Sunday, January 27, 2008

Words Cannot Describe This!



"Gopher" posted a comment to the previous thread that was too important to bury in the comment section. This should stand alone -- and plainly illustrates just how far Bellevue Baptist Church has fallen. I watched these videos with a mixture of disbelief and sadness. Some questions that come to mind include:

1. Are Bellevue interns paid? If so, for what?

2. Am I the only one who is very uncomfortable with the sanctuary and our Lord being disrespected in the manner depicted in the first "kidnapping" video?

3. Were these videos produced while the interns and staff members were supposed to be working?

4. Can you imagine Dr. Rogers and Jim Whitmire participating in something like this?

5. Was this supposed to be funny?

Regarding the sign on Steve Gaines' desk... a picture's worth a thousand words.

And here are the videos...


Kidnapped Part 1

Kidnapped Part 2

There was a 2006 version, too. Kidnapping, this time at gunpoint, seems to be a theme of sorts.

Thanks to "gopher" for this topic idea.

406 comments:

1 – 200 of 406   Newer›   Newest»
New BBC Open Forum said...

gopher,

You had this link in your "wizard" comment. That's surely an oldie but goodie; however, I believe this is the one you wanted.

New BBC Open Forum said...

This one is equally ridiculous.

gmommy said...

I'm just confused!!!!!
What the heck are we watching and why????
Does this have anything to do with the sermon???

New BBC Open Forum said...

The videos have absolutely nothing to do with any sermon. They were made by the Bellevue interns.

As for the point of the videos, I'm as lost as you on that one! Those are the most painfully stupid things I've seen in a long time. How far Bellevue has sunk.

Tonight's sermon wasn't as bad as I expected. Sheep armor was not needed. :-)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Steve must have borrowed that sign from David Coombs.

BkWormGirl said...

Well there is fifteen minutes of my life I will never be able to get back. When they were panning the congregation I thought it seemed pretty empty, until I realized sadly enough, that while that church SHOULD be that empty with SG at the top - it isn't.

Frankly, I just find the entire thing to be a bit weird. I don't mind interns doing a skit video. I guess that is pretty common among youth departments. But it just seemed pointless!

Jamie's desk sign was just arrogant. And even for a video, in light of all that has taken place, SOMEONE should have had the since to not let that sign be on SG's desk. And frankly him talking about investigations -- that's kind of silly too.

Frankly, those video's were disturbing. I wonder if parents are watching those video's? But then again, if keeping a pedophile on staff wasn't disturbing... seriously, do any of us really think the video's would be disturbing?

Strange... I find it all so very strange.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Does anyone know if those brainless wonders are paid?

New BBC Open Forum said...

I meant the interns.

BkWormGirl said...

They always have been.

gmommy said...

I think I remember that my daughter was paid when she was an intern

BkWormGirl said...

You know I am not sure I totally blame the interns. They are supposed to be LEARNING from those wiser and more distinguished in the field. It seems they are more a reflection of the leadership more than anything else. How sad for them when they get to another church who does not find this kind of shenanigans humerus.

Is the intern video of past summer's interns? I thought a couple of those families had left BBC now.

New BBC Open Forum said...

bkwormgirl wrote:

"You know I am not sure I totally blame the interns. They are supposed to be LEARNING from those wiser and more distinguished in the field. It seems they are more a reflection of the leadership more than anything else."

Good point. When you consider that Steve Gaines, Jamie Parker, Ryan Wingo, and Mark Blair all played roles... the only way you could tell the adults from the kids was that the adults were larger and looked older.

I think that's why it's so painful to watch. Kids will be kids, but the adults are supposed to set an example for the kids, not act like them. This is the second example we've seen of poor leadership and lack of judgment coming from the Bellevue staff in the past week. Why do I get the feeling this is just the tip of the iceberg?

32yrs@bbc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
concernedSBCer said...

I just finished watching the two videos. I agree with bkworm girl, 15 minutes gone forever!

I think I have a take on it. There was much angst and unhappiness this year among students and parents with the Tree. Solos, like "No Room," that girls have aspired to sing since 6th grade, were removed. Old traditions were changed. There was much unhappiness and I understand from friends that the Tree was not a happy place this year. I think it's a jab at that unrest.

I do commend some of the players for being able to laugh at themselves rather than be super-stuffy. I think that was probably taken a little too far in this video because it took it, I thought, from teasing to mockery. It had an "in-your-face" quality.

concernedSBCer said...

I guess I did a poor job of answering the questions that were posed:

1. I think they are paid. One intern had on a wedding ring. Maybe some are seminary students? I know personally some interns in the music department and they were paid around minimum wage and just did go-for type tasks.

2. Using the sanctuary was disrespectful, but since the whole point was the Tree fiasco, I guess that was the reasoning behind it.

3. Does look that way.

4. I can see Dr. Whitmire participating in something similar because he was always so good-natured with the kids. I'm not sure that respect would have allowed anyone to ask Dr. Rogers to participate.

5. Yes, I think it was supposed to be funny. I think it's more silly than anything else.

amazed said...

NBBCOF--The awful videos that were shown each Sunday, in church, with Webb Williams and the other guy, running around in a golf cart,was just as demeaning as the current videos.

During the Clinton administration, a remark was made that the White House was suffering from a lack of adult supervision. The same can be said of BBC.

Lin said...

Welcome to seeker mega world. This kind of thing is going on in every seeker mega in the country. yes, I can generalize.

Too much time, too much money...add to that grown men who never grew up and sprinkle in some interns and you have the basic recipe.

Problem is that there seemed to be a need for a 'new' video or skit every month for staff meetings where I was. You would not believe the amount of time spent on entertaining the staff.

Did I ever mention that the big boss man (not the pastor but the staff 'COO') spent three months working on 'wall words' for his office and hall? They were motivational sayings he was decorating his office with. And they had to be just the right 'font', size and color. One paid graphic designer spent 3 months on this and made hundreds of changes.

I could give you hundreds of examples. But I will just ask how Gaines can preach a sermon about 'robbing God' and have the nerve to allow this. The time, the resources spent on somthing like this are huge. They will say it is not but I know different. Just the editing of this took hours.

Send them out to street witness, instead.

BTW: Most interns are paid in mega's. the hope is to get on staff. And why not? You don't really have to work very hard.

My guess is that the videos will soon disappear.

They only brought back memories for me of what I saw every day and how spiritually desolate and vapid these churches have become.

concernedSBCer said...

Lin: You hit the nail on the head when you said this: "Too much time, too much money...add to that grown men who never grew up and sprinkle in some interns and you have the basic recipe."

Lynn said...

concernedSBCer said...

I just finished watching the two videos. I agree with bkworm girl, 15 minutes gone forever!

I think I have a take on it. There was much angst and unhappiness this year among students and parents with the Tree. Solos, like "No Room," that girls have aspired to sing since 6th grade, were removed. Old traditions were changed. There was much unhappiness and I understand from friends that the Tree was not a happy place this year. I think it's a jab at that unrest.

I do commend some of the players for being able to laugh at themselves rather than be super-stuffy. I think that was probably taken a little too far in this video because it took it, I thought, from teasing to mockery. It had an "in-your-face" quality.

6:55 AM, January 28, 2008

These videos have been done, even when Dr. Rogers was still around. I remember one video was played on a weekend retreat up at Pickwick with some "tips" about dealing with roommates. And in it, they actually made fun of me in one bit. What happened was, a few months prior on a trip to Gulf Shores, I had asked one of my roommates on the trip to put some sunblock on my back. Mind you, I by no means look like one of those dudes on Baywatch or anything. Anyways, they poked fun at that in this video. While I did think it was funny to an extent, I also felt humiliated and embarassed about it. So for them to still do these classless videos is no surprise to me.

concernedSBCer said...

Oh, btw......the song they start out singing (and making fun of) is a precious song about a little boy buying his Mom a present before she dies. That's not funny to mock it either.

concernedSBCer said...

Lynn: Teasing is a fine line, isn't it? This did cross WAY over to mockery. Mockery is NEVER cool.

Lynn said...

Good Grief! I just watched 30 seconds of the first video.

Where is Simon Cowell when you need him? These interns are HORRRRRRRRRRRIBLE as Bill Walton would say.

I just got called by PETA for subjecting my dog Grizz to this bad singing.

Lynn said...

concernedSBCer said...

Lynn: Teasing is a fine line, isn't it? This did cross WAY over to mockery. Mockery is NEVER cool.

10:08 AM, January 28, 2008

Yeah. I've had my share of all sorts of harassment growing up...from the teasing to mockery to even physical assault. Its totally uncool. And people wonder why I appear cranky at times lol.

Lynn said...

BTW, the 2nd part of the video got pulled off of You Tube.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Not to worry, Lynn. It will be back up -- somewhere -- this afternoon. :-)

sickofthelies said...

When I watched the interns make a mockery out of the reverent song about Mary's baby boy, my heart hurt for Jesus.

For anyone that thought that was cute, ask yourself this question:

What would you have thought if you had turned on your TV to see someone on a comedy show doing that?

Do you think it's different just because it was done in a church?

The fact that it was done in a church makes it worse, not better!!!

How does this set us apart from the world?

If they had performed that in my presence, I would have saturated the place with my absence.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Open Finances Help Baptists Keep Peace

What a contrast!

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
Open Finances Help Baptists Keep Peace

What a contrast!


From the article re: Two Rivers church:

The restaurant charges are still under dispute. The plaintiffs want the actual receipts, to prove the meals were legitimate church expenses, said Mark Freeman, the plaintiffs' attorney.

The church's lawyer, Larry Crain, refuses to budge. "It would take an order from the Supreme Court to turn over those expenses," he said.

A meal at The Palm was a "counseling session" and is protected under clergy-penitent privilege, Crain said.



Oh, PUH-leeeeze!

New BBC Open Forum said...

To whom it may concern:

Read the rules, please. No visible profile, no comment. Even a kid such as yourself should be able to do that!

NBBCOF

sickofthelies said...

I can remember in one of Dr. Roger's sermons, he made this statement:

" That which you laugh at, you will never take seriously again."

Now, apply that to the " Mary Did You Know" skit.

Interns, please repent..if you showed that clip to the children in your charge, you need to go before them and tell them that you sinned. Your job is to HELP them in their faith, not tear it down and make it a joke. Have you caused them to stumble?

What if they go to school and decide to make fun of the birth of Jesus in such a manner? Is this your goal for these children?

My heart has been heavy all afternoon. I still cannot believe my eyes..I cannot believe that at BBC the leaders would condone a skit making fun of the birth of our Savior.

Did any of you interns ever know Dr. Rogers? What do you think he would say if he saw that skit?

Guys, I'm all about having a good time ( just ask the people who attended my Hootenanny in December) but this has crossed the line.

New BBC Open Forum said...

The links to the videos in the topic heading are working now.

BennyLava said...

are you serious?!! do you kids really have nothing better to do than to start criticizing the youth interns? i do believe you have gone a bit far. you have obviously lost touch with your childhood and sense of humor and are equally out of touch with the children growing up in todays culture. the majority of today's kids are as complacent and jaded as ever due to every day images and experiences. they are taught there is no God, that abstinence will lead to social isolation, and that drugs and alcohol can be rationalized in a "i'm only young once" mentality. all this leads to a mindset where church is the last place they want to be... a whole bunch of stuffy old people, with too many rules, upturned noses, and no fun. i appreciate all that our youth ministers and youth interns do. they try hard to reach the unchurched and retain the churched. did you know that after high school graduation, only 18% of kids who went to church will continue to do so? so cool your keyboard and realize that a entire generation will soon be lost... and how many more after them? i take my relationship with Jesus Christ very seriously and enjoy the serious aspects of it... but i also love the freedom and fun it allows. and as somebody who no longer can enjoy the spiritual feeding at bellevue... i can honestly say you have no idea how good you have it.

Lily said...

Response to the intern videos:
they apparently never learned an important lesson
R - E - S - P - E - C - T. And more particularly, the respect for the holiness of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This can also be said of SG's sermon on Sunday night. The matter of respect was the first thing that came to mind when he spoke of "casual dressing".

For a long time, I for one had great difficulty feeling 'okay' about wearing pants to the Lord's house. Since I do not own anything else, I have finally been able to get past the thoughts that I was inappropriately dressed when I arrived in pants.

The last few months I attended BBC, I was appalled at the 'nekkedness' I observed. Once again, it is a matter of respect. Would you come into the House of the Lord dressed so scantilly that it resembles the night clubs of South Beach? Not if the Holiness of our Saviour is taught and upheld in all areas.

I am sorry if I have jumbled my thoughts, but I am so sick of the total lack of RESPECT when it comes to the great I AM.

Lynn said...

BennyLava said...

are you serious?!! do you kids really have nothing better to do than to start criticizing the youth interns? i do believe you have gone a bit far. you have obviously lost touch with your childhood and sense of humor and are equally out of touch with the children growing up in todays culture. the majority of today's kids are as complacent and jaded as ever due to every day images and experiences. they are taught there is no God, that abstinence will lead to social isolation, and that drugs and alcohol can be rationalized in a "i'm only young once" mentality. all this leads to a mindset where church is the last place they want to be... a whole bunch of stuffy old people, with too many rules, upturned noses, and no fun. i appreciate all that our youth ministers and youth interns do. they try hard to reach the unchurched and retain the churched. did you know that after high school graduation, only 18% of kids who went to church will continue to do so? so cool your keyboard and realize that a entire generation will soon be lost... and how many more after them? i take my relationship with Jesus Christ very seriously and enjoy the serious aspects of it... but i also love the freedom and fun it allows. and as somebody who no longer can enjoy the spiritual feeding at bellevue... i can honestly say you have no idea how good you have it.

10:35 PM, January 28, 2008

My sense of humor is just fine. However, there is a fine line between humor and complete disrespect. The videos not only disrespect Jesus, the videos disrespect those who disagree with Gaines.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hmmm... and which intern might you be, "bennylava"? This one? Or this one? Or maybe this one or perhaps this one? Three of those are seminary students! Or might you be a former intern?

You know, I was thinking about those videos today, and I wondered if I would have found them funny if I were in the 6th grade. The answer was "absolutely not." I wouldn't have found that funny at any age, and believe me, I have a keen sense of humor.

But that's what it's all about, isn't it? Fun. My childhood may be a distant memory for me, but you, sir, need to grow up.

gmommy said...

Lily,
I'm with you on respect...especially in the area of dressing for church.

I was not raised by educated or sophistcated people but I appreciate today more than ever that I was taught that being clean, MODEST, and neatly dressed was not only having respect for myself but for others....and appropriate for worship.

I don't want to see all of the "visual aids" so available at church and in the world today.Talk about TMI!!!!

I explained to one of the neighbor girls that went to BBC (this was 4-5 years back) how distracting her "nekkedness"was to young men.
Young people don't seem to understand healthy boundaries or respect.
You don't have to go out in the world somewhere to figure that out.

sickofthelies said...

Bennylava,

Do you think that teaching the kids to disrespect the birth of our savior is going to solve the problems?

The skit about ' Mary Did You Know' was anything BUT funny..It was so offensive, I don't even know where to start.

Some of the stuff ya'll did was funny...a waste of time, perhaps, but it was silly and funny..

You crossed the line when you made fun of the birth of our Savior. It almost made me cry..I sat there watching it with disbelief.

You obviously disagree with what Dr. Rogers said:

' That which you laugh at, you will never take seriously again'

Is this what you want for the youth?

It's what you are going to get when you mock the birth of our Savior.

sickofthelies said...

Disrespecting Jesus isn't going to make our youth chaste.

Disrespecting Jesus isn't going to make our youth not drink or do drugs.

Disrespecting Jesus is not going to save an entire generation.

In a previous post, this was stated by Bennylava:

" all this leads to a mindset where church is the last place they want to be... a whole bunch of stuffy old people, with too many rules, upturned noses, and no fun"

Let me remind you that those "rules" you refer to are straight from the Bible...they are a guide to how we should live..or have you now decided that we should toss those out or perhaps amend them to fit the twentyfirst century?

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I am old, but i am NOT stuffy, and I certainly do not have an upturned nose...and everyone that knows me that i am ALL ABOUT having fun...

But mocking Jesus is NOT fun! And it is NOT funny!

New BBC Open Forum said...

"... everyone that knows me that i am ALL ABOUT having fun... "

Boy, ain't that the truth!

all2jesus said...


amazed said...
During the Clinton administration, a remark was made that the White House was suffering from a lack of adult supervision. The same can be said of BBC.


Interesting that you should say that. Watching these pathetic videos (that they had time to dream them up, let alone shoot them, speaks volumes), reminded me of an equally bad parody video produced by Bill Clinton's staff in his final days starring him, no less. If he couldn't conduct himself with dignity, he should have at least had some respect for the highest office in the land, but to him it was all a big joke. Hey, but at least we could rejoice that he was on his way out...

New BBC Open Forum said...

It's past your bedtime, children. Good night.

Reject.

Reject.

Reject.

'Night!

32yrs@bbc said...

and as somebody who no longer can enjoy the spiritual feeding at bellevue... i can honestly say you have no idea how good you have it.

10:35 PM, January 28, 2008
===================================
I have read and re-read the above and I don't have a clue. Is he/she the somebody who no longer enjoys spiritual feeding @BBC - or is he/she referring to those who left.
"I honestly say you have no idea how good you have it" seems to contradict the whole of his/her comment supporting the inane videos. So is he/she agreeing that now we have left, we have no idea how good we have it? Just asking for clarification.

Another wise saying of Dr. R's:
"We now have a generation that is laughing its way to hell." Not that I think that is true of the interns just that they are copying the world culture of whom that IS true.

Lin said...

"did you know that after high school graduation, only 18% of kids who went to church will continue to do so? "

Bennylava, You may want to dig a bit deeper on that statistic. Those kids who don't go to church after high school were involved in CHURCH YOUTH GROUPS.

gmommy said...

alltoJesus said....
If he couldn't conduct himself with DIGNITY, he should have at least had some RESPECT for the highest office in the land, but to him it was all a big joke.


Ahhh...
you hit the nail on the head!!!!
This is the BIG difference I see in general at BBC under the current leadership.
Besides ALL the things we could list...
the DIGNITY has left the building....the position....the BBC reputation, the calling....the ethics...the position of pastor...all of that and more!!!!

this has been my observation since BBC began all the uncontrolled standing ovations, the annoncement of JW's retirement on the same day the Parkers were brought up, the spontanious breaking into song, the boasting at the seminary over "shutting the meeting down"....the list is endless...
No dignity, No respect,No accountability, No reverence for a Holy God.

amazed said...

NBBCOF--Tonight, CBS national news at 5:30 is to have a segment on the lavish life style of a well known television preacher. Sure would be nice if you could capture the video and post it on here.

concernedSBCer said...

GMOMMY said: "I was not raised by educated or sophistcated people but I appreciate today more than ever that I was taught that being clean, MODEST, and neatly dressed was not only having respect for myself but for others....and appropriate for worship."

Can I just say this: AMEN!!!!

My momma always said you were never too poor to buy a bar of soap. The new "grunge" look doesn't seem to me to be self-respecting or respectful of who you represent.

concernedSBCer said...

SOTL: Your 11;19 post was RIGHT ON. Some of it could be classified as silly....waste of time, yes, waste of money, yes, but silly. I was offended by the laughing of the "shoe" song right off. Then the making fun of the Gabriel/Mary/Joseph trio was just nuts. That moment in history CHANGED history. It deserves reverence.

Bottom line....they were openly mocking the tradition of Tree (that has lead many to our Savior), they were mocking those who dared hold to tradition and worst of all, they were mocking the story of our Savior.

Bennylava, if you can't see and understand that, I would encourage you to go study your Bible instead of playing solitaire on the computer.

Junkster said...

Bennylava said ...
and as somebody who no longer can enjoy the spiritual feeding at bellevue... i can honestly say you have no idea how good you have it.


32yrs@bbc said...
I have read and re-read the above and I don't have a clue.


Junkster says...
I took that to mean the person used to be at BBC but is not there now and misses it. Like "I am someone who is no longer able to be at Bellevue and enjoy the spiritual feeding there, so I can say you don't know how good you have it there."

concernedSBCer said...

Now, now, SOTL.....we need to be careful.....if everyone knew how much fun our bowling parties are, everyone would want to come!

And it's amazing......we laugh until we hurt WITHOUT mocking our Savior or His Word.

Imagine that.

sickofthelies said...

Ask yourself this question:

DOES IT HONOR GOD?

If the answer is NO, don't do it!!!

There is NO defense for the " Mary
Did You Know" mockery...Did it honor God?

If you guys think that mocking God is going to bring your 6th graders to Christ..you are sadly mistaken.

I wonder how Paul, traveling thousands and thousands of miles in the first century managed to bring people to Jesus without silly videos that mocked his savior.

JESUS IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND TOMORROW!!!!!

James said...

Get the Family Together

If you love someone, you care very deeply about the things they care about. If something is important to one you love, it is important to you.

Did you know that unity in the family of God is very, very important to Jesus? It is so important to Him that in the garden shortly before the soldiers arrived to arrest Him, Jesus prayed that we would be one just as He and His Father are one. Here's what He prayed:

"I'm praying not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me because of them and their witness about me. The goal is for all of them to become one heart and mind- Just as you, Father, are in me and I in you, so they might be one heart and mind with us. Then the world might believe that you, in fact, sent me. The same glory you gave me, I gave them, so they'll be as unified and together as we are- I in them and you in me. Then they'll be mature in this oneness, and give the godless world evidence That you've sent me and loved them in the same way you've loved me." (John 17:20-23, The Message)


Sadly, you don't have to hang out at church more than a few minutes to realize that we are not one. In fact, the Body of Christ couldn't be more disunited. We're fragmented into hundreds of denominations, and even within those denominations the members can't even agree on the smallest things.

I am absolutely convinced the disunity of the Body is the devil's proudest accomplishment in the last two thousand years. Think about it: If you were the devil, how would you go about making sure the world didn't come to know Jesus? He can't discredit the Savior; He is blameless and spotless. He can't discredit God's word; it is truth without mixture of error. He can't discredit the message of the Gospel; it is the power of God unto salvation. So what's the devil to do to slow the spread of the Gospel? He went after the weakest link in the chain - us.

The devil is a liar, but he's not stupid. If he can get you and me arguing and fighting with each other we'll be so busy going after each other we won't take the time to tell others about Jesus. And that is precisely what he has done so successfully for most of the last two thousand years.

Here's the truly heartbreaking part- We've been separated for so long and the divisions run so deep that most of us have a great distrust for anyone who proposes unity among the various factions of the Body of Christ. I might have to admit that you are my brother in Christ, but if you adhere to a different belief than me about when in the course of history Jesus is going to return or whether or not a gift of the Holy Spirit is still valid today, I can't worship with you, I can't fellowship with you, I can't work together with you to win our city for Christ, and in a lot of cases I will preach against you in my pulpit. God help us! No wonder the world looks at us and decides they don't want what we claim to possess!

If you look at the disunity in the church and consider how many hundreds of years it took us to become this fractured, it is so easy to give up hope. There's no way we can ever put this back together again. We can't even get 10 people in our church to agree, how can we even dare to think the Body of Christ can ever be united this side of eternity?

But I still believe in and serve a miracle-working God! A God who spoke the universe into existence with the power of His Word. A God who time and time again has done the impossible. The Bible tells us in no uncertain terms that nothing is impossible for God. And in the Garden hours before He died for you and me Jesus prayed - not that you and I would agree on everything, but that we would be one.

God, get your family together again!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hint: If you young geniuses would like to post comments, please make your profiles visible. Otherwise, your comments will be rejected.

Surely you computer-saavy Einsteins can figure that out!

NBBCOF

Mike said...

O.K.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you. And I neglected to thank you for your previous words of encouragement.

From: Noidlewords
To: sheep_notastepford
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:16 PM
Subject: What is the point of the blog?

I have been following the blog for the past two years and have yet to see one good thing come from the comments I have read. I now see where you have branched out to stir up trouble at other church also (FBC Jax.) So what is the point of this blog? Has it just become a place to gossip? Some of the comments I read are still discussing issues from over 2 years ago. I am a Christian of 44 years raised from birth in the church and I have never seen such dishonoring behavior. It appears to me and many others (who are not Christians) that the people on this site are more concerned about tradition, legalism, and saving Bellevue (whatever that means) than they are the real truth and reaching people for Jesus. I hope that if you continue to keep this blog site (and I wish you wouldn’t) that you would temper the comments of those who post and remind them of Matthew 12:36 “But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.”

Praying for Bellevue and all of the churches that preach the gospel.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I have been following the blog for the past two years and have yet to see one good thing come from the comments I have read."

Then the only question that comes to my mind is why have you continued to read it? It's interesting that you said you'd been following something for two years that had been in existence only a little over 13 months when you wrote that.

Lin said...

"So what is the point of this blog? Has it just become a place to gossip?"

See? here we go again. Anytime anything about a 'leader' that is negative and discussed is 'gossip'. If they carry a title, some people will follow them to the ends of the earth. Poeple love their earthly priests.

Can anyone see how easy it is going to be for the anti christ? All he has to say is: It is gossip. They are slanderers. People believe it!

They also believe that BBC is actually preaching the 'Gospel'. It is so sad they cannot see how badly Gaines mangles the scriptures to fit HIS current premise.

MOM4 said...

James said...
"I'm praying not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me because of them and their witness about me. The goal is for all of them to become one heart and mind- Just as you, Father, are in me and I in you, so they might be one heart and mind with us. Then the world might believe that you, in fact, sent me. The same glory you gave me, I gave them, so they'll be as unified and together as we are- I in them and you in me. Then they'll be mature in this oneness, and give the godless world evidence That you've sent me and loved them in the same way you've loved me." (John 17:20-23, The Message)

I do not have a copy of "The Message", but in all my years, by ALL my teachers, and in all my studies, the Lord has NEVER revealed this to me as unity with each other, rather to be ONE with Christ as He is One with the Father. If we are one with Christ, the world will see it as a testimony that we are His. No where in scripture does the Lord say that we are to be unified with each other at all costs. If you can find it, let's see it.

Mike said...

NBBCOF,

O.K. you got me on a technicality. It seems like two years considering BBCOF, Who Watches the Watchman, and Saving Bellevue, etc. I am not an avid reader but I check in periodically just to see if anything has changed. Obviously not. I love the people of Bellevue and would hope we could set an example for Christ.

all2jesus said...

James,

"Unity" has been the plea ever since the trouble at Bellevue began. The refrain is quite familiar by now. I do agree that we should "major in the Majors and minor in the Minors." We should not be divided by the color of the carpet or anything else not explicit in scripture.

But what about things that are? Can God's people be united in error? Should they? If a man rebels against the authority of scripture (e.g., Matt 18:15-17; 1 Tim. 3:1-7), lies to the congregation, scatters the sheep with utter disregard for their welfare (Jer. 23:1-4), allows wolves to roam among them (Acts 20:28-31) and beats them with arrogant, self-serving sermons designed only to fortify himself while shaming them (most recently Jan. 20, p.m.), should such a man be allowed to continue behind a pulpit? So what if he "preaches the word"? (1 Tim. 1:5-7)

Three times Jesus said to Peter, "Do you love me?" The command each time was the same: "Feed my sheep." We know that he who keeps Jesus' commands is the one who loves him. A pastor (shepherd) who rebels against them is by definition apostate. We are not called to be unified under such a one, but to deal with him as a son of disobedience (2 Cor. 10:4-6; Eph. 5:6-7).

New BBC Open Forum said...

mom4,

That's the Steve Gaines definition of "unity." He's repeated it the last two Sunday nights. It's become a mantra of sorts.

"We want people who will preserve the unity and the bond of peace."

Ummm... ummm... ummmmmm....

New BBC Open Forum said...

Steve Gaines on Unity.

This sermon was never posted in the BBC sermon archives.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Yesterday someone posted this, but since there was no visible profile, I didn't publish it. However, I think it's worth publishing as it illustrates a disturbing mindset that we see not only in the world but in the church today.

matt said...

"Wow. Don't you think we are overreacting? Videos are another medium to teach and entertain. These videos are obviously light-hearted and directed towards middle school students. It's humorous to them. Just because we don't think it's funny, does that make it stupid?

"I think it's great that Steve and Jamie can have fun and not take themselves too seriously. And is it wrong for students to have fun or to laugh? Does it matter if it's at church or at home? I believe our actions should be consistent at all times regardless of location. To say they shouldn't do this 'at church' creates a false ideal where we clean up our actions for church and are more lenient outside. We all agree that's not Biblical.

"You mention this being a waste of time for staff. Is it any less of a waste of time than searching and posting on message boards? What about slander? We are quick to throw up verses to back our agenda. What about James 4:11? By the way, in this passage, slander refers to criticizing with the intention of lowering other people's view of someone.

"Let's find greater injustices to champion! I've got one! 30,000 people died today because they didn't have food to eat. About 15 died while you were reading this. How can we learn to live with less so that others may live. Now that's a worthy discussion."


Reply: Just one question. Why, if it's all just good, clean fun did "BellevueStudents" pull those videos, which had been up for 2 and 3 weeks, respectively, within 12 hours after the links were posted here?

Lin said...

"Wow. Don't you think we are overreacting? Videos are another medium to teach and entertain. These videos are obviously light-hearted and directed towards middle school students. It's humorous to them. Just because we don't think it's funny, does that make it stupid? "

And what are middle school students to 'learn' from these videos? Please tell me as I am not smart (foolish?) enough to figure out the lesson.

Lin said...

"Let's find greater injustices to champion! I've got one! 30,000 people died today because they didn't have food to eat. About 15 died while you were reading this. How can we learn to live with less so that others may live. Now that's a worthy discussion."

Matt, take the interns out street witnessing. Or to a nursing home to minister to those dying. AFter all, they are in paid positions to 'learn' ministry.

Lin said...

"What about slander? We are quick to throw up verses to back our agenda. What about James 4:11? By the way, in this passage, slander refers to criticizing with the intention of lowering other people's view of someone."

OOO wee!
Another slander accusation!~ If the earthly priests can convince the sheep any truth that is negative about the leader is 'slander', he can do just about anything he wants!

Let's see, James 4 is about 'worldliness' which is what the video's were really promoting. but finding one verse to try and silence 'negative truth' does not negate all the other scripture on worldliness, false teachers, wolves, hirelings.

If the videos are no big deal. Why were they pulled from Youtube? Seems to me, someone is embarrassed enough to pull them.

gopher said...

matt said...

"Wow. Don't you think we are overreacting? Videos are another medium to teach and entertain."

Matt, please explain what are they trying to teach????



matt said...

"Let's find greater injustices to champion! I've got one! 30,000 people died today because they didn't have food to eat. About 15 died while you were reading this. How can we learn to live with less so that others may live. Now that's a worthy discussion."

Matt, you can start fixing this with Steve Gaines salary, but I don't think he'll go along.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Seems the Bellevue interns have been at "work" for some time now.

2006 Christmas Video

Interns at Work

Einstein Makes Coffee

Einstein Loads a DVD

The following were all promos for "Winter Camp." How is any of this in any way honoring to Christ? How would one know that it's a church camp they're promoting?

Out of Order

Ladies' Man

Another Ladies' Man

More Interns at Work

gmommy said...

AlltoJesus,
Thank you for your post!!! Very well said!!

The only thing I would like to add is a "remix" of JTB's post from another thread which further explains why there cannot and SHOULD NOT be "unity" between those that follow SG's teaching and those who desire to follow Christ and His Word

.....While Steve is preaching God's word....
using God's word to beat the sheep, or using it for your own purpose... falls under MISHANDLING God's word. That is SIN.

We must be faithful to God in all things. That includes exposing a wolf in sheeps clothing.

That has been done over and over.

You claim nothing has been accomplished by this blog.

You are so wrong. I look at it as we have been faithful to God in exposing sin in "the leadership" who are to be held to a HIGHER STANDARD. <---it is in the Bible. Go ahead and read it.

It hasn't always been done in the correct spirit, granted. But by exposing the problems,... I feel we have saved thousands of unsuspecting people from being mislead by Steve.

Not only have THOUSANDS left Bellevue,
Steve's speaking (money making endevors) schedule has dried up as well, saving many many more from his misuse of scripture, his rantings, and his warped ideas on church leadership.

... much has been accomplished by this blog. Most of it good.

In the end, when we all stand before the Lord Jesus to give an account of ourselves, He alone will judge and He alone will reward.

I didn't want to stand before Him to give an account on why I did nothing when I knew something was wrong. That is why I spoke out and why I left.

and gmommy adds,
that is why thousands have left the building on Appling Rd. but will not be silenced by or united with those that condone a Sr Pastor who does not obey God's Word or man's law or even practice common sense.

BkWormGirl said...

It finally dawned on me what is so disturbing about these video's. The "story line" of the video is a person who is upset about not getting a desired part in the Singing tree. As a result, he kidnaps a person. (SG orders an investigation to be done by less than qualified people - reminiscent of history is it not?) However, when the young kidnapper finds out that he kidnapped the wrong person, he feels sorry and sings a chorus with the others and all is fine and forgiven. Kidnapping is a crime. The very idea that a person could commit a crime and it just be dismissed because he feels bad is unacceptable. The "trauma" he caused his victim is not even mentioned. There are no legal ramifications. Uncharted waters I guess....

Haven't we already lived this story line? Hasn't this careless attitude gotten them into trouble before??? They truly have learned absolutely nothing! I always had hoped that while they were publicly defiant, maybe, behind closed doors they thought, whoooo, we need to really be careful and not do that again. But honestly, they did it again, and this time in some ways it is worse. Because just as before, they got some people (I know some students thought it was funny - and they think it is funny) to laugh at what is wrong.

sickofthelies said...

In this current " anything goes" atmosphere at BBC, what ELSE will they do to ' draw them in' ?

I know!! Since kids are prone to drink and do drugs, why not have a bar, and give away booze...and drugs...

That will SURELY get them in!

So let's just all sin in an effort to draw the kids into church so that they can sin there, and not out in the world.

ok, that works.

sickofthelies said...

mike said:

" I love the people of Bellevue and would hope we could set an example for Christ."

*****

Tell me, Mike...did you think that the interns mocking the birth of our savior sets an example for Christ?

Is it ok to mock Jesus, as long as you do it in a church?

Should we remain silent and just let it continue, rather than to speak up? Is it worse to see us not unified than it is to watch the disrespecting of our Savior?

Since anything goes now, and there are people like you who will condone this new attitude in the House of God, what's next?

When will YOU speak up? Where is YOUR line in the sand?

emptyseat said...

Mike,
If unity is your cry, have you asked Steve Gaines why he called one of Bellevue's finest Hezbollah early on?
If you are the pastor and trying to set the bar for unity, I guess you could look at today and say he succeeded.
Just my thoughts on your uninformed statement.
By the way, what would you have said if you had been a member of the temple when Jesus cleansed the Temple?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Last night a new poster with the screen name "BennyLava" chastised "us" as follows...

"are you serious?!! do you kids really have nothing better to do than to start criticizing the youth interns? i do believe you have gone a bit far. you have obviously lost touch with your childhood and sense of humor and are equally out of touch with the children growing up in todays culture. the majority of today's kids are as complacent and jaded as ever due to every day images and experiences. they are taught there is no God, that abstinence will lead to social isolation, and that drugs and alcohol can be rationalized in a 'i'm only young once' mentality. all this leads to a mindset where church is the last place they want to be... a whole bunch of stuffy old people, with too many rules, upturned noses, and no fun. i appreciate all that our youth ministers and youth interns do. they try hard to reach the unchurched and retain the churched. did you know that after high school graduation, only 18% of kids who went to church will continue to do so? so cool your keyboard and realize that a entire generation will soon be lost... and how many more after them? i take my relationship with Jesus Christ very seriously and enjoy the serious aspects of it... but i also love the freedom and fun it allows. and as somebody who no longer can enjoy the spiritual feeding at bellevue... i can honestly say you have no idea how good you have it."

Hint: Those big keys (there's one on each end of your keyboard) that say "Shift" on them will allow you to make the BIG letters! (Reminds me of our old friend, hisservant/4545.)

After two more new posters appeared using the screen names "FiveStar" and "AYNGARAN," I began to smell a rat. Googling "BennyLava" revealed more than I ever wanted to know! Does someone who "takes my relationship with Jesus Christ very seriously" really find this edifying? (Warning: There are lewd subtitles in this video.) Did all of you so admire this piece of "work" that you chose your screen names from it? (Watch it and you'll see where the other two screen names originated.)

Someone took a foreign video and added subtitles which is what he said he thought it sounded like in English. What could have been something (mildly) humorous (the song is not dirty in its original language) was instead turned into a piece of garbage by someone who chose some of the most filthy words and mental images imaginable. But apparently a lot of people, I'm guessing most of them young people, know about this video. It's gotten over 3 million hits since August.

Parents, wake up! "Benny's" right about one thing. We are out of touch with the children growing up in today's society. Is it any wonder we see the Bellevue interns acting like they do? Is it any wonder we see a young (but adult) youth minister using crude language on a church website? (I'm not sure how any of this explains the behavior of the adults who should be setting an example for them though.) They've become so desensitized to all the smut that's permeated our society that they think nothing of things like this.

I recently attended a get-together where several dozen parents and their teenage children were present. During a lull in the festivities some of the teenagers took to the stage and performed a popular dance to a rap song entitled Crank Dat Spiderman. Other than being a little over the top for my taste, I didn't think much of it, as I couldn't understand the words to it other than something about "Superman."

That was around the time the "Mo Money Taxes" commercials began airing around the clock, and they play the same catchy rap tune in those. Curious about the lyrics, I Googled "Superman" and "rap" until I found the song. Here are the lyrics. (Warning: More lewd content.) Needless to say I was shocked that these young teens, all from Christian families, would think this was an appropriate song to perform anywhere!

Apparently some of their parents had the same thought over the next day or so and researched the lyrics to the song as well. It turns out the kids didn't even know what they were singing nor did their parents. To them it was just a catchy song and a fun dance. I suppose they were lip-synching what they thought it sounded like. Some of the parents have since had some serious discussions with their children, but this just illustrates how out of tune many adults are today and how children can inadvertently get caught up in things like this.

Please, folks! If you're a parent or teacher or have any influence whatsoever on children, please educate yourselves. Find out what they're listening to. If you don't understand the lyrics, just Google for them. You may just be as surprised as a lot of us were!

And find out what your kids are doing online. Some of the kids' Facebook and MySpace pages I've seen would make a sailor blush!

concernedSBCer said...

A few things to think about:

Slander is a serious charge. One that I do not think would stand up in court in this situation.

I work 60+ hours a week. If I choose to spend SOME of my free time discussing ISSUES with my friends on this blog, that's my choice. That video showed interns playing computer games while they were supposed to be working. That is stealing. *See 10 COMMANDMENTS

The current definition of "Unity" seems to be "the process of agreeing with everything a leader says." Seems to me "brainwashing" is a better term for that action.

concernedSBCer said...

I am so glad many have been reading this blog because over the last 15 months we have discussed serious issues like child molestation, the purpose and necessity of current church by-laws, the integrity (or lack of) in the church at large, the CGM and PD activities among churches and the dangers involved in those activities, and struggles other churches are facing similar to BBC.

The thing is, Satan IS having a field day. Why? Because we, as a society, are lazy. We want our pastor to tell us what to think and believe in a nicely wrapped package on Sunday. We don't want to take the time to study on our own, research, pray, be quiet and listen. And it's cost us.

Parents don't want to be the parent because *gasp* their children MIGHT GET MAD AT THEM! What???? The respect of authority starts at home and if parents do not instill it, the children won't have it for authority figures at all. Authority figures like a teacher, a police officer, or a LORD and SAVIOR.

I think that's been made abundantly clear by some of the videos and comments we've seen.

My dear deceased pastor (not Dr. Rogers) said the following about church: "If it takes a circus to get them there, it will take a circus to keep them there." Where does the Bible say anything about a circus? It said the Word is sharper than a two-edged sword...it says be in the world but not of the world...... it says to love each other.......it says God is HOLY.......it says Abstain from all appearance of evil.....

My thought is that when we TRULY, seriously teach the BIBLE, the other pomp and circumstance (and silliness) will be unnecessary.

gmommy said...

OK...now I get the stupid videos the interns made....
they are just take offs on the worldly, mindless, pointless dirty ones from the world.

I was trying to make things too complicated!

the bar has been "raised" for the youth at BBC...
goes along with the dark rooms and fog machines ...and the lies told from the pulpit with no shame or repentance.

No thank you on the bogus "unity" call....

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lin said...

"Please, folks! If you're a parent or teacher or have any influence whatsoever on children, please educate yourselves. Find out what they're listening to. "

You bring up a great point and one I am dealing with everyday at a Christian private school.

It starts young.. this love for the popular culture. Christians think they can flirt with it, put a fish on it and make it Christian. but they can't. It is a snare and a trap that always leads us away from our first Love.

This is just my opinion and I would love to hear from other moms what they think. I see it starting young with parents thinking the newest kid thing is cute and shower their kids with it...be it a brand or Dora, Pricesses, whatever. Hannah Montana is the big thing now. Or High School Musical. (I am talking young kids...first grade)

Every birthday party is a Hannah Montana party. Well, she is a 'Christian' after all. (huh?) But, what do 7 year old girls have in common with this teen?

My daughter saw the show once at Grandpa's house cause he has cable and a tv. She was not sure what the big deal was. But then, I have purposely kept that stuff out of the house so she really has no clue.

They never miss it and would not even know about it except it is all that is talked of from other kids whose parents think it is wholesome entertainment never realizing that they are starting a 'habit' of being entertained by the popular culture. I want my kid to question everything that comes from the world closely.
And, I am praying she entertains herself with some talent like piano, painting or something like that. (Right now it is piano, basketball, singing and skating)

I challenge everyone to turn off their tv's for 6 months. Put it away and then try to watch it. it will freak you out. It is so shallow and vapid.

Lynn said...

gmommy said...

OK...now I get the stupid videos the interns made....
they are just take offs on the worldly, mindless, pointless dirty ones from the world.

I was trying to make things too complicated!

the bar has been "raised" for the youth at BBC...
goes along with the dark rooms and fog machines ...and the lies told from the pulpit with no shame or repentance.

No thank you on the bogus "unity" call....

8:27 PM, January 29, 2008


Don't forget the picture of Jesus that is used as the background for some of the youth events. The picture of Jesus looks more like a picture of Che Guevara....which happens to be a popular image on shirts kids wear these days.

concernedSBCer said...

Lin: EXCELLENT points. I will warn you.....as she gets older, she will not "fit in" at all.

My kids talk/debate Shakespeare and poetry and classical music and philosophers and history. I homeschooled so they didn't deal with a lot of the popular culture. Sunday School was actually their least favorite place. They got tired of the "stupid" lessons with the questions all having the same churchy surface answers. They got tired of the girls only being able to discuss their brand of lipstick, going to the mall, and boys. They were completely isolated around those peers because they weren't interested in that stuff. The got along great with adults though because they could hold a meaningful conversation. They had a great peer group in high school so they did all sorts of fun things together like swing dancing, dressing in period clothing (that they sewed) for the Lord Of The Rings openings, scrapbooking, service at our Baptist Children's home, and chess club. Individually they pursued interests such as music (drums, piano, violin, clarinet), art, archery, beading, knitting, and their most favorite, reading. Bored? Nope. But certainly not in the main stream. All my kids have left the church they were raised in part because of the shallowness of their peers. They are now in a very small Christian Liberal Arts college and they have another peer group. They are hilarious to listen to! They debate French history and play games like spoons and Catch Phrase and watch and discuss the symbolism in Anime. Many haven't dated yet. They are looking for the right person for them. Their hearts will be pure and un-scarred. What a blessing.

Continue protecting your daughter, Lin. I wish more parents would.

emptyseat said...

For anyone interested, you can catch Johnny Hunt for $30 on Feb 22at Kirby Woods or for $50 on March 7 at First Baptist Mt. Juliet.

I'm not sure who will be preaching at Woodstock in his absence. Does anyone know if he still works?

Kirby Woods is expecting 2,000 and Mt. Juliet at least that many.

No wonder Kirby Woods pastor is going on the speaking tour.

all2jesus said...

I have it on good authority that the intern videos were shown at the youth Winter Camp in Gatlinburg in December. Whether it was produced for that purpose, I don't know. Most of the kids thought it was hilarious. IMHO, such foolishness among the senior staff has a high cost: loss of respect. To me, it's the same sort of disrespect ala the Clinton video.

sickofthelies said...

When my daughter was 15, she was asked to babysit for a BBC family. They seemed ok, so we let her go. The mom would come and get her...and bring her home..

The problem was that in the car, the little boys were listening to music about being gay...and how cool it was..and the 5 y/o was singing along..and the mother thought it was so cute.

My daughter was horrified. The music was embarassing to her.

No doubt, some of the ' cool interns' at BBC would think that my daughter was just a nerd...uncool...but she had discernment and refused to babysit for that family again.

Had she wanted to keep ' unity' within the body, she would have continued to do something that she knew was wrong.

Sorry, kids, but unity at any price is straight from Satan..

concernedSBCer said...

Empty Seat: Let me be sure I understand. People are going to pay $30 and $50 to hear a man preach?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lynn,

We really don't know what Jesus looked like. For all we know, He might have looked Che Guevara!

emptyseat said...

What exactly goes on Monday thru Thursday at Bellevue? What does the staff need interns for these days with thousands of folks gone? It looks like too many have too much time on their hands.
Another interesting thought I had watching Jamie Parker was the fact that it took two men to replace Jim Whitmire and this is the result.
Sad and pitiful.

New BBC Open Forum said...

all2jesus wrote:

"IMHO, such foolishness among the senior staff has a high cost: loss of respect."

Could you ever in your wildest dreams imagine Dr. Rogers sitting at his desk and letting a couple of interns throw a dodgeball at his head? I can't imagine him participating, and I can't imagine anyone being willing to throw the ball.

New BBC Open Forum said...

emptyseat wrote:

"What does the staff need interns for these days with thousands of folks gone?"

I wondered that myself.

Lynn said...

With it so windy today, I wouldn't be surprised if Jamie Parker hid under a rock so he wouldn't have to deal with a bad hair day.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I wouldn't worry about Jamie's hair, Lynn. I don't think it's going anywhere. It's monolithic.

Seriously, his hair does always look nice.

Mike said...

SOTL

"Tell me, Mike...did you think that the interns mocking the birth of our savior sets an example for Christ?

Is it ok to mock Jesus, as long as you do it in a church?

Should we remain silent and just let it continue, rather than to speak up? Is it worse to see us not unified than it is to watch the disrespecting of our Savior?

Since anything goes now, and there are people like you who will condone this new attitude in the House of God, what's next?

When will YOU speak up? Where is YOUR line in the sand?"

First, I'm not convinced they were mocking Jesus. Second, the "House of God" as you call it is just brick and mortar. Third, I am speaking up but you only want those who agree with your opinion.

I have a line and it is certainly about more than which songs we sing or what the topic of the sermon is.

WishIhadknown said...

I'm curious, who is more divisive? A blog where a group of disenfranchised former members of a once great church discuss issues and offer encouragement or a man who knows that making him pastor will destroy the church.

Mike said...

OC,

I wouldn't say I have led a sheltered life unless you consider 20+ years in the Navy sheltered. And I know I am a sinner and have probably done worse things than Pastor Steve but I'm positive that he is preaching the gospel and trying to reach Memphis for Jesus.

concernedSBCer said...

Mike: So what is your line? Seriously. :-)

Mine isn't music per se (as has been accused)...it's the general lack of respect and integrity found in the church. Add to that a surface teaching, worldly atmosphere and lazy servants....my line is there.

Where exactly is yours?

gmommy said...

here we go again...how boring and old.....is that the BEST you can do MIke....it hasn't been about the music since Steve lied and said that child abuse was uncharted waters....next please..

gmommy said...

Wish...
I know ! I know!!!!!

sickofthelies said...

Mike,

So do you think that a pastor should be held to a higher standard, or the same standard as yourself?

So you are willing to accept that he allowed a sexual pervert/deviant loose among the women and children at BBC.

Are you aware that he sent PW back to the job of counseling women who had been sexually abused as children?

SG allowed PW to sit in judgement of women who were forced to go to counseling before they were allowed to VOLUNTEER with children.

HOw can a man who has done this have any credibility left?

He does not meet the Biblical guidelines to be a pastor.

That doesn't seem to matter to you...

But don't worry..it doesn't matter to many that are still there, but fortunately, several thousand people took issue with it and left, including the Rogers family.

TN Lizzie said...

The only thing I found funny in the 2 "kidnapped" videos was the line about hairspray and Jamie. His hair always looks the same, doesn't it?!

These young interns should be ashamed of themselves. Steve Gaines should be ashamed of himself, but apparently he thinks it is ok for the interns to be "scared" of knocking on his door, "scared" of "the man."

~ pitiful ~

I know of a young staff member who, years ago, tried to sing in a silly way one of the solos from the Passion Play. His audience included Dr. Rogers, who sat quietly during the performance. This young man was later raked over the coals by Dr. Rogers for his disrespect. Not that the song itself was "holy," but the God it was written for is.

If those videos are the best that BBC has to offer her youth, I am more scared than ever. Some of these youth will be serving me at McDonalds. Ewwww! Ain't no way they will be dating my daughters though!

My 4yo would say of the videos, "That's wrong Mommy. Why are they acting like that at Bellevue?" Even she knows better!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Was anyone else bothered by the part of the 2006 video in which the intern was pointing a very realistic gun at Santa and pretending to hold him hostage? I admit the guy playing Santa deserved to be shot for such a silly portrayal, but.... Okay! I'm just kidding!

Seriously, I really don't find pointing a gun at another human being, even if it is a fake gun, humorous. It may be necessary if it's some scumbag trying to break into my house or harm me or a member of my family, but that's real life, it's never humorous, and this wasn't either. It gave me chills to watch it.

New BBC Open Forum said...

It just occurred to me last night what all this reminds me of. ANIMAL HOUSE! You've noticed, I'm sure, that there are no females in these videos. It's just the boys having a good old time. Bellevue has turned into a big frat house!

Alpha Beta Schmo

gmommy said...

I asked my daughter to post about her responsibilities when she was an intern one summer...she declined for personal reasons... but did give me permission to share....she was expected to "serve cookies".

New BBC Open Forum said...

From today's Commercial Appeal letters to the editor:

Bellevue branches out

I didn't realize that God and Jesus were in the hunting and killing business until I saw the ad in your Jan. 26 Sports section for the upcoming Sportsmen's Extravaganza at Bellevue Baptist Church.

The man in the ad's photo is smiling. The deer in the photo doesn't look too happy. God must be pleased. Praise Jesus. Bring the family, your wallet and bullets.

William Maharrey

Mt. Pleasant, Miss.

MOM4 said...

tn lizzie said,
These young interns should be ashamed of themselves. Steve Gaines should be ashamed of himself, but apparently he thinks it is ok for the interns to be "scared" of knocking on his door, "scared" of "the man."

That same door is the one that secretly had the locks changed, keeping Dr Rogers out of the pastor's suite. It was before the 200K remodel. I guess that was when Gaines put in that great big mirror behind his desk, the one he was facing when the interns came in. He either likes to look at himself, or is watching his back....

concernedSBCer said...

Interesting....the LWF devotion for yesterday:

BIBLE MEDITATION:
“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.” Romans 13:1

DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT:
Our generation doesn’t like the word authority. We don’t like to be under anybody. We stick out our chests and talk about being free-born Americans, and if you’re a baby boomer you are of a generation of anti-authority figures. In your lifetime you’ve gone through the hula hoop, the Barbie doll, pop psychology, Dr. Spock, Donahue, and the Beatles. It was all anti-authority! Fathers were Archie Bunker. Preachers were Flip Wilson. The anthem was, “Do your thing. If it feels good, do it.” Many of us dare not realize the vestiges of rebellion that still lurk down in our hearts.

ezekiel said...

Folks, Jesus is going to be breaking a lot more than a couple of stone tablets when He comes down from Mount Zion....Moses was just a shadow of things to come.

“And the people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.”

Ex32 1 When the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, the people gathered themselves together to Aaron and said to him, Up, make us gods who shall go before us. As for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him. 2 So Aaron said to them, Take off the rings of gold that are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me. 3 So all the people took off the rings of gold that were in their ears and brought them to Aaron. 4 And he received the gold from their hand and fashioned it with a graving tool and made a golden calf. And they said, These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt! 5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made proclamation and said, Tomorrow shall be a feast to the Lord. 6 And they rose up early the next day and offered burnt offerings and brought peace offerings. And the people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. 7 And the Lord said to Moses, Go down, for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves. 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way that I commanded them. They have made for themselves a golden calf and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it and said, These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt! 9 And the Lord said to Moses, I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people. 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. 25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens. 27 This phrase, Yet once more, indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

As you seek to become disciples of Christ, you may want to search his ways....

Psalms 18 and
Psalms 18:22
For all his rules were before me,
and his statutes I did not put away from me.

The thing that most distresses me is that we can find this in a lot of churches, not just BBC. It has become acceptable to them just as it was to Israel at the foot of the mountain in the wilderness.....Are you determined to die there as well?

emptyseat said...

MOM4,

HOW TO DETECT A 2-WAY MIRROR

When we visit bathrooms, hotel rooms, changing rooms, etc., how many of you know for sure that the seemingly ordinary mirror hanging on the wall is a real mirror, or actually a 2-way mirror (i.e. they can see you, but you can't see them)?

There have been many cases of people installing 2-way mirrors in female changing rooms. It is very difficult to positively identify the surface by just looking at it. It's time to get paranoid. So, how do we determine with any amount of certainty? Just conduct this simple test:

Place the tip of your fingernail against the reflective surface and if there is a GAP between your fingernail and the image of the nail, then it is a GENUINE mirror. However, if your fingernail DIRECTLY TOUCHES the image of your nail, then BEWARE, for it is a 2-way mirror!

So if not at home and changing before a mirror, do the "fingernail test". It doesn't cost you anything. It is simple to do.

BBC 11yrs said...

What upset me about these videos is the fact that BBC no longer does church the way I remember and the way it ought to be.

It is videos like this, among other styles of things happening, that have driven many out of the church to find comfort elsewhere. For what cause?

Junkster said...

emptyseat said...
MOM4,

HOW TO DETECT A 2-WAY MIRROR



Not necessarily. See this.

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
It just occurred to me last night what all this reminds me of. ANIMAL HOUSE! You've noticed, I'm sure, that there are no females in these videos. It's just the boys having a good old time. Bellevue has turned into a big frat house!

Alpha Beta Schmo


There isn't exactly an abundance of female ministers and interns at BBC. Not that if there were they'd all be making those kinds of videos -- they'd probably be doing parodies of Rachel Ray and Martha Stewart.

Junkster said...

emptyseat said...
For anyone interested, you can catch Johnny Hunt for $30 on Feb 22at Kirby Woods or for $50 on March 7 at First Baptist Mt. Juliet.

concernedSBCer said...
Empty Seat: Let me be sure I understand. People are going to pay $30 and $50 to hear a man preach?



Not exactly. Kirby Woods is hosting a Men's Bible Conference, at which Johnny Hunt and others are speaking, and the cost is $30.

New BBC Open Forum said...

There are NO female ministers at BBC. They may be doing the same jobs (e.g. Higgy replacing PW), but they're not conferred "minister" status. That's reserved for nearly every man they hire, whether any of them are called to the ministry or not, who get all the tax breaks from being licensed ministers. Who says church isn't a business?

Female interns wouldn't be wasting their time making stupid videos. They'd be doing their jobs -- serving cookies.

Junkster said...

Lin said...
This is just my opinion and I would love to hear from other moms what they think.



Just moms? Aren't Christian dads equal??

;)

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
Female interns wouldn't be wasting their time making stupid videos. They'd be doing their jobs -- serving cookies.


Well, as long as they know their place ...

(Ducking and running.)

:)

Junkster said...

On a serious note, Wade Burleson has resigned as a Trustee of the Southern Baptist International Mission Board .

Probably a good thing for him personally, but sad for Sothern Baptists in general.

sickofthelies said...

tn lizzie said:

I know of a young staff member who, years ago, tried to sing in a silly way one of the solos from the Passion Play. His audience included Dr. Rogers, who sat quietly during the performance. This young man was later raked over the coals by Dr. Rogers for his disrespect. Not that the song itself was "holy," but the God it was written for is.

*******

Now that's EXACTLY what I am talking about!!!

These punks who come on here and flame us for not being " with it" should take a good long look at what Tin Lizzie posted about Dr. R.

You do not have to disrespect our savior to bring people to Christ.

New BBC Open Forum said...

junk wrote:

"Well, as long as they know their place ..."

That's right. At Bellevue as well as in much of the SBC, that is their place. Just ask Paige Patterson & Co.

Lin said...

"Just moms? Aren't Christian dads equal??"

Oh, I thought they were too busy being the 'head'. :o)

gmommy said...

I'm glad Nass and Junk had some fun with my daughter's memory of her internship! :)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Regarding Wade Burleson resigning from the IMB board of trustees... so much for preserving the unity and the bond of peace.

There are some interesting comments over there. I thought this excerpt from one was particularly good:

"Although I could see this coming, nevertheless it came as a shock and a blow to freedom. I do believe that the reasons given for your resignation were valid ones, involving your own conscience, and the desire to see the IMB move forward. For that, I commend you.

"However, this will not insure that justice will prevail nor will it result in wiser decisions and more Christian attitudes on the part of the IMB trustees. What it may mean is that the leader of the trustees will become emboldened to the point that he believes he can do no wrong, and that he has ultimate power.

"While I am saddened by your resignation and deeply grieved at the way you have been treated, I am saddened and angered even more because of the stubbornness and hard-hearted attitudes of the leaders. It is a cancer that seems to be spreading across the convention and will eventually do more irreparable harm to Bible believing Baptists who sincerely desire to remain in the SBC, but who because of conscience, like you will give up and leave.

"I could write a book about my feelings regarding some of the leaders because I know too much about them--their past actions and attitudes which have not changed, and which reveal their true nature. I cannot understand why God continues to allow men who do not act according to Biblical teachings regarding relationships with fellow believers while at the same time trumpeting their dogmatic beliefs as their reasons for the un-Christian attitudes and actions. Unfortunately, the seeds for this cancer were sown in the so-called Conservative Resurgence. Please hear me out. I am not blaming those who sincerely were striving to return the SBC to what they consider its Biblical roots. What I saw happening was an attitude that the end justified the means, and some of the means being used were shocking to me.

"What I am saying is that some who were caught up in that movement have apparently carried that attitude over into the 'new' SBC, seemingly maintaining the belief that they can do no wrong if they are protecting the true doctrinal beliefs that make up the SBC.

"While it may seem that they have won, I can assure you that God is no respector of persons, and what a man sows, that he shall also reap."


Amen.

concernedSBCer said...

Oh my.

So please tell me again.......why is the SBC crucial, vital and important?

Seriously, if someone out there knows, I really want to know too. I'm struggling with this, truly.

Lynn said...

In regards to today's youth,

As a society, we have become more accepting of stuff that would cause loud uproars 10, 20, 30 years ago. If you want an example, take a look at the video games kids today play. Do a google search for the video game titled "Grand Theft Auto". That will tell you volumes about what today's kids are accepting as entertainment. To give a brief synopsis, this is a game where you commit felonious crimes such as murder, carjacking, killing cops, etc. Given the fact that I grew up on video games most of my life....I remember in the early 90s everyone was in a loud uproar over a video game called Mortal Kombat. This was a fighting game that included moves called "fatalities" where one character would rip another's heart out etc. I must ask, where is the outrage today? Games these days are 10x worse than they were in the early 90s, but the uproar today is silent. And sadly, this acceptance has seeped into the churches as well.

maybejustmaybe said...

Is there a significant difference between these intern videos and other church/religious satire, e.g., the sacredsandwich.com?

Lin said...

Seriously, if someone out there knows, I really want to know too. I'm struggling with this, truly.

10:40 PM, January 30, 2008


Me too. I don't get it. I am to the point where I believe we need to mentor native preachers/teachers on the mission field to plant and grow churches. I know we do that to some extent but it is not really the main goal. If you notice, they usually send a native pastor wannabe back here for seminary.

Think of all the money that goes to ridiculous stuff at SBC. Just reading Mary Kinney's book made me see how ridiculous it all is even though that was not her intent. Some of the inner workings she thought was normal but abused. When we have warehouses full of bracelets from China, etc, there is something wrong. It has become a marketing business.

What I found so insidious were all the high level employees writing books, training materials and then making royalty off them when they sell through Lifeway.

So why do we need the SBC? Some SBC churches have seriously curtailed the amount they give to the SBC and local association.

New BBC Open Forum said...

mjm wrote:

"Is there a significant difference between these intern videos and other church/religious satire, e.g., the sacredsandwich.com?"

Yes, there most definitely is. Ths "sandwich" material is produced by adults, I assume on their own time, not when someone is paying them to otherwise be working, and in all the examples of SS parody, cartoons, and satire I've seen, in no instance is the Lord Jesus Christ lampooned or otherwise disrespected. And some of the SS material is actually funny.

bromichael said...

Visiting this blog site has become like watching a surgery on The Learning Channel. What I find always is too gruesome for my senses to handle, yet I can't make myself stay away. Several times now I've posted on doctrinal or theological issues, if only to lend what I believed to be biblical perspective meant to offer Christ-centered encouragement. With several of those posts I then included my commitment to not come back--seeing less and less fruit in continuing to visit. Yet here I am again for what is most definitely my last visit. Let me tell you why that's the case.

Your senior pastor, worship pastor, and even interns may, in fact, be the most childish vocational ministers in the Southern Baptist Convention today. I'm not prepared to debate that and am shocked that it merited inclusion in a blog. But instead of illustrating how far Bellevue has fallen, maybe its inclusion here shows how far this blog has fallen. I can understand disseminating information about intimidation tactics or poor stewardship or hiding pedophilia, but I cannot understand this. Yes, these videos qualify for the "Stupid" label to anyone not uniquely able to connect through them--which would include myself. And yes, those are 15 minutes I'll never get back. But seeing bloggers--the same bloggers as always, I might add--wax eloquent about how these videos represent the downfall of a once-mighty church is a sad sight for me. It only proves how fruitless this blog has become.

There's nothing more of Kingdom value being accomplished here, friends. If it's repentance and renewal in Bellevue life you seek, then realize that this blog just isn't facilitating it and seek the Lord for new direction. If it's mobilization of fellow believers and members you seek, then do similarly. And if it's the sense of community this site has afforded that you enjoy, take that desire for fellowship and pour it back into the church you now call home. With every new post you are only becoming more distracted and more chained yourselves to your frustrations, and, worse, Christ is getting less and less glory from you who truly do love Him.

Do not understand this as some endorsement of what has happened through your leadership. Even from my distance, it's pretty plain to see some ugly things have taken place. But this blog is not solving things. Please, for the sake of our King and His Kingdom, shut it down and start the next chapter of your lives. It will be hard to cut ties like this after you've grown so used to them, but this cutting is so needed. Please, at least think on what I've said.

amazed said...

In the Wade Burleson matter, even his apology was unacceptable. You will also note an all powerful head of the trustees was in charge and called the shots. Dictators always get their way.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Michael,

It's a blog. It doesn't have to always be about a particular topic. If you don't want to read it, no one's making you come back. I have enjoyed our discussions with you and have appreciated your contributions. You seem to be different from many of the pastors we've encountered (and I mean that in a good way).

But frankly, I'm growing weary of a handful of people telling me to "shut it down." I don't need your advice, thank you. I don't see any of you advising Wade Burleson or any other blogger or the regulars on the Baptist Life forums to do likewise, and you're not going to catch me telling anyone in the blogosphere to shut down their blogs. It's none of my business.

I stand by my previous assertion that these videos do indeed reflect a deterioration in the integrity of the leadership at Bellevue that has trickled down to the younger set. I don't think you have to be an "insider" to see that. And there is more to come, so you may want to drop by again in a week or so.

Michael, I am being sincere when I say you'll be missed here. May God bless you and your ministry.

gopher said...

This has been mentioned:

"Regarding Wade Burleson resigning from the IMB board of trustees"

Also, someone had mentioned Johnny Hunt.
Well, if you clicked the link provided

Here

you will see that after Johnny... is Ken Whitten, formerly from Bellevue Baptist.

Notice that his listed credential's include being a trustee to the International Missions Board. Is this not the same board that Wade was booted from. Seems Ken didn't want to sever his connections with the book sales and speaking engagements he has to stand with Wade.

Disappointing

maybejustmaybe said...

mjm wrote:

"Is there a significant difference between these intern videos and other church/religious satire, e.g., the sacredsandwich.com?"

NBBCOF replied:

Yes, there most definitely is. Ths "sandwich" material is produced by adults, I assume on their own time, not when someone is paying them to otherwise be working, and in all the examples of SS parody, cartoons, and satire I've seen, in no instance is the Lord Jesus Christ lampooned or otherwise disrespected. And some of the SS material is actually funny.

9:29 AM, January 31, 2008

Question: If the issue is disrespect of the Lord and irreverance, what does it matter if it's produced by adults or students? Seems it would be wrong either way, otherwise a double standard.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I apologize for inadvertently giving the impression the age of the people would matter if they were showing irreverence or disrespect to the Lord. Of course it wouldn't. You are correct that my use of the word "adults" was irrelevant. I should have worded my response better. (It was a mistake of the mind, not the heart, okay?)

However, I disagree that the Sacred Sandwich material is in any way disrespectful to Christ. Maybe to overweight, knobby-kneed pastors, 1950s fashion trends, Calvinists, Arminians, patriarchs, and other man-ordained groups, but not to the Lord.

You are correct that it would be wrong if both groups were doing it, but IMO they are not.

Are you trying to say that the intern videos and the SS material are both offensive or that neither is? You seem to be saying they're the same, but I'm just not sure how you view them.

Junkster said...

Lin said...
I am to the point where I believe we need to mentor native preachers/teachers on the mission field to plant and grow churches.


Same goes for stateside churches. I've always considered it odd that the last thing most churches want to do is for the someone to be selected by the congregation from within their own church to be trained and mentored by the existing pastor to become the next pastor. But I can't imagine the early church doing it any other way.

A seminary education offers some advantages, but I think the advantages of training a pastor for ministry within the local church setting would be greater. There was a time not so long ago when older pastors did just that, teaching younger ones within the local church, including using the biblical languages. Guess too many pastors consider it their job to "run the church" to invest time in that sort of thing these days.

What seems strange to me is that most churches seem to prefer calling someone from outside their local church to be their pastor. I don't think those churches with an elder body would consider calling an elder from another church and asking the elder to leave his current church and come join their elder body, but that's what they do with pastors all the time. But since "pastor" is just another name for "elder", it seems like an odd practice.

watchman said...

Speaking of laughs at Truths' expense...

Check out how Saddlebacks' guru of grotesqueness Rick Warren denigrates all things Holy on this interview with mocker Stephen Colbert.

RICK WARREN PILING UP JUDGEMENT

concernedSBCer said...

Bro Michael: I have got to respond to your post. You have been a voice of reason and, to some degree, reconciliation, on this blog. You have tried to be calm and see all sides, and for that, I appreciate your time. But I'm not sure where some of your post today comes from.

You said: "Your senior pastor, worship pastor, and even interns may, in fact, be the most childish vocational ministers in the Southern Baptist Convention today. I'm not prepared to debate that and am shocked that it merited inclusion in a blog." Michael, isn't that the point? The "uncharted waters" denial of a sexual predator was a childish response for a pastor of 20 years, don't you think? This is all about the pattern of leadership, the lack of integrity and honor.

You said: "But seeing bloggers--the same bloggers as always, I might add--wax eloquent about how these videos represent the downfall of a once-mighty church is a sad sight for me." Again, this is not JUST about BBC. If you'll note, we have also, in this thread, discussed the lack of parental involvement to understand some of the dangerous areas kids are dabbling in. It seems as if you are looking at the little picture while most of us are focused on the trends of the big picture and direction of our churches. And we are not "waxing elequant" to raise ourselves or this blog up; it's because we are passionate about the honor and respect due our Lord and Master. That honor and respect is not being modeled or taught at many of our churches.

You said: "If it's repentance and renewal in Bellevue life you seek, then realize that this blog just isn't facilitating it and seek the Lord for new direction." Is it not? How do we know? Maybe not now. Certainly in God's timing. But the alternative is to tuck tail and run so as not to upset anyone. Except our Creator of course.

You said: "If it's mobilization of fellow believers and members you seek, then do similarly." I'm not sure what this means, but yes, I think we hope that at least one person will be inspired to read their Bible for themselves, to see what GOD has to say. To maybe be affirmed that something that is giving them a "check in their spirit" maybe doesn't mean they are crazy. To encourage someone to get back into study so as not to be misled.

And you also said "And if it's the sense of community this site has afforded that you enjoy, take that desire for fellowship and pour it back into the church you now call home." This just shows me that you don't get us at all. All this time, and you still can't see the forest for the trees. Many of us have no church home. The denomination has been highjacked by prideful false teachers, immature and selfish leadership, and surface teaching. Here we can have a deep discussion of tithing, or the purpose of youth groups, or integrity in leadership. This is a community, you are right. A strong community. And it is just as viable as a street or a building.

If you can't understand the frustration felt because of the lack of Biblical teaching, fellowship, guidelines, etc. then I just don't know what to say. I guess I can't see where you are coming from at all. I tried to. I pondered all day on your post. I still just don't see it.

You said: "Do not understand this as some endorsement of what has happened through your leadership. Even from my distance, it's pretty plain to see some ugly things have taken place."Yes, they have. But it's not just in the past. Many mistakes are being repeated over and over at churches all over the country. What is wrong with trying to sound the alarm so other sheep don't have to walk the path of these disenfranchised BBC sheep? Instead we just ignore the tremendous amount of sin that has gone on, just let it be. Condone it. Nope. I can't. And Jesus wouldn't either.

Mike said...

SOTL,
RE: Your post of 1-29-08 1105PM

First, I know what has gone on around Bellevue since Pastor Steve arrived and though I am not happy about a lot of it I know that EVERYONE makes mistakes. Pastor Steve had admitted his mistakes and has asked forgiveness. The majority of the congregation accepted his apology and is trying to move on and be the church. Steve Gaines is not the church; the people are. And of those thousands that left I hope they did it because they were directed by God to do so. If not maybe they should come back. I don’t want anybody to leave unless God is in it. How many of the one that left are actively participating in another fellowship?

The situation at Bellevue is not unique and everything was not as pretty as it appeared under Dr. Rogers' pastorate either. That is not to say Dr. Rogers condoned sin by any means but we all know there were ministers on the staff during his tenure that has issues also. Do I think PW should have been fired? Definitely! But what if a member had gone in for counseling, should they be excommunicated from the membership? I think you would be amazed at how many pedophiles, adulterers, liars, thieves, parent haters, coveters, murderers, blasphemers, and sinners there are at Bellevue. I believe we all are according to the Bible. I think we all need to search deep within ourselves to make sure we are clean before we cast too many stones. I believe the first commandment sums up all the rest. If we truly put God first the other nine commandments would fall right into place. The beatitudes would be a way of life and people would be running to the church instead of laughing at us. The world doesn’t laugh at us because of what we believe; it laughs because of our actions screaming that we don’t believe. If we did we would get down to the business of trying to reach people for Jesus, if not through our verbal witness at least through the love we show each other and the world.

No, I don’t think a pastor or anyone else should be held to a higher standard. Jesus set the standard and we should all seek to live up to that standard. Remember Jesus said He did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law. I do believe preaches, teachers, and leader will be held accountable for their actions.

And even though this much too long, I could write many pages on my experiences in church politics. It is not a pretty sight. But again, the church is the people and we are all unique and God made us all unique. If we are going to get mad at some one why don’t we get mad at God? He big enough to take it and He already knows we are mad.

Opie said...

I am probably about to make some enemies, but I must disagree with a previous comment by concernedsbcer. I believe that this site may be a great source of study, fellowship, and dicipleship, however I don't believe that it is acceptable to become a congregational recluse and reject face-to-face interaction, fellowship, ministry, and worship with a local church family. As everyone already knows, church is essentially an "assembly". It is true that we can assemble online, but where is the expanding and growing ministry to others? Yes, many of you minister to each other, but we are commanded to make a difference in a world of darkness, not to hide among the like-minded. Everyone is commanded to make a difference in this world, being salt and light. Friends, we can't let the disobedience or audacity of others keep us from fulfilling our jobs as Christians, nor can we forsake the assembling together of ourselves. Please, no one take this as a personal attack or accusation, I'm simply hoping to encourage everyone to seek a local church family where they can fellowship and serve.

New BBC Open Forum said...

opie,

I think you misunderstood "concernedsbcer." I happen to know she's very involved in her own church, and I don't think any of us think of this blog as a substitute for church. It is a community. It's not church, but I will say the discussions here are sometimes deeper and have made me dig deeper in the Word than any church service I've been to in a long, long time. Still it's not church. Yours is good advice. Thank you.

Lynn said...

Get the duct tape ready folks....


Bellevue's Ordaining Ryan Wingo!

concernedSBCer said...

Opie: I am so sorry I did not make myself clear. You are exactly right; all should search a church when they can both serve and be fed. My point was that the blog is filling a gap for some that are still searching or that are needing some time to heal. I don't think anyone here minimizes the importance of a church family. But I know I have been challenged tremendously by those I have met here.

eprov said...

opie.....
While I do believe in the local assembly of believers, I think it becomes a whipping post for pastors who have a selfish agenda, kinda like tithing.
There are many times in scripture where God has called someone to a 'time' away from others. Could be for fasting, prayer, an act of personal piety, etc.
The local assembly is not the end all.
Our greatest calling isn't to assemble. God knows sometimes we would be better off staying at home.
It is to be in a process of becoming more like Christ. That is THE highest and most important calling.
An assembly is the 'called out ones.' Now to beg the question - how many in the average church are the 'called out?'
Now please, all, do me a favor and read what I said. Not what I didn't say.

gmommy said...

of course they are ordaining Wingo...
why in the world would we ever be surprised???
when many of us were still involved in BBC... we had no voice in the "ordination" of CEO DC.

Opie,
Your post is so not connected to our blog that I am totally confused...not unusual for me...
but what in the world makes you think the majority of us...and I know who I'm talking about...aren't involved in a church???
That doesn't mean we blow off the trust relationships we have built thru our like mindedness and this blog.
You keep things in your box if that's where you are ...but alot of us have learned there is life outsdide that little bubble we all used to live in.

and opie,
your term "expanding and growing" ministry says more than you probably meant to say.

Junkster said...

Mike said...
Pastor Steve had admitted his mistakes and has asked forgiveness.


Exactly when did he admit that he made a "mistake" by leaving PW on staff after his confession and by keeping quiet about it? I must have missed that.

The majority of the congregation accepted his apology and is trying to move on and be the church.

I also don't recall a forum in which the majority of the congregation was given an opportunity to openly discuss and resolve their concerns and indicate whether or not any apologies offered were accepted. I guess you could say that more people stayed that left (so far), but I'm not even sure about that. If you add the number of people on the membership rolls who have not attended for years (many of whom cannot even be located) together with those who moved their membership to other churches, I would not be surprised if that number is larger than the number who stayed. My point is that for all we know those "missing members" might have returned one day but now will not due to the "mistakes" made by SG.

Steve Gaines is not the church; the people are.

Perhaps someone ought to remind SG of that.

And of those thousands that left I hope they did it because they were directed by God to do so. If not maybe they should come back. I don’t want anybody to leave unless God is in it.

Too bad SG didn't feel that way. His message was "If you don't like it, you can leave", not "If God directs..."

It is so very sad that so many church folks these days are not disgusted and dismayed by the egotism and spiritual insensitivity of church "leaders". Seems that folks are just fine with it, even expect it.

gmommy said...

I meant to say exactly what junk said!!!!!
Thank you for saying it all so much better... :)

gmommy said...

I meant to say exactly what junk said!!!!!
Thank you for saying it all so much better... :)

Lin said...

"Steve Gaines is not the church; the people are. "

You must not have heard last Sunday night's sermon...or was it the Sun before? Anyway, it was an extreme twisting of Acts 15.

Steve made it VERY clear that HE was the main ELDER and that there are NO super deacons. HE is the leader...it is HIS church and HE makes the decisions.

You can believe otherwise...but according to your pastor, you would be wrong.

Lin said...

"I think you would be amazed at how many pedophiles, adulterers, liars, thieves, parent haters, coveters, murderers, blasphemers, and sinners there are at Bellevue. I believe we all are according to the Bible. ":

Please tell me they aren't all ministers! Have you studied 1 Timothy much? Anyway, you may want to take a look at Hebrews 10:26-31.

Is there are any point at which a Christian should be concerned if they are not growing in Holiness and sinning less?

Lin said...

":No, I don’t think a pastor or anyone else should be held to a higher standard."

You may also want to study James. ...not all of you should be teachers.....

Lin said...

If we are going to get mad at some one why don’t we get mad at God? He big enough to take it and He already knows we are mad.

6:19 PM, January 31, 2008

This is the scariest thing I have read yet. The created is going to get mad at the Creator? Have you ever read Job?

Though He slay me, I will love Him.

all2jesus said...

Mike said:
First, I know what has gone on around Bellevue since Pastor Steve arrived and though I am not happy about a lot of it I know that EVERYONE makes mistakes. Pastor Steve had admitted his mistakes and has asked forgiveness.


Pastor Steve has admitted only what was glaringly obvious and spun it for all it was worth. His "apologies" were curt, to the point, and forced because he couldn't ignore certain problems anymore. If you sensed he was genuinely broken or heartsick over the damage he caused, fine; I didn't.

Furthermore, he deliberately lied several times to the congregation. Has he repented and apologized for that? Let me ask you, do you trust Steve Gaines? What has he done to regain your trust in the wake of his dishonesty? The man who succeeds by lying will continue to do so. You say you know what has gone on. How is it you a turn a blind eye?

Do I think PW should have been fired? Definitely!

But not the Senior Pastor who knew about it for six months and kept him on staff? And still sought to keep him on even after it became public, saying that explicit scriptures dealing with the qualifications for leadership are "just guidelines'?

But what if a member had gone in for counseling, should they be excommunicated from the membership?

No one I know wanted PW "excommunicated". Discipline should always have restoration in view. But restoration to fellowship is not the same as restoration to leadership. If PW had been divorced and remarried, his qualifications would be pretty much shot. Yet that's a far cry from having molested your own child, wouldn't you say? You want to follow a pastor with that little integrity? I ask again, do you trust the man? How so?

No, I don’t think a pastor or anyone else should be held to a higher standard. ... I do believe preaches, teachers, and leader will be held accountable for their actions.

A curious pair of statements. You mean they'll be held accountable, but no more than anybody else? I beg to differ: My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. James 3:1

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Opie said...

gmommy,
I didn't intend to ruffle any feathers, but I'm quite sure my comment deserves the defensive tone in your reply. I am not meaning to imply that the people on this blog don't attend church, I am saying though that when people are hurt it is very easy to want to withdraw. There is a time for withdrawl. Jesus Himself often withdrew from the hustle and bustle around Him even though He had few years to minister.

What I am trying to say is that God created the local church to be a beautiful, encouraging family. To allow Satan or those working for him to rob us of that joy would be a great loss not only for us personally, but for those He intended for us to band with in order to (yes, I'm going to say it) proclaim and expand His Kingdom.

Jesus didn't leave Christians on earth to huddle together afraid of the world, but to battle it. Of course this gets to the heart of this thread...too many are entralled by the world instead repulsed, but we faithful few must engage it for the positive. That doesn't mean we accept it, put on a circus, or go all "seeker-sensitive". What it does mean is that narrow is the gate and few enter in...but we have to be salt and light for the few who are searching for the Truth of God, not the pomp and ceremony of man.

I am simply trying to encourage those hurt by the church to not give up on the Church...it is the Bride that Christ died for.

sickofthelies said...

Sigh,

Mike, Mike, Mike,

Why don't we just all hold hands and sing kumbaya?

That would be about as Biblical as your previous post.

Your philosophy and $1.00 will buy you a cup of coffee, but that's about it.

sickofthelies said...

OH, and by the way, Mike, when you are ready to leave your children/grandchildren alone with PW, we'll talk about his rehabilitation.

Like many of your kind, it's all good unless, of course, we are talking about your own precious little darlings.

oc said...

"If we are going to get mad at some one why don’t we get mad at God? He big enough to take it and He already knows we are mad."




oc says:

Why don't we get mad at Satan instead? Wouldn't that make better sense?

Jussayin'.
oc.

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike said...

A2J, SOTL, JUNK, GM, LIN,

It seems you all addressed some part of my comment. And even referring to the scripture passages and books you provided no one has answered the question of “is there a higher standard than God provided in the 10 commandments or that was provided by Jesus during His ministry?” By the way I did not ask the question, SOTL did. “So do you think that a pastor should be held to a higher standard, or the same standard as yourself?” I think based on scripture the standard is the same for all. Accountability may be different. Sorry, but Jesus sets the standard, not us, no matter how the Bible may be misinterpreted.

amazed said...

Hey Folks--I venture to say that in all of the people that have left BBC, the vast majority still have not found a new church home.

Yes it is easy to become discouraged with "organized church" when you know that some of the same problems are present in many congregations.

Thank goodness, God made salvation a personal matter between the individual and himself.

MOM4 said...

Mike said...
"Sorry, but Jesus sets the standard, not us, no matter how the Bible may be misinterpreted."

Jesus said regarding children:

"It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."

You can find that in Luke 17:2, Mark 9:42 and Matthew 18:6, but oh wait, the pastor said Matthew 18 does not apply to him! I guess that is why he gave PW a free ride.

Yes MIKE, Jesus does set the standard, perhaps Steve Gaines needs to abide by it, or are you giving him a free ride too?

all2jesus said...

Mike said:
Sorry, but Jesus sets the standard, not us, no matter how the Bible may be misinterpreted.


Actually, the law set the standard (Matt. 5:17-19). Jesus fulfilled its requirements on our behalf (Col. 2:13-14). None of us is able to measure up to it except by faith through His imputed righteousness (Rom. 3:9-18; Rom. 4:11-12). He is our perfect example. (John 13:15)

...no one has answered the question of “is there a higher standard than God provided in the 10 commandments or that was provided by Jesus during His ministry?” ... I think based on scripture the standard is the same for all. Accountability may be different.

Mike, you still do not seem to grasp the concept that there is a difference between fellowship and leadership. True, the requirements for leadership are no higher than the standard set forth for everyone, but they are requirements for leadership. A person can be forgiven for violating them and thus restored to fellowship, but not leadership. Scripture specifies that leaders are to be above reproach. Or do you, too, think that 1 Tim. 3:1-13 is just a guideline?

Speaking of unanswered questions, you ignored quite a few of mine...

ezekiel said...

Mike,

”I think based on scripture the standard is the same for all. Accountability may be different. Sorry, but Jesus sets the standard, not us, no matter how the Bible may be misinterpreted.

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

Mark 12:38And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, 39And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: 40Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Then we have all the wrath on church leadership in Jer 23, Ez 34 and Mat 23 that appears to hold leadership to a higher level of accountability. 1 Tim 3:2 speaks of above reproach and 1 Tim 5:17 sets up a higher reward for some.

When we try to separate the standard from the accountability, things get a little murky for me. We start mixing guidelines and commandments that are there for all to follow (standards) while denying the higher standards for conduct that those with more knowledge and responsibility have. (accountability)

A worldly example would be having the same standard for conduct at the age of 3 that you do when you are 30. What are we doing when we say "act your age"? Is that a standard? We take experience and growth out of the equation.

Can you share some scripture with us that explains your position better?

oc said...

Mike said:
"A2J, SOTL, JUNK, GM, LIN,

It seems you all addressed some part of my comment."


So did oc. You didn't address my question. Feelin' kinda left out.

jussayin'.
oc.

WishIhadknown said...

Well, i just wasted my 15 minutes.
This may seem to be a petty topic to someone, but when you realize that members' offering went to pay for its production I realize why it is a topic.
Another question comes to mind, do the interns actually do any work or is it just a way to give "somebody's" son a pay check.
Having participated in most of the Christmas Tree presentations, I know there is more than enough work to be done than to allow time to produce a video.
Most interesting is the part where what's his name comes across Jamie he does not summon help or try to intervene. This is a perfect commentary for the spirit of Bellvue today. So busy trying to win souls we do not recognize a soul that needs saving.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you. I'm glad somebody gets it!

Lin said...

It seems you all addressed some part of my comment. And even referring to the scripture passages and books you provided no one has answered the question of “is there a higher standard than God provided in the 10 commandments or that was provided by Jesus during His ministry?” By the way I did not ask the question, SOTL did. “So do you think that a pastor should be held to a higher standard, or the same standard as yourself?” I think based on scripture the standard is the same for all. Accountability may be different. Sorry, but Jesus sets the standard, not us, no matter how the Bible may be misinterpreted.

7:23 AM, February 01, 2008

Hi Mike, I think using the word 'standard' keeps you from seeing the bigger picture. There are definite specific qualifications for elders/deacons in 1 Timothy 2 and in Titus.

There is no differentiation in the NT between an elder and a preacher that I can find.

Part of the qualifications for elder is to be 'above reproach' to the 'outside'.

What you are missing from this is that one in sin can be restored to the Body after repentance but cannot be an elder or deacon if they are not above reproach to the outside. This is not about being judgemental and mean...it is about keeping the Bride of Christ pure in teaching.

BTW: We are no longer under the 10C. That does not mean they no longer apply at all. What that means is NOW they are 'written' on our hearts.. (Romans and Galatians)

We do not 'have' to live by any standard. As we are regenerated, we WANT to...the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and we are continually growing in Holiness sinning less and less as we mature in the Word.

A good tree does not produce bad fruit. And a bad tree does not produce good fruit. Matt 7(When you think of this metaphor think of how long it takes the fruit to appear...a season of growth)

I think for so long we have been hearing a 'different' gospel than the one that was taught in scripture that we do not really understand sanctification and what it looks like. We are totally desensitized to sin and continually dumb it down to the point we do not recognize what is sin anymore. We are so focused on 'sinners sin' that we forget we are to sin less and less as we mature in Christ.

If we aren't broken by our sin, there may be a problem.

WishIhadknown said...

Speaking of standards, there was a time when Dr Rogers preached on the standards for who made an acceptable pastor. One of the requirements he listed is that we should not have a man as a pastor who is a member of a country club. A pastor is to be out among the people not hobnobbing with the "elite." I just wonder what happened to that standard since if it is true that Gaines has a membership at Colonial.

gmommy said...

Opie said,
gmommy,
I didn't intend to ruffle any feathers, but I'm quite sure my comment deserves the defensive tone in your reply.


Hey Opie,
You probably meant that I should NOT have had a defensive tone.
You may be right ...if that's what you meant. I WAS a little cranky last night...I think you are a good guy so sorry that I was fussy in my response.
I am defensive about my blog friends.
I never thought that last year many of the people I met here would become the friends they are today.

We do alot more outside the blog than just "bowl".
AND there are strong Bereans here that would never be known in our old mega church.
I would and DO look to these friends for support, correction, and guidance LONG before I would look to a professional Christian ever again.
People like Ez, Lin, Junk, Concerened,A2Jesus...(OK, there are too many for me to name!!!!)....spend so much time in God's Word and encourage me to do the same.
After some of the watered down, feel good or beat the sheep sermons I have been subjected to while finding a church...I love our "joint studies" even more!!! Digging into the Word itself is SO MUCH better than the nice women's Bible studies I can't believe I attended or the Sr CEO's TELLING us their own cherry picked version.

I don't disagree with anything in your response to me and I appreciate your caring heart.

I'm grateful God worked good from something so evil in our lives.

I am very protective of my Berean blog friends...as they have been of me....no ugly tone intended in this post,opie :)

gmommy said...

Lin said ...

We do not 'have' to live by any standard. As we are >regenerated,< we WANT to...the Holy Spirit >convicts us of sin< and we are

>continually growing in Holiness sinning less and less as we mature in the Word<.

A good tree does not produce bad fruit. And a bad tree does not produce good fruit.

If we aren't> broken by our sin,< there may be a problem.

gmommy comments,
I don't know how this could be explained ANY clearer ...
this should be such a light bulb for those like Mike and others....
but we will continue to hear ....first about the log in our own eye then from SG... how he is the Sr Pastor/ king/above everyone else....man!!!

oc said...

"A2J, SOTL, JUNK, GM, LIN,
Sorry, but Jesus sets the standard, not us, no matter how the Bible may be misinterpreted."


oc asks:
So, are you saying that those above mentioned are either individually or corporately; whether intentionally or unintentionally; in ignorance or intelligence, misinterpreting the Word of God; whether with evil intent or otherwise?

jussaskin'.
oc.

Lin said...

Hi Opie, Just wanted to let you know that I am very involved with my church. And I agree, assembling ourselves together is taught in scripture. Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves.

And I did not take offense to your comment at all. It only made me think you care!

Blessings

gmommy said...

Is it true that Huck is also going to speak at BBC this Sunday night??

Is he making the rounds of the Baptist churches that have covered for sexual predators?? or do all the mega Baptist churches cover for sexual perverts so Huck can't help himself????

New BBC Open Forum said...

I didn't believe it, but it's true. The story.

Lynn said...

I'm not gonna repeat on the blog what I just blurted out when I saw that about The Huckster. I say we call the IRS and lodge complaints against Bellevue. Maybe having their tax exempt status ripped from them will put some brain cells into the leadership's noodles.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Do you really think the IRS cares? Black churches have been welcoming Democratic candidates into their pulpits for years. Hillary spoke at a black church in Memphis just last week. At least Huckabee is an ordained minister and might actually preach. But it doesn't give a very good impression for him or for Bellevue to have a presidential candidate speak. Neither do those Huckabee campaign signs along the median on Appling.

You know, it's funny how on the one hand some preachers and churches complain about the government infringing on the church with laws they deem violate the "separation of church and state," but on the other hand those same churches and preachers don't seem to mind taking full advantage of the tax breaks granted religious organizations and ordained ministers by that same government. It's like having your cake and eating it, too.

Why, just this coming Sunday, Bellevue is planning to ordain two more staff members who can then take advantage of those same tax breaks. Sweet! I've never understood why ordained ministers are any more entitled to special tax breaks than any other group. Maybe someone can ask Mike Huckabee that Sunday night!

MOM4 said...

I can almost assure you all that Huckabee is not aware of the sexual pervert situation at Bellevue. He has cancelled other engagements because of questionable activities, I can almost betcha that if he knew about PW & Co., he would do the same..anyone know how to reach him?

gmommy said...

Mom4,
as soon as he cancelled he either recanted or went to another sexual predator church in Florida. Christa Brown did her best to inform....he KNOWS about BBC and the one he spoke at last week.

I don't want to hurt you but Huck KNOWS what's going on in these churches...he's still hitting the megas no matter what they cover.

I have friends that think he can do no wrong.....we've learned the hard way that just because one says they are a Christian and speaks from the Bible does not mean they stand on what the Bible teaches.
He is a politician.

Christa Brown said...

mom4: Huckabee's campaign was made well aware of the clergy abuse and cover-up scandal at Trinity Baptist in Jacksonville, FL. (It's a HUGE on-going scandal at that megachurch, but like Bellevue, it's a very powerful and influential church.) Within hours after SNAP's letter to him and SNAP's press release, he cancelled there. But then, the very next day, it was announced that he would speak there anyway, except he did it by live phone-in. You can read about it here and here, and there are links to the news articles about it at the bottom of the first posting.

If you want to contact Huckabee, the fax number for his campaign headquarters in Little Rock is (501) 324-2009 and email addresses are Scheduling@explorehuckabee.com and Pressroom@explorehuckabee.com.

Christa Brown
SNAP Baptist Outreach Director

Christa Brown said...

mom4 and others: Rather than writing to Huckabee, what I would recommend instead is that you write letters to the editor of the Commercial Appeal, reminding people that the child sex-abuse scandal at Bellevue has NOT been resolved because the senior pastor, who knew and kept quiet, nas not been held accountable. Even if a bunch of you write and only one letter gets published, it will still be seen by many, many more people than a letter or email sent to Huckabee's campaign headquarters. And Huckabee has already shown that a child sex-abuse and cover-up scandal won't stop him from speaking at a powerful church. As gmommy says, he's a politician.

NASS posted it earlier, but here's another link to the short article on it in the Commercial Appeal. It also allows for comments at the bottom of the article itself.

gmommy said...

Christa has a post on her site adressing Gov. Huckabee's visit to BBC
Nass, can you provide the link please?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Christa's blog.

Commercial Appeal article. Comments can be left at the bottom.

gmommy said...

Come out, come out, where EEVV Ver you are.... (sung like Glenda when singing for the munchkins to come out!:)

BkWormGirl said...

I just am logging on for the first time today or I would have spoken up sooner.

I am discouraged by the discussion of Mike Huckabee. I make no apologies, I feel Mike is the best candidate with regard to the issue that I value most. That being sanctity of life.

Someone mentioned he is acting like a politician. Well, he should be, he is running for the office of president, not for the office of preacher. The fact that he is a Christian, or that he was at one time a preacher does not diminish the fact that he is running for president at this time in his life.

This is a political decision. Where can he reach the MOST people in Memphis, on the Sunday night BEFORE primary. Which church offered him the pulpit? Bellevue. This is not the first time that Bellevue has opened its doors to politicians either I might add and some of which have not been good representatives of the kingdom of God. Mike's being at Bellevue is not an endorsement of anyone, nor is it stamp of approval.

I am not a person who works for Mike -so I am not speaking for him, possibly he would say something different. This is just my opinion and the way I see it.

I would encourage everyone to consider the candidates. And then to consider where we will be with each of the current running candidates as President of the United States.

gmommy said...

bkwormgirl,
I respect your opinion. I just have a different one.

gmommy said...

It is also my opinion that if we claim to be defenders of life...we must also be
defenders of the defenceless...
they go hand in hand in my heart.

...my comment is not to you personally BWG :)

concernedSBCer said...

bkworm girl: The answer to your question? We are in a heap of trouble.

You may think Mike Huckabee is the strongest Right to Life candidate, but when he was governor of AR he was not "life friendly" to the many special needs adults in his state currently living in places like the Conway Human Development Center. My brother lives there, and has for 30 years. It is a fine place where he has received excellent love, care, challenges, and an education. His physical necessities prohibit a different living environment. Huckabee thought it would be much better to move people like my brother out of their homes, buy them their own house, and have private duty staff come to take care of them. Let's just touch the surface of what is wrong with this plan.

Financially: There is no way it would be more cost effective to spread care out among the entire state as opposed to having it centralized in high-quality care centers. (and this is not an "institution"- it is their HOME.)

Socially: Instead of going to classes, delivering mail in his electric wheelchair, talking to people, etc. the residents, like my brother, would be forced to spend much time alone or with one person watching TV.

Medically: Care would not be as quick in coming, nor would daily changes and adjustments be as noticeable outside of a full-time living setup.

There is more to the sanctity of life, IMHO, than just avoiding abortions. There is also the quality of life following.

Mike Huckabee showed great failure in this area while Governor of Arkansas.

New BBC Open Forum said...

You know, I keep hearing people say they wouldn't vote for so-and-so because he or she is (or isn't) pro-choice. Bottom line is the president's opinion on that subject, one way or the other, doesn't matter that much. The president isn't going to repeal Roe vs. Wade. All the president can do is appoint Supreme Court justices who, if they're in the majority, could possibly choose to repeal it, and the likelihood of even a pro-life majority on the SC doing that aren't great. In fact, we have a conservative majority right now, and there's never been any movement toward repealing it. Another pro-life president isn't going to change that. GWB already appointed two conservative SC justices. Stevens, Scalia, Kennedy, and Ginsburg are the four who are anywhere close to retirement age, so it's something to consider. That would likely be a litmus test for any of the other Republican candidates in nominating SC justices, too. Personally, I can't get enthusiastic over any of the Republicans running this year.

concernedSBCer said...

Nass: Yes, it's definitely a "lessor of two evils". I frankly like Ron Paul the most but he doesn't seem to have a snowball's chance.......

I guess it's just going to have to be the least of the worst.

BkWormGirl said...

I understand we are not under old testament law, but I believe God gave us the OT for several reasons. Look at how God judged the Jews based on their leaders. I understand that Roe v Wade is a judicial branch prerogative, and only if the legislative branch would take up the cause would it become an issue in which the president is involved. However, for me a president who is willing to just look the other way while lives are executed - brings judgment on the entire nation.

Secondly, I think it is a HUGE flying leap to make the assumption that Huckabee (or frankly any candidate's) presence at BBC or any other church with a history - is an endorsement of that church's behavior. If the candidates are going to avoid churches that have done wrong - they will not be able to speak to collective groups of Christians. Every church has some skeleton either in their closets or on display.

Just my two cents... (And I am not trying to dismiss anyone's point of view either. Just presenting varying viewpoints.)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Considering the alternative, I would vote for Huckabee in the general election if he's nominated. I don't think that's going to happen, but I would. However, I found these articles interesting and troubling:

Huckabee Supports Kenneth Copeland

Mike Huckabee & Little Rock Ethics

A Son's Past Deeds

Lynn said...

bkwormgirl said...

I would encourage everyone to consider the candidates. And then to consider where we will be with each of the current running candidates as President of the United States.

9:29 PM, February 02, 2008

Huckabee is not a true conservative. If he was a true conservative, he would not want social programs. I've listened to all of the candidates and their ideas. Of those remaining, Mitt Romney seems to be the only one who understands the big picture. Huckabee and McCain on the republican side scare the daylights out of me to be honest. Huckabee for his policies in Arkansas, McCain scares me because of 2 bills. McCain-Feingold is a dagger into the 1st Amendment stifling free speech and allowing George Soros to run amuck. McCain-Kennedy otherwise known as the Amnesty Bill for Illegals (Something Huckabee wants as well).

If it was just about Domestic issues, I would actually go for Ron Paul because he is a strict constitutionalist. Sadly, he doesn't understand foreign policy.

Mitt Romney has the business experience necessary to run the country. He turned around Massachussetts and the Salt Lake City Olympics.


The fact of the matter is, right now, our top concern should be the Economy. If our economy does into the tank, we are screwed. As it is right now, we have the Saudi Government bailing out our banks. We won the Cold War because we caused the Soviet Union to spend itself into Oblivion. Sadly, History is now repeating itself with it being us that is spending ourselves into oblivion. If the economy fails, we lose everything basically.

As for pro-life, pro-choice, right now, that issue is irrelevant because the president and congress cannot reverse Roe v. Wade, only the Supreme Court, and unfortunately, I do not see this happening any time soon.

Lynn said...

Oh yeah,

Mike Vick would be proud of Huckabee's son.

BkWormGirl said...

Concerned -

I don't think that by any means Mike is the best politician that has ever lived. I like him, and in this election cycle I feel he is the best. I am aware of what he did with adults with special needs. I think he took some really bad advice. And I think to those people who were affected he should in some way attempt to make it right, at a minimum he needs to apologize for the harm done.

I also know things he did very well in Arkansas with regard to quality of life. He was the first to promote assistance for people with mental health issues. He was the first to help women who became mothers because of rape to receive additional support. The truth is, like every politician, he did some things really well, and other things, he did not do well with. I just don't intend to throw my vote away. Others, I am sure feel the same way or to take the Dobson position and just not vote. (And I understand that for many - apparently most on this blog - to vote for Mike would be to throw away your vote - and I think that is a sign of how bad of shape we are in this election cycle. Without conservatives voting in unison, I think we will definitely end up with a president who will oppose most things Christians hold dear.)

BkWormGirl said...

Nass -
I am not trying to be argumentative - honestly I am not - but if we do not choose Mike on primary day - who is to blame for having no better alternative on election day? It really is down to a five person race - Obama, Clinton, Romney, McCain, and Huckabee. Who is better for Christians? Who should we be casting a vote for on Tuesday?

concernedSBCer said...

bkworm girl: I have no intention of throwing my vote away. I do think there are several better candidates than "Mike" and I will have to go that way.

You make a good point, however, in that the Christians are certainly feeling disenfranchised this cycle, and with the GWB betrayals fresh on our minds, it's a hard path to walk. But a note on Dobson.....he's been a little "out there" lately and I think I'll let my Bible and my conscience do my deciding, not Dobson. Again, JMHO. :-)

New BBC Open Forum said...

bkwormgirl wrote:

"I understand that Roe v Wade is a judicial branch prerogative, and only if the legislative branch would take up the cause would it become an issue in which the president is involved."

And that is the key -- congress. I'm much more concerned about having a Democratic congress (or a wishy washy Republican congress like we had a couple of years ago) because as long as they're in charge Roe vs. Wade doesn't stand a snowball's chance of being repealed.

gmommy said...

Huck's son and the tortured dog tells me there is a big ugly skeleton in the closet.
That freaks me out.

New BBC Open Forum said...

bkwormgirl,

No problem. I know you're not being argumentative. We just have some different opinions about things. I'm sure we agree on a lot more things than we disagree about, but we're all just throwing out our opinions.

concernedSBCer said...

Exactly, Nass....sharing information in the midst of a good and better situation with no "Best."

New BBC Open Forum said...

If Hillary is the Dems' nominee, this will be my choice.

gmommy said...

did everyone know about the son but me???
Dalmer tortured animals before he killed and ate people!!! I'm going to have major nightmares!

New BBC Open Forum said...

gmommy,

Me, too.

gmommy said...

does the Bible say WHO will sound the trumpet??
I want to get in front of the line!!!

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