This was shared with me by a brother who requested I post it. These are wise words that we all should consider.
Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Proverbs 24:3-6
3 A house is built by wisdom and becomes strong through good sense.
4 Through knowledge its rooms are filled with all sorts of precious riches and valuables.
5 A wise man is mightier than a strong man, and a man of knowledge is more powerful than a strong man.
6 So don't go to war without wise guidance; victory depends on having many counselors.
Each of us have our own stories of how we came to Christ. It was at this point we examined Christ's love for us. It was at this point the humility of His Love and Mercy struck us, wooed us, cared for us, and granted us a hope for our future. We were introduced to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
These are serious times that require serious discourse. Cavalier statements that disregard others feelings or lose track of Whose blessed name we profess is totally uncalled for. Dr. Rogers said something along these lines. Truth without love is butchery. Love without truth is hypocrisy. If I got this wrong - please, someone correct me - Proverbs 9:8-9.
The other morning I listened to another pastor speak of how Jesus spoke in parable. This pastor suggested that Jesus did this so that the listener could think about the whole story without getting into a defensive posture. He referred to this defensive posture as "judicial hardening." Judicial hardening occurs through the process of debate when your faith is challenged and results in the hardening of the heart. Some may not be challenging others' faith but some are questioning others' integrity. I guess I can see the hardening of the hearts.
I ask all those in concern to pray for humility. Please have a conviction for your point of view but balance it with a humility for another's point of view. God is omnipotent. God is sovereign. We are the recipients of life because a Man's love was so great that he had His flesh thrashed, nailed to some wood and hung for many to mock. I am compelled to remind you of His Church in this forum, His Life, His sacrifice, His grace and Mercy for our lives. His church is a vessel for our redemption. His church is a vessel for relationship. We are mutilating our own body.
So please reflect before you react. Please pray before you respond. And provide for others an edifying atmosphere to speak their hearts.
Proverbs 25:28 A person without self-control is as defenseless as a city with broken-down walls.
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13 comments:
"We are mutilating our own body."
Amen.
Dr. Rogers used that verse in his sermon "A Unified Church."
http://youtube.com/watch?v=o929QwKAfGQ
(Copy and post above link into your browser to see excerpts from this great sermon.)
Alternately the full audio from the sermon is available on Bellevue's website.
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
dcalcote@msn.com
We are not mutilating the body by trying to find out the truth. Unfortunately the new BBC "shepherd" seems to be doing this. The shepherd is force feeding the sheep with a new music style that does not always seem to glorify but instead has us blend in with the world. Not exactly like the Shepherd of the 23rd Psalm.
We are to be a light unto the world and salt. If we become just like the world in our music style then where is the difference. Where is the light for the world to look to. You can't just change the words and say that it's now Christian.
See the music at Ted Haggard's church . Click on the 2005 Barbara Walters interview: http://abcnews.go.com/Video/guide?category=2020&subcategory=2020_main_subnav&id=2625293#2625293 (see the first 25 sec and then again at 1:40 in )
I see that the slur du jour around here now is to compare Pastor Gaines with Ted Haggard.
Having browsed many of the anti-Bellevue comments (and articles) today, I'm reminded of this observation by one of my favorite philosophers. I quote him thusly, and like so:
"I think, when one has been angry for a very long time, one gets used to it. Then it becomes comfortable, like old leather. And finally, it is so familiar one can't remember feeling any other way. But in the long run, we are the ones who are damaged by that kind of behavior. We are. Not them."
--Mike
Mike Bratton,
Perhaps you should actually read the blog instead of making up your own version of it.
The comparison was not of Dr. Gaiens to Ted Haggard. The comparison was of the fact that in just a matter of a few days the church in Colorado managed to resolve their issues. It could have been done at our church as well, but it has become so politically corrupt that it would make the Pharisees proud.
Tim said...
Mike Bratton,
Perhaps you should actually read the blog instead of making up your own version of it.
The comparison was not of Dr. Gaiens to Ted Haggard. The comparison was of the fact that in just a matter of a few days the church in Colorado managed to resolve their issues. It could have been done at our church as well, but it has become so politically corrupt that it would make the Pharisees proud.
Tim, if you're comparing Bellevue to New Life Church, you're comparing Steve Gaines to Ted Haggard. I see that you, personally, would prefer to compare Bellevue to corrupt Pharisees, but that's another matter entirely.
I quote you, and others, thusly and like so:
"tim said... I would expect that the folks at the church of Haggard in Colorado should look to us for leadership. You know, no big deal because every thing is going so great. It really doesn't matter what your leadership does as long as you can prove your growth."
"Eccl.7:25 said... Tim... I was thinking about Haggard too. I wonder how many of his members "knew something wasn't right" and made a choice to look the other way. With a church that size, I think it is a shame someone from the "outside" had to exposed him.I would guess that without the audio, he would still be lying and dragging his church behind him."
"gopher said...
We are not mutilating the body by trying to find out the truth. Unfortunately the new BBC "shepherd" seems to be doing this. The shepherd is force feeding the sheep with a new music style that does not always seem to glorify but instead has us blend in with the world. Not exactly like the Shepherd of the 23rd Psalm.
We are to be a light unto the world and salt. If we become just like the world in our music style then where is the difference. Where is the light for the world to look to. You can't just change the words and say that it's now Christian. See the music at Ted Haggard's church."
"truth hunter said... I feel sorry for Dr. Dobson. Yesterday, he knew for sure the reports about his good friend, Rev. Haggard, were true. Today he had to retract that statement. Do you want to be in that position? What about those men who vigorously defended Frank Harbor in Texas? How do they feel now?"
Were I to "make up my own version" of this blog, it certainly wouldn't read as emotionally-fueled, gossip-laden, and fact-free as this one. Actually, it wouldn't even exist at all.
--Mike
Wrong again, Mike.
I am not comparing Bellevue to Pharisees.
And, no, comparing the manner in which New Life church handled their investigation to the way that Bellevue has handled theirs does not equate Dr. Gaines to Ted Haggard. The logic of your point is absurd.
I am comparing self righteous leadership to Pharisees.
I can see now why you have no problems playing the role at all as there is no acting involved.
And, oh, by the way before you respond with your cookie cutter, personal attack defense. This is based on reading what you have written in many blogs. It is an opinion and it may not be shared by anyone else, but it is mine.
If you indeed have all the answers as you so aptly believe that you do, then Why don't you present them to the church and solve all of these problems. Better yet you could solve the problems of the world.
Quite frankly, I have seen your "fact laden", "unemotinal" blog and to be quite honest with you, need to let you know that you seem to suceed in adding more fuel to the fire than actually addressing or solving any issues.
People in agreement with you on your blog can't even agree with you in a manner that you deem proper and are promptly reprimanded.
As for emotionalism. My goodness, you had better start looking for another church if it is a problem for you in a blog, because it is becoming a staple in our church.
Tim said...
Wrong again, Mike.
I am not comparing Bellevue to Pharisees.
You just did. I quote you thusly, and like so: "It could have been done at our church as well, but it has become so politically corrupt that it would make the Pharisees proud."
Do you not attend Bellevue, whoever you are?
And, no, comparing the manner in which New Life church handled their investigation to the way that Bellevue has handled theirs does not equate Dr. Gaines to Ted Haggard. The logic of your point is absurd.
Personal pronouncements of what is and is not "absurd" do not equate to evidence. Your opinion disagrees with the available evidence.
I am comparing self righteous leadership to Pharisees.
The so-called "self righteous leadership" of what church, again?
I can see now why you have no problems playing the role at all as there is no acting involved.
And, oh, by the way before you respond with your cookie cutter, personal attack defense. This is based on reading what you have written in many blogs. It is an opinion and it may not be shared by anyone else, but it is mine.
Were there not so many personal disparagements, such as the one you just slung in my direction, I would have no need to observe that people such as yourself, whoever you are, engage in so many personal disparagements.
If you indeed have all the answers as you so aptly believe that you do, then Why don't you present them to the church and solve all of these problems.
Where, exactly, have I made such a statement?
The only answer I've advanced is that people with an anti-Bellevue mindset should stop publicising it.
Better yet you could solve the problems of the world.
Again, a single quote to support your sniping would be greatly appreciated.
Quite frankly, I have seen your "fact laden", "unemotinal" blog and to be quite honest with you, need to let you know that you seem to suceed in adding more fuel to the fire than actually addressing or solving any issues.
The only issue in need of a solution is the anti-Bellevue mindset; the only people capable of solving it are the people who have embraced it. It would be unloving not to contest the behavior in which those people engage.
People in agreement with you on your blog can't even agree with you in a manner that you deem proper and are promptly reprimanded.
Again--an example, please?
As for emotionalism. My goodness, you had better start looking for another church if it is a problem for you in a blog, because it is becoming a staple in our church.
In what way?
--Mike
Okay, gentlemen. I've asked before that people in this forum please not get into these heated, long-winded exchanges with Mike Bratton when he's in the mode he's in today. You've both now made your points, and I'm not going to delete anything posted so far, but if you wish to continue this discussion, please, for everyone's sake, take it to the "Bratton blog" or offline or just step out in the alley and "beat the fool" out of each other if you want. Just take it anywhere besides here! That's not why this forum exists.
Thank you.
NBBCOF
tim,
You may want to refer to my comment from November 5th at 9:39 p.m. in the "E-mail Exchange Between Deacons... " thread. As you pointed out, nobody is comparing Dr. Gaines to the pastor in Colorado but simply pointing out how two different churches have handled an issue of alleged wrongdoing with their pastors. The nature of the issues in these two cases is completely different, but perhaps Bellevue could look to the Colorado church or other churches for examples of how (or how not) to handle "issues" in general.
NASS
New BBC Open Forum said...
Okay, gentlemen. I've asked before that people in this forum please not get into these heated, long-winded exchanges with Mike Bratton when he's in the mode he's in today. You've both now made your points, and I'm not going to delete anything posted so far, but if you wish to continue this discussion, please, for everyone's sake, take it to the "Bratton blog" or offline or just step out in the alley and "beat the fool" out of each other if you want. Just take it anywhere besides here! That's not why this forum exists.
Thank you.
NBBCOF
Two questions, if I may:
1) What's this "mode" business? I ask questions, and would appreciate answers. If people like "gopher" and "tim" can't support their statements, they should reconsider making them, wouldn't you agree?
2) Why would you recommend physical violence as an alternative to discussion?
--Mike
P.S.: Well, that second one was more of a joke than a question...
New BBC Open Forum,
I appologize greatly to you. I had not seen any previous post that you had mentioned defering from any engagement, but I will abide by your wishes after one last comment on the situation and then Mr. Bratton can proceed into the alley and attempt to beat the fool out of himself (it'll take more than a bat).
I think it is quite healthy myself to see how unequipped some of the die hard "My Pastor" right or wrong folks are. I think it speaks volumes to note the attitude of arrogance that they present. I must confess that I did goad Mr. Bratton somewhat into what seemed to be an "emotional" little tirade and it pains me deeply that he allowed to happen so easily. You read his remarks and see if you believe that there is any merit to his criticism.
Now .. I promise no matter what I will not respond any further to his useless rantings.
tim,
Not a problem. Thank you. And the reasons you stated are exactly why, other than remaining "open," why I've allowed all of Mr. Bratton's comments (and a few others) to stand. They speak volumes about their authors' positions and attitudes.
And the reference to physical violence? That was a phrase straight out of Deacon Teutsch's playbook. That's what he said he wanted to do to the "evil men." Difference is, he was serious; I was joking.
NBBCOF
tim said... I think it is quite healthy myself to see how unequipped some of the die hard "My Pastor" right or wrong folks are. I think it speaks volumes to note the attitude of arrogance that they present. I must confess that I did goad Mr. Bratton somewhat into what seemed to be an "emotional" little tirade and it pains me deeply that he allowed to happen so easily. You read his remarks and see if you believe that there is any merit to his criticism.
Now .. I promise no matter what I will not respond any further to his useless rantings.
Whoever you are, you haven't responded in the first place. I asked questions, and you studiously avoided answering them, instead working from the anti-Bellevue playbook and throwing rocks at people who don't agree with you.
However, if you reconsider, I'll still like to read your answers.
If you'll pardon me now, folks, I have to go get a tissue--I'm feeling a little verklempt right now.
Talk amongst yourselves... I'll give you a topic... Rhode Island is neither a road nor an island... Discuss.
--Mike
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