From StopBaptistPredators.org comes this interesting article about the failure on the part of the leadership of First Baptist Atlanta to inform the congregation that a prior children's minister who had worked at their church for 19 years had sexually abused children while on staff at at least one Texas church. While there is no evidence that anyone at FBCA knew about this man's past while he was on staff, the question is, why didn't they inform the congregation once they did know? Imagine how many children this man was in contact with during those 19 years!Yet when three representatives of S.N.A.P. tried to pass out flyers to congregants leaving the Atlanta church one Sunday, security guards tried to run them off. It's not known how much of a background check, if any, the staff of FBCA did on Tommy Gilmore before hiring him, but with the "code of silence" so prevalent in the SBC and other denominations, it's doubtful a routine background check would have turned up anything. But people in Texas knew. Yet they said nothing.
Read more about Tommy Gilmore and his trail of victims here.
623 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 623 Newer› Newest»gmommy said...
Where did everyone got to church today......
We visited Ellendale Baptist. Steve McAlister, Executive Associate Pastor and Minister of Missions at Kirby Woods Baptist Church, was the guest preacher (interim pastor Tim Seal is on vacation.) McAlister preached an incredible sermon on the need for integrity in the pulpit. Watch for it on the Ellendale web site.
" concernedSBCer said...
11+: We aren't talking culture here. We are talking reverence. Worship is not for us; it's for God. It's not about showing how holy we might be, it's about acknowledging how Holy He is."
I agree with you. All worship must be reverent (Psalm 89:7, Lev. 26:2, Mark 12:6). I refuse to judge someones heart and motive because their worship practice is different than mine.
David worshiped in dance (2 Sam. 16:14) and we all know how many Baptist feel about dancing. In Jewish history, they worshiped with movement and clapping and raising of hands. Another Baptist no no in many circles.
I believe we can do what you say concerning worship in ways that are loud to some, fast for others, scary to even more and their hearts can be acknowledging the holiness of Christ.
"Earlier you said something that was crucial to this discussion of culture: no one should judge how others worship. EXACTLY. I am so tired of being told I'm NOT worshipping because I want to use a hymnbook, pray silently, and sit still. "Be still and know that I am God." Ps. 46:10
10:08 AM, July 30, 2007 "
I appreciate your way of worship, as you have stated. You should not be told you are wrong because it does not fit someone else's ideal. I now reiterate, we should not tell others they are wrong because their way does not fit our ideal.
I believe we hurt ourselves and what we are hoping to communicate when we paint with to wide a brush.
Mom4,
It was not that I was offended, though I appreciate your heart for making apology. I was concerned that any bitterness towards others would not be good for you. Some people can't help what they say, they believe differently or are simply confused, they need our concern not our criticism.
FWIW, I have to be careful so that I don't demonstrate bitterness when I have been hurt also.
socwork...
I'm with you on Bakker. He and his entourage reek of the world.
soc,
Yeah, there is a lot about what he is doing that I disagree with yet I find myself asking, would Jesus go to their church on Sunday? Would He reach out to them?
I am reminded of who Jesus went to church with when He walked upon this planet, a bunch of sinners. Not once did He tell the priests to quit being priests.
I want to be truthful but not condemning towards others. I have, in my family, a homosexual sibling. If going to church with them (and yes, they attend church in the Memphis area) opened the door for me to share more, then I would go.
Condemnation does not bring opportunity to share the truth that so needs to be shared.
11 yrs,
When you start to consider the watering down problem, the change of style, new or old music or whatever the change, you need to look at what is prompting the change.
What is the purpose behind the change? And ultimately, where does the change lead the christian?
Numbers 22:5 5So he sent messengers to Balaam the son of Beor, at Pethor, which is near the [a]River, in the land of the sons of his people, to call him, saying, "Behold, a people came out of Egypt; behold, they cover the surface of the land, and they are living opposite me.
Now who is the king of Moab? Balek.He is the leader of the nation that historically were bitter enemies of the people of Israel. (God's people, us today) Decended from Lot through incest with his daughter. They gloated when God crushed Israel. Moab is simply people that continue to live "opposit" to God's people. (2 Peter 2:15f)(Non Christian, them today.
Balaam was a prophet. Some bibles will tell you that he was a sorcerer or a deviner. I disagree. He was a prophet and talked directly to God. Numbers 22:9-13. He was however a prophet that worked for money. There in lies the problem.
God told Balam not to go with Balek to curse Israel. But he went anyway. His donkey told him not to go. (Num 22:28)but he went anyway. He certainly knew by now that God was not happy with him, but he went anyway.
Now, he eventually got to Balek but even then, he could only say what God told him to say. He was a prophet, remember?
Balaam's problem was that he wanted the money and was trying to figure out how to get it without angering God. So rather than just come out and curse them which would have been direct disobedience, he chose instead to work through the women of Moab to entice the sons of Israel into immorality and worshiping Ball. Moab's god.(Num 31:16)
Balaam was killed when Israel attacked the midianites. (Num 31:8)
There are Balaams out there today. Many of them. What they seek to do is to get the money while avoiding outright disobedience to God. So what they do is they preach parts of the word, just enough to have one thinking all religious and pios then overlook sin in the camp, and in fact encourage it by telling one that grace covers everything, sin is under the blood and other outrageous things, all geared to acting and looking religious while actually leading God's people into sin.
Balaams Lies
See also Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.
The sin here is partaking of all the world has to offer. Under the cloak of christianity and salvation. And we do it today.
Regardless of the change, the focus has to be Christ. The WORD.. Repentance. Perfection In Him. A life ever moving from one of sin and depravity to conformance to the image of Christ.
If your church is leading you into more sin, or excusing it by saying that it is covered by grace or under the blood, If one finds that it is easier to accept sin in one's life every day chances are pretty good that one has a Balaam in their midst and he has one on the wrong path.
AKA...Balaam's Donkey
I haven't posted but only a few times. I read most days.
I am writing this in ref. to BBC Open Forum comments about Miss Billye. I have close relatives who have known this woman for many years. She counseled some of their friends and according to their opinion she is straight up and one of the most godly women they know.
My family members said, "If Miss Billye called you a skunk then I had better take notice because she wouldn't say it if she did not know it" That may not be exact, but close.
I have been confused over these past months trying to figure out who is right and who is wrong. I am young and all of this confusion is awful.
Who are the, "skunks"? They say you are and you say, more or less, they are along with the preacher?
Who am I suppose to believe? I have been doing my own investigation and in all honesty I am beginning to think that Miss Billye may be right.
I have carefully gone back and researched her postings and many of those who responded about them.
I'm sorry, but I did not hear hatred in what she wrote. What I see is woman who deeply loves God and is highly upset with harsh ugly remarks being made about people who she believes loves God and are her brothers and sisters.
My dad says we have a right and a duty to take a stand in the Lord and defend our family. I have come to admire this woman for what she is doing.
I do not know who any of you are by name from her postings, but you have made her name well known.
Our singles class has been great over these past several weeks and for the most part I hear nothing but good remarks about Dr. Gaines. I really believe that everything is heading in a good direction. I'm staying!
Kaylee
bbc11,
Thank you for your concern, but I am not bitter. Anyone that knows me knows me as a fun, loving person full of life and laughter. I think sometimes perceptions are in a defensive mode when reading my postings.
I will say that me and many others have been deeply wounded by Steve Gaines and his administration and the Lord has given me peace about my scriptural stand against the administration. I will ask you this, what do you think of his treatment of Jim Whitmire and Mrs. Rogers?
Yeah, there is a lot about what he is doing that I disagree with yet I find myself asking, would Jesus go to their church on Sunday? Would He reach out to them?
I have no doubt that Jesus would spend time with them and reach out to them. I do not, however, believe that he would tell them it's ok to stay in their sin.
I am reminded of who Jesus went to church with when He walked upon this planet, a bunch of sinners. Not once did He tell the priests to quit being priests.
And did Jesus tell them it was ok to continue in adultery, theft, cheating, etc.?
I want to be truthful but not condemning towards others. I have, in my family, a homosexual sibling. If going to church with them (and yes, they attend church in the Memphis area) opened the door for me to share more, then I would go.
Great, but would you agree with Jay that it's ok to continue to live in that homosexual lifestyle and call oneself a Christian? Does God's Word support that idea or negate it?
Condemnation does not bring opportunity to share the truth that so needs to be shared.
Neither does "tolerance." As I said, Jay doesn't condemn, but he's not sharing the Gospel either - at least not the Biblical Gospel.
Kaylee,
And tell us, dear, just how do you feel about a sexaul pervert who sodozmized his son being allowed to continue to work with children?
Just what part about Dr. Gaines do you like with regard to his decision to just shrug his shoulders?
Tell us, Kaylee, do you have ANY idea how many victims just ONE pedophile will have? Do you have ANY idea that there is NO SUCH THING as a reformed pedophile?
Do you have any idea how devastating it was to have PW " counsel" the women who had been sexually abused only to have him take further advantage of them by asking gross, sexual questions of them?
Are you aware that SG sent him right back to doing his job, KNOWING that he would be " counseling" women who had been sexually abused as children?
Do you think that was an appropriate decision for SG to allow PW to work in, knowing that he had sodomized his own child?
Do you think that SG had any sense at all in allowing PW to sit in judgement of those of us who had been sexually abused? PW was to determine if we were "FIT" to work with children?
Stay at BBC if you want to, but do not come on here, in your infinite wisdom and tell those of us who were victimized further by SG and PW that SG is a fine man.
SG stated plainly, for all to hear, tht he felt Compassion for PW.
That was a knife in the back to those of us who have suffered at the hands of a sexual pervert/pedophile.
Don't lecture us. Some of us have lived through something that you know nothing of. Otherwise, you would not think that SG is such a great man.
Kaylee
Do you think that Sg was showing good leadership skills when he and 3 deacons climbed a fence with a no tresspassing sign on it?
Do you think that SG showed good character when he went to the Union city church and slammed his own sheep?
Do you think that SG is being a good shephard when he REFUSED to acknowledge that he has to abide by MATTHEW 18?
Do you think that SG is a biblical scholar when he suggestes that when the Bible lists the qualifications for ministers, that he just refers to them as " guidelines"?
Go and do your homework, Kaylee. Just the things that SG has ADMITTED to is enough to know that this man has a problem.
Stick your head in the sand with ms. billie tapp. She is in denial.
Should you choose to join her, that is your business.
But don't come in here indicating that we are ' skunks' just becuase we DEMAND integrity in the pulpit.
Obviously, you and ms. billie don't care about that, becuase if you did, you would be outraged by SG's lack of same.
"Yeah, there is a lot about what he is doing that I disagree with yet I find myself asking, would Jesus go to their church on Sunday? Would He reach out to them?"
All you have to do is crack open your NT to see exactly how Jesus handled these situations. He went and told the truth. And many times they did not like it at all.
"I am reminded of who Jesus went to church with when He walked upon this planet, a bunch of sinners."
And your point? I mean did he tell them to continue in sin? I am not sure I understand exactly what you are trying to communicate here.
" Not once did He tell the priests to quit being priests."
Huh? Whitewashed tombs? Brood of vipers? Wonder what he meant by that?
"I want to be truthful but not condemning towards others."
Is the truth condemning? It sure was for me. I am wondering how you get around that one.
" I have, in my family, a homosexual sibling. If going to church with them (and yes, they attend church in the Memphis area) opened the door for me to share more, then I would go."
What is the purpose of church?
"Condemnation does not bring opportunity to share the truth that so needs to be shared."
Why is it condemning to share the gospel with someone? But I can tell you, if they go to Jay's church they will never hear that homosexuality is a sin. They will be encouraged to read McLaren and the Desert Fathers.
Jay is preaching a different Gospel and a different Jesus. Having tatoos and meeting in a candy store have nothing to do with it. I like the Candy store part. Low overhead and more money to missions.
Kaylee wrote:
"What I see is woman who deeply loves God and is highly upset with harsh ugly remarks being made about people who she believes loves God and are her brothers and sisters."
I think "harsh" and "ugly" are overcharacterizations in the vast majority of cases. But it's okay for her to call "us" (who should be considered her "brothers and sisters" as well) "skunks" and "trash" and the like? It's okay that she and those who agree with her give a wink and a nod to Steve Gaines allowing a confessed sexual predator to remain on staff for six months and call it a "mistake of the mind"? And it's okay that SG has stated that the Scriptural qualifications for a pastor are just "guidelines"? And that in his opinion PW should still be on staff? (Which, when you think about that last one, is a bit of a contradiction, isn't it? If he still thinks PW should be on staff, then what mistake did he make?) What is wrong with you people?! "Uncharted waters," my Aunt Petunia! It's called "common sense."
"I have come to admire this woman for what she is doing."
You know, I will say this for Ms. Billie. Say what you will about the woman (and I can say plenty based upon her writings), but at least, as misguided and nutty as I believe she is, she's not been shy about speaking out for what she believes (I guess) to be right. And that's more than I can say for 99% of the men at BBC. That doesn't make her any less wrong for following a man, but she certainly hasn't been shy.
"I do not know who any of you are by name from her postings, but you have made her name well known."
With all due respect, she was the one who "outed" herself by signing her name. Prior to that she was known only as a "Bellevue grandma."
"Our singles class has been great over these past several weeks and for the most part I hear nothing but good remarks about Dr. Gaines. I really believe that everything is heading in a good direction. I'm staying!"
And that's your decision. No one's trying to convince you to do otherwise. All we can do is provide information. It's up to you to choose what you want to do with that information.
You say you're young. I gathered as much from your previous posts. I'm just concerned that people like Ms. Billie are teaching "young minds full of mush" (as Rush would say). It's downright scary!
If you liked Bill Clinton, you're gonna LOVE Steve Gaines.
Kaylee, As you said, you are young.
But you have to ask some hard questions, Kaylee. Is it ok for a pastor to ignore scripture and allow a pedophile minister to stay on staff? That is a blatant ignoring of 1 Timothy 2 not to mention 1 Corinthians 5. Should we just ignore the scriptures we do not like? If the pastor does not think scripture is important in ALL situations, shouldn't that scare you?
Those scriptures are very clear, Kaylee. As a seminary graduate and pastor for 20 years, didn't Gaines know better? Or, did he just not care?
You said that you did not know what to think. Quit listening to people (including me) and read the scriptures in context prayerfully. Let the Holy Spirit teach you the truths of the Word.
We have ONE teacher:
Matthew 23
8"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
9"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for)One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
11"But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
12"Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
Kaylee said...
I haven't posted but only a few times. I read most days.
I am writing this in ref. to BBC Open Forum comments about Miss Billye. I have close relatives who have known this woman for many years. She counseled some of their friends and according to their opinion she is straight up and one of the most godly women they know.
My family members said, "If Miss Billye called you a skunk then I had better take notice because she wouldn't say it if she did not know it" That may not be exact, but close.
I have been confused over these past months trying to figure out who is right and who is wrong. I am young and all of this confusion is awful.
Who are the, "skunks"? They say you are and you say, more or less, they are along with the preacher?
Who am I suppose to believe? I have been doing my own investigation and in all honesty I am beginning to think that Miss Billye may be right.
I have carefully gone back and researched her postings and many of those who responded about them.
I'm sorry, but I did not hear hatred in what she wrote. What I see is woman who deeply loves God and is highly upset with harsh ugly remarks being made about people who she believes loves God and are her brothers and sisters.
My dad says we have a right and a duty to take a stand in the Lord and defend our family. I have come to admire this woman for what she is doing.
I do not know who any of you are by name from her postings, but you have made her name well known.
Our singles class has been great over these past several weeks and for the most part I hear nothing but good remarks about Dr. Gaines. I really believe that everything is heading in a good direction. I'm staying!
Kaylee
____________
Reply: Kaylee, you best course of action is not to take Billie's side or this blog's side. Your best course of action is to read and study your bible like you never have before. Pray like you never prayed before. Ask God for discernment. Align everything you have questions about or whatever the Holy Spirit pricks your heart about with scripture. If you have trouble with something and need help, seek a Godly person who isn't apart of BBC for unbiased spiritual direction.
Let the Lord of Hosts direct you in your path. God alone can show you the way.
You have read the posts so you should know the points of disgreement. Let the Holy Spirit lead you according to the Word of God. You will not be disappointed.
I am sure your family members counsel to you was well meaning. Let me make two points to you.
1) I, like a few here, have emails from Billie that could not re-enforce your assessment of Billie's character. I will not show you these but I tell you the truth.
2) Billie has more than once called people here trash and skunks. Here is what Billie, your family members and perhaps yourself have forgotten..... The brothers and sisters in Christ that is so flippantly called trash and skunks are the same people that Jesus died for.
Yes Kaylee, Jesus died for the trash and skunks of this world. Having said that, when someone gets saved, the Holy Spirit comes into their heart to live, so let me ask you this...is the Holy Spirit trash and a skunk too?
If there was any love from Billie, she would be eager to reach the "trash and skunks" with the love of Jesus but all she has done was build a wall with multiple keys. There is misuse of scripture and much hate in what she writes to people.
Are you sure you want to follow this "holy" woman?
There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof leads to death.
Kaylee, study God's Word and seek His face. His truth will guide you.
You know, I'm about sick and tired of hoity toities like ms. billie and kaylee coming in here and calling us skunks.
As for me, personally, it was DEVASTATING for SG to announce his compassion for PW and to believe that he should still be on staff, working with abused woman and to be around children..
I have VERY GOOD reason to walk away, and that does not make me a skunk.
I lived thru something horrible as a child, and it never really goes away. It still affects all aspects of my life, with or without my knowledge. I struggle with " stuff" every single day of my life.
And to be called a " skunk" by a fellow christian just because i OBJECT to a man that would coddle a man who sodomized his own child.
It's not enough that "they" ( ms. billie and kaylee) don't have a problem with pedophlia or sexual perverts, but they have to find fault with those of us who do.
It is BEYOND hurtful to have to sit here and read that I am a skunk because I object to this attitude of coddling a criminal.
My only hope is that when ms. billie and kaylee get to heaven, God would have them to see how hurtful and insensitive they have been not only to survivors of incest, but to the victims of these TWO men ( SG AND PW)
Kaylee,
I appreciate you reading the blog and trying to find out what has happened over the last year +. However, you never once said you pray and read scripture, in context. It's truly not about what Ms. Billie says, or I say, or Dr. Gaines says....it's about what God says. You are young. I beg you not to be deceived into thinking the Christian walk is easy. It requires a dedication to study and sometimes walking alone against the tide. Have you visited other solid churches? Sometimes seeing differences help you to become more searching and discerning. You are welcome to visit with me anytime. Other solid churches have been mentioned here as well.
With regard to Dr. Gaines....go and read I and II Timothy. That's a good start. :)
About Jay Bakker...and his mom's funeral:
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=543
I will try to respond the best I know how. Most people at church do not believe Dr. Gaines responsible for Mr. W remaining on staff considering that other people on staff who were in counseling knew and did not report it. Most everyone I talk to about this ask why didn't his mother, sister, the friends he confided in, or even his wife report it instead of taking it to the staff of BBC. One of his friends who the son told works for a well known financial attorney and he has an accountant degree. I agree that that man needs to answer for his poor judgment what he was told was not a church matter it was a criminal act that should have been taken to the court of law. A lot of people did nothing. I only know what I hear and from the big picture I can not see how Dr. Gaines could be guilty of a criminal offense considering the length of time and all those who knew before he did.
The fense thing I don't know all of the circumstances but I did hear Dr. Gaines say that he should have used better judgement in several things he has done. I have been taught to try to use good judgement but sometimes I don't. I hope someday to be a missionary and I hope I am not refused because of some poor decisions I have made.
I believe in mercy and I had a friend to tell me some awful things she was doing and I did not tell on her but today I wish I had because I might have kept her, from a terrible car accident that took a life.
I guess this is why I have been so confused over all the bad talk against Dr. Gaines. I can kind of understand how he may be feeling over the situation. My family members believe that he has learned a painful lesson that will make him a better pastor.
I think for now I am going to just go with my feelings and try to better support the good things that our department is planning to do.
I really feel comfortable with my decision and I know my family will be relieved to know that I am going to stay with BBC.
I also want to say that I did not call anyone a skunk or trash, I repeated a statement made to me. I am sorry that I did not make myself more clear. When I read Miss Bilie's post about the skunks I kind of thought it was funny. She did not actually call anyone a skunk at least I did not think she was talking to me and I sometimes post on here, but I really try hard not to put anyone down and call them names. I noticed this afternoon that one blogger often refers to Dr. Gaines as Bill Clinton. That is not nice and he or she shouldn't do that kind of talk.
I have been reading my bible trying to find where Dr. Gaines is not saying something correct and I can not find anything wrong.
I hope this answers some of your questions.
Kaylee
Kaylee wrote:
"Most people at church do not believe Dr. Gaines responsible for Mr. W remaining on staff considering that other people on staff who were in counseling knew and did not report it. Most everyone I talk to about this ask why didn't his mother, sister, the friends he confided in, or even his wife report it instead of taking it to the staff of BBC."
While I don't disagree with your assertion that other people knew and didn't report it, that's not the point. Just because "no one else did it" doesn't absolve SG of his responsibility. IMO all who knew during those years are guilty. That doesn't make SG any less guilty! If family members and neighbors know a child is being abused and don't report it, but you then learn about it and don't report it, are you then not guilty because "nobody else reported it and they knew about it for years"? Duh.
The bottom line, whether SG reported it or not, is that PW was not and is not qualified to be a minister and if he wasn't going to report him, SG should have sent him packing, confiscated his keys, and shown him the door. But we all know he did nothing and wouldn't have done anything to this day (by his own admission) had the victim not spoken out. In fact, it's been reported that PW got a substantial raise during that six month period. How much plainer can one make all this?
"The fense thing I don't know all of the circumstances but I did hear Dr. Gaines say that he should have used better judgement in several things he has done."
What more do you need to know about it? Four grown men, led by the pastor, climbed over a fence surrounding a gated community, a community that was clearly marked with "No Trespassing" signs, and knocked on the door of a deacon who wasn't home at the time and intimidated his children. How hard would it have been, if their real purpose was to "reconcile with a brother" (does anyone still believe that?), to pick up the phone and call ahead of time? Or at the very least to ring the buzzer at the gate when they arrived? I still chuckle when I envision little MD trying to scale a 4-foot-tall fence, and a quartet of grown men jumping up and down on the gate actuator trying to get out, but really this is no laughing matter. What would you have thought had a resident of that community called the police, and you'd seen SG and his cohorts on the 6 o'clock news?
"My family members believe that he has learned a painful lesson that will make him a better pastor."
When he stands in the pulpit and states that PW is no longer qualified for the ministry and brings him before the congregation for a long overdue church discipline session, then I might agree with your family members. That still wouldn't make up for the other stuff, but it would at least be a start.
"I hope someday to be a missionary and I hope I am not refused because of some poor decisions I have made."
If you truly feel that call, then I applaud your decision. All the more reason to strive not make poor decisions now! It would seem though that by the time one is approaching the half century mark in life and has been in the ministry for half that time that one would have learned a little more by now.
"I also want to say that I did not call anyone a skunk or trash, I repeated a statement made to me."
No, but you endorsed someone who did, so by not rebuking her for it then or now, you don't seem to disagree with her assessment. You said and I quote...
"My family members said, 'If Miss Billye called you a skunk then I had better take notice because she wouldn't say it if she did not know it' That may not be exact, but close."
You also said:
"When I read Miss Bilie's post about the skunks I kind of thought it was funny."
You thought referring to fellow Christians as "skunks" in the manner she did was funny? Wow. I bet you busted a gut when Donna Gaines referred to "taking out the trash"! Or when her sister (a non-Bellevue member) said to a group of Bellevue members, "You're not a part of the ministry of this church, and it's time for you to go." I know I LOL'd when I heard about that one -- not!
"She did not actually call anyone a skunk at least I did not think she was talking to me and I sometimes post on here, but I really try hard not to put anyone down and call them names."
She didn't single anyone out, but rather she called us that collectively. Her message was crystal clear, and I doubt she was laughing when she wrote it. And no, I'm sure she wasn't referring to you.
"I noticed this afternoon that one blogger often refers to Dr. Gaines as Bill Clinton. That is not nice and he or she shouldn't do that kind of talk."
I've never heard anyone call him Bill Clinton, but I've commented myself numerous times that he reminds me a lot of Bill Clinton. And he does. That's just my impression.
"I think for now I am going to just go with my feelings and try to better support the good things that our department is planning to do."
...just go with my feelings...
Uh oh.
Oh, my!
Warning!
Craig Parker has been hired as the new Church Administrator at GBC.
Kaylee,
I would suggest a good listen to this sermon before you go and get all bogged down in religion..Mahan lays it out pretty well for us. Starts with what happened in the Garden, then what happened on the Cross. Then goes to what happens in you when you are saved.....
The GOSPEL
Kaylee....
Which group of Singles are you in?
Just curious.
Lynn
Most people at church do not believe Dr. Gaines responsible for Mr. W remaining on staff
... They can believe what they want to believe.....It was SG's call ...SG was and is the SR Pastor and SG MADE it his decision by TELLING PW his job was safe and his "sexual abuse "...not the words SG used...was under the blood!
considering that other people on staff who were in counseling knew and did not report it.
...Unless the report was full of lies....as I know personally it was, Kaylee...
the other people like Webb and JF that knew about PW were not the SR Pastor...HE sets the example for the staff...NOT SG taking the lead from staff...THINK!!
Most everyone I talk to about this ask why didn't his mother, sister, the friends he confided in, or even his wife report it instead of taking it to the staff of BBC.
All of those people SHOULD have reported the abuse to the authorities
BUT
it was right for the SR Pastor to be told that one of the ministers on staff at BBC was a sexual abuser, a sexual predator!!!
One of his friends who the son told works for a well known financial attorney
and your point is...?
and he has an accountant degree.
and being an accountant means the victim cannot suffer the affects from being betrayed and sexually violated and deceived by his own dad????????
and mother??
I agree that that man needs to answer for his poor judgment what he was told was not a church matter it was a criminal act that should have been taken to the court of law.
It WAS a criminal act...thank you for understanding that!!!!
But because PW was a minister at BBC and SG was SR Pastor....SG had a responsibility to the people of BBC to obey scripture concerning the qualifications for a minister....
and to PROTECT not the criminal but those the criminal did harm to and COULD do harm to!!
...I am one of the ones that was harmed by PW and by the cover up once it was known.
from the big picture I can not see how Dr.Gaines could be guilty of a criminal offense considering the length of time and all those who knew before he did.
Forget the criminal offense...can you not see how this is far worse than "poor judgement" on the part of a Sr Pastor???
SG disqualified himself as a pastor by this ONE act.
And how dare you or anyone else other than the victims of sexual abuse decide what the proper time frame is.
This horrible situation... handled correctly ...
would have made EVERYTHING completely different.
There would be so much less carnage everywhere.
I believe in mercy
I do too....but I believe in truth and reality and consequences for sin.
That is not nice and he or she shouldn't do that kind of talk.
....And the way SG and the leadership minimized the sin involved in sexual abuse,and rationalized the pain and damage to PW's son and to the other victims AND continue today!!!!
IS NOT NICE at all,honey.
Kaylee,
When you grow up, you will understand that people who get PAID to be leaders, should ACT like leaders.
Instead, you try to blame it on his wife, his sister, his neighbors' uncle's cousin.
I am amazed at what lengths you, and others like you, will go to in order to give SG a pass. It is truly painful to watch.
By suggesting that the blame be put on the other family members only shows me that you are ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY CLUELESS of the dysfunction of this horrible crime within families.
You say you want to be a missionary. I pray that if you learn of a pedophile among the children, you don't take it upon yourself to follow your hero's lead and just shrug your shoulders and allow him to continue on with business as usual.
Maybe you and ms. billie can get together and blame the victims. Anything so that Bill Clinton, oops, er, I mean, Steve Gaines doesn't have to assume responsibility for his FAILURE to PROTECT THE CHILDREN AND THE WOMEN OF BBC.
In kaylee's postings, I get the impression that she is perfectly willing to blame ANYONE, including pw's victim, rather than to admit that SG did wrong.
Ahhh, to be young and naive.
Kaylee says that she believes in mercy...But unfortunately, she only believes in mercy for the wrong doers involved in this. She has no mercy for PW's victims.
I think she should go and hold a vigil at the prisons and INSIST that all child predators and sexual perverts be let loose, After all, SHE believes in mercy.
so kaylee also said this:
"When I read Miss Bilie's post about the skunks I kind of thought it was funny."
HOW VERY NICE of you, miss kaylee...it's good to know that those of us who are REPULSED by pedophilia are laughed at by you and miss billie.
Tell me, do you sit there with pursed lips and folded hands and look down on everyone? Or just those of us who have suffered at the hands of a sexual pervert?
If it weren't for "so called" Christians like you, there would be more Christians.
There's a wolf inside, wanting to go outside and play with the children.
" Please, Steve Gaines, let me go out with the children and play, I PROMISE I won't harm them...I have harmed before, but I promise, this time, I really really mean it, I won't harm any of them."
So Steve Gaines has mercy upon the wolf and not only allows the wolf to go outside on the playground to play with the children, but buys him a big juicy steak to eat, to keep him out there longer.
When it is brought to Steve's attention that he allowed a wolf to go on the playground with the children, what does he do?
He says that he felt compassion for the wolf, and then he goes and find some naive women to defend him, and say that it's not his fault, because others before him knew that the wolf had harmed other children on the playground, so that made it ok that he opened the door and let the wolf out.
So Steve Gaines continues to hide behind the pained explanations of crazy women and young women, neither of whom care about the chidlren, but are in awe of the power of this man. It makes the women feel " special" by defending the man with the power.
SOTL,
Good story. Too bad it's not fiction.
Kaylee said...
"When I read Miss Bilie's post about the skunks I kind of thought it was funny."
Lynn's response:
Kaylee, What do ya mean, Billie calling us skunks is funny? Let me understand this cause, I don't know maybe it's me, I'm a little screwed up maybe, but Its funny how? I mean, funny like its a joke? Billie's a comedian? We're the butt of jokes? The jokes amuse you? they make you laugh... we're here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How is it funny?"
Kaylee: You must be very careful. You must not judge situations on "feelings." To base your decisions on feelings is a dangerous practice. Scripture is fact, and it is definite. Scripture must be studied in context and the character of God must be respected. You need to look at the big picture. Leadership at BBC has not shown integrity according to God's requirements.
In James it speaks of pastors being held to a higher standard. Dr. Gaines is going to be held accountable in a big way for what has happened because of it. He must repent and make things as right as possible before God and before those who he is in charge of.
In Matt. 18 it discusses how to approach a fellow believer who is sinning. That has been tried over and over but Dr. Gaines said that doesn't apply to him. Kaylee.....the Bible applies to all, doesn't it?
Timothy discusses the qualifications for leadership. Read through it....without rationalizing, and see how many Dr. Gaines does not fulfill.
You must look at this in the big picture. Your immaturity showed when you thought calling names (like skunk and trash) was funny. You wouldn't have appreciated us calling you that, I am sure. It's immature and unnecessary. And it certainly didn't make Jesus proud, did it?
concernedsbcer,
you are always so Nice...and such a mom....
and always,always,a Godly example !!!!!
how refreshing!!!!!!!!
" Brother, you are a dissenter and sewer of discord. "
this quoted from a letter on savingbbc.com
Is this the standard script used by everyone in the SBC???????
This sounds like the one used by BBC to pummell it's own....
I don't know the person who is the admin for the saving bbc but if this is the rebuke to him....the same used for many of us from BBC....Mmmmmmmmm....makes you wonder.
Ok beautiful truthseekers,
It's time to stop parcing the minutia with folks who are merely loyal to Gaines, because you're not going to convince anyone whom has made up his or her mind; besides, demonstrating a pattern or relating facts about the gymnastically partial investigation--the Coombs "congregational approved" charade, the charade of a "business meeting," the antagonism and alienation with individuals and families that simply expect an investigation, accountability and authentic resolution commensurate to Gaines' (and the other suits') failure--will only be equated with anger or hatred. Never mind the obsfucation, stonewalling, and all those contrived sermons.
I'm not game for any sermons of any kind, yet the spector of Gaines--buying a spread in Fayette County--yeah, the boyz hurt'n, learned his lesson and all--I am doubtful that he retains any wisdom I would need. I cannot believe it--the torch bearers of "personal responsibility"--making excuses and flimsy justifications.
I have such awesome respect for a precious group that is consistent with their values, even when it is one of their own, or costs them the fellowship of their own church, the loss of friendships and stomach-wrenching confrontations.
All together now--what up wid misplaced outrage?
You guys still act like you've got to justify yourselves to folks who've already bought the farm, folks like Miss Billie and Kaylee (and please be kind--anyone who can form a pretext justifying Gaines ethical lapse, then youth or some other influence is at play. Is it really that hard to have compassion for people who already love and embrace us? How about generating some compassion for those that antagonize us--it will purify your heart).
Stop being defensive and emotional, and let the offensive remark pass undisturbed. Upon the single basis of the PCIR alone, you have all the evidence to claim the high ground and you don't have to continue to justify your existence to anyone. Pouncing is sometimes needed with a real troublemaker, but let's try not to escalate speech that will not lead to productive exchange.
Kaylee, I won't say angry things to you and I hope that my friends around here will follow suit. You should question the gravity of the failure of leadership; the potential danger to children and anyone else he "counciled;" the message it sends to survivors for a rich and powerful minister to undermine his own credibility and get away with it--that really is an horrible witness to the world you'd like to win.
" MOM4 said...
I will ask you this, what do you think of his treatment of Jim Whitmire and Mrs. Rogers?
1:55 PM, July 30, 2007 "
Sorry it took so long for me to get back to the blog, life must come first. I can say I thought Brother Jim would be removed if we called Gaines. I think the way things were handled were handled in a very poor manner. I saw little to no consideration for the years of faithful service Brother Jim gave. I am trusting that God will give him a better place.
I'm not sure what treatment you are speaking of concerning Mrs. Rogers. Sorry.
"do you have ANY idea how many victims just ONE pedophile will have? Do you have ANY idea that there is NO SUCH THING as a reformed pedophile?"
I disagree, though I don't have a case study to prove you incorrect, I do know a very big Jesus who can reform anyone who has done anything. For me, making an absolute statement as is done above, leaves out the most needed absolute in existence: Jesus, in whom all things are possible.
GMommy, you are too kind. :)
I am somewhat perplexed that people can't seem to see the lack of leadership shown by many in places of church authority. It seems so obvious to me. Oh, it can be seen in the Catholic church as they tried to cover up their dirty little secret....but it needs to be understood that it's happening in the Protestant denominations as well, and not just in the cover-ups. It's in the prestige that is sought, the books that are written, the fact that many pastors don't pray for God's guidance when planning sermons; instead they buy one from someone else. It just sends chills up my spine.
Has it become a career over a calling?
If so, what can be done?
(my word verification starts with SBC.......seriously)
bbc 11yrs:
I guess my point is, the new pop culture type churches are doing church in a way that is different to us and we are uncomfortable with this. We need to be careful though because not all of these churches are watering down the gospel.
11,
I don't think that the issue is whether or not the contemporary churches really worship or not. The concern is the 'transitioning' strategy for changing an existing church to a contemporary format.
I haven't yet heard a consensus that the way Saddleback, Willow Creek, and North Point worship is wrong. However, they have said that traditional worship IS wrong because it doesn't beef up the numbers.
Numbers are not and never have been a useful metric for discerning God's movement. Any church that makes sweeping changes in order to grow a crowd is on very shaky ground since drawing crowds is not a biblical objective.
In their haste to become 'seeker sensitive' many churches have become member insensitive, and that's the real issue.
IMO
Part 1 of an interview between Ray Saba and a "high ranking" BBC staff member has just been posted. Can you tell from the staff member's responses who it might have been? Hmmm...
Larry wrote:
"Numbers are not and never have been a useful metric for discerning God's movement."
Even when the numbers are declining?
From the Saba/HRBBCSM interview:
SM: "Your definition of who’s hurting and mine is different. He’s meeting Wednesday nights with five couples for dinner...we match’em up. He meets regularly with folks for lunch, for coffee."
Shouldn't the definition of "hurting" be determined by the one who perceives he's been hurt rather than a HRBBCSM?
He (SG) meets with "couples" for dinner? Could this be the "deacon couples" SG mentioned in the September 24th business meeting? And on Wednesday nights? He can go out to dinner with a group of people on Wednesday nights (what, no singles allowed?), but he can't find the time to preach on Wednesday nights? Amazing.
And how does one get an invite to one of these little soirées? I'd like to hear from or just of one person who's attended one of these special dinners/luncheons/coffees. This sheep is still waiting to be "matched up." I'm free the next three Wednesday nights. And I'm hurting but probably not by the HRBBCSM's definition. Baaaaaaa!
"
In their haste to become 'seeker sensitive' many churches have become member insensitive, and that's the real issue."
I do not disagree with you, though I wish when we speak of churches doing wrong we would speak specifically and paint with such a wide brush. I am referring to the term "many". What makes many, many? What are the names of those many churches?
I could not say this because I have only been to about 15 different churches (other than BBC) over the past 2-3 years and I would say each of these churches were solid churches.
I just finished reading Ray Saba's Part 1 on Savingbellevue.com and, to steal a phrase, "it made blood shoot out of my eyes."
We must all realize Bellevue as we knew it is dead. The remaining staff have little to no integrity. The staff member who made those claims to Ray either is not a Christian or he is backslidden to a scary degree. The heartlessness of Bellevue's leaders shocks me more than anything. Somehow they have no heart for the thousands, not hundreds, THOUSANDS of people who have a problem with the pastor and Bellevue's senior leadership.
My question is this: It is apparent they are dug in, so what are we figthing for? Is a post-Christian Bellevue worth fighting for? Is it time to let Bellevue go?
By 'many' I simply meant that the most of the churches I've seen transition their worship services from traditional to contemporary have not shown sensitivity to the congregation.
I won't mention specific church names in a public format, but if it's important for you to know you can email me.
proverbs,
"Heartless" is exactly the word that came to my mind as I read that. I bet if you got real close to him and yelled into his open mouth there'd be an echo. Hellooo... hellooooo... hellooooooo!!! It didn't make me angry. It just sent cold chills down my spine. They could strap this guy onto the front of a big fan to use as an A/C source and save a lot on utility bills!
Larry: BRAVO on your 8:58 post!
"do you have ANY idea how many victims just ONE pedophile will have? Do you have ANY idea that there is NO SUCH THING as a reformed pedophile?"
I disagree, though I don't have a case study to prove you incorrect, I do know a very big Jesus who can reform anyone who has done anything. For me, making an absolute statement as is done above, leaves out the most needed absolute in existence: Jesus, in whom all things are possible.
SOTL,
Please Please leave this.
This is the script we have heard all along.
The same one I heard from the deacon officer so many months ago.
We don't have to justify or convence them...the facts are the facts.
We know they hide behind the very Word they have made a mockery of.
PW is busy with his new job of financial/insurance planning and sales and still clueless of the damage he has done.
SG is busy taking trips, spending money,and digging for scripture quotes to make the thesis of his sermons that point to himself and not Christ.
We here have been enlightened to so much......we are damaged but not broken.
We will continue to stand even when our legs are wobbly.
Your story yesterday highlighted some very good points on why many won't see or deal with that rancid elephant that has made a mess everywhere.
We stared it in the eye and called it by name......literally!!!!
Let them keep stepping in the elephant dung.
WE KNOW THE SMELL....
:)
I just have this picture of someone with their eyes closed, holding their hands over their ears, and with their mouth singing "lalalalalalalalalalala."
So what I'm wondering is, how much of that is just being deluded and in denial, and how much is a deliberate smoke screen.
BBC11years said:
do you have ANY idea how many victims just ONE pedophile will have? Do you have ANY idea that there is NO SUCH THING as a reformed pedophile?"
I disagree, though I don't have a case study to prove you incorrect, I do know a very big Jesus who can reform anyone who has done anything. For me, making an absolute statement as is done above, leaves out the most needed absolute in existence: Jesus, in whom all things are possible.
my reply:
LOLOL!! you, sir, have NO idea what you are talking about.
Leave your children with a "reformed pedophile" and then let's talk.
gmommy said:
PW is busy with his new job of financial/insurance planning and sales and still clueless of the damage he has done.
My reply:
WHO would buy frm this sexual pervert/predator/pedophile?
He must have been given the sexual pervert/predator/pedophile market?
The man belongs in jail.
"LOLOL!! you, sir, have NO idea what you are talking about.
Leave your children with a "reformed pedophile" and then let's talk.
10:19 AM, July 31, 2007 "
Are you laughing at and disagreeing that Jesus can reform anyone of anything? That is my point.
I never said we should leave our children with anyone we choose not to leave them with. I spoke of the greatness and ability of Jesus to reform anyone, anywhere of anything.
Please say you believe Jesus can reform anyone, anywhere from anything. Please.
"I disagree, though I don't have a case study to prove you incorrect, I do know a very big Jesus who can reform anyone who has done anything. For me, making an absolute statement as is done above, leaves out the most needed absolute in existence: Jesus, in whom all things are possible."
So, in this case, one has to wonder why there was no repentence in 17 years? (This would include stepping down as a MINISTER according to 1 Timothy)
The man, after all, was a minister of prayer working in a church and I assume owned a Bible or at least had access to one.
Don't forget those pesky facts...his own son threatened to out him if he did not fess up to the pastor. Then the pastor keeps him on staff and gives him a raise!
BTW: My cousin interviewed pedophiles in prison for a case study. Guess what? Several were professing Christians and even admitted that they could NOT be around children. The temptation was too great.
It never ceases to amaze me how the secular world is more concerned with protecting victims than professing Christians.
I haven't heard from the reverend about dinner or social time to discuss my support or lack thereof. Maybe I have tainted my reputation by playing with you blog folks! LOL
Oh well.
I know R Saba from years past and I suggested to him early on it was useless to waste time with any of this. He is probably a better Christian than I and is heavily burdened for the church. God bless him for caring enough!
These people are all high and mighty when it's someone else's kid..but personalize it for them, and it's a different story!!!
gmommy,
Will your Jesus reform anyone of anything?
Is there a sin that Jesus will not forgive, other than the sin of unbelief?
I do not condone the leaving of a confessed pedophile in any position where children are or on a staff on any church but that is not the only issue. Jesus is the main thing and with Jesus all things are still possible. Even the reforming of any person of anything. If not, then we are all in deep trouble.
P. Williams should have been fired immediately, no if ands or buts.
The comment to which I replied stated:
"do you have ANY idea how many victims just ONE pedophile will have? Do you have ANY idea that there is NO SUCH THING as a reformed pedophile?"
I disagree, there can be SUCH A THING because my Jesus is big enough to reform anyone, anywhere of anything.
Please say you agree.
Don't let your hate for the pedophile or pedophilia get in the way of the great God we have. Jesus hates pedophilia but died for the pedophile.
ya know, eprov, I haven't been extended an invite, either!!!
You would think that with my file being passed around up there that they would know that i have, um,
"issues"
Ok, SM..I want an invite and I want to go to " the broken pot"...very expensive, but, what the heck...it's BBC, they can afford it!!!
bbc11
Until you are ready to tell me that you will leave your child with a confesed Pedophile that Jesus has healed, this conversation is moot.
You talk out of both sides of your mouth and I think you know it.
This conversation is OVER until you agree to the above.
"So, in this case, one has to wonder why there was no repentence in 17 years? (This would include stepping down as a MINISTER according to 1 Timothy)"
Agreed.
"It never ceases to amaze me how the secular world is more concerned with protecting victims than professing Christians."
I know you are not speaking of me and my remarks.
My whole comment is based upon the greatness of Jesus and His ability to reform anyone, anywhere of anything.
Please tell me you agree that Jesus is great enough to reform anyone, anywhere of anything?
That's all my post stated in response to the words:
"Do you have ANY idea that there is NO SUCH THING as a reformed pedophile?"
In no way have I downplayed the victims tragedy but I have spoken of the Lord's capability.
Think of it this way... convincing a pedophile that he is no longer attracted to children is as impossible as convincing a non-pedophile that they are attracted to kids.
What is important to understand is that child molestation is not always about “sex” itself. Yes, pedophiles are sexually attracted to children, however the motivation is more about power and control – than it is about sex.
11yrs wrote:
"I disagree, there can be SUCH A THING because my Jesus is big enough to reform anyone, anywhere of anything."
Of course He is! I think there have probably been a few, but most aren't. That's been proven. Why do you think the victim won't let his own children be alone with PW? Whether they're "reformed" or not, only they and God know, but we can never assume they are.
You summed it up yourself...
"I do not condone the leaving of a confessed pedophile in any position where children are or on a staff on any church... "
Okay, so what's the problem? I think (I don't purport to speak for her) that what SOTL is saying is that we can't assume any pedophile is "reformed." They can never be trusted, and they're also not qualified for the ministry, at least not Scripturally. Now, if you accept the "Gospel According to Steve Gaines"... well... that's a different matter.
Jesus is more than able to forgive and reform the most vile sinner.
But, He does not do so apart from repentance of sin.
This is not about the power of our Savior. This is about a man who serially raped his son, all while being on staff of a church as a minister, never confessing, repenting, or resigning.
A " reformed pedophile" sits alone in a windowless room, with a dead bolt lock on the door.
Outside, there are parents with children who claim, righteously, that a pedophile can be reformed.
Which parent will step up to the plate and leave their child alone in the room with the " reformed pedophile"?
The pedophile is only ' reformed' when someone else's kid takes the risk.
When it is YOUR child, there is no such thing as a reformed pedophile.
Ya know it is funny...something happened at a church here to illustrate this point. An associate minister was caught embezzeling church funds for a gambling problem.
He repented, paid it all back and everyone in the church said, he must be reinstated. So, guess what? The temptation was too big...bigger than his 'Jesus' and he did it again! (This happened over a period of about 8 years)
This church failed to see the wisdom in 1 Timothy 2. It says an 'elder' (includes preachers, ministers) must be above reproach to the 'outside'.
This embezzler should have been welcomed back into the Body for worship and discipleship but putting him back into a ministry position was a violation of scripture. When we will ever learn that scripture says what it says for a reason?
In the case of PW, he never even publicly confessed to the church Body! And he was the minister of prayer.
I read in Ray Saba's report the following:
"All I want to do tonight, as I mentioned to Ray, he's been pretty vocal on some of the issues in the church and about Steve specially. Just want to hear what they were.
It's amazing, in the past six and a half months I bet I didn't have, I haven't had ten people calling asking questions".
This staff member is lying and obfuscating. I was in attendance with 9 other men on a Wednesday afternoon in June having just about the same conversation as Ray Saba with this same staff member. I personally know of 20 others that spoke directly with this man.
No, many may have not called on the phone, but many have met directly with him and some more than once.
Joseph Goerbells said that if you tell a lie, and make it a big one, enough times then people will soon begin to accept it as the truth.
This same man told us that there were, in fact, more than the ten he spoke of who had come to him.
It would be more convincing to those that care if he would remember which story to tell.
It is plain to those seeking an interview with Dr. Gaines that "The Keeper of The Gate" will not allow anyone other than supporters to meet face-to-face with Dr. Gaines.
This is all about who will have power and control of Bellevue Baptist. The current leadership or THE LORD JESUS.
Jesus hates pedophilia but died for the pedophile.
10:55 AM, July 31, 2007
I am confused. Isn't PW a professing Christian?
socwork wrote:
"This is not about the power of our Savior. This is about a man who serially raped his son, all while being on staff of a church as a minister, never confessing, repenting, or resigning."
And there you have it.
The situation with PW being left
in secret
by SG
as a minister
with access to children,
pre teens, and women that were previously violated by sexual predators like PW
Has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether "my" Jesus can forgive the sinner or the sin.
The fact that SOTL or myself have or will
FORGIVE PW, or those that violated us,
has nothing to do with what was done wrong at BBC or what our platform is.
PW's sin and forgiveness is between him and God.
None of my business....altho sometimes I would like it to be....
We have played this deflection game with those who think themselves more righteous than the other.
Play by yourself....or with those as decieved as you are.
God changes HEARTS who are then sickened by their OWN sin.
The damage caused by lust for power,control, gratification, and greed are real!....
and the one who caused the damage should desire to make things right...not ignore and whistle thru life in denial.
Not have expectations of others and what they should do for them.
SG is responsible for his decisions that has affected many lives.
PW is responsible for the sexual perversion perpetrated on his own child and people like myself and only God knows who else.
They will both pay now or later....
are you demanding anything from them??????
I owe you no statement you ask from me. I have done no damage to you.
Go ask something of the ones who take no responsibilty and who have done the damage and call it mercy and grace.
aslansown -
yes to the 'power and control.' That is the reality of life in the business world. Why in Heaven's name would I want to deal with the 'world' in the Church. No, thank you. They can have it!
OK...
so socwork and aslansown
said it better.
And let's not forget that a child (God forbid, "children") was not the only victim of this sexual predator. I personally know of several women he "counseled," and his vile behavior towards them most definitely fit the profile of a sexual predator. It's not about attraction to children or homosexuality. I have no idea and will not speculate as to whether either of those labels applies to the person in question. It's about power -- pure and simple. All pedophiles are sexual predators. Not all sexual predators are pedophiles. I'd like to see people use the right terminology. Say it with me: "PW is a sexual predator."
Repeat with me: "Steve Gaines allowed a confessed sexual predator to remain on staff for six months." {shudder}
I am thinking back to the Jan. 29 ( ?) meeting at BBC with regard to the PW report.
I went up to David Combs after the reading of that ridiculous report, and he laughed in my face. When confronted by witnesses 5 minutes later, he looked me straight in the face and told the witness that he had never seen me before.
He had no idea that the witness watched the entire episode unfold.
It was at that point that I told David Coombs that he is a liar.
Apparently, from Mr. Saba's rport, Mr. Coombs is up to his old tricks.
LIAR LIAR PANTS ONFIRE!!!
bbc 11 yrs,
I would agree that Jesus can reform a pedaphile or any other type of sinner.
However, that is only through confession, repentance and His forgiveness.
This sin, while initally private resulted in a flood of corporate sin. Sin against the church. You can not say that the damage that resulted in PW's continued counceling of victims is anything else. All He was doing was finding another way to feed his perversion. While he may have repented from the initial sin, the following sin committed by feeding his lust, and that is all it could have been, is committed against the body of the church and requires public confession, repentance and forgiveness. To handle it like it was, cheats everyone of any possibility of reconciliation or healing. This affected the entire church, it was a public sin, requiring a public confession. The mere fact that he did nothing other than to keep doing it...counseling...tells us that he is unrepentant, the sin is unconfessed. Just becasue he got caught at it doesn't mean it is over...
If the administration would deal with it as instructed in the WORD, reconciliation of a brother and healing of many could happen. As it is...just one more excrutiating blow to the very people that God would have us heal and restore through love...
For months, we have had folks come on here and admit that it wasn't handled apropriately, even SG. but no steps are taken to fix it...just sweep it under the rug.
Then we have plenty of folks coming on here counseling people to not become bitter or angry....
Resolve the sin following biblical guidelines and healing can begin... until then, let's avoid the condemnation of the victims in defense of the guilty. Lest we come off sounding like clanging brass...
Weighing in here on the turmoil at BBC..
I see NO reason for anyone who has issues with ANY of the illegal and immoral acts going on in the administration to remain a member unless the Lord directs them to do so.
In an act of protest, WE ALL need to have our membership removed from the church. One can still attend if that is your liking, you can even give tithes and offerings and not be a member if you choose and of course, we can all rejoin if we wish (they can even add us as new members to get their numbers looking good). It seems that if we all did it effective on promotion Sunday, August 12th it would be a statment that there are more than 10 of us who have scriptural issues with the administration's unscriptural actions.
I wonder what kind of wake-up call that would be? Or would they sleep thru it?
SOTL wrote:
"Apparently, from Mr. Saba's rport, Mr. Coombs is up to his old tricks."
Why, SOTL, whatever gave you the idea the HRBBCSM was Mr. Coombs?
been redeemed,
Interesting idea. I know many have not moved their membership just in case anything ever comes to a vote. Fat chance that's ever going to happen! So if someone knows he's not going to stay at BBC, there's no reason he can't have his name removed from the membership roll if he feels so led.
been reedemed,
About two months ago, I had my name removed from the membership list. I have not joined another church, I just didn't want my name on the role of an apostate church.
We can rejoin if a vote on anything is imminent - but like you said...I doubt they will EVER allow that, things might turn around if it did and they have no intention of running things according to scripture.
August 12th.....has a ring to it.
" ezekiel said...
bbc 11 yrs,
I would agree that Jesus can reform a pedaphile or any other type of sinner. "
That's all that I said and I am glad you agree. The rest of your post is a portrait of events which need to happen or have happened. No problem with that.
Bottom line: Jesus is still the answer.
"Resolve the sin following biblical guidelines and healing can begin... until then, let's avoid the condemnation of the victims in defense of the guilty. Lest we come off sounding like clanging brass...
12:21 PM, July 31, 2007 "
I've missed where anyone has condemned the victims. That would be wrong.
To All:
I am not in support of any pedophile remaining in any position where children can be accessed.
There seems to be a need to pick apart my words but remain silent on words that have been stated which are not true. These words, againa, are:
"Do you have ANY idea that there is NO SUCH THING as a reformed pedophile?"
These words, if believed by a Christian, infer that Jesus is not as big as the Bible says He is.
I am wishing to help each of us see that misused words still mean what they say and I do not believe that the one who wrote these words believe them.
I do not know of any pedophile which have been reformed. Of course I do not know any pedophiles, except one and it is not up to me to make a judgment in his case. But to reemphasize the value of my Lord, Jesus is great enough to reform anyone, anywhere concerning anything.
One can not agree with this statement and agree with:
"Do you have ANY idea that there is NO SUCH THING as a reformed pedophile?"
also.
I believe that everyone here is seeking truth and when one of our own says something that is not true, we ought to be able to point it out without condemning or being condemned.
"I've missed where anyone has condemned the victims. That would be wrong. "
11+, here are the words you wrote to a victim of sexual abuse:
"Don't let your hate for the pedophile or pedophilia get in the way of the great God we have."
Why do you think what they have written is hate? Should we not hate sexual perversion? How does what they wrote negate the Holiness of God?
Should we not expect the church, The Body of Christ, to deal with sexual perversion of a minister of prayer scripturally?
Was Jesus being hateful when He called the Pharisees a brood of vipers? Why did He do that?
In these seeker sensitive days, the calling out of sin makes people very uncomfortable.
You need to think long and hard about this: The sexual predator who never publicly confessed his sins as a minister of prayer 'ACCEPTED' Christ long ago.
What does that tell us?
Lin said: "When we will ever learn that scripture says what it says for a reason?"
AMEN.
When will we learn that scripture has to be stuidied so we know what it says?
GMommy said: "God changes HEARTS who are then sickened by their OWN sin."
This is the crux of my whole confusion here. PW, publicly, has shown no remorse or repentance. Granted, we have no idea what he has done privately. However, the sin affected an entire church. Repentance should have been public.
Ezekiel said: "Resolve the sin following biblical guidelines and healing can begin... until then, let's avoid the condemnation of the victims in defense of the guilty. Lest we come off sounding like clanging brass..."
Excellent Point. 'nuff said.
11yrs,
Without putting too fine a point on it, when you start admonishing these hurting people to:
"Don't let your hate for the pedophile or pedophilia get in the way of the great God we have. Jesus hates pedophilia but died for the pedophile. "
I take it as accusing or condemning them for such. I think the responses that you are getting tell you the same thing. You are not the first...probably won't be the last, that come on here and admonish these hurting people...God's people...while just agreeing something should have been done...then just brush it off and tell them Jesus is big enough to save the pedophile.
Whether you intend to do it or not...you know, I don't...you stir up more anger and bitterness than you help put salve on...
Sort of like showing up at a hospital and telling a patient of a drunk driving, hit and run that has left one paralized and pain that he will suffer for the rest of his life, to just ignore the pain...and Jesus is big enough to save the driver...
The Jesus we know would be standing there hurting for them, showing compassion and love...and healing them...while his angels were looking for the driver....
"But to reemphasize the value of my Lord, Jesus is great enough to reform anyone, anywhere concerning anything."
Let me re-emphasize: The sexual predator we are discussing was a professing Christian. A minister of prayer who at one time obviously 'accepted' Christ to be in the position he was in for 34 years.
What does that tell us in relation to what you wrote above? Think about it...no one that I know of on this blog does NOT believe that the Holy Spirit cannot regenerate whomever He pleases...that is not the point. The Sovereignty of God is not the issue. It has NEVER been the issue.
Seriously, I am trying to figure out YOUR point. Of course a sexual predator can be regenerated by a Holy and Sovereign God.
But tell me, where does it leave us when the sexual predator is a professing Christian and 'minister of prayer'?
bbc11years:
And here we go again.
Leave YOUR children with a pedophile who claims to be reformed.
Otherwise, SHUT UP!!!!
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A REFORMED PEDOPHILE>
You only THINK you don't know a pedophile, Sir. Ahh, so nice to be naive, and have such a perfect life that YOU would never come into contact with such people. That was a pretty arrogant statement.
One in 4 girls and one in 6 boys will be sexually molested before their 18th birthday.
Look around you. Do you know 4 grown women? Chances are that at least one of them were molested as children.. Do you know 6 grown men? Chances are that one of them, too, were molested as children.
Go ahead and defend the pedophile as being " reformable" but your insensitive words are hurting more people than would ever admit it to you.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A REFORMED PEDOPHILE.
Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it!!
SO PLEASE, unless you are willing to leave your child alone in a room with a " reformed" pedophile, just SHUT UP!!! DROP IT!!!
11yrs,
I'm not condemning you at all. I think we're probably on the same page or at least close. However, the question remains, if someone says he's a "reformed" pedophile, would you leave one of your children alone with him? (And if you don't have children, use your imagination.)
Remember, only the pedophile (or in this case, the sexual predator -- remember we shouldn't misuse words) and God know if he's reformed or not. So would you, knowing what you know, leave one of your children (or if you're a man... your wife, girlfriend, loved one, etc.) alone with a stated "reformed" sexual predator, no matter how repentant this person seems? How about with PW? Yes or no?
I'm reminded of the words of Ronald Reagan, "Trust but verify." In this case, the only way to "verify" is not to put a child, wife, girlfriend, loved one, etc. in such a position for something to be able to happen. I pray there weren't any more victims of PW during his tenure at BBC, but you have to admit the statistics aren't in his favor. What if, heaven forbid, another victim ever comes forward? I can hear SG now... "But he told me he was reformed! It was 'under the blood.'" How comforting that would be! This is not in any way denying the power of God to forgive any and all sin. It's called common sense.
I just hope if another victim does come forward that those who have defended SG's inaction and "loved on" PW while ignoring the first victim, would treat the next one with a lot more compassion.
bbcI do not know of any pedophile which have been reformed. Of course I do not know any pedophiles, except one and it is not up to me to make a judgment in his case. But to reemphasize the value of my Lord, Jesus is great enough to reform anyone, anywhere concerning anything.
----------------
I do not know you but I would guess you to be fairly young. Why?
Because tho' your musings re:pedophilia and the enablement of God (which I do not argue) to cleanse one of any sin are, IMO, in the grey situational ethics/politically correct category.
The hard cold facts are that experts both secular and Christian (Dr. James Dobson for one) who have studied this sin have stated (and research has proven their statements to be true) pedophilia is a deeply engrained sin that is like a terminal cancer. Even those who once preyed on childrern and are now new creations in Christ have stated they cannot trust themselves to be around children -much like any addict having to stay away from the temptation of whatever he abused.
In order to protect innocent children, it is a fact that a known pedophile must not have access to them - even if he is repentant. Any thinking, informed person knows that FACT. Why then would anyone in the ministry in these times with all the knowledge available not know nor act on the danger?
Any sin can be cleansed by the blood of Christ but some sins are so ingrained and insidious that the one cleansed must be guarded by society,and on guard personally for the rest of his life. That is the consequence of the sin.
I have a question - If PW was reformed, then why did he continue to prey on victims during RECENT counseling sessions. I know at least 3 women he humiliated and victimized during supposed counseling sessions, wanting explicit sexual details of their abuse. He also kept his sin covered for 17 years all the while placing himself in a position over the already vulnerable amongst the flock.
He has yet to come before the church (along with others who have had to leave for immoral conduct). Why? ONLY BECAUSE THE PASTOR REFUSES TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE. And yes, I was screaming...
Could it be that SG does not want to act on the scriptural requirements because he does not want to be held accountable for some of his actions, past and present?
11yrs wrote:
"Of course I do not know any pedophiles, except one and it is not up to me to make a judgment in his case."
Really? I bet you know more than one. You may not know it and you may never know it, but I assure you that you do know more than one. (And please don't misuse the word. PW is, by all indications, a sexual predator.)
I invite everyone to check out these sites. Enter your own zip code and just see what you find:
National Sex Offender Registry
Tennessee Sexual Offender Registry
Then remember this. Probably less than one-tenth of the sexual predators in this country are on those lists. You won't find PW or Tommy Gilmore on that list. One has to be convicted of a crime before one's name is added to the list.
Think about this when you look at all the maps with all the little colored dots, each showing the address of a convicted sexual predator. Then imagine ten times more dots within the same space and come back here and tell everyone you know "only one" pedophile. I think you'll find it a sobering exercise.
Nass, Thanks for the links. And to think the professing Christian (ministers) sexual predators are NOT on that list because a CHURCH protected them.
Sobering huh?
Not meaning to change the subject at hand, but I have read the letters from Dr Hannaford as well as the auditor's report and other documents that have been previously mentioned.
Does anyone know who has access to the documents that refute these statements and reports about CT? This needs to be cleared up if there is no truth to it!
What is INFURIATING to me is that
BBC11 wants everyone, INCLUDING victims of this horrible crime, to think nice thoughts about the sexual predators in our midst..
He wants us to hold hands and sing
kumbaya with them...because after all, they have been cleansed by the blood.
Well, BBC11, what YOU do not understand in your " holier than thou" attitude is that not even JESUS would expect that from us..but of course,...you, on the other hand, have much more compassion and everything, since, after all, YOU don't know any pedophiles ( NOT)
Go ahead and hold hands with them, BBC11, but don't expect that from those of us who HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THE CRIME. We'll save that for the do-gooders out there who haven't a clue, who will light their candles and sway back and forth, hand in hand with the perverts, and sing kumbaya.
What is the difference between a sexual predator, an admitted sexual predator, and a convicted sexual predator?
NOTHING other than maybe the legal fees and court costs paid to date.
One of the 1st things I heard about BBC was from a business friend, not BBC members, who told of being very close friends socially with a couple with children same ages as theirs. The girl in her late teens / early twenties disclosed to my friend and his wife that her father had been molesting her for years. They were mortified. The guy and his wife sang in BBC choir.
So all of us should realize this is a very pervasive issue. The joke with my friend was that BBC provided a 'haven' for child molesters. He only had knowledge of the one case, but perhaps was prophetic. This was over 3 years ago and I never had the slightest idea what he said was true. It was his story.
To many of us this is probably a topic that is uncomfortable to listen to, much less participate in an open discussion.
I don't know SOTL from Adam but would respect her adamant resolve about this because of her having suffered abuse.
Sorry, I understand mercy and grace a little bit, but there is an instinctual gift for survival which God has given us. I would be strained to be the least bit sensitive to a perpetrator of this type abuse. My sensitivity would be with the abuse survivor who has found mercy and grace to live!
For those who insist that ANY sin can be reformed...go and read Romans 1 very carefully...there are more warnings against sexual sin than any other...there's a reason for that. There are lines which once crossed, can't be undone...that is the nature of it...contrary to popular belief, there are degrees of sin...some which are labeled as abominations by God, and for which there are stiff consequences. The blood of Christ can wash away any sin, but consequences are another matter. God does not wave a magic wand over our lives and undo what our acts of sin have done. To think so is to live in fairy tale land and degrade the seriousness and consequences of sin. Get your heads out of the clouds and into the word...take in the whole council of God.
Another immoral pastor...
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291582,00.html
s1st!!!!The Lord gave me permission to pass this under the wall but He strickly said, "The Guard stands over the gate"
I am speaking in a low tone, not shouting!
I think people should read the following, entirely, and understand that the letter was written to web master, Jim Haywood, who is gaining a reputation for master minding trouble in churches. Mr. Haywood is the leader of the savingbellevue web site formed against our beloved pastor Dr. Steve Gaines.
This letter is written by Dr. Chuck Hannaford, a psychiatrist, affliated with Germantown Baptist Church where Mr. Haywood exiled to after causing so much trouble in Bellevue.
I sincerely ask you to read this and please examine your hearts and motives for all of your negative blogging against our Pastor and our church administration.
Following the ways of Mr. Jim Haywood will end with the results which his witness and integrity has fallen.
I know the picture that some of you have formed of me is not good because I stand up for what I believe which does not agree with what you are doing and saying but I do care for each of you and I desire for your lives to end well.
We all get off the course sometimes but may we never be labeled as a "predator" against unity among the Body of Christ"
The following is a paste from the letter written to Mr. Haywood:
*****
I had a discussion with your Sunday School teacher yesterday who told me he asked you not to post this. He is by the way a member of the Board of Directors. Therefore, I am going to suggest since you did not respond to my requests, the scores of other requests you have received from officers of GBC, that we pursue whatever remedies available to us. I am going to forward a copy of this to the Chairman of the Board and several committee members. I am going to suggest that you be escorted off the property should you decide to come back.
You have been welcomed and treated with kindness, unfortunately you have responded with a self – righteous attitude refusing to even comment or return any form of communication. You are exhibiting the very narcissism you accused your former pastor of having. See bullet list below.
Ø It is my suggestion that Mr. Jim Haywood not be allowed to enter GBC since he has been coming to clandestinely tape sermons and reports which could have obtained by purchasing a CD. He obviously had a disruptive agenda since he took a portion of a sermon to substantiate one of his complaints. This was taken out of context to prove his point.
Ø I suggest that Mr. Haywood not return to GBC until he is willing to confess and repent publicly.
Ø I suggest that GBC pursue any legal remedy available to cause Mr. Haywood to remove all material about GBC from his website immediately and post a public apology for both its content and the harm said content has caused in the fellowship and business life of the church. We would have to develop an accurate estimate of tithes withheld during the period this material has been up in order that a fair and reasonable judgment can be rendered.
Ø If Mr. Haywood agrees to participate in legally binding mediation and arbitration, GBC would not pursue a legal remedy in the normal manner.
Finally, I pray for you. I believe you to angry or disturbed. It appears that you are only thinking about what you think you have a right to do without the consequences experienced by others. You are dishonest in your actions and dangerous to our body. The Bible talks about wolves in sheep’s clothing – it appears so in this case. Wolves hunt in packs and scatter the sheep and prey on the weaker ones. Brother, you are a dissenter and sewer of discord. You continue to wave a banner of truth and integrity but are unwilling to be truthful or stand behind what you are doing with integrity in a meeting of your peers. You have been called to repent. There is not one biblical principle you have followed in this process. Please see that I have copied two deacon officers and should they deem it appropriate to act on these suggestions, they will. I sincerely hope they do. They may also pass this communication on to others prior to a decision being made. I will make follow up calls to them tomorrow.
Chuck
PS from Billie
You can read the original letter on the savingbellevue site.
There have been so many wise and compassionate posts today.
I thank Ez and Nass, Mom4, Lin & 32+ for what certainly feels like protection and defense of those wounded.
I don't know that any of these friends have been touched personally by this awful sin but you took the time to care for those of us who have.
I'm grateful for that and hopeful that those reading that have never told anyone about sexual trauma in their lives will see that there are people out there who will comfort and protect them and not accuse.
That should be a given from our "church"....but then our "church" is not that building on Appling Road but the Body of Christ.
Based on the confession of PW that he sexually molested his pre teen son and verified by the victim....
based on what he did to me WHILE DISCUSSING SCRIPTURE....and those he "tested" for their "fittness" to be teachers...
PW is a worm of a man that got off on having power and control over those weak or wounded.
He DID NOT engage in sexual activity with his pre teen son....as DC read from the report....
PW sexually molested his own child while a minister and probably in the home of the dependant child.
Most have no idea how much life long damage that one detail causes in a victim's life.
There is a ton of manipulation and what a lot of us refer to as "spooky talk"...almost a hypnotic way controling the mind and spirit of the victim.
PW definitely had that down...I experienced that personally.
This sin corrupts the mind....like heroin or meth corrupts the mind... the more these sexual predators/perverts and pedophiles get away with...the more people that come to their defense....the more they feel justified and bold.
I'm not even discussing the heart and soul and body right now.
These frauds and deceivers are master manipulators......they come to believe their own lies and compartmentalize things in a way you and I cannot even comprehend.
You can stop being a drug addict long before you can get the filth and corruption out of your mind.
Once you use the innocent for your own gratification...."normal" no longer satisfies.
I doubt deeply that we could locate a pedophile that has actually "recovered".....
we may find one that has not acted on his perverted impulses for a period of time but how in the world do you know what is in his mind,what he does in private or whether he has been able to be "normal" again in a relationship?
A predator that can get off on talking to melt down a victim or humiliate....
they are very very cunning.....
PW is not the first I encountered....but definitely the coldest.
He had NO SHAME or FEAR in his eyes when I confronted him.
He knew he would be supported if I talked....he is a master manipulator!!!!
And he DID get the support he KNEW he would get!
No telling what manipulation he used when telling his story.
Don't you know how exciting it was for PW when the "investigative" board consisted of men...no women ,no advocate,no therapist!!!
The damage control guy was the most compassionate and he had NO training or understanding what so ever!!
PW was safe with that group!NOT the victims.
SG wouldn't even submit himself to meet with the victim and the predator in the same room!
That speaks volumes to me.
Then you have your porn perverts...(and like Nass implied... this can all be mixed....it's not cut and dry)
do you have any idea how the internet enables sexual predators????
Do you realize that "porn" is not the 1970's Playbook Magazine???
Sexual perversion heaped into the mind thru the eyes and other senses is IMPRINTED forever!
I have lived thru this.....
Itis NOT a sin like telling a lie or gossiping or even cheating on a test.
This sin is corrupting of the mind,body, and soul.....and does damage to everyone these sexual predators come in contact with on somelevel.
I know ONE couple that have remained married...the husband is a Christian and has repented before his family and the church.
They have worked HARD to rebuild trust.
Still this Christian man falls back into the sin of perversion......and his wife and children live in pain. He hates his sin...but cannot completely break from it.
I have all confidence in the power and purity of the Lord.
I have NO confidence that a sexual predator can be changed COMPLETELY and wholly and permanently while on this earth.
Ironic that Islam is a result of sexual sin. We are dealing with the consequences of that sin today.
Ok,
Just finished watching my favorite show, " little house on the prairie", where everything always turns out good.
Oh, but wait, there WAS an episode where a little girl was raped on her way home from school. Sadly, she ended up killing herself.
Tsk, Tsk, if only BBC11 had been there to explain to her that she just needed to embrace her rapist, sing kumbaya with him,think good thoughts about him, THAT episode would have ended up good, too.
Sigh...IF ONLY
so, billie,
what, exactly, are you saying?
That those of us who are repulsed by the INACTION of SG with regard to PW should examine our hearts?
Do you think that we should just ' make nice' and forget all about it?
Do you think that we should just forget that he doesn't care about "US" but he DOES care about the perpetrator?
IS THAT what you are saying????
billie,
reading your posts brings a deeper understanding and appreciation of Paul's admonition that a woman is to be silent. (That's about as honest an interpretation as you are able to conjure up in your posts!)
proverbs wrote:
"Another immoral pastor... "
Link.
And this and this are but two examples of what can happen to a perpetrator when a victim is pushed too far. You'd think it would make these sickos pause and think, wouldn't it?
And for any man who believes in keeping his wife "in her place," I'd remind him to always remember the name "Mary Winkler." Sleeping with one eye open wouldn't hurt either. You just never know when someone is going to snap, do you?
Hey, eprov!
Read the second part of my 5:09 p.m. post. You're treading on thin ice, buddy! :-)
Hey, eprov!
Heads up!
Thank you eprov and allofgrace.
CH is a psychologist....
and what difference does it make if a person ...whatever his occupation is ...
doesn't want the info about Claude published.
Should we all obediently follow???
IF there is evidence that says those documents are false....show them.
Otherwise.....it is black ink on white paper.
Can't believe Ms B thought a letter from someone would just change all of our minds.....
duh?
"I know the picture that some of you have formed of me is not good because I stand up for what I believe which does not agree with what you are doing and saying but.."
No, Ms. Billie, what 'you' believe does not line up with scripture. You are 'standing up' for a lie. Pure and simple. Bottom line is that you have to ignore lots of scripture to do so. We are the ones who are worried about you.
"We all get off the course sometimes but may we never be labeled as a "predator" against unity among the Body of Christ"
What unity? Unity of horizontal relationships? Unity of the Word?
May we never be labeled as 'predators' against the Unity that only comes from the Word of the Holy Scriptures.
By the way, do you consider sexually molesting your own child as just 'getting off course'?
new bbc....
please note how very carefully I framed my comment! Married 40 years and my wife takes no prisoners, if you get the drift!
OK...eprov...I was just thinking nice warm thoughts about you....:)
.......off the course sometimes but may we never be labeled as a "predator" against unity among the Body of Christ"
WHAT IN THE WORLD does this mean please.........
"There is not one biblical principle you have followed in this process."
More Irony! Has GBC has followed a Biblical process in having Claude Thomas preach there? Has GBC has followed a Biblical process in threatening to sue in a pagaon court another professing believer?
Oh, the irony never ends in the church of the 'flesh'. All because they are embarrassed to have that information made public!
Does anyone know Tommy?
Tommy Tester
Please know Ms. Billie that I respect a person who stands up for their beliefs. I too am not afraid to stand up for what I belive. And yes, your beliefs and mine appear to be 'opposing' to some extent - and we both claim to use the Word of God as our basis.
However, tt is important that we recognize where "beliefs" and "personal opinion" may not always mesh. In other words, your personal opinion may extend beyond actual beliefs - tarnish, as it were, your beliefs.
For instance - I think we both believe the teachings of Matthew 18.
However, our personal opinion of a mere man, albeit a Senior Pastor, somehow overshadows our belief in the application of Matthew 18.
Your posts seem to be dripping with piousness. Is this piousness stemming from your personal opinions?
What is the point of your posting here? Do you somehow confuse your personal opinions with "doing work for the Lord"?
I will admit, I have gone against one of my beliefs by posting a comment to you. Belief or personal opinion????
One thing I am absolutely sure of is my belief and my personal opinion that a sexual predator is NEVER reformed.
Thank you for the imterpretation,Lin...
off course....
sexual predator...
just off course....good thing sins are just mistakes.
What aog said specifically about sexual sins should be a no brainer for all ministers...if not all Christians!
Billie wrote:
"I know the picture that some of you have formed of me is not good because I stand up for what I believe which does not agree with what you are doing and saying but I do care for each of you and I desire for your lives to end well."
Gasp! You desire for our lives to end (albeit well)?! Is that one of those infamous "death threats" I've heard about? {fainting}
Show us the proof that the minister BS is supporting is false.
Show us a truly REFORMED sexual pervert/predator/pedophile...PROOF!
Are some of the power holier than thous now using their gifts at GBC?????
Ez, Seems Tommy Tester is just 'off course' a bit.
Maybe when his church comes up with bail he can be back in the pulpit next Sunday.
Sheesh!
"Show us the proof that the minister BS is supporting is false."
Well, there is a rumor going around that all 41 pages of detailed accusations against Thomas by his own deacons and an independent auditor have been proven false.
One would think they would publish that somewhere.
In any event, it sure did not take Thomas long to set up a new non profit ministry, though. Ministry as a 'career'. You have to wonder what they would do without 'donations' or 'speaking engagements'.
But then, seems very few are taking 1 Timothy 2 very seriously these days, especially the part about being above reproach to the 'outside'.
Hello all,
I have a situation in my family that I'd like to talk to someone about in private. I feel what is happening at BBC is wrong yet my husband disagrees with me and is telling our children otherwise.
I'm confused and need some advice from other mothers...could someone please shoot me an email?
Thanks,
-L
momliving4him3@yahoo.com
MMMMMM?
Anyone want to go park outside Eprove's house tonight and observe the demure coy silence of his wife? Ah-ha…. I'm hearing something now from yonder county. Now ya'll kiss and make up now.... Eprov was "kidding".
I just couldn't leave this alone. Everything is so serious and important.
Sing folks! Sing!
Cakes, I truly appreciate your attention to "our" concerns and value your friendship.
Miss Billie, I have a 3 x 5 card dated 5/9/93 on which I wrote the following:
"Question of the week"
"Am I in love with Jesus and the truth of God's word or am I in love with my beliefs and ideas about the love of Jesus and MY understanding of the truth of God's word?"
This card stayed with me for several years, as from time to time, I believe the Holy Spirit would bring to remembrance the very thing He had taught me, BUT which I had adapted to my own way of thinking. Again and again and again. I am not yet cured of my desire to be right or my desire to be "righter" than someone else, but as you can see, that card and others like it, are right where I can find them.
May you know the kindness of the Lord should discover that you have anything resembling “my malady” resident in your heart and mind as you address the issues before us at Bellevue and as you post your views as expressed on this blog.
Thanks NASS
Padroc
Okay....someone please help.
CH's letter.......he is wanting church discipline (against JH) it seems to me.
Fine. I think we need more church discipline.
Is this before or after CT preaches?
Please explain this to me..........
He is the pastor… he must be right
:o)
And another thing........... Why is JH in the wrong when BS brought in a pastor with, at the very least, a spotty record????
This seems to me to be the heighth of arrogance by CH.
What is happening to our churches???? Leadership should have integrity, both in the personal and public lives!!!!
***yes, I am yelling!!!!***
Lin,
It just occurred to me that's what Steve Gaines must be doing!
I don't talk about this often, but given how Billie and her ilk have defended the lack of action by leadership, I feel its important to share what happened to me when I was in high school. Now granted, its not exactly the same as a minister sexually assaulting a child, the lack of action by those in charge is simular.
At the high school I went to for my Freshman and Sophmore years, a fellow student tried to sexually assault me in class, but the leadership did NOTHING about it. This is even after I complained constantly to the teacher that this person and her friend were constantly trying to grab me below the belt. Eventually we were sent to the principal's office after the attacker climbed on my desk forcing herself on me as I sat in my desk trying to do my work. Nothing was done to the girl. NOTHING!!!! Eventually the girl moved to ohio, but the attack did leave me with scars mentally.
This is why it bothers me so much that the moonbats at Bellevue have allowed these vile folks to remain.
For Billie, how can you sleep at night knowing your supporting someone who doesn't give a hoot about those who are hurting. Its completely ascinine to justify Gaines role in the coverup. And yes, all those others who knew and did nothing should also be tossed out on their keisters.
Is the person BT referred to as a psychiatrist also on the pulpit committee at GBC???
just askin.....
New BBC Open Forum said...
Billie wrote:
"I know the picture that some of you have formed of me is not good because I stand up for what I believe which does not agree with what you are doing and saying but I do care for each of you and I desire for your lives to end well."
Gasp! You desire for our lives to end (albeit well)?! Is that one of those infamous "death threats" I've heard about? {fainting}
6:09 PM, July 31, 2007
Piglet says:
Okay, I am breaking my silence to LOL!!!!!
CH, CT, BS, JH, BBC, SBC, SG, GBC, FBC...anybody got the 411 on the alpha, beta, charlie?
Forgive me, I am just trying to catch up with what has been said today. Am I to understand that there was a discussion about what Jesus is able to do, specifically in regards to pedophiles/ sexual predators?
I just have to say this. It is not lofty, it is not intellectual, it is not even very 'theological', so to speak. So let me say this very plainly. Please bear with me.
11+, so far as I know,no one who regularly posts here denies the power of the Lord to change lives. Every one of our lives have been changed by His wonderful grace and yes, His chastisement also, which is also a part of His grace. So it is a little degrading that you would question the understanding of the Lord's power as experienced by a Christian that has gone through an experience you evidently know nothing about nor understand.
Let me say this, I know it is 1st grade Sunday School stuff. But here is my understanding of how the Lord sometimes works. Be patient with me, please.
I have known Christians who are handicapped, one of my brothers in Christ has no leg. He asked the Lord to heal him, the Lord did not give him a leg. I knew a partially paralyzed sister in the Lord, who begged the Lord to let her run, just one more time. The Lord did not cause it to happen. I know of an Apostle, by the name of Paul, who asked the Lord to remove a thorn from his flesh, that too was denied. I'll be truthful, apart from the Bible, I have seen more denial of healing than miracles, in that sense.
All that to say this. What can Jesus do? We all know He is omnipotent. He can do anything He wills. But look, although He has all power to do all things, and nothing is impossible for Him, he is not obligated to do anything.
Are we getting this? Can he heal the pedophile/sexual predator? Sure He can! Does He do it? I'm sure He has and does. But even if the perpetrator wants his sickness to be gone, it is not foregone conclusion that it will be so. And because of this, the innocent that are possibly his prey, cannot be sacrificed on the alter of chance in the hopes that the perp is healed. To take that kind of chance with another's life is to be an accomplice to murder, because in my opinion, sexual sin is the murder of the soul.
Just sayin,
oc.
Lin said...
Ez, Seems Tommy Tester is just 'off course' a bit.
Maybe when his church comes up with bail he can be back in the pulpit next Sunday.
Sheesh!
Piglet says:
I'm sure there is some good buddy in leadership somewhere who will vouch for his innocence (without proof , mind you) and give him the break he needs. Then if his crime gets publicized, folks can run someone out on a rail for being unforgiving, divisive, and what-not, even threatening to sue....
did I say that?
Back to my corner.
concernedSBCer said...
And another thing........... Why is JH in the wrong when BS brought in a pastor with, at the very least, a spotty record????
This seems to me to be the heighth of arrogance by CH.
What is happening to our churches???? Leadership should have integrity, both in the personal and public lives!!!!
***yes, I am yelling!!!!***
Piglet says:
DON'T FORGET YOUR ALL CAPS BUTTON WHEN YOU ARE YELLING! SOMETIMES YELLING HELPS DOESN'T IT? AAAAAAAHHHHHH!!
Boy, that felt good.
lin..."he must be the pastor - he must be right"
Comment: What else is there to say? Speechless might be good?
"Cakes, I truly appreciate your attention to "our" concerns and value your friendship."
It is rightly the concern of anyone who care for the safety and well-being of children and the vulnerable.
I am one of y'all, Padroc, on this eastern shore.
CH, CT, BS, JH, BBC, SBC, SG, GBC, FBC...anybody got the 411 on the alpha, beta, charlie?
Ha! I'm with you allofgrace! I'm a tad bit confused over here...
Cakes,
Hey friend!!! Getting excited about school!!!???
"'CH, CT, BS, JH, BBC, SBC, SG, GBC, FBC...anybody got the 411 on the alpha, beta, charlie?'
"Ha! I'm with you allofgrace! I'm a tad bit confused over here... "
CH = Chuck Hannaford
CT = Claude Thomas
BS = Bob Sorrell
JH = Jim Haywood
BBC = Bellevue Baptist Church
SBC = Southern Baptist Convention
SG = Steve Gaines
GBC = Germantown Baptist Church
FBC = First Baptist Church
Any others?
haha...I knew what most of those were...just injecting a little humor over all the shorthand.
MD = Mark Dougharty
CS = Charles Stanley
SM = Steve Marcum, but in the case of Ray Saba's interview, "Staff Member."
DG = Donna Gaines
RM = Rob Mullins
DS = David Smith
CP = Craig Parker
MS = Mark Sharpe
RE = Richard Emerson
CT = Chuck Taylor (or more recently, Claude Thomas)
JC = John Caldwell
DC = David Coombs
BT = Billie Tapp
MB = Mike Bratton
PP = Paige Patterson
FP = Frank Page
AR = Adrian Rogers
JR = Joyce Rogers
I'm sure I've left out a lot. Just ask if there's any further confusion.
MS = also Mike Spradlin
AOG = allofgrace
SOTL = sickofthelies
25+ = 25+yrs@bbc
ima = imaresistor
NBBCOF = New BBC Open Forum
NASS = notastepfordsheep
FBCA = First Baptist Church Atlanta
FUMC = First United Methodist Church
Anyone/anything else?
socwork said
FBC...anybody got the 411 on the alpha, beta, charlie?
Ha! I'm with you allofgrace! I'm a tad bit confused over here...
oc says,
Hey socwork!
Maybe the FBI and the DEA are in cahoots with the CIA, which in turn correspond to the ATF, and in conjunction with the DOT, correspond with the DNS, which in turn report to the most important organization in America. The GSA. Girl Scouts of America.
Just havin' fun.
oc.
NBBCOF,
How could you forget 'OC'?
That's excellent NASS - thanks! :)
oc,
May I?
NASS said,
oc,
May I?
oc says,
You may, sir, "King of the Blog". :)
oc = obnoxious Christian, or when posting as "stinky," odiferous Christian.
EZ=Ezekiel
If one reads the letter from CH...pay special attention to the threat of legal action.
A few thoughts...I did not think we were supposed to file suit on a brother? That is the first thing they trot out when people threaten to sue for disclosure...say a mailing list of members... I guess it is ok when the church sues an individual...but not the other way around...Can anyone give me scripture on that?
In the OT, when the members would question the priests...they just kicked them out of the church...remember the blind fellow Jesus healed? Remember how his family acted? Does anyone else see any similarity to the way they acted and what we see today? Jesus condemned that....
Then we get to the real story. Blame the loss of tithes on JH. He just has to be the guy in the wrong...otherwise, no one would have known and that money would have just kept pouring in....(sarcasm)
We sure can't hold BS responsible for not following the scriptural guidelines for a minister..."above reproach" ...not at all..(Sarcasm)
I can see JH's lawyer in court right now..."Mr. Sorrel...now just what are the requirements for a minister?...No, not yours...the one in the bible.."
What a circus. The scripture is there for a reason...You are seeing one of them.
NASS said,
oc = obnoxious Christian, or when posting as "stinky," odiferous Christian.
oc says: NASS: it's all out now, you outed me. :)
To Concernerdsbcer: it is what it is. :)
Try to find a anagram for CAKES--ha.
Lin said
Ez, Seems Tommy Tester is just 'off course' a bit.
Maybe when his church comes up with bail he can be back in the pulpit next Sunday.
Sheesh!
6:22 PM, July 31, 2007
Probably...and I bet the message will be on grace and forgiveness......
oc!
You gave me your express permission to "out" you! Which means, technically, you "outed" yourself. Now stop "whyning"!
King NASS
I have a few questions about the last letter on the website we have a link to.
Why is it clear that JH has an agenda to do harm to GBC by recording the sermon????
And how is it clear that JH wants to do FURTHER DAMAGE to GBC....and the ONLY conclusion that the letter writer can come up with???
Just from posting the information about the questionable behavior of CT???
I found it easily on the internet.
Since he accuses JH of posting slander and lies...where is the proof??
And if the reports are NOT the "whole story"...what is the whole story?
On the public apology and repentance demand....
was that asked of PW or SG by the letter writer when he was a member of BBC?????
"Dissenter...sower of discord"???
PLEASE....isn't there a different script available??? BBC has worn that one out!
where exactly was the letter writer when it was clear that many were suffering emotional damage at BBC from the cover up of PW by SG and "others"??
And the really IMPORTANT question...
Was there ever concern for the "weaker ones" that were being "preyed" on at BBC...???
I really feel a connection here and just need a little help.
Anyone have any ideas or answers????
OH...and I am also concerned the posting of the information may have a "determined effect" on the offering coming up shortly at GBC!
Ezekiel: "Blame the loss of tithes on JH."
Nickels and Noses? Is that all that's important?
(rhetorical question because I think most of us already know the answer to this)
NASS said,
oc!
You gave me your express permission to "out" you! Which means, technically, you "outed" yourself. Now stop "whyning"!
King NASS
oc says:
"whyning" ? Well, sir, we are going to have to talk in person, I believe. And just so you know, mister, that is not a death threat. Maybe.
Death threats are the providence of one Dr. Loney, I believe, as I have seen on one of my ventures into the dark world called "the Bratton Retort". And I would never venture into his threatening underworld without 'proper protection. (ie "Glock".) I am just a reporter,(Ahem ahem, 'security') though poorly paid, of the good Doctor Loney.
But, sir NASS, should you want to mess with oc, or the good Doctor,then you should at least know the consequences thereof.
So, are you ready, Mr. NASS? Can you take it, King of the Blog? Can you take the fact that if you are mean to me, I will tell my mommy? What if my dad is bigger than your dad? What if Dr. Loney smothers you in Spam? Where you gonna run, sir? If I were you, I would walk softly and carry a big stick.
Just sayin'.
Head of Security, detail to the Loney administration.
oc.
Remember when question after question about Clinton's behavior came out. Then trickle after trickle of reports of said behavior? Does anyone remember how the Clinton apologists handled these reports?
1. First, They deflected the issue by claiming that the information was gotten in an 'questionable' manner.
2. Then they hired private investigators to dig for dirt on the messengers.
Works every time.
Once again, I have to ask...If a crook witnesses and reports a crime does that mean the crime should not be investigated or even discussed? Does it automatically mean the crime is moot?
Do the leaders at GBC realize that I (and many others) saw the Thomas audit a while back on another site? This is not exactly a big secret.
I still wonder how much Thomas was paid to preach at GBC. Is that a big secret? Is it considered a sin to even ask?
From the Saba interview:
Q- Let me ask you since we're talking about new ministers, why hasn't there been a reaching-out effort on the part of the Administration to reach out to those who have been hurt and have been displaced?
SM - We've been doing it every day!
my thoughts: Well, well...is that so? If that were true, my family would have been ministered to LONG ago. Still waiting, but not holding my breath!
Why is Germantown in such a state and what does it have to do with the situation at Bellevue? I catch glimpses, but I don't think I've gathered a full picture of the context.
I'm not certain that dwindling numbers at Bellevue, in the short term, concern the administration. They likely figure they have the wealth and resources to weather the storm. Certainly, isn't it safe to assume that tithes alone do not provide the budget for BBC, but other investments, real estate, etc?
I don't know, but they don't seem to be sweating a dip.
To whom it may or may not concern:
I was very much looking forward to the nbbcof bowling party and now it seems I will also miss the "bratton burger bonanza". This just makes me (sic).(I'm still trying to figure out how to use (sic))
You see, when one goes and reveals personal information about themself on a blog(s), they must be prepared to reap the consequences(or rewards).
It seems the CDC caught wind of my 'meat-borne ism' immunity, and last night I was snatched from my futon and whisked away in a black van. Because I was blindfolded for the entire drive, I can only suppose that we are in Atlanta, as I believe that is their official headquarters location.
However, I am not a big complainer, and I must say that this little white room with no windows and a big mirror is not that bad. I have a nice bed, a computer, and a mini fridge stocked with...you guessed it, tainted meats(I'm in Loney heaven!). The guy over the loudspeaker advised me not to eat 'all' of it so as to save room for tomorrow which is 'poorly cooked chicken day'(can hardly wait!). In one ear and out the other though, because as long as the buffet is open I'm going to be buffeting. I haven't seen anyone for nearly the entire day, except for the white lab coat clad guy and the two burley orderlies who held me down as he took blood samples and did a vestigial
tail(s) biopsy.
Well, there's a couple of really 'rare' t-bones and a nice pink pork chop calling out my name, so later.
William T. Loney, MD
PS...this whole ordeal kinda reminds me of that episode of 'Cheers' when Norm got a job as a beer-taster
"It is my suggestion that Mr. Jim Haywood not be allowed to enter GBC since he has been coming to clandestinely tape sermons and reports which could have obtained by purchasing a CD."
See, it is all about money! Can you imagine Paul copyrighting his sermons and selling them on papyrus scrolls at a table outside the temple?
sweetcakes...you have mail
I really am waiting for answers blog friends.....help me out!
Has anyone had any news of Karen and her Dad? This is the really sad part about the scattering of the sheep. Since I know her parents I would already have had reports from my Bible Study group or choir friends. Alas, it's as if so many people I worshiped with for years never existed.
wow, I just read CH's letter to JH in full and I cannot believe what I am reading.
Instead of placing the blame on CT and on BS for bringing CT to GBC, he is instead blaming JH for POSTING the information about CT.
It does't appear that CH even cares if CT IS a crook, he just doesn't want the information out there so that others can see it. It seems that CH is worried about some offering that is coming up.
I'm wondering why CH even left BBC.
oc wrote:
"So, are you ready, Mr. NASS? Can you take it, King of the Blog?"
Bring it on, tough guy!
Make my day!
SOTL,
I am wondering the same things...and some others things I posted concerning the same letter.
CH's attitude is very curious to me...is it curious to you???...considering he didn't take the same stand concerning PW???
If the actions of PW and SG didn't get this same reaction....why poor JH?????
And BTW Nass, you forgot:
'WTL, MD'
PS: CDC- Center for Disease Control, or as I like to call them, "Center for Delectable Chow"
PSS: OC, for not being there at 1am this morning handling my security and preventing me from being whisked away in a black van so as to be brought to the CDC and forcefed tainted meats, you sir are....
going to get a big raise!!
You guys are not going to believe this...I've just been given a platter of rancid hoghead cheese(of course with hoghead cheese, it's hard to know)...among us Loneys, this is the ‘creme de la creme’ of foul animal byproducts.
Having reached the pinnacle of the 'palate peak', I think I might just be ready to die now.
WTL, MD
gmommy ponders:
If the actions of PW and SG didn't get this same reaction....why poor JH?????
SOTL replies:
BEATS THE HECK OUTTA ME! :)
Dr. Loney wrote:
"Having reached the pinnacle of the 'palate peak', I think I might just be ready to die now."
At least your life will end well!
Dr Looney!! Please don't take that last bite!! I so wanted to serve on your committee some day!!!!!
Goodnight to all my BBC friends who are scattered to the four corners of the Midsouth area! I miss all of you so much!!
Oh, and good night to my new friends who are not BBC refugees!
Sleep well.
gmommy said:
I really feel a connection here and just need a little help.
Anyone have any ideas or answers????
OH...and I am also concerned the posting of the information may have a "determined effect" on the offering coming up shortly at GBC!
==========================
I understand your angst. This is all like a bad dream that just will not go away. Here are my thoughts for what they are worth:
-BS was WRONG to invite someone to fill the pulpit even for one Sunday that has a blot on his record. That was a sad thing to do to a church that is still struggling from the blows of the past.
-JH was DECEITFUL in asking to be in the choir and then secretly recording the sermon and remarks made by the member of the Search Committee. He seems to have a bad case of espionagitis. And what was his point exactly? The info was already out there and the sermon and the remarks from the Search Committee member added nothing to it.
-CH is FOOLISH to put his anger and frustration and threats of legal action into written words that he knew would be published for all to see. His doing so is more evidence of how our emotions can override our common sense.
-A church can only subsit by the tithes and offerings that come in.
When people become upset and withhold those tithes and offerings, the church is in trouble espec. if there are no reserves. As long as I was at BBC, my tithe was given because I gave as unto the Lord. When I left, my tithe went with me to be given at another church..as unto the Lord.
-This one misstep by BS (and evidently he was very persuasive with the deacon body)who is not a member of GBC and is a paid consultant should not be an assumed pattern the church will follow. CT preached 3 Sun.'s and is gone. BS is probably leaving soon. Those in the body of Christ should be trying to support this church with prayer and encouragement - a church that has fought hard to maintain itself as an SB church and refused to join the PDC parade.
As Dr. R used to say: "The Christian army is the only army that shoots its wounded."
-We have to be careful to be discerning in these last of the Last Days, but we also have to be on guard not to be so busy critiquing that we forget who our true enemy is. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against
principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Ephes. 6:12)
-The infighting amongst the saints gets our eyes off our true enemy and we will lose the war in the process.
-As the "ain'ts" and those young in Christ observe all of this infighting, they will be stumbled and fall to the wayside.
JMO
SOTL,
When you wish to talk rationally I would love to dialogue about this with you, until then I really do not have anything to say to you except I believe you are a bright and intelligent person who is able to speak above the sarcasm and personal attacks.
Let me know when you want to talk, adult to adult.
For the rest of the bloggers let me state my position so you will know where I stand.
* I think PW should have been turned in immediately when the staff of BBC were told.
* I think SG should resign immediately, for the sake of the cross.
* I think the church will have many years to find healing, even if SG were to step down. And not only because of SG.
* I think there is another church out there for me, and I will find it.
* I believe Jesus is still bigger than all the sin and hurt any person is dealing with.
* I believe BBC should cover the expenses to seek out anyone else who could have been damaged by PW, while he was on staff.
* I believe BBC should be held responsible, as a whole, for decisions (or lack of decisions) they have made.
* I believe God can reform anyone but that does not mean we put that person in a place where he can still be tempted.
I refuse to let my alcoholic dad go to a bar. He's been clean for 20 years but I will lot let him go because I know. I believe he has been reformed but reformed people are still people.
I want every person abused to get help. I want ever abuser to get their day in court. I want all Christians to know Jesus can get them through this garbage but we must not let any sin of another get in our way of keeping Jesus 1st.
This is the reason for my statement. SOmeone stated:
"Do you have ANY idea that there is NO SUCH THING as a reformed pedophile?"
To which I continue to respond, this is wrong. I don' think this was stated to be a lie, it is just wrong.
OC said it clearly:
"11+, so far as I know,no one who regularly posts here denies the power of the Lord to change lives."
AMEN!
But this statement does not agree with:
"Do you have ANY idea that there is NO SUCH THING as a reformed pedophile?"
We can't believe one and say the other without contradicting our position.
Jesus is able. Don't let this be an offense.
"ezekiel said...
11yrs,
Without putting too fine a point on it, when you start admonishing these hurting people to:
"Don't let your hate for the pedophile or pedophilia get in the way of the great God we have. Jesus hates pedophilia but died for the pedophile. "
I take it as accusing or condemning them for such."
I can not help the way you take it but I can assure you it was not meant to be condemning.
To make my statement clearer, I don't stink you would accept for me to say. Please let your anger be so great for the pedophile and pedophilia that it gets in the way of your love for our great Jesus. That would be ridiculous. To be criticized for asking everyone to not let anything get in the way of Jesus seems childish.
"I think the responses that you are getting tell you the same thing. You are not the first...probably won't be the last, that come on here and admonish these hurting people...God's people...while just agreeing something should have been done...then just brush it off and tell them Jesus is big enough to save the pedophile."
Admonishing? I spoke with purpose to correct a very misstated statement. I did not want anyone here to, even by mistake, say that Jesus is not able to reform, save... a pedophile.
"Whether you intend to do it or not...you know, I don't...you stir up more anger and bitterness than you help put salve on..."
This was not my intention to post here but to be myself as I walk with God and love all people as Christ loved me.
"Sort of like showing up at a hospital and telling a patient of a drunk driving, hit and run that has left one paralized and pain that he will suffer for the rest of his life, to just ignore the pain...and Jesus is big enough to save the driver...
The Jesus we know would be standing there hurting for them, showing compassion and love...and healing them...while his angels were looking for the driver....
2:21 PM, July 31, 2007 "
Wrong. Jesus is Omnipresent, He can stand there and show compassion and love and healing while at the same time look for the driver and love him to Himself.
It will probably be better if I move on for it is obvious that this is one BBC member who supports your cause which is not supported.
If anyone wants to chat...
BBC.11yrs@gmail.com
IF only I were young, and had all the answers, and could admonish hurting people as though I knew what I was talking about.
IF only I could admonish those for hurting, who have been through something that I cannot even imaagine.
If only I were arrogant enough to think that I know what is best for others who are hurting from something for which I have no reference point.
If only I could say, " I do not know any pedophiles" in a condescending way that makes me superior to others.
Ah, to be young again and have all the answers, before " LIFE" happens and shows us that we are all vulnerable, hurting people who are just trying to make it one day at a time with the help of Jesus.
I notice that one of the letter written to Jim H. from Chuck H. also had a Carbon Copy sent to Curtiss D.who is on the search committee for GBC. My understanding is that Curtiss D. is a good friend of Jeff Arnold of BBC. JA was on the Pastors search committee for BBC.
Could it be that Jeff is coaching Curtiss D.??
Chuck H. is also a good friend of BS.
BS hired CH at BBC and I guess he hired CH at GBC.
How much Money do we pay CH at GBC for his services??
SORRY FOR THE LONG POST. DUE TO THE LENGTH, IT WILL BE DIVIDED IN TWO.
THIS IS VERY GOOD.
Marks of Maturity in the Ministry
by Warren Wiersbe
The work that the pastor does cannot be separated from the life that he lives. A man may be a successful surgeon and, at the same time, a compulsive gambler; or he may teach algebra with great success and get drunk every weekend. But the man in the ministry reproduces after his kind. This is why Paul warned Timothy, "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine..."(1 Tim. 4:16). Bad character can never live with good doctrine. Unless the truth is written on the pastor's heart and revealed in his life, he can never write it on the hearts of others.
It is for this reason that maturity is essential in the work of the ministry. As the pastor matures, his people mature; for the work we do flows out of the life we live. Paul was concerned that young Timothy's "profiting" be seen by all men (I Tim. 4:15), and that word profiting was an apt choice. It means "pioneer advance into new territory." Paul wanted to see Timothy mature - move into new areas of spiritual understanding and growth - because then his church would also mature to the glory of God.
There is a great difference between age and maturity. Age is a quantity of time; maturity is a quality of experience. Unfortunately not everyone who grows old, grows up! The man who says, "I've been pastoring for twenty years!" has no guarantee that he is ministering in a mature manner, because age and experience are no guarantee of maturity. They are only opportunities for maturity.
There are several ways to measure maturity. I want to focus on one: the ability to make distinctions. In his prayer for the Philippians, Paul desired that they "may approve things that are excellent" (Phil. 1:10), or that they "may distinguish the things that differ." A little child thinks all four-footed animals are dogs until he discovers the existence of cats, mice, hamsters, and a multitude of other creatures. The ability to make distinctions that are important is one mark of the mature man. With this in mind I would like to suggest several distinctions that, to me, mark the man who is maturing in the ministry.
Activity or Ministry To begin with, the maturing pastor knows the difference between activity and ministry. He knows that not all activity is ministry - in fact, it might be a detour around real ministry! - and that some ministry requires very little activity but a great deal of intensity. A Sunday bulletin that looks like an airline's timetable does not always indicate that God's people are serving the Lord. It could mean they are living on substitutes. The mature pastor is not against activity, because he knows that Spirit-filled people will be busy serving others; but he does not make activity the sole test of the spiritual level of the church.
Activity can simply mean doing a job and getting it over with; ministry means sharing a life. In I Thessalonians 2:7-8 Paul compared the faithful pastor to a nursing mother who imparts her very life to the children! It may be pressing the illustration too far, but ministry means nursing the children, while activity means mixing a formula and turning the family over to a babysitter! The man who truly ministers is fulfilling a calling to the glory of God, not serving a calendar for the praise of men.
Multiplying activities is not always the way to God's blessing. I know a church that prided itself in its busy schedule; there was something every night of the week. Some of the people asked that the church board make Monday a "family night" so that members could stay home and enjoy their families. The board agreed. Unbelievable as it sounds, a few weeks later the members were asking to have the regular Monday-evening program restored. They explained: "We just sit at home and look at each other and don't know what to do!" What a tragedy that a "busy church" had incapacitated them for the job of building beautiful human relationships at home! After living for years on substitutes, the people did not know the real thing when it came their way.
Every pastor owes it to himself and his church to examine carefully the church program as well as his own schedule. Each committee, organization, activity, and office should be tested. Has some of the temporary scaffolding become part of the permanent structure? Or to change the figure, is a growing body being forced to wear baby clothes? We do not perform surgery on the baby to make him fit the garment; we get new garments! A breath of fresh air would blow through the local church that has the courage to separate activity from ministry.
SEE PART 2
PART 2:
We must face the fact that some pastors actually enjoy endless activity and full schedules. Perhaps it gives them a feeling of accomplishment. Or perhaps (and this may be closer to the truth) it gives them an excuse not to get so close to the people that they have to pay a price to serve the Lord. When a man is "on the run," people with broken hearts do not seek him out. Keeping active on the organizational and denominational treadmill can ease a pastor's conscience as he neglects prayer and meditation and a close confrontation with the needs that his people face. Every man knows the plague of his own heart, so I must not judge; but I cannot help feeling that Heaven has a special reward for that pastor who has had the courage to say with Jeremiah, "Take away her battlements; for they are not the Lord's" (Jer. 5:10)
The maturing pastor also knows the difference between principles and methods. The old couplet puts it perfectly: Methods are many, principles are few; Methods always change, principles never do.
For example, it is a basic principle of the ministry that no man can be saved apart from the Word of God. How you get God's Word to him is quite something else. You may preach to him, hand him a tract, or invite him to your home for a cookout and converse with him in a casual way. Or it is a principle that the local church must pray if God is going to bless. The methods you use to get your people to pray will vary, and what works in rural Iowa may not work in metropolitan Chicago. Some churches thrive on early morning prayer breakfasts; others use prayer cells in the homes. No one method is more inspired than another, and the pastor who marries a method may have to divorce it when he moves to his next pastorate.
The beginning pastor and the immature pastor become intoxicated with methods. Consciously or unconsciously they "imitate the big men" and fall in love with every new idea that is generated. It matters not that Saul's armor does not fit; the immature man will stumble around in it anyway because "this is what everybody is doing these days." Try to convince him that there is really nothing new under the sun, and he will look at you with alarm. Try to convince him that the methods must fit the man, and he will become suspicious of you and your orthodoxy. After all, there is today an orthodoxy of method as well as of doctrine, and sometimes it appears that the former is more important than the latter.
Right methods, and methods that are effective and biblical, are certainly important. A man said to Dwight L. Moody, "Mr. Moody, I don't like your methods."
"Well, I'm always looking for better methods," the evangelist replied. "What methods do you use?"
"I have no methods," the man replied sheepishly.
"Then I'll stick to my own," said Moody.
But we need to remember that methods deal with the how and what of the ministry; principles deal with the why. It is valuable to know what works; but it is also valuable to know why it works. Psalm 103:7 illustrates this truth: "He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel." Israel knew what God was doing; but Moses knew why God was doing it.
A man builds his principles out of his own personal experience with the Word of God. He is careful to test his methods by his principles. When a man ministers according to principle, there is stability to his work; there are roots that will not be shaken by every wind of doctrine. The man who follows God-given principles is not attracted by all the latest fads, nor does he seek the approval of men. "He that doeth the will of God abideth forever."; he that adopts all the latest methods is forgotten as soon as are the methods.
Excerpted from Listen to the Giants by Warrren Wiersbe, pp. 345-348
1 Peter 4
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?
Note: All caps come from the NASB
32+, I have to disagree with most of your comment. We are dealing with those who claim they were called for ministry but treat it as something else...more like a career. And many in the 'audience' are happy to oblige.
What happened at GBC with CT was not a one time deal as you suggest. It is about something deeper that has infested our churches and is leading so many astray from the truth. There is a lack of Holiness and reverence for our Sovereign God. Yes we are fighting evil but must it keep coming from our own ministers, deacons and pulpit committees?
Judgement must begin with us. Time is short.
lin said:
What happened at GBC with CT was not a one time deal as you suggest. It is about something deeper that has infested our churches and is leading so many astray from the truth. There is a lack of Holiness and reverence for our Sovereign God. Yes we are fighting evil but must it keep coming from our own ministers, deacons and pulpit committees?
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Lin, you may be right in all that you wrote (and I agree completely that there is a lack of reverential fear of the Lord today -within the church as well as without the church) but I also know that God is going to hold each of us (and leadership more severely) accountable regarding how we handle this testing of our faith. We definitely need to be bold as a lion in taking a stand for righteousness but we also need to remember to "speak the TRUTH in love," and also remember there is an unsaved world out there, as well as many untaught or baby Christians who are observing our responses to one another. Judgment must begin at the house of the Lord and God judges the inward attitude of the heart as well as the outward actions that displease Him. He says very clearly that the world will know we belong to Him by the love we have for one another. If all they see is us attacking one another, what would be different about us that would draw them to Christ? I am not a compromiser or I would still be at BBC and I've never been accused of being a spiritual wimp, but I do know the temptation is to look for a spiritual scoundrel under every bush because of the pain we have suffered. I choose not to do that.
11+,
Please don't go and get all offended and stomp out...Please read Amos 5 when you get a chance then Lamentations 3.
When you pop in and start preaching to us...telling us how big Jesus is...You are talking to people that already know. If you will read Amos 5, there is a comparison one needs to make between it and BBC today. Just call it what it is. Jesus criticizes those that:
Amos 5:7 O you who turn justice to wormwood
And cast down righteousness to the earth!
There is no justice and no righteousness. The pain you see here is born out of a total lack of either. Everyone will be a lot better off if everyone could get justice...and that ain't happening.
When you read Amos you see Jesus telling us to:
14 Seek good, and not evil,
that you may live;
and so the LORD the God of hosts, will be with you,
as you have said.
15 Hate evil, and love good,
and establish justice in the gate;
it may be that the LORD, the God of hosts,
will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.
He tells us that he despises our worship in the absence of justice and righteousness:
21 "I hate, I despise your feasts,
and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies.
22 Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings,
I will not accept them;
and the peace offerings of your fattened animals,
I will not look upon them.
23Take away from me the noise of your songs;
to the melody of your harps I will not listen.
Then He tells us to:
24But let justice roll down like waters,
and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.
So it is apparent that He requires justice and righteousness over worship...there is little of either to be found...Just ask some here. Lin mentioned judgment...and that is happening.
His judgment because there is no justice or righteousness...Just like Amos 5.
bbc11yrs,
Thank you for your clarity....we agree on most things and the part we don't, I now understand your prospective. It is a very fine line where our differences are and I can respect your position.
The abuse issue is a very tender/fragile area.
From a Biblical prospective concerning sexual sin,allofgrace explained it best and I don't think you are disagreeing with what the scriptures say about sexual sin.
I understand your hope and position.
We don't have to be the same...I say to my daughter on a regular basis that I am glad she doesn't feel or think what I do. I know the position I come from and I wouldn't want my daughter or you or anyone else to be there.
You have dealt with the alchohol addiction and I am glad your dad is recovered.
"We definitely need to be bold as a lion in taking a stand for righteousness but we also need to remember to "speak the TRUTH in love," and also remember there is an unsaved world out there, as well as many untaught or baby Christians who are observing our responses to one another. "
They must be wondering why we are allowing so much immoral and unethical behavior in the Body of Christ. You are right...what exactly distinguishes us from the world? Nothing! In some areas we are worse. (i.e., my child being safe at church) That has been my concern all along.
Truth never sounds like love to those of us who love their sin more than Christ. I am speaking as one who has had truth spoken to me and it hurt and even made me angry for a time. But it SAVED me.
32+,
It may be better to err on the side of caution. If we look at Rev 8:7-12, we see that Satan (Isa 14:12, Rev 9:1) fell to the earth..a star called wormwood. He fell on 1/3 of the rivers and springs turning them to wormwood and many died from drinking…in fact, 1/3 of mankind.
Now, the 1/3rd that he fell on are the false prophets….Zech 13:8,9. (There is a spiritual scoundrel behind 1/3 of them bushes) Now these prophets are serving wormwood contaminated water. Water found in Jer 9:15 and Jer 23:15.
Now we have false prophets dispensing bitter water and people drinking it (Lam 3:15)
Moses encountered the same water in Ex 15:22. The answer then was a tree…a branch…Jesus. ..the WORD is still the answer to contaminated water. We see these false prophets dispensing bitter water in Romans 3:10-15)
And many died. (Rev 8:11) Failure to judge and recognize safe water will kill many more. Not saying you can’t trust your pastor. However, the WORD condemns false prophets (Jer 23), but that didn’t keep people from dying. Jesus appears to be real big on personal responsibility.
I say all this to say:
Prov 5:15Drink water from your own cistern,
flowing water from your own well.
As you say, He is testing…the only safe water is from the well you dig for yourself…in the WORD.
lin said:
They must be wondering why we are allowing so much immoral and unethical behavior in the Body of Christ. You are right...what exactly distinguishes us from the world? Nothing! In some areas we are worse. (i.e., my child being safe at church) That has been my concern all along.
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lin, I so agree with you! We, the church, have embraced the world culture and invited it inside and now we think and act much like the world. See, you and I do agree on something.:-)
May we all please be in prayer for the the families and friends of the victims and the survivors, the multiple injured, the rescue workers, etc. involved in the terrible tragedy that occurred at 6:05pm in Minneapolis, Minnesota, with the collapse of the bridge over the Mississippi River. This is a terrible tragic thing to have happened. Let us just all be in prayer.
Ima
I just saw that too, Ima. It's terrible!!!
Cakes said...
Why is Germantown in such a state and what does it have to do with the situation at Bellevue? I catch glimpses, but I don't think I've gathered a full picture of the context.
A lot is involved, but I'll try to summarize ... hope I state this correctly so as not to offend anyone from GBC who might be reading.
After implementing various changes at GBC (more contemporary music, casual style, no mid-week church service, etc.) the former pastor also proposed to re-structure the church government to include a group of elders, i.e., a small number of men with pretty broad decision-making powers. This is in contrast to the congregationally-governed structure typically followed in Southern Baptist churches.
The issue became pretty heavily debated within the church, especially after the creation of a website devoted to the matter by church members who opposed the elder matter and other changes. These discussions were emotionally charged on both sides, creating quite a rift within the fellowship. The proposed new governmental structure was put to a vote, and the majority of the congregation voted against the changes.
But the division within the church over the matter was great, and it wasn't long before the pastor left, realizing he did not have the support of the majority in the direction he wanted to take the church. With the pastor's departure, a lot of his supporters left to find other churches, as did many staff members.
Along comes SG to BBC, and you know the story there. And as folks started leaving BBC, quite a few gravitated toward GBC as a church that seemed to be heading away from the direction that BBC had been heading under SG's leadership. GBC was especially comfortable to many BBC members because it is another large church, because the interim music minister, JW, was the former music minister at BBC under AR (the same music minister whom SG had unceremoniously replaced), and also because the interim pastor was MS, the president of Mid-America Seminary (who had been quoted in the Commercial Appeal as saying SG should resign over his mishandling of the PW situation). Also, BS, the long-time former (retired) administrative pastor of BBC under AR, has been assisting in a consulting capacity at GBC in the leadership vacuum left by the departure of the pastor and many staff and members.
After MS completed his temporary assignment as GBC’s interim pastor, various men have been selected by BS and the administrative leaders at GBC to fill in as preacher while the search for a new pastor continues. Unfortunately, one of the men selected, CT, left his former church under accusation of mishandling funds and other questions regarding his integrity. When concerns over this man's reputation were raised to BS and other GBC leaders, those concerns were dismissed, and those who expressed them have been accused of being divisive.
And history, it seems, continues to repeat itself. Which raises some questions which I have thought, but hesitated to ask, but I might as well – could it be that the whole concept of mega-churches is inherently flawed? Is it even possible to maintain biblical standards and follow biblical patterns of church worship, ministry, fellowship, discipline, and government in a mega-church? Or does the long-term operation of a church of such size require levels of power, control, and finances that are just too tempting and corrupting? NASS, is this a thread worth discussing?
junk wrote:
"NASS, is this a thread worth discussing?"
A whole thread? Possibly. :-)
Junk,
I vote no for Mega churches. Too much power, big budgets, pastors not being in touch with the people.....servanthood is traded in for dictatorships...humility gone...people look to leaders instead of the Lord.Pastors and music directors have to have $500,000+ houses instead of the old days when they lived in a house by the church.JMO
junk,
you did a great job pulling all that together!
Everyone remember this? It's that list of "America's 50 Most Influential Churches."
Well, it seems it's all a scam! If this weren't so pathetic, it might be funny.
Junk said: "Is it even possible to maintain biblical standards and follow biblical patterns of church worship, ministry, fellowship, discipline, and government in a mega-church? Or does the long-term operation of a church of such size require levels of power, control, and finances that are just too tempting and corrupting?"
I believe these are viable questions. While it seems a few pastors have the ability to "pull it off," I do believe that they are few and far between. It's funny; you would think bigger churches would have more accountability but it seems as if they have less.
Oops!
Commentary.
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