Friday, April 04, 2008

"Love is patient, love is kind... er... "



This billboard recently appeared along the south side of I-40 between Whitten Road and Sycamore View. It faces east but doesn't stand very high and is partially buried in a stand of trees behind the Century Center Business Park, so a lot of people probably haven't noticed it.

One might mistakenly conclude from reading this sign that those are the words of Steve Gaines! There is no reference to Scripture at all. No mention of God or Jesus. In fact, the first time I caught a glimpse of it from the interstate, I didn't see the reference to "Bellevue Baptist Church" because "Steve Gaines" is in much larger type.

That "quote" is the first half of I Corinthians 13:4 and the first part of verse 8.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.


This is only my opinion, but it just seems that plastering your photo on a billboard while plagiarizing the Apostle Paul tramples all over that "does not boast, is not proud" part. Maybe that's why we don't see the rest of the verse on the billboard. The irony would have been too much.

Notice it's not a regular billboard, rather it looks like a big tarp wrapped around a billboard. It appears it could be taken down and reused. Will it pop up somewhere else next month? Are there more of these around town?



Am I seeing things, or is that Thomas the Tank Engine peeking out from underneath the corner of Brother Steve's photo?

600 comments:

1 – 200 of 600   Newer›   Newest»
gmommy said...

Whoever is in charge of the publicity at BBC needs to be replaced.

People ARE NOT as stupid as SG thinks...or whoever came up with this advertisement!

WHY would this draw anyone to BBC or any church???

Does Steve think he is a rock star????

This billborad is in poorer taste than the garish ugly sign they spent THOUSANDS to repaint on GT Parkway.

What are they selling???

Lin said...

This reminds me of when Bill Clinton allowed his speech writers to switch one of the Beatitude verses to fit his need.

It is a bit unusual not to give the scripture reference, but then, if they did and people realized it left some parts out, it could be worse.

Personally, I find putting the pastors mug on a billboard tacky amd unbiblical. It is not supposed to be his church but then we know that sort of thing does not matter in this SB church

sickofthelies said...

IN reading the billboard, with the big face of SG poking out from behind the trees, it occured to me that BBC has not been any of those things to me since SG arrived:

Not patient, and certainly not kind.

imaresistor said...

I would say it is a pride issue...

When I see such as this, I often think how many needy children this money could have fed or clothed. I believe these things will have to be accounted for...

Junkster said...

I feel compelled to say something, to think of some profound or insightful or even humorous words to express how distasteful I find this billboard. So far the only word that comes to mind is just too uncouth for me to use. And that's saying something, 'cuz I'm generally quick to be uncouth by nature.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Junk" speechless? Will wonders ever cease?

oc said...

Why should any pastor make more than 50 grand?
What is the Scriptural reason he should even get twice, much less more than ten times as much as I can earn doing my job? Dude knew what he was signing up for when he surrendered to the the preaching of the Gospel...he should have expected poverty...not worldly riches.

But yet this guy is probably getting half a million?

OK. I'm backing out of this before I blow... While single Moms raise their kids on much less than 50 grand...
You have a preacher that is probably making ten times as much...
I'm gagging on it.


If I was him, I would tuck my tail and back myself into my corner...apologizing the whole time. And I would repent, and all that extra money would be spent on widows and orphans. I believe that idea came from a Book I read somewhere...

Jussayin'.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Come on Bellevue! Get on board and follow Mac Brunson's lead here in Jax! Hire the A-Group, Mac's ace marketing firm from Nashville. The A-group does all the web design and artwork for our church, and other churches, as well as work for Calvin Klein and Tommy Bahama! I'm sure the A-Group would be able to tell your church publicity department that its not not a good idea to plagiarize scripture and attribute it to Steve Gaines.

oc said...

Are all the other pastors flashing their faces on billboards around the town?

The next billboard should have his face, and these words from Steve 3:16...

I love me, I love me, I can't get enough of me.

Scion said...

After seeing this billboard, I kept racking my brain; trying to figure out what it reminds me of. And then it hit me...

This billboard bears a striking resemblance to the advertising billboards I see all over town for real estate agents.

Their big, smiling, friendly, reassuring face, right next to their company's name and the service they are providing.

So, Steve Gaines works for BBC, and is selling advice, comfort, reassurance, and love?

Hmmm. I thought all those were supposed to be free.

But I'm sure they're cheap. They only cost a few tithe dollars.

Scion said...

Also, why do churches (and not just BBC) these days put up signs with friendly, inspiring, feel-good, seeker-friendly Bible verses, quotes, witicisms, and all around sage advice and neutral philosophy?

Whatever happened to messages that contain the name of Jesus? Whatever happened to sin and redemption? Whatever happened to salvation by grace instead of works?

In an effort to attract bigger audiences, churches have sold out.

New BBC Open Forum said...

If you haven't watched this video, it's a must see. The poor, long-suffering, underpaid mega-church pastor. So weary from... uhhh... doing his job? Doesn't even get as much joy from fishing anymore. Ho hum. His family life is suffering. He needs a sabbatical. Why, the congregation needs to "step up" and pay him more so he can get away. Poor thing is so underpaid he has to wear rags -- literally.

Can you imagine Dr. Rogers, or any number of other pastors, sitting at the desk in his study, dressed like that, with his nasty shoes propped up on the desk? They said Ronald Reagan would never even remove his tie or jacket inside the Oval Office -- out of respect for the office he held. (And then along came Bill Clinton... and Monica, but I digress.) Is not the office of "pastor" deserving of a fraction of the respect befitting that of president?

Even his spinning screen saver, "World's Best Dad!" is a tribute to this guy's total self-absorption.

New BBC Open Forum said...

In Tennessee it's a state real estate commission law that the broker's name (the agency which the agent is affiliated with) and the broker's phone number must be in larger type than the agent's name unless the broker permits otherwise.

So I guess the question that comes to mind is... did SG get permission from BBC to make his name larger than theirs and to omit the church's phone number? Or permission from Paul to quote from his first letter to the Corinthians without giving credit?

oc said...

NASS, that video...

Dude thinks he's a sport's celebrity. He talks about "last season". He calls his "job" a triathalon, and says it resembles Ultimate Fighting. Wow.

No wonder he thinks he needs more money. He thinks he's in the entertainment industry.

I wonder what his billboard looks like?

gmommy said...

Nass,
WHY did you have to give that link!!!
I am so nauseated and disgusted!!!!!!

SPEAKING....not PREACHING????

so MANY things I could dissect..
WHY did this Ed Young guy get into ministry at all????Who is he???

The dignity I saw in men like Bro.R. seems to be dead.

I guess he has more value than the women who work unbelieveable hours and are constantly overwhelmed and alone just trying to provide for, educate, and keep their children healthy and safe ...and never dream of a break or vacation.

He needs to go on a real mission field and do some real work before he moans and groans and whines.
I'm sick.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Hello friends...I posted an article on Ed Young, Jr.'s video on the FBC Jax Watchdog blog (click here), commenting on his view of himself as "a franchise player" and as the "fundraiser"...viewing this video I think is very instructive for us at FBC Jax and Bellevue, because the mindset of this man as the "franchise" player and the main "fundraiser" is the same for Brunson and Gaines. Its just that Ed Young, Jr., to his credit, is not afraid to actually admit it! As hard as it is to watch this video, it is a must see and it is a rare glimpse into the mind of most mega church pastors.

IWTK said...

There are other billboards around town with the same format. I am pretty sure this is not a Bellevue thing.

BTW: anyone know anything about David Smith "leaving" Germantown? Seems the new pastor had other plans. I hope David can find another job.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Ed Young, the junior, is the son of mega-church pastor, Ed Young, the elder, of Second Baptist Church in Houston, Texas. Like George W. Bush and George H.W. Bush, they aren't really "junior" and "senior," but that's how people often refer to them. The elder Ed has been on national TV for years. His show is called Winning Walk. Check your local listings.

Here is Ed, Jr.'s blog.

His church's website.

And his website.

Second Baptist is the church where pianist Josh Stewart was on staff for the past year, and former Bellevue singer, Eddie Struble, son of deacon Roger Struble, is currently on staff there.

The junior Ed Young and Andy Stanley, son of Charles Stanley of FBC Atlanta and InTouch Ministries, have co-authored books and, I believe, had a ministry together for a while.

Andy Stanley "cast the vision for" North Point Community Church in Alpharetta, Georgia.

New BBC Open Forum said...

iwtk,

Old news.

BkWormGirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Junkster said...

Back to the billboard for a moment -- I doubt that SG is the one coming up with these designs; there is most likely a committee or individual (perhaps even an ad agency) behind them. The fact that SG gives them the okay (whether by prior approval or by not insisting they be immediately removed) does speak to the man's ego (just like the infamous display cases put up in the church for him and his wife). But the billboards and other ads speak even more to the "pastor worship" of those who either design or approve them and of those who do not object to them.

BkWormGirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Junkster said...

As I recall, the senior Ed Young was President of the SBC in the early 90s, the approved candidate of the architects and leaders of the Conservative Resurgence, including Adrian Rogers. My understanding was that BBC under Dr. Rogers and SBC Houston under Dr. Young had a lot in common (as with FBC Atlanta under Dr. Charles Stanley, also a former SBC President). It is interesting that the sons of all three are proponents of the PDL.

BJ said...

I may be the only one to come to Bro. Steve’s defense on this web site. Some may say why are you even reading it? Good question, so that he will have someone to at least stand up from time to time when slander occurs. I know the Lord is his ultimate defender and he does not me but I am fighting for him because I love him and his family as much as many of you despise him. To say that Bro. Steve would make the same comments and compare this to the comments in this video blog by Ed Young is very unfair. Other than Bro. Steve being a mega-church Pastor their are not many similar traits between the two. Pastor Gaines is not Ed Young or Rick Warren as he has been accused of so many times. What gives me the right to say these things since I am not a member at Bellevue? His proven track record where I was a lay leader under him at Gardendale
1st. Many of you are just in attack mode as you have been since before he arrived or shortly thereafter and will continue to be until he is gone. Get over it, he is not Dr. Rogers, Dr. Pollard, or Dr. Lee nether will any Pastor who follows him. It takes no size to criticize, get behind him, take the high road or take the road to another church like you say so many others have done. I know the argument; Bellevue is my church I have been there for 25-50 years. No, it is not your church and it is not Steve’s church, it is the Lord’s. I do love all of you although we may differ greatly in opinion.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Quote:

IWTK said...

"I join Derrick in signing off this blog for ever. It is obvious that this has gotten way of hand and no amount of human truth will prevail. It has been wisely said that you can not reason with unreasonable people.

....

12:53 PM, November 04, 2006


Different profile numbers, so is it just a coincidence that two bloggers would choose the same name?

BkWormGirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gmommy said...

bkwormgirl,
That's what I thought....
WHAT are they SELLING????

Nass,
what's with the post from IWTK??
I'm confused....as usual.

gmommy said...

Junk,
Is David Rogers considered PDL?????
I knew Andy Stanley was.

Lynn said...

Something tells me that this billboard isn't the doing of the Moonbat Brigade. I think there is some other group or something doing all sorts of these billboards all over town featuring prominent people in the city. I remember seeing a lot of other billboards featuring people like Mike Spradlin and Janis Fulilove.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Janis Fulilove? That's a new one on me. Sounds like a... never mind!

New BBC Open Forum said...

BJ,

"Good question, so that he will have someone to at least stand up from time to time when slander occurs."

What slander? Since everything you read here is in print, technically, you mean "libel," but what exactly about that billboard (the topic of this thread) is libelous? No one here erected that billboard! It is what it is. I guess showing a photograph of it and commenting on it is "slanderous"? Wow.

"I am fighting for him because I love him and his family as much as many of you despise him."

I can only speak for myself, but I don't despise the man. I certainly don't like a lot of the things he's done, but I don't despise him. Please stop putting words in our mouths.

"To say that Bro. Steve would make the same comments and compare this to the comments in this video blog by Ed Young is very unfair."

No one said he'd make the same comments Ed Young did. I will say that he does seem to project that attitude though. Remember "Nobody Gets In To See The Wizard; Not Nobody, Not Nohow"?

"His proven track record where I was a lay leader under him at Gardendale."

Uh huh. I've heard about his track record there -- from people who were there. They said he ruled with an iron fist and no one had a voice. Deacons weren't allowed to discuss anything in their meetings. They were told what was going to be done and that they were 100% in agreement. If they rocked the boat, they were removed as deacons. The vote results for deacons were never known. They just ordained whomever they wanted to.

Staff members feared for their jobs. Intimidation was (and is) SG's m.o. They ordained (and still do) every male who is hired for a staff position. (Think David Coombs, Ryan Wingo, et al. Ryan Wingo, by the way, is the eldest Gaines daughter's fiancé and was brought here, along with a couple other current staff members, from Gardendale. No nepotism there.)

The staff was said to have breathed a collective sigh of relief when Steve Gaines left. One person told about the first staff meeting they had with the new pastor, and the pastor asked what they thought about something. One staff member remarked, "You mean we're allowed to have an opinion?"

You saw a few people in the infamous "Did I tick you off?" video who were crying. It may have been tears of joy for all we know, but what you didn't see were all the people who said they were applauding on the inside.

"Get over it, he is not Dr. Rogers, Dr. Pollard, or Dr. Lee nether will any Pastor who follows him."

Of course he's not. I never expected him to be. Dr. Pollard wasn't Dr. Lee (and he had a bumpy ride at first, primarily from what I understand, due to his own aloofness, but eventually saw the error of his ways and changed), and Dr. Rogers was neither Dr. Pollard nor Dr. Lee. I have nothing to "get over." Steve Gaines has had a bumpy ride through the fault of no one but himself. The question is, will he ever see the error of his ways and change? For a long time I held out hope, but that hope has long since faded.

"No, it is not your church and it is not Steve's church, it is the Lord's."

I agree. Can you call Brother Steve and tell him that? I don't think he's figured that out yet.

Junkster said...

I'd wager that a lot more people in Memphis have heard of Janis Fullilove than Mike Spradlin.

Junkster said...

A random comment left over from the previous thread ...

ima and cakes, its from wearing those high heel so often.

(Not that there's anything wrong with that.)


:)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Oooh... shows you how much we keep up with Memphis politics in Minnesota.

New BBC Open Forum said...

On the other hand, Mike Spradlin's a hero in these parts.

Lynn said...

New BBC Open Forum said...

Janis Fulilove? That's a new one on me. Sounds like a... never mind!

1:16 PM, April 05, 2008


Yeah. I saw it for a while there on I-40 as your coming into town right there near the exit that takes you to Wal-Mart.

And you can say Fullilove is the Ted Kennedy of the city council

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lynn,

'Nuff said.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Junk,"

'Nuff said, too!

Junkster said...

gmommy,
Last time I looked at David Rogers blog he had PDL listed as one of his favorite books. But don't take that as a criticism coming from me; I just thought it was interesting (though probably not surprising) that all three of those sons of pastors of megas share similar views on that topic.

"Sons of Pastors of Megas" sounds like a great name for a band.

Lynn said...

I was looking at the bulletin for BBC and I see Donna Gaines has a book coming out titled "Theres Gotta Be More"....She's doing a book signing Thursday.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lynn,

It's already out. There's a big display of them in the BBC bookstore. "There's gotta be more... " what? Money? Power?

gmommy said...

I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO weary from the "Rock star/Sports star" mentality people have about Baptist ministers.

I think I will listen to a Paul Washer sermon while I do my project...no "speaking" there...
just preaching and teaching.

What a new concept today!

Lynn said...

I've been doing some thinking.....I see Gaines being a greedy jerk, and then I see a friend of mine who is barely able to survive raising 2 kids by her self after she got divorced and I'm wondering, what the heck do some of these pastors think they're doing? All they care about is themselves. They don't care about helping those less fortunate. If theres nothing in it for them, they don't care. Makes me want to puke if you ask me.

Junkster said...

There's Gotta Be More: Enjoying the Spirit-Filled Life by Donna Gaines

Junkster said...

Lynn said...
Makes me want to puke if you ask me.


That's the word I was referring to last night when I said the only response that came to mind was uncouth.

concernedSBCer said...

Lynn: Bingo.

But I ask....is it just the pastors that act like that? Or do the pastors set the tone for the rest of the church?

imaresistor said...

Junk said, "ima and cakes, its from wearing those high heel so often."

Comment-You may be right about that Junk! I don't wear them anymore though let me tell you...not the high ones.

However, Cakes will have to answer for himself......
:)

imaresistor said...

Junk...I saw that on his website while he was still on the mission field. I was stunned at the time. One would think that a Christian, especially one of the cloth, would see immediately the heresy in that book. I'll never understand it.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Bible study leader Donna Gaines writes, 'I want to tell you ladies, that is a lie straight out of the pit of hell,' in her first book about what constitutes a truly abundant life, There's Gotta Be More!"

So... this book, about experiencing the "spirit-filled life," is only for the ladies? I guess the men are already full. Or could it be that if she didn't specifically address it to "the ladies," it might be construed by some that she was {gasp!} teaching men? When will this silliness end? It's only in the past year I've heard of any prohibition against women "teaching" men in the church. Next thing you know they'll be saying slavery is okay because it's "Biblical." Don't look now, but we're going backwards.

And it's the first? Does that mean there will be more to come? Watch out, Beth Moore!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Suggested title for the second book:

There's Gonna Be More

Cakes said...

I believe in sensible shoes.

gmommy said...

I can't find now which link I got this from...and it may be old news now
BUT I find it nice that it is a woman who had the courage to stand up for what she believes and take the heat for it.
My disclaimer is that I don't know anything else about this woman but would like SBC ministers and leaders to see that there is a cost that goes with taking a stand for what is right and Biblical.

Surely protecting the innocent,vulnerable, and wounded would be worth the cost to these ministers who claim to follow Jesus.

....In an age of craven cowardice, effeminized men, dirty politics and spineless politicians, Oklahoma Representative Sally Kerns has led Christianity in a lesson of what it is to be a faithful Christian soldier. When in a recent speech she decried the relentless assaults of homosexual activists on the rights of families and children in that state to not be indoctrinated in perverse sexuality, she was misquoted, derided, her YouTube video selectively edited, and nationally ridiculed. She received 30,000 attack emails, many which threatened her and called her obscene names. This woman of Christian integrity has not backed down and has stood her ground, for Jesus sake. Read her speech yesterday at a support rally where an estimated 2000 people turned out in support of her, including 50 Christian pastors. Here is a godly example of speaking truth in love. Here is an example of true Christian courage and boldness through Christ so often lacking today. Sally, I salute you, sister.

Rep. Sally Kern Speech - Rotunda of Oklahoma State House - April 2, 2008

Junkster said...

NASS,
I noticed that about DG's book being addressed to "ladies", too. Wouldn't surprise me if she (and some other wives of pastors of megas) would like to have a ministry rivaling Beth Moore's. And in SB life these days, the safest road for a woman to take is to direct her ministry / teaching at other women. Paige "The Pat" Patterson would be pleased, I'm sure.

But "Wives of Pastors of Megas" does not sound like a great name for a band.

Junkster said...

Is it just me, or does the phrased "lie straight out of the pit of hell" sound hackneyed to others, also?

Not sure if it is better or worse than a "lie straight out of the state of New Jersey."

New BBC Open Forum said...

She's heard her husband say that so many times, it's stuck. It has lost much of its intended effect.

Junkster said...

Cakes,
It's fine for you to proclaim your beliefs concerning footwear, and to live accordingly, just try to to be too dogmatic.

Lynn said...

concernedSBCer said...

Lynn: Bingo.

But I ask....is it just the pastors that act like that? Or do the pastors set the tone for the rest of the church?

3:29 PM, April 05, 2008

I think in this, the pastor is the head of the snake. What the pastor does, the people of the church will behave that way too. Look at how we were treated. Gaines criticizes us for telling the truth, the people roast us like a turkey on thanksgiving.

BTW, HOW ABOUT THEM TIGERS!?!?!?!?

Cakes said...

Well Junk, just tell me what is too much and I'll shoot for it.

imaresistor said...

On Ed Young, Jr....Several months ago on a Sunday morning, I turned on the tv while getting ready for church and ss. I had seen Ed Young before just briefly while flipping through channels. On this Sunday, I was pouring myself a cup of coffee when all of a sudden I was totally transfixed to the screen simply because I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Mind you now, with all my research into the PDC, the CGM, the emergent, etc...one would think nothing would surprise me. But I was......there before my eyes was Ed Young, Jr. swinging from a rope to and fro over his congregants dressed like Tarzan. I am still amazed at the audacity of these men who call themselves 'called of God'. All I have to go on is their fruits...and I will let you complete this sentence.

When my children were growing up, I would tell them to imagine that Jesus was walking right beside them 'in the flesh' at all times...and to behave accordingly. This might be good for the clergy to practice.

WishIhadknown said...

I wondered where that billboard went. I first saw it a couple of months ago in front of Bellevue but it soon disappeared. I thought someone at the church had some decency left. The obvious purpose of the billboard is to lay a guilt trip on SG's detractors. Can we add "Love is not self seeking." to the billboard?
Thinking back, we all supported SG for almost a year. Granted, when SG let Jim Whitmire go, I mean retire, it seemed a bit cold blooded. Remember, "Thank you Jim. Don't worry Jamie Parker will be here next week." I could feel the love with that one. (For those of you who can't tell that was sarcasm.) Then, on September 24, 2006, I witnessed one of the saddest events of my life. I witnesses a preacher filled with self not the holy spirit, intent on humilating those who dared to question his actions. A preacher by his own admission was building walls. A true pastor would tear walls down. A true pastor would never drive people out.
SG was hired to do a job, not to be our king. We did not place a crown on his head as some try to infer. When a man doesn't do the job he was hired for, then that man should be terminated. I have had the unfortunate duty to terminate people who did not perform their job and while I had love for them; I still had to execute my duty. SG has proven time after time, he only has love for himself. For you who come to SG's defense I can only say, there is none so blind as those who will not see.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Can we add "Love is not self seeking." to the billboard?"

I don't think there's room.

New BBC Open Forum said...

ima,

You have got to be kidding!

sickofthelies said...

Just a note of coincidence:

The elder Ed Young grew up next door to my grandmother in Laurel, MS. My grandmother and his mother were good friends.

It's a small world isn't it?

sickofthelies said...

ima,

I once watched Ed Young jr. slice a cantolope at the pulpit, as he was explaining tithing.

gmommy said...

The Tarzan routine goes WAY beyond uncouth....don't you think,Junk?

It's like dignity and humility died.

sickofthelies said...

Could you imagine Dr. Rogers EVER swinging from a vine in church playing the role of Tarzan?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Article

You can see the cantaloupe and rope swing here. He wasn't dressed like Tarzan here though.

House Tour

gmommy said...

again...I CANNOT watch these videos to the end.
The seminaries are teaching very strange things.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Could you imagine Dr. Rogers EVER swinging from a vine in church playing the role of Tarzan?"

Well, I really can't imagine SG doing that either!

BkWormGirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
imaresistor said...

nbbcof...I am telling ya, false prophets, false prophets, and more false prophets. And yes...I did see the tarzan dress, not as bad as the Tarzan we saw growing up...but 'uncooth' just the same. And then there was the Sunday he sat on the bed with his wife during his sermon. What was that supposed to mean?

Any of you up on the Moses Code? The rapture must be near...

imaresistor said...

bwg...now it is my turn - "You must be kidding!" I suppose you like Joel Osteen too?

Good night...I think I am having a nightmare!

BkWormGirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

I admit I do kind of like Joel Osteen, but strictly as a motivational speaker. Joel Osteen is not a preacher.

BkWormGirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

bkwormgirl,

My "you must be kidding" was simply in response to "ima" describing seeing Ed Young dressed like Tarzan swinging on a rope over his congregation and was not directed at anything you wrote.

I can't compare Osteen and Young at this point. Honestly, I've never watched Young other than those YouTube spots and parts of a couple of sermons on his website.

BkWormGirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

That's okay. You said "NASS" and that's moi! Hence, the confusion.

'Night, all.

BkWormGirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

Ohhh... now I get it! I need sleep.

Lin said...

Ed Young, Jr, does not preach the full Gospel so I am not sure how anyone could be a growing Christian there. His church is about felt needs: good sex, great marriage, out of debt, happy smiling kids, etc.

If he actually preached a real sermon about the Wrath to come and the Wrath Jesus took on the cross for us, then the place would empty.

It is really the Ed Young Show. He has a communications dept churning out themes and promotions that would rival some fortune 500's. The come to hear Ed Young. To see Ed Young because he is cool and has cool hair and talks about things that are important to them.

People love to hear his sermons..they tickle the ears nicely and are just another form of felt needs delievered up like the others.

But it has NOTHING to do with denying self, taking up a cross and following the REAL Jesus which is NEVER easy and is always on a narrow road.

Lin said...

"To my knowledge (and of course I don't know everything he has done so I could be unpleasantly surprised) he has not denied the way of salvation. "

He has never actually preached the FULL Gospel message. It would empty his church. It would empty BBC. It would empty most mega's these days


"He has not lived outside of scripture."

What does this mean? I am not sure how this could be true according to Jamess' teaching on teachers/pastors.


"His methodology is a bit out there. And to some that in and of itself makes him a heretic."

They are not methods...they are gimmicks. And Jesus did not take the wrath that we deserve on the cross so that we could have good sex in marriage.

If we think such things are important perhaps read Sabina and Richard Wurmbrand for a reality check!

BkWormGirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
imaresistor said...

bookwormgirl said..."But I do get something from his show..."

This is my point exactly. He has a show...

Maybe I am from a different generation, but when we talk about shows, what comes to my mind is Jay Leno, Brittany Spears, etc.......the worldly. Ed Young, Jr. is just that...wordly. Willow Creek has shows, as does Saddleback. Our precious Lord is not of this world.

And as for Joel Osteen, there is little difference in him and the bartender at your local bar/pub. I would imagine however the local bartender doesn't live as lavish a lifestyle as does Joel Osteen. Amd I wouldn't think he does it in the name of Jesus Christ.

Lin said...

Sorry bwg, I have had first hand experience with this one. It is all about HIM and his hair. He is a motivational speaker with Christian makeup. It is a cult of personality. And the true full die to self Gospel is NOT preached there. His belief statement may read correctly as does Saddlebacks and Willow Creeks but they don't preach it or live it.

They preach felt needs.

Lin said...

http://www.creativepastors.com/

He has TD Jakes in to speak at his conferences? Jakes is a 'Oneness Pentecostal" Has some very weird teaching on the Trinity. Many think he denies the doctrine of the Trinity and he refuses to answer direct questions about it.

Check out Ed's mug on his site...can you say 'Hollywood"? When I was there, I was blown away at the lengths he goes to get his hair to look like it is not 'fixed'. It is.

http://www.edyoung.com/

Lin said...

Oh, one more thing...Ed is getting stinking rich off his 'ministries'

New BBC Open Forum said...

That hair is intentional? Wow. Why? It doesn't look like it's ever seen a comb. He's obviously getting bald in the front.

News flash, guys! Combing your hair forward (the contemporary version of the comb-over) does NOT disguise the fact that your hair is getting thin. Quite the contrary, it just draws attention to it!

I remember a few years ago when Charles Stanley's part kept moving down every few weeks until it was eventually right above his left ear. I think he must have finally bought (or transplanted) some hair to supplement what he had left because all of a sudden one week his part had returned to an anatomically "normal" position.

Lynn said...

New BBC Open Forum said...

That hair is intentional? Wow. Why? It doesn't look like it's ever seen a comb. He's obviously getting bald in the front.

News flash, guys! Combing your hair forward (the contemporary version of the comb-over) does NOT disguise the fact that your hair is getting thin. Quite the contrary, it just draws attention to it!

I remember a few years ago when Charles Stanley's part kept moving down every few weeks until it was eventually right above his left ear. I think he must have finally bought (or transplanted) some hair to supplement what he had left because all of a sudden one week his part had returned to an anatomically "normal" position.

4:26 PM, April 06, 2008


The wacky combover seems to work for The Donald.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Not really.

gmommy said...

Bald can be beautiful!!
trying to act like you have hair when you don't just looks silly.

imaresistor said...

nbbcof...check out Rob Bell of Velvet Elvis fame...Mars Hill, I believe...emergent/New Age guru. I really think he was the first to have the 'look'. Possibly he is the one being copied.

Seems to me they either have the Rob Bell 'do' or they have the slick head and the Rick Warren beard.

Lynn said...

gmommy said...

Bald can be beautiful!!
trying to act like you have hair when you don't just looks silly.

8:07 PM, April 06, 2008

And Bald heads with mullets in the back ala Hulk Hogan don't look good either.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hey, everyone. On a very serious note, David Brown's 3-year-old granddaughter, Torrie, was severely injured today in a fall from a second-story window. (Not sure how it happened.) She's undergoing brain surgery at Le Bonheur, and her prognosis is uncertain. Please be in prayer for Torrie and the Brown family.

BkWormGirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

Of course.

sickofthelies said...

David,

If you are checking this blog, please know that my family is in prayer for your sweet little Torrie.

imaresistor said...

nbbcof...Torrie and family will have many prayers offered up. Please do keep us informed...

How very sorry I am to hear about this...

emptyseat said...

Narcisist

Lin said...

Wow, very sorry to hear about Torrie. this happened to a child at my church this weekend, too. Fell out of a tree and had a serious head injury.

May God bless and comfort your family, David.

Been Redeemed said...

RE: Joel Osteen

I remember when he took over for his father, who died suddenly. Joel was sort of a "shoe-in" and was promoted more by his mother than anyone else. He is a humble and fairly shy fellow who is doing what he thinks is "the right thing". Although there is no real comparison, his situation is sort of like BBC was under the latter years of Dr R as there are those in power who are pulling the strings and promoting their own agendas. Joel has always been misguided simply based on his theological beliefs, but in his heart and his mind thinks he is doing the "right thing". The very best thing we can do is to pray for the Lord to show him the error of his ways and words according to the Scriptures and he could/would have a huge audience already established that would listen to him as he shared the One True Gospel. One thing I have noticed in his interviews and writings is that he is tender-hearted and humble, which is a stark contrast to Rick Warren and Steve Gaines. I am not saying to give the guy a break on his critisim, but to remember to pray for him as we go, he apparently has not yet hardened his heart as the others have.

New BBC Open Forum said...

redeemed,

That's my impression, too. Not too sure about that wife of his though. Remember her little hissy fit that got the whole family kicked off a plane a couple years ago? From all accounts, Joel just sat there, smiling, while she ripped into a flight attendant and stormed the cockpit.

Lin said...

been redeemed, I have long thought
Victoria was the brains/braun behind the operation

Lynn said...

New BBC Open Forum said...

redeemed,

That's my impression, too. Not too sure about that wife of his though. Remember her little hissy fit that got the whole family kicked off a plane a couple years ago? From all accounts, Joel just sat there, smiling, while she ripped into a flight attendant and stormed the cockpit.

9:18 AM, April 07, 2008

I get the same vibe from her I get when I see Hillary Clinton.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Tiger victory foretold?

"For, lo, they are gone because of destruction: Egypt shall gather them up, Memphis shall bury them.... "

Hosea 9:6 KJV

Lynn said...

New BBC Open Forum said...

Tiger victory foretold?

"For, lo, they are gone because of destruction: Egypt shall gather them up, Memphis shall bury them.... "

Hosea 9:6 KJV

6:33 PM, April 07, 2008


Well, another way to look at it is...Tigers are cats....and what happens when they see a bird in the yard? :D

One question for Jayhawk Fan...Whatcha gonna do....just what are you gonna do...when Tiger Mania runs wild on you!?!?!? (Hides after doing a Hulk Hogan impersonation)

New BBC Open Forum said...

I wouldn't count my jaybirds yet.

Junkster said...

A pastor says he "erred on the side of grace" ... sound familiar?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hark! What's that giant choking sound?

Junkster said...

There is no joy in Mudville --

concernedSBCer said...

No joy at all.

However, we had a great year...winningest NCAA record EVER.....and it's been amazing and fun. There's always next year.

And truthfully....win or lose, they are still our Tigers and I love them.

:-)

Lynn said...

concernedSBCer said...

No joy at all.

However, we had a great year...winningest NCAA record EVER.....and it's been amazing and fun. There's always next year.

And truthfully....win or lose, they are still our Tigers and I love them.

:-)

12:03 AM, April 08, 2008

Having the most wins ever means nothing unless it has some hardware with it, which we dont. FIRE CALIPARI

Lynn said...

Actually, he may do us like he did UMass. Take them to the Final Four...then split for the NBA. Word is, he may be considered for the NY Knicks trainwreck.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Update from David Brown:

Torie got out of surgery around 9:00 last night. She had a team of 7 doctors working on her. They had to rebuild the left eye socket and move it back into position. They used a mold and glue to put the bones back in the proper place. The doctor said her socket was crushed in what seemed like a 100 pieces. He said it was like a jigsaw puzzle. The mold and glue will dissolve away after a period of time.

She suffered an open wound to the brain and there is a membrane that protects the brain from the skull. It was torn in two places. They repaired that. Right now their biggest concern is the risk of infection from the brain being exposed. They will have to wait a few days to tell about her eye.

The doctors at Le Bonheur are the greatest. I stand amazed at their patience and ability. They do it so calmly. We are truly blessed to live in Memphis and have this hospital here.

Thank all of you for the many prayers; trust me when I tell you we felt them. I did see Torie so briefly and she looked great. Please don’t forget to thank Him today. I have all last night.


David Brown

oc said...

Suddenly...my problems, which seemed so great... are so very small...

oc said...

Shame on me that I take myself so seriously...that I think me and mine are the center of the universe...that I feel my pain more intensely than my brother's and sister's pain... that I pray more for me, than for anyone else.

allofgrace said...

Having the most wins ever means nothing unless it has some hardware with it, which we dont. FIRE CALIPARI

Firing Calipari won't win a championship. Calipari has brought what was missing in the Finch years....discipline. Those boys have nothing to be ashamed of...they played a great game. This was one of the better matchups in NCAA tournament history, and they lost to a great team in Kansas. Hindsight is always 20/20....woulda, shoulda, coulda....but they played their game and played their hearts out and just came up short. It's that simple....instead of criticizing the coach or the players, try just tipping your hat to a great Kansas team who held on and never gave up.

32yrs@bbc said...

Regarding the latest billboard: Makes one surmise that it is all about him - not Him.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Update on Torie Brown:

She's awake and sitting up in bed! She's still got some challenges ahead, but they're calling her the "miracle baby." David would like to thank everyone for their prayers during this most difficult time.

concernedSBCer said...

David: I've been praying and I am so thankful to hear this update.

sickofthelies said...

Can someone answer this question for me...

A friend and I were discussing over dinner why Baptist outlaw dancing...

Does anyone know?

Junkster? you seem to know a lot of stuff....what do you think?

gmommy said...

did anyone see American Idol?? Who got voted off?

tn_lizzie2000 said...

SOTL wrote: A friend and I were discussing over dinner why Baptist outlaw dancing...
Does anyone know?


Lizzie writes: No, but turn on your speakers!
===8~D

ezekiel said...

Why Baptists don't dance"

Lynn said...

Thats funny.

Heres a mental image I just had....Bill Murray as a priest chasing after a dancing gopher on a church golf course (Yes, I'm referencing Caddyshack)

gmommy said...

ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I guess Baptists don't watch American Idol either ...no one told me who got voted off!!!!

My daughter once wrote a letter to Bro R and asked him why...
I vaguely remember the response being ...vague.

gmommy said...

Ok...as usual...I'm SO confused.
Just turned the TV on and I saw who was voted off...thought I missed it last night.

Lynn said...

gmommy said...

Ok...as usual...I'm SO confused.
Just turned the TV on and I saw who was voted off...thought I missed it last night.

8:01 PM, April 10, 2008

Last night was a charity special. And I only watch American Idol for the bad singing.

Now...if you want to talk about Fox's "Hell's Kitchen" with Gordon Ramsey, I'm da man on that one lol.

sickofthelies said...

well, unless somebody tells me why I am not supposed to dance, i am gonna dance!!!!

Junkster, you are strangely quiet.

Lynn said...

sickofthelies said...

well, unless somebody tells me why I am not supposed to dance, i am gonna dance!!!!

Junkster, you are strangely quiet.

9:34 PM, April 10, 2008

I could bring Disco Duck to the next bowling party :D

gmommy said...

SOTL,
I don't know if Baptist even teach that anymore. They dance at the church performances now...so I think it's the common sense stuff...like be careful where and how you dance and who you dance with.....:)
Dance, girlfriend!

BkWormGirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

That would be the 2-10-08 PM sermon.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I could bring Disco Duck to the next bowling party"

Oh, no. Don't think so. I've seen your buddy, Disco. Not a particularly pretty sight!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Disco Duck needs to stick with bowling.

padroc said...

Dancing.... Why not?

Because social dancing outside of marriage is courtship in and of the flesh. Every time I danced every move was enjoyably purposeful. And for the record, the noble desire of my heart from childhood was to dance. Ya know like tap, ballroom, and ballet. Social dancing is like marketing. Some might see it as sorta like advertising. Some would say non contact s##.

In my marriage (at home in private) dancing was total reckless fun. We were not about to publicize that intimacy with our friends.... although I was tempted to show off a few times and then stopped. In marriage there are all manner of liberties we have in Christ that are not bless-able in any other context or in public. I think dancing is one of those.

Maybe dancing in public would be ok for me if I were blind. No, everyone would have to be blind. No, that's probably worse because then everyone would have to stay in contact so they wouldn't fall down and hurt themselves. Haha ya’ll.

Don’t get me wrong…. I love to dance but tell me one teenager you would recommend slow dancing to. And is a little bit ok? How close to the edge of heart throbbing temptation should we set as an example for our children? And a tiny bit of booze wouldn’t hurt either. Right?

Ok…. That’s all from me. I am convinced of my stance. In the mean time you all will just have to take my word about my dancing.

Padroc

Junkster said...

sickofthelies said...
well, unless somebody tells me why I am not supposed to dance, i am gonna dance!!!!

Junkster, you are strangely quiet.


Go ahead, dance, dance, dance.

At least you didn't call me quietly strange.

New BBC Open Forum said...

No, I was thinking more along the lines of quite strange. :-)

oc said...

"No, I was thinking more along the lines of quite strange. :-)"


Amen! Can I get a witness???

:)

Love you bro.
oc.

Junkster said...

SOTL,
To answer your question, here is a pretty detailed explanation of why some Baptists and others have been against dancing. I will leave it to you to judge for yourself whether or not the arguments are convincing or persuasive.

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
No, I was thinking more along the lines of quite strange. :-)


I would like to respond to this with the words of the esteemed actress Molly Shannon, playing the role of the quirky, socially inept, and sometimes irascible Mary Katherine Gallagher, in the 1999 motion picture "Superstar":

"Are you aware that I am rubber, and you are glue, and whatever you say to me bounces off, of me, and sticks, to you? So put that in your, back pocket."

oc said...

And as far as dancing goes...
I have something over disco duck...
My waddle is cuter on the bowling alley...Right, NASS?

Wait... on second thought...let's not discuss. My waddle is too much like dancing. Not Baptistic.

:)

New BBC Open Forum said...

There was dancing in that movie!

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Wait... on second thought...let's not discuss."

Amen.

gmommy said...

That's how junk always plays it on the non essentials....he gives the facts and wants you to think it thru.

I DO think Padroc's point of view is valid...and refreshing.

There are also times when dancing..the right type,setting, and partner... is just plain fun...not s*&*&*.

I'm not for forbidding ALL dancing at ALL times.

Certain dancing for privacy and intimacy ...certain dancing for silly fun in public. JMO

oc said...

NASS,
Hey, everyone throws a gutterball once in a while. Not everyone has a cute approach to the line like yours!

:)

oc said...

Oh come on ya'll. Let's go ahead and just break out of our Baptistic ways...


Let's go on ahead... would we?Could we?
Should we...?


LET'S BOOGIE!!!!


Let's check Scripture, just maybe it's ok to enjoy life.

Jussayin'.
oc.

ezekiel said...

1 Cor 10:29 I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience? 30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? 31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.

If....Only if...He had given me the talent to dance and dance well, I would. To glorify Him.

But He didn't. My dancing wouldn't glorify Him in any way. Two left feet and both of them size 12.

The preacher said it best just this morning. Paul was responding to folks in the Corinthian church that were teaching that we are free from the law and that we can live as we want.

The true test for what we can and can't do is to ask whether or not the action or attitude glorifies or honors God.

I don't know about you but I can look at some dancing and see all sorts of evil, yet look at other dancing and think to myself, "look at that beauty, grace and the obvious gift that his/her creator bestowed on them".

If we are free from the law of Moses (debatable in my opinion), how much more so from the law of man?

Pickup that glass of wine and grab that girl, guys! Just remember Solomon's mistake. More than one of each leads to ruin......

New BBC Open Forum said...

Bellevue isn't going PD. Uh uh. Not No Way Not Nohow!

concernedSBCer said...

Yikes, NASS.....that sure fits BBC to a tea.

oc said...

Disclaimer: What I'm about to say is not about this blog or the blog friends who post here. It is what I experience nearly everywhere else though...and I'm not sure what I'm going to share next is going to make any sense to anybody.
And maybe it's not your experience. But He put it on my heart...Yeah, always be aware when someone says that...But here it goes...

I'm just sick of sour-puss Christians that make following Jesus into a painful chore. Let's not smile, let's not have fun. Don't do this, don't do that. And somehow being in pain constantly makes one more "holy". I guess then that hemmoroids would be considered a blessing from Heaven...I guess THAT should be automatic sanctification...and child birth for sure, from what I hear...But I will tell you what...I'm not going to be praying that either infliction visit me.

So let us only show pain. That will certainly let others know how serious we are about our faith. Maybe we get extra points for looking like we are in pain, screwing our faces all up while preaching the Gospel.

Joy? Forget it.
Guess that's just reserved for "sinners".

Even though, gee, here I am, I'm looking at this love letter from God, and He says different...

Cakes said...

"Pickup that glass of wine and grab that girl, guys! Just remember Solomon's mistake. More than one of each leads to ruin......"

I only ever go out with one girl at a time; and more like a half-glass, since I have a low tolerance for alcohol.

Hope everyone is well and planning something fun for the weekend.

oc said...

We really need to be very careful to differentiate between what we've been taught and what He has said. Too often, the two don't match up.

Don't ever put the "what I have been taught" on anyone else. That's Pharisaical. Putting additional burden on the back of one who seeks to travel the road of this life with the Lord (ie: your view of eschatology, etc.) may be a distraction to what that disciple needs to address in his life right now according to the Lord. And really, who cares if you have your eschatology all worked out, the Lord didn't make it definite enough in the Scriptures to conclude if you are right or wrong. (PS. My degree is in Bible. I still don't have my eschatology worked out. Shame, huh?)
So let your fellow disciple work out his faith with the Master, with you giving him help when asked, but not trying to be his Master, and without trying to form his views. Our efforts should be toward the growth of ourselves and our fellow siblings in Christ, and I should not demand that everyone should look like me. In fact, I reckon we both should resemble Him.

Let the Holy Spirit teach. Yep, you can assist, when asked, but you need to remind yourself that you are not the Master. You are but an assistant to Him. If you come across as any more than that, you have over-stepped your bounds, and have made yourself god. Be very careful. And some of your heart felt convictions may not be as Scriptural as you think. Keep testing and retesting your heart.

Just random thoughts which have come to me this week, living as we do in this alien world.

Lindon said...

"A friend and I were discussing over dinner why Baptist outlaw dancing..."

It was outlawed? I don't think my mom got the memo. She made me take tap and ballet.

Ez, that video was hilarious...so now we know where the law on dancing came from: Calvin. Why am I not surprised? :o)

Lindon said...

"I only ever go out with one girl at a time; and more like a half-glass, since I have a low tolerance for alcohol."

And you wear sensible shoes. :o)

Good man!!

(So glad to hear from you cakes!)

Lindon said...

"I don't know about you but I can look at some dancing and see all sorts of evil, yet look at other dancing and think to myself, "look at that beauty, grace and the obvious gift that his/her creator bestowed on them"."

I can remember when my older brother had to learn the minuet for a play he was in when he was a teen. He paid me 50 cents per session to be his partner so he could practice but threatened my life if I told anyone he danced with me.

It is simply the most graceful and beautiful dance there is.

Wonder if they danced the Hora at the Jewish wedding in Cana? :o)

Lynn said...

BTW....Dancing 20 years ago is a lot different than what is considered dancing today in most cases. Go to a nightclub today, you'll pretty much see sex with clothes on.

I think I will stick with the Superbowl Shuffle.

watchman said...

God is Holy and Just and His Counsel is Wisdom, as opoosed to mens own wisdom.

Proverbs 12 : 15

The way of a "fool" is ......"right in his own eyes"....but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is "wise".

sickofthelies said...

So junkster,

I read that link...but I still dont' understand..are ballet and tap considered EVIL, too?

What about the dancing that has been done in the SCT all those years?

I totally agree that the dancing done by teenagers is bad...really bad...

Not trying to argue..i'm genuinely interested...

I'm not really gonna dance, i was really kidding about that.

oc said...

SOTL,
oh, go ahead and dance!
You know you were wanting to!
We won't tell on ya...

:)

Lin said...

Junk,

Is there no 'Davidic' dancing in the NC? :o)

oc said...

I think it's ok to dance...
as long as you don't look like you are enjoying it.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I bet Ida Mae Russell Sills enjoyed dancing.

oc said...

NASS, yeah, there it is. The dance of life.

oc said...

My son in law is heading for Iraq for the second time. He is going back again on Wednesday. He will be gone 12-15 months. I ask your prayers for him and my daughter.

concernedSBCer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
concernedSBCer said...

(Whoa, I left out a comma and it TOTALLY changed the meaning of that sentence. I shall try again!)

Changing the subject......
Today in SS the lesson/discussion was on Abraham and Isaac and God telling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Aside from the obvious correlations between that situation and Jesus' crucifixion, I had some questions/thoughts.

Have you ever thought about how Abraham might have possibly been the first deadbeat Dad? He has Ishmael with the maid then sends them away. During the passage in Gen. 22, he speaks of Isaac as his only son, and so does God. I know God made a great nation from Ishmael's descendants as well, but it got me to thinking......

Abraham went into Egypt and denied that Sarai was his wife, then he lost patience and slept with Sarai's handmaiden and fathered Ishmael.......yet God made him the Father of a promised, blessed nation.

Grace.

I guess, when you think about Abraham and David, you have to think that those big mistakes can't derail God's plan.

gmommy said...

CSBCer,
Sure wish I would have known that was the "moral of the story" years ago...I was taught just the opposite...and took way too many years to figure out I had been taught wrong.

Lin said...

concernedsbc'er

What does it mean when a pagan king has more integrity than a 'chosen' Patriarch?

Genesis 20

ezekiel said...

Gen 16: And Sarai said to Abram, Behold now, the Lord has prevented me from bearing children. Go in to my servant; it may be that I shall obtain children by her. And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai. 3 So, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her servant, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife.

Did Abraham lose patience or did Sarah? Or is this just a situation where Abraham should have said "God told us and I believe Him. I will wait on Him".

concernedSBCer said...

Lin: Good question.

Ezekiel: Good point. However, as "Spiritual Leader" he should have said no.

Good thoughts.........

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
oc said...

The Pale Horse is still riding...

New BBC Open Forum said...

Good night, oc.

oc said...

good night NASS.

gmommy said...

News from Snap...
ABC News investigative reporter Brian Ross will present an expose about
Bishop Anthony J. O'Connell and St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary on Good
Morning America between 7:00 a.m. and 9 a.m. tomorrow morning, Tuesday, April 15.

gmommy comments
Baptist ministers who continue in the ministry and those that cover for them at the expense of the innocent and the wounded will hopefully be next on national TV.

oc said...

Stuff I've been thinkin' bout...

I keep hearing that the "bishops,elders, deacons. etc" are to be "beyond reproach."
I agree. That is certainly Scriptural.

But I don't see less standards set for the "nobodys" in Christ like me.
Should we not all be "without reproach" also?. If His blood was good enough for all, then His blood cleansed my soul just as white as what He did for any pastor, bishop,elder, deacon or whatever. And I am to honor His death and resurrection with my life, just as much as any pastor,elder,bishop, deacon, etc. is required. Therefore, I see no distinction in requirements between clergy and laity.

I have spent time on both sides of the "clergy" and "laity" roles. I think it sad that there are sides, issues, in this matter. I believe there should be no sides. For I see no lessening of the requirements for the so called "laity" as for what is required for the so called "clergy". I just think that God spelled out the requirements in the way He did in order to make sure that whoever is providing leadership in His church, that person should be an example to what all of us should be providing to each other and to a lost and dying world. I think it's no more, and it's no less than that. I believe that just because your name is "pastor", you are no more beloved to God, you have no more authority or worth in the Kingdom, than Joe Blow Christian in the back pew who shows up on Christmas and Easter.


I also see a lot of judgment on what it means to be "beyond reproach". For instance. Does it mean to not take a glass of wine?
If someone does take a sip, are they now "reproachable". (I don't even know if that's the right word.) I know all about not causing others to "stumble". I'm talking about my judgment on others. And yours.
If my faith has come to rest on a judgment such as that, my faith really isn't faith. It becomes a list of do's and don'ts to use against others. For us, it's called judging, because we really don't know about anyone else's relationship to God, do we?
So shall we judge another's worthiness to serve the Risen Master...all based on a glass of wine? (Or whatever.I hear the "inspecting of the fruit" sermon coming. But we better make sure we qualified fruit inspectors before we take the job.) I bet lot's of things are His judgment to make, not mine. And I am willing to bet (I couldn't find a better phrase) He will be much more Graceful than I am.
We are required to live out our faith. We are't required to live out anyone else's.
Judgment is for the Judge.


(Just thinking about stuff. Haven't worked it all yet. Maybe I never will.)

oc.

ezekiel said...

1 Cor 10: 29 I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience? 30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? 31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.

concernedSBCer said...

OC and Ez: THere is great debate going on because of the situation in Texas. As Americans, we have freedom of religion. Now, don't get me wrong.....abuse of girls is BAD....yet, all children have been taken away from their parents.

Just think about that for a moment.

Because someone in power doesn't like the way they *might* be raising their kids, they can come take them away...without due process.

Above reproach.

Is their religion above reproach? Is our response to it above reproach?

gmommy said...

CSBCer,
That one is too hard.
Any chance that young people and children are being used and abused sexually by the men in that cult....what else can we do but try and protect??

Their mothers can't protect them. Ones that should behave as fathers are the predators.

oc said...

Concernedsbcer said...

"Above reproach.

Is their religion above reproach? Is our response to it above reproach? Who's religion are you talking about?"

Excellent question. Every religion thinks theirs is "beyond reproach". Otherwise, they would not claim it as their religion. So beyond that, is there really freedom of religion in America? And do we really want it? We think we do, because it sounds so kind and benevolent. Until the Muslims start to out-number Christians. Or until some "cult" stock piles weapons because of their weird beliefs that "Armegeddon" is coming to some strange place called "Waco".
Or that someone decides that polygamy is fine, even going as far as incest and child molestation. Anyone can make whatever they want a "religion". Do you really want all out religious freedom? I have to tell you, I really don't. I'm already tired of living in Babylon.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Re the raid on the FLDS compound in Texas...

Several busloads of pregnant, teenage girls is not the result of "religious freedom." It's statutory rape (or no doubt in many cases, just plain rape) and child abuse -- no matter how you slice it.

oc said...

NASS said:
"Re the raid on the FLDS compound in Texas...

Several busloads of pregnant, teenage girls is not the result of "religious freedom." It's statutory rape (or no doubt in many cases, just plain rape) and child abuse -- no matter how you slice it."


oc says:
If that doesn't make us sick, then WE are.

oc said...

Hey. If we aren't sick about that kind of thing, then stop praying for anyone else. I don't think any of that kind of sanctimonious praying is going to be honored in the face of a Holy God. If our hearts are not broken by sin, ours or others, then we ourselves are the ones who need the help. We need to be heart-broken. I know it sounds "selfish", but I'm praying for me. You start praying for you.

Lin said...

Guys, If you have not read up on what goes on in the FDLS cult and other 'Mormon' cults then do it. There are several books that are a must read to understand it.

Under the Banner of Heaven and another one written by a woman that escaped. I cannot think of the title but her last name is Jessop.

We are talking about 14 year old girls given in marriage to old men and expect to live in a home with 3-4 other wives and tons of kids. The kids are usually neglected and are raised by whomever wants to that day. it is a horrible situation for girls.

In "Heaven", written by a reporter who investigated a wife murder in park City, Utah, he was stunned at what he learned. Almost the entire city is on welfare! Why? Because Polygamy is not recognized so when they marry a bunch of wives and have kids, the wives apply for welfare as a single mom. The corruption is so bad because the entire city bureacracy is made up of MOrmons!

YES! Take the kids and don't look back. It is rape and fathers are literally handing their daughters over. Many cases it is the "Patriarch' that decides who gets whose daughter. Everybody minds him.

Their 'religion' is breaking our 'moral' laws. What next? Are we going to look the other way when Muslims want to practice Sharia law here? We have 'individual' rights here. And any father that hands over his young daughter to be married to some 50 year old against her wishes needs to go to prison.

Polygamy is illegal now even in Utah. Rape is illegal. They are NOT getting civil marriages. They are married ONLY in the eyes of the FDLS. Otherwise they could not do it.

oc said...

Good night, NASS.

concernedSBCer said...

Nass: I have read every article I could find and haven't heard about the busloads of pregnant teenagers. Can you send a link?

Sexual Abuse is not acceptable under any guise, especially not a religious one. I am certainly not saying it is. I think what concerns me is the wholesale removal of all the children and only those children 5 and younger still have their moms with them. My children at 7 or even 10 would have been terrified. Also, I do think it *could* be a slippery slope. I homeschooled. Many think that constitutes abuse. Could my children have been taken away on a whim?

I realize there are a lot of gray areas. I guess what I am saying is that, aside from the alleged sexual abuse, is it a good thing to remove 416 children?

Junkster said...

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

Romeo and Juliet (Act 2, Scene 2)

Introducing...
Gracepoint Baptist Church

allofgrace said...

The response to the situation in Texas, is one of a legal nature. Religious freedom ends where the law begins. Our laws are there for a reason. To protect religious freedom, yes....but also to protect individuals and society as a whole from "religious" practices which run counter not only to our laws, but even to any standard of decency. While I would agree that separating children from parents is a traumatic event, I can't help but wonder which would be the greater trauma....taking them away, or leaving them in a cult in which the "divine' leader takes upon himself the "right" to "give" underage girls to grown men as "wives". Not only does the law of the land forbid such things, but our consciences tell us that this should not be....and certainly not under the guise of "religion".

Lin said...

"I think what concerns me is the wholesale removal of all the children and only those children 5 and "

One of the things that stunned me in reading up on this cult was that many times the kids do not bond to their natural mother as we understand it. Notice how they are having a hard time finding out whose kid belongs to what woman in this situation. The kids are sort of the property of the whole family and all the wives. It is very complicated and hard for us to understand. You need to read up on their lifestyle.

To them it is normal. The kids know nothing else. The women have NO marketable skills and are stuck. They could not make it ojn the outside. They have all been taught how anyone outside their group is evil and wants to harm them.

Welcome to cult 101 and its affects.

In this case, those kids are not better off with their mothers BACK in the compound.

But tell me why the moms won't tell the authorities whose kids are whose? Who are they protecting?

imaresistor said...

Hey junkster...

Transition??? (a bad word)

So, what was the name of this church BEFORE it became Gracepoint? Apparently, I have missed something.

New BBC Open Forum said...

ima,

All depends on what you're transitioning from (and to). I'm sure they'd like to forget about the past 20 years and make a fresh start.

It was Walnut Grove Baptist.

Cakes said...

I wish them the best in making a fresh start.

concernedSBCer said...

Junk: Is that the church at the corner of Walnut Grove and Sanga?

concernedSBCer said...

Lin: You are exactly right, of course.

I find it so hard to even understand that lifestyle. It goes back to a saying I repeat to my kids often, "Your freedom ends where mine begins." The freedom for them to worship as they see fit ends at the beginning of law or the ignoring of those girl's freedoms.

But a good point was brought up....the transition for these kids will be difficult.

New BBC Open Forum said...

concernedsbcer,

Yes.

New BBC Open Forum said...

From Bellevue's latest:

Other Ways to Love Memphis

Demonstrate "Bellevue Loves Memphis" every day -- not just on the scheduled workdays. Check out these ideas:

Loan your four-wheeler or trailer for the Workday.

Refer a friend in need to Bellevue's Care Groups.

Pick up a "Bellevue Loves Memphis" shirt at the bookstore.

And how, pray tell, are those things (especially the shirts) going to demonstrate one's "love" for Memphis?

allofgrace said...

Ways to show love for Memphis:

1. Insist on a recall of the current mayor.
2. Insist that his replacement undergo psychiatric evaluation and only be seated if he/she is declared NOT to be a delusional megalomaniac.
3.Petition for a "fruit basket turnover" of the city council, and replace them with a completely new group who have NOT been convicted of crimes.
4. Same as above, but regarding state legislators representing Memphis.
5. Fire the school board, tear down the public school system and start all over...WITHOUT you know who.
6. Refuse to pay a 17% property tax hike secretly designed to pay salaries for "made up" positions for political cronies, but posited as "necessary" to maintain services which already stink.
7. Do all your shopping down south or across the bridge, till the numbskulls in office finally "get" that 9.25% sales tax is usury.
8. Petition that the name "Memphis" for this city be changed to a name more appropriate, since Memphis means "place of good abode".
9. Insist that the powers that be stop wasting taxpayers money on dead-end, ridiculous projects such as the Pyramid, FedEx Forum (where's the parking garage?), etc.
10. Turn the penal farm back into a work farm instead of a playhouse for criminals to perfect their techniques, while getting an education at taxpayer expense.

of course this isn't exhaustive, but it's a start ;-)

New BBC Open Forum said...

And a very good start it would be! However, last time I was at FedEx Forum they had a very nice parking garage. Am I missing something?

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