Thursday, July 12, 2007

It's the "spirit" of the thing...

This is a continuation of the previous thread.

On Sunday, November 5, 2006, there was a marathon BBC deacons' meeting that started in the afternoon, recessed for the evening service (which was followed by the second "information meeting" where we were told how the deacons had "reviewed" the credit card receipts and determined that the pastor had done nothing wrong), then resumed after the service and didn't end until around 11:00 p.m.

Here is a clarification of what transpired during this meeting and afterwards which resulted in the deacon loyalty oath:

1. Near the end of the approximately 6-hour meeting, an idea (not a formal motion) was proposed which referenced supporting the pastor. This was thought by many deacons to simply mean "support" as in prayer, service to the body, etc., not blindly "swallowing and following" the pastor no matter what and certainly not agreeing to signing a statement that, to many members, had all the appearance of pledging an oath to a man. In any case, it was this idea regarding support of the pastor which was passed unanimously (meaning there were no dissenting votes) by those who remained in the meeting. As one deacon put it, after spending nearly six hours in that emotionally-charged, grueling, frustrating, heart-wrenching meeting, he would have agreed to almost anything just so the meeting could be adjourned.

2. A few days later the deacon body received an e-mail containing the "loyalty oath" as reprinted in the previous topic heading. For many deacons, this motion hardly resembled the simple "support" motion voted on in the meeting, and all the deacons were being required to sign it. Yet no one could remember that motion being read word for word at the meeting. However, deacon chairman Chuck Taylor stated in his e-mail that all who were present unanimously approved this motion.

3. It was later learned from some of the deacon officers that the final wording of the motion was drafted after the meeting. Apparently, the deacons' meeting was taped and the opinions and viewpoints expressed by certain deacons that evening were used as a basis for the final wording of the motion. Those supporting the motion claimed this represented the "spirit" of the original motion that was voted on in the meeting. This is where a number of deacons disagreed, and they did not sign the oath. In fact, only about 80 of the 180-plus deacons signed it. Many serious concerns had been expressed during the meeting, and it was felt these were completely ignored by those who drafted this new motion.

4. Finally, Chuck Taylor announced that the deacon officers had decided not to bring the motion to the congregation that following Sunday but to postpone it until a later time. By the way, Mr. Taylor, it's been over 8 months now, and we're still waiting....

Questions to ask:

1. Why was the wording of the motion finalized after the meeting and then claimed in an e-mail sent to the deacons that it was unanimously approved at the earlier meeting of the deacon body? Should not this finalized version of the motion have been brought back to the deacon body for discussion and a proper vote?

2. Was the objective to try and intimidate the deacons who had serious concerns about various issues into signing a document that was considered by many to be a clear violation of Scripture?

3. What authority did the officers have to postpone a motion they claimed had been voted on unanimously by all the deacons (we know it wasn't)? What's the point of voting on motions at deacons' meetings if the officers can rewrite or postpone them later?

4. What was the real reason the officers decided to postpone the motion? Was it because of the positive feedback taking place between the Communications Committee and various groups and individuals in the church as they claimed, or was there another reason?

5. Who all was involved in drafting the loyalty oath?

Concerned members are encouraged to contact deacons who remained until the end of this meeting to see if their version of these events matches those here.

786 comments:

1 – 200 of 786   Newer›   Newest»
New BBC Open Forum said...

There was another deacons' meeting on December 3, 2006. (You may remember they had the last Communications Committee meeting that morning. Another meeting had been scheduled for December 10th, but it was cancelled due to the previous meetings being such rowsing successes.)

During this meeting, when Steve Gaines stepped out of the room, Chuck Taylor reportedly brought up the issue of the "pledge" again. He was said to have shown disrespect to several of the deacons who expressed opposition.

Apparently SG had not indicated to the deacon body as a whole that he wanted such a pledge. (He didn't indicate he didn't want it either.) One deacon had proposed a different motion, a less strongly worded motion he'd apparently run past the pastor first, and he stated SG had said he had no objection to them considering it. However, Chuck Taylor objected, and the motion was not voted on.

It was then decided the deacons wouldn't have to sign anything, but they were going to be required to stand on the platform the following Sunday morning as a show of solidarity and support for the pastor.

However, that got cancelled, too. Two weeks later BBC, SG, and PW were all over the news. I suppose a mass show of support for the pastor at that point would have been a bit... embarrassing.

Lin said...

Jon, it would be preposterous to try and convince you that Gaines is a false teacher. Why? Because you have given me enough red flags to think you are one, too.

I know that does not sound charming and it certainly gives me no pleasure to say it. In fact, it grieves me to no end. But it MUST be said. You have followers and that makes you dangerous. There are many examples but I will just use one on the last thread. Here is the exchange:

Estes wrote: Col. 4:6 - Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

I like the portion of this passage dealing with salt. Our speech is to always be seasoned with salt. Salt is to have an effect. It can sting when rubbed in a wound. Salt also prevents corruption. A believer's speech should act as a purifying influence, rescuing conversations from the filth that so often engulfs it. Salt also gives flavor,and the believer's speech should add charm and wit to all conversation."

Reply: I responded becasue I was astounded you that you really believe this and actually taught this:

Estes: Salt also gives flavor,and the believer's speech should add charm and wit to all conversation."

Reply: I am looking for passages in the NT that are charming and witty...would this one quailify?

"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. "

Written by a not so charming and witty Paul to Timothy.

Charm is 'deceitful' for example:

Nahum 3

4All because of the many harlotries of the harlot,
The charming one, the mistress of sorceries,
Who sells nations by her harlotries
And families by her sorceries.

Or this one...

Psalm 58

4Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

5Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

6Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.

Hebrew for Charm:

sheqer
sheh'-ker
an untruth; by implication a sham (often adverbially): - without a cause, deceit (-ful), false (-hood, -ly), feignedly, liar, + lie, lying, vain (thing), wrongfully.

4:41 PM, July 09, 2007

Jon, I am still amazed that you think Christians should season their speech with 'charm' and 'wit'. I could understand truth, love, passion, etc. But, charm? wit? It makes me question every single comment of yours...are you seasoning it with charm as defined above?

This is but one example. I go back to your first comment ever on this blog trying to tell us that this blog was 'throwing spears at God's anointed' likening Gaines to 'King Saul'.

Anyone who has studied scripture at all knows that ALL Saints are 'anointed'. There are NO special people in Christendom. God is NO respector of titles and positions...even at church.

Lin said...

Nass, you always find the best cartoons.

concernedSBCer said...

Well, I certainly hope Jon takes "time" to read the end of the last thread....there were several important messages to him.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

"Show me the words. I did not make the accusation and it is not I who should provide the source. If you want to be people of Truth, then show the words."

We've been showing the words for 11 months! You just haven't been around to read them. Spend some time in the archives of this blog, the "Featured Items" page of Saving Bellevue, and the "Events" page of IDC. You can't do it in one night, one week, and probably not in one month. It takes a lot of time to read and digest it all, but it's there if you're willing to make the effort.

"As I stated, provide the source and I will make contact with SG. I will go to my friends and ask them to make contact."

Go read for yourself, but I can tell you now that he'll simply deny everything. Or rather David Coombs will deny everything. I doubt Steve Gaines would give you the time of day.

"Don't ask me to do your homework."

And don't ask us to do yours!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lin,

Thanks. For both your comments.

Jon L. Estes said...

Lin,

So you can't prove your accusations. Not surprising.

As far as charm and wit. Charm is not always a negative word and I was not using it in the sense you provide. Think of charm as pleasant. Do you think our words should not be pleasant.

The verse stated these words atthe end...

that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

That we may talk pleasant to man.

Wit - speech or writing showing such perception and expression.

I stated in the previous post that these words "charm and wit" were used by John MacArthur in his commentary on this passage.

Next - I have stated all saints are anointed. This fact does not change the point I was making.

Now, Since you are seeking truth, show us truth by revealing the source for the accusations made. I'll stand with you against SG.

I think you keep diverting because you can't.

This says so much more about you than me.

It's easy to chuck spears, isn't it?

Why should SG respond to such baseless accusations? You, sir, do not want truth you want a target.

You are in my prayers.

Jon, it would be preposterous to try and convince you that Gaines is a false teacher.

I have said, show me he stated what you say he stated and I will believe you. Until then you need to disconnect the horn you keep blowing.

You remind me of the boy who cried wolf.

Jon L. Estes said...

New,

Saying he said is not a source. Especially from a critic. I want to believe you (not for the sake of SG being wrong) but for you to be right.

continuallyamazed said...

To those who thought I was "fussing" at you for not being "patient", I wasn't. And, I agree, there is no "3rdside", there is right or wrong, Truth or Lie. I guess, what I meant to say, is that some will not come to the point of "seeing" at the same time we do. We must keep shouting the Truth and never stop, but we can not make people see, only the Holy Spirit can. We all know there are those who didn't open their eyes in December, or even, January, but they have their eyes open now. We must keep asking the Father to take their blinders off. Again, if I offended anyone here, I do apologize.

To Mr. Estes, I for one do not need to "provide" you anything. I listened to the sermons, I sat and listened to his lies in the pulpit. You say you'll do this, or you'll do that, WHY DIDN'T YOU CALL SG IN DECEMBER WHEN IT WAS ANNOUNCED AND ADMITTED BY HIM HE HAD KEPT A PEDAFILE ON STAFF FOR 6 MONTHS? You say you agree with our position on this-- then WHY DIDN'T YOU ACT THEN? Want to know what I think? I think you're all talk. I think you see yourself as the "great restorer", the "one who helped those poor misguided people." I THINK you think more of yourself than you should. I also think, that all of your time spent on this blog "trying to help us poor misguided souls" is "robbing" the flock God has placed you over. I THINK it might be time for you to take this blog off your "favorites" list and push away from the keyboard. This has nothing to do with you disagreeing with us. This is all about things you know nothing about, and you've already shown "we" as part of the body of Christ cannot depend on you to STAND on the WORD when it counts the most. Thank you and goodbye.

To the rest, I'm going back to lurking!!!

Rowdy Lynn said...

Jon,

Here are 4 signs that Steve Gaines is a false teacher.....

1. Steve Tucker and Chuck Taylor told Mike Spradlin that SG doesn't think Matthew 18 applies to the pastor.

2. Those who don't bow to the pastor's "authority" being compared to devil worshippers.

3. Timothy and Titus are just "guidelines" for the qualifications of ministry. (See #4.)

4. It's okay to keep a confessed sexual predator/pedophile on staff.


So take your pretentious, pompous hot air somewhere else. Its too hot for it. We don't need any more.

concernedSBCer said...

Jon: GO READ THE INFORMATION.

It is all there. It was all documented very carefully.

Go download the sermons and use your Bible to filter them.

Lin doesn't have to prove anything to you because you are too lazy to go read it for yourself. Everything can't be handed to you on a silver platter; some things have to be worked for yourself. And you know, we're not saying you have to go play detective....you just have to read the detective's report. Unless of course you refuse to believe anything anyway because you don't want to believe.

I'm really trying to be charming and graceful but your refusal to do any research yourself is frustrating. Pretend it's a sermon....go study and work for it.

Come back and let us know when you are finished.
:)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Well, I was composing a comment when "continuallyamazed's" post came in. I can't add anything to that! Except maybe this.

concernedSBCer said...

Continually Amazed: Well said.
:)

Lin said...

"Hypothetically, If someone accused a person very close to you of molesting a child, as bad as that is and should never be, you would want proof before you labeled the person."

Lets see. Hypothetically, if the victim was my own child and had approached my boss who happens to be a pastor and I was a minister of prayer....hmmm...somehow does scripture enter in to this equation at all for you? Above reproach?

Oh, I forgot, the minister of prayer actually confessed it BECAUSE HE HAD TO. If he had not, the victim (his own son) was going to do it for him.

How much proof do you need, Jon? Because any more needed proof you would have had to have been there. And I mean 'there'.

But you won't ever be convinced. Why? Because you are here for a reason, aren't you.

Lin said...

Estes: I stated in the previous post that these words "charm and wit" were used by John MacArthur in his commentary on this passage."

Reply: Prove it.

Estes: Next - I have stated all saints are anointed. This fact does not change the point I was making."

Sure you did. After WE pointed that fact out to you. Then you started changing your tune like you always do.

"Now, Since you are seeking truth, show us truth by revealing the source for the accusations made. I'll stand with you against SG."

Talk to the DA

"I think you keep diverting because you can't."

You are cruel. A son does not want to make his father go to jail and you are actually calling him a liar on this blog. You are shameless.

Estes: This says so much more about you than me."

Thank you.

"It's easy to chuck spears, isn't it?"

Right into the victims heart.

"Why should SG respond to such baseless accusations? You, sir, do not want truth you want a target."

Gaines made HIMSELF a target by his unbiblical decisions and teaching.

"You are in my prayers."

Please don't. I do not believe in imprecatory prayers.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Someone informed me Phil Weatherwax announced in his SS class this past Sunday that his son-in-law, Michael Crouch, has been hired by BBC. Does anyone know what his position is going to be? Wonder who else on staff has a son or son-in-law they'd like to bring on staff? Hmmm....

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

"Hypothetically, If someone accused a person very close to you of molesting a child, as bad as that is and should never be, you would want proof before you labeled the person. Am I correct?"

Depends on what you call "proof." Ironically, I bet that's what a lot of adults have said to children who tried to tell them someone was molesting them. "Give me proof." How many innocent children have been abused for years because of attitudes like yours?

"What would you say to the person making such an accusation who says, its true but it is up to you to go find out the facts for yourself?"

Okay, what part of this don't you understand?

1. PW confessed to SG and others over a year ago.

2. SG said (from the pulpit -- I was there and heard him, and it was splashed all over the news) that PW confessed to him.

3. The Investigative Committee, as inadequate as they were, even concluded that it happened and documented it in a written report.

I'm satisfied it happened. Just what more in the way of "proof" do you need?

I really do think you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Keep it up. You're making yourself look really foolish.

concernedSBCer said...

BTW Jon......you'll stand against SG? Time will tell. Actions mean something.

(Clarification: This is not a plan to get SG out of the pulpit; it is a desire to get integrity back into the pulpit.)

Junkster said...

Jon L. Estes said...
If the church body, as a majority, did not revolt they chose to let him stay by their non-action. This is more as to what I was thinking.

Revolt? What, like an armed insurrection? What exactly could be done? The leadership (which consists of SG and his supporters) controls who says what, when, and for how long. So a lot of the congregation was in the dark about the full facts of the PW matter ... all they got was the spin of the leadership's internal investigation report. No opportunity was, or will be, provided for any action to be taken against SG. The investigation and report provided no opportunity for repurcussions, no disciplinary action, no further discussion or action on the part of the congregation.

Nonetheless, those who knew the truth (about PW and other matters) and wanted accountibility did everything possible to work through a corrupt and one-sided system, and were shut down at every turn. The only remaining avenue is the courts ... and I personally wish someone would take that route.

And with this, Jon, I hereby formally announce my intention to cease engaging in attempts at dialog with you. It is like talking to a cinder-block wall, except some walls have more interesting things to say. Frankly, I am tired of this being the "Jon" blog and I'm starting to feel like you have an attention-grabbing appetite, which I have no desire to feed. Blessings to you.

concernedSBCer said...

Jon said: "Since you are seeking truth, show us truth by revealing the source for the accusations made. I'll stand with you against SG."

The proof for the whole PW horror is in the victim's testimony and report. READ IT. (Does this sound familiar?) The victim went to SG and basically said if SG didn't do something, the victim would make it public. This particular abuse was not a one-time thing, but lasted 12-18 months. SG found out in June 2006. He talked to PW and said "the sin was forgiven" saying it was "under the blood." Was that a false statement? Does forgiveness negate consequences? (that's a previous thread too. You'll want to read it.)

Now, it seems to me this is from credible sources.....the victim and PW both admitted it was true...the report (while admittedly could have been improved, still validated the accusations and who knew what when) and SG. What other proof do you need, Jon?

Grab your reading glasses and go to it.

concernedSBCer said...

Junk: Excellent Post. Instead of trying to communicate with Jon, I think I'll instead pray for him and his congregation. Some of what we've heard here from him is downright scary.

gmommy said...

So why WOULD we care to Prove ANYTHING to this person????

Have any on this blog even pretended to respect jon for his wisdom or scripture discernment????

Did anyone indicate that we WANTED jon to "stand with us?"

We want people to STAND on the Word of God....

what's in this for you,jon....?

a few laughs, power trip,?

or maybe you have something to lose.

You know what people think of your opinions.....but you are still instructing .....
as if you think you have authority or influence here......
I doubt your time is cheap...

gmommy said...

So why WOULD we care to Prove ANYTHING to this person????

Have any on this blog even pretended to respect jon for his wisdom or scripture discernment????

Did anyone indicate that we WANTED jon to "stand with us?"

We want people to STAND on the Word of God....

what's in this for you,jon....?

a few laughs, power trip,?

or maybe you have something to lose.

You know what people think of your opinions.....but you are still instructing .....
as if you think you have authority or influence here......
I doubt your time is cheap...

gmommy said...

junk,
Will you be on my team at our next bowling party!!!!

gmommy said...

junk,
Will you be on my team at our next bowling party!!!!

oc said...

jon says:
Show me the words. I did not make the accusation and it is not I who should provide the source. If you want to be people of Truth, then show the words.
I don't think you would support un-sourced accusations like this against you or a member of your family. As I stated, provide the source and I will make contact with SG. I will go to my friends and ask them to make contact.

Don't ask me to do your homework.

oc says:
Blah blah blah blah....

Listen Bubba. You come running into this blog with mouth blazin', mind blank. You come here without knowing the 'context', yet you are determined to deliver a sermon of disgrace to beaten sheep based upon your misconception of 'grace'. A grace which apparently allows sin to have it's way, as long as it is a 'pastor' that is perpetrating it, that is. No justice, no wrath, no accountablility. How convenient, as Church Lady might say.

And now you want to talk about someone else doing their homework?
Several have tried to show you the error of your ways. But your arrogance would not allow such. You continue to make sure all of us heathens are aware of your prayer times, evangelistic successes, your above average preaching, etc. Too bad we are such heathens that we are not impressed.

Too bad your dog ate your homework.

Just sayin'.
oc.

Junkster said...

gmommy said...
junk,
Will you be on my team at our next bowling party!!!!


Wouldn't you rather your team won??

Junkster said...

oc,
woof woof!

Lin said...

"I think I'll instead pray for him and his congregation. Some of what we've heard here from him is downright scary. "

Concernedsbcer, I agree. I am very concerned for any abuse victim that may go to him for counseling. I am starting to see what Christa and David Brown are up against in the SBC. When pastors have this attitude toward victims of abuse, it makes it impossible for victims to expect any 'sanctuary' at their own church! It amazes me that the secular world is more compassionate toward victims than the church.

Lin said...

"Revolt? What, like an armed insurrection?"

LOL. A coup d'etat?

oc said...

Junkster,

More like GRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

Just sayin',

oc.

Mary said...

Brother Jon Estes,

Family activities delayed my getting back to you regarding my post of 4:10 PM, July 11, 2007 on the previous thread, and your subsequent response regarding the hypothetical snakes in the campground -- AKA wolves in sheep’s clothing who enter the Church with another gospel.

I’m sure you understood the analogy as it was quite elementary and obviously related not only to the present situation at BBC, but to circumstances facing many Christians around the world in this post-modern culture where the truth of Scripture is being trampled under foot by so many who disguise themselves in the cloaks of religion and piety, all the while selling easy-believism wrapped in the false warmth of unity.

YOUR reply was as follows:

Jon L. Estes said...
Mary,

I would tell all those I could at the park or on the trail. I would not go on the internet and tell every Tom, Dick and Jane from all over America and the world that snakes are in the park, to get out and run. Not everyone is in danger of the snakes.



Jon, I was hoping you would be willing to stand in the gap and warn EVERYONE but I see that you are not that man. I am very disappointed in your answer, for you, sir, are wrong! Wrong! WRONG!

Everyone is in danger of the snakes! If they are not in your flock today then Praise God, but they could slither in tomorrow or the day after (2Cor 11: 13-15) and I pray you will have the discernment to see them and to rebuke them according to Scripture, for they represent spiritual warfare, the battle between God and the powers of darkness (Eph 6:12).

In your reply to me, you said you
would not go on the Internet to warn. I NEVER MENTIONED THE INTERNET! And this brings me to another conclusion that I find MOST DISTURBING, as noted in the following posts between NASS and yourself:


New BBC Open Forum said...
Jon wrote:

"I would tell all those I could at the park or on the trail. I would not go on the internet and tell every Tom, Dick and Jane from all over America and the world that snakes are in the park, to get out and run. Not everyone is in danger of the snakes."

(NASS replied)

What if the park rangers detain Mary and won't let her warn anyone? Doesn't Mary have the duty to warn everyone, not just those still in the park, but those who might venture into the park, that there are snakes there?

Today the snakes aren't just in one single park. They're in many parks. People need to know what to be on the lookout for. You are wrong. Everyone in our churches today is in danger of the snakes.

Mr. Estes, please kindly get your self-righteous, self-serving proverbial vehicle's tire off "piglet's" foot... and ours.
5:22 PM, July 11, 2007



And YOUR reply:


Jon L. Estes said...
New,

I spoke directly to the example Mary gave. Not external things she did not speak about. She did not say should she warn everyone about snakes in any park.

No self righteousness here. Being in disagreement or thinking differently does not make one party or both self righteous.
5:31 PM, July 11, 2007



Jon Estes, I say this in love and with a heavy heart, but that, sir, is a LIE! Re-read my post. I NEVER mentioned the Internet! How can you claim you “spoke directly to the example” I gave and “not external things” of which I did not speak? You do know who the father of lies is, don’t you? Why did you think it necessary to LIE?

And, since you did not say you would put yourself at risk to go back into the campground to get the two deaf teens, I will tell you that they represent the new people in the Church who have never heard God’s true plan of salvation because of the false doctrine that now prevails. They were bitten by the snakes, Pastor Jon Estes, and they died. Their souls are in hell and their blood is on YOUR HANDS!

Please, I beg you, put down your books written by men and get into the Word, and pray and study, and learn of Him Whom you claim to represent.

Mary

Jon L. Estes said...

Lin said...

Estes: I stated in the previous post that these words "charm and wit" were used by John MacArthur in his commentary on this passage."

Reply: Prove it.


Now this is funny. You make an accusation and I ask for proof. You say, it is up to me to prove what you say is true.

I say John MacArthur used the term charm and wit and you say it is up to me to prove what I say is true.

I'll get the quote later, the book is in my office, now will you back up your words. Probably not. Can you prove your words are true?

You are cruel. A son does not want to make his father go to jail and you are actually calling him a liar on this blog. You are shameless.

Baseless. I called no one a liar. I am asking for proof of the false teaching. Please stay on subject. Your attempt to make it about PW and son is shameless. That's been covered, I am with you on this one, the proof has been shown. I have made my position known about the PW decisions, away from this blog.

Now lets deal with the false teaching. Back up the accusations.

This is no longer about SG being but the unsubstantiated accusations coming from you and a few others on this blog.

Where is the truth you stand for? Not in unsubstantiated accusations.

Jon L. Estes said...

New,

I have seen the proof on the PW mess and stand with you on this being wrong and SG should remove himself because of it. Fact, he has not and does not look like he will. This is wrong.

Now, since we all know this is provable fact, thank you...where is the proof on the other accusations, the false teaching. The teaching on the bible being just a guideline. That everyone must submit to his authority...

This is what I am seeking proof on.

Jon L. Estes said...

My hypothetical scenario was stated the way it was because I did not want to personalize it. It has been misused to show I would not stand against child molestation. Let me make it directly and see if it makes clearer sense.

Hypothetically Lin, If you were accused of child molestation (and no I am not accusing you) would you want the person making such accusation to give proof or do you support a lynch mob to attack you?

The comment is focused on providing proof. For reaffirmation. PW is guilty and should have been removed immediately and the police called upon discovery of abuse. No arguments about that. Holding back info is grounds for dismissal for any staff person.

But to call someone a false teacher and make specific accusations without source, is wrong.

I am simply asking for source. Give me a link to the source, not a bunch of sermons I need to scour. Not someones comment or memory of an event.

I am beginning to think of you in how you describe SG. If you don't agree with him and do it his way you are attacked and called trouble makers. You need to go somewhere else.

Do you see the similarities?

32yrs@bbc said...

jon estes seems to have replaced Miss Billie in creating a fire storm. Why waste your time and emotional energy? His mind is set in concrete and he obviously is enjoying the ruckus he has stirred up. I am beginning to realize that pastors, like physicians, are more concerned with circling the wagons and protecting one of their own than holding them accountable.

jon is a prime example of many sitting in the pews of BBC. The integrity of a once glorious church
is crumbling all around them and yet they choose to ignore it. Because he doesn't preach heresy, they are willing to give him a pass on weakness of character. (There ARE those who still don't know the whole story, and others know the facts and yet are choosing to stick it out praying God will somehow intervene.)

I look at some in leadership whom I genuinely respected and am amazed how they are supporting such a breakdown in integrity. I ask myself: "Is the position they've held for so long in the hierarchy at Bellevue so important that they are willing to overlook
and rationalize the obvious?"

There's much I cannot understand with my finite mind, but this I know: Our God reigns - in the midst of it all; and in the end, His will will be done.:-)

"WHO SHALL ASCEND INTO THE HILL OF THE LORD? OR WHO SHALL STAND IN HIS HOLY PLACE? HE WHO HATH CLEAN HANDS, AND A PURE HEART, WHO HATH NOT LIFTED UP HIS SOUL UNTO VANITY, NOR SWORN DECEITFULLY."
(PS. 24:3,4)

concernedSBCer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
concernedSBCer said...

32 said: "I am beginning to realize that pastors, like physicians, are more concerned with circling the wagons and protecting one of their own than holding them accountable."

AMEN. And it's shameful.

Jon L. Estes said...

Mary,

I see it differently. I did not lie, I spoke to your post. What I added was my thoughts in relation to your story and this blog. This blog is not about warning people about snakes everywhere, but the one thought to be at BBC.

Sop far I have not seen any false teacher proof just a bunch of bitter accusations.

It would be sad to cry snake in the park when there is not one. Show me the snake (false teacher). No one can all they can do is cry "snake".

Leaving PW on staff for 6 months was wrong on all counts but this does make SG a false teacher.

Jon L. Estes said...

This pastor is concerned with truth. The accusation of false teacher is not proof. Everyone keeps skirting the proof, source and shooting the one seeking the truth.

You make the claim, back it up. Where is the false teaching.

Piglet said...

NASS said

What if the park rangers detain Mary and won't let her warn anyone? Doesn't Mary have the duty to warn everyone, not just those still in the park, but those who might venture into the park, that there are snakes there?

Piglet says:

I dare say that if the park rangers "detained" Mary and would not let her warn everyone because they were afraid it would run people off, she would use a bullhorn if she had one and warn them from outside the park!

And guess what, people outside the park would hear her warning as well and not venture in! And whose fault would that be?

Hmmmm....

Folks like Jon would be there to rebuke Mary for disturbing the peace...

MOM4 said...

jon said..
"I have seen the proof on the PW mess and stand with you on this being wrong and SG should remove himself because of it. Fact, he has not and does not look like he will. This is wrong."

IF this alone is enough to remove him from the pulpit, why have you not addressed it with him if you are so above reproach yourself? Having a man like that in the pulpit is a slap in the face of Christ!
You have facts - why are YOU not acting on the knowledge you have as a fellow pastor is required to do or do you not believe Matthew 18 applies to you either?
There are sins of omission as well as sins of commission - it is time for you to either act, or troll on.

Lin said...

Mary and others,

Nothing like trying to talk to a 'pastor' who twists words and diverts on purpose then claiming that is not what he said or meant!

He did that with the 'God's anointed man' thing way back on his first comment. Only after we showed him scripture negating his bad analogy did he start saying we 'misunderstood' him. Estes is the master of that.

Many have given examples that Estes demands but the most glaring one is that Gaines had knowledge that he had a pedophile minister for 6 mos and thought that was ok. No problemo. See, guys like Gaines and Estes can ignore scriptre like 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians 5. Scary, huh?

They have so become desensitized to sin in their ambition they cannot see that blatently ignoring and twisting scripture makes them false teachers. It is all about building big churches, new buildings and more tithes. It has ceased to be about 'truth' at all costs. At ALL costs.

25+ mentions integrity. That is really the basis for it all. But if your pastor has no intergrity what does that make him? Still a pastor? Scripturally, I do not believe it does. It makes him a false teacher.

Estes likens requiring accountability from a pastor as like a 'lynch mob'. That is his view of people who disagree. He is using the language of the 'liberals' he seems to disdain. I also find it ironic that talking to Estes is like trying to follow the Clintons in discerning their true beliefs. It is impossible because they, too, change/twist responses so often, it is impossible to know what is really in their heart. And it works~!

Perhaps he can finally talk the liberal Baptist Life Forum into reinstating his posting priviledges and go over there and bug them for a while with his confusing, twisted and diverting repartee.

I really think we are witnessing 2 Thess 2. See, Estes thinks it is ok for us to drink a beautiful clear glass of water with only 1 tsp of sewage water in it. Just a little leaven is ok. It's not. It is poison and it kills.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

"What I added was my thoughts in relation to your story and this blog. This blog is not about warning people about snakes everywhere, but the one thought to be at BBC."

As did I. But you blasted me for doing it.

It's not your place to say what this blog is about. Lately it's been more about you than anything, and I'm tired of it. It has evolved over time, and today it is indeed about warning people about the "snakes" everywhere.

"Sop far I have not seen any false teacher proof just a bunch of bitter accusations."

It's only because you've spent all your time trying to argue with us instead of going and reading and listening for yourself. Really, sir, you sound like a broken record. We've told you where to go find your answers. We're not going to spoon feed it to you. We've spent months getting up to speed. If you want to continue to come here and weigh in on matters that, frankly, don't concern you, then I'd suggest you spend the time educating yourself. Otherwise, drop it.

"It would be sad to cry snake in the park when there is not one. Show me the snake (false teacher). No one can all they can do is cry 'snake'."

Again, we have cited examples, and you can go read and listen to many more. We're beating a dead horse here. You don't want to listen to us. Fine. Let's try to get "on topic" for a change.

Hey, here's a thought! Why not give us your opinion of the "deacon loyalty oath" described in this and the previous topic headings and your thoughts on how the deacon chairman... shall we say... played fast and loose with the truth... about how the "pledge" came to be? What would you think if your deacon officers did something like that? What would you do about it?

A while back you wrote (speaking of the BaptistLife.com board):

"I wish I could say as a very conservative pastor that being banned from a very liberal forum is a bad thing, but it is not."

Ummm... why are you then petitioning one of their moderators to get back in there? Could it be that you really do like to argue just for the sake of arguing?

Lin said...

Estes: Now lets deal with the false teaching. Back up the accusations."

We have. Ad nauseum. You just don't think it is false teaching because for some reason, it is NOT in your best interests or you are just that ignorant Biblically or you have been sent a delusion.

I do not expect you to see it because we have witnessed it here from you, too.

Obfuscating, twisting, diverting, ignoring, etc. And to think, it all started with you trying to pervert scripture telling us that Gaines is God's anointed man like Saul. Perhaps this is how you view yourself..above others. Specially 'anointed' over other saints. Problem is, it just is not scriptural. (John) So what does that make you? Ignorant? A deciever? A false teacher?

This will end my conversation with you. Quite frankly, after reading any of your posts, I feel the need to saturate myself in scripture and prayer. For truth. For those who are sitting under your teaching. You also may not realize that your teaching here has brought me much pain and grief for the reality of the state of Christendom today.

Blog friends:

NEVER follow a mere man. Only Christ. Sola Scriptura. Test everything. Check everything in scripture in total context.

The days of being able to go to church and just drink in all teaching without being a Berean are over.

Maranantha!

Jon L. Estes said...

MOM4 said...

jon said..
"I have seen the proof on the PW mess and stand with you on this being wrong and SG should remove himself because of it. Fact, he has not and does not look like he will. This is wrong."

IF this alone is enough to remove him from the pulpit, why have you not addressed it with him if you are so above reproach yourself? Having a man like that in the pulpit is a slap in the face of Christ!
You have facts - why are YOU not acting on the knowledge you have as a fellow pastor is required to do or do you not believe Matthew 18 applies to you either?
There are sins of omission as well as sins of commission - it is time for you to either act, or troll on.

10:15 AM, July 13, 2007


This is not the place for me to announce what I have said to SG but I can say I have let my thought on this subject be known to those guilty.

Now, as to the wring being committed here. Where is the proof of SG being a false teacher?

Jon L. Estes said...

Lin says: Estes likens requiring accountability from a pastor as like a 'lynch mob'. That is his view of people who disagree.

This is a clear distortion of anything I have stated, I am beginning to believe it is done on purpose to take the light of the unsubstantiated claims being thrown out.

Lin, you don't want truth. If you did you would know I was talking about the lynch mob being gathered to pounce on someone only because they were accused. If I am wrong, give the proof, show the source.

Oh, you can't? Why is that?

Jon L. Estes said...

Hey, here's a thought! Why not give us your opinion of the "deacon loyalty oath" described in this and the previous topic headings

I think it is needed at BBC for one simple reason. There is someone among the deacons who does not know how to keep confidentiality. There is no reason for what transpired in a deacons meeting to be announced on this forum. For this to happen one or more of the deacons are speaking out of turn or someone is making up stories about that which they do not know.

You tell me which is it...

1 - Are the things happening in the deacons meeting being made up?

or

2 - Is one of the deacons speaking about the goings on in the deacons meeting after the fact?

If it is # 1 , then someone needs to stop lying.

If it is # 2 then someone needs to resign.

You tell me.

MOM4 said...

Please remember to pray for the Miriam Wilmouth family whose father, Kenneth Coleman, passed away yesterday. Most of you may know this lady.

3rdside said...

MOM4 said... 3rd side,
Do you believe church discipline as it is given in Matthew 18 applies to all Christians or to a select few?

I believe it is for all born again believers.

MOM4 said... 3rd side,
How about the qualifications of a pastor as outlined in scripture being just "guidelines"? Since when did a Bible believing, saved by grace Baptist believe that scripture was only "guidelines"?

I believe we are 100% guided by the scripture in all of our life. The Holy Spirit indwells us and functions for such. Therefore, I believe the qualifications in the Bible are non-negotiable. I believe the Bible in its entirety is the guide for the believer’s life. I have not heard SG or anyone else explain the term “guideline” and I hope there is no intent to imply that they are optional. If that is the case, then that is a false teaching. But, other than the rumor mill here, I have not heard the semantic of that term used in that way.

MOM4 said... And there is no "3rd side" - it is true or false, black or white, Scriptural or unscriptural. There are no "grey areas" and no maybe.

I understand why you say that. Legalist often can only view their opinions and all others have to be grouped as one. That is something you have in common with SG. He sees all who are not in 100% agreement as the enemy and fires them or invites them to move to another church. Another side would be to realize how wrong SG is without being spiteful. I promise you, one will never convince a carnal person of the error of their ways with a harsh tone. There are no grey areas when it comes to God’s Word, but in relational situations, there are. The fact that one would see black and white in the approach to solving problems allows me to understand what I consider mean-spirited attitudes. I honestly think we should continue to grieve over our church and get past the anger phase.

MOM4 said... Sorry, I thought I was being specific and not everyone has the time to elaborate, especially to someone who has neither eyes to see nor ears to hear. This person (3rdside) knows all about all that Steve Gaines is doing and s/he has posted under other names before with different versions of the same questions.
I will refrain from posting "short" replies if you think it will do any good, but I doubt it. Trolls One.

This false accusation reminds me of a narrow-minded pastor I know who wants to eliminate all who do not demonstrate 100% allegiance to him. I have posted occasionally for several months and have never posted under any other name, nor do I know the identity of any other anonymous poster. Furthermore, I do not know any of the identified posters in person.

3rdside said...

continuallyamazed said... 3rdside,I'm going to answer your question on false teaching…What did Jesus call them in the end? Whited sepulchers. Jesus did not unify at all cost. Did Jesus try to work within the system? Yes, he taught in the synagogues, until, he was no longer accepted by the leadership. Then he went to the people. If we're to be unified at all cost, and that's what SG wants as well as those around him, then that is TOTALLY A FALSE TEACHING!!! … How about Paul? Did he teach unity at any cost? Did he ever disagree with those in leadership? Did he ever stand for truth, or stand against the leadership over a Bible principle? The answer to all is "YES!" Paul scolded Peter, because Peter did not love "all the sheep" at ALL TIMES! Peter was choosing when and where he was going to love all the sheep. Paul confronted him. What happened? Peter repented of his lack of love toward all men. (Remember this happened after God had sent Peter to a Gentile, and God had told Peter, none were unclean!) There wasn't unity at any cost, because Paul was going to stand on the TRUTH!

Thanks for the reply. I’ve posted part of your reply above and read clearly that you think SG is lost as the Pharisees and Sadducees were. If my understanding is correct, then I understand why he is viewed as a false teacher. We should never seek to unify with the lost at the expense of the scripture. We differ in that I think he is saved and simply not being led by the Holy Spirit. The line for me is drawn with strong accusations that imply SG is lost. I believe he is saved, yet is not being led by the Spirit, therefore he is a carnal Christian. I think it is dangerous to pass judgment one him in that way...wise to discern his motives, but not wise to declare he is lost.

3rdside said...

Lin said..."A false teaching would be something along the line of saying believer's baptism is optional according to the Bible."
What does that mean for the thief on the cross?
It means nothing for the thief on the cross. He never had the opportunity to be baptized. If someone has the option to be baptized then they have the opportunity. Both may be saved, but one would not have the opportunity and the other would choose not to. A false teaching would be to tell people who have the opportunity that they have the option not to if they so choose.

3rdside said...

concernedSBCer said... 3rd side: I think we are disagreeing on the definition of false teaching. I believe that anything that twists or distorts scripture is false teaching.you said: "A false teaching would be something along the line of saying believer's baptism is optional according to the Bible."
Optional for what? To gain entrance to heaven or to become a member of a church? Believer's Baptism is not required to gain entrance to Heaven....death bed salvation experiences, thief on the cross "This day you shall be with me in paradise"......it is a culture, a tradition, in our church. It is following an example set by Jesus when John baptized Him. And I agree it is important. But I look at false teaching as taking scripture out of context to make it fit what you want to say.

Quite the contrary…baptism is a Biblical doctrine. Repent and be baptized because your sins have been forgiven…Go ye therefore into all the world…baptizing them…

Telling someone that scripture teaches that baptism is an option is to tell them something false. Sure, a person is saved completely without baptism, but never obedient.

3rdside said...

junkster said... 3rdside,
As Lin and I said previously, the term "false teacher" as used in the New Testament refers not only to someone with major doctrinal error, but also to someone who distorts or misuses scripture, or sets aside certain scriptural truths (does not teach the whole counsel of God; i.e., the scripture in context of and in harmony with all of God's truth). Others have provided several specific examples since. If you're looking for a situation in which SG stood up behind the pulpit and denied the virgin birth or something like that, you won't find it. The term for that would be "heretic". The term "false teacher" encompases much more subtle errors than that, including misleading or distorting (Greek diastrepho, Acts 20:30). The New Testament focus is not on the nature or content of the error so much as it on the selfish and dishonest character of the person using their position for personal and ungodly ends rather than for sincere service to Christ. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the explanation...that helps. It is refreshing to have someone discuss and dialogue rather than attack and accuse.

Billie said...

jon estes seems to have replaced Miss Billie in creating a fire storm.

Reply,
We are not against you, we are against the one who is behind the lies and using you to get them out. I do not doubt that any of you are telling what you have perceived to be the truth and that you are doing what you think is the right thing to do but you have been deceived. God is not the one who told any of you to go forth and smear the name of a man of God or any other man or woman. I know you call it presenting the world with truth! God condemns gossip and building self up yet when we put one another down it is an attempt to make ourselves look great. He says in

Proverbs 3 "My son (daughter) do not forget my teaching but keep my commands in your heart for they will prolong your life many years and bring you prosperity. >LET LOVE AND FAITHFULNESS NEVER LEAVE YOU< bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart, then you will win favor and a good name in the sight of God and man. TRUST IN THE LORD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND LEAN NOT ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING in ALL YOUR WAYS acknowledge HIM, and HE will make your paths straight. DO NOT BE WISE IN YOUR OWN EYES; FEAR THE LORD AND SHUN EVIL."

I do not think that any of you are, "evil" but I do think you are breathing in the air from around the evil one (Satan) and the air that is coming out of your mouth is air from his mouth. I have read the fears in your heart of being misled by false doctrine and false teachers. God does not send forth a spirit of fear and the fruits of fear are withdrawal, turning on the offense alarms and screaming for others to get into the closet with you. You are operating out of a closet (computer) spreading your fear instead of believing and trusting God, faithfully supporting the church where your membership is with your attendance and encouraging one another to live by faith in God who is over all men and women (including our Pastor).
God loves ALL people and he does not love you anymore or less than he loves me or Brother Steve and the staff of BBC. We are under the pastor and staff members and deacons and teachers while God is over all and regardless of what we may think that is the way it is! God made the rules. We are told to follow them or face the consequences.
You have labeled us (those who love Jesus Christ, talk and walk daily with Him) trolls, stupid blind goats, followers of a false prophet, false prophets, etc. I have counted it all joy because you have classified me the same as Jesus was by those who thought they were doing God a favor.
I am not a Gaines follower I am a Christ follower who will not rebel against the leader that God has placed over me. I will not say one bad thing about him, if I could not say anything good; I would say nothing at all. I know mostly you will blog back and say that I am putting you down; I am not because I know it is only by the grace of God that Satan has not deceived me into believing his lies. I am responding, out of love, to one who has brought up my name again in an attempt to put me down. I can not get any lower than I am when I sit each morning before Jesus Christ who gave His life for me. I do not wish to redeem myself in your eyes but instead I wish to tell you that Jesus Christ loves you and He is calling you to COME to HIM and sit at HIS feet and see yourself, the miserable condition that Satan has led you into. He will led you out if you will follow HIS teachings.

Billie

Lindon said...

"We differ in that I think he is saved and simply not being led by the Holy Spirit."

That is impossible.

Lindon said...

It means nothing for the thief on the cross. He never had the opportunity to be baptized."

Agreed.

Lindon said...

"We are not against you, we are against the one who is behind the lies and using you to get them out."

What lies? Can you be specific?

MOM4 said...

jon said...
re SG - "This is not the place for me to announce what I have said to SG but I can say I have let my thought on this subject be known to those guilty."

Did you get a response or did he tell you that it was none of your business?

Lindon said...

Miss Billie, No matter how hard you try, you cannot get scripture to say it is ok to keep a minister who is a pedophile in his position as an elder. 1 minute, 1 day or 6 months.

He can be restored to the Body. He can be loved by the Body. He can be forgiven by God with repentance but he cannot be an elder. You just don't want to see it. You want to believe a 'man' so bad that you are willing to ignore scripture to do it.

Your 'teaching' falls on deaf ears. Because you, too are so willing to ignore the hard truth of scripture. They are NOT our teachings, they are NOT our interpretations. It is the Word of God that you do not like. It is very sad.

Jon L. Estes said...

Billie,

You are my kind of blogger.

Keep on and... bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. Luke 6:28 (NKJV)

PTL, He knows our motives.

Jon L. Estes said...

Lindon,

It is the Word of God that you do not like. It is very sad.


What gives you the right to say this to anyone just because they have come down differently in how to love SG through the PW mess? Who are you to say that Billie does not like the word of God or infer God could not led Billie or to forgive and forsake the sin?

You need to quit playing God and stating your opinion as fact or attack.

It (you) are very sad.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

"Billie,

"You are my kind of blogger."


Bwahahahaha!!! No surprise there. Birds of a feather as they say. LOLOLOLOL!!!

eprov said...

all the issues at hand -
I think this is as simple as color preference - I like blue. You like red. When someone draws a line and dares, then we are reduced to preferences. Regardless of the position, there is no one on earth who can lay claim to uncompromising loyalty or devotion. On its face that is absurd. Certainly from a Biblical perspective. There is NO pecking order. Get over it. Give it up. Anything like that smacks of power and control. It ALL belongs to HIM.

johnthebaptist said...

Billie said..

I am not because I know it is only by the grace of God that Satan has not deceived me into believing his lies. I am responding, out of love, to one who has brought up my name again in an attempt to put me down. I can not get any lower than I am when I sit each morning before Jesus Christ who gave His life for me. I do not wish to redeem myself in your eyes but instead I wish to tell you that Jesus Christ loves you and He is calling you to COME to HIM and sit at HIS feet and see yourself, the miserable condition that Satan has led you into. He will led you out if you will follow HIS teachings.


Reply: Thank you for that sweet Hallmark moment.
However, while what you say is part is true, I do believe you believe that you are following God. I commend you on your spending time with Him. I would disagree with you that you are to follow a leader who has disqualified himself. Therein lies the problem. You say you don't follow Steve but only God, yet you don't head God's Word regarding those who are not qualified to lead. You defend a man who says that parts of scripture doesn't apply to him. You defend a preacher who is full of pride and arrogance. Totally against scripture.
I could go on for quite a while but if you can step out of your smug, holier than thou attitude and REALLY seek the face of God, you will see that God's requirements for his Shepherds are far higher, stricter than you think. There is such a thing as disqualifying yourself from ministry...and no, you don't have to just have an extramarital affair to disqualify yourself.
Follow Steve blindly, foolheartedly...see where you end up.
There is a way that seems right unto man, but the end leads to destruction.
There is a broad road and a narrow road. The narrow road is a lot narrower than most people think.

You and Jon think you are being prosecuted for His namesake however it seems you are just bringing it on yourselves.

Being prosecuted for Jesus sake is being attacked for being associated with Jesus.
You and Jon are being confronted because of your ignorance. Big difference.

That is the same thing Steve does. He does something stupid and when people call him on it, he thinks he is being attacked because he is a preacher.

How biblically ignorant can people be?
Please don't you and Jon raise that bar any higher.

I don't know what else to say but may God have mercy on you.

Rowdy Lynn said...

Right now I want to take a pen and shove it in my eye. If I want to hurt as much as my head is now reading the garbage by Jon, I'd rather do it to myself!

Seriously Jon...or should I say Ace or Why....obviously your credibility is so little, I question your qualifications to be a minister. Now go away. Your not wanted here.

johnthebaptist said...

Jon....You are really losing credibility here, with me anyway. It seems that a pastor's time could be used better than arguing here. Your not going to change peoples minds here.

Are you prayed up, studied up, visited up? Everyone saved in your town? Does you need to be spending more time with your family?

Since you are being prosecuted here "for" Christ sake, how about taking it to the streets in your town. Far more Kingdom worthy, don't ya think?

You are making me see that at the next church I pastor, I want to spend my time far more wisely than what I see some pastors do here.

I just hope your congregation isn't being shortchanged.

Maybe there are more hours in the day on the east coast?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

1 - Are the things happening in the deacons meeting being made up?

or

2 - Is one of the deacons speaking about the goings on in the deacons meeting after the fact?

If it is # 1 , then someone needs to stop lying.

If it is # 2 then someone needs to resign.

You tell me.


I assure you, sir, no one is making things up. I have carefully verified this story from several deacons who in turn verified it with several of their deacon brothers. I was waiting to publish the story until they and I were absolutely certain the facts were straight. To my knowledge, they weren't "sworn to secrecy." Why should they be unless they're dealing with something of a particularly sensitive nature? (And this was not.)

For that matter, why shouldn't deacons' meetings be open for any church member to sit in on? Not to participate in but simply to observe the proceedings? I think it would be very educational to see how things work -- sort of like sitting in the gallery and observing a session of congress. Why should they operate in secrecy? This all reminds me of Freemasonry and their secret meetings and rites. I mean, do we really know what they do in those deacons' meetings? ;-) (That's a joke, folks.)

But once again, you've avoided addressing the question, which wasn't how we know about the events that transpired, but what do you think about a deacon chairman and some officers who would essentially lie about something like this? I guess as long as no one knows, it's okay, huh?

johnthebaptist said...

Jon L. Estes said...
Lindon,

It is the Word of God that you do not like. It is very sad.

What gives you the right to say this to anyone just because they have come down differently in how to love SG through the PW mess? Who are you to say that Billie does not like the word of God or infer God could not led Billie or to forgive and forsake the sin?

You need to quit playing God and stating your opinion as fact or attack.

It (you) are very sad.

Reply: Not much grace there Jon. Should you be pointed to your earlier posts about speaking with grace? Or are you like Steve and certain verses don't apply to you because you are a pastor?

They never taught me that kind of theology in school.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Well, everyone. We have another one.

Read about it here.

Rowdy Lynn said...

NASS,

That is really sad.

This is why I believe people like Billie are enablers to corrupt ministers. They are turning a blind eye to them instead of holding them accountable.

Jon L. Estes said...

New BBC Open Forum said...

Bwahahahaha!!! No surprise there. Birds of a feather as they say. LOLOLOLOL!!!


I've noticed.

;-)

MOM4 said...

3rd side said..
"MOM4 said... And there is no "3rd side" - it is true or false, black or white, Scriptural or unscriptural. There are no "grey areas" and no maybe.

I understand why you say that. Legalist often can only view their opinions and all others have to be grouped as one. That is something you have in common with SG. He sees all who are not in 100% agreement as the enemy and fires them or invites them to move to another church. Another side would be to realize how wrong SG is without being spiteful. I promise you, one will never convince a carnal person of the error of their ways with a harsh tone. There are no grey areas when it comes to God’s Word, but in relational situations, there are. The fact that one would see black and white in the approach to solving problems allows me to understand what I consider mean-spirited attitudes. I honestly think we should continue to grieve over our church and get past the anger phase."

I am not "angry" and I am not using a "harsh tone" (although I really don't know how you can hear my "tone"). I am talking about scripture - there is one Word and either you believe it or not. I am just short and to the point in my posts. You just don't know me well enough to judge my intent. And I do recognize your posts from previous threads, I will just have to find them as time permits - perhaps you posted under the same name at that time, we will see.

David Brown said...

Well it just does not go away does it? I hope and pray that those out there that want vicims to quit speaking out or just go away may begin to see why we never will.

Please be in prayer for this victim and his family as well the entire church family at Walnut Grove Baptist. This pastor was there for 20 years. There are some really hurting people right now that are having to deal with this horrible evil.

David Brown
SNAP coordinator for Memphis and West Tennessee
davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500

Lin said...

Estes: What gives you the right to say this to anyone just because they have come down differently in how to love SG through the PW mess? Who are you to say that Billie does not like the word of God or infer God could not led Billie or to forgive and forsake the sin?"

It isn't me saying it. I am just the messenger.

1 Timothy 3
Qualifications for Overseers
1The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

And then there is 1 Corin 5. You guys can ignore this all you want but it still remains truth.

Ironically, had it not been for this blog, PW would have been on staff longer than 6 months. Miss Billie would still have a pedophile minister of prayer.

MOM4 said...

Too many blind eyes in the SBC, but I don't believe that they are all blinded by the angel of light, some choose to turn a blind eye to protect themselves, their positions and their cohorts - then there are the Billies who swallow and follow.

Jon L. Estes said...

I assure you, sir, no one is making things up. I have carefully verified this story from several deacons who in turn verified it with several of their deacon brothers. I was waiting to publish the story until they and I were absolutely certain the facts were straight. To my knowledge, they weren't "sworn to secrecy." Why should they be unless they're dealing with something of a particularly sensitive nature? (And this was not.)

It is not about being sworn to secrecy, it is about confidentiality. The stuff being posted about what happened in that deacons meeting is not anything which should be released to the church public. It is sensitive because of its conflictive nature. Giving this information out does not in any way bring harmony or peace to the body of Christ, as posting it on this blog has shown.

Your last paragraph is a prime example of why this information should not be spoken of outside the deacon body. What has happened is whoever has shared this has put you in a position of calling someone a liar. This is not good for you the deacons or the church. But it does enable the dissenters to remain bitter. I can understand why those who want SG out would like to have such info.

Jon L. Estes said...

John the Baptist --

I was very gracious.

sickofthelies said...

Billie,

SIGH...

I hate myself for even responding to your RIDICULOUS post, but here goes:

You state that we are engaging in gossip.

Please help me to understand how discussing what the pastor has ADMITTED to is gossip. Or dont' you believe even the things he has admitted to?

I think your goal is to try to convince us all that SG did NOTHING wrong by harboring the sexual pervert, PW. I think you would have us believe that the son is the bad guy in all of this.

You are MINIMIZING the CRIME of child sexual abuse everytime you say that SG did nothing wrong and that it is all just gossip.

Furthermore, I think that you are a very sick person. Get some help.

sickofthelies said...

David,

Praying for your son. How is he? Let me know when you can.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Just a reminder of the type of birds with which you say you enjoy flocking. You can just feeeeel the love!

sickofthelies said...

Jon,

EVERY SINGLE TIME you defend SG for still being the pastor at BBC, you contradict yourself.

IF SG had done NOTHING more than harboring a pedaphile for 6 months, he should have left the ministry. He put hundreds, no, thousands of children at risk, and you say it was a horrible thing, and then defend that he is still there.

TSK TSK...

SHUT UP, would you? Or just come right out and state the truth:

HIs hiding the sexual predator did not offend you all that much. Yeah, he shouldn't have done it, but it's not that big of a deal.

EVERYTIME you defend his right to still be the pastor, you are taking the above-stated attitude.

So please, go away. You reopen old wounds to many of us by defending a man that had " compassion" for a man that would sodomize his own child. He had NO compassion for the child..just the pervert.

So..Jon, what does that make YOU?

johnthebaptist said...

Jon L. Estes said...
John the Baptist --

I was very gracious.


Reply: Whew boy. Why doesn't that answer surprise me?

Rowdy Lynn said...

Jon said:

It is not about being sworn to secrecy, it is about confidentiality. The stuff being posted about what happened in that deacons meeting is not anything which should be released to the church public. It is sensitive because of its conflictive nature. Giving this information out does not in any way bring harmony or peace to the body of Christ, as posting it on this blog has shown.


Lynn's response:

Call me crazy here, but since the deacons SERVE the people, the people have the right to know things that are being discussed because ultimately, those decisions affect everyone. My advise to you is back away from the liberal agenda in which I believe you are endorsing.

johnthebaptist said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
Just a reminder of the type of birds with which you say you enjoy flocking. You can just feeeeel the love!


Reply: This is also a reminder why it is VERY important to stay on your medications,and keep regular doctors visits. It is also why you should be under Godly leadership who RIGHTLY divides the Word of God....not arrogantly divides the church.

Lin said...

"It is not about being sworn to secrecy, it is about confidentiality. The stuff being posted about what happened in that deacons meeting is not anything which should be released to the church public. It is sensitive because of its conflictive nature. Giving this information out does not in any way bring harmony or peace to the body of Christ, as posting it on this blog has shown."

Translation: Unity is more important than Biblical truth. But then some of us know that sometimes truth does not bring peace. Jesus told us that. He said He did not come to bring peace but a sword. He even said that His truth would divide families. (Matthew 10)

There is ONLY unity in Christ, in His Word. He prayed that we would be unified in Him. In His Word. That means we just cannot ignore it when it is inconvenient. It is the only unity we have.

John 17

11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself,that they also may be sanctified in truth."

He prayed that we would be as one..sanctified in His truth. His Word is the truth. We have nothing else to go by than the Word.


Sweeping negative truths under the rug is false harmony and is meaningless. But the seeker pastors preach it because it builds churches and brings in big salaries and the seeker 'audience' is none the wiser. They are taught if they disagree, they are 'divisive' so they don't.

If we disagree, we should search the scriptures, pray and let the Holy Spirit teach us.

What is scary is that they end up disagreeing with the Word. The situation with PW could not be any plainer than 1 Timothy for Gaines. Yet, he chose to ignore it and it came down to a loyalty issue to 'him' and not Jesus Christ.

Piglet said...

Jon said

Now, since we all know this is provable fact, thank you...where is the proof on the other accusations, the false teaching. The teaching on the bible being just a guideline. That everyone must submit to his authority...

Piglet says:

Okay, I admit I'm way behind on this blog today - but couldn't pass this up.

I don't know why we have to prove anything to you, Jon. You are not our judge.

But, good grief, the entire congregation heard the man say he ws the final authority in the church - he was preaching on parental authority and took the opportunity to speak on his authority over us.

This was ONE of the first red flags for me.

So I am a witness as are many others who heard the same sermon I heard.

Now, do I need to prove that I exist or that I was actually there or that my hearing is good or that I'm not lying or....

oc said...

Piglet,
Proof, proof, proof. Prove this, prove that. He's not looking for truth. He's just looking for a fight. He knows there are people here that are trying to let the truth be known, and his fun is had in distracting God's people from that purpose.

After all, hasn't it lately been the Jon Estes show? Not much about Christ in his posts, or any encouragement to wounded souls,(which you might expect from a real 'pastor') but more about what a wonderful 'pastor' he is, and what 'ungraceful' people we are. His posts are filled with self congratulations, and his arrogance and condescension exudes from each post.
His aim has been to contrast how righteous he is compared to what wretched, ignorant worms we are.

Proof? This is what he has proven. What an ego maniac.

Just sayin',
oc.

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
Hey, here's a thought! Why not give us your opinion of the "deacon loyalty oath" described in this and the previous topic headings and your thoughts on how the deacon chairman... shall we say... played fast and loose with the truth... about how the "pledge" came to be? What would you think if your deacon officers did something like that? What would you do about it?

And later said ...

I assure you, sir, no one is making things up. I have carefully verified this story from several deacons who in turn verified it with several of their deacon brothers. I was waiting to publish the story until they and I were absolutely certain the facts were straight. To my knowledge, they weren't "sworn to secrecy." Why should they be unless they're dealing with something of a particularly sensitive nature? (And this was not.)

For that matter, why shouldn't deacons' meetings be open for any church member to sit in on? Not to participate in but simply to observe the proceedings? I think it would be very educational to see how things work -- sort of like sitting in the gallery and observing a session of congress. Why should they operate in secrecy?


Tsk, tsk, NASS … don’t you know by now that women (like children, and puppies, and ordinary men not amongst the specially anninted elite of those ordained as bishops and deacons) should leave the important matters of church business to those whose superior minds and spirituality are best equipped to deal with such things? Be careful; your mind might overload!

After all … if we pitiful, unwashed masses knew the truth, there might be conflicts! Much better to have ignorance and harmony than information and people speaking to each other without wit and charm!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

"What has happened is whoever has shared this has put you in a position of calling someone a liar."

Uh... no. Actually, by his words and actions, Chuck Taylor conferred that particular label upon himself. I was merely making an observation. There you go shooting the messenger again!

And by the way, no one "put" me in this position. No one asked me to post any of this information. The decision was mine, but I did have the blessing of my deacon sources after I made sure I had all the facts straight.

And do you really want to argue over this?

secrecy:

1. The quality or condition of being secret or hidden; concealment.
2. The ability or habit of keeping secrets; closeness.

confidentiality:

1. The state of being secret.
2. Discretion in keeping secret information.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Oh, thank you, junk. I know I shouldn't be worrying my pretty little head over manly matters like that! I should be ashamed of myself. Can you forgive me? I momentarily forgot my proper place. I'll be going to scrub the toilet now, after which I'll shackle myself to the stove for the evening. Goodnight, all!

May I ask you one question, kind sir? What's "anninted"?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Then there's this.

oc said...

NASS said,

And do you really want to argue over this?

secrecy:

1. The quality or condition of being secret or hidden; concealment.
2. The ability or habit of keeping secrets; closeness.

confidentiality:

1. The state of being secret.
2. Discretion in keeping secret information.

oc says:
Ha! He's resorted to hiding behind semantics. The very definition of 'is' is now in question. Sounds very 'Clintonesque', so to speak. When I was boxing, we called it a runner. Back pedaling like a big dog, using any desperate measure to stay alive. And using semantics is a desperate measure, to be sure. Maybe Estes is dazed and confused, so have mercy on him, you mean bloggers!

Just sayin'.
oc.

oc said...

NASS asks of Junk,

May I ask you one question, kind sir? What's "anninted"?

oc says:
Hey, I want to be anninted!
Uh, I think I do anyway.

oc said...

What's "anninted"?

Ok Pat. I'd like to buy a vowel. How 'bout a 'z'?

'That's not a vowel, oc, but Vanna, is there a 'z'?'
;)

ezekiel said...

Jon,

It really is all about the WORD.

You have missed most of the months and months of discussion....

Do we really have to keep going over this stuff with you pastors??

Eph 5:11(W)Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;

12for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.

When do you and you alone get to decide what is a good secret and what is a bad one?

Offline. No time...

25+yrs@BBC said...

Jon... FWIW, it's not about you; but like a man who came late to a traffic accident you are trying to convince the eyewitnesses--who are also victims who are still in shock--that they don't know what they are talking about. That's full of grace now, isn't it?

No one here needs to prove anything to you. They belong to another Master and to Him they stand or fall.

**********
Some days I think about the guy with the long beard in shepherd's attire wearing the portable billboard that says:

REPENT!
The end is near!
....

That's what the world needs to hear... that's what the pulpits and pews of this generation need to hear...

BTW... Whoever spots that guy, invite him to BBC for this Sunday... ask him to bring his sign... That about says it all.

I picture Jeremiah with a beard like that...

Jeremiah 2:7f "I brought you into a bountiful country, To eat its fruit and its goodness. But when you entered, you defiled My land And made My heritage an abomination.

The priests did not say, 'Where is the LORD?' And those who handle the law did not know Me; The rulers also transgressed against Me; The prophets prophesied by Baal, And walked after things that do not profit."

Therefore I will yet bring charges against you," says the LORD, "And against your children's children I will bring charges.

For pass beyond the coasts of Cyprus and see, Send to Kedar and consider diligently, And see if there has been such a thing.
Has a nation changed its gods, Which are not gods?

But My people have changed their Glory For what does not profit.

Be astonished, O heavens, at this, And be horribly afraid; Be very desolate," says the LORD. "For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns -- broken cisterns that can hold no water...

They made his land waste; His cities are burned, without inhabitant...

Have you not brought this on yourself, In that you have forsaken the LORD your God When He led you in the way?...

Can a virgin forget her ornaments, Or a bride her attire? Yet My people have forgotten Me days without number."
______

Commentary: We live among a generation of christians in America that is so corrupt, so materialistic, so cosmetically shallow, so focused upon the external, so desiring of performance and spotlight...
that the agenda seems to be to import the world into the church so as to put cotton into the spiritual ears of the few who used to hear to drown out the repetitive calls from the Word and the Spirit to holiness.

Come just as you are... stay just as you are. We'll help you feel right at home...

continuallyamazed said...

3rdside
You so totally mistook what I read. I did not at anytime say SG was lost. I was talking about the fact that he was preaching unity at any cost, no matter the Truth. The only comparison I made was to Jesus not being unified with the religious leadership. If you can honestly Sunday by Sunday sit under a "carnal christian" and not realize that eventually false teaching takes place simply because a carnal christian will always try to "justify" his/her actions, then maybe you need to do some examining of your own. I cannot nor will I sit under a "carnal" pastor. Nor will I allow my children to be under that authority. I will not sit under a pastor who set about in one sermon to change the very ministry of Jesus.

I answered your questions for specifics. I gave you several. There are many more. I believe all you want to do is "argue" or "justify" your position on staying in a church where the whole Word of God is no longer relevant. Whatever the case maybe, there is no need to respond to me, it's between you and the Lord.

Ms. Tapp--you, ma'am are deceived, because you've chosen to not listen to the Holy Spirit.

Mr. Estes - it really is time for you to go and minister to your "own flock". Don't come on here telling us now that you've spoken to SG. Honestly, you're prior musings leave a little something to be desired in the way of being "believeable."

oc said...

Glad ya'll showed up. I was starting to play 'Wheel of Fortune' with myself, and I was losing!

Just sayin',
oc.

Lindon said...

"Commentary: We live among a generation of christians in America that is so corrupt, so materialistic, so cosmetically shallow, so focused upon the external, so desiring of performance and spotlight...
that the agenda seems to be to import the world into the church so as to put cotton into the spiritual ears of the few who used to hear to drown out the repetitive calls from the Word and the Spirit to holiness.

Come just as you are... stay just as you are. We'll help you feel right at home..."

Amen. It would not surprise me in the least to see formerly persecuted Chinese missionaries in the US bringing us the full Gospel message. We have a generation in churches all over the US that has never heard it.

Junkster said...

oc said...
What's "anninted"?

Ok Pat. I'd like to buy a vowel. How 'bout a 'z'?

'That's not a vowel, oc, but Vanna, is there a 'z'?'
;)


oc, it looks like you were thinking of the word "annizzled", which is "street" for annointed. Part of the new vocabularity of the contemporarity. Word, dog!

Cakes said...

"Leaving PW on staff for 6 months was wrong on all counts but this does make SG a false teacher."

Well, you split those hairs--if he had been a school principal, he'd be lucky to get future employment as a clerk. Who would place trust in the words and guidance, pertaining to one's deepest core faith, of someone devoid of simple common sense and awareness? Like, what a boob. Especially when the response to getting caught is to mobilize a campaign of circling the wagons and alienating the devastated and injured from the church. Congregationally approved my...

No, I wouldn't even accept driving directions from this "padre."

sheeplessatbbc said...

25+yrs@BBC said...
If you havn't checked the link provided by Psalm 43:3... you really should read the recap that is at that site:

http://stopbaptistpredators.org/scandals/bellevue.html

11:36 PM, July 11, 2007



Just catching up after being away a few days. I know this has been posted by Psalm 43:3 and 25+yrs@BBC, but it really is worth the review. Be sure to read each topic in detail.

Billie Tapp, Jon Estes, Deacon Pruett, and everyone else with their heads in the sand, read, weep and ask God to reveal the truth to you.

There is nothing Itty-Bitty about any of this.

SNAKES IN THE PARK!!

concernedSBCer said...

25+: Your 9:01 post was wonderful. I'll wear a sandwich board! But, do you think they'll sic security on me....security with handcuffs???

Sheepless: I'll join you in your warning....

SNAKES IN THE PARK! Come armed with the Word and put on the whole armor of God.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Déjà vu the "amen" dream...

25+yrs@BBC said...

Concernsbcer...

I'd think carefully about wearing a sign with the "R" word on it ("Repent!")...

The "R" word is rare today in our Christian culture. It is absent from over 95% of "Gospel tracts"...

How many professing Christians can go to their churches months, perhaps years, and never hear a sermon that uses it in a way that is not self-serving for the human messenger??

The "R" word evokes anger from the lost and the intense anger from the backslidden... They don't want to hear it... much less read it...

BBC may be becoming a lot like Jerusalem in this regard. The city of the prophets strangely became the persecutor of them...

Those with the right degrees at Jerusalem genuinely thought that they were doing God a favor by stoning many of the prophets... and crucifying our Lord.

The "R" word becomes an offense for those who think they've just made mistakes... Mistakes can be corrected... The "R" word is for sin... sin that cannot be corrected by mere human effort... sin that needs atonement... sin that deserves the wrath of God... sin that calls to heaven for judgment... sin that cannot be covered by lies, misinformation, time, death, or the grave.

The "R" word is always relevant this side of Eden... There are no perfect gardens this side of heavenly Zion...

Meanwhile, the "R" word is an integral part of the stigma that comes to those who bear the authentic Gospel... Without the "R" word for the messenger's own life, there is only hypocrisy... Without the "R" word in the message of the Gospel, there is only counterfeit vanity... Without the "R" word there is only the illusion that things really aren't that bad...

Without the "R" word, accompanied by the unaltered Word of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit, those around us are left only with the reality of the "P" word...

"Perish."

oc said...

25+

AMEN!!!!!

Lin said...

25+ wrote: The "R" word becomes an offense for those who think they've just made mistakes... Mistakes can be corrected... The "R" word is for sin... sin that cannot be corrected by mere human effort... sin that needs atonement... sin that deserves the wrath of God... sin that calls to heaven for judgment... sin that cannot be covered by lies, misinformation, time, death, or the grave."

Wow. What a good point. If we call them 'mistakes' instead of sin then it makes sense that we would think WE could correct them.


"Without the "R" word, accompanied by the unaltered Word of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit, those around us are left only with the reality of the "P" word...

"Perish." "

Amen.

You know something I was thinking about the other day were those horrible 8 years of Clinton. Remember how it went...if anyone pointed out his lack of integrity or sin, his supporters pointed back at them saying that others had sin, too, so they should not cast stones. This arguement worked! Many Christians bought into it and we are even seeing the fruit of it played out everywhere. (I know it was not knew with Clinton but he just perfected it and gave it traction because of his SBC roots he promoted)

Christians really fell down on this arguement and it gained traction. Now we are seeing this taught in our pulpits more agressively. (It has always been there but not so much across the board as it is now)

I say this to point out that with this view, there can be no conviction ergo no repentence.

With this view, who could preach the whole Word of God? No one.

So, we just call it 'mistakes'.

Rowdy Lynn said...

New BBC Open Forum said...

Déjà vu the "amen" dream...

11:23 AM, July 14, 2007


Not just the amen dream NASS...but just about everything Benny Hinn is doing is the same garbage Gaines and his goons are doing!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yeah I love the fact that Hinn is playing up that unless he gets so much money his show will go off the air. Since he is making $100-200 Million A YEAR, Surely he can afford the costs as is. What we have here is in essence, Extortion.

Junkster said...

25+yrs@BBC said...
The "R" word is rare today in our Christian culture. It is absent from over 95% of "Gospel tracts"...

Has there been a study on that to come up with that statistic? :) (Just kidding ... from what I've seen, it sounds about right, if not even more.)

Excellent post, 25+. I think that would be a good sermon ... "The 'R' Word". Would look intriguing on a church sign, like this.

Mary said...

25+,

Your 12:14 PM post was spot on! You summed up so much of what is wrong in our churches today.

AMEN & AMEN!

Been Redeemed said...

I have been out of pocket for a while and just caught up on the blog. I am dismayed at the addition of another "pastor child predator". I am also wondering how much Steve Gaines will send him for his defense? Will Steve Marcum deliver yet anoher check out of sacred money to support and defend yet another sin (oops, there's that dirty word we are not supposed to use)????

Mary said...

Lin,

Your comments about the Clinton years made me cringe because you are so right.

And just think how proud we should be to have two former presidents from our Southern Baptist Churches -- Clinton and Carter. (I'm just kidding even though there's really nothing funny about either of those two. There are an embarrassment.)

Mary

Psalm 43:3 said...

Interesting link for article in today's paper:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/local/article/0,2845,MCA_25340_5628830,00.html

New BBC Open Forum said...

This is "psalm's" link.

Rowdy Lynn said...

Been Redeemed said...

I have been out of pocket for a while and just caught up on the blog. I am dismayed at the addition of another "pastor child predator". I am also wondering how much Steve Gaines will send him for his defense? Will Steve Marcum deliver yet anoher check out of sacred money to support and defend yet another sin (oops, there's that dirty word we are not supposed to use)????

1:41 PM, July 14, 2007

Been Redeemed....

I was watching Hannity & Colmes on Fox News last night and they did a piece on another minister in Alabama who pled guilty to molesting his 3 kids. Guess what type of punishment this punk got? PROBATION! He was looking at 3 Consecutive 15 year terms. Instead, the judge agreed with the moonbat prosecutor and gave the guy only probation.

If thats not a telling sign of how far down society has fallen, I don't know what is.

Lin said...

Mary wrote: And just think how proud we should be to have two former presidents from our Southern Baptist Churches -- Clinton and Carter."

And they are not going away. Check this out: http://www.newbaptistcovenant.org/

Rowdy Lynn said...

Lin said...

Mary wrote: And just think how proud we should be to have two former presidents from our Southern Baptist Churches -- Clinton and Carter."

And they are not going away. Check this out: http://www.newbaptistcovenant.org/

2:48 PM, July 14, 2007


Lets see....

Jimmy Carter - Traitor to America by supporting Radical islamists who want to destroy the US

Bill Clinton - Wants the government to do everything instead of encouraging people to work

Yeah, with Baptists like that...who needs enemies

Lily said...

Just now able to "read up". When you read several days worth of posts at one time, some things stand out more than a frequent, kind of "keep up" read.

Brother Estes true colors come out even stronger. He appears to be the common variety troll, but with lots of perfume and flashy clothes.

Poor Miss Billie, may she get past her own piousness and see the Truth.

How powerful the "R" word!!!

Snake infestation!!! BEWARE

Churchmouse said...

Since we are talking presidents, some of you will be interested in this:

Governor Mike Huckabee is quoted in Time magazine:

"Our church in Little Rock is very similar to Rick Warren's. We've gone from 25 members to about 5,000 in eight years. Our focus has been to minister to people who were otherwise neglected. We built a ministry center before we even had a sanctuary. We held our services in warehouses until a year or two ago." The center contains a range of faith-based initiatives: welfare to work, job training, programs for recovering alcoholics and drug addicts, a food bank. "We are a multicultural, multiracial congregation, with rich and poor," Huckabee says. "I play the bass in the Praise band." SOURCE: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1599708,00.html

Another article in Baptist Press states : "Since 1999, Purpose-Driven ministries have honored four to six churches each year that have shown excellence in adapting the Purpose-Driven paradigm to their congregation. With thousands of churches having participated in the “40 Days of Purpose” discipleship program in recent months, Purpose-Driven decided to honor 79 churches this year. Each church received a check for $1,000.

The Southern Baptist congregations receiving a 2004 Church Health Award were:
The Southern Baptist congregations receiving a 2004 Church Health Award were:

Bay Area Fellowship, Corpus Christi, Texas

Brookwood Community Church, Greenville, S.C.

Centro Familiar Cristiano Betesda, Orange, Calif.

The Church at Rock Creek, Little Rock, Ark."

SOURCE: http://www.baptistpress.net/bpnews.asp?ID=18346

You may ask yourself, "What does this have to do with his running for president?" Well, if he were to be elected, and Rick Warren was pushing his church based health care network at the United Nations, (as he explained to us a few weeks ago on Fox).....

You take can take it from here. Please don't ask this weary old churchmouse, "who would be better than Huckabee?"

Junkster said...

Rowdy Lynn said...
Yeah, with Baptists like that...who needs enemies?

At first I thought you were going to say "With Baptists like that ... who needs Methodists?"

:)

Rowdy Lynn said...

Don't worry about Huckabee, I don't think he really has a legitimate shot at getting the GOP nomination.


And BTW, going back to the debate about Gaines greed speech, I heard a sermon by someone today who preached on I John Ch 2 and brought up Ananais and Sapphira. This guy has it right. God punished them not for greed but for lying to God. so :-P to Gaines and Jon.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lynn's link.

Lin said...

Interesting article about pastors and 'salt'

http://www.batteredsheep.com/saltless.html

gopher said...

Bellevue Today 7/15/07:

Notice of Information Meeting

There will be an information meeting on Sunday , July 29 at 4:00 p.m. in the Fellowship Hall, During this meeting, members can ask questions they may have pertaining to the Annual Financial Report.

Note that there will also be other leadership meetings beginning at 4:45 so the meeting will have to be short?

concernedSBCer said...

25+ said "I'd think carefully about wearing a sign with the "R" word on it ("Repent!")..."

Hey, I'm up for it. To live is Christ, to die is gain.

sheeplessatbbc said...

Oh my, another grinding 45 minute meeting, how difficult it must be on leadership to keep their attention spam sooooooooooo long!

We certainly wouldn't want tooooooooooooooooo long a meeting..the "leaders" might get restless.

Oh, maybe the facts would get confused, twisted..........BBC tithers might ask some difficult questions of corporate Bellevue, Bryan Miller might get words confused and repeat the wrong word several times........

WHAT A JOKE!!!!!!!!!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Interesting article.

"When the layman called one of the references back, he was told, 'He's an excellent pastor and he preaches great messages. He just has that one problem that he says he's dealt with and put behind him.'"

Déjà vu, Bellevue. Wonder if SG will give PW the same glowing job reference? {shudder}

Been Redeemed said...

"When the layman called one of the references back, he was told, “‘He’s an excellent pastor and he preaches great messages. He just has that one problem that he says he’s dealt with and put behind him.’”
"Déjà vu, Bellevue. Wonder if SG will give PW the same glowing job reference? {shudder}"

Or is that the kind of reference the search committee received about Steve Gaines? - if they even checked??

I know one man who gave the search committee all the needed on Steve Gaines and they turned their back on him and never checked it out. That says a lot about the sincerity, honesty and motives of the search committee.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Another rumor confirmed...

Jim Whitmire reportedly announced at GBC this morning that he is going to FBC Jacksonville (Florida) to be their minister of music. I'm still trying to confirm the date of his last Sunday. (I was told August 11th, but that's not a Sunday.)

gmommy said...

This info was in the link Nass provided.....hope we can now consider this "chartered territory?"

• If a law has been broken, you must report it. Some may disagree based on the sanctity of confessions, but the Catholic Church is reaping the consequences of such an approach.
The kingdom of Christ ultimately is best served by openness and honesty

• If guilt is admitted or determined, make sure the person gets the professional help he needs.

Sexual abuse is not easily treated and should not be attempted except by qualified professionals.

Also, alert the office in your state convention office that handles ministerial referrals to be sure the person's resume is not sent to another church.

New BBC Open Forum said...

gmommy,

What a novel concept... NOT! Uncharted waters, indeed.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jim Whitmire's last Sunday at GBC is August 19th.

Rowdy Lynn said...

gmommy said...

This info was in the link Nass provided.....hope we can now consider this "chartered territory?"

• If a law has been broken, you must report it. Some may disagree based on the sanctity of confessions, but the Catholic Church is reaping the consequences of such an approach.
The kingdom of Christ ultimately is best served by openness and honesty


The diocese in Los Angeles just shelled out $660 Million to settle lawsuits stemming from abuse from priests.

Lin said...

From the article. Note how the pastor was treated when he refused to give reference for abusive staffer:

Because most Baptists have no system of ministerial ethical review or power to rescind ordination, we are vulnerable to terrible life-shattering situations,” said retired pastor Michael Olmsted of Springfield, Mo., who twice in his career had to intervene when abusers were discovered in his church.


***When he later refused to provide positive references for two pastors who had ethical failures, he “was treated as though I didn’t believe God forgives sin,” Olmsted said. “A good-old-boy system that rewards people for denominational service and recommends them to other churches, while ignoring immoral and abusive behavior in our churches neither honors God nor represents the God of grace.”***

imaresistor said...

Lynn...

Couldn't catch the name? Dr. Jerry who?

Yuri G. Yancy said...

Jim Whitmire was at BBC for 30 plus years and he is gone with no recognition. This is wrong and I don't believe things at BBC will ever be right until Jim is treated right by our present administration.

concernedSBCer said...

Did anyone go to the meeting?

MOM4 said...

Yuri G. Yancy said...
Jim Whitmire was at BBC for 30 plus years and he is gone with no recognition. This is wrong and I don't believe things at BBC will ever be right until Jim is treated right by our present administration.

4:45 PM, July 15, 2007

Nothing will ever be right at BBC until the present administration is gone - all of them.

New BBC Open Forum said...

mom4,

Depends on how you define "the administration." If you mean the whole ministerial staff, I'd disagree. There are still plenty of honorable people on staff. But there does need to be a good housecleaning starting at the top IMO.

MOM4 said...

NASS,
I am only talking about the administration that is bringing BBC into apostacy - primarily the upper crust of administration at that. There are several ministers there who I hold in very high regard as worthy of their calling. None of the true ministers are in administrative positions that I am aware of.

New BBC Open Forum said...

concernedsbcer,

What meeting?

New BBC Open Forum said...

mom4,

Of course. Thank you. :-)

32yrs@bbc said...

Jim Whitmire is mightily gifted of the Lord but more than that he is a man after God's own heart. When he arrived at Bellevue, he came as a servant and humbled himself under the mighty hand of God until God, in His perfect timing, exalted him. Tommy Lane was graciously given time to reach retirement - not pushed out before he was ready. That is the difference in the former administration and the present one.

First Baptist Jacksonville's gain is our loss. May the Lord bless Jim and Linda Whitmire as they obey His calling to this new ministry.

concernedSBCer said...

Nass: Sorry I mis-read the date! The "Informational Meeting" is next week!
:)

concernedSBCer said...

Dr. Whitmire leaving the Memphis area makes me very sad. I have to wonder about the future of the Tree and PP. It's such a commitment and investment of time....a leader has to have the vision for huge productions like that.

socwork said...

Jon L. Estes said...
Billie,

You are my kind of blogger.


Seriously? I've been on vacation, and I've been reading and trying to catch up. I must say I did do a double take when I read this.

You are known by the company you keep I guess. (1 Cor 15:33)

socwork said...

Rowdy Lynn said...
Right now I want to take a pen and shove it in my eye.


You too??? ;)

sickofthelies said...

Hmmm,

Today, at Faith Baptist, I saw the wife and children of one of the deacon officers, not gonna say which one...

I found it puzzling.

gmommy said...

Need some clarification...
JW is going to the church that has a link on our blog???
The one that has had all the problems?????
Hasn't Jim been thru enough?????

Cakes said...

I met Jim Whitmire many years ago as a best man in a friend's wedding. He was truly a minister to my friend and his bride; it wasn't just another gig. I remember bing moved by his gentleness, patience and humility.

I really liked that dude.

Why do so many churches abandon their own?

oc said...

Socwork Winfrey,

Really good to see you!
I'm really needing that car about now! :)

Just sayin',
oc.

gmommy said...

SOTL<
Not the 1st time they were there BUT can you blame them.....?

concernedSBCer said...

Cakes: Hi!
I don't think the church abandoned JW; I think the leadership did.

gmommy said...

Following Cakes' thought of the church abandoning their own....

I have been unmarried at BBC for over 9 years now....I was there as a married woman for many years before.

I have visited River Oaks Presbty.
church 5 times now.
Sad to say I have felt more welcome and comfortable there these few times than I have at BBC for the past 9.5 yars.

The sermons have convicted my heart to repentance and I have such a desire to be pure before the Lord.
The worship is reverant,the hymns...sung from a hymn book...all focus on Christ.
Nothing has been strange doctrine or slanted.
I haven't heard anything about the dreaded major difference the Baptists have with the Presbty...

There are no bells and whistles to distract so all the focus is on the Holiness of Christ,His sacrifice...no focus on man.....that phase itself has a new meaning to me.

The SS classes are not set up to be social outlets/clicks...I feel like I am finally getting the Christian education my kids got!!!

Please don't be leary of RO....
I have been so blessed.

Rowdy Lynn said...

imaresistor said...

Lynn...

Couldn't catch the name? Dr. Jerry who?

4:27 PM, July 15, 2007


Ima...I'm a bit confused as to what your referring to. If your talking about who Ellendale Baptist is about to call....his name is Dr. Jerry Harmon.

Rowdy Lynn said...

Did anyone watch the 5 O'Clock news on Channel 3 today? THey had a story about a situation over at G.E. Patterson's church? Apparently they might be taking a page out of Bellevue's book. Even having Security tell members not to talk to the media in the parking lot!

imaresistor said...

rowdy lynn,

Lynn had posted a link. I went to it and it was a sermon by someone. I couldn't make out the name and was just asking for clarification as to who the speaker was.

Sorry for the confusion...

Ima

MOM4 said...

concernedSBCer said...
Dr. Whitmire leaving the Memphis area makes me very sad. I have to wonder about the future of the Tree and PP. It's such a commitment and investment of time....a leader has to have the vision for huge productions like that.

8:13 PM, July 15, 2007

It will end up like the children's ministry - Steve Gaines said that when all the teachers left after August 11th, they would just hire new teachers. That says a lot about the "ministry" aspect for the children. There are hirelings in the orchestra already and they even ran ads to hire singers for the last MPP. I guess that is well and good as far as the administration goes, until the money runs out because these hirelings do not give their tithes and offerings into the ministry. I assume Steve Gaines thinks that the $20 million he has his hands into is an endless supply of cash. Maybe they didn't think that far ahead.....

Churchmouse said...

So much for Jim Whitmire's retirement....8^)

"Folks, these are Bellevue's glory days," Jim used to tell us. Just the way he said that, we were reminded that they would not last forever.

Bellevue's glory days--when Jim would strike out across the country with three rickity busses loaded with our youth--on their choir tours. Those old busses would always break down. We knew this as they pulled out of the west portico with our children, but we trusted God, and we trusted you, Jim. Thank you, Jim for these wonderful memories.

Bellevue's glory days--when Sunday nights were so sweet: The men's choir often sang to us. On Sunday nights, we got to sing the old gospel hymns, and sometimes there was a gospel quartet. Dr. Rogers would preach in a tone that was almost conversational. The night would end with Jim leading us in "Now, the day is over, night is drawing nigh..." as Dr. Rogers reminded us that the God of Israel sleeps not, neither does he slumber.

Jim Whitmire, I trusted you with my precious daughters on the night the earthquake had been predicted to hit the MidSouth. One was on the fourth row from the top of the "Singing Christmas Tree", the other sat underneath in the orchestra pit. We trusted God to protect us all.

Bellevue's glory days-- when the music from Bellevue Baptist drew thousands from many states to the Passion Play and the Singing Christmas Tree. Then, the 'Magesty of Christmas' would remind us that our God is Holy. Dr. Rogers would rread the Christmas Story to our children.

Jim, you loved Dr. Rogers as his pastor and your friend.

Jim, we love you. We will always remember you-- wearing your King Whit Burger King crown on the choir tour with our kids; your telling us the history of the hymns we sang, your smile and greeting when we met you in the hallways of Bellevue, and standing before us in your tux with your baton raised.

"Folks, you may not realize it, but we are living in the glory days."
-Jim Whitmire

Thank you, Jim.

Jon L. Estes said...

socwork said...

Jon L. Estes said...
Billie,

You are my kind of blogger.

Seriously? I've been on vacation, and I've been reading and trying to catch up. I must say I did do a double take when I read this.

You are known by the company you keep I guess. (1 Cor 15:33)

8:59 PM, July 15, 2007


I couldn't agree more. Although I do not know Billie, I appreciated what she said. There is a lot of agreeable company on this blog, I just happen to not be in that mixture.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

I determined that the only way that I could actually get back to Memphis would be to ship myself via FedEx. So, as I sit here in this box trying to avoid choking on these styrofoam peanuts, I find myself thinking some abnormally profound thoughts, probably due to the lack of oxygen. A few of these are:

- if freedom only comes at a great cost, why isn’t it called costdom?
- if the moon were really made of cheese, wouldn’t outer space stink by now?
- it is possible to make a shopping cart without a bad wheel?
-‘Cabbage’ is not my favorite scratch-n-sniff scent
- if the homeless will work for food, will the foodless eat for work?
- do all men who visit public restrooms really trust using the doorknob as they exit?
- why do cage fighters thank God after they choke their opponent unconscious?
- is a cannibal’s family reunion considered a buffet?
- why don’t plumbers just wear really long shirts, or better yet, ‘one-sies’ ?
- I don’t trust people who don’t lick cheeto dust off their fingers
- why doesn’t the sand box at the park have a cat-proof fence?
- my third marriage didn’t involve as much PDA as my recent border search
- why cant they employ traffic light beggars at toll booths?
- if the good die young, then how do you explain Hugh Hefner?
- a Speedo and flip flops are not the best apparel when picking blackberries
- MPD lingo: ‘ freeze’- stop so we can pepper spray you and beat you mercilessly with our batons
- MPD lingo: ‘carry on’ - walk away so we can pepper spray you and beat you mercilessly with out batons
- James Carville may not be considered handsome by most...but he’d be a Greek god at the Loney family reunion
- why cant terrorists ever take a decent picture?
- Zoo-scented Glade probably wouldn’t be a big seller
- why don’t they let death row inmates smoke?
- beauty is in the eye of the beholder...until the beholder is slapped with a restraining order , delivered by two officers who kick more than a chorus line hopped up on Mountain Dew
- Tornado chasing should not be done on foot
- flavored fireworks is probably not a good idea
- Turret’s syndrome sufferers do not make good Monks
- Monks do not make good auctioneers
- Auctioneers do not make good phone operators
- Never play the game "Smell my Finger", with a stranger
- why didn’t I use the restroom before I got in this box?

William T. Loney, MD

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon,

Please don't come here again and start taking swipes at the people who post here. No one's making you come here. You have no dog in this fight. Stop trying to pick fights with the people here. We have enough to deal with right here without being attacked from without. This blog, contrary to what you seem to want to make it, is not about you. Sorry if that's not charming or witty enough for you, but it's the best I can do today.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Good to hear from you, Dr. Loney! But how are you blogging from inside that box? You must have the world's biggest laptop battery!

Did you know that some of those "Styrofoam" peanuts are actually a starch-based product that will totally dissolve if you get them wet? They're safe to eat, and if you want to get rid of them, just dump them in water and watch the magic!

Jon L. Estes said...

New,

Why is it a swipe at someone when I basically restate what someone said to me?

If what I said was a swipe, then would it not mean that what socwork said would also be considered a swipe?

Churchmouse said...

Dr. Loney,
I used to know some Loneys, but they spelled their name with two o's.
Dr. Loney, may I be so intrusive as to ask you if you are a deacon?
I just got this crazy idea in my head.....

socwork said...

Did you know that some of those "Styrofoam" peanuts are actually a starch-based product that will totally dissolve if you get them wet? They're safe to eat, and if you want to get rid of them, just dump them in water and watch the magic!

Really? Hm... now where can I find some of those peanuts around the office? I must try this.

sheeplessatbbc said...

Churchmouse said...

"Folks, these are Bellevue's glory days," Jim used to tell us.


Churchmouse,

What beautiful and precious words about Bellevue and Jim.

How wonderful it has been to be a part of Bellevue's glory days for 35 years, I guess I did think they would last forever.

I can remember Dr. Rogers saying Sunday nights are special/sweet at Bellevue. Those were wonderful times, I feel so blessed to have been able to call Dr. Pollard & Dr. Rogers my pastors and to have Tommy Lane and Jim Whitmire as my ministers of music.

Three precious men in Heaven now and one going to carry on God's work in another city.

We will miss you Jim. Thank you for all you have meant to us. We Love you!

WatchingHISstory said...

nass

good read here

http://www.openheaven.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=5727&PN=1

Dr. Bill Loney said...

Nass said:
"Good to hear from you, Dr. Loney! But how are you blogging from inside that box? You must have the world's biggest laptop battery!"

The good DR. says:
Stop it Nass...you're killing the magic! Of course, it could be said I did that with the 'smell my finger' comment, but let's not split bananas.

Nass said:
"Did you know that some of those "Styrofoam" peanuts are actually a starch-based product that will totally dissolve if you get them wet? They're safe to eat, and if you want to get rid of them, just dump them in water and watch the magic!"

Good DR. says,
Do you seriously think that a man who has eaten things that make vultures queasy has not already sampled and eaten nearly all of these 'albino cheese puffs from heaven'? C'mon!!

ATTENTION:
Upstairs Garage Apartment Landlady... fire up the Fondue pot, Bill Loney (and about 5000 other parcels) has been cleared for landing!!! Look out Memphis, cause Bill's back...CANKLES BEWARE!!! 'The Canklenator' has returned, and I plan on taking questionable and often dangerous medical procedures to a new stratosphere!!! (or at least I plan on providing a quite painful but quick and relatively inexpensive procedure whereby liposuction is used to extract excess fat from the area between the bottom of the calve muscles and upper ankle, or in the latin,
a condition known "maximus canklous", thus providing a more contoured and shapely appearance...chicken wing reduction also available)

This July...Coming to a neighborhood (with undoubtedly low property values and high foreclosure rates) near you...It's...

LONEY...THE SEQUEL

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
Did you know that some of those "Styrofoam" peanuts are actually a starch-based product that will totally dissolve if you get them wet?

Dr. Loney probably used this FedEx service .

But if he used FedEx 2 Day delivery instead of Overnight, he will probably figure out on his own that the peanuts dissolvewhen they get wet.

32yrs@bbc said...

Churchmouse,

Thank you for that sweet tribute to Jim Whitmire. It brought back a lot of great memories, and tears to my eyes. Those of us who were around for the "glory days" can appreciate what you wrote, and we can thank the Lord for the blessing of being part of those special days. Jim knew those days would not last and wanted us to enjoy and be thankful for them.

Everything changes with time except for our unchangeable God.
"I am the Lord; I change not." Everything passes away except for His HOLY Word. "The grass withers,
the flower fades, but the Word of our God shall stand forever"
(Isa. 40:8). In order to have a measure of peace during these turbulent times and as we face an unknown future, we must keep our eyes on the One who changes not and on His HOLY Word that endures forever.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

"If what I said was a swipe, then would it not mean that what socwork said would also be considered a swipe?"

Are you really an adult? Because that sounded like something an 8-year-old would say. "But, mom! She pushed me first!"

Socwork, play nice with Jon now. Because his days here are numbered.

socwork said...

Socwork, play nice with Jon now. Because his days here are numbered.

Oh, but I have a better idea.

Socwork won't be "playing" at all.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Speaking of FedEx...

Check out what this guy did. Dr. Loney, you may get some ideas for furnishing your garage apartment here.

Jon L. Estes said...

New,

You are right, it matters not what another person says, I am only accountable for what I say.

Forgive me for taking a swipe.

all2jesus said...

Dr. Loney,

A few more imponderables while you're munching curly ricecakes and waitin' for the big drop:

- If you have a cold hot pocket, is it just a pocket?
- Do penguins have knees?
- How did Walt Disney figure out how to make people pay to stand in lines all day?
- When the French swear do they say "pardon my English?"
- Why does someone believe you when you say there are four billion stars, but have to personally check when you say the paint is wet?
- Why does every Abraham Lincoln impersonator sound the same, even though there are no known audio recordings of the man?
- If ketchup is good on french fries, how come it isn't good on mashed potatoes?
- Can a cross-eyed teacher control his pupils?
- If you only have one eye, are you blinking or winking?
- Why does Sea World have a seafood restaurant?
- Why don't you ever hear about gruntled employees?
- Why is someone who plays the piano called a pianist, but someone who drives a race car not called a racist?

- Why do flammable and inflammable mean the same thing? Why do thaw and unthaw mean the same thing?
- Why are there Braille dots on the keypad of drive-up ATMs?
- Can atheists get insurance for acts of God?
- If a Man is talking in the forest and there is no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?
- Why did Kamikaze pilots wear helmets?
- Could someone ever get addicted to counseling? If so, how could you treat them?


gmommy said...

Where has Charlie Fox been lately????

Hey Charlie,
Hope you are OK!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

David Brown's son has been in Iraq only a short time, but he's already making his daddy proud!

In this article, David's son, Kevin, is referred to by his first name, Paul. He was one of the rescuers, not the injured Air Force broadcaster whose last name is Brown, too. Kevin was not injured!

Rowdy Lynn said...

Point #2 on Gaines Sunday night sermon:

2. God's Opponents EXHIBIT selfish PRIDE.


Mr. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle. Mr. Kettle, Mr. Pot.

concernedSBCer said...

Dr. Loney: How wonderful to know you are on your way back to the Mid-South! NOW we can plan a spam cook-out to welcome you back!

Lin said...

"2. God's Opponents EXHIBIT selfish PRIDE."

1 John 2

15Do not love the world nor the things in the world If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

Rowdy Lynn said...

Lin,

Here is the scripture Gaines was pointing towards....

Acts 5:17-18

17Then the high priest and all his associates, who were members of the party of the Sadducees, were filled with jealousy. 18They arrested the apostles and put them in the public jail

Matthew 27:17-18

17So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, "Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?" 18For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him.

Acts 13:43-45

43When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
44On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying.

socwork said...

44On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying.

rowdy lynn, I might have read your post wrong, but was SG comparing himself with the apostles on this point? As in, those who oppose God (a.k.a. opposing SG) are full of selfish pride and jealous?

Rowdy Lynn said...

I am not sure off the top of my head. I'll have to go back and view the tape. But on the surface, given his record of twisting scripture, it is possible.

Proverbs 12:22 said...

There is something wrong with a man who goes to see the movie Walk the Line 5-6 times as SG has admitted doing. He apparently enjoys wallowing in the sins of divorce, marital infidelity, drunkenness and massive drug use.

Anyone else agree?

Proverbs 12:22 said...

There is something wrong with a man who goes to see the movie Walk the Line 5-6 times as SG has admitted doing. He apparently enjoys wallowing in the sins of divorce, marital infidelity, drunkenness and massive drug use.

Anyone else agree?

concernedSBCer said...

Lynn and Soc: Please explain more...I'm having trouble even getting the connection.

Lin said...

1 John 2 (NASB)

26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to **deceive you.

27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

29If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Please prayerfully read all of 1 John (which would be awesome to see taught more but you can see why it is not taught in context more...)

But note these verses. All who are in Him are anointed..vs. 27.

Notice verse 29...it uses the word 'practice' righteouness..denoting a 'lifestyle.

Lin said...

proverbs, there is a very large
church near here that closed on Sunday morning so the 'audience' could go see Evan Almighty together.

You see, anyone who finds that disturbing or the movie Blasphemous toward our Thrice Holy God, is mean spirited, judgemental and lacking in 'grace'.

Yet, I fear for those who think they can 'know Christ' through such an activity.

Again...1 John 2

15Do not love the world nor the things in the world If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Rowdy Lynn said...

concernedSBCer said...

Lynn and Soc: Please explain more...I'm having trouble even getting the connection.

5:48 PM, July 16, 2007

concerned,

My point was that Gaines was preaching 2. God's Opponents EXHIBIT selfish PRIDE.

This is another example of Gaines "Do as I Say, not as I do". If he's going to preach that, perhaps he needs to look in the mirror at himself as well.

Sorry for the confusion.

gmommy said...

Proverbs,
I agree, and have a problem with Christians in general, not loving the world's entertainment,much less a minister.
Several years ago, I asked the wife of a staff minister why she was OK with her husband watching and renting R rated movies.
Actually I was a little more graphic with her.

Sometimes I feel like people have to be shocked to make the connection that they are putting trash into thir minds and lives. You'd think a person in ministry would have come to that....

I always said to my kids.....garbage in /
garbage out....I believe that today more than ever.

I wish I had been as wise as my daughter is today and not had a TV in the house at all.

Whatever is lovely,whatever is pure, whatever is noble....
not many things from the world with those qualities.

socwork said...

Lynn and Soc: Please explain more...I'm having trouble even getting the connection.

Well, if the point of the sermon was this:

"2. God's Opponents EXHIBIT selfish PRIDE."

And then lynn said that SG was referring to this verse (and others, but this is the one that stood out):

44On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying.

That would make me wonder what point SG was trying to make. For example, if you oppose God (or "God's anointed") that means you too are full of selfish pride and jealous - that's why you are in opposition.

Now... I didn't hear the sermon, so I'm just putting 2 and 2 together and asking for clarification from someone who did hear it... (hoping that I'm wrong about my theory)

Yuri G. Yancy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lin said...

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Grace_to_You/archives.asp?bcd=2007-7-12

Great sermon describing what a false teacher looks like.

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
imaresistor said...

Should Pastors Be Restored by John MacArthur

Jon L. Estes said...

OC,

In your personal opinion,what do you understand it takes for a person to go to heaven?

Billie said...

I guess my comments have too much truth in them for you to allow them to be posted!

By the way; remember that John MacAuthor is a hyper calvanist who Dr. Rogers disapproved of. He told me personally that he wouldn't recommend a John MacArthur study bible because he believed that John MacArthur was misleading people and encouraging them to place far too much praise on John Calvin.

I hope to someday meet you, shake your hand and look into your eyes. I would love to see the one who has apparently set himself up as king over the Bellevue Baptist Church Open Forum where all members can come and discuss the issues that we all face with what is going on at our church. What a joke!!!!

I believe you are a dictator placing yourself in charge of spreading the lies and rumors that YOU want to be told in order to destroy the work of the Lord that is going on in BBC. I do not like your attitude I hope to someday see for my own self if your eyes are filled with love and compassion or anger and seeking revenge for having lost the battle over getting Brother Steve out of the pulpit.

I have issues with you that I would love to settle but of course you don't want to discuss that or else you would not omit ALL of the voices desiring to be heard.
You accuse Brother Steve of being a dictator? What are you doing?

Billie

oc said...

jon estes said,

OC,

In your personal opinion,what do you understand it takes for a person to go to heaven?


oc says:
Repentance of your sin and belief in Jesus as your Savior.

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