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About Me
- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
278 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 278 of 278gmommylv,
Gentle Warrior continues to lift you up in my prayers to our Lord Jesus.
Phil 4:13
Mom4 said,
"I don't want to be standing nearby when He says "STOP"! "
Mom4, are we related somehow? Once again, you have expressed my thoughts just today. Dear Christians, please allow me to reassure you that God's justice doesnt answer to any pastor or board of directors or deacon or "Associate Pastor". I will take Mom4's statement a bit further...I dont even wanna be in Memphis when God cleans out HIS temple. And in HIS timing, I still believe HE will!
David Brown, my friend, I have written your son's name down and will pray for him daily. I lost my cousin in Afghanistan in May 2002 and another cousin is currently fighting in Iraq so I know what its like to be the role of the family waiting and praying for safety. God bless and protect your son, who is our hero!!
David Brown: I will be praying for Kevin. Please keep us posted.
bepatient said...
I am also wondering why the original petition was removed? Anyone care to illuminate?
11:18 PM, February 19, 2007
I received a response that said that an individual had reported it as being a duplicate of his - it is "savesavingbellevue" which is operated by none other than our friend "ace". Also, his site was set up with a false name and his petition listed the names of signers who had never signed - (ie Jim Haywood).
What lengths Satan will go to stop the truth from coming out???
bepatient said...
To any IDCers out there,
If I pay $30 to join IDC can I get a membership list? Because I still don't know who the Board is....
As a pro-gaines deacon's wife, you would be perceived as a mole, which you would be. You just want some inside information to report back to the leadership to make yourself feel superior - again.
Prove yourself honest and truthful, then perhaps we can "consider" your membership qualifications, just like you "consider" ours as members of BBC.
david S said...
What doesn't register to me is how the church is able to operate with:
1. Outdated bylaws.
2. Out of compliance to the bylaws it does have. (ie: Where are the business meetings?)
3. But not give information required by TN law.
It does seem that one of you out there is smart enough to know how to force these issues. When the church is operating within its bylaws, with business meetings, other issues can be dealt with. (Thus the reason Mr. Bratton recently encouraged a business meeting).
A church DOES have to operate within the laws. You can hold them to that.
10:31 PM, February 19, 2007
Mike Bratton, You have been requesting a business meeting at BBC (as others have for over a year). What is the stauts of your requests. Surely the BBC Watchman are interested in what you have requested? Can you give us a progress report?
gmommy wrote: "We may sound crazy when we are surrounded by injustice and lies but we are not."
My friend, Who understands injustice better than those who have so been taken advantage of by those that were given the role from God to protect the innocents?
It is a hardened heart that does not cry out for injustice. When professing Christians are more concerned with protecting the person who protected a pedophile, we are in trouble.
You understand that and your cries are heard by God.
Psalms 5
4For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
5The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
6You destroy those who speak lies;
the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
If we really love God, we will hate what He hates and love what He loves. We should hate injustice, sin and evil in ourselves and others.
Don't let the postmoderns tell you anything else. The God of the OT is the same God in the NT. Jesus said He could do nothing without the Father.
God hates therefore He loves. He is Justice and Wrath. His love was proven on the Cross. It is not something to take lightly.
Thanks you for your stand against injustice and your cries for the innocent.
I have been a Bellevue member for over 17 years. I have been reading these posts for sometime now. I guess it's called "lurking" Anyway, I decided to post my thoughts today because I do not want MY church to continue down the road Steve Gaines and the BBB billionaire's boys club has it on. I've come to the conclusion the reason is is on this road of destruction is because of SIN. Not a moral failure. The standards and values of BBC and of a christian have been lowered by our leadership. Dr. Rogers always strived to be like Jesus. That is the goal of everyone's walk-to become more and more like Jesus. Now SG has lowered the bar so to speak by his blatant sin and unrepentance and lack of humility. All of the people around him that want to be the WHO's Who have been validated. They can look at their pastor and say hey I'm as good as he his. That's because SG has not lead his flock to keep their eye on Jesus but instead on himself. To SG and the leadership of BBC-The TRUTH will set you free.
Mom4 wrote: "As a pro-gaines deacon's wife, you would be perceived as a mole, which you would be. You just want some inside information to report back to the leadership to make yourself feel superior - again."
Aha! That explains quite a bit. Bepatient, have you seen this about the qualifications for Deacon's wives:
1 Timothy 3
Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things.
You wouldn't want that list to slander anyone, would you? Have you slandered anyone on this blog? Have you been dignified? Faithful in all things of Christ?
Just asking since you seem to love asking so many questions and have pointed out that our hearts could not be right if we agreed with sotl.
gmommylv wrote: "Just for the record...JMO's remarks to SOTL were particularly low."
Please elaborate as to how my posting was "particularly low" especially compared to the ranting and out right slander that SOTL and others post without challenge all day long. If a person is a victim with a condition that is easily affect by others opinions on a blog then there is an easy solution. It is not fair for one to post such hate filled comments about David Coombs then hide behind a shield of being a victim when held accountable for one's statements.
" If a person is a victim with a condition that is easily affect by others opinions on a blog then there is an easy solution. It is not fair for one to post such hate filled comments about David Coombs then hide behind a shield of being a victim when held accountable for one's statements. "
Such love! When one does not like the truth they call it hate. Liberals have been using that taciic for decades.
Dear JMO: Trust me when I say we don't need you to hold anyone accountable on this blog, victims or not. You may think that is your role but it is not.
If you feel so strongly that DC has been slandered, call him and tell him to sue us. He knows me and he knows the name of the person you speak of.
There is One much greater than either you or I who will hold us accountable in the end. I and other victims are willing to take that chance and be judged by His standards. I know whos side He is on. He preached a entire sermon on the matter standing on a mount if I believe correctly.
Yes, you have stooped to an all time low. You suggest that if this bothers someone so much you have a simple solution. I say to you my brother or sister that goes both ways. If it bothers you so much, why come on this blog then?
To all the victims out there, POST away. God understands and He loves you.
I love you ALL.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
esther,
Good word.
Liberals are taking over Bellevue and the Southern Baptist Convention because they are after the money. Take away the money and most every problem going on at Bellevue today dissapears.
Why did Steve Gaines come to Bellevue in the first place? He told his own church at Gardendale he told the committee NO three times. Was it the prospect of big money that lured him to Bellevue in hopes of using Bellevue as a stepping stone to the presidency of the Southern Baptist Convention?Is is right for the pastor to earn in the top 1% of wage earners in the United States?
Takeaway the money and the secrecy inside Bellevue goes away. The finance office at Bellevue may be the most guarded place in America besides Fort Knox and the Whitehouse. What could be behind those doors that have to be so guarded?
Ester,
Please read my post including the comment from SOTL and honestly answer two questions: 1. Do you see complete truth in SOTL's statement? 2. Do you see any anger in SOTL's statement. Your response to these questions will help me understand your position of one who searches for truth.
"He has not ONE OUNCE of integrity. NOT ONE." writes sickofthelies.
My response:
Not one ounce...I can just feel the anger in your pen. May I suggest that you seek help with that anger! I read where people on this blog praise your comments but I know of One who does not praise your comments. I don't mean this to sound trite or uncaring but you need to seek someone to help you with your anger and bitterness. There is no way that others who are honest in their hearts and minds cannot read the bitterness that SOTL pens."
JMO: You call it bitterness; I call it righteous anger.
Seeking truth,
AMEN!
Dee
Truth or lie?,
To your 8:47 AM comments, I say
AMEN!
Dee
Personally David, I don't know how you victims do it. It has to be the Grace of God.
On one hand, you kept silent for so many years because of your terrible secret. In some cases, the victim knows it will tear apart the family and they will be blamed. In other cases, the victim may be scared the parent will be angry with them and not protect them. Who wants to know that or be responsible for that? So silence must be the easiest way.
Then you have to deal with why God allowed it because you are young and do not understand the nature of evil yet. Or, understand how someone who 'represents' God could do such a thing. So, you have this nagging feeling that God may not really love you and who in your life is teaching you different at that age? Especially if your abuser is masquerading as a 'Man of God'.
Then, when you finally speak out, you come up against a barrier of influential people protecing themselves instead of gathering around the victim to seek justice and help them heal. (Not to mention protecting other possible victims) The effects of the abuse must start all over again!
Then when you realize that God hates injustice and start speaking out for others who are abused and treated in the same way, others chime in and call you unforgiving and bitter. And this from professing Christians who should know that God's approval and God's Mercy are two totally different things!
It just never ends, does it?
Are we really that desensitized to this heinous sin against innocents? It just seems incredible to me.
David, is all due respect, yes I do need to hold ones on this blog accountable. The Bible tells me so. Secondly, if you for an instant believe that someone because he/she is a victim has the right to slander, post hate filled untruths then I have an issue with that position. I do not know you or any other posters (except Derrick) but I have known David Coombs for many many years. No he is not the most compassionate man in the world but his integrity and love of Jesus has been shown in his words and deeds for my eyes to witness. I have not accused you of anything but in defense of SOTL you would indicate such. SOTl is without question posting hate filled mistruths about someone that has shown himself to me to be a man of integrity.
concernedsbcer writes: "JMO: You call it bitterness; I call it righteous anger."
But as Dr. Rogers so often pointed out...the Truth will remain the Truth no matter ones opinion of it. You can call it righteous anger but it isn't. Phases which included personal attacks (ie millionaire's club, lack of integrity) are not righteous anger but an internalized deeply formed bitterness being elementarily expressed.
Just My Opinion said...
David, is all due respect, yes I do need to hold ones on this blog accountable. The Bible tells me so.
jmo,
Just curious...is someone holding you accountable?
JMO,
Answer a question for me. Did he act with integrity when he denied cw's request to be interviewed with other people present? It's a simple yes or no question. If you find yourself at NO then what?
jmo, read my last post for my thoughts on this.
Personally, I agree with sotl based on DC's own actions to date. I never listen to words...I look at actions. What you call bitterness dripping from her pen, I see as a cry for justice from one who knows first hand and a plea for eyes to be opened....David did quite a bit of this himself in the Psalms.
Quite frankly, I am more concerned about people like you who confuse God's Approval with God's Mercy. I cannot for the life of me figure out why you are not outraged by the actions of your Shepherds over the past 9 months.
I will never understand it.
When the Hebrews wanted to make a serious point, they repeated themselves over and over. That is why you see so much repetition of words in the OT. We do not find God is Love, Love, Love written in the Bible but we do find: God is Holy, Holy, Holy. In both the OT and the NT.
If you are not sure exactly what 'Holy' means please do a scripture study on that word. It is very eye opening.
mom4 said
As a pro-gaines deacon's wife, you would be perceived as a mole, which you would be. You just want some inside information to report back to the leadership to make yourself feel superior - again.
But I am the one who is not trustworthy? I haven't lied to anyone here and I certainly wouldn't stoop to taking shots in the dark about who someone was in hopes I hit on something. If you want to know who I am, email me. There are plenty of people here who know who I am, you don't have to post lies about me.
So lets see- IDC is open to all BBC members, except the ones that don't agree with you? Sounds like another case of not practicing what you preach.
JMO said: Not one ounce...I can just feel the anger in your pen. May I suggest that you seek help with that anger! I read where people on this blog praise your comments but I know of One who does not praise your comments. I don't mean this to sound trite or uncaring but you need to seek someone to help you with your anger and bitterness. There is no way that others who are honest in their hearts and minds cannot read the bitterness that SOTL pens." Then you said: You can call it righteous anger but it isn't.
Maybe I do not understand exactly what you are saying, but it seems to me as if you switched canoes in the middle of the stream. SOTL is angry: angry that others refuse to see the sin that has ensnared the leadership at BBC. Angry that excuses are being made instead of solutions found. Some are given the gift for seeing things in black and white. Maybe we are born with this gift, maybe it is born out of hardship; I don't know. The fact is that BBC is straying farther and farther from scripture, and consequently, from God. It seems to me that you want to discuss the wording used instead of the issue being discussed. The issue is that lies and secrecy have become the way of the leadership at BBC. Take any number of issues and this can be seen. Her response seems to me to be righteous anger not bitterness.
ester writes: "Quite frankly, I am more concerned about people like you who confuse God's Approval with God's Mercy. I cannot for the life of me figure out why you are not outraged by the actions of your Shepherds over the past 9 months."
And quite frankly, I am concerned with one who makes assumptions. You will not read any posts from me that has upheld SG actions. Quite the contrary, I have posted that he has erred way too many times. My defense of late has been concerning DC because I see untruths written about a man I've respected for years. Yes, David is an accountant by training and his personality sees much in black or white. I know that he doesn't come across compassionate but he has compassion in his heart. Would you not defend a friend who you would see being treated unjustly. I see more compassion for anonymous posters than for one who's flesh we witness. I stand by David Coombs because I know that he is honest and with integrity.
From Psalm 139
Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!
O men of blood, depart from me!
They speak against you with malicious intent;
your enemies take your name in vain!
Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
I hate them with complete hatred;
I count them my enemies.
Jmo: Does that sound 'bitter' to you? sotl, is tame compared to this and she is angry at injustice a and those who hate righteousness just like David is here... only David makes it clear he hates them.
Here are some notes from Spurgeon on this part of Psalms 139:
Verse 21. Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? He was a good hater, for he hated only those who hated good. Of this hatred he is not ashamed, but he sets it forth as a virtue to which he would have the Lord bear testimony. To love all men with benevolence is our duty; but to love any wicked man with complacency would be a crime.
To hate a man for his own sake, or for any evil done to us, would be wrong; but to hate a man because he is the foe of all goodness and the enemy of all righteousness, is nothing more nor less than an obligation. The more we love God the more indignant shall we grow with those who refuse him their affection.
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ let him be Anathema Maranatha." Truly, "jealousy is cruel as the grave." The loyal subject must not be friendly to the traitor.
And am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? He appeals to heaven that he took no pleasure in those who rebelled against the Lord; but, on the contrary, he was made to mourn by a sight of their ill behaviour. Since God is everywhere, he knows our feelings towards the profane and ungodly, and he knows that so far from approving such characters the very sight of them is grievous to our eyes.
For some reason you do not understand that we must hate what God hates. God hates the behavior of your Shepherds. The truth does not sound loving in the post modern era. But it is.
lindon.....thank you... you get it...thank you for your heart and discernment.There is also an issue of worth that most of us struggle with. We learn and are so grateful for God's truth about who we really are...how precious we are to Him but so often the world makes that very difficult.In my particular case,my own mother told me that since I was "used"no one would want me. That has a tendency to haunt...even tho God's truth and love nurtures and strenghtens me.So I fight or give up and suck my thumb. I haven't found that middle area but I am confident that God is not finished with me yet!!!Last Thursday,a deacon officer with several degrees, asked me ...when did I want to hurt MY children...since whoever informs the officers had told the officers that victims always abuse others....(I assume in defense of PW)....I was not able to be mad at him because I could see in his eyes that he believed what he was told...and he believed he was "ministering" to me. I don't understand educated,biblically trained Christians accepting what this man and others are so willing to accept.He went on to say that when PW told SG he was reformed,healed repented....why would SG question a minister...?????? inside I was screaming....use your brain!!!....but if I told you the profession of this man...too many would know who he is and as I said I SAW in his eyes that he didn't have an agenda....his heart was pure...even tho his words to me (so sorry to be blunt but what I thought)were so STUPID. What this officer was told by maybe BM or whoever, was absolutely incredible. They were also told bold lies about certain individuals response to the report.....that could not have been ignorance....had to be premeditated. Is this not an outrage??? Are people in positions of leadership and responsible for the protection of so many others suppose to be liars???? DB is addressing some of those outright lies so I have done my best to be quiet. I was told by this deacon officer,SS teacher, that the answer to all my problems was to memorize scripture and forgive PW......when I told my daughter this,she said ,your forgiving PW is not even an issue...and she is right....I am angry at those that lie,corrupt,and protect what should not be protected. For me ,it doesn't matter about the "win"...God will take care of all that in His time. It doesn't matter if I am outnumbered....what matters is that what I know to do,I do. I have to stand. My son is watching.....the men I thought would represent strength and courage to him....are lying. My children have NOT been abused but they have been taught to speak the truth and not be fearful....and when they know they have messed up....speak it,own it,and be accountable. The world is confusing enough. Our church leaders should not be.
Tim,
As far is this just being a matter of my curiosity, you are wrong.
Lets assume for a minute I supported the way IDC was handling the problems at BBC. I am supposed to put my blind faith that all the people in charge of IDC are men (or women) of integrity?
It seems like you are just trying to avoid anyone airing the dirty laundry of your leaders or protecting their jobs?
You are always saying we shouldn't put blind faith in people at BBC we have known for years, but that is exactly what you are asking people to do here only without even the benefit of a name.
Practice what you preach.
JMO,
And I would say to your last comment there are many many many people who felt exactly the same way about PW before the fall. Look at his current actions and attitudes. Where does that lead you?
"Would you not defend a friend who you would see being treated unjustly. I see more compassion for anonymous posters than for one who's flesh we witness. I stand by David Coombs because I know that he is honest and with integrity."
If DC were my friend, I would lovingly but firmly rebuke him for eternity sake. He has agreed to further the evil deeds of your shepherd and protect wrong doing operating in secrecy. His role in what has happened in the past few months is very clear. You should be grieved for your friend...if you love him. Beware of following mere men.
You are blind to what you perceive as integrity that isn't. But, I know how it works..it is cool to be close to the powers and be their friend. Don't let that blind you to truth.
"Lets assume for a minute I supported the way IDC was handling the problems at BBC. I am supposed to put my blind faith that all the people in charge of IDC are men (or women) of integrity?"
this is confusing. We already know by a shadow of a doubt the ministers you defend have no integrity and do not care about scriptural commands and precepts.
You still sound like Hillary. Ignoring the real issue and attacking the messengers.
Dear JMO: For the record I use my name. I would say the whole world can hold me accountable. My email address and phone numbers are public. What about you? Why are you are still anonymous?
I am certain that DC dosen't need you defending him. He is certainly capable of doing that himself. I am sure he is not even worried about what is said on this blog. Why are you? Hasn't the leadership told you not to blog?
I do have two accouantability partners. One is the senior pastor of a large church here in the Memphis area. And the other is a pastor of a church near Memphis. I would not be worried about ole David here JMO.
Come on JMO, tell us who you are. Derrick Calcote, Mike Bratton are not afraid to use their names. Why are you?
As for the victims that post on here and those that don't; we will no longer be silent. We are tired of being told we should be quite, to put it behind and move on. We will not be shamed into being silent. We will not be shamed into silence by being humilated or called names. We will continue to speak out and speak out loudly.
I am sorry if you don't like that. We just will not be silent any longer. I was silent for virtually 44 years. JMO I am just getting started. You haven't seen anything yet, trust me.
I ask that you email me and we can continue our discussions there. That way we don't have to drag everyone else in our debate. What about it?
David Brown.
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
"I was told by this deacon officer,SS teacher, that the answer to all my problems was to memorize scripture and forgive PW......"
This is unbelievable. This person is a deacon and SS teacher? I would run as fast as I can out of that class. He may be well meaning but he does not understand scripture well enough to teach it to others.
What does your forgiving PW have to do with the willful sin against scripture from your shepherds in church leadership?
"I am angry at those that lie,corrupt,and protect what should not be protected. For me ,it doesn't matter about the "win"...God will take care of all that in His time. It doesn't matter if I am outnumbered....what matters is that what I know to do,I do. I have to stand. My son is watching.....the men I thought would represent strength and courage to him....are lying."
You should be angry and grieved at sin, lying and corruption in the Bride of Christ. God is angry about it, too.
Here is the real scary part: If the sin and corruption in Christ's Bride is not dealt with here...now on this earth with "true repentence" (people need to understand that word) then God's Wrath will bring the Justice for this at the appointed time. Do you have any idea how scary that is? Why do people take this so lightly?
Just My Opinion said,
"yes I do need to hold ones on this blog accountable. The Bible tells me so. Secondly, if you for an instant believe that someone because he/she is a victim has the right to slander, post hate filled untruths then I have an issue with that position."
response: Do you believe the words you typed? I believe you do. If you want to make a difference, please go to Steve Gaines and Jeff Arnold Jr. and ask them if they slandered Mark Sharpe or Richard Emerson to the staff and deacons when they misrepresented what went on during their first meeting on Wednesday night.
That was a huge sin committed on the part of Jeff Arnold Jr. and Steve Gaines when they purposefully lied to the church via the staff and deacons slandering these two men. Mark Sharpe and Richard Emerson went out of love and in the right spirit for the pastor and Bellevue. To this day, neither man has repented of turning people away from the truth.
The meeting was completely misrepresented by these men to the special called staff meeting and the special called deacon group that consisted of current and former deacon officers. Steve Gaines and Jeff Arnold Jr. need to repent for the grievous misrepresentation they made.
To this day, neither one has corrected their misdeed. To this day, many of these men and women who heard the words come from their pastor and Jeff Arnold Jr. believed these men (as they should be able to believe their pastor). It's hard to not believe a man who is the senior pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church. It's unbelievable to think he would misstate something for his benefit.
Their silence on this issue says it all.
Has anyone checked the petition lately? Number 99 is signed John S. Gaines. That is Steve's name. Did someone else sign for him as a joke?
100 and counting.
ATTENTION IDC LEADERS AND MEMBERS
Some people desperately want to know who you are. DO NOT TELL THEM. You will be harassed mercilessly. They may even attempt to have you removed from the church membership. You might lose jobs and positions with the church. We need you in those positions, so please remain private. I don’t have to know your names to say thank you.
Those attacking you for not releasing information have tremendous chutzpah. You are a private organization and can do as you wish. I am sure you will release information as you feel led to do so. If they don’t like how you operate, they should not join.
Insteading of worrying about you, if they spent their time and energy demanding openness and accountability at Bellevue, there would be little need for your organization. They cannot see their own hypocrisy. You are not held to the standards of a church. As nonmembers, they have no right to expect anything. In contrast, as church members at Bellevue, you have the right to expect truth, openness, and accountability. None of those virtues exists right now.
I am too busy to join you but I wholeheartedly support anything you can do to restore Bellevue’s integrity. You are all in my prayers.
dgJMO says:
SOTl is without question posting hate filled mistruths about someone that has shown himself to me to be a man of integrity.
I have posted nothing that is not true. Please state what I have said about DC that is not true.
bepatient,
I do owe you an apology. I should have said "daughter-in-law" instead of wife. I must have confused you with another poster.
INFORMATION REQUEST
Thanks for the financial information posted regarding the past two years' budgets. The request to compare it to the one from 3 years ago is a good request. Someone reading and/or posting here knows the numbers and in light of the focus on finding out specifics, why not post them here? I don't mean budget numbers, I mean position numbers in comparison to previous ones.
One specific question is that if the administration was cut by three employees (Smith, McQuiston, and Powell) then how could there have been an increase? I'm just throwing that out there.
BSF numbers...a pro-SG casual attendee stated to me that we have many hundred more attending, even thousands more. Where is that coming from and specifically, what are the numbers on attendance over the past 18 months compared to the prior 18 months?
I can't keep up with the blog moment by moment, so if someone has a response after the next few minutes I would appreciate receiving it in an e-mail in addition to a post. Thank you in advance!
mom4,
thanks for the apology, I am still waiting for one regarding the "mole" comment. I guess this also confirms that those I have trusted with my information have no qualms about spreading it around. No wonder people choose to be anonymous.
tim, proverbs, etc:
IDC is affecting our church in as many ways as the leadership is, so I have a right to question their intentions just as you have a right to question our leaders.
bepatient,
First, I did not reference you.
Second, you can question their intentions, I see no problem with that. What you should not do is try to force them to reveal who they are. Do you know realize what has happened to men and women who publicly question the pastor? Why should a minister give up his job at Bellevue because he has questions? Why should a deacon be forced to step aside? Why should a deacon officer be thrown overboard?
Don't think there is no spill-over into the secular work world as well. These brave souls are risking much as it is. Don't demand they imperil themselves any further.
proverbs,
I just think IDC is asking for blind faith that the people leading this have integrity and the right motives, which is the very thing that you are saying we should not do for the leadership. I just don't understand that.
I am belittled and ridiculed for my "blind" faith, but is that not what IDC is asking for?
3rdside,
It was cut by more than three men.
The Office of Administration lost Randy Redd, David Powell, Bryson McQuistion (reassigned to another job inside Bellevue, David Smith, Jim Whitmire (replaced by Jamie Parker), and Craig Parker (replaced by Chip Freeman).
Whoever told you the numbers are up is pumping out false information. It's sad to see what's happening to our church.
If you want accurate numbers, don't go to the new Minister of Numbers.
The numbers are down considerably. Just look around and you can see more empty seats and the low number of choir attendees.
The worship attendance numbers are down much more % than the BF attendance. That's interesting. Usually when there is a decrease in attendance, the BF will track close to the worship attendance.
SOTL posted:
"I have posted nothing that is not true. Please state what I have said about DC that is not true."
SOTL posted: (in reference to David Coombs)
"He has not ONE OUNCE of integrity. NOT ONE."
SOTL, I consider the second posted to be an untruth and very much a slander against a man of God. I know that David has integrity.
David, in reference to your last posting. I support victims and their rights. But I do not support victims taking the opportunity to use their podium as a sledge hammer against the honor of a person I know for a fact has strong character and integrity. Please don't make assumptions about my positions, nor will I yours. I will not be baited into a position that I do not hold.
mom4,
I meant to add that perhaps this kind of disrespect for privacy in your "camp" is the reason people do not want BBC to release that list....
IDC
I questioned the IDC’s reality last week and received two very kind e-mails to let me know that I should not take it personal and things are developing slower than I (3rdside) had anticipated. I see their need for anonymity and keeping information limited to a "need to know" basis for now. After all, I enjoy my ministry at BBC and feel threatened to stay unidentified or be out of favor. At the same time, we will all have to come out of the closet in time.
IDC is only one of the efforts going on to clean-up Bellevue. If you don't like them, don't join them. Form your own group or join another group. Just leave them alone. It's that simple.
You are not asked to have blind faith in IDC because you are not a part of IDC. Everyone knows what they want. They want openness, truth, accountability, integrity at Bellevue. Who can be against that? They are not running for mayor. They aren't trying to take over Bellevue. They want integrity restored. You do not have to trust them for anything.
Truth or lie?
I concur with your attendance observations. Are those numbers posted on the BBC website anywhere?
I did also finally receive an email from IDC and I have a question.
1. Do you have to be a member to come to the meeting?
2. Do you have to pay the $30 at the door to attend?
I am trying to keep an open mind and hear what IDC is saying it and how they are saying it, but not sure if I want to donate to the cause yet.
3rdside,
Larry Ray can give you the BF #'s.
Steve Gaines can give you the Worship #'s.
be patient,
It hurts to be told no, huh? How many times have members of BBC gone to their leadership and been told "no" or "if you don't like it, leave" or "find another place to worship".
These members are entitled to the information they were reqesting - I'm not talking about recently; I'm talking about way back before savingbellevue.com or IDC came about.
I'll let you know right now, I'm actively involved with IDC. What is the BBC leadership going to do to me? Poke me in the eye with the bylaws? They're not being used for anything so they might as well use them to beat me with.
To BBC leadership, I have an 8 ft fence at my new house, if you want to climb it, please beware of dog! She may lick you to death.
Karen
memphis
You reference a meeting of IDC. Is there one planned?
JMO said
Would you not defend a friend who you would see being treated unjustly. I see more compassion for anonymous posters than for one who's flesh we witness. I stand by David Coombs because I know that he is honest and with integrity.
Piglet says:
Yes, I would defend a friend falsly accused.
Please explain why David issued a report and called it thorough after refusing testimony from the witness five times?
Why is he concealing information that should be legally available to the church body?
If I were his friend, Iw ould be so grieved over this.
No one has mentioned in the numbers the church seems to want to put out that there has been 80 plus Ushers that have resigned. These are men that have served the church for years but do not feel they can serve any more.
be patient said
You are always saying we shouldn't put blind faith in people at BBC we have known for years, but that is exactly what you are asking people to do here only without even the benefit of a name.
Piglet says:
Those attending the meetings know the board of directors - it's not really a big secret. We haven't published the names in front of our opposition but those who become members can know easily enough.
So simmer down. :)
3rdside and memphis,
Please refer to the IDC website - www.integritydoescount.com. All information should come from the website.
Thanks!
karen
lwood
80 ushers have resigned? How many total ushers were there before their resignations and have there been replacements?
3rdside, Once you join, according to the email, they will keep you up to date as to when the meeting will be scheduled. I do not know if they will post it or not, since I am not a member.
be aptient said
I meant to add that perhaps this kind of disrespect for privacy in your "camp" is the reason people do not want BBC to release that list....
Piglet says:
Uh, excuse me, but releasing the list is the law regardless of what various individuals think of it.
memphis
Forgive the cyclical discussion...but my central issue is how does one know how to join? Where did you find out about a $30 fee?
Bepatient said...
Why does it matter if 4545 is a deacon?
So many times during conversations on anonymity people have brought up that it puts us all on a level playing field- it doesn't matter your status at the church, how much money you have, etc. Are the opinions of 4545 any more or less valid if he is a deacon?
11:05 AM, January 11, 2007
BePatient,
It is much easier to practice what you preach, when your sermons are based on situtational ethics. Let us know when you make your mind up.
Memphis,
Send questions to the IDC email address. They are staying more current on answering emails these days.
piglet,
I was informed earlier that I would not be allowed to join because I am a mole.
It is still asking for blind trust if you can't find out without giving money and joining.
IDC is presuming to speak for the congregation- I should be allowed to know who is speaking for me.
3rdside, I receieved something like an application or information sheet to fill out and send back to them. The $30 fee was mentioned in the email to help defray costs. It made it clear that the fee is not for any type of salaried position. It also stated that if you could not send the fee in, then you could pay at the door.
Karen said
HI'll let you know right now, I'm actively involved with IDC. What is the BBC leadership going to do to me? Poke me in the eye with the bylaws? They're not being used for anything so they might as well use them to beat me with.
To BBC leadership, I have an 8 ft fence at my new house, if you want to climb it, please beware of dog! She may lick you to death.
Piglet says:
LOL!! Priceless!
piglet,
Did I make ya squeal? :)
karen
be patient said
IDC is presuming to speak for the congregation- I should be allowed to know who is speaking for me.
Piglet says:
We speak on behalf of concerned members of BBC who are currently dissatisfied with the lack of openness and integrity in our church leadership. Anyone like minded may join - even little pigs. :o'
If you disagree with us, then obviously, we are NOT speaking for you.
Tim,
it is much easier to sound factual if you take things out of context.
I will also say that 4545 was only speaking for himself, not for others.
And I was pointing out that for those of you that want to work (and post) in the shadows, you sure are concerned about knowing who everyone else is.
ATTENTION!
A NEW THREAD HAS BEEN STARTED IF EVERYONE WANTS TO MOVE UP BEFORE THIS ONE GETS TOO LONG.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
"IDC is affecting our church in as many ways as the leadership is, so I have a right to question their intentions just as you have a right to question our leaders. "
Folks, personally I do not believe bepatient (or Hillary) has the right to any information. She is obviously protected by the rich powers that be. Let her have HER blind faith. Perhaps this scandal has something to do with her past or something and she is blinded by that. Who knows. All I know is her 'strawman' points are wearing thin. Everytime she points a finger trying to make parallels with the sin of her idols to IDC, 9 other fingers are pointing back.
Perhaps in the end, she really does not have high standards for pastors or ministers. That much is clear.
BTW: I thought your pastor told you all not to come here because we are all kooks. No wonder mom4 thinks you are a mole.
Ester, not a nice post imo. Why not state your opinion without trying to belittle anyone?
Esther,
I agree with your post on Bepatient.
Bepatient needs to be patient.
Since opposition only numbers 50 or less, why is Bepatient and Memphis concerned about $30 and membership to something they don't support. It's obvious IDC is not speaking for those who love the type of closed door government inside their church. The closed door type government reminds me of the Catholic form of church government.
I don't recall Bepatient and Memphis being too concerned about $25,000 going out the window recently. What's $30?
"Why not state your opinion without trying to belittle anyone?"
That would be impossible with you guys. You all think everything is bitter, unforgiving, hateful and belittling except what you all post.
I am sure bepatient is well taken care of by the powers that be. What I am curious about is why is she here? Her idol, Gaines, told them not to visit the blog...so what is her point? Just to pick apart every comment and demand IDC do what BBC has refused to do?
How long have the New Letters been on SavingBellevue?
I have been a member of BBC for 20 years but I am new to this blog so forgive me for asking about an old subject.I notice someone said that something happened to Mrs. Rogers. Can you please tell me what was done to her?
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