On March 25th we were told that over 1500 people have joined Bellevue in the past year. I have obtained the monthly numbers of decisions for 2006 and the first three months of 2007 that include professions of faith, transfer of membership by letter or statement, and "other," which includes all the other reasons people might come forward during an invitation without joining the church. While that 1500+ total for last year is correct, are this year's numbers showing the same trend?
Comparing the first three months of this year to last year we have these numbers -- the total of all decisions for each month:
January 2006 - 174 (POF-52, Letter-80, Statement-27, Other-15)
January 2007 - 67 (POF-26, Letter-22, Statement-16, Other-3)
February 2006 - 126 (POF-43, Letter-44, Statement-28, Other-11)
February 2007 - 80 (POF-32, Letter-18, Statement-18, Other-12)
March 2006 - 104 (POF-43, Letter-34, Statement-20, Other-11)
March 2007 - 29 (POF-11, Letter-9, Statement-6, Other-3)
Every decision for Christ is cause for celebration, and we should in no way minimize any decision based upon total numbers. Numbers can sometimes be one factor in measuring the health of a church. Often they're not, but the leadership of BBC seems to like to use numbers to make the point that all is well at Bellevue. So what can we conclude from the numbers given above?
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651 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 651 Newer› Newest»Mom4, thanks for letting me know about Peggy. I always thought Mr. Garland was so cool after the incident with the crazy guy. I guess he really wasn't punched, but that memory is over 25 years old! :) I used to LOVE when Mr. Garland would sing "Battle Hymn of the Republic". I miss him and Tommy Lane so much! Elmer Bailey too!
karen
There could be a clue as to what is going on at Bellevue in this.
"Myths perpetuated by the fundamentalist leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention have forever changed the face of the denomination. The myths have been the source of the greatest period of continued controversy the denomination has ever known. History may record that many of the myths brought the downfall of a once great Christian denomination. The controversies resulting from perpetuated myths have affected virtually every facet of denominational life. Mistrust abounds everywhere. Good and godly people have been thrown to the lions. Careers have been ruined. Missionaries have been put in jeopardy. The seminaries have been dumbed down. The controversies have made enemies out of friends. They have divided state conventions. They have raised up a generation of people who deal more in hate than love. And all because of some well spun and strategically placed political myths."
-- June 9, 2002
(This article was written for BaptistLife.Com Discussion Forums)
"Another myth handed to us by the strong fundamentalists is one concerning the election of presidents. The fundamentalists believed and perpetuated the myth that SBC presidents elected prior to 1979 were done so by political power brokers in private. They claim that SBC presidents did not adequately represent the fundamentalists. The claim insisted that powerbrokers made decisions about who should be presented in nomination before the conventions. The myth claims that the denominational power brokers prior to 1979 were "kingmakers." They sought to bring a halt to the activities of the so-called "kingmakers," who, as they viewed the situation, failed to present candidates who represented the fundamentalists. Never mind that Herschel Hobbs, R. G. Lee, K Owen White and W. A. Criswell all served terms as SBC president prior to 1979"
Is it just me or did anyone else feel shock when they heard Mark Dougharty say that in September of 2005 he felt God had released him from serving at Bellevue any longer?
If this is true, has he been living outside the will of God for the past 20 months?
As recently as last month, MD said he had no plans on leaving Bellevue and he was excited about being involved in some new areas of ministry at Bellevue.
Pardon me for being confused but I'm confused.
http://www.baptistlife.com/flick/Kingmaker%20Myth.htm
An interesting article to understand a little of the SBC problems from a conservative, non-fundamentalist slant
Watching: Hershel Hobbs has done commentary for SBC literature and SS lessons for ages. I would hope his writings and the Baptist Faith and Message would correlate!
I believe Mr. Hobbs has passed away now but my SS teachers still use his commentaries.
Watching: What "myths" are they referring to, specifically?
Nathan, Nathan, Nathan,
Don't you know that it is NOT Biblical to look past the smoke and mirrors provided by the SG administration?
I'm sure that philosophy is in the Bible. I think it's in the new chapter at the very end that SG has written, entitled, " Do not watch what I do, watch what I say"
Nathan: seems like a bit of "forked-tongue-itis" going on.
I wondered the same thing...."who's will have you been in, MD?"
concernedSBCer said...
Watching: What "myths" are they referring to, specifically?
read the article I refered to at 2:11. It is a slanted article but makes some good points.
Nathan,
part of the thinking process I had last night when I posted about GOD speaking to him.
The blind miss these things why?....because they are blind...
just how SG likes it.
Okay, I am going to try to control myself. I was there. My family was there. There are witnesses. There are TWO MINISTERS who were there and witnessed the actions of this man and turned him into Biblical Guidance.
Gopher said:
This man is not a loose cannon and would not behave in the manner spoken of.
Gopher, If you know him, I am sorry. HE DID do this! Ask the two ministers that witnessed it! David Coombs and Ralph Anderson both said he did it, but said the child cussed at him first! That was later proven a lie; the child NEVER cussed anyone! According to the witness statements in the Biblical Guidance office, all statements confirm the childs side of the story. Also, the staff said the man said he apologized for his actions; which he did not! BESIDES, that is irrelevant....HE HANDCUFFED A CHILD and would not go get her mother! Is this what a Godly man does? What kind of man cusses and handcuffs a 15 year old child, pulled from worship?
Gopher said:
Also, why would someone confront the pastor in a public place??
Gopher, How else will the common person get to speak to him? It was a casual conversation, very friendly, mutual , then it was ''Oh, by the way; do you see that girl....''. It was not an attack. Their kids were friends and it was a friendly meeting.
Gopher said:
There are so many misbehaving children of all ages whose parents won’t control them and are turned loose in Bellevue's hallways. When security has to intervene, the security people are then demonized.
Gopher, We work with the youth and in the nursery. I don't know where all these demons are. Yes, there are situations that arise, but they are dealt with. But it is not as bad as you make it out to be that we have to start treating all the kids with a harsh hand, as criminals. Do you want us to put up metal detectors and carry guns? Bellevue's halls are safe. You make it sound too scary to come to church. Are we not safe? That is security's job. They need more training then. They need to know the difference between demons running the halls and children worshipping in the sancuary.
Gopher said:
Has anyone ever talked with security and heard what they are up against every day? The events that take place within the walls of our church are terrible and the security should be supported and not attacked.
Gopher, Yes, we have. Have friends that are security. It is there job. If they can't handle it, they need to move on. If they can't handle security inside a church, then they need a new profession. They are supported, when they act appropriately!
Gopher said:
Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of what the pastor and administration have done over the last 2 years but even they deserve to eat in peace in public.
Gopher, shouldn't a child deserve to worship in a service in peace?
Gopher said:
Try taking some time and find out what the security have to deal with from the youth in the church and maybe you will come away with a different perspective.
Gopher, We do and have. That is why there is a Parent Assist Team. They do a great job. Don't try to make the youth out to be horrible to protect you brutal friend.
Gopher said:
If the parents would keep an eye on their own children then security and staff wouldn't have to become involved.
Gopher, if you had a clue what you were saying, this conversation wouldn't be happening! If parents had to do that, then there would be no jobs for security and ministers; now would there? THEY WERE SITTING IN THE WORSHIP SERVICE, mom was a few rows down. She didn't realize her child would be in danger in the sancuary!
Gopher, I like your name, it suits you.
Karen,
Yes, we would like the name of the security guard. We have been trying to get it. Thanks.
SOTL said:
SOTL says:
I have a freind whose 8 y/o son was going to have surgery. They went to Chili's after church and the child spotted Mr. and Mrs. Rogers. He ran over to him and hugged him and told him that he was having surgery the following day.
My friend, embarassed, apologized for the intrusion, but Dr. Rogers asked her if what he was told was true. Responding in the affirmative, Dr. Rogers and Mrs. Rogers held hands with my friend and her entire family and in the middle of CHILI's prayed for that child.
Now THAT is a man with a pastor's heart.
And now I think I will go and cry a while.
sorry SOTL; Dr. Rodgers was a man of integrity; you have mistaken Steve for one. He obviously doesn't care about the hurting children. He was pointed one out and told that she was scared to come back to church because of the abuse she received from one of his employees and all he did was turned his back and left.
I witnessed it.
socwork said:
Given the fact that SG won't meet privately with members to discuss issues, (evidently Matthew 18 doesn't apply to pastors) public conversations seem to me to be the only feasible option.
That is EXACTLY why that conversation took place. It was about the children first, very friendly and mutual; never ugly. He was never treated ugly or poorly. It was a matter of fact that the girl was there.
Funny how God works!
onlyamember,
Email me
Karen
Karen,
You have mail.
You know, I have been thinking. Both DC and SG said that we are a hospital for the hurting. They are both ministers. REGARDLESS of what did or did not happen.....isn't it both of their jobs to minister to the hurting?
This child is hurting!
Both these men have been told that this week and neither men have contacted this family!
Steve said he was out of town when it happened...okay, he is back now, he has been told it has not been handled, he has had her pointed out to him in a very empty eatery with noone around. Why hasn't he even prayed with this child?
If they can set up counseling for those who are affected by PW, why can't they just reach out to one traumatized, abused child?
Didn't Christ die for the lost, the hurting, the children? Are we a church ministering to those in need or are we trying to be a Country Club?
oam
they have to follow the counsel of their laywers who guide them.
...as opposed to the scripture that SHOULD guide them......
OAM, I got your email and sent you one back.
I described what is happened at BBC as "voodoo". How else can you explain life long friends and fellow church members being totally unrecognizable to us anymore? I've heard and seen and experienced some of the poorest behaviors I've ever seen since Steve Gaines got here. I want to know: Has Steve changed these people so much or has this behavior been there just under the surface waiting for the opportunity to explode?
karen
OAM said, They are both ministers"
SG & DC are NOT ministers. They are NOT pastors. They are money hungry control freaks. SG is pretending to be a minister/pastor to feed his ego & bank account.
DC is layman who Steve pulled in off the street to watch his back & do damage control. If you will read the propagada know as The Messenger, they outline David's service over the years. His wife has a better service record! His service would qualify him for choir not a fulltime ministry position with. He said that he feels "called" to Bellevue.
I wonder if he shouldn't feel called to the gospel ministry & go where God would lead without all the attention and large salary.
Would he have felt called if Stevie the dictator wouldn't have called him? God knows.
I know this is harsh but I have a problem with pulling people off the street & ordaining them without them proving themselves. That takes time to prove yourself & the Bible instructs us not to "lay hands quickly" on someone.
Karen said: "Has Steve changed these people so much or has this behavior been there just under the surface waiting for the opportunity to explode?"
I just don't believe that SG carries that much influence. SG is not controling, control is spinning out of hand.
Watchinghisstory said,
An interesting article to understand a little of the SBC problems from a conservative, non-fundamentalist slant .
I have read this article and if you believe one word of this propaganda, there is no wonder some churches are like they are now. There wasn't nothing conservative about that. That has been the liberal arguement for years. "Oh it was all made up" "the seminaries don't have liberal professers" Yea, right. They taught that the virgin birth was a myth. The Bible isn't infallable. Plus a bunch of other herecies. God raised up godly men in God's time to take back what satan had watered down with liberal, wishy washy "preachers & professors" who denied the very basic articles of the faith.
This article is very very slanted.
Preacherdude 777 said:
"SG & DC are NOT ministers. They are NOT pastors. They are money hungry control freaks. SG is pretending to be a minister/pastor to feed his ego & bank account."
He also said that "God raised up godly men in God's time to take back what satan had watered down with liberal, wishy washy "preachers & professors" who denied the very basic articles of the faith."
Steve Gaines is one of thoes Godly men you speak about involved in the 2000 BFM.
Is SG a Godly money hungry control freak? Can you have it both ways?
I'm inclined to believe that there are many fundamentalist SBC pastors who are money hungry control freaks. Your sudden erupted passion hints at the fact that you are probally blind to what is really happening in the SBC.
onlyamember,
Thanks for posting the 15 yo girl's myspace post. It gives insight into just how the general membership is being treated, not that we all have experienced that type of traumatic event, but it does portray the mindset of the leadership perfectly.
If anyone else thinks they have any rights left at BBC, they are sadly mistaken. Just because you have not been accosted or demeaned or "marked" yet does not mean it is not possible, for as soon as SG or his cronies deem you no longer an assett, you are subject to the same treatment.
I am not a litigious person, but this girl's parents could be doing a great disservice to her and any other poor soul that will be subject to the same treatment if they do not file charges or a lawsuit, unless the Lord leads them otherwise. I would not back down for any reason unless the Lord prompted me to do so. From the sounds of the young lady's post, she has been traumatized and is a walking bowl of painful emotion. This will most definitely raise it's ugly head in the future. She needs closure and the ability to forgive which would come more easily to her if the leadership, especially David Coombs, Steve Gaines, Ralph Anderson, Mark Bowman, and the unnamed security guard would personally acknowledge their sin and apologize, asking for forgiveness (no "if's and's or but's about it)!!
This is ungodly behavior no matter WHAT the girl had done in the past!
Preacherdude: I thought that article was slanted as well. All I have to do is look at the pastors that have been turned out over the last 30 years from seminaries to prove to myself that liberal, non-scriptural ideas were taught. There are a few conservatives out there, but many liberal ideas have crept in.
Mom4: Well said. There was no call for what happened. I am praying for her; the betrayal she has to feel could scar her always. We are supposed to be helping fellow believers grow, not turn them away.
I read the article in question regarding the SBC. Slanted without doubt. To say it was all a myth is not accurate...there were indeed controversies in the seminaries concerning the infallibility of the scriptures..that's a pretty well known fact. What I can agree with is the political nature of the SBC..while the conservative resurgence, or "fundamentalist insurgence", if you take that tack, was a good thing in some regards, the "kingmakers" are still alive and well..they are merely kingmakers of a different stripe. I think looking over the SBC landscape will quickly prove that to be true. Just now some leaders in the SBC are beginning to speak up to some degree concerning the "superstar" pastors the denomination has created...add to that the bloated numbers the churches within the convention report every year...BBC for example...30,000 members?...get real..you'll have to redefine "member" to validate those numbers...and you have the makings of pure politics. Frankly, I'm considering abandoning the SBC alltogether. Whatever they "saved" in the conservative resurgence, it isn't anything that I can see worth holding on to. The only thing that I can see that's changed is political parties...otherwise, business as usual. jmo
Wow! That was hard to read, because it seems so unreal. How can this possible be happening? I know that God is in control, but what is He preparing this young lady and her family for? I will pray for her every time I see the crosses on the BBC campus.
A book that might be helpful to her whole family is "Recovering from Churches that Abuse" by Ronald Enroth.
onlyamember....15 year old's parents...
PLEASE get this to the media.
The admin. will stop at nothing!
No one will expose their lies,and bullying
If you are not protecting a ministry that BBC has threatened to pull the funding on,
if you are not depending on this godless place to pay your mortgage..
PLEASE expose this evil.
bet DC or his rep call and offer some silence money....plenty of that!
Only,
I sit here with profound sadness for your young friend.
Please tell her that I am praying for her.
"That is the real story, no lies, not stretching the truth. If you hear something about that please come to ME and ask ME if it's true instead of believing it and telling other people what you heard. That it how rumors get started."
While everyone else's name is made public, we don't hear the name of the accused or accuser (Me), or why the accuser was banned from the campus.
And why was she not with her parents, as the requirement for her attendance and why don't we hear comments or actions from the parents?
WHY IS ANYONE SHOCKED!!!!
Steve Gaines and David Coombs and all that follow them covered for and minimized a CRIME of sexual abuse by a STAFF predator.
It was labeled an INCIDENT.
NOT a CRIME
The victim who grew up in this church has been reinjured,ignored, and revictimized by this godless bunch.
The women that were preyed upon by this deviant were just a hiccup in the report.
Never mind the damage to anyone
PROTECT STEVE GAINES AND THE POWER BROKERS AT ALL COST
They do not protect what is holy
They do not protect the vulnerable,the weak,or the lost
They do not protect GOD"S KINGDOM
they protect their own kingdom.
...who will you bully and blackmail next.....you corrupt bunch of bullies!
gopher,
I am not sure who you are calling yourself but nothing justifies what was done to the 15 year old member of BBC.
She could be a druggie or a drunk or be covered in tatoos or whatever standards BBC now uses to define who is approved or not approved to attend BBC....
you still do not treat people....children like that.
Good thing you didn't touch my child.
Karen said:
"Has Steve changed these people so much or has this behavior been there just under the surface waiting for the opportunity to explode?"
under the surface...
has to be....
when a loaf of bread has mold on the end,you can cut it off and the rest is good...
when you leave it there,
the mold spreads to the whole loaf and ruins the whole thing
BBC was molded and ready for a Steve Gaines.
"BBC was molded and ready for a Steve Gaines"
profound
gopher said, "...we don't hear the name of the accused or accuser (Me) ..."
Did I read this right? Are YOU the accuser? The security guard who couldn't control his mouth?
If this is so, I am speechless!
gopher, your profile is missing.
concernedsbcer
What liberal seminary is responsible for the mess at Bellevue?
Watching: The article was written as a general statement about the SBC; so was my post.
tn_lizzie2000 said...
Did I read this right? Are YOU the accuser? The security guard who couldn't control his mouth?
Neither, I was referring to the accuser as she only referred to herself as "Me" in herspace post.
At 6:00pm gopher said,
While everyone else's name is made public, we don't hear the name of the accused or accuser (Me), or why the accuser was banned from the campus.
And why was she not with her parents, as the requirement for her attendance and why don't we hear comments or actions from the parents?
I say:
Gopher, THANK you for clarifying that you are not the security guard! However, I think of the girl as the "accused" and there are quite a few BBC staff named among the "accusers."
This girl was NOT banned from BBC. Therefore, she was not required to be sitting with her Mommy.
If you will go back and re-read her post and look for "comments or actions from the parents," you will discover her name. Go slow...
Gopher,
Let's remember the 15 year old is a minor. Her named does not need to be public. Most everyone already knows who this poor child is. She certainly doesn't need anymore embarrassment.
onlyamember, Should I delete my post?
So I take it the girl was in the balcony and her mom was downstairs?
WatchingHISstory said...
What liberal seminary is responsible for the mess at Bellevue?
I say...
This question makes no sense to me. You'd have to be more specific than "mess" to determine if and where the problem person or ideology could be connected to any seminary.
I do know there is a pretty good seminary not too far from BBC. I wonder if SG could learn anything from them?
inmemphis,
Yes, the girl was in the balcony, and her mom was on the first floor.
Onlyamember.....
Reading the description that the girl posted has infuriated me. Right now I am so steamed at how she and her family was treated I could spit nails! Here is what I see Bellevue goons did wrong:
1. False Arrest
2. Harassment
3. Attempted Assault
They should get Johnny Cochcran and rake Gaines and the rest of the moonbats over the coals for this disgrace. I would also contact Andy Wise and make this as public as you can. This cannot continue to fly under the radar. The truth must be known to the general public!!!
Andy Wise.....
very good idea.
I don't know if Andy Wise is a member of BBC or not, but I always see him at the special events, like SCT, PP, and Celebrate America.
Andy Wise was just the first name to pop into my head.
I got a better idea....how about that lady from Channel 24/30 thats hounding drivers? I'd love to see her go after the moonbats!
gmommy,
Mold is insidious. What is visible to the naked eye is only the worst of the contamination. The rest of the bread is also contaminated by the time you see the visible mold. Like a loaf of bread, BBC was not molded already, just a few slices were insidiously hidden and when the conditions were favorable, the invisible contamination grew to be visible and thus exposed to the naked eye. Now the invisible spores have spread to contaminate those slices that are suseptible to become engulfed in the deadly fungus and it is only a matter of time until the entire loaf in engulfed.
I am glad I saw the light early and separated myself from it.
gmommylv, (amos not silent)
I took a break from my monk-related duties(remember?) to pop in an say Hi.
Hope all is well with you and the rest of the truth seekers.
Amos
Gopher,
The audacity of YOU suggesting that a CHILD, who, by the way, is the VICTIM in this, should be outted is BEYOND the pale!!!
THIS is the problem at BBC..just pure HATE from top down. No one has any caring or compassion any more.
All YOU and YOUR ungodly leadership cares about is power. You are blinded by it. So blinded that in order to " get even" with the victim, who happens to be a child, you would want her outted so that she could suffer the maximum amount possible!!!
You and your kind make me sick. Your leadership makes me sick.
I'm going to stop here becuase what i am thinking about you, i can't print.
gopher,
STAY AWAY FROM MY CHILDREN. I won't be as nice as the parents of the 15 y/o child.
SOTL,
AMEN and AMEN!
There are many hurting people that have been forced out of their church home by those of the same mentality of the gopher..I have a lot of trouble with pushing someone out of a place where God has called them. The contrast between the present BBC leadership and the truth seeking membership is that God has placed the membership and man has called the leadership - they are scratching each other's backs while shooting the already wounded and then gloating over the remains.
We had a God-called pastorate with Dr and Mrs Rogers. Now we have a worldly man and wife who have dug themselves in for money and power and those that placed them there are just as accountable as they are for the demise of BBC.
watching,
Just catching up...
As the chairman of the committee responsible for the 1963 version of the Baptist Faith & Message (BF&M), Herschel Hobbs was one of the primary authors of that version. Steve Gaines' dissertation was written to demonstrate the similarities of thought and writing in Hobbs' sermons and the BF&M.
Is the security man who cursed at the young lady Andrew Cagellan?
This incident needs to be brought before the church at the May/June business meeting.
We always have a business meeting called to vote on the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention.
Let's be ready to bring the motion up at that next meeting. If it's like years past, they will not announce the meeting. They will very quickly call the church into order and have a short meeting that lasts not more than 4-5 minutes.
This is unbelievable.
The man who spoke this profanity needs to be banned from Bellevue or be arrested for trespassing. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
At 9:43 PM, April 23, 2007
Lynn said...
They should get Johnny Cochcran and rake Gaines and the rest of the moonbats over the coals for this disgrace.
Now that would be a good trick!!
Who are these men who wear guns inside our church?
If they don't have more sense than that, how can we feel safe?
If a man can't control his anger with a young lady of 15, I don't want him wearing a gun around me.
Is this insane or is it me?
Am I missing something?
Junk: especially since Johnny Cochran is no longer with us.
nathan,
Sounds like Barney Fife to me.
Citizen's Arrest......Citizen's Arrest.......oh wait....that's Gomer....
Barney...silver bullet in his pocket.....
mom4,
Thanks for fleshing that out for me. I am terrible with pictures like that and can never get all the details.
I tend to be a bottom line person. Black and white. I wanted to work towards some "grey" until I watched my church turn into the mafia...
The part I understand....the rotten has taken over.
onlyamember said...
Everyone needs to read this.
Current mood: Defeated
Category: Defeated Life
4:15 PM, April 23, 2007
Does this strike anyone but me,that this child could be in a state of desperation.
If these are her words, "Defeated" and "Defeated Life" this could be a serious red flag that this child could be suicidal.
Please, anyone that knows this child needs to see that she gets some counseling soon. Some people have expressed how well this child is handling this entire situation at Bellevue. If this is her emotional state, "Defeated" and "Defeated Life" this certainly does not sound like someone handling this situation well at all.
All of you so called men of God and defenders of these men that abused this child need to take a very serious look at this situation and make amends to her immediately.
David Coombs, Steve Gaines, Donna Gaines, how will you feel if you end up with the blood of this child on your hands because you failed to counsel, minister and show compassion and concern for her and how she was treated at Bellevue Baptist Church.
Are any of you Christians? You certainly are not showing the fruit of a believer!
Concerned,
You are absolutely right.
Sometimes that cycle starts over again.
Just as you think things can't get any worse at BBC, something else rears it's ugly head.
Amos!!!
How do you always show up at the right times??!
Thank you for taking a break from your "quiet life as a monk!!"
It's getting too overwhelming again....
BBC has gone from bullying to blackmailing.
I hope all is well in your neck of the woods! I miss you!
onlyamember said...
Oh, and another thing....
Steve Gaines was approached tonight at a local eatery and was told about the child being cussed and handcuffed (just so he would know). The girl happened to be there at the time with her family. She was then pointed out to them (Donna was there). Steve said he was out of town and didn't know much about it and that David told him he took care of it. Steve was then explained David's version of 'taking care of it' and Steve was told how horrified the child was when she saw the security guard still there. Steve was also told that the child is scared to go back and upset that nothing was done. Steve was also explained that the family feels that no concern was shown to them and that the girl was very upset by it. Donna walked off. Steve got up to leave. Never once did they look towards the family nor did they attempt to go greet the family, apologize or even pray with the family. Steve said he would make sure David knew the security guard was there. He was explained to that David had been calle and told that already and that he didnt care because the man was a member of Bellevue and his wife sang in the choir. Steve walked off without another glance or goodbye.
This is probably the end for my family. I absolutely could not believe that Steve could be so cold and heartless. I don't care who he is, if I knew a child had been so hurt and traumatized at my church and someone approached me about it.....I would have been there in a second to apologize for my fellow member and would have at least prayed with them and offered to give them the name of a Biblical Guidance staffer. I am so ashamed of my Pastor and Assistant Pastor.
10:52 PM, April 22, 2007
Donna was the first to walk off!! How's that for Christian compassion.
onlyamember said...
All I know is something needs to be done. I am sure Steve wanted to check his facts and get where he was protected by his staff and not have to handle it..But there was a child involved. A hurting child. She should have at the VERY least been prayed with, but Donna was the first to walk off.
Who are we ministering to now?
11:03 PM, April 22, 2007
BTW Folks, I was just throwing out Cochran's name for reference. I'd use Cory B. Trotz's but I know of a couple of Bellevue members who work for him who is on the other side of this debate.
Why would security go into the sanctuary and go after someone who was minding their own business? This situation does not make a lot of sense.
Someone wanted to know what church Andy Wise attended and I believe that would be Hope Presbyterian.
Memphis: That's one of the points. INsecurity.
in memphis asked:
Why would security go into the sanctuary and go after someone who was minding their own business? This situation does not make a lot of sense.
SOTL says:
I think that several grown men were bored. They had no internet access at church. They are cowards so they picked on a defenseless young lady. They are a gang of brutes, looking for someone to rough up, and unfortunately, this young lady was it.
Who's next? A 90 y/o woman? naw, that woudln't give them the " "rush" they need. Tennage girls are so much better for that.
Is it possible that another law was broken? I'm not a legal expert but it appears that a wrongful arrest happened.
This is a serious violation of this young lady and it should be dealt with churchwide.
This stuff is starting to scare me.
InMemphis,
This is part of the story, much more around this date & time and also more 4/22 & 4/23 from onlyamember..the child was reportedly doing nothing wrong when she was pulled out of worship CUSSED AND HANDCUFFED, just thought to have been banned from the church?? Yet we keep on staff to roam the halls of BBC, our own pedophile minister that raped his own son over a 12-18 month period and even gave him a raise during the 6 mo that Steve Gaines kept him on staff after his complete confession to Steve Gaines..oh, King Steve told him not to worry about his job, he would always have it..BUT A 15 YR OLD GIRL????!!!!
onlyamember said...
all of grace,
concerned,
It hasn't escaped me...I'm shocked to say the least. Does anyone know the story of why this girl was considered to be "trespassing" in the first place?
Not that is changes anything...BUT....she was hanging around the wrong crowd last year. This crowd did have some issues with security. This child has NEVER done anything illegal or bad at church, but some of the kids in that crowd did; so she was guilty by association. She got tired of being harassed and would be a smart mouth to security. One of the kids did get banned from the church after a security guard hit him in the head with a walkie, a family member threatened the security guard; and they were banned from the church. THIS CHILD has been gone. She does not hang with that crowd any more. Greg and Phil both knew she was back and welcomed their family.
She was never banned; just asked to stay with her parents when she was at church, which was several months ago.
10:56 PM, March 13, 2007
Now just calm down "sickofthelies" .
All I did was ask questions, just like we want answers from those at Bellevue and I get dirt in my face. I guess I'll have to dig deeper to get the answers as there are still some inconsistencies that I would like to know the answers to.
I forgot to mention.
There are a lot of locked doors at Bellevue. What if this young lady had been taken into interrogation with no witnesses?
Running into the bathroom was the wisest actions this young lady could have taken.
I applaud her for her actions.
Nathan,
I watched the history channels' special on Jim JOnes the other night. The leadership at BBC has many similiarities as the brutes in Jonestown. Matter of fact, many of the members at BBC have decided to stick their brains in their pockets and allow SG and his band of thugs to do their thinking for them, just like the people in Jonestown.
It is eerie.
sheepless,
If we are guilty by association, where does that leave the folks who hang out with Steve Gaines these days?
Steve Gaines broke the law by trespassing and hiding a pedophile so does that make his friends bad for hanging out with him?
gopher,
If you are serious about gathering more information check around the date of 3/13, 4/22, 4/23, any post around "onlyamember"
I am aware Phil Newberry and Steve Gaines were in Colorodo at the time of the incident but was Gregg Hauss or Jason Pyron there that night?
Nathanb,
There's a saying, "What one does, one becomes"
Also, "if you waller with the pigs, you're gonna get dirty"
I think the entire lot of security guards that night are PERVERTS!!!\
Parents would do well to keep their kids away from them, especially their young girls.
nathanb said...
There are a lot of locked doors at Bellevue.
The doors are NOT locked from the inside. If they are locked, it is only if you are trying to get in, and they would not be locked on a service night except the Grace building or PreSchool building. There are NO chains on the doors either.
Does anyone remember if Steve Gaines sang "There's a Sweet Spirit in This Place" that Sunday evening?
I wish I knew because it would be further evidence there is a fraud being perpetrated on the congregation.
Nathan,
I would not want my children to hang out with lawbreakers.
mom4 said:
I am not a litigious person, but this girl's parents could be doing a great disservice to her and any other poor soul that will be subject to the same treatment if they do not file charges or a lawsuit, unless the Lord leads them otherwise. I would not back down for any reason unless the Lord prompted me to do so. From the sounds of the young lady's post, she has been traumatized and is a walking bowl of painful emotion. This will most definitely raise it's ugly head in the future. She needs closure and the ability to forgive which would come more easily to her if the leadership, especially David Coombs, Steve Gaines, Ralph Anderson, Mark Bowman, and the unnamed security guard would personally acknowledge their sin and apologize, asking for forgiveness (no "if's and's or but's about it)!!
mom4, I agree with you and I am all with you. This family did seek the Word, they stayed in their Bible's the first few weeks and they were approached by a reporter; but they DID feel led from the Lord to not go after Bellevue legally. I can't say that I agree with them and they know how I feel; but they have to live with it.
They have since said that if the media or legal community find out about it, so be it. They were not going to pursue it, but they will answer questions.
This is a great family and they are trying to do what is right. Their child has been traumatized and they are trying to do the right thing.
David Coombs and Steve Gaines were both told the same thing that you said earlier (needing closure, justice, apology, help, etc...) Neither men seemed willing to give it to her. Steve Gaines was a few feet away and he couldn't get to his car fast enough. This won't come up again, they have already disregarded it.
Gopher sure does know a lot about how doors are locked and when they are locked at BBC.
gofer,
Do you attend Bellevue?
Try opening any classroom door on just about any floor on a Sunday night. I'd say 90% of them are locked and dark. If you ask me, it's creepy in some of the areas of the church these days not knowing what's going on at Bellevue.
only a member said:
Steve Gaines was a few feet away and he couldn't get to his car fast enough.
SOTL says:
Of course not, they are both sociopaths.
gmommylv said:
onlyamember....15 year old's parents...
PLEASE get this to the media.
gmommylv, this family does not feel led to do this at this time. They want to, they want Bellevue to address this and give their child justice, but that just isn't going to happen. If someone else get's this into the media, there is nothing they can do about it; it wouldn't be on them!
Security at BBC these days = perverts
Mike Fleming needs to know about this.
MIKE@600WREC.com
ONLYAMEMBER, OUT THE SECURITY GUARDS!!!
SWEET sweet spirit being sung in the worship center, while this little girl is being cussed out and handcuffed by security perverts.
Yeah, that's some real sweet spirit all right.
nathanb said...
locked and dark. If you ask me, it's creepy in some of the areas of the church these days not knowing what's going on at Bellevue.
And this is supposed to be our safe house, our place of refuge from the world. Gaines and his crew have certainly gotten their desires, the world has come to us.
Does anyone know how many people are on the official "do not enter into the Gates of Bellevue" list?
Who keeps this list? I've heard there was a list for at least a year now but never believed it until now. I heard the cameras scan the audience seat by seat looking for anyone on the posted list. I guess the story of this young lady confirms the story of scanning the crowd with the cameras looking for "unfriendlies".
Perhaps a camera will be invented that could identify fence jumpers and pedophile protectors.
sheepless,
Gaines has ushered the world in on a red carpet.
nathanb,
Perhaps it could put a big red dot on their forehead, like a laser beam. Maybe even do a partial lobotomy while it's there.
Donna probly looks over the list daily and at the photos of the
'unfriendlies' to see if any of them were in her dreams the night before.
The Antichrist should put BBC on his list to visit right off the bat. SG has prepared his flock to
usher in the antichrist. No doubt they will give him a standing ovation, if they haven't already.
SOTL,
Yeah and he's ushered out some of our best ministers and members on the same red carpet. He must be proud!
Maybe we should adopt our own theme song, "When the saints go marching OUT"
What liberal seminary is responsible for the mess at Bellevue?
just find out where SG went, and then you will know.
So I guess you could say she was held against her will?
Ok, i'm off to bed..
Onlyamember, go git him. What an ignoramus gopher is.
I can not urge the parents of this 15 yr old girl strongly enough: GET YOUR DAUGHTER OUT! She needs to be in counseling!!
Reading her post is a huge red flag!!
Her spiritual health is in desperate need of healing. The rage that is building is understandable, but can be used by the enemy to disalusion her to what a healthly relationship with God and her fellow brothers and sisters in Christ can be like.
This could totally send her away from the Lord.
inmemphis said:
So I take it the girl was in the balcony and her mom was downstairs?
Yes, the child was sitting in the balcony with other youth actually paying attention to the service and her parents were down on the main floor with youth leadership; all where they belong and where they normally sit.
I didn't realize we had assigned seats.
She was exactly where she was supposed to be.
But yall are missing the point.....SHE WAS TAKING NOTES IN A WORSHIP SERVICE....what else do you want this child to do? Isn't that what you want your child to do....actually pay attention and take notes when they are not with you? I sure hope mine are.
He graduated from Southwestern......Dallas has long been thought to be teaching a liberal ideal......
Only,
Which restaurant was this and was Donna & Steve alone. Were you the person that approached them about this incident or was this second hand information? Just curious.
lynn said: 1. False Arrest
2. Harassment
3. Attempted Assault
They should get Johnny Cochcran and rake Gaines and the rest of the moonbats over the coals for this disgrace. I would also contact Andy Wise and make this as public as you can. This cannot continue to fly under the radar. The truth must be known to the general public!!!
I agree with you; but this family thought they were doing the right thing. Of course this was when they thought the abusive, foul-mouthed (oh, don't let me forget DC word's Godly man) was being rotated off. They really prayed over this and felt God leading them to let Bellevue do the right thing. They now know that Bellevue will not.
I guess if the anyone contacted them, they would answer the questions.
nathanb said: Is the security man who cursed at the young lady Andrew Cagellan?
This incident needs to be brought before the church at the May/June business meeting.
I don't know, is it? We wouldn't be so lucky as to have his name. We would like to know who it is, tho.
Are you kidding? Business meeting, there is no way they will allow this to come forward. If you can get it done; more power to you.
The only reason the question about the name came up, was that all these other names were posted in a public domain on a Myspace page so it doesn't seem like this was to be kept private. The question has been... what was done montha ago to be on the banned list ? Shouldn't it be knowh what is expected of the young people at Bellevue and what is considered bad enough to ban someone?
sheepless said: If these are her words, "Defeated" and "Defeated Life" this could be a serious red flag that this child could be suicidal.
Please, anyone that knows this child needs to see that she gets some counseling soon. Some people have expressed how well this child is handling this entire situation at Bellevue. If this is her emotional state, "Defeated" and "Defeated Life" this certainly does not sound like someone handling this situation well at all.
I do not believe she is suicidal; but she is depressed. She is definately more cautious and less trusting. I do believe she is scared for life and I am afraid this may keep her out of church as a young adult; but I am not afraid she is suicidal. Even tho the staff is not worried or care about her (except for JF), her friends and family are; we are with her and love her and are helping her. Let the staff continue to run off our long serving ministers!
WE WERE THERE!
Please excuse this long writing, as I have spent hours, no, days reading about the last year of our beloved Bellevue. This is my first input to this thread but I have been no stranger to many posts, blogs, audio clips, news articles, etc., since I heard of the troubles at BBC two months ago. For a blog most of the input has been most honorable and respectful. My wife and I were members of BBC from 1980 to 1995 when we moved back to Nashville. I remember the first sermon I heard by Dr. Rogers in early 1980 on TV while we were trying to decide on a church home. I had told my wife I would not drive 12 miles to church like we had been doing before moving to Memphis, but the Lord has a since of humor. After hearing Dr. Rogers we could not wait to find BBC and guess what? It was exactly 12 miles from our new home to BBC down town Memphis. We joined a Sunday school that had only 10 or 12 people attending each Sunday and shortly afterward we got a new teacher who was attending Mid America Seminary. In a few short months we had outgrown our SS class and moved to a larger room to better hold over 100 now attending. When it did not stop growing we were told the class would be split and another teacher would take half of the class. We stood together and refused to split so an 8AM class was started and our teacher, Ken Stevens, taught the 8AM and the 9:30AM class. The whole class got together for fellowship once a month at some ones home. What a great time that was!
We were there when Dr. Rogers and a team came back from Florida and said that they had not found a solution to our parking problem at the facility downtown but that they wanted to explore the idea( no dream, just an idea) that had come to Dr. Rogers while in Florida about looking for a new church site and possibly moving.
We were there when the property was found. We were there when the church voted to move and over 4000 of us crowed into a 3500 seating capacity building and the press could only find 8 people who voted against the move. We were there when we were asked to give sacrificially to pay for the land so that construction could begin. We were there when the new facility was opened and attended the first service in the new building. We were there four months later when 7500 seats were not enough and another morning service had to be added. We were there when Dr. Tommy Lane retired and Jim Whitmire became the music director after waiting patiently for Dr. Lane to retire. We were there when BBC was a great testimony to the world and will be again if Gods people will stand for the truth and nothing but the truth.
When we moved back to Nashville in 1995 we visited the church where we had been members of many years before. One of our dear friends was getting married in the church and my wife was playing and singing in the wedding. Little did we know that while the wedding was taking place in the sanctuary that a meeting called by the deacons was taking place in another part of the church. The pastor had been caught in adultery. He was fired even though he was loved by most of the congregation and known as a very caring pastor. It took a long time for the church to heal and some members left. My wife and I rejoined this church, even while they were searching for a new pastor, and served on many committees. Some time later I was chairman of the personnel committee and got a call from the new pastor telling me that the custodian, also a member of the church, had been accused of child abuse involving two church teenagers. I did not wait 6 months, six days or six hours. It took me about 30 seconds to call the department of children’s services and ask them what my legal obligation was. They told me I needed no proof, just a suspicion that a child had been molested and I was required to notify DCS. I called an emergency meeting of the personnel committee including the pastor and the accused that night. He admitted to giving two boys porn videos and talking about explicit sex with them. He saw nothing wrong with what he had done. I explained to him the requirement we had to notify DCS and that we would do that after the meeting. We were authorized by the church bylaws to suspend him, but firing would take approval of the active deacon council. The next night one of the committee members and I met with the abuser and I gave him a letter of resignation and asked him to sign it. He signed. We met with him and his wife and he confessed to her what he had done. We then arranged for him to get professional counseling and paid for the first five sessions. He agreed to allow for feedback from the councilor to the pastor and committee as to his progress. Even though he did not think he really had a problem the councilors report showed that he needed a lot of help. We also found out that this was not the first time. Without this report some of the committee members including the pastor would have considered letting him have his job back after counseling, but two of us had no intention of hiring him back and putting children at risk.
I hope all of you know that satan lurks among the saved and unsaved just watching for the opportunity to cause us to stumble. Continue to be respectful but do not hesitate to condemn sin whether it be from a brother, sister, deacon, or pastor.
This situation with the 15 year old girl being removed from the sanctuary and handcuffed can not go unchecked. Truth and justice must be forth coming for her sake as well as those left with any since of God's truth. Ray Saba I was there when you stood for truth and I know you stand for truth now. I was there when your daughters blessed us with their beautiful voices singing in a trio. What if this had been one of your daughters....taken out of the sanctuary and handcuffed! WHERE ARE THE MEN OF BELLEVUE THAT I KNEW AND RESPECTED WHO WILL STAND WITH RAY AND RIGHT THIS AWFULL THING.
Ladies its time to stop talking and start pushing those husbands. You can not do it alone but you can do it united and with God's leadership. Pray for his guidance and then do it!
Your brother in Christ
lynn said: BTW Folks, I was just throwing out Cochran's name for reference. I'd use Cory B. Trotz's but I know of a couple of Bellevue members who work for him who is on the other side of this debate.
Again, you are missing it...there is NO DEBATE, this is FACT! JF has all the statements including that of two ministers that have confirmed everything the child has said! Give that to CoryBTrotz!
Okay, SOTL, you know I love you; but calm down! Don't get out of control and make things worse. Those comments might make the family uncomfortable.
Love you!
Thanks for posting when we couldn't.
nathanb said: Is it possible that another law was broken? I'm not a legal expert but it appears that a wrongful arrest happened.
This is a serious violation of this young lady and it should be dealt with churchwide.
This stuff is starting to scare me.
You are exactly right. It should have been dealt with in the church. The child herself asked for a public apology; just as public as her abuse; but DC told the family that an apology from him was an apology from the church.
It will NEVER be dealt with in front of the church! We have been told that. That is why this family feels they need to leave Bellevue and sadly, it has made me uncomfortable to leave my children at church. PW didn't scare me; this has.
onlyamember said...
Reporter
I am a friend of the mother. The mother was sitting alone in the sanctuary in the youth section.
2:33 PM, March 14, 2007
onlyamember said...
and her parents were down on the main floor with youth leadership;
12:20 AM, April 24, 2007
Onlyamember,
I thought I remembered you saying in your first post re:this incident that the mother was sitting alone, so I went back & checked so I am a little confused on 3/14 you said her mother was sitting alone,
on 4/24 you state the parents were on the main floor.
Can you shed so light on this confusion?
The question is...what was done months ago to be on the banned list ? Shouldn't it be knowh what is expected of the young people at Bellevue and what is considered bad enough to ban someone?
inmemphis said: I am aware Phil Newberry and Steve Gaines were in Colorodo at the time of the incident but was Gregg Hauss or Jason Pyron there that night?
NO, noone was there nor did they contact the family. Greg was out of town. Jamie Fish was contacted by a close personal friend and it 'fell' into his lap. The two ministers that witnessed it, contacted JF the next day. All witness accounts went to JF and he compiled a report for the powers that be. JF said all reports confirmed the childs statement.
Both Greg and Phil were called several times by cell and it took 11 days for Greg to call the family. Vacation or not, this is not the norm for them. We do not believe this was on their own accord. We do believe they were told not to respond. These are wonderful men and this was one of their students, they would have called!
Noone has contacted this child or checked to see if she was okay.
gopher said: The doors are NOT locked from the inside. If they are locked, it is only if you are trying to get in, and they would not be locked on a service night except the Grace building or PreSchool building. There are NO chains on the doors either.
SOUNDS LIKE A SECURITY GUARD TO ME!
Are you the one that did this or are you one of the ones that were there? Either way, you know more than the average member should.
Tell your buddies they are probably single -handedly responsible for a very hurt child! Hope that makes them proud to carry their gun!
SOTL said: MIKE@600WREC.com
ONLYAMEMBER, OUT THE SECURITY GUARDS!!!
SOTL, I will leave that to you; but if they have any questions, they can call me.
inmemphis said: So I guess you could say she was held against her will?
ABSOLUTELY was! AND when they were questioned about it, they would tell everyone it wasnt their business and to go back in the building! AND, they kept her from her mother. AND, it took what seemed like twenty minutes for them to get the cuffs off her once her mother got there! The mother had to scream and insist they get those cuffs off.
sheepless said: Which restaurant was this and was Donna & Steve alone. Were you the person that approached them about this incident or was this second hand information? Just curious.
Sweet Peppers.
They were with their children, but their children left before this conversation. They were not approached about this, this was an öh by the way...do you see that girl...and did you know.... sort of a comment. This is first hand info. I was there.
Gopher said: The only reason the question about the name came up, was that all these other names were posted in a public domain on a Myspace page so it doesn't seem like this was to be kept private. The question has been... what was done montha ago to be on the banned list ? Shouldn't it be knowh what is expected of the young people at Bellevue and what is considered bad enough to ban someone?
Gopher, fair comment. That is why I questioned myself before I posted it. BUT, I wanted those who did not believe me to see it with their own eyes. I was just as stunned as you. Then I got madder as I read it. Then I cried and got upset that this child is still carrying this. I meant to @@@ out the names, but posted before I knew it. I am sorry for posting someone's name without permission. But even so, these are adult men who behaved badly and she is a minor child that was vicimized and abused and tossed to the side.
And gopher, she was NEVER BANNED! Greg Hausse said she was never banned, her parents were never approached or sent anything by mail saying she was banned. They made a mistake. A very costly mistake that they have not made right! Even DC admits that she was never banned and that it was a mistake!
sheepless said: Onlyamember,
I thought I remembered you saying in your first post re:this incident that the mother was sitting alone, so I went back & checked so I am a little confused on 3/14 you said her mother was sitting alone,
on 4/24 you state the parents were on the main floor.
Can you shed so light on this confusion?
Sheepless, it is very late, I am exhausted, you are correct; I did mistype. THE MOTHER WAS ALONE, the father was not there...thank God. I promise you, if he had been there, he would have gone to jail. The police were told this. I think this was God's way of protecting this family. And oddly enough, it was this father that dug into the scriptures and bathed it in prayer!
gopher said: The question is...what was done months ago to be on the banned list ? Shouldn't it be knowh what is expected of the young people at Bellevue and what is considered bad enough to ban someone?
Well gopher, that would be a question for your pastor. Obviously you can cross an itty bitty fence and not be banned. I guess you can use the church's credit card and not be banned, I guess you can be a pediphile for at least six months and not be banned, you can pull a 15yo child alone with 9 grown men without her parents, cuss and handcuff her and not be banned......so, gohper, we don't know.
Now if you are a 15 yo girl sitting in worship taking notes, you can be pulled out, refused your mother and cussed and cuffed.
SHE WAS NEVER BANNED. It was a mistake! Security screwed up and got away with it! Even the low-life, foul-mouth, ego-driven punk that cussed and cuffed her did not get banned. But I am sure, I will be soon for posting truth!
we can't get PW arrested...
we cannot report 2nd hand information about this.
This would have to come from the family.
If you are afraid ,we can't touch it for you. Why would the media want to hear from someone other than the victim or her family.
Same problem we keep having.
And DC lied to the parents.
He will lie to anyone who asks.
It won't even be the families word against DC. no story.
Really no point in giving anyone permission ......it is not our child or family.
gmommylv, now you know the rock and the hard spot that this family is in. They will lie to the death. I even think DC would lie under oath. This family really doesn't have any recourse.
There were witnesses. If they were to speak up,at least they have witnesses. The real police came. They were appalled.They have records.
MY point is that if the family is not willing to deal with this .We cannot deal with it for them.
You have to do what you have to do but I personally do not see how "they have no recourse."
I spoke the truth to an investigator who had no experience with sexual predators or abuse.
But what PW did to me and other women had to be told.
It didn't matter that they wouldn't care or that they would break the law by having non professionals read my confidential info from the Biblical Guidance office without my wriiten permission.
I haven't been the same since DC read the bogus, rationalized report.
BUT I have no regrets.
My kids know I wasn't afraid to make myself uncomfortable in order to speak out against the wrong done under the safety umbrello of BBC .
Silence has allowed BBC to continue their bully control.
That's just me.
I have no husband to shield me. I did this alone (with encouragement from a few deacon friends)
because not speaking out would have made me a victim yet again.
onlyamember said...
lynn said: BTW Folks, I was just throwing out Cochran's name for reference. I'd use Cory B. Trotz's but I know of a couple of Bellevue members who work for him who is on the other side of this debate.
Again, you are missing it...there is NO DEBATE, this is FACT! JF has all the statements including that of two ministers that have confirmed everything the child has said! Give that to CoryBTrotz!
12:40 AM, April 24, 2007
Onlyamember, I apologize. I know the situation with the girl is fact. I was referring to the overall issue of for or against Gaines. Perhaps I should have worded it differently. Again, please accept my sincere apologies.
lynn
That's ok, I was just fired up because I am tired of people not believing this family and saying that it was the girls FAULT. It was late and I thought you believed this was actually a debate! I accept your apology!
Galations 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfullness, gentleness and self-control.
The void of self-control is neither excusable or amusing. It's so incredibly important that the Lord listed it as a fruit of the Spirit.
The last leg of the relay team is often thought of as the most important. It's interesting that self-control anchors His relay team of His fruits to run the race that has been set before us.
It grieves me to learn of what happened to this precious tender 15 year young lady. I pray this morning that the Lord heals her to the point she never looks back at that dark evening in church.
For the armed security guard with no self-control, Bellevue needs to relieve him of his duties immediately.
Only,
Thanks for clarifying.
Now that you mention, the father was not there...
thank God. I promise you, if he had been there, he would have gone to jail.
Seems like I remember this being posted at some time also. I'm afraid I would end up in jail also, had that been my daughter.
People of Bellevue Baptist Church open your eyes, get your head out of the sand!
God gave us eyes to see, ears to hear and a mouth to speak.
WAKE UP...SPEAK UP...GOD IS IN CONTROL, BUT HE EXPECTS US TO TAKE A STAND FOR HIM AND HIS CHURCH.
Watchinghisstory said...
Steve Gaines is one of thoes Godly men you speak about involved in the 2000 BFM.
Is SG a Godly money hungry control freak? Can you have it both ways?
I'm inclined to believe that there are many fundamentalist SBC pastors who are money hungry control freaks. Your sudden erupted passion hints at the fact that you are probally blind to what is really happening in the SBC.
The fact that Steve Gaines was on the commitee that worked on the BF&M 2000 doesn't mean he is a godly man. Just means he fooled the others. It happens.
You say that I am blind to what is really happening in the SBC...once again, you are wrong. The fact you have a hang up on "fundamentalist" anything leads me to believe you have your own issues. I have been in SBC churchs for over 30 years & in the ministry for over 28 years. I am very aware of the power struggle & money hungry people in the convention. They fact you find an article that says that the liberal problem was a myth doesn't mean it is true.
It is apparent that you are a Steve Gaines cronie who will follow blindly.
Maybe you should do REAL research & not just read articles on the internet. Maybe you could change you name for watchinghisstory to RESEARCHING HIS story.
For a well-written account of the controversy in the SBC (1979-), see James C. Hefley's multi-vol. series of books "The Truth in Crisis." Contrary to the claims of a certain poster on this blog, the controversy was about the Word of God. It was about truth. That ought to sound familiar to those who have been posting here...
25+....it sure does sound familiar. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
What I find so disturbing about the 15 yr old girl situation is this: If it can happen to a kid, it can happen to you. If the security guards have no self-control in regard to a situation involving a teenager, what makes you think they will treat you with "kid gloves" (pardon the pun) if they deem you unworthy of attending BBC services? I've looked for the police report and I cannot find it. If anyone else has had any luck, please let me know. This issue is too serious to just let die. I hope BBC is prepared for what is to come as a result of their action and inaction.
karen
Karen,
To get a police report, you have to PHYSICALLY go down to 201 Poplar and request it.
Does anyone work downtown that can do this for us?
It would most likely be filed under " Bellevue Baptist Church".
Wonder how much a full page ad would cost in the CA?
SOTL or Karen,
Was A.C. actually the security guard that cussed and cuffed the 15 y/o girl, or was it speculation?
The family has nothing. I do believe they have asked for a complete file on this and to date hasnt gotten anything.
sheepless,
I believe he was outted because he is the only security guard who's wife sings on the praise team, as described by DC, and someone figured it out.
I deleted the child's MySpace post. If nothing else, Gopher did make me think twice about posting people's names. I reread the child's account and not only was her name in there, but also another teen's name. These childrens names do NOT need to be in the public. I don't care what she has done, you know as well as I do, that if the media gets ahold of this, they will run her through the mud, and she has been through enough.
Sorry for deleting it, but I am sure those that needed to see it, did.
I am sure if you have questions, you can contact the family.
They are just trying to do the right thing and at this point, they just don't know what that is.
Thanks for all your prayers and concerns.
The girl was with me last night and was overwhelmed when I told her people were praying for her and that even had some say every time they saw the crosses, they would pray.
sheeplessatbbc said...
SOTL or Karen,
Was A.C. actually the security guard that cussed and cuffed the 15 y/o girl, or was it speculation?
When onlyamember (I think) posted the description of the security guard, I asked someone I know and it was confirmed it was A (his last name was spelled incorrectly last night - it actually starts with a K). His description, his occupation (which was verified in email) as well as the fact his wife is in the choir all fit A
karen
sheepless,
I was told Andrew was absolutely the one in question. He is paid by BBC to do what he does as well. Call him up and confirm. I'm sure he will tell you.
I was also told that his wife Margie was very rude to several of the women's ensemble that used (I repeat used)to sing together. Margie let a couple of the women (who see the Truth in these matters) know that she refused to sing with them if they couldn't support Steve Gaines and all of his actions.
I think this little anger problem perhaps runs in the family. The women who used to sing in the womens ensemble are some of the sweetest ladies to ever be a part of Bellevue Baptist Church.
This is just another sad story of what's happening these days. I pray for a brokeness at BBC that we've never seen before. Only then, can we move towards Christ.
nathanbI was told Andrew was absolutely the one in question. He is paid by BBC to do what he does as well. Call him up and confirm. I'm sure he will tell you.
I was also told that his wife Margie was very rude to several of the women's ensemble that used (I repeat used)to sing together. Margie let a couple of the women (who see the Truth in these matters) know that she refused to sing with them if they couldn't support Steve Gaines and all of his actions.
NOW I see why DC wouldn't let him go. He is on their side. I am sure if the roles were reversed, the child would have been banned and AK would have been publically apologized to.
Funny how everything comes out to the light sooner or later.
Oh well, you know; God is in control. All we can do is turn it over to Him and let Him deal with it. We can continue to pray for this family. We can continue to pray for this girl. I don't care what you hear about her, she is a sweet child and I would take her as my own anytime! I love this girl and it breaks my heart to see her hurting.
I love my church and I hate what I see her going through. I want so badly to stay and stand firm and see Her through; but I can no longer worship under a man that showed no concern for a hurting child.
God is good, all the time! We know this, we believe it; now, more than ever, we have to live it.
We have been taught our entire lives that the church will be pursecuted; I truely believe this is a wake-up call for us all. Not, just what happened to this girl; but all of it. I believe that there are false prophets among us, I believe that the anitchrist is alive today (Please don't go and say that I am calling anyone the anitichirst) and I believe that we need to get ready! God IS in control and He is preparing His Church and we need to be on board.
I for one am on my knees more, I am in the Word more (I want to understand everything that is being said and going on, I want to know and understand the Truth), I am praying constantly for my children in everything they do and everywhere they go.
We need to cover our church with prayer and pray that the men of Bellevue will rise up and take control and bring an ending to all this!
The dismissal of whoever the security person that did this should be without question. Regardless of political alliances within the church.
If the leadership is not able to determine how to handle problems such as this than the membership should certainly be able to do so.
A Business meeting could solve some of these problems
The church will not have a business meeting without an overwhelming amount of support. Your signature is critical.
There are a few things that I have personally seen as obstacles to correcting the problems that surrond Bellevue at this time.
We Need to Have a Business Meeting
1. Choosing the truth.
There has been mis-information spread about the church. Most of it coming from the administration, leadership and deacons. In the beginning, the "talking points" were to convey that it was all about style and the music, which has never been true. It is about integrity and truth. True Biblical Unity can not be built upon a foundation void of integrity and truth. The administration, leadership and deacons need to be confronted with the truth and come forward with it.
We Need to Have a Business Meeting
2. Conveying the Truth.
If you have questioned, searched and determined the truth, there is no medium available by which to convey the truth. The church has refused to release the membership list which is required by the laws of the State of Tenneessee. They have refused to allow the members a place to hold a meeting in the church of which they are members and they have refused to have a legitimate business meeting.
We Need to Have a Business Meeting
3. Convinincing of the Truth.
Even if you work deligently within the circle of influence that you have you will be met with those that question the truth. The facts that are undisbutable seem insufficeint to convince many people of the truth. The evidence required in regard to the truth is overwhelming. There are many that will accept what they are told as long as it comes from what is considered to be a higher authority. There needs to be a time set aside at which those in the administration and leadership positions are forced to answer some hard questions and the truth be told.
We Need to Have a Business Meeting
4. Caring about the Truth.
Even among those that have been convinced of the truth, there has not been a motivation to care. It is far too easy to do nothing and claim to be waiting on God to settle everything. Certainly, God will settle everything in his own time. However, He requires that as we become more like Jesus that we also be full of Grace and Truth. Christianity should not be something that you pick up at the door and put on every time you walk into the church and leave on the coat rack on your way out.
We Need to Have a Business Meeting
It is not optional for a Christian to Choose the Truth, Convey the Truth, Convince of the Truth and Care about the Truth. It is a mandate.
In the absence of Truth is the prescence of darkness.
nathanb -
could you email me please?
onlyamember,
I to believe that the antichrist is alive and well. You do not have to worry about someone thinking that SG or any of his minions are the antichrist, they are not smooth enough to pull that off. And besides the antichrist could deliver a better sermon than any of them. JMO
concerned,
ROTFL!!!!!!
(hope I put the right initials for that!!)
"Does this strike anyone but me,that this child could be in a state of desperation."
The irony of all of this cannot be missed.
Evidently, this kid did something in the past to make her a target. Now, she is back in church hopefully repentent and just sitting there listening and minding her own business when she is called out and treated like a common criminal with no prior warning.
Now the irony. A minister is outed to the Gaines by his own son that he sodomized his own son for 18 months. For this minister...it is 'under the blood'...forgotten. (Even though Biblically he is not qualified to be an elder and never removed himself for 17 years) This minister is STILL ALLOWED to stay on staff for 6 months until it became public.
So...you tell me...what is this kid supposed to think?
If I could...I would tell her this is NOT how Christians act. That what she has seen and experienced at BBC is NOT Biblical. I pray she will get into the Word so she can discern and really know Christ.
This incident sends a big WRONG message to the teens at BBC....
Some are forgiven and some aren't. It just depends on WHO you are.
Catching up today.
Spending less time here and trying to put some of this behind me.
Sheepless said:
Maybe we should adopt our own theme song, "When the saints go marching OUT"
Piglet got a nice big laugh out of that. :0)
gopher said...
The question is...what was done months ago to be on the banned list ? Shouldn't it be knowh what is expected of the young people at Bellevue and what is considered bad enough to ban someone?
12:55 AM, April 24, 2007
Gopher, A minister who sodomizes his own son was not considered bad enough to remove him immediately even though scripture commands we do. So what was your question again?
lin said
The irony of all of this cannot be missed.
Evidently, this kid did something in the past to make her a target. Now, she is back in church hopefully repentent and just sitting there listening and minding her own business when she is called out and treated like a common criminal with no prior warning.
Now the irony. A minister is outed to the Gaines by his own son that he sodomized his own son for 18 months. For this minister...it is 'under the blood'...forgotten. (Even though Biblically he is not qualified to be an elder and never removed himself for 17 years) This minister is STILL ALLOWED to stay on staff for 6 months until it became public.
Piglet says:
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Gaines and those of like mind CANNOT be consistent. Their decisions do NOT make sense. They are corrupt and the wisdom of God is not in them.
Kinda like the pro-abortion folks that want to "save the spotted owl".
gopher
The girl was NEVER banned, so your question is BESIDE the point.
Maybe Mark Sharpe should have filled charges against SG and the other thugs for trespassing and scaring his children. Wonder what affect it will have on his children as time goes on? Was this not harassment? Was this not a form of abuse?
BBC security sure has a lot of good teachers on how to break the law and not be held accountable. But just remember this is just a "itty bitty" offense concerning the 15 year old.
My prayers are with her and her family. I pray they will seek justice.
Onlyamember, Would you and the family of your 15yo friend like to get together for a real-live worship service this Sunday?
We will find someplace nowhere near BBC or any of their security guards, if y'all would be interested.
I'd invite you to my house, but more than about 10 people maxes us out!
My DH would lead us in studying scriptures, I could try to lead us in singing hymns, my children would wiggle and take notes (but they'd behave better if your friend came with you!!) We could worship the Risen Lord and praise Him for, well, just for Who He is!
Please e-mail me if you're interested. Anyone else? :o)
TN Lizzie,
Are you who I think you are? Email me! Karen
The guard in question is also a MPD detective. Good bust guys, keep up the good work. I know if I still attended BBC I would feel safer.
Fedman,
I'm not sure I understand your post. Could you explain? Why would you feel safer?
I'm sorry I was just being sarcastic. I agree with most of the posts above. I feel that the behavior of the security guards was wrong and that they should be held accountable. If this was my daughter I would be looking for a good lawyer. There is no question that the guard who did this should be immediately fired, or at least in the next six months.
It really bothers me that there is a double standard in Bellevue.
They essentially assault a 15 year old who did nothing, yet they let a CHILD MOLESTER stay on staff for 6 months. Whassup with that? All of this is on Gaines hands.
As Dee Snyder and his band Twisted Sister once sang..."We're Not Gonna Take it...NO! We Ain't gonna take it...we're not gonna take it...anymore!!!!" We need to have this attittude and fight the forces of evil that have been inhabiting Bellevue.
Onlyamember, I am keeping your friends daughter in my prayers. I was once assaulted in school about 10-12 years ago and the administrators did nothing to my attacker. So I really empathize for her family. E-mail me and I will tell you the full story.
It was wrong what BBC did to that teenager girl. But If I could speak to her I will tell her forgive BBC they really do not know what they are doing, pray for them girl, do not hate them be nice to all of BBC when you see them. Do not wish upon them what they did to you. Just CRY to the LORD Jesus please change them. and Just go to another church and they will be nice to you there will be more there who love you than there at BBC, it will get better. Never mind fighting for your rights to attend that church it is not worth it.
Why would they do that to you girl, because they say BBC is private property, they will even say lies about you they don't care and the other members they know nothing, they will believe whatever they are told and say they are right you are wrong. Forget BBC consider it a dead church because
Does anyone know if this young lady is a member of Bellevue?
If the gatekeepers actually told her she was trespassing on private property and they handcuffed her, why was she invited to be a member and not removed after being banned?
If she was "banned" from entering onto church property, did the church remove her from the official roll? If so, when. Was if followed up with a letter stating she had been removed as a member of BBC?
I'm no lawyer but I'd say that if she is a member of BBC, she has a right to be in the church.
Again, I think she has a case for wrongful arrest.
RS,
email me
i cant get thru
To the Teenage girl and her family do not listen to the other people on this website, listen to me please. do not bother about try to get your right to walk in BBC freely, just leave the church just pray for those people there, pray for them to repent and not to do that again.
concerned posted: Maybe Mark Sharpe should have filled charges against SG and the other thugs for trespassing and scaring his children. Wonder what affect it will have on his children as time goes on? Was this not harassment? Was this not a form of abuse?
Reply: I sure hope that is a joke.
So, has anyone asked Dr. Spradlin his thoughts on the $3 million dollar motion and on this blog yet?? If not, why not?
Witq,
Witq, why don't you tell us Dr. Spradlins thoughts, since you are giving the impression that you know.
preacherdude 777 said:
"God raised up godly men in God's time to take back what satan had watered down with liberal, wishy washy "preachers & professors" who denied the very basic articles of the faith"
Then said: "The fact that Steve Gaines was on the commitee that worked on the BF&M 2000 doesn't mean he is a godly man. Just means he fooled the others. It happens."
If SG fooled the men and women on that committee, I wonder who else was fooling others on the committee. AR was the chairman.
So now we have AR fooled by a pedophile and SG not once but twice. The pedophile fooled SG.
Seems there is a lot of fooling going on.
Springer says I am firing missles at Steve Gaines from my inventory and you say: "It is apparent that you are a Steve Gaines cronie who will follow blindly."
Seems that the SBC has a lot of blindness to deal with.
I'm watching His story unfold with eyes wide open!
whyquestion,
Why would you want anyone to ask Dr. Spradlin a question for you. I would hope that he would have been in favor of the money. Why not. Since BBC has been hording money ($21 million on deposit a year ago) and squandering money ($25,000.00) to an apostate church, paying the pastor an ungodly amount of money, on and on, I'd hope he would have gladly used the money to train these young men and women on the correct way to pastor instead of what's happening at BBC.
why is the question?
I said, yes I have. Have you?
Haven't heard your answer yet.
I would imagine Dr. Spradlin's opinion of this blog would be similar to what most preachers would say/have said about it. However for the sake of answering your snide questions, if I were to ask him his thoughts and got that particular response, first I would agree with him that a blog on the www is not the ideal place to discuss church issues. Secondly I would remind him, as I do you, of an analogy to this situation...If a man's once faithful wife suddenly one day becomes an adulteress, would she be guilty?...of course..but the husband must ask himself a very penetrating and important question...though nothing could excuse his wife's behavior, what would drive a once faithful and loving spouse to do such a thing?...perhaps some neglect on his part?...or some other fault that's due him?... perhaps he's innocent...perhaps not...but to walk in the light, the question must be asked...get my drift? Asking questions you know, or feel you know the answers to, provoke no real thought or reflection...you simply come across as snide...which gives you no high ground to stand on and look down on those on this blog, witq. jmo
I do know. What I would like, is if some of you would actually go get some info straight from the horses mouth. As I posted before, just go ask him and get your answers. The problem is, I strongly doubt any of you will actually do it.
allofgrace: So you are blaming this blog and things on it on others? Others are somehow responsible for your actions and the actions of others? Where is that in the Bible?
I said I have. Would love to hear your version socwork.
Why is the question? said...
allofgrace: So you are blaming this blog and things on it on others? Others are somehow responsible for your actions and the actions of others? Where is that in the Bible?
WITQ...
If it wasn't for the corruption in the pulpit at Bellevue, this blog would not be in existance.
lynn: Your last post is totally against what the Bible says. Blaming others for your actions and for this blog?
I do know. What I would like, is if some of you would actually go get some info straight from the horses mouth. As I posted before, just go ask him and get your answers.
Hello?
The problem is, I strongly doubt any of you will actually do it.
You are entitled to your opinion, unfounded though it may be.
Would love to hear your version socwork.
You are the one who keeps bringing it up. If you think it's so vital to the discussion, share your info already.
I won't be manipulated into sharing anything though, thanks.
witq said
lynn: Your last post is totally against what the Bible says. Blaming others for your actions and for this blog?
Piglet says:
I suppose the blog is sinful? What's the difference in this and us sitting at a restaurant over a glass of tea discussing the issues at BBC and what to do about them?
And before you say "Because the world can read it", find a scripture that says to make sure nobody overhears.
I'm sure you know that, according to Gaines, there will be no more meetings and less than 500 people even see a NEED for one and DON"T CARE, so this is how the issues will be discussed unless there is a meeting.
Would you care to get us a place to meet and notify the membership for us? HMM?
witq,
Since you are so good at asking questions, maybe you would be kind enough to answer ONE? What are you trying to accomplish by posting on this blog?
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