Please continue your discussions from the "About that 'Check'... " thread here.
A separate "favorite hymns" topic has been started below. Please try to keep that one "on topic."
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About Me
- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
411 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 411 Newer› Newest»Heavenly Father, niv kjv belize. In Jesus's name, AMEN.
(offline... praying hard).
The Suffering of a Christian - Just Food for Thought
As you read through these scriptures, just know that you are standing for Jesus and that though you are being ridiculed and persecuted, it is in doing what is right in His namesake! God bless everyone of you who understand and can discern the present times of turmoil in the church. And we must remember to be in prayer for those who do not understand. Pray for the scales to be removed from their eyes. Now the scriptures:
Acts 5:41 They went on their way from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name.
Acts 14:22 Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.
Romans 5:3-5 We also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance . . . proven character . . . hope, and hope does not disappoint . . .
Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.
Philippians 3:8 I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ.
1 Thessalonians 3:3 . . . so that no man may be disturbed by these afflictions for you yourselves know that we have been destined for this.
Hebrews 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Hebrews 12:6,11 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son who He receives. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful, yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
James 1:2-4 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, that you may be perfect and complete lacking nothing.
James 5:10-11 As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. Behold, we count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lords dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.
2 Timothy 3:12 All who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
1 Peter 4:16,19 If anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but in that name let him glorify God. Let those also who suffer according to the will of God entrust their souls to a faithful creater in doing what is right.
BBC is the only Church I have ever attended that did not post in the bulletin :
Previous week's attendance.
Money given from previous week.
Percent over or under budget.
Who do we call at the Church to ask for this information?
You had me wiping the water off my screen with that one!
NASS
Maybe that was my true feeling about Starbucks! lol Anyways, glad I could give you a laugh...see I am not a bad guy after all!
imaresistor: THANK YOU SO MUCH! Such encouragement.
concernedSBCer said...
"imaresistor: THANK YOU SO MUCH! Such encouragement."
You are more than welcome...the scriptures mean so much to me too. My husband and I have already been 'dismisssed' from our church for our stand and it was horrible and remains so. I know what you are all going through. Those grounded in the Word know and understand...the discerners understand. If we have read 'the back of the book', we know where we are.
Have a great day in the Lord.
Ima
Ima, you are right. We have read the end of the book and guess what? WE WIN!!! It doesn't make today any easier but it does restore our HOPE for tomorrow. I hope you have a great day and thanks for the encouragement you gave me today. I needed it and you have been a blessing.
The message was great. I truly worshipped when Zach Thomas sang that song. made me look at my sins and not otehrs. What did you guys think?
Liberty: Excellent Post. Thanks for putting everything is a logical, non-emotional format. This really is not an issue completely for the church; it's also an issue for the law. Forgiveness and Consequences are not the same thing.
Bothered, I agree, during the service I did not think of PW, or SG or anyone elses sins or lack of forgiving, but took the time to look into my own heart.
If you look what's going in our Church today, you will know what the sermon will be about next Sunday. That is the pattern.
Does that make the sermon self serving? Yes
liberty,
Thank you so much for your powerful post. Hopefully no one will accuse you of libel, slander and being hate filled - you stated the facts as they are and people really can't argue with facts.
karen
Today's Prayer
January 21, 2007
God, Your Word tells us to love our enemies, to pray for those who spite or persecute us. That's quite a "tall order" for a human, but through the enabling of Your Holy Spirit, I can do it. Please remind me to pray instead of complain, to pray instead of get angry, to pray instead of feel sorry for myself. I pray for all the people I have relationships with in my family, neighborhood, workplace, church, school...wherever I live, work, and play, that you would help them to focus on You. If they do not know you, draw them to You. If they do know You, remind them to think "What would Jesus do?" before they act. Remind me too. Thank you for Your love and patience with us. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Skillful Worker
TGIF Today God Is First, by Os Hillman
Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will serve before kings; he will not serve before obscure men. - Proverbs 22:29
The Lord has called each of us to be excellent in what we do. Those whom God used in the Kingdom as workplace ministers were skilled and exemplified excellence in their field. Not only were these men skilled, they were filled with God's Spirit.
Then the Lord said to Moses, "See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts-to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship" (Exodus 31:1-5).
Consider Huram, the master craftsman of bronze in whom Solomon entrusted much of the temple designs. He was a true master craftsman (see 1 Kings 7:14).
Consider Joseph, whose skill as an administrator was known throughout Egypt and the world. Consider Daniel, who served his king with great skill and integrity. The list could go on-David, Nehemiah, Acquilla and Priscilla.
I recall the first issue of an international publication we began. It was common to hear the comment, "It doesn't even look like a Christian magazine." They were saying the quality and excellence exceeded what they equated to Christian work. What a shame. Has inferior quality become synonymous with Christian work?
May we strive for excellence in all that we do for the Master of the universe.
Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving (Colossians 3:23-24).
There is still one fact I would like to know.
What exactly did PW confess to? "moral failures", "sins against the family" is pretty broad.
Trollcate
You have a heart problem my friend. If you cannot listen top a song like that and worship, then why are oyu there? I am upset about all this stuff at church too, but I guess my heart is still soft....
bothered,
please email me.
Thanks!
Karen
Bothered,
I am there in the interest of the truthseekers, those whom will not be moved by a premeditated attempt to brush serious matters under the rug in the name of unity.
The church has proven itself unable or unwilling to protect children from within, and hostile to those that would, so I am an advocate for accountability. Forgive the sin, prosecute the sinner; no Bible verse needed.
That message was completely self-serving and an insult to the intelligent. Yes, a crock.
"You have a heart problem my friend."
Curb your dogma, fiend.
I am not on here to stir up trouble. I just think that if you can't worship hearing a song like that something is wrong. I too await the report. I will be at another church Sunday morning.
Oops, Freudian slip, friend.
Bellevue blog,
For now this is my last regular post. These issues are taking a toll on my health and my walk with the Lord. My blood pressure has been sky high for weeks. I apologize to all for some of my posts. I am angry and that is reflected in my posting on the blog. My anger is directed toward the leadership of Bellevue Baptist Church.
I am angry because they are hiding the truth and telling outright lies.
I am angry because they refuse honest answers to honest questions.
I am angry because of the contempt Steve Gaines holds you, his “adversaries.”
I am angry with the lack of integrity they have exhibited for the past year.
I am angry because a lot of deacons do know the truth and refuse to do anything about it.
I am angry because the men on the Communications Committee published and distributing lies.
I am angry because the men on the Communications Committee responded with “I don’t know” more times than not.
I am angry because Paul Williams is still a paid employee of Bellevue Baptist Church more than six months after the pastor learned of a significant “moral failure.”
I am angry because of the lack of concern for Chris Williams by the leadership of Bellevue Baptist Church.
I am angry the pastor does not take the issue of child molestation as seriously as he should.
I am angry the pastor has shown nothing but contempt for his sheep since the day he was hired as pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church.
I am angry because the pastor believes he is not accountable to anyone.
I am angry because the pastor continues to preach self-serving sermons.
I am angry because of the shabby treatment of Dr. Mike Spradlin by the leadership of Bellevue Baptist Church.
I am angry because Bellevue Baptist Church has no financial accountability to its membership and does not intend to ever be accountable.
I am angry because sin has been minimized by the leadership of Bellevue Baptist Church.
I am angry because Mark Sharpe was removed as a deacon with no input from the church.
I am particularly angry because the leadership of Bellevue Baptist Church knew Dr. Rogers was unaware of Paul Williams’ moral failure and to this day has not publicly cleared his name.
I am angry the pastor lied about his apology to Dr. Whitmire. Most of what has been said about Dr. Whitmire was a lie.
That is just a start. There are plenty of other reasons I am angry.
I may or may not read the blog. I don’t know about that yet. I am still with those of you holding the leadership accountable for their poor decisions and lies. I will not debate anyone or respond to other posts. At most I may write an occasional post to get something off my chest.
We must continue to fight for what is right. However, Bellevue, your church is no more. Steve Gaines and his supporters have managed a hostile takeover. Bellevue Baptist Church will never be the same.
I prefer Samba and Guaguanco. Outstanding production, though.
LOL. You are funny. As I said I will not get into the bad mouthing that some others are doing. Have a good day. Karen, I emailed you.
Hi AOG,
Why stop on one fact? What is obfuscation anyway?
It only make sense that the minister's son brought the issue to light, and that has also been indicated on this blog. Otherwise, it would have stayed a secret. What I want to know is, why after sitting on the truth for six month, what precipitated the Pastor spilling the beans?
David,
I agree. Something "aint" quite right.
Trollcates said...
Oops, Freudian slip, friend.
12:26 PM, January 22, 2007
:) - I was hoping that was the case.
Trollcates, it was really nice sitting with you - Randy and I enjoyed meeting with you and you are welcomed to sit with us next week. The announcement will be made Sunday night so - HORRORS! - you'll have to come to church twice in 1 day! :)
Let me know your plans.
Karen
i love my church,
You may have missed a previous request that I had sent requesting that you e-mail. I would appreciate your help if at all possible.
Thanks,
Tim Coggins
AOG, it would put me in the spot to know that SG did in-fact know exactly what happened in the meeting and what was said.
If did he in fact tell SG that he did commit child molestation, then I think that would speak alot more to me than not knowing what he confessed to, being it a "moral failure" or whatever the term is today.
Honestly, I would like PW to confess it to the church himself. And let me say this, I am not looking for any of the exact details of what happened, but I am curious if he told SG that he committed a moral failure or if he came out and said I am a child molester.
I apologize for the bluntness of this post.
obfuscation: perplex, muddle, cloud
ATM Machine,
If you look what's going in our Church today, you will know what the sermon will be about next Sunday. That is the pattern.
I think you need to stop going into the service with a "Steve Gaines is out to get us" mindset. Focus on the message instead of what is surrounding the church. You tell yourself that there is going to be a self-serving sermon before you even know anything and then you make it out to be one. How sad!
I remember one week here people were criticizing Gaines about one of his sermons by just viewing the notes prior to hearing him preach. These people were attacking Him for taking verses out of context to "self-serve", and etc. Then Sunday afternoon, what happens? These people come here apologizing saying it was one of the best sermon's that have ever heard SG preach. Don't be so quick to judge...
And - for your information - the title of this Sunday's sermon is: A New Beginning in Finances.
ace said...
And - for your information - the title of this Sunday's sermon is: A New Beginning in Finances.
I need that one! I just bought a house. In case y'all forgot! :)
karen (giddy at her new purchase)
Hey y'all,
Paul Williams has 2 children - let's not forget that. I'm not speculating, but it would make sense to include his other child in the investigation. David Brown, do you have any knowledge if the BBC or DCS is investigating that aspect?
Thanks! Karen
A top staffer told me that Chris Williams and 2 of his friends went to the pastor in December and said that in 2 hours, this story was hitting the website. So, Steve had to go public. Now the question is, why did they go tell him? To help Steve or hurt him? We don't know.
AOG,
I'm more excited that Ace said he'd come to my housewarming! No Mardi Gras masks allowed! :)
karen
"Don't be so quick to judge..."
Let not thy mouth call the kettle blacketh.
King Jimmy version
bothered,
Somebody posted last night about a current minister resigning this week. Do you have any information on that? Or anybody have that info?
karen
AOG,
I'm just pointing out the obvious hair-splitting over "facts", which the rabid insistence and desire for such facts, if satisfied, still would not change a single mind, or the dogged determination to defend the administration, if the discovery of the facts were an unquestioned indictment of the same.
REPLY: This is a great Trollcateism
Trollcates,
Could you translate this for me: )
I just know that it wasn't Jamie Fish. Karen, I replied to yoru mail.
I Love My Church...
Bless you sister/brother! You go take care of yourself and thank you for your contributions to this blog. The blog is not worth upping your blood pressure over.
karen
Karen,
I'm more excited that Ace said he'd come to my housewarming! No Mardi Gras masks allowed! :)
When did I say I was going to come? I don't remember saying I would. :) You will probably be waiting there for me with baseball bats.
Fuggetaboudit--that was the message.
I wonder if other Sapranos metaphors apply?
AOG,
you said "For the sake of argument here, let's suppose for a moment that you now have that fact in hand, and that fact is indeed, incestuous child molestation by PW. So where does that fact put you? "
This was not directed at me but if this were what transpired I would join your side in a second. The only condition would be if he told a story that a previous administration was aware and had helped him with counseling (true or untrue).
Telos,
I defer to this
"Truth-seekers, do not tie your shoelaces together before doing battle, rhetorically speaking, with visitors who are obviously not here as liaisons to reconciliation, but in order to introduce psychological warfare."
Ace - We had this exchange over on "It's Not About the Music"
ace said...
Karen,
We'll have cookies and invite ace! He wants to have a cookie social so we can all be friends again and that seems like a good a time as any, huh?
Sweetness! I'll be there.
10:38 PM, January 19, 2007
Trollcates,
Here is a piece from my archives...
Dont worry - Be Happy!
AOG,
T is intrinsically different - he makes me laugh as well...
He and I differ on Heaven..
AOG,
Where is our starting point?
Glorifying God
Matthew 18
Regenerate Church
AOG,
OK - did you indirectly answer your own question?
How does it follow as it relates to BBC...
Do we glorify God when we insist on Biblical Standards?
Karen,
You've got multiple e-mails.
There is a lot of speculating on exactly what Gaines was told back in June and again in Nov or Dec. If it were not pedophilia, then one would think, PW would be shouting it from the rooftops in order to protect the reputation of his son.
For the sake of arguement, lets say Gaines was originally told by PW of a 'moral failure/sin' such as adultry or something. He still should have been fired. Even if it were repented of, etc. Simply because he is a minister. Then it should have been confessed to the whole church because he is a minister.
Now, in Dec, Gaines learns something very different and puts PW on administrative leave. Still, you have the original problem that Gaines did not follow scripture from the very beginning and we are starting to see why it is soooo important to do so. There are reasons for us to follow scriptural commands.
Yet, Gaines compounds the problem again by not putting this in front of the church with total openess.
The guy just does not follow scripture. When you add to this the other 'back room' secret dealings, the treatment of dissenters, you have a serious problem at that church.
My view is that Gaines will win. He is fighting with 'worldly' weapons. And he is able to fight ignorning scripture except those verses out of context that support his wrong position. And lots of people follow that. I would not be surprised if you all don't see some Clintonesque tears coming soon.
Those who will do what it takes to win at all costs, ususally do...until Jesus returns.
If Gaines were truly a godly man, he would step down now. But where can he go and make the kind of money he makes now paid by your tithe dollars?
AOG,
OK - Let me get this one over the plate...
Then why are some referred to as dissenters.
Memphis said...
There is still one fact I would like to know.
What exactly did PW confess to? "moral failures", "sins against the family" is pretty broad.
12:05 PM, January 22, 2007
My question: Does anyone have facts to answer Memphis' question from 12:05 without speculation or taking off on the same old paths of argument about what you think the "real issues" are? I sort of thought his question sounded legitimate, and although he went on later and explained why he felt that information was germane to the whole picture, it's a little disrespectful to once again not even let his question stand with its own dignity so he can then expound on his thinking. Memphis is very rarely, if ever, argumentative and I think should have the respect of everyone on this board for not only his Christlike attitude but the openness and clarity of his thinking. He can't type worth a drop of doe snot, but that's beside the point.
Seriously, can we respect each other enough to allow perhaps some different trains of thought to leave the station?
esther said:
"Then it should have been confessed to the whole church because he is a minister. "
this has not always been the policy- there have been many ministers/staffer who have left or been terminated without being required to do this. You cannot force someone to confess before the the church. The one occasion I can think of that this happened (Confession before the church)was because that minister desired to do so.
Esther said,
My view is that Gaines will win. He is fighting with 'worldly' weapons. And he is able to fight ignorning scripture except those verses out of context that support his wrong position. And lots of people follow that. I would not be surprised if you all don't see some Clintonesque tears coming soon.
How can someone win if they are fighting with worldly weapons? "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world." 1 John 4:4 (KJV)
And Esther, please help me out here in case I've missed something. What exactly is the dog you have in this hunt?
NBBCOF,
Emails from you? I didn't get any from you, but I'll look again.
karen
From the Bellevue website-
Last Updated: January 22, 2007, 2:02 p.m.
Report from the Personnel Committee
Bellevue Baptist Church
January 22, 2007
Bellevue’s Investigative Committee presented its report and recommendations regarding the moral failure of a Bellevue minister to the Personnel Committee on January 20.
On Sunday, January 21, the Personnel Committee reviewed the report and voted to terminate Paul Williams’ employment at Bellevue effective Monday, January 22.
The Personnel Committee will present a full report and its recommendations to the church on Sunday, January 28, following the 6:30 p.m. evening Worship Service.
I love the fact that the company men here that condone the lack of transparency from the church leadership are the very people who want unexpergated and documentable evidence from those commenting.
Again, they are are not liaisons to reconciliation or interested in discourse, but perveyors of flak. Don't be injured in the process.
AOG, yes, you did answer him with a hypothetical. But no one has answered with any facts -- that was my point.
And I agree with you about DCS investigations having to be based on grounded suspicions, except, of course, in the face of public outcry. I believe the full-court press in the media and via the SB site, etc., as having accomplished just that. Here's another couple of hypothetical questions: If this turns out to be something besides what is being predicted by those who want Bro. Steve to resign, be arrested, etc., has it occurred to anyone that it is mainly church members who will be responsible for having dragged BBC through the mud and not our leadership? Was that not a huge chance to take?
I just got an Action News 5
Bellevue terminates accused minister
The embattled minister at the center of a nationwide scandal has been terminated by Bellevue Baptist Church, according to a news release issued this afternoon.
According to the statement, the investigative committee formed to explore sexual abuse claims made against a longtime minister presented its report and recommendations to the Church's personnel committee yeseterday. The committee then decided to terminate that minister today.
A full report is still expected about the minister's "moral failures" at next Sunday's evening worship service.
Stay tuned to WMCTV.COM and Action News 5 for the very latest on this developing story.
Tim,
You have email! And it's in response to the one you sent me and it's important.
karen
AOG,
You are right. DCS does not investigate adultery,they investigate matters pertaining to children. Also, Assistant D.A. confirmed the investigation in an interview with the Commericial Appeal. The C.A. articles quotes his comments related to child abuse. Those comments were in the Wendi Thomas article about child molestation. Based on all of that alone it is reasonable to assume child molestation is being investigated.
Whether it is child molestation or adultery, he is unfit to serve as a minister at BBC. He was just as unfit in June.
What if PW only admitted in June that his "moral failure" was jay walking, won't y'all have egg on your face? Ngah!
WTB,
Check your yahoo account in 2 minutes. karen
MJM, thank you for the kind I words, I do appreciate it. I feel I have alot to live up to now:) and I am working on my typing; however, sometimes the fingers do not move as fast as the old brain!!!
AOG, I am sorry if I misundderstood your question with my answer. I do think it is reasonable to believe that is why DCS is investigating, since it is clear that that is what they do.
I am not sure whether or not the investigation by DCS will have as much bearing on the whole SG part of my post, if we did not know what was exactly said to SG.
In my mind the two are seperate. DCS will do their part to the best of their ability I am sure. But do you not agree that it does matter what PW actually said to SG in this meeting?
JMHO (finally get to use that!)
NBBCOF,
I still haven't received any emails from you today.
karen
I bet some people will get excited when they read the story on the news. The picture is of SG and his wife with the headline.
I had to double take to make sure they weren't talking about SG.
Trollcates said...
I love the fact that the company men here that condone the lack of transparency from the church leadership are the very people who want unexpergated and documentable evidence from those commenting.
Again, they are are not liaisons to reconciliation or interested in discourse, but perveyors of flak. Don't be injured in the process.
Charlie Fox said...
Bloggers,
ACE, Deacon 4545 and others OFTEN post for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, their sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding them, they will continue to play their game. If you ignore them, then they will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into their hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking their BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
Trollcates,
Did we say the same thing ??? LOL
Charlie Fox, yous da man!
Wanted to make sure this wasn't missed - I received it from Action News 5 via email today - 1/22/07
Bellevue terminates accused minister
The embattled minister at the center of a nationwide scandal has been terminated by Bellevue Baptist Church, according to a news release issued this afternoon.
According to the statement, the investigative committee formed to explore sexual abuse claims made against a longtime minister presented its report and recommendations to the Church's personnel committee yeseterday. The committee then decided to terminate that minister today.
A full report is still expected about the minister's "moral failures" at next Sunday's evening worship service.
Stay tuned to WMCTV.COM and Action News 5 for the very latest on this developing story.
Trollcates,
Just wanted to be sure!!! LOL
memphis said...
I bet some people will get excited when they read the story on the news. The picture is of SG and his wife with the headline.
Response: I didn't a picture with my email, but it is on wmctv.com. It's irresponsible for them to put the Gaines picture up there. Better to have no picture at all.
karen
Karen I agree with you on that!
AOG, it's a legitimate question because it was asked. It's also legitimate because there are some folks who post here who have claimed to know what was said. I think Memphis' question was a reasonable attempt to see if anyone could post factually in response. If no one can, that's fine. I'm not looking for an argument.
"I'm not looking for an argument."
We know; it's to indroduce flak.
Maybe,
Do you shave with Ockham's razor?
Just say'n.
And how, exactly, am I introducing flak? By asking that we be fair?
AOG, I did reply to your post to me in case you missed it.
No, trollcates, it's Lady Schick for me. However, I don't believe in assuming, 'cause we all know what ends up happening with that ...
"Fair" is the innocent child, and people like "Beth," not knowing they were being victimized a second time.
I just called WMCTV to let them know their headline is misleading. The picture of Steve Gaines and Donna next to the headline leads one to believe Steve Gaines was terminated. I told the TV station Paul Williams was terminate and they are going to correct it.
It's a shame someone else had to make the decision Steve Gaines should have made in June to terminate Paul Williams. Nobody I know wants to see Steve Gaines arrested like suggested by maybejustmaybe. What we want is for Steve Gaines to be honest, open, and accuntable for his actions. His poor decision making is taking Bellevue through the mud. How much do we have to endure before the leadership asks Steve to resign?
westtnbarrister said...
Memphis,
You were addressing AOG, but I want to weigh in. I agree consideration must be given to what PW said to SG in June. However, it was SG's job to protect the church. He had the duty to make sure he had the whole story before making his decision on how to proceed. After all he left PW in a position where he could counsel child molestation and rape victims. I cannot say what SG did or did not do to get the whole story.
SG's conduct in June followed one of three possibililties:
1. SG knew what the sin was in June, but decided it was "under the blood" and did nothing.
2. SG only spoke with PW, who told him half the story. SG accepted his word for it and never tried to get the whole story by talking to the others (Chris Williams, PW's wife, PW's daughter)involved. SG believed the sin admitted to was insufficient grounds for dismissal.
3. SG had part of the story and he did investigate by talking to to others and they backed up PW's story. SG believed he had the whole story and decided the sin admitted to was insufficient grounds for dismissal. Those he spoke with in June have since changed their story.
Is there another scenario that makes sense?
Someone asked what we thought of this past Sunday's service. Here's my humble opinion on that and a few other things.
The scriptural standard is clear and for me this is where the pastor/teacher/leader being above reproach makes a difference (I Tim and Titus). And frankly, you and I and anyone on the platform should adhere to the same standard. It's really a shame that we look at “being above reproach” as a reference for someone else. Don't all Christians represent God. Being above reproach is really a low standard if we call ourselves by His name. Don't you think? (Rom. 8)
Notice. We are not expected to be perfect but our imperfections should not be significant. Our list of offenses to God and man should be short and small; and we must constantly do our part to keep them so. None of us should bring shame, because of our selfish actions, on Christ's name. (Acts 5, 2 Cor 4)
Forgiving an offender does not return the offender back into a position of being above reproach. Reproach by definition surrounds the offender with a reasonable and lingering concern. And as others have noted, neither does forgiveness remove consequences (which, with public awareness, brings even more reproach). (Gal. 6)
All kinds of things suffer as a result of our sin (reproach): relationships, opportunities, perceived competence, and trust to name a few. In some cases they can never be resurrected. I remember when I was a boy listening to Dr. Rogers downtown, he said, “God can't unscramble eggs”. That put things in a different light for me. Life is full of choices. We, and those around us, will have to live with some measure of death when we sin against God or fail to apply His Word. (Gen 2-3, James 1)
Sunday's sermon was a good general reminder to forgive quickly, let it go and to pray for the offender. But I did have a hard time hearing it through all the static of our significant and ongoing problems in leadership. My heart goes out to the Williams family and especially the one who was personally violated. I'm praying for you all. I'm praying for Steve Gaines too.
By the way, I do not have an aversion to sermons being used to influence my thought or actions. That is the point of them. The catch is when they are used to influence people to think wrongly and take wrong action. Even if it's action without God's blessing or direction. We must know the whole council of God for ourselves. We must be mindful of error and opinion. And we must remember that Satan will twist and present only partial truth to in order to lead us astray. I don't think he complicates it much. He knows we are simple-minded and easily influenced. We must be on guard and able to recognize error and dark agendas. (I Thes. 5, II Tim 4, I Pet 1, 4 & 5)
The congregational music set seemed to flow well and Zack sung his song well. As we sing or sing along, I hope that we are all careful to walk humbly before God and worship Him out of love, adoration, gratitude, exuberance and a walk of integrity. Whatever their form, performances in worship have no place and are at best a distraction for me. (Eph 4, Phil 2, Col 3, Rom 8)
You know it's so reassuring to have a copy of scripture at my fingertips. God doesn't contradict Himself. We have a wonderful gift, written in our language and easy enough for a child to understand. God is so good and I'm sure He expects us to use rightly what He has given and entrusted to us. (II Tim 2)
Let's love one another - the body and bride of Christ. Let's major on the majors and if we ever get through that list we can work our way down. (John 13:34, I John 2)
Christ came to redeem us. His rich, red blood dripped from His beaten body. He willingly gave of Himself so that you and I, contained in these earthen vessels, could be restored to His presence and fellowship. (Eph. 2, I Cor 1, I John 14-15, Rom 6)
Truly may we love one another and please Him in all things.
Andrew
BELLEVUE TERMINATES ACCUSED MINISTER!!!!!
Folks,
While the PC has done the right thing, now is NOT a time for HIGH 5s, but a time for DEEP SERIOUS PRAYER for the Williams family. There should be NO JOY and ELATION over this correct decision. This particular problem is now solely in the hands of the legal authorities. Now it's time to FOCUS on the many remaining problems that BBC faces. It is time to open eyes and hearts and seek HIS direction in this mess. HE WILL show the way. HE WILL lead HIS PEOPLE out of the DESERT. HE DOES take care of his children.
Pedophilia by Egyptians against one or more of the Hebrew slaves
Is this true?
Facts:
All of Egypt (except the pagan priests) became slaves to the government.
The Israelites were slaves in Egypt. It was "abhorrent" for the Egyptians to break bread with the Hebrews. (Did this have anything to do with Hagar, an Egyptian, being sent away from the patriarchs?)
Not only were the Hebrews slaves, but there was prejudicial bias against them.
What could a slave do if they were mistreated? There were no laws to protect them. There was no media except the state- and priest- controlled scribes.
We know that there was such abuse that at the end baby boys were being thrown "to the crocodiles" in "Ole Man River," down by the pyramid.
We also see that when God took his children out of Egypt it was done with a mighty vengance. The people were even --happily--making financial settlements to see the slaves leave. ("plundered").
I am constantly amazed at people who say the Bible just is not relevant to life in modern times in America.
The universal condition of the depravity of man never changes.
Kind reader, consider: what is the state of your heart?
The one who created you knows your heart and every shadow within.
Have you made Jesus your savior? There is no other name given under Heaven by which you may be saved and have the unbreakable promise of eternal life in Heaven. You can not do it without him.
Any questions? Please get them settled today.
(offline)
swtt said...
I just called WMCTV to let them know their headline is misleading. The picture of Steve Gaines and Donna next to the headline leads one to believe Steve Gaines was terminated. I told the TV station Paul Williams was terminate and they are going to correct it.
It looks like they replaced it with a stock photo of BBC. Good for them and thanks for pointing that out to them.
WMC Home
Story
"I do not have an aversion to sermons being used to influence my thought or actions. That is the point of them."
Yes, but never to manipulate thoughts or actions--it creeped me out.
SWTT,
Thank you for doing that. I agree the headline was misleading.
Also, I do not know anyone, even those staunchly opposed to Steve Gaines as pastor, who want to see him arrested or indicted. There is a vast difference between seeking openness and accountability from the Bellevue leaders and longing to see the pastor arrested. That would be horrible for everyone in our church to witness.
BTW/FWIW -- I am grateful that PW is no longer on staff at BBC. Thank you, Lord.
Karen,
I will only be at your party if the other people sign a disclaimer saying they will keep their hands off Ace and will not harm him physically OR emotionally.
Remember, I am very fragile.
Swtt,
I just called WMCTV to let them know their headline is misleading. The picture of Steve Gaines and Donna next to the headline leads one to believe Steve Gaines was terminated. I told the TV station Paul Williams was terminate and they are going to correct it.
Thanks for doing this.
His poor decision making is taking Bellevue through the mud. How much do we have to endure before the leadership asks Steve to resign?
A lot, because he doesn't done anything worthy of a resignation or termination.
Ezekial,
Now, pray tell where is Barnhill???? Why are you having to do his work?
It was a press release was it not?
Please tell me you're kidding. First of all, his name is Barnwell.
Next, BBC is not responsible for sending the picture with the press release...often the news agency gets one to fit the story. If you were serious with your comment, then I think that's really sad. I'm sure if Barnwell saw it before swtt did then he would have called to get the misleading picture off the website.
So, I must have missed some information--is there some backpeddling about what the pastor knew in June?
4545,
Serious question? What did some of you think about Dr. Gaines sermon on Forgiveness yesterday? How does it apply to the issues at hand and this blog and our lives?
I think from that sermon we could all be willing to forgive others for their transgressions against us. And I'm including myself too.
How it applies to this blog...I think we need to forgive Gaines for all that he's requested forgiveness for and quit bringing every single thing he's asked forgiveness for up every few hours or so. Who are we do otherwise? Christ died on the cross for ALL of our sins/mistakes past and present...can't we forgive Steve for 3 or 4...if even that many?
There are some on here that have said all along that Dr. Gaines and Bellevue would not fire PW no matter what and went into great detail to paint a false picture.
You were wrong.
What do you have to say?
Well said Ace!
Why not enlighten us, prey tell?
It had everything to do with situation, and the Pastor knew it. Wish we could all have our own personal soap box backed up with those kind of production values.
Belt one out for us, Charlie Fox!
4545 said...
Serious question? What did some of you think about Dr. Gaines sermon on Forgiveness yesterday? How does it apply to the issues at hand and this blog and our lives?
Reply:
The same Bible that teaches us to forgive sin, teaches us that there are CONQUENCES to pay for those sins.
4545,
I was just about to post that very same type of post but you beat me to it. Again, from last Sunday's message...I think the people who posted that need to ask Gaines for their forgiveness and apologize. The Bible commands us to.
swtt, I want to also thank you for calling the station.
Charlie,
Do you go to BBC or GBC?
He's forgiven; let us lovingly help him pack.
trollcates said- So, I must have missed some information--is there some backpeddling about what the pastor knew in June?
REPLY- Backpeddling? So you or others have known all along what Dr. Gaines was told? You were in his office?
There is going to be a great deal of backpeddling on MANY issues on the blog over the next few weeks/months.
Trollcates,
He's forgiven; let us lovingly help him pack.
It doesn't sound like you forgave him to me with that second statement.
And, yes, I know you're not a Christian so you may not know how forgiveness works in our minds. But, wait...you heard the sermon yesterday, right? Is that what you got out of it?
Nice dodge, Mr FLAK. I mean backpeddling from what the Pastor admitted from the pulpit in December about the discovery in June.
How about just answer the question?
ACE,
Zero tolerance for lying from the pulpit. This is a most Holy Place. I am lost over the glossing over of this transgression.
If he had just touched the Ark of the Covenant he would be dead.
David,
Why are you so defensive re: Jim Barnwell? Can you not admit he made a mistake?
Huh? Again, a picture isn't sent with the press release...that is the news stations job to get. Jim didn't make a mistake, so drop it.
Should SWTT not be praised for acting so quick on this issue?
I'm not sure if he should be "praised" but I did thank him.
You would have so much more credibility (IMHO) if you would admit the wrongdoing.
No wrongdoing was done, therefore I can't admit one. Sorry.
If any of these issues doesn't bother you, just say they don't bother you but your justification of every move (however poor) by the leadership ruins your credibility.
Unless you have a copy of the press release in your hand and can prove that the picture was sent with it, you need to get your facts straight and hush. Again, no wrongdoing was done. But as usual, you guys have to find something or someone to attack in every situation. I think that's sad...but hey, that's just me!
How it applies to this blog...I think we need to forgive Gaines for all that he's requested forgiveness for and quit bringing every single thing he's asked forgiveness for up every few hours or so. Who are we do otherwise? Christ died on the cross for ALL of our sins/mistakes past and present...can't we forgive Steve for 3 or 4...if even that many?
The gospel of Matthew (18:21-35) says to forgive forgive people 70 times 7 (unlimited forgiveness). In verse 27 of the parable the master forgave the servant ten thousand talents (huge debt) and let him go. It says nothing about the master restoring him to his previous position. I think it would be Biblical to forgive Dr. Gains and let him go also.
Telos,
Zero tolerance for lying from the pulpit. This is a most Holy Place. I am lost over the glossing over of this transgression.
And what exactly are the lies you're referring to? Please enlighten me.
westtn,
While is it certainly possible that any one of those three happened, I can't say which of your theories is right or wrong.
Plus I feel like you are trying to trap me in an answer....I have dealt with lawyers before! lol
Yes, you are correct, non-Christians don't know jack about forgiveness. It's not like it's universal or anything--so please look down your pointy nose at me. It's the Christian thing to do.
You glad BBC fire PW? Oh, you must not have forgiven him.
Bin Wondering,
I think it would be Biblical to forgive Dr. Gains and let him go also.
And that's your opinion. You are welcome to yours and I am welcome to mine....in which I would have to say I disagree with you for the reasons I have been posting for the past several months.
Trollcates,
Yes, you are correct, non-Christians don't know jack about forgiveness.
I never said that. Please don't put words in my mouth.
It's not like it's universal or anything--so please look down your pointy nose at me. It's the Christian thing to do.
There is a difference between the world's view of forgiveness and the Christian's way of viewing it.
Cut and paste the other parts and reply, Mr FLAK.
My dear brothers and sisters: I want to express my thanks to the Personnel Committee. They took one huge step today in healing Beelevue's church family.
Yes, please be in prayer for the Willams family too. Lift them up to the Lord and ask HE care and comfort them.
I said this yesterday, I do not want to see Dr. Gaines charged or arrested. I do want to see him be truthful and admit he made a major mistake in not reporting it in June. I want him to urge people that anytime they suspect child abuse, they report and don't do as he did. That is big thing to ask but you all know that is a major step in being transparent.
And I will say this, if Dr. Gaines had used that book, called the Word of God in June; he would not be having to use the other book, the checkbook in January.
As for this argument of whether Dr. Gaines should resign, that is not my argument and please don't try to drag me into it. That is something between him and the Bellevue family.
One thing we can all agree on. No one wins in this matter. This beloved church has been ripped apart because of it. But we all have been made more aware of the evils of this horrible sin and crime. We must be more alert in protecting our children.
Please continue to be in prayer for the Commmittee and others involved in this and that includes Dr. Gaines. Now is not the time to hate. I love you all and thanks again for your support.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis.
I don't have time today but could somebody please call WMCTV5 back and tell them to put Paul Williams' name in that story? It never says he is the one terminated. People will definitely get confused. I know my wife was she thought Gaines had been terminated.
Trollcates, I have a question for you, and it is just a question.
I understand you have as much a right to be here as anybody else, but if you do not agree with our beliefs, and you do not support our church, what exactly do you get out of this blog?
I am trying to figure this out, do you really care about BBC or are you just wanting to see what happens.
No, there's a difference between the way the company men and the truth-seekers view forgiveness. Get you categories right.
Memphis,
I cannot say which of those three scenarios is correct either. Lawyers are tricky sometimes, but I am just using common sense and logic to try to narrow the field of possibilities. No tricks today.
ACE,
This blog is full of examples and the archives are full of sermons designed to deflect criticisms of them.
I will just go back to the fence. His words distorted the truth. Keep in mind whose pulpit he stands behind and whose reputation he was protecting.
We need to have more reverance for God. I respect your love for Pastor Gaines - but many of his actions do not Glorify God.
I am sorry - it may seem trivial to you, but truth from the pulpit is paramount to me.
My dear 4545: You are asking questions again but have you forgotten our discussion a few days ago? You are asking others to apologize yet you steadfastly refuse to do it according to Scripture. Why?
Let's start with you and then I will help you demand others do it.
Ezekial,
Surely you're joking. You obviously don't know how press releases work, and etc. Go look at the one Channel 5 has...I believe their address is 1600 Union Avenue...there is no picture. It is up to WMC-TV and EVERY other channel to gather the pictures and put the story together.
Get your facts straight and quit acting like everything at Bellevue is corrupted and bad...because when you do that, you're only making yourself look silly.
News channel 3 says Paul Williams is fired...
Child molestation is not a church issue, a Bellevue issue, or a Christian issue; it is a matter of deep concern for anyone of concience in the community. Especially when the Christians drop the ball, are hostile to that segment seeking accountability and then try to selfishly save their own posteriors.
It's discusting.
For further context, you may read my prior postings.
And no, I cannot prove I've been a victim of a pedophile--should I go then?
Dear JU, most all media outlets will not use a abuser, victims name unless they have been charged or a lawsuit has been filed. That is just they way the operate.
Anyway what difference does it make? Really. Think about this dear victim. How do you think he would feel hearing his father's name all over the airways? This beautiful church family needs to heal. I pray that after Sunday night, it can begin to do that.
To the board:
One thing that must also be considered in the PW issue is the question of who initiated the revue of safety and security procedures in the Childrens department this summer and what was the impetus for this. I sicerely hope that this will be addressed in the Sunday night meeting.
Telos,
I will just go back to the fence. His words distorted the truth. Keep in mind whose pulpit he stands behind and whose reputation he was protecting.
Do me a favor and go look at http://www.savingbellevue.com/Fence/fence_climbing.htm
There are 7 pictures. 6 showing a HUGE gate/fence. When this news first came out, the only pictures up were of the humongous gate. Compared to the misleading pics, yes, it was "itty-bitty"
Thanks SWTT for calling the station. As I stated before, I thought it irresponsible for them to associate Steve Gaines picture with that story - especially since they don't mention Paul Williams name with the story.
Karen
2 things:
1. Sin does have consequences, but it is not always up to us to decide what they are. Not saying we shouldn't SOMETIMES have control over that, but sometimes we don't. Sometimes it is between the individual and God.
2. Does anyone know if any of the women (or men) that were counseled by PW complained to BBC about his counseling tactics or questions prior to this information being revealed?
In my last post, I am not necessarily even addressing the issues at hand with that first point, but I keep hearing about how sin has consequences, and I thought I would mention that.
David- For the LAST time. I said I was sorry.
I am sorry and please forgive me.
Karen, I'm hurt ... you've invited Ace to your party, but you haven't invited me! Do I need to promise to bring a chai latte, or cookies, or what?
"Sin does have consequences, but it is not always up to us to decide what they are. Not saying we shouldn't SOMETIMES have control over that, but sometimes we don't. Sometimes it is between the individual and God."
~bepainful
What poop!
I certainly forgive Steve Gaines for not firing Paul Williams in June of 2006. After the confession of Paul Williams to Steve Gaines, why the decision was not made doesn’t matter now. It's time to forgive, move on and start a new search committee to replace Steve Gaines. The official report that will follow is irrelevant. Can we stop talkng about the other things Steve Gaines has done and move on?
ace said...
Telos,
I will just go back to the fence. His words distorted the truth. Keep in mind whose pulpit he stands behind and whose reputation he was protecting.
Do me a favor and go look at http://www.savingbellevue.com/Fence/fence_climbing.htm
There are 7 pictures. 6 showing a HUGE gate/fence. When this news first came out, the only pictures up were of the humongous gate. Compared to the misleading pics, yes, it was "itty-bitty"
REPLY:
OK - Jim Haywood and Pastor Gaines have compromised their right to stand behind the pulpit. I love them both. I pray for them. I forgive them.
Jesus was whipped and scourged. Get your head out of modern culture and place it back in the word. I forgive, but dont place the worlds ways behind the pulpit.
You all at BBC might have seen this already, but did you read the updated report at Bellevue's website it said this: "On Sunday, January 21, the Personnel Committee reviewed the report and voted to terminate Paul Williams’ employment at Bellevue effective Monday, January 22".
so that is atleast part of the 5pm news.
Telos,
I still disagree. And I'll leave it at that.
Is the word "consequences" in the Bible? And what does it mean when we say sin is "washed away?"
Another thought (sorry I have just been catching up):
Trollcates, I believe you were the one who mentioned this- forgive me if I am wrong. The reason so many of the pro-SG side ask for (or demand) proof and evidence and substantiation from the other side is because that is what they are asking for from the church. They want total disclosure. We want them to practice what they preach.
"I still disagree. And I'll leave it at that."
Of course you will--now would you just leave, please?
Dear 4545: THANK YOU MY BROTHER/ SISTER!! I am shouting and I am proud of you. You have just helped one wounded sister. You have no idea how much that means. I am very serious. Once again thank you.
ACE,
Blessings Brother! I hope to meet you some day.
ace said...
Karen,
I will only be at your party if the other people sign a disclaimer saying they will keep their hands off Ace and will not harm him physically OR emotionally.
Remember, I am very fragile
Reply:
Accompanied by the non-diclosure statment required to not disclose your true identity? :)
You ain't that fragile - you won't crumble like a cookie, will you? You're a tough cookie! I crack myself up, don't I? Who says anybody from this blog is invited? I never said that! :) They probably will, but I'm trying to get to you come! You don't have to come to the housewarming - I'm having a box emptying party on Feb 2! Super Bowl Sunday!
karen
Trollcates,
Of course you will--now would you just leave, please?
What is your problem with me? I have never told anyone to leave and I wish people would treat me in the same way. You don't need to treat me like you're better than me. If you don't like me, I'm sorry, but I'm not going anywhere. If you've had enough of Ace, there is a cool little 'X' and the top right portion of your window. Click on that and I'll disappear.
In the future, I would appreciate you being more mature and respecting those who you disagree with.
I have no idea, AOG, but I'm currently doing a personal study on times when the consequences of sin are mitigated by God or by others. I will post the results of that when I'm done. It's very enlightening. Sometimes God chooses to consequence sin and sometimes -- by His grace -- he chooses not to do so.
Dear brothers and sisters: Let me suggest there will two reports coming out this weekend.
Before you are start in on me wanting to know; who, what, where, when. I am not going to say anymore about it than what you have seen here. I just ask you wait and be in prayer.
As some have suggested there are two sides of this story. You will hear one Sunday night and the other soon. You can then decide which one is the TRUTH.
I am not playing games with anyone on here. When you hear this report and its source you will know what I am talking about.
I ask once again to PLEASE be in prayer for the Committee.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
I'm sorry, but equivalences are frequently made between this blog, a free-of-charge forum populated by people--alienated, bullied and dispossessed for seeking accountabilty from their church--and their antagonists, with a cabal of powerful leaders with bottomless resources for secrecy, manipulative stagecraft, and legal protection.
I don't wish to offend anyones faith, but perhaps such failures of logic and grasping at straws could be avoided by cracking open some literature other than the Bible.
It makes you look stupid and desperate.
In the meantime, a passage with perhaps some application to current events.
If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent -- not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven -- if there was anything to forgive -- I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
2 Cor. 2:5-11
Ace,
For someone so antagonistic, you sure are a crybaby.Refer to my prior post on sarcasm.
4545 said...
Serious question? What did some of you think about Dr. Gaines sermon on Forgiveness yesterday? How does it apply to the issues at hand and this blog and our lives?
Reply: I asked yesterday for clarification about a statement Dr. Gaines made in his sermon. At 9:30, he stated that if someone offends you, but the person who offended you doesn't know they offended you, you should not go to them and say you've forgiven them for the offense. He said that doing that would open new problems. I asked a bunch of questions about this yesterday and memphis or maybe (you look so much alike! LOL) Steve expounded on this point at 11:00 and then I understood better what the point was. But my problem is this: What if I didn't have the blog to go to to clarify or if I wasn't a Christian and didn't have any one to run that by? I know there is no way for a preacher to preach 2 sermons verbatim, but I do feel that if a pastor is going to put a directive out there like this one, that the same examples and explanation should be used for both congrgations. Last night, Esther posted about different types or levels of forgiveness. It was brought to my attention that forgiveness is a two sided coin and the sermon yesterday only revealed one side.
karen
NASS/NBBCOF,
I trust that you will take care of trollcates' 4:34 PM, January 22, 2007 post.
I'm off to do something more productive than post here...have fun, folks!
Trollcates said...
... I don't wish to offend anyones faith, but perhaps such failures of logic and grasping at straws could be avoided by cracking open some literature other than the Bible.
It makes you look stupid and desperate.
4:31 PM, January 22, 2007
Brothers and sisters in Christ, can someone please tell me why we should continue to give this person and his thoughts any kind of audience when discussing issues regarding the Lord's church? You see what he thinks of us and of God's Word. This is blasphemy and his words have no business influencing any of our thoughts, regardless of which "side" of any size fence we are on. JMHO
Be Patient said... 2. Does anyone know if any of the women (or men) that were counseled by PW complained to BBC about his counseling tactics or questions prior to this information being revealed? Jamie Fish and Mark Bowman stand with Paul Williams and so does security.
Let me tell you . I have never seen any care from anyone at BBC. and Even thought Paul Williams is fired I do not believe they have changed, I heard nothing yet to this day, and I don't really expect to.
Mean mean uncaring BBC laymen. Someone please tell them don't you know you should be kind to one another this the L-RD's will.
Trollcates,
One of your more recent posts lacks the virtue you profess to achieve.
AOG -- once again, respect, please. I said I would post when I'm finished studying. I more than "get it" -- I just don't agree with you about consequences being an "always" thing. Please stop trying to push me into an argument. I am really trying to be gracious with you but you are a bully.
It's blasphemy to suggest that someone should read something besides the Bible?
Oi! But what the Pastor did gets a slap on the hand from you folks.
Yeah, makes me want to sit next to you in church.
Oh, and pedophilia is not a church issue, especially after the church failed to protect its children.
Ok, so there are no more "hurt feelingss" - everyone I've talked to on this blog can come to the Feb. 2nd box unpacking party at Karen's new cool house!
Maybe, are you smiling? :)
karen (trying to explain to her hubby that I didn't just invite the whole world!)
Maybejustmaybe,
Could your real name possibly be Karen? You word everything exactly like a past work acquaintance. There just aren't that many people out there who know how to do it quite like you! You also are always trying to find the middle or common ground with us which I find admirable.
Karen,
:-) :-) :-)
mjm
Telos,
I get angry too and I should take Charlie's advice by not responding to flak.
trollcates,
People can read other literature, but to suggest they lack something for trying to find the answer in the Bible is dead wrong.
I have great sorrow for the things have occured to you in your life time. Many have reached out and have accepted you as one of God's creatures. You have been shown love.
Please show the respect for our beliefs as the majority has shown respect for you.
No, Dee, my name is not Karen. But thank you for what sounded like a compliment! I am truly trying to find middle ground.
AOG, the answer to whether the word "consequences" is in the Bible is a simple "no."
Now was that so hard?
MJM,
Is that a totem pole?
Trollcates,
Peace - email me and we will get together. I am already 20 minutes late dinner.
"Accountable" is in the bible, no?
"Common sense" is not, so you may check it at the door.
trollcates,
Please stop being antagonistic. Did you have a bad day or something? Being ugly to ace or 4545 or anyone doesn't further your cause for which you've come to the blog. Let's all be nice!
karen
Fox News 13 just had the BBC report - mentioned Paul Williams name and showed his picture. David Coombs was interviewed. They said no other victims were discovered in the investigation and Steve Gaines will stay on as pastor. They said the report will be given to the church Sunday night. They also said they would report more at 9:00 pm.
karen
Maybejustmaybe,
Yes, my statement to you was meant as a compliment but only because it was the truth. The person you reminded me of was also constantly trying to work with other employees to ameliorate difficult situations.
Dee
Let me ask then, can anyone think of any examples from the Bible where the consequences were placed upon men for their sins by other men other than the consequences of law.
Telos,
I think that this parsing of what words are in the Bible as a basis for their rhetorical substance to the issue at hand is a ridiculous exercise, and I make a careful distinction between the beloved text and those who use it miserly for their own selfish purposes. That is true blasphemy, in my opinion.
Furthermore, I have contributed many heartfelt and loving comments to this blog, most of which fall on deaf ears; and to wit, that is the second person to request that I be booted.
I remain, my reluctant friends, at your service. I am the watcher, as I said, and I'll watch your backs.
Karen and everyone,
Please forgive my poor choice of words regarding the Bible--I wasn't disrespecting it or you, so much as its misuse.
I will be more more measured in my posts.
Take the issue of the word "consequences" not occuring in the Bible. What is logical conclusion to be drawn from this fact?
A rose by any other name still bears its thorns.
Bepatient said...
Let me ask then, can anyone think of any examples from the Bible where the consequences were placed upon men for their sins by other men other than the consequences of law.
Reply:
There are consequences taken by God that are not defined by law. There are also consequences defined by Paul that are also defined by law. I am not sure that your question is not worded as a double-bind.
Are there Biblical consequences that are not Biblically defined? That is what I am understanding your question to be. Perhaps you could elaborate what you are asking for my benefit.
Thanks,
Tim
I simply mean, that in all the examples of consequences mentioned previously, they were consequences from God. Not consequences that human beings decided on (with exception of the legal ramifications when a sin is also a broken law).
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