Sunday, March 30, 2008

The 2008 "Annual" Bizness Meeting

It's hard to believe a whole year has passed since that fiasco on March 25, 2007 called a "church business meeting." This morning, March 30th, the 2008 "annual church business meeting" took place. Of course, the church bylaws, abbreviated as they are, call for monthly business meetings, but who cares? Bylaws, schmylaws... rules don't apply to us. They don't even care enough to try to change the bylaws which have remained unchanged since they were penned in 1929. They just ignore them or deny they exist.

For anyone who's interested, the minutes of last year's meeting have been posted here. I believe they may have left out a few minor details... such as when they cut off the microphones while members were calling on them to "divide the house" and how several people, namely CW, were left standing at the microphones... and how non-members were allowed to vote.

Last year's budget (2007-2008) is here. This year's budget hasn't been posted on Bellevue's site yet. Maybe we'll see that soon, especially since it's been approved now.

You can bet after last year that even more controls were in place to avoid a repeat performance, but I'm sure it wasn't nearly as big a concern this year as nearly all the recalcitrants are gone, so of those remaining, either no one cares or they are all in lockstep with the administration. Or maybe they're all in lockstep about not caring. No doubt a few stragglers do have concerns but know that realistically their voices don't count.

The movement toward an "annual" business meeting (in spite of the bylaws calling for monthly meetings) is straight out of the "Transitioning" playbook. But Bellevue isn't going PD. Oh, no.

While last year's "Celebration" was pretty well packed, today's was not. I would estimate the floor crowd at about 60-65% capacity, and the balcony was perhaps 20-25% full. But that was just for the service... the only service held this morning... which didn't end until around noon. (It started at 10:00.) Note to administration: Why not just have one service every Sunday and plow the savings in utilities, etc. back into the budget?

The service was typical for Bellevue today. There was music before the service started, and boy, was it rockin'! It almost scared me away before I even entered the sanctuary. The music during the service was very loud, mostly catchy 7-11 choruses, but I thought some of the music was inspiring, especially The Old Rugged Cross which should have had everyone in the mood to worship. Beautiful harmony, soaring instrumentals, some of the most inspirational lyrics in hymndom.... Then Steve Gaines had to do what he does nearly every week and make it about him. He jumped up and immediately broke into an "impromptu" a cappella solo and the congregation soon joined him. Please, pastor, I'm trying to give you some helpful advice here. It's not about you! (Nor is it about Jamie, but The Jamie Show has become a Bellevue staple.) These little spur-of-the-moment, pastoral solos, tacked onto the end of a congregational hymn or inserted into the middle of a sermon are not "impromptu," they unnecessarily and inappropriately call attention to yourself, and IMO they are not conducive to a positive worship experience.


There were so many ovations this morning, I lost count. There was applause for the pastor's bad jokes, applause for the music, applause several times during the sermon. I've noticed lately the choir even applauds for themselves following their special numbers! I've never seen a choir anywhere do that! Very strange.

I'm not a fan of ovations in church unless it's for a really good reason, and employed in excess, as we're seeing at Bellevue, it just cheapens the whole worship service. (So does the state of dress -- or undress -- of some of the congregants, but I digress.) Some of the things people applauded for this morning were ridiculous. A couple of times -- such as when the Iraq War veteran was introduced -- it was appropriate.

We were treated to a color graphic of the church parking lot on the IMAG, a painful attempt at a stand-up comedy routine about congregational parking habits, and informed that we were sinning if we parked in the wrong lot. Heh heh heh. I wonder if that applies to the people who've been parking in Mrs. Rogers' reserved parking space? News flash: Mrs. Rogers left Bellevue over six months ago! She doesn't need a reserved parking space there now. If one didn't know better, one might think the church is trying to give the impression that Mrs. Rogers is still faithfully attending Bellevue. I'm sure it was just an oversight that the sign wasn't removed.

The sermon seemed to go on forever. I thought at one point surely he was about finished, only to look down at my fill-in-the-blank outline and realize he wasn't even halfway through. Good thing the seats are comfortable! There were two very slick video presentations during the sermon. One on "giving" (what else?) contained some especially impressive (i.e. high-priced) special effects. He made some good points, at a considerably higher decibel level than necessary. (More advice, this to preachers in general: YOU DON'T HAVE TO YELL TO GET YOUR POINT ACROSS!!!) One of the best, I thought, was when he called out Barack Obama's pastor (though not by name) as "the church in Illinois that claims they're 'ethno-centric.' I think that's despicable!" Amen!

In his sermon, entitled "The House of the Lord," with special emphasis on "a house of __giving__," Steve Gaines still somehow managed to bring up the subject of alcohol. I knew the second he said, "Before I go on... I know I've brought this up before... " what was coming. I thought to myself, "Here we go again." I don't think I've heard him preach a sermon in months that something hasn't been worked in about the "eeeeeeevils of alcohol." It's as if he's obsessed with the subject. Keeping a confessed child molester and known sexual predator on staff and allowing him to freely roam the halls of the church for six months is only "a mistake of the mind" and "uncharted waters." Ho hum. But touching alcohol... verily, just having alcohol in your house (even for cooking purposes?) is one of the eight deadly sins. (And for the record, I do not drink alcohol.)

Finally, there was an invitation during which it appeared several people made decisions (and that's always good), some brief IMAG announcements, and the "business meeting" began immediately. Curiously, this year there was no announcement about people going to get their children out of the nursery or only members staying and voting in the meeting, although I seem to recall the pastor saying something along the lines of, "Let's get this over with so we can go to lunch." (So glad to know our pastor has his priorities straight!) As soon as the announcements began, people began streaming out in droves. By the time the meeting started a few minutes later, the floor capacity was probably 25% and the balcony about 10%.

Last year, Bryan Miller, 2007 deacon chairman, chaired the meeting. This year David Coombs performed the honors, there was no sign of a parliamentarian, and there was one microphone set up for people to ask questions. Only two would.

He opened by stating that, for the record, a quorum was present. (Hmmm... Since David Coombs has been ordained for over a year already, I wonder when he's going to take a turn preaching. Oops. Sorry. I digressed again.) Now, I remember last year there was some discussion here about the requirements for a quorum. I believe the number 10% was tossed out. Bryan Miller used that figure when he stated there were 3000 people present last year. Someone else said Robert's Rules of Order don't require a quorum unless one is specifically required by the organization's bylaws. (Bellevue's bylaws don't mention a quorum.) So I don't know if there was a quorum present today or not... or if one was required to be. I would guess there were maybe... I'm being generous here... 1800-2000 people present for the meeting today. If they're still insisting we have over 29,000 members (which is a joke), it wasn't close to 10%.

Each person who approached the microphone was asked to state his or her name and how long he or she had been a member of Bellevue. (Why should the latter matter?) The first person up was a man who prefaced his motion by stating how important benevolence is and that there's not a line-item amount for that in the budget. (I'm not sure I understood his name, so I won't state it until I can confirm it.) He then proposed Bellevue designate 1% of its receipts to be used for benevolence purposes. (Given this year's budget of $24 million, this would come to $240,000.)

Aubrey Earnheart, chairman of the Finance Committee and Budget Planning Committee member, presented a brief summary of the cash receipts on hand as of the end of March. He started to address the man's question when Ed Rollins, chairman of the Budget Planning Committee, interrupted and stated that there is indeed a line-item amount in the budget for benevolence, so I gathered that meant that was the end of the discussion.

Now, I have a copy of the proposed 2008-2009 budget. I could be missing something, and I'll readily admit it if I am, but I've gone through it several times and see only one line-item entry for "benevolence" (or anything close) in the 2008-2009 budget, and that's $36,000 under "Missions" for "Benevolence - Non-member." That comes to 0.15% of the total budget (the number for 2007-2008 was zero) and includes nothing for members. They've budgeted twice that much for "ball field maintenance" alone! The man didn't press the point and returned to his seat.

The cash receipts said to be on hand (rounded by yours truly) as of the end of March were:

Restricted

Love Offering (2004-2007): $4.8 million

Other: $3.0 million

Unrestricted

$10.0 million

Total

$17.9 million (difference due to rounding)

I don't have the breakdown, but I remember they said the total on deposit this time last year was almost $19 million.

A woman named Carla then asked for clarification about whether any of the currently restricted cash deposits were going to be moved to the unrestricted category and freed up for other projects since the Love Offering projects like the prayer chapel and children's center have never materialized. The pastor interrupted and stepped to the microphone. He stated that when he first came he was asked to list some of the things he thought Bellevue should do with the Love Offering. "You know I love prayer, and I know you do, too," so he said he told them he thought we should build a prayer chapel. He said that under the direction of Carolyn Higginbothom, Minister of... er... Director of Prayer... uhhh now just "prayer coordinator," that project was turned over to the Long-Term Planning Committee for their consideration. I guess they're still "considering" because that's exactly where this project was one year ago.

Anyway, Mr. Earnheart explained that the restricted funds were not going to be reclassified and added he thought it was a good question.

Can someone tell me why a church would keep almost $18 million just sitting in the bank? Of course, there has to be a cushion, but just imagine how several million dollars could be used to further the Kingdom of Christ!

The first motion up for a vote was the Committee on Committees'... well... committees. Only Baptists could come up with a term like "Committee on Committees"! Reminds me of the age-old question... how many Baptists does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: At least 15. One to change the light bulb and three committees to approve the change and decide who brings the potato salad and fried chicken.

You can see a list of all the committee heads and members here. As far as I could tell, there were no opposing votes.

Next up was the vote on the proposed 2008-2009 budget. "All in favor, stand. All opposed, likewise." From what I could tell it was unanimous. Apparently the "I don't care" votes weren't counted.

The last order of business was the selection of... actually the rubber-stamping of... the 2008 Bellevue messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention. Who knows how they were selected? You'll no doubt recognize several of the names from last year's list of messengers.

2008 SBC Messengers:

Steve and Donna Gaines
David Coombs
Bart Berretta (Men's Ministry committee chairman)
Darrell Clarke (Minister, Biblical Guidance)
Michael Day
Joe Jernigan
David Perdue (ex BOD member for MABTS & LWF)
Bob Sorrell (brought Claude Thomas to GBC)
Bill Street (Gardendale transplant & son-in-law of the Caldwells - he of fence-jumping fame, she of the pastor search committee)

And with that, the 2008 annual Bellevue church business meeting was adjourned. My, what a difference a year makes! Church life is so much simpler without all those pesky troublemakers getting in the way! I would say the whole "mood" was different this year from last. Last year there was a sense of anticipation, mixed with cautious optimism because concerned members thought they were finally getting the opportunity to be heard and the chance to affect some positive changes. Of course, we know none of that happened.

This year was entirely different. I got the sense, mainly from the mass exodus before the meeting started, but also from the relaxed demeanor of the powers-that-be lined up on the dais, that they were confident there wasn't going to be any opposition (though I'm certain they were prepared for any potential scenario) and that, in general, the people really couldn't have cared less. They knew they were rubber-stamping whatever Steve & Co. wanted to do, and they were content with that. That's fine. More power to them. They got what they deserved. Unfortunately, several thousand of the rest of us didn't. Most of us have (or will) vote with our feet. I guess it's like they say... to the victor go the spoils. Now, will someone please tell me again... who was the victor? And what exactly were the spoils?

128 comments:

concernedSBCer said...

So very sad.

So many misled.

MOM4 said...

Having experienced last year's "meeting" and just now reading about this one, one scripture comes to my mind and my heart - Romans 2:1-16.

....and yes concernedsbcer, it is a very sad day.

Cakes said...

It reminds me of the skit on Mr. Show about "Worthington's Law," which states that "someone who makes more money than you is better than you, and therfore beyond criticism." The spokes-snob that narates explains how Sammy Hagar, the red rocker, is greater than the so-called Great Caruso, who made almost nothing. Then an auto mechanic says, "that means I'm greater than Galileo and Copernicus put togetha.'

"That's right Brainiac; and I'm better than you," the narrator snarls.

The humor is it's preposterous logic, but folks who levy power and weaLth as a privelidge to avoid consequences or stack the deck are asking you to swallow that very logic. It's really egregious to justify or sanctify it in spiritual lingo.

It's just as egregious to accept such crumbs from the wealthy or powerful, and anyone who will does so with eyes open. If anyone was misled, they really, really wanted to be. It's easy, convenient and doesn't risk anything.

On a different note:

I don't know if you'all have been keeping up with Tibet, but please pray for its people. Tibet is near and dear to my heart. Many hundreds of monks have been beaten, shot, murdered and others taken into custody, their whereabouts unknown.

These monks have taken a vow of non-violence, their daily practice is directed towards compassion and giving away any positive merit they may generate to others. Some teachers believe they knew that they were marching to their deaths--that they had to.

Whatever differences you have to the Buddhist path, these brave monks, or those they've left behind, deserve our thoughts.

BkWormGirl said...

Cakes -
My thoughts are with the people of Tibet. I do wish that the world was a place where our nice and pleasant efforts and intentions were rewarded with goodness. I long for the day when we are able to stand before God and to see the world He desired for us to live in. Until then, I place my trust in the blood of His Son, and ask for protection for all those being persecuted by those who do evil on a regular basis.

With regard to the issue of "to the victor goes the spoils..."

I am not sure who the victor is either. What I do know is that no where in this mess was God glorified. The kingdom of God did not benefit from any of this. So if I look at this situation from a either or point of view. I feel that Satan was the victor. Now before anyone gets excited I am not saying that SG is working for Satan. I just don't feel that God "won" this particular battle. Thankfully, we do not put out faith in God dependent on the outcome of the earthly battles, but rather in the only battle that counts and in that battle Jesus was the victor over sin and death.

gmommy said...

So many questions concerning this business meeting that no one in leadership think they owe anyone.

Where was all the formality from last year??
The Roberts Rules we were all responsible for using last year?

Where was the Parliamentarian???

Brian Miller chaired the meeting last year.....why was DC the chair this year rather than Eric Brand??

Were the "elders we didn't know we had" sitting up there in chairs like they should have the long white wigs on??

and of course there was only one mic for questions....hasn't Steve been "preaching" (more like ranting)about how the Bible says the leaders don't have to discuss decisions with the congregation!!!?

What a joke all this was....and SG and his crew weren't the least bit concerned that they weren't above reproach..last year or this year.

At least DC didn't use the word homosexual for no reason like Brian Miller did.

After watching the short video on Saving BBC...I wonder why Josh didn't correct BM when he called the motion on the floor (the one about sexual purity for ministers)"about homosexuals"??

BkWormGirl said...

If this were not so sad it would be funny.

A friend of mine who still attends BBC and cannot understand why people like me left - just called about some other things. She was going on and on about all the wonderful things that are going on there. I could not resist and asked how the meeting went. I was shocked when she said, "It was a sweet meeting - the presence of God was all over the meeting with all the trouble-makers gone."

And yet again... those who seek the truth are trouble... ugh people tire me.

oc said...

Bkwormgirl said:
"With regard to the issue of "to the victor goes the spoils..."

I am not sure who the victor is either. What I do know is that no where in this mess was God glorified. The kingdom of God did not benefit from any of this. So if I look at this situation from a either or point of view. I feel that Satan was the victor. Now before anyone gets excited I am not saying that SG is working for Satan. I just don't feel that God "won" this particular battle. Thankfully, we do not put out faith in God dependent on the outcome of the earthly battles, but rather in the only battle that counts and in that battle Jesus was the victor over sin and death."


I'm sorry you feel that way about it. I see it differently. The Kingdom of God did benefit from the battle. God won the battle in the hearts of His soldiers who have fought in this strange theatre, which we at first believed was familiar and shared ground. And those who fought, and yet still fight, have learned that we need to expect low down tactics from the decieved, even though they may call us 'brethren'. Which is one of the things He has taught us in this battle... the enemy is among us. Some of the enemy look like us. Those we should be able to trust, well...should not be trusted.

But He is preparing us for bigger things that are coming. So much for trusting in human hearts, huh?

So it was not a wasted. We won't be so easily fooled again.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Well put!

concernedSBCer said...

bkwmgirl: How did you restrain yourself?

TROUBLEMAKERS????

How blind......it just really makes me wonder.....

If they can't see false teaching when it's slapping them in the face, how can they see the TRUTH?

gmommy said...

....all the trouble-makers gone."

Don't give a single thought to the people that were hurt, the families that were split....the BBC refugees still out there too disillusioned to even walk in a church anymore.

The presense of GOD was all over the meeting??????

Basic lesson you won't hear at BBC anymore ...God is never involved in anything that goes against His Word.

What does God require of us? To do justice and love kindness...

oc said...

bkwormgirl,
Good to see you back and posting!

oc said...

Yeah gmommy. You hang on to Micah 6:8.
The Lord my God keeps hammering me with that verse. Most of my sermons have come from there. It's been mine "Hammering verse" since 1991.

Jussayin'.
oc.

Christa Brown said...

Cakes: I just watched a wonderful documentary that I picked off Netflix a couple nights ago called "Tibet: Cry of the Snow Leopards." I thought it was going to be about snow leopards, but wanted to watch it because I figured it would have stunning scenery of the Himalayas. As it turned out, it had plenty of stunning vistas, but it was about the people, culture, and political history of Tibet. (It was made a couple years ago.) Snow lions are an ancient symbol of protection for Tibet and are on the Tibet flag.... hence the name of the film. I learned SO much more about Tibet and its people, and it was profoundly moving. Such enormous suffering - yes - they are in my thoughts.

concernedSBCer said...

Cakes: It's been bothering me too. I don't understand what the Olympic committee was thinking...if a country will do that to it's own people (like Sadam did to the Kurds)....well, what can you say.

There aren't words.

gmommy said...

I need to watch that...I'm embarrassed to say I know nothing about Tibet

Cakes said...

Wow,

Hadn't heard of it--I'd like to see it. If you want to see a movie about daily life, there's one called Himalaya, about the Dolpas. They are salt traders that make treacherous journeys with their yaks.

gmommy said...

are the weather sirens going to go off again???? My tub gets really uncomfortable.

oc said...

With all due respect...
Let's all get caught up in Tibet...
While others in Kentucky can't even eat. And the one who lives right next door to you, in your neighborhood, right there in Memphis, can't afford peanut butter. Yeah. let's get all misty about the orient. Why not get real in your own neighgorhood?

Shouldn't it start there anyway?

Jussayin'.
oc.

Lynn said...

Its funny though. Al Gore complains about our environment, yet at the same time, China's putting out more pollution than we are. Its so bad in Beijing some of the Olympians are threatening to boycott due to health concerns as a result of their pollution.

gmommy said...

OC....
that doesan't mean we shouldn't CARE about others

New BBC Open Forum said...

You know, "oc," in his own unique way, raises an interesting point. I've always wondered why church youth leaders seem to think they have to take the youth on "mission" trips to places hundreds of miles from home when the fields are "white already to harvest" in our own back yards. Could it be that some of these "mission" trips are little more than glorified vacation trips?

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Why not get real in your own neighgorhood?"

Is that where Al Gore lives?

New BBC Open Forum said...

It's deplorable what the government of Bejing is doing to thousands of their people, all for the Olympics. On the news tonight they showed families who'd been tossed out on the street -- evicted from their houses and apartments -- just so they could build Olympic venues that will be used for two weeks. They showed an old woman in a wheelchair, surrounded by her family, and she was bawling like a baby. The family had just been evicted from an apartment their family had lived in for seven decades. They had no place to go.

oc said...
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oc said...
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oc said...
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oc said...

gmommy says:
"OC....
that doesan't mean we shouldn't CARE about others"

Sure. But what if those "others" are right next door? Why do they have to be thousands of miles away?

So I will ask... how much have you sent to Tibet? How much to Kentucky? How much to Memphis?
How much on your street?

I know...Our own street doesn't sound as good as ...China.

Yeah, I know. I want to be able say that I've saved Tibet. It doesn't sound as good if I've
just ministered to some poor people on Horn Lake Road, Mississippi.
I'm just saying. The mission field starts at our door. That's all.

concernedSBCer said...

Nass: I agree. I do think many a mission trip are glorified vacations. My son was in World Changers (a great organization IMHO) and I always thought it was funny how he would go to exotic places like.....St. Louis to sleep on a gym floor and take cold showers and re-roof houses and paint....while World Changers from St. Louis would do the same in Memphis! Wouldn't it just be more cost effective to stay at home and take care of your area????

However, I must disagree a bit with OC. Acts 1:8 says: "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

It doesn't say we are ONLY to be witnesses in our neighborhoods. I think it's like the "many members of one body" verse. We are called to pray for all, yet we might be called to serve in a specific area. My heart is grieved by evil, period. The killings on Lester St. broke my heart just as what is happening in Tibet does as well.

It's all the same evil. And unfortunately, it's not going to get better until Jesus returns at the Second Coming. In fact...it will get worse. But while I am still here, I will continue to pray for those impacted by evil in the uttermost parts of the world as well as those down the street.

32yrs@bbc said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
You know, "oc," in his own unique way, raises an interesting point. I've always wondered why church youth leaders seem to think they have to take the youth on "mission" trips to places hundreds of miles from home when the fields are "white already to harvest" in our own back yards. Could it be that some of these "mission" trips are little more than glorified vacation trips?

11:23 PM, March 31, 2008
===================
My thoughts exactly! BTW mucho
kudos on your excellent expose' of
the Biz Meeting. Many chose to just stay home...while others were in the exodus leaving before it started. The leadership may be ignorant of how many members are @BBC, but very unhappy and just waiting it out. IMO Bellevue has already made the transition and those who are waiting it out are going to be sadly disappointed.
BTW I was surprised by the $18
million in surplus with all the
extra expenditures of T.V.commercials and billboard advertising.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you, 32yrs.

"BTW I was surprised by the $18
million in surplus with all the
extra expenditures of T.V.commercials and billboard advertising."


Notice I said, "The cash receipts said to be on hand.... " I'm not quite buyin' that one either. Who would ever know? They don't even publish attendance numbers, let alone offering statistics... or any more than a very generalized "budget" that, when you start looking at the details is little more than smoke and mirrors. IMO of course.

oc said...

Concernerdsbcer said:
"However, I must disagree a bit with OC. Acts 1:8 says: "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

No, you are not disagreeing with me. Your Jerusalem is Memphis. Let's take care of that first, then Judea, then Samaria. Where is the disagreement?

Christa Brown said...

On the care for those far vs. those near topic, I don't see it as an "either/or" but rather as a "both/and" to the extent we are able.

The feeling of compassion for the suffering of other humans is part of what makes us human. And I believe that the good which can come of our own suffering is enlarged compassion for the suffering of others.

That said, I certainly recognize the difficulty that lies at the core of oc's thought. Suffering closer to home often makes us more uncomfortable precisely because it rests on our own doorstep and because the people closer to home seem more like us. This is why Southern Baptist leaders such as Richard Land find it so much easier to talk about the suffering of prostitutes and of the family members of Eliot Spitzer rather than talking about the suffering of Baptist clergy abuse victims. It's why Southern Baptist leaders prefer to point their fingers at Catholic bishops and talk about the suffering of abused Catholic children rather than to see the suffering of the many hundreds who have been abused by Southern Baptist clergy. We're too close to home and remind them of the suffering that their OWN system inflicts and of the evil that rests at their own doorstep.

Cakes: Thanks for the additional film suggestion.

oc said...

Thanks Christa. Those who are "close to home" represent to me the 24 year old girl who got thrown down the stairs in my apartment complex. I heard her screaming, and I caught her at the bottom of the stairs, she was already bleeding...

oc said...

It's much easier for me to send money to China. It's hard for me to wipe the blood off the girl who just got beat up next door...

BkWormGirl said...

OC -
With regard to your comments about personal successes/victories during this time. They are just that a few personal experiences of faith strengthened. For far too many however, faith was weekend. Friendships ruined. Trust betrayed. Warriors have been wounded. Cynics have grown. Wounds have been re-traumatized, and left bleeding. The testimony of "Christians" has been tarnished. And we have been reduced to "no better than the Catholic church" in the eyes of many. Those standing on the "outside" looking in see this entire debacle as just one more proof that the church is nothing more than pompous fools who like to self promote. The Kingdom of God does not benefit from that. So this is just one of those things that we will have to agree to disagree on. I don't discount personal growth, but even on this board, I hear a lot of very wounded people still talking about the level of pain they feel daily. (I am among that group so don't think I am pointing fingers or saying that in an accusing manner - for those of us in that position, there is no victory in all of this.)

As far as global or local missions, I think there is great benefit in both. When we go globally we are made aware of how precious our blessings are to live in a country such as we do. With all of our flaws (and they are many and growing) we are still living in the best country in the world. Going beyond our boarders can help to motivate us to do more both globally and locally. The "problems" of home seem so much less when they are seen in the greater picture of what is happening around the world.

However, working at home is also a reality that must be done. I think for youth it is good to take them outside of their home area to get them working. For this simple reason, even Jesus knew that in his own home town he would be mocked, rejected, ignored - I think it is good to give kids an opportunity to experience a opportunity where they are able to do the right thing, and focus on the fact that they are working for the good of the kingdom of God and not what the local folks are saying.

At the end of the day, I feel that children (and adults) should be working in their back yard, regionally and globally throughout each year. Acts 1:8 doesn't say it is a progress, take care of Jerusalem, and then take care of Judea and then take care of Samaria. It simply says to take care of all three. The implication is at the same time.

Anyone have big plans this weekend? I am thinking maybe we need to build a boat, a big, big boat...

Cakes said...

OC,

Pardon, friend, but I am keenly aware of what is taking place in my own backyard. A teacher never really clocks out, and scores of my kids are in the very situations to which you alude.

I don't think thoughtfulness directed toward the distant diminishes compassion for the near, I asked no one to send money to China (and Tibet is not China, no matter how much China claims it as her own), simply to remember those folks in their prayers.

It seems odd to me that this is not a forum which finds any controversy over what our country is doing to supposedly aid democratic reforms in Iraq, yet the mention of Tibet or its suffering causes consternation.

I know many Tibetan refugees personally, I respect their culture and philosophy, and simply thought that if you care about me (which I know you do) then you might care to share some of my concerns about the world we live in, not to diminish the suffering we both witness on a daily basis.

No controversy was intended.

Just say'n, dude.

concernedSBCer said...

bkwmgirl.....I agree....Acts 1:8 is not a progress, it is a "be sure to do it all."

A boat? Might be necessary....as long as it has a TV in it....
Go Tigers!!!

oc said...

Sorry Bkwormgirl, I don't agree with you nor with Concernedsbcer in this instance...

It was set it order...First Jerusalem... then Judea... then Samaria...then the rest of the world. To me it looks like you need to get your backyard straightened up first before you look to set the rest of the world straight. (and I'm talking about myself here.)

oc said...

Yes, Cakes,
I don't diminish anyone elses suffering.

But I sure won't overlook the same suffering that is happening right in my neighborhood, and at the same time think I am doing something godly just because I feel bad that the same thing is happening in Tibet. Neither place is getting fixed by me feeling bad, is it?

oc said...

PS. Cakes, A counselor to these kids doesn't clock out either. In case you don't remember, you are talking to one whose has given up his own life. We are on the same side of the battle lines. Let's remember that.
Jussayin'.
oc.

oc said...

Well, my deal is that you cannot fix Tibet while your backyard is on fire. Put the fire out in your own backyard, after that then you can save someone elses backyard.

Jussayin'.
oc.

oc said...

And if we could get some this moderation disabled, we might get something done. I have things to say, but they aren't getting said timely, so they make no sense to anyone.
Yeah.I'm getting kinda tired of this too.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Well, you can thank our "friends" like WHS and "bood" for comment moderation being on. I'm generally posting comments pretty quickly. Sometimes having moderation on gives people a chance to reflect on their comments before they publish them.

Just sayin'

oc said...

yes ma'am. That wasn't supposed to be a slam on you. Honestly.

You are posting quickly, considering we are under the "moderation" thing, and I thank you for that. You are doing an amazing job. I was just expressing that I cannot express what I need to in a timely manner. Anyway, I don't really expect me to be understood by anyone anyway. I'm sure not Ronald Reagan, I'm sure not the great communicator. I've had a problem with that most of my life.

So as much as I complain... maybe moderation is good for me...

gmommy said...

OC..
I THINK you have been traumatized by the recent event you posted.
That doesn't give you the freedom to be overbearing or harsh to our friends here.
I encourage you to get a grip before you post (deep breaths or vigorous exercise)
and remember.....to do justice and love kindness.

Be outraged by the evil but don't take ot out on Cakes or CSBCer or Bkwmgirl.
We need to show respect to each other and last time I checked....we hadn't voted you to be in charge.
I THINK you just came down from the "mountain top"...don't blow it by spitting from the pit,friend.

Be sad...not harsh.Maybe a good time to slap yourself and snap out of it:)
JMO... from your blog friend

maybejustmaybe said...

On Acts 1:8, a thought:

Jesus' words were to the disciples (and thus, to "the church") -- the mission to reach locally, regionally, and globally is to the collective "all" of us. Individually, He calls us to our mission fields as He sees fit -- perhaps you to Horn Lake, the Memphis inner city, or Frayser ... perhaps another to rural Montana to plant a church ... perhaps yet another to Tibet, Venezuela, Kenya, or elsewhere. The point is that we are witnesses as He leads ... "wherever He leads, I'll go" ... and by His spirit, I will make disciples as I go. None of us can go to Jerusalem, Judea, and Samaria all at once except as He leads us to work corporately.

concernedSBCer said...

Cakes: Thank you for sharing your concern about Tibet. I have been, but will be more faithful to, pray.

concernedSBCer said...

Sorry, OC.....we can agree to disagree. Not a crime in that.
:)

I believe there needs to be a balance. We can't focus only on international missions, nor home missions. It needs to be balanced.

We've had many discussions here that our local churches have turned benevolence over to a "corporation" of sorts and it seems to relieve many of the misery sitting in the pew next to them. However, what happens in far off places have impact on us as well.

It all needs to be balanced. If we wait to reach across the ocean until we get our backyard "fixed" we will never be able to reach.

sickofthelies said...

Cakes,

The suffering of the people in Tibet will remain in my prayers.

Satan is at work everywhere, not just the good ole USA.

sickofthelies said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
You know, "oc," in his own unique way, raises an interesting point. I've always wondered why church youth leaders seem to think they have to take the youth on "mission" trips to places hundreds of miles from home when the fields are "white already to harvest" in our own back yards. Could it be that some of these "mission" trips are little more than glorified vacation trips?

*****

I couldn't agree more! My son is doing a mission trip with a local church( not the church to which we belong) that is going to be fixing up houses in Bartlett.

sickofthelies said...

bkgrlworm said:

I was shocked when she said, "It was a sweet meeting - the presence of God was all over the meeting with all the trouble-makers gone."

****

Oh my. That statement just put a dagger in my heart.

For all of the women ( and men) who were affected by PW, and the way that it was handled, WE are troublemakers?

WE, who have had such wounding in our lives, and who were betrayed yet again by our church, WE are the troublemakers?

David Combs stole my CONFIDENTIAL file from the counseling office, put it on his desk for the world to see, and I object, and this makes ME a troublemaker?

I'd like to have a conversation with your oh-so-ignorant friend.
These are the kind of people the church is full of. More and more, I am wanting no part of them or their phony religion.

gmommy said...

Good point, MJM.

gmommy said...

SOTL,
I met a man yesterday that had been played up to me by a friend.
The man asked me where I was going to church...I cautiously said...a small, quiet church. When asked when I left BBC.....I bit my lip,smiled and said the PW issue was the last straw for me.

This wonderful,admirable man..according to my friend...
replied...
I didn't pay any attention to what was going on....that wasn't anything I was interested in.

Now I will be asked my opinion of him.....
I would think a "wonderful" person would be a thinker... and want to know what is going on in his own church????????? so confusing!

oc said...

gmommy,

You have the wrong idea.I'm not taking it out on anyone.

We need to be looking at our own neighborhood. Looking at fixing that. I think I can help that much quicker than I can fix Tibet.


That was all I was saying.

I do love Tibet. That is part of John 3:16.
I'm with that. But I sure know that my neighborhood needs Jesus too. That's all I was trying to say.

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
oc said...

gmommy.
I'm sorry if I was harsh or overbearing. I'm going to review and see how I can be a better person. He and I are still working on me, did you even notice that? Yeah. It's still a work in progress. I Guess the progress isn't going real fast.
Love you gmommy.
oc.

oc said...

I am only saying. Bloom where you are planted. God planted you there, for a reason. So what if He didn't plant you in Tibet? He planted you in sorry old Horn Lake Mississippi.So now what?

michelle mann said...

OK, what's wrong with Horn Lake, MS? It seems to be popping up alot lately!

sickofthelies said...

gmommy,

It's difficult for me to understand how a ' wonderful, admirable' man could not give a flyin fig about a child who had been sodomized by his own father, who happened to be a minister in the church to which he belongs.

It would make sense, though, that those still at BBC could understand that concept,with no problems.

After all, I think that those of use who took issue with it ( the troublemakers) have long since left the building, and the only ones remaining are those who were totally unaffected by it.

After all, " HE ONLY DID IT ONCE" according to my former SS teacher.
(yawn)

oc said...

Hey Michelle.
Nothing is wrong with Horn Lake,MS.
Except the fact that I live there.

concernedSBCer said...

Michelle: Nothing is wrong with Horn Lake! Unfortunately it's like everywhere else...some folks don't do the right thing, aren't kind, etc. and it causes others pain. OC had a bad situation near his house and it really bothered him. It's a reminder to all of us that we are missionaries in our neighborhoods.

Like Cakes brought up, we also need to remember to pray for those far away facing persecution as well.

oc said...

"Be outraged by the evil but don't take ot out on Cakes or CSBCer or Bkwmgirl.
We need to show respect to each other and last time I checked....we hadn't voted you to be in charge."


OK. Thanks.

oc said...

I'm just going to say it, again, although everyone seems to be getting upset with me...

Your mission field starts right outside your front door.

It's so easy to pray for Tibet.



Now I'm done and I'll go away.

maybejustmaybe said...

Senior moment ...

When I posted earlier, I had two thoughts on Acts 1:8, but by the time I got the first one typed, for the life of me I couldn't remember what the second one was.

I just got up to go get something out of the refrigerator and when I got there I couldn't remember what I went in there for -- but for some reason I suddenly remembered my second thought about Acts 1:8.

No comments from the peanut gallery, SOTL ...

Back in the days of missions organizations (remember those?), the story was told of a young lady with very impressive credentials who went before the Foreign Mission Board for an interview in view of an appointment to an overseas missionary job. After reviewing her grades from her Baptist college and seminary, and discussing the finer points of reference letters written by her pastor and other well-respected individuals, one member of the board asked her the following question: "Young lady, what about your next door neighbors?"

"My next door neighbors? What about them?"

"Well, are they Christians?"

She stared back at him blankly, failing to see the correlation. "Sir, I have no earthly idea!"

To this, the wise old man closed her file and pushed it back just a bit. "Well, I suggest you go home and find out. Why should we send you around the world to do that which you will not do in your own neighborhood?"

allofgrace said...

The Great Commission is to "make disciples of all nations", not to alleviate suffering, though we should certainly be moved by the suffering of those around us and alleviate it as we are able. However if all we do is alleviate suffering, then we've accomplished nothing for the Kingdom. What your neighbor next door and your neighbor in Tibet needs most is the gospel. Without that, no matter how much suffering we alleviate, all we've done is help people go to hell well-fed, healthy, and warm. To fulfill the Great Commission, someone has to "go". "How shall they hear without a preacher?"...."so then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

oc said...

AOG, I agree. It's the Gospel everyone needs.
But if I fill your belly when it's hungry, you will more easily listen to the Good News I have to share with you.

sickofthelies said...

MJM,

Careful, :)

We might put you to work at the broom factory.

:)

J/K

allofgrace said...

Well, Christ fed many, healed many, etc....but many of those who ate and were healed walked away. Man's problem in hearing the gospel isn't in his belly, it's in his heart. He doesn't hear because he doesn't have ears to hear....he loves darkness rather than light. A spiritually dead man is just as dead with a full belly as he is with an empty one. Until God infuses spiritual life, he will remain dead, full belly or not. Feeding hungry people, caring for the sick, etc. are worthy goals, but the main thrust of missions, whether at home or abroad, is to carry the gospel to all peoples.

concernedSBCer said...

MJM: I am so with you on the memory thing!!! Sometimes I have to return to where I was standing to remember what I thought!

LOL

Back to regular programing!

oc said...

I know He fed many. I know He healed many. I know many walked away. So why did He bother?

BkWormGirl said...

Goodness OC - if we wait until our neighborhoods are perfect and fire less and all are saved then the rest of the world would never be a concern. I think God is pretty clear about that "don't be a respector of persons" thing. Every person is important, both at home, across the country, and around the world. Isn't that what is the point here? That ALL may have the opportunity to know HIM?

To all those who commented about my "friend" - she calls herself a friend of many on this blog - but still attends there. She really cannot understand why we will not let it go. I have resigned myself to this is simply an issue of living in the light or in darkness. Those who choose to live in the dark will never understand. I used to get very upset about it (I still do sometimes) but I have to keep reminding myself that how they choose to live is between them and God. I don't want to say I doubt their salvation (because I think there is a lot more to it than just where they go to church) but I question a person's relationship with God when the Spirit does not encourage them to leave a situation like BBC or when they do not leave at the Spirit's prodding. The situation at BBC (and churches like it) has caused many to stumble - I cannot believe that is "of God."

Well, this little book worm is heading to the bed. Night folks. Hope your dreams are filled with sweet blessings.

oc said...

I really don't know why everyone thinks I don't care about those in foreign lands. I've been getting hammered with that tonight. Listen, I do care.

But it sure is easier for me to pray for someone in China than to wipe the blood off my neighbor.

And that is all I was saying. I'm not going to explain it any further. If anyone wants to hate me for that, then go ahead, keep doing it.

BkWormGirl said...

Oh my OC - I walked in to shut the computer down for the night and saw your comments. I am sorry if it felt like I was "hating". That was most definitely NOT my intention.

You know me well enough to know that I hurt as much for the people in Tibet as your neighbor. The consequence of living in a fallen world is a painful reality, that must be surrendered to God daily. We as God's children can only reach out to those who are hurting, intercede for those in pain, and be the beacon of hope and love that the Spirit enables us to be.

Peace...
BKWG

gmommy said...

OC, honey.....there is no debate...it's all over now so ...it's over now.We understand your point.....gots it!!!!we're OK......eat some chocolate...yummie!!!!!
Deep breaths ....chill

Go to bed early....

I'm saying good night to all...don't let the bed bugs bite!!!!!

Scion said...

BkWormGirl said...

To all those who commented about my "friend" - she calls herself a friend of many on this blog - but still attends there. She really cannot understand why we will not let it go. I have resigned myself to this is simply an issue of living in the light or in darkness. Those who choose to live in the dark will never understand. I used to get very upset about it (I still do sometimes) but I have to keep reminding myself that how they choose to live is between them and God. I don't want to say I doubt their salvation (because I think there is a lot more to it than just where they go to church) but I question a person's relationship with God when the Spirit does not encourage them to leave a situation like BBC or when they do not leave at the Spirit's prodding. The situation at BBC (and churches like it) has caused many to stumble - I cannot believe that is "of God."


-Scion-
You know, my brother made a really good point recently.

There are many many people still at BBC that have been there for decades. They are strong Christians, God-fearing, and love the Lord. They are walking testimonies of His grace and power. And yet, after the PW scandal, the subsequent cover-up, and the "firings" of long-standing leaders such as JW, RM, and DS, these people are still attending BBC and wondering why we're not?

My brother pointed out that a lot of Christians are in the "comfort zone". There are a lot of families with 3+ generations at BBC. It's hard to uproot and move away, even if you don't agree with the leadership. It's easy to do the Christian thing, smile, and say that God has forgiven PW and SG, and so we should too, and put it all in the past, let it go, and forget about it. And to a point, I agree. We SHOULD forgive, because we are forgiven. But just because we forgive doesn't mean that we should let the wolves stay in the sheep pen. And if we can't remove the wolves, then it is time to get away from them. But I understand why so many people won't leave their "comfort zone." BBC has a lot of programs, activities, media, and other 'fluff' that keeps people entertained, distracted, lazy, and comfortable. And in today's society, entertainment is what everyone is looking for.

But anyway, before I ramble on too much...

The point is, most BBC members are in the comfort zone. But there are a lot of members, too, who weren't sickened by what they heard and saw because they have no concern for anyone else outside their own little world. All they saw was someone 'rocking the boat' and were determined to stop it. These are the people who sacrificed their own conscience years ago in the name of power, money, and a house in G-town. These are the smallest group of BBC members, but they contribute the largest amount of tithes and offerings to BBC. They are the reason that BBC is still able to meet it's financial obligations. These are the people who will never be swayed, changed, sickened, or broken by what they see and hear. These are the leaders of the church staff, the deacons, and every committee the church has. These are the wolves.

Those who are going to leave BBC have already left. Those who remain are the deaf, the blind, and the dumb.

32yrs@bbc said...

Scion,
Well said regarding the BBC comfort zone. Another element not mentioned: fear. There are some who are simply afraid - afraid to leave the familiar for the unknown.
And another: staying to make a difference. Which reminds me of a analogy Dr. Rogers gave many times:
"That's like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic." JMO

oc said...

In my zeal to drive home a point, I ran over several of my friends.
The carnage is inexcusable, unacceptable, and unChist-like.
I am ashamed and I am sorry.

concernedSBCer said...

Scion: Well said. Thanks.

Cakes said...

You're still awesome in my book, OC. Don't spend any time beating yourself up and live fully.

BkWormGirl said...

Oc -
I think I understand at some level where you were coming from. And I appreciate and applaud you for being willing to humble yourself before the blog group and apologize. For the record, I agree with your position that we must become more active in our local community. However, I also believe strongly that we must become more active in the world around us as well. The carnage and wreckage of sin is running rampant in the world, and there are plenty of wounded and hurting folks that we all could work 20 hours a day seven days a week and still not reach them all. Above all else, I hope we all walk away from this particular conversation with a renewed or increased passion to reach out to ALL who are in need of a touch from our Savior. The one person who is able to redeem all suffering and replace tears of sorrow with tears of joy.

Blessings to all,
BKWG

BkWormGirl said...

Okay Tiger Fans - What do we think about Allen being suspended?? I will say this, I already kind of like Coach Cal - and this only increased my opinion of him. You know suspending a player at this point is VERY difficult. I am glad he did not look the other way. (In the interest of fair disclosure: I can not say I am a real "Tigers" fan, but I am cheering for them to win over the weekend and next week.)

sickofthelies said...

Who is Allen and what did he do?

BkWormGirl said...

Andre Allen is one of the Tiger BBall players. All I know at this point is what I heard on the news. He has been suspended, he did not board the plane for Antonio, and he broke a "team rule."

You can read about it here: http://www.wreg.com/Global/story.asp?S=8110279

New BBC Open Forum said...

Link

gmommy said...

SOTL...
my sister....as clueless as I am!!!
When Lynn gave a report on the Tigers the other day...I was able to talk to a few people like I knew what was going on....
I was just repeating what Lynn said...but I was so impressive!

concernedSBCer said...

The talk on the Tiger blogs is that Allen failed a random NCAA drug test. Not sure if that is true...but what is true is that he will not be playing on Saturday. He has been a good reliever for Rose at point guard, However, while I like his tenacity, this should not affect the game unless the Tigers allow it to. The Tiger bench is 6 or 7 deep with good players all on the same level, or a little better, than Allen. I still believe they can win it all IF they play like they did last weekend. Allen played only a few minutes each game. Therefore, I really don't see that it will be a hardship. In fact....it could be used as a rallying cry to motivate.

Go Tigers!

(Saturday at 5:05 pm on CBS vs. UCLA)

(Okay SOTL and GMommy...now you are up to date!)

Back to regular programming!

gmommy said...

Gosh ConcernedSBCer,
You are a woman of MANY talents....
I am SO impressed.

watchman said...

The Church of Oprah exposed:

Over 2 million followers

CHURCH OF OPRAH EXPOSED

Lynn said...

There is speculation that Allen may be playing Monday if the Tigers make it to the championship game. I'm not going to pass judgement on Allen right now...you can fail a drug test just by overdoing it on drinking water and such (Diluted Sample). However, if it was because they found something, then Allen should not be allowed to play at all. I'd rather lose with honor than win with rule breakers.

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sickofthelies said...

But, but, shouldn't we just forgive Allen and let him play anyway?

Oh, wait, SG isnt' the coach.

Nevermind.

concernedSBCer said...

Gotta win Saturday first.

concernedSBCer said...

SOLT: Was it a mistake of the mind?

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gmommy said...

SOTL,
Maybe you are right.
After all, it was probably a mistake of the MIND and not of the HEART.
whatever that means!!!!!

Shoot..if ministers can stay in the pulpit when they sexually abuse children and vulnerable women and teens...
what's the big deal in letting this BB player stay in the game!!!!
How is that WORSE than what is being allowed to continue in the SBC churches.
More people will be outraged by a sports players drug use than they will a trusted pastor's perversion...go figure!!!

Maybe PP will change the wording in the Faith statement to say that since women don't cover their heads... all predator pastors are excused from any temptations they give in to...???

imaresistor said...

I hope that all of you will take the five minutes it will take and go to the link that watchman has posted. It isn't about baseball I'm afraid, but it is relavent to the Body of Christ.

concernedSBCer said...

Ima: sorry...we got a little off track. However, as much as I love you, I must tell you..... we are talking about basketball! :-)

Thanks...I'll check out the link.

imaresistor said...

My mistake...I suppose I am into spring training. Hope all you Tiger fans can forgive me.

watchman said...

Oprah and Eckhart Tolle do ' THE NEW AGE SHIFT "

Millions deceived to Antichrist

THE QUEENS NEW SUIT OF CLOTHES,YET ,NAKED AS A JAYBIRD

ezekiel said...

Deut 4: 24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Just goes to show you why we must read the word. Had Oprah been in the Word, the preachers sermon would have been understood. Instead, a simple word of truth was interpreted through a lens of man's feelings and thousands will die.

If it were Moses and the OT, they would run a spear through here to stay the plague.

But then looking at it that way....who sent the plague?

Man truly is without excuse. We have the written WORD and we have His testimony.

imaresistor said...

Ezekiel...

Exactly my thoughts...how totally out of context she took this scripture! And look at the hundreds of thousands are following her right into the fire!

"Man truly is without excuse. We have the written WORD and we have His testimony."

How right you are!

imaresistor said...

Watchman...this is a great blog. I haven't been there to read in quite a while, but checking this out just now...I see that I am going to have to spend some time today there reading.

I have a lot to learn about the 'Shift' and 'The Law of Attraction'...and we need to know these things. Things are moving at such a fast pace in the world of deception, it is unreal. We must, like your name, be watchmen. We will be held accoutable.

Ima

Cakes said...

Well,

I went to the link, Watchman, and I always wonder why folks are so eat up with vilifying others, Oprah or otherwise, to establish the superiority of their viewpoint.

Good thing that no one must fear eternal retribution for purple prose; I'm sure that's cool so long as one is on the right team. Analogies are not useful if they conflate one theme incongruously with another. I think many in the world--due to global communication, an increasingly multicultural society—feel the need to promote mutual respect and tolerance for diverse spiritual perspectives; and that strident belief systems, which pursue a “my way or the highway” approach spend an inordinate amount of energy trying to build their view by tearing down another. It ultimately is self-defeating to the ostensible goal of winning them.

This is not to critique the truthfulness of your spiritual viewpoint, just the method of painting individuals as bogeymen.

The best way to establish the solvency of you spiritual path is by the life you live, not to diminish that of others.

watchman said...

Cakes..
Thou speakest with forked tongue:

Jesus said: I am THE WAY, The TRUTH, and THE LIFE, No man cometh to the Father but by me.

In Oprahs' allegedly "tolerant" and "respectful" multicultural spiritual view, she accuses my Saviour and Lord Jesus of lying.

You agree with her disparagement of My LORD. That is anything but respect, that is hatred of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Cakes..you need to Repent and Believe The Gospel of The Only Begottren Son of The Living True God, as does Oprah.

Jesus tod THE TRUTH ..and IS ..THE TRUTH.

All Hail the King of Kings and Lord of Lords...

JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.

New BBC Open Forum said...

watchman,

Just a word of advice... you'll catch more flies with honey. Beating people over the head doesn't generally make them more receptive to the gospel.

watchman said...

Nbbcof:

Your misplaced loyalties are astonishing.

The Lord Jesus Christ is being openly maligned and lied about and His Word and Gospel are being openly maligned by Oprah and Cakes.

Yet, you find a ready defense of The Lord Jesus Christ and His WORD and Gospel as a " beating".

That ....is utterly fascinating, since even the Apostle Paul said: If any man or even an angel from heaven come to you with " another gospel " , other than that which we have preached, let him be "anathema", ( "damned to hell" ).

Would you then have similar criticisms ,counsel, or advice for Gods' Chosen Apostle Paul as well ?

Would you also chide the Apostle Paul to use more "honey" ?

I pray you would not...

Cakes said...

True Dat.

concernedSBCer said...

I have always felt that lifestyle evangelism worked better than yelling on a street corner....for me. God can certainly call some to shout the news from a street corner and will bless their obedience. Only a few times have I felt the Holy Spirit prodding me to scream from the street corner. Usually, I find that ministering to people shows God's Love and opens so many more doors. The thing is....we are supposed to be different from the world. Being honest and kind are good things. Integrity is a rare commodity.

That being said....I also am a very black/white person in that I see right and wrong pretty clearly and have no hesitation calling a spade a spade. Wishy-washy Christians don't help the Kingdom of God at all.

BUT.....it truly is all in the presentation. We as Christians can speak the truth but we must do it...scripturally....IN LOVE. Speak the Truth IN LOVE. There's the difference. :-)

oc said...

Watchman,
In a way, you and I seem to have the same problem. While what you and I have to say is the truth, our presentation of the truth really sucketh. Maybe we should dwell a little upon how the Apostle Paul presented the truth. I know, of all people, I have no right to correct anyone else concerning this matter. But I just thought maybe you can learn from my sin, so it wouldn't be such a waste.

Jussayin'.
oc.

imaresistor said...

Undoubtedly, you will remember Erwin McManus...he is a SBC pastor. He appeared on the front cover of Homelife a couple of years ago with his wife. They are promoting contemplative spirituality, mysticism, New Age...etc. He is considered to be among the top emergent leaders. His church is having a conference and one of the speakers is pointing people to follow the teachings of Eckhart Tolle.

Erwin McManus

Where is Frank Page?

imaresistor said...

Hi Cakes...

Now, you know that the majority of folks who post regularly on this blog are Christians. Our hearts get angry at the slightest hint of irreverance toward Jesus...you know that. Oprah is no exception...in my opinion, she is terribly dangerous to the cause of Christ. She has people eating out of her hand. I am amazed that the network is allowing her to do this. For something like this, she needs to move on over to TBN or the likes. She could line right up with the likes of Benny Hinn. Carrying this on a major network is giving it tremendous credibility in my opinion. This is deception at the highest level.

I am trying my hardest to remember what your belief system is...I know it isn't Christian. What was it?

It is good to see you back on the blog!

Cakes said...

"You agree with her disparagement of My LORD. That is anything but respect, that is hatred of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

I don't remember ever saying anything of the kind; I do remember, on numerous occasions, encouraging people to embrace and deepen their faith, even if it is not my own. That may seem like a contradiction to one who holds to a singular religion.

I try to be measured in speech but if I offended you, I apologize. You seem like a very nice person and thanks for the advice, but I've alreaddy got an ethos--in order to be happy, one must first withdraw from agony and bitterness; compassion is more important than dogma; don't sweat the unknown.

If I was disparaging anything, it's that tortured prose and the notion that those folks obviously have so much time on their hands so as to post endlessly about the evils of some celebrity. I don't know jack about Oprah, and probably never will, since I don't watch much television.

I think it is well established that, just because a text quotes scripture, that doesn't make the exposition holy writ.

watchman said...

To my Blessed detractors:

Your clever use of mens' words change not a thing of what I unashamedly declared unto those who could support megastars who openly attack, snidely and smeeringly mock and openly pervert the only Saving Gospel of My Lord and My Saviour , The Lord Jesus Christ.

I absolutely seek no TEMPORAL phony merit badges from those who can apparently find Unbiblical Koinania with those who tolerate OPEN blasphemy of My LORD , His Word , and His narrow and singular Gospel.

Your predictable name-calling is part of the package deal for those who believe they should be earnestly contending for The Faith.

Thanks for the rich Blessing.

gmommy said...

Cakes said....
This is not to critique the truthfulness of your spiritual viewpoint, just the method of painting individuals as bogeymen.

The best way to establish the solvency of you spiritual path is by the life you live, not to diminish that of others.


Watchman said....
You agree with her disparagement of My LORD. That is anything but respect that is hatred of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

and....
The Lord Jesus Christ is being openly maligned and lied about and His Word and Gospel are being openly maligned by Oprah and Cakes.

Gmommy responds,
Watchman,
While I do respect your devotion and passion for OUR Lord…I don’t respect the way you put words in others mouths.
Cakes NEVER said or implied what you posted. You’ve been on this blog long enough to know that Cakes is very welcome and much loved. HE is a friend to many of us and kind to all.

If the way you spoke to Cakes is the way you usually share Christ...I encourage you to check your heart.

I find it sad that Cakes apologized to you and he only expressed his opinions…which we do here on this blog.
You have always been treated with respect by the regular bloggers unless you have become angry and personally attacked people who don’t share your platform.

Please…share your opinions and thoughts and scripture but you help no one and certainly not the cause of Christ when you get into a mean tizzy.

Did you notice how Ima spoke????? I know she has a high regard for what you share…but she doesn’t make it a point to attack others.

Say whatever you want to me …..run away for a while like you have done before when your temper flared up.
Cakes is a cherished friend…loved by myself, many on this blog, and by MY LORD.
Your personal attacks serve absolutely no good purpose.

imaresistor said...

Eph 5:11 "Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them"

Our responsiblity does not stop with our own personal rejection of darkness/evil, but extends to exposing/opposing it wherever it is found.

OC...you say that possibly the problem lies within yours and Watchman's presentation of truth. I would allow that perhaps it could even be in one's perception. You are being too hard on yourself. I didn't hear anyone hollering.

Cakes...you say, "folks obviously have so much time on their hands so as to post endlessly about the evils of some celebrity." I would say to that...it is my responsibility to expose the evil/darkness of one, regardless of who they are or where I find it. It is notable, however, that one such as Oprah Winfrey gathers such an audience, I find it a greater deception because she has thousands upon thousands of people to deceive, thus winding their paths to hell.

This is said with love and may we all pray diligently for Oprah Windrey, Eckhart Tolle, and Marianne Williamson to be specific.

oc said...

Watchman said:
"To my Blessed detractors:

Your clever use of mens' words change not a thing of what I unashamedly declared unto those who could support megastars who openly attack, snidely and smeeringly mock and openly pervert the only Saving Gospel of My Lord and My Saviour , The Lord Jesus Christ.

I absolutely seek no TEMPORAL phony merit badges from those who can apparently find Unbiblical Koinania with those who tolerate OPEN blasphemy of My LORD , His Word , and His narrow and singular Gospel.

Your predictable name-calling is part of the package deal for those who believe they should be earnestly contending for The Faith.

Thanks for the rich Blessing."


OK. I know I need to let it go. But I can't help it, I just have to ask...What name calling? Detractors? Are you sure you are posting on the right blog???

oc said...

In Acts 17:16 and following. Paul reasoned in the synagogues and the market place. That "reasoning" with others gave him the opportunity to preach the Mars Hill Sermon in Athens. He pounded no one with the Gospel. But he sure gave it, and gave it well whenever the opportunity made itself available. And he made sure he was ready for those opportunities.

Just a thought.

Cakes said...

This is the crux--I am a spiritual person, yet I am completely at ease with the unknown, death and what have you. Faith is so intimate that to monkeywrench consensus or complicity is to perpetuate suffering, which I eschew.

I never came here to lead anyone to hell or cause the kind of sniping I've generated on this thread; on the other hand--no matter how you may view the nature of, or danger to, my immortal soul--I do not percieve myself as wanting, or a project.

I am simply y'all's friend.

oc said...

IMA said:
"OC...you say that possibly the problem lies within yours and Watchman's presentation of truth. I would allow that perhaps it could even be in one's perception. You are being too hard on yourself. I didn't hear anyone hollering."



oc says:
No one who loves me, including you, my dear and most gracious friend, ever hollers at me. Maybe because they know that if they holler, I am defiant enough to not listen. But I will admit, you and others have whispered in my ear, just like He does. And that whisper has echoed throughout my soul.

Just wanted to let you know that you've made a difference in this man.

New BBC Open Forum said...

A "project"? Now, that's funny!

Cakes said...

Yes, very.

Anyone ever had a Mortons Neuroma? My foot is killing me.

New BBC Open Forum said...

No, but my mother did, so I know it's a very painful condition. I'm sorry. I hope it lets up and that you don't have to have surgery.

New BBC Open Forum said...

THERE'S A NEW TOPIC IF ANYONE'S INTERESTED.

imaresistor said...

OC...I am humbled by your remarks. And blessed. Thank you...

imaresistor said...

Cakes said, "Anyone ever had a Mortons Neuroma? My foot is killing me."

Comment: I am your girl Cakes! I have had a Morton's Neuroma on my left foot. There is considerable pain with this...excrutiating at times. I could go on and on with this, but the bottom line is this: the only way to permanently overcome this problem/pain is to have the surgery. Get it done and get it behind you. Make sure you get a very good doctor...that is the most important thing. I am so sorry for you...I know firsthand how much this hurts.

New BBC Open Forum said...

ima,

You're correct that surgery is the only "cure" for this condition. I was just trying to be a source of encouragement to "cakes"! So much for being encouraging. :-(

imaresistor said...

nbbcof...

You are a good friend to offer your encouragement and I am sure that Cakes appreciates it.

concernedSBCer said...

You know what is so special about this blog? We have some who whisper, some who yell, some who believe the same, some who don't. Yet there is (usually) a respect and kindness for each other, and a forgiveness when we forget.

We are friends.