With 400 comments in a little over 48 hours, the last deacon loyalty pledge thread was getting too long and needed to be begun anew. So here's the latest thread.
Remember there are other threads with topics more appropriate for some of the comments that were left in the previous thread.
And please, while it shouldn't be necessary to repeat this, try to be civil and respectful in your comments.
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49 comments:
Ezekiel,
My apologies, but I have to admit that I've become a little slow in my old age. Could you explain to me your quotes from Ez. 34 and Rev. 20 in the previous thread?
Looking forward to learning from you,
SR
As an FYI, the deacon body will not be bringing the aforementioned motion to the congregation at this time.
It appears the our Lord is doing a mighty work and many who are meeting with the communications committee and various deacons are being greatly encouraged.
In a prayerful and humble spirit we will continue work as ministers of reconciliation.
Hopefully this will come as welcome news to some who had issues with the wording of the motion and/or the timing of this public show of support.
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
dcalcote@msn.com
Thank you for the update, Derrick. That is welcome news.
NASS
NASS,
I am pleased to see you have received this in the spirit in which it was intended.
For there to be reconciliation, all parties must want it.
-Derrick
To date, a litlle over 80 active deacons (less than half) have signed the pledge. It might be presented at a later date if more support for the pledge can be won.
headoutofthesand said...
Mike said:
When warning people away from counterproductive behavior becomes sinful, whoever you are, you be sure and let me know.
Gee, Mike, thanks for all you've done! We all need a self-appointed and self-righteous Overseer of All to let everyone know when they are right or wrong.
Hate-laden, hyperbolic reply? Check.
Attack the individual, not the issue? Check.
By the way, since you are the self-designated purveyor of Truth,
By all means, quote me on that one, whoever you are. Where have I designated myself much of anything at all?
I'm curious--did God speak to you directly or do you have Scripture to back up your Divine Appointment because I've noticed you always use your words instead of God's when you post.
"Always"? Then your perception is something other than all-inclusive, whoever you are. But, hey, if I reference Scripture, some people want to attack me for it; it only makes sense that some from the same group would attack me for mistakenly insisting I never reference Scripture.
I can't help but wonder, though--what are your plans for Sunday morning?
--Mike
Derrick Calcote said...
As an FYI, the deacon body will not be bringing the aforementioned motion to the congregation at this time.
It appears the our Lord is doing a mighty work and many who are meeting with the communications committee and various deacons are being greatly encouraged.
In a prayerful and humble spirit we will continue work as ministers of reconciliation.
Hopefully this will come as welcome news to some who had issues with the wording of the motion and/or the timing of this public show of support.
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
dcalcote@msn.com
Interesting turn of events--thanks for sharing, Derrick.
So, is the "Showdown" still on?
--Mike
While I can't speak to the number of deacons who have taken the time to stop by the church, find the motion and sign it, I will point out the motion was passed unanimously by all present.
(Although I've heard someone claiming to be a deacon abstained from voting yea or nay, but at minimum there were no nay votes.)
And the vast majority of deacons were present at the vote.
If/when this is brought before the church, I'd guess the language would be tweaked somewhat to make our intent more clear. The current wording has not been interpreted the way in which it was meant.
And just an update on the mighty harvest last Sunday.
I had mentioned there had been over 20 decisions made in the 11:00 service. That number was intentionally conservative. I just heard from a friend on staff that the number for both services was 44!
To God be the Glory!
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
dcalcote@msn.com
Mike,
I don't think there was ever going to be a "showdown"...except for maybe tim's suggestion for water pistols at 20 paces..which imho...was a fun idea...perhaps someone at savingbellevue.com? That's the only place I'm aware of the term "showdown" being used.
Thank You very much. I applaud the sense of this decision.
I was actually planning on tricking Mike into using a water pistol and imploying my super soaker.
I hesitate to say it but I was considering using holy water.
Derrick,
That is more wonderful news! Thanks for the update!
The Love Offering was 1.3 million...500K in cash and 800K in pledges...the lowest amount since the late 80s
ezekiel,
It appears that the wheels that grind fine, grind slow. But indeed it does seem that the wheels are turning. We can't quite expect everything at once. I do believe that we have had progress for the past two days and am hopeful that this trend will continue. I do share your concern however there is still much work to be done.
At the risk of sounding ungrateful for those who made a decision for Christ (which I most certainly am not), I can only imagine what several frequent posters would have had to say about about Derrick's quote that "I just heard from a friend on staff that the number for both services was 44!" if a similar statement had anything to do with SG's alleged improprieties.
We'd be up to our ears in cries of "FACTS, only the FACTS, please..."
I have not been quite as active for the past couple of days and especially today, but I have cauht up with all that has been going on with the blog.
I would like to point out that at some prior post a wise individual informed us of the "technique", which was designed to thwart our efforts. It was called rope-a-dope, after the boxing style that Ali made famous.
It appears to me from reading the post of the past couple of days that this is indeed the strategy. Of course, to imply that there is a strategy it would follow that there is an organized opposition to this blog. This is not something that I have first hand knowledge of, but it certainly appears that way.
Look at the time that has been spent, answering the same questions over and over to the same people..ie..HisServant and others. Watch how they engage us by talking in circles. Perhaps it is not a well organized strategy at all, but even if it is not, we are punching ourselves out dealing with these people.
I would suggest that we refrain from fighting the same battles over and over. It would be more appropriate to reply to such things in a manner such as...
"Your argument has already been answered in prior post on the blog."
or
"Please refer to the prior post on the blog, I believe you will find that we have already covered that item"
This would also dispel any offense that might be caused by posting that we are just ...
"scrollin on by".
A comment that I myself have been guilty of using.
Of course there will be an occasional new comer that may want information and they may indeed need to brought update and it may be better to recover some information for their benefit. That will be something that you will have to use your judgement on in determining.
I appreciate and love all of you in Christ. You are most precious.
stumblingservant wrote:
".....it appears that the language the leadership hears has been clearly identified."
Hmmm... would part of that perhaps be money that walks talks loudest?
NASS
Mike, it's not worth it man. We seem to define things completely differently and see the world through nearly inverted lenses. Your arguments just don’t add up to me, and presumably mine don’t to you either.
I had a longer response written, but again, it's just not worth it. Point by point, tit-for-tat stuff won't get us anywhere since we just don't define things the same way at all.
Most folks here see what I'm talking about. Most folks who hang out at your place see things the way you see them. We're at an impasse here.
So, that said, I doff my hat to you, and rest in the assurance that when eternity rolls around, our differences will be reconciled.
headoutofthesand,
You and I share this trait. You have shown far more restraint, than I have been able to maintain. I am constantly having to remind myself that there is a difference between being right and being righteous.
The key that I have come to realize is that in being right you will always appear to be self righteous, in being righteous you will always be right.
God bless you. I have found no offense in your post, nor in your defense of our church.
Moved from last thread:
MOM4 said...
HisServant said...
mom4: what financial issues still remain?
12:38 PM, November 16, 2006
HisServant said...
mom4 posted: For one, I have repeated asked if the deacons were shown the actual invoices for ALL of the credit cards or just a power point presentation, and I have asked if there were other charges that were billed as separate invoices -(not on a credit card), and I have asked if the credit card statements for VISA, MC and AMEX were all presented.
No one has bothered to answer me yet?
Can you?
REPLY: so you asked the Committee and they did not answer you?? they have ALL the info. Visa? does not exist. Brother Steve goes above and beyond in the area of finances. if you really wanted the ANSWERS you would have them by now.
1:37 PM, November 16, 2006
MKW said...
Mom4,
I really dislike jumping into the fray, and I don't really have the time right this second to go back and research the exact "when and where" of this, but someone DID answer your question about the deacons' examination of the credit card charges. They said that they saw the Power Point AND the actual credit card information. I can go back and check this later if you'd like, but I distinctly recall that post among the thousands that I've read in the last week. If whoever posted that statement originally would repeat it, that would save a lot of time.
MKW
1:42 PM, November 16, 2006
MOM4 said...
I have submitted my request via the proper forms to the Communications Committee and I have not heard a "peep" from anyone. I sent it in as soon as the forms were made available which was close to being within the first weeks of the Committee's formation.
And the church does have a VISA because I have seen one not too long ago, or they did at one point. Has it been cancelled and the account closed? If so, when.
1:42 PM, November 16, 2006
MOM4 said...
MKW,
I did indeed ask Derrick Calcote and did not find a reply in this blog. If you do find it, please tell me when and where it is and I will apologize.
Thanks for your input.
1:45 PM, November 16, 2006
MOM4 now asks again:
It has been 10 more hours since I first asked the questions today and somehow, this subject just gets pushed under the rug - over and over and over...could this be one of the problems...HELLLLOOO????
MKW,
I still cannot find the answer, have you had any measure of success?
hisservant,
You asked a question, I asked a question, I answered your question to me, You have not responded at all to mine. This needs to be settled for us all to see, please.
11:03 PM, November 16, 2006
I have read most all the postings which have appeared on this website and its predecessor since the beginning. My position is probably closer to neutral than it would be to one side or the other. I truly want to understand the truth and relevance in all this as it does have an impact on the church where my membership of 17 years resides. I have limited my postings and remained an observer for the most part. But I feel compelled to write due to the increase of what I see as a ‘war of words’ that continues to be launched.
I do not personally know our pastor Steve Gaines, nor Mark Sharpe, Richard Emerson or others who have publicly expressed various concerns relating to our pastor. From the words of my friends at Bellevue most of the men who have voiced concerns are men of faith and integrity. I do know personally Chuck Taylor, David Coombs, John Crockett, and other Bellevue men who have been in lay leadership positions with our church. From a personal standpoint I know these men to be of integrity and love for our Lord Jesus.
I have personally visited with Derrick Calcoate and found him to be genuine and respectful while supporting our pastor. The reason I say ‘while supporting our pastor’ is that Derrick has acknowledge that position on numerous occasions. I make no judgment as to the right or wrong to his position but just a statement of fact. I have read the posts of Mike Bratton and while I personally do not know him I must admit that I would have little desire to want to meet him. He obviously is a fan of Steve Gaines and has utilized his ability to attempt dissuade others by the use of more rhetoric and name calling than fact. But there is a point in that I make use of the description of Mike as a ‘fan’. Herein rests my concerns about the postings I’ve witnessed on both sides of this issue.
If I may for a moment use a weak analogy of comparing posters on this site as fans to a sporting event. Have you ever watch a sporting event without a specific team in which you cared to support? In those cases you see and make determinations based on your understanding of the game and personal expectations of what constitutes great sport and gamesmanship. But many of us are fans of one team. What we see when our team losses is bad play calling, not enough effort, bad player attitudes and bad coaching. The week before after a big win we were proclaiming the great play calling, great effort, aggressive attitude and wonderful coaching. My point to this comparison is that we allow our emotions to dictate our thought process much too often. I recall a number of occasions our beloved Dr. Rogers admonishing us not to allow our feelings to dictate our decisions.
Dr. Rogers would point out that the reason he opposed gambling is that there had to be a loser for someone to be a winner. Of course from a business revenue point we know that casinos have to have many losers for there to be one winner. Dr. Rogers stressed that we be involved in situations which were win/win. That is where we need to focus with our existing situation. We need to find a way for everyone to have his/her voice heard, questions answered in a straight forward truthful manner and then to reconcile our differences and go on about the Lord’s business. But to have that win/win situation we must dispose of our emotional baggage on both sides. A great way to start is allowing the Communications Committee to work. Please seek your unanswered questions through the proper channels and yes by all means report them on the Internet for everyone to see. I think many issues will be put to rest this way. But for those of us (I do include myself) who see personality faults with Bro. Steve in the way he has handled various situation let us lay aside those differences of opinion. As the Lord has grown us in our walk, He will continue to grow Bro. Steve in his ministry. I believe that the apology to Mark Sharpe and the decision to not have the deacons sign a pledge are signs that Bro. Steve has heard from those hurting. He has taken some steps to reconcile, should we not do the same?
P.S. – Mike you can make a start by ending your use of the term ‘anti-Bellevue’. This term only inflames and you should know that one cannot be a reconciler of the brothers while tossing word phrases of this type. Am I wrong to assume that you would want to be a reconciler? Derrick, thank you for your honest attempts at reconciliation among our membership.
Ezekiel,
Your response was, "the Holy Spirit is a much greater teacher than this sinful man."
God chose to use us sinful men to reveal Himself. We are all of Jesus that many people will ever see.
Jesus said go and make disciples, and teach them to obey. Whether we realize it or not, we are always discipling others (for good or bad). Let's always set a fitting example in how we handle the inspired, infallible Word of God.
I would just like to openly ask and pled it need be that MOKE BRATTON stop posts that reflect so poorly on Bellevue and the pastor that he says he loves.
MIKE, If you love your pastor plese do not continue to use language that MANY see as bullying and intimidating.
Stop calling people who have genuine concerns anti-Bellevue.
Do you not realized that some who have concerns are Bellevue deacons and staff????
Your posts are BRUTAL and MEAN SPIRITED and nobody really cares what you say anymore because of the way you say it.
Many have really lost respect for you and when this is all over and reconciliation has come, you have your own list of people to reconcile with.
I must tell you that if you were ever nominated to become a deacon at Bellevue,I personally would have a problem when I see how you relate to people who have different views that you do. Maybe you are disquialified to be nominated, I don`t know, but if I see that you ever have been, I would have to bring my concerns to the deacon committee.
I hope you wil seriously consider stopping all of this.
I can not help but notice that your own website is full of hate and ridicule and while you are pointnig the finger of correction in a hateful manner to other websites and blogs, I hope you see that you are right in the middle of the problems which are keeping good people from coming together in love to reconcile their differences.
Everytime you come here you bring stones to throw. Please stop it.
I noticed that mkw, has aplogized for her tone and I appracite that because she was reflecting badly on Bellevue with her posts. Maybe she has learned a good lesson about how to deliver a message. I also noticed she callled for others to stop doing what she was doing. If you don`t want to listen to me, take a cue from your friend mkw.
I am surprized that our daacon, Derrick Calcote hasn`t asked this of you but I think you are being a GREAT STUMBLING BLOCK to reconciliation.
Come on and get on board the train of reconcilation MIKE!
Let your words be genrle or stop posting here.
sorry for the mistake...
make that MIKE BRATTON
Maybe you should consider deleting the offending posts you sent so that those who come here to read them won`t be offended over and over again???
In fact, they may be an act of real repentance on your part.
I forgive you mkw but your posts are still speaking to many who come here to read the threads and so there is ongoing offense.
Just a thought.
Chuck Taylor talking at his emergency cabinet meeting:
"Guys, we have to do something. We've backed ourselves into a corner once again. Only 80 deacons have signed so far and we know there are deacons meeting off campus refusing to sign and stand. They are standing firm that they will not join the pastor on the platform to pleadge their loyalty to him. If we go through with it we are doomed and then we'll have to deal with the deacons that won't sign it. We have just put ourselves in a very bad situation once again.
How can we spin it this time.
Let's tell everyone things are going so great with the communications committee that we don't have to have the deacons stand anylonger.
Yea, that's it. Let's tell the church body everything if fine now.
Reality:
Why not be honest and just say it was a bad idea and deal with the problems.
There once was a man who owned a famous racing stallion.
One day he went to the barn and the stallion was missing.
Weeks passed by and no one could find the stallion.
Three months later a neighbor came by and confessed to the stallion owner that he had stolen the stallion.
He said I am so sorry.
He even cried.
The stallion owner forgave him and said he would forget that he ever stole the stallion.
The stallion thief thanked him and when they were through talking, the thief turned to walk away.
That afternoon the thief saddled up the stallion and took nice ride and never gave this actions another thought.
One day, the Stallion owner called out to him, Neighbor when will you be back to bring my stallion home?
The thief did not reply.
The stallion owner never saw his stallion again.
True tepentance requires a person to undo the wrong they have done and to never so it again.
I may not be telling the repentance story perfectly but I hope the point is intact.
dramadramadrama
Do you have a clue about it?
terrafirma,
Is your comment an exact quote of Chuck Taylor or a paraphrase? You have quotation marks at the beginning but none closing his remarks.
When and to whom did he make this comment?
I think it's very important to be clear on your comment. Thank you for posting it but I think clarity is needed.
Thanks.
MKW said...
Found what I was looking for.
HisServant said...
mom4: the Deacons did not just see a spreadsheet, they saw the statements as well. ALL of them and had access to the actual credit card receipts. Brother Steve goes above and beyond in this area.
1:00 AM, November 15, 2006
Now, can we respectfully ask for perhaps two or three deacons who were IN that meeting to post back and verify this so the matter can be laid to rest?
MKW
Thank you MKW,
I apologize for the reference that there had been no response. Although this is not exactly what I was looking for, it is indeed something. The original post was to Derrick and I was looking for something from him, specifically about the VISA and other charges not related to a credit card, but direct billed to the church.
Hopefully, as you requested, we will see confirmation from the deacons to clairify this issue. Thank you for the time you took to research this, and again, I apologize for my oversight. (I still cannot find it, my eyes are beginning to dim:)
dramadramadrama said
How can a person "unsteal" a horse?
I`m glad you pointed that our.
You cn not unsteal anything and this is why there is a consequence to every sin we committee. We can not unsin!
We can however make restitution and we willing to bear the consequences of our sin.
By thw way is there a story behind the name you chose to post under?
mkw said
I fear any Christian sets themselves up for sure judgment when they start pointing fingers at others.
You have done exactly what you mention here on many occassions but I do forgive you now, let`s scroll on!
dramadramadrama said...
Funny, no one has insisted that refuted lies
I didn`t see where anyone insisted that anyone delete any posts. I think it was just a suggestion made after mkw brought it up hersself.
mkw said:
after all. Is the best or only option for me to sign on and delete every post I've made?
Let`s be careful not to put words on someone elses`s lips!
MKW said...
MKW, in the spirit of love and reconciliation, passes Mom4 her white cane ...
8:40 AM, November 17, 2006
I will gratefully accept your white cane, after all, that is what we are here for, to hold each other's arms up as the battle rages:)
MKW,
If you post your real name, the personal attacks seem to subside. Mike Bratton knows my realy name and we have a personal history - and he knows my mom with whack him with a stick if he bugs me too much! <---- you know mom wouldn't really do that, but have you seen the size of my brother?
Seriously, I think the time of anonymity has come to an end. I know some people will remain anonymous out of respect for their familes and I totally respect that.
I'm just saying, it gets less personal and the cutting remarks seem to subside if you know you'll be sitting next to that person from this blog on Sunday.
Ok, hisservant, if you let me know who you are, I'll hug your neck on Sunday and we can agree to disagree. I apologize for making things personal in regard to you yesterday.
In case anyone forgot, I'm Karen Turk Marshall.
Being non-anonymous is very freeing! :)
Thanks Derrick, for letting us know about the deacon body rethinkig their position at this time. We'll let the process work if that's what it takes.
Check your email.
Thanks! Karen
terrafirma,
While I appreciated the satirical nature of your "Chuck Taylor" post, please make it clear that it was done in jest. Thanks! :)
To the posters of this blog,
Please as you well know my words have not always been kind and at times have been quite cutting. I believe that in comparison to some of mine, "mkw" has been quite civil. She and I are not in agreement on every thing, but we are within the same body. She and I share a common trait, we are passionate in our beliefs and I, personally, admire that within her spirit. We are not called to be the same, but in our differences we can be one. This is the mystery of the body of Christ.
The purpose of this blog was not to confront sin affecting us individually, but of sins that affect us congregationally.
Thanks
NBBCOF,
Please forgive the rephrasing or addition to your statement of purpose. Feel free to correct my statement, if it is inaccurate representation of your feelings.
MKW,
I had forgotten you were not anonymous.
Tim,
Well Said!
Karen
Tim,
Thank you for your words of wisdom! I've now added them to the purpose statement for the forum.
NBBCOF
Chuck Taylor talking at his emergency cabinet meeting:
Is this satire? If so, posts like this putting words in someone's mouth do not do anyone any good. Please don't post "quotes" like this unless you were actually at a real meeting and you can make a direct quote. I'm pretty sure this was sarcasm/satire, and it may be funny to some but it is not helpful.
mkw,
No one is suggesting you remove your old comments. In fact, I hope you don't! You've been an integral part of past discussions and while presenting opposing views have managed to maintain a civil and respectful tone (which is more than some on both "sides" of the issues have managed to accomplish). I appreciate your contributions and share your desire for reconciliation. Thank you!
NBBCOF
terrafirma,
I agree with bin wonderin. I read it as satire; some may not. Please don't quote quotes that aren't real quotes.
NBBCOF
Ezekiel,
VERY well done. Your post was most thought provoking. You even seem to have picked up on my earlier allusion to Psalm 119:74.
I have several commentaries on the Psalm, and I'll visit the link you recommended when I have time.
I encourage you to continue to search God's Word for guidance. That's the kind of "work" He'll surely reward.
Great post Derrick and thanks I agree that God is doing a mighty work. he is breaking us down and bringing us to our knees.
Ezekiel,
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that there are 'no strings attached' to your faith (i.e. what you have already received is sufficient for you). That attitude is consistent with what David wrote in Psalm 27, "One thing I ask of the LORD, this is what I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to seek him in his temple." I believe it's the correct way to think. The beauty of the Lord will far surpass any earthly treasure.
However, the Bible doesn't blush as it promises rewards for those who are faithful. We should eagerly look forward to the treasures we store up in heaven and never stop accumulating them.
Always love the giver more than the gift, though, just as we love our Saviour more than our salvation.
junior5432,
I think that's all been covered adequately and that we've agreed to move on. If you still have a personal issue with mkw perhaps the two of you could work it out privately.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
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