There's an interesting thread going on the FBC Jacksonville blog regarding Dr. Sheri Klouda, the Hebrew professor at SWBTS who was fired by Paige Patterson because she happens to be female. While the article is written in the context of FBC Jax's Mac Brunson being less than truthful when he used Dr. Klouda's lawsuit as an illustration in a recent Sunday night sermon, it provides an opportunity for Dr. Klouda to respond to allegations that she was offered another position at SWBTS for the same pay and that it was somehow her fault that her family experienced financial difficulties.Wade Burleson wrote a detailed article about the case here.
SBC Outpost has more relevant commentary here.
How did we get to this point?
73 comments:
The last link (showing changes that have taken place in the SBC) are so revealing!
Why would this group NOT be referred to as the "good ol boys."
It IS a club.
As someone with a D.Min. degree, Dorothy Patterson has probably had some Hebrew during the course of her studies but probably not enough to teach it.
My beef isn't with Dorothy Patterson; it's with her husband. Who knows? Perhaps she didn't agree with her husband's treatment of Dr. Klouda, but she wouldn't dare publicly say anything about it if she didn't. (Note the qualifier "if." I have no idea what her thoughts are.)
This gives some interesting insight into Dr. Mrs. Patterson's life.
As does this. I don't agree with some of her beliefs, but she's entitled to her opinion as am I.
This is the way we got here.
2 Peter 3:16 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
Acts 20 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
1 Cor 15: 45 Thus it is written, The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
If one is truly walking in the Spirit, abiding in Him then one has been reconciled to God and one's husband is Christ. Imagine yourself in the garden of eden walking alongside Christ (last Adam) and being visited by the Father every morning.
If churches today were truly walking in the spirit, they would mirror the body that Paul talks about in 1 Cor 12.
But look around at what folks call the body today. It has the arm telling the leg that it has authority over it and that it must submit.....or the hand has authority over the toe and it must submit.
Nothing more than a power grab foisted upon us by ruthless leaders (wolves) that haven't figured out that it is all about Christ and nothing about them.
Don't ever let a preacher tell you that you are saved and have been reconciled to God and then turn around and tell you that you are still outside the garden. (Gen 3:16). Ask him how he got back to the garden but you didn't. Ask him how he got reconciled but you are still under the curse.
Beware anyone that won't let you into the garden. He is operating in the flesh, his message is flesh and his motives are wrong. He desires his earthly reward and he is fast on his way to getting it.
"I believe in woman submitting to men."
Where in Scripture is this written? Or is that just your personal belief?
Oh, and to answer your question, it's my understanding that Dr. Dorothy Patterson teaches "women's studies" and only to women.
Serious question not meant to be argumentative, but I'm just trying to understand how these three statements aren't contradictory:
1. "I believe in woman submitting to men."
2. "However, in a business, there is no reason to not have a woman in charge, if she is most qualified."
3. "I define submission as surrendering to someone else's leadership."
Nass, Thanks for putting up this post. More people need to know what their tithe dollars are being used to fund in the SBC. Big salaries for guys like Patterson who think they have to sin to follow scripture?.. He cannot even brag about success at SWBTS so what are we getting for our money that not only pays him a big salary but pays for his home, car and lots of perks?
It's "women's studies."
Think "Beth Moore," "Donna Gaines," "Girl Talk," silly costumes, tea parties, and the likes of this and this. Basically, I think it's defining "women's roles" for them and making sure they stay in their places. Get the picture?
Lin's links:
1
2 (This one is on the front page.)
bkwormgirl,
I'm still wondering where you find the Scriptural justification for no woman being in authority over any man, or that women are supposed to "submit" to men besides their husbands.
"When I owned my own business, I only employed female employees. Is that discriminatory, probably so, but we were successful, and I didn't violate my conscience."
So if I understand you correctly, you're saying it would have violated your conscience to have hired a male employee? You're certainly entitled to your beliefs, but I don't understand where that's coming from. Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand where this idea came from. Or perhaps I misunderstood.
"Yeah, I know. I'm on an oc rant again. Fixin' to get a bunch of enemies. But I just can't shut up today"
As your "older sister" who has witnessed your remorse after some of your "rants" in the past...I am lovingly asking you to take a deep breath....one more.....
now...lets chill for a little while and let the rant phase pass.
Then post so all will enjoy and grow.....good idea??? :)
New BBC Open Forum said...
As someone with a D.Min. degree, Dorothy Patterson has probably had some Hebrew during the course of her studies but probably not enough to teach it.
No teling; she might have had many Hebrew course, but it wouldn't surprise me if she hasn't had much if any. Most of the SBC seminaries don't require Hebrew for several of their Masters degrees, and most D.Min programs are more "practical" than "academic", and biblical languages aren't normally part of those programs.
But is is interesting that D.Min. stands for "Doctor of Ministry" and that it is considered a practitioner's degree, meaning that those who have the degrees are by definition in "vocational Christian ministry". That is, they are considered Ministers. If a Minister isn't the same thing as a Pastor, I don't know what else it would be. Guess Mrs. Dr. Patterson is a Women's Minister.
According to Mr. Dr. Patterson's testimony and the legal arguments used by SWBTS, seminary faculty members are not subject to governmental anti-discrimination regulations because a seminary is an ecclesiastical body -- meaning, legally speaking, that a seminary is the same as a church, and its faculty are the same as pastors or ministers. Their argument was that since the government can't prevent a church from limiting the role of women, then the government can't prevent a seminary from limiting the role of women.
If you follow the legal arguments used SWBTS to their logical conclusion, then you have to say that if it is ok for a woman to be the equivalent of a pastor (faculty member) as long as she only teaches other women, then it would be ok for a woman to be a pastor if she only pastored other women. So, in theory, if a congregation was limited to only female members (and an autonomous church can set its own requirements for membership), they could have a woman as pastor.
But the Baptist Faith & Message 2000 says that a woman can't be a pastor! What a dilemma! Which rule should they follow? The one that says a woman can never be a pastor, or the one that says she can if she teaches only women?
Guess that's the problem with living by man-made rules (in this case, "man" meaning both "humans", and "males"), rather than living by God's revelation (Word) and by the personal leadership of His Holy Spirit.
Junk! You are brilliant. I had not picked up on that. Patterson's defense goes against the BF&M taken to it's logical conclusion.
Some of our thinking and beliefs were shaped and formed in our minds without our realizing it.
We are in the South.
We were read fairy tales as children where the knight or prince always rescued the fair maiden.
We watched movies where the man carried the girl off into the sunset.
Even Desi lorded over Lucy.
(I confess that I secretly hoped I would someday be rescued by a strong courageous man once upon a time!!)
Most of us in a certain age range have been taught in some form at church,work, church...that we needed to look up to the men, take a back seat, let them speak out first...
So lets please not expect BWG to back up her opinion with scripture here and now.
We are all learning and growing.
One year ago, the subject of women and men in the church was of no importance to me.
God is opening our eyes.
His timing has always been better than mine.JMO
Correction: Home,church,and work.
sorry!!
BWG,
Please know that I didn't think you were trying to tell anyone the way you believe is the right and only way....didn't get that from you at all.
Also, I didn't intend to offend with the fairy tales or Southern stuff
(that was my experience :).....I just wanted us all to give each other room on this.
I like the definition you used for leadership!
Bkwormgirl, you have mail! :)
Wow, OC, I get you brother! While totally acknowledging the Holy, inspired Word of God, Every Word, Jot & tittle, God also gave us the Holy Spirit as Comforter and Guide. The Holy Spirit helps us in prayer, when we don't even know the right words to say or what to pray, and that personal relationship goes a long way. I am not talking compromise, please don't put words in my mouth. I need and love God now, not just for His saving me and making a place for me in Heaven. God won't contradict His Word, yet lovingly guides us to His Truth. I sometimes sense that some here who claim others are legalistic, are guilty of that themselves. Thanks Brother, for posting. OX
I didn't hear Lin say any of those things, but y'all work it out.
Interesting article by Paul Burleson.
OC....this behavior reminds me of another blogger who lives to stir up stuff.
I don't think it's right to drag Ox into this or put words in Lin's mouth just because you are having a bad day or you are bored.
Now, attack me and start trouble so you can begin the cycle of saying ugly things then apologizing and asking for forgivness.
Don't say you don't play games when your behavior is so predictable.
If you are unhappy....do something about it....don't talk about love and Christ like behavior when you act like this.
Take a nap, take a walk, pray...but do not start attacking our friends on this blog.
You forgot which blog you were on...this isn't what we are about. You need to get a grip.
I personally expect better from you.
YES,I am angry. Now you don't have to ask.
In reading the most recent posts, one would think that a clone of P. Patterson has emergerd.
Let's get back on topic and ease up on the backbiting and other yaya.
"So send I you to labor unrewarded;
To serve unpaid, unlove, unsought, unknown,
To bear rebuke, to suffer scorn and scoffing,
So send I you, to toil for me alone,
As the Father has sent me, So send I you."
It can't get more precious than that folks.
L.A.
I can't keep up with all that's going on, a lot of deleted posts. I don't have much time, but I will say this, if I cause someone grief and pain, I'm sorry. If the Holy Spirit is convicting you, please listen.
1 Corinthians 13:1,2
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
Love in Christ, OX more next week!
I have been out of town and trying to catch up on the new thread.....
I read the letter by Sheri Klouda to the FBC-Jax thread. Here is a part that stuck out to me:
"While it is true that the lawyer had me read I Corinthians 6, I responded that "it appears to suggest that one should avoid bringing suit against another believer," however, I clarified this by explaining that this declaration assumes the wronging party will do the right thing to the one accusing him, or that other believers will compel the wrongdoer to respond appropriately. In addition, the Old Testament, which is part of our Bible, institutes and discusses at length judges, courts, and suits as stipulations approved by God and put in place to protect the individual in a believing community from harm by another. The Bible constantly addresses powerful people taking advantage of those who are less powerful Not only did I go to Dr. Patterson and ask him to treat me fairly several times, since I did nothing to deserve losing my job, and in fact, was serving in that role by the approval of the board and those in authority, but other believers went to him on my behalf to try and obtain justice and grace."
It seems to me that the Bible is being used to suit a specific perpose, not taken in its entirity and intent. For example, it's okay for SWBTS to make an oral contract, and a written contract, and break it, but it's not okay for the wronged to sue.
Pick and choose.......???? Huh?
BTW.......this thread is very confusing to just come in on!!!!
So glad you are back CSBCer!!!
You have been missed!
Thanks GMommy, long, hard work trip...37 hours over 3 days!
Hi to all my buddies....good to be back!
Gracious! This thread looks like Swiss cheese.
Did anyone catch the video of the "Praise Choreography Group" in last Sunday morning's services? I posted the link and instructions for viewing it earlier this week, but someone informed me tonight that the video has been edited. They cut out the whole baptismal service and the dance number, and now the tape starts in the middle of the "meet and greet" while Jamie Parker sings.
It's been reported that at least one high-profile Bellevue couple walked out of that service, and apparently there was criticism voiced to the staff by several people. Steve Gaines was even reported to have issued a public apology.
As ridiculous as that "show" was, it's perplexing to me why so many people seemed to think letting a confessed sexual predator freely roam the halls for six months was no big deal, but a dance routine (and a very bad one at that) gets those same people all riled up. I suppose everyone's "last straw" is different, but the irony in this case is glaring.
"Steve Gaines was even reported to have issued a public apology."
He met with the kids (and their parents) who participated in the
interpretive dance. Told them in so many words they would not be doing that again in church services - that in hindsight it was not the right venue.
This was after many calls and letters of complaint.
"it's perplexing to me why so many people seemed to think letting a confessed sexual predator freely roam the halls for six months was no big deal, but a dance routine (and a very bad one at that) gets those same people all riled up."
Something I will never understand.
"I suppose every one's "last straw" is different, but the irony in this case is glaring."
I agree Nass.
Maybe the story that SG apologized for this is a "vicious rumor".
It would make no sense that he would apologize for allowing a tacky dance routine in a worship service
when he bragged (at the seminary the week after) about turning the mic off when a BBC member stood there to speak.
Of course,the member was also the victim of the staff sexual predator who SG decided to cover up for.
That monkey business meeting was the last straw for so many....even the ones who didn't see the victim ignored.
Wouldn't it be funny ....in a sad way.... if this tasteless
dance service was finally what opened the eyes of others that SG is incapable of making the right decisions for BBC????
I was emailed last night that SG is blaming it on someone else....that he knew nothing about it.
I'm sure it was just a mistake of the mind and not the heart.
WHS,
I'm still not going to publish your comments, so you're wasting your time here, but I will make an exception and post the three questions you asked this morning. No doubt they were rhetorical questions, but in case you really don't know the answers:
1. Correct me if I am wrong but aren't Patterson and Pressler the ones who engineered the conservative takeover of the SBC?
Yes
2. Wasn't Adrian Rogers their man to preside in the takeover?
Yes, and I believe he was used by them.
3. Were there any shady practices that were resorted to then?
Most likely there were.
I have never defended the PP-PP takeover or AR's role in it. He was no doubt used, but I suppose most of the time people have to let themselves be used. The man isn't here to defend himself, so I will say no more on that subject.
As for someone finally "getting it," if you'd bothered to read this blog for the last year and a half instead of penning obscene posts about what you imagine Paul Williams did and bloviating about yourself ad nauseum, you would have seen that most of us have "gotten it" all along. So this is nothing new. If you're going to quote me, make certain you quote me accurately or don't bother. Also, DO NOT EVER interpret this as any kind of endorsement of your activities. Period.
If anyone decides to delete more than one or two comments, will you please not leave "comment deleted" trails all over the place? All you have to do is check the "Remove forever?" box.
Thank you! :-)
I'm a little off-topic, but just had to say thanks for the grin. I found this jewel through your SBC Outpost link in the posting. If you scan down, to March 14th there's a link to Shelby Sharpe's letter to Ben Cole. Sharpe is Paige Patterson's attorney, and he's telling Ben Cole that he has defamed Patterson and that his defamation "is properly actionable in a civil court." It's essentially a veiled threat/suggestion of a possible lawsuit. But here's what's so funny about it. He signs off with "In His Name". Maybe it's just me, but I laughed and laughed. Doesn't that just beat all? You've got an attorney threatening a lawsuit, and he does it "In His Name."
Christa,
What else is there to do but laugh! We have cried enough.
What reasonably intelligent person cannot see thru that?
What completely unchurched person would want any part of this fake self righteous behavior?
There is so much use of God's name inappropriately and dishonestly...it's beyond sad....so we laugh.
Christa,
Cole's letters back to Sharpe are hysterical. You really should take the time to read them.
But let's look at this from another angle. Patterson, instead of doing Matthew 18 as a great theologian of the SBC, uses an attorney to communicate with Cole! He does not even bother to try to talk to him personally first!
"If anyone decides to delete more than one or two comments, will you please not leave "comment deleted" trails all over the place? All you have to do is check the "Remove forever?" box."
Yes Ma'am. (hanging head in shame)
'Preciate it. :-)
Pastor gets into motorcycle crash during service
"A pastor brought out a dirt bike during a church service to demonstrate the concept of unity. Now he's demonstrating the concept of healing."
LOL!
Did my post of that article stop all conversation?? :)
I thought it was funny. Possibly illegal to have a gas-powered vehicle in an indoor structure with people like that, unless they got a special permit. Definitely a goofy thing to do, and anywhere from no necessary to totally inappropriate for a church service. Not so funny that he broke his wrist (except in the weird and unexpected sense).
But breaking a part of your body in an attempt to illustrate unity really kind of messes up the illustration, huh?
It was very funny. But an illustration of unity?
Hmmmm... Motorcycle. Stunt. Broken bones.
Oh, I get it! Unity... with Evel Knievel!
:)
Anyone ever read about Darwin awards?
No Concernedsbcer, what are the Darwin awards?
Back on the topic of this post -- the entire situation with Sherry Klouda should never have happened, was handled very badly, and reflects a totally wrong-headed view of both the Scripture's teachings and even the Baptist Faith & Message 2000's view of women in ministry. Although it is likely that the vast majority of Southern Baptist preachers and church members agree with the BFM2000's position against women pastors, I doubt that nearly as many would consider that prohibition to apply to female seminary professors. I think most Baptists still have enough sense to know the difference between a pastor of a church and a teacher at a school.
Simply put, Patterson abused both the Bible and the BFM2000 when trying to use them to support his strange views about women. The scary thing is that his views appear to be gaining ground in many circles, not just among Southern Baptists. It's kind of odd that those who proudly wear the label of conservative, in their attempts to respond to the challenges raised by egalitarians, would be supporting their complementarian views by espousing doctrines (about women, men, creation, and even the Trinity) that are very novel and non-traditional.
All that said, I disagree that the Klouda situation is a result of the SBC Conservative Resurgence (CR) in and of itself. The article linked to in this post under "How did we get to this point?" is quite biased, and does not reflect an accurate and balanced view of the theological, doctrinal, and power issues that led up to and encompassed the CR.
Klouda wasn't fired because those mean old conservatives took over the convention from those kinder and gentler moderates and liberals. Truth is, the problem wasn't with the CR, its principles, or even how it was accomplished. The problem is that humans do sinful things, and that power in the hands of humans is very corrupting. Jesus knows this, which is why he set the pattern and standard for greatness in God's kingdom upside-down from the ways of the world, and taught that to be greatest is not to be most powerful but to be the one who serves the most.
Ahhh, the Darwin Awards. Here's the list from 2005:
Darwin Awards 2005. Yes, it's that magical time of the year again when the Darwin Awards are bestowed, honoring the least evolved among us. Here then, are the glorious winners:
1. When his 38-caliber revolver failed to fire at his intended victim during a hold-up in Long Beach, California, would-be robber James Elliot did something that can only inspire wonder. He peered down the barrel and tried the trigger again. This time it worked.
And now, the honorable mentions:
2. The chef at a hotel in Switzerland lost a finger in a meat-cutting machine and, after a little hopping around, submitted a claim to his insurance company. The company, expecting negligence, sent out one of its men to have a look for himself. He tried the machine and lost a finger. The chef's claim was approved.
3. A man who shoveled snow for an hour to clear a space for his car during a blizzard in Chicago returned with his vehicle to find a woman had taken the space. Understandably, he shot her.
4. After stopping for drinks at an illegal bar, a Zimbabwean bus driver found that the 20 mental patients he was supposed to be transporting from Harare to Bulawayo had escaped. Not wanting to admit his incompetence, the driver went to a nearby bus stop and offered everyone waiting there a free ride. He then delivered the passengers to the mental hospital, telling the staff that the patients were very excitable and prone to bizarre fantasies. The deception wasn't discovered for 3 days.
5. An American teenager was in the hospital recovering from serious head wounds received from an oncoming train. When asked how he received the injuries, the lad told police that he was simply trying to see how close he could get his head to a moving train before he was hit.
6 A man walked into a Louisiana Circle-K, put a $20 bill on the counter, and asked for change. When the clerk opened the cash drawer, the man pulled a gun and asked for all the cash in the register which the clerk promptly provided. The man took the cash from the clerk and fled, leaving the $20 bill on the counter. The total amount of cash he got from the drawer... $15. (If someone points a gun at you and gives you money, is a crime committed?)
7. Seems an Arkansas guy wanted some beer pretty badly. He decided that he'd just throw a cinder block through a liquor store window, grab some booze, and run. So he lifted the cinder block and heaved it over his head at the window. The cinder block bounced back and hit the would-be thief on the head, knocking him unconscious. The liquor store window was made of Plexiglas. The whole event was caught on videotape.
8. As a female shopper exited a New York convenience store, a man grabbed her purse and ran. The clerk called 911 immediately, and the woman was able to give them a detailed description of the snatcher. Within minutes, the police apprehended the snatcher. They put him in the car and drove back to the store. The thief was then taken out of the car and told to stand there for a positive ID. To which he replied, "Yes, officer, that's her. That's the lady I stole the purse from."
9. The Ann Arbor News crime column reported that a man walked into a Burger King in Ypsilanti, Michigan at 5 a.m., flashed a gun, and demanded cash. The clerk turned him down because he said he couldn't open the cash register without a food order. When the man ordered onion rings, the clerk said they weren't available for breakfast. The man, frustrated, walked away.
A 5-STAR STUPIDITY AWARD WINNER!
10. When a man attempted to siphon gasoline from a motor home parked on a Seattle street, he got much more than he bargained for. Police arrived at the scene to find a very sick man curled up next to a motor home near spilled sewage. A police spokesman said that the man admitted to trying to steal gasoline and plugged his siphon hose into the motor home's sewage tank by mistake. The owner of the vehicle declined to press charges, saying that it was the best laugh he'd ever had.
"Truth is, the problem wasn't with the CR, its principles, or even how it was accomplished."
No, it wasn't the CR itself. It was the power-hungry people who led it. And how it was accomplished is a big problem in my book. Dirty politics is dirty politics regardless of which "side" employs the tactics thereof. The ends don't always justify the means.
Very good point, Junk.
Thanks for your insight.
More Darwin Award honorable mentions:
According to police in Windsor, Ontario, Daniel Kolta, 27, and Randy Taylor, 33, died in a head-on collision, thus earning a tie in the game of chicken they were playing with their snowmobiles.
In Detroit, a 41-year-old man got stuck and drowned in two feet of water after squeezing head first through an 18-inch-wide sewer grate to retrieve his car keys.
A 49-year-old San Francisco stockbroker, who "totally zoned when he ran," accidentally jogged off a 100-foot-high cliff on his daily run.
In Buston, NC, a man died on a beach when an 8-foot-deep hole he had dug into the sand caved in as he sat inside it. Beach goers said Daniel Jones, 21, dug the hole for fun, or protection from the wind, and had been sitting in a beach chair at the bottom Thursday afternoon when it collapsed, burying him beneath five feet of sand. People on the beach, on the outer banks, used their hands and shovels, trying to claw their way to Jones, a resident of Woodbridge, VA, but could not reach him. It took rescue workers using heavy equipment almost an hour to free him while about 200 people looked on. Jones was pronounced dead at a hospital.
Santiago Alvarado, 24, was killed in Lompoc, CA, as he fell face-first through the ceiling of bicycle shop he was burglarizing. Death was caused when the long flashlight he had placed in his mouth (to keep his hands free) rammed into the base of his skull as he hit the floor.
According to police in Dahlonega, GA, ROTC cadet Nick Berrena, 20, was stabbed to death in January by fellow cadet Jeffrey Hoffman, 23,who was trying to prove that a knife could not penetrate the flak vest Berrena was wearing.
Sylvester Briddell, Jr., 26, was killed in Selbyville, Delaware as he won a bet with friends who said he would not put a revolver loaded with four bullets into his mouth and pull the trigger.
In Guthrie, OK, in October, Jason Heck tried to kill a millipede with a shot from his .22 caliber rifle, but the bullet ricocheted off a rock near the hole and hit pal Antonio Martinez in the head, fracturing his skull.
In Elyria, Ohio, in October, Martyn Eskins, attempting to clean out cobwebs in his basement, declined to use a broom in favor of a propane torch and caused a fire that burned the first and second floors of his house.
Paul Stiller, 47, was hospitalized in Andover Township, NJ, and his wife Bonnie was also injured, when a quarter-stick of dynamite blew up in their car. While driving around at 2:00 am, the bored couple lit the dynamite and tried to toss it out the window to see what would happen but apparently failed to notice the window was closed.
RUNNER UP:
Tacoma, WA Kerry Bingham had been drinking with several friends when one of them said they knew a person who had bungee-jumped from the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in the middle of traffic. The conversation grew more heated and at least 10 men trooped along the walkway of the bridge at 4:30 am. Upon arrival at the midpoint of the bridge they discovered that no one had brought a bungee rope. Bingham, who had continued drinking, volunteered and pointed out that a coil of lineman's cable lay nearby. One end of the cable was secured around Bingham's leg and the other end was tied to the bridge. His fall lasted 40 feet before the cable tightened and tore his foot off at the ankle. He miraculously survived his fall into the icy river water and was rescued by two nearby fishermen. "All I can say," said Bingham, "is that God was watching out for me on that night. There's just no other explanation for it." Bingham's foot was never located.
You know I'm looking at these extreme idiots who deserve the "Darwin Awards", and I laugh, some of that stuff is just awesomely stupid!...
Then I look at myself, under the gaze of God, and I see myself being the biggest award winner ever.
Why would He ever send His Son to die for this????
I'll never understand.
oc.
But I'll be forever grateful.
And I'll wonder and be amazed forever that He did what He did for who He did.
oc.
New BBC Open Forum said...
"Truth is, the problem wasn't with the CR, its principles, or even how it was accomplished."
No, it wasn't the CR itself. It was the power-hungry people who led it.
I don't think that's correct, either. The CR can't be separated from those who led it, and the reason for the CR was not to grab power for power's sake; it was to address serious problems that needed to be corrected. And the most effective and appropriate way to do so was to use the SBC's already defined political processes. Unfortunately, the problem with gaining power when you previously didn't have it is that you then have to live with power's corrupting influence. Power tends to bring out the worst in most people.
And how it was accomplished is a big problem in my book. Dirty politics is dirty politics regardless of which "side" employs the tactics thereof. The ends don't always justify the means.
For the most part it was accomplished by simple democratic processes, with the majority of Southern Baptists supporting those who wanted to move the denomination's schools and agencies into better alignment with the beliefs of most Southern Baptists. Yes, some wrongs were done, and wrong is wrong, no matter what the motive. But the moderates/liberals, who held power for decades prior to the CR, seem to want to portray themselves as innocents and conservatives as wicked. In reality, the abuse of power by conservatives was (and is) not greater than that seen when moderates/liberals were in power. The moderates/liberals did as much to shut out and silence conservatives prior to the CR as was done to moderates/liberals by conservatives as part of the CR. I'm not excusing anyone's wrong behavior, just saying that those who lost power and now stand in criticism of the CR have their own agenda, and they aren't the innocent victims they like to portray themselves as.
I also think that the phrase "dirty politics" may be a redundancy, kinda like saying "tooth dentist". :)
I don't know what the moderates/liberals did before the CR took over..I REALLY wasn't aware of how the SBC worked then.
There is a lot of information that indicates there was manipulative planning by the PP group. At the very least they strongly assisted the democratic process.
This is my opinion, of course, based on hours and hours of reading.
However it was accomplished....the Paige Patterson group has NOT responded properly to clergy sexual abuse...to say the least!!
I don't have any doubt that much power-mongering harm was inflicted on a lot of good people by the 2 PPs. But when it comes to effectively addressing clergy sex abuse, the so-called moderates are just as blind-eyed. The Baptist General Convention of Texas is considered a moderate state convention (one of just a few) and yet it has a terrible track record on this. [My most recent blog on it is here.]
Many people have told me that I should back off on the BGCT because, after all, they're the "good guys" - meaning they're the moderates. But if they're turning a deaf ear to abuse survivors, leaving predators in pulpits, and not warning people in the pews, what difference does it make whether they label themselves "moderate" or "conservative"? Either way, more kids get hurt, stupefying silence is perpetuated, and predators keep preaching.
Perhaps leaders at the BGCT are sometimes better at using a softer tone with abuse survivors. But duplicity and harm can be accomplished just as easily with a smooth, buttery, pastoral voice as with a harsh, hateful voice.
The question is always: What are they actually doing? When you look at it from that perspective, clergy sex abuse may be the one issue on which so-called conservatives and moderates are aligned. Isn't that sad?
Christa,
You make good points. In the end, it matters no so much that someone claims to believe in the inerrancy and absolute authority of the Bible as whether they actually live like they believe it. It's easier to talk about truth propositionally than it is to live the truth practically.
I think that's why the Bible says "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers." Anybody can say that they love God and there is no way to look into their hearts, but all can see how we treat others.
So, the city of Memphis and the police director have filed a lawsuit to uncover the identities of those who are operating a blog that is apparently bashing the politics and management of the police department.
NASS, guess you should watch out! Steve Gaines and Jim Barnwell are going to be filing the next lawsuit against you, if there is a legal precedent!
Seriously, though, it seems that free speech is once again under attack, even here in America.
Story here.
It should be noted that this story has made national news. In fact, several internet privacy groups have gotten into the fray, including the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
Christa,
I am so thankful for your ministry and for your willingness to speak out for victims even when you are under constant attack. I have never been victimized in this way but it could have happened to me. My youth group had a pedophile on staff as youth minister. He was the nicest guy you could ever meet. He had a sweet wife with a horrible disease that didn't have a cure. He was always grinning and smiling. I loved him so much. I was very shy when I was in high school (blog friends will be shocked by this!) and it was because of him that I finally came out of my shell. For whatever reason, he never bothered me. I had a very close relationship with my parents and they had very watchful eyes. I had my own car so I never needed a ride home. Others were not so fortunate. Finally the girls began to speak out and as far as I can remember the church was told by the police to get rid of him or they would run him out of town. I don't suppose anyone ever thought of locking him up. I was so completely deceived that I didn't believe these stories until years later and I even wrote letters back and forth with him when I was in college. He never said anything at all even then that would lead me to believe he was that kind of person. Do not ever think you cannot be deceived!!!! I cringe when I see parents letting their young children go by themselves from the sanctuary into the main foyer down a hallway to a secluded bathroom. I have been so tempted to leave the service myself and go watch out for them. It scares me to no end. Someone was telling me that security at BBC had told them pedophiles regularly watch the kids on the ballfields. Now that many of the children have moved over to Faith they are now watching them over there. PLEASE parents - WAKE UP!!!! Your children are not safe in public bathrooms. They are not safe in public places. I don't believe in telling kids so much that you will scare them to death but you do need to talk to your kids on their age level about people who can harm them. You need to explain to them that people at church aren't always "good" and can also bring harm. They are never to accept candy or get into cars with anyone when parents aren't around. It is just common sense. My friend Brannon Howse (Worldview Weekends) has a young son who was with him at Barnes and Noble where gay porn was laying around for anyone to see. The manager made the mistake of telling Brannon that a child had been molested in the bathroom. This happened in Collierville, TN. Now Brannon is hearing from people all over the country that these kinds of things are happening to their children at bookstores. They are innocently looking at something in the children's area and they "happen" across gay porn. Brannon has mounted a huge campaign against Barnes and Noble because of what happened to his son and others. We need to stop thinking these things just happen to others and realize it is happening all around us. It is your job to protect your kids!!!!! The SBC is not going to protect them and neither will the government. All we can do is put pressure on the SBC but they have shown no desire to change things. Apparently there are not many pastors whose own children or grandchildren have been molested. If that were the case, I think you would see more of an uprising.
Preach it to us, sister!!!
Amen!
For a single mom with a male child who is too old to go in the ladies room but too young to go alone into the men's(old enough is when they have muscles and maturity)...here's what I did.
I stood at the men;s room door with my foot holding open the door and I talked to my son the entire time. I explained and he understood that I had to keep him safe.
I saw a few things I would rather not have seen and it was a tad embarrassing BUT....lots better than sending them in and hoping for the best.
This is more than sad. Our kids are not even safe with the youth minister. Not even safe within the church building. Man, and that's the only place I ever thought our kids were safe. No longer.
How much sadder can this get?
The blurring of the world and the Church. It makes me mad. Now we it seems we can no longer expect a difference between the two, and we have to protect our kids in the bathrooms of our "sanctuaries".
Sanctuary? My a**.
It's too bizarre to contemplate. It's too much for me to accept.
This is NOT what God intended.
He's gagging and puking at every instance. All Hell is breaking loose and Satan laughs while we twiddle our thumbs and wish it wasn't so.
I refer you back to this thread.
I saw it. But as my soul did at that time, and as it still does yet...
It screams against it, in shear disgust and wanting to be in denial that any man can do such to another who is made in the image of God.
God forgive us.
Just a random thought.
Listen. To you. And to those who do have their 'stuff' together. And to that Buddhist "renegade" that we all have loved. And even to someone like me, who fails time and time again and should know better by now, yet stumbles and falls and scrapes his knees time and time again,(I wish I could say that my bloody knees are because of fervent prayer) and hurts his friends, and knows he deserves nothing but wrath. All of them, all of us, me, every single one;...
have been made in the image of God.
And to me, that means that there is at least something there in each that is worth loving. And forgiving.
Just some ramblin' thoughts.
oc.
The saddest thing is on NBC. Children for sale...in Cambodia. Little baby girls...many 10 years old..some only 8.
Mothers and young boys are the pimps. They are babies. Tiny skinny babies.
I feel sick...worse than sick. We aren't human anymore.
oc said...
Just a random thought.
Listen. To you. And to those who do have their 'stuff' together. And to that Buddhist "renegade" that we all have loved. And even to someone like me, who fails time and time again and should know better by now, yet stumbles and falls and scrapes his knees time and time again,(I wish I could say that my bloody knees are because of fervent prayer) and hurts his friends, and knows he deserves nothing but wrath. All of them, all of us, me, every single one;...
have been made in the image of God.
And to me, that means that there is at least something there in each that is worth loving. And forgiving.
Just some ramblin' thoughts.
oc.
7:58 PM, July 25, 2008
Amen.
Please read if you'd like your voice to be heard.
Related story.
Honest question.
Is the sexual abuse by ministers in the SBC either directly or indirectly related to the legacy of Patterson and Pressler?
oc said...
Honest question.
Is the sexual abuse by ministers in the SBC either directly or indirectly related to the legacy of Patterson and Pressler?
9:20 PM, July 28, 2008
I'm not sure about Pressler, but there were reports a while back where Paige Patterson turned a blind eye to accusations against Darrell Gilyard.
Interesting question. Let's be clear that no one is accusing either PP or PP of any impropriety. Not sure their "legacy" has a lot to do with it though -- except their legacy of covering for these perverts. I think people are becoming more aware of the problem, and they're speaking out more often. Also, the internet has made the dissemination of this sort of information much easier. Clergy sexual abuse isn't new. We're just hearing about it a lot more.
THERE'S A NEW THREAD! TURN UP YOUR SOUND AND GET READY TO BOOGIE!
Thank you,
NBBCOF
PP and other righteous thinking controlers are scared to have an open and honest discussion about almost any issue that could take away from their power base. If women were accepted as having a gift to teach or even learn, that would be a blow to "male-power". This is so silly to me that I believe these guys must use an electric razor to shave by because they certainly shgould have trouble facing themselves in the mirror.
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