Sunday, August 05, 2007

Sign It or Yer Out!


At a recent coaches' meeting BBC's volunteer coaches were given the following documents to fill out and sign and told that it would be mandatory if they wished to continue coaching.

The
first document includes the Basic Application, the Leadership Covenant, a Background Information sheet, and a Volunteer Authorization/Consent & Release form. It is obvious from the wording of the "Leadership Covenant" that it was written for use with Sunday School teachers and other workers.

The
second document includes the Coaches Covenant and a sheet concerning Biblical Peacemaking.

Finally, attached was a
copy of A Summary of Your Rights Under the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Can we assume this means there will be credit checks, too?

In this day and age I don't think anyone who's going to work with minors should object to a criminal background check, but the "loyalty oath" and checking members' giving records is too much. The latter has already been happening for some time. People have already been "called on the carpet" for not giving as much as Steve Gaines thought they should. I wonder if it's ever occurred to him that some people drop cash in the collection plate. So how does he know people aren't tithing 10%? And even if he knows how much someone gives, how does he know how much someone makes? They've got your Social Security number and a signed release to do what? Check with your bank?

Of all the red flags that were raised as I read through these documents (and they were legion), the one that stood out the most was this one:

"I waive any right that I may have to inspect references provided on my behalf."

So if a background check shows something in someone's past that is questionable, and the person questions it, he is waiving his right to ever see the information? Think about the implications of that!

Recent numbers I saw revealed that the number of Sunday School classes at BBC for 8th through 12th graders for the coming year has been reduced from 126 to 75. That's a decrease of 40% and a loss of 102 teachers (two per class). At that time they were still short 30 teachers or about 20% of the number needed. Perhaps if this is accurate, there has been a similar reduction in the number of youth participating in sports. So maybe by requiring the coaches to sign these covenants and other agreements they're weeding out the "dissenters" while reducing the staff to the actual number of coaches needed. It would certainly ensure that only the "loyal" remain.

This comment was left by "junkster" in this thread and deserves highlighting:

From the BBC Volunteer Application, last page (Volunteer Authorization/Consent & Release):

I FURTHER AUTHORIZE ALL GOVERNMENTAL, LAW ENFORCEMENT, LICENSE AND RECORD-KEEPING AGENCIES AND ANY OTHER SOURCE TO PROVIDE ALL INFORMATION REQUESTED WITH RESPECT TO MY BACKGROUND, INCLUDING CRIMINAL RECORDS, TO BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH AND/OR ITS AGENT, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO PROTECT MY MINISTRY AND/OR BLUE LINE INVESTIGATION.

Note the words "record keeping agencies and any other source." Signing this form authorizes BBC to do a credit/financial check. From such checks it is easy to determine one's income, which can then be used to check tithing records (assuming donations are not given anonymously, which they usually aren't, so people can claim them as charitable donations on their tax deductions.)

But even scarier is that signing this would authorize BBC to collect background information from any source, including, in theory, your school records, traffic tickets, video rentals, library records, medical history, psychological/psychiatric history, etc. I doubt that just because I signed a church document my doctors would share my medical records with my church without checking with me first, but my point is that, legally speaking, by signing that document I'd be authorizing pretty much anything. It would not be wise or prudent to sign that sort of release, for a church or for anyone.


Sunday School teachers, staff members, ushers, choir and orchestra members, and... déjà vu, deacons... all beware. Your day is coming! Choose you this day whom you will serve!

626 comments:

1 – 200 of 626   Newer›   Newest»
oc said...

I wanna be first.

oc said...

Yes! What do I win, Johnny?

oc said...

yes, oc. You have one three posts with no moderation. Enjoy....

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

And if you don't cut it out, the fun is going to be short-lived.

oc said...

ok, ok. Sorry. But, Johnny mispelled 'won', and is required to make a visit to Agent SOTL to be fitted for his new cement boots.
Just sayin.

gmommy said...

The stepford wives (or stepford coaches and teachers), Big brother is watching (secretly from behind the score board),
give your SS #,sign your alliegence to the man, waive all your rights....
perfect set up for more abuse of power.

How is all this explained away?
Who will not have a check in their spirit about all this?

oc said...

Just me and you NASS.
Let's go ice fishin'.

oc said...

Hi gmommy. Thanks for showing up to keep me out of trouble.

gmommy said...

oc...is that a death threat??
Oh my...you will be reported on the other blog!!

Did anyone hear from the other thread that BBC and SG loves you just the way you are????????

gmommy said...

Don't the men that sign all that feel disrespected and controlled?????

Don't the men who have wives feel uncomfortable with their wives signing??

Do you have to give a blood sample also.
What happens if you give less one month than you gave another month??
Will you be called....visited without a call first???

OC...I don't think the men in Texas would put up with this.

oc said...

Yeah, ice fishin'. That's code,you know. Minnesota mafia.

oc said...

gmommy,
I don't think that any man should sign his allegiance away from the One who redeemed him from slavery, only to enslave himself and promise bondage to another.
This Texan wouldn't.

Just sayin.
oc.

Piglet said...

You guys remember the "Prize Patrol" with Webb Williams and Rob Mullins? That was a hoot and I still want that DVD.

Can you envision the "Tithe Patrol"? A couple of goons cruising the halls of BBC with a billy club and brass knuckles, with videos every Sunday of delinquent tithers getting roughed up in front of their SS classes?

The new BBC....

gmommy said...

piglet,
what a picture..........

Piglet said...

OC

I was born in Fort Worth. Good things come out of Texas don't they?

Good night OC, gmommy, NBBCOF, and lurkers everywhere...

oc said...

Piglet said:

Can you envision the "Tithe Patrol"? A couple of goons cruising the halls of BBC with a billy club and brass knuckles, with videos every Sunday of delinquent tithers getting roughed up in front of their SS classes?

The new BBC....

oc says:
They aren't doing this yet? Oh well, maybe next week. As long as there are no terroristic 15 year old girls to subdue.

oc said...

yep. Well sure, you came from there.
Night Piglet.

imaresistor said...

"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, SWEAR NOT AT ALL; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: "- Matthew 5:33-34 (emphasis added).

oc said...

Ima,
Amen.

Piglet:
Sure good things come out of Texas. Some of us just don't stay there, we go on to bless the rest of the nation.

Night.

32yrs@bbc said...

Concernedsbcer:
Please forgive me for offending you. It certainly was not my intention. I have some close friends at Covenant who were among the founders from Parkway Village Bapt. The original split did come from Ridgeway, and those people formed the second church that split. And, yes, much of it was caused by an unwillingness to go down the contemporary/seeker friendly path. And, yes, Bro. Davey was much loved by his flock
(and they grieved greatly when the Lord took him on Home), and was a kind and loving shepherd of his people. However, My friends feel they are growing more in the Word now and that is God's doing and a praise to Him for His goodness and mercy to Covenant Baptist. I am sure Bro. Davey is smiling in heaven and rejoicing over God's blessings on his beloved church. The other error I made was regarding the maturity of the founders - this was the Parkway Village group. I did not know anyone in the group you were in.

concernedSBCer said...

32+: Please be sure to read the end of the last thread. I posted some information about Covenant Baptist that you need to know.
:)

(I tried to write you but no email address in your profile. Mine is there, though, if you need to write me.)

(My verification is COWHP Is that a cow that has a computer?)

gopher said...

What's in Your Wallet?

gopher said...

The leadership is replacing volunteers with paid workers (interns) who don't even stay the full alloted time of the sport. So what's the motive for being there, a paycheck?

Pastor Rogers used to say something like this, "don't expect someone to do for money what you won't do for love"

Lin said...

On the first document under the heading 'Responsibility', there is a line that states:

With God as my help, I will make a commitment to:

Support the Senior Pastor, staff and leadership. They quote Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account.

They 'forgot'the last part of verse 17: Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

And of course verse 18 would not fit too well for them either:

18Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things.

So, I guess the blind sheep at Bellevue believe verse 17a
pertains to following false teachers and wolves.

You know what would be interesting? If one brave soul, would mark out that part then sign the papers and see what would happen?

I would NEVER sign a paper calling me to support a specific person such as a 'Senior Pastor'.

It should read, "Support and submit to GODLY LEADERS"

But, it can't say that...Gaines does not even qualify according to this document!

amazed said...

Attn: Sheeps:

There is a meeting for sunday school teachers at 8:00 AM Saturday.

Would you like to take a guess as to what will be presented to the teachers? Your first two guesses don't count.

concernedSBCer said...

32+: Thank you for your response. I do understand how much we all love Bro. Sam's preaching. However, it takes mature (in the faith) Christians to found and grow a church and we have been fed very well in the entire (almost) 10 years of our existence. I hope you'll visit soon, and let me know so we can meet!
:)

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Would you like to take a guess as to what will be presented to the teachers?"

Doughnuts?

concernedSBCer said...

Could donuts be construed as bribery?

WaterGate said...

Do we need a co-signer to complete the paperwork??

Karen said...

I don't think fogmachine will mind, so I'm reposting his post from last night since it fits here:

fogmachine said...
Sign my covenant or stop teaching.
Sign my covenant or stop coaching.
Sign my covenant or stop singing.
Sign my covenant or stop complaining.
If you don't like secrecy at BBC, get lost.
If you don't like me operating in secrecy, get lost.
If you think you have a right to know how the church money is being spent, get lost.
Secrecy, clandestine meetings inside church leadership and government is cowardly Steve. If you actually said something correct last night, you hit the nail on the head on this one.
There is no secret kept from God.
If we ask questions about the church, call us troublemakers.
False accusations are terrible Steve. You are also correct in that you have talked yourself into believing your own words.

11:33 PM, August 06, 2007

WaterGate said...

OPTION #1

Sign a hold-harmless agreement, then you may be considered for a life time membership!

Junkster said...

concernedSBCer said...
Could donuts be construed as bribery?

Or could they be construed as a death threat? Clogged arteries, higher blood sugar, increased abdominal fat .. all leading killers, and all results of too many donuts.

"Just sayin'" (c) MMVII, OC Productions

concernedSBCer said...

Repost from previous thread:

I want a pastor who I can call on, who walks with me through hard times.............who teaches the word every Sunday from the pulpit and every Monday through Saturday in his life.

If you have a pastor like this, there is no need for loyalty pledges, is there?

WaterGate said...

If you will notice, in the BBC sermons or invitations, few times if any you will hear the word repent. Yet the Bible says, "Repent or you will all likewise parish."

I suppose the logic is make it as easy as you can for people to join without calling sin, sin and calling the lost, sinners.

concernedSBCer said...

Watergate: Good point. However, when the pastor has so much unconfessed sin, kinda hard to do that, maybe?

Junkster said...

WaterGate said...
Yet the Bible says, "Repent or you will all likewise parish."

And if a whole church refuses to repent, the parish will perish.

amazed said...

Watergate:

A lawyer would be more appropriate then a co-signer. He could explain the pitfalls in signing such garbage.

feelingblue said...

Amazed - I know there is a leadership meeting for teachers in the Student Ministry at 8, 9:30 & 11, depending on what hour you serve, but are there meetings for the other ministries as well (preschool, children, adults, etc.)? Thanks.

amazed said...

Feelingblue:

My former sunday school teacher has to be there at eight oclock, so I know for sure the adult classes are covered.

Lin said...

What is the point of this convenant? Is it for discipline? If so, how can that be when Gaines would not even practice biblical discipline with PW? Or himself?

allofgrace said...

Here's a church covenant where I'm attending. New members are required to sign it as a means of discipline and accountability. Notice there's no mention of loyalty to a pastor. Link

feelingblue said...

Amazed - I forgot to mention that the Student Ministry meetings are Sunday am, not Saturday.

Churchmouse said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Junkster said...

From the BBC Volunteer Application, last page (Volunteer Authorization/Consent & Release):

I FURTHER AUTHORIZE ALL GOVERNMENTAL, LAW ENFORCEMENT, LICENSE AND RECORD-KEEPING AGENCIES AND ANY OTHER SOURCE TO PROVIDE ALL INFORMATION REQUESTED WITH RESPECT TO MY BACKGROUND, INCLUDING CRIMINAL RECORDS, TO BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH AND/OR ITS AGENT, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO PROTECT MY MINISTRY AND/OR BLUE LINE INVESTIGATION.

Note the words "record keeping agencies and any other source". Signing this form authorizes BBC to do a credit/financial check. From such checks it is easy to determine one's income, which can then be used to check tithing records (assuming donations are not given anonymously, which they usually aren't, so people can claim them as charitable donations on their tax deductions.)

But even scarier it that signing this would authorize BBC to collect background information from any source, including, in theory, your school records, traffic tickets, video rentals, library records, medical history, psychological/psychiatric history, etc. I doubt that just because I signed a church document my doctors would share my medical records with my church without checking with me first, but my point is that, legally speaking, by signing that document I'd be authorizing pretty much anything. It would not be wise or prudent to sign that sort of release, for a church or for anyone.

sickofthelies said...

In November, Dr. R. will be gone two years.

How far BBC has fallen since then. The building is a hollow shell, as are those who follow blindly.

gmommy said...

allofgrace,
That is so beautiful ....probably not the word to use but what my heart feels as I read it.

COMPARE the committment from this church to the "oath" from BBC!

all out there on the fence or confused.....compare one to the other and see which one lines up with scripture.

MOM4 said...

It will be interesting to see how many of his supporters will recognize this as a wake-up call and how many will blindly follow?

If Steve Gaines had undergone anywhere near this kind of scrutiny BEFORE he was brought to Bellevue we wouldn't be where we are today ! (that is assuming the process was performed by an honest search committee without an underlying agenda).

Constance said...

December 2006 - July 2007:
"How DARE they not do thorough background checks with those who interact with our children! This is an outrage!"

August 2007:
"How DARE they do thorough background checks with those who interact with our children! This is an outrage!"

gmommy said...

mom4,
AMEN!

Junkster said...

MOM4 said...
If Steve Gaines had undergone anywhere near this kind of scrutiny BEFORE he was brought to Bellevue we wouldn't be where we are today !

Interesting concept ... would SG be willing to sign such a document himself? Why is it ok for the church to ask for that kind of info of its members, but members can't have the same level of info on the pastor?

MOM4 said...

constance,
Dear one, you missed the point. Please read EVERYTHING IN CONTEXT before you make such a foolish assumption. We/us/I have ALWAYS said that a background check is necessary, especially nowdays, but this goes into a personal realm that is beyond ethical. As Pooh would say, "Think, think, think".

On another note, Bellevue has ALWAYS done background checks on the volunteers and teachers. (How do you think PW had access to his victims - they filled out the required questionaire honestly and he used the info to prey upon them!
NO one here is objecting to a standard background check!

Karen said...

junk,

You are correct - by signing the statement the way it's worded, BBC will have authorization to check into every aspect of your private life. While I agree that background checks need to be done to weed out child predators, I'm not sure what purpose a financial check would serve unless it is to find out family income and make sure the church is getting what it thinks is owed to it.

HIPAA laws have gotten stricter over the past few years, but I'm not so sure medical records wouldn't be covered by this wording of the document.

I think anyone who signs this document is opening themselves up for more than they bargained for. Those who sign - remember I've said for 2 years now - WHEN SOMETHING STEVE GAINES DOES DIRECTLY AFFECTS YOU, YOU'LL KNOW HOW I AND OTHERS HAVE FEEL.

The beating of the sheep into submission just goes on and on.

karen

sickofthelies said...

For those of you naive enough to think that the information they obtain about you would be kept confidential, just remember this:

Those of us that were REQUIRED to go to " counseling" so that we could VOLUNTEER found our files had been rifled through by total strangers, looking for possible information that could be used against them.

Also, don't forget that David Coombs himself had access to my file, and called me, while holding it in his hands 11 years after my " confidential" counseling session.. Just how confidential was it???

CONFIDENTIAL is a relative term at BBC. It is only confindential unless they need your information for some purpose.

Anyone that signs that form has serious " naive" issues.

Here's a definition of the word,
Naive, just in case you need to have it defined for you:

NAIVE:
Showing or characterized by a lack of sophistication and critical judgment

Piglet said...

Constance said...
December 2006 - July 2007:
"How DARE they not do thorough background checks with those who interact with our children! This is an outrage!"

August 2007:
"How DARE they do thorough background checks with those who interact with our children! This is an outrage!"

Piglet says:

I think everyone here agrees to background checks on folks working with our kids. A credit check, however, allows them to replace the Holy Spirit in keeping up with our tithes.

By the way, this is inconsistent with the pastor regarding his OWN business - since he refuses to release financial information that we are entitled to BY LAW and keeps HIS salary a secret.

And the problem with PW would NOT have been avoided with a background check. It would have been avoided if we had a pastor with COMMON SENSE.

And churchmouse, I'm with you - I wnat our names OFF the roll! If the Lord should return, I don't want to have to explain....

Karen said...

constance,

Please sign a loyalty oath to me - you don't know what I'll do with it and you don't know who I'll show the findings to and you won't have the right to object if the information keeps you from participating at BBC in some way.

Sounds like a GREAT plan, huh?

Answer me this: For what reason would BBC need to know about my finances if I volunteered to serve the children of BBC? I totally understand and submit to the background check to see if I have a criminal record, but for what reason would they be interested in my finances?

karen

Karen said...

Just a quick note: On the page of the document that talks about resolving conflicts, please note it mentions the use of Matthew 18.

According to Steve Gaines, Matthew 18 is just a "guideline", not a Biblical mandate.

Just sayin'

karen

MOM4 said...

Piglet,
August 12th sounds more and more like a perfect time to remove our names from the roll, not that they'd care.
After this, I cannot help but think that someone on staff would get a clue? What are the clerical, secretarial and other staff going to do, sign or get fired? I would think that the EEOC may have something to say about this - church or not? These people are NOT ordained ministers, therefore the employment laws may apply to them? Anyone know?

New BBC Open Forum said...

constance,

Please make your profile visible or your comment(s) will be subject to deletion.

Now, to answer what you seem to see as a contradiction...

Did you read the topic heading in which I said this?

"In this day and age I don't think anyone who's going to work with minors should object to a criminal background check, but the "loyalty oath" and checking members' giving records is too much."

I've not heard anyone say they object to a criminal background check being done on anyone who is going to be working with children. So where are you getting this? You write as if you're quoting people, and you are NOT!

New BBC Open Forum said...

I suppose I answered my own question when I asked if "constance" had read the topic heading. In addition to quoting quotes that were never made, s/he apparently didn't read the posting guidelines either.

Hey, "constance," I've got something I'd like you to sign! I just need your full name, bank name and checking account number, ATM card number, and PIN. You may e-mail that information to the address in my profile. Thanks!

Psalm46 said...

All -

I am one of the former BBC coaches. I believe I speak for many of us when I say this is a very sad time for all of us who will not sign the covenant – we covet your prayers. Please bear with us if you are not getting the information you want - many of us are mourning the loss of our God called ministry. No one signed an oath of secrecy at the meeting (as someone previously mentioned), nor is anyone trying to withhold information - we are trying to come to grips with our loss and understand what God wants us to do.

Let me tell you all what I know up to this point. As I understand it, David Coombs has stated unequivocally that if lay leaders cannot support the pastor, they cannot serve in the church. He also said he cannot separate the office of the pastor and the pastor himself. He has been asked for biblical references to support this and I don’t believe as of yet any have been supplied.

They lay ministry application (which includes the covenant) was a document worked on by the church staff over a period of about 6 weeks. I understand that there were about 40 people, which included various sub-committees, who were responsible for the content and language. I don't know who these people are, but the document was finalized and released for distribution on Wednesday 7/25.

Additionally, he stated that there are 1600 hundred lay people they are trying to get an updated ministry application completed on; they are concentrating on anyone who interacts with children first. The children’s workers have had their meetings and been given a covenant but are not required to sign it. I don't know about the adults, students or pre-school workers. I understand that David also stated they have not yet considered giving it to the choir and orchestra because - in his words - "they don't directly interact with people".

Please pray for all of those still at BBC who are standing on God's Word and continue to feel God's call to stay - it is an especially difficult time and there are not many like-minded people left.

cap44 said...

I'm pretty sure that Bellevue has used a coaches covenant for quite some time. We used a variation of it at the church where I serve.
Our coaches were asked to read, sign and return it. This was so we would have some way to hold them accountable and that they would know expectations.
We haven't done and probably wouldn't do a credit check - though a SS# is required to do a decent background check.

FlyAway said...

Many BBC members are finding a wonderful place to worship at Faith Baptist Church. It was announced that the Church may be going to 3 worship services as people continue to pour into Faith.

Someone mentioned to me today, Faith had a VIP dinner for the visitors who filled out a visitors card. She said there must have been over 200 visitors at the dinner.

Can you believe the Preacher answered any and all questions from the group of visitors.

Our family attended the second service last Sunday and it looked like 25 people joined.

We will be back as that preacher has the best spirit and is a great preacher. Who known we are thinking about joining and we see so many of our BBC friends at Faith.

amazed said...

Mom4:

Don't forget my post about getting your name removed from the rolls. That way you don't have to make a phone call and risk getting DC on the line. (GASP)

gopher said...

...and maybe if there had been a background check on Steve...

sickofthelies said...

At this point, I find it odd that they did not ask for income tax returns...

amazed said...

Psalm46:

Even though you are hurting, the key word is to "move on". There are many opportunities just waiting to be filled at churches where paranoia doesn't reign supreme.

MOM4 said...

amazed,
I missed your post about having your names removed from the roll. We had our names removed from BFC a long time ago and not a soul bothered to call and find out why. If I call the church to have my membership removed, I would LOVE to have the opportunity to speak with David Coombs. From all I can see, he is running things with an iron fist, clenched teeth and very little scriptural knowledge. I remember at his faux ordination, Sonny Tucker spoke about him (DC) memorizing scripture. All I can say is that it must be a head knowledge because no true Christian can respond to the call of our Lord into the ministry with such coldness in his heart. People have said that he "thinks" he is helping and that is why he took the job. Wouldn't BBC be better served by someone with a heart in the ministry and God's call on his life? I just don't get it??

MOM4 said...

sickofthelies said...
At this point, I find it odd that they did not ask for income tax returns...

12:55 PM, August 07, 2007

SOTL,
If you sign that release, they can get them.

gopher said...

cap44 said...
"We haven't done and PROBABLY wouldn't do a credit check - though a SS# is required to do a decent background check."

Once a someone has your SS# all bets are off as they share the information they have about you and it is all passed around.

Now someone like Blue Line will have a christian database to share around.

Trust and Obey ...

here

So you can either keep your head in the sand or wake up and smell the roses.

concernedSBCer said...

Does anyone find it ironic that the SBC can't seem to "keep track" of pastors with a less than stellar history while churches demand SS# and credit checks?

I mean, isn't it too personal to list those pastors accused of child abuse but yet it's okay to know someone's tithe percentage and financial history?

Hum????

Junkster said...

concernedSBCer said...
Does anyone find it ironic that the SBC can't seem to "keep track" of pastors with a less than stellar history while churches demand SS# and credit checks?

Hmmmm ... the national denomination can't keep a record of abusive ministers, but your friendly neighborhood local church can (with your signature on the release) get your purchase history at Kroger. Will you be disfellowshipped if they discover you've been eating too many Cheetos? :)

MOM4 said...

junkster,
We are already disenfranchised for wanting to follow scripture, why not go ahead and disfellowship us for our Cheerio habits:)

concernedSBCer said...

What do you think would happen if they discovered someone bought alcohol at Kroger? That's even more serious than Cheetos........

With our handy Kroger card, SS# and release, they could even keep tabs on that........

MOM4 said...

Concerned,
DC buys alcohol - so what's wrong with that? He's our Admin Pastor and he doesn't seem to mind purchasing it, how can he hold anyone else accountable for it?

New BBC Open Forum said...

I guess I'll have to start paying for my adult beverages with cash and not using my Kroger card. Oh, wait. I didn't sign the release! Whew!

bothered said...

My wife and I started visiting other churches at the first of the year. We visited 3 baptist churches in the area. We were both very upset about the things going on at Bellevue and some things leaders were doing. I have kept pretty quiet about things because of my position and I didn't want to try and influence people to leave when I believe people must go where God leads them and their family. I do not judge anyone that is still there. All I ask is that those that are there not judge me. I do not have a problem asking me as a coach or leader to sign a covenant about following scripture. I do have a problem demanding that I be loyal to a pastor. I am only loyal to Christ. If a pastor is being all God has called him to be and doing what God called him to do, then he will not need to ask me to sign a loyalty oath. And he will not need to tell me what to do and when to do it. This is not how you run a church, by force.Once we started visiting Faith Baptist, we felt welcome and at home at a church once again. Our kids started attending and loved the youth. They also loved the pastor. After much prayer about what to do, our family joined Faith Baptist Sunday. I have enjoyed seeing an dknowing that Mrs Rodgers feels at home enough to be attending Faith pretty regularly. I still have family and friends at Bellevue that I love and care about. I am saddened by what has happened at Bellevue, but me and my family will be at our new church and pray that Bellevue and all churches in the area will be strong because we need all of them to be. I am excited about what God is going to do. I pray for those still at Bellevue that are serving because God told them to. It appears the pastor is trying to tell people now whether or not they are fit to serve. This is sad, but I believe God will deal with that. I know that because of my position, I will take some heat, but I am used to it and I have stayed silent long enough. My name is Chris Thomas for those that want to know. I have nothing to hide. I am glad to now be at a church where the pastor and leaders also have nothing to hide. If you and your family are searching for a spirit filled church, then I hope to see you at Faith. Just remember, GOD IS IN CONTROL. He is not shocked by any of this. We just need to all pray that HE will get the glory and not man.

concernedSBCer said...

But seriously.....a background check is totally understandable and acceptable, but the rest....something stinks in Omaha.

AND....as a victim of identity theft, I can tell you that you do not want that information out there. It's too dangerous.

imaresistor said...

Maybe Gaines should sign something to the effect that he won't run off any more of the sheep. But...that wouldn't be biblical. Just reversing the situation.
Shame on me. And no more stradling fences perhaps?

gmommy said...

bothered and Chris,
Thank you for "coming out".
I wish more men would have the courage to take a stand.

You and I share a sister in Christ:)

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
I guess I'll have to start paying for my adult beverages with cash and not using my Kroger card.

Is Yoo-hoo an adult beverage? 'Cuz I can't afford that unless I use my Kroger card. Just another reason to shop at Schnucks.

P.S. Yoo-hoo and Spam go together especially well. Just ask Dr. Bill Loney.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Part 2 of the Ray Saba/No-Mystery-Who-This-Is-Staff-Member is now up. "SM" stands for "staff member," not "Steve Marcum." Is there any doubt "SM" is "DC"?

"TB" = Terry Brimhall. I guess TB did show where his loyalty resides when he recently resigned as a deacon officer, from the deacon body completely, and from his SS class.

Karen said...

Welcome out in the open, Chris! And I got your email :)

As far as finding out who buys what where and what conduct the "loyalty oath" finds offensive, what about the wine that was purchased at David Coombs's table months back? Oh wait, did he sign a "loyalty oath" before or after this confirmed incident? Can't help but question BBC leadership with the following old favorite:

"What's good for the goose, is good for the gander"!

BBC leadership spin on the above:

"What's good for the gander are only "itty bitty guidelines" for the goose and if you don't think so, ask the goose's goons. They'll set you straight or send you packing."

gopher said...

The problem with "coming out" is that you are then "put out" and the inner circle is further enabled to take control as they disperse with the assets.....

Karen said...

Am I on drugs or am I reading Ray Saba's Part I & II correctly? Did this staff member tell Ray Saba that Steve and Donna are going out to dinner on Wednesday nights with members of BBC who "have issues"? I thought Wednesday nights were for the Gaines family to spend together! And on who's dime are these dinners being paid? Are they meeting at BBC over Fellowship Dinner?

BBC leadership still stepping in it - they can't help themselves or they belive their own flat out lies!

Lin said...

I would think that the EEOC may have something to say about this - church or not? These people are NOT ordained ministers, therefore the employment laws may apply to them? Anyone know?

12:02 PM, August 07, 2007

Nope. Churches are exempt from labor laws which is why you see so much unethical behavior in large churches by staff. They know they can get by with it. Churches do not pay into unemployment nor do they usually pay into the state disability fund. (The same is not true for non profit ministries. Churches have a special category)

Now, none of this means someone cannot file a suit. But, keep in mind we are talking about 'volunteers' except for staff that would be required to sign.

There is no reason for the church to have your Social Security number. They can send you a verifiable account of your giving for the IRS without your SS number. There is NO reason for a church to do credit checks on volunteers or even staff members.

It is stunning that we are talking about a church we cannot trust with our personal information, isn't it?

And SOTL is right...it has already been proven and verified that your confidential information and file is not kept confidential.

I think there is an even more sinister reason for all of this. Once people sign this...they are more likely to communicate/teach what the leaders tell them to. After seeing the prayer cards for the kids, it is obvious this is nothing short of an attempt at indoctrination.

It is all Steve all the time. He is the 'anointed' one. He is the leader. All must follow him and agree with him or they are not loyal.

fogmachine said...

The search committee said they DID NOT do a credit check on Steve before they hired him.

gmommy said...

gopher,
Not asking that other people "come out"....I'm not..that's what the Other blog people chant.

I was just affirming Chris.

fogmachine said...

I guess things may have changed an itty bitty since Steve's arrival.

aslansown said...

In Ray Saba's letter he made the following statement "They had issues how the business meeting was ended and we explained it
and they were happy. They understood it and TB said in the meeting that he is going to support the pastor
"

I was in the meeting with TB (there may have been more meetings than one in which I attended)and I can attest to the fact that niether I nor TB nor any others in our group were happy with the explanation that was given. I have spoken to this matter before but I will reiterate now.

We were not satisfied with DC's explination and as far as I know never has any of our group of 10 men been satisfied.

DC told us at the last meeting that "Yes, they stopped the meeting short" and that they did so to protect those who had differences with the administration from those that were in full support with DC and company.

When asked by myself what protection was needed DC responded that they were concerned that they would become too contentious and besmirch the reputation of Bellevue and the cause of Christ.

I then asked that if there was so much a problem with that side of the issues, was it not logical to conclude that there was merit to our argument (exchange of ideas)that there was wrong thinking on thier side? DC responded that that was not the issue but that there were approximately 1200-1300 Baptist churches going through the same problems as we were and that it would not "look good" to the world to see Bellevue in such a state.
I responded to this that it was too late and that given the civil manner in which our supporters were conducting themselves that thier fears were unfounded and only an excuse to prevent a full airing of greivances. DC repeated his previous reason.

I asked DC if it would not be best to have let the people of Bellevue to speak from thier hearts and let The Spirit be the judge and demonstrate the rightness or wrongness of our positions and responses. Dc only said "no".

At this meeting noone expressed a willingness to unconditionally support The Pastor.

It is quite possible that many of our differences could have been cleared up and so many things put into the graveyard of forgiveness, if these men last March had the backbone of thier convictions to stand before the people, answer the questions honestly and without reservation and let the outcome be the outcome.

Instead they attempted to engineer the outcome they wanted ( I speak from thier own admission) and had no trust in the God they say they serve to direct the hearts of His people.

This is the very definition of the pride our God hates.

MOM4 said...

fogmachine..
You say they did NOT do a credit check on Steve before they hired him?? I am wondering if they are planning on doing one now that it is mandatory for the rest of the church who give "freely" of their time and talents (not hirelings).
I personally know of a man who gave the search committee everything they needed to do a full background on Steve, (names, numbers, places, incidents, etc) and they gave him the brush off. Sounds to me like they didn't "hit a lick" as my pappy used to say.

fogmachine said...

mom4,
I can assure you they will not be doing a credit check on Steve.

Aslansown,
David Coombs and the rest of the gang from early on have a tactic to meet with everyone individually. This way, they can say whatever they want to because nobody can dispute what is being said.
I heard David Coombs misrepresent two months ago in a meeting not only TB but TK's and his wife's view of what was going on. It's interesting that all of these folks are leaving Bellevue in spite of DC's spin.
It's no wonder they don't want anything recorded these days. Thank the Lord for the invention of the recorder. Sunday nights performance is one for the record. I can't believe Bellevue is leaving it up on their website for the world to hear.

MOM4 said...

fogmachine said...
mom4,
I can assure you they will not be doing a credit check on Steve.

Why does that NOT surprise me! He "commanded" an amen from the crowd after his "coward" statement. Yelled his sermon and people grovel at his feet, allowing him to continue in his sin. (reminds me of "Give us Barabas") They may not realize it, but they are just as accountable as he is for letting him go unchecked in what used to be a Holy place, spending sacred money on unholy desires. There will come a reckoning I am sure. I am glad I will not be there to see it and I grieve the loss of a once Christ honoring church. This is a dark time for the faithful.

sickofthelies said...

I am not going to criticize BBC for doing a background check on those people working with children, as it is probably even required by their insurance carrier BUT, I've said it before and I"ll say it again, a background check is virtually useless.

Many many many perverts are out there with no criminal record.

And what is the credit check for? Seriously? Can anyone give me ONE reason for a credit check on volunteers????

Do they think that perverts don't pay their bills? Are they so naive as to think that perverts wear dirty, stinky clothes and have long unshaven beards? Do they think that perverts belong to a certain income level, race, age, or occupation? Do they think that they have figured out how to " nab" the pervert?

Let me state this again, MY perp was a mechanical engineer, graduate of Texas A&M university, no criminal record, and let me assure you, every bill was paid on time, and every "i" was dotted and every "t" was crossed.

The credit check is nefarious. There is absolutely NO REASON for it whatsoever. If BBC uses the word " CONFIDENTIAL" to you, then you should laugh in their face.

I know first hand just how " "confidential" the most personal information is to those in power at BBC.

They have no respect for confidential information. It's only confidential as long as they don't need it for something.

Face it, guys, these guys have one interest and one interest ONLY, and that is to keep the money coming in so that they can keep their jobs. They will go to any lengths to maintain their lifestyle, and as long as there are people who are gullible enough to think that they are signing an oath " for the Lord's work" then these guys are going to be laughing all the way to the bank.

ezekiel said...

Rev 13. Don't be lead into captivity.

When one reads Rev...It is Exodus all over. Pharaoh is a type of anti-christ and held Israel..God's people in bondage.

It was good for them for a while, then turned bad..real bad.

Jesus is again calling his people out...and has in fact delivered them..on the cross. Many do not know that yet...but He is calling. The plagues in Rev are similar to the plagues He performed on Egypt, pharaoh...even down to the frogs..Pharaoh did not turn..and God hardened his heart...

What you have today is a clear case of enslavement...and it will get worse.

Jesus died to set you free. I can't imagine why anyone would line up to go back to Egypt. But it appears many are.

amazed said...

Sheeps:...Always keep one thing in mind, if SG fell off the face of the earth tomorrow, you would still have to contend with the followers he left behind.

Nice thought.

concernedSBCer said...

Aslansown said: "When asked by myself what protection was needed DC responded that they were concerned that they would become too contentious and besmirch the reputation of Bellevue and the cause of Christ."

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I find this laughable. From the "itty-bitty" fence episode to the the PW fiasco (which, I understand, was whispered about extensively at the SBC Convention)BBC's reputation has been bismirched....by SG himself!

Following scripture and the law does not bismirch a reputation; sin does.

The blindness is unbelieveable to me.

concernedSBCer said...

Sheeps and Amazed: I was talking about the very thing of your 4:58 post with a friend yesterday. I made the comment that BBC, at this point, would need to be swept clean because 99% of the people that remain have been deceived and have not stood for Christ or His Word. My friend, a long-time BBC member, had to agree. So sad.

Piglet said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Piglet said...

fogmachine said

It's no wonder they don't want anything recorded these days. Thank the Lord for the invention of the recorder. Sunday nights performance is one for the record. I can't believe Bellevue is leaving it up on their website for the world to hear.

Piglet says:

Oh, there are more recordings than what are on savingbellevue to date. Folks had their number early on and the word was to tape any and all meetings because of the lies being told.

I hear they have put their foot in it again just recently - and were dismayed to find that the meeting in question was taped! Ha!

More to come...

Piglet said...

SOTL said

I am not going to criticize BBC for doing a background check on those people working with children, as it is probably even required by their insurance carrier BUT, I've said it before and I"ll say it again, a background check is virtually useless.

Piglet says:

Well, considering that Steve KNEW we had a pedophile on staff and did NOTHING, what does knowing have to do with it anyway?

Of course, I'm all for the background checks but the problem is not the lack of information. It is the lack of common sense and discernment....

Lynn said...

Heres my take on the background and credit checks.


Background checks, BBC should definitely do background checks on all volunteers and paid staff.

As far as the credit checks, unless the volunteers are working around the money or is a paid staff member, they should NOT do credit checks.

Piglet said...

concernedSBCer said...
Sheeps and Amazed: I was talking about the very thing of your 4:58 post with a friend yesterday. I made the comment that BBC, at this point, would need to be swept clean because 99% of the people that remain have been deceived and have not stood for Christ or His Word. My friend, a long-time BBC member, had to agree. So sad.

5:08 PM, August 07, 2007

Piglet says:

This is SO true! If Steve left tomorrow, I don't feel as though I could enjoy "fellowship" with a group of "believers" who tolerated him as their pastor.

Not to mention the way we were treated when we tried to inform those we thought were our friends!

imaresistor said...

This sermon, and/or series of sermons Ingrid has posted on Slice of Laodicea should help those of you along about now. It is, of course, from Jeff Noblit:

The Milky Way

This truly is the root of the problem at Bellevue today. Or one of them. :(

amazed said...

The thing that I cannot understand is how the members that knew and loved Dr. Rogers, could completely lose their sense of right and wrong as soon as SG arrives on the scene. Its almost like he came with some magic potion and sprinkled it on a select few.

I am sure glad it missed me.

amazed said...

I guess what is even more heart breaking, is to see all of the years of work, sacrifice, dedication and giving, just literally go up in smoke.

You have to ask yourself, why bother to build something great if one man can tear it down so quickly?

Any thoughts?

amazed said...

Am I talking with myself?

gopher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gmommy said...

gopher,
where did your post go???

amazed,
not talking to yourself....many are reading....

have you noticed how many things are changed or addressed in some way by BBC once we post about it?????

Since SG has so much time on his hands.....I would think he keeps track himself.

allofgrace said...

The thing that I cannot understand is how the members that knew and loved Dr. Rogers, could completely lose their sense of right and wrong as soon as SG arrives on the scene. Its almost like he came with some magic potion and sprinkled it on a select few.

I've said this before and I'll say it again...what happened was already waiting in the wings...SG's appearance merely brought it out of the woodwork. It's been said that the strength or weakness of a church will be revealed when it's pastor retires/dies/leaves. I think that says it all.

imaresistor said...

amazed said, "...if one man can tear it down so quickly?"

Have you ever wondered if maybe it was more structured than just simply one man coming in and tearing it down? Perhaps the Pulpit Committee? Perhaps the staff at the time? Perhaps the new staff coming on board later? Perhaps well defined by Warrenism? I certainly give credit where credit is due...but this appears to me to have been well orchestrated perhaps? I would also go so far as to say that these guys have the patient of Job. They have plotted and manipulated and then sat back and seen their plans come to fruition. Matter of fact you can follow instructions to the letter by reading the Purpose Driven Church by Rick Warren, the Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, and Transitioning by Dan Southerland, not to mention Willow Creek Association. Then, of course, there is the Bible that gives you this scenerio almost verbatim. Is there not a Long Range Planning Committee set in place at BBC that has helped move this along? Certainly I would think Steve Gaines is along the top players, but he has company. ???

gmommy said...

Amazed,
for me personally, I won't go to a mega church again.....maybe not even a SBC church again.
Once you start researching the changes that the power brokers have made at the top....it becomes clear how a SG could come in and do what he did in such a short time.
And as DC and others here have pointed out...this isn't just happening at BBC.

If the SBC can't even do what they should to protect the innocent in the churches (see Christa Brown's blog) and BS could bring the intimidation tactics to GBC so soon after what they suffered thru...something is terribly wrong to the core. There is an agenda.

That's not to say that many Baptist ministers such as Bro Danny and many who post on our blog don't have a pure heart.

New BBC Open Forum said...

fogmachine,

TK = Tim Ketler?

imaresistor said...

gmommy said, "have you noticed how many things are changed or addressed in some way by BBC once we post about it?????"

Comment: Of course, this blog has been their biggest obstacle. They probably had not planned on having to deal with this blog. It has not made things easy for them. Don't think for an instant that they miss reading it. People from all over the country and more read this blog. BBC is very typical of other churches going down the tube. It is biblical. These people are delusional just like the Bible says.

Lynn said...

It is sad that I read this blog every day and sometimes I have to go to the Home Depot and stock up on duct tape. I was really steaming when I saw some of the things these coaches were told. Its utter bull.


Whats really sad though is that I really haven't had much will to get up Sunday mornings and go to church. This mess has made me very gunshy of pastors.

gopher said...

If we operate under the SG ophilosophy, that things done in the past, are covered under the blood...

Why then, is there even a need for background checks. ????

Even without that little gem of a statement from Steve, what makes anyone think that someone who is in the ministry for the wrong reasons, would be honest when filling out these forms.

A form does nothing to protect the children. They need to be watched over and with them now closing classrooms and doubling up with as many as 28 children in a room with only 2 or 3 teachers , looking out and watching over them becomes harder and harder.

Besides, when the Pastor himself learned of the presence of a child molester on staff, he did nothing.

If you want protection through forms, require the Senior Pastor & Administer sign a form which binds them to publicly disclose any "confidentiality" with staff that might jeopardize safety of church members' children. The form would further make him legally liable for any damage incurred.

imaresistor said...

Note...I meant patience of Job. Not patient. Sorry...

Churchmouse said...

I worked with Bellevue children for 10-15 years in graded choir. We had to fill out a background information form with references. We had our pictures taken and placed in our file. I have no problem with that. It is necessary to protect the children. However, no confidential financial information was collected and NO committments of loyalty to Dr. Rogers were required.

This background check did not protect BBC from child preditors. We had a child preditor in the ministry staff during that time. If a person has never been convicted, he/she won't be sifted out by these checks.

There has been some discussion suggesting that volunteers might be paid in the future. This would establish an entirely different relatiionship between the church and lay ministry, even if the pay was minimal. The church would then have access to social security numbers, etc.

There have been problems in the recent past with church staff members being careless with confidential files. Some of you know about that.

Who would divulge such information to men who have not truthful about church financial matters from the beginning, and who have been less than discreet with church files?

There are several problems with the signing of these papers. There are privacy risks, financial risks, and compromises with the Word of God.

gmommy said...

gopher,
That would make the difference,wouldn't it!

amazed said...

Imaresistor:

Yes this overthrow may have been waiting in the wings a long time, but SG is not the type to take advice or suggestions. He is a dictator in the true sense and you can rest assured, he is calling the shots. All the others are merely along for the ride.

oc said...

Amazed said:
The thing that I cannot understand is how the members that knew and loved Dr. Rogers, could completely lose their sense of right and wrong as soon as SG arrives on the scene. Its almost like he came with some magic potion and sprinkled it on a select few.

AOG said:
I've said this before and I'll say it again...what happened was already waiting in the wings...SG's appearance merely brought it out of the woodwork. It's been said that the strength or weakness of a church will be revealed when it's pastor retires/dies/leaves. I think that says it all.

oc says:
Yeah, but I see it more as a a leg missing from a chair. Without that leg, it will tilt and be unstable, and cannot be trusted. AR left, and the replacement leg was faulty, way short of the proper requirements. Now the fact that the chair has not been satisfactorily repaired has become obvious, and many have slidden off, and others are desperately hanging on. The repair required a 24 inch leg. The attempted fix was a 2 inch stub.

Just sayin'.
oc.

Churchmouse said...

Well, at least some of the soccer practice for tonight was cancelled at BBC. It seems that the church is in need of coaches.

oc said...

Junkster said,
"Just sayin'" (c) MMVII, OC Productions


oc says:

U B funny, Brutha.

Just sayin'.
oc.

fogmachine said...

To any Soccer Coach who doesn't follow and swallow (CT's words) you will be assessed a yellow card (Soccer lingo) for not following the new rules of Bellevue.

yellow card - a playing card-sized card that a referee holds up to warn a player of dangerous or unsportsmanlike behavior.

oc said...

Fogmachine,
Maybe a red card?

fogmachine said...

OC,

I stand corrected. Of course, anyone not signing is kicked out of the GAME.

ezekiel said...

Amazed said,

"I guess what is even more heart breaking, is to see all of the years of work, sacrifice, dedication and giving, just literally go up in smoke.

You have to ask yourself, why bother to build something great if one man can tear it down so quickly?

Any thoughts?"

6:16 PM, August 07, 2007

At the risk of offending many...it is a classic case of "wood and stone"....

1 Cor 3 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.

11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Your question has been repeated here many times. Many are extremely hurt by the loss of what they built...wood and stone....

SG, or anyone else cannot burn up...or take away the building one does when working on God's kingdom....

Maybe part of the message He is giving us is that we have been spending too much time and effort in building the wrong things...

Lynn said...

fogmachine said...

To any Soccer Coach who doesn't follow and swallow (CT's words) you will be assessed a yellow card (Soccer lingo) for not following the new rules of Bellevue.

yellow card - a playing card-sized card that a referee holds up to warn a player of dangerous or unsportsmanlike behavior.

7:40 PM, August 07, 2007

You mean red card right? Red Card is an ejection from the game.

(Yes, as much as I hate Soccer, I know a little about it).

oc said...

Fog,
I'm tellin' you. This stuff is too bizarre. It's like: You submit to me, and give me your allegiance. I, in turn, will not return the favor. You will like it, or you will suffer the consequences. You will abide by possibly humiliating you by policies and procedures that I will not submit nor lower myself to. You will like it, or you will leave. I will know your personal dealings, including your finances. But you shall not know mine. I am above you. Don't forget it. And I'll make sure you don't.

Am I really gettin' this? You couldn't even write a fiction book less believable than this. Yet here it is.

Just bewildered.
oc.

Lynn said...

OC....

Whats going on at Bellevue is more like a cult than an actual church. Or at least thats what it seems to be given how everyone has to pledge allegiance to a leader and not to God.

amazed said...

ezekiel: I wasn't referring to the buildings on Appling Road. I was referring to the body of believers that was built up over many years through the efforts of preachers like R.G. Lee an Adrian Rogers. Those two had to build on the one and only foundation described in vs 11. To say otherwise is to say that it was all a farce.

imaresistor said...

The leadership, including Gaines, is forgetting that they are dealing with people who can get along without BBC. Many people have totally moved and more are in the process of doing so. It is the leadership that doesn't realize that there "is life after Bellevue".

gmommy said...

Ima,
Good point.
But they don't want any of the truth seekers to muddy up the waters for them.

Get ready for you know what....too much exposure going on here on this hate filled blog......

gmommy said...

I have a random tid bit I am going to share.

I had the sweet priviledge of spending time today with some very well parented children .....
it just blessed my heart and blessed my day.

With the example the church leaders are showing the young people and with my own children gone,
it just warmed my heart to be around thoughtful,kind,caring kids that respected their parents and others.

here's the hint....their mom is well known for going "hunting" with hair spray and a broom:)

ezekiel said...

amazed,

That one is ok..doing fine..

Matt 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus is building it...and it is not smoking...and no one is tearing it down. :)

ezekiel said...

It might help if we look at it this way.

God led His people to Egypt because of a famine. Not unlike the past at BBC, God led His people to BBC because of a famine in their lives...famine of the WORD.

God's people prospered there...multiplied. Then Pharaoh...took notice...decided they were prospering too much and enslaved them....demanded work, demanded taxes, demanded tithes....Had them sign a loyalty oath at the end of a whip....

But in this case, Jesus had already delivered them and wanted to feed them manna (the WORD)...but even then..they grumbled, were disobedient, and many wanted to return to Egypt and accept the bondage for better food.

It really is as simple as who's food does one want to eat...and who does one want to serve?

concernedSBCer said...

Anyone who knows me knows I love the study of end times prophesy. (Don't want to get into a debate, just sayin') These tactics by SG scream of the false teachers and anti-christs of the last days. (Note: I did not say THE Anti-christ)

Take note. Pray. Keep warning everyone of the "snakes"

gmommy said...

Concernedsbcer,
I 'd love to talk to you about your study of the end times soon.

I hear your getting some good bowling teams together for our next...oops......sorry...

Was it Mary that came up with the snake warning???
That sure works in this situation,doesn't it!

We will continue to warn people about SNAKES!!!

gmommy said...

Commercial on again...BBC loves me just the way I am?
How would I know that?

Lynn said...

gmommy said...

Commercial on again...BBC loves me just the way I am?
How would I know that?

10:26 PM, August 07, 2007

I have to wrap duct tape around my head every time I see that commercial. BTW, shouldn't Bellevue change their slogan from A Family of Friends to A Country Club of Rich Power Brokers?

concernedSBCer said...

Lyn said: "A Country Club of Rich Power Brokers?"

LOL......good point....but oh so...
distressing........

gopher said...

amazed said...
"And this overthrow may have been waiting in the wings a long time, but SG is not the type to take advice or suggestions. He is a dictator in the true sense and you can rest assured, he is calling the shots. All the others are merely along for the ride."

I think that you might have missed the real point as nothing or nobody gets to the pastor by himself. All decisions from the pastor are filtered by DC as he is directly involved in everything. The fact is that the inner circle cannot trust Steve alone (he is more like a puppet-dictator).

DC has been groomed in BBC for 35 years , so it is run by the millionaire club that uses SG to fit their purposes.

Just like Bob S. is still a member of BBC and still in power. After all, he was a messenger to the SBC in San Antonio. To represent BBC when he wasn't even an active participant was outright strange.

sickofthelies said...

It's as though the church exists for the purpose and benefit of the BBC millionaire's club, and the members who stay are only feeding the egos of these men. They have been led to believe that they are fighting some battle for Jesus, and fighting against persecution by the troublemakers. Can they not see that the " troublemakers" have left the building?

Don't they know many many FORMER friends that have left BBC?

I think that SG has a vested interest in keeping that fight brewing becuase it " unites" his little stepford sheep ( no offense NASS) and takes the focus away from his sinful life, and places it on the troublmakers, even if they are imagined.

You see politicians ( republicans and democrats) doing this all the time.

Ain't nuthin new under the sun.

gmommy said...

gopher,
you are definitely on to something with BS.
I tried to believe that DC was somewhat innocent in the beginning.....
not that I looked up to him but thought the good ol boys brought him in to cover for their poor decisions about SG and the deal from hades made.....

remember the troll that sang and sang about how DC was coming in to restore "integrity"(I am desensitized to that word when used with this leadership) to BBC and reel in SG?????????

Now he seems to know exactly what's going on and controling much of it but certainly not restoring any integrity.

Couldn't they have found a less expensive puppet??????

gmommy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
johnthebaptist said...

I am listening to last Sunday's message on LWF. Dr. Rogers' is preaching on running the race.
One statement that has stood out is and I quote" I don't care how much money you give, if you are not trying to bring others to Jesus Christ, you are sinning against God."
Now, do you think Steve would preach that? No!
What is Steve concerned with? How much money are you giving. Steve is concerned with Steve. Jesus is just an after thought so everything will seem spiritual.
You wonder why the church is emptying and the money is dwendling?
The "leadership" has lost their first love.

sickofthelies said...

johnthebaptist,

It's all about having the money to maintain their lifestyles....

Oh, yeah, and if they want to talk about Jesus, they'll throw his name in there, too, just to keep em coming back with their dough.

gopher said...

sickofthelies said...
"Don't they know many many FORMER friends that have left BBC?"

Did anyone see the interview of the former TYCO CEO on ABC Primetime.

here

On page 3 it says:
"In the meantime, he spends much of his time in prison focused on his appeal. He can receive visitors on the weekends, but he says he has few friends left.

"In the final analysis, most of the people were close to you because of your power and your wealth?" Safer asks.

"That's correct. And they wanted to share in that. That was probably 90 percent of the people in my life," Kozlowski says.

And it is not just his friends who have left him – he and his wife Karen are divorcing.

Asked if the marriage was all about money, Kozlowski says, "Morley, we're in the middle of a divorce and agreement. I'm not going to say anything about that, you know, at this time." "

Lynn said...

Is it just me...or does Gaines look like he hasn't slept in weeks in the new ad? He has some dark circles around his eyes.

sickofthelies said...

lynn says:

Is it just me...or does Gaines look like he hasn't slept in weeks in the new ad? He has some dark circles around his eyes.

11:12 PM, August 07, 2007

sotl says:

That's what paranoia will do to you.

sickofthelies said...

Anyone remember that OLD OLD movie, with Humphrey Bogart? It was on a ship, and he became EXTREMELY paranoid. Can't remember the name of the movie.

That's who SG is reminding me of lately.

johnthebaptist said...

amazed said...
I guess what is even more heart breaking, is to see all of the years of work, sacrifice, dedication and giving, just literally go up in smoke.

You have to ask yourself, why bother to build something great if one man can tear it down so quickly?

Any thoughts?



Reply: If man built it, it should be torn down.

God raised Bellevue up for His glory and for His purpose. He has used some of the most humble, biblically accurate and godly men to pastor BBC in years past.

All the years of work, sacrifice, dedication and giving have not been wasted.

Do you know how many thousands of people have been saved and ministered to through BBC through out the years? Dr. Rogers used to say as well as others...what is done on earth will soon pass , only what's done for Christ will last.

Gods work is never wasted. Bellevue doesn't not have to continue to exsist for God to accomplish His task.

God doesn't need Bellevue. BELLEVUE NEEDS GOD! We must have utter dependence on Him and Him alone.

If God chooses to let Bellevue die or whatever He chooses to do with BBC, so what?

This world is NOT our home. We are just passing through. God will continue to call sinners to Himself. He will forgive, save and cleanse people until Jesus comes to get us or He calls us home.

Nothing has escaped God's attention and Jesus is still on the throne. Bellevue is a very small part in God's big picture of things.

While standing for truth, we must not forget to keep our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith!

sickofthelies said...

The Caine Mutiny

( what you bet that SG will be ordering up that movie to watch this weekend? LOL)

gmommy said...

JTB,
More and more I understand and find comfort in the fact that this earth isn't our home.

johnthebaptist said...

gmommy said...
JTB,
More and more I understand and find comfort in the fact that this earth isn't our home.


Reply: Amen. Soon and very soon, we are going to see the King.

Andrew said...

Just wanted to touch base...been lurking.

Oh and JTB, AMEN to your post about brick and mortar.

Good night brothers and sisters.

Andrew

all2jesus said...

Lin said...
What is the point of this convenant? Is it for discipline? If so, how can that be when Gaines would not even practice biblical discipline with PW? Or himself?


This is an excellent point. Since Gaines does not believe in church discipline, how will covenant breakers be dealt with?

concernedSBCer said...

JTB said: "God doesn't need Bellevue. BELLEVUE NEEDS GOD!"

There you go.....this is where the rubber meets the road. All need to remember this before pride clouds vision.

sickofthelies said...

johnthebaptist said:

Reply: Amen. Soon and very soon, we are going to see the King.


sotl says:

Dr. R. used to say, " It's getting gloriously dark"

Bring it on!! I'm ready!!!

Churchmouse said...

johnthebaptist said:

Reply: Amen. Soon and very soon, we are going to see the King.

Reply: Just two years ago we were relatively comfortable -- fat, dumb, and happy. Then Steve Gaines rolled in like a tsunami. I don't believe the attack on the church happened that fast -- but our awareness was sudden and devistating.

Back in the late 1980s, Bible prophecy was was in our ears like a drumbeat, as Israel approached her 40th year as an regathered nation. Hal Lindsey was the Tim LaHaye of the day. Dr. Rogers preached on Ezekiel 38 and Daniel's 40 weeks. We watched the eastern sky with anticipation.

Then in 1991, Operation Dessert Storm began. We read about Iraq in our Bible studies. Then came the Clinton years, and we became distracted by events in Washington. Soon after the Clinton years passed, we were back to watching the Middle East in a big way.

Although we have been distracted, the prophecies have continued to unfold. If it was dark when Dr. Rogers was here with us, it is darker now. The church in under assault from within. Our places of refuge have become scarce. We have learned to say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in HIM will I trust."

Churchmouse said...

ATTENTION THRILL SEEKERS

This would be a great time to read Frank Peretti's novel, THE OATH.
If you have already read it, read it again.

gopher said...

In light of the changes at BBC, I saw this bumper sticker:

CHANGE IS INEVITABLE

PROGRESS IS OPTIONAL

amazed said...

churchmouse: What is "The Oath" about?

tn_lizzie2000 said...

I love the way that scriptures are so simple, even a child can understand them. I often pray for SG to receive the chastening that only a Loving Father can give. Do y'all know anything about Steve's parents? I've never heard them mentioned...

just sayin'

Keys for Kids Daily Devotional for August 8, 2007

TITLE: Diluted or Pure
SCRIPTURE: 2 Corinthians 6:14-18
THE STORY FOR TODAY:

"Mom, what's wrong with these ice cubes?" asked Ava. "They're all brown!"

Mom glanced at the dark cubes and grinned. "I used iced tea to make those," she explained. "I made them for Grandpa. You know how he loves good, strong iced tea on hot summer days."

"Oh, I get it!" Ava nodded and smiled at her grandfather who was sitting at the kitchen table. She knew he disliked his tea watery and weak, the way it became when too many ice cubes melted in it. She popped several of the brown cubes into a tall glass and poured fresh iced tea over them. "Here you are, Grandpa. Pure tea, unspoiled by ordinary ice cubes."

"Thanks, honey," said Grandpa, taking the tea. "Just the way I like it," he added after enjoying a big swallow. "These ice cubes remind me of a Scripture passage that urges Christians to be pure and undiluted by the world."

Mom and Ava exchanged knowing glances. It seemed to Ava that Grandpa could find a spiritual lesson in almost everything. "The Bible tells us to come away from sinful things and be separated unto God," continued Grandpa. "He says righteousness and unrighteousness don't belong together."

"Why do those ice cubes remind you of that?" asked Ava.

"When you use regular ice cubes, they melt into the iced tea, and it becomes diluted-weak and tasteless," explained Grandpa. "When we allow worldliness-unrighteousness-to come into our lives, it makes our testimony weak and ineffective. Living like the world dilutes our witness for Jesus."

Mom nodded agreement. "There's so much pressure to dress, act, talk, and think like the world," she said. "If we're not careful, we forget that we belong to Jesus, and we begin to 'follow the crowd' and live a weak, diluted life-like those in the world."

Ava nodded. Grandpa and Mom are right, she thought. I'll have to remember the iced tea cubes when I'm tempted to go along with what the other kids are doing even though I know they're wrong.

MEMORY VERSE: "Come out from among them and be separate," says the Lord... 2 Corinthians 6:17a

tn_lizzie2000 said...

Oops.

Keys for Kids is the link.

gopher said...

amazed said...
"churchmouse: What is "The Oath" about?"

Reviews of the "Oath"

here

Churchmouse said...

Thanks gopher! We are sharing one computer at my house today.

In THE OATH people sign the oath for personal advantage, and when they do -- something black starts to grow and ooze from their hearts. Yes, these are unsaved people.

MOM4 said...

While reading the reviews for "The Oath" I ran across this tidbit on "The Fight".

I could not link it, you will have to do a copy and paste.

http://kshighway.blogspot.com/2006/02/are-christians-ever-to-fight.html

Junkster said...

gmommy said...
More and more I understand and find comfort in the fact that this earth isn't our home.

Isn't that a quote from Rick Warren? (heh heh heh)

gmommy said...

junkster,
you'll have to interpret the joke for me.....

Junkster said...

gmommy said...
junkster,
you'll have to interpret the joke for me.....


It wasn't really a joke so much as a mischevious remark. In "The Purpose Driven Life", Warren says something very similar to "the earth isn't our home". And, being the smart alec I am, it amused me to see someone I know isn't a fan of Warren say something so close to what he said. But, joking aside, I'm sure there is truth intermixed with error in Warren's writings, just as there would be with any human. (Including me--gasp!)

feelingblue said...

Just thought I would forward something a friend just sent to me. Food for thought.

'I am sitting here thinking about the tactics Bellevue is using and it is a direct model that the Catholic church used with Martin Luther. When Martin Luther called into question the sale of indulgences by the church, he was threatened. The church told him that if he did not recant his position he would be excommunicated. Did he recant? NO!!!! He knew it was wrong and stood firm. He told the assembly that he was "bound by God's Word, and COULD NOT recant". Because of his courage and strength the reformation began. I am sure he felt alone and avoided, but he knew what God would have him do. These men that refused to sign the documents that the church wanted them to, did so because they just COULD NOT. I also think about why SG does not want information about the happenings at Bellevue to be on the net. It reminds me about when the Bible was first printed. Having a Bible in your own language exposed the lies that the church had been deceiving the people with for years. I believe the blog has not always be used for the right purpose that it should be, but it has exposed things that you wouldn't know otherwise. The early reformers knew that matters of the church had to be exposed and they were willing to be persecuted for thier stand. These tactics are scary to me. I just thought I would share. Thanks for reading.'

feelingblue said...

My friend meant 'men and women'.

gmommy said...

junk,
thanks.
I thought what I said was from the Bible.....didn't get it from Rick.....
my dad used to say that to me when I was young and before RW was born.:)

What I always said to my kids is that God is the CREATOR of everything beautiful...
art, music,...(I named other things)

the world (satan) can only take what God has created and distort and pervert it... (I was probably giving examples of the "non music" my son wanted to listen to)

OK...random ...brain not following any straight lines today.


Junk,
you have a really good mind. You come up with some good stuff on this blog.

MOM4 said...

feeling blue,
Thanks for sharing your friend's thoughts with us.
I continually wonder why everybody just walked away without a fight. I know in the famed "information" meeting, my husband and I stood alone in the area where we were seated. I could not believe it! To us the sin is blatant and "in your face", but to some it is not worthy of making waves, let alone wakes. Why would the membership not make a stand and throw this apostate out on his ear? These men and Steve Gaines have no control over the membership, yet they act like they do only because they are allowed to carry on as usual without controlled opposition from the membership.
If I failed to discipline my small child when he balked at my instructions and he rose up and assaulted me when he became a teen, it is because I let him get away with it at a time when I could have made a difference in his behavior. (I know about the "free will" folks and my son wouldn't DARE-this is an example) Take for instance the sermon Sunday night, when he called us names such as "cowards" and then said "amen", then after all he got was dead silence, he loudly repeated his statement and yelled "AMEN" again and they responded with an "amen" at that point. Was it because they agreed with his name calling or was it because they were being controlled and intimidated by his bully tactics.
I have found in my lifetime that most bully's are really cowards at heart. They have a deep seated fear of being exposed for what they truly are and their house of cards will crumble and fall apart. I think Steve Gaines is the coward AND the bully and he is getting away with it...scott free.
Is it too late to rise up and oust him? And even if we did, we need to oust the remaining administration. We have pastors who can preach and teach us - Joe Jerningan, Doyal Long and maybe a few others that are left. Men of good report is what we need. Men who know scripture and follow it. It is not too late for us to save the church if that is the Lord's will, but everybody who has walked away will need to return for a Sunday morning call into a business meeting and vote him out immediately. Is that a possiblilty? Has the temperature finally risen to the degree that people are willing to do something about it?
What say ye all?

NoSpinZone said...

Maybe it's time for an open meeting in Bartlett again??

Maybe it's time to ask about the statement David Coombs made about updating our bylaws??

Maybe it's time to ask about the "no conflict of interest policy" BBC has??

Maybe it's time to ask why John Caldwell's son in law on staff??

Maybe it's time to ask why Phil W. son in law is on staff??

Maybe it's time to ask why Steve Gaines future son in law is on staff??

Talk about a conflict of interest!


Let's face it, we are going to have to go to court to creat change!

gmommy said...

mom4,
I agree with you on so many things.
I do believe the time has passed to save "BBC" .....there was a good chance right after the monkey business meeting..... alot of people were ready that had their heads in the sand before.

Forgive me on this opinion ...or enlighten me....
how can the men you mentioned really be of good report if they have no courage themselves to stand against what the leadership is doing??

I would have never thought SS would have behaved the way he did with some of the coaches....

I realize I am not in the know about some people but at this moment ,the only men I have heard about that have consistently stood their ground with the leadership have been PM, GH, and RS
( and some deacons that may not want me to put their initials out)

..are there more? That are still there?????
So many have left.
Help me understand if I am wrong. I couldn't trust any of the ministers left. JMO

aslansown said...

MOM4,
There will be NO business meeting to oust anyone without the cooperation of those that you wish to oust. The people will not stand with you en mass and without the tyranny of the numbers they will not cooperate to have a business meeting.

To have a meeting will require an exhaustive effort of educating the masses regarding the need for a meeting and guaranteeing thier support to stand up and call for the same. They will have to discover the need to care enough to stand. I think that most people require a crisis to be spurred to action and thus far they have not seen anything resembling a crisis.

One other thing. It is telling that there is now a crisis in people able and willing to perform leadership functions that require an enormous committment in time and resources such as teaching.

With the departure of so many of our people that gave of themselves to the spiritual education of the Body of Christ at Bellevue, very few are either willing or able to step up and fill the needed vacancies. When confronted with the need many simply say that since we have always had enough teachers, we will certainly have enough tomarrow.

Dr. Rogers used to say that "the two greatest enemies against the cause of Christ are Apathy and Ignorance." We now have both in abundance.

Karen said...

Regarding Steve and Donna's meetings with "the dissenters", I received this email today. Steve Gaines just doesn't get it. Is he thick, obtuse or just so self abosorbed that he can't put his brain around the fact that the problems with Bellevue all point back to him?

Here's the email - the identifying factors have been removed by me.


My ________________ is a deacon at BBC. The deacon told ___________ that SG and his wife invited he and his wife out to lunch. SG told the deacon that he would be very hurt if they left BBC. The deacon told SG there were problems at BBC. SG told the deacon that people just didn't like the music and he had talked with Jamie Parker
Ken Reich and Jon Tyner, but couldn't get them to understand. SG just doesn't see that people are leaving because of him and not the music. The deacon told SG they would follow the Lord's leading. They didn't have time to go into detail.

MOM4 said...

gmommy,
You are probably right. Some of the men still there have not been given permission by the Lord to leave. For example, if Joe Jernigan made a stand, it would have a huge impact, but the last I heard, he has not for a personal reason. I do not know what it is. It could be because his wife and Donna Gaines are close. It could be because the Lord has not given him permission to do so yet. I mentioned Doyal Long only because I know him and have respect for him as a godly man and was pleased at the way he handled the situations with the Gremillions and others. He will not be moved by something unscriptural. I do not know that he has NOT made a stand within the administration. He may be the next one to "resign". I know that so many of those men running things now need to be removed from their positions in order for healing to begin, but like I said before, even if they were all gone today, it would take a decade to recover the fellowship we once knew. We need a gospel revival, every night for a week, with Christ honoring music and the tears of repentance on the altar. Steve Gaines will NEVER bring that to Bellevue. It would interfere with his plans, he is not interested in restoration. He is apostate.

Lin said...

"Anyone remember that OLD OLD movie, with Humphrey Bogart? It was on a ship, and he became EXTREMELY paranoid. Can't remember the name of the movie."

Commander Queeg and the missing scoop of strawberries. It is a classic.

MOM4 said...

aslansown,
I was hoping with my last thread of hope that perhaps this latest incident with the oaths and covenants would be the spark that caused enough eyes to be opened to create some glimmer of hope for Bellevue.
I wonder just how many have actually signed the covenants? I also wonder who is next to "resign"? I am angry that there are so many leaders who walked away early on when they could have made a difference. If Dr Rogers ever taught us anything by example, it was to fight for the right thing - which is the main thing - the preaching and teaching of God's Word, to "come to Jesus"! It is worth fighting for. It turns my stomach when I hear another strong person has left, yet it also turns my stomach to sit thru Gaines' sermonettes with their misquoted, out of context scripture, his nervous laugh and his controlling demands. Perhaps the Lord is not going to heal Bellevue until we take it back, perhaps not at all. But like you said, apathy and ignorance are abundant and rampant at Bellevue.

fogmachine said...

MOM4,

I agree that very few leaders had the courage to stand up and cry out against the wrong they saw. Instead, it was much easier to walk away in silence as to not upset the applecart or spoil any relationships that may cause financial harm.

Mark 10:24

Will God honor ministers who see wrong and know of evil things inside the church but walk away silently so they won't be considered trouble? How will their ministry at their next church be effective? It's a question worth asking.

aslansown said...

Mom4,
My intention was not to deepen your dispair but to lay out the magnitude of the problem. I don't think that these things are insurmountable, but I am convinced that what we are talking about is an involved and drawn-out process.

At the heart of the issue is the that Bellevue needs to decide just what kind of church it needs to be and how it will be organized. The people of Bellevue need to do this and not the administration. This was an item of contention between DC and myself. He told us that the staff was attempting to determine what the proper model of a New Testament Church was with the implication that we would be informed of this decision and take it or leave it.

I begged him to let the people be involved in this process and he asked me if I had seen his web page. I replied that I had and that as best as I could tell from his writings was that we would have the opportunity to e-mail him with suggestions and that those same suggestions might be considered or answered.

The problem with this approach, I pointed out, was that it removed the element sincerity and appeared disingenuous becouse there was no personal contact as in a one-on-one conversation. Even a town-hall meeting would allow people personal contact and the opportunity to know that they had been heard and considered. It lacked the element of caring.

Bellevue needs to have a CLEAR vision for the future and its identity. The people need to know exactly where its leadership wants to take it and why. If the vision is right and clear and shared in a manner that is not condecending and demanding, the people (including myself) will follow.

MOM4 said...

Aslan,
I agree and you did not add to my already deepening dispair. I also agree about the leadership "leading", but unless there is full public repentance from Steve Gaines and the removal of his administrative staff from the top to the bottom, I will not follow him unless the Lord tells me to and to date, He has not. Instead, He has led us to seek out the last of the true churches remaining in this city. Churches where the gospel is preached in honesty and truth and the music edifies Christ, the fellowship is spontaneous and sweet and the pastor is a man of his word, who preaches the Word from a clean heart.
Steve Gaines has a lot to answer for.

aslansown said...

mom4,
I hear you and understand your need and cry.

sickofthelies said...

Even if SG and his band of money-grubbing goons were to leave tomorrow, you would still be left with people who were more than willing to follow the apostate pastor. How could we worship with them knowing that they had no problem with SG or the bullying tactics used by them? Or in my case, the SS teacher that defended SG to me in the PW crisis by saying to me about PW: " well, he only did it one time" ( the molestation of his son), which was NEITHER true or pertinent.

Short of a miracle, BBC is history to me.

Pssss: Steve, it has nothing to do with the music...given a choice of listening to the music or YOU, i would take the music, hands down.

concernedSBCer said...

Mom4 said: "We have pastors who can preach and teach us - Joe Jerningan, Doyal Long and maybe a few others that are left. Men of good report is what we need. Men who know scripture and follow it."

Mom, I have to wonder.......if they have abided what has happened, what SG has done, ARE they "men of good report?" Have they followed scripture when they have not stood for what was right?

Something to think about?

tn_lizzie2000 said...

Isn't anyone ready to start a new church? Could someone on this blog call a clandestine meeting and let's discuss what it is that we're looking for? If we can't find it, why don't we MAKE it?

I know of a couple of men who could preach, and I have a couple of old hymnals... What more do we need? Mr. Loney wants to be Deacon President, maybe we could "call" him to serve a new church instead of BBC?

You may notice that I'm big on ideas but a tad shaky with the details. Anybody have the gift of administration? :o)

More than just wonderin'

allofgrace said...

Even if SG left and all the administration...and even in 10 yrs. BBC would still not be the same church. That's just the nature of it...the church it was under AR's tenure is gone, never to return.

Don't be too harsh on those who left early on. If a congregation is unwilling as a whole to deal with those in charge, then as far as I can see that's all the permission anyone needs to leave. If the leader/s are not following scripture, and the congregation will not deal with it, then I believe we have an obligation to leave. How else does one receive permission?..an impression?...audible voice?...or by what His word teaches us? I believe most of those who saw what was going on fought the good fight...but a congregation has to speak with one voice...if it does not, then they are willing to abide the situation, and those who know better can and should leave and seek out a sound church. What happened at BBC is lamentable, but it does not spell the end, or even the slowing down of the advance of God's Kingdom. Let the dead bury the dead.

Junkster said...

Some disturbing thoughts just came to me. Suppose there was a pastor who was "ethically challenged", or, if you wanted to be more charitable, suppose he was simply someone who had an agenda that he genuinely believed was from God, and he believed it was so important that it seemed as if the ends justified the means. And suppose that, to fully accomplish that agenda, the pastor knew he would somehow have to eliminate any serious dissent. Suppose he knew that to get rid of anyone who was not already blindly loyal, he needed some event, or a series of events, that would disturb all those folks who might oppose his agenda so much that they would willingly leave the church.

Supposing all that, what sort of scenario might such a pastor be willing to facilitate or help engineer to clear out the dissenters? Would he be willing to intentionally do something he knew would highly upset a large number of people, with the specific goal of causing many to leave? Would he be willing to, for example, purposefully sit for months on very disturbing information that should have been acted on immediately -- knowing that, when it eventually came out that he had the information and had done nothing about it, the fallout would be exactly what he wanted ... that members who were unwilling to blindly follow him would leave the church?

Put more directly, is it possible that SG made no mistake at all in his handling of the PW situation? Could it be that he sat on the information on purpose (knowing that the situation would eventually become public, and that when it did, it would also become public that he had known about it and done nothing) because he knew that doing so would speed up his intended process of "uprooting" and removing any serious opposition, so he could then rebuild the kind of church, with the kind of followers, he had in mind all along? Didn't he say that he told the BBC pastor search committee everything BBC did wrong that would have to change if he became pastor?

Am I a total cynic to wonder if it is possible that the mass exodus out of BBC might have been his intent all along, and to ask if there is any chance that the choices made in the PW situation might have been deliberately orchestrated to accomplish that intent?

oc said...

tn lizzie.

I can preach. I can teach. I can pastor. Have done so. Can give you references.
Got some credentials. I will share them with you. They are most humble, however.

Just sayin'.
oc.

New BBC Open Forum said...

junk wrote:

"Am I a total cynic to wonder if it is possible that the mass exodus out of BBC might have been his intent all along, and to ask if there is any chance that the choices made in the PW situation might have been deliberately orchestrated to accomplish that intent?"

I think you give him too much credit! I'm more inclined to think PW knew something SG didn't want known and that SG was protecting his own interests by not saying anything. PW reportedly got a sizable raise during the 6 months in which SG knew about the situation. I don't think he thought anyone would ever find out about PW, but he didn't consider that the victim might speak out.

However, I do believe the new "covenants" and the checking of tithing records and the like definitely fit your scenario. If you read in the topic heading about the 40% reduction in the number of youth SS classes, doesn't it stand to reason there's probably been a similar reduction in the number of youth playing sports? So they don't need as many coaches now. What better way to weed out the "dissenters" than to require them to do something so distasteful that some will resign rather than conform? I think that's exactly what we're seeing with the coaching staff.

Sounds like they're already short on SS teachers, so they may hesitate to run any more of them off, but if they think they can get by with it, don't put it past them. As I said, "Sunday School teachers, staff members, ushers, choir and orchestra members, and... déjà vu, deacons... all beware. Your day is coming!"

Psalm 43:3 said...

NASS- Good analysis. When a church gets smaller it needs fewer workers, but the problem with a declining church is that budget needs stay the same unless programming and vocational staff are cut. Is this next, or have the resignations taken care of this problem?

tn_lizzie2000 said...

oc,

Is it possible that God is calling you to start up a new church? I'll pray with you about the possibility! :o)

You said about yourself:
"I can preach. I can teach. I can pastor. Have done so. Can give you references. Got some credentials. I will share them with you. They are most humble, however."

You seem to have more to offer a congregation than...well...some folks!

I'm prayin'

:o)

oc said...

Lizzie,
Yes. Let's pray.

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
I think you give him too much credit!

Perhaps. But perhaps a very shrewd man would rather have people underestimate him.

I'm more inclined to think PW knew something SG didn't want known and that SG was protecting his own interests by not saying anything.

Doesn't seem likely to me ... if SG had something of that nature that PW knew, there would be little reason it would not have been made public when PW's "secret" got out.

PW reportedly got a sizable raise during the 6 months in which SG knew about the situation.

Not to sound like a conspiracy nut, but if SG were purposefully intending to use a distastestul situation to run folks off, wouldn't it make sense to do things he knew would increase outrage? He already knew he and the other leadership would never allow a true public hearing or meeting to call him on the carpet for it.

I don't think he thought anyone would ever find out about PW, but he didn't consider that the victim might speak out.

SG knew that the victim was trying to meet with him, and he refused to do so. He had every reason to expect that it would become public. Once a victim finally begins to speak out, very little can stop them from speaking out more.

However, I do believe the new "covenants" and the checking of tithing records and the like definitely fit your scenario.

Yes, regardless of his intent with the PW situation, SG has to know that the "covenants", etc. will run off (or at least remove from any position of leadership or service) any remaining dissent. I have heard it stated that the leadership expects to get rid of another sizable chunk of folks and then they can begin to "rebuild" a new BBC.

concernedSBCer said...

Junk said: "I have heard it stated that the leadership expects to get rid of another sizable chunk of folks and then they can begin to "rebuild" a new BBC."

I have heard this too! The number I have heard is 1500-1600 folks. I just can't imagine.

padroc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Yuri G. Yancy said...

It would be nice just to go to church and hear a message from God and not a message that seems to have an agenda. It just seems that so many of the messages are self-serving and not Christ honoring.

I just believe that with all that as gone on so many are put on the defensive in respect to the current administration. It was said on Sunday about 3 weeks ago "that if you know the gospel you are free indeed." This statement could be misleading to some and it is not what the Bible said. John 8:36 (KJV) says "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." There is a difference in these two statements. Also there may be many who know the gospel and know that it is true and still go to hell because they decide not to make Christ their Lord and follow Him.

It was also stated that we as Christians should change when associating with the unsaved; we should learn their culture (I do agree with this to a certain degree) and we should change (I don't agree with this part at all). Maybe if it was explained about how we should change it would have helped. I just did not understand what he meant by "we should change." (I wonder how many others did not understand either).

Then a verse was used from the New American Standard Bible—
1 Corinthians 9:23: I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. (all things is a very broad phrase which leaves room for anything in some people's mind).

Then King James Version of the same verse: And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

There seems to be a slight difference in the two. Again a little explanation would help.

It seems that the messages preached have no depth. We just skim the top and leave the rest to everyone's imagination which is not good.

I don't want to pick apart everything that is said, but it is getting very hard to continue, but I don't want to leave my church home either. Why should I?

Yuri G. Yancy

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