the Lord have chosen a different path than the one the Lord has directed me on regarding our much beloved Bellevue. In the process, I have stumbled many times in my thoughts and with my tongue and have had to get on my knees and ask my Father for His forgiveness and cleansing and renewal. I've also had to go to those whom I have inadvertently hurt with my words and ask for forgiveness. It has truly been a sifting time for not only me but so many of us caught up in the turmoil. As Jude tells us - we ARE to earnestly contend for the faith. However, in the process of contending for the faith (denouncing error/courageously taking a stand for righteousness), the body of Christ is not to war against itself. Jesus tells us that they (those outside the faith) will know that we are His disciples by the love we have for one another.
As Dr. R used to say: "We give our enemies the ammunition to shoot us with." Those outside the faith rejoice and mock the church when they hear of Christians warring against one another. (There IS honest debate - Truth spoken in love but too many times there is contention, backbiting and lack of love.) In the O.T. there were times when God would send confusion among those warring against Israel so that they would turn on themselves, and thus Israel would win the battle. Satan uses the same tactics with God's people - he tempts us to turn on each other so that he can win yet another battle. Bellevue is ultimately in the hands of our sovereign God. God rules and He overrules to accomplish His purposes. Those who have chosen to stay and be supportive of the
"new" Bellevue need to be left in peace and covered with prayer by their brothers and sisters in Christ. Those of us who have chosen to leave and become members of other churches need to be left in peace and covered with prayer by their brothers and sisters in Christ.
And we ALL need to obey this exhortation from the Lord to His children even in the midst of our disagreement: "Be kind to one another, tender hearted, forgiving one another even as God, for Christ's sake, has forgiven you." (Ephes. 4:32). Jesus is coming soon...the signs of the times are all around us. Let's get our eyes back on the Author and Finisher of our faith so that we are ready for His appearing. JMO
The beginning of Founders' Days at MABTS was great last night. THe music was the best EVER (personal opinion) under the direction of Dr. Jim Whitmire and the Germantown orchestra and choir (I saw some Bellevue and Kirby choir members too), and Dr. Spradlin preached a powerful message.
concernedSBCer said...
I just read that link "Getting God in Tennessee." It made me sad. Not necessarily because of BBC, but because those people came, made a serious study of the bulletin, facilities and people, and left unchanged and non the wiser of what makes Christians different and why we need Jesus. Oh, I know Junk, churches are for the saved (and I agree) but still......surely they should have seen SOMETHING different, something unique, something to draw them?
Yes, one would hope that when unbelievers came into a gathering of believers they would at least see the difference Christ makes in their lives--one would hope they would hear the reason for the difference as well. Perhaps it is difficult to really see Jesus when distracted by t-shirts, bumper stickers, and social programs. But then, who knows ... seeds may have been planted that someone else will water, and one day God may bring the increase. Even when a church uses only the most biblical of methods, they are always implemented by humans, and thus there is always some taint of sin there -- yet God uses us to spread His Word anyway.
Junk said: "Perhaps it is difficult to really see Jesus when distracted by t-shirts, bumper stickers, and social programs."
You know, in trying to announce and promote our faith, I wonder.....
Are we (again) taking the easy way out by thinking that our t-shirts can speak better for us than our actions?
Hey, I don't wanna beat myself, or anyone else up, but it seems something is missing in the corporate identity of the church....
Of course, I always try to remind myself.....the gate is narrow and few will go through it.....
Forgive my ramblings; maybe I ponder too much and instead need to live as Jesus and let God take care of the announcing....
Junkster said...
But then, who knows ... seeds may have been planted that someone else will water,...
9:22 AM, August 21, 2007
That was/is my hope as well (at the very least).
If you remember the book "Transitions" ...by Dan Southerland..who incredibly tells Purpose Driven Pastors how to "transition" churches and how and why to kick long time faithful beleivers out of churches when they disagree with the radical and unbiblical transitions and/or changes that Purpose Driven change agents make in established churches, you wont want to miss reading this report of a prominent pastor who worked closely with "Church Transitions" being newly arrested for felony theft .....Chickens are coming home to roost methinks.....
Pastor of church who is part of "Church Transitions" and closely affiliated with The Purpose Driven movement arrested for felony theft.
PASTOR OF CHURCH AND MAN AFFILIATED WITH "CHURCH TRANSITIONS" ORGANIZATION WHICH HAS WORKED CLOSELY WITH PURPOSE DRIVEN POLLUTION ARRESTED FOR FELONY THEFT
Someone said that in contemporary Christianity, we have reduced Jesus to a marketing commodity. I remember in the 'old' church, the physical building was used only for worship. There was no 'selling' of anything allowed. Singers could not sell their wares. Not even potluck suppers.
Hey, before you get worried about my age, it hasn't been that long ago. Well, maybe it has! Regardless, making merchandise of Jesus has become the norm. And lest we try to defend it, maybe it really is as simple as a black and white issue, a definitive yes or no. After reading the referenced article, it's obvious that the world sees thru it. Oh for a real revival! I think we would see a lot of changes and I would probably have to go to the altar first!
32yrsatBBC: A very good post and I agree with most of your thoughts. However, the leadership in troubled churches are the ones that cause the world to see the dark side of organized religion. The concept of "my way or the highway" is the most unchristian thing that could be said to a believer. It shows a total lack of concern for those that don't always agree with the higher powers.
32yrs,
Thanks for your post. I really want to leave most people who don't agree with me in peace - I hope those reading will believe that. Hey, Mike Bratton and I get along just fine - he and I a MILES apart on some issues, but we're still able to be civil and kind to one another.
I really need to get this off my chest though - I have been hurt really deeply by some old friends of mine. I saw them in a restaurant over the weekend and didn't think twice about going up and giving them hugs. I may as well been hugging strangers for the welcome I received from them. I've known from the beginning of the BBC ordeal that this family was on the opposite side from me, but I didn't think it would ever affect my friendship with them. Wow - I guess I'm naive because I think I'd rather have been slapped in the face by them, instead of the icy reception I received. I have to assume they read this blog due to the fact I've only asked one or two questions regarding BBC and that was MONTHS ago.
I relayed my story to my mom and she was totally shocked. That's what's so heartbreaking - these people have been like my parent's own children over the years and have been part of our family. Now because we don't happen to agree with the issues going on within our church, we can no longer be friends? If I left Bellevue for another reason, would they still feel the same way about me?
karen (having a sad day!) :(
Karen,
Cheer up "This is the day the Lord hath made, we shall rejoice and be glad in it."
Watchman!!!
It's about time you show back up! I am just about to read this.
Funny! Do I remember this book? I own it! I all but memorized it and was a victim of the methods described in it!
Watchman, a lot of folks think all this hullabaloo is over the BOOK, PDL! Little do they realize it certainly has it's place, but it is over what the book advocates!!! It is all the things that go along with it. All the heresy!
I think I know who you are.
Ima
Glenn Hamilton, a church member, said the congregation's feelings about Clyde, who had been at the church since 1992, are divided.
"There are people that, despite what he's admitted to, don't want to go on without him, and then there are those that feel betrayed," Hamilton said.
The above comment is what is most insideous about the story of the imbezzleing pastor and most frightening in regard to our own experience at Bellevue.
There have been far too many people that, having seen and understood what has gone on, have chosen to just ignore the obvious and hold the messengers responsible for running the sheep out the door. As long as they can feel good during the services and fill in the last blank of the outline all is right with the world.
Heaven forbid that they should be called upon to think about what is being said and done in the name of Christ and like the Bereans test these things against the scripture.
WATCHMAN…YES! METHINKS CHICKENS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST TOO!!! ROFL! I had not seen this…thanks so much for posting it.
Roddy Clyde is the guy interviewed by Suzanne Sataline for the Wall Street Journal article last September, in defense of Rick Warren along with Glen Sartain and Dan Southerland…the same article we were in. He commented about us thus and like so, “During a session titled "Dealing with Opposition," Mr. Clyde recommended that the pastor speak to critical members, then help them leave if they don’t stop objecting. Then when those congregants join a new church, Mr. Clyde instructed, pastors should call their new minister and suggest that the congregants be barred from any leadership role.” Mr. Southerland added, “"There are moments when you’ve got to play hardball," said the Rev. Dan Southerland, Church Transitions’ president, in an interview. "You cannot transition a church…and placate every whiny Christian along the way."”
And now the headlines about Mr. Clyde say about him, “Round Rock pastor stole at least $500,000, according to arrest report. Donald 'Roddy' Clyde turned himself in Wednesday; he's charged with felony theft. “……A longtime Round Rock pastor was arrested after telling authorities he embezzled at least $500,000 from his church, according to court records.
“Donald "Roddy" Clyde, 48, turned himself in to authorities Wednesday and was charged with felony theft of more than $200,000 from the Fellowship at Forest Creek Church. Clyde's bail was set at $400,000, and he could face 99 years in prison if convicted. “
“Clyde told police that he used the church's bank account and credit card to buy land, horses, vacations and other property, according to his arrest affidavit.”
Go back up to Watchman’s post and click on his website link to read about this. Nobody will appreciate this as much as I do. However…does anything sound familiar?
Ima
Did anyone see or hear the latest last Sunday during the A.M. service at Bellevue? The Steve Gaines 10 minute commercial concerning his next holy land trip.
Ok, someone get the details and get a comp from another travel agencey!
Let's see how much he's making this time around.
Why doesn't his time on this trip out of the country count towards his vacations days? Where is this policy written?
Thanks for the kind words and emails - I was really down earlier, but I've come to realize the only person I can control is me and if I let someone bring me down, then shame on me! :)
Regarding the comment about the "chickens coming home to roost"...does "birds of a feather, etc" fit in this sitation as well?
karen
For those who didn't follow Watchman's link, or if it didn't work for you, here is the article (since it is short):
Round Rock pastor stole at least $500,000, according to arrest report.
Donald 'Roddy' Clyde turned himself in Wednesday; he's charged with felony theft.
By Isadora Vail
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Friday, August 17, 2007
A longtime Round Rock pastor was arrested after telling authorities he embezzled at least $500,000 from his church, according to court records.
Donald "Roddy" Clyde, 48, turned himself in to authorities Wednesday and was charged with felony theft of more than $200,000 from the Fellowship at Forest Creek Church. Clyde's bail was set at $400,000, and he could face 99 years in prison if convicted.
Clyde told police that he used the church's bank account and credit card to buy land, horses, vacations and other property, according to his arrest affidavit.
Lawrence Swicegood, a church spokesman, said a private investigation is under way to determine how long the church has been missing money and how much might have been taken.
Swicegood said a church accountant noticed some strange charges on the church credit card and bank account about three weeks ago. The church's leadership team then began to look at the receipts and charges, he said. Police interviewed Clyde about the charges Monday, and he stepped down that day.
"The church has always been about the people and not about one individual," Swicegood said of the 1,500-member congregation. "We are greatly saddened that our pastor had to resign, but we are pulling together to meet the needs of the community and the church."
Clyde's home in Round Rock's Forest Ridge subdivision is valued at about $350,000, according to the Williamson County appraisal district, and he also owns land in Taylor.
Glenn Hamilton, a church member, said the congregation's feelings about Clyde, who had been at the church since 1992, are divided.
"There are people that, despite what he's admitted to, don't want to go on without him, and then there are those that feel betrayed," Hamilton said.
An Austin fraud specialist said that Clyde could have stolen more than the $500,000 he reportedly admitted to taking.
"If he's saying $500,000, in my experience, I would look for a lot more because when perpetrators do estimate, it's always grossly underestimated," said Jim Ratley, president of Association of Certified Fraud Examiners.
-----
Comment by Junkster: This should put to rest any question of why financial transparency is critical. Why wouldn't church members expect to be able to review how the money is being spent?
Holylandtrip said...
Why doesn't his time on this trip out of the country count towards his vacations days? Where is this policy written?
Last time this topic came up, seems that I remember that someone reported that there is no set number of vacation days that SG is limited to out of the office or pulpit. I don't know if that was verified, but if it's true, that's a sweet gig!
junkster said:
Last time this topic came up, seems that I remember that someone reported that there is no set number of vacation days that SG is limited to out of the office or pulpit. I don't know if that was verified, but if it's true, that's a sweet gig!
4:24 PM, August 21, 2007
SOTL says:
Does anyone know where a fun loving, creative middle aged woman can get a job making a half million a year, with unlimited vacation time?
If so, call me at
1-800-GET-REAL
:)
and don't you think that those who 'follow blindly' and require no accountability of a reverend contribute to his delinquency? Seems to me that we could all be tempted to compromise if we weren't accountable to someone. I can testify as to the pitfalls! The old Pennsylvania Dutch saying - 'We are too soon old, and too late smart!'
Larry,
Please make your profile visible and change your screen name. We already have a "larry" who posts.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
Great commentary on the Round Rock pastor who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar is here.
NBBCOF...
Yes...and I particularly like this onetoo. :)
What a story!
Ima
"There have been far too many people that, having seen and understood what has gone on, have chosen to just ignore the obvious and hold the messengers responsible for running the sheep out the door. As long as they can feel good during the services and fill in the last blank of the outline all is right with the world. "
Aslan, You are right! Sin has been so dumbed down we do not recognize it anymore. All we have to do is say, 'sorry' and go right back into the pulpit. Scripture says different. They are no longer qualified.
Folks if the receipts and expenditures at BBC were looked at with a critical eye, you can rest assured that many things would be uncovered that are flat out wrong. Oh how easy it is to deceive when no one is watching.
Where is Round Rock and what kind of church is Fellowship At Forrest Creek?
Looks like that preacher took the whole cookie jar and the nearby bank account.
Round Rock, Texas is about 10 miles north of Austin, really a suburb of Austin.
The Fellowship
And let me introduce you to the purpose driven mafia.
Church Transitions, Inc.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Round Rock, Texas is about 10 miles north of Austin, really a suburb of Austin.
The Fellowship
From the Letter from Pastor Team on the church's website:
Your Pastors have been working constantly on
your behalf to move through the beginning stages of restoration.
Junkster asks: Restoration of whom? To what? Surely they aren't talking of restoring the pastor to the ministry!
Also from their website, under Announcements:
FINANCIAL COUNSELING …
Drew Merritt, a Certified Financial Planner, is now available for appointments through the Counseling and Recovery Center on Monday and Tuesday evenings. To schedule and appointment, please call the church office at xxx-xxxx.
Junkster asks: Who's teaching the teachers?
imaresistor said:
"Roddy Clyde is the guy interviewed by Suzanne Sataline for the Wall Street Journal article last September, in defense of Rick Warren along with Glen Sartain and Dan Southerland…the same article we were in. He commented about us thus and like so, “During a session titled "Dealing with Opposition," Mr. Clyde recommended that the pastor speak to critical members, then help them leave if they don’t stop objecting. Then when those congregants join a new church, Mr. Clyde instructed, pastors should call their new minister and suggest that the congregants be barred from any leadership role.”"
NASS, I encourage you to get a copy of SG's very last sermon at GFBC. This was a couple of Sundays after his resignation speech.
One thing he said really struck me as odd and inexplicable. He strongly admonished the GFBC flock not to let anyone come back into a leadership position if they had left the church because they had not submitted to SG's leadership.
Apparently, a certain former finance chairman and well respected pillar of the community had questioned SG on some things. This well respected deacon had been at GFBC for 30 - 40 years. He left GFBC and became a well respected leader at another large local Southern Baptist Church. This dear saint passed away a few months ago.
I think many people at GFBC knew exactly who SG was referring to that night.
I have often wondered what exactly this pillar of the community had questioned SG on and what SG did not like about it and why SG made it very uncomfortable for this dear saint to continue at GFBC.
The quote from Roddy Clyde: "Mr. Clyde instructed, pastors should call their new minister and suggest that the congregants be barred from any leadership role.”
struck me as eerily familiar.
Was SG afraid of what this dear saint would reveal about SG??
NASS you did a great job of reviewing SG's resignation speech. I was there and it seemed as if time slowed down and I remember it as if it were yesterday.
As I have mentioned before, I was in the dry eye section and glad to see him go. I have also spoken with others who said they were in the leaping for joy section.
It grieves my heart to see what SG has done to Bellevue.
BBNB wrote:
"I have also spoken with others who said they were in the leaping for joy section."
NASS pauses to wipe off screen... !
Ho hum. Here's another one.
On another note, Roddy Clyde won the prestigious Rick Warren "Healthy Church Award" for The Fellowship at Forrest Creek in 2005. What can you say.
ima wrote:
"What can you say."
I give up.
About the child molesters at the pulpit and music leadership...
What is the matter with these people? I'm talking about the people who say, "We believe in forgiveness." Forgiveness does NOT excuse you from consequences!!!! You can be forgiven all you want and still be ineligible for certain positions, especially one behind the pulpit!!!!
They literally have to throw out everything the Bible says about a minister's qualifications to put people like this in the pulpit and similar leadership positions.
When the Bible talks about these qualifications, it does NOT also say, "...unless they've been forgiven... in that case, throw out everything that was just written..."
Why does this have to be explained???
Ridiculous.
Ya know...I didn't think I could find a pastor any more insane than Gaines, but I found a pastor in California that well....asked the congregation to pray for the immediate deaths of some people who filed a complaint with the IRS after he endorsed Mike Huckabee for President in the Pulpit.
It doesn't matter if they were christians or athiests, calling for someone's death isn't exactly Christlike!
Pastor Calls for Deaths of those who complained to IRS about his church
This is from the 'original' Larry (sorry oc and other Larrys!)
Larry said...
and don't you think that those who 'follow blindly' and require no accountability of a reverend contribute to his delinquency? Seems to me that we could all be tempted to compromise if we weren't accountable to someone.
I believe with all my heart that many of those who 'follow blindly' truly believe they are following God. They sincerely believe that pastors know that they are accountable to God, and are not complicit in the wrongdoing of these carnal men. I believe (and I pray each and every day) that they are blameless. My hope is that they are every bit as (if not more than) appalled by the sins of the men in the front offices as we are.
I mean no offense to anyone with this, but I've read many posts about the pastor in Round Rock today. I can't help but remember the time Pastor Rogers exercised church discipline at Bellevue.
This corrupt pastor is a cause for shame, not joy. It's a day for us to put on sackcloth and ashes. It's surely tempting for us to delight in the confirmed hypocrisy of a 'purpose driven' preacher, but we must not.
That church is terribly divided tonight, and we need to pray for them with all our hearts.
Father, only you can restore glory to your church. Raise beauty from the ashes, and honor from shame.
"The Chicago Sun-Times on Monday reported a story about First Baptist Church of Romeoville, Ill., which allowed a convicted child-sex offender to preach from its pulpit for three years, despite knowing about his past."
"In our church, we believe in forgiveness," the newspaper quoted one of the church's deacons who hired 42-year-old Jeff Hannah to step into the pulpit after the former pastor moved on amid controversy over the fact that he had been divorced and remarried."
IMO, that is stupid, blind and cold hearted to fuss over divorce and roll out the red carpet for a "convicted child-sex offender"!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Will this never end?!
God please, please heal those young men who were misled and violated.
And Lord Jesus, please come soon.
ima,
...but wait. I thought success was based on numbers. Clyde took a group of 65 and turned it into 2,000 so what's the big deal?
I guess people can be deceived after all. I am not surprised that there are so many in his church that can't go on without him.
Don't be surprised as Steve Gaines has a cult like following that will go on his Holyland Trips at 30% inflated prices, and allow him to take a $500,000 package plus more perks that an old coffee pot.
I don't see much difference between Clyde's $500,000 fleecing and SG's $500,000 fleecing since the masses don't know and the elders who surround Steve agree that it's none of their business.
Anyone who stays in this type of situation reminds me of a cultlike following.
32yrs@bbc said Those who have chosen to stay and be supportive of the
"new" Bellevue need to be left in peace and covered with prayer by their brothers and sisters in Christ. Those of us who have chosen to leave and become members of other churches need to be left in peace and covered with prayer by their brothers and sisters in Christ.
I read this this morning and have been mulling it over in my LITTLE brain all day.....This really bothers me to think that we are just to walk off and leave BBC. Are we not taught to stand for our beliefs...What if all christians just walked away from every conflict in the church and let the world rule..Is that what has happened to too many of our churches. Yes we should be in prayer but don't just cover it in prayer and walk away.Kindof like it all being covered with the blood so it is o.k.no matter what has been done. My LITTLE brain is still trying to think on this one...Any help out there??
NASS
A statement from your link at 7:08:
Charles Hamby, the church's former pastor, told the Sun-Times he saw nothing wrong with putting two child molesters in worship roles. "We're a church that believes in grace and redemption," he said.
Piglet says:
Well, I have heard this mantra now at two Memphis area mega-churches.
Sermons on forgiveness abound because we don't hold to the SCRIPTURAL QUALIFICATIONS for ministers anymore and call it FORGIVENESS.
Some of our clergy are brain dead and consider it a spiritual gift.
Piglet said: "Some of our clergy are brain dead and consider it a spiritual gift."
A Quote for your books, friends!
"Charles Hamby, the church's former pastor, told the Sun-Times he saw nothing wrong with putting two child molesters in worship roles. "We're a church that believes in grace and redemption," he said."
Grrrrr.... Will someone pass the duct tape, please?
lwood said:
read this this morning and have been mulling it over in my LITTLE brain all day.....This really bothers me to think that we are just to walk off and leave BBC. Are we not taught to stand for our beliefs...What if all christians just walked away from every conflict in the church and let the world rule..Is that what has happened to too many of our churches. Yes we should be in prayer but don't just cover it in prayer and walk away.Kindof like it all being covered with the blood so it is o.k.no matter what has been done. My LITTLE brain is still trying to think on this one...Any help out there
SOTL says:
I do understand what you are saying, but if we stay at BBC, we are not being fed. I want to go and worship with a pastor who loves his sheep. Going to church to get beat down by the shepherd is no good. What good are we doing ourselves by putting ourselves in that situation?
Also, for those of us with children, I do not want my son to hear Phil Newberry stand up there and tell the kids that " the blog is evil", when it was THIS blog that caused the PW situation to come to light. When he says things like that, he is undermining MY values to my child.
It's difficult enough as it is to convince my teenager that he needs to leave the only church he has ever known and go to a different church and start over. I dont need Phil Newberry making it worse.
Phil Newberry has been one of the BIGGEST disappointments to me in this entire ordeal. I pray that the scales will be removed from his eyes.
lwood said: I read this this morning and have been mulling it over in my LITTLE brain all day.....This really bothers me to think that we are just to walk off and leave BBC. Are we not taught to stand for our beliefs...What if all christians just walked away from every conflict in the church and let the world rule..Is that what has happened to too many of our churches. Yes we should be in prayer but don't just cover it in prayer and walk away.Kindof like it all being covered with the blood so it is o.k.no matter what has been done. My LITTLE brain is still trying to think on this one...Any help out there??
oc says:
Who walked off? Was it you and others who chose the way of the 'broad path', the easy super highway of relativism, humanism, and 'excusism', or was it the 'leadership' who made the left turn from the right lane against the light of Scripture and into the oncoming traffic of sin?
Who left who? Did you leave BBC?
Or did BBC leave you?
Just questions.
oc.
Charles Hamby, the church's former pastor, told the Sun-Times he saw nothing wrong with putting two child molesters in worship roles. "We're a church that believes in grace and redemption," he said
SOTL says:
Pounding Head On Keyboard
Want to borrow my duct tape?
SOTL says:
Pounding Head On Keyboard
oc says:
Very attractive. QWERTYUIOP[] across your forehead.
Please tell me this is not the 'mark'. Because I have it too.
:)
The title of this entry is "My Worst Sunday Ever". Previously I would have viewed my late husband's death as my worst Sunday ever, but that changed a couple of days ago.
The latest is that Ace is now a teacher in my daughter's 8:00 am BF department. Horror of horrors. Our children are in danger. I will be speaking to the youth ministers about this in person before the week is up. They already know of my concern, but we'll go into greater depth in person. Those of you new to the blog might not understand how upsetting this is. Others of you who have been around a while can feel my pain. I’ve already posted about the “bucks” the children will receive for nominating prayer requests. But let me move on…..
So we leave BBC, mom rather upset, and go off to Faith Baptist. They have grades 6-12 together for opening assembly before dividing into grade classes. I stayed for the opening, then thought they were about to disperse, so I went on into church. I should have stayed. They turned on a video from Lifeway, the "Fuel" series. You can view it on www.lifeway.com/fuel. The story is imaginary high schoolers making life choices. The students are supposed to watch the video and then discuss it in their grade classes and build their Bible study around it. One of the story lines on Sunday was a high school girl visiting an abortion clinic to decide whether or not to keep her baby. Yes, my little 6th grade daughter is in a coed class with high schoolers viewing this and then going off to discuss it among her other (young and immature) 6th grade peers. This I am not happy about. I will give my daughter all the information she needs at the right time with my faith and values guiding her. I repeat: At the right time. When she is ready for it. When I am ready for her to know it. That is my right and privilege as her mom.
Used to we went to Sunday School and learned Bible doctrine and studied great heroes of the faith. Now you can play video games, pool, and get your sex education at church.
We moms wonder what other videos they will show about other life choices? Will there be a couple in the back seat of a car deciding how far to go? How will the girl's parents take her pregnancy announcement? Will they handle it like I would or present a different view point? Will this influence my daughter to confide in me or not? One video clip on the Lifeway site shows a guy making the move on a female at the water fountain at school, and he is not going carefully about how he feels about her, especially her physical traits. Anyhow, this is not 6th grade stuff for a Sunday morning (my humble opinion). There is a request in to speak with the youth minister, but he hasn't returned either of my two phone calls.
So now, any ideas where we can worship as a family???
First of all, you do not have to tolerate this stuff. This is not what church is supposed to be. There is nothing Christ-like in what you have said in your post.
As I see it, there is the church concernedsbcer attends. Other choices include...and I have mentioned this several times: the people who have come out of BBC could organize their own church. There are enough of you to do it. I am talking about a true church. Then, there are home churches.
The last thing you would want is more of the same. The situation you currently have at Faith...anytime you have to requests meetings to ask a church NOT to do something because it is offensive to you...it is also offensive to Jesus. If it were me, I'd move on.
I pray that things will work out for you.
lwood,
I understand your mulling....not the LITTLE brain part:)
I also think I understand 32+'s heart.
My daughter says I have
"a justice thing".
I hate letting these CEO bullies lie, manipulate and hijack the church we all once felt so safe in...and get off scott free.
But for myself and others it's unhealthy to go back in that building on Appling Road.
I used to think James Dobson or Charles Stanley or Page Patterson and whoever else , would call SG and these men out and demand that they repent or leave.
Or maybe the local ministers would meet with them and take a stand.
Never that they would just look the other way, be intimidated, or care more about their salary, position, and friends than being men of God.
We are all in different stages of shock, anger, disappointment, grief.
I guess my point is we HAVE taken a stand and we HAVE spoken the truth. But we can't control any thing at BBC.
As we are able, we can be an encouragement, be sensitive,teach each other,comfort...and allow each other to be who we are and where we are in this healing process.
Nothing new...what we have been doing for some time now.
AND...just for fun....we take a few breaks to do something silly like bowl together!!! Or as SG says...have our clandestine meetings!!!LOL
memphismom02,
I am so sorry for your terrible sunday (((hugs)))
Which youth minister are you meeting with? BBC's or Faith's?
Also, about this ace character... has he (she?) even proven himself as dangerous? I've only been viewing the blog for the past few months.
hw
OC...very clever tonight!!
memphismom,
why is it so difficult to bring children to a proper SS class....to study the Bible??!!
I love the ministers on this blog and mean no disrespect....
but even the SBC ministers whose hearts are right...
for now, many aren't questioning the trends coming down from the SBC or from Lifeway and we know better.
hw,
It's a "he." Go to the February archives of this blog and read the topic "Meet Mr. Ace!" At least that's a good start. Then come back and tell us if that's the kind of person you'd want teaching your kids.
memphismom02
May I recommend Covenant Baptist on Houston Levee? I haven't moved my letter yet but have been visiting. Since I have been looking, it is the first church I've found that I believe is truly Christ centered. Good old Bibical preaching and hymn singing.
carolt,
you know that is concernesbcer's church,
right????
My advise and what I have chosen to do.....
get out of the SBC box.
The non demoninationals may be a problem because who are they accountable to?
(not that SBCs are accountable to anyone)
Try River Oaks..not expecting anything but Bible teaching and non show place music.
All the SS classes are for Bible study not entertainment.
It's different but refreshing....for myself and Lily pad anyway.
MemphisMom: Please join me at Covenant Baptist. Our SS classes are still learning about the Bible.
(We do, unfortunately, still use Lifeway curriculum, but we use the "old-fashioned" kind...the ones that tell Bible stories for the kids)
gmommy,
I'm just not quite ready to give up on "Southern Baptist" - although they are pushing all the right buttons to send me sailing. Maybe it is just nostalgia, but Covenant reminds me of "church" before it got so messed up with all the mess that so many seem to require to "properly" worship.
Personally, I can do without the vibrating chest, the pounding headache, and white knuckle gripping of the chair/bench in front to keep from boltomg out screaming like a bandshee. Most of the reading and the blanks have been filled in before I can get myself together again. I guess it comes down to "survival of the fittest" lol.
ho-hum - so lacking in interest as to cause mental weariness; "a boring evening with uninteresting people"; "the deadening effect of some routine tasks"
Is this the word you really want to use to describe another sickening child molestation case?
I don't think this is your intent but words do have meaning and this is more of what I see SG did concerning PW.
I hope if we are going to deal with molestation we deal with it honestly and speak to the issue for what it is, sickening not ho-hum.
Memphismom02,
would you please e-mail me at the address in my profile?
Thanks!
Standing
11yrs wrote:
"Is this the word you really want to use to describe another sickening child molestation case?
"I don't think this is your intent but words do have meaning and this is more of what I see SG did concerning PW.
"I hope if we are going to deal with molestation we deal with it honestly and speak to the issue for what it is, sickening not ho-hum."
Of course that's not how I view any case of child molestation! How dare you! I think I've written enough in the past that you know good and well that's not the case! It's "ho hum" in the respect that it's "here we go again." It seems, sadly, that these cases are almost an everyday occurrence in the news now.
I also don't think "ho hum" describes SG's attitude either. I think with him it was a case of, "I don't need another negative thing to deal with right now, so I'm going to make sure this one's 'under the blood' (i.e. the rug) and out of my hands." And I'm still not convinced PW didn't know something that SG didn't want getting out. That's JMO.
P.S. I think "ho hum" is a pretty good description of much of the SBC leadership's views of it though.
My mother and a friend of hers from choir received an unsigned, with no return address document, 6-8 pages long chronicling the "sins of Steve Gaines". There are about 4 pages that detail the sermon about unity. Has anyone else received this document and does anyone know who mailed it out? While my mother agrees with the content of the document, it's kind of freaky to receive such a mailing. IDC has nothing to do with this document so I'm not sure who else would send it out.
karen
Karen--Lets get those eight pages posted on here.
Karen,
I was just penning a comment asking that same question. I haven't seen the document, but I heard about it from someone who received one. It was unsigned and had no return address. Anonymity on the internet is one thing. Sending personal, first-class, anonymous letters is quite another. Does anyone know anything about this? Did anyone else receive a copy? I'd like to see it.
concernedSBCer said...
Piglet said: "Some of our clergy are brain dead and consider it a spiritual gift."
A Quote for your books, friends!
Piglet-ism #154! LOVE IT!
hw said....
Also, about this ace character... has he (she?) even proven himself as dangerous? I've only been viewing the blog for the past few months.
Ace made himself out to be a troll, a liar and a menace to people on this blog and I have no doubt his attituder permeates his "real life". I've been privy to his whinings online about not being 1st chair violin player in the orchestra - he kept track of who's been late to orchestra, who's been late, etc. So I have NO doubt that his bad, nasty, immature attitude will be a detriment to a SS class. Phil Newberry, reconsider this person has a leader of children - I have the emails "ace" has sent me and I'm sure others here can cough up the proof of "ace" being a poor choice to lead children. Ace led me to believe he was Steven Coombs which led me to speak to David Coombs the day of the "report" - if that's not deceitful, I don't know what is.
karen
NASS,
I'll go get it after work and scan it to you.
It's really creepy not to know where it came from.
How was it addressed to your friend. Mom's and her friend's were addressed with only their 1st initial and last name.
karen
hw,
I was paying for a cruise for "ACE" to go on with some other violin players, including my son.
LIttle did I know that he was on this very blog, slamming me, making fun of me, while accepting my gift. During this time, he was also going out to dinner after Wednesday night church with us, KNOWING that he was going to slam me later on the blog.
AFTER he got caught and " OUTED" on the blog, he sent me a letter of apology, but never apologized to my face. He was certainly accepting of my gift to my face, and a REAL man would have apologized to my face.
If this is not an example of deceit, I don't know what is.
I got one of those anonymous letters yesterday. The fact that it had no return address and wasn't signed was irritating. At first, I thought maybe someone from the blog had sent it out, but the contents basically point out "issues" with SG's sermons--which I think the majority on the blog might agree with, (well, at least some of it,)--so I guess I'm confused as to why the time and money was spent to send this out...it was like this person was "preaching to the choir". I actually was expecting the letter to contain a plan of action--something to actually DO about the problems at BBC--calling a meeting or SOMETHING--but it did not. So, what was the point??? I'm curious how this person got my personal information...It made me very uncomfortable not knowing how or why I was on a "mailing list" of this sort...If anyone finds out where this letter originated, post it on the blog or e-mail me. Thanks.
Karen,
I'm not sure how it was addressed, but the people I know who received it are also in the choir.
Colossians,
Are you in the choir?
colossians wrote:
"If anyone finds out where this letter originated, post it on the blog or e-mail me."
You don't have an e-mail address on your profile.
Yesterday, Lynn posted this:
Lynn said...
Ya know...I didn't think I could find a pastor any more insane than Gaines, but I found a pastor in California that well....asked the congregation to pray for the immediate deaths of some people who filed a complaint with the IRS after he endorsed Mike Huckabee for President in the Pulpit.
It doesn't matter if they were christians or athiests, calling for someone's death isn't exactly Christlike!
Pastor Calls for Deaths of those who complained to IRS about his church
8:29 PM, August 21, 2007
I read this comment and the linked article and had to stop and wonder just what is happening to the portion of God's people that call themselves Southern Baptists.
The pastor that called for his people to ask God to kill the men that asked the IRS to investigate, pastors (really?) the church that my grandfather planted in 1950. I am sure that if my grandfather were alive today to see what is going on in this church and The Southern Baptist Convention that he would weep openly, as he did so many times in my presence as I was growing up.
In my formative years my grandfather kept me close to him as he ministered to the people of Southern Clifornia. I was there when he prayed for them in the early morning, when he visited with them in thier homes, when he listened to thier troubles and heartaches.
I was there when he met with other area pastors for fellowship and accountability and to call one another to doctrinal purity.
I watched him gently lead spiritually weak deacons and firmly stand for the RIGHT Things, as outlined in scripture.
Never did he demand his way, unless what was being asked of him was contradictory to the plain reading of scripture. Then he stood his ground, looked people in the eye (he was always ready to meet with his sheep in person)and like Martin Luther challenged them to demonstrate with scripture that he was in error.
This man taught me the history of The Southern Baptist Convention and in 4 cities in Southern California were found a church that was simply named "The First Southern Baptist Church of..." (one of which refuses to go by that name any longer).
He was unashamed to be called a Southern Baptist but today, I hesitate, because of the shame that men and women which lack true Biblical insight and worst of all lack a genuine walk with God, have brought upon our denomination.
Several days a week we are confronted with new instances of men that choose to act out hideuos, vile desires upon those whom they have been entrusted to be protectors and examples of the love of The Father. We see men who think nothing of violating the trust of The People of God by being careless, frivolous and in some instances actually stealing the offerings that many have given in sacrifice as love-gifts to The Father.
Who and what are these men worshipping?
Grandad, I am grateful that you only have eyes for The Father now. It would break my heart completely to have to see you weep over the state of affairs we have found ourselves in.
This I will do for you.
I will hold those around me acountable for not speaking up when error creeps in to The Church.
I will hold fast to The Word and commit to make sure that I look first to it as my guide and not the wisdom of men.
I will trust The Word to guide me in righteousness and follow it down any slippery slope that it guides me.
I will pray, not for the destruction of men, but for restoration. Restoration of fellowship, integrity and accountability.
How you meant ho-hum is one thing when not explained. Without explanation all I can do is respond to the words used.
How dare I?
How dare I let this slip through. It was for your sake I asked. I was not accusing but asking because of how it read. I even stated I don't think this was your intent but was seeking clarification.
No need to be testy to those who are not complaining but trying to help.
aslansown,
Knowing what I know of you, I believe that you will keep those promises to your granddad.
karen
lwood - if you are around could you email me please? NASS knows who I am if you want to verify things with her first.
Thanks Karen. Count on it.
AslansOwn: What a powerful post at 11:49. As the heir of similar men as you, I completely understood "where you were coming from" and desire as well to see our denomination return to spiritual purity and accountability. Three of my four adult children have left the Southern Baptist denominiation, and I understand why. However, I pray for people like us, and places like this blog, to open eyes and touch hearts to a return of reverence, responsibility and accountability to God and His Word.
11yrs wrote:
"How you meant ho-hum is one thing when not explained. Without explanation all I can do is respond to the words used."
I thought the meaning was obvious in the context in which it was used, and I had hoped any response would be to the information in the article, not my link to it. I think anyone who's read much of what I've written would understand that I in no way minimize the issue of child abuse.
Again, I meant "ho hum" as in "Oh no, not again!" Not the "so what" reaction you seemed to suspect. I apologize for my "testiness" and for not making my meaning more clear.
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