Update: The uncut, unedited version has resurfaced.
On Sunday morning, July 13th, both services at Bellevue opened with a rousing choir number with a stage full of young, barefoot, writhing, cavorting, "interpretive" dancers. Apparently several people in the congregation walked out then, and the church office received a number of complaints on Monday.
By the middle of the week, the video archive of this service had been edited, with the baptismal service and dance number cut out. However, we have now been provided with an uncut version. So here, for your viewing... uh... pleasure... is the mysterious, vanishing dance video.
Steve Gaines, who was not present for the performance, apologized to the congregation the following Sunday. He wasn't out of town or anything; he just attended another local church. Yet this Sunday night he stated, "You can't find anywhere in the Bible where a layman told an elder what to do." Sheep have no voice. Not as long as there are still the "elders we didn't know we had."
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369 comments:
1 – 200 of 369 Newer› Newest»Well, I think we should praise Him, and be joyful in doing so.
But I don't think I need to look like I'm having a seizure while I'm doing it.
just sayin'.
oc.
Steve Gaines in a January 20, 2008 sermon:
"What is an elder? It's a pastor. It's not some 'super deacon.' It's not some elevated lay person. An elder is a pastor is a bishop is a pastor is an elder is a bishop -- all the same stuff. There's only two offices in the New Testament -- pastor, which is also an elder and a bishop and deacons."
So interpreting that in light of what he said this Sunday night, he appears to be saying, "No lowly sheep is ever going to tell me what to do!"
More here.
"Steve Gaines, who was not present for the performance, apologized to the congregation the following Sunday. Yet this Sunday night he stated, "You can't find anywhere in the Bible where a layman told an Elder what to do."
Wait a minute, he's the "senior pastor" and he had to apologize because he didn't know what was going to happen in the worship service while he was gone? Nice side-step shepherd. And also, if he needed to apologize because he was not there to "supervise",then there is nice under-shepherding too by his trusty "assistants".
Then this:
"You can't find anywhere in the Bible where a layman told an Elder what to do."
Well It may not have happened in the Bible, but the sheep sure stampeded on you this time, didn't they?
The sheep seem to have a mind of their own sometimes, don't they? Kinda embarrassing, ain't it?
"Yet this Sunday night he stated, "You can't find anywhere in the Bible where a layman told an elder what to do." Sheep have no voice."
Seriously? He said this? Even after all those years in seminary he does not know there is no 'laity' in the Body? No such thing. Not in scripture.
Gaines is really into a caste system of hierarchy in the Body, isn't he?
If I had a pastor who said the above, I would leave and never go back. Talk about isolated and insulated!
""What is an elder? It's a pastor. It's not some 'super deacon.' It's not some elevated lay person. An elder is a pastor is a bishop is a pastor is an elder is a bishop -- all the same stuff. There's only two offices in the New Testament -- pastor, which is also an elder and a bishop and deacons.""
It is NOT an office. The translators added that word. It is a FUNCTION 'spiritually mature'.
It is not about earthly power and authority. Unfortuantly for Gaines, in the true Body of Christ there are only SERVANTS and elders are just servants of all.
Arrogance and bad taste....
just a few of the top character traits SG has brought to BBC.
I think that music sounds like it came from the 80's movie "Damien"
just sayin....
Exact quote as I have it, "Nowhere in the Bible do you have a layman telling those pastors (elders) what to do, but the pastors (elders) were giving the leadership."
So, it is dancing in church that's the problem, or interpretive dancing, or bad interpretive dancing? Cuz this looks like all 3 to me. And which did SG apologize for?
Re: the SG quote: "Nowhere in the Bible do you have a layman telling those pastors (elders) what to do, but the pastors (elders) were giving the leadership." As Lin pointed out, the layman/clergy distinction isn't in the New Testament, so it's kinda like saying, "Nowhere in the Bible do you have a Pegasus telling those Unicorns what to do, but the Unicorns were giving the leadership."
I am ashamed to even be seen on this blog, but I will NOT sit quietly while young people of my church are berated by comments here.
Before making any further comments about their act of praise, I would ask that you at least think of those young people and how your comments might affect THEM.
Psalm 150
Praise the LORD.
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute,
praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals.
Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD.
No one ever said the words weren't Biblical, and I'm well aware that's from Psalms. But writhing and cavorting all over the stage in that manner was shameful. Why, if there was nothing wrong with it, did people walk out and complain, and what motivated Steve Gaines to apologize? Why was that part of the service edited out of the archived video -- when it had been there for several days already? Why would they want to relegate those young people's performance to the cutting room floor? Looks like the person who ordered the video edited is the one guilty of berating. But hey, at least now they can watch themselves on Veoh.
The "young people of your church" should be ashamed of themselves for participating in something like this... but not nearly as much so as the adults who are supposed to be leading them who should know better.
"Nowhere in the Bible do you have a Pegasus telling those Unicorns what to do, but the Unicorns were giving the leadership."
LOL!!
(Hey, it is all Greek to me!)
"Before making any further comments about their act of praise, I would ask that you at least think of those young people and how your comments might affect THEM."
I pray that will run from that church as fast as possible and find a true bible church that does not teach that there is a caste system in Christianity. We are all part of the Priesthood. If true believers, we all have 'anointing'. I am more concerned about how that place is affecting them!
If we take Gaines' statement to its logical conclusion then Paul was in sin for rebuking Peter (the more senior apostle) in Galatians.
And Nass has a point, if our comments are so bad then why did Gaines apologize for the writhing on stage? Are you ashamed to be seen in Gaines' church because he apologized? (Because it is HIS church, you know.)
This is music and dance is know in the "world" as the
"Tribal Dance"
seen here at a faster pace
Warning Secular Site
So how far does the Elder want to go to fit into Memphis???
92_1 said ..."Before making any further comments about their act of praise..." my question would be an act of praise for whom? Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't all of the "dancers" clear off and away from the stage when JP and the other singer stepped out? We wouldn't want the distraction to take away from the main event, would we? The words of Psalm 150 seem to have a recurring theme... Praise HIM, not highlight us.
I heard it was bad, but even so, I'm stunned. The music was as bad as the dancing. How long before they rename the place Saddleback East?
Note that flying horses and unicorns are both mythical beasts. ;-) But Lin is correct, there is no such thing as laity in scripture. Gaines misuses his "bishop's mitre" to put himself above the hoi poloi and any accountability: popery, pure and simple. Scripture is plain:
Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for
“ God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”
Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time... I Pet. 5:5-6
It's interesting that Gaines appeals to the office of bishop, which is only discussed in the very passages he rejects ("they're just guidelines") concerning the qualifications of "bishops and elders": I Tim. 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9
I want to say that I don't hold the kids responsible at all. They were under the authority of the leadership....and we know how seriously the leadership takes their self appointed authority.
The young people did the very best they could, I feel sure.
However, there is a time and place for everything.
We talk about how worship shouldn't be a show....or a performance.
I believe that none of what happened was anything close to corporate worship.
It was a show. Not suitable for a Sunday morning worship service.
Not anything that others could or should join in.
It was also tasteless and void of any real beauty or form.
A dancer friend of mine is still wondering why they were dressed the way they were.And what the music was about.
Nothing made sense...and in my opinion, was very man centered.
NOW....has anyone ever seen Ballet Magnificat perform to the Savior music????
That's art. But STILL not appropriate for a Sunday morning service....but their gift of dance is very honoring to God.
He IS the Lord of the dance. But the world takes what God made perfect and beautiful and they taint it ....and it becomes void of any beauty at all.
God deserves pure worship.
Hint: No visible profile. No comment.
Also, if you're the same "observer" who frequented here last year, please just keep on going. If not, you're more than welcome to post when you make your profile visible.
I didn't know that your profile had to be visible. Anyhow, I see nothing wrong with this dance. To the contrary these young people warm my heart with their expression of praise. I am in my mid-fifties, but I would never demand that young people have the same musical expressions of faith that I have held to through the years. I am just glad that these kids are in church worshipping their Saviour. I think Jesus Himself would be pleased by their expression of praise.
Jerry Sutton "retires" from Two Rivers Baptist Church.
Everything you ever wanted to know about the Two Rivers situation and more.
On balance, the first song was based on Psalm 150, as noted by 92_1. I don't believe dancing in and of itself is sinful, or scripture would not encourage it.
Such production numbers, however, are designed to appeal to the world, a central tenet of the Rick Warren strategy to get "unchurched Harry and Sally" churched. Driven by this "purpose", they conduct surveys to find out why people don't like church and then change to meet their expectations. In effect, the world dictates how we should have church. We shouldn't complain, then, at worldliness in the church. It is the world.
"It's interesting that Gaines appeals to the office of bishop, which is only discussed in the very passages he rejects ("they're just guidelines") concerning the qualifications of "bishops and elders": I Tim. 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9"
Very good point. When the pedophile was an elder they were just guidelines.
Observer, when David danced it was not coreographed, practiced and performed for a human audience. Humans just happened to be there.
Can you show me examples of dancing within the Body in the NC? You guys are going TBN over there. What next? Purple velvet throne chairs on the altar?
"What is an elder? It's a pastor. It's not some 'super deacon.' It's not some elevated lay person. An elder is a pastor is a bishop is a pastor is an elder is a bishop -- all the same stuff. There's only two offices in the New Testament -- pastor, which is also an elder and a bishop and deacons.""
Sorry for staying with this but I just ran across this from Gaines. Now, where would Gaines put Stephen? He was a 'deacon'. Yet, why was he stoned to death? It certainly wasn't for waiting tables.
what DID SG apologize for?????
Even if I can stand on my head and sing Yankee Doodle Dandee while drinking a glass of kool-aid, this does not constitute an act of worship pleasing to the Lord; no matter how entertaining that may be to those viewing the spectacle.
Yeah, I too want to know what the Bishop of Bellevue apologized for. Anybody know?
(LOL! I guess we can call him "BOB" for short.)
Well, well, well! Isn't this an interesting development? Seems Bellevue forced Veoh to pull the dance video due to "copyright violation." Yet there are clips from the Passion Play, SCT, and other services at Bellevue all over YouTube and other video hosting sites, many of which have been up for years, and none of those have been pulled. Why this one? Could it be they really are embarrassed by this? First they edit it out of their own video archive, Steve Gaines apologizes -- for exactly what we've yet to figure out -- and now they force it to be pulled from Veoh.
Okay, Elder/Pastor/Bishop Steve, you won this round, but plenty of people saw that fiasco, and it is still floating around out there.
You know, it's amazing the lengths to which they'll go to make sure this video is squelched forever. What are they so ashamed of? Instead of facing the problem and saying, "We screwed up," they just make it go away. Nice going, guys!
Yes, I know some will disagree with me, so don't waste your time telling me.
That being said...
I sometimes think an interpretive dance can be a very beautiful thing and can complement a worship service.
This however was not such a dance.
I wonder who thought this was a good idea or that it would be accepted as a good thing. I also am confused that no parents knew what their kids were doing, or they didn't care? Very confusing to me.
I am confused with SG comments about the laymen telling the elder... setting aside the Biblical confusion - is that comment tied to the dancing thing? What layman is telling which elder what to do? Wasn't this musical thing a JP idea? And isn't he a minister of music? I am very confused...
gmommy said...
He IS the Lord of the dance.
I thought that was Michael Flatley.
BWG,
I LOVE interpretive movement....done well!!!
My dear friend, who has danced for BBC on mission trips and in other appropriate venues, took my breath away with her IM.
The emotion on her face and in her movements was always very beautiful.
Even tho she is a professional dancer, and has been asked.....she is committed that she will never dance for a Sunday morning sanctuary service.
The thing done at BBC was too much like a frenzied chant and just done in very poor taste.
I feel sad for the kids...it is NOT their fault. The fault lies in whoever made the decision to allow this spectacle on a Sunday morning.
Nass! Are yo saying that yo had to pull the video?????
What did "BOB" mean?!
Oh, there was one video clip that was pulled from YouTube -- the video of the March 25, 2007 "monkey business" meeting. They didn't want anyone seeing that disgraceful performance either. So are we seeing a pattern here? It seems any time the "elders we didn't know we had" at Bellevue don't like something that happens, they do everything they can to deep six any record of it.
Right now there's a special on ABC's Primetime about Randy Pausch, the college professor best known for his "The Last Lecture" speech at Carnegie Mellon University. Randy Pausch lost his battle with pancreatic cancer last week. He was only 47.
Pausch said if he only had three words of advice to give, they would be "Tell the Truth." And if he got three more words, they'd be "All the Time." Wise words of advice our "elders" would do well to heed.
Some people think this is just a silly instance of a "mistake of the head, not of the heart".
But this is not a minor thing,and nothing to be scoffed at.
I'll tell you why that video disappeared. When you dance around in that manner like a bunch of pagans, it's hard to make anyone take our holy God seriously. They made a HUGE mistake in mixing religions. Syncretism. See the Old Testament, and ruminate on what God thinks of diluting our relationship by accepting substitutes for Him.
This is no minor thing.
oc.
"Nass! Are yo saying that yo had to pull the video?????"
Since I wasn't the party that posted it, no. Apparently BBC forced Veoh, the hosting site, to pull it.
"What did "BOB" mean?!"
Bishop of Bellevue
92_1,
Where to start? No one is berating children. The bloggers love children. Some of us might wonder about their discernment or that of their parents but we are not berating children. BBC does not have a "sanctuary" anymore....it has a "worship center" so "Praise God in His sanctuary" has no meaning there. I have not gotten to see this yet since it keeps getting pulled. I guess I have no right to comment since all I have seen is a few still pictures. I can only imagine what the "tribal dance" music sounded like. Probably sounds like and looks like a bunch of pagans dancing. Ever heard of "drumming?"
Psalm 150 speaks of people praising God with various instruments. Were the instruments mentioned used in the music? If not, I really don't see the parallel. What I do see is a still picture of rear ends facing the "audience" in the "worship center." I think you should be more ashamed of your lack of biblical discernment than of posting here. I doubt there was much dancing going on in the NT church. I think they were too busy teaching the new believers and hiding from the people who wanted to persecute them. Anyone who has ever been to a Jewish service has seen how very celebratory those services are. I always supposed NT churches were more reserved and reverant although obviously they were celebrating their risen Lord. As we have already discussed on a previous thread, the churches we see today don't really mirror what went on in the NT church even though they all call themselves NT churches.
Three guesses as to whom they got to pull the strings and make that video disappear.
If Nixon had had someone on his staff like that, then he would've never had to resign because no one would ever have found out the truth.
It looks like Steve will be using Brian Teigland's legacy to promote himself this weekend:
Here
I give up on the 3 guesses.
1.Personally, I did not enjoy the dancing.
2.Gaines did apologize for the dancing in the service and say that the worship service was not the appropriate venue for this type of dance, and that this was not the direction BBC was heading in.
3. I think the last picture of the dancers bending over is a little misleading and unfair (in my opinion). You make it look like they are just up there shaking their bottoms, which is not the case.
And no, it's not the children's fault. The fault remains with the adults who threw them out on the alter of disgrace in order to perform for their satisfaction. Basically, in essence,they sacrificed those children on the alter of "feel good".
It's not the children's fault. They
were taught to trust, but maybe they trusted wrongly. That's what very sad here in my opinion.
OK.
I've tried to not say this but the urge is too much......
Do a little dance....praise a little God....Get Down tonight!
Here is but a short list of the mostly (if not all) copyrighted videos produced at Bellevue which remain on YouTube. A search for "Adrian Rogers" turns up at least 20 clips from sermons preached at Bellevue. As with the dance number, these were part of worship services, the content of which is supposedly copyrighted. The question is why? Why would a church copyright their worship services? And why, if the services and programs are copyrighted, then why have only two videos (to my knowledge) been pulled for "copyright infringement"?
Dr. Adrian Rogers Calls for Unity at BBC
This one is all over the place, linked to from several sites.
Memphis Passion Play -- Clip 1
Memphis Passion Play -- Clip 2
Memphis Passion Play -- Clip 3
Memphis Passion Play -- Clip 7
Memphis Passion Play -- Clip 8
Memphis Passion Play -- Clip 9
Memphis Passion Play -- Clip 10
Memphis Passion Play -- Clip 11
Memphis Passion Play -- Clip 12
Memphis Passion Play -- Clip 13
Memphis Passion Play -- Clip 14
Memphis Passion Play -- Clip 15
Singing Christmas Tree -- Clip 1
Singing Christmas Tree -- Clip 2
Trash Can Band -- Shout
Speakers Tournament Promo
These two are from a time when Bellevue still had her dignity:
Roger Lowther on Bellevue Baptist's Organ -- Part 1
Roger Lowther on Bellevue Baptist's Organ -- Part 2
Now, I am not suggesting Bellevue have any of these videos removed. Quite the contrary. BUT the rules need to be applied across the board equally. Otherwise, the elders look like... well... hypocrites.
And how did anyone at Bellevue know the dance video was posted? I thought no one read this blog.
Was Brian Teigland a member of Bellevue or a friend of Steve Gaines? If he was, I see no problem with Gaines leading the memorial service. If he wasn't, Gaines should bow out.
gmommy wrote:
"I give up on the 3 guesses."
1. DC
2. DC
3. DC
Any questions?
Actually, two of those guesses should be JB. As in, the fearless leader of public relations and residential expert of all media and copyright infringement laws.
Come on. Whose face is always on the news when BBC is concerned?
None...thank you Nass.
Memphis said:
"1.Personally, I did not enjoy the dancing.
2.Gaines did apologize for the dancing in the service and say that the worship service was not the appropriate venue for this type of dance, and that this was not the direction BBC was heading in.
3. I think the last picture of the dancers bending over is a little misleading and unfair (in my opinion). You make it look like they are just up there shaking their bottoms, which is not the case."
Memphis...
1. Why not? Why didn't you like it? Tell us why.
2. Dumb answer. BOB is the senior pastor and /or elder and /or bishop and/or maybe Pope. Ignorance is NOT an excuse. It's not BOB's first day out of the seminary, is it? He's getting big bucks to not be stupid.
And he apologized for WHAT?
I'm still waiting to hear what he apologized for.
3. Maybe not. Maybe their butts weren't shot towards Heaven on purpose. But it may be perceived as having an attitude towards God which can be taken as less than respectful to the Lord of glory. So why even walk that line?
OC argued:
Memphis...
1. Why not? Why didn't you like it? Tell us why.
Answer: I am not a fan of ballet, interpative dancing or anything of the likes, it is not my cup of tea!
2. Dumb answer. BOB is the senior pastor and /or elder and /or bishop and/or maybe Pope. Ignorance is NOT an excuse. It's not BOB's first day out of the seminary, is it? He's getting big bucks to not be stupid.
And he apologized for WHAT?
I'm still waiting to hear what he apologized for.
Answer: Dumb answer??? He apologized for the dance that went on that Sunday morning, I was there and heard him apologize, were you?
3. Maybe not. Maybe their butts weren't shot towards Heaven on purpose. But it may be perceived as having an attitude towards God which can be taken as less than respectful to the Lord of glory. So why even walk that line?
Answer: In my opinion, that was a frame taken to make it look worse than the dance actually was.
An OC, please do not call my opinions dumb. You took a simple statement of my saying what he apologized for and you want to go to battle. Not going to happen. Feel free to email if you really want to discuss this with me, but not going to argue you with you about something that you did not hear or see.
scion,
Good point. I forgot about him, but you're probably right.
memphis,
Honest question. You said SG apologized "for the dance." I'm still not clear as to what he was apologizing for. I'm also confused about why they're so hell-bent on making sure this video never sees the light of day again. I've already pointed out their hypocrisy in allowing all sorts of other "copyrighted" videos to remain in the public domain while choosing to have only two (that I know of) removed.
As for "oc," he wasn't picking a fight with you or anyone else. (I haven't always been able to say that, but in this case it's true.) Please don't come here and try to goad him into an argument. He was merely stating his opinion, in his own unique "oc" way, not attacking you.
"In my opinion, that was a frame taken to make it look worse than the dance actually was."
No, it actually wasn't. They assumed that and many other positions several times during the course of the performance. Those shots, together, were intended only to give the reader some idea of the overall movements, not to make any kind of "statement." The video did that quite nicely.
NASS, it was clear to me that he apologized about the dancing saying that it was not appropriate for a worship service, he also said that there are other venues where that would be more appropriate. He referenced the SCT and PP and mentioned the choreography in those productions were fitting.
As far as the video being pulled, I have no idea about what happened.
As for me "goading". I submitted a post directed at no one and replied to a post directed at me. If when someone calls my opinion a dumb answer, then call it me goading if you want.
And as far as the last picture, I am sorry, I think you could have taken a hundred different screen shots and still made the point you were after. That is the one you chose to post and it is your blog, this is just my opinion.
and don't worry, will probably be another 6 months before my next post...
memphis,
Those happen to be the only four shots I captured. I discarded several that were too blurry or had pop up ads covering half the screen, and those were the only decent ones that remained. No mystery, no malicious intent. Believe what you want though.
"and don't worry, will probably be another 6 months before my next post..."
Not worried in the least. Have a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
I wasn't picking a fight and I apologize to you Memphis if that seems to be the case. I just really wanted some answers. Sometimes I've been called too "intense" or more often worse. The tone in my posts often times don't convey my real intentions. I'm really trying hard to remedy that. So give me a break here this time, Memphis. I admit my lack and am working hard to repent and grow and be sanctified in all areas of my life, including my communication skills. My communication skills seem to lack big time. Forgiveness requested.
But I really want to know exactly what did Steve apologize for?
Since you apparently were there, what was it that he was so offended by? Why can't you be specific? Is it because HE can't be specific? Or was he just apologetic in an effort to subdue the heat he is feeling?
And really, I am just asking, because I really want to know.
Some things just don't make sense here to me.
He apologized for the dance and said it was not appropriate?
Where has he been? This kind of performance does not happen overnight. Tons of people had to know BEFORE it took place what it was about. Such as the music director and the entire Choir, the kids parents, the orchestra and the worship team. I find it hard to believe he did not know it was to take place.
Was he away on one of his freebie trips for his whole family again?
Maybe he knew was just not prepared for the reaction.
Someone told me SG even attended one of the kids' dance rehearsals.
"Maybe he knew was just not prepared for the reaction."
Isn't that what history has shown us about about "BOB"??
From ignoring a NO TRESPASSING sign to keeping it from the congregation that a staff minister had CONFESSED to being a child molester....(and all the reactions to his decisions in between) he seems to back step after the fact.
you know....if the SBC hadn't begun teaching and stressing the authority of ministers over the church, diluting sin and it's consequences, and the church hadn't become so much like the world.....
the congregations would be reacting and responding very differently to all these types of "mistakes of the mind and not the heart."
JMO
Bellevue must be reading from the same play book as
China
John Steven Gaines tells people to call him
Bro Steve
But in reality it more like
POPE JOHN
memphis said:
As far as the video being pulled, I have no idea about what happened.
Really? No idea whatsoever? Aren't we being just a little disingenuous?
Folks let me start with this:
1. I am at BBC and have been for several years.
2. I am NOT a kool-aid drinker and well aware (maybe more than most here) of our issues over the last few years.
3. I do not follow any man, but have turned my eyes instead directly on Jesus.
4. I am part of the faithful remnant that God has called to stay and serve at Bellevue – you’d be surprised at our number.
Now with all that said - I was there that Sunday for both services. Let me be perfectly clear. There was no "writhing or cavorting" on stage and to say as much is wrong! It's ok to not like that style of worship - you are entitled to your opinions, that’s why there are different churches for you to attend with different worship styles.
How self-righteous and Pharisaical so many of you have become. NASS / New BBC Open Forum, gmommy, All2Jesus, and OC are just a few, but by no means are you alone. You have each decided you KNOW what is right and wrong and you alone are now the authorities on proper worship styles. How do you know? Why do you feel it's your right and privilege to tell the world what is going on at BBC? Is anyone going to church regularly or are any of you praying for Bellevue’s restoration? Most of you do not worship there any longer, but instead you listen to other people’s very jaded versions and then comment – that is called gossip and is WRONG. In many cases it's nothing short of slander – both are very serious sins that James warns us about. God will hold each and every one of you accountable for your words and deeds - you are trying to destroy HIS church.
Now many of you may say that BBC is not a church – how dare you??? God’s work is still being done and people are getting saved. I know, I am there serving every week. And please don’t question the validity of those salvations. You have no right, and quite frankly based on the comments on this blog, you should ask those same questions of yourselves and beg God’s forgiveness for your actions. Each of you participating on this blog and openly tearing down BBC is treading on very, very dangerous spiritual ground and I am scared for you.
Now as far as the dance and the apology:
• Yes their could have been some things done differently, like the costuming. However the decision to do the dance itself was done with a pure heart. There was not a shred of showmanship intended, instead it was done as something that was thought to be worshipful and pleasing to the Lord – additionally the idea and decision to do this dance was not made lightly, but instead was prayed over more than most of you will ever know. Again that dance may not be your style – so if you don’t like the style at BBC anymore and feel you just can’t worship there then, if God allows, go to another church and BE QUIET!! But no, instead you feel it’s your God-given right to talk (blog) here and that hurts people – especially people’s families, wives and children. How could you? How could you possibly think it is OK tear people down like this and do it so publicly?
• Lindon's words were very truthful – It’s just not believable to hear the Pastor say he did not know about the dancing. The dancers were practicing for 4+ weeks; multiple people on the staff were involved in both the preparation and rehearsals including the music staff, choir, orchestra, tech, etc. Additionally it’s no secret that the Pastor and Bro. Jamie are very close and the Pastor is very involved in the music ministry. I believe whole-heartedly (as does most everyone I know) that the Pastor was not prepared for the reaction. However, this is where it all becomes very cloudy - I can’t accuse because I am not the Pastor and don’t know what he’s thinking. What I do know is God knows his heart and He will deal with him.
Folks, there are so many important issues to be discussed - issues like the upcoming national elections. This blog has a tremendous readership and you all could do a good job of informing people about some very important issues – things like abortion, the radical homosexual agenda, and the destruction of the family. All of these will become a reality if Mr. Obama is elected. Use your powerful voice to inform people about these very crucial items. Because no matter what your personal feelings are about BBC, you KNOW you should not tear down God’s church either privately or in this very public forum.
In closing I suggest that each of you find a Bible believing church, get in the Word and seek God’s face. Then maybe he will heal you and Bellevue too.
It always amazes me how some people think they have the right to tell me what is fair game for discussion on this blog and what isn't. There are plenty of places to discuss politics, but unless the discussion happens to drift in that direction, which it could well do over the next few months, I have no desire to go there. Same with abortion and any other topic. I don't mind topic suggestions, in fact even welcome them, but if you don't like what's being discussed here, then don't come here. It's that simple.
Psalm46 (would you perchance be acquainted with Psalm43:3?), thank you for sharing your thoughts about the dancing. You raise some interesting points. Since you say you're still there and seem to have connections, perhaps you can find out the answer to the question that's been raised here several times. What exactly did Steve Gaines apologize for?
You're certainly welcome to express your opinion about that or any other topic, but declaring what should or should not be discussed here is unsolicited and unwelcome advice as is the admonition "if you don't like it, leave." The needle has about worn through that record, don't you think?
"There was no 'writhing or cavorting' on stage and to say as much is wrong!"
The video speaks for itself.
"This blog has a tremendous readership... "
I thought only a handful of disgruntled people read it.
"How self-righteous and Pharisaical so many of you have become. NASS / New BBC Open Forum, gmommy, All2Jesus, and OC are just a few, but by no means are you alone."
Well, I guess we're not alone anymore. Thanks for coming!
And, if that's what you REALLY believe...
Then I guess you came to the right place.
Make yourself at home!
Psalm46 said...
"Now many of you may say that BBC is not a church – how dare you??? God’s work is still being done and people are getting saved. I know, I am there serving every week. And please don’t question the validity of those salvations. "
Have you listened to Joe Jernigan recently as he has stated in a recent message:
"...that there are a lot of false conversions..."
If that were not so, then why does BBC do re-baptisms? Some people who have previously made a profession of faith have returned for a 2nd baptism. Why? They believed their first conversion lacked authenticity.
Psalm46 said...
"You have no right, and quite frankly based on the comments on this blog, you should ask those same questions of yourselves and beg God’s forgiveness for your actions. Each of you participating on this blog and openly tearing down BBC is treading on very, very dangerous spiritual ground and I am scared for you."
It is Steve and the administration that are actively tearing apart Bellevue. What kind of pastor demands absolute loyalty to his leadership, and then compares himself to Judas(whether light heartedly or not,it was wrong)? Unfortunately, the leadership will not listen to appeals and reason. So, the blog exists to expose the truth and hold leaders accountable.
Someday you will see a problem and when you go to the leadership and attempt to have it corrected, you will hear that famous saying:
".. you're a laymen, you don't tell an Elder what to do..."
Psalm46 said...
"Lindon's words were very truthful – It’s just not believable to hear the Pastor say he did not know about the dancing. The dancers were practicing for 4+ weeks; multiple people on the staff were involved in both the preparation and rehearsals including the music staff, choir, orchestra, tech, etc. Additionally it’s no secret that the Pastor and Bro. Jamie are very close and the Pastor is very involved in the music ministry. I believe whole-heartedly (as does most everyone I know) that the Pastor was not prepared for the reaction. However, this is where it all becomes very cloudy - I can’t accuse because I am not the Pastor and don’t know what he’s thinking. What I do know is God knows his heart and He will deal with him."
In any organization, the leader should always take responsibility for what is done. He just said "he wasn't here" (notice he didn't say he was on vacation).
If you asked Bro. Steve, would he tell you which Memphis church he attended that Sunday? He was in town but chose to attend another church other than his own.... WHY?????
Psalm46 said...
"God will hold each and every one of you accountable for your words and deeds - you are trying to destroy HIS church."
We are what???????
I don't think that Steve and David need any help
Psalm46 said...
"In closing I suggest that each of you find a Bible believing church, get in the Word and seek God’s face. Then maybe he will heal you and Bellevue too."
There's that ".. if you don't like it you can leave... " line.
What a way build a church.
What always amazes me about people like Ps.46 is that they DO and say the very thing they accuse and condemn us for.
"How self-righteous and Pharisaical so many of you ...."
(read what YOU wrote)
"Why do you feel it's your right and privilege to tell the world what is going on at BBC?"
(uhh... freedom of speech for one,25+ years there before it was hijacked for another, and that "right to an opinion" that you mentioned....
maybe those in leadership at BBC should be above reproach so you don't have to worry about what the world hears about BBC)
"God will hold each and every one of you accountable for your words and deeds - you are trying to destroy HIS church."
( the same could certainly be said to you about your words...if we believed ourselves to be as self important and all knowing as you seem to see yourself)
"and people are getting saved. I know, I am there serving every week."
(just one example of your self importance)
"Each of you participating on this blog and openly tearing down BBC is treading on very, very dangerous spiritual ground and I am scared for you."
(you would only be "scared " for us if you gave a flip and there is nothing in the words you posted to indicate you have an ounce of care or concern about anyone who dares to have an opinion different from yours or BBC..."HIS" church...where you are so sure you are part of the "faithful remnant"...
get the log out of your eye lady....you are as sinful as you accuse any of us as being)
"Then maybe he will heal you and Bellevue too."
Thank you for acknowledging that people who post and read here have been hurt.
The "healing of BBC" will take much more than OUR getting into the Word... leadership and members will have to get in the Word for there to be healing at BBC.
We just post on a blog,look out for each other when we can, study and discuss scripture together,go bowling occasionally, and consider ourselves one of HIS church communities.
MAYBE you should go spread your love and kindness elsewhere??
Ps. 46's post raises an interesting point for me. Since WHEN did BBC become a church that would allow a dance like that? And why are long-time members told to leave if they don't like the church? The members DID like the church..... the members don't like the TRANSITIONING of the church.
I can’t accuse because I am not the Pastor and don’t know what he’s thinking.
(Yet you somehow know what we are thinking....Mmmmm....but you can SEE what the "pastor" DOES,can't you??
but as long as you don't know what he is THINKING....good excuse!!)
"What I do know is God knows his heart and He will deal with him."
(if that is your position for your pastor, why wouldn't it be your position for any of us?)
Both services, huh??? Mmmmm
I agree with Psalm46 that there is a remnant still at Bellevue. And it's true...we would probably be surprised at their numbers.
However, I can't tell that they are doing anything to make a difference. Perhaps they are. Who am I to say for sure? I don't attend BBC anymore...in fact, if I was to set foot in the doors, I would probably have a security detail shadowing me, just because of my family name.
However, if there IS anyone there doing anything to stand firm against the dissipation of the testimony that the patriarchs of previous decades have established, then I pray that they will not be swept away by the overwhelming pressure of the power players that now control EVERYTHING.
Some of the closest friends my family ever had are still there, and I do not for one instance doubt their love for the Lord, their desire to do HIS will, and their committment to their children and grandchildren. However, we all know that once you surrender one piece of ground, you'll lose the battlefield eventually.
Once you excuse one behavior or sin, you can justify and rationalize the rest all the way to hell. Yes, we should forgive. Yes, we should restore. But no, we should never excuse them.
I have heard that after the PW scandal, and the mass exodus, there is a minister, Phil Newberry (who I believe to be a Godly man) who chose to stay at BBC because he realizes that now more than ever the church needs him, and needs people like him to fight against the spiritual darkness that is rapidly growing in our city, our communities, our country, and our churches.
So I support this remnant. I truly do. But I pray for them every time I think about them. I pray that they will not compromise, as so many others have done these last three years.
Psalm46 is right about another thing. We need to hit our knees, get in the Word, and pray. We need to pray for the remnant...that they will not fade into the masses, like most of our former friends have done.
Am I the only one who is annoyed by the comment assuming that none of the bloggers attend a Bible teaching church regularly? I attend almost every week. Others attend as often as they can and some prefer to have church at home where they can get peace and quiet over the loud, repetitive music that has overcome the Baptist churches. Just because we have time to blog does not mean we don't spend time in worship every week.
I'm also tired of hearing about how everything that goes on at BBC is "prayed over" and that supposedly makes everything glorifying to God. We heard early on how all the music was prayed over. I've got news for you. Every song that mentions "God" in it isn't necessarily about God and if it is about something or someone else it isn't glorifying to God at all. Shallow and repetitive music is NOT glorifying to God. Singing "I am a Friend of God" one million times in the last 2 or 3 years is NOT glorifying to God. You will never convince me so don't bother to try.
Pagan dances are not glorifying to God no matter how many times they are "prayed over." Sometimes we can talk ourselves into things being glorifying to God because we are walking in the flesh. I believe this happens to all believers at one time or another and probably more than we would ever want to admit.
Faithful remnant there may be but I don't see much change taking place. BBC is not God's church - it is SG's church. Make no mistake about it - you are the one treading on very dangerous ground by staying there. I pray you are not taking children into that building with you every week. BBC is not a safe place for children. God will deal with the situation in His timing and people will be saved because God will work through anyone He desires to work through. This does not mean the vessel is clean and pure. This just means God can still work through the reading of His Word. His Word will not return void!!!!
I BOW to bowtheknee!:)
"In closing I suggest that each of you find a Bible believing church, get in the Word and seek God’s face. "
Sorry, but if you knew scripture, you could not stay there. You could not stand it. Or, if you did, you would have to speak out about all the ridiculous twisting and ignoring of scripture that comes from that pulpit.
Where are these watchman that are still there? Why are they silent if they know scripture?
If God did not want us to deal with things here and now, He would not have written the Epistles which give us very clear instructions.
We don't have to know hearts if we know scripture. (I get very tired of hearing how we cannot know someone's heart. What on earth does that have to do with anything? If we know scripture, we can recognize twisted scriptural teaching a mile away and we have no need to 'know hearts'. )
How could the national elections be more important than scriptural truth? Once again, we see 'conservative' churches are more concerned about the political than they ar about 'purity'. God is Sovereign. And if Obama is elected it will only be because God so willed it.
How does it matter who is president when it comes to sharing the Gospel? There are people in China sharing the gospel under threat of arrest.
I won't vote for Obama. I did not vote for Clinton either but I hardly see how that is the most important issue facing us. Eternal life is the most important issue facing us. Not who is president, gas prices, etc.
Psalm46 really opened up a hornets nest. I don't see how hanging around BBC as part of a remnant will ever change anything. As long as a dictator is in charge, questions will not be tolerated and change will never happen. As to the comment that the dance thing was prayed over, I'm reminded of the comment that some prayers never get any higher than the ceiling. That must have been the case at BBC. The pastor at Two Rivers Baptist in Nashville sure made a bold decision to leave. He must have realized that once the church records were available for all to see, there would be some embarrassing things brought out into the light. By the way, our friend Rick Warren has invited both presidential candidates to his church for some sort of conference. Oh well.
psalm 46 said:
2. I am NOT a kool-aid drinker and well aware (maybe more than most here) of our issues over the last few years.
Yet you defend those serving the stuff and castigate anyone who dares question them as a bunch of Pharisees. What exactly constitutes drinking the Kool-Aid?
3. I do not follow any man, but have turned my eyes instead directly on Jesus.
This begs the question. Have you signed the loyalty covenant? Wasn't that required of all the members of the, uh... ministry you participate in?
4. I am part of the faithful remnant that God has called to stay and serve at Bellevue – you’d be surprised at our number.
By this do you simply mean everyone at BBC? Or just those with concerns over the sin in the camp but have decided it doesn't matter enough to deal with?
Lindon's words were very truthful – It’s just not believable to hear the Pastor say he did not know about the dancing.
Yes, and there's a word for this, my dear: lying. You may recall there's a commandment forbidding it. That means it a sin. It's also standard operating procedure for your pastor whenever he hits a rough patch -- much like a certain president of prevaricatory fame.
However, this is where it all becomes very cloudy - I can’t accuse because I am not the Pastor and don’t know what he’s thinking. What I do know is God knows his heart and He will deal with him.
Yes, this is the Kool-Aid packet labeled "Mistakes of The Head, Not the Heart" and it is a rather cloudy flavor. Let me clear it up for you: Sin does not operate outside the heart, it begins there.
"New BBC Open Forum said...
Speaking of banned words, let's put "Kool-Aid drinkers" and its variations on the same list. It's offensive to some and not gaining us any credibility. And yes, I know there are words from the other "side" which are just as offensive, but there's no need for anyone to stoop to that level.
4:36 PM, March 22, 2007"
Kind of like calling someone a two-penny dictator, huh?
Having standards is the same as calling someone a name? I don't understand...
And NASS, what's your take on the verse about forgiving someone who asks? Optional? To be followed sometime in the future?
And doesn't forgiveness mean not throwing it her face every chance you get?
Strange to shoot the messenger when she brings your own words, though... I suppose I'm officially branded as an enemy now, so it really doesn't matter what I write does it? But those WERE your own words, and I hope you'll consistently enforce them.
Now if you'll excuse me while I search your blog, I seem to recall a post in which you said the term "Pope Steve" was also off limits.
BTW, NASS, if you're courteous I'll tell you what Dr. Gaines 'apologized' for. I wasn't there, but I talked to some people who were. I've found that's a better way of gathering information than speculation.
Hope
PS. 46:
2. I am NOT a kool-aid drinker and well aware (maybe more than most here) of our issues over the last few years.
I guess it doesn't matter that WE didn't bring up the words.
A person who is "MORE aware of the issues over the last few years" and KNOWS people are being saved because she serves there every week AND is convinced she is part of the remnant ....used those words in her post.
Is that a problem???
I want to apologize to "Larry" who I was cranky with several months ago.
I thought Larry was wanting to be the blog police back then and for some reason, that offended me.
Larry never(to my knowledge) spent his time "searching" for things on the blog just so he could fuss about it.
To my knowledge, Larry was never cross or demanding with people either.
I just didn't know what the blog police looked like back then.
I think I do now.
"I knew that post would get back to you, so I never deleted it. I was very upset and I apologize for it. You've shown a lot of tenacity, and I'm pretty sure you weren't too injured by what I said. :)"
Hmmm... isn't that what they call a "backhanded apology"? "I apologize, but I'm sure I didn't offend you." No, dear. That was no apology.
"I want to apologize to "Larry" who I was cranky with several months ago. I thought Larry was wanting to be the blog police back then and for some reason, that offended me."
Now, that is what an apology looks like, FNH. No "buts" or "ifs" or cute remarks. Just a heartfelt apology.
"BTW, NASS, if you're courteous I'll tell you what Dr. Gaines 'apologized' for."
That's okay, sweetie. I've got my own trusted sources. Thanks anyway.
FNH, pardon me for not searching the voluminous archives for snippets of "policy" before posting. However, it was not I who broached the subject of artificially-flavored drink concoctions.
The term, of course, refers to the practice of accepting the dictums of leadership without question. That is the official policy of BBC now, as embodied in the loyalty covenant and the words of Steve Gaines: "Nowhere in the Bible do you have a layman telling those pastors (elders) what to do, but the pastors (elders) were giving the leadership." In other words, "follow and swallow." Any questions, Hope? I thought not. Finding yerself another church is such a bother!
Sorry, I ran off all the shadetree-Billy Sundays from Bratton's--it looks like they came over here to throw dirt.
By the logic of the Gaines-crowd, if Obama is elected, then it must be God's will, so you'd better shut up and like it or else move to another country.
I'm skeered fer y'all; I really am.
And you're right G-mom, if all these "remnants" are so good in extending to Gaines grace for all his high-profile foibles and craven actions--and choose to shut up and let God deal with him in His own time and in His own way--then why does the remnant not think the same is sufficient to deal with evil bloggers?
Oh, we're not elders, so let'er rip--HA!
Hey blog friends,
Be sure and click on Lin's blog to the right of the front page...
coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/
Really really good post from by an up and coming young "evangelist"!!!
This person "gets it"!!
You'll be blessed!!!
Nass, "sweetie", there were no 'buts' attached to my apology. A 'but' would have a stipulation that would nullify it, but mine did not. Interpret my words however you want, but I'm sure an intelligent woman such as yourself is aware that believing something doesn't mean it's true. I'm curious as to why, given the choice, you choose to believe the worst about me.
I hardly think reminding you of your own rules makes me the police, but if there was ever a blog that needed a policeman, it's this one. Since you don't want to know what I heard, I won't share it. It's probably not a good idea to pass along second hand information anyway. I might end up writing something that's complete and utter nonsense, like this:
emptyseat said...
Steve Gaines, Bellevue, and Rick Warren. Bring more and more of the world into the church to bring people in instead of preaching the Word and letting God build his church.
Bellevue will soon be replacing the world in the west entrance by the bookstore.
Here are the following changes that will take place very soon:
* The world which has symbolized world evangelism for Bellevue will soon be replaced with couches.
*Part of the bookstore will be reduced and replaced with a new coffee shop (out of rick warrens playbook)
*Library will be reduced in size as well to help accomodate the coffee shop.
*A new escalator will be installed where the big steps are now located.
*The reception counter will be replaced with signage that says "Boxoffice"
*Bellevue will continue to advertise and push the sale of tickets to make thier productions moneymakers.
*The new mall look will be more seeker friendly to the world.
*Look for the crosses to be coming down soon. There are many in leadership that have agreed they are very offensive to Memphis.
3:49 PM, February 17, 2008
I didn't have to search for that, I remember reading it because it's such utter foolishness. And it's there for as long as the blog is. We used to call them lies, but now they're just opinions, right?
It doesn't really matter what we write, since no one knows who we are.
Hope Patterson
all2jesus said...
FNH, pardon me for not searching the voluminous archives for snippets of "policy" before posting. However, it was not I who broached the subject of artificially-flavored drink concoctions.
The term, of course, refers to the practice of accepting the dictums of leadership without question. That is the official policy of BBC now, as embodied in the loyalty covenant and the words of Steve Gaines: "Nowhere in the Bible do you have a layman telling those pastors (elders) what to do, but the pastors (elders) were giving the leadership." In other words, "follow and swallow." Any questions, Hope? I thought not. Finding yerself another church is such a bother!
4:20 PM, July 31, 2008
al,
Forgive me for not being intimidated into silence by your eloquence and persuasive arguments, but I do have a question. Or I should say, a comment. Whenever someone jumps to incorrect conclusions and has absolutely no clue what they're talking about, I tend to disregard everything that say from then on and dismiss everything they've said beforehand.
I left Bellevue a long time ago, when IDC was trying to grab the rolls. I don't even live in Memphis anymore, and I didn't find it a bother at all to find a church. I just went where I felt led. And I have to say I'm feeling led away from this blog after the (typically) warm reception I received.
I'm not quite sure what to make of this thread, anyway. Pope Steve is a monarch, but the king kowtowed to pressure from the leadership who signed loyalty covenants that they'd never question him? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Kool aid comes in lots of flavors, I guess.
Thanks everyone for blessing me with your love today, and I hope you all have a wonderful night.
HP
I guess time will tell, huh? I heard from a "non-evil-blogger" source who heard it from someone on the inside -- i.e. staff -- that those plans were in the works. Now, that doesn't mean any of those things will ever come to pass, just that plans for some of those things were apparently discussed at the administrative staff level (I think the one about the crosses was only a rumor), but I'm sure "emptyseat" was convinced s/he had a credible source or else s/he wouldn't have posted that.
Why exactly do you derive so much pleasure from coming here just to berate us? I would think a fine Christian woman such as yourself would be out doing something more productive with her time.
"It doesn't really matter what we write, since no one knows who we are."
If your name is "Hope Patterson," mine is Little Orphan Annie. So no one knows who you are either. It's not nice to deceive people that way.
"And I have to say I'm feeling led away from this blog after the (typically) warm reception I received."
Nobody ever forced you to come here. Don't let the door hit you in the backside on the way out.
Hope,
Now I know who you remind me of! You're like "arminius" -- in drag.
Hello all -
I've read all of the comments you've directed at yesterday's post, and later I will address them more specifically. However I didn't see anyone comment on this so if you would all be so kind, I'd truly appreciate a direct answer to this:
- Do you think that it's edifying to the body of Christ to tear down a man, church - or anyone for that matter - in a public forum (i.e.the blog) anonymous or not?
"Whenever someone jumps to incorrect conclusions and has absolutely no clue what they're talking about, I tend to disregard everything that say from then on and dismiss everything they've said beforehand."
Me too Hope Patterson!
"And I have to say I'm feeling led away from this blog after the (typically) warm reception I received."
Have you tried actually commenting and being respectful to anyone?????
Instead of telling everyone off and exactly what they SHOULD believe and do because you are the only one who is holy enough to really know????
People usually get what they give,"sweetie"..... we've been pretty patient.
You appear to be very angry...that's not our responsibility.
Thank you,
Helen Kramer
Sweet Cakes!!!!
You're funny!!!!
I'm skeered...... but not enough to leave the country:)
yo yo baby!
psalm 46,
Hmmm... I suppose that depends on your definition of "tear down." But before I answer your question -- I want to think about it before I post (which is not bad advice for any of us) -- let me ask you a question. Is it okay for a pastor to berate his sheep in front of another church and to verbally beat them from the pulpit in the manner Steve Gaines repeatedly has? Is that not "tearing down in a public forum"?
I'm also sincerely interested in what you believe the "restoration" of Bellevue looks like at this point. "Restore" to what? To hear SG and others talk, Bellevue is doing just fine now. So I'm really not sure what you and the other "remnant" are trying to restore.
FNH said...
Forgive me for not being intimidated into silence by your eloquence and persuasive arguments,
Awww, shucks...
but I do have a question. Or I should say, a comment. Whenever someone jumps to incorrect conclusions and has absolutely no clue what they're talking about, I tend to disregard everything that say from then on and dismiss everything they've said beforehand.
I see. I'm an idiot because I don't know your exact situation. Go on...
I left Bellevue a long time ago, when IDC was trying to grab the rolls. I don't even live in Memphis anymore, and I didn't find it a bother at all to find a church. I just went where I felt led. And I have to say I'm feeling led away from this blog after the (typically) warm reception I received.
Most people who come here only to object are still members of BBC. I apologize for jumping to such an unreasonable conclusion. And I really wish you'd stay. We need the warmth.
I'm not quite sure what to make of this thread, anyway. Pope Steve is a monarch, but the king kowtowed to pressure from the leadership who signed loyalty covenants that they'd never question him? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Kool aid comes in lots of flavors, I guess.
Are you suggesting Steve didn't want the loyalty oaths, but other "leadership" insisted and the poor fellow could only go along? And you mean to say he never wanted that bit about compulsory tithing? Now that I think about it, you're right, it doesn't sound a bit like him. And I'm the King of Bahrain.
"Most of you do not worship there any longer, but instead you listen to other people’s very jaded versions and then comment –
that is called gossip and is WRONG. In many cases it's nothing short of slander – both are very serious sins that James warns us about.
God will hold each and every one of you accountable for your words and deeds - you are trying to destroy HIS church.
You have no right, and quite frankly based on the comments on this blog, you should ask those same questions of yourselves and beg God’s forgiveness for your actions.
Each of you participating on this blog and openly tearing down BBC is treading on very, very dangerous spiritual ground and I am scared for you.
How self-righteous and Pharisaical so many of you have become. NASS / New BBC Open Forum, gmommy, All2Jesus, and OC are just a few, but by no means are you alone.
so if you don’t like the style at BBC anymore and feel you just can’t worship there then, if God allows, go to another church and BE QUIET!!
In closing I suggest that each of you find a Bible believing church, get in the Word and seek God’s face. Then maybe he will heal you and Bellevue too."
WOW!!!
Are your words to us edifying ???
Who knew!???????
If your name is "Hope Patterson," mine is Little Orphan Annie.
I've gone by Hope for nearly 4 years now. If you've really talked to someone who knows me, you know why. If you feel inclined to share my given name, it won't offend me but I wish you wouldn't. That's not who I am anymore.
gmommy,
I've avoided talking to you in the past, but you're exactly right. These are difficult days, and I'm very angry. I shouldn't post when I'm like that.
I promise that the next time I have a really good day I'll come back just to post something postive.
Hope
Psalms,
Your question falls under the a priori fallacy, and your choice of signifier "tear down" reveals a presumption that you accept as a fact, yet is disputed.
Most thinking people aren't so willing to find much value in engaging a priori fallacies.
"Forgive me for not being intimidated into silence by your eloquence and persuasive arguments, but I do have a question. Or I should say, a comment. Whenever someone jumps to incorrect conclusions and has absolutely no clue what they're talking about, I tend to disregard everything that say from then on and dismiss everything they've said beforehand."
That statement is so lame. It stinks with self righteousness. The person who wrote that asks for forgiveness in advance, knowing full well what he/she is about to do, then goes right on ahead and does it, making a judgment showing utter contempt and unforgiveness towards a child of God.
Sounds like the "indulgences" of the early Catholic church. Get absolved in advance, then feel free to do your dirty. Maybe there is a Pope in Memphis. If that post is an example of what one has learned from him, I am now certain that if there is no Pope in Memphis, there is at least a BOB straining for "popedom".
Well, "cakes" just saved me the trouble of penning a reply. Of course, mine didn't contain the words "priori fallacy"!
Ditto what he said.
Now Nass, that's "a priori" (L., from the former); Latin needs all its bits to work properly.
Hope,
That was very nice for you to respond like that....thank you!!!
Life is so stinking hard... and "good " days are rare.
None of us have any desire to know or expose your real name.
There is a core group on this blog who are really friends...in person.
There are several I consider friends who I don't see in person. We really do care and help each other in real life and that is why we still meet on this blog.
We don't make it our business to comment about what other blogs talk about. And we don't want to hurt you.
But it does become difficult to be nice when responding to bossy ugly comments.
I'm sorry you are having a tough time. I hope things get better soon!:)
emptyseat said...
"...*Part of the bookstore will be reduced and replaced with a new coffee shop (out of rick warrens playbook)"
faithnhope said...
"I didn't have to search for that, I remember reading it because it's such utter foolishness. And it's there for as long as the blog is. We used to call them lies, but now they're just opinions, right?
It doesn't really matter what we write, since no one knows who we are.
Hope Patterson"
If you don't think this is possible why don't you read DC 2008 finiancal report where it says:
".... This year our Bookstore operated at a $69,000 LOSS due to a decrease on sale compared to a breakeven in 2006-2007. EXPENSES have been adjusted to bring operating back to breakeven."
So whatever "adjusted" means???
People are buying less reading material due to drop in attendance thus a "NEW" non church look will be needed. Just like the new College Center down on Popular with LCDTV's and the none of that Christ look that would threaten non believers.
Thank you, "cakes," but I think I would have used the word "a" somewhere! :-)
I have a friend who has been really working on self restraint. It's nice to see a friend grow :)
You know, I was talking with a blog friend today- yes, many of us have become dear friends in real life- and she asked what I thought about this thread. Bottom line is I just don't know what to say. In my opinion, there is no reason whatsoever for a dance display like this, period. Culturally, Baptists have not danced to begin with, which is an interesting take. Secondly, why does Sunday morning have to have all this "stuff?" Isn't the Word of God and some hymns from the Word of God enough?
And for some of the recent discussion.....it never ceases to amaze me that folks can't take personal responsibility for their actions. If someone things we are wrong and it is a waste to be here....then why come??? I NEVER go to the BBlog because it makes me crazy. Therefore, I just don't go. This blog is trying to point out issues with our churches, BBC in particular, and if someone doesn't like it, they need to not come. :)
This is said in true kindness.
CSBCer,
"This is said in true kindness."
I've never known you to say anything any other way....on the blog or in person.:)
Dr. Rogers once said when he received an angry letter, sometimes from members, complaining about how the church was run, he would look to the bottom for the name. If it was signed anonymously, he would disregard the letter's contents because its author didn't sign his name.
if you are so adamant about your cause, then put your real name behind it. its easy to post behind a screen name. but its not worth much.
and if you're reading this now, thinking of what witty come back to reply with, i ask you,
Why don't you take your finger off that mouse, and go tell someone about Jesus? He is, after all, The Way, The Truth, and The Life, the only mediator between man and God. the ONLY hope for men to be saved.
So, which is more important to you?
Replying to some young guy who said something you didn't like?
Or sharing with someone, how they no longer have to live, without hope?
He Lives, Aaron King
gmommy said:
CSBCer,
"This is said in true kindness."
I've never known you to say anything any other way....on the blog or in person.:)
Yep. That's a fact. And I know, and this would be a miracle...but I want to be like her. I want that kind of heart.
Just sayin'.
oc.
"if you are so adamant about your cause, then put your real name behind it."
Yawn. We've been down this path before. There are nuts out there. Some of us have encountered them. Is Bellevue worth putting my life or my family's lives on the line? I think not.
But if our opinions aren't worth anything, why was the latest video pulled from Bellevue's archives and then from Veoh? Don't tell me "copyright violation" as I've already provided a list of a dozen or so other Bellevue videos that have been up for months or years. And why do any of you armchair critics of this blog bother reading it? I mean, really, if our opinions are so worthless, why do any of you care? Why don't you just leave us alone to wallow in the mud? Your words and your actions don't match up.
"Why don't you take your finger off that mouse, and go tell someone about Jesus?"
Why don't YOU?
New BBC Open Forum said...
I mean, really, if our opinions are so worthless, why do any of you care? Why don't you just leave us alone to wallow in the mud?
'Cuz of their great love, of course! :)
Really? Who knew???
Junk: LOL
Junk,
You just HAVE to be on my bowling team!!!!!! PLEEEASE!!!!!!!
Speaking of BOWLING.....where is Lynn??????
Looking over my posts from yesterday, I realized that a critical element is missing: love. I have nothing to retract, per se, but I am reminded by scripture that simply being right is not enough. For that I ask your forgiveness, particularly Psalm46 and Hope. I pray that God's grace will light your way.
Back on topic (the dance number), I unexpectedly happened upon this quote:
"Why is this? Whence this distaste for the ordinary services of the sanctuary? I believe that the answer, in some measure, lies in a direction little suspected. There has been a growing pandering to sensationalism; and, as this wretched appetite increases in fury the more it is gratified, it is at last found to be impossible to meet its demands. Those who have introduced all sorts of attractions into their services have themselves to blame if people forsake their more sober teachings, and demand more and more of the noisy and the singular. Like dram-drinking, the thirst for excitement grows. At first, the fiery
spirit may be watered down; but the next draught of it must be stronger, and soon it is required to be overproof. The customary gin-drinker wants something stronger than the pure spirit, deadly though the draught may be. One said, as she tossed off her glass, ‘Do you call that gin? Why, I know a place where,
for threepence, I can get a drink that will burn your very soul out!’ Yes, gin leads on to vitriol; and the sensational leads to the outrageous, if not to the blasphemous. I would condemn no one, but I confess that I feel deeply grieved at some of the inventions of modern mission work."
-- C. H. Spurgeon
... pandering to sensationalism ...
That's it...that's what has been happening in our churches and what has felt so wrong.
Yeah! Where did the "reverence" go?
"Dr. Rogers once said when he received an angry letter, sometimes from members, complaining about how the church was run, he would look to the bottom for the name. If it was signed anonymously, he would disregard the letter's contents because its author didn't sign his name."
Yeah, I have heard that, too, from many mega church pastors. What they don't tell you is that they ALWAYS have someone read them because many times an anonymous letter can have threats in it and they definitely want to know about those!
By the way, how did he know they were angry letters if he or one of his staff did not read them? (wink)
Lin,
He didn't say he didn't read them, just that he disregarded the contents. I can understand the sentiment, especially since some folks can use anonymity as an excuse for communicating differently than they would face-to-face (think Ace). But we all know there can be a time and place for anonymous communications in order to keep the focus on the issues and not personalities and prejudices.
But we all know there can be a time and place for anonymous communications in order to keep the focus on the issues and not personalities and prejudices.
4:24 PM, August 01, 2008
Like the Federalist Papers? Everyone was so busy trying to ruin the reputations of each other that no one would have discussed the issues!
Using a pen name to get issues discussed in public was a very common occurance in the early days of our Republic.
Sorry about misunderstanding the Rogers quote. I know several mega church pastors who claim they never read anon letters but truth is their staff does just in case there are threats in them. Of course these are men who have bodyguards at church.
Interpretive dance in a Sunday morning worhsip service is intended to be a top draw for the worldly lost folks who need a feel good place to attend in lieu of a gospel preaching chruch. It's all about "being like the world" not BEING APART FROM THE WORLD.
Concerned said:
Culturally, Baptists have not danced to begin with, which is an interesting take.
News Flash:
BBC is now Assembly of God (sorry to any bloggers or lurkers who are of the conservative wing of AOG) - hence the kneeling down front and in the aisles, the holding out of arms toward a certain person during prayer, the dance number, swaying/dancing during the music etc. Unfortunately many once conservative Baptist churches are moving in this direction. Also we always have to have a "clapping song." Apparently music is not really worship without swaying, clapping, dancing, etc.
Aaron, I used to post under my full name and sometimes sign my name at the bottom of the posts but got really tired of being taken out of context by certain people. I get less annoyed if someone uses the name "bowtheknee" and then takes me out of context. If anyone wants to email me (addy in profile), I would probably come clean about who I am.
Forgive me if we have discussed this and I have forgotten.
Has anyone visited First Baptist Church Fisherville???
Pastor is Jack Moore??
They have on their website the terms.....Sunday School, RA's and GA's.
There are no pics of any staff and I don't think it said if it was an old or new church and no idea if large or small but some of the terms used seemed more traditional Baptist.
I know the minister of music (who is pretty new at this church)is a trained musician
(meaning classically....I'm thinking a cooler version of Tommy Lane...maybe not AS progressive and roll with the flow as Jim W))
Does anyone know anything????
Channel 24 (Memphis) is airing the memorial service for weatherman Brian Teigland right now. It's being broadcast on Bellevue's website as well -- http://www.bellevue.org. Click on "Watch Now."
Gmommy,
I have some friends who used to be in BBC choir who joined Fisherville a long time ago and LOVE it. They told me as far as the music goes there is "something for everyone." I had wanted to visit there but just never have. I may be mistaken but I think both the pastor and music minister or maybe one of the other ministers are Mid Amer grads. You can find that info out on their website.
Most of you probably know the pastor at Ellendale Baptist is also a Mid Amer grad. One of our bloggers graciously made me some cds of the sermons since I still have so slooooooow dial up and can't listen online. He seems very solid. We have many friends who have joined there as well.
Dr. Kirk Kilpatrick preaches at Beaver Creek Baptist Church (I think!) but it is on the other side of the world from where we live. If I lived in Bartlett area I would drive there - he's an OT scholar and really a great guy!
It might be fun to have a field trip to Dr K's church.
BTK..
I did look at the website.... 2 are from Mid...the one I know is from Southwestern.
Oops! I made a mistake. The pastor and youth minister of Fisherville FBC are both from Mid America. The new music minister is not from there but does sound like he has great credentials. The pastor, assoc pastor and music minister have all been in the ministry a long time so that might be a good place to visit.
I heard from a blogger friend who goes to Ellendale and has gotten to know their pastor. Everyone I know who has joined there has great things to say about that church!
If I hunt, I bet I can find a saintly graduate, even coming from SWBTS.
If I hunt, I bet I can find a heretic from there also.
The same is exactly true for Mid America.
I get kinda nervous when I hear people trust an institution, as if every product coming from there is
stamped with the approval by God.
Just sayin'.
oc.
OC,
I have no trust what so ever in any institutions mentioned...at all.
gmommy,
I knew that about you. I knew that about bowtheknee. I wasn't worried about you, nor bowtheknee, nor others that post here. I was worried about those who see, but don't post. I know your trust is in Him, and I'm surely not worried about you nor bowtheknee as far as your trust goes. Keep doing what you are doing. Trust only in Him.
I just don't want any other to misunderstand the "trust" issue.
I know you and bowtheknee, so I'm not in any way
distressed about either one of your intentions. I just wanted to make sure that others know that none of us are trusting in no one else other than the Lord.
Just me, Gmommy.
I'm just a little goofy sometimes.
oc.
OC and others,
I did not mean to say that I only trust Mid America pastors. My pastor is from New Orleans Seminary. I only meant that the pastors who are teachers and/or grads of Mid Amer that I have heard preach seem very solid. I support Mid America financially and prayerfully and hope that they always stay on the narrow path. So many seminaries are becoming so liberal - many were liberal 40 years ago. This is why Mid America was started. Founders Days are coming up August 18-20. If anyone reading this has never been, you should plan to go this year. During the evening service on August 18th, Dr. Gray Allison will tell of the founding of Mid America. It is a riveting story! Also Dr. Spradlin will preach and Jim Whitmire is scheduled to lead the music. I hope to see Lily and some other bloggers there!!!! We will also start back our Wednesday morning Bible study in September I think. Breakfast is $4.00 and it is free on your first visit. We go slowly through a book of the Bible. Breakfast starts at 6:30 and the study starts at 7:00. We are usually finished by 7:40. If you miss the fellowship of a SS class, come join us! It has become SS to me.
The Aug 18th service sounds great!!!!
Evening means NOT in the morning...right???
That could be a nice place for us to worship together!
HOW do you get there at 6:30 AM, BTK??
I can't imagine being anywhere at 6:30 AM.
....again...I bow to you :)
It's just more of the "seeker" sensative movement thats tainted the SBC and btw....Dr. Adrian Rogers addressed the seeker movement in his sermon titled "God vs. Humanity. This sermon is part of the Foundations of Our Faith series on the book of Romans. It is an excellent sermon.
I wish I had something interesting to say tonight, but I don't.
:)
Now, that's interesting.
:)
Man, I'm getting worried Junk. Just you and me here. Did the rapture happen, and we are left behind?
Nope...I'm always around.
I think my laptop has become my blankie.
WHAT was going on at Bellevue today? I've never seen the parking lot that packed -- ever!
Maybe they called in full security in response to a dangerous and threatening act...
Maybe a 15 year old girl threatened Steve with some lip gloss or eye-liner or something.
You can never be too careful, don't you know...
I'm sure it wasn't in response to something minor...like a pedophile on the grounds...
From the front of this week's BellevueToday, is this representative of what's happened at Bellevue -- a mass exodus of the sheep?
Kinda reminds me of the "interpretative" dance.
Things that make you go hmmmm.
It it one of those "don't let it hit you where the good Lord split you" moments?
Errr...
I second that, Nass....gross.
New BBC Open Forum said...
WHAT was going on at Bellevue today? I've never seen the parking lot that packed -- ever!
6:59 PM, August 07, 2008
I think there was some sort of teachers meeting going on today. I heard about it on the radio this morning because the traffic reporter had to report A TRAFFIC JAM at I-40 and Appling.
Careful, OC, looks like the ladies' sensibilities aren't going to appreciate certain kinds of humor tonight.
Not as gross as what happened and was subsequently dismissed as nothing, as if nothing happened at Bellevue Baptist Church.
Gross is when people excuse and deny that sexual perversion has happened under their watch, and then holler that it was only once, and it can't be proven that the perp violated anyone else in the mean time, just because no accountability measures existed at that time. That's what is "gross".
OK, I got it Junk. Thanks.
Agreed, "oc."
We'll be laughing as soon as we see some (humor), "junkster." Which reminds me, where's "padroc" or Dr. Loney?
NASS.....Where have you been?
Don't you think that this must be from the pastor's family photo album!!!
If I remember the moment correctly this photo was taken one Sunday afternoon as many of us had said our final good byes to some of our dear friends and even some close family members, as our Shepherd, the Lord Jesus, led us to new and safer ground.
Some recall this time with varying perspectives. Some were very down cast for the loss of so many fellowships. Others were rejoicing for the new opportunity to follow Jesus more closely. And others left and took note, realizing that this is one of the most recent and memorable appearances of our Lord Jesus as he led us away!!!
Sad?
At his point in history, I do not think so.
Jesus has led so many of us to so many different fellowships. I think he may have done this so that He could build His church according to His will. So many former members of BBC are now serving and bringing their worship in churches all over the region. This has been God’s plan. This photo is now just a memory. For some it is a reminder of looking forward. For some it is now a memory of “where did they go and why”.
Pache!
Padroc
Thanks "New BBC Open Forum" for sharing your "opinion". It is, after all, your blog, so you get to decide what's "funny" and what's "over the top".
There should be no humor nor laughter nor rejoicing as long as people we love are being hurt by the people we love. Can't we see the sickness in this?
What the heck are ladies' sensibilities?
No, the love of Padroc, and the humor of Dr. Loney, we do not deserve. We are dealing with sin, and it never has a pretty side. We don't deserve a Padroc to comfort us, we don't deserve a Dr. Loney to humor us. We just need to feel the pain. Even if it's not our own doing. I think this is a season of hurting. But don't lay down and give up and die, cause there's another season comin'.
oc.
Okay, you're right, "junk." Let's let "the people" decide if this is funny or not. I vote not. In spite of the ugly things some people have said about "us" and the claims by a few self-righteous individuals that the NBBCOFers are unregenerate troublemakers, I am not going to return the insult. Saying that everyone still at Bellevue would have been left behind if the rapture had occurred today is neither funny nor called for. This seems so out of character for you. But as I said, we'll let everyone judge for himself.
junkster said...
So, if OC is right, the rapture happened ... but it doesn't appear to have reduced the number of cars in Bellevue's parking lot. Anybody surprised?
Buuuwaaaaahahahahahaha!
8:41 PM, August 07, 2008
Yeah, "NASS", I'm sure everyone will find it hilarious after that wonderful introduction.
Are you seriously going to say my silly little remark (which was CLEARLY in jest, and CLEARLY implied as much about me being left behind as anyone else) was more "uncalled for" than all the tripe that has passed through your filters with nary a peep?
Get real.
Please, my beloved friends.
If anyone deserves to be left behind, it would be me. And I would wave to you as you ascended. I love you guys, please don't fret with one another. Just love one another, please.
oc.
hey...can we all just get along ???? :) :)
is it cranky night????
hey ...remember the FUN night we were "one upping" each other with our "tuff stories"....
piglet kicked us all with her hairspay and baseball bat stories!! and CSBCer came in second with her 3 babies in 3 minutes reality show!! ...
Now THAT was funny!!!!
OK...don't let the sun go down on any anger....hugs to all...nighty!!! :)
nighty night gmommy and nass.
Sweet dreams to all...
Happy Crazy 8s day folks
Greetings from China!!!
Because of the strict censorship of the Chinese regime, you probably were not allowed to see my portion of carrying the torch. Trust me, it was glorious. Imagine yours truly in a red, white, and blue speedo...uh, more like a thong, (shirtless of course) galloping proudly atop the Great Wall...the cheers, the applause... that is until I dropped it and bent over to pick it up...the gasps, the faintings, the spontaneous vomiting...well you get the picture.
It was at that point that some uniformed soldiers ripped it from my hands and then commenced to beat me unmercifully about the head and neck area with batons and little Chinese flags.
Undaunted, yet very dazed, I wrapped some kerosene soaked gauze around my vestigial tail...and with my new torch ablaze I continued my run to a nearby village. Imagine my joy and surprise when I discovered that one of the farmers had an upstairs straw bungalow above his cart garage for rent. And what's more, they do not even have an unlicensed medical practitioner specializing in semi dangerous/ highly painful and unnecessary cosmetic procedures. While they can only pay me in chickens and used 'Hannah Montana' T-shirts, I think this looks promising enough to cop a squat for a time. Surprisingly, AT&T has pretty good wireless coverage even in this remote village. Something tells me that US/Chinese relations are never gonna be the same.
William T. Loney-son, MD
PS...concerning the endearing new name that my new neighbors have given me...What does Yeti mean?
This is in Bellevue Today for the week of August 10:
Gyms B and C in the GRACE
Family Life Center will be closed
on Saturday, August 16, from
9:00 a.m.-4:00 p.m. Bellevue
will be hosting a “Bellevue Loves
Memphis” Back-to-School event.
That's nice and all, but why isn't it listed on the calendar for the week? If "Bellevue" is hosting it, who exactly will be there to love on Memphis, and what Memphians have been invited to be loved on?
just wonderin'
"Surprisingly, AT&T has pretty good wireless coverage even in this remote village.
Well, you know what they say... "more bars in more places."
Something tells me that US/Chinese relations are never gonna be the same.
So true, Dr. Loney-son, so true!
Yeti?
On a totally and completely unrelated note, I went to the Doctor recently and saw this poster on the wall by the billing desk.
:oD
Proverbs 17:22 says, "A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a broken spirit dries up the bones."
Here's "tn_lizzie's" link.
NASS,
I realize by the number that this is THE Dr. Bill Loney, but I am amused that he is showing signs of dementia as he has known in the past what a Yeti (Yetti) is as evidenced by this old posting. And I quote thusly:
"Dr. Bill Loney said...
I refuse to be a prisoner in my own abandoned Dairy Queen walk in freezer!
The shirt's coming off, I'm putting on my jogging speedos and green chuck taylor hi-tops, and I'm going for a late nite jog. (And ladies, please refrain from carnal thoughts)
BIGFOOT...IT'S GO-TIME BABY!!!
WTL, MD
PS...if you should read of my violent demise at the hands of the Texas Yetti, please donate my '81 El Camino to charity"
11:40 PM, May 26, 2007
Padroc,
You might have a lil' too much spare time on your hands.
It must have been their pronuciation that confused me, though confusion is a state that I'm a registered voter in (and have been urged to run for office).
I think that they must have given me that nickname because I too am a character of legend and folklore (at least on Loney Mountain) and have been known to evoke fear in small children and the elderly. Also, because I have run over a couple of villagers in my new '78 el cartimino, that I won fair and square from my farmer landlord in a game of 3 chicken montey. BTW, my upstairs cart garage bungalow is mighty sweet...just a couple of more Rerun (from what's happening! fame) posters to hang.
In a breaking story from our village's 'Asian Poverty Gazette', there were several bigfoot sightings along the torch bearer rout that I ran on that same day. Here we go again!!
This time, I'm sure that the locals will assist in the capture of this menace. In the meantime, I will definitely keeps my eyes open and tail tucked.
As Uncle Cindy used to say:
"Good things come to those who wait...except if you wait too long in one position, cause that could lead to pressure ulcers, and that could lead to infection and necrosis, and then we'd have to get the maggot jar out, and while it's fun to watch, it just don't smell too good"
A Priceless nugget, Uncle Cindy, a priceless nugget.
William T. Loney, MD
Gmommy,
Come to my "rescue" from Dr. Bill's accusation that I have to much spare time on my hands.
Go ahead and tell him of my ridiculous memory for tangential events and my previous fixation on meeting Dr. WBL in person, which previously compelled me to dwell on the minutia of his uncharitable existence in the cosmos. Spare time….. Hum Bug!!
I hope you all had as an incredible message by your pastor as I had from mine today. Dr. Jerry Harmon taught from III John and again (don't you just love God's agains) I was convicted that it is Christ who is to be preeminent (Colossians 1:18) and not me as illustrated in the life and attitudes of Diotrephes in III John 9-10.
This week, may each of your moments be filled to overflowing with gratitude for God’s mercy and love as each of us does battle with so many uncertainties and “little green people” in our lives.
Padroc
New BBC Open Forum said...
WHAT was going on at Bellevue today? I've never seen the parking lot that packed -- ever!
As Lynn said, it was a back-to-school teachers meeting, which my daughter had the dubious pleasure of attending. I understand there was also a ladies event led by Donna Gaines going on at the same time. Maybe that explains why they made the teachers park over by the soccer fields even though there were plenty of spaces near the building.
Steve himself was the opening speaker and he explained the event wasn't just some photo op (though plenty of pix were being taken, with a photographer even up on the platform). No, this was to demonstrate that Bellevue really does Love Memphis. (Uh, we just don't want you parking too close.)
After this, the sanctuary was turned over to school officials. Among other things they made a strong push for the NEA, urging teachers to join. You may recall NEA's agenda includes support for abortion, homosexual marriage, nationalized health care, guaranteed housing and a host of other liberal causes including disproportionate contributions to Democrat candidates. This is what Bellevue now allows to be promoted from its pulpit? Is it any wonder scripture warns us not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers?
Regarding the platform, do you really find it suprising that the NEA would support family planning, sex education, equal access to medical care, protection for same-sex unions and electing democrats; or against the proliferation of automatic weapons (are Christian Conservatives for automatic weapons?)? The lady in the piece said it all--if the agenda so offends one's theology, then that person has a right to suspend support for the union. America is not a theocracy--never has been.
Is it suprising that educators overwhelmingly support Democrats? Let's see, Republicans have been hostile to unions in general and craft education legislation while conspicuously shunning the imput of educators--while their unfunded mandates (NCLB) impact us significantly. (I claimed $2400 spent out of my pocket as an educator last year--don't be fooled, every teacher dips into their own wallet) So like most of the electorate, they'll vote for the person who they think has their best interests at heart. After all, if someone slaps me up side the head, I'll most likely not seek to embrace and keep at least an arms length from him.
Have you seen the statistics on Abstinance Only sex education? Religious beliefs aside, it is arguable that once teens engage in sexual activity, Abstinance Only measures are impotent. I never have understood the chasm between Christian Conservative's opposition to sex education, condoms, etc. while likewise vehemently opposing abortion. It seems more of the former might lead to less of the latter.
After my divorce, I existed without medical insurance, checkups or care of any kind for four years, until an emergency sent me running for it and eventual poverty, then homelessness. So I know most Christian conservatives don't want universal healthcare, but they probably already got theirs. Have you seen the statistics on the death rate for the poor, when they could have benefited from early detection, but were in the same boat as me a few years ago?
Yes, I think my friend--and his partner--who died last year should have the same legal protection and benefits as Britney Spears and Kevin Federline, when their union had more love and commitment than 2/3s of the heterosexual unions that end in divorce. What exactly are you trying to preserve anyway?
As to public school events at Bellevue, I support the 1st Amendment.
I love y'all but had to offer my two cents.
Isn't the NEA one of those groups that is also against people Homeschooling their kids?
Call me nuts here, but I think there are a good number of Christian parents that homeschool their kids.
Has anybody heard what's up with THIS:
(posted on the BBC website employment page)
http://www.bellevue.org/templates/cusbellevue1103/details.asp?id=1360&PID=152046
a DENTAL CLINIC??
Cakes,
I will speak for myself in response to your post.
This Christian does not want my right to own a gun (not sure about the "automatic" term) dictated or taken from me by the government.
I believe I should be able to protect myself in my home if I so choose.
I absolutely believe it is wrong to show hate or shunning to homosexuals ...BUT it is virtually impossible to believe in the biblical account of creation(as in Adam and Eve) and also accept without question or reservation that 2 same sex people are designed to be married or sexual partners.
(PLEASE note here...I am speaking of creation without the CR twists and turns concerning Adam over Eve)
The reason this Christian might be opposed to sex ed in school ....
(my kids didn't attend public school so this is not an area I have done a lot of homework in recently)
Morals and values should reflect the beliefs of the parent in early training of their child...not something mandated by the gov. to the school.
It is the responsibility of the parent and family not the school or teachers or government.
I was offended (and made it known)when the private school my children attended tried to teach extra biblical interpretations.
I teach and train my children to reflect our family's belief system.
There is plenty of time for our children to be influenced by outside forces but the early training shouldn't be institutionalized.
I also understand that parents have failed miserably to teach and train their children...but the answer for me would never be to turn that responsibility over to the state or to the school.
I don't know the answers for the children that have parents that don't care.
I personally cannot accept the attitude...."kids are ALL going to do drugs and have sex...so lets teach them it is OK and how to maybe not kill themselves while doing it all"
CAkes, I agree with you that the whole health care system stinks....my children and I have both gone without insurance for periods of time and the private insurance I have now is not great and not reasonable.
I also know that certain "democratic states" have decent, affordable options for health care. I may have to move North for that very reason since I am not getting any younger :)
In the democratic state my dear friend lives in ...all children are covered and the process is NOTHING like Tn care... or whatever Tn. has now.
Lower income adults pay an adjusted amount according to their income that is REASONABLE and is just like having regular good insurance. There is no shame connected to this policy and the care is excellent.
I don't have solutions for these problems but I sure don't want to turn personal responsibility over to a corrupt government system.
You know I love you to, Cakes!!!!
If by "automatic" you mean assault weapons, I agree. No one needs an AK-47 to hunt or for any other legitimate purpose. However, I own a Browning 9mm semi-automatic pistol. If someone breaks into my house or tries to harm my family, he may very well find himself staring down the barrel of said pistol (or another equally-capable firearm). If it comes down to a choice of him or me or a member of my family, guess who's going to win.
Cakes,
You are, of course, entitled to your opinions. I was only trying to point out the irony that an organization which is diametrically opposed to Christian beliefs on many issues was promoted from the Bellevue pulpit and that this is the inevitable result of partnering with those who do not share those beliefs. It is the definition of "unequal yoking" that scripture warns about. It isn't hard to see that oxen pulling in opposite directions accomplish nothing. Bellevue needs to take a long look at the reason she exists. Her mission statement:
Bellevue Baptist Church exists for the purpose of:
Magnifying Jesus through worship and the Word.
Moving believers in Jesus toward maturity and ministry, and
Making Jesus known to our neighbors and the nations.
Maybe it's just me, but I fail to see how providing church facilities to a secular group fulfills any of that. Yes, it generates "good will", but that would evaporate as soon as the church imposed any limitation on what could be promoted at the meeting. Do you think they'd have agreed to hear the gospel in exchange for the use of the facility? No, they'd have found somewhere else to meet. Freebies are acceptable as long as they come with no strings attached and I fail to see how such "benevolence" gains Bellevue a single inch in her mission.
Cakes,
You'd be surprised how many Conservative Christians are carrying firearms whether revolvers or semi-automatics. As we are watching current events unfold, we are also watching Biblical prophecy being fulfilled. Even if we didn't have a huge crime problem in this country and especially in the city of Memphis, many of us would be buying guns and ammo to protect ourselves from terrorists and other undesirables who easily cross the borders into this country. I don't think anyone on this blog thinks Republican policies are perfect - many of us just see the Republican policies as the "lesser of two evils." Our education system has been run by the liberals in this country for decades. While my teacher friends love to go off on NCLB, they seem to fail to realize that Bush "reached across the aisle" to big time liberals such as Ted Kennedy to help him write NCLB. At this point, I don't think the educational system in this country can be fixed unless we completely take the government out of it. Why do all teachers have to use money out of their own pockets for their classrooms when it is well documented that most public schools spend more per child than the private schools do? Where is all the money going? If the schools are supposedly spending $10,000 per year (I'm guessing - I have no idea how much per Memphis City School child) why are the test scores so horrible? Why do the children "graduate" without being able to read a book or write a paragraph with complete sentences and no spelling mistakes? I attended MSU 20 years ago. I went there from a college prep school I had attended for 12 years. At that time, the amount of students who had to go to remedial classes was ASTOUNDING!!!! I'm sure it is much worse now. My husband even had to take a remedial math course. NCLB may not be working but neither are the liberal policies that were put into place far earlier. School is not the place to teach children how to use condoms so they can supposedly have "safe" sex. It is also no place to show children videos of homosexuals over and over and over until they are desensitized to the behavior. I believe that you have friends who have wonderful long standing partnerships but don't assume just because there are so many divorces in this country that no one is happily married. I have many friends who have long standing marriage relationships. Really that isn't even the point. The biblical model for marriage is one man one woman. As you go through the Bible you see men who had many many wives - even David who was "a man after God's own heart." We do not allow that behavior in this country - except of course for those who are Mormons. I don't agree with that either but it is allowed and not much we can do about it.
I think most of us feel badly that there are people in this country who can't afford health care but socialist health care like they have in Canada is not the answer. My sister is a nurse at an area hospital and she has met plenty of Canadians who are here having surgery because the wait is so long in Canada. Their system is falling apart. That kind of system here will cost taxpayers a fortune and those of us who have decent health care will suffer along with everyone else. Gmommy, don't assume going to a "democratic" state for your health care will help you. We have a fellow blogger who had to leave her extremely liberal state and move to our state in order to continue cancer treatment. She was told in her state there was nothing else they could do for her and also told they needed to use the resources for someone who had a chance to get well. She is still alive and kicking after having treatment here. Socialist health care decides who gets care and who isn't "worthwhile." What if you have a parent, child, or spouse who is sick and isn't considered "worthwhile?" Then where will you go for care? Canada? Nope - falling apart. Mexico? Nope. Great Britain? Nope...........
Thank you all for your loving and measured responses, when I thought I might get flamed. Y'all really do love me and I love you back.
OK, let me back up and clarify. We are talking about the nexus of religious beliefs and the country which is composed of a diversity of beliefs and opinions regarding religion, ethics and morality. I already know the Biblical model of marriage--but not every American believes in the Bible. I know likewise that the Bible condemns homosexuality--but again, not everyone believes it. That may seem tragic or unfathomable to the Christian Conservative, yet laws and civic organizations must account for the plethora of American perspectives.
Automatic firearms are Uzis, AK47s and the like--there should be no controversy defending the notion that these are dangerous to society. Many in my family own firearms, and I have no problem with it. I do not own one, because I believe that doing so cultivates a defensive and martial nature--if nothing more than one must protect the firearm. I do not support abridging the freedom to own one.
Many esteemed scholars believe that NCLB is a Trojan horse meant to destroy public education; and don't wonder about the poor test scores. Standardized testing places the whole system under the short-term priority of meeting adequate yearly progress (AYP), instead of the educational and social needs of children. A school that otherwise meets AYP will still find itself in crisis because NCLB mandates that ESL and SPED students are given the same test as regular students. This is outrageous.
Regarding sex education, what about the children who have no stable home, engaged parents or a responsible social environment? The school system cannot base its protocols on best case scenarios or the moral code of this or that religious group. Like I said, once teens are engaging in sexual activity, we must take measures to ensure their safety and prospects for future success. It may offend ones moral code, but it is more realistic than just telling them they are wrong to do so.
We already have a health care system that decides who deserves care and those who don't--the wealthy and insured do and the poor die. An argument against a "socialist" system in no way makes the case for massive inequality of care in this country. If one works, health care should be a right and not a privilege. I don't how a person of conscience would believe otherwise.
“Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.” T. Jefferson
Yes, I'm an unapologetic liberal, but that does not make me a radical or an enemy.
(Nass, please post this draft instead of the last)
Cakes,
I respect your opinions. I personally don't think they are the answers to the problems we are facing in our country, schools,and families.
Quite frankly, I have no clue what the answers are. It's not looking to the government to solve all the issues that people face.
There really was a time when there was more of a "norm" of character in people.
I know people have always done bad things and there has always been crime BUT I really remember when even if a dad wasn't a "church going" man ...he knew to work and be responsible for his family
(not my dad but I saw others).
I remember when the poor or minorities believed that education, hard work, and sacrifice were the way to get ahead....so their kids could have better opportunities.
There was actually low income housing that wasn't a haven for crime. Kids still made fun of you for living there but it wasn't the dangerous place it is today.
Teachers didn't have to be in fear of physical harm because there was discipline in the schools.
I was raised by very uneducated poor people (who weren't healthy or kind by any means) but manners, cleanliness, doing well in school,being kind to others,no ugly language.... these things were expected.
There is no way the government or schools can solve the problems of families, character, discipline, and health needs.
The government cannot be responsible for taking care of everyone.
The incentive to work hard, to get a good education, to be accountable ...is already fading into the sunset.
More government control is NOT going to bring that back... we don't need more people with entitlement issues.
The church has lost it's way.
Families are so busy working to have stuff or just to survive that babies are in day care institutions at 6 weeks old!!
I'm sick just discussing this.
I have no answers for the problems.
It's easy to say "OH, everyone just needs the Lord"...
or we need a president that will change the systems!
Bull.... Like one man who has to be totally enmeshed in a corrupt system to even RUN for president can really do enough in 4 years to change what took years and years to mess up!
The so called biblical truths being taught from most pulpits doesn't even resemble the life led by Jesus while he was on the earth.
All I know to to do is look at my own life and heart. All I know to do is be honest,to work hard,to take care of my family and the people that I meet who need help.
The government didn't use the laws they had in place to ensure my ex paid the child support he was suppose to pay...more laws won't ensure anything.
The "majority" at my church of 25 years was so desensitized to wrong and accountability that they thought it better to overlook the dishonesty ,lack of character, and the evil of sexual abuse by ministers.
The SBC and the Catholics would have us believe that pastors and popes have authority over us. We are already handing over our brains to other people!!!!
Things are screwed up enough without looking to the government to take care of us, make our desisions, and give people LESS personal accountability.
Cakes,
I don't think most of us think YOU are the enemy. I do think liberals in power are the enemy because they know exactly what they are doing. Most people who vote for liberals don't realize what they are voting for.
I meant to say earlier that I know all people do not agree with the Biblical model of marriage. That is actually the argument I have when people say you just show people what the Bible says and they seem to assume if Jesus said it everyone is going to believe it. That doesn't work if people just believe Jesus was a "good man" or a prophet which seems to be the general concensus when you are trying to witness to people of other faiths. If that person just believes Jesus was a good man, me pointing out what Jesus said about sin in the Bible isn't going to convince them of anything.
I guess where I really disagree with you still is the health care system. My brother-in-law has no insurance and had a horrible accident but the Med took wonderful care of him. I have a friend who just had surgery at the Med - this is the second surgery he has had there and he has no insurance either. Then we have St. Jude which cares of children whether they have insurance or not. My sister works at an area hospital where they take care of loads of people with no insurance. Maybe you can't get an appointment with a doctor but I do believe in Memphis you can get emergency care if you need it. I've never been in the situation and I'm very thankful but it isn't because I'm rich. My husband's company provides insurance for both of us. If they didn't, we would pay for hospitalization and have to pay out of pocket at the doctor's office. Insurance is many times overrated anyway. We have very high deductibles and end up paying out a lot of cash every year. It has been my experience that people can "afford" to pay for whatever they want but not necessarily what they NEED. I spend thousands on my pets medical needs but stay home from the doctor many times when I need to go. Many people in the U.S. who are classified as "poor" have cell phones, several tvs, cable, and other "luxuries" that others who can afford them won't even pay for. Health care is not a right afforded to us by the Constitution. Part of the problem with "big government" is they are always deciding new rights for us. I have to agree with Gmommy on this one.
I love you all!!!
The topic is dancing and.... I like your style and form and very graceful too yet not without power and precision. Bravo!!
Thanks for the discussion.
BTK,
The only thing I'd like to add is that where I do believe in less government and more personal responsibility...I no longer think the Republicans make any better decisions than the "liberals".
Politics seems to be such a dishonest game of money, power, and lies. I'd really like a 3rd option.
You may think I am throwing out the baby with the bath water on Republicans and I still agree with their principals more than I do democrats but who really loves our country anymore??
I heard an atheist man talk on I think , the Glen Beck show today.
He said he may not be a believer but he respects the principals that the country was founded on...which were Christian.
I couldn't believe how patriotic and moraled this man was. And he stood up for his principals.
Republicans are suppose to hold to certain principals but when they get in office....they have to play the game and they no longer stand for the principals we elected them for.
I still don't want any part of socialized medicine ....I just wish something worked the way it was suppose to.
Gmommy,
I agree. The Republicans are no longer Conservative. I'm a conservative first. I keep getting mail from the RNC and I keep sending it back in their postage paid envelopes. I write them a little message that as soon as they start being conservative, I'll send money. I do fill out their helpful surveys and give them more comments than they want to hear.
In the book of Revelations, our LORD warns about the doctrine of the nicolations. HE says HE hates it! He says this in two of His letters to the chruches. What is the doctrine of the nicolations? It is making a separaton between the clergy and laity. God's economy is not like that of man. God requires His shepherds to be the SERVANT of the sheep. Jesus washed the feet of HIS deciples. If you want to be great in the Kingdom of heaven then you must be a servant, not a self appointed "lord" who bullies the sheep and is filled with pride. Remember, when a man is filled with himself and pride, the Lord does not hear his prayers. In fact, you can be certain the Lord is against that man. Is it any wonder that these carnal and wicked things are coming into Bellevue? It is called the world, the flesh and the devil. ICHABOD! The glory of the Lord has left the building.
I wonder if someone has gotten "the church" mixed up with ANIMAL FARM? It is Animal Farm where some pigs are more equal than others. Pretty unkosher policy for a chruch. However, that would explain why the zoo.
Whether Republican or Democrat, there are certain political realities inherent in the American system of government. Compromise is part and parcel of that system in which there is great diversity of moral and political thought. That's one of those things that come with a free system. However, our first president understood rightly that our constitutional government is designed only to work for a moral people...the day the nation loses its moral compass, the system will cease to work...imho, that is the source of the complex problems we face today. Freedom absent of moral responsibility can only breed chaos, anarchy, and inevitable decline.
There is a common misconception in this country that the president wields great power for change. To a degree that's true. However the greatest power exists on the floor of the Congress and the Supreme Court. The SC, whose responsibility originally was to uphold the Constitution, over the years, has become the "interpreter" of it...or rather the "re-interpreter". I believe those 2 branches of the government hold the greater responsibility for the current moral decline in this nation, and the "confusion of faces" that the Bible speaks of. America is rapidly becoming a second rate nation...unless it regains its moral compass, it will continue to decline and its problems will become more and more complex and unsolvable.
"I don't think most of us think YOU are the enemy. I do think liberals in power are the enemy because they know exactly what they are doing. Most people who vote for liberals don't realize what they are voting for."
Well, I don't lnow whether to be relieved or insulted (and I'm giggling, BATK--so we're cool). I believe it is unhelpful to view liberals as either the enemy or stupid.
I think words like "socialist," "big government" and "liberal/ conservative" are loaded, meant to diminish and dismiss perspectives that would best be penetrated with dialogue--labeling in this manner ends the conversation.
For instance, I'm conservative regarding the environment, while most republicans would like to liberally "drill here, and drill now." Likewise, republicans are conservative on social programs and eschew "big government," but quite liberal with regard to military spending and preemptive strikes. Our highway system is "socialist (i.e. we don't have a maze of toll roads)," by the liberal definition of conservatives, yet insuring that all working Americans have access to health care is most egregious.
If we drop the accusations and presumptions about the people who hold differing perspectives, then we might actually work together to address the issues that face us.
AOG makes some very good points! The presidential race is a two-person race. Like it or not, either Obama or McCain is going to win. That's it. So it boils down to which one you think is the lesser of two evils. Voting for anyone else is throwing away your vote, or more likely, in the case of conservatives, just giving Obama another vote because it seems conservative voters are more likely to vote for a third-party or write-in candidate than are liberal voters who will be more inclined to unite behind the Democratic candidate. The time for "voting your conscience" was during the primary. Now the choices are down to two, and one of them will win. In November, if you're planning to vote for someone besides one of the two main candidates, please do everyone a favor and stay home so the lines will be shorter for the rest of us!
On the other hand, we may not make it to November if we end up at war w/ Russia by way of our nuke agreement with our Czech and Polish allies. Scary times.
NBBCOF - Please go to CBSNEWS.COM and put the link on here to the article about the upcoming meeting at Saddleback with the two presidential candidates and Rick Warren. Interesting reading.
Obama, McCain And The Evangelical Divide
"However, our first president understood rightly that our constitutional government is designed only to work for a moral people...the day the nation loses its moral compass, the system will cease to work...imho, that is the source of the complex problems we face today. Freedom absent of moral responsibility can only breed chaos, anarchy, and inevitable decline."
Exactly. Actually, John Adams said that. He is my favorite Founder. :o)
Ask Congress about THEIR lifetime medical plan. And their lifetime retirement benefits even if they only serve a few terms. No social security for them. No sir.
Think about CEO's who preside over companies that lose billions yet they take millions in a golden parachute deal and walk away while the employees are laid off.
Wealthy people can attend church and give lots of money for building programs with their name on it, while a single mom in the next pew has no health insurance and is struggling to pay rent.
The church has forgotten Acts 4 because we love our buildings and programs and we love our celebrity pastors. Why not give to those in need rather than building more buildings or having a better 'sound' system.
The list goes on.
We do need another Great Awakening. Pray!
I have been alurking from time to time and after reading about the O/M Review at the infamous Saddleback lodge and retreat, I thought I would check in on my friends and see what's chirping...
I see that our dear Cakes has weighed in with his notions and I must say that as a Christian Conservative (AKA Right Wing Republican), I oddly have to agree with many of his points and concerns. I believe that the Lord gave us this beautiful earth to live on and we should take care of it right down to the last giant redwood, but I am in no way a tree hugger, we need to drill in AK and the GULF of Mexico NOW. During Hurricane Katrina, not one incident (reported incident anyway) occurred where any oil was released from the off shore rigs. The reason oil is so very important to this country right now is that every single piece of military equipment we have runs on oil with the exception of what few nuclear powered crafts we have. The Dem's are screaming to release oil from our reserves, which is RESERVED for a crisis. Gas prices do not a crisis make. AN ATTACK is a crisis. Hence political posturing to appease the greedy populus that could likely result in our demise.
AT the same time, I believe that the likes of Exxon Mobile and their cronies should clean up every drop of pollution they spill at THEIR expense, not the SUPERFUND, not the EPA and they should have to pay us for the damages we incurr as a result of their negligence. I believe the medical insurance companies should pay BEFORE Medicare and they should pay everything Medicare does not pay-give or take a co-pay based on the policy and the income of our seniors(as it is now, they pay after Medicare squeaks out it's few cents on the dollar and I have seen checks go out on big medical claims for less than a dollar!)It is no wonder we have a healthcare problem.
AND I really believe the words of Teddy Roosevelt should be our battle cry when it comes to American citizenry (is that a word?). I don't have room to write it all here (NASS may censor me:) but here is part of his address:
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
Too bad we don't have another Teddy waiting in the wings to run as President.
I believe that we cannot police the world, but we need to provide aid to those less fortunate, but let it be aid and food that is produced in THIS country and don't send anybody CASH. I believe we should impose tariffs on our companies who move abroad to do business in countries that are poluting and abusing their citizens, this may raise some prices, but we spend too much anyway. We are a greedy bunch at times, but we are the most generous country on earth. I believe in STAR WARS technology for our military and I cry "SHAME" on Bill Clinton for defunding it. I believe in abstinance only in our schools, but I also believe it is the responsibility of each and every parent, teacher and clergyman to teach our young people the consequence of living an ungodly life (and I know this is not practical by the world's standards, but Christianity is not a practical walk, it defies logic and the minds of men-it is supernatural in it's precepts and concepts and it works - every wit, jot and tiddle:)however this is not withstanding the teachings of the likes of S Gaines, R Warren, J Osteen, B Hinn, et al likeminded teachers....their theology defies the teachings of our Lord and puts them in a group all by themselves and apart from Christ. They are storing up for the day of wrath.
And I could go on and on and on when I get on a roll and it's really hard to stop, but it is FRIDAY night and the OLYMPICS are calling....catch ya later....
this is JMO:)
New BBC Open Forum said...
AOG makes some very good points! The presidential race is a two-person race. Like it or not, either Obama or McCain is going to win. That's it. So it boils down to which one you think is the lesser of two evils. Voting for anyone else is throwing away your vote, or more likely, in the case of conservatives, just giving Obama another vote because it seems conservative voters are more likely to vote for a third-party or write-in candidate than are liberal voters who will be more inclined to unite behind the Democratic candidate. The time for "voting your conscience" was during the primary. Now the choices are down to two, and one of them will win. In November, if you're planning to vote for someone besides one of the two main candidates, please do everyone a favor and stay home so the lines will be shorter for the rest of us!
8:40 AM, August 15, 2008
Actually NASS, I disagree with this. This is where the Democratic and Republican parties has us and takes us for granted. We as Americans need to wake up and stop letting the two major parties take us for granted. We need to make them EARN our votes.
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