Monday, January 14, 2008

Darrell Gilyard Arrested While Patterson Attempts Damage Control

There's already been some discussion here about Darrell Gilyard, the pastor who recently resigned from his position as senior pastor of Shiloh Metropolitan Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida over allegations of sending sexually explicit text messages to the teenage daughter of a member of his congregation.

Jacksonville Sheriff's Office Booking Photo

One of Gilyard's victims has started a blog...

Let's Stop Pastor Darrell Gilyard Together

The Jacksonville media is covering the story:

Channel 4

Channel 12/25 (NBC/ABC)

Channel 30/47 (FOX/CBS)

Florida Times-Union (newspaper)

FBC Jax Watchdog

Stop Baptist Predators

Fred Franklin, an attorney for Shiloh, issued this statement:

"The leaders of Shiloh Baptist Church take these matters seriously and are committed to a full and through review of all pertinent facts. Pastor Gilyard has decided and proposed that he voluntarily take an indefinite, paid, administration leave of absence pending such review. The church has agreed to his proposal. Once a review of all the facts is completed, the church will proceed accordingly."

Paige Patterson is now rushing to do damage control. In his own words...

(Observe his body language.)

PP now: "I never asked anybody... to... remain quiet about anything."

Really??? <---------- Click here.

Quote in the same 1991 article from The Dallas Morning News from one of Gilyard's victims regarding her meeting with PP:

"In 1989, she says she made an appointment with Paige Patterson, one of the most prominent figures in the Southern Baptist Convention. 'Darrell was there with his wife and an attorney,' the woman said. 'He confronted me and said I wore suggestive clothing. I don't even own suggestive clothing.'

"'Paige Patterson asked me to refrain from speaking to anybody about this. He said unless I came back with two witnesses or proof that something had happened, not to come back.'"


PP now: "Uhhh... Mr. Gilyard is... is... ahhh... is uhhh... uhhh... very convincing... , and uhhhhhh... he always denied them."

From the 1991 article:

"Mr. Gilyard admitted, Dr. Patterson said, to several sexual relationships with women."

PP now: "I told uhhh... uhhhhhh... Darrell... at the time, when it happened... that he was... now disqualified for the pastorate and should never go into the pastorate again."

From the same article:

"Dr. Patterson said he has withdrawn all support from Mr. Gilyard - and has asked that the pastor and his wife attend a two-week rehabilitation session. 'Mr. Gilyard is no longer qualified to pastor a church,' said Dr. Patterson. He also asked Mr. Gilyard not preach or pastor a church for two years -- and then only if he can prove he has been rehabilitated. 'In retrospect, Darrell should have been in counseling all along,' Dr. Patterson said."

It's been my observation when someone, especially an accomplished speaker like PP, "uhhhs and ahhhs" and stumbles on his words like this, he's dancing around the truth if not outright lying. Remember this and this?

Reporter now: "He [PP] said he warned Southern Baptists about Gilyard, but Shiloh is not Southern Baptist. Dr. Patterson says that didn't matter."

PP now (emphatically nodding head affirmatively): "The leadership of the church [Shiloh] was fully aware of the fact that all of this had gone down."

Question for Dr. Patterson: Did you personally make them aware that "all of this had gone down"?

Other memorable quotes from the article:

"First Baptist [Dallas] officials said they knew of the allegations of sexual misconduct, which began as long as four years ago [c. 1987] when Mr. Gilyard was removed as assistant pastor of Concord Missionary Baptist Church in Oak Cliff. But they said they did not believe those allegations, and continued to recommend him. 'We were dealing with a man of special gifts and talents,' Dr. Patterson said. 'I was unwilling to call anyone guilty until I had demonstratable evidence that these allegations were true.' Dr. Patterson said that according to Scriptures, action cannot be taken against a minister accused of adultery unless there are two or more witnesses. He also asked for any other proof, such as photographs, videotapes or laboratory tests."

Would someone please show me that Scripture?

"In the interim, the dynamic preacher became even more visible.

"In addition to frequent appearances on Old Time Gospel Hour, he maintained a heavy speaking schedule across the country, drawing huge crowds wherever he spoke. Most recently, he shared a platform with Iran-contra figure Oliver North at the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta. 'Their greed eclipsed their vision of reality,' said the Rev. E.K. Bailey, pastor of Concord Missionary Baptist Church, where Mr. Gilyard had been removed in 1987 amid allegations of sexual improprieties. Others, such as Dr. Patterson, paint Mr. Gilyard as a victim. 'It's amazing,' Dr. Patterson said, 'how jealousy, frustration and racism can be motives for making accusations.'"


Jealousy? Frustration? Racism? Oh, why am I not surprised! Darrell Gilyard is the "victim." PW is the "victim." Tommy Gilmore was the "victim." Poor things! Those women and children forced themselves on these men!

"The Rev. Darrell Gilyard built Victory on conservative values, particularly when it came to women. He would not allow them to usher, serve on the finance committee, teach men or take classes with them.

"But outside the church, according to the women who claim to have been victimized by him, Mr. Gilyard spent most of his time with women."


Well, of course he would teach this twisted extra-Scriptural "theology." So do Paige Patterson and Steve Gaines. No surprise there.

Stay tuned.

200 comments:

sickofthelies said...

I just read the news stories regarding this and I was quite amused by this paragraph:

Brian Coughlin, an attorney for Gilyard also issued a statement to CBS47 and FOX30 over the weekend. "In light of the recent issues that have been brought to the attention of Pastor Gilyard and leaders of Shiloh Baptist Church, a joint decision has been made by Pastor Gilyard and the leaders of Shiloh Baptist Church for the Pastor to voluntarily move to take an indefinite paid administrative leave. During this time a thorough and complete review of the facts will be conducted and once those are known all will proceed accordingly," Coughlin said.

I'm sorry, but does anyone really BELIEVE that a " thorough and complete" investigation will be conducted?

Wonder if they are using the good ole boys from BBC to do their investigation?

Maybe they should ship some of the glassy-eyed congregants from BBC down there to make excuses for him:

1) It happened a long time ago
2) He only did it once
3) He only had one victim

SAME SONG, SECOND VERSE!!

gmommy said...

bkwormgirl,
I wrote a response to your last post and it was late getting posted....it's on the other thread.

oc said...

I will just say this...I have a daughter.
I won't share in detail, but I know what I would do to him.

And then you could visit me in prison, as long as I had the "time", and not the "big penalty", and you could pray for my soul 24/7, and I would still not repent for what I have done to him.

Now think me hell bound.


Jussayin'.
oc.

New BBC Open Forum said...

To repeat...

gmommy said...

Bkwormgirl,
I relate and stand with you...but that's all I can do. I don't have any answers.
Have you been reading the blog for long?
What made you leave BBC before the PW issue???? I guess you are not young as in your 20's if your abuse happened 20 years ago.

The stuff at BBC has caused me to rethink alot of things.
It makes me sick that I dug my heels in and would not be run away from my church...first,when I became no longer married...
then when I had my encounter of the sick kind with PW and was blown off by all the people I told.

I probably would not have done the research on the SBC and become aware of all that I know now had I left a long time ago.

I may have had real role models for my son instead of the appearance of Christian men I had from BBC.
Lots of "what ifs".

But you are right...
betrayal is betrayal....it pulls those old scabs off and we bleed all over again. And when our blood gets near other people that haven't been humbled by suffering...well, they just don't like it.
So you know what????
We clean our wounds when we are able and then they become our banner of courage.
What can we lose by speaking the truth and confronting evil when others shrink and hide behind self righteousness, lies, oaths or excuses?
We didn't die or give up when we could have....so we live...and we never settle for counterfeit or superficial again.

8:19 PM, January 14, 2008

BkWormGirl said...

With regard to this matter of Mr. Gilyard. I don't want to rush to judgment but it does indeed seem that the man has lost his way.

Maybe there needs to be some sort of ethics/morality/intelligence type of test or licensure requirements for these guys.

GMommy -
I have been reading this bog since about the first or second week it was up. I am not really sure, back when it was first announced on the news one night. I left BBC because of Gaines arrogance.

There was a Sunday when he went on a rabbit trail about the music. And pretty much took people to task for complaining about the changes to the music department. During the service, I laughed, thought he was funny, and even agreed. I got in the car, and was so convicted and I realized that he was TOTALLY out of line. Furthermore, I felt like I had just watch him clobber a bunch of those people he was supposed to be leading. That was the last Sunday I attended. I stayed with my weekday stuff for a while longer, but began searching for where I would go at that time. I realized that a man like that, who could get me to laugh at sin, was not the man I wanted to guide me or my family. As time progressed, I knew that my "gut" instinct about him was right. As evidence began to mount, it just became mind boggling to me that any person would stay under him.

And no I am not in my twenties... some days I wish I could go back to being twenty, a lot of things I would like to do different. Other days, no thanks. I am in my thirties... for whatever that is worth.

Peace to all tonight.

BkWormGirl said...

Thanks Gmommmy and to Nass as well for reposting. I had read it and was typing a reply. (Been a long and busy day, and I am moving slower than normal... sorry.)

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
BkWormGirl said...

OC - I agree. There was a story that came out just this week down in Dallas. A stepfather attacked his stepson. That was the headline. When you actually read, the stepson had raped the man's 8 year old daughter (perp and victim were step siblings) - the step father did to the stepson what had been done to his daughter. The Dallas County Sheriff's office was encouraging everyone to remember that there is a justice system in place, and all that. But frankly, I felt justice was pretty well served in that case.

May I join with you ... "just sayin"

BkWormGirl said...

OC - you could share the message of truth with him... and help him be humbled to his knees... it could be a divinely orchestrated.

gmommy said...

bkwormgirl,
But why did you never join us before?????
Just nosy.....

BkWormGirl said...

Having now read all those links...

The church waited a month. Who is going to be charged with obstruction of Justice or some related charge on that. Deacons knew about it and did not report it?

And Paige Patterson claims he said this guy should not pastor... yet still he continued to mentor him? I don't understand? Does that make sense to anyone else?

oc said...

No, no Bookwormgirl.
I would never respond in kind. It wouldn't be right. And it wouldn't be enough.


jussayin'.
oc.

gmommy said...

Is there a way to make an honest living that doesn't require dealing with lazy, jealous, or entitlement people??????
just wondering.....

BkWormGirl said...

Gmommy - I did post way back when under a different name... that I really can't quite remember (kind of sort of... but not enough to take an oath on it.)

And honestly, I needed to take some time and heal a little. I don't think I could accurately and concisely state how devastated I was by this entire mess. I have emailed with various people on this blog over time. But like a wounded animal, I needed to limp away for awhile and try to lick my wounds and get some relief. The cost of my speaking up and saying the truth about Gaines was much higher than I ever anticipated. And my personal wounds and losses were much greater than I could handle.

It has been over 16 months since I was so horribly wounded again. I am trying to believe that there are real Christians in this world who do not execute the wounded. Can blogging be an act of faith and obedience... yes, I believe it can be. (Email me, my info is on profile, if you would like to talk about it. I just don't feel like giving my story on the blog.)

gmommy said...

bkwormgirl.....we can't make sense of things that are senseless.....or lies or deceit.
that's why our minds are boggled and we wonder what we missed.
We didn't miss anything.....nothing makes sense when dishonesty is involved.

I'm so tired of it....
how does Christa keep her energy up????....
as soon as my adrenal glands work again, I am going to try the rock n roll guy she listens to....and maybe take up running....

gmommy said...

Thanks BWG

BkWormGirl said...

OC Said:
And it wouldn't be enough.

I say:
AMEN. There is an old theory in Criminal Justice theory that goes like this... "The punishment must endure and exceed the price the victim must pay."

oc said...

Years ago, in Texas, someone exposed themselves in front of my 9 year old little girl.


I was not charged for how I responded.

jussayin'.
oc.

oc said...

And yes, I laid hands on him. Had a hard time praying for him though.


But some fellow Christians helped me through it.

jussayin'.
oc.

gmommy said...

Hey BWG,
I can't remember my gmommy email password....and my other one has all my business info. Would you mind emailing nass first.
Please forgive me for wanting to make sure you are OK before I completely reveal myself. I hope you understand. I would like to get to know you better!

oc said...

And I was a golden glove boxer, so the "perp" was taking a well deserved "nap" when police arrived.

In short, he plead "no contest" and was put on probation and had to register as a sexual offender. He served no time. Justice has not yet prevailed.

jussayin'.
oc.

eprov said...

oc.....
we didn't know ye had it in ye! LOL
Wasn't it the Apostle Paul who said that "a man that won't defend his own household is worse than an infidel." Not sure of the context but I like the thot!

on the subject of pastor's who 'play'.....sorry but maybe I became calloused many years ago. I just thot it was part of the picture. I have retreated to find my solace and reality in the Word.

and bkwormgirl....one of SG's 1st Sundays he made a denigrating comment with a smirk on his face and I read volumes from that. The story was complete for me!~ Anytime it is obvious the issue is about power and greed versus humility and service, I am out.

gmommy.....it is a tough world out there. You just have to bang heads with them. The victory is yours!

sayin' justly.

watchman said...

Hmmmmm

Lets' see.....

30 or more years of teaching churches and pastors and nations that true love tolerates and excuses evil " judge not" is emphasized over the command to exercise righteous and unhypocritical judgement and to examine and to test all things. ...and 30 or more years of removing the God ordained doctrine of Church discipline, for fear of man , rather than God.

yeaaa...yeaaaa......

the news all fits and makes total sense...

You can't remove God from Church and still have a Church, you only have a boys club.

God knew that when He inspired His Written Word snd commanded men to follow him, not the ever changing supposedly enlightened culture.

Go back to the OLD PATHS...

watchman said...

First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals to hold conference on " Church Discipline" the forgotten and abandoned and now hidden key to True Church Growth.

CHURCH DISCIPLINE CONFERENCE

concernedSBCer said...

Bookworm Girl: I am so impressed that you saw the arrogance in SG.

You said "I realized that a man like that, who could get me to laugh at sin, was not the man I wanted to guide me or my family."

AMEN!!!!!

And the thing that makes me sick is that the laughing was for his gain. I still can't understand why he kept PW on for 6+ months after he knew. But I get this uncomfortable gut reaction that it's because PW has something on him. There just had to be a reason.....of course, I guess it could be plain sheer stupidity.....

concernedSBCer said...

This was posted on the FBCJax blog and I think it bears repeating here. A subject in the past has been the "called" question of some mega-pastors. Somewhow, a lowly servant of God and huge salaries with endless perks doesn't add up.

"Called preachers don't seek fame and fortune and build wealth for their families at the expense of their church members. Called preachers don't keep their church members in the dark and clandestinely change the bylaws without a single word to their church. Called preachers don't use their sanctuary for a non-Christian event that might possibly confuse the people in their community of their need for Christ, just to appease some interests of influential deacons."

Certainly something to think about.

Lin said...

"a joint decision has been made by Pastor Gilyard and the leaders of Shiloh Baptist Church for the Pastor to voluntarily move to take an indefinite paid administrative leave."

Wow, tithe dollars being used to pay him while he does not work. These people drank the kool aid of following a mere man. It is not like this arrest is any big shock!

MOM4 said...

32 years,
In comparison, I think of Billy Graham and his infirmities. I had the opportunity of seeing him when he was in Nashville a few years ago and while he had to have a hand from his son, Franklin, to get to the pulpit, the Lord held him up to preach. One would have never known that the man was ill when the Lord gave him strength to share His Holy Word. Something to think about....who is holding up SG?

westtnbarrister said...

I was unaware of his past problems, so this news concerning Darrell Gilyard saddens me. At one time he was championed by some of the SBC elites like Jerry Falwell and W.A. Criswell. The story of his childhood was at once amazing, sad, and heart-warming. I have heard him preach outstanding sermons and I can remember at least two wonderful sermons he preached at BBC in the early 90's.

Gilyard's downfall is further evidence that personality and skill behind a pulpit tell us nothing about a man's character or heart. This ought to serve as another cautionary tale, reminding us of the importance of God's standards. Had Gilyard's congregation followed God's standards for ministry when selecting a pastor, this would not have happened. The Bible is clear, adultery is a permanent reproach, rendering the guilty unfit for ministry in the local church. Gilyard was disqualified for ministry before he ever arrived in Jacksonville, Florida.

Lynn said...

32yrs@bbc said...

Off subject: Did anyone perchance attend or listen to BBC this past Sunday evening? It seems SG asked for a chair to sit in while preaching - said "I get tired sometimes standing while preaching so tonight I'll sit this one out if no one minds." Thought that strange. Message was on Bellevue loving Memphis, his visit with the illustrous mayor, BBC is a mission church and Memphis is a mission field. Then he diverted to the subj. of physical healing which seemed totally out of context. Talked about "the thousands of pills" he's had to take since 2000
and how he was praying for healing.
Thought: is the mysathenia gravis
getting worse in spite of the meds or (as someone has suggested) was sitting in the chair just another
attempt at having a more casual service. Just wondering.

6:38 AM, January 15, 2008


I heard he banged up his knee a couple weeks ago. I don't know how though.

gmommy said...

where is 32years' post???????

eprov,
I hate banging heads!!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

gmom,

32+ didn't have a trashcan and asked me to delete it. Being the good sheep that I am, I obliged.

GF Baker said...

I am so saddened to see that the story of Pastor Gilyard are true! I have heard him preach in the past and I really enjoyed his sermons. With us living overseas, I lost contact with his ministry.

Can this be the beginning of the great falling away? Who are we to trust to quide us? Naturally we should not put man on a pedistal, and our faith should be in God. It does rock one to the core when somone you trust with helping to guide our families to conform to Christ's image turns out to be nothing more than a con man.

Of course as christians, we are obligated to pray for them, but it shakes us to the foundation that someone we trusted with private issues turns out to not be worthy of the trust we gave them.

Since we have had illness in our family and my husband and I have been unable to attend church, the last visit we had from our pastor, was to be treated like Job. (maybe unconfessed sin, unworthy communion or just God's will) We have not had anyone call to check on us for over 2 yrs. I have 2 friends that call occassionally (they have complicated lives themselves.)

I have found more fellowship online from others of the walking wounded.

Has the 'modern church' left it's first love? Are we now seeing the beginning of Christians being hidden away?

I still love Christ with all my heart. I love to talk about Him when I meet people in person or online. I just am really shy abou trying to find my way to a church where the leaders can be trusted. I don't know that I could survive betrayal for a 4th time.

In Christ,
MrsP
Alabama

32yrs@bbc said...

Anyone hear Chuck Swindoll this a.m.? He stood before his people
broken hearted and humbled to the point of tears - not because of any personal sin but because of the sin of adultery of two of his staff members. It was obvious his heart was breaking over sin that broke the heart of God. He made it clear that both had been immediately released from their jobs, and he made no excuses for them nor sympathized with them. He then gave a powerful message to his people on the consequences of
sin against a holy God, and he encouraged their hearts for the days ahead. The service was ended with both congregation and choir singing all 4 stanzas of Holy, Holy Holy. Sin was dealt with, God was glorified, and the people comforted and edified.

Contrast that with the way the leadership handled the PW case.
There is no comparison.

gmommy said...

gfbaker,
Welcome! We understand and empathize. I'm very grateful for the internet as you are!!

concernedSBCer said...

gf baker: You ask many interesting questions. It does seem sometimes that those "in management " shoot the wounded, doesn't it? I must admit to you that I have found a strong "congregation" on this blog (and with those I have met in person) and it has filled a great need in my heart. I wanted to talk about serious things, and it seems so many Christians lean more towards the fluff of things. "God is good, all the time" and "Come just as you are" rhetoric saddens and frustrates me. It is good to find like-minded believers that sharpen iron to iron and encourage at the same time.

Welcome to our little family!

sickofthelies said...

gf baker

Welcome!!!

You can talk to us anytime on here..we will be here for you!!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

MrsP ("gf baker"),

Welcome! If you don't mind my asking, were you ever a member of Gardendale?

I'm truly sorry you've been treated like a leper by your pastor and church. While Bellevue is out "loving Memphis," I'm afraid many of the Bellevue sheep have been treated similarly.

If we were in Alabama we'd come visit you! But since we aren't, you're more than welcome to hang out with us here.

{{{{{hugs}}}}}

all2jesus said...

Megachurch Leader Charged With Perjury

Not a Baptist this time, at least...

New BBC Open Forum said...

EthicsDaily.com on Darrell Gilyard.

GF Baker said...

No, I wasn't a member or Gardendale. I did attend a concert and I think it was at Gardendale that we took our youth group.

I attended a small baptist church where my entire family was active in almost everything that went on.

I am getting over it and trying to not let the seeds of bitterness grow. It is hard when my husband is so sick and the only 'friends' are family.

Thank you for your welcomes. I began reading the blog over a year ago and then had to drop away for a time because it was pretty rough to see just how deep the curruption was taking over the congregation. It is like a cancer that just continues to fester and ooze and do further damage.

This is why the Father wanted us to use church discipline. If we can't hold each other more accountable, we become a mockery to the world by our witness, but most importantly, we become a mockery in worship to God.

32yrs@bbc said...

According to Tiffiany Croft, one of Darrell Gilyard's victims:
"Croft, who started a blog encouraging others with knowledge of past sexual misconduct by Gilyard to come forward to help police in their investigation, said she believes both Vines and Patterson were in over their heads and did not know how to handle the situation, and that both made mistakes."
-----------------------------
Can someone explain to me WHY Vines and Patterson, both seasoned
spiritual leaders, would NOT know
WHAT to do with the information of
sexual immorality regarding Gilyard? Could it be the fear of
litigation and the potential loss of funds or negative publicity (the
fear of man) have over-ruled their fear of Almighty HOLY God?

I believe Ms Croft is being too kind. BTW we have heard the same
excuse: "He was over his head and did not know how to handle the situation."

Lord, have mercy upon us, your people, for we are helpless and hopeless without You. Raise up leaders among us who are men of courage and integrity, who do justly, love mercy and walk humbling before their God. Amen.

eprov said...

my opinion is that pastor abuses occur, are ignored, excused, even encouraged with the 'touch not mine anointed' phrase that is loosely and wrecklessly thrown around, and most of the time by the very pastors who are abusers.
Deacon groups who facilitate this are equally guilty because the empower pastors.
I don't think this portends the great falling away. Rather bringing these issues to light will ultimately reverse some of these harmful trends.
The financial and sexual abuses are rampant based on my internal exposure as a preacher's kid and serving on church staffs.
The secular world of business where there is responsibility to stockholders (owners!) would never allow this!
But the church??? God help us.
I am glad my faith is grounded in the Word, otherwise I would join Cakes! (that's a joke)

watchman said...

GF

amen

God commands that parents discipline their children, or else He declares that parents who will not discipline their children actually hate their own childrens souls.

God also commands that correction occur in the Body of Christ..for the soul of the individual and the BODY as well..

Evil men in Churches and evil worldly influences have so shaped our seminaries and poisoned our collective minds, that the Church is reeling in a cesspool of sin and corruption and no one seemingly can see that holiness and correction were never options, they were standards that were commanded to be kept, in the name of spiritual safety and bringing glory, not shame upon the Lord Himself.

Judgement begins a the House of The Lord..

A fool despiseth correction..but a wise person seeketh correction.

The leaders of Shiloh Baptist are just as culpable as their now exposed formert pastor. The world sees their shame and complicity in shameful cover up of what they knew to be true and then covered over many years before text messages were even technolgically possible.

The leadership of Shiloh have become partakers in the sin of their approved and " appointed one".
Disgusting and Dishonoring bunch of em. They allowed and empowered this man to continue his actions and will answer to God foremost and hopefully to the victims here on earth as well.

To GOD be GLORY>

New BBC Open Forum said...

32+ wrote:

"BTW we have heard the same
excuse: "'He was over his head and did not know how to handle the situation.'"


Awww... but it was "uncharted waters." These "men of God" are supposed to be the captains of their ships, and in all these cases the lowly crew have been the only ones who've known how to steer the ship. These guys are quick to tell everyone how to keep their womenfolk and children in line, but when it comes to controlling one of their own, they're clueless. As someone who used to post here was fond of saying (though always about us), "That's pathetic."

If these "men" were real men, the likes of PW and Darrell Gilyard would have "walked the plank" ages ago.

watchman said...

32yrs@bbc

You are 100% on target..

The fear of man bringeth a snare...

Fear of litigation has molded the minds of many a board member who have acted as though God should be only obeyed when there is no potential for a lawsuit.

I know of many a board member of Bible and Baptist Churches who have told me privately that I would be astonised at just how little Biblical Church discipline is ever accomplished due to FEAR of the court system and lawyers.

Money and Fear of Man rules most churches with cowards in the leadership roles.

Where are the men of GOD, who would rather obey GOD and let the courts and public opinion close the doors of The Church before even once entertaining the idea of WILLFULLY DISOBEYING and displeasing their LORD?

Time for a house cleaning..willfully disobedient and cowardly man pleasing wimps make lousy shepherds.

Juss sayin'

ezekiel said...

Amos 9:8"Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful kingdom,
And I will destroy it from the face of the earth;
Nevertheless, I will not totally destroy the house of Jacob,"
Declares the LORD.
9"For behold, I am commanding,
And I will shake the house of Israel among all nations
As grain is shaken in a sieve,
But not a kernel will fall to the ground.
10"All the sinners of My people will die by the sword,
Those who say, 'The calamity will not overtake or confront us.'


The sifting has begun. The fire has been kindled. Judgement is upon the CHURCH.

Isaiah 64,65,66

GF, you will find the ONE who is to lead us in EZ 34 and John 1. The WORD.

sickofthelies said...

oc said:

Time for a house cleaning..willfully disobedient and cowardly man pleasing wimps make lousy shepherds.


Oc, those words should live in infamy.

watchman said...

sotl..

YEAAA those words should live in infamy

But then I would have to sue oc for plagarism : )))))

juss sayin..and

juss kiddin too

watchman said...

Great new internet tool just begun today

VCY TV

VIDEOS WITH BIBLICAL TRUTH

arranged by topic for BELEIVERS

VCY TV DEBUTS TODAY

Junkster said...

Page Patterson, in the 1991 newsaper article:
"Mr. Gilyard is no longer qualified to pastor a church," said Dr. Patterson. He also asked Mr. Gilyard not preach or pastor a church for two years -- and then only if he can prove he has been rehabilitated.

Paige Patterson, in the recent TV interview:
"I told uhhh... uhhhhhh... Darrell... at the time, when it happened... that he was... now disqualified for the pastorate and should never go into the pastorate again."

Looks like either Patterson misquoted back in 1991 or he has a bad memory about what he told Gilyard back then.

So which is it? Never pastor again, or just sit out for a couple of years and then go back to it? Does "disqualified" mean no longer qualified, or just not qualified at the moment? I'd like to see the verses used to support the idea of being "re-qualified"!

(No answers needed, I already know ... just pointing out the inconsistency.)

Junkster said...

From the 1991 article:
Dr. Patterson said that according to Scriptures, action cannot be taken against a minister accused of adultery unless there are two or more witnesses. He also asked for any other proof, such as photographs, videotapes or laboratory tests.

NASS asks:
Would someone please show me that Scripture?

Junkster replies:
I think he is referring to this: Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 1 Timothy 5:19

However, it says nothing about "proof", just 2 or 3 witnesses. One would think that several women coming forward saying they all had very simlar experiences would meet that criteria. Unless you took the passage to mean that multiple people must have been present to witness the same act -- but how likely is it that he would have propositioned, raped, or had a sexual affair with a woman while other people were around to witness it?

sickofthelies said...

oh, watchman, i'm so sorry..I got it mixed up!!! :(

YOU are the one with the prophetic words...

Well, they SHOULD live in infamy.

OC, get your own infamiotic words!!!

( ok, I don't know if that is really a word, I think I just made it up...am I allowed to do that?)

:)

watchman said...

As disgusted as I am with predatory ministers and hope theyand all who enable them are exposed and brought to justice; I cannot but help to speak out against the front page of this blog with regard to this topic.

I was very disappointed that in the topic page of this forum today...the story of Darrell Gilyard has now apparently been hijacked and wrongly utilized as a convenient weapon of choice to try to imply that holding to historical Biblical understandings of the role of women in the Body of Christ is to dove-tail with the very well documented allegations of sexual wrongdoing of one man.

If Darrell Gilyard is guilty , he should pay and should have payed when the first hints of trouble surfaced.

but to make the following assertions to seek to redefine the Bible because of the alleged actions of one minister is hardly wisdom, but rather, an emotional tirade, if not an indication of an agenda that supercedes reason and logic.

The following statements on the topic page preceeding.says it all:

QUOTE

The Rev. Darrell Gilyard built Victory on conservative values, particularly when it came to women. He would not allow them to usher, serve on the finance committee, teach men or take classes with them.

But outside the church, according to the women who claim to have been victimized by him, Mr. Gilyard spent most of his time with women.

Unquote:

Let the Bible speak for itself; and lets' try not to inject personal vendettas and agendas onto any who disagree with a feminist re-interpretation of The Bible and who then exhibit raw emotion and anger toward all men who disagree with them....resulting in awful and Unholy character assassination....

as if saying that any or all men who disagree with a feminist view of Gods' WORD are either predators, closet predators, or freinds to sexual predators. Wow... That would be quite a long list of apostles, Church fathers, martyrs, etc. and is a horrible axe to grind.

That is emotive agenda driven hysteria on parade...and should also not be ignored.

my two cents

amazed said...

Hey folks...Strange things have been going on in Baptist churches for a long long time. Most of the time the average church member just didn't know. There use to be an old saying, if you really wanted to know about a church--go to work it. I did for a few years and yes it was a revelation.

Now days, the www has changed the equation and information is spread and shared almost immediately.

Don't let one man or a congregation inflict pain on you. Right now I don't care one bit what SG and his flock do because I'm no longer a part of that sham.

Lin said...

A dear friend of mine, a former missionary to a muslim country, wrote this on another blog where the discussion is also about false teaching and bad behavior with leaders.

The insights may sound drastic but think about it. When we pair false teaching on earthly 'authority' with a broad description of what constitutes 'gossip', the ground is laid for people to not say a word about either false teaching or bad behavior of religious leaders.

We all have seen it. Gaines: Touch not the anointed one. And everyone on this blog is a gossip or bitter, etc.

Anyway here is this persons musings:

Second musing:
Yesterday, saw in the news that a film has been made about Jesus by a Muslim, Talebzadeh. (I’ll let you google rather than inserting links).

Muslims have a great respect for Jesus. He is a great prophet. Muslims also have in their faith a Messiah - the Mahdi. In great summation, Muslims believe that the Mahdi will return one day, and that the prophet Jesus will be at his side.

When I was mopping the floor last night and thinking about this film, thinking about the Mahdi, about how the Patriarchs define “gossip” and “End Times” I was struck by a number of things:

1. The Mahdi and the “prophet” Jesus just sound and awful lot like the Antichrist and the false prophet. For that particular group of people, the foundation is already laid to put their faith in those two entities.

2. Gossip is now defined so broadly and so extremely by the Patriarchy Movement , that I can imagine in the Great Tribulation, people would be unable to warn each other about what was going on as that would fall under “gossip.”(Scott Brown, NCFIC director has written an interesting sermon on this that you can find in Hope Baptist Church’s sermon archives. Note from me..he teaches Patriarchy)

Yes, I know that is extreme, but evidently, we aren’t able to warn each NOW for the same reason!

So, you have 2 of the 3 major world religions prepped and ready for great deception during the Tribulation.

Interesting.

(Please know that I am not commenting on when the rapture will take place, I’m just musing on what is going on the Spiritual world right now.)

Lin said...

"The Rev. Darrell Gilyard built Victory on conservative values, particularly when it came to women. He would not allow them to usher, serve on the finance committee, teach men or take classes with them."

What on earth do you do about Phoebe?

concernedSBCer said...

Junk: I noticed those contradictions too. Can you say "backstroke?" PP is trying to distance himself from the mess.

Lin said...

Junk, this is a great embarrassment for Patterson. His 'quotes' are not matching. Funny how the 'past' keeps catching up with him.

However, he has a great photo opportunity coming up in spring. he has announced for the 100th commencement at SWBTS, everyone is required to wear cowboy hats.

That should do it. :o)

concernedSBCer said...

Lin: Please tell me you are kidding.

ezekiel said...

Junkster,

I remember you being very competent in Greek/Hebrew? If I remember correctly, the word witness as we define (Eyewitness) is a bit different than the Greek/Hebrew meaning.

Can you help us with that? In other words is there room in the Greek/Hebrew to interpet witness as "supporters" or something similar rather than the "eyewitness" we tend to think of as it relates tou our justice system?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Golly, watchman. I was just starting to like you again! :-) No personal vendetta here, no agendas, no "feminist re-interpretation" of the Bible (how about just an accurate interpretation for a change?), no raw emotion or anger towards anyone who disagrees. The only anger about this topic I've seen around here has come from you. You have apparently mistaken lively discussion and passion for "raw emotion" and "anger."

"... as if saying that any or all men who disagree with a feminist view of Gods' WORD are either predators, closet predators, or freinds to sexual predators. Wow... That would be quite a long list of apostles, Church fathers, martyrs, etc. and is a horrible axe to grind."

It certainly would be, but that's not what I said. Saying that it's no surprise Gilyard holds a patriarchal interpretation (and that's what it is -- an interpretation) of the Bible plus a whole lot of extra-Biblical stuff is not saying that anyone who ascribes to the patriarchal interpretation is any of the things you listed. And please show me, for example, where in the Bible it says anything remotely resembling the idea that women can't be ushers or take classes with men or be on the finance committee.

"That is emotive agenda driven hysteria on parade...and should also not be ignored."

Oh, puhleaze. What a typical response to anyone who dares disagree with the pats -- "emotional, hysterical women." And the ubiquitous "F" word! Of course, the word "hysteria" is derived from the Greek word "hystera," which means "uterus," ergo... well, I think we get the idea. Not sure how that fits the many men and uterusless women who hold to the egalitarian interpretation of Scripture though.

May I ask you one thing? Did you study any of the information on the site I suggested a couple of weeks ago? (I mean really study, not simply dismiss it as "emotional hysteria" or "re-interpretation of the Bible because of an agenda.") If so, what are your thoughts?

{ducking}

oc said...

I was reading a discussion on another blog about the steroid scandal in major league baseball, and someone said:

"I think the scandal will hurt the sport for a long time, but not kill it. If it survived the players' strikes it can weather this. But isn't it a shame that a small number of men tarnished the image of something that is loved by so many just to elevate themselves."

oc says:
Ain't that the truth!

watchman said...

Nass..

You dont need to play mind games with me..

It was you that unfairly and Unbiblically lumped this sordid story of perversion in with your hatred of Biblical headship and patriarchal authority.

Your patently obvious implication was SPIRITUALLY OFFENSIVE and is clear for any honest person to see..

Patriarchal Christian = Likely Victimizer

Beleive and propigate that evil lie all you wish, but please don't try and stick it onto GODS WORD , and expect a follower and Believer in GOD and HIS WORD to sit idly by while you seek to re-invent HOLY WRIT.

As for liking me again, ???...

Nass....

Here is a TRUTH

I long ago chose to be crucified to self, since self-love makes one compromise TRUTH over and over in favor of peer acceptance and human favor and relationships .

Which is Precisely why we have so many seeker sensitive clones out there, rather than valiant men of The One True GOD..standing firm on GODS Unchanging WORD and DIVINE COMMANDS.

If all thats' not very likeable to you , and others ...and I know it is not...you cannot nor will not ever like me much.

I am ok with all of that.

That said...

May all arrogant and sin-sick pulpiteers and those fraudulent elders and deacons who enable them and cover for them ;who use the authority of GOD to further fulfill sinful desires at the expense of GODS SHEEP be exposed for the frauds and fiends that they are.

To GOD BE GLORY.

Junkster said...

Watchman,
When someone says that you have misunderstood what they meant and that you have misrepresented their intent, it is extremely uncharitible to insist that you know better what they meant than they do. And it is totally imappropriate to say that anyone who didn't read NASS's comments the same way you did is not being honest.

By the way, I am mot saying this because I am some sort of "feminist" -- I am not persuaded that either the egalitarian or complementarian perspectives are completely correct interpretations of Scripture. I'm only saying this because you are out of line and not on the side of righteousness in your comments and unfounded assumptions regarding NASS's motives.

Lin said...

I remember you being very competent in Greek/Hebrew? If I remember correctly, the word witness as we define (Eyewitness) is a bit different than the Greek/Hebrew meaning."

Right now I am working on an exegesis of Matthew 18. I looked up witnesses for that and the word is:

martus
mar'-toos
Of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a “martyr”: - martyr, record, witness.

Looks to me like this word is used 3 ways. In Matthew 18, these are people who 'record' or document what goes on. NOt that they actually see the sin take place but they are there to 'witness' what goes on in this confrontation.

Interesting this is the root of Martyr.

Lin said...

Lin: Please tell me you are kidding.

Read it and weep. Some of the comments are funny.

http://www.sbcoutpost.com/

oc said...

NASS said:
May I ask you one thing? Did you study any of the information on the site I suggested a couple of weeks ago? (I mean really study, not simply dismiss it as "emotional hysteria" or "re-interpretation of the Bible because of an agenda.") If so, what are your thoughts?

oc says:
Watching. You didn't answer the question.

jussayin'.
oc

Lin said...

So, basically watchman, you believe that even after the veil was torn in two that Jesus left earthly priests for women only?

New BBC Open Forum said...

watchman,

I'm afraid I don't have the ability to play mind games with anyone. I call 'em as I see 'em which admittedly doesn't always win me a lot of friends, but if I have to play games to win or keep friends, they were never really my friends in the first place.

You're taking what I said and insisting I was saying something else. Who has the agenda now?

You see, if the article had stated that Gilyard simply doesn't believe in women ministers or deacons or elders, I wouldn't have mentioned it. While I do not interpret Scripture that way now, I understand how others do, and I extend them the grace to do so, just as I expect to be extended the same courtesy. It's all the extra-Biblical stuff -- women can't teach boys (you know that's an unwritten rule -- maybe written by now -- at BBC), women can't be on the finance committee, women can't be ushers, women can't be a part of a group that endeavors to meet with the pastor, etc. that I'm talking about. There's no Scriptural justification for those things. They were invented by man to "keep women in their proper places."

Gilyard and perverts like him and their supporters and enablers tend, note I just said tend, to ascribe to these legalistic, nowhere-to-be-found-in-Scripture "rules." That was why I said it figured that Gilyard would, too.

However, and listen to me very carefully here, I did not say or mean to imply that all the people who do ascribe to these extra-Biblical "rules" are in any way perverts or friends thereof. That would be like saying that all dogs have four legs; therefore, all four-legged animals are dogs.

I explained what I meant. If you choose not to accept my explanation and still want to read into it something that's not there, there's nothing more I can say.

BTW, you didn't answer my question.

gmommy said...

Watchman,
I don't think Nass did the lumping you accuse her of.
I think you lumped the topic and Nass's views....
but why can't you have your views and remain respectful?? I think we can all do that without compromising what we believe.
just suggesting....

Lily said...

Greetings to all you Warriors,
My computer does not allow me to read the blog once the number of posts gets greater than 400-500, so I have been out of the loop. In catching up here this evening, there is one post that jumped out at me and will stick in my mind, and that one post was from EZ:

"The sifting has begun. The fire has been kindled. Judgement is upon the CHURCH."

Amen, and Amen.

Lin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

Oh, my goodness, Lin! After reading "watchman's" opinion of feminists and egalitarians, he'd likely throw a faggot to the lions.

watchman said...

GODS WORD is clear on women in authority over men in GODS CHURCH.

1 Timothy 2; 5-15

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

To try to find this passage of Scripture as vague and in need of ANY reinterpretation is typical of all those who FOLLISHLY desire to Judge God and HIS WORD, rather than to heed and obey Him and IT.

Lin said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28wood%29

Nass, a 'faggot' is a what is used to light the pyre around the martyr they are burning at the stake.

Calvin ordered 'green wood' for Servetus so it would take longer. Nice guy, huh? And people WANT to be called "Calvinists". I don't get it. Never will.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lin,

I didn't just fall off the cabbage truck (or the turnip truck either). I was just beating "junk" to the draw. ;-)

New BBC Open Forum said...

I guess I'm "follish" for seeking a deeper understanding of God's Word.

watchman said...

Projection of written and deliberately caustic mental-visual images of those with whom we unalterably disagree ....

suggesting that those with whom we disagree as being likely perpetrators of heinous historic evil is a pathetic and poor psychological manipulation that appeals only to mere sensuality and emotions of depraved hearts to make its' unwinnable case and thus succeed in only providing glowing evidence that "submitting" to GODS' AUTHORATATIVE TRUTH, is not in the man-centerred cards for many.


oops.... I said the dreaded " S" word. ( Submit )

gmommy said...

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

what was it that tweety bird (???)or someone used to say????????
it was right before a cartoon character smashed into a wall or something.....something like...you did a baaaad thing....?????

BTW...ALL women who do not have children are going to hell!!!!!!!!
sorry.

Lin said...

Here is an overview of 1 Timothy...specifcially focused on Chap 2.

CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING

Let us keep in mind, that if we believe watchmans interpretation, it would mean that barren women could NOT be saved. That is 'works' and is no where else in scripture.

In context, Paul is dealing with false deceived teachers who are teaching false doctrine (1 Tim. 1:3, 7)

Paul did not leave Timothy behind in Ephesus to stop the false teachers AND to stop all women who are teaching correct biblical doctrine¦.he only left Timothy behind to stop the false teachers from teaching false doctrine (1 Tim. 1:3)

Paul says that he too had been deceived and he received mercy because of his fighting against the church was because he was ignorant of the truth and he had been deceived (1 Tim 1:13, 16)

Paul differentiates between those who were teaching false doctrines because they were ignorant and deceived (1 Tim. 1:3, 7) and those who were deliberate deceivers (1 Tim. 1:19, 20)

Paul names the deceivers (1 Tim. 1:20) but he does not name the ones who are deceived (1 Tim. 1:3, 6)

Paul gives instructions to Timothy regarding how the men and women who claim godliness should conduct themselves in the church while they are in the midst of the false teachers (1 Tim. 2:1-10)

All Christians should be praying for the lost even those who are lost in their midst - those who are embroiled in false doctrine (1 Tim. 2:1-4)

The Christian men in the congregation are not to handle the false teachers with argumentation that might come out even in their prayers (1 Tim. 2:8)

The women in the congregation who lay claim to godliness (1 Tim. 2:10) need to handle this false teacher situation with prayer as well (1 Tim. 2:9 “likewise” links back to prayer) and continue to produce good works (1 Tim. 2:10) and not expect that it is their appearance with elaborate dressing that will show forth the godly example, but their godly works (1 Tim. 2:8-10)

Paul then abruptly changes from the godly men and women (plural) to the singular form of woman and man and deals with a problem of false teaching and a false teacher.

Before Paul gives the prohibition, he gives the solution to one of the problems in the church. Paul instructs that “a woman” is to be given the opportunity to learn.

This identifies the problem that she is not one of the deceivers, but one of the deceived. Paul never educates the deceivers - he names them, exposes them and shuns them. His solution to deception is education in sound doctrine and he never ever identifies the deceived.

Paul tells Timothy that he is not allowing “a woman” to teach or "authenteo" “a man”. It is out of context to even consider that Paul is here stopping godly women from teaching correct biblical doctrine. In context the prohibition can only be the stopping of false doctrine and stopping a false teacher. (1 Tim. 2:12)

We know this is false teaching that is being stopped because Timothy’s mandate to stop the teachers was only for false teachers. Also in the example given later of why the teaching is to be stopped, Paul ties the prohibition into the example of the first deceived woman (1 Tim. 2:14)

Whenever 'gune' and 'aner' are mentioned together in scripture in any type of relationship, they are always translated as husband and wife. Verse 12 should be translated as a single wife teaching/influencing her husband.

Paul has several times not identified people by calling them “a man” yet the context clearly identifies the “a man” as a specific person (2 Cor. 12:2, 5; 1 Cor. 5:1)

1 Timothy 2: 11, 12 follows that example as two people are called “a woman” and “a man” without naming them. They are not named because the wife is one of the deceived and Paul never identifies the deceived ones by name.

Paul identifies the reason why the first man was not deceived and why the woman was. He refers us back to Genesis to discover the reason by stating that the man was created first and was not deceived and the woman was created second was deceived (1 Tim. 2:13, 14 and Gen. 2:8, 19) See Genesis 2:8, 19 in the Apostle’s Bible which is the modern English version of the Greek Septuagint where it is quite clear the education Adam had before Eve was created.

The grammar from 1 Timothy 2:15 requires the identification of a single female to refer back to “a woman” from verse 12. The ”she” from verse 15 cannot be Eve because the tense is future and Eve is dead.

The only “she” in this entire passage that verse 15 can refer back to is “a woman” from verse 12.

“She” and “they” are given instructions regarding her salvation and it is future tense.

1 Tim. 2:15 gives the answer as to whether the deceived woman can receive salvation even though she has been deceived by false doctrine. She (refer back to verse 12 the deceived Ephesian woman) will be saved through the Messiah born of the woman (the childbearing which is a noun and not a verb), if they (refer back to verse 12 the deceived Ephesian woman and her husband) continue on in their faith in God, love for the Savior, holiness, and self-control to stay away from false doctrine.

This is how ONE deceived woman will be saved (and is a pattern for the salvation of all deceived teachers).

Summary: Paul was not making a universal prohibition that stopped godly women from teaching sound doctrine to men. He was stopping one of the false teachers in the assembly from taking her Christian husband down the proverbial garden path towards the forbidden fruit.

gmommy said...

watchman,
Please ask someone for a big hug.....I get cranky when I go a long time without one.....remember we're NOT the enemies!!

Lin said...

"suggesting that those with whom we disagree as being likely perpetrators of heinous historic evil is a pathetic and poor psychological manipulation that appeals only to mere sensuality and emotions of depraved hearts to make its' unwinnable case and thus succeed in only providing glowing evidence that "submitting" to GODS' AUTHORATATIVE TRUTH, is not in the man-centerred cards for many."

You have that on your clipboard for easy pasting, don't you.

oc said...

watchman said:
oops.... I said the dreaded " S" word. ( Submit )

oc says:
Yes, and you never "submitted" an answer to NASS's question either.

jussayin'.
oc.

Jeremy said...

Just throwing in my two cents...in our local church no women hold the two official positions of the church (pastor or deacon) however, their are women serving on our Financial Oversight Committee (a banker for one), Treasury Assistant (an accountant), we offer no women only/men only classes. One of our best classes is led by a woman who simply teaches, she would never say that she is in a position of authority over any of the men in her class, but she teaches and they enjoy and attend faithfully.
I have to be honest and say if it weren't for women stepping up in many churches in the area where I serve, most of the churches would have to close their doors.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jeremy,

Please make your profile visible!

Lin said...

"One of our best classes is led by a woman who simply teaches, she would never say that she is in a position of authority over any of the men in her class, but she teaches and they enjoy and attend faithfully."

Jeremy, YOu just hit on another important point. Just because someone is teaching does not mean they have authority over the person they are teaching. We can all be Bereans. This whole 'authority' thing is backwards. In the NT, it means humble servant. The greatest is like a little child.

Not exactly like having power, huh?

Opie said...

Did that do it?

gmommy said...

Thank you Jeremy...

and BTW...IN GENERAL...do the men that hold watchman's views believe that men have authority over all women ...or just husband's over wives???? or both?????

funny that other denominations believe that God meant for women...created in His image... to use their gifts and talents for Him.
also interesting that the South is much more of the mindset that women are beneath men.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Well, "opie," I'm not sure. What was it supposed to do? :-)

oc said...

That old "S" word is like a two-headed snake. It bites both ways.

jussayin'.
oc.

Opie said...

I love computers and I hate them at the same time. :) I'm just trying to get this silly thing visible...I have obviously had some sort of epiphany and Jeremy has become Opie. Go figure?!

Lin said...

Opie, you are an accountant in Afghanistan?

ezekiel said...

Lin,

That is what I was getting at. Thanks for expressing it so much better. Does the fact that most of these types of sin occur between 2 people....one victim, one perp, mean that none of the victims can ever get justice without eye witnesses to the crime?

That is what PP seems to say. If we go at it where the victim confronts the perp with 2 or three witnesses, one of two things would happen. Either the perp would admit the sin and repent, or deny it. If he denies it then she could take it to the church for gasp...judgement and justice. The witnesses would be there to simply confirm the result. Is this the way it is supposed to work?

Otherwise the perp could just do it over an over till someone from CSI caught up with him...or it was taped. Then he could always claim a set up....

New BBC Open Forum said...

I posted this a while back. It was written by Leon McBeth who was then professor of church history at SWBTS. He presented this address at the annual meeting of the Historical Commission, SBC, and Southern Baptist Historical Society in Birmingham, AL in April, 1987.

This excerpt illustrates the hypocrisy of some people:

As a very young man, I served as pastor of a strong, rural church in west Texas. We had a one-room building, and divided the Sunday School classes by drawing burlap curtains strung on clothesline wire. We had no pastor’s study, so I sat in the men’s Sunday School class. Our teacher was a wonderful man, a farmer named J. E., a man unspoiled by the schools. I had no car, so I rode the Greyhound bus to the nearest town; and many a Saturday afternoon, J. E. and Joyce picked me up and I spent the weekend with them. On Sunday morning on the way to church, Joyce would drive while J. E. prepared his lesson. His preparation went as follows: "Joyce, where is the lesson for today?" She would tell him the Scripture passage, he would open his Bible, find the passage, insert his quarterly at that place, and close his Bible. That was his total preparation. In class we would each read a verse and tell what it meant to us.

The women’s class met just across the curtain from us. Not five feet away, their teacher, Duchess, taught an excellent lesson. She had a strong voice; I should have such a voice. We could not help but hear her teaching; and most Sundays after a few moments, our class would lapse into silence, and we would just sit there listening to Duchess across the curtain.

That was my first pastorate, and I did not know anything. One day I said, "Why don’t we just draw back this curtain, and all of us make one class, and let Duchess be our teacher." There was a stunned silence. I wish you could have seen the look on the faces of those men: consternation, shock, dismay, and disbelief that the pastor would suggest such a thing. "Oh no," they said, "we can’t do that. That would make it a mixed class."

watchman said...

The Biblical model for Younger women as taught by Pastor John Macarthur...

THE BIBLICAL ROLE OF YOUNGER WOMEN IN CHURCH

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jeremy/"opie"...

You apparently created a whole new account. You can go to the "Edit Profile" page and change your screen name there.

Oh, and thanks! We had some imposters in the early days, and this was a way of weeding them out.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lin wrote:

"Opie, you are an accountant in Afghanistan?"

That's okay. Half the people who post here are accountants in Afghanistan.

Note: Those are the default settings. You can change them or choose not to display one or both.

Opie said...

May I pose a question on this blog that has been swimming in my thoughts for a few months now? Good, I didn't think anyone would mind...:)
Why do I(or we) remain Southern Baptist? I live near Nashville and drive past a huge LifeWay building that is way overkill, then there's the TBC building which is in a different location, etc, etc.
They've never helped any of the churches I've pastored except for the time we went to the "Church Architecture Conference" and was told nothing of church architecture but sat through a "time-share like" sales pitch by banks, architects, and the TBC rep, instead of telling us what the TBC could do for us spent 30 minutes telling us why we should hire him to be our "fund-raiser". I don't approve of the direction, the emphasis, the polity, or basically anything...why do I remain faithful?

Lin said...

"The witnesses would be there to simply confirm the result. Is this the way it is supposed to work?"

That is my reading of it. Here is what the NKJV says in Matthew 18:

16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’

The ESV is different and does not have the Duet 19:15 reference.

Seems the witnesses are making sure the offended brother is acting in good faith and theyb would be there if any agreement is made betwen the two.

Opie said...

Lin...sometimes, just sometimes, I feel like it. I'm a pastor in Tennessee.

Lin said...

Wow Opie/Jeremy, that is the 64,000 question.

Why am I SBC? Because my church is NOTHING like what I see happening at the convention.

(Watchman, sit down, this next part is going to give you cardiac arrest)

My church ordained 2 women deacons on Sunday. Guess what? We are not liberal. My pastor teaches at a well known conservative comp seminary. WE love the Lord and love scripture. He exposits.

BTW: My "offerings" do not go to the SBC. I designate as do many I know. I refuse to pay PP's salary and I feel bad for the missionaries but we can support them in other venues that are much more effective than a part of it going for these big bldgs, plush offices and Bob Reccords jaunts to London to see the Premier of the CS Lewis film.

So why? Because it is one of the last denominations to beleive in the Holy Priesthood (if we can get Mohler to stop adding the 's' to it so he can be king over the 's'))

Because we have no Bishops and no 'ecclesiastical courts' far away. (Yes I believe in church discipline but not by a group of men that are not in my local body)

Because the pastor answers to the Body in a few baptist churches.

Because we have always believed in the narow Gate and Jesus being that narrow Gate.

When the money dries up, those bldgs will be put up for sale and not too soon for me.

BTW: Lifeway is a joke. We ignore them and their materials.

Opie said...

Lin...which seminary(if I may ask) does he teach in?

watchman said...

Video
John Piper on The Christian man as head of the home.

CHRISTIAN MEN AS HEAD

watchman said...

JOHN PIPER
The Christian man as Head ..part 2

Christian man as Head part 2

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jeremy wrote:

"Why do I(or we) remain Southern Baptist?"

Excellent question! I can only speak for myself, but I see others who seem to be sticking around for the same reasons I have.

It's because that's our identity. It's who and what we are. It's like people who are Democrats simply because their parents and grandparents were Democrats. Only problem with that is, the Democratic Party isn't what it used to be. It's changed. And so has the SBC.

Put another way, it's like trying to go back to your childhood home and expecting things to be the same. They never will be. You can't go home.

The SBC is not the church. The SBC is a man-made organization that has evolved into something very different from what it started out as, and IMO those changes haven't all been good. To realize and accept this is not easy. One could almost compare it to the death of a good friend.

So... I think the reason many of us have remained Southern Baptists is tradition. It's been our comfort zone. Let's face it. Change is sometimes scary -- especially when it involves something that's such a huge part of our lives.

The question is, what do you do now? No one can answer that for you. I've come to the slow and sad realization that I don't think I can be Southern Baptist now. But what am I? How will I identify myself now? Of course, I'm a Christian first, but we're commanded to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, so where do you go? Only you can make that decision. As for me, I'm still considering the options.

Lin said...

email me opie. It is on my profile/blog

watchman, Piper teaches 'primogeniture' as the biblical reason for male authority. NOt a real credible position since many first born sons in the OT were NOT the ones God chose to use or bless. Sorry. Even Piper can be wrong. I love Piper in spite of his wrong beliefs on this subject. he is a great preacher.

Lin said...

watchman, you can save yourself the McArthur links. he teaches that us gals are NOT made in the image of God. He says we are made in the 'indirect image' of God.

As if the materials used have anything to do with 'image of God.

Does dirt of the ground give YOU the image of God?

Junkster said...

Arrgggghhh! I think Lin just taught me some stuff!! My eyes, my eyes!!!

Opie said...

Fortunately, I don't worry about attending church. I have been called to pastor and I enjoy our fellowship most of the time. We have a few people who view me as too "liberal", but they come from a Church of Christ or Independant Baptist background, so I guess I am liberal for them.
I guess I feel like many on this blog feel...pushed away yet compelled to try and fight the system for change. But I look at the options and ask what I would change if given the opportunity and right now my only answer is to demolish it and start over.
The SBC has become a beauracracy (sp) that seems to exist only to perpetuate itself.

Getting somewhat back on topic, my interpretation of Matthew 18 is that the witnesses are to witness the discussion as mediators between the two parties. We must always remember that Matthew 5:23 (I think) and Matthew 18 are both seeking the same thing...righteous reconcilliation.

BkWormGirl said...

I am not trying to be a smart aleck... but -- how does anyone not listen to these people and just think they are all off their rocker.

I don't believe in the idea that all of any denomination are bad. I think it is easy to say that the SBC is flooded with derelicts, but I am not sure that it totally accurate. I think there is a lack of integrity and that is a global problem, not unique to the SBC, the Catholic church, the Episcopalians, or Presbyterians.

Allow no misunderstanding, I believe that ONE act of this kind is the end of a person's ministry as a leader/shepherd. However, that one act does not invalidate all that that person has ever done.

Just my thoughts,
BWG

GMommy - did you get my email? Is that what you were asking me?

Lin said...

Arrgggghhh! I think Lin just taught me some stuff!! My eyes, my eyes!!!

Gouge them out lest they cause you to sin!!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

bkwormgirl wrote:

"... how does anyone not listen to these people and just think they are all off their rocker."

Which ones?

Lin said...

Getting somewhat back on topic, my interpretation of Matthew 18 is that the witnesses are to witness the discussion as mediators between the two parties. We must always remember that Matthew 5:23 (I think) and Matthew 18 are both seeking the same thing...righteous reconcilliation.

10:23 PM, January 16, 2008

Good point. Can I use that?

By the way, I agree about the bureaucracy thing perpetuating itself. Have you read "Spending God's Money" by Mary Kinney Branson? Oh my. She used to work at NAMB.

Those are plumb jobs at the SBC...big salaries. And if you are a mega church pastor, you are guaranteed lots of well paid speaking engagments.

Give me the small church guy with a real gospel message anyday. :o)

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Gouge them out lest they cause you to sin!!!"

... and stuff them in your ears the next time SG starts beating the sheep. That way you won't hear him and won't be able to read his lips either.

Lin said...

...a little sleep...a little slumber...oh, I forgot the rest...

nite dear brothers and sisters...that includes you...watchman. Even though you think I am a wicked jezebel in rebellion. ;o)

Opie said...

bkwormgirl is right. There are no absolutes, but at some point we must begin to question the reason something like a denomination exists if for nothing else than stewardship.
I am actually to a point where I am even wondering if the idea of denominations is even appropriate. Keep in mind...I'm sharing thoughts only and inviting your thoughts. I AM IN NO WAY ADVOCATING ANYTHING I AM SAYING...I'm simply posing questions.
:)

Astounded said...

The sifting has begun. The fire has been kindled. Judgement is upon the CHURCH.

I think you may want to revisit this statement. The church, by definition is not subject to judgement. The church, which is the group of believers in Christ, has escaped judgement by the blood of Christ. Remember, Jesus died for the sins of all men. Those that accept Christ's salvation (the church, by definition) will not fall.

I believe you mean judgement is upon the APOSTATE church.

concernedSBCer said...

Opie: As you can tell by my name, I have major concerns about the direction and purpose of the SBC. I no longer feel that it serves the member congregations and I see no benefit to having it, except the seminaries. Am I missing something?

Opie said...

lin,
Of course you can use that...that's what I preached on a couple of weeks ago.

I need to check that book out.

BTW: suppose I'm a little "slow" with the computers and can't seem to find you're email address.

Opie said...

concerned,
They didn't even help me...I went to Mid-America for a while then to Temple.

concernedSBCer said...

Opie: Where have you been? Have you been lurking? You said: "I guess I feel like many on this blog feel...pushed away yet compelled to try and fight the system for change." That's exactly how I feel. Nass also hit the nail on the head when he said that being a member of the SBC is part of our identity, our tradition.

But I am beginning to feel somewhat hopeless.

BkWormGirl said...

Nass - Sorry, that was defiantly a dangling pronoun wasn't it. I was referring to people like Patterson, the deacons mentioned in the article, and several others that are wig wagging back and forth, if you are going to tell a story, at least try to stick it ... someone should tell them to just tell the truth, it much easier to remember.

Opie said...

yes, yes, My name is Opie, and I'm a lurker.
Actually, just now getting into this whole blogging thing. I've been keeping up with this site since I heard of all the questions surrounding the molestation case.

concernedSBCer said...

bkwormgirl: I agree, it's not all bad. But when I see the corruption, the failure to track and report "problem" pastors, the failure to hold mega-pastors accountable because "every church is autonomous" is frustrating to me.

BkWormGirl said...

Opie - I think I am in a similar position. In that, I am not ready to just throw it all away, but I am growing weary of the games that are being played. As a result, I am asking questions, none of which have been divinely answered - at least not completely yet - but I am trying to figure out what it is I need to be doing, and where to go from here.

I still the basic tenants of the Southern Baptist faith is the most accurate to the scriptures. However, the politics, are overshadowing the accuracy of the message, and making it seem like a sad and ugly tragedy.

Opie said...

bkwormgirl,
I mistook your post, but you got me thinking. We can either focus on the negative or pray for God to increase the positive.

Opie said...

I think I'm going to get some sleep. Good night all.

concernedSBCer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
concernedSBCer said...

Opie: But people have to be willing to listen to God to make those changes. I don't mean to sound snotty at all, but when you look at the actions of some in leadership, you gotta wonder, "Are they following God and God's Word at all?"

Example: SG saying the PW mess was "uncharted waters." Hasn't he read about the Catholic Church issue???

Example: A known philanderer just needs to go to counseling for a while, then he can pastor a church? Huh?

Where are the consequences? Where are the men standing for God's Word?

watchman said...

Nass

I just reread the main topic page, and followed the link to the 1991 nres story regarding Darrel Gilyard.

The quote that I thought yoou had made as a "commentary" on the whole event is and was in actuality a quote from the newspaper article itself and was NOT your own words, but rather the newspaper reporters.

I beleived the words were " your words" and I then went off and accused you of pushing a feminist agenda based on what I originally thought were your words or personal " musings " and not actual reportage on the news account.

I now see that you were not responsible for the " quote " that I had attributed to yourself, and I wrongly accused you based upon my mistaken notion that you had made those comments regarding " conservative" beleifs regarding womens roles..

I am sorry ..

I was wrong to have mistaken the newspapers account as being your commentary.

For this I am deeply sorrowful and humbly ask for your forgiveness..

Another lesson learned ..

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you, "watchman"! That's very kind of you. I accept your apology.

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

In the context of my post...1 Peter 4:17-18, Mat 13:27-40, Amos 9:9-10 and Isaiah 65:11-13, I would consider that to be the folks that we and a lot of others go to church with every Sunday. If you want to call it the apostate church, I can go along with that.

I prefer to look at it as a field full of wheat and tares. Or a basket full of grain and chaff. The nation of Israel is also a good example. He certainly judged that house...and found only a few. the Remnant.

Then we can look at the churches in the first few chapters of Rev. Without going into more detail than required, there appears to be a lot of judgement going on with those seven “churches”. Were they what you call apostate? Rev 2:2-4 looks that way.

So when we look at the seven churches in Rev, He is judging them. Right? What happens then? Isn’t he telling most of them what he wants them to do, what he wants them to correct? Is He doing that today with the churches you know?

When it comes to us personally, do you suppose he just takes our word for it? Or does he judge our deeds, actions and life to determine whether or not we are telling Him the truth? (Yea, I know we think we are telling Him the truth but what do you or I know?) Do your actions match your words?

Jeremiah 17: 7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. 8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit. 9**** The heart is deceitful above all things , and desperately wicked: who can know it? ****10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Put another way, if you have children, do you always just accept what they tell you at face value? Or do you establish rules and judge their obedience by actions and words and respond with reward or discipline?


For whatever it is worth, I think the churches today are not all that different from the seven in Revelations. Some hot and some not. But that can go for the people in them as well. Some hot and some not. And there are some....that are just LIARS.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you.

He is judging and sifting His house today. There is a lot to judge. Hot, Not and Liars. Everyday. That is me and you. If we claim to be in His house. Those in the world are already condemned. They might not know it. But they are.

Astounded said...

Ez

The use of the word "church" has a very distinctive meaning to some of us. I am pretty sure we are on the same page on this. Some think of a church as a group of people that meet in fellowship. When we speak of Jesus' Church, we are talking of those that have put their faith in Him. Also when you post of God's Judgement as you did with a capital J, that usually applies to final Judgement of the nonbeliever.

There are two groups of members at Bellevue Bartist Church or Faith Baptist Church, or even Hope Presbyterian Church or Immaculate Conception. There are those that have accepted salvation. Those are the "Church." There are those that have not accepted that salvation. While they may be a member of BBC, FBC, HPC or IC, they are NOT of the Church.

Now, time for my side rant. This PDC concept of reaching out and attracting the "unchurched". Believe me, they have plenty of unChurched people already on their membership rolls who attend services regularly.

Rant complete.

I think the examples you have quoted such as those cited in Rev. are God's warning to us not to follow the apostacy of these so-called churches.

watchman said...

Steve Camp lays out the charge that the evangelical man has largely been feminized.

I could not agree more.

THE FEMINIZATION OF THE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN MAN

Lin said...

"There are those that have accepted salvation. Those are the "Church." There are those that have not accepted that salvation. While they may be a member of BBC, FBC, HPC or IC, they are NOT of the Church. "

This is what I used to believe, too. But, it struck me how many have 'accepted' His salvation that bear no fruit. Billy Graham Crusades can attest to millions of these. YOu could knock on every door in your neighbhorhood and most have 'accepted' Christ at one time or another.

The part that is missing is sanctfication or regeneration. We cannot really 'accept' Christ at all. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and our hopelessness without a Savior.

I fear there are lots of people walking around that think they are saved because they walked an ailse and said a prayer and got baptized. That whole idea is really 'works'. We might as well baptize babies.

The whole language and methods we use suggest it is all our decision. It isn't. Eph 1-2

"I think the examples you have quoted such as those cited in Rev. are God's warning to us not to follow the apostacy of these so-called churches."

Interesting subject. Jeff Noblitt preaches that these churches in Rev are in the future...during the tribulation. Others believe they are in the past.

In any event, It is a bit disconcerting to realize that some of these churches are groups that Paul praised at one time or another.

Lin said...

Opie, e-mail nass. She will give it to you.

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

I hear what you are saying. However, let’s not confuse the sentence with the trial. Jesus paid the price, the penalty and served out our just sentence. It is done. Complete. I think you agree with that.

However, we are in the middle of the trial. The Judge sits in judgment. Of his people.
Psalms 50:7 and 50:21.

Then we always have 1 Cor 11:23-34 The Lords Supper.

23For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that )the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
25In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
----------------------------------
32But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.


----------------------------------
33So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
34If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment The remaining matters I will arrange when I come.

Pretty serious business......

sickofthelies said...

I've been pondering something.

I ponder over whether the people that have come on this blog and blamed everyone else EXCEPT SG are now doing the same for DG?

Will they blame the girl who received the text message for ' trying to bring down a man of God', as many have done to CW? Will they question her timing?

If the answer is NO, then we can only assume that they have only defended SG because they are following him, and not God.

If they can see clear enough to know that what DG did was wrong, and that he should resign, why is it that they cannot see the same for SG? HMMMMMMMM????

concernedSBCer said...

SOTL: It is a puzzle, isn't it?

(I love it when you ponder!)

New BBC Open Forum said...

A bit off topic, but since when does that matter? Today's LWF daily devotional reads as follows:

BIBLE MEDITATION:
"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Galatians 4:6

DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT:
Do you know what "Abba" means? It means "Daddy Father." Have you ever thought about God as your Daddy? When Jesus taught us to pray "Our Father" in Matthew 6:9, He uses the same Greek word "Pater" — "Abba Father." American children say, "Da - Da." But in the Middle East they say, "Abba - Abba." Jesus says that we can call the great God of the universe, "Daddy." I'm so glad that our Heavenly Father never gets too busy running this universe and commanding the angels that He forgets us. He wants to be with you like there is no one else on earth and nothing else for Him to do.

ACTION POINT:
Do you wish you had a hug right now? You can crawl up into the lap of your Daddy Father and He has nothing better to do than to give you a hug.


I remember a few weeks ago at the end of a Sunday morning service Phil Newberry delivered the benediction, and he began... "Abba... Father... Dad!" I nearly fell off my chair laughing... after I pulled my jaw up off the floor. Another BBC man who shall remain nameless (since I didn't hear this with my own ears) was heard to say that he couldn't wait to get to heaven so he could climb up on God's lap and pull His beard.

Am I the only one who finds these kinds of references to a Holy God extremely offensive? God is my Heavenly Father. He is not my "daddy." I was shocked to learn that this stuff came from (or was at least promoted by) Dr. Rogers.

And I'm not at all sure God has a beard... or a lap.

amazed said...

NBBCOF--Some people do indeed have a strange perception of our almighty God. If people would realize how small the people of planet earth are in relation to the entire universe, they would marvel that God even acknowledges mankind. I will also pass on referring to him as "daddy".

allofgrace said...

Actually the word "abba" means exactly that...daddy, a familiar term one uses for their father...one that reflects both intimacy and dependence. No need to get offended by it...that's what the Scripture says. Pulling on God's beard is a different story, seeing that God is spirit and has no human attributes, physical or otherwise. The two terms used in that phrase.."abba, Father" conveys both intimacy (abba) and reverence (Father).

Lin said...

"Steve Camp lays out the charge that the evangelical man has largely been feminized."

Let us look at this sentence logically. Men have been feminized? By whom?

The implication of this sentence is that men have given the women power to feminize them.

Why did the men stop being men?

The application of this is that men can ONLY be men when women let them.

Is that what he means?

watchman said...

Lin..

By your bizarre statements, I am not at all sure you even read the same article.

I beleive Steve Camp does just fine speaking for himself, without a " lin" customized replacement of Steve Camps' own words.

You could always just write your own article, you know. Then you can have all of us replace your words and suggest bizzare things that are not written there too.

Juss sayin'

watchman said...

The Ten Lies of Feminism :

The 10 Lies of Feminism

ezekiel said...

Lin,

"The application of this is that men can ONLY be men when women let them. "

Hey, that is the way is works around my house. Any other system results in me being just totally evil with no positive characteristics what so ever...:)

Evil I say...just evil...

Churchmouse said...

Why did the men stop being men?

Reply:
Maybe it is the hormones in the chicken.
It is a left wing conspiracy.

allofgrace said...

lin,
I just finished reading the article that was linked to, and I can't see where you got that he was accusing women of anything. He was letting the men have it. If someone makes the statement about a man and says he's effeminate, is that an accusation against women? His use of "feminization" to describe what he thinks is going on with men in our time, has nothing to do with women either making them that way, or "allowing" them to be otherwise. Lighten up a little lin..you're starting to see things that aren't even there.

Lynn said...

Ya know...I've been doing some pondering as well. The other day I was listening to Glenn Beck on the radio and he was talking about how he almost died from a bad reaction with pain medications after undergoing hemmeroid surgery. He was commenting on how a lot of hospital workers don't show any compassion towards the sick and described how it took 40 minutes at the ER for someone to offer his wife (who is about half of his weight) assistance carrying him back to see the doctor.

As I was listening to him talking about that, I realized that today's churches also show that lack of compassion. In a way, a church in many ways is like a hospital. When we have a physical ailment, we go to the hospital for treatment. If we have a spiritual ailment, we go to church. At BBC, theres a department called Pastoral Care. The problem is, there is no care. And sadly this is not an isolated incident. This is spreading like the plague across the SBC, and possibly through other denominations as well. Churches focus so much on church growth and pastors focus so much on lining their pockets or obtaining power, that they lost focus on what is important, the spiritual health of people. If a church and pastor is hurting people instead of caring for people, its not Jesus they're focused on, its their own interests. We need to get back to the basics. We need to get back to basics NOW. We cannot wait any longer.

New BBC Open Forum said...

From the article "watchman" posted:

"Culture, it announced, was responsible for turning human blank slates into truck-wielding boys and doll-toting girls. This lie has been very effective at changing the culture."

Reply: Hmmm... wonder what went wrong with me? As a kid I played with trucks and Legos and hated dolls and tea parties (I mean, what's the point of a tea party?), but I had a male cousin who played with dolls -- to the point of carrying one with him everywhere. Bottom line, neither of us is some freak of nature, neither of us turned out to dislike the opposite sex, and we're both healthy, well-adjusted adults. You can't pigeon-hole people. Well, you can, but a lot of those people won't be very happy.

"Sometimes, being overeducated hampers a woman's ability to relate to men. Men's egos are notoriously fragile, and they are by nature competitive. It's threatening to many men when a woman achieves more, or accomplishes more, or knows more than they do."

Reply: Well, ain't that a shame! Poor babies with their fragile egos are threatened when some lowly woman can do something better than they can. Fortunately not all men are like that.

"The answer is for women to understand that many men feel threatened and insecure about this area of potential competition, and maintain an attitude of humility and sensitivity about one's strengths; as Romans exhorts us, 'Honor[ing] one another above yourselves' (12:10)."

Reply: It says "honoring one another," not the woman acting like a dumb twit and playing silly games so the man won't feel threatened. As I said before, I don't play games.

"There is also a spiritual dimension to denying maternity. When women refuse their God-ordained roles and responsibilities, they open themselves to spiritual deception and temptations. 1 Timothy 2:15 is an intriguing verse: 'But women will be saved through childbearing.' One compelling translation for this verse is, 'Women will be kept safe through childbearing,' where Paul uses the word for childbearing as a sort of shorthand for the woman's involvement in the domestic sphere--having her 'focus on the family,' so to speak."

Reply: Wow. So if a woman doesn't marry at 20 (or earlier) and churn out as many children as nature will allow, then she's "refusing her God-ordained roles and responsibilities." Wow.

"In his book Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus(6), John Gray pointed out that men get their sense of self from achievement, and women get their sense of self from relationships."

Reply: Horse hockey. I've heard Dr. Rogers say the same thing. I thought it was horse hockey when he said it, too.

"God's plan is for us to live a balanced life--sometimes active, sometimes passive; sometimes the initiator, sometimes the responder; at all times, submitting both who we are and what we do to the Lordship of Christ."

Reply: Amen! Well said. It also seems to contradict much of what the author says elsewhere in the article.

"Of course, if women don't need anybody except themselves, they certainly don't need God. Particularly a masculine, patriarchal God who makes rules they don't like and insists that He alone is God. But the need to worship is deeply ingrained in us, so feminist thought gave rise to goddess worship."

Reply: What? If a woman doesn't marry she's rejecting God and worshipping some "goddess"? Was that what Lottie Moon was preaching in China? Goddess worship?

"Women, it turns out, want to be the soft ones--and we want men to be strong and firm and courageous; we want a manly man."

Reply: Some do. Some don't. Why can't people just be who they are? Not all women are by nature "soft." Not all men are, by society's definition, "manly." I've known families where the wife works outside the home and the husband stays home with the kids, and it works best for them. In others the husband works outside the home, the wife stays home with the kids, and that works best for them. In some families, either by necessity or choice, both parents work, and that works best for their families. Why do people have to be pigeon-holed in this way? One woman's strengths may be another woman's weaknesses. Just as one man's strengths may be another man's weaknesses.

My grandparents were happily married for nearly 60 years. If there was any painting done or anything repaired around the house (short of climbing onto the roof which to my knowledge neither of them ever did), my grandmother always did it because my poor grandfather couldn't hammer a nail straight! Yet I'm sure there are some who would say he shirked his "husbandly" duties because he didn't do these things. Why should one person be forced to conform to someone else's perception of what's "ideal"? Men and women should be free to pursue whatever roles they're best gifted for, and trust me, not all women are gifted in the "traditional" area of childrearing.

You know, these kinds of articles always focus on the married woman with children. I'd like to know what you think the "role" of an unmarried woman -- either never married, divorced, or widowed -- with or without children is. If women are "saved through childbearing," then there are a lot of childless women in trouble!

Look, "watchman," you've bombarded us with this stuff, but you rarely enter into any discussion about anything unless you're blasting people who don't agree with everything you say. You're right; we're wrong. I've read every article you've posted. Have you read anything I've posted? I asked you that question last night, but you never answered.

You can disagree with Lin or me or anyone else here, but characterizing her words as "bizarre," especially considering the nature of some of the stuff you've posted, is not acceptable.

Churchmouse said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
oc said...

NASS said:

Another BBC man who shall remain nameless (since I didn't hear this with my own ears) was heard to say that he couldn't wait to get to heaven so he could climb up on God's lap and pull His beard.

oc says:
Dude confused God with Santa.

jussayin'.
oc.

watchman said...

Hmmm

Perhaps a bit of history would be appropriate here;

Lets review some interesting and loving posts uttered recently and without apology.


lin said:
" watchman, I love ya. You are part of our kooky family here. but sometimes... in the still of the night...I have to wonder if you wouldn't gladly throw the faggot that burned Servetus alive.

8:35 PM, January 16, 2008

and NBBCOF then chortled this little gem:

"Oh, my goodness, Lin! After reading "watchman's" opinion of feminists and egalitarians, he'd likely throw a faggot to the lions.

8:42 PM, January 16, 2008


In contrast ladies, , my use of the word " bizzare" pales exceedingly in comparison.

Juss sayin'

oc said...

Churchmouse said:

Why did the men stop being men?

Reply:
Maybe it is the hormones in the chicken.
It is a left wing conspiracy.

oc says:
Men stop being men when men bow down to men. Not so much a left wing conspiracy, but more of a chicken wing conspiracy. Men who worry about what other men think, instead of what God thinks.

jussayin'.
oc.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Do you have no sense of humor whatsoever, "watchman"? That was a joke! Perhaps not a particularly funny one, but that's what it was. Please try to lighten up! We're not all serious, gloom-and-doom here all the time.

eprov said...

watchman.....
the big qualifier is a question for you.....
are you married, head of your household, wife subservient, daughter living her role in life as you state from your Biblical perspective?
It's one thing to have a 'theory.'
Quite another to actually live it.
Tell us about the ideal life you have built, please.
Or is it just head knowledge as I suspect?
I am married for 40 years, 1 daughter, 4 sons. Probably would have the respect of many as an 'ideal' family. By the grace of God we are what we are.
Sorry, but I wouldn't want a wife or daughter like you describe. And don't recite your token scripture. I have a comfortable knowledge of the Bible. And I have much respect for the spiritual maturity in my wife and daughter.
I don't have to prove my manhood by making demands on the women in my life. I live it. Again, by the grace of God.
The odds are you will ignore the initial question here and take the soapbox with your legalistic rhetoric.

watchman said...

New and now in 250 flavors

Heresy Helper ...

mmmm mmm good ..

HERESY HELPER

New BBC Open Forum said...

watchman,

I've asked a couple of questions now, both of which you've ignored. "Eprov" has now asked you a question. Why not pick one and expound? I'd love to have a real discussion and not just throw barbs at each other.

Churchmouse said...

watchman said...
New and now in 250 flavors

Heresy Helper ...

REPLY:

Not sold in Utah! ??? Maybe not at the A&P, but I hear the black market is thriving.

It is said that the Jungian flavor is especially adaptable for use in this area.

oc said...

Watchman.

Hmmm

Perhaps a bit of history would be appropriate here; you say:

That is emotive agenda driven hysteria on parade...and should also not be ignored.

And...


Nass..

You dont need to play mind games with me..

It was you that unfairly and Unbiblically lumped this sordid story of perversion in with your hatred of Biblical headship and patriarchal authority.

Your patently obvious implication was SPIRITUALLY OFFENSIVE and is clear for any honest person to see..

Patriarchal Christian = Likely Victimizer

Beleive and propigate that evil lie all you wish, but please don't try and stick it onto GODS WORD , and expect a follower and Believer in GOD and HIS WORD to sit idly by while you seek to re-invent HOLY WRIT.

And...

Projection of written and deliberately caustic mental-visual images of those with whom we unalterably disagree ....

suggesting that those with whom we disagree as being likely perpetrators of heinous historic evil is a pathetic and poor psychological manipulation that appeals only to mere sensuality and emotions of depraved hearts to make its' unwinnable case and thus succeed in only providing glowing evidence that "submitting" to GODS' AUTHORATATIVE TRUTH, is not in the man-centerred cards for many.


oops.... I said the dreaded " S" word. ( Submit )


And...

I am sorry ..

I was wrong to have mistaken the newspapers account as being your commentary.

For this I am deeply sorrowful and humbly ask for your forgiveness..

Another lesson learned ..


And then...


Hmmm

Perhaps a bit of history would be appropriate here;

Lets review some interesting and loving posts uttered recently and without apology.


lin said:
" watchman, I love ya. You are part of our kooky family here. but sometimes... in the still of the night...I have to wonder if you wouldn't gladly throw the faggot that burned Servetus alive.

8:35 PM, January 16, 2008

and NBBCOF then chortled this little gem:

"Oh, my goodness, Lin! After reading "watchman's" opinion of feminists and egalitarians, he'd likely throw a faggot to the lions.

8:42 PM, January 16, 2008


In contrast ladies, , my use of the word " bizzare" pales exceedingly in comparison.

Juss sayin'

......................

oc says:
Hmmm. Classic abuse. Beat them. Apologize. And beat them again. Ladies, another apology should be coming soon.

jussayin'.
oc.

New BBC Open Forum said...

oc,

I'm sure you meant "beat" in the verbal sense, not the physical. Just so no one misunderstands and thinks you're accusing Mr. Watchman of beating his wife or anyone else.

Example: Steve Gaines beating the sheep. No one is implying he physically beats anyone.

Lin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
oc said...

NASS,

Yes, I meant in the verbal sense.

But a rose by any other name...

JUSSAYIN'.
oc.

Lin said...

Lighten up a little lin..you're starting to see things that aren't even there.

6:15 PM, January 17, 2008

I never read it! I was ONLY responding to what watchman wrote here.I was responding to an illogical statement.

Again, I like Campi. I go to audience one all the time. He has even taken on the pyro boys a few times. rightly so.

If I read every single link watchman put up, I would have no time to interact here. We would all have to quit our jobs and read watchmans links. :o)

Lin said...

"Sometimes, being overeducated hampers a woman's ability to relate to men. Men's egos are notoriously fragile, and they are by nature competitive. It's threatening to many men when a woman achieves more, or accomplishes more, or knows more than they do."

This is insulting to both men and women. My dad, corporate executive and very successful was my mom's biggest cheerleader in her pursuits and bent over backwards to encourage and accomodate her. I grew up around a man like that. A man who knew who he was outside of what anyone else thought. My mom was not real domestic so she hired a housekeeper. She was not a great cook, so we ate out a lot. 'Some p[eople think that is so horrible but my parents were in love with one another. It showed every day and I praise God for it.

Churchmouse said...

OC said:
Men stop being men when men bow down to men. Not so much a left wing conspiracy, but more of a chicken wing conspiracy. Men who worry about what other men think, instead of what God thinks.

REPLY:

Right on! And......

We must be careful and oh so sensitive to the feelings of others. Ask Brer Mouse, who has a strange phobia of sensitivity training classes at his place of employment. He must not offend anyone of another race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation. He lives in constant fear in his role as a caucasian heterosexual Christian male. Yet, others are free to offend him in any way they see fit.

I have compassion.

Lily said...

Well, based on some of the posts of late, I am tempted to change my blog name to 'GODDESS LILY'. If I could remember how to get to that profile thing, I would. In the meantime, please refer to me as Goddess Lily.

Thank you.

Goddess Lily

Lin said...

1 Timothy 2:15 is an intriguing verse: 'But women will be saved through childbearing.' One compelling translation for this verse is, 'Women will be kept safe through childbearing,' where Paul uses the word for childbearing as a sort of shorthand for the woman's involvement in the domestic sphere--having her 'focus on the family,' so to speak."

Perfect example of pink and blue hermeneutics at work here. If that is what that verse means that barren women are not saved. Neither are spinsters. It is FALSE teaching.

Lin said...

Oh, if that last one is true then Lottie Moon is NOT saved.

Ya gotta wonder why Paul said it is better for some not to marry so they can devote themselves to Christ. Hmmmmm.

Lily said...

Or maybe this would be better:

Lily, Goddess of the Buzzards

Lin said...

In contrast ladies, , my use of the word " bizzare" pales exceedingly in comparison.

Juss sayin'

7:10 PM, January 17, 2008

True. But you get the prize for QUANTITY.

gmommy said...

Excuse me...blog friends..
Please stop.....
we are beginning to look like another blog.

I disagree with almost all of the assumptions about what women need or want or what they should be for men BUT I don't think that "feminism" has helped women in the least.

Not enough energy to elaborate but I think there is a difference between "feminism" and the wrong way that PP and so called Christian men look down on and degrade women...

but yall are stressing me out....

oc said...

Lin said:
'Some p[eople think that is so horrible but my parents were in love with one another. It showed every day and I praise God for it.

oc says:
I would have given both my arms for that.
Instead, I needed both of them to stop my dad from killing my Mom.

The point? Not really sure I have one. Except this... it's real easy to bully someone...but it takes a real man to truly love.
Lin, I'm glad your Dad was a real man.


jussayin'.
oc.

concernedSBCer said...

Lynn: Your 6:16 post was RIGHT ON. You stated that very well and I 100% agree with you.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lin wrote:

"My mom was not real domestic so she hired a housekeeper. She was not a great cook, so we ate out a lot."

Too bad they weren't offering those homemaking courses at the seminary back then. Hey, maybe we could take up a collection and send SOTL now!

concernedSBCer said...

You know, I've been reading all this debate and I have a thought.....according to my understanding we were all made in God's image (yes, I saw that debate too...horse hockey..... check out Genesis...God made woman just as He made man) and not only were we all made in His image, Jesus died for each of us. We are all priests.....at least, I believe in the priesthood of the believer. I do think, in a perfect world, men and women have specific strengths, but last time I checked, we don't live in perfect. So all that to say that God guides me just as he guides men, and He loves me the same, and I serve Him the same.

Lin said...

gmommy, anytime 'they' want to avoid discussing CONTENT, they use the word feminist. That is all it takes to conjure up bra burnings.

I am a wee bit sick of it. My views are 'feminist'. They are normal. They are Biblical.

If the comps spent as much time on their relationship with Christ as they did on all the rules and regulations of 'compland'...they would not need rules! But then, they would NOT sell as many books either and their incomes would dry up. It is like book/conference of the month with those people.

ya wanna know soemthgn even more interesting? They refuse to debate serious conservative, seminary educated egalitarians. Why? Because they cannot answer serious questions except to repeat their mantras over and over. They can't explain away the inconsistenceis in the Greek or the apparent contradictions in scripture except to say they are 'non-normative'.

If being a feminist means to them that I want a deeper understanding of scripture then call me one.

Lin said...

"My views are 'feminist'."

OOPS. My views are NOT feminist. And no, that is NOT a Freudian slip. He was an atheist.

-Big Burqua

oc said...

Nass:
Yeah whatever. SOTL Goes To Seminary. Might be a good movie, but probably not a good reality show...someone might get hurt there...and I'm bettin' it won't be SOTL.

jussayin'.
oc.

New BBC Open Forum said...

From Merriam Webster's Dictionary:

Main Entry: fem·i·nism
Pronunciation: \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1895
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
— fem·i·nist \-nist\ noun or adjective
— fem·i·nis·tic \ˌfe-mə-ˈnis-tik\ adjective

Wow, definition #1 is certainly a radical concept, isn't it? Note it doesn't say anything about one sex being "superior to" or "in authority over" the other. Believe it or not, "feminist" isn't a four-letter word, any more than "Democrat" is. It's the extremes to which both the left and right wing fringes have taken those concepts that have corrupted them.

If it were not for those "radical feminists" of the late 19th and early 20th centuries (see definition #2 above), women would still not have the right to vote in this country today. No doubt the "pats" of their day spoke of those men and women (a "feminist" isn't by definition a female) in the same unflattering terms Paige Patterson and "watchman" and others of that mindset use to describe feminists today -- all feminists, not just the radical ones.

Feminist, according to the Merriam Webster's definition, is one label I'm not ashamed to wear.

But boy, let's drop the dreaded "F" bomb whenever we disagree with someone else's interpretation of Scripture. That's a whole lot easier than actually discussing anything.

oc said...

Lin said:
If being a feminist means to them that I want a deeper understanding of scripture then call me one.


oc says:
Call me one too. If you dare. :)

jussayin'.
oc.

Churchmouse said...

Concerned,
I was thinking along those lines, myself. I just wanted to put in a sympathetic word for the guys.
The enemy is not one gender or the other. The enemny is not flesh and blood. The is spiritual, and roaming to and fro seeking whom he may devour.

concernedSBCer said...

To be truthful, the ERA has done me no favors.....if I hadn't had their help, I would have been taken care of after my husband left after 17 years of marriage. What did I get for taking care of his house and children while he pursued his degree and career? Nothing.

Not bitter, just stating a fact. There was a time not too long ago that infidelity mattered, and taking care of the wife mattered too. No more. We are all equal in the eyes of the courts.

There are pros and cons to everything.

concernedSBCer said...

Another thought.....being a man doesn't just mean they are "in charge" and boss of everything...men are also charged to love their wife as Christ loved the church. You show me a man who loves his wife like that and I'll show you a wife that has no problem submitting. Not because he's better than her, but because she trusts him.

gmommy said...

Concerned,
that's part of the ugly side of feminism.
We all have our prospective that we are coming from.

The day I had to go to court for my divorce....( my husband cheated numerous times and ran thru money to feed all his unfamily like little habits)I was asked by the judge if I were disabled.....
Why???
Becuase I only worked a part time "mom job" so that I could be home when my children came home from school.
The courts don't care that you or I worked to help our husbands get where they are today. It's perfectly fine with them if mothers are ripped from their children to work 50 ( or 62 :)hours a week just to squeak by....while the part time dads live much differently...
EXCEPT AOG!!!!!!!!

beat you to it :)

New BBC Open Forum said...

ABC's Nightline is running a story on Creflo Dollar right now. He said, "What makes you think Jesus was poor?"

Uh... maybe the fact that he didn't even have a place to lay his head?

gmommy said...

But what is there to "submit" to when a man is putting his wife before his own needs, respecting and honoring her???And she him????
The 2 are 1.

My daughter and son in law are both educated...their marriage is mutual respect and love ...and admiration for the gifts and talents the other has.
They submit to each other....and are having a blast.

allofgrace said...

There was a time when this blog was a place of sometimes deep theological discussion and discourse. Over the last several months however, it has become apparent that the level of vitriol, anger, character assassination and the like has ratcheted up more than a couple of notches. I think more see it than are willing to say anything about it, but I digress. It's one thing to hold a view of something, or have issues that are "close to the heart", but of late it's become hard to tell whether they are truly issues close to the heart or just an ax to grind. Perhaps since the battle for BBC is all but over, there's nothing left to fight except every last human being who dares to disagree on any number of issues. I've seen any number of people's names dragged through the mud, from John Calvin to Al Mohler, to who knows who'll be next. Just those two names alone being mentioned here in any positive manner is to subject onesself to the ire of resident expert historians who tell part of the story but not all. And speaking of the "faggot" who lit the fire under Servetus, who by the way, was under a death sentence in most every country in Europe, and was put to death by the Genevan city council...how many men have been burned in effigy on this blog of late?..and for what reason?...because their views don't line up with the "normal" and "Biblical" view of the resident expert...isn't that the very accusation laid at Calvin's feet? Should I really believe that anyone who holds a differing view just doesn't understand the Scriptures or have knowledge of the Greek and should just "get it together" and snap in line with your own understanding, lin? Are you really that studied and scholarly...an expert in the Greek language..so much so that we should just write off those who've spent decades studying the languages of Scripture and yet still don't agree with you?...I guess any of us who don't should just pack it up, forget it, and bow to your superior knowledge. The irony is you display the same attitude you accuse those you disagree with of having. If anyone thinks I'm being a little harsh towards lin, consider these few choice nuggets..."comps", "compland", "pink" and "blue" hermeneutics. "If the comps spent as much time on their relationship with Christ as they did on all the rules and regulations of 'compland'...they would not need rules!". I suppose that lin's is the only walk that's worthy of the Lord? Lin, I've always respected you, but lately you've made that difficult for me...not because of your views..I've disagreed with you before without losing any respect or regard for you, but it's the manner in which you attempt to make your case. Derogatory tags and such don't promote serious dialog. There's been much talk about holiness, accountability, truth, and such on this blog..that's good..words have meaning..and weight. But they tend to lose both meaning and weight when discussion degenerates into what's been displayed here lately. If you really want a deeper understanding of Scripture then let this marinate a little...every last soul will give an account for every word spoken, openly and in secret. The book of James has much to say about the tongue..let's be careful to not become the one who speaks blessings out of one side of the mouth and cursings out of the other. When we feel inclined to rake someone over the coals, lets make sure we'd be as bold face to face...and remember it's very easy to say, "yea I'd say it to their face", when your behind a computer screen..not so much when you really are face to face. But we will be face to face with the Lord one day, and have to give an explanation...an account..I'm quite certain the Bible says that.

oc said...

Concernedsbcer said:

You know, I've been reading all this debate and I have a thought.....according to my understanding we were all made in God's image (yes, I saw that debate too...horse hockey..... check out Genesis...God made woman just as He made man) and not only were we all made in His image, Jesus died for each of us. We are all priests.....at least, I believe in the priesthood of the believer. I do think, in a perfect world, men and women have specific strengths, but last time I checked, we don't live in perfect. So all that to say that God guides me just as he guides men, and He loves me the same, and I serve Him the same.


oc says:

I sense you are indignant because you feel your priesthood has been discounted. And if that is indeed the case, then you should feel offended. If you feel it has been discounted, it is only because men have discounted it. God hasn't. The last I've seen, Galatians 3:28 is still in the Bible and still in force. There is no difference between us in the eyes of God. We are all one in Christ Jesus.

And we can be disappointed in our "leaders" all we want.
But we alone are responsible for our own relationship with God.
I think we often tend to lean on these "leaders" too much. Often it becomes a counterfeit for a personal relationship with Him. And that will always disappoint. But it is far more comfortable for us to hear the Word from the preacher than to be confronted with the Word from Him. Whenever we lean on a human being instead of the Lord, we lean on nothing.
I think the Lord can do fine without those who seem to want to prove that otherwise.

In the end, it is between He and me. Not my preacher, not my teacher, not my kid, my friend, not even my Momma, but only He and me.


Stick to your guns sister. We see your aim is true. Fire away!

jussayin'.
oc.

oc said...

Listen people. John Calvin is not God.

jussayin'.

oc said...

I sense a little ego damage happening...

Which may lead to humility...

Which may result in grace...

jussayin'.
oc.

oc said...

And what's all this "horse hockey" about? Heard that a couple of times now...

Sounds kinda exciting. Can these ponies actually deliver a slap shot? Sure would like to see them crashing the boards. And those hip checks...


Hey, I was at a fight, and a horse hockey game broke out...




Can I watch it on ESPN?

oc said...

Waiting til you settle down a bit, AOG. Take a deep breath, brother.

Jussayin'.
oc.

amazed said...

NBBCOF--There is an excellent article in todays Wall Street Journal on-line titled "Banned From Church". See if you can find it and post it on here. You have to admire the little old lady involved and some of the churches that are named are familiar to us.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Very good article, "amazed." I read the story when it came out a few months ago, but that's the best coverage I've seen. I'll use it to start a new thread.

New BBC Open Forum said...

While I'm preparing the new thread, here is an article detailing all the things that can go wrong when live animals are used in church productions.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you, "watchman." I already have it and will be using it in a new thread shortly.

New BBC Open Forum said...

ATTENTION SHEEPS!

THERE'S A NEW THREAD DEALING WITH THE WSJ ARTICLE. YOU MAY GO THERE TO DISCUSS THAT, OR YOU MAY CONTINUE TO DISCUSS THE DARRELL GILYARD STORY HERE SINCE THIS STORY IS FAR FROM OVER.

Thank you,

NBBCOF

Lin said...

AOG, The Holy Spirit beat you to a rebuke. I really do feel bad about 'how' I have presented things.

I can remember my mom witnessing and teaching young men the gospel all the time. It was just who she was. Back then, she would witness to young muslim men!

Now by so many in our denomination she is considered in sin, rebellion and wicked. It grieves me to no end.

The early church did not have these 'institutions' and pulpits. They were just a Holy Priesthood meeting to worship God, learn and use their gifts.

I ask forgiveness of everyone here. And please, bring on rebukes when I need them. Does not mean I change my biblical view but I could be more gentle in sharing them.