Thursday, July 12, 2007

It's the "spirit" of the thing...

This is a continuation of the previous thread.

On Sunday, November 5, 2006, there was a marathon BBC deacons' meeting that started in the afternoon, recessed for the evening service (which was followed by the second "information meeting" where we were told how the deacons had "reviewed" the credit card receipts and determined that the pastor had done nothing wrong), then resumed after the service and didn't end until around 11:00 p.m.

Here is a clarification of what transpired during this meeting and afterwards which resulted in the deacon loyalty oath:

1. Near the end of the approximately 6-hour meeting, an idea (not a formal motion) was proposed which referenced supporting the pastor. This was thought by many deacons to simply mean "support" as in prayer, service to the body, etc., not blindly "swallowing and following" the pastor no matter what and certainly not agreeing to signing a statement that, to many members, had all the appearance of pledging an oath to a man. In any case, it was this idea regarding support of the pastor which was passed unanimously (meaning there were no dissenting votes) by those who remained in the meeting. As one deacon put it, after spending nearly six hours in that emotionally-charged, grueling, frustrating, heart-wrenching meeting, he would have agreed to almost anything just so the meeting could be adjourned.

2. A few days later the deacon body received an e-mail containing the "loyalty oath" as reprinted in the previous topic heading. For many deacons, this motion hardly resembled the simple "support" motion voted on in the meeting, and all the deacons were being required to sign it. Yet no one could remember that motion being read word for word at the meeting. However, deacon chairman Chuck Taylor stated in his e-mail that all who were present unanimously approved this motion.

3. It was later learned from some of the deacon officers that the final wording of the motion was drafted after the meeting. Apparently, the deacons' meeting was taped and the opinions and viewpoints expressed by certain deacons that evening were used as a basis for the final wording of the motion. Those supporting the motion claimed this represented the "spirit" of the original motion that was voted on in the meeting. This is where a number of deacons disagreed, and they did not sign the oath. In fact, only about 80 of the 180-plus deacons signed it. Many serious concerns had been expressed during the meeting, and it was felt these were completely ignored by those who drafted this new motion.

4. Finally, Chuck Taylor announced that the deacon officers had decided not to bring the motion to the congregation that following Sunday but to postpone it until a later time. By the way, Mr. Taylor, it's been over 8 months now, and we're still waiting....

Questions to ask:

1. Why was the wording of the motion finalized after the meeting and then claimed in an e-mail sent to the deacons that it was unanimously approved at the earlier meeting of the deacon body? Should not this finalized version of the motion have been brought back to the deacon body for discussion and a proper vote?

2. Was the objective to try and intimidate the deacons who had serious concerns about various issues into signing a document that was considered by many to be a clear violation of Scripture?

3. What authority did the officers have to postpone a motion they claimed had been voted on unanimously by all the deacons (we know it wasn't)? What's the point of voting on motions at deacons' meetings if the officers can rewrite or postpone them later?

4. What was the real reason the officers decided to postpone the motion? Was it because of the positive feedback taking place between the Communications Committee and various groups and individuals in the church as they claimed, or was there another reason?

5. Who all was involved in drafting the loyalty oath?

Concerned members are encouraged to contact deacons who remained until the end of this meeting to see if their version of these events matches those here.

784 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   601 – 784 of 784
New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon Estes,

Regarding your 2:50 p.m. comment, I wasn't going to publish it, but I think it illustrates just what a flaming hypocrite you really are coming here and admonishing us for not always "speaking with grace."

But just in case you change your mind and decide to cover your tracks, I quote:

FYI - FWIW,

"The person linked to; to say I was a calvinist and that I am a champion demonizer is a man who does not believe in the sovereignty of God or the necessity to believe in the resurrection of Christ. So if you want to take his word on anything, enjoy what you get."


Ironic, don't you think that the same man you insulted in that comment, without offering any proof of your statements whatsoever, is the same man you were kissing up to and petitioning to get you back on the BaptistLife.com forums a mere 7 months ago? The evidence is here, but I'll quote that, too... just in case it mysteriously vanishes later:

At 7:18 PM, Jon L. Estes said...
David,

Did you check out my churches new web site? I ask because I got a hit from Enid and you are the only person I know in Enid.

I asked Bruce about returning to bl.com and he said it would need to be the decision of the moderators. Would you mind going to the gang and seeking this request for me?

Jon L. Estes


Tell me, Jon. Wasn't this the same forum you were referring to when you stated this?

"I wish I could say as a very conservative pastor that being banned from a very liberal forum is a bad thing, but it is not."

Jon, I believe it's now time for you to go. You've become too much of a distraction here. This forum is not about you, and you have no dog in this fight. It seems you only want to argue with people. You need to go take care of your sheep now. I'm sure they've missed you. And judging from the wide variation in times you're here, perhaps a little more sleep wouldn't hurt either. Goodbye.

allofgrace said...

gmommy,
Jesus is referred to in Scripture as the firstborn among many brethren...don't know if that was the reference being used, but there it is.

larry said...

gmommy said...
Theology Question from a church I visited today.....
How is Jesus our big brother??????


gmommy,

I've heard people say that before, and it does sound a little strange. (I thought of '1984' when I heard it, too.)

The idea comes from Romans 8:29, "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

gmommy said...

Aog and Larry,
Thanks!! I feel better. So difficult NOT to be on guard at every church now.
The message content over all was good but so many "cool" and "today" references.
The nice thing was that everytime I cringed, my son did too....
and he hasn't been involved in my particular journey these past months.

I can't wait to get back to RO!!!!
This was a church in Midtown that my son asked me to visit with him.
(saw a GBC key board player and a BBC guitar player)
I was one of 3 "old" people.

Lin said...

Estes wrote: The person linked to; to say I was a calvinist and that I am a champion demonizer is a man who does not believe in the sovereignty of God or the necessity to believe in the resurrection of Christ. So if you want to take his word on anything, enjoy what you get. "

Spears, Jon? Grace, Jon? Charm and wit, Jon?

As I have stated over and over...it is NOT about the content of that other blog or his writings about you.... it is about your hypocritical behavior.

I do not know about the other man on that blog but I am concerned that you think a pastor ignoring scripture and harboring a pedophile minister of prayer is a 'mistake'. Or denying one must know Jesus to be saved is a 'blunder'.

I am just seeing lots of hypocritical behavior from so called 'conservative pastors' these days. I don't give them a pass just becuase they call themselves 'conservative'. Or because they are famous. Or because I have visited their house.

God is no respector of persons.

Junkster said...

gmommy said...
I was one of 3 "old" people.

No, no ... you are still quite young. G-mom's are so much younger these days than when I was a boy...

Lindon said...

I wish I could spell...that should be 'respecter'. Sheesh!

gmommy said...

junk,
I am seen as "old" by the 20 year old son....nothing I can do about that.
But thank you!!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Just an observation...

I guess ties for men are passé at BBC after 5:00 p.m. now.

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
Just an observation...

I guess ties for men are passé at BBC after 5:00 p.m. now.


Kinda like hose (or dresses for that matter) for women, huh?

New BBC Open Forum said...

junk wrote:

"Kinda like hose (or dresses for that matter) for women, huh?"

Well, one should go with the other IMO. I've seen way too much skin in church lately!

concernedSBCer said...

Frankly, in my church, the people in choir robes keep it so cold I wear pants out of self-preservation. Until 2 years ago I NEVER would have worn pants to Sunday church.

concernedSBCer said...

By the way....other than the temperature, my church is great!
:)

imaresistor said...

Concerned said, "By the way....other than the temperature, my church is great!"

In today's culture, if you can say this and know it to be true...you really have something! You are truly blessed!!!

David Hall said...

In my church, we wear the robe, but go commando otherwise.

Too much information?

Ha!

8^)

concernedSBCer said...

Ima: You are right. He's preaching out of 2 Timothy right now and today we studied what "the last days" will look like. It sure looks like that now.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hey, I like it cold! And I'd rather see women in nice-looking slacks any day of the week than in sundresses and no hose. Hip-hugger jeans and skimpy little tops that reveal your back tattoos and navel ring don't count! (And yes, I've seen that at BBC.)

Cakes, that's definitely TMI!

gmommy said...

I was freezing today in the preppie church...and many of the young girls were not heavily clothed.
(I'm so glad I never had to deal with modesty with my daughter)

had it not been so loud and the minister not so "animated"...I would have fallen asleep.

On the way home my son said,
with a church on every corner (almost literally)
sure is hard to find a church that isn't worldly...or lame.

Music to my ears from this child.

He has no idea that he will eventually realize he isn't too old to go with his mom....

no rock, walks, big personalities,entertainment distractions ,or skipping all over the Bible...AND NO pre printed prayers in the bullitin....yuk...

so tired of all the poor taste and tackiness! And those are the SMALL issues!

concernedSBCer said...

Nass: I agree with you! I'm so tired of seeing way more than I should have to see on these girls. Of course, I'm not too thrilled at looking at boys' boxers either.

There's a subject for a sermon series....MODESTY.....dressing with respect.....

gmommy said...

speaking of tacky......

was it a phone chain that let all the deacons know the dress code for the night?????
Deacon BP is the only one that doesn't look like he was trying too hard...
glad they didn't all wear T shirts under their jackets!

People already come in sparkles and more skin exposed than should ever be seen....what's next?
What an example of respect.

Ima....
In your research....is there any particular denomination that is going to the "come as you are" "seeker friendly" model more than another??????

Lynn said...

gmommy said...

junk,
I am seen as "old" by the 20 year old son....nothing I can do about that.
But thank you!!!

6:32 PM, July 22, 2007

Your not old gmommy :)

As far as the dress code goes, I agree that there should be some modesty when in church. I can't speak for others, but for me personally, I have a rule of thumb I use...if I can't wear it to work, I shouldn't wear it to church. That won't say I won't wear sneakers, but shoe type isn't much of an issue as far as how much skin people are showing. And I have seen some women at Bellevue wearing some rather revealing clothing!


I think I might go hang out with my sister and neice when Ellendale's new pastor takes over.

gmommy said...

Rowdy,
Thanks!

HOPE the new pastor is really different...one of my most depressing visits was there.... a while back.

concernedSBCer said...

GMommy: I know you asked Ima but from what I've seen it seems to be somewhat across the board with respect to casual dressing. It seems that almost every denomination has it's casual line. Just locally we have Hope Presbyterian, Heartsong Methodist, and we already know about the Baptists. However, I think a casual attitude about many things, including worship, has permeated our culture. However, the seeker-friendly plan takes casual to a whole different dimension.

Lynn said...

gmommy said...

Rowdy,
Thanks!

HOPE the new pastor is really different...one of my most depressing visits was there.... a while back.

10:15 PM, July 22, 2007


gmommy,

check the link on NASS's 4:29pm post. Theres links on Ellendale's website to the sermons he did in view of call as well as a couple other sermons he did up in Baltimore.

ezekiel said...

Modest dress is covered pretty well here:

You will want to look for the May 11 and May 13 threads......

Modest Dress

In business....We learn that you always advertise...

Whatever you are selling.....

imaresistor said...

Gmommy said, "Ima....
In your research....is there any particular denomination that is going to the "come as you are" "seeker friendly" model more than another??????"

Reply: It is all of them. Concerned summed it up pretty well. And from what I hear on this blog and from other sources, BBC continues to inch it's way into the purpose driven kingdom. Remember, this process is a slow boil.

I had the priviledge of sitting and listening to the evangelist, Don Currin, this morning. He said it well...we need to clothe ourselves with Jesus Christ. That should take care of any of these issues, including the dress code. :)

imaresistor said...

On the Ellendale issue...what happened to Jerry Tidwell?

all2jesus said...

Our daughter visited Highpoint Church today and brought home a brochure. There's info on plenty of activities, but precious little on doctrinal beliefs -- just a statement on requirements and arrangements for baptism. But there's a "vision" statement, which I found somewhat unsettling:

Our vision is to be a Perfect Place for Imperfect People where we:

• Accept People
• Build Meaningful Relationships
• Maximize Potential
• Achieve Results

You can read more about it on their web site, but does this sound a little like Joel Osteen to you?

Speaking of whom, I found an interesting interview. Be sure to read his answers to these critical questions:

Do you need to have a personal relationship with Christ or even be a Christian to benefit from what you write?

You put the prayer to accept Christ ... on the very last page of your book. What went into this decision to put it at the very end?

all2jesus said...

We attended Faith Baptist today. After the service we met yet another visiting Bellevue couple. In talking with them, the man mentioned a common offense: Steve saying he was going to make Bellevue into a praying church -- with Dr. Rogers sitting on the front row. He had a keen observation: "So our lack of prayer is what brought him to Bellevue?"

imaresistor said...

All2...

Oh me! It seems there are so few true churches... The only vision I see coming from these places these days is blurred vision.

btw...your first link didn't work.

socwork said...

all2Jesus, thanks for posting that link - that's an interesting interview. Well, interesting and sad... really sad. Sad that this book is on a Christian best-seller list.

New BBC Open Forum said...

The missing link:

Highpoint Church

I understand Mrs. Rogers and her family attended Faith Baptist this morning, too.

Lynn said...

imaresistor said...

On the Ellendale issue...what happened to Jerry Tidwell?

10:59 PM, July 22, 2007


Not sure.

all2jesus said...

The whole family was there.

It has come to our attention that a link in a previous post was non-functional. The correct page is here. all2jesus regrets the error and will take it up with our editorial review board.

Mary said...

Yesterday, at 2:37 PM, imaresistor said...
Let us get down to more serious matters:

Following is one of the most riveting sermons I have seen/heard! Do not miss this one...you can listen or watch, choice is yours.

Bro. Jeff is speaking to a group of deacons at a conference.


God Helps Those Who Cannot Help Themselves by Jeff Noblitt

Mary’s Reply:

Ima, thank you -- thank you! This sermon was exactly what I needed tonight. I praise God for Brother Jeff Noblitt!

To anyone who missed this sermon, please get it and listen – it’s worth your time.

Mary

gmommy said...

I was afraid High Point would have that sort of "vision".
I was asked to visit by one of my good friends...who use to be a deacon at BBC....and an ex staff member has been there for a while now.
Most don't even KNOW what Biblical teaching is anymore. WE made compromises and slowly let the world in .
We set ourselves up for the take over...just as other churches with Good ministers will make compromises to please the crowd....until the church no longer resembles the church.

I think larry, who has posted here recently ,is as sincere as he can be
BUT, when someone comes here and tells us NOT to study and be able to identify the "snakes"....it sounds too much like "stay away from the evil blog" stuff.
We have to be in the Word AND be aware of the worldly things infiltrating our churches and lives.
We must be Bereans!!!

I wish the good ministers left would become familiar with the seeker friendly,emergent,mystical counterfeit.

gmommy said...

Our own SWEET Cakes left a really nice post on the other blog....
What a sweet heart.

Why is padroc over there and not here??????????????????

Gotta try and sleep now....

JTB....hope you are already snoring! It's only going to get worse:)

concernedSBCer said...

I just finished reading Cakes' post "over there" and I am speechless....(and for those who have met me you know this is rare!) Cakes, thank you so much. Whether it will make a difference or not I don't know, but it would be so nice to discuss and not be attacked. You stated your case well. I hope we see you at the next bowling tournament!
:)

youthmomma said...

FWIW Highpoint Church is in the Willowcreek Association.

youthmomma said...

For those interested here is a list of the local churches that are on the Willocreek Assiciation website as members. Germantown Baptist is no longer on this list. BBC is no longer on the list. There used to be a Millington church on here too, but it's no longer there.

Grace Presbyterian Church
Central Church
Collierville United Methodist Church
Heartsong
Hope Pres
The Life Church
Forest Hill Community Church
Living Hope Church
Germantown Pres
St Paul United Methodist
Christ Church
Christ the Rock UMC
Highland Heights Baptist
Highpoint
Lindenwood Christian Church
Mississippi Boulevard Christian Church
Mt. Vernon Baptist Church-Westwood
Raleigh Assembly Of God Church
The Church On The Square

concernedSBCer said...

Youthmomma: I'm not surprised. From what I know of it, it seems to be a very youth oriented, seeker-friendly church.

New BBC Open Forum said...

ATTENTION SHEEPS!

NASS will be visiting greener pastures today, so comments will not be moderated until early this evening. Perhaps you could use today to read through some of the archived topics, or check out the information on some of the sites linked on the front page. There's a whole list of seeker sensitive and PDL stuff, and Slice of Laodicea, Stop Baptist Predators, and Wade Burleson's blog usually have something interesting. And if you just need a laugh, there's always The Sacred Sandwich! Or just spend the day in the Word.

See y'all tonight!

NASS

P.S. We all know why comment moderation has had to be on so much lately, don't we? Some people just can't act like adults, so they have to be treated like children. You know who you are!

larry said...

gmommy said...
BUT, when someone comes here and tells us NOT to study and be able to identify the "snakes"....it sounds too much like "stay away from the evil blog" stuff.


gmommy,
I completely understand why so many people feel the need to increase their awareness of the 'seeker' friendly trends that are weakening our churches. After experiencing this kind of attack, you want to learn why it happened.

I suffered my own attack many years ago. When I was going through a spiritual crisis, a 'friend' gave me a copy of 'The Road Less Traveled' to 'help' me out. By reading that book I opened myself up to all kinds of spiritual influences that carried me far away from God.

We are influenced by what we read (and watch) more than we realize. If you truly feel you need more information about Satan's latest assault on the church (and it seems that you do), then make sure that you read material from godly writers whose purpose is to inform, not to lead you astray.

And I implore you (and everyone else) that for every hour you spend reading about cults and subversion, spend at least 2 in God's Word. Each of us need to be so familiar with God and His ways that we instantly recognize anything that is not from Him (shrewd as snakes). We also need to be so separated from the world that when we see the fruitless deeds of darkness we are truly confused and unable to understand why someone would become involved (innocent as doves).

I truly hope that the Faith Walk will not give cause for anyone to delve into New Age mysticism. I shared a little more info with NASS, so she can form her own opinion about it and let you know.

imaresistor said...

youthmomma and others,

I would just like to add that just because a church is not listed on the Willowcreek Association members list does not necessarily mean that the church in quesion is not a member. A church may have the name ommitted from the list, but still be a member. I verified this many months ago...

Francesca said...

Hello, all, OT

I have been lurking here for months and want to thank you for all I have learned. I was born and raised in Nashville in the SBC. Now I live in the Rocky Mountain Area and CANNOT find a good church. I am at present a member of an evangelical Presbyerian church which was excellent for a while, but now is going with the PDL etc. If anyone knows of a good church with traditional expository preaching and decent music, please let me know. As it is, I dread Sundays because I don't know where to go to church. It is just pathetic.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hi sheeps! I'm back now.

Someone sent me a message today regarding the FBC Jacksonville blog (the link to which appears on the front page of this blog) and a new message that appeared on it. It seems the owners of that site have shut it down, and they left this lovely message for our benefit.

"FBC Jax Blog
This blog has closed down. Traffic to the site now shows that more people from Georgia, Tennessee, North Carolina, Texas and Alabama read it daily than do members of FBC Jax. Since you are not members of FBC Jax, we will close this blog so that you can all go away and mind your own business. Thanks for visiting."


Ironically, a link to the NBBCOF still appears on that blog. I've never objected to anyone anywhere reading this blog, and we have people who aren't members of BBC comment often, some regularly. I have appreciated the insight many of them have brought to our discussions. Sometimes being on the outside can be an advantage because you can see the "big picture" better than if you're up close. And much of what we discuss has to do with the problems facing churches today in general, not just BBC.

I have left only one comment on the FBCJax blog, but I thought I was warmly received. To now be told we're meddling in something that's "none of our business" simply because we're reading something that's on the internet -- in the public domain -- seems a bit disingenuous. News flash, guys! When you put something on the internet, if it's not password protected, anyone in the world can read it! That's one of the reasons I've asked people here to carefully consider their words before hitting "Publish."

If they decided to shut it down because there was such little interest by people in Jacksonville or because they ran out of things to discuss, that's one thing. To say that it's because people in other states are reading it is just ridiculous. Make it invitation only if that's your goal, but don't shut it down completely and then blame it on us!

I have one word of advice for you FBCJax'ers. Give Dr. Jim Whitmire a warm welcome and keep him happy! We want him back here undamaged. And the sooner the better! :-)

all2jesus said...

Larry,

Well said. As you've pointed out, we must study the genuine to be able to spot the counterfeit.

Francesca,

The Rocky Mountain area's pretty big. I'm guessing... Denver?

sickofthelies said...

I went to Faith Baptist yesterday and it was refreshing to hear Brother Danny preach from the Bible, with no hidden agenda!!

He stated that if we ever went to a church where the pastor didn't believe in preaching about 1) sin 2) the blood of Jesus 3) the cross, to get up and walk out.

I was also heartbroken to see Mrs. Adrian Rogers at Faith. Bless her sweet heart..she should be worshipping at the church where she and her husband worshipped. I cannot imagine how abandoned she must feel from those who PRTENDED to be the friend of Dr. Adrian Rogers.

Mrs. Rogers, you are loved!! and we will NEVER forget you..!!! You are a kind gracious lady, from whom I learned a lot just from your example. God bless you, dear, sweet lady!!!

If you EVER need anything, it would be easy enough for your daughter to email NASS for my #..
You are in my prayers.

imaresistor said...

Francesca said, "
I have been lurking here for months and want to thank you for all I have learned. I was born and raised in Nashville in the SBC. Now I live in the Rocky Mountain Area and CANNOT find a good church. I am at present a member of an evangelical Presbyerian church which was excellent for a while, but now is going with the PDL etc. If anyone knows of a good church with traditional expository preaching and decent music, please let me know. As it is, I dread Sundays because I don't know where to go to church. It is just pathetic."

Comment: Francesca, so sorry to hear about your situation. I would love to be able to tell you that your situation is a rare one, but we both know that isn't the case. So many people don't have a church home and have felt forced to leave their church of a lifetime. It is so very sad...just story after story. I have one myself. Maybe I could be of a little help until you find what you are looking for, if you do. You can bring in on Sunday mornings and Sunday evenings through a live feed services from First Baptist of Muscle Shoals. The pastor there preaches truth. There are people from all over the US doing just this. It is truly incredible. People are moving to this area to be near this church. So...until you can find something, if you can, you might like to do this. You can find past services in the service archives section too. Here is the link to where you can bring it is...

here

imaresistor said...

Mary,

You are certainly welcome. I am just so glad you watched it. I wish others would.

Ima

socwork said...

If anyone knows of a good church with traditional expository preaching and decent music, please let me know

Here are two places to find good churches in your area:

Go to www.tms.edu and look up alumni by state.

Also, go to www.9marks.com and click on "church search" from the main menu.

concernedSBCer said...

You know, I'm sitting here reading Francesca and Ima and knowing what I have seen, and it is continuing to get rather disheartening. Sunday morning my Pastor was in 2 Timothy discussing the last days. Of course, I know in the end we win, but still....to see the false teaching, the lack of respect and reverence, the laziness in studying the word (and I can't study as much as I'd like), and the lack of personal responsibility in actions..... well, it just leads me to say more frequently, "Come, Lord Jesus, Come."

I appreciate the challenges, love, support, and respect from those posting here. I appreciate you.
:)

Francesca: Keep praying and looking....there is still a remnant. Find them.

youthmomma said...

ima, I agree with you about the Willowcreek list. It sure is shorter than it used to be. I would think a church would have a say as to being listed or not. At least the churches listed are up front about it.

concernedSBCer said...

About FBC Jax......I'm kinda confused about that. :/

What did they think people from North Carolina and Tennessee, etc. were going to do???

Delivered By Grace said...

Lin stated:

But, it really boils down to the fact that he/she keeps advocating a 'non-Lordship salvation' whether he/she wants to admit it or not.

Response:

Yes this is what I am advocating. The acceptance of Jesus as Lord is something ALL will do and that includes believers, nonbelievers and even ultimately, Satan himself. Jesus is Lord. This is not a philosophy. It is not just doctrine. It is an axiom of life. I personally belive that all believers accept His Lordship. I still state that it is independent of salvation.

Lin:

Here is a quote from Ryrie's book 'Balancing the Christian Life' writing about Jesus as Lord or "Lordship Salvation:

"The importance of this question cannot be overestimated in relation to both salvation and sanctification. The message of faith only and the message of faith plus commitment of life cannot both be the gospel; therefore, one of them is false and comes under the curse of perverting the gospel or preaching another gospel" (p. 170).

Do you see the parallels with what dbg is saying? Ryrie is basically calling a 'commitment of life' to the Lord, 'works'. He is saying 'commitment of Life' is faith + something.

Response:

The parallels you speak of are correct. My beliefs are in line with the statement by Dr. Ryrie that you quoted.

Lin:

Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is the foundation of everything. If we do not get that part right...we cannot get anything else right. And that, my friends, is very scary.

Response:

Jesus is Lord because He is. There is nothing anyone can do to change that. Jesus Christ is Saviour when He is accepted. Jesus is the saviour of those who believe. He is Lord regardless of whether one believes. I just do not believe in the many 'parts' of salvation. There is one part to salvation. Believe. The other parts are independent to salvation. But I do believe the other parts are important (so as no one will consider me to be an antinomianist).

Westtnbarrister stated the ordo salutis of the Arminian as:

1) outward call
2) faith/election
3) repentance
4) regeneration
5) justification
6) perseverance
7) glorification

While I do not necessarily place myself in the Arminian camp, this does mirror my belief.

Lin:

Please check these things out for yourselves. Don't believe me. Don't believe dbg. There is just too much riding on eternity to believe something that is false.

Response:

I agree wholeheartedly. Arminians and Calvinists have labeled each other false teachers for thousands of years. The purpose of my original post was to provide the other view, which I believe.

junkster stated:

I have a question for you, Delivered By Grace ...

What is your point in promoting your views here?

Response:

Because I have failed to see my views expressed by any other poster and my views are also important considering the weight of the discussion.

Junkster:

Is it to attempt to persuade / teach others? If so, I don't think it's working, or likely to.

Response: I am not trying to persuade any of the posters. I am trying to speak the Gospel to the many hundreds who read this site and may be unclear as to how to be redeemed. I fear that some will read the posts and come to the conclusion that, "This is just to hard for me to follow." I want them to understand that salvation is indeed 'easy'.

junkster:
If so, I can't see why it would matter to you what sort of doctrine anyone here espouses, as long as they have faith in Jesus --which appears to be all that really matters in your view.

Response:

You do make a good point. While I can believe that simple faith is sufficient, that is not the case for the other viewpoint. I do not question the salvation of those that believe in a Lordship Salvation. Those that have espoused the Lordship Salvation view do question mine.

I just want those who may read and be confused that all they need is faith in Jesus. The other parts will come in time as the believer studies the scriptures and matures as a Christian. I just don't want anyone anyone to turn away from Christ because they don't understand what we are discussing.


junkster:
Is it just to try to win arguments with people? If so, your time would be better spent on other things, because you are not winning anything.

Response:

I am not trying to sway anyone. I just want people to see that it is not difficult to be redeemed. And hopefully I am winning something. Hopefully the Holy Spirit is using all of this discussion to win maybe even one soul to Christ.

junkster:
Is it to distract from the issues facing BBC by dancing on the heads of theological pins? If so, you're doing a fine job.

Response:

While I find it so distressing that a man of such low moral fiber is currently 'leading' the church that I grew up in, I still try to keep my eyes on the bigger prize, and that is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And I will dance on as many pin heads as I need to continue to do that.

Regardless of anyone's opinion, no one will reach the Kingdom without Christ.

sickofthelies said...

concernedsbcer asks:

What did they think people from North Carolina and Tennessee, etc. were going to do???


sotl replies;

SBC'er..do you reckon that they think that we are hillbillies with pitchforks?

WELL!!! hmmph!!! and I don't even own a pitchfork!!! ( tossing my big hair back over my shoulder and spittin out my BIG RED chewin tobakkee in my spittoon)

Lin said...

delieveredbygrace wrote: There is one part to salvation. Believe."

James 2
18But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

socwork said...

For what it's worth,

Jesus Christ is Saviour when He is accepted.

I know to use the word "accept" is such common language when talking about salvation, but here's a thought I have heard and very much agree with: Jesus does not need to be accepted by us, we need to be accepted by Him.

Just some food for thought this morning...

allofgrace said...

socwork,
Amen to your post...that's a forgotten aspect these days.

Junkster said...

sickofthelies said...
SBC'er..do you reckon that they think that we are hillbillies with pitchforks?

WELL!!! hmmph!!! and I don't even own a pitchfork!!! ( tossing my big hair back over my shoulder and spittin out my BIG RED chewin tobakkee in my spittoon)


SOTL, haven't you ever been to Jacksonville? That part of Florida is really just an annex to South Georgia ... not exactly a part of the country where the folks are in a position to consider folks from Tennessee (most especially Memphis) any more redneck than they are! Shoot, here in Tennessee the law won't allow us to marry a relative any closer than a first cousin!

ezekiel said...

Romans 10:9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

ezekiel said...

Hosea 13:4 Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no saviour beside me.

ezekiel said...

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

ezekiel said...

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called: 1:2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied. 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

ezekiel said...

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.

10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

ezekiel said...

"take up your cross and follow me..."...Now what does this mean?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Simple....die to sin.....

ezekiel said...

Folks.....You have one on the blog that would have you believe that salvation is easy....that all you have to do is believe....

Even Nebuchadnezzar "believed"...

2:46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.

2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth [it is], that your God [is] a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

But then what dd he do....ran right out and built himself a golden image..

Dan 3:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height [was] threescore cubits, [and] the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.

Something very important to remember....the king worshipped Danial, and confessed that God was a God of gods and Lord of kings but he never confessed God as his Lord....

ezekiel said...

Jeremiah 7:3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.

7:4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, [are] these.

7:5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;

7:6 [If] ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

7:7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

7:8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.

7:9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;

7:10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?

7:11 Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen [it], saith the LORD.

7:12 But go ye now unto my place which [was] in Shiloh, where I set my name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel.

7:13 And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the LORD, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye answered not;

7:14 Therefore will I do unto [this] house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.

Todays equivelent is "all you have to do is believe"....

Salvation is not a liscense to live as you want...and serve the sin that Jesus died to free you from....

ezekiel said...

2 Tim 33:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was.

3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of [them] all the Lord delivered me.

3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];

3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

ezekiel said...

Danial asked Nebuchadnezzar to repent and God gave him a year to do it...

4:27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.

4:28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.

4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

4:31 While the word [was] in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, [saying], O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling [shall be] with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

32yrs@bbc said...

ezekiel said...
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
-----------------
Honest question to those who have stated Bellevue now has a false teacher: Based on the above Scripture, what are examples you can give to back up that claim?
I personally do not see it. He preaches the Word of God tho' I grant you he has a way of presenting it to get his personal agenda across or as a bully pulpit against his opposition. However, I do not see that he is teaching heresy which would label him a false teacher. It IS my belief that he is introducing the PDC methodology in spite of his denials. As ima said: "It is a slow boil." Which leads me to a second question:

Do you believe Warrenism is heresy - or is it just playing fast and loose with the Word of God - a dumbing down of worship?

ezekiel said...

Sometimes it takes some folks more to "believe" than others....

Dan4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' [feathers], and his nails like birds' [claws].

4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation:

4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

4:36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works [are] truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

7 Years of eating grass and roaming in a field, wet, hairy and untrimmed would do it....yep..

I tell you what
....deliveredbygrace...

I am going to believe and call Him LORD of my life, bow and worship him and obey His commandments and statutes....You can wait to be convinced if you want to....I hope you don't...

Malachi 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Lin said...

Matthew 5

20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

allofgrace said...

IMHO playing fast and loose with the word of God is the same as being a false teacher...isn't that what the "name it and claim it" bunch does?...aren't they false teachers?

Becky said...

For several days we have been discussing "Faith Walk" at Faith Baptist Church.

Many refugees from Bellevue are visiting or have joined Faith Baptist, and have been welcomed with open arms.

NASS posted this earlier in the thread. I think it merits reposting.

"In 2001 the Lord began to draw people who had attended many different weekends to Faith Baptist Church in Bartlett, Tennessee. In less than two years the Lord brought people from Tres Dias, Walk to Emmaus, Discipleship Walk, Presbyterian Cursillo and Kairos. As we began to pray together the Lord began to show us that almost every denomination had started a version of the Cursillo movement, with the exception of Baptist. Thus the dream of Faith Walk would begin. The purpose from the beginning would be twofold. It would be ecumenical (not a Baptist weekend) and it would exist 'to strengthen and develop leaders in other churches.' Three insurmountable challenges would surface: First, we would need at least 35 people who had gone through a weekend. Second, we would need a little over nine thousand dollars to purchase the initial supplies. Third, we would need another community to come along side us and help us rewrite a Manual (a Manual that, with talks and all, would require over two thousand man hours). Within a year the Lord miraculously provided all three in ways that were so unusual that it could have only been accomplished by a sovereign God. Discipleship Walk of Memphis, TN came along side us. Half of Faith Walk #1 and #2 (Oct 2003) was made up of Discipleship Walk members. We had 16 male Believers (Candidates, Disciples or Pilgrims on other Walks) on the first Faith Walk and 16 female Believers on Walk #2. The birth had taken place and the spirit of God had moved in a powerful, strong way – beyond our wildest dreams!!!

"May the Lord continue to add to the number of names of the Cursillo movement until the entire world knows about His Grace and the many colors of His love."

Churchmouse replies: Here are some web addresses where you can read about the Cursillo Movement. Please take time to read some of this.

http://www.cephasministry.com/index_tres_dias_movement.html

WALK TO EMMAUS expose:

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?m=200704

and

http://simplyagape.blogspot.com/2007_03_01_archive.html

IMPORTANT NOTE: This is not an attack on anyone, this is information to help you. Be informed!

Lin said...

32years wrote: "He preaches the Word of God tho' I grant you he has a way of presenting it to get his personal agenda across or as a bully pulpit against his opposition."

I think you answered your own question. He has a ‘personal agenda’. He proof texts his sermons to fit the premise and outcome ‘he’ wants. Would a ‘real’ prophet have a personal agenda? Or would his agenda only be that of Christ’?

Preaching Acts 5 as a question of ‘greed’ was twisting the scripture. Ignoring 1 Corinthians 5 and 1 Timothy 2 in the case of PW was false for someone who should know scripture and calls themselves a pastor. I could go on and on.

A False prophet can be false because of ‘behavior’. Read Jude.

Gaines is not unlike Ted Haggard who railed against Homosexuality in the pulpit. He was preaching against his own sin.

Gaines is on this kick about ‘authority and submission’ because it fits his desperate need to be in control so as to squash any questions or criticism. Yet Gaines refuses to be under the authority of the Word of Jesus Christ.

A false prophet is a ‘pretender’ or ‘imposter’. We can recognize them by their fruits.

Matthew 7
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

False Prophet

pseudoprophētēs
psyoo-dop-rof-ay'-tace
a spurious prophet, that is, pretended foreteller or religious impostor: - false prophet.

New BBC Open Forum said...

churchmouse's links:

1

2

3

ezekiel said...

32 yrs,

The handling of the pedaphile pretty well did it for me. The predator was not handled according to anything in scripture, 1 Cor, Timothy....

If he will lie to me on this one....what else will he tell me....that is not true?

Then we were told that it was under the blood.

I believe that is where Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

We have had many that preach grace and that it covers sins....

One version of the Bible uses lisencenious or something similar in place of lasciviousness...Meaning telling everyone that grace gives us a liscense to sin....knowingly, repetitively....

That is nothing but rebellion...And God does not honor that. Jesus doesn't either...

Jesus came talking repent....for the kingdom is at hand...the rest of the NT is how to live, how to practice, how to accept the freedom from serving sin that Jesus died on the cross to give us....So when one says Matthew 18 does not apply, when qualifications for ministers are just guidelines...the teaching are in accurate...And the actions, arrogance and such that we see practiced....mans laws are no different from the religion in the OT that God sent the prophets to preach against and teach against.....

Warren, PDL Emergent....we are going down the path of religion...man's way......

JMO

Lin said...

"Do you believe Warrenism is heresy - or is it just playing fast and loose with the Word of God - a dumbing down of worship? "

2:52 PM, July 24, 2007

What would you call playing fast and loose with the Word? What should we call 'dumbing down worship'?

I did not see the false teaching in PDL until I did a deep study. Because it is not really presenting a 'lie'. It just is not the FULL truth or the full counsel of God. And he uses many translations so to fit his already pre-arranged premise. He starts with a 'premise' and proof texts verses and translations to fit the premise.

Here is a great tool to use in studying PDL. Go through it and see what I mean.

http://cicministry.org/berean.php

It is not just what he teaches...it is also what he 'does'. He is very scary because he is so subtle.

But Warren does get extremely angry when people do not agree with him or question him. If you keep pressing Warren on a point.. say about what he said in Syria, he says you are being 'uncivil'.

He was also caught in a HUGE lie about Syria. Make that several big lies. Stuff kept disappearing off the internet and youtube after he got caught in the lies. Then he hired the big PR guy Dennis Ross and hired another guy to blog, Mark Kelly, to remake his image after that.

All pastors need PR guys, right?

Piglet said...

churchmouse

Thanks for those links.

Larry

So.....what is your response to the information in these links about this Faith Walk?

I'm getting a little tired of all the hocus pocus slithering into the church. ALL the other denominations were doing it so the Baptists had to join in?!!!!

I thought we got past this clueless impressionable behaviour as teenagers. Duh!

oc said...

lin said:

I think you answered your own question. He has a ‘personal agenda’. He proof texts his sermons to fit the premise and outcome ‘he’ wants. Would a ‘real’ prophet have a personal agenda? Or would his agenda only be that of Christ’?

oc says:
Good one, lin. 'Agenda'. His proof texting is manipulation, of the Scripture, and of the Sheep, and is a disgrace to the Lord.

And to answer your question, which is I'm sure is obviously rhetorical; a real prophet would care not for anyone's agenda, especially his own, but only the Lord's. And he would be more than willing to be stoned because of it.

Just sayin'.

oc.

Lin said...

Great post at team pyro

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2007/07/getting-by-on-christian-vapors-rant.html

Becky said...

Webster gives the first defination of prophet as "one who utters devinely inspired revelations."

Have we not had, in the past, an expectation that a pastor prayed for inspiration before writing his sermons? Did we not expect him to commune with the Lord before he gave his message?

Remember how listening to a sermon at Bellevue made you wonder how you could be seated among hundreds of worshippers and hear a message directly from the Lord to you?

Now, many pastors are using sermons from pastors.com, seminary students, Willow Creek Association, and who knows where. Is it any wonder they fail to hit their mark? They are like frozen TV dinners; they are unpalatible, don't satisfy, and leave you with a bad taste in your mouth.

larry said...

Hi Piglet.

The only answer I can give is for you to form your own opinions. God has given us discerning minds, the Spirit, and also one another to talk to. I'm sure that if you've been at Bellevue for a while that at least one of your friends who you know and trust has been on one of the walks. Find and talk to them.

Simply saying something is contemplative does not make it so. By definition, contemplative prayer is trying to form a 'union' with God directly without involving Jesus. (That's true of any form of pantheism, by the way.)That isn't even close to what happens on a Faith Walk. It's entirely about Jesus.

My only experience is here in Memphis, but I have no problems at all with the Faith Walk (other than it seems to be getting commercialized).

Faith Baptist is a Jesus honoring, Bible teaching church. I really can't say anything more convincing than that.

Larry

all2jesus said...

32+yrs said:
Honest question to those who have stated Bellevue now has a false teacher: Based on the above Scripture, what are examples you can give to back up that claim?
I personally do not see it. He preaches the Word of God tho' I grant you he has a way of presenting it to get his personal agenda across or as a bully pulpit against his opposition. However, I do not see that he is teaching heresy which would label him a false teacher. It IS my belief that he is introducing the PDC methodology in spite of his denials. As ima said: "It is a slow boil."


Lin and ezekiel gave solid answers to this. I gave some concrete examples of false teaching in response to a similar question on another blog we're familiar with. To spare you the trip, here's an excerpt:

1. Faced with serious allegations, Steve Gaines has refused to allow the clear teaching of scripture (Matt. 18) to be used to resolve the issues. The senior leadership surrounded and defended him in that refusal. Two of those men even went to the president of a certain seminary to explain to him how Matt. 18 doesn't apply to pastors. Gaines has never corrected them on that, in fact, I'd be willing to bet they had just left a little "Bible study" in the pastor's office. No honest exegesis of Matt. 18 would allow such a monstrous distortion. That, sir, is false teaching. Whether he taught it verbally or not, he has let it stand and it has been his conduct.

2. Steve Gaines has nullified the doctrine of Church Discipline. When a deacon asked why Mark Sharpe wasn't being handled under Church Discipline (for the record, Mark would have welcomed this and even requested it), Steve replied "Church discipline is a slippery slope." The truth is, disciplining Mark would have forced Matt. 18 to be followed. See item #1. Under Gaines, there have been no other instances of Church Discipline being followed, either, though several cases have fairly begged for it.

3. With respect to giving, Steve Gaines has violated the free will of those under his authority. Everyone he can compel to tithe, he has compelled: staff, deacons, Bible fellowship teachers. Everyone else he beats over the head. What does scripture say? "So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Cor. 9:7"

As Dr. Rogers used to say every year during the Love Offering, "What you do not willingly and cheerfully give, God neither needs nor wants." Once someone compels you to do something, you can no longer do it simply because you want to. Steve Gaines has robbed whoever he can of the joy of giving. Note: The term "free will" only occurs in the Bible in reference to giving (sorry, Arminians.) Ex. 35:29; Lev. 1:3; Lev. 19:5; Lev. 22:19; Lev. 22:29; Ezra 3:5; Ps. 54:6; 2 Cor. 8:1-5

4. Steve Gaines does not believe in the scriptural requirements for ministers. He did everything he could to keep an admitted pedophile on staff. Months after the report came out that slapped his hand, he still maintained that Paul Williams should not have been let go. When it was pointed out that Williams had failed several of the scriptural criteria, Gaines replied that those were "just guidelines."

Piglet said...

Larry said

My only experience is here in Memphis, but I have no problems at all with the Faith Walk (other than it seems to be getting commercialized).

Faith Baptist is a Jesus honoring, Bible teaching church. I really can't say anything more convincing than that.

Piglet says:

Then why join up with this "movement" at all, if Faith is not on the same path as those who promote it? That just does not make sense....

The Catholics talk a lot about Jesus, too, but I don't agree with what they are saying because it is not scriptural.

You never said that you read the links. Have you?

sickofthelies said...

Does anyone have an update on the
Claude Thomas situation at GBC?

Piglet said...

P.S.

My frustration is not with you personally...sorry.

I am just alarmed to see all these movements that seek to unite all faiths ...Rick Warren is doing it, the labyrinths have permeated all denominations, now this "walk" ...why the sudden urge (atleast for Baptists) to unite with all faiths? I know, it is part of the end times - but not something to be rushing toward.

If something is accepted by all denominations, this only gives me pause to be wary of it - not want to "get in on it".

The proverbial handwriting is on the wall for all to see.

Can't a Baptist church have a conference on their own to encourage a deeper walk with the Lord without uniting with the ecumenical hogwash out there?

Okay, this is off topic...(deep breaths)...back to BBC and the stepford deacons.....

Lynn said...

I'm not worried about the Faith Walk at Faith Baptist. The reason I'm not concerned about it is because its completely optional. Its not where its being crammed down the memberships throat. If it was, then I would have a problem with it.

imaresistor said...

Here is a link to a video, a sermon by David Cloud that most of you might find interesting. He delivers an excellent sermon on the history of the Roman Catholic Church and how we are being linked to it today. It sent cold chills over me as I sat watching it.

It is one thing to be well enough versed in the Word to be able to recognize a counterfeit when you see it, but it is another thing to remain ignorant to the wiles of the devil and be tricked by him. Deceit comes in many different forms. Pagan worship is coming into our churches under the guise of many different names. Instead of being offended by those trying to point this out, be grateful to them.

Here is the link.

Again, please understand...just trying to enlighten. The benefit of a doubt would help here.

Ima

Lindon said...

Youthmama,

I came across this video from the Willow Creek Arts Conference. If you can figure out what they are saying, would you let me know?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2YfrXytc5eE

(What is up with Kimball's bizarre hairdo? :o)

sickofthelies said...

Guys,

My husband and I have met with Bro. Danny from Faith Baptist and I cannot say enough good things about that man. We came away feeling that he is a man of integrity, and he loves the Lord. He also loved DR. Rogers...

He made a statement that gave me a peace about leaving BBC...he said that when God " releases" us from BBC, we will know it...well, friends, I have to tell you, God HAS released us from BBC, and I did not realize it until Bro. Danny put it that way.

I have such a peace about things now...I feel that I have come full circle with my grieving process...

WE will continue to visit Faith for a while, and maybe even pop into a few other churches just to make sure that FAith is where God wants us to be.

But I just want to go on the record as saying that Bro. Danny is a fine man and we were very impressed with him.

imaresistor said...

On the, "Is he a false teacher" issue. These guys are saying one thing and doing another. That is deceit. That is a false teacher. There is a plan in place. What good is standing behind the pulpit preaching a decent sermon and then putting into place a plan that is running off the members. Plain and simple abusive actions to get rid of the resistors? I should think a man of deceit would be the same as a false teacher.

imaresistor said...

The pope made a statement recently that has stirred quite a bit of controversy. He said that the Catholic Church is the only 'true church'. We are all 'non-Christians'. :)

sickofthelies said...

OH, as a footnote to my last post, I want to say that at no time did Bro. Danny try to encourage us to leave BBC and join his church.

He just openly and honestly answered our questions. It was refreshing, actually.

larry said...

piglet,

Faith Baptist initiated the Faith Walk, and it's not part of any kind of movement. The format is the same as Emmaus and the others, but that's as far as the resemblance goes.

I did look at the links. I'm familiar with Tim Wirth's work, but I don't think the article he recommended is relevant to Faith Walk since it predates it by several years.

The Lighthousetrails article jumbled together a lot of details about Emmaus, Cursillo, and the Upper Room ministries, and it seems to make little if any distinction between them. Also, I didn't see an author or other source listed, so I can't take it into consideration until I know who wrote it.

I'm very concerned that some of those hurting people who need a church are going to condemn Faith Baptist because of this ongoing discussion. Again, I implore you to talk to people you know and trust before making a final opinion. Mrs. Rogers was with us this week, and I don't believe she'd worship at a church she had questions about.

imaresistor said...

Sorry about the David Cloud sermon link. Let me try again:

here

larry said...

I was browsing some of the earlier threads today, and I came across a truly outstanding post that I think is worth reposting in light of the current discussion. If we think rightly about scripture and act rightly on what we know, then we'll know the counterfeits when we see them.

westtnbarrister said...

I will give you a few things to think about.

A truly Christian worldview begins with the conviction that God Himself has spoken in Scripture. At Bellevue we pay lip service to our commitment to the Bible as the inerrant and authoritative Word of God. We believe it is reliable and true from cover to cover, in every jot and tittle. Scripture, therefore, is the standard by which we must test all truth-claims. Unless that axiom dominates our perspective on all of life, we cannot legitimately claim to have embraced a Christian worldview.

When we begin with a right view of Scripture, the Bible itself ought to shape what we believe from start to finish. It should govern how we behave. It should frame our entire perspective on life. In other words, if we simply start by affirming what the Bible says about itself, the rest of our worldview should fall into place, with the Bible as the source and touchstone of all we believe.

But is the Bible, in and of itself, sufficient to furnish us with a complete worldview? Many Christians these days seem to imagine that the Bible is neither modern enough nor sophisticated enough to equip people to live in the twenty-first century. Church growth experts tell pastors they must look beyond the Bible for principles of leadership and success gleaned from the business world. Psychologists claim the Bible is too simplistic to help people with complex emotional and psychological issues. In every quarter of the evangelical movement today the Scriptures are being set aside in favor of novel philosophies, scientific theories, experimental behavioral and counseling techniques, political correctness, and other similar fads of modern opinion. People who claim to be evangelicals have jumped on almost every novel bandwagon of secular opinion since the middle of the nineteenth century.

Observing the current trends in the church, one would think opinion polls, rather than Scripture, determines truth for Christians. Obviously, many who call themselves evangelicals operate with something other than a biblical worldview.

Perhaps the one doctrine most under attack in the church of our generation is the sufficiency of Scripture. Even people who give lip service to the authority, inspiration, and inerrancy of Scripture sometimes balk at affirming its sufficiency. The result is virtually the same as a denial of biblical authority, because it directs people away from the Bible in search of other “truth.”

What do we mean when we say Scripture is sufficient? We mean that the Bible is an adequate guide for all matters of faith and conduct. Scripture gives us every truth we need for life and godliness. Or to borrow words from the Westminster Confession of Faith (1847), “The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men."

The church, by and large, simply does not believe that anymore. The average Christian seems to assume that something more than Scripture is needed to help us cope in a modern world. Christian bookstores are full of books offering advice drawn from sources other than the Bible on almost every conceivable subject. Many contain advice that runs directly counter to the Scriptural precepts on the same topic matter. Various self-appointed experts who claim to have discovered some deep truth not revealed in Scripture have now become familiar fixtures on the evangelical landscape. The sufficiency of Scripture is under attack, and the effect on the collective worldview of the evangelical movement, including Southern Baptists, has been disastrous.

Do you want evidence that evangelicals are losing confidence in the sufficiency of Scripture? You will see it in the rise of evangelical mysticism—the belief that Christians need to listen to God speaking directly to them through strong impressions in their mind, a voice in their head, or other mystic means. Some are now obsessed with demonic powers and Satan. They imagine they can command demons by merely speaking with them. I argue all such mysticism is in reality nothing more than dabbling with the occult. It stems from a loss of confidence in the sufficiency of Scripture. Those who aren’t convinced the Bible is a sufficient revelation of truth will be continually looking elsewhere for more “revelation” and new mystical experiences. In doing so, they open the door to the worst kinds of deception.

During the past forty years we
have witnessed the abandonment of belief in Scripture’s sufficiency in the area of marriage and family. Christians once believed that if they studied the Word of God and obeyed its principles , they would have a God-honoring family life and a fulfilling marriage that would please the Lord. But now there is a proliferation of new techniques and a plethora of concepts, gimmicks, and opinions apart from the Word as the real keys in dealing with family problems. All of that suggests Christians no longer believe the Bible is a sufficient source of instruction. No marriage ever fails unless one or both spouses is disobedient to the clear biblical teaching about how to live with one’s spouse in love and understanding. The failure of Christian marriages today is not proof of the insufficiency of Scripture; it is proof of the weakness and biblical illiteracy of those who say they believe Scripture is the Word of God.

I repeat my question, absent His Word, how does God educate a man? I believe the Bible is the standard by which all knowledge, thoughts, and conduct must be measured.

5:58 PM, December 27, 2006

Lynn said...

imaresistor said...

The pope made a statement recently that has stirred quite a bit of controversy. He said that the Catholic Church is the only 'true church'. We are all 'non-Christians'. :)

9:50 PM, July 24, 2007

I heard about that. That ruffled Al Moehler's feathers for sure.

But ya know...he does look like Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars so go figure.

concernedSBCer said...

Okay, truthseekers....I have a serious question. All the discussion yesterday and today about salvation has been a little over my head. This is what I have always thought:

Scriptures says to have the faith of a child....therefore I think that the initial choice to believe is fairly easy. Now, I do believe that the Holy Spirit draws us (in my case, He dragged me!) but I believe the initial decision was as simple (and as difficult) as knowing I sin and knowing it grieves God and then knowing that He sent his Son to pay the price for my sin.

Now, you guys are better at the verbiage, but I think that's the first step.

Then, I think that "line" to a relationship with God is open because the Holy Spirit is then in us, so I think the growing follows.

Unfortunately, I believe the Parable of the Sower that some seeds just don't grow, some grow for a while and whither...all signs of people we know who have made a public confession of faith. Then of course there are those seeds that grow strong. I think this is a picture of the changes that happen within a Christian.

We have had a rash the last 2 years of "re-baptisms." These involve children that were young when they made their profession of faith. Some adult starts saying stuff like....."You didn't know what it entailed" and You weren't sure of your course in life"....blah, blah, blah....

Bottom line, those kids believed exactly what they were capable of believing at that time, then God continued to work with them and they grew and understood more. But I don't believe it meant they weren't saved to begin with.


I guess all this to say that I believe at any age you can accept God's gift of salvation by understanding you are a sinner and Jesus died to pay the price of your sin and rose again to defeat death. Then you commit your life to loving Him and studying and praying, etc. So then you grow in righteousness and knowledge and continue to love your Father and your Savior even more. (Who in a long term loving marriage doesn't love your spouse more today than the day you go married? Of course you do! You have built trust, shared memories, taken care of him/her, etc. That's how it is....Our belief grows more the more time we spend with Him.)

Anyway, all this to say that I don't want anyone reading this blog to think becoming a Christian is hard. Behaving and living like a Christian is sometimes the challenge. However, with faith in God, your walk as a Christian can be accomplished to His glory.

Piglet said...

Lynn

Labyrinths are optional- are they scriptural?

SOTL

I am glad that you may have found a church home - I'm not sure I ever will. Everywhere I turn, "good men" are lacking discernment. I am struggling to understand this.

I know you hold this pastor in high esteem. I hope he is not getting sucked down the ecumenical path, maybe without his knowing.

gmommy said...

SOTL,
I am so happy you have the peace you need to move away and heal from the betrayal of BBC. I'm not surprised that you found Bro. Danny to be honest,sincere and Godly.

It will be a huge responsibility for Bro Danny NOT to ease (instead of fall) into the "programs" suggested and marketed by the SBC and Lifeway and whoever else....that brings the world ever so gently into the church.
He will have to so stay in the Word...to be a Berean!!!!

We all need to pray for him and the other humble ministers....that they stay ACCOUNTABLE and focus not on the programs, "Christian trends",the way to grow.....nothing else... but the Holiness of the Lord and His Word.

I pray Baptists will study the Bible as a whole and not pull verses from here and there to make their sermon thesis. (sorry...forgot the long word for that)

I pray that the pastors will be so sure of the "real thing" that they will be able to discern the counterfiet.
I pray the churches and pastors will stop making mega bucks and become servants again.
I PRAY we have all learned not to follow blindly,not to be quick to put men on pedestals....

I know that I personally cannot go to another loud worship service....

maybe a "singin" or a production but FOR ME...
no more clapping as if I am at a concert or show. No more screens with the words to elementary songs.
Music ...for me ...needs to first focus on God and His Holiness...and the words tell the gospel of Jesus.

As a child,those black notes in the hymn book spoke to me and stimulatd my mind as well as my heart.
Worship for me can no longer be about the beautiful voice of the minister or the singer.

I also have peace about letting go of what I held onto much too long.
I hate that we are all scattered.I had hoped to hold on to that handful of tried and true friends I love and trust.

But I also wanted to hold onto what I thought was my family history/heritage at BBC. I know better now.

I will not be letting go of my real history by moving forward or my friends.

We have learned so much about functioning as the Body during this time of sadness and suffering....
What a "peculiar" bunch we are!! :)

gmommy said...

OH my ....lets go backwards now!
Lets all jump on whatever bandwagon Mrs R and her family jump on.......
Larry,
are you new?.....we THINK and study and test everything.

We love Mrs R...but we do NOT ACCEPT anything just because she or any other person thinks it is OK....BS, DS,RM.....NOT what we are about at all.
Thanks for bringing me back to stinking reality again...so quickly.

ezekiel said...

Folks....I am just heartbroken over the posts from Fransesca and others....searching for a church...

It appears that we are sheep, wandering in the wilderness. The desert. Dry for lack of water...water of the WORD....

Sheep all over are thirsty. God tells us through Amos that he is going to dry the land up...Amos 8:11

He tells us again abouut dry and parched pastures on Joel 1:19-20

He tells us through Ezekiel in EZ 34:11-20 that the pastors of that day were trampling the grass and muddying the water. But then He tells us that He is going to send a shepherd....and He did...JESUS. The WORD.

That gets us to Psalm 23. The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. He leads me in green pastures and by still water......

Moses struck the rock in the desert and water flowed. Jesus, the Rock was struck on the cross and blood and water flowed......

I say all this to say there is a famine today...and we see the evidence. You can wander from church to church...seeking water and grass....but as time goes on....and we get closer to the day...The famine is going to get more intense...There will be less and less water and grass....where you are looking for it.

Turn to Jesus, the WORD. The Rock, for your water and grass. Graze in His pasture. When you are well fed and fat....show other sheep where to find the same water and grass....

I am by no means saying that church is not needed. Fellowship and strength that you get from them is important....Just don't rely on them to feed you. Let Jesus do that.....

We are doing the same thing today that the people in the wilderness did...turning up our nose at the manna...We want our preacher to give us meat.....

David Hall said...

Whaaaaaat Up, truthseekers!

Yeah, hi.

I got nothing to interject on this subject, but love and smootches too.

Yoo-hoooooooooooo.

Piglet said...

Larry

Thanks for your response.

If Faith is not involved in this movement, they need to get the information off of their website.

Mary said...

larry said...
piglet,

Faith Baptist initiated the Faith Walk, and it's not part of any kind of movement. The format is the same as Emmaus and the others, but that's as far as the resemblance goes.


Mary says:

Larry, with all due respect, that is an incorrect statement. The Faith Walk at Faith Baptist is a part of, and is associated with Faith Walk International. This is a fact and it can be found HERE on Faith Baptist’s website.
If you will go to that link and read ALL of the information, I think you will see why many of us have serious concerns.

Mary

gmommy said...

Cakes!!!
You were such a SWEET cake (and sweet heart)on that other blog....

I'm so sorry we won't be able to serve on the committe for deacon prez together ....but...
there is always bowling!!!!

gmommy said...

eze,
You are so right!

imaresistor said...

Piglet...

Agreed...you are right!

concernedSBCer said...

Hi Cakes! Good to "see" you!
BTW...did you get me mail???

:)

imaresistor said...

Larry,

I would also present this website to your pastor and ask him to explain it to you and your congregants. You all deserve truth. And nothing less.

Piglet said...

Hi, Cakes!

David Hall said...

BTW...did you get me mail???

Yup. Why are you talking like a pirate?

Wait, let me guess--Johnny Depp fan.

concernedSBCer said...

Night all! If the trumpet sounds, I'll see you on the way up!
:)

Mary said...

Larry, I forgot to add…

Please click on the link at the Click Here, at the bottom of the page.

Mary

concernedSBCer said...

LOL...it's late, Cakes! Typo!

Of course, I am a Pirates of the Carribean fan! ;)

David Hall said...

Gmom, Piglet, Mary

Yo! How are you beautiful flowers doing?

David Hall said...

NASS,

How things up north?

Mary said...

Hi Cakes!

Welcome back to the pretty side of the island -- although I must say you did us proud while on the dark side!

Mary

Piglet said...

Cakes

I'm feeling a little down tonight, but better since you showed up calling me a beautiful flower! :)

Enjoyed your post you-know-where. I think you out did you-know-who.

That takes some real verbal gymnastics!

gmommy said...

cakes,
This flower is doing the regular blossoming dance......wilted at times then fresh and blooming bright at others....

...did a small practice run on the process of "rocking" this weekend. Will be ready when I get to the back yard!!!
(Had my "muscles" to help out!) and we have been encouraging the moles to move along.....:)

oc said...

Cakes said:
Yo! How are you beautiful flowers doing?


oc says:

I know you weren't directly addressing me. But yeah, I'm doing fine!

just sayin'.
oc. :)

oc said...

Or should I say 'Juth thayin'.

Lindon said...

Cakes, I have missed you. Been missing your lyrical literary comments.

gmommy said...

OC....awwwwwww

David Hall said...

OC, you are like a beautiful cacti, thriving in the dessert (or is that desert, like ice cream cake, ha?), but don't rub it the wrong way.

gmommy said...

Mary,
I really hope you go "bowling" with us next time.
We are a great little rag tag team together!

Mary said...

Gmommy,

Your post of 10:38 PM really hit home with me. I couldn't agree more. Thank you for stating it so well.

Mary

Piglet said...

This little flower is off to bed.

G'night all.

David Hall said...

Well Lindon,

I stay out of the theological discussions, but Mike Bratton posted another critical piece about the NBBCOF on his blog, and have been seeking some reason with the receptive and battling the unreasonable over there.

That's mighty nice that you've missed me though.

Mary said...

Gmommy,

If you mean "bowling" as with one of those 16 lb. balls, then I'll have to pass. These antique bones could never survive such abuse. But thanks for the invitation!

Mary

ezekiel said...

Concernedsbcr,

There are numerous instances where Jesus healed blind and lame people. He even healed a servant for a man that had faith....

None of those instances took work...just faith.

But there was never an instance of healing that did not result in a new person....Blind can see, lame can walk...deamon posessed is clean, the leper was clean.....

When we are saved...The minute the Holy Spirit comes in...we are healed...a new person...without any work from us....and God gets the glory...

We glorify Him in the new body...with the new heart...

Easy...salvation. Saved by His grace and no other way.

If then we say that I still have leprosy (sin) or are still blind (just can't understand that Bible) or we are still lame......(parallized by sin) then we need to look back and see if we ever touched his robe....if we ever believed....in the first place.

Today, to many pulpits are teaching that we are saved, that we have touched the robe and Jesus has healed us while being blind, or being lepers with sin all over us or being parallized by sin.

We have all heard those folks that say "I am a sinner and I will always be a sinner". That is the same as saying I am a leper....and will always be one....but I touched Jesus' robe...I am saved..He made me a new creature...with a new heart...but I can still wallow in my leprosy.....I don't care what Ryrie says....or Hodges...If you are still covered in sin...you were never saved....

Bottom line...to accept Jesus but not accept the work that He did in you....His healing....is to reject Him.

So salvation is easy, being the new creature in Christ easy....and can only be done through His power. That in a nutshell is it....Jesus does all the work! To borrow from WTB...

) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

If you think you are saved and you are still the person you used to be....you may want to look it over again...Sounds a bit like you might be trying to sneak over that fence......rather than going through the Gate.

all2jesus said...

Ahoy Cakes,

I too enjoyed yer parley wi' Capt. B______, ya swab. Had a joust with 'im meself. Arrr.

gmommy said...

Mary,
Our rag tag team is a "peculiar" bunch...no muscular strength required....
you have just the right bones ....
:)

gmommy said...

Thanks Mary....
we have to continue to grow, learn , encourage and teach each other.....
in the middle of all the chaos and confusion.....
and sometimes take a little break for some laughs!

gmommy said...

ez,
ConcernedSBCER could never be a fence creeper.....she's a gate buster:)

ezekiel said...

gmommy,

It's my writing....

If we think we are saved and we are still the person we used to be....we may want to look it over again...Sounds a bit like we might be trying to sneak over that fence......rather than going through the Gate.

Or

If one thinks one is saved and one is still the person one used to be....one may want to look it over again...Sounds a bit like one might be trying to sneak over that fence....rather than going through the Gate....

No offense to Concernedsbcr intended...:)

32yrs@bbc said...

Piglet said:
I am just alarmed to see all these movements that seek to unite all faiths ...Rick Warren is doing it, the labyrinths have permeated all denominations, now this "walk" ...why the sudden urge (atleast for Baptists) to unite with all faiths? I know, it is part of the end times - but not something to be rushing toward.

If something is accepted by all denominations, this only gives me pause to be wary of it - not want to "get in on it".
-----------------------
"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise and shall show signs and wonders to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect"
(Mark 13:22)
The context of this Scripture is the Great Tribulation. However, I believe it is also a warning for us today. The spiritual waters are growing increasingly muddy and it is even more important now that we get into the Word, which is our plumb line, and get the Word into us.

As to joining a movement because other faiths are doing it, that is walking on a slippery slope.
Dr. Rogers used to say: "If everyone is doing it then it is probably wrong." The broad road to destruction is always crowded.

I have not had time to study the Faith Walk but from what little I know, a lot of red flags are up. Why is it necessary to have some kind of "spiritual" - (BELOVED, BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, BUT TEST THE SPIRITS WHETHER THEY ARE OF GOD; BECAUSE MANY FALSE PROPHETS ARE GONE OUT INTO THE WORLD"
I John 4:1)- walk to build up your faith or intensify your relationship with Christ or other believers? That type of thinking is saying the Word of God is not sufficient - we need to add to it.
A very slippery slope, indeed.

Delivered By Grace said...

concernedSBCer said...
Okay, truthseekers....I have a serious question. All the discussion yesterday and today about salvation has been a little over my head. This is what I have always thought:

Scriptures says to have the faith of a child....therefore I think that the initial choice to believe is fairly easy. Now, I do believe that the Holy Spirit draws us (in my case, He dragged me!) but I believe the initial decision was as simple (and as difficult) as knowing I sin and knowing it grieves God and then knowing that He sent his Son to pay the price for my sin.

Now, you guys are better at the verbiage, but I think that's the first step.

Then, I think that "line" to a relationship with God is open because the Holy Spirit is then in us, so I think the growing follows.

Unfortunately, I believe the Parable of the Sower that some seeds just don't grow, some grow for a while and whither...all signs of people we know who have made a public confession of faith. Then of course there are those seeds that grow strong. I think this is a picture of the changes that happen within a Christian.

We have had a rash the last 2 years of "re-baptisms." These involve children that were young when they made their profession of faith. Some adult starts saying stuff like....."You didn't know what it entailed" and You weren't sure of your course in life"....blah, blah, blah....

Bottom line, those kids believed exactly what they were capable of believing at that time, then God continued to work with them and they grew and understood more. But I don't believe it meant they weren't saved to begin with.


I guess all this to say that I believe at any age you can accept God's gift of salvation by understanding you are a sinner and Jesus died to pay the price of your sin and rose again to defeat death. Then you commit your life to loving Him and studying and praying, etc. So then you grow in righteousness and knowledge and continue to love your Father and your Savior even more. (Who in a long term loving marriage doesn't love your spouse more today than the day you go married? Of course you do! You have built trust, shared memories, taken care of him/her, etc. That's how it is....Our belief grows more the more time we spend with Him.)

Anyway, all this to say that I don't want anyone reading this blog to think becoming a Christian is hard. Behaving and living like a Christian is sometimes the challenge. However, with faith in God, your walk as a Christian can be accomplished to His glory.
Response

My friend. You say that this talk of salvation is over your head. On the contrary, after reading you post, you are very wise and nothing is over your head. You have stated in a few paragraphs what I have spent a week trying to explain. Salvation is not hard. God never intended for it to be. Salvation is a gift. Walking with the Father is a life long process. Sure, we will all continue to stumble. God never promised us that we would be perfect. But He did promise us that we would be forgiven, regardless. While I will not be nearly adept as you in delivering my message, I would like to add one small thing to the readers who may never join in by writing but follow this blog intently. Accept God's gift of salvation. Sbcer has summed up the way to salvation above. Study the Bible, pray, and keep your heart open to the Holy Spirit. And if you stumble, fret not. All of God's children fall now and then. Remember, you are not perfect, just forgiven. Walk with God and strive to live like Christ every day. The closer you walk with Him, the less you will fall prey to sin. Worshipping God through a relationship with Christ is not a chore. It is total joy and peace.

And let no one drive you away from the serenity of a personal relationship with Christ by convincing you it is a chore to be saved from your sins.

larry said...

Mary,

I do not believe I have passed along false information, but if I have I apologize.

To the best of my knowledge, Faith Walk International was started at Faith Baptist Church, which is where the name 'Faith' Walk comes from.

This is from the page you linked to:

"In 2001 the Lord began to draw people who had attended many different weekends to Faith Baptist Church in Bartlett, Tennessee. In less than two years the Lord brought people from Tres Dias, Walk to Emmaus, Discipleship Walk, Presbyterian Cursillo and Kairos. As we began to pray together the Lord began to show us that almost every denomination had started a version of the Cursillo movement, with the exception of Baptist."

If you go to the 'faithwalkinternational' website and download the sign up form you'll notice the return address in in Ellendale, TN (or Bartlett, in other words).

I'm not sure why you believe it's part of a larger movement?

sickofthelies said...

sigh

Another old friend has disappointed me.

We were discussing Claude Thomas and the situation at GBC and the response was " well, maybe he has repented" and " he who is without sin blah blah blah"

WHAT HAS HAPPENED to people that they are so willing to overlook sin in the pulpit? From the depth of my being, there is NOOOOOOOOOOO
way that I could overlook a man stealing from his sheep.

If I get out to the parking lot and I realize that Home Depo did not charge me for the $1 item, I go back in, even in the freezing rain, to make sure that I have paid for that item and that I will not be seen as " stealing" by the ONLY one that matters, and that is Jesus!!! Now if I can hold myself accountable for a $1 item, how can I not hold a pastor accountable for stealing a lot more than $1 from his OWN sheep?

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

has the world gone mad???????

Becky said...

Pitlet said, "I am feeling a little down tonight..."

Churchmuse replies,

Piggy, I don't know what has you down, but I can probably guess. You are sad because you see things in the light of Truth. That is not easy to bear. I am so proud of you, and I treasure your friendship.

I am grateful to have all of you for my forever friends. You are a such a comfort to me.

What do we do now? I honestly don't know. However; Jesus promised to be with us unto the end of the age. He is still our Shepherd.

Talk about uncharted waters, we are there. If Dr. Rogers were here, he would remind us to "Look up." I can picture him standing there pointing his finger to heaven, shaking his head as if to say "yes" and saying softly, "Look up!"

New BBC Open Forum said...

Sevier Heights Baptist Church in Knoxville voted Sunday night to call Jon Tyner as their new minister of music.

concernedSBCer said...

Churchmouse: what a wonderful post at 8:47.

Piglet: I'm sorry you are feeling down. :(

To everyone else...iron sharpens iron and I'm thankful for the challenges I receive here.

Becky said...

Good for Jon Tyner! Their gain is BBC's loss; Jon is a gifted musician.

allofgrace said...

I'm of the opinion that Southern Baptists are the worst paedobaptists in the world. They are quick to accept "professions" from the very youngest of children without much council...all to be able to report those numbers. It's a dangerous thing to be presumptuous about someone's salvation, especially young children. The rash of re-baptisms is nothing new. It's been going on a long time...ever wonder why?...I've known of people being baptized 3 or more times...dedicating and re-dedicating over and over...why?...we've been preaching a gospel which places salvation in the hands of the sinner, and one can only doubt when their confidence is placed in something "they did". Salvation is of the Lord. When will we learn that as a denomination?...until we do, we'll continue to see the same pattern repeated over and over. No doubt many of the "deceived" at BBC as they've been referred to on this blog, are among those who professed faith in Christ at a very young age and whose confidence is in the fact that many years ago they walked an aisle and prayed a prayer, signed a card, and were baptized...and that's what they count on....they look back rather than looking at the present. The Bible warns repeatedly about such presumption. Some food for thought.

sickofthelies said...

Larry,

Just curious..are you at BBC? If so, how long have you been there?

If so, how can you write what you do, and yet, still sit under the apostate pastor? You have to KNOW that he does not care for you, or any of the other sheep. He is in the BUSINESS OF RELIGION...PERIOD.

So how do you square your own faith which you have displayed here, and that which is being crammed down your throat by the self serving pastor with his own agenda?

Just wonderin

sickofthelies said...

HOw is the Faith Walk different from church " summer camp" for kids?

Someone posted that it is feeding the feeling that His word is not enough...but yet, we send kids off to church camp to be revitalized with Jesus, to hear guest speakers, to play and fellowship with one another.

Is Faith Walk not just a short version of a " summer camp" for adults?

I'm not trying to argue, I'm really just curious.

imaresistor said...

Larry,

You know...I have read all this. I am convinced this faith walk is heresy. But aside from that...my question is: if it casts the slightest doubt, if it is the least bit questionable that it dishonors God, then why do it? What is the point? I found a blog on this subject where the attendees talked about silence being one of the main ingredients in the walk...I would run so fast from this. It is contemplative. Mysticism. If the first red flag goes up, then it needs to be abandoned. And you have numerous red flags. I have all the respect in the world for what is right...but this just isn't right. Again...I have to add this is just my opinion. But the bottom line is why jeopardize people?

Becky said...

sickofthelies said...
HOw is the Faith Walk different from church " summer camp" for kids?

This is part of a movement that started within the Catholic church. It is somewhat secretive. It is about Catholic mysticism being imported into the Baptist faith. We don't need that. We don't need prayer statiions. We need an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ on a one to One basis. No one should tell you what to pray. Christ gave us His model prayer.

During the Reformation, men died trying to break away from the rituals of Catholicism. Now, we want to go back there? Not me.

gmommy said...

what concernedSBCer explained about salvation included the statement....
"this is the first step".

we don't "strive" to live like Christ in our own old flesh.
That flesh....is gone.
Crucified on the Cross...we have a new heart.....and out of that heart comes a love of God's Word and a desire to be obedient to HIs Word.
The Holy Spirit is in us teaching us....
we keep an "open heart" by confession and repentance
to the Lord of our lives.
Sin breaks down the fellowship with the Lord.....we,with our new heart, are convicted by our sin...we hate it...and we don't want to be out of fellowship with our Lord.......the more we know Him thru His Word,
the more we love Him,
the more we love Him and fellowship with Him...the more we become Christ like.
But nothing is EASY about the Christian life.
We are not of this world....this is not our home.
We cannot depend on others to spoon feed us on Sundays .....especially today!
This is not a feel good path.

I have watched my son go off to college and get out of fellowship with the Lord...get comfortable with sins that the world tells him are OK because we just can't be perfect.
He has been miserable...THank God!

We need God's Word...undiluted...Everyday....like we need air and water to thrive and grow and blossom into the beautiful vessel Jesus sees when He looks at us and sees us pure and whole.
On this earth...this path is not easy ...but when we belong to the Lord....the narrow gate is our only way.
If it is EASY for us to sin and not be convicted or miserable or disciplined.....we are severely out of fellowship with the Lord or maybe not God's child.
We are set a part!!!!
FOR the Lord...not the world...not ourselves..not for comfort or happiness!
I love that!
It's not comfortable or easy but it is precious.

gmommy said...

allofgrace,
good food for thought...
I am grasping that more and more.
Nothing is about us. If we just begin to grasp the Holiness of God, we are over ourselves.
We have experienced how pride is at the core of all these things wrong in our churches.
How did we get hung up on ourselves???
We have bought into this teaching and it is keeping us from the freedom we have in Christ...myself included!
My daughter used to say she was a Worm when she began to really study God's Word.
I didn't get it then but the light bulb is getting brighter.
I look forward to getting OVER myself!!!!

imaresistor said...

Let me just add this:

These rituals, and that is what they are, run parallel to rosary beads. The meaning is the same. Now, if you can see yourselves with rosary beads in hand as a part of your lives, then maybe you need to become a part of this. I am talking labyrinths, prayer stations, prayer walks, faith walks...they are all the same thing! Do you research...read up on it. Understand and know. You would probably never, ever consider using the rosaries, but if you are engaged in these things being discussed...you are engaged in the same thing. Think about it.

gmommy said...

Ima,
I think the blog girls need to take a little road trip before the summer is all over!

ok..maybe some blog guys can come too.

Becky said...

Ima,
Thanks for that illustration. That IS a good example of what we are talking about.

I have never prayed with a rosary, but I have been with others who did. I believe the prayers were more or less rote. (Hail Mary, full of grace...etc)

MOM4 said...

Why does a Christian need a "walk" of any kind? What happened to a plain old revival? One with Christ honoring music and Holy Ghost preaching? THAT'S what this nation needs! You remember! The ones that last a week - every night - Sunday thru Saturday!

jmo

Lin said...

"I'm of the opinion that Southern Baptists are the worst paedobaptists in the world."

We insist that baptizing babies is heresy but we encourage a 5 year old to walk the ailse and think they are 'saved'. That child may grow up to be an adult with false assurance because of a 'tradition'.

concernedSBCer said...

GMommy....yes, we do! Ima.....get ready!

larry said...

I feel like I'm in danger of becoming a 'target', so this will be my last time to address this issue.

sotl,
Not that this is relevant, but I was at Bellevue for about 10 years. My involvement included several Baptist churches including Faith and Kirby Woods. Although I do not currently attend Bellevue, my letter is still there and like many others I will return when changes are made.

Acts 2:42 says that the early church devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. That's a description of the Faith Walk.

If you have a concerns with 'summer camp' you will indeed have a problem with Faith Walk, because they're very similar.

imaresistor,
I'm not going to try to convince you, because I know I won't be able to. Psalm 46:10 says "Be still and know that I am God." Silence before God is a biblical concept.

Do you have a formal 'quiet time?' Do you ever just sit still and think about the promises of God? Do you ever just think about what He's done in your life thus far? If so, you've experienced the 'silence' that Faith Walk participants are referring to. It bears no resemblance to the 'inner silence' of transcendental meditation, and the two shouldn't be confused.

You have a point about causing weaker brothers to stumble, and I suspect that some changes will have to be made in the future.

As I said, this will be my last time to address this. Anyone with further concerns should contact the church. The number is 901-386-4785, and they'd be happy to hear from you.

imaresistor said...

Larry,

You seem like a very good and kind man. I understand you believe in what you are addressing. That has nothing to do with my love for you as a Christian brother. I will keep you in my prayers as I hope you will me.

Maybe you might reconsider leaving the blog...

concernedSBCer said...

Larry: I appreciate the way you have addressed this issue. Whether we, in the end, agree with each other or not, I'm of the opinion that the exchange was healthy. We are all concerned about BBC, the SBC, and the state of "the church" as a whole. God is moving and opening eyes. I suspect this exchange was for that purpose. I appreciate your attitude and I, too, hope you will stay on and discuss other things with us.

We really are fairly nice folks just trying to follow God's Word in all aspects of our lives.

:)

larry said...

ima,

Since I've joined the NBBCOF conversation I'll be around. I meant I wouldn't talk about the Faith Walk anymore, not that I'm leaving.

There are plenty of other things to talk about.

sickofthelies said...

It sounds, to me, like the Faith Walk is like a retreat.

I dunno...just thinkin outloud.

imaresistor said...

Larry,

Indeed there are...just plenty of things to discuss. This is good news...will look forward to more discussions with you joining us as a regular.

Our objective is the same...to glorify Godl!

Ima

32yrs@bbc said...

sickofthelies said...
sigh

Another old friend has disappointed me.

We were discussing Claude Thomas and the situation at GBC and the response was " well, maybe he has repented" and " he who is without sin blah blah blah"

WHAT HAS HAPPENED to people that they are so willing to overlook sin in the pulpit? From the depth of my being, there is NOOOOOOOOOOO
way that I could overlook a man stealing from his sheep.
----------------------
SOTL, I agree with you. However, Claude Thomas says he is innocent and the people who know him well and know the circumstances say he is innocent (like Bob Sorrell). Only the Lord, the righteous Judge, knows if he is innocent or guilty. The end of the story has not been told yet. But, because there is a cloud of suspicion hanging over him at this point in time, I do not think it was wise to invite him to stand behind the pulpit at GBC. The church is still fragile and the people are still licking their wounds from the battle they've come thru. And as Dr. Rogers used to say:
"Satan does not give up anyone or anything without a fight." GBC needs our prayers as it struggles to become viable again. Satan does not give up easily!

I will say this on Thomas' behalf:
his message Sun. was one of the best I've heard. Great expository preaching with much spiritual depth.

imaresistor said...

Paul Washer

ezekiel said...

deliveredby grace said,

"And let no one drive you away from the serenity of a personal relationship with Christ by convincing you it is a chore to be saved from your sins."

And I would add for the benefit to whomever this message reaches....

Because when you are saved from them...you don't have to live in them anymore....

Christ did the work on the cross...set you free from them....So you can serve a righteous and pure master...where your fruit is righteous and pure.

Rather than continue to serve sin in your life and produce more sin...unrighteous fruit....

One cannot serve two masters...Serve Jesus...the LORD or serve sin...Jesus' yoke is lighter..

Come to Me, and I Will Give You Rest
25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.[g] 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

The yoke of sin in one's life is heavy and gets heavier every day....stop sinning, repent and serve Jesus...pray for him to save you from your sin...and for a personal relationship with Him today....

Who are you going to serve?

Mat 6: 19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where(AH) moth and rust[e] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 "The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

24 "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Serve Baal/ Serve Sin?

Or serve God

concernedSBCer said...

32+: After seeing the Auditor's report, I would say that where there is a lot of smoke, there is certainly a fire.

I agree.....being cautious would seem to be a prudent course.

johnthebaptist said...

Mike Bratton has asked me to appologize to BePatient because I told her that she was just using part of the scriptures and not all the Bible. I also told her I didn't think she was listening to the Holy Spirit.

I will think about apologizing although I really am not inclined to. I feel I spoke the truth.

Also, if it was anyone else but Mike that asked me to...Mike, the arrogant- wise in his own eyes Bratton who is always speaking harshly of all who post here.
If it wasn't for this blog, Mike wouldn't have anything to talk about except maybe wrestling and the pope. Both of which he knows little about, I feel.
Nass, maybe you can check it out to see if you can claim Mike as a dependent on your taxes since he is so dependent on your blog to give his credibility.

Credibility and MB blog just doesn't seem to go together.

Lin said...

"Only the Lord, the righteous Judge, knows if he is innocent or guilty. The end of the story has not been told yet. But, because there is a cloud of suspicion hanging over him at this point in time, I do not think it was wise to invite him to stand behind the pulpit at GBC."

Did you read the entire audit? My goodness, did you read the 41 page independent accountants report? There are page after page of kickbacks, bonuses paid on credit cards, fancy meals charged to the church, home construction charged to the church, hiring relatives for outsourcing or 'research', using church funds for his private non profit..ad nauseum. We are talking serious money here. Did you see the letter from the deacons?

So innocent or guilty of what? ...all 16 of the accounts of misuse of funds or ignoring church policy? Or, just one of them? What we see here is a man who had a private fiefdom and continual funds to do whatever he wanted.

This reminds of the people who yelled about Bill Clinton being innocent until proven guilty. The only problem was that there were just too many things to overlook. And in the end, finding a powerful leader 'guilty' on all accounts is just too painful and upsetting so we go the easy route. No impeachment or in the case of Claude Thomas...a 'joint statement' for resignation. How nice. More sweeping under the rug so we can say, 'move on'. Folks, how many times did you hear 'move on' from Clinton apologists?

His old pal, Paige Patterson decides to help him out by 'creating' a new position for him at SWBTS as 'chapel chaplain' and special assistant to the president. But that proved embarassing so Thomas 'rejects' the offer. (sure) Then his old pals have to find him some preaching gigs to keep the money flowing...lawyers cost money, you know. So how much did GBC pay Thomas for preaching? Be interesting to know. Or, is that member information confidential, too?

Why can't people see through all of this? Why do we keep throwing God's money after these 'self-anointed kings'? Oh, I forgot, they are just 'mistakes'.

By the way, I have worked with atheists who have more integrity than these guys. Seriously.

Rant over.

Lin said...

JTB, Reading Bratton reminds me of listening to Paul Begala for those 8 long years.

imaresistor said...

Appearing of Slice of Laodicea today:

God Helps Those Who Cannot Help Themselves by Jeff Noblit

Powerful and moving to say the least.

Watch this video or listen to the CD. You will be glad you did.

socwork said...

By the way, I have worked with atheists who have more integrity than these guys. Seriously.

I definitely echo your sentiment here. I've had the same experience.

The behavior of these "Christians" makes me think of this:

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

ezekiel said...

deliveredbygrace said,

Walking with the Father is a life long process. Sure, we will all continue to stumble. God never promised us that we would be perfect. But He did promise us that we would be forgiven, regardless. While I will not be nearly adept as you in delivering my message, I would like to add one small thing to the readers who may never join in by writing but follow this blog intently. Accept God's gift of salvation. Sbcer has summed up the way to salvation above. Study the Bible, pray, and keep your heart open to the Holy Spirit. And if you stumble, fret not. All of God's children fall now and then. Remember, you are not perfect, just forgiven. Walk with God and strive to live like Christ every day. The closer you walk with Him, the less you will fall prey to sin. Worshipping God through a relationship with Christ is not a chore. It is total joy and peace.

And let no one drive you away from the serenity of a personal relationship with Christ by convincing you it is a chore to be saved from your sins.

7:13 AM, July 25, 2007



Sounds good don't it? Is it scriptural?

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Lev 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God [am] holy.


2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:

3:19 Whose end [is] destruction, whose God [is their] belly, and [whose] glory [is] in their shame, who mind earthly things.)


1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


James 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.


Col4:12 Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.


Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

youthmomma said...

Lindon,

After I woke up from being lulled to sleep by the drivel I had to shake my head. Um, this was a video explaining a session of a conference by willocreek that confused people. BAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAA! Ok then. In case any of you missed it, go "enlighten" yourselves at this link http://youtube.com/watch?v=2YfrXytc5eE Seriously, I don't know what to say.

On another note, we are soooo excited for Jon Tyner! Another BBC loss that's for sure.

concernedSBCer said...

Lin: Your 3:32 rant was exactly on the money (no pun intended)! I am SO sick of folks thinking he was just accused! We don't know the whole story??? WHAT IS THAT ABOUT????? The receipts are there...the paycheck stubs, the hiring of famly members....... I read it too and it made me physically ill. Innocent until what????? The evidence is right there. He misused GOD'S MONEY.

Okay, end of my rant too.

New BBC Open Forum said...

ATTENTION SHEEPS!

IT'S PAST TIME FOR A NEW THREAD, AND NOW THERE IS ONE. SO PLEASE MOVE UP!

Thank you,

NBBCOF

New BBC Open Forum said...

Will the person from GBC who just posted a comment using the screen name "WHY" (in all caps) please change your screen name to something else and repost your comment in the new thread? All comments with that screen name (because of a banned poster using the same screen name who refuses to go away) go into a "special" file and I don't always see them.

Lin said...

Youthmama, Did the video cause 'disequalibrium' for you? :o)

So, what did you think of Kimball's hairdo? Don't you think it detracts from his message? :o) I think it is called a pompadour or something. In any event, I have seen rock formations lower than that.

youthmomma said...

Lin

I think the pompadour caused disequilibrium and the drivel just caused confusion. Just say'n.

ezekiel said...

1 Peter 4

1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

3For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

7But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

8And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

9Use hospitality one to another without grudging.

10As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

11If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

15But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

16Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

And who says this? None other than the rock that Jesus built His church on.....

Mat 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Hebrews 12:4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (Sound easy?)

Hebrews 12:6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. (Sound easy?)

Hebrews 12:10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. (Any easier?)

Hebrews 12:14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
(Not getting any easier?)

Hebrews 12:25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29For our God is a consuming fire.

Only through His Grace are you called, saved and sanctified....Without His Grace....one will never be able to endure the refining and purifying that has to take place in order to be saved....

Malachi 3:3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

A Warning.......

Malachi3:13Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee?

14Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?

15And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

16Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Brandi said...

Greetings...

I'm not sure if anyone will stop by this particular thread any more, but it was brought to my attention that there was discussion regarding Faith Walk.

I've been overwhelmed trying to read through everything, but I would like to offer anyone the opportunity to email me about Faith Walk. There were too many questions and comments to address here.

My name is Brandi Hayes. I attended an Emmaus Walk and have worked with Faith Walk for several years. In fact, I am on the board for the ministry. I've been a member of Bellevue for 15 years and I've sung in the choir for as long. Unfortanately, my time there has drawn to a close, but I say all this so you would know who I am.

There were some who had questions and I will try to email...hope you don't mind.

Thanks and again, if you have questions, please feel free to email me. I will gladly post answers if you like, but I don't get the opportunity to read through these or follow up immediately.

Blessings,
Brandi

New BBC Open Forum said...

THERE'S A NEW THREAD. PLEASE MOVE UP!

Thank you,

NBBCOF

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