Tuesday, January 22, 2008

Church Business Meetings Are Not Biblical!



Who knew? On Sunday night, January 20th, Steve Gaines, spending most of the time sitting in a chair, delivered a sermon that lasted over 51 (count 'em -- fifty-one) minutes. You may listen to the entire sermon by going to Bellevue's website and clicking on the "Bellevue Media -- Live On Demand On the Go" box. On the next page click on "Launch On Demand Player" and scroll about 1/3 of the way down the page to where it says "Audio on Demand." The title of the sermon is "The Curse of Legalism" with the January 20th date.

Several things struck me about it. For one thing, he stumbled over his words and lost his train of thought several times. I've noticed this the past few weeks. His sermons seem to ramble and deviate from his topic even more than usual lately. What's going on with that? His knees seem to be hurting him so badly he's barely been able to walk at times. (Hint: I wouldn't be bragging about always ordering the "sampler plate" of desserts whenever I dine out if my knees were collapsing under my own weight.)

But on to the sermon. The sermon notes are on the bottom half of
this page.

This is a clip from the opening of the sermon. (Audio clips are large files and may not load for those with slower internet connections.)

The transcript:


I want to continue in Acts 15, and we'll look at the first 31 verses in Acts 15, and the title of the message is "The Curse of Liberalism." I... kind of played off of a message that I heard W.A. Criswell preach one time on the curse of... of uhhh... liberalism... this is the curse of legalism... excuse me. The curse of legalism. Now what is the difference between legalism and liberalism? And I hope to share that with you tonight, and Jamie... I appreciate so much you... picking out songs tonight about grace because that is exactly what I'll be talking about tonight. The answer for legalism is the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. The legalist doesn't like that. He wants to be saved by works. He wants to s... be saved by Jesus plus something else. Well, I have news for you. All you need to be saved is the Lord Jesus Christ. Heh heh heh. Somebody has said, "Jesus is all you get when you get saved, then Jesus is all you need." And uhhh... I don't think we understand fully, perhaps... I'm sure we don't, none of us do, exactly how much we received when we received the Lord Jesus.

At 25 minutes in we hear
this.

Follow along with me:

Well, let's look now at the discussion of legalism. They discussed it. Look at verse 4 and following... "When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church," the ecclesia, the called-out ones, "and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. But some of the sec... the Pharisees who had believed stood up and said, 'It's necessary to circumcise them and to bring... to direct them to observe the Law of Moses." (Acts 15:4-5 NASB) The leaven of the Pharisees. Notice they were Pharisees that had been saved. Did you catch that? Pharisees.

"The apostles and elders came together to look into this matter." (Acts 15:6 NASB) Now, you know, for some reason verse 6 is not in some people's Bibles. I've heard many times throughout my life... my Christian life... that this was a church business meeting. This was not a church business meeting. This was not a church business meeting! The whole church didn't come to this meeting. You say, "Yes it is. Look back up there. It says, 'They were received by the church and the apostles and the elders.'" They were received that... but when they started dealing with the problems, they called together church leadership... and they dealt with things behind closed doors, not to keep the people uninformed.

But these people that think you're supposed to vote on everything... I've been in some churches, they... they want to vote on the color of the carpet. They want to vote on any little thing in the world, and they say, "Oh, we're Baptists or whatever... and... and... we need to have these business meetings where people come together and they duke it out. That's the Baaaaaap... tist way! Well, it's not the Bible way! It's not God's way.

Why would you have a business meeting, and... and... bring out dirty laundry in front of young people and ruin their hearts and... and... and... and... and... hurt... damage their hearts, and they say, "If this is what Christianity is about, I don't want anything to do with it." Why would you have that kind of meeting... in front of new converts? And they're saying, "Is this the church?" Why would you have that around lost people? And they say, "I'll never darken the door of a church again." I know people that won't even go to church because they've been to a church that is a fighting church. Under God, let's don't have any of that! {applause} Just a thought.

That's why God gives leaders! Now, let me read verse 6 again. "The apostles and the elders... came together to look into this matter." The only ones dealing with the problem are the leaders... the shepherds. "And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to the brethren, 'Know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe it." (Acts 15:7 NASB) Now, what experiences... who had Peter gone to see? I'll give you a hint. It's back in Chapter 10. Whose house did he go to to share the gospel with the Gentiles? Who was it? Cornelius. That's what he's talking about. Look at verse 8....


There's just so much wrong with this! But I'll let the discussion begin before putting in my two cents worth.

Finally (but with another 17 minutes to go), at 34 minutes and 40 seconds in we hear
this.

Read it for yourself:


Now let's look at the decision against legalism. Praise the Lord for the outcome. "After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, 'Brethren, listen to me.'" (Acts 15:13 NASB)

Now, I want you to see what happens. Now, I'm not saying this is... I'm... I'm doing this right out of the text. Not trying to say some self-serving thing. James is the senior pastor. Did they have plurality of elders? What is an elder? It's a pastor. It's not some "super deacon." It's not some elevated lay person. An elder is a pastor is a bishop is a pastor is an elder is a bishop -- all the same stuff. There's only two offices in the New Testament -- pastor, which is also an elder and a bishop and deacons.

That's it. I... I got all night. I really have nothing to do. {laughter} I've already preached three times. I'm on a roll. {laughter} By the grace of God, Donna will stay until midnight. Amen! I mean... I'll have one person to preach to if y'all leave. But if you... we'll get through a little quicker if you'll join in a little bit, all right? It's just us. I'm down on the floor with you. All right?


I forgot what I was even talking about. Amen? {long silence}

James.... I know what I was talking about. He's the senior pastor. They had plurality of deac... of uhhh... of elders. Plurality of pastors.... They had a staff! That's what they had. Do you hear what I say every Sunday? Our pastors will come. And our deacons. Why? Because you're one of the two... if you're ordained. These men are pastors. And then... the men are deacons. I'm the senior pastor. But now James has heard everybody speak. He's heard the missionaries. He's heard the apostles. But he is... the senior pastor. And notice what he says... "Brethren, listen to me!" He is a wise senior pastor. He has sat around. He has listened to everybody give their input. And now he is going to give his input, and they're all... in the leadership group... going to vote on it, if you will... agree or not... but he has waited, he has listened, he's wise, he's trying to give godly counsel, he's listened to Peter, he's listened to Paul, he's listened to Barnabas, he's listened to all the elders and all the apostles speak, and now... he's ready to throw out what he thinks needs to happen.

"Listen to me, brethren," verse 14, "Simeon," there's another word for Peter, "has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name." (Acts 15:14 NASB) Now this James, by the way, is the half brother of the Lord Jesus. You say, "What do you mean 'half brother'"? Had the same mother; not the same father. "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, after these things I will return, (and) I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, (and) I will rebuild its ruins, (and) I will restore it, so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,' says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago. Therefore," verse 19, "it is my judgment.... " Here's the senior pastor saying, "Guys, I've heard... I've heard all of you. Here's what the Word says, and here's what I think we ought to do." That's exactly what you have going on here.

Again, this is not a church-wide business meeting. This is leadership behind closed doors. I'm not saying there's never room for a church-wide business meeting. But I'm telling you this! You don't deal in front of the whole group... with difficult issues... for anybody... that... in anybody that wants to walk up to the microphone and say something. That is not in the Bible. I said, "It's not in the Bible!" Amen. You can say whatever you want to. Say, "Well, I like to fight." Well, go someplace else because we don't want fighters. Amen? You say, "Did he just say that?" I just said that. We don't want troublemakers. We want peacemakers. The Bible doesn't say, "Blessed are the troublemakers." The Bible says, "Blessed are the peacemakers." And we want people who will preserve the unity and the bond of peace. And let me tell you something. As a shepherd, sometimes you have to protect the sheep from the wolves! That's our job.


Now, who do you think he was referring to when he talked about "anybody that wants" walking up to the microphone and speaking at a church-wide business meeting? Hmmm... any guesses? He's talking about PW's son! That young man was approaching the microphone to speak in the March 25th "monkey business" meeting when Steve (or someone) gave the signal to "shut 'er down," and shut it down they did, leaving this young man standing there. Steve Gaines has been heard bragging publicly about "shutting down that meeting," so I don't know why this sermon comes as any surprise. I guess I thought that even Steve couldn't be this openly insensitive and yes, dare I say, cruel. I guess "protecting the sheep from the wolves" doesn't include protecting the lambs from a confessed pedophile and documented sexual predator for six months. Wonder what he did mean....


139 comments:

Been Redeemed said...

Transferred from previous thread:

MOM4 said...
opie said..."For all I know the pastor is doing a great job now,"

Actually, something is catching up with him quite rapidly. He is suffering physically and mentally, unable to stand to preach on Sunday nights...yelling his sermons and "chasing rabbits" quite a bit...I guess if one is content with shallow, winding and twisted scripture sermons, they wouldn't know what is going on...

12:44 PM, January 22, 2008

Lindon said...

I would encourage everyone to read Acts 15 very closely.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2015&version=47

gmommy said...

mom4,
Chasing rabbits is so true. I was "forced" to watch and hear the Sunday night "sermon" since a friend wanted to hear it and I was appalled by his rabbit chasing of the bogus business meeting.
What a joke.
It pains me to think that some people won't even question the way he presented the meeting to them.

Who's idea was it to have the meeting on a Sunday morning????
...when visitors and children would be there.....
Who's idea was it to have the "celebration" so that the children and their parents would be there?????
AND how dare him mention people coming up to the mic to air dirty laudry and problems!!!!
As if he hasn't ignored and disrespected a certain man enough!!

AND THEN...how dare him ask for amens from the crowd ....he was already screaming and worked up so much,he lost his place and had to make a joke of it.
That sermon wasn't on legalism at all.
That was a sorry excuse for a sermon.
I won't mention how unhealthy and unstable SG appeared....I truly hate that his health is being affected by the BBC situation forced on everyone. Nothing should be that important!

BkWormGirl said...

Wow. I am really begin to worry about him. This is what paranoid delusions and a host of other mental illnesses are made up of.

As I read through this I was reminded of Ananias and Sephria. They thought all was good if they kept it hidden in secret. God had a different view. Just as he does now. I am trying to think, and I cannot think of single verse where God advocates now (or even at a time in ancient history) where God advocated secrecy and silence as the general rule of practice for believers. Am I forgetting something?

Having come from a very legalistic background - I think SG needs to spend some time talking to people who have experienced legalism. Legalism is not seeking openness and transparency. Rather legalism is do what I say because I say it and quit asking question. I believe the pot has called the kettle black!

STOPTHEMADNESS said...

Hi all, I am wondering now, can't a church call a business meeting without inviting children or visitors? We don't ever know who the lost are among us in worship services, but, is there a thing about calling a business meeting, for members/adults only? Also, I was surprised to hear him making light about carpet choices...the pot and kettle again? I can't comment on his appearance. It seems cruel to me... as in, no need to state the obvious. I didn't realize he was that sick.

bent but not broken @ GFBC said...

Hi Folks:

I posted the following from way back on 12/23/2006. I'm not sure why the blog changed my "Bent But Not Broken @ GFBC" to "Anonymous".

Anyway, I noticed someone earlier last week said something about Steve saying during that Sunday night sermon 1/13 that he would like to sit down and the blogger said that Steve made a reference to all the "thousands of pills that he had taken because of his Myasthenia Gravis."

I still truly believe that he is suffering from some type of psychosis because of the massive doses of prednisone.

It is entirely possible that his psychological peccadilloes (Oxford dictionary: "trifling offense, venial sin. Synonyms: slip, error, lapse, mistake, infraction, violation") are being greatly magnified by his prednisone.

I still firmly believe it would be in his best interest and especially BBC's best interest to force him into medical retirement.

It is such a shame to see what he has done to Bellevue and her reputation. So many of us here at GFBC are glad that he was able to be "patched up" enough for him to move on.

Maybe Dr. Loco / Looney or whatever his blog name is can help Steve end the carnage at BBC by forcing his medical retirement.

Other questions to ask: exactly what type of medications and how much of each is he on??????

" Anonymous said...
http://www.drrichardhall.com/steroid.htm

The purpose of this paper is to review the adverse psychiatric effects produced by corticosteroids; to define their incidence and symptom presentation and to make recommendations for their management.

Since our study, several other critical reviews of the literature and new studies have become available. This newer literature provides longitudinal insight into the nature of steroid induced mental change. The incidence of steroid psychosis varies widely in the literature ranging from 13 to 62%, with a weighted average of 27.6% for some steroid induced mental change, the vast majority of which are mild to moderate and do not herald the development of a full-blown psychosis or affective syndrome. The incidence of a severe psychiatric syndrome in the more than 2,500 patients reported in the literature ranges from 1.6 to 50% with a weighted average of 5.7%.

This study suggested that patients receiving daily doses of greater than 40mg of Prednisone or its equivalent were at greatest risk for developing a steroid psychosis.

The steroid psychoses we saw presented as a spectrum psychosis with symptoms ranging from affective through schizophreniform to those of organic brain syndrome.

…the most prominent symptom constellation to appear during the course of the illness consisted of emotional lability, anxiety, distractibility, pressured speech, sensory flooding, insomnia, depression, perplexity, agitation, auditory and visual hallucinations, intermittent memory impairment, mutism, disturbances of body image, delusions, apathy and hypomania.

The type of psychiatric disturbance seen is in fact, difficult to classify as patient's symptoms tend to change radically during the course of the illness. Overall, approximately 40% of patients present predominantly with a depressive disorder, 25% with mania, 5% with a bipolar disorder-cyclical form; 15% with an agitated schizophreniform or paranoid psychosis and 10% as an acute progressive delirium. Three-quarters of all patients with steroid psychosis evidence affective symptoms some time during the course of their illness. A frank psychotic state without mood disturbance occurs in 10 to 15% of patients while some psychotic features, (i.e., a marked impairment of reality testing) associated with affective symptoms occurs in 70% of patients.

In conclusion, steroid induced mental changes are common.


HELLO BBC - The prednisone long term dosage that SG is on for his Myasthenia gravis could be a logical explanation for his behavior. Medical retirement may be the best thing for him and BBC.
1:26 PM, December 23, 2006
MOM4 said...
bent but not broken @ GFBC said...

"HELLO BBC - The prednisone long term dosage that SG is on for his Myasthenia gravis could be a logical explanation for his behavior. Medical retirement may be the best thing for him and BBC."
1:26 PM, December 23, 2006

I agree, however, I do not think that he would voluntarily submit to that type of testing or even a psychiatric evalutaion, even though it seems that he should at least have a physical and eval to determine his fitness for work. The scary thing is the people who are supporting him in his erratic behaviour patterns are supposedly "normal"!
While medical reasons may contribute to the cause of his psychotic episodes, I honestly believe that what is in his heart is coming forth - Like one said earlier "What is in the well, comes up in the bucket".
Perhaps Mrs Gaines can prompt him to get checked out, for his own good.
6:10 PM, December 23, 2006

MOM4 said...

gmommy said...
"I truly hate that his health is being affected by the BBC situation forced on everyone. Nothing should be that important!"

His health is most likely the result of his own doings. Stress is a man-made illness, a result of lack of faith, or unrepentent sin. If we trust Him as Matthew tells us, we don't have stress, especially anything that would affect us so remarkedly as Steve Gaines is showing...
I too take the same medications he does, on occasion they can make you look "puffy", which can be relieved with rest, but there is no way they are causing the problems he is exhibiting now. MG is a very difficult disease to manage when you are stressed. Other that that, the meds should take care of it very well.
However, according to Matthew 18, specificly v. 17, I guess I would have stress too if I had that hanging over my head....

New BBC Open Forum said...

STM,

The last "business" meeting was for members/adults only! Problem was, there were some visitors who not only stayed -- they voted. Julie Rosenberger, sister of Donna Gaines, and her daughter attended the "business" meeting on March 25th. They both voted on every single motion, in spite of not being BBC members. (According to this Ms. Rosenberger is a member of Independent Presbyterian and coordinates their "WOC Prayer Ministry.") It had been announced that only BBC members could vote (which should have been obvious to everyone), so there shouldn't have been any confusion on anyone's part.

After the vote to adjourn the meeting prematurely, she turned to a nearby group of BBC members, none of whom had provoked her in any way and remarked, "You are not a part of the ministry of this church, and it's time for you to go." Lovely.

New BBC Open Forum said...

mom4 wrote:

"If we trust Him as Matthew tells us, we don't have stress... "

I don't think that's necessarily true. Although it's a worthy goal, most of us can't always live up to that ideal. The Bible doesn't tell us we'll be free from illness or bad times, and illness and life in general are often stressful. That sort of sounds like the "name it and claim it" gang (which I know you're not a part of) who say they'll never worry or be sick a day in their lives. Eventually life has a way of catching up with most of them.

bent but not broken @ GFBC said...

Hey Nass,

Do you know of some people in the medical community that could offer their "preseumptive diagnosis" of the symptoms (physically & psychologically) that SG has been manifesting more and more here recently?? He sounds like he is going downhill quickly but unfortunately he is (& has been) taking BBC down with him.

concernedSBCer said...

Whoa....I just read the excerpts of his sermon and I am shocked at how much he has gone down. I never thought he was that great of a preacher, but now.....he is all over the board.

What in the world are those left at BBC thinking? How many are being mislead by his false teaching?

MOM4 said...

NASS,
Not to be confused with "name it and claim its", I was referring to emotional stress as a result of worry in contrast with the peace that passes all understanding. The cure for stress inducing anxiety, is trust in the Father's care as in Matthew 6:25-34.
Illness is not necessarily the result of sin, but since evil is in this world, we are all exposed to it and some illnesses are a result of our sins, some are not. It would be ignorant of me to assume his MG is a result of sin, that is something that would be between he and the Lord, but the stress of what he has done and what is hanging over his head is enough to send anybody to their sickbed, even the grave...IMO.

New BBC Open Forum said...

BBNB,

As far as the screen name on your old post being changed to "anonymous," that was a problem with Blogger. They changed to a new version early last year, and a lot of the screen names on old comments were affected. I've never allowed anonymous comments.

As far as speculating about SG's health or asking a professional to evaluate him, I'm not going there. I was only stating what I'd observed firsthand -- that he's been increasingly stumbling over his words and looking more physically stressed in recent weeks. It's not fair to him or his family to continue to speculate publicly about the causes of the state of his physical or mental health. The truth is, we don't know. It could be medication, or it could be the MG, or it could be a combination of the two or neither. The details really aren't anyone's business but his, but if it's affecting his ability to do his job, that is the congregation's business.

I don't wish Steve Gaines any ill will. If his health is causing him to not be able to competently serve as the pastor of BBC (I think he's already disqualified himself by his mishandling of the PW situation), then he needs to step down, either temporarily or permanently, and those around him need to hold him accountable and get him the help he needs if he's incapable of doing so himself.

emptyseat said...

After hearing Sunday night's performance, the following attendance numbers make sense now. I can remember the first time we had 10,000 in Sunday School at Bellevue. My, those were the days.

Here are the numbers put out by the official attendance counters:

Average Total Sunday School Attendance for all three hours:

August of 2006: 7,988
August of 2007: 6,214
December of 2007: 4,811

On December 23, 2007, the total attendance was 3,786. This may be the lowest Sunday School attendance in over 20 years.

sickofthelies said...

I'm very sorry that SG is not doing well physically.

Perhaps that is the reason he could be so cruel as to make such a remark about CW.

Anyone who has ever been a victim of abuse just had a knife stuck right in their backs by his statement.

" Why would you want to air our dirty laundry......"

Dr. Gaines, CW has NO dirty laundry!!!! However, YOU created dirty laundry when you allowed a self confessed pervert to stay in the shadows of BBC while you helped to hide his "dirty laundry".

Adults molesting children is only enhanced by silence.

Do you think that if we don't talk about it, it will just go away??

So what you were REALLY saying is that you didn't want YOUR dirty laundry aired!!!!!

amazed said...

As to the comment that the people around SG needs to get him the help he needs. Remember Elvis? Every single person in his group, including Vernon, knew that Elvis had a drug problem and that he was on a course to self destruction. No one would dare stand up to the king because they new they would very soon be on the outside looking in. As
it turned out, they all became unemployed in the blink of an eye.

Don't hold your breath until some one steps forward to help the current king.

New BBC Open Forum said...

mom4,

We seem to be in agreement -- except I'm not too sure SG feels guilt or (conscious) stress over anything he's done at/to Bellevue. If that sermon Sunday night (and several others) was any indication, he doesn't seem to. He's run off several thousand of the very sheep he says it's his job to protect.

gmommy said...

My personal opinion is that SG doesn't feel the least bit guilty about any action he has taken since coming to BBC.
I think he believes every single rationalization he verbalizes.

He has his mind fixed on others doing wrong but not him. It is all justified in his mind because he is a legend in his own mind.
He is a SR.Pastor...accountable to NO ONE!!!!
This speaks to his heart and character.
We learned a few years ago....it's not about character....
it's the economy, stupid!!!
SG and the "elders we didn't know we had"....their healthy economy!

oc said...

"And let me tell you something. As a shepherd, sometimes you have to protect the sheep from the wolves! That's our job."


And grandmother, what big teeth you have.

Jussayin'.
oc.

MOM4 said...

I don't know folks, it seems to me that it would take a whole lot of conniving effort to pull off what he did..that takes quite a bit of forethought and planning – it is hard to keep up with ALL the lies - the dreams, the money, smoozing the members with money and power that he wants to keep and planning the removal of those he wants out…his mind has to be spinning! (and I agree, he feels no guilt, but the weight would be there just the same)

Lin said...

"it is hard to keep up with ALL the lies - the dreams, the money, smoozing the members with money and power that he wants to keep and planning the removal of those he wants out…his mind has to be spinning! (and I agree, he feels no guilt, but the weight would be there just the same)"

Mom, that is one reason why he keeps preaching sermons like this. 'Authorities' should not have to keep up with all that according to Gaines. That is why he promotes closed door meetings and NO 'super deacons'. He alone is ELDER.

If he can really convince everyone of this false teaching then he does not need to keep track of anything because no one can question him.

CEO's don't have this kind of power. Not even Presidents. Only Dictators. It is NOT biblical at all.

Lin said...

"Did they have plurality of elders? What is an elder? It's a pastor. It's not some "super deacon." It's not some elevated lay person. An elder is a pastor is a bishop is a pastor is an elder is a bishop -- all the same stuff. There's only two offices in the New Testament -- pastor, which is also an elder and a bishop and deacons."

Wonder what he does with the Holy Priesthood?

Wonder how he rationalizes that many Epistles were written to the WHOLE church with details for the WHOLE church to attend to. Most were NOT written to an ELDER except Timothy and Titus who were evangelists.

Can he give us the names of each SR Pastor of each church mentioned in the NT?

How does the NT describe leaders? As servants. The only power they have is the power of the Holy Spirit. No earthly power.

Why do we see Paul telling the Corinthians to have several people preaching and the others to judge? We never see anything about ONE person in a church preaching/teaching being in charge.

There is no 'office' of elder or pastor. That is a very bad translation that is not in the orginal Greek. Elder is a function.

Who appoints Elders?

He may want to go and read about Diotrephes.

oc said...

lin says:
Wonder what he does with the Holy Priesthood?


oc says:
Come on lin. You know what he does with it. He jumps their fences, he demeans them at another church, he allows them to be at the mercy of a sexual predator, he won't allow a real business meeting, he allows a 15 year old girl to be terrorized and intimidated etc.,etc. etc... he lets the fold think that all is well, while the bells of hell are tolling...

Because, I believe...that he doesn't believe at all in the Priesthood of the Believer. I think he believes he is above all that.

Just leaving it at that.
oc.

gmommy said...

Lin,
As JTB said...it is a sin to mis use God's Word.....
besides the frantic yelling over no substance.... just the "thoughts" he wants to force into their brains.....most people won't get in their Bibles and SEE that what SG is saying is not right.
This is so wrong and nothing like a "Sr Pastor", elder, or bishop should teach or behave.


And BTW....the numbers for SS are sad....I still know people that go to Joe J's class but then leave for another church service so the service numbers have to be bad.

ezekiel said...

Lin,

When you read it carefully, we find that James says that Peter and Paul's testimony concurs with the scripture. That is what he uses to justify his ruling. Then at some point the entire church along with the elders select those to go out and correct the false teaching of the jewish believers regarding circumcision.

Just more of the twisting we have seen in the past. It would help if all those applauding would read the Word.

By the way, another reason for sitting down may be totally practical. Lightening generally strikes the highest object in the area.....

What you are seeing is the very embodiment of legalism. A Nicolaitan spirit....He has to be ruler, no matter what.

Lynn said...

Fascism: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control



Given that definition of Fascism, I would say that Steve Gaines fits it to a tee.

And before anyone fusses at me for that. Let me make it clear I am NOT putting Gaines in the same Catagory as Hitler and Moussolini. But the definition of fascism is a dictatorship.

gmommy said...

"Lightening generally strikes the highest object in the area.....

What you are seeing is the very embodiment of legalism. A Nicolaitan spirit....He has to be ruler, no matter what."

...Now THIS would be an appropriate place to expect some Amens!

Opie said...

Maybe its just me, but I'm too busy trying to stay grounded in prayer and the Word of God to worry about being the "senior" pastor. I have to be honest and say that I'm in no way qualified to make many of the decisions required in a growing church, especially finances. I went to seminary and was called to preach. I've never studied finance, business management, or interior design, so I think I'll try to leave those decisions to more qualified people.

gmommy said...

opie,
Glad you didn't study interior design to be a pastor!!!

GF Baker said...

MOM4 said...
gmommy said...
"I truly hate that his health is being affected by the BBC situation forced on everyone. Nothing should be that important!"

His health is most likely the result of his own doings. Stress is a man-made illness, a result of lack of faith, or unrepentent sin. If we trust Him as Matthew tells us, we don't have stress, especially anything that would affect us so remarkedly as Steve Gaines is showing...
I too take the same medications he does, on occasion they can make you look "puffy", which can be relieved with rest, but there is no way they are causing the problems he is exhibiting now. MG is a very difficult disease to manage when you are stressed. Other that that, the meds should take care of it very well.
However, according to Matthew 18, specificly v. 17, I guess I would have stress too if I had that hanging over my head....


Mom, I beg to differ with you. Stresses in our lives are not always a LACK OF FAITH or an UNCONFESSED SIN..........sorry, but that really raises my hackles and was the last straw that had my husband and I leave our last church.

Try having one of your children almost die, your husband (the only worker) lose his job, you all 3 get an illness that totally wrecks your immune system and your church family totally leave you hanging as if you never existed. Thow in the death of a parent in there for good measure shake it up..........and see if you don't have a little "STRESS" come into your life.

It wasn't from lack of faith on any or our parts. That was the only thing we were hanging on to that was getting us through when we had a 'visit' from the pastor pointing out those 'cure all points' UNCONFESSED SIN or LACK OF FAITH........see where that will get you in a hurry.

To this day, it has gotten worse. My husband has an undiagnosed immune disorder, possibly Gulf War. My immune system is wrecked because I tried to take care of 2 sick individual and go back to work after 20 yrs while ill....... It isn't lack of faith or unconfessed sin. BUT, having all of my church family make a one size fits all diagnosis like you said and then kick you to the curb hasn't helped a whole heap either.

Sorry if this sounds bitter.......I am beyond bitter. I got alone with the Lord and got that worked out. But I do confess that I have been hurt by the very ones that I felt were closer than my blood relatives. Pardon me if my trust is my fellow Christians isn't so easily given.

I thought that this group was different and I was enjoying my time here in fellowship of the scriptures, but sadly, I see I may have made a mistake to reach out again.

concernedSBCer said...

gf baker: You must feel like Job. His friends weren't helpful either.

Seriously, there's no way I can understand exactly what you have been through, but I have been through some similar things. The whole "Christians are the only ones to shoot their wounded." It's very hard to live through and deal with that truth.

I think the difference is that it doesn't sound like you and your family did anything wrong; it sounds like you were just living your life. Sometimes bad things happen because of poor choices and bad decisions and we must meet the consequences of those actions. But many times, it's just life.

I think we need to help people through life's unexpected, and we also need to help them through the consequences of bad decisions. The key is that they must be willing to do their part. It sounds like you have. I'm sorry things have been so bad.

You and your family will be in my prayers.

sickofthelies said...

gf baker

Oh, please don't feel that way. I totally understand what you are saying..

You have obviously had some awful things happen to you...and under the same circumstances, any of us would have buckled under that pressure!!!

I agree with you that stress is not man made, and that it is not due to a lack of faith.

The Lord knows that I have had plenty of stress in my own life.

Please know that you are sooo very welcome here and that we will hold you up in prayer.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"opie" wrote:

"I've never studied finance, business management, or interior design, so I think I'll try to leave those decisions to more qualified people."

I don't know. I think that last one might come in handy when you're picking out the carpet color for the sanctuary. We know there's nothing in the Bible that says the sheep get to vote on the carpet color. (Is there?)

Here's a suggestion for how something as seemingly unimportant as that might be handled. How about the "elders we didn't know we had" picking out two or three colors of carpet and letting the congregation vote from among those choices? Or appoint a committee. Yeah, that's it! A carpet committee. And let them pick out two or three carpet samples the people can vote on. That way everyone feels like they've had a say in things. And they are, after all, the ones who have to look at it week after week, so why shouldn't they have a say in it?

And why is it, whenever the subject of congregational approval or dissatisfaction comes up, the example of carpet color is always the one that gets trotted out by the "swallow and follow" critics?

eprov said...

decisions.....
here's the real crux of the issue in my opinion -
Senior Pastors like SG want to be paid as a CEO. The problem is he doesn't have the ability to effectively 'lead' a group of people. Seems to me he does the tease work during the interview process, lays out the net, and then relies on his cronies to help him do his thing.
A new pastor is called to be an under shepherd of the EXISTING congregation.
His plan was to 'take control' and make it what he wanted, regardless of sentiment of the congregation. He made many statements to that effect.
So be it.
If we sow the wind, we reap the whirlwind. Inevitable part of God's law of creation. If he isn't old enough to understand that, God help him!

ezekiel said...

gf baker,

Isaiah 48:10, 1 Cor 9:24, Phil 3:14, Luke 14:27-28

Nobody (except Olsteen and a bunch of other false prophets) ever said it was going to be easy.

It is the refiners fire. Nothing more, nothing less. It is unfortunate that the people that are supposed to help you the most don't understand that. I encourage you to find a place where they do.

The next time someone tells you that it is your fault, your sin or whatever remind them of Job..

Keep The Faith

MOM4 said...

gfbaker,
I am sorry for offending you. I understand your situation, I have "been there, done that", and still living with the effects of horrible tragedy, death, illness and the pain of job losses and the loss of our home. You are NOT alone here and I pray that you will not reject the strength that can be drawn from fellow believers who have experienced horrible pain and suffering and have survived thru the love of Christ and each other. My emphasis on the stress I believe is besetting Steve Gaines,is entirely my opinion of HIM and no one else. I believe it is not the absence of stress, but when those stressors appear, how we deal with them is what reflects what we are made of and who we rely on to bear our burdens. The fact that you were able to go to the Lord and work out issues says a lot about your character and your relationship with the Savior. I commend you for your strength, and commit to pray for you as you continue on the journey the Lord has set before you.
Again, I apologize for offending you.

gmommy said...

gfbaker,
I agree and relate and am sorry.
I had the same reaction to mom's post but know that she is a sweet lady and didn't want to deal with it.
The trauma of the BBC betrayal along with a rebellious child kicked in a lot of things that led to the last year being a pile of health issues for me . I understand wearing out your adrenals and immune system.
Please know we support you.
Everyone handles things differently and for me personally, most people don't understand what it's like to deal with horrible situations completely alone.
Many of my blog friends were the only real support I had. One sweet one is still feeding me hot meals.
So you're where you belong. Mom is a great lady....we all just need to be sensitive to different situations in each others life and not paint with such a broad brush.....Nass, did I get that saying right???????

Lin said...

"The Curse of Liberalism." I... kind of played off of a message that I heard W.A. Criswell preach one time on the curse of... of uhhh... liberalism... this is the curse of legalism... excuse me. The curse of legalism. Now what is the difference between legalism and liberalism."

Did anyone notice that this first part does NOT fit the later parts where he gets extremely legalistic about church structure?

Legalism is extra Biblical teachings. That is exactly what Gaines has done here...

Its as if the Nazi's said that Fascism is compassionate and anyone who dares disgree is in big trouble. That is what Gaines is doing...he is making a declaration that is NOT true and daring people to disagree.

Man, I hate it when scripture is twisted like this. I pray that more people will come out from under his twisted/false teaching.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I'm the senior pastor. But now James has heard everybody speak. He's heard the missionaries. He's heard the apostles. But he is... the senior pastor. And notice what he says... 'Brethren, listen to me!' He is a wise senior pastor. He has sat around. He has listened to everybody give their input. And now he is going to give his input, and they're all... in the leadership group... going to vote on it, if you will... agree or not... but he has waited, he has listened, he's wise, he's trying to give godly counsel, he's listened to Peter, he's listened to Paul, he's listened to Barnabas, he's listened to all the elders and all the apostles speak, and now... he's ready to throw out what he thinks needs to happen.

Like your "vision"?

From one of Ms. Higgy's December prayer lists:

"Pray for the commitment to the vision cast before us from the Lord through our pastor in sharing the love of Jesus with Memphis and all the surrounding areas in which we live."

Every time I hear about someone's "vision," I cringe. Besides being so touchy-feely, New-Agey sounding, I now, thanks to a regular reader, have this mental image to deal with. He writes, "Where has the Lord Jesus ever presented this doctrine? I mean, it's like Jesus is standing somewhere with a bow and arrow and attached to the arrow is this thing called a vision. Then Jesus releases the arrow and it zings through 'our pastor' and lands on the ground before us. As it lands we bow to it as a sacred 'message' from God."

Junkster said...

Some comments on some quotes from SG's "sermon":

SG: Now, I want you to see what happens. Now, I'm not saying this is... I'm... I'm doing this right out of the text. Not trying to say some self-serving thing.

Junkster's comment: I wonder where he got the notion that some folks might consider his comments self-serving?

SG: James is the senior pastor. Did they have plurality of elders? What is an elder? It's a pastor. It's not some "super deacon." It's not some elevated lay person. An elder is a pastor is a bishop is a pastor is an elder is a bishop -- all the same stuff.

Junkster's comment: I agree with the basic idea that elder, pastor, and bishop (overseer) are used interchangeably in the NT. But SG reveals a lot (as do many preachers) by his use of the term "lay person". It reflects a strong distinction between "clergy" and "laity" that are holdover concepts from Roman Catholicism and not distinctions made in the NT. Sure, there are those who perform certain functions within the church, but that's way different from a system that elevates some individuals over others. Our whole modern concept of "professional ministry" doesn't come close to the New Testament model.

SG: James.... I know what I was talking about. He's the senior pastor. They had plurality of deac... of uhhh... of elders. Plurality of pastors.... They had a staff! That's what they had.

Junkster's comment: The idea of the pastoral staff as being the elders of a church is not new to Southern Baptists ... that was the position of some of the SBC founders. But when you combine that idea with the ideas of a paid professional clergy the end result is that only churches large enough to have multiple staff members have multiple elders. Very Baptist, perhaps, but not very New Testament.

SG: Do you hear what I say every Sunday? Our pastors will come. And our deacons. Why? Because you're one of the two... if you're ordained. These men are pastors. And then... the men are deacons. I'm the senior pastor.

And just where in the Bible does this idea of a "Senior" elder (pastor) come from? One elder that is above the other elders? A "super elder"? And elder that can chose on his own to appoint (hire) other elders (or dismiss/fire them)? Hmmmmm?

SG: Therefore," verse 19, "it is my judgment.... " Here's the senior pastor saying, "Guys, I've heard... I've heard all of you. Here's what the Word says, and here's what I think we ought to do." That's exactly what you have going on here.

Junkster's comments: Is that so? Let's take a look at what the text actually says. (But first, let me note that I think one reason some pastors like to put the verses they are "preaching" from up on a big screen is in hopes that it will keep people from actually opening their Bibles and reading the text and context, which would show how much they are abusing the Scripture.) Ok, so here's some of the text:

Acts 15:6-13:
6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." 12The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. ..."

In verse 6 it says the apostles and elders met (which is what SG is using to make his point that you don't need the whole congregation to discuss sensitive issues). Then, "after much discussion", Peter got up and addressed "them" (verse 7). Who is meant by "them"? The ones who were meeting, of course. Peter makes his speech (verses 8-11), and then in verse 12 it says "The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul ..." So what happened? Did the apostles and elders suddenly quit their closed door meeting someplace between verses 11 and 12? No -- the clear sense here is that the entire meeting included the whole congregation. When it says in verse 6 that the apostles and elders met, the context shows that they met and discussed the matter WITH the congregation, not off in some secret "clandestine" meeting.

When James says "It is my judgment" it was NOT as a senior pastor saying to his staff in some private meeting "I've heard everything you guys have to say, but here's what I think. (Oh, and by the way, keep in mind before you comment on my decision that I'm the senior pastor and I can fire any of you whenever I want.)" Rather, James spoke as a respected spiritually mature servant of the congregation, saying to the whole church, "We've all heard what God has done, now here's what I believe we should do about this situation."

And then what happened? Verse 22 says "Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas." Well, what do you know? After James gave his opinion, who made the decision as to what do? The whole church! Amazing, huh?

This is the point where Lin would remind us to be a Berean. Amen? :)

Garrett said...

I read Outreach Magazine's report of the largest churches in America this afternoon. I was sadly surprised to see Bellevue with only 7,500 in weekly attendance. Did we not used to almost fill both services not too long ago?

GF Baker said...

MOM4 said...
gfbaker,
I am sorry for offending you. I understand your situation, I have "been there, done that", and still living with the effects of horrible tragedy, death, illness and the pain of job losses and the loss of our home. You are NOT alone here and I pray that you will not reject the strength that can be drawn from fellow believers who have experienced horrible pain and suffering and have survived thru the love of Christ and each other. My emphasis on the stress I believe is besetting Steve Gaines,is entirely my opinion of HIM and no one else. I believe it is not the absence of stress, but when those stressors appear, how we deal with them is what reflects what we are made of and who we rely on to bear our burdens. The fact that you were able to go to the Lord and work out issues says a lot about your character and your relationship with the Savior. I commend you for your strength, and commit to pray for you as you continue on the journey the Lord has set before you.
Again, I apologize for offending you.



*******

Mom,
Thanks for the clarification and the apology! I am also sorry that I was too quick to raise my hackles.

This has been a horrible fibro week and dealing with the pain made me react a little to harsh and a little too quickly.

I have just had too many tell me that my husband and I need to do a spiritual checkup because this has gone on for so long.

We are almost homebound and still haven't quite reached 50. I am not trying to play the violin to pull your heartstrings......just trying to let you know the situation.

I know there is a reason, somedays I am better able to deal with it than others.

Due to my husband's health about the only support we have is our children, my MIL and our cyber friends.

Thank you again for the clarification and I will probably just go back into reading until the flare is over.

Collegestudent11 said...

If you search Bellevue on wikipedia.org, almost the entire article talks of the troubles of the past few years. The article makes the church seem awful.

MOM4 said...

gf baker,
I can relate to the fibro flares, and my husband is home from work sick today as well. I am glad you understand where I was coming from and please feel free to post here anytime you want.

As long as you can get it by NASS, you are free to say as you please. (JK NASS:))

concernedSBCer said...

gf baker: WE are a good bunch of folks. Join us...and post anytime. Many of us have our emails in the profile. Email us directly if you'd like.

Hope you feel better. :-)

New BBC Open Forum said...

"garrett" and "collegestudent11"...

Please make your profiles visible if you want to continue to post!

New BBC Open Forum said...

"garrett" wrote:

"I read Outreach Magazine's report of the largest churches in America this afternoon. I was sadly surprised to see Bellevue with only 7,500 in weekly attendance."

"emptyseat" wrote:

Here are the numbers put out by the official attendance counters:

Average Total Sunday School Attendance for all three hours:

August of 2006: 7,988
August of 2007: 6,214
December of 2007: 4,811

On December 23, 2007, the total attendance was 3,786.


Sounds like Outreach Magazine's numbers are a bit outdated.

Lin said...

Thanks for bringing up the clergy/laity distinction, Junk.

First of all, if all believers are brothers and sisters in Christ, who is our 'father'? Jesus Christ, of course.

There is a reason the term brethren was used in the NT. In middle eastern culture, sibling relationship of brothers with a living father was the most equal relationship there was in society.

All others were very status and fit into a strict social heirarchy.

There would not even have been the concept of 'laity' in the NT church.

I ran across this a while back which is very interesting:


"I’ve had the opportunity to talk about the concept of the Household of God to some church groups. What I’ve found revealing is the answer I get in response to a question I ask at the end of my presentation: Who is the paterfamilias (father)of the congregation? Every time the response has been, “the pastor!” This understanding is foreign to scripture and is inseparably tied to the myth of laity. The idea of laity, and our corresponding conception of clergy, are foreign to scripture. Where did we get the clergy/laity dichotomy?

The word “clergy” comes from the Greek word kleros, which means “lot” or “inheritance.” When used figuratively, as in, “we are God’s inheritance,” or “we share in the inheritance of Christ,” it refers without exception to the whole people of God. It never refers to a specially called elite subgroup of people. “Clergy” and “the people of God” (laos tou theou) are one in the same group!

The term “laity” is not a direct translation from the noun laos (“people”) as is often purported. It came indirectly from laos through the adjective laikos, meaning “of the common people.” Laikos is not in the New Testament and it is not in the ancient Greek version of the Old Testament called the Septuagint.

The first known mentions of laikos come from about 300 BCE. It was an adjective used in papyri to describe the profane things of the rural people in Egypt. The earliest known use of the word in Christian literature is in a letter by Clement of Rome to the Corinthian church, written circa 96 CE. In exhorting the church to preserve godly order, he alludes to the order of the Old Testament era. He discusses the responsibilities of those who were neither priests nor Levites, and calls them laymen (laikos anthropos.) (1 Clement 40:5) (1)

Laikos was used sparingly by Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotion in their Greek translations of the Old Testament during the second and third centuries. It was used as a synonym for bebelos, which means “profane” or “unholy.” Laikos was also a synonym in Greek literature for idiotes which meant “nonprofessional.” (It is the word from which we get “idiot.”) Laikos did not begin to enter the common Christian vocabulary until the third and fourth centuries. Over time and across languages, the adjective evolved into the noun “laity” to represent the unprofessional, common, and profane people contrasted with the educated, holy, and sacred people known as “clergy.” (2)

The Reformers saw this as a problem but they also struggled with church order. The outcome of their struggle to reconcile the issues was retention of the clergy/laity distinction while trying to elevate the laity. (3) Did they succeed? Ask yourself if you prefer ministry by a lay-Christian, anymore than you do surgery from a lay-surgeon, or legal advice from a lay-lawyer?

Real ministry, we are lead to believe, is what is done by a caste of Christians called “clergy,” those with special training and an extra endowment of spirituality. Laity exists to assist clergy in real ministry. We say we believe in the priesthood of believers but look at our language and structures. Clergy do “full-time” Christian ministry. We send people to seminaries to prepare for the ministry. We install them in our congregations as the minister. Prayer is deferred to the clergy because they have special status with God. The sick have not been cared for until visited by clergy.

Ask anyone for a definition of laity and it nearly always is given in terms of the negative:


Status – they don’t have reverend in front of their name.
Location – they don’t serve primarily in the church.
Education – they don’t have a degree from seminary.
Remuneration – they are not paid for church work.
Lifestyle – they are occupied with the “secular” instead of the “sacred.” (4)

When “laypeople” are referred to positively, they are said to be “the people of God” (laos tou theou.) True enough, but the “people of God” in contrast to whom? The clergy? Scripture only uses clergy (kleros) in reference to the whole people of God. Laos tou theou are the clergy!

The primary locus for ministry is the congregation in dispersion throughout the community during the week. We have moved the locus to the gathered congregation. Why? Because non-pastor Christians are “idiots!” :) (laity = laikos = idiotes = idiots.) They can be helpful assistants to clergy but they can not be fully trusted with the things of God. Real ministry can only be done by professional Christians, and since they can’t be everywhere, it is the job of the “laity” to bring unbelievers to the professionals for real ministry. Consequently, the saints are thoroughly under-equipped for ministry in dispersion, and they are demeaned and trivialized for ministry among the gathered. Am I exaggerating? Do people in the pews have any sense of call? Look at the best selling book list in recent years. What continues to be at the top? The Purpose-Driven Life. You may love the book or hate it, but it is being read by millions of people who have received no discernment of call and ministry from the Church.

The clergy/laity distinction has undermined the missional nature of the church. Dualism has been a persistent problem pitting sacred versus secular. Instead of equipping people for ministry in the world we have made the clients of "the clergy." Somewhat ironically, the place where find some of the most insightful thinking about "the laity" in recent years comes from the Roman Catholic tradition. Because of the sacramental role of the priest (which Protestants reject) they believe there is a need for a set apart group that presides over the sacraments. Yet in recent years there has been teaching to the effect that the work of the laity is out in the world and not inside the four walls of the church. Needlessly involving laity in the work of the clergy (and the clergy in the work of the laity) is destructive to the mission of the church. How much more so should this be true with regard to the descendants of the Protestant Reformation but it is far from being the case. "


I see his point but do not agree there is any distinction at all or should there be. We are all 'priests' with different gifts to edify the Body. WE are all at differing points in our maturity and walk with the Lord yet totally equal.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I inadvertently came across this this other day. David Houpt is the Middle School assistant at Bellevue. What a lovely example this sets -- and on a public website (blog) sponsored by Bellevue Baptist Church. He oversees the 6th grade ministry, and if you'll recall, "ace" was chosen as a SS teacher for the 6th grade department which should tell you something about the judgment (or lack thereof) of those responsible for selecting teachers.

Jamie Parker was said to have used the same offensive terminology in front of the whole adult choir at a rehearsal. Needless to say it didn't go over too well with many of them.

emptyseat said...

NewBBC,

If I had a 6th grader, I'd flee from that place as fast as I could.

I'm saddened to see such a casual vulgarity coming from someone who claims to be a minister.

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
eprov said...

The sarcastic condescension at leadership positions engenders the same all the way down the structure! The lack of sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and concern about offending others isn't given much thought.
The sad thing is that good people in those positions are 'trapped' for the need of income and their 'ministry' and see this but will not challenge it.
It is such a false sense of reality when the issue is power and control in the local church.
The obvious reality is that God is in control! Duh, who woulda thunk?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Just once, I'd like to go a week without hearing another story like this.

STOPTHEMADNESS said...

I must be feeling very brave today.(Because,) I have to disagree with you guys. What the leader said to the 6th graders was not vulgar. I mean it was very silly. And maybe the man hasn't enough vocabulary to speak to these kids in a more productive way. But he just sounds young, as in, he REALLY wants the kids to like him.
Lighten up? Maybe?

New BBC Open Forum said...

STM wrote:

"I have to disagree with you guys. What the leader said to the 6th graders was not vulgar. I mean it was very silly. And maybe the man hasn't enough vocabulary to speak to these kids in a more productive way. But he just sounds young, as in, he REALLY wants the kids to like him."

Sorry, I still think it's offensive. And on a church website no less. I heard the reaction of some of the choir members who heard JP use that same term during a choir rehearsal, so it's not just me. I agree he was likely trying to be "one of the guys," but he should be setting an example for them, not stooping to such a childish and common level. And if the man doesn't have enough vocabulary to relate to these kids in a decent, productive way, he has no business in such a position. Maybe some remedial English courses would be in order for young Mr. Houpt. And possibly a bar of soap.

watchman said...

God save us from the mindless and crass youth ministers being churned out of humanism 101 relevance factories ( aka seminaries) , rather than being formed and shaped by the Holy Spirit for the purposes of leading to maturity in the faith via Biblical discipleship... crass and vulgar routines posing as Godly ministry are a poor substitute for Holy Spirit , God-Fearing wise instruction.

Better yet...

Completely run the youth departments out of the Church altogether, and let's re-invite the Holy Spirit and the Word of GOD back into the main sanctuary, and see if God doesnt draw men to Himself, just as He did years ago, before men decided they knew better than HIM, and decided that the youth needed a seperate venue led by culturally relevant clowns.

Juss sayin'

concernedSBCer said...

In my humble opinion, I don't think we should have youth departments at all. We should teach Sunday School by age, but think for a minute...what do youth groups do? They divide and usurp the family!

When kids are home from school and could spend time with their family, where are they??? On a youth trip!

When kids need advice, who do they ask? Other kids! But those kids are in church and they'll give great advice, huh? How about asking the parents!

I realize I'm a homeschool Mom and therefore see the family in a bit different light, but the parent's position gets downplayed in many places and it shouldn't at church.

Many of the problems we see today are a DIRECT result of the breakdown, or watering down, of the family unit and the parental authority.

Get families sitting together on Sunday morning, use SS curriculum that has the same scripture for the whole family to encourage discussion, encourage holiday that are spent as families and I guarantee we would see some improvements in the general state of things.

Youth leaders seem to want to make church all fun and I submit to you that church is about GOD: learning and service and growth.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Oh, and in the grand scheme of things, I don't think that one ranks high on the list. I happened to stumble across it quite by accident. I just think that, along with the lack of standards in selecting certain 6th grade SS teachers, is a sorry symptom of a much bigger problem in that particular area of church leadership.

watchman said...

Youth Group Diaper contest sparks Police Investigation

YOUTH GROUP DIAPER CONTEST SPARKS POLICE INVESTIGATION

watchman said...

Who is KING in Church?
men, women, youth , or GOD ?

lets call for leaders to repent or leave for dethroning GOD and elevating men.
They arent leading, they are blindly destroying.
In the name of elevating men via satanic relevance.

watchman said...

The Church's VIEW of GOD

#1 issue

THE CHURCHES VIEW OF GOD IS ISSUE NUMERO UNO

MOM4 said...

STM wrote:

"I have to disagree with you guys. What the leader said to the 6th graders was not vulgar. I mean it was very silly. And maybe the man hasn't enough vocabulary to speak to these kids in a more productive way. But he just sounds young, as in, he REALLY wants the kids to like him."

Sorry, I still think it's offensive. And on a church website no less. I heard the reaction of some of the choir members who heard JP use that same term during a choir rehearsal, so it's not just me. I agree he was likely trying to be "one of the guys," but he should be setting an example for them, not stooping to such a childish and common level. And if the man doesn't have enough vocabulary to relate to these kids in a decent, productive way, he has no business in such a position. Maybe some remedial English courses would be in order for young Mr. Houpt. And possibly a bar of soap."

I think the Bible refers to this as "foolish jest". What we laugh at reveals what is inside our hearts. What offends us does the same...

IMO...Soap AND an apology, remove it from the website immediately is absolutely necessary.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I predicted this would happen before the end of the day. The offensive blog post by the 6th grade minister has been "edited" with the following note added:

Update 1/24/08: This entry has been edited and updated since it was originally posted. Thanks for the opportunity to correct it.

In case you missed it, this is the original page.

The revised page is here or here (should it need to be edited again).

The "opportunity"? Heh heh heh. I wonder why it took over a month to discover it needed to be "edited and updated"?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Well, mom4. One out of three isn't bad. It was removed.

Lin said...

Besides the childish language, I was concerned that a youth worker could not think of a 'thing to say'. From Genesis to Revelations and not a thing comes to mind of this leader of youth. Hmmmm. Scary.

imaresistor said...

Concerned...

Agreed on the youth programs, etc. A pastor I respect said something in regard to the youth that makes a 'world' of sense. He said that the you have the foolishness of youth and that the youth pastors of today are little older than the youth he leads, so that in essence what you have is a fellowship of fools. One youth leading another. He further stated that his church has better youth leaders...they are called 'dads'.

What most amazes me is that the parents of these youth will not leave these churches of Satan because of 'the youth program'...they are delusional in their thinking that their children 'need' these youth programs, when in reality these programs are an abomination.

Ima

oc said...

Youth ministry. A succession of events, trips, and 'feel good' lessons which keep the youth coming week after week to a building which they come to think of as "church". And after attending, they believe that they have worshipped. Often times, they have only worshipped only the youth minister.

Substance is not a requirement.
Uh, and neither is Jesus.

Jussayin'.
oc.

watchman said...

Former New Ager Warren Smith speaks regarding the New Age and the emerging Church and Purpose Driven Deception.

An incredibly poerful and timely warning to GODS FLOCK.

FORMER NEW AGER WARNS GODS CHURCH ABOUT NEW AGE DECEPTIONS

32yrs@bbc said...

Regarding youth leaders/programs in the church - bottom line is this: the church is no longer seeking the higher ground of righteousness. With open arms it has embraced the world culture instead of being salt and light to change the culture. Youth is now glorified and the aged are denegrated. Totally opposite of the principles of Scripture. At the least, the church is apathetic and lukewarm spiritually. We are now living in the church age of Laodicea (see Rev. 3:15,16).

Interesting, that with all the programs, trips, etc. the majority of youth abandon the church when they reach college age.Something is sadly wrong and as Dr. Phil would say: "How's that working for you?"

amazed said...

Way to go blog friends. The group at BBC apparently is still checking in with us. How else would they know that the comment by the youth minister was in poor taste?

As to JP making the same comment to the adult choir, they should have called his hand on the remark at that very moment.

concernedSBCer said...

32yrs: I couldn't agree more. If we are doing such a good job, WHY are youth/college dropping out at a rate over over 60%?

A trend I am seeing with my own college students and their friends is a return to a more structured service, like Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Orthodox. THey are tired of the fluff and WANT meat. Youth groups are a waste of time and money and do not accomplish what was hoped they would accomplish. They don't work. Move on.

All this goes to say that the church as a whole seems to be losing or have lost it's way. Lukewarm? Certainly.

Have comfort in the fact that there is always a Remnant.

amazed said...

NBBCOF--There is a good article in Washington Post.com about Mike Huckabee. It is titled "Huckabee learned politics in church" I think every one would enjoy reading it.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Huckabee Learned Politics in Church

New BBC Open Forum said...

Church takes cue from Broadway

New BBC Open Forum said...

Having looked at some of the photos and videos from the "Broadway" church performances, I don't see much difference between what they're doing and Bellevue's Singing Christmas Tree.

STOPTHEMADNESS said...

OK! Well my first thought was to get defensive and say "Ya'll sure are some holy folks on here..." but then I read what I had written before and it didn't QUITE come off the way it should have. When MY child was in 5th grade, at Bellevue, there is NO WAY that volunteers Or staff, would be teaching kids to talk this disrespectfully. AS IN, I guess now these kids can talk that way to their parents, and "Hey! it came from church..." But actually this is the thing--At the time I had a child in that department, everything was so special and organized. Since I never really walked him to 6th grade, I thought it was the same way. BUT, in 5th grade, the men taught the boys, The Bible was front and center. The girls acted like little ladies. I thought it was a little tight, but, Wow. I don't think moving that far in the other direction is good for those kids either, THEY NEED someone to respect and be accountable to. We have to hope that this man's attitude, of "it's all good--"doesn't manifest itself in any other ways. The young people can get slang and rock music on tv! So I apologize.

Junkster said...

From the article, "Church takes cue from Broadway":

Last year's season included six services based on "Oklahoma," "Fiddler on the Roof," "Jekyll & Hyde," "A Chorus Line," "Godspell" and "Barnum."

This year features four services based on "The Sound of Music," "Damn Yankees," "The Lion King" and "Les Miserables."


The list reads like a recent history of BBC!

"Oklahoma"
Country preacher makes it big as mega-church's new pastor...

"Fiddler on the Roof"
The pastor turns out to be a despotic "emperor" who plays violin while church crashes and burns...

"Jekyll & Hyde"
The darker hidden side of the pastor's personality emerges...

"A Chorus Line"
Pastor's new music minister sidekick implements "praise team" to supplant role of traditional choir...

"Godspell"
Some members fall under hypnotic spell of pastor's feel good sermons...

"Barnum"
Other members realize pastor is a huckster and snake oil salesman...

"The Sound of Music"
Meanwhile, music minister sidekick drowns out orchestra music with drums and guitars...

"Damn Yankees"
Church website publishes profanities...

"The Lion King"
Pastor's megalomania remains unchecked...

"Les Miserables"
Disenfranchised former members lament their plight...

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
oc said...

"The Odd Couple".
The pastor and the truth.

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
imaresistor said...

Off topic, but...what is the weather like in the Mfs area? Or surrounding area?

New BBC Open Forum said...

ima,

Like this. Put in any city and state or zip to get the NWS report. I think northern Mississippi is getting most of the freezing precip right now.

gmommy said...

Junk,
You have such a creative mind!!!

emptyseat said...

Such casualness surrounds too many Southern Baptist Churches in today's world.

The testimony of Christian living and sharing the Gospel to strangers and friends has been replaced by commercials, gimmicks, entertainment, and "come join us and feel good about yourself" religion as to not upset the masses.

Too many pastors rule instead of lead. Is a pastor leading if he has to constantly scream that he's the one in charge?

Church has become so program driven. Church calendars are filled out years in advance because targeted speakers are booked that far in advance.

There are so many now who make tons of money being traveling preachers.

Is this what God really has in mind for the church?

What are people really being drawn to in church these days?

Jukesters swaying to the music don't seem that Holy to me anymore.

The Holy Spirit should draw people to church. Church should be a place where the Word of God is preached and the people are led and changed by the Holy Spirit.

If you have a building with 5,000 people on Sunday morning that accept things that are not pure and things that are not Holy, what do you have?

gmommy said...

A Southern Baptist church in Arizona, meanwhile, finds itself in uncharted waters following the recent arrest of its youth minister on charges of sexual abuse of a 13-year-old girl.

"This is new territory for us," East Tucson Baptist Church Pastor John Anderson told the Tucson Citizen. "They don't teach this in seminary."


This is from the Ethics link...does anyone see anything familiar????

sickofthelies said...

When I was growing up down in South Mississippi, there was a church on every corner. I would frequently attend the First Baptist Church with friends. I remember that we went to SS and were taught straight from the Bible. I remember that we would go to worship service and we would hear God's word preached, straight from the Bible.

There was NOTHING " HIP" about it..

It was good enough then, why isn't it good enough now?

Today's kids ( including mine) have been spoiled to expect to be entertained. For that matter, adults have been spoiled, too.

I ran into someone the other day who told me how much they " LOVED" SG....I said nothing. I mean, where do you start with THAT? This person went on to say how wonderful all the " programs' are for the kids, yada yada yada...
I still said nothing. I smiled, and told them how nice it was to see them, and walked away.

That's where I am in all this.

BkWormGirl said...

Goodness gracious... it seems the seminary's are accepting a lot of really dense people. How do we get ourselves into a reoccurring predicament of seminary's not training their people how to handle these "unchartered waters." I think we need to start looking at the universities all these people are coming out of. It seems the "unchartered waters" defense is being taught somewhere. Someone who is good at statistics, what is the statistical chance of two people "randomly" choosing the same words?? Highly suspicious if you ask me.

I wanted to make a belated comment on the youth pastor's blog. I didn't find it offensive as in oh my goodness!! But I did find it disturbing, as someone else mentioned that he had nothing Biblical to say. Nothing from 66 books from God to encourage the students he allegedly ministers to? Gosh, that is kind of hard to believe. (By the way, I say "allegedly minsters" because based off this blog and other interaction with some of the youth staff at BBC, I find their "ministering" to be highly cermonial and very little reality.)

I was reminded of a great book I was given a couple of years ago called "ROCK solid kids" by Larry Fowler. The entire book is about how parents have gotten so used to delegating responsibility (the schools teach our children's, the sports teams offer activities, the sitter cares for them, the housekeeper cleans the house, etc) that parents have just delegated the authority of "spiritual" education to the church. An action that Fowler describes as a sin, and encourages the parents to first renew and develop their faith, and secondly take back the role of spiritual developer in their children.

I think it has become too easy for parents to just not think about what is going on. Parents have bought into the lie of "I deserve a break" and they just dump their kids at a church and don't worry about it. Until their children go to college, and then junior rejects religion because it never has and never will have an appeal. Our children don't need religion any more than we do. They need a personal relationship with God, and parents are the first line of demonstrating that relationship for our children.

Stepping off soapbox...well maybe...

STOPTHEMADNESS said...

Book, You are a very very bright person. Seriously. They Do all call it that.

johnthebaptist said...

Reading over a few of the later posts, I thought I would put my 2 cents in here....

I agree with emtyseat in that too much casualness is in SBC churches today....really in all churches today.

What it really boils down to is instead of the church making it mark on the world, the world has made its mark on the church.

In other words, the world is having a much greater influence in the church than the church is in the world.

Why is that?

1) I fully believe it is because we now have a complete lack of reverence for God. There isn't a holy fear/respect for Him or His word anymore. When the bible says that "we can come boldly to the throne of God" we take it to mean that we bust into heaven to tell God to meet this need and that want. We come to Him on our terms and not His.
Then we get discouraged when God does move heaven and earth to do what we want.

I believe on the last topic, some was upset that some folks advocated using the word "daddy" for God. When the bible says ABBA / Father, it refers to God as Daddy / Father. It reflects our relationship to God, "daddy" and His position to us as Father. That being said, I don't think it is very reverent to go into prayer calling God "Daddy".

I had to going into Life Church in Cordova a few months ago to check on something at the registration desk. On the tv screen in the lobby was the church service which was almost over. The "preacher" was "praying". He was prancing back and forth across the stage speaking (praying) a mile a minute with a few hand claps thrown in as to keep God's attention.

That really bothered me! I thought how arrogant is that?! How irreverent is that?! Granted, I don't know the mans heart for God alone knows that but I tell you what, I have a hard time imagining that God was honored in that.

We need a holy reverence when we come into the throne room of God. We need respect when we pray. We need humility. Who do we think we are when we come to God in such disrespectful ways?

2) We have lost our desire for personal holiness. Friends it is true. Christians today are some of the most unholy people around. We get just enough of the world to be cool/accepted, but not enough to be considered "worldly". Thing is, God does consider us worldly.

We are more like the world than we are like Christ. We talk about how Jesus has changed our heart and lives but there isn't much of a difference in the way we live our lives from the world. Is it any wonder that the lost folks have a hard time with believing what we say when we live like they do?

When will our hearts yearn to be Holy as God is Holy? What will it take for us to reach that point in our lives?

What will it take for us to shed a tear for a lost soul?

What will it take for us to spend a "sweet hour in prayer" instead of just singing about it?

What will it take to make us to study to bible as we should? That we memorize the bible so that we can truly say,"thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee".

We need to repent of our sins and seek to have personal holiness in every area of our lives. We need to live like Jesus commanded us to instead of living like a lost man/woman.

There is much more that could be said but time and space limit me.

I would say that we should stop blaming the seminaries on not teaching the preachers everything there is to know. Some things are just learned through "on the job training".

There will be "unchartered waters" in ministry. Why would we expect our leadership to know how to deal with every situation just because he went to seminary?

However, there is no excuse for not doing the right thing. If anyone has any common sense, they should know to remove child molester from the children. They should know to move the sex pervert from our women. Stealing money? Remove them from the opportunity. There are laws to follow. Follow them. If you don't know what to do, ask someone who does! Not much waters that haven't been chartered by someone somewhere.

What happened to good old fashioned common sense?


Preachers, deacons, leaders, lay folks alike need to all get back to the Word of God with diligence, humility, and whole heartedness. We all need to strive to have personal holiness as a common characteristic in a christians life with a deep, respect/reverance for God and His word.

With that, we will have a church where God is worshiped in spirit and truth while making an impact on the world around us for Christ.

oc said...

Bkwormgirl said:
Our children don't need religion any more than we do. They need a personal relationship with God, and parents are the first line of demonstrating that relationship for our children.


oc says:
AMEN!!!! If anything deserves an "amen", that certainly does!
So I'll say it again...
AMEN!!!!.

Jussayin'.
oc.

oc said...

I'm sick of this "uncharted waters" crap. It doesn't take a seminary degree, or even elementary school to figure out that something should be done when a predator stalks your halls.

Any idiot would know it. Some idiot did, and did nothing.

oc.

New BBC Open Forum said...

It's an epidemic. Google for "uncharted waters" and "pastor" or "minister" or "clergy abuse" or related words. See how many hits you get. It does seem this is often the catch phrase used when churches are forced to deal with clergy sexual abuse. You'd think by now enough of them would have navigated these waters that they'd no longer be considered "uncharted."

gmommy said...

JTB,
What in the world are you doing up at 2:47!!!
But what a message!...if I were in attendance when you preached that message, I would be your Amen person!!!!! Thank you!

Everyone hold your stones but I'd like to pose a question or concern which in my opinion is in the area of personal holiness and living differently from the world as JTB's post referenced.

I don't know how to get into this smoothly so here goes....
I don't think having a drink is the end all sin. I don't think it is more important than a million things...like telling the truth, obeying the law and diciplines of prurity and godliness....BUT....I think it has a drug affect on people...I think it has ruined lives....I think there are more people that abuse it and use it to numb out than people that take an occasional glass of wine.

I am seeing alot too many people that have left BBC now feeling free to indulge. Some used to be deacons and SS teachers.
I admit that when I was so angry at DC, SG, and BM for standing up in front of the church and lying...I went to a liquor just to be rebellious and hoping someone would see me and talk about me.

But I fear for this "freedom" some of my friends feel they have now. If they are getting "lit" out in public places ...if nothing else... isn't this a way to make our weaker brother stumble????

What about those that will become addicted...being a Christian doesn't keep you from having that tendency.
What about the money being given to that industry????
What about being different from the world???
Isn't part of personal holiness taking care of our body...our temple???
Does anyone understand where the balance is on this???
I am troubled and conflicted.I am being told it's my "BBC legalism" talking when I express my concern to some of my friends about this.

gmommy said...

One more thing on all that....
something in my gut hurts when I hear scripture being quoted by a person obviously affected by alcohol.JMO

Lynn said...

oc said...

I'm sick of this "uncharted waters" crap. It doesn't take a seminary degree, or even elementary school to figure out that something should be done when a predator stalks your halls.

Any idiot would know it. Some idiot did, and did nothing.

oc.

9:41 AM, January 26, 2008


If it was really uncharted waters....why is it then that several states have or are considering laws making child molestation worthy of the needle or electric chair? Obviously the government takes this issue more seriously than churches.

MOM4 said...

johnthebaptist,
It would be nice if people like David Coombs read this blog...maybe he would "get it" if he read with an open mind and heart. Your post about personal holiness is outstanding. Maybe we should email it to him:)so he will know where we are coming from and "it" is not about "change"...
On another note, I do not believe that there are "uncharted waters" in ministry or any where else. Scripture tells us how to handle each and every situation according to God's will, and that there is "nothing new under the sun". If we know and stay in the Word, and seek the Holy Spirit's guidance, there is no reason to make errors in judgment in ministy matters, especially those as serious as child endangerment and abuse, which as you said, should have just been a matter of plain ole common sense, but I digress.
I also know that mistakes of the mind and the heart can be made, but I know that if and when these mistakes occur, it is because of lack of Holy Spirit wisdom and an overabundance of SELF.
The Lord is not thru with Bellevue, but the Bellevue we knew under the leadership of Adrian Rogers is gone. I do not want to imply that he should be put on a pedestal other than to say that in all the years I sat under his teaching, he always encouraged us to be more like Jesus, not the world.

ezekiel said...

Gmommy,

When making the decision to drink or not to drink, one consideration (causing stumbling is another) is what has a tendency to come out of the mouth when one imbibes.

Mat 15:10 And he called the people to him and said to them, Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.

I have known people that could drink and their manners, and speech never change. On the other hand we all know about folks that drink and say things they would never otherwise. Maybe that would be a good starting point.

On the other hand we have probably all known folks that profess to be christians and are teetotalers but say the most vile things even a total drunk wouldn't.

I think it more important what comes out of the mouth as it proceeds from the heart...some folks don't need to drink because it shows what is really in there.

Some folks that don't drink might need to stop speaking like they do.....

New BBC Open Forum said...

Did anyone see today's Commercial Appeal letters to the editor? This is the January 21st article that some of the letter writers referenced in which Steve Gaines is quoted.

That second letter to the editor -- signed "Cary Vaughn" -- did I read that letter correctly? I get the impression the writer is pro-choice and pro-homosexual. Public records indicate there's another "Cary Vaughn" in Memphis, this one with the middle initial "S". Bellevue's Cary E. Vaughn lives in Millington. I bet his phone's been ringing this morning!

Lynn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

Lynn,

I don't think all his comments are true. Sadly, I think if legalized abortion were put to a popular vote today, it would easily pass.

I also don't think all the pro-choice, pro-life litmus tests for presidential candidates make much difference. The president cannot singlehandedly do anything to overthrow Roe vs. Wade. The president does sometimes have the opportunity to appoint Supreme Court justices who may be pro-life, so indirectly the president's stance on abortion could matter, but we've got a Supreme Court right now that's stacked on the side of pro-life, and they haven't even considered a move in that direction. It would take an outcry from the majority of voters (which I don't see happening) and a congress that would go along with them. Have you seen congress do anything constructive lately?

Lynn said...

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lynn,

I don't think all his comments are true. Sadly, I think if legalized abortion were put to a popular vote today, it would easily pass.

I also don't think all the pro-choice, pro-life litmus tests for presidential candidates make much difference. The president cannot singlehandedly do anything to overthrow Roe vs. Wade. The president does sometimes have the opportunity to appoint Supreme Court justices who may be pro-life, so indirectly the president's stance on abortion could matter, but we've got a Supreme Court right now that's stacked on the side of pro-life, and they haven't even considered a move in that direction. It would take an outcry from the majority of voters (which I don't see happening) and a congress that would go along with them. Have you seen congress do anything constructive lately?

11:51 AM, January 26, 2008

Your right. But then again...if Pro is Opposite of Con....then Congress is opposite of Progress.

I'm not even a supporter of this money giveaway they're doing. Its just making the problem worse. Especially when they're giving rebates to those who don't even pay taxes.

But my point was that, how can anyone take Gaines' comments seriously given the grievous acts he's committed in his 2+ years he's been at Bellevue.

Lynn said...

Edited my Previous Post:

Call me crazy here...but how can anyone take Steve Gaines comments seriously? Even though in the case of Aborton, Steve Gaines is right...his track record as a pastor doesn't do much to give him credibility. I mean, he did protect a pedophile. Its hard for me to listen to his comments without being critical of him based on his actions.

gmommy said...

When I saw that SG was the speaker for Life....I thought...

the Catholics must appreciate the way SG made them look (in handling abuse by priests) because of the dishonest and uncaring way he handled the PW crime...(and still believes he did right)

I was also embarrassed. Apparently RO is a big supporter of the event SG spoke at.
I knew he would do what he did....make statements and not have facts and stats to back it up along with his "down home" unpolished (to be polite)presentation.

I don't want to be identified with his "image".JMO

32yrs@bbc said...

The Lord is not thru with Bellevue, but the Bellevue we knew under the leadership of Adrian Rogers is gone. I do not want to imply that he should be put on a pedestal other than to say that in all the years I sat under his teaching, he always encouraged us to be more like Jesus, not the world.

10:44 AM, January 26, 2008
----------------------------
Mom4,
Only the Lord knows if He is through with Bellevue. But you are correct in saying that under Dr.
Rogers we were encouraged to be more like Jesus and less like the world. The man was not perfect (he said so himself!) but he had integrity, loved the Lord, loved His Word, loved the people of his pasture, and loved his family. Those were all a given. He never brought shame upon the church, and
sin within the ranks was dealt with swiftly and scripturally. How those who sat under his teaching and leadership for so many years can settle for less is beyond my comprehension.

oc said...

32 said:
How those who sat under his teaching and leadership for so many years can settle for less is beyond my comprehension.

oc says:
Because it feels good. Sin usually does.


oc.

Lin said...

gmommy,

The whole drinking issue is a non starter. I think it has become sort of silly in some SBC circles. Why would we so offended at wine drinking? The scripture only deals with drunkeness.

I agree with Ez, it is what comes out of the mouth that is in the heart.

It is funny...but I heard an intinerant pastor say that being around people who are drinking, etc would never be a temptation for him but going to Bass Pro Shop with friends may cause him to sin. :o)

oc said...

Lin said:
It is funny...but I heard an intinerant pastor say that being around people who are drinking, etc would never be a temptation for him but going to Bass Pro Shop with friends may cause him to sin. :o)


oc says:
Going to a motorcycle shop can do it to me. I quickly become dissatisfied with the bike I have. And it's sin. Covetousness is a sin. My 1999 bike is no longer good enough. I think I need more... a longer rake, a longer stretch, fatter rear tire... more horse power....

Sin will hunt you down according to your desires. It's not all about being a drunk, or a wife beater, or drug addict. Sin will try to make you think you are ok, because you aren't putting a needle into your veins, or beating your wife. But if you are thinking that you are better than the next guy, OR DESERVE BETTER, then BINGO! You've sinned.

The only remedy is Him. He who lives and has no sin. He knows, and has given you a way to avoid what you really deserve.

Jussayin'.
oc.

gmommy said...

Lin,
I don't know what a non starter is :)
And I'm not freaking out....But I do have a choice for my life and I am concerned for some of my friends that have had problems in the past with addictive behavior but now they are suddenly "free" to drink...probably because it's a non starter :)

gmommy said...

BTW,
I listened to audio sermon links Lin has emailed to me ...sure made cleaning house a lot more meaningful!!!
Thanks, Lin!

Lin said...

"But I do have a choice for my life and I am concerned for some of my friends that have had problems in the past with addictive behavior but now they are suddenly "free" to drink...probably because it's a non starter :)"

I see your point. If they have a tendancy toward drunkeness or idolizing booze, then it is a problem...just like Motercycles and the Bass Pro Shop can be a problem. Or FOOD!~ Chocolate. Clothes. Cars.

johnthebaptist said...

Boy, people sure took me wrong when I said uncharted waters.
(Actually, I said "unchartered" waters but I was so tired I didn't know that I was typing.) Sorry.

What I was trying to say was that even if you consider yourself in "uncharted waters" in a situation, you need to ask someone who has been there before. Being in a situation where you never been before is not an excuse to do nothing. That is why God gave us common sense. That is also why He gave us the bible.

Mom4, there is no uncharted waters in the ministry. Maybe not totally uncharted but there are places I have sailed where I am sure that I had not sailed that way before.

One example:

When I was an interim pastor about 3 years ago, the church had just split because the pastor had an affair. There were about 8 people left, most were related to each other, the denomination leaders (not SBC) wouldn't help, no one would help. I couldn't find anyone willing to help! What does a pastor do when you never been through this before? <--uncharted waters for me.

All I knew to do was preach the Word, love them, listen to their frustrations, encourage them, and minister to them the best I could. I just tried to be there for them. I tried to keep things "business" as usual. They needed time to heal. I needed time to figure out what to do.

God blessed, they healed. A new pastor was called and the church is growing.

My point being that in ministy, there are things that God allows you to work out yourself... ( in His watchcare of course). I grew like I wouldn't have if someone other than God had told me everything to do.

Now, I am not saying that Steve or any other pastor or church can use uncharted waters as an excuse. It is absolutely not. Common sense & most of all the bible is clear on what our actions should be. Like someone said before, it isn't uncharted waters if there are laws to govern it.

I just wish everyone could lead a church just once to get an idea of what it is like. It is unlike anything you can ever imagine.

I hope everyone understands what I am trying to say.

johnthebaptist said...

gmommy said.....


I don't know how to get into this smoothly so here goes....
I don't think having a drink is the end all sin. I don't think it is more important than a million things...like telling the truth, obeying the law and diciplines of prurity and godliness....BUT....I think it has a drug affect on people...I think it has ruined lives....I think there are more people that abuse it and use it to numb out than people that take an occasional glass of wine.


JTB--- you said that you don't think taking a drink is the end all sin. I would agree. However, if it is a sin, just supposing, why do it? Can we pick between "little" sins and "big" sins and still be in fellowship with God? Why would we as His children want to do anything that might be sin or that would bring reproach upon His holy Name?


I am seeing alot too many people that have left BBC now feeling free to indulge. Some used to be deacons and SS teachers.

JTB--- why do people feel they now have freedom to do whatever they want to do just because what has happened to BBC? Where did this freedom all of a sudden come from?
One would wonder if they are real believers. Only asking not saying so.


I admit that when I was so angry at DC, SG, and BM for standing up in front of the church and lying...I went to a liquor just to be rebellious and hoping someone would see me and talk about me.


JTB---if we would all be this honest. Thanks gmommy for being transparent. I hope you understand that intentionally being rebellious is not condusive to being a godly person that we are called to be. : )


But I fear for this "freedom" some of my friends feel they have now. If they are getting "lit" out in public places ...if nothing else... isn't this a way to make our weaker brother stumble????

JTB---Yes, this will cause a weaker brother to stumble. Moreover, it will hinder their relationship with God. What a price to pay! They will now have absolutely no witness to those who sees them "getting lit". Who wants to listen to someone talk about how Jesus has changed their life when they are living just like a lost person?



What about those that will become addicted...being a Christian doesn't keep you from having that tendency.
What about the money being given to that industry????
What about being different from the world???
Isn't part of personal holiness taking care of our body...our temple???
Does anyone understand where the balance is on this???
I am troubled and conflicted.I am being told it's my "BBC legalism" talking when I express my concern to some of my friends about this.

JTB--- you ask very good questions. The bible answers those questions which I think you know that.

It amazes me how people will see how close they can to sin without being worldly. God draws the line and they put their toes on the line to see how close they can get without crossing the line. Why do we do this?

Why do we try to see what we can get away with? Sin is sin. God says so. He also says that there is a price (consequences) to pay.

If it is BBC legalism, get rid of it. If it is bible, stand on it.


If they can't handle it, you might need new friends. I don't mean to be harsh but when the bible outlines how we should live, act ect.,there will be some who call it legalism when it is just bible. That is what drives the seeker/pdl stuff. They would just explode if they had to go to a church that preached the word of God with clarity, power, and the annointing of the Holy Spirit. Those tickling ears they have would really be longing to be tickled again.

What cost are we willing to pay to be faithful to God and His word?

What cost are we willing to pay to be accepted by the world?

I would ask...do we as christians want to see how close we can come to sin or see how close we can come to God?

The bible tells us to "abhor evil, cleave to what is good".

God is good.

The bible asks us; Today, who will you serve? I pray we will answer, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

May it be so.

Bless you gmommy.

oc said...

I just wish everyone could lead a church just once to get an idea of what it is like. It is unlike anything you can ever imagine.



oc says:
Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt. And the scars...

But I would do it again...maybe one day... and maybe I will.



oc.

Junkster said...

johnthebaptist said...
I just wish everyone could lead a church just once to get an idea of what it is like. It is unlike anything you can ever imagine.


I'm sure it would be an eye opener for many. Likewise, I wish that all pastors had to work full-time in a non-Christian workplace for at least a few (4 or 5) years before becoming full-time pastors.

I have known so many men who went to Bible college, then seminary, then into church work, only ever working part-time in a secular job for a few years (if even that) before entering the pastorate. Very nice for them, but they lack connection to or knowledge of just what life is like for those whose daily lives are spent around mostly non-Christians.

Even just a few years of making a living in a settling like their church members work in would help pastors really relate and help them realize that some of the things they place a lot of focus on are very disconnected from the realities of daily life in modern society. It would also help them see how much more important it is to equip the congregation to be an effective witness and to do the work of ministry outside the church than it is to enlist them into activities and programs that take place within the congregation.

This is not meant as a slam on pastors in any way -- God bless them for all they do. Just saying I think they'd be much more effective if they had lived what most of their church members live. Even more so if they had to take a "refresher" jaunt into secular work for a year or so every now and then.

Junkster said...

johnthebaptist said...
I just wish everyone could lead a church just once to get an idea of what it is like. It is unlike anything you can ever imagine.

oc said ...
Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt. And the scars...



There's a T-shirt?? Is it one of those that says "Propery of God"?

gmommy said...

Nass,
Who is the big headed guy in the picture???? Kinda sorta looks like a young "somebody"...did you do some fancy photo shopping?????

New BBC Open Forum said...

junk wrote:

"There's a T-shirt?? Is it one of those that says 'Propery of God'?"

No, these...

1

2

3

New BBC Open Forum said...

gmom,

Any similarities to actual persons, living or dead, is simply a delusion of your mind -- or a coincidence.

No, I didn't have to shop for that photo. It was free on the internet. :-)

concernedSBCer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
concernedSBCer said...

T-shirts: Okay, 2 and 3 are hysterical....or sad, depending on your point of view.

:-/

(Sorry, it's getting late...errors abound!)

oc said...

Junkster said:
There's a T-shirt?? Is it one of those that says "Propery of God"?



oc says:
God bless you man. You know where I'm coming from. And I won't forget it. I owe you.

Yours.

oc.

Junkster said...

Junkster said...

"There's a T-shirt?? Is it one of those that says 'Propery of God'?"

New BBC Open Forum said...
No, these...

1

2

3


Wow -- can you even imagine someone willing to wear that 1st t-shirt? (No answer required.)

Junkster said...

oc said...
I owe you.


I forgive that debt!

:)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Bellevue's staff members were all wearing their "Bellevue Loves Memphis" shirts this morning.

Tonight's sermon looks like it might be another sheep beater. It's entitled "When Godly People Disagree." You can tune in live at 6:00 p.m. CST on the internet on Bellevue's website. Click on "Bellevue Media - Live On Demand On the Go," then where it says "Click here" in the "Watch Live" section.

Lin said...

Junk, I could not agree more with your post on working in the real world. Since I am around seminary students a lot and grew up with them, I know the attitude is one of. 'I have to work at this job until I find a church job'.

Ministry as a profession? I can see the biblical arguements for it but I can also see we have read a lot into scripture about this.

I am so proud of my nephew who has decided to be a bi-vocational preacher. He wants to 'make tents' and preach. I think we make too much out of 'leading a flock'. The Body is made up of many members and we cannot do without all. All true believers are gifted and are part of the ecclesia. The part of the Body that preaches, needs to be in study and prayer. Other Body members need to be doing other things in the church.

Too many preachers out there think they are CEO's. When, in fact, they are just one member of a body who will be held accountable for what they preach!

gmommy said...

To think .... if SG wouldn't have come and turned BBC upside down...our blog wouldn't have started,
I would have never known Christa Brown's blog existed so I wouldn't have known to research all the SBC stuff,
or known about all the links on Lin's blog and all the links she sends...
and all the theology discussions would have never taken place and I would have ignored most of the things I have now questioned....
and would not have gone to a Presbty. church,
or stopped listening to all the preachers that sounded so easy with their formulas....

and my head would not be hurting SO BADLY right now!!!

Thank you Steve Gaines for being so boldly disobedient to God's Word and so boldly arrogant....that I had no choice but to wake up and seek the Truth.

oc said...

Junk said:
I forgive that debt!

:)



Somehow I knew you would.

oc.

Lynn said...

Lin said...

Junk, I could not agree more with your post on working in the real world. Since I am around seminary students a lot and grew up with them, I know the attitude is one of. 'I have to work at this job until I find a church job'.

Ministry as a profession? I can see the biblical arguements for it but I can also see we have read a lot into scripture about this.

I am so proud of my nephew who has decided to be a bi-vocational preacher. He wants to 'make tents' and preach. I think we make too much out of 'leading a flock'. The Body is made up of many members and we cannot do without all. All true believers are gifted and are part of the ecclesia. The part of the Body that preaches, needs to be in study and prayer. Other Body members need to be doing other things in the church.

Too many preachers out there think they are CEO's. When, in fact, they are just one member of a body who will be held accountable for what they preach!

1:17 PM, January 27, 2008

Open memo to all mega church pastors....theres only room for one CEO....that isn't you...its God.

New BBC Open Forum said...

This morning's sermon was about giving, and of course "tithing" was emphasized. As Steve Gaines has stated before and stated again this morning, "If you're not tithing, you're robbing God." But Should the Church Teach Tithing?

gmommy said...

Please see Christa's most recent post.
Governor Huckabee is making an appearance at the church that has also turned a blind eye to clergy sexual abuse.
His presence speaks volumes about his heart to me.

Children are being sacrificed on the alter of "SBC Unity", position , and power.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Link

Lynn said...

gmommy said...

Please see Christa's most recent post.
Governor Huckabee is making an appearance at the church that has also turned a blind eye to clergy sexual abuse.
His presence speaks volumes about his heart to me.

Children are being sacrificed on the alter of "SBC Unity", position , and power.

4:10 PM, January 27, 2008

This is the same guy who took out an attack ad questioning Romney's ability to run the country because he's a mormon. For all intents and purposes, Huckabee is a liberal running in conservative's clothing. Its really sad that we cannot even trust government officials or potential government officials to protect our kids from predators. I guess this is a lesson in why as parents, we have to be extra vigilant in regards to our surroundings to protect our kids.

New BBC Open Forum said...

The hour of sheep beating is upon us. Don your armor, sheeps!

Any of these is appropriate for sheeps, too:

1

2

3

4

5

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
This morning's sermon was about giving, and of course "tithing" was emphasized. As Steve Gaines has stated before and stated again this morning, "If you're not tithing, you're robbing God." But Should the Church Teach Tithing?


Very interesting and worth reading! Thanks for sharing.

gopher said...

If Steve states:
"If you're not tithing, you're robbing God."

What is Steve doing when he takes that exorbitant salary and perks, and is always taking off called?????

sickofthelies said...

Someone help me out here, please.

I just do not understand...

How can a mother " LOVE" SG and all he stands for...while knowing that SG put HER children at risk?

What is it about " SG allowed an admitted sexual pervert loose and even gave him a raise" that does not offend them and make them take their kids and run as fast as they can?

How does SG have any credibility AT ALL with any mother that sits in that worship center?

Do they not CARE what happens to their kids?

Do they not CARE that their child was put at risk?

What is it that keeps them coming back to hear this man that has so totally dissed them AND their children?????

I love my son waaaay too much to allow him to be anywhere near that man. How do we know that the next time this comes up, he won't do the very same thing?

I suppose that some parents just dn't care. Mrs. PW didn't care.

gmommy said...

SOTL,
They don't want to deal with the reality of the lies and evil.
Their bubble is more important....denial.

What about the fact that he also preaches awful??????

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hey, "gopher"!

Your comment was so important, rather than bury it here in the comment section, I've featured the information from it in a new topic.

Thanks,

NBBCOF

32yrs@bbc said...

New BBC Open Forum said...

Tonight's sermon looks like it might be another sheep beater. It's entitled "When Godly People Disagree." You can tune in live at 6:00 p.m. CST on the internet on Bellevue's website. Click on "Bellevue Media - Live On Demand On the Go," then where it says "Click here" in the "Watch Live" section.

1:07 PM, January 27, 2008
-----------------------
I listened last night. I was astounded when he had an old C.A.
picture placed on the screens and talked about the split 47 yrs. ago - how certain factions within the church tried to oust Dr. Pollard, but he won, and people left and formed new churches (plural). The only one I know of is 2nd. Bapt. Tho' he did not mention himself, the inference was definitely there. The comparison is like apples and oranges. There are those sitting under his teaching who are totally ignorant; and there are those who are willingly ignorant. As the old saying goes: "Ignorance is bliss."
Altho' this cont. harping is frustrating to many of us, we must remember that he is God's business.
We cannot "fix it." The Lord both
promotes and pulls down (see
Ps. 75:6) and all for His divine purposes. BBC is not "our" church nor is it SG's church; it is God's church. It is ultimately in His hands and in His plans.