Thursday, July 12, 2007

It's the "spirit" of the thing...

This is a continuation of the previous thread.

On Sunday, November 5, 2006, there was a marathon BBC deacons' meeting that started in the afternoon, recessed for the evening service (which was followed by the second "information meeting" where we were told how the deacons had "reviewed" the credit card receipts and determined that the pastor had done nothing wrong), then resumed after the service and didn't end until around 11:00 p.m.

Here is a clarification of what transpired during this meeting and afterwards which resulted in the deacon loyalty oath:

1. Near the end of the approximately 6-hour meeting, an idea (not a formal motion) was proposed which referenced supporting the pastor. This was thought by many deacons to simply mean "support" as in prayer, service to the body, etc., not blindly "swallowing and following" the pastor no matter what and certainly not agreeing to signing a statement that, to many members, had all the appearance of pledging an oath to a man. In any case, it was this idea regarding support of the pastor which was passed unanimously (meaning there were no dissenting votes) by those who remained in the meeting. As one deacon put it, after spending nearly six hours in that emotionally-charged, grueling, frustrating, heart-wrenching meeting, he would have agreed to almost anything just so the meeting could be adjourned.

2. A few days later the deacon body received an e-mail containing the "loyalty oath" as reprinted in the previous topic heading. For many deacons, this motion hardly resembled the simple "support" motion voted on in the meeting, and all the deacons were being required to sign it. Yet no one could remember that motion being read word for word at the meeting. However, deacon chairman Chuck Taylor stated in his e-mail that all who were present unanimously approved this motion.

3. It was later learned from some of the deacon officers that the final wording of the motion was drafted after the meeting. Apparently, the deacons' meeting was taped and the opinions and viewpoints expressed by certain deacons that evening were used as a basis for the final wording of the motion. Those supporting the motion claimed this represented the "spirit" of the original motion that was voted on in the meeting. This is where a number of deacons disagreed, and they did not sign the oath. In fact, only about 80 of the 180-plus deacons signed it. Many serious concerns had been expressed during the meeting, and it was felt these were completely ignored by those who drafted this new motion.

4. Finally, Chuck Taylor announced that the deacon officers had decided not to bring the motion to the congregation that following Sunday but to postpone it until a later time. By the way, Mr. Taylor, it's been over 8 months now, and we're still waiting....

Questions to ask:

1. Why was the wording of the motion finalized after the meeting and then claimed in an e-mail sent to the deacons that it was unanimously approved at the earlier meeting of the deacon body? Should not this finalized version of the motion have been brought back to the deacon body for discussion and a proper vote?

2. Was the objective to try and intimidate the deacons who had serious concerns about various issues into signing a document that was considered by many to be a clear violation of Scripture?

3. What authority did the officers have to postpone a motion they claimed had been voted on unanimously by all the deacons (we know it wasn't)? What's the point of voting on motions at deacons' meetings if the officers can rewrite or postpone them later?

4. What was the real reason the officers decided to postpone the motion? Was it because of the positive feedback taking place between the Communications Committee and various groups and individuals in the church as they claimed, or was there another reason?

5. Who all was involved in drafting the loyalty oath?

Concerned members are encouraged to contact deacons who remained until the end of this meeting to see if their version of these events matches those here.

784 comments:

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allofgrace said...

John McArthur=hyper-calvinist...lol. And I never heard Adrian Rogers say anything negative about John McArthur. In fact, the first time I ever saw John McArthur was at a Bible Conference at guess where?...BBC. I've heard McArthur preach for several years now, and I've never heard him give credit to John Calvin for anything other than something John Calvin may have said. Your Calvinistic/hyper-Calvinistic paranoia is something out of the Twilight Zone, Ms. Billie.

32yrs@bbc said...

Miss Billie, I was at Bellevue the Sunday night Dr. Rogers invited
John MacArthur to speak. At that time Dr. MacArthur warned the church that God's hand of blessing was being removed from this nation because of its sin of turning away from God. Very prophetic. I doubt seriously Dr. Rogers would have invited him to speak to our church if he was overly concerned about his Calvinism.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Please excuse the lengthy Brattonesque cut-and-paste nature of this...

Billie wrote:

"I guess my comments have too much truth in them for you to allow them to be posted!"

I'm sorry. I must have missed the "truth" for all the ranting.

"By the way; remember that John MacAuthor is a hyper calvanist who Dr. Rogers disapproved of. He told me personally that he wouldn't recommend a John MacArthur study bible because he believed that John MacArthur was misleading people and encouraging them to place far too much praise on John Calvin."

I'm not familiar with John MacArthur's teachings (although I do know how to spell the man's name), but I think I'd listen to him and make up my own mind, not judge him solely on what Dr. Rogers (supposedly) said. You accuse people of following a man. What are you doing? Have you ever even listened to one of John MacArthur's sermons?

"I hope to someday meet you, shake your hand and look into your eyes. I would love to see the one who has apparently set himself up as king over the Bellevue Baptist Church Open Forum where all members can come and discuss the issues that we all face with what is going on at our church. What a joke!!!!"

I bet you would! I'd be afraid I'd come away with claw marks in my hand. I bet you'd be a lot nicer in person though. What exactly do you think you'd be able to tell by looking into my eyes?

"I believe you are a dictator placing yourself in charge of spreading the lies and rumors that YOU want to be told in order to destroy the work of the Lord that is going on in BBC. I do not like your attitude I hope to someday see for my own self if your eyes are filled with love and compassion or anger and seeking revenge for having lost the battle over getting Brother Steve out of the pulpit."

Oh, you give me way too much credit. My dear misguided lady, the "battle" we're waging isn't over a man -- not any man. It's much bigger than that. It's this.

"I have issues with you that I would love to settle but of course you don't want to discuss that or else you would not omit ALL of the voices desiring to be heard.
You accuse Brother Steve of being a dictator? What are you doing?"


Ma'am, I have no "issues" with you. I don't know you from Adam. What "issues" could you possibly have that you need to settle with me?

Let me remind you this is a blog, not a church. I am not a pastor. I am a lowly blog administrator. There's a big difference. "Our" voices aren't being heard at BBC. Why should every Tom, Dick, and Billie who want to come here and beat on us be allowed that opportunity?

"King" NASS

Lynn said...

BTW, in the Commercial Appeal, Bellevue cracked the top 50 most influential churches in the US. Unfortunately, considering who #1 and #2 are in the list, Bellevue's influence is only for the wrong reasons now :(.

32yrs@bbc said...

Miss Billie, I do not know you from Adam, either. In person, you may be a very nice lady. But on this blog you are spiteful and vindictive and for what reason, I cannot conceive. I am concerned that what's in your well is overflowing and spilling out on the young women whom you teach. Besides your less than gracious attitude towards those with whom you differ, my chief concern is your theology which seems a bit warped. Not good for someone who teaches a BSF class. I pray you are rightly dividing the Word of Truth when you are in your classroom on Sundays, and that you are keeping your not-so-gracious attitude to yourself.

Here is a word from The Word for you to think upon:
"LET ALL BITTERNESS, AND WRATH, AND ANGER, AND CLAMOR, AND EVIL SPEAKING BE PUT AWAY FROM YOU AND BE KIND TO ONE ANOTHER, TENDERHEARTED, FORGIVING ONE ANOTHER, EVEN AS GOD FOR CHRIST'S
SAKE HAS FORGIVEN YOU."
(Ephesians 4:31,32).

aslansown said...

Billie:
When discussing a Bible study I was leading in Hebrews (which Dr. R. took a full hour out of his schedule to give to me at a moment's notice)he asked which commentary I was using. I replied that I was using John Macarthur's commentary on Hebrews. Dr. R told me, "If John MacArthur said it, then nothing else needs to be said."
This was seven years ago and although I am sure that he has had time to change his mind on the subject, he has not.

BTW (by the way for you and those in Rio Linda)MacArthur is NOT a hyper Calvinist. It would do you well to actually study Calvinism or the writings of Calvin himself. You will find that Calvin only codifies in a simplistic form what Augustine had written extensively on some 1,200 years previously. Oh yeah, he also echos Paul. You may know him, he wrote 13 books but I believe that the actual number is 14.

You really should decide before hand just how much shoe leather is to your liking. It will save on mouthwasth and toothpaste.

You partake in a great error in making a secondary isssue a test of fellowship. You will not find any justification for this attitude in the Scriptures. What you have expressed is spiritual hubris (go look that one up). You may even want to refer back to Dr. gaines sermon this past Sunday morning. He referenced 1Cor. 9:22. He told us that we are to change ourselves for all men (no, he said we were to change ouselves for the lost, it was the scripture that said ALL MEN.
Anyway, the scriptures call us as Augustine said, "In essentials unity, in nonessentials liberty and in all else charity."

concernedSBCer said...

Lynn: Who were #1 and #2?

Lin said...

"By the way; remember that John MacAuthor is a hyper calvanist who Dr. Rogers disapproved of. He told me personally that he wouldn't recommend a John MacArthur study bible because he believed that John MacArthur was misleading people and encouraging them to place far too much praise on John Calvin."

Miss Billie! This is shameful. Dr. Rogers had John McArthur to speak at BBC!

Your ignorance about what McArthur teaches is appalling. You need to do some homework before you post.

I need to make sure of something. Are you teaching Bible Study Fellowship classes? The international one as in this: http://www.bsfinternational.org/Home/tabid/53/Default.aspx

Lynn said...

Concerned....


#1 was Willow Creek

#2 was Saddleback (Warren's church)

Osteen was also in the top 10 too.

New BBC Open Forum said...

This is the article Lynn and others have been talking about. I read it in the paper this morning and forgot to post the link. (Thanks to the person who sent me the link and reminded me!)

Lin said...

Miss Billie wrote: " I do not like your attitude I hope to someday see for my own self if your eyes are filled with love and compassion or anger and seeking revenge for having lost the battle over getting Brother Steve out of the pulpit."

Miss Billie, This comment concerns me greatly. You would base truth on what you see in someone's eyes?

Perhaps you have not read about Ted Bundy's murderous career. Those who knew him said he was the most delightful, charming person you would ever meet. There was nothing sinister in his eyes to warn his victims.

All we have is scripture to go by, Miss Bille. This entire scandal boils down to the fact that you, Gaines and the others left at BBC do not believe scripture. Read 1 Timothy 2 very closely and please tell me why your 'anointed king' did not know that PW was not qualified to stay on as minister of prayer for 5 seconds after he learned he molested his own son.

oc said...

rowdy lynn said:

#1 was Willow Creek

#2 was Saddleback (Warren's church)

Osteen was also in the top 10 too.


oc says:

What a shock. Probably just before Hollywood, Disneyland and Six Flags, the other entertainment leaders in America.

Just sayin'.

oc.

concernedSBCer said...

Aslansown said: "You really should decide before hand just how much shoe leather is to your liking. It will save on mouthwasth and toothpaste."

That is worthy to be published
in a quote book!

concernedSBCer said...

Willow Creek and Saddleback.....let's not GROW Christians, let's just make them comfortable. *sigh*

What a shame.

sickofthelies said...

billie said:

guess my comments have too much truth in them for you to allow them to be posted!


sotl says:

Billie, you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the, oh, nevermind.

New BBC Open Forum said...

SOTL,

That wasn't particularly graceful or charming, but it was right witty.

Junkster said...

From the Commercial Appeal article, "Bellevue in Top 50 of Survey"

"We praise the Lord for this, and we're thankful the Lord has blessed the church we have here," said Dr. Steve Gaines, Bellevue's senior pastor. "But I think it represents an accumulation of the work done here, not just for the last year, but for decades."

How nice that SG is willing to place those previous decades on equal footing to his own time at BBC! And some folks say he lacks humility!!

westtnbarrister said...

32yrs@bbc said...
Miss Billie, I was at Bellevue the Sunday night Dr. Rogers invited
John MacArthur to speak. At that time Dr. MacArthur warned the church that God's hand of blessing was being removed from this nation because of its sin of turning away from God. Very prophetic. I doubt seriously Dr. Rogers would have invited him to speak to our church if he was overly concerned about his Calvinism.

6:41 PM, July 17, 2007



Dr. Rogers also invited Dr. Al Mohler, a leading Baptist "Calvinist," to speak at Bellevue on more than one occasion. Due to the efforts of Dr. Rogers and other conservative Southern Baptist leaders, Al Mohler was installed as President of Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville, which is once again a conservative Bible teaching seminary after years of heavy liberal, even neo-orthodox, influence.

It was due to Dr. Mohler's influence that I began to study the Doctrines of Grace some years ago. At first I adamantly resisted them. But, the more I studied, the more I realized the Bible teaches over and over again that as a result of the fall (Genesis 3), man is spiritually dead, ergo incapable of any good work (choosing Christ) on his own. The Bible is replete with the message that God is sovereign in salvation.

I recognize many disagree and I have no intentions of arguing with brothers over this, but I also don't want to allow ignorant bloggers to mischaracterize the Doctrines of Grace. Most who comment on them, including Southern Baptist pastors, present a mere caricature of "Calvinism." For instance, referring to John MacArthur as a hyper-Calvinist betrays massive ignorance of Dr. MacArthur's beliefs. I rather suspect that term has been tossed around by some who do not realize it has a specific meaning in the theological world. As a Calvinist myself, I vehemently denounce hyper-Calvinism for the destructive force that it is.

If memory serves, Dr. Vodie Baucham preached at Bellevue during Awesome August in 2006. He is another leading intellectual who ascribes to Calvinism. Is he a heretic? Was Charles Haddon Spurgeon a heretic? Were the founders of the SBC heretics? Finally, was the apostle Paul a heretic?

Lynn said...

Call me dumb here, but the calvinist talk has me baffled.

Does it really matter who's a calvinist and who's not?

Billie said...

allofgrace said...
John McArthur=hyper-calvinist...lol. And I never heard Adrian Rogers say anything negative about John McArthur. In fact, the first time I ever saw John McArthur was at a Bible Conference at guess where?...BBC. I've heard McArthur preach for several years now, and I've never heard him give credit to John Calvin for anything other than something John Calvin may have said. Your Calvinistic/hyper-Calvinistic paranoia is something out of the Twilight Zone, Ms. Billie.

6:36 PM, July 17, 2007

Dr. Rogers sent me an email regarding MacArthur and I have a copy of it somewhere and as soon as I locate it I will send out a copy. I have his statement in writing. You are wrong about MacArthur the same as you are about many other things. Why don't you ask MacArthur his stand on Calvinism also Al Moyler and their agenda is to convert the Baptist to 5 pt Calvinism. Dr. Rogers was opposed to their beliefs and would not permit them to teach their views from the pulpit of BBC. What I am saying can easily be verified.

For those who wonder if I teach according to what the Word says, I wish to invite you to come decide for yourselves. So far I teach exactly like Brother Steve. My ladies comment every week how our class lines up with what they are hearing in the pulpit.
Am I human? Yes. Am I honest and transparent regarding questions asked regarding the stand that you have taken? yes I am and they all can tell you what I have said is "blogging God's servant Brother Steve is a sin and one that I pray none of them participate in speaking negatively about him."

If John MacAuthur was my pastor, but he is not, I would also say the same thing. I have listened very carefully to MacAuthor I have no desire to become a member of his church and yes, when someone tells me that they are getting their theology from him. I tell them to be very cautious because he is a 5 pt Calvinist and we have been taught by both Dr. Rogers and Brother Steve (both excellent theologians) that Southern Baptist have always stood against the teachings of at least 2-3 of the 5 points.

I teach it is best to steer away from Calvinism and embrace the complete teachings of Jesus Christ. We are Christians and there is no need of claiming any other name.

This is a statement based upon many many years of study and prayer: "God in His sovereignty chooses to limit His grace based upon man's willingness to receive it" ---God is in complete control but He does not force His love upon anyone.
MacArthur teaches that God selects certain people for salvation and others for hell> completely different theology which has repercussions.

We are in the beginning of a study on Nehemiah and I can identify with our Pastor, regardless of where I go to teach God shows me that it is normal to have opposition and we are not to be discouraged but teach with greater boldness. I am so very thankful to God for a Pastor who has weathered great opposition and by doing so has taught and encouraged me to do the same.

I'll keep on teaching and you continue to blog at the end of the story both of us will learn the absolute Truth is Jesus Christ and we can say this or say that but if someone leaves our company and does not see Truth (Jesus Christ) standing high above us and above all we say; then we have much to be ashamed of before God. OH Well!
Just come in for a visit; I would love to meet you.

Billie said...

Al Moyler (Mohler)

Junkster said...

Rowdy Lynn said...
Call me dumb here, but the calvinist talk has me baffled.

Does it really matter who's a calvinist and who's not?


Hey, that question makes you sound like a Calvinist! :)




Q: What did the Calvinist lady say after she fell down the stairs?
A: Boy, I'm glad that's over!

aslansown said...

Rowdy lynn:
Calvanism is a secondary issue and should have no bearing on fellowship or the problems we are dealing with at Bellevue.

BT wants to make it a devisive issue and shows all how bigoted and ignorant she is every time she brings it up. It is her verbal club by which he attempts to beat us into submission.

Pardon me Mrs T, but our slip-up is showing.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Media coverage of Steven Haney story:

The Commercial Appeal's coverage is here and here.

Channel 3

Channel 5's coverage is here, here, and here.

Channel 24

EthicsDaily.com

sickofthelies said...

Rowdy Lynn said...
Call me dumb here, but the calvinist talk has me baffled.

Does it really matter who's a calvinist and who's not

sotl says:

Apparently, Billie Tapp foams at the mouth over who MIGHT be A Calvinist.

Hey, Junkster...that's a title for a book for you to write:

"You MIGHT be a Calvinist IF:"

oc said...

rowdy lynn said:

Call me dumb here, but the calvinist talk has me baffled.

Does it really matter who's a calvinist and who's not?


oc says:

No, it matters not. It matters only that He who judges is the Christ. He will judge, not Calvin, not your pastor, not your momma, not jon estes, not miss Billie, or anyone else.
ONLY JESUS.

just sayin', and believin', and willing to die on that.

oc.

aslansown said...

Billie;
If your teaching lines up with Dr. Gaines, then you believe that not all scripture is to be followed. That some scripture is given as merely an outline or suggestion in how to deal with sin. Or that we can pick and choose which qualifications for servants of the church as outlined in scripture are applicable.

Better yet, you may believe that church discipline is not necessary for leaders that commit sexual sins.

Or that the pastor is not subject to any form of discipline or oversight.

Anyone else want to jump in here?

concernedSBCer said...

Billie said:"So far I teach exactly like Brother Steve. My ladies comment every week how our class lines up with what they are hearing in the pulpit."

Wow, that's the stuff that causes nightmares.............

Lynn said...

"If John MacAuthur was my pastor, but he is not, I would also say the same thing. I have listened very carefully to MacAuthor I have no desire to become a member of his church and yes, when someone tells me that they are getting their theology from him. I tell them to be very cautious because he is a 5 pt Calvinist and we have been taught by both Dr. Rogers and Brother Steve (both excellent theologians) that Southern Baptist have always stood against the teachings of at least 2-3 of the 5 points."


Uh...the only thing Steve Gaines has taught Bellevue is how it is ok to protect a pedophile and beat the sheep. And twisting scripture is another thing Gaines is good at. Given the choice....I'll take MacArthur over Gaines any day of the year. At least MacArthur has integrity. Something Gaines and his mafia don't have.

aslansown said...

One more, Mrs. Billie.

Maybe you also use the Holy Scriptures to beat the sheep into submission.

Words that should give comfort are slung like Saul's spear.

The call for unity in the spirit is made into a net for uniformity.

Biblical authority is used as a shield from responsibility to look out for and feed the sheep.

This Word we love is used to justify creating a profession out of the Pulpit intead of a ministry.

Go ahead and continue to teach these same things and see how many stick around.

Lynn said...

Billie said:"So far I teach exactly like Brother Steve. My ladies comment every week how our class lines up with what they are hearing in the pulpit."

Wow, that's the stuff that causes nightmares.............


Memo to Billie....your following MAN not Christ.

Junkster said...

From the Ethics Daily article that NASS linked to:
Police said members of Immanuel Baptist were shocked at the arrest, and members of Grace Memorial were just as upset. "They had no clue that would resurface at Immanuel," Detective Barney Tyrney told news media.

The idea of predators in ministry is unthinkably horrendous. But one has to wonder at members of a church who fire a minister for viewing porn on a church computer who would then later be surprised that the man had the same problems (and worse) at the next church! It doesn't say they had no clue that he was at another church, just that they had no clue that the same problems would resurface there. God help us all!

sickofthelies said...

LADIES IN MISS BILLIE"S CLASS:

FLEE FROM EVIL!!! RUN!!! RUN AWAY!!!!

Junkster said...

sickofthelies said...
Hey, Junkster...that's a title for a book for you to write:
"You MIGHT be a Calvinist IF:"


Only two problems with that:
(1) "Might" and "Calvinist" don't quite go together.
(2) I wasn't foreordained to write that book. (Unless, of course, at some future point I do, which would mean I was after all.)

oc said...

concernedsbcer said:

Billie said:
"So far I teach exactly like Brother Steve. My ladies comment every week how our class lines up with what they are hearing in the pulpit."

Then concernedsbcer said:
Wow, that's the stuff that causes nightmares.............

10:22 PM, July 17, 2007


oc says:

RUN, AND RUN FAST! And yes, I'm yelling. It's the call of the cult. "Are you lining up with me?"

The question should be, "Are you lining up with the Lord?'

A wee bit of difference, don't you think?
Think about it.

Just sayin',
oc.

socwork said...

This may be long. My apologies ahead of time.

Dr. Rogers sent me an email regarding MacArthur and I have a copy of it somewhere and as soon as I locate it I will send out a copy. I have his statement in writing.

All due respect to Dr. Rogers, but who cares? What does the Bible say?

You are wrong about MacArthur the same as you are about many other things.

Example please?

Why don't you ask MacArthur his stand on Calvinism also Al Moyler and their agenda is to convert the Baptist to 5 pt Calvinism.

What evidence do you have that their motives are to convert everyone in the SBC to Calvinism? I would like to see it.

Dr. Rogers was opposed to their beliefs and would not permit them to teach their views from the pulpit of BBC. What I am saying can easily be verified.

Then why have quite a few posters on this blog already confirmed that both MacArthur and Mohler have preached in BBC's pulpit at the invitation of Dr. Rogers?

For those who wonder if I teach according to what the Word says, I wish to invite you to come decide for yourselves.

Thanks for the invitation.

So far I teach exactly like Brother Steve.

And you are proud of this?

My ladies comment every week how our class lines up with what they are hearing in the pulpit.

And you are proud of this?

Am I human? Yes. Am I honest and transparent regarding questions asked regarding the stand that you have taken? yes I am and they all can tell you what I have said is "blogging God's servant Brother Steve is a sin and one that I pray none of them participate in speaking negatively about him."

Where does the Bible teach us to allow anyone to teach un-questioned?

If John MacAuthur was my pastor, but he is not, I would also say the same thing. I have listened very carefully to MacAuthor I have no desire to become a member of his church and yes, when someone tells me that they are getting their theology from him. I tell them to be very cautious because he is a 5 pt Calvinist and we have been taught by both Dr. Rogers and Brother Steve (both excellent theologians) that Southern Baptist have always stood against the teachings of at least 2-3 of the 5 points.

You are free to not be a member of MacArthur's church. Given what you have said, I have a pretty good hunch you don't have an accurate understanding of what Calvinism is and what it is not.

I teach it is best to steer away from Calvinism and embrace the complete teachings of Jesus Christ. We are Christians and there is no need of claiming any other name.

Again, this statement leads me to believe you are steering people away from a strawman rather than a set of doctrines.

This is a statement based upon many many years of study and prayer: "God in His sovereignty chooses to limit His grace based upon man's willingness to receive it" ---God is in complete control but He does not force His love upon anyone.

Is God in control or is He not? The Bible says none of us seeks God.

MacArthur teaches that God selects certain people for salvation and others for hell> completely different theology which has repercussions.

1. Can you show us where he teaches this? 2. If he does, can you explain what he bases this teaching on in Scripture?

We are in the beginning of a study on Nehemiah and I can identify with our Pastor, regardless of where I go to teach God shows me that it is normal to have opposition and we are not to be discouraged but teach with greater boldness. I am so very thankful to God for a Pastor who has weathered great opposition and by doing so has taught and encouraged me to do the same.

Ok.

I'll keep on teaching and you continue to blog at the end of the story both of us will learn the absolute Truth is Jesus Christ and we can say this or say that but if someone leaves our company and does not see Truth (Jesus Christ) standing high above us and above all we say; then we have much to be ashamed of before God. OH Well!
Just come in for a visit; I would love to meet you.


Everyone will learn "in the end" that Jesus is the truth. We would do well to learn this before the end. We all have much to be ashamed of before God, that is why we need Jesus. That said, not sure what this has to do with the rest of your post.

concernedSBCer said...

Junk: The SBC has GOT to put together some sort of database that protects other churches from pastors with these sexual perversion issues. The embezzlement situations are bad, but these morally deficient pastors scare all of us even more.

sickofthelies said...

billie says:

So far I teach exactly like Brother Steve. My ladies comment every week how our class lines up with what they are hearing in the pulpit.

SOTL says;

ROFL!!!! I hate to be the one to tell you this as you sit there grinning like a cheshire cat, BUT, that ain't nuthin to be braggin about!!!

I would not want to be lined up with a man who gave safe haven to a sexual predator and who sexually abused his adolescent son..but then..I'm normal and you...well....let's just say that anyone that considers SG someone to emulate is a french fry short of a happy meal.

allofgrace said...

Ms. Billie,
I honestly don't think you know the difference between hyper-Calvinism and hyper-activity. I AM a Calvinist..yes..all 5 pts. I'm quite familiar with John McArthur's doctrine..and Calvin's for that matter..and Luther's...you should check your Southern Baptist history before you go saying Baptists have ALWAYS rejected 2-3 points. Just ain't so. And by history...i don't mean just the last 50 yrs...it goes back just a bit further than that. Try looking a few of these guys up...maybe you'll be enlightened a tad...JP Boyce, John Broadus, HP Mell, JL Dagg, Basil Manly, RBC Howell...there's a few...that should get you started. Know what you're talking about first hand before you go shooting from the hip...I liked Dr. Rogers as much as anyone...but he was not the final authority.

Delivered By Grace said...

First of all, let me say unequivocally that I in no way endorse this Billie's rantings and what I would call unchristlike writings.

But John MacArthur does sway toward the Calvinist philosophy. He is a firm believer in the "lordship salvation" theology which has been soundly rebuked by Charles Ryrie, Zane Hodges and Charles Stanley. Lordship salvation is that Jesus cannot be considered a person's savior without simultaneously being lord of the person's life, which is demonstrated by the gradual purification from sin and the exercising of good works. This is a theology that was predominant in the Massachusetts Bay Colony Puritans belief system. A Puritan believed that his works were a necessary compomnent of his salvation and his works separated him from the unredeemed.

While I philosophically do not believe in the lordship salvation theology, I still wonder if it is possible for a redeemed believer to live a totally carnal life.

As Ephesians 2:8-10 stated:

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The cause-effect relationship of these verses can easilly be misinterpreted. Now whether or not MacArthur is skewing the cause effect relationship or if he actually believes that good works are necessary for salvation, I am not sure. But there is no question that his views smack of Calvinism. I have trouble believing that one who has been redeemed by Christ's blood would totally ignore Ephesians 2:10 where it clearly states that God has prepared all the redeemed for good works, and would choose to live a life separate of God's teachings. But the goods works talked about in this chapter are an effect of salvation, not a cause of salvation.

Works are a byproduct of salvation, not a component.

sickofthelies said...

True or False:

Sunday School teachers at BBC have to sign a pledge that they will not drink...

Which brings us to Billie Tapp and her late night posts.

sickofthelies said...

I"m confused.

I thought that Sunday School teachers were supposed to teach from the Bible and follow Christ..

But what I am gathering is that it's a good thing to ignore the Bible and just do what SG does and what he says.

Who, exactly, are they following over there at BBC?

Apparently one ss teacher that we all know is proud as punch of the fact that she blindly follows SG.

New BBC Open Forum said...

SOTL wrote:

"Which brings us to Billie Tapp and her late night posts."

That's how ugly rumors get started. Stop it! :-)

Junkster said...

Delivered By Grace said...
But John MacArthur does sway toward the Calvinist philosophy. He is a firm believer in the "lordship salvation" theology which has been soundly rebuked by Charles Ryrie, Zane Hodges and Charles Stanley.

Having read both MacArthur and the others on this topic, I could respond that MacArthur has soundly rebuked their mis-named "Free Grace" views. See how that works? You think Ryrie is right, others say MacArthur is right ... neither side would agree that the other has "soundly rebuked" anything.

But the goods works talked about in this chapter are an effect of salvation, not a cause of salvation.

It is a misrepresentation of MacArthur's teachings to say he makes works a cause of salvation. It is not, however, a misrepresentation of Zane Hodges teachings to say he claims it is possible for a person to be truly saved an never demonstrate any fruit of salvation.

Based on your own comments on Ephesians 2, I think you are closer to MacArthur's position (which you refute) than you are to Ryrie and Hodges (which you claim to espouse).

allofgrace said...

"Calvinism" is not a philosophy first off..it's doctrine...Bible doctrine I might add..secondly...anyone who knows McArthur's teaching knows that he's a Calvinist...so what?

No one "makes" Christ Lord...He IS Lord..thus anyone who receives Him must receive Him as Lord since that's who He is. Any Jesus who is NOT Lord is a Jesus other than the one in the Bible. He is referred to as LORD way many more times in Scripture than He is Savior. Someone who is Lord commands...He doesn't request. He's King..and a King has subjects, not equal partners. Jesus is not divided up into a buffet table where you can pick and choose what you will have of Him. I can't find in Scripture where it says to accept Christ as your personal savior. It does however teach plainly that we're to bow to Him as LORD. "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry.." Mssrs. Hodges, Ryrie and Stanley will have to change what Scripture says to change those facts.

Junkster said...

How about we set aside the Calvinism discussion and get back to other matters? I enjoy a good theological debate, but this ain't the place for it. Right, NASS? :)

concernedSBCer said...

So, with all this talk of Calvinism vs. ....well....Miss Billie, I guess it all ties into Jon's post earlier....and I submit to you that, while it is interesting to debate, the answer is still the same.

The answer is Jesus because He's the ONLY way to Heaven. Everything else is interesting to talk about, but is extra information.

Junkster said...

allofgrace said...
Ms. Billie,
I honestly don't think you know the difference between hyper-Calvinism and hyper-activity.


Zzzzzziiinnnngggggg! :)

I think I now have a formal definition for my own personal mental/theological disorder ... ADHC -- Attention Deficit Hyper Calvinism! It means I would be a hyper-Calvinist, if only I had the proper attention span.

Delivered By Grace said...

junkster stated:

It is a misrepresentation of MacArthur's teachings to say he makes works a cause of salvation. It is not, however, a misrepresentation of Zane Hodges teachings to say he claims it is possible for a person to be truly saved an never demonstrate any fruit of salvation.

Based on your own comments on Ephesians 2, I think you are closer to MacArthur's position (which you refute) than you are to Ryrie and Hodges (which you claim to espouse).

Response:

I think if you read MacArthur's works it is clear that he considers works to be a component of salvation. He has clearly stated that repentence is necessary for salvation. While I admit I have a personal problem understanding why a person who has been convicted of his sin by the Holy Spirit would even worry about salvation, I still have found no place in the Bible that disputes the fact that God's gift of salvation is free and available just by accepting that Jesus did pay the penalty for all sin. I see no place in Jesus's teachings that He only died for the sins that we repented of.

Maybe the feelings that I have are merely feelings for jealousy. I have a yearning to walk closer with Christ and I cannot understand why anyone who says he has accepted Jesus as his saviour would not choose to walk the same path. I cannot imagine why anyone would even choose to accept Christ as their saviour without repenting. But those are only my feelings. According to the Bible, though, I have to accept that salvation is solely of "free grace". So, yes, I side with Ryrie and Hodges in spite of my personal feelings.

So I believe that salvation is a gift of God, that it is given by Him by way of free grace. And regardless of my feelings, I see no prerequesites of repentence, works or striving to walk closer with Him. I just don't see where it is possible for someone to accept salvation without repentence and striving to walk closer with Him. Like I said, maybe I am just jealous thinking that it is possible.

Therefore I accept Ryrie and Hodges' belief over MacArthur. My inner conflict with my feelings do not make me side with MacArthur philisophically.

Delivered By Grace said...

allofgrace stated:


No one "makes" Christ Lord...He IS Lord.

I agree 100% with this statement.


thus anyone who receives Him must receive Him as Lord since that's who He is.

I do not see that in Jesus's teachings even though in my heart I believe it to be true.


Any Jesus who is NOT Lord is a Jesus other than the one in the Bible. He is referred to as LORD way many more times in Scripture than He is Savior.

But He is referred to as both Lord and saviour. He is both equally.


Someone who is Lord commands...He doesn't request. He's King..and a King has subjects, not equal partners. Jesus is not divided up into a buffet table where you can pick and choose what you will have of Him. I can't find in Scripture where it says to accept Christ as your personal savior.

I would not dispute this. He is the saviour of the world. But I do personally choose Him to save me.

It does however teach plainly that we're to bow to Him as LORD. "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry.."

Actually, the Bible says that ALL will bow down to Him as Lord. This includes all mankind, the believer and the unbeliever.

Mssrs. Hodges, Ryrie and Stanley will have to change what Scripture says to change those facts.

It is whether or not you take Jesus's teachings literally without supposition as these gentlemen do.

Lin said...

"If your teaching lines up with Dr. Gaines, then you believe that not all scripture is to be followed. That some scripture is given as merely an outline or suggestion in how to deal with sin. Or that we can pick and choose which qualifications for servants of the church as outlined in scripture are applicable.

Better yet, you may believe that church discipline is not necessary for leaders that commit sexual sins."

Aslansown, I have asked Miss Billie the Bible teacher, since the first day she started commenting here about 1 Timothy 2 in relation to Gaines and PW. She will not respond to the scripture.

But based on all her comments in the past which much read like the latest one, my concern is that she is teaching a BSF.

If she truly loved the Word she could not ignore 1 Timothy 2 and all the other scriptures that prove Gaines is a false teacher who ignores scripture, twists it and may not even know it very well.

Her ignorance about John McArthur is appalling. I certainly hope she can produce that e-mail from Rogers she is bragging about because Westbarrister is right...Rogers, as a leader in the resurgence, was instrumental in Mohler becoming President at SBTS. One has to wonder why he would allow such men in his pulpit? Or as a seminary president? The bottom line is that election cannot divide the fellowship of true believers.

Her understanding of Baptist History is also lacking in facts.

But we are talking about a woman who thinks she can look into someones eyes and detect good or evil instead of looking at fruit that is obvious. Such types are easily deceived. And it grieves me greatly.

Lin said...

"But John MacArthur does sway toward the Calvinist philosophy. He is a firm believer in the "lordship salvation" theology which has been soundly rebuked by Charles Ryrie, Zane Hodges and Charles Stanley."

Doctrine of Grace is NOT a philosophy. Romans 3.

" Lordship salvation is that Jesus cannot be considered a person's savior without simultaneously being lord of the person's life,"

Jesus IS Lord of our lives whether we know it or not. You are misunderstanding...there are people who think you can be saved without Jesus being Lord of your life. God gave Jesus full power and authority over all. Read Phil Johnson's blog...he is McArthur's editor and has written on this subject and answered the opponnets ad nauseum.

For anyone to think they can be saved without acknowledging Jesus as Lord and Savior is beyond me. How can they get that out of the NT?

" which is demonstrated by the gradual purification from sin and the exercising of good works."

What you are describing is sanctification and fruit which will be evident in a believer. Matthew 7-23, 1 John...

"This is a theology that was predominant in the Massachusetts Bay Colony Puritans belief system. A Puritan believed that his works were a necessary compomnent of his salvation and his works separated him from the unredeemed."

Where are you learning this stuff? No sweetie, they believed fruit came from salvation through sanctification. A good tree will bear good fruit. It is a plain as day in scripture.

"While I philosophically do not believe in the lordship salvation theology, I still wonder if it is possible for a redeemed believer to live a totally carnal life."

NO!! Read 1 John! We cannot walk in darkness and be saved. Read Matthew 7 where Jesus is teaching about all the professing Christians who will say, Lord Lord and He will not 'know'.

"The cause-effect relationship of these verses can easilly be misinterpreted."

No they cannot. You are confusing 'fruit' and 'works to salvation' which is popery.

" Now whether or not MacArthur is skewing the cause effect relationship or if he actually believes that good works are necessary for salvation, I am not sure."

he does not and has even written a book on this! Buy it!

" But there is no question that his views smack of Calvinism."

So do Pauls in Ephesians!!

" have trouble believing that one who has been redeemed by Christ's blood would totally ignore Ephesians 2:10 where it clearly states that God has prepared all the redeemed for good works, and would choose to live a life separate of God's teachings. But the goods works talked about in this chapter are an effect of salvation, not a cause of salvation."

No one but a heretic would teach that good works is a cause of salvation...like a Catholic. You have been getting bad information from somewhere. A person who has been saved totally by Grace will produce fruit.

"Works are a byproduct of salvation, not a component."

That is right but you are subscribing beliefs to people that are not correct. And that is NOT nice.

There are things I do not agree with McArthur about but I happen to know he does NOT teach works salvation.

But, I will tell you, I read a Bible study of Charles STanley's not too long ago where he taught (with no scripture back up, I might add) that we must forgive ourselves to really be saved. So I can see where he would have a problem with Jesus being Lord of All. Self forgiveness is false teaching and negates the Cross.

all2jesus said...

Slinging labels is a time-honored tactic of those without the truth in their corner. It's easy. Stumped for a reply to those opposed to homosexuality? Call them "homophobes." Losing your argument in favor of abortion? Call your opponent a "Bible-thumping fundamentalist." Flumoxed by John MacArthur's incisive and irrefutable commentary on the need for pastors to be above reproach? Brand him a dreaded Calvinist.

Here's a discussion question for you: Why did Jesus teach in parables?

Delivered By Grace said...

Lin stated:

there are people who think you can be saved without Jesus being Lord of your life.

Response:

No, there are people that believe that acceptance of salvation and Jesus being Lord of ones' lives are independent teachings of Jesus.


Lin:

God gave Jesus full power and authority over all.

Response:

Yes, no doubt, and that ultimate authority will include Satan and his followers. He is Lord of all, but that is independent to the free grace that God has provided us.

Lin:

For anyone to think they can be saved without acknowledging Jesus as Lord and Savior is beyond me. How can they get that out of the NT?

Response:

It is simple, so simple that we try to make it harder. In John 3 Jesus lays down the foundation for salvation. He says believe. He does not say repent. He does not say repent and bear good fruit. He is Lord, no doubt. John 3 does not say acknowledge Him as Lord. He says believe on Him.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

For anyone to read the NT and think it is any harder than just believing is what is beyond me.

John 4
1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3When the Lord learned of this, he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.
4Now he had to go through Samaria. 5So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6Jacob's well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about the sixth hour.

7When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will you give me a drink?" 8(His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)

9The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.)

10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

11"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?"

13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

15The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."

16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."

17"I have no husband," she replied.

Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."

19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."

26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

27Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, "What do you want?" or "Why are you talking with her?"
28Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29"Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ?" 30They came out of the town and made their way toward him.

31Meanwhile his disciples urged him, "Rabbi, eat something."

32But he said to them, "I have food to eat that you know nothing about."

33Then his disciples said to each other, "Could someone have brought him food?"

34"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. 35Do you not say, 'Four months more and then the harvest'? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. 36Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. 37Thus the saying 'One sows and another reaps' is true. 38I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor."

39Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me everything I ever did." 40So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41And because of his words many more became believers.
42They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

No where in this chapter does it mention the Samaritans believing in Jesus being the Lord of their lives. No where in this chapter does it mention the Samaritans repenting of their sins. It does say that they believed in Him. So Jesus says in John 3 that if you believe in Him you will receive salvation. In John 4 it says the Samaritans believed in Him. Can you honestly believe that at that instant in time, the Samaritans had not received salvation. If not then why is John 4 even included in the Bible?

Lin:

What you are describing is sanctification and fruit which will be evident in a believer. Matthew 7-23, 1 John...

Matthew 7:23 refers specifically to false prophets who give themselves away by the fruit they bear. It has nothing to do with santification. Actually it is quite the opposite. It describes the fruit from bad trees. 1 John teaches us the blessings of walking in the light and the blessings of purification from unrighteousness. This is what we should strive for as followers of Christ. It is an independent teaching of Christ.

Lin:

" But there is no question that his views smack of Calvinism."

So do Pauls in Ephesians!!

Response:

Do you actually believe that Paul taught all 5 points of TULIP?

Total Depravity - This is true of all men that reject the Holy Spirit. The mission of the Holy Spirit is to convict man that he is sinful.

Unconditional Election - God has chosen who He brings to Himself. That would be all of mankind.

Now we get to the rubbish

Limited Atonement - The death of Christ provides salvation only for the ones that God has chosen for mercy. That, my friend cannot be found in any place in the Bible and certainly not in any of Paul's writings. Any one who teaches limited atonement is a bearer of false teachings and is a false prophet. We are warned of them in Matthew 7.

Irresistible Grace - The grace of God is irrestible to those that God has determined to receive His grace. In 45+ years of Bible study I cannot figure out where anyone could even conjure this up. It is taught by those wolves in sheep's clothing that Matthew 7 warns us of.

Perserverence of the Saints - While this is Biblical, it is surely not as presented in Calvinism. The Calvinist conclusion is that God has picked who He will grant grace to and that grace is irrestible to the elected. Therefore the elected have no choice but to be saved of their sins. Sorry but this belongs on the garden with the other fertilizer.

Lin:

No one but a heretic would teach that good works is a cause of salvation...like a Catholic. You have been getting bad information from somewhere.

Response:

Since I totally agree with you on this point I fail to see why you brought it up as a point of contention.

Lin:

A person who has been saved totally by Grace will produce fruit.

Response:

The Bible does not say that ALL believers will produce fruit. It states that God prepares each believer to produce fruit. Not producing does not cause a believer to lose his salvation. God may not be pleased with His nonfruit believers but He doesn't strip them of their salvation.

Lin:

"Works are a byproduct of salvation, not a component."

That is right but you are subscribing beliefs to people that are not correct. And that is NOT nice.

Response:

That was my statement and I did not mean to sound that I was attributing the converse to anyone.

Lin:

But, I will tell you, I read a Bible study of Charles STanley's not too long ago where he taught (with no scripture back up, I might add) that we must forgive ourselves to really be saved.

Response: If Charles Stanley said that then then I believe that he is mistaken. I have not seen that myself.

Lin:

So I can see where he would have a problem with Jesus being Lord of All. Self forgiveness is false teaching and negates the Cross.


Response:

I have noticed in previous posts that you have a habit of twisting peoples words. If a person says that belief is independent of Jesus being Lord of all, that is NOT the same as saying that Paul Stanley believes that Jesus is not Lord of all. As you accused me of earlier in you post:

you are subscribing beliefs to people that are not correct. And that is NOT nice.

Lin:

Self forgiveness is false teaching and negates the Cross.

Response:

I agree.

concernedSBCer said...

All2Jesus: I always thought Jesus taught in parables because
1) everyone loves a story and
2) people tend to shut down when accusations or directives begin

So... I thought parables were a way for Him to get his point across in a non-confrontational way.

Why do you think?

Jon L. Estes said...

Lin,

Would you please define how you are using "Lord" when you say:

there are people who think you can be saved without Jesus being Lord of your life.

and

Jesus IS Lord of our lives whether we know it or not.

I ask because there are many Christians who are choosing to not let Jesus be their Lord. Maybe out of ignorance, or rebellion, or carnality (a word scripture uses to describe a saved person living lost).

This choice does not make Jesus less than all He is (divine, holy, Son of God, Lord...) but it does not mean He will not allow mankind to live in their own vices.

One day all will call Him Lord, not all will call Him Savior.

Jon L. Estes said...

Lin:

But, I will tell you, I read a Bible study of Charles STanley's not too long ago where he taught (with no scripture back up, I might add) that we must forgive ourselves to really be saved.


I heard Stanley speak on this subject a few years ago and what I recall was his teaching that if God can forgive you, then you ought to forgive yourself. Let your assurance of your salvation be enough to let you know you can forgive yourself also. We don't have to go around defeated, we have been forgiven.

MOM4 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lin said...

deliveredbygrace, Every single point you have made is totally man centered. You have created a Jesus that is to your liking by proof texting and not taking scripture as a whole. Who is Paul writing to in Eph? Believers. Who is John writing to? Believers.

I am weary of folks like you who think people can say a prayer, be baptized, live any way they want and be saved. This is a lie from the pit of hell. It negates scriptural teaching that we are new creatures. Born Again. When we are saved God replaces our hearts of stone with a heart of flesh (Ez 36)

You said in the last thread that salvation is easy. As if denying self is easy! As if dying to self is easy! As if taking up the Cross and following him is easy! As if following Christ in Pakistan is easy! I decided then to ignore you. but I did not do a good job.

If you think we can be saved without true repentence then I have to wonder why John the Baptist? Why was Jesus' first teaching in Matthew and Mark: Repent? Why all the talk on forgiveness of sins? Why the Cross? Why the agony of Christ taking the Wrath of God reserved for us? Why: It is finished?

In Matthew 7 Jesus talks about bearing good fruit and those who do not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7 flows from Matthew 5. He is still talking to the same people...his disciples. His followers.

I will never convince you about anything. I just pray that those reading this blog will get into the scriptures and pray for the Holy Spirit to teach them.

But here is the deal...we are saved unto Christ. That is different than being saved from hell. That silly supersticious prayer we are told to say after walking the ailse is NOT fire insurance. (Now that is 'works' salvation!! say a prayer and be baptized and poof...you are saved. You may be but if your heart is not regerated and you are not changed to Abide in Him you are not.)

Our true salvation is 'to' an intimate relationship with Christ. We are new creations with regenerated hearts... Abiding in Him. Growing in Holiness. Salvation is a supernatural act.

And how do we know we need a Savior if we are not convicted of our horrible sin nature and that we are helpless to save ourselves?

I have a lot of empathy for your beliefs. I held them for so very long myself. I was very much at home in the seeker environment of easy believism. How on earth did I ever get past Romans 9 in those days? Romans 3?

If anyone reading this is concerned that they may not really be saved then I beg you to get alone for however long it takes and beg God to save you. Read His Word from cover to cover because our faith comes from the hearing of the Word. (Romans 10) And keep praying. The fact that you may be concerned about true salvation could be Him calling you out as His own.

westtnbarrister said...

all2jesus said...

Here's a discussion question for you: Why did Jesus teach in parables?

2:23 AM, July 18, 2007


There is nothing to discuss because Christ gave us the answer himself. He taught in parables to conceal the truth from the unbelievers. (See Mark 4:10-12) But believers were given the ability to understand the mystery of the kingdom (spiritual truth). He intentionally hid the truth from unbeliever "so that seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand; lest they should turn and their sins be forgiven them." Think about the implications of that verse.

Jon L. Estes said...

MOM4 said...

jon,
I am having difficulty believing that one can be saved and not recognize the Lordship of Christ. As you said, He IS Lord whether we acknowledge it or not; however, until you surrender your heart, mind and soul to that Lordship, I don't see how one can be saved. I can see how one (we all) can become carnal after salvation, especially when one is being fed by an apostate preacher (notice I did not say "pastor"), but show me where one can even be saved if they do not surrender themselves to Jesus as Lord and Saviour? By agreeing with God that we are sinners and accepting His Son as the payment for our sins, we HAVE to surrender ourselves to His will and acknowledge His Lordship to be saved.

9:27 AM, July 18, 2007


Recognizing Jesus as the Lord is not the same as letting Him be Lord of our lives. If He were Lord of, over, in and through our lives in everything we said, did or thought, we would never sin. We would live in complete obedience to His Lordship. God made us with minds to choose right or wrong. Any wrong choice made by a believer is a choice to not let Jesus be Lord of our lives. When we choose not to let Jesus be lord of our lives, we choose to live carnal. This does not diminish the fact that Jesus is Lord but does highlight the reality that we often refuse to allow Him Lordship in all areas of our lives.

Lin said...

Jon, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in most of your comment. You seem to go in circles changing your tune depending on the responses you get. So, I'll just pick out one thing...

"Carnal: (a word scripture uses to describe a saved person living lost)."

King James uses that word quite a bit. In other translations the word mostly used in those verses is 'flesh'.

So the question becomes, can a 'saved' person continue to live like a lost person and be saved?

You know, Paul writes about this in Corinthians...them being in the flesh and not spiritual. Infants in Christ. Romans 8 says the 'carnal' mind is emnity against God in the KJV. Here is what the ESV says:

6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Can we continue to be 'carnal' or in the 'flesh' which scripture teaches is hostile to God and still be saved?


What we do not know is how many people in that church in Corinth were saved. We always assume it is so but if we read the letters to the churches in Revelations, we have to back up and rethink that position. Look how far the church in Ephesus went down the tubes!

Rev 3:

4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

The letters to the churches are warnings...to all of us.

Where ALL the Jews saved in the OT because they were the chosen people?

Lin said...

"We don't have to go around defeated, we have been forgiven."

Jon, if we are still defeated after repenting and being forgiven of our sin and a new creation...something is deeply wrong.

I read the study Stanley wrote on forgiveness. We cannot forgive ourselves. Period. That is psychobabble new age feel good stuff. But, unfortuantly, it sells well.

imaresistor said...

Is it not ironic that Bellevue Baptist Church has found its place among the top 50 churches at this point in time? Close attention should be given to the company it keeps on that list!

Ahhh...but for the wisdom of men like this who understood:

"That very church which the world likes best is sure to be that which God abhors."...Charles Spurgeon

imaresistor said...

A must to make the top 50:

Conform to the world...period.

"There are some, in these apostate days, who think that the church cannot do better
than to come down to the world to learn her ways, follow her maxims, and acquire
her “culture.” In fact, the notion is that the world is to be conquered by our
conformity to it. This is as contrary to Scripture as the light is to the darkness."...Charles Spurgeon

ezekiel said...

Delivered by grace,

"It is simple, so simple that we try to make it harder. In John 3 Jesus lays down the foundation for salvation. He says believe. He does not say repent. He does not say repent and bear good fruit. He is Lord, no doubt. John 3 does not say acknowledge Him as Lord. He says believe on Him."

I think it is pretty clear from Heb 3 that what you teach is false. Trying to seperate as independant teachings, salvation and Lordship. It is clear that the Hebrews wandering in the wilderness were not saved as a result of rebellion......

So when you claim that you can be saved yet reject His lordship...you teach a lie....



Hebrews 3
Jesus Greater Than Moses
1Therefore, holy brothers,[a] you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, 2who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God’s[b] house. 3For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. 4(For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) 5 Now Moses was faithful in all God’s house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, 6but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.[c]

A Rest for the People of God

7Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,

"Today, if you hear his voice, 8do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,
9where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years.
10Therefore I was provoked with that generation,and said, 'They always go astray in their heart;
they have not known my ways.'
11 As I swore in my wrath,
'They shall not enter my rest.'"
12Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15As it is said,

"Today, if you hear his voice,do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."

16For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

The Hebrews of Moses' day had an intimate knowledge of God and proof of His existance. They followed a cloud and a pillar of fire through the desert, drank from rocks, walked through a sea, and saw all the signs and wonders of the plauges on Pharoh. YET THEY DIED IN THE WILDERNESS FOR UNBELIEF.

Today we have the WORD and the resurection of Jesus as proof, all his signs and wonders, the miracles, healing and all the eye witness accounts of it happening and we still have people teaching that all we have to do is believe...Apparently, if we look at scripture...Hebrews 3, we need to take a close look at the word "believe" and what it means to GOD. Not what we want it to mean...but what it means to LORD. King of Kings....Master....Savior

What you appear to be teaching or at least believing is that yoiu can claim salvation through faith, yet serve sin as master of your life...

ezekiel said...

delivered by grace,

John 15:16You did not choose me, but(AH) I chose you and appointed you that you should go and(AI) bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that(AJ) whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17These things I command you,(AK) so that you will love one another.

Jesus said this as well...

John 15:5I am the vine;(J) you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that(K) bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in me(L) he is thrown away like a branch and withers;(M) and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Yet you say that Jesus did not tell us to bear fruit...

"It is simple, so simple that we try to make it harder. In John 3 Jesus lays down the foundation for salvation. He says believe. He does not say repent. He does not say repent and bear good fruit. He is Lord, no doubt. John 3 does not say acknowledge Him as Lord. He says believe on Him.

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, crying out, Repent ( change your mind for the better, heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins), for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 4:16-18 (in Context) Matthew 4 (Whole Chapter)
AND THEN THIS.....

Matthew 18:3
And said, Truly I say to you, unless you repent (change, turn about) and become like little children [trusting, lowly, loving, forgiving], you can never enter the kingdom of heaven [at all].

Matthew 18:2-4 (in Context) Matthew 18 (Whole Chapter)

John the Baptist tells us to reepent and bear fruit....in preperation fot Jesus' coming....

Matthew 3:8
Bring forth fruit that is consistent with repentance [let your lives prove your change of heart];
Matthew 3:7-9 (in Context) Matthew 3 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 3:8
Bear fruits that are deserving and consistent with [your] repentance [that is, conduct worthy of a heart changed, a heart abhorring sin]. And do not begin to say to yourselves, We have Abraham as our father; for I tell you that God is able from these stones to raise up descendants for Abraham.
Luke 3:7-9 (in Context) Luke 3 (Whole Chapter)
Result pages:1

delivered by grace....you are confusing a lot of people....You come on the blog and tell us that you believe and desire a closer walk.....but then say that there is no need of repentance for salvation and that there is no need to bear fruit as a result of that salvation...

I don't know whether you are just decieved or attempting to decieve...

ezekiel said...

And while we discuss Lordship and Savior....to deny one is to deny both....

To reject one is to reject both...

Isaiah 43:3
For I am the LORD your God,the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I give Egypt as your ransom,Cush and Seba in exchange for you.
Isaiah 43:2-4 (in Context) Isaiah 43 (Whole Chapter)
Isaiah 43:11
I, I am the LORD,and besides me there is no savior.

Isaiah 43:10-12 (in Context) Isaiah 43 (Whole Chapter)

More here...

Lord and Savior

ezekiel said...

Sorry about the spelling folks...I can't type as fast as I want to.....

Just know that it is a mistake of the fingers..not of the heart....

Jon L. Estes said...

So the question becomes, can a 'saved' person continue to live like a lost person and be saved?

Absolutely... 1 Cor. 3:1-3 [1] And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. [2] I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; [3] for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

You seem to come close to saying one can lose their salvation if they sin habitually.

The Israelites spent 4o years in th edessert and never saw the holy land because of their carnality.I use this word because they were God's people the whole time, never did He say otherwise.

Paralleling that with the NT believer, then it would go to say...

I once toted the Lordship Salvation badge and beat people over the head with it until God showed me differently. What it lead me to become was legalistic, something just as dangerous as liberalism.

imaresistor said...

Put aside you debates, and listen to this:

Beware of False Teachers, One and Two

aslansown said...

This round goes to Jon and Billie for massive distraction points.

aslansown said...

Ima:
These sermons are why Johm MacArthur and his church did not make the top 50 list. He has no ability to salve itching ears. It appears that a constant diet of speaking The Truth in Love causes spiritual hives.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Next round!

ezekiel said...

Jon Estes,

Romans Romans 3:31 (New American Standard Bible)
31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? (A)May it never be! On the contrary, we (B)establish the Law.

You put a lot of weight on this, I think....

Romans Romans 5:19-20 (New American Standard Bible)

19For as through the one man's disobedience (A)the many (B)were made sinners, even so through (C)the obedience of the One (D)the many will be made righteous.

20(E)The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, (F)grace abounded all the more,

Yet totally ignore this...

Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God
1(A)What shall we say then? Are we to (B)continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2(C)May it never be! How shall we who (D)died to sin still live in it?

3Or do you not know that all of us who have been (E)baptized into (F)Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

4Therefore we have been (G)buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was (H)raised from the dead through the (I)glory of the Father, so we too might walk in (J)newness of life.

5For (K)if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

6knowing this, that our (L)old self was (M)crucified with Him, in order that our (N)body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

7for (O)he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now (P)if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

9knowing that Christ, having been (Q)raised from the dead, is never to die again; (R)death no longer is master over Him.

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

11Even so consider yourselves to be (S)dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin (T)reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

13and do not go on (U)presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but (V)present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For (W)sin shall not (X)be master over you, for (Y)you are not under law but (Z)under grace.

15What then? (AA)Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? (AB)May it never be!

16Do you not (AC)know that when you present yourselves to someone as (AD)slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of (AE)sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

17But (AF)thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that (AG)form of teaching to which you were committed,

18and having been (AH)freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

19(AI)I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just (AJ)as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For (AK)when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

21Therefore what (AL)benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is (AM)death.

22But now having been (AN)freed from sin and (AO)enslaved to God, you derive your (AP)benefit, resulting in sanctification, and (AQ)the outcome, eternal life.

23For the wages of (AR)sin is death, but the free gift of God is (AS)eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

ezekiel said...

Jon Estes said,

The Israelites spent 4o years in th edessert and never saw the holy land because of their carnality.I use this word because they were God's people the whole time, never did He say otherwise.

Paralleling that with the NT believer, then it would go to say...

I once toted the Lordship Salvation badge and beat people over the head with it until God showed me differently. What it lead me to become was legalistic, something just as dangerous as liberalism.


Actually the parallel to the NT would be something like.....

If you won't subject yourself, your flesh to the authority of Jesus and accept the deliverance from sin that He shed blood for and repent of your sins, put off the old man of sin and put on the new man of Christ you will die in your sin, way short of salvation just as the Hebrews died in the wilderness and the Jews died in Jerusalem....

Junkster said...

Jesus taught that repentance is necessary to salvation. So did His followers, including Paul.

Here are just a few passages that clearly state that Jesus' message of salvation (the "Good News") included repentance and that repentance is required for salvation.

One might argue just exactly what repentance entails, but it is absurd to claim that the Scripture does not teach that repentance is necessary for salvation.

Matthew 4:17
From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."


Matthew 11:20
Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.

Matthew 11:21
"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Mark 1:14-15
After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."


Luke 13:3 & 5
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Luke 15:10
In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

Luke 24:46-47
He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Acts 8:22
Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Acts 20:20-21
You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Billie said...

sickofthelies said...
True or False:

Sunday School teachers at BBC have to sign a pledge that they will not drink...

Which brings us to Billie Tapp and her late night posts.

10:55 PM

Reply:

True or false
1. Are the bloggers against our Pastor always sweet and nice with their comments to those who stand up against what they are doing as they so often claim? ________

2. Does smoking dope cause people to make accusations implicating their own deceptive hearts? ______

Comment one of our former Pastor's comments about gambling seems to fit here. "Gambling is a win lose situation someone has to lose in order for someone to win"

If both you and I desire to be in a win win situation we must seperate in order to pray and spend time with God. I am taking the example of Nehemiah and I am placing a spiritual wall between my self and you (corporately) with a GATE that can be opened and closed from the inside. I am taking the key to the lock and giving up as a sacrifice. (I am going against my human nature to continue to verbally battle over our issues with one another) God will have complete control of the key and should you knock on my gate I will have to go to Him before the gate can be opened.

We are in a win/lose situation and with these arguments. People who read this site have heard enough to make up their own minds and most have.
True or false:

When Jesus went away, did the Pharasees and His enemies think they had won? _____________

Did they win or did they actually lose? _______

The, "gate" a few days later was rolled away and He arose. Jesus is Lord and He will show up in His timing and reveal to the world the TRUTH!!!!

I am accumstomed to teaching adults and some of you who are not saved or spiritually mature will not grasp the spiritual application. Those who understand will say, "AMEN"


P S You can knock on my gate in room E346 at Bellevue. I have enough faith in my Lord to believe that I will know who you are by looking into your eyes>>>His Spirit identifies with His Spirit who dwells in me!

Billie

ezekiel said...

Warning from History to the Ungodly

Live it up, Guys!

What some seem to be teaching today is that Grace...God's GRACE has some how changed God's character...That if you have His GRACE you can live any way you wish and Salvation is still assured......Yet when you teach like this, you try to convince us that the God that destroyed His own people in the wilderness and the God that destroyed the Jews in Jerusalem is the same God that won't destroy us even when we commit the same sins and live in the same unbelief....

Malachi 3:6"For(N) I the LORD do not change;(O) therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed. 7(P) From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my statutes and have not kept them.(Q) Return to me, and I will return to you, says the LORD of hosts.

Hebrews 10:26For(AJ) if we go on sinning deliberately(AK) after receiving the knowledge of the truth,(AL) there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27(AM) but a fearful expectation of judgment, and(AN) a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28(AO) Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy(AP) on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one(AQ) who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned(AR) the blood of the covenant(AS) by which he was sanctified, and has(AT) outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said,(AU) "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again,(AV) "The Lord will judge his people." 31(AW) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I don't know about you Jon, but I had much rather stop sinning and abide in the Word than to outrage the spirit of grace by continuing to live life as a servant of sin...

Lin said...

"I once toted the Lordship Salvation badge and beat people over the head with it until God showed me differently. What it lead me to become was legalistic, something just as dangerous as liberalism."

I certainly pray that no one feels beat over the head with anything here. May only scripture in whole...in context teach us. It never ever occured to me that believing Jesus is Lord could be legalistic. But in these seeker friendly days, I guess it is so...

Funny Jon says until God showed him differently about Lordship...

...because that is exactly what happened to me. I thought I could be saved yet live like I was lost. But God showed me differently through a deep study of His Word.

Praise Him!!

1 John:

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
2.
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6whoever says he abides in him ught to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Lin said...

"I am accumstomed to teaching adults and some of you who are not saved or spiritually mature will not grasp the spiritual application. Those who understand will say, "AMEN""

That is a quote straight from Mary Baker Eddy. :o( Wonder if Miss Billie knows that?

But Miss Billie...if you are so spiritually mature...how can you ignore 1 Timothy 2? I have asked you about 4x now. Do you just ignore the parts you do not like?

New BBC Open Forum said...

SOTL,

You see, I told you to be nice to Ms. Billie! Now she's gone and built a wall (with a GATE!) between her and us "unsaved" bloggers and "sacrificed" the key. Now we have to "knock" on her "GATE" to uh... why would we knock on her GATE again?

Lin said...

Nass, You are killing me here with the 'theme music' :o)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lin,

Some days I just can't get that song out of my head. Know what I mean?

Jon L. Estes said...

Lin,

I am in no way seeker friendly type but I am a friendly seeker type, to the core.

John 3:16 ( as many other verses) does not promote Lordship salvation.

So if you sin, do you lose your salvation?

How can one sin when Jesus is their Lord? To sin is to let that sin be the lord of your choice, not Jesus.

A friend of God... I am, Jon

Been Redeemed said...

P S You can knock on my gate in room E346 at Bellevue. I have enough faith in my Lord to believe that I will know who you are by looking into your eyes>>>His Spirit identifies with His Spirit who dwells in me!

Billie

Ms. Billie,
How close have you come to Steve Gaines? Have you EVER looked into his eyes and attempted to have a conversation with him? Have you ever looked him in the eye and asked him about his reasoning behind retaining PW on staff? Have you ever looked him in the eye and asked him about his decision to fire God's ministers, especially Dr Whitmire? If not, WHY? If you can tell a lot by looking someone in the eye - Steve Gaines should blow you away!

Lin said...

"John 3:16 ( as many other verses) does not promote Lordship salvation"

It really helps to read the whole book but even the whole chapter would help in understanding:

John 3

1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him." 3Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God." 4Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blowswhere it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

For God So Loved the World
16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."
John the Baptist Exalts Christ
22After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. 23John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized 24(for John had not yet been put in prison).
25Now a discussion arose between some of John’s disciples and a Jew over purification. 26And they came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him." 27John answered, "A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. 28You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, 'I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.' 29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease."

31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. 33Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. 34For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

The whole thing is worth a good read.

Lin said...

"So if you sin, do you lose your salvation?"

Hebrews 10

26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1 John describes it as a 'lifestyle' of sin when he uses the word 'walking'. If you followed me around with a camera you could catch me in sin and take a picture and prove I was a sinner.

On the other hand, If you followed me around with a video camera, I would hope you would see a person in sanctification...appalled by her sin no matter how trivial it may seem to the world. Constant repentance and growing in Holiness.

If we willfully sin knowing the truth we are in trouble. If I think...you know...I really want to steal that money...God will forgive me....or I rationalize ignoring scriptural truths for pragmatic reasons....am I showing the fruit of salvation?

johnthebaptist said...

Billie said...

I am placing a spiritual wall between my self and you (corporately) with a GATE that can be opened and closed from the inside. I am taking the key to the lock and giving up as a sacrifice. (I am going against my human nature to continue to verbally battle over our issues with one another) God will have complete control of the key and should you knock on my gate I will have to go to Him before the gate can be opened.



Reply: can you put your computer behind that wall with the lock gate? That way you won't be tempted to write such arrogant,holier than thou, pridefilled jiberish.

Lady, you need some serious help. You shouldn't be teaching sunday school class.

If you can't discern about SG and the gang, how can you be so confident that you will know someone by the "look in their eyes"? Have you looked in SG's? Have you looked into your own?

I understand about the Spirit bearing witness with our spirit but you are already calling people lost just because they oppose the wickedness in the church.

Dangerous ground missy!

aslansown said...

Looks like Billie and Jon are still racking up distraction points.

Mary said...

Can anyone tell me about the Faith Walk sponsored by Faith Baptist? There's a link on Faith's website.

I've been told that I've been "sponsored" for the next Faith Walk but they cannot/will not tell me anything about it because it is "secret." As you may imagine, I have big yellow flags waving in my face...

Also, Faith Baptist has a Prayer Walk with various prayer "stations" along the way. I really enjoy Brother Danny but this is sounding all too emergent...

Thanks for any info.
Mary

New BBC Open Forum said...

Someone asked where we could see the entire list of 2007's "America's 50 Most Influential Churches." Here is the entire list. Note there's a link at the end of the article where you can see the list for 2006. BBC wasn't on last year's list.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Mary wrote:

"I've been told that I've been "sponsored" for the next Faith Walk but they cannot/will not tell me anything about it because it is 'secret.'"

Huh? Did you ask to be "sponsored"? What does that mean -- "sponsored"? Why should anything about this be secret?

Lin said...

Lordship salvation, McArthur and how it all got started:

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2006/10/brief-interlude-about-history-and.html

Mary said...

NASS,

As I understand it, each person must be "sponsored" by someone who has already been on the Faith Walk because attendance is by invitation only.

No, I did not ask to be sponsored.

I have no idea why it is secret. That's part of what I find so disturbing.

Mary

johnthebaptist said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
Someone asked where we could see the entire list of 2007's "America's 50 Most Influential Churches." Here is the entire list. Note there's a link at the end of the article where you can see the list for 2006. BBC wasn't on last year's list.



Reply: I believe God has a list too... I really think most of these churches are not on it.

allofgrace said...

Reply: I believe God has a list too... I really think most of these churches are not on it.

Amen.

ezekiel said...

Oh, they are on one of them ....Rev 17

David Hall said...

Billie,

Is it a wall that may be climbed by folks wishing to foist...er, minister to you? Is there a "No trespassing" sign on it? Nice analogy, however; we have similar visualizations in Tibetan Buddhism, without the taunting barbs. Does that make you emergent? Tehe!

Anywho, the tone there is a sanctified "I'm rubber and you are glue, everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you."

You build a wall; I'll build a bridge. Your words remind me of my dear departed grandmother, who dealt with every crisis by sticking her head in the Bible and praying, singing hymns, etc., as I am sure it was of great benefit; yet years of neglect, dirty little secrets and abuse permeated the family. And this cycle of abuse, where truly, the sins of the father are inherited by the sons (that's in the Bible, yes?) is no joke. My poor father still cannot face his past in a way to bring complete reconciliation with my brothers and I. Yet he is a leader, very active and outspoken in his church.

It is not to bring insult to Christ Jesus or true Christians (of whom I've met but few), when I say that religion-speak is often nothing more than an instrument of denial and absconded personal responsibility, a trifling justification appealing to the sentimental alone. “Why are you trying to kill Bellevue, you spewing, hate-filled truth-seekers.”

It is one thing for you to accept Padre’s handling of the pedophile matter as no big deal, yet it is quite another to find fault, instead(!), with people who think that this is a breach of trust and crumbles his presumed validation as a minister, perhaps even as a conscientious human being. I’d assert that such is a perfectly reasonable response by people and families deeply invested in Bellevue; as is a forum where the alienated and dispossessed can aid and comfort one another. Lord knows the same dimwits that caused this mess thought they could bottle up speech by denying one at the church.

If you don’t like it here, then go. We are all very familiar with your wall. The pro-Padre folks have steadily been building it for 7 months or more. Touch not thy anointed—yeah, that should take care of that nagging suspicion that some horrible wrong has taken place—touch not thy anointed. Is it God’s will that we all sit on our duffs while people are harmed and are suffering—must be God’s will. Is that good enough for you? What about the faculties God gave you? Don’t be beguiled by common sense or seek justice (when it is your Padre)? Is that of what your bricks are formed?

Yes, it is a big wall, and it smells, but in the light of reason, it falls like Jericho.

Billie said...

Lin said...
"I am accumstomed to teaching adults and some of you who are not saved or spiritually mature will not grasp the spiritual application. Those who understand will say, "AMEN""

That is a quote straight from Mary Baker Eddy. :o( Wonder if Miss Billie knows that?

But Miss Billie...if you are so spiritually mature...how can you ignore 1 Timothy 2? I have asked you about 4x now. Do you just ignore the parts you do not like?

1:41 PM, July
Reply:

I am fairly certain that I have addressed your question in the past whether or not your king over the site allowed them to pass his inspection or not; I do not know.
He allowsonly those things to pass that suites his agenda.
Billie

concernedSBCer said...

Ezekiel: Your 1:35 post is dead on.
:)

Regardless of which theology one aspires to, ultimately we have responsibilities as followers of Jesus....one of which is to have "the mind of Christ" which we can only get by studying, praying, worshipping and spending time with Him.

concernedSBCer said...

Nass, If I knew how, I would give YOU an applause for the theme music!!!

all2jesus said...

all2jesus said...
Here's a discussion question for you: Why did Jesus teach in parables?

2:23 AM, July 18, 2007

westtnbarrister said...
There is nothing to discuss because Christ gave us the answer himself. He taught in parables to conceal the truth from the unbelievers. (See Mark 4:10-12) But believers were given the ability to understand the mystery of the kingdom (spiritual truth). He intentionally hid the truth from unbeliever "so that seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand; lest they should turn and their sins be forgiven them." Think about the implications of that verse.


Matthew is the most expansive, but the explanation is given in all three synoptic Gospels. Matt. 13:10-17; Mark 4:10-12; Luke 8:9-10. The clear intent was conealment: that they should hear and not understand, see and not perceive, thus fufilling prophecy. Even the disciples didn't understand the parables until Jesus explained them. Understanding had been given to them; to the rest it had not. If anyone has a different take on these passages, I'd love to hear it.

all2jesus said...

Make that concealment. Shoulda used my spellchequer...

Junkster said...

Does John 3:16 teach "Lordship salvation?"

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Condition for eternal life: "believes"; Greek: pisteuo, "to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in; to credit, have confidence; used in the NT conviction and trust"

A few other passages relating to salvation using the word pisteuo, or the noun form pistis (usually translated "faith"):

Mark 1:14-15
After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

Acts 20:20-21
I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house, testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ

Based on the scriptural meaning of the word that Jesus used as the condition for salvation, the answer to my question about is "Yes." Jesus taught "Lordship salvation" because that's the only kind of salvation there is.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Billie wrote:

"I am fairly certain that I have addressed your question in the past whether or not your king over the site allowed them to pass his inspection or not; I do not know.
He allowsonly those things to pass that suites his agenda."


For your information, Ms. Tapp, I have allowed all but one of your ridiculous comments through, so don't you dare accuse me of "stifling" your voice here! The only reason I didn't publish that one was that you quoted someone who had already deleted his comment and had apologized for the tone of it. As I recall your comment was nothing more than a personal attack on him and served no purpose other than to demean him. Nothing you said had anything to do with Lin's question.

You only illustrate with each succeeding comment just how ignorant you are, and it provides comic relief for the blog, so I have no reason not to publish them. If you ever answered Lin's question she must have missed it. For that matter, so did I! So by all means, please enlighten us (again?) with your answer. I'd really like to hear it.

"King" NASS

concernedSBCer said...

Mary: A friend of mine, a member at Faith, offered this point:

Faith Walk is a weekend where folks get away and focus on God, as is my understanding. In the weeks preceding the scheduled weekend they meet weekly for Bible study and bonding time. The secrecy involved is that each person's experience with Faith Walk is very personal so there is not discussion of what "my" experience might have been so as not to give any kind of expectation as to your experience my be. I do not get the feel that it is emergent although I have not attended one. As to the prayer walking...not sure about that one. Faith does prayer walking all the time and it nothing more than what Bartlett Baptist did for their Bible school. Seems to me that one should talk to the source, ie. Bro. Danny, before waving "yellow flags" or throwing around the accusation of "emergence".

I think a good point is made. Please speak with the source before assuming anything. I'd hate for misunderstandings to happen among fellow Christians.

oc said...

King NASS.
Listen, sir. Please don't ask someone to be accountable for answering legitimate questions. For if they do answer, they may have to try to show integrity on their part, and that would not be fair, because they may not possess that quality. So please, kind sir, let them attack and be bitter,and to 'spew' venom, such as billie does. (or is that William?).

:)
oc.

concernedSBCer said...

Cakes: It's good to see you again.
:)

Junkster said...

Faith Walk is Faith Baptist Church's version of the "Walk to Emmaus" 3 day weekend, a sort of "non-denominational spiritual retreat" popular among various groups (particularly Methodists). Do a Google search and you'll find plenty of "pro" and "con" info. I'd tell you to be a Berean about it, but that would be stealing Lin's line. :)

gmommy said...

Cakes...loved your post.


Mary...
I understand why you would be uncomfortable about the walk at Faith and the way it was presented.

We can't assume anything anymore....you said yellow flag.....good balance...I would have probably made the leap to red.

I agree with a post made by churchmouse not long ago.
Problems didn't begin and don't end with BBC.

Did anyone notice when Channel 3 said that BBC was #38 of the 50 whatever churches ...they were showing a copy of the infamous report read by the brute and zoomed in on the part about "keeping things tight"????
odd.


King Nass...
you are a wise ruler in my opinion.

Delivered By Grace said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Delivered By Grace said...

Jon stated:

So the question becomes, can a 'saved' person continue to live like a lost person and be saved?

Absolutely... 1 Cor. 3:1-3 [1] And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. [2] I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; [3] for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

Response:

The understanding of sin after salvation becomes easier if one remembers God's view of sin as a whole. The is no periodic table of sins where God weighs some as being heavier than others. In God's eyes a sin is absolute, without degree. Speeding on the freeway is no different than murder. So, I think the question that continues to beg is: How many sins does it take for you consider someone is living like a lost person? If you are habitually late for meetings, this casts dispersons on your committment to your job. Is this a sin? Is this a less serious sin than deliberate murder? In God's eyes there is no difference. All sin separates us from God. We would be forever separated if not for God's gift of salvation through His free grace. So, I would say that unless you have made up your own periodic table of sin, we all sin like lost people. No amount of repentence, purification or santification will ever change the fact that we are sinners. You can never become a "former sinner" while in this body and since the degree of sin is of no concern to God, then we all will remain sinners. God's degree of sinners rest in His classification of sinners, not sin. There are lost sinners and redeemed sinners.

Jon:
I once toted the Lordship Salvation badge and beat people over the head with it until God showed me differently. What it lead me to become was legalistic, something just as dangerous as liberalism.

Response:

Many years ago I heard this referred to as intellectual salvation. The continued deep study of the Bible creates a feeling in some that God's plan for His children is a commandment that must be followed for salvation. The only logical conclusion is that salvation is an ongoing process. that is not Biblical.

To other posters:

I have noticed in many cases where some have attempted to cite one or more Bible verses to dispute another verse. I refuse to fall into that trap since the Bible is in total harmony with itself and cannot contradict itself.

Lynn said...

Billie Said...

I am fairly certain that I have addressed your question in the past whether or not your king over the site allowed them to pass his inspection or not; I do not know.
He allowsonly those things to pass that suites his agenda.
Billie


Lynn Says:

If that was true, I seriously doubt you would be allowed to post.

concernedSBCer said...

Delivered said: "I have noticed in many cases where some have attempted to cite one or more Bible verses to dispute another verse. I refuse to fall into that trap since the Bible is in total harmony with itself and cannot contradict itself."

I have not noticed this. I have seen many share verses that better explain their position, but not to contradict.

concernedSBCer said...

Lynn: Excellent deduction.

King Nass does wear his crown fairly, but not necessarily to his liking, I'm sure.

ezekiel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ezekiel said...

Titus 1:10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

ezekiel said...

Not sure I see "late for meeting" here....

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Lin said...

"I have noticed in many cases where some have attempted to cite one or more Bible verses to dispute another verse. I refuse to fall into that trap since the Bible is in total harmony with itself and cannot contradict itself."

Nice rule you are trying to decree... if only you can get everyone to agree! :o) But what else do we have except scripture? Perhaps, 'your' word for it?

No one here that I have seen is claiming sinless perfection. However, I would be a fool to 'willfully' ignore Hebrews 10 or 1 John. Paul told the Philippians to work out their salvation with 'fear and trembling'.

There has been quite a bit of scripture referenced here that make your claim specious. No wonder you do not like scripture being used here.

So, basically, the gospel according to deliveredbygrace is that we can 'live' like 'lost' people bearing no fruit and be saved. Yahoo! I know the 'world' loves that teaching. That is exactly what Hybels and Warren teach!

BTW: How do you know everyone in the Corinthian church that Paul was writing to was saved? Remember what He told the Laodecians in Revelations...who were living like 'lost' people.

ezekiel said...

1 Thes 5:22Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

25Brethren, pray for us.

26Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.

27I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.

28The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Delivered By Grace said...

Lin stated:

So, basically, the gospel according to deliveredbygrace is that we can 'live' like 'lost' people bearing no fruit and be saved.

Response:

If you sin, you are 'lost' unless you are redeemed by grace.

Unless you can live sinlessly you are living as a 'lost' person and no amount of works can change that. I have learned that no matter how many works I attempt, I still fall to sin. I admire you if your works have raised you to the ranks of being sinless. I just can't reach that plateau.

Junkster said...

Delivered By Grace said...
I have noticed in many cases where some have attempted to cite one or more Bible verses to dispute another verse. I refuse to fall into that trap since the Bible is in total harmony with itself and cannot contradict itself.

No one is using verses to dispute another verse. We are using them to help explain other verses, precisely because the Scripture does not contradict itself. When each verse is viewed in its own immediate context and in the context of the rest of the teachings of Scripture, the meaning becomes more clear. When a single verse, such as John 3:16, is used to attempt to promote a teaching out of harmony with the rest of Scripture, that is mishandling the text.

It is great to promote God's grace and the absolute freeness (to us) of His salvation. We all need to remember that nothing about salvation comes from us, that it is all His work, start to finish, and that no work of ours, no effort, no righteousness, no denial of self, no avoidance of sin ... nothing we can do ... will in any way secure or add to our salvation. Such grace is incomprehensible, and amazing, but it is real and true.

It is also important not to become legalistic in our own walk or in our demands and expectations of others ... very important ... as those who have been forgiven of immesurable offenses against a Holy God, we can do no less than to be gracious to others and be humbled by our own ongoing sinfulness.

But none of that changes these basic truths: (1) we cannot be saved without repentance, for it, along with faith, is a biblical command and condition of salvation, (2) Jesus is Lord as well as Savior, whether we always submit to His Lordship or not, so we can't chose to have Him as Savior while at the same time rejecting Him as Lord, (3) God demands, expects, and has foreordained our growth in holiness, and (4) some sins are worse, practically speaking, and in terms of consequences, than others, even if theologically speaking they are the same in God's eyes.

It really kinda surprises me that any Christian would disagree with any of that.

Delivered By Grace said...

ezekiel stated:

1 Thes 5:22Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Response:

Congratulations on eliminating all appearance of evil from your life. No matter how hard I try the evil in me slips out from time to time. It pains me that I continue to live as a 'lost' person.

Lin said...

"Unless you can live sinlessly you are living as a 'lost' person and no amount of works can change that. I have learned that no matter how many works I attempt, I still fall to sin. I admire you if your works have raised you to the ranks of being sinless. I just can't reach that plateau. "

FINALLY!!! I have been waiting for this all along...I knew it was coming. I even hinted at 'sinless perfection' in my last comment to see if this would finally come up!

Congrats!

Here is the key: If I am regenerated and truly saved. I will NOT want to live like a lost person. My ATTITUDE toward sin totally changes. Yes, we still sin...but we are appalled by it. We hate it. He will not allow us to wander too far off the narrow road if we are Abiding in Him.

Like this,

Phil 1:5

6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

concernedSBCer said...

I don't live as a "lost" person because I have the peace that passeth all understanding and I have my Hope in Him.

There's a big difference.

Delivered By Grace said...

junkster stated:

When a single verse, such as John 3:16, is used to attempt to promote a teaching out of harmony with the rest of Scripture, that is mishandling the text.

Response: So children who have no comprehension of repentance cannot be saved. And John 3:16 cannot stand alone as an axiom of salvation? I cannot accept higher intelligence and thourough comprehension of the Bible as preconditions of salvation. I will embrace free grace over intellectual salvation.

Junkster stated:

(4) some sins are worse, practically speaking, and in terms of consequences, than others, even if theologically speaking they are the same in God's eyes.

Response:

Is this an example of placing manly interpretations over Godly ones. Sorry, God sees ALL sin as the same, whether or not you agree with Him.

ezekiel said...

1 Peter 1: 13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Deliveredbygrace...

The only reason that one scripture appears in your view to dispute another is that the WORD won't fit into that neat little box that you live in called me, me, me, me.....You deny the whole counsel of God...The WORD...but you want to pick out one scripture and hang your life on it.....As we have seen today....you live in Matthew and just ignore anything past that....Scripture is error free and Holy....if 99% or 10% or anything more than 0% doesn't line up with your belief...That is your problem, not God's. I would not rest until it did....but that is me...you are destined to be who you are....and God knew you from the beginning of time.....

Lin said...

offline...

delievered, I know you will come back with something to try and lure people into believing they can continuously live like hell, molest their sons, ignore scripture and still have assurance of salvation. But unless there is some serious repentance and regeneration...you are preaching a false gospel, friend.

No, we won't ever be perfect in this world but we are to grow in Holiness. For without Holiness, no one will see God. It is in Hebrews...check it out.

Let me assure you in case you are wondering that I consider myself chief among sinners. I am constantly chilled thinking about the Wrath that Jesus Christ took up on the Cross from God. The wrath I deserve.

His Gift to us was free. We can do NOTHING to earn it.

I am overwhelmed with gratitude.

But when we are saved...He takes out our hearts of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. (Ez 36) We are new creatures. He cleanses us. He gives us a hunger and thirst for righteousness...for Holiness. Salvation is a supernatural act. We become bond servants to Christ. And if He began a good work in us...He will finish it.

Delivered By Grace said...

lin stated:

Here is the key: If I am regenerated and truly saved. I will NOT want to live like a lost person. My ATTITUDE toward sin totally changes. Yes, we still sin...but we are appalled by it. We hate it. He will not allow us to wander too far off the narrow road if we are Abiding in Him.
Response:

This is EXACTLY what I have been saying:

Isaiah 64:
4For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

5Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

As hard as you strive for Godliness, you will continue to sin. So your works are useless.

I have never recommended a carnal life. I continue to say that salvation is independent of your works and the quest to live as Christ. Salvation is free and available to everyone. Walking closer with God is independent of salvation.

ezekiel said...

Deliveredbygrace said,

"ezekiel stated:

1 Thes 5:22Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Response:

Congratulations on eliminating all appearance of evil from your life. No matter how hard I try the evil in me slips out from time to time. It pains me that I continue to live as a 'lost' person."


You are not living as a lost person if a little evil slips out. You just lost the battle with your flesh.....

Romans 7:13 Did then that which is good become death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might be shown to be sin, by working death to me through that which is good; --that through the commandment sin might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do.

16 But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.

19 For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise.

20 But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.

21 I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

It would really help a lot if you would just endeavor to read the WORD. If it is too hard for you, get it on CD. Either way, Ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. It's beginning to look like He is the only one that will be able to.....

Junkster said...

Delivered By Grace said...
Response: So children who have no comprehension of repentance cannot be saved. And John 3:16 cannot stand alone as an axiom of salvation? I cannot accept higher intelligence and thourough comprehension of the Bible as preconditions of salvation. I will embrace free grace over intellectual salvation.

Ever heard the phrase "straw man"? Or how about "putting words into my mouth"?

What I've actually said was simple ... that the word "believe" in the Bible (including when Jesus said it) has a specific meaning. It refers not just to knowing about and agreeing with Him, but also trusting in Him, which as a natural and necessary consequence involves good works.

Is this an example of placing manly interpretations over Godly ones. Sorry, God sees ALL sin as the same, whether or not you agree with Him.

The Bible, including the words of Jesus, teaches that some sins have worse consequences in this life and in the next than others. Whether or not you agree with Him.

Lin said...

"This is EXACTLY what I have been saying:"

Really? That's funny. You could have said this about 20 comments ago.

Strange.....

Anyway, I am glad to see you have come around to Biblical thinking at last. :o) Me thinks you are taking commenting lessons from Jon. He does this all the time, too.

gmommy said...

.... So children who have no comprehension of repentance cannot be saved.

Was that a question??
Children DO understand repentance.

My grand baby knows she is not obeying God when she disobeys her parents.
She feels ashamed and sad....she goes to them and opologizes....and they tell her they forgive her and she is glad and excited.She is "restored" to fellowship with hugs or if needed, punished.

I tremble to think of training her with ...."we all sin, honey, and all sin is the same anyway, so just do them all....even the ones that hurt you and others or send you to prison someday....after all sin is sin to God!"

.....(Sorry, God sees ALL sin as the same, whether or not you agree with Him.)

scary.

Delivered By Grace said...

Lin stated:

delievered, I know you will come back with something to try and lure people into believing they can continuously live like hell

Response:
For anyone to suggest that I would try to lure someone into 'living like hell' is a bastardidation of my words. But how a person lives is independent of salvation.


Lin stated:
molest their sons,

Response:
Should a man molest his son? No, he should strive to live like Christ. Can a man molest his son and be saved? Yes. As I stated before, I do not believe in degrees of sin.

Lin:
ignore scripture and still have assurance of salvation.

Ignoring scripture is independent of salvation. As I stated earlier, the robber on the side of Jesus was saved. I believe he must have ignored scripture his entire life. He still recieved salvation. Unless of course there is another verse you can quote me that disputes that. Or maybe I am taking that out of context also.

Again, I am in no way advocating the ignorance of scripture. The study of scripture is a fruit of salvation, not a necessary component.

Lin:
But unless there is some serious repentance and regeneration...you are preaching a false gospel, friend.

Response:

That, my friend is your opinion, misgotten, but your opinion still the same.

Do you think it is possible for someone to truly accept salvation if they actually believe in the preconditions you place on it? If you believe in the necessity of the works, can you really accept the salvation as a free gift. And, yes, I do believe that you have to believe it is a gift of God that cannot be bought in order to accept the gift. I believe Dr. Rogers refered to it as a child-like faith.

Delivered By Grace said...

junkster stated:

What I've actually said was simple ... that the word "believe" in the Bible (including when Jesus said it) has a specific meaning. It refers not just to knowing about and agreeing with Him, but also trusting in Him, which as a natural and necessary consequence involves good works.

Response: So I have to be a Greek scholar to understand just exactly what the word means? I thought that was the job of the Holy Spirit.

Another example of intellectual salvation. If you conjugate the Greek verb , you have no way to understand the Bible.

Delivered By Grace said...

gmommy stated:

.... So children who have no comprehension of repentance cannot be saved.

Was that a question??
Children DO understand repentance.

Response:

But what if a child does NOT understand repentance? Can he/she not be saved? Yes.

gmommy:

.....(Sorry, God sees ALL sin as the same, whether or not you agree with Him.)

scary.


Response:

Yes, but true. Quite disconcerting to know that your little white lie is also an abomination in the eyes of God. See how inadequate we are of salvation. Aren't you happy that God loves us so much that He sent His only begotten Son to pay the price for that little white lie which in itself, would doom you to an everlasting existence apart from Him?

Dr. Bill Loney said...

After reading the top 50 list, I was disappointed to see that 'The Backwoods Holiness Tabernacle' of Blackfoot, TX, pastored by Apostle Grover and Sister Vera Grimey, did not make it.

I happened upon this little congregation while doing a little nature trail jog(shirtless & speedos of course). I snuck in and sat on the back row of the old truck seats, but the Apostle soon had a prophesying spell that included me. I was wisked to the front where I was invited to test my faith via a bucket of rattlesnakes(I thought they were sausages gone bad at first). As the largest snake struck out to take a billloney nibble, I turned and all he got was a mouthfull of backhair. The snake, who was very upset(and a little nauseated) by this turn of events, coiled up in the bottom of the bucket and pouted for the rest of the service, not striking a single person. They then decided that I must be an apostate(after all, snakes don't lie), and after several right kicks of christian fellowship, I was escorted out. I had planned to return, but as my bad luck would have it, again, there were bigfoot sightings reported in that area also. And FYI, speedos aren't the best choice for a briar laden nature trail jog.

The experience reminded me of a song we used to sing at church when I was a child back on Loney Mountain...

'there's a little wild church in the back woods'
'a little wild church preachin' hell'
'no church is so dear to my childhood'
'as the little wild church (that caused me to get lockjaw because I went to Sunday service barefooted) and stepped on a nail'

O' Little Wild Church on Loney Mountain, how I pine for thee.

William T. Loney, MD

oc said...

Junk said:

What I've actually said was simple ... that the word "believe" in the Bible (including when Jesus said it) has a specific meaning. It refers not just to knowing about and agreeing with Him, but also trusting in Him, which as a natural and necessary consequence involves good works.

oc says:
You are right, Junk. The greek word 'pisteuo', which is often translated as 'believe', is best translated as 'faith'. The word is stronger than our English word 'belief'. So it would be more accurate to say, 'I faith in Jesus', rather than merely 'I believe' in Him.
The word means much more than an intellectual assent. It intimates a relationship, a concept of trust, which does not come across with the English word 'believe'.

Just my two cents,
and Just sayin',
oc.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hey, Bill? Were you the only one who could see the snakes? Just wonderin'.

Mary said...

Concerned,

Thank you for passing on the info from your friend at Faith. It's very nice to hear and it does sound quite reasonable and well-intended.

If the young couple who want to "sponsor" me had been that candid, I would not have had such questions. Unfortunately, they were not.

And you are correct. I should have gone straight to the source for more information. But, I did not throw around accusations, only questions.

Thank you,
Mary

Dr. Bill Loney said...

Also, since returning to Memphis via FedEx, I was disappointed to learn that BBC had elected new deacon officers, including a couple of doctors, but I was not.

I have decided that come Sunday, I will put on my best powder blue leisure suit and white pleather loafers and address this injustice to the congregation...probably right before that big nervous guy starts his talk. Despite the fact that I am not a member, and despite the fact that I have not one, but two vestigial tails, and despite the fact I get my electricity by running a long extension cord and plugging it up in the neighbor's garage two houses down, and despite the fact that when I cough it looks like a confetti shower because I ate about 5 pounds of that albino cheese puff packing material out of the box that I was shipped back to Memphis in, and despite the fact that...wait, what was I talking about?...oh yeah, BILLLONEY FOR DEACON PRESIDENT!!!

William T. Loney, MD

ezekiel said...

Junk,

You are correct. Belief is a big word apparently requiring more than just knowledge but trust and obedience as well. It lines up perfectly with Hebrews 3:18 as well.

ezekiel said...

Nass, Lin, Junk,

It may just be me...or the time of night...

But you may want to look at delivered's posts on July 11....Convictions and beliefs seem to change a bit as the conversation wears on.....

sickofthelies said...

ROFL ROFL ROFL!!!!

So I just get home tonight, and tune into the blog to be treated to ms. billie's tyrade about some wall and a gate..and accusations about being stoned, etc...and then I click on NASS's link, and almost fell out of my chair laughing!!!!

It's not even a full moon!!!

Dr. Bill Loney said...

A question...after I am elected president deacon, where do I go to get my complimentary staff car and bank card?

The El Camino is back in Texas, and my only means of transportation is my landlady's electric rascal...don't get me wrong, it's a sweet ride, especially since I hooked up the 8-track and put the "Get off my Tails!" bumper sticker on...but if I'm going to be deaconing around town and whatnot, I may need something with more than .5 horses.

Let me know.

William T. Loney, MD

Mary said...

Gmommy and Junkster,

Thanks for your comments also. I will do my Berean search (wink to Lin) on the Faith Walk.

I don't want to become one of those paranoid people who sees an emergent behind every tree, but my Roman Catholic background provides me with plenty of stuff already in existence in many of our churches that make me shiver.

Mary

Dr. Bill Loney said...

One more thing before I have my customary pickled quail egg nighttime beauty smoothie...do yall think the powder blue leisure suit might be a little 'uppity' for Sunday morning? I mean, I don't want to come across as being 'a high society' type. If so, I have a mint green one that might be a little more relatable to the common man. See, I'm already gettin' in the deaconing mindset.

William T. Loney, MD...(most deaconish)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Dr. Loney,

The powder blue would be nice, I think!

Junkster said...

Delivered By Grace said...
Response: So I have to be a Greek scholar to understand just exactly what the word means? I thought that was the job of the Holy Spirit.

No, all you have to do is read the Bible in English, in context, without imposing your own theological assumptions and views onto the text, and trust Him to give you understanding.

Another example of intellectual salvation.

Another example of putting words into my mouth.


Just on the off chance that it might help, let me attempt to clarify something. Faith is required for salvation -- but that kind of faith does not reside within us inherently, it is a gift of God, granted to us by His gracious work of regeneration (the new birth). It is the same with repentance ... it is not a work of our own; it, too, is a gift of God's grace, granted to us by the new birth. These twin gifts from God, repentance and faith, when appropriated and applied by us, result in salvation.

Does a person need to understand all this to be saved? No ... all that is required on our part is simply "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." (Acts 20:21) This takes no deep intellectual understanding.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

I was just doing a little brainstorming(hold the sarcasm, smart alecs), and I penned down a possible compilation of my presidential deacon staff.

OC- head of security
AOG, Eke.- bible stuff and whatnot
SOTL- public relations
Nass- valet parking
Gmom- catering
Socwork- social work
Junk- puns and jokey phone messages
Lin- death threat laison
concerned- watercooler talk coordinator
mom4- leisure suit picker outer
cakes- long word letter writer

More positions will come available as I make them up, so send me your resumes...(all positions pending the signing of a Loney loyalty/confidentiality oath)

William T. Loney, MD

gmommy said...

I'm IN Dr. Looney....
as long as catering doesn't involve cooking...
not really my forte.

New BBC Open Forum said...

junk & Mary,

So Faith Baptist's "Faith Walk" is really based upon this Faith Walk "junkster" referenced earlier? I went to FB's website for information and was about knocked out of my chair by the loud (Christian, I assume) rock music associated with the video message on the front page. (Just a warning to turn your sound down before going there!)

There are more "buzz words" on the "Faith Walk" site than the number of hairs on Bill Loney's back! Here are some quotes:

"The basic atmosphere of Faith Walk is one of love, joy, Christian fellowship, singing, laughing, and worship."

Laughing?

"Faith Walk can be made only once in a lifetime."

Why?

"If you are married, the husband is encouraged to attend first. Wives usally attend a week or two later."

Why? And what if someone's not married?

"Faith Walk was derived from Cursillo de Christianidad, a 'short course in Christianity,' which has been an active tool of church renewals since its beginnings in Spain in 1949.

"Cursillo had its beginnings amid the turmoil and destruction of civil warfare and the Second World War, which left Spain with empty churches and a sense of aimlessness and diminished dreams. Late in the 1940's, a sense of revival was stirring within the Roman Catholic Church. Small groups of friends in various Catholic action groups began to share their faith regularly.

"Pilgrimages were organized whereby men and women could rededicate their lives toward Christian ideals. Bishop Juan Hervas, who was active in action groups and renewal activities with the men on the Island of Majorca, and Eduardo Bonin, who was involved with organizing pilgrimages, met through these sharing groups. They began to see how the church could benefit and the lives of people could be changed through piety, study, action and sharing their lives in Christ.

"With a broadening vision of what these small sharing groups (reunion groups) could accomplish, weekly meetings produced periodic retreats where the reality of living a Christian life was intensely taught and experienced through support by reunion groups. In 1947 these retreats became known as Cursillo de Christiandad, which means 'short course in Christianity.' Originally the retreats grew out of the reunion groups!

"There were few men in the Church after the tragedy of war in Spain. One of the prime objectives in the early years was to revitalize the church by bringing men back into the activities of the church.

"The Cursillo movement was confined to Spanish speaking countries until the late 1950's when a group of men from the Spanish Air Force, who were in training in Texas and were in a Reunion Group, conducted the first Cursillo in the United States. Among the Spanish-speaking people the movement began to spread across the United States. The first English speaking Cursillo was held in the early 1960's.

"Protestants who attended the weekends, saw the need to make the experience available to other Protestants. This led to the development of the ecumenical Tres Dias. The first Tres Dias weekend was held in Newburgh, New York, November 2-5, 1972. Dave McManigal was its rector. He was a Protestant who had attended a Roman Catholic Cursillo and was led to be instrumental in forming Tres Dias. That weekend, then as now, was open to all Christian traditions. In 1985 Tres Dias became International when communities were chartered in Korea, Germany and Russia. The 'International Tres Dias' is located in Poughkeepsie, NY. There are more than fifty local secretariats around the world and hundreds here in the United States. Tens of thousands of people have participated in their Tres Dias weekend.

"Due to the open-mindedness shown by Catholic cursillistas from the South of the United States, more and more Protestant candidates participated in Cursillo weekends. In 1977, some members of the Upper Room (the group responsible for the revival within the United Methodist Church participated in a Cursillo in Miami. The following year, the Upper Room set up its own Cursillo in Nashville, Tennessee.

"With the impulse of the Upper Room, the Methodist Cursillo movement grew extensively. Although connected to The United Methodist Church, it became largely accessible to Christians from different denominations.

"In 1981, due to a mutual agreement between the Methodist Church and the National Secretariat of Catholic Cursillo of the United States, it was decided to separate the Movements and the ecumenical Methodist Cursillo changed its name to Walk to Emmaus. However, as can be seen on the web, the name Methodist Cursillo still prevails in some area (such as Louisiana, Minnesota, Mississippi).

"Besides this ecumenical aspect, Walk to Emmaus and the original Cursillos de Cristiandad are much alike. As can be seen by this description excerpted from the Upper Room website:

"'The Walk to Emmaus experience begins with a 72-hour short course in Christianity, comprised of fifteen talks by laymen and Pastors on the themes of God's grace, disciplines of Christian discipleship, and what it means to be the church. The course is wrapped in prayer and meditation, special times of worship and daily celebration of Communion. The 'Emmaus community,' made up of those who have attended an Emmaus weekend, support the 72-hour experience with a prayer vigil, by preparing and serving meals, and other acts of love and self-giving. The Emmaus Walk typically begins Thursday evening and concludes Sunday evening. Men and women attend separate weekends.

"During and after the three days, Emmaus leaders encourage participants to meet regularly in small groups. The members of the small groups challenge and support one another in faithful living. Participants seek to Christianize their environments of family, job, and community through the ministry of their congregations. The three-day Emmaus experience and follow-up groups strengthen and renew Christian people as disciples of Jesus Christ and as active members of the body of Christ in mission to the world.'

"Walk to Emmaus has spread widely. It is estimated that over half a million persons have experienced a Walk to Emmaus weekend and today the Movement counts more than 300 communities distributed all over the United States as well as in Australia, Brazil, Bulgaria, Costa Rica, England, Estonia, Germany, Ghana, Hong Kong, India, Mexico, New Zealand, Norway, Puerto Rico, Saint Vincent, Singapore, South Africa, Swaziland and Zimbabwe.

"Although Tres Dias and Walk to Emmaus are the largest protestant arms of the Cursillo movement the movement actually finds itself under more than fifty different names, in every corner of the United states and unbelievably in countries all over the world. (See time line below – this does not include every name but it does include every name we could find to date)."

Cursillo History

1947 Cursillo - Spain
1951 Cursillo - Columbia
1957 Cursillo - Waco, Texas
1960 Cursillo - Austria
1961 Cursillo - San Antonio, Texas (1st English Speaking)
1961 Cursillo - Germany
1963 Cursillo - Ontario, Canada
1964 Cursillo - Columbus, Ohio
1965 Mouvement de Cursilos (Francophones)
1965 TEC – Teens Encounter Christ - Lansing, Michigan
1967 REC – Residents Encounter Christ
1967 Challenge Youth Cursillo
1970 First Episcopal Cursillo - Iowa
1972 Vocare – Episcopal Youth Weekend
1972 Via de Cristo (Lutheran)
1972 First Tres Dias in New York
1972 Tres Dias - Korea & Germany
1974 HEC – Handicapped Encounter Christ
1974 First Minnesota Cursillo
1975 Kairos
1975 Kairos Outside
1975 Kairos Torch
1975 Kairos Horizon
1975 First Koinonia – Buffalo, New York
1975 Happening – Episcopal Youth Weekend – Dallas, TX
1976 First Vida Nueva –Youth Catholic(1985 became Youth Tres Dias)
1977 Methodist Cursillo (Walk to Emmaus Model) – Peoria, IL
1980 De Colores en Christo – Muskegan, Michigan – Prison Ministry
1980 Moravian Cursillo
1981 Walk To Emmaus formed
1984 Presbyterian Cursillo
1984 First Chrysalis – High School Age
1984 First Walk to Emmaus – Australia
1986 Diaspora
1986 Via de Christo
1986 First Cum Cristo – Columbus, Ohio
1987 Heart of America Camino
1987 Journey Through Faith
1987 Journey – College Age (Walk to Emmaus)
1988 First Walk to Emmaus – Brazil
1989 Discipleship Walk – Indiana
1989 De Colores Ministries
1989 First Walk to Emmaus – Mexico
1990 First Walk to Emmaus – South Africa and Puerto Rico
1990 Epiphany – Youth Prison
1990 First Chrysalis – Australia and Mexico
1991 Presbyterian Pilgrimage
1992 First Great Banquet
1993 First Canku Wakan (For those of Native American Heritage)
1994 Cursillo – Switzerland
1996 Celebration – Youth (Presbyterian Pilgrimage)
1996 First Awakening – Youth (Great Banquet)
1997 First Kairos – United Kingdom
1997 First KERYX – Michigan
1997 First Unidos en Cristo
2003 Faith Walk – Bartlett, TN

"In 2001 the Lord began to draw people who had attended many different weekends to Faith Baptist Church in Bartlett, Tennessee. In less than two years the Lord brought people from Tres Dias, Walk to Emmaus, Discipleship Walk, Presbyterian Cursillo and Kairos. As we began to pray together the Lord began to show us that almost every denomination had started a version of the Cursillo movement, with the exception of Baptist. Thus the dream of Faith Walk would begin. The purpose from the beginning would be twofold. It would be ecumenical (not a Baptist weekend) and it would exist 'to strengthen and develop leaders in other churches.' Three insurmountable challenges would surface: First, we would need at least 35 people who had gone through a weekend. Second, we would need a little over nine thousand dollars to purchase the initial supplies. Third, we would need another community to come along side us and help us rewrite a Manual (a Manual that, with talks and all, would require over two thousand man hours). Within a year the Lord miraculously provided all three in ways that were so unusual that it could have only been accomplished by a sovereign God. Discipleship Walk of Memphis, TN came along side us. Half of Faith Walk #1 and #2 (Oct 2003) was made up of Discipleship Walk members. We had 16 male Believers (Candidates, Disciples or Pilgrims on other Walks) on the first Faith Walk and 16 female Believers on Walk #2. The birth had taken place and the spirit of God had moved in a powerful, strong way – beyond our wildest dreams!!!

"May the Lord continue to add to the number of names of the Cursillo movement until the entire world knows about His Grace and the many colors of His love."


Mary, this doesn't send up a yellow flag with me. It sends up a whole lanyard of big red flags! My gosh! This sounds like New Age stuff. I thought perhaps "junk" had simply confused the term "Faith Walk" and found this site and somehow connected the two, but there it is in black and white -- "Faith Baptist in Bartlett." Why in the world do churches have to have some elaborate "gimmick" these days? You know, every time I hear the words "small group" now I cringe. It's become so closely associated with the PDL and PDC stuff that's all I can think of when I hear the term today.

Mary, I still don't understand how you could be unknowingly "sponsored" for this thing. Did you see the application form? It costs $120, and somebody had to have some personal data on you to sign you up. Looks like you do get a t-shirt. ("I spent $120 and three days out of my life, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"?) I will withhold my advice to you, but you probably can guess what it would be!

Please, where can we go to find pure, simple, undiluted, Bible-based teaching, some traditional music, and none of these marketing gimmicks? For once, I just want to go to church!

gmommy said...

Nass...
you know I have an answer to that question!

Delivered By Grace said...

junkster stated:

Delivered By Grace said...
Response: So I have to be a Greek scholar to understand just exactly what the word means? I thought that was the job of the Holy Spirit.

No, all you have to do is read the Bible in English, in context, without imposing your own theological assumptions and views onto the text, and trust Him to give you understanding.

Response:

I agree. That is what I do.

Jon L. Estes said...

Delivered by grace,

Thank you for your comments and stand. It seems some want to exaggerate your words to make their point... to make it look like you support living in sin.

Keep up the good work.

larry said...

I read some of the discussion about the Faith Walk, and I'd like to add what I know about it.

There's nothing 'New Age' about it, since the entire weekend is Christ-centered. The purpose is to experience Christian fellowship in a unique way away from the daily routine. It could be said that the experiential aspect is slightly pentecostal, but I don't see that as a problem.

Were you to attend, you would share many experiences, some quite personal. It's a very emotional time, and yes, there are times of laughter. I don't see that as a problem, either.

As to why people attend, that's up to each individual. It's certainly not mandatory, and having been on the Faith Walk is not an accomplishment. (Nothing Masonic about it, that is.)

There are expenses involved, and that's why there's a sign up fee.

Granted the 'mystery' of what's on the schedule is grounds for suspicion, but you have to trust that Faith Baptist or Christ United Methodist wouldn't deliberately expose you to spiritual danger. If you're able to do that, I'd suggest that you think and pray about attending.

concernedSBCer said...
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concernedSBCer said...
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concernedSBCer said...
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New BBC Open Forum said...

"Mass"?

concernedSBCer said...

Delivered said: "Ignoring scripture is independent of salvation. As I stated earlier, the robber on the side of Jesus was saved. I believe he must have ignored scripture his entire life."

I absolutely believe the robber received salvation, because Jesus told him he did, but I do think there is a big difference in receiving Jesus at the very end of your life, and receiving Him early, ignoring Him throughout your life, and then dying. Oh, you are no less saved, but you certainly will not be rewarded as we all strive to be. I want to be His servant, and impact others for Him....not accept Him then never honor Him.

concernedSBCer said...

Nass said: "Please, where can we go to find pure, simple, undiluted, Bible-based teaching, some traditional music, and none of these marketing gimmicks? For once, I just want to go to church!"

I have an answer too. You are welcome to email me.
:)

*Apparently my spellchecker isn't working so well this am! Sorry*

concernedSBCer said...

Mary: I'm sorry, I didn't mean for my post to be aimed directly at you. It was a general statement for us all to check things out with the source. We are all a little PDL gun shy, aren't we?
:)

concernedSBCer said...

Jon: Oh please.....you need more sleep. Apparently at 4:26 you aren't thinking so clearly either.

Scripture says what it says.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

"Thank you for your comments and stand. It seems some want to exaggerate your words to make their point... to make it look like you support living in sin.

"Keep up the good work."


Endlessly looping mental image.

Becky said...

Thanks for the discussion on "Faith Walk." It has been very helpful.

I saw a bumpersticker for "Faith Walk" yesterday. (Firt time for that) This vehicle also had a bumpersticker for a Catholic school.

allofgrace said...

It appears in this day and age that there is a severe misunderstanding of the nature of conversion.

There are some questions that must be answered:

How does one who is at enmity with God, who cannot know his own heart much less change it, who cannot understand the Scriptures which are foolishness to him, who loves darkness rather than light and suppresses what may be known of God in unrighteousness, to whom Christ is a stumbling block, who is a God-hater and a lover of iniquity...how is this person changed into one who repents (and continues to repent) of sin, places all his hope and trust in Christ alone, loves God and loves His word, has the love of Christ shed abroad in his heart, walks in the light, grows in the grace of knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, holds fast to his profession, perseveres in faith and good works...how is this accomplished? Something drastic has to happen does it not?...can one change his own heart and disposition towards God?...Salvation is of the LORD...wholly of the LORD...only of the LORD.

"Faith is an act, but it is the act of a renewed man." --CH Spurgeon

Lin said...

"Lin- death threat laison"

Well, I am flattered...I think...how many have you had?

:o)

Lin said...

Ezekial: "It may just be me...or the time of night...

But you may want to look at delivered's posts on July 11....Convictions and beliefs seem to change a bit as the conversation wears on....."

No, you are right on. If you go back to the last thread you will see it even clearer.

This is a cheap attempt to try and paint sanctification as 'legalistic'. And it has been done in a very deceitful way.

Delieveredbygrace actually sounds a lot like Gaines sans the authority/anointed drivel which has been Jon's perview.

JMO.

imaresistor said...

Churchmouse said..."I saw a bumpersticker for "Faith Walk" yesterday. (Firt time for that) This vehicle also had a bumpersticker for a Catholic school."

Bingo! Remember prereformation era... This is where it is all heading.

What has happened to the prayer center building at Bellevue. The one slated for a labyrinth earlier?

Lin said...

"Do you think it is possible for someone to truly accept salvation if they actually believe in the preconditions you place on it? If you believe in the necessity of the works, can you really accept the salvation as a free gift. And, yes, I do believe that you have to believe it is a gift of God that cannot be bought in order to accept the gift. I believe Dr. Rogers refered to it as a child-like faith."

This proves how deceitful you are. NO ONE has suggested that salvation is NOT a free gift. NO ONE has suggested that you must work for it.

As Junk said, you are setting up straw men to argue against. I will admit, it is quite clever.

If sanctification is not important then Paul wasted lots of time writing letters.

gmommy said...

NASS asked,
Please, where can we go to find pure, simple, undiluted, Bible-based teaching, some traditional music, and none of these marketing gimmicks? For once, I just want to go to church!

1:07 AM, July 19, 2007

gmommy's response,

River Oaks on Germantown Parkway

imaresistor said...

I have this to say about the faith walk stuff...

The slow boil is working.

Billie said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
Billie wrote:

"I am fairly certain that I have addressed your question in the past whether or not your king over the site allowed them to pass his inspection or not; I do not know.
He allowsonly those things to pass that suites his agenda."

For your information, Ms. Tapp, I have allowed all but one of your ridiculous comments through, so don't you dare accuse me of "stifling" your voice here! The only reason I didn't publish that one was that you quoted someone who had already deleted his comment and had apologized for the tone of it. As I recall your comment was nothing more than a personal attack on him and served no purpose other than to demean him. Nothing you said had anything to do with Lin's question.

You only illustrate with each succeeding comment just how ignorant you are, and it provides comic relief for the blog, so I have no reason not to publish them. If you ever answered Lin's question she must have missed it. For that matter, so did I! So by all means, please enlighten us (again?) with your answer. I'd really like to hear it.

Reply to the knock of the King of the Bloggers against Pastor Steve Gaines (my pastor)


I HEARD THE KNOCK ON MY GATE; IT WAS LOUD! ARE YOU UPSET WITH ME FOR TELLING YOUR READERS THAT YOU HAVE PLACED YOURSELF UP AS A FALSE IDOL (A kING AGAINST THE WORK OF THE LORD)?

I WILL GO BEFORE THE KING OF ALL KINGS TODAY AND IF HE WILL HAND ME THE KEY TO THE GATE THAT I GAVE TO HIM YESTERDAY, I WILL OPEN UP AND COMMUNICATE WITH YOU AGAIN, OTHERWISE YOU WILL HAVE TO JUST WAIT.
BILLIE

TRUE OF FALSE: AM I THE FOOL THAT YOU CLAIM THAT I AM _______

DID I LISTEN AND OBEY THE WORD THAT MY KING GAVE TO ME THROUGH HIS SERVANT NEHEMIAH AND LOCKED YOU OUTSIDE ________
READERS DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSION

WHO IS THE GREATER THE king OF THE BLOGSTERS AGAINST THE WORK OF THE LORD OR THE ALMIGHTY KING OF ALL HEAVEN AND EARTH?

gmommy said...

Larry said,
It's a very emotional time......

Plenty of that going around today...
is that scriptural?

Larry...
but you have to trust that Faith Baptist or Christ United Methodist wouldn't deliberately expose you to spiritual danger.

no disrespect to Bro. Danny or the minister at Christ but plenty of that going around also.....

BS wants people to ignore the facts about audits and investigations of a disqualified Baptist minister on just his word.

How long was the minister at Walnut Grove Baptist "trusted"???

New BBC Open Forum said...

Billie yelled:

"I HEARD THE KNOCK ON MY GATE; IT WAS LOUD! ARE YOU UPSET WITH ME FOR TELLING YOUR READERS THAT YOU HAVE PLACED YOURSELF UP AS A FALSE IDOL (A kING AGAINST THE WORK OF THE LORD)?"

I'm afraid you're the only one who's conferred that title upon me, Ms. Billie. And no I'm not upset with you. Rather, I'm amused.

"I WILL GO BEFORE THE KING OF ALL KINGS TODAY AND IF HE WILL HAND ME THE KEY TO THE GATE THAT I GAVE TO HIM YESTERDAY, I WILL OPEN UP AND COMMUNICATE WITH YOU AGAIN, OTHERWISE YOU WILL HAVE TO JUST WAIT."

Lord, please give Ms. Billie back her key! The suspense is killing me.

"TRUE OF FALSE: AM I THE FOOL THAT YOU CLAIM THAT I AM _______ "

I don't know you personally, ma'am. I only know you by your words. So if the shoe fits....

"DID I LISTEN AND OBEY THE WORD THAT MY KING GAVE TO ME THROUGH HIS SERVANT NEHEMIAH AND LOCKED YOU OUTSIDE ________
READERS DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSION"


So Nehemiah is speaking directly to you now? Interesting. I'm sure the readers will draw their own conclusions. You may not like their conclusions, but I assure they have and will!

"WHO IS THE GREATER THE king OF THE BLOGSTERS AGAINST THE WORK OF THE LORD OR THE ALMIGHTY KING OF ALL HEAVEN AND EARTH?"

If you even have to ask something like that (with its implied threat and false labeling of me as being "against the work of the Lord"), then you are to be pitied even more than I imagined.

Reply.

all2jesus said...

delivered said...
I have never recommended a carnal life. I continue to say that salvation is independent of your works and the quest to live as Christ. Salvation is free and available to everyone. Walking closer with God is independent of salvation.


You may not have recommended it, but it apparently doesn't matter either way. You have completely disassociated righteousness and faith. Scripture says otherwise.

Faith precedes works, but the two are inseparably linked. While we are saved apart from the works of the law, true faith must produce righteousness; sanctification bears witness to justification. This is the work of the Holy Spirit present in every true believer. Remember Jesus' condemnation of the fig tree that didn't bear fruit. Remember his admonition concerning branches that don't bear fruit.

Are we saved by grace alone? Yes. Can that happen without producing a changed life and works of righteousness? No.

sickofthelies said...

ummm, Billie,

I thought you went into a diatribe yesterday about locking the gate and throwing away the key, or something like that..so...what happened?

Did you find a locksmith?

New BBC Open Forum said...

If the blogger "concerned_for_bbc" is lurking, will you please e-mail me? You may do so anonymously. I just need for you to verify something.

Thanks,

NBBCOF

Jon L. Estes said...

all2jesus said...

delivered said...
I have never recommended a carnal life. I continue to say that salvation is independent of your works and the quest to live as Christ. Salvation is free and available to everyone. Walking closer with God is independent of salvation.

You may not have recommended it, but it apparently doesn't matter either way. You have completely disassociated righteousness and faith. Scripture says otherwise.

Faith precedes works, but the two are inseparably linked. While we are saved apart from the works of the law, true faith must produce righteousness; sanctification bears witness to justification. This is the work of the Holy Spirit present in every true believer. Remember Jesus' condemnation of the fig tree that didn't bear fruit. Remember his admonition concerning branches that don't bear fruit.

Are we saved by grace alone? Yes. Can that happen without producing a changed life and works of righteousness? No.

11:07 AM, July 19, 2007


Are you saying that anyone who does not bear good fruit is lost?

What constitutes bad fruit? Sin??? Lostness???

There seems to be an attempt to say that believers can not bare bad fruit, at any time after salvation. If I am misreading, please make your position clearer.

larry said...

gmommy,

I believe I read that the man at Walnut Grove was there for about 20 years. Although I've never been there, I live in the neighborhood. It's given the devil yet another tool to use against the cause of Christ.

The Faith Walk is really not something to argue over. It's simply a time of fellowship and worship that goes deeper than is possible on a Sunday morning.

It's very scriptural. I shouldn't say a lot about it (it's like giving away the end of a movie), but during the weekend there is a discipleship focus, and Christian leaders from the community will speak. You probably have friends who have been on the Emmaus or Faith Walk, so if you're skeptical you should ask around.

I'm a little surprised to read about the t-shirts and bumper stickers, though. It looks like it might be falling victim to commercialization.

Lin said...

Miss Billie has been watching TBN again.

Lin said...

"Are you saying that anyone who does not bear good fruit is lost?"

Are you saying that someone who bears bad fruit is not lost?

"What constitutes bad fruit?"

What constitutes good fruit?

"There seems to be an attempt to say that believers can not bare bad fruit, at any time after salvation. If I am misreading, please make your position clearer."

There seems to be an attempt to say that believers don't have to bear any good fruit, at any time after salvation. If I am misreading, please make your position clearer.

larry said...

jon said:
Are you saying that anyone who does not bear good fruit is lost?

What constitutes bad fruit? Sin??? Lostness???

There seems to be an attempt to say that believers can not bare bad fruit, at any time after salvation.


jon,

That's a very good question. Can a Christian bear bad fruit, or no fruit at all? The Bible seems to say no:

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.


That being the case, what would you say the process of sanctification is?

all2jesus said...

Jon said...
"There seems to be an attempt to say that believers can not bare bad fruit, at any time after salvation. If I am misreading, please make your position clearer."


Of course we continue to fall into sin (bear bad fruit) after being saved, but we do not want to. Our desire is for holiness. Though we sometimes sin, there is strong evidence of the new life in Christ.

Suppose you and I are at a funeral. I walk over to the body, place my hand on its brow, pray a loud prayer and announce that the funeral is now over: the dearly departed has now returned to life! Shock and dismay descend upon the scene. You walk over to inspect my claim. The body is motionless, the eyes are closed, the flesh is cold as clay. There is no pulse and no breath. You find this "work" of regeneration completely lacking in evidence. Do you rejoice anyway or decide I am a lunatic and make sure I am forcibly removed before I bring further pain on the family?

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Cor. 5:17

johnthebaptist said...

Billie said.....

Reply to the knock of the King of the Bloggers against Pastor Steve Gaines (my pastor)


I HEARD THE KNOCK ON MY GATE; IT WAS LOUD! ARE YOU UPSET WITH ME FOR TELLING YOUR READERS THAT YOU HAVE PLACED YOURSELF UP AS A FALSE IDOL (A kING AGAINST THE WORK OF THE LORD)?

I WILL GO BEFORE THE KING OF ALL KINGS TODAY AND IF HE WILL HAND ME THE KEY TO THE GATE THAT I GAVE TO HIM YESTERDAY, I WILL OPEN UP AND COMMUNICATE WITH YOU AGAIN, OTHERWISE YOU WILL HAVE TO JUST WAIT.
BILLIE

TRUE OF FALSE: AM I THE FOOL THAT YOU CLAIM THAT I AM _______

DID I LISTEN AND OBEY THE WORD THAT MY KING GAVE TO ME THROUGH HIS SERVANT NEHEMIAH AND LOCKED YOU OUTSIDE ________
READERS DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSION

WHO IS THE GREATER THE king OF THE BLOGSTERS AGAINST THE WORK OF THE LORD OR THE ALMIGHTY KING OF ALL HEAVEN AND EARTH?


Reply: I thought you were supposed to ask God for the key to gate BEFORE you respond? I am confused how this is supposed to work!
You respond that you will ask God for the key to the gate this afternoon...so did you steal the key? or did you hold back the key and just said that you gave it?

Did you have a duplicate key made??

Which is it?

Now to answer your silly quiz.

1)True.

2)Not sure..you respond but then you said that you will ask for the key this afternoon. I am leaning towards False.

Your last statement takes some work to understand because you can't seem to find the puncuation keys on you keyboard.

Jesus is Lord, Billie, even when you misapply scripture and have an holier than thou attitude. You labeled Nass king, not anyone else.

From you emails, you worship King Steve. You said that you even teach like him...which isn't hard if you down load is outlines.

RS said...

To all who are questioning the "Faithwalk" at Faith Baptist Church.

Please I beg you before you announce your yellow or red flags please go and talk to their Pastor. He is a Godly and scriptural man who is humble, honest and full of integrity. This is not just my opinion based on looking at their website, but comes from actually visiting that church and talking to the Pastor.

The emergent church is scary and we should question things that "raise a flag", but please let us do so with discretion and discernment before we imply anything about another church or person on this blog. Once anyone has done a careful personal inspection, then is the right time to announce your findings not before. I am embarrassed to say I have been guilty of this myself

Jon L. Estes said...

Lin: There seems to be an attempt to say that believers don't have to bear any good fruit, at any time after salvation. If I am misreading, please make your position clearer.

11:48 AM, July 19, 2007


I have not seen anyone come close to saying this. Can you give me a few post times I can check out to verify your accusation?

What I have been reading on this topic is... is that salvation is independent of works, totally; for salvation and as a saved individual.

Jon L. Estes said...

all2jesus
Of course we continue to fall into sin (bear bad fruit) after being saved, but we do not want to. Our desire is for holiness. Though we sometimes sin, there is strong evidence of the new life in Christ.


But this is not what you stated previously...

all2jesus,Faith precedes works, but the two are inseparably linked. While we are saved apart from the works of the law, true faith must produce righteousness; sanctification bears witness to justification. This is the work of the Holy Spirit present in every true believer. Remember Jesus' condemnation of the fig tree that didn't bear fruit. Remember his admonition concerning branches that don't bear fruit.

Your term must does not agree with you most recent post (cited above).

Can you see where there is confusion? It is either an absolute (must) or not (we continue to fall).

New BBC Open Forum said...

rs wrote:

"The emergent church is scary and we should question things that "raise a flag", but please let us do so with discretion and discernment before we imply anything about another church or person on this blog. Once anyone has done a careful personal inspection, then is the right time to announce your findings not before."

I wasn't implying anything about the whole church or any specific person, certainly not their pastor whom I stated I've heard nothing but positive things about (I may have just said that in an e-mail to someone, I don't recall, but it's true). However, having read the entire site about the "Faith Walk" which is being sponsored by Faith Baptist Church, I came away with some strong conclusions about this event. It doesn't matter to me how someone "explains" it, it still raises red flags for me. I don't need anyone to explain what it already says in black and white. If that information is somehow inaccurate, then someone needs to correct it. Otherwise, I would urge people to, as Lin would say, be Bereans. Do your own homework and make up your own minds. But this sheep has seen enough, thank you.

Thank you for your thoughts, Larry. I understand the cost. Addressing the things you mentioned, I'm still bothered by the secrecy shrouding this event and how someone can "sponsor" someone else without his or her knowledge or permission.

You know, I don't see much difference between this and the idea of a prayer labyrinth which so many have criticized.

all2jesus said...

Jon said...

all2jesus
Of course we continue to fall into sin (bear bad fruit) after being saved, but we do not want to. Our desire is for holiness. Though we sometimes sin, there is strong evidence of the new life in Christ.

But this is not what you stated previously...

all2jesus,Faith precedes works, but the two are inseparably linked. While we are saved apart from the works of the law, true faith must produce righteousness;


You overlooked the illustration completely and my statement "Though we sometimes sin, there is strong evidence of the new life in Christ." You are trying to equate works of righteousness and complete perfection, i.e., if we are not perfect now, we might as well forget righteousness altogether. But what does Paul say? "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Phil. 3:12" To be perfected in Christ Jesus is the desire of the regenerate heart and it (our sanctification[1][2]) is the continual work of the Holy Spirit abiding in us.

Now let me tell you what you must do today, Jon. You must keep breathing, eating, and giving ample evidence that you are alive. This will cause your family joy and prevent them from delivering you to the undertaker.

Lin said...

"I have not seen anyone come close to saying this. Can you give me a few post times I can check out to verify your accusation?"

Here we go again. No thanks, Jon. How about we let the readers decide. There are two threads full of your comments for them to get the picture...that is...IF you don't delete your comments as you have done on another blog.

larry said...

nass,

The prayer labyrinth encourages prayer even if the participant has never heard of Jesus.

The Faith/Emmaus walks are completely Christ-centered.

Although they are both experiential in nature, they're nothing alike.

(I think you have mail.)

Jon L. Estes said...

Lin said...

"I have not seen anyone come close to saying this. Can you give me a few post times I can check out to verify your accusation?"

Here we go again. No thanks, Jon. How about we let the readers decide. There are two threads full of your comments for them to get the picture...that is...IF you don't delete your comments as you have done on another blog.

1:24 PM, July 19, 2007


You are mistaken, I have not deleted any of the posts I submitted. On this thread or any of the others.

Piglet said...

larry

After reading all the posts and the website on the Faith Walk, I don't recall any mention of actually "walking". Is Faith Walk, Tres Dias, etc., creative names for a three day interactive conference like Family Life does for couples?

Jon L. Estes said...

Lin,

I reread your post and you are correct I did delete my posts from another blog, but not this one.

It is interesting though that those deletions do not have my name on them as who posted them originally. I believe I know how you know.

;-)

Lin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ezekiel said...

Jon,

Are you "author"?

Deleted by Author

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon,

You misread what Lin said. She said "...IF you don't delete your comments as you have done on another blog." I think she was referring to this one. No one's accusing you of deleting your comments on this blog, although for the life of me I still don't understand why a full-time pastor of what appears to be a church that's apparently in the middle of a building program has the time to spend blogging all the time.

You never answered a question I had earlier which was, do you visit the members and potential members of your church -- either during regular visitation times or say, when a member is in the hospital? I was just curious how you seem to have so much time on your hands. I also don't understand why you think it's your duty to continue to come here and criticize us. (I got the idea you somehow see yourself on a blogging mission from one of your own blog posts.) I can only conclude you just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

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