Monday, December 17, 2007

Some Thoughts on "Church Authority" and "Church Discipline"

Wade Burleson, on his blog, Grace and Truth to You, wrote this article entitled Church Authority: What It Is And What It Is Not in which he reprints this article, Authority in the Local Church, from his father Paul Burleson's blog.

In response, Chuck Andrews wrote this article, Authority, Leadership, & Relationships.

Wade Burleson also wrote this article, Are We Southern Baptists Becoming a Benign Cult? The Danger of Casually Dismissing Scripture When Defining 'True' Christianity.

How do these ideas relate to the abuse of "church authority" being witnessed in churches today? Are we seeing this type of abuse of authority in Bellevue Baptist Church? Please cite specific examples.

Mac Brunson, pastor of FBC Jacksonville, Florida, recently modified their church's bylaws to include a church disciplinary committee.

Dr. Adrian Rogers did something similar at Bellevue over ten years ago with the formation of a Church Displinary Council except that it's not a part of the bylaws. As we know, these are the bylaws of BBC, written in 1929, and for the most part they are ignored by the church administration. Here are the bylaws transcribed.

Has the Church Disciplinary Council ever been utilized since its formation?

Thanks to "junkster" for this topic idea.

674 comments:

1 – 200 of 674   Newer›   Newest»
watchman said...

The issue is FINAL AUTHORITY

Do You Have a FINAL AUTHORITY ..

oR dont you ?????

This is the preeminent question for those calling themselves Christians in 2007.

Read all about it.

GODS FINAL AUTHORITY

Scion said...

Obviously, Steve Gaines has no idea that there is a Church Disciplinary Council. If he did, then they would have used it to remove Mark Sharpe, Josh Manning, and other "trouble-makers" before the media attention grew as big as it did.

What I am curious to know is if there is a committee whose job is to decide the fate of ministers who have gone astray?

watchman said...

And here is part 2 ..
of GODS FINAL AUTHORITY

GODS FINAL AUTHORITY PART 2

Lily said...

Is there still a Church Disciplinary Council at BBC? If so, where is it listed? Who is on the Council? I know if we asked the Administration what the answer would be - "Shoo, go away".

Cakes said...

Watchman,

Those are not enlightening--they're scary.

The author says the KJV is the final authority, yet won't be troubled to qualify it. Why not any other version. Who presumes the moral character of scribes in 1611. Do you know what was going on in the world and the church at the time?

Should I take this dude's word for it?

New BBC Open Forum said...

scion wrote:

"Obviously, Steve Gaines has no idea that there is a Church Disciplinary Council. If he did, then they would have used it to remove Mark Sharpe, Josh Manning, and other "trouble-makers" before the media attention grew as big as it did."

I don't think that's obvious at all. I don't think Steve Gaines would ever attempt to use it for something like that. If he wasn't willing to bring PW up for church discipline, then he wouldn't dare try it against the "troublemakers." Talk about unwanted media attention! He doesn't have the grounds or the guts.

And just for the record, I don't think Mac Brunson has the grounds or guts to use FBC Jax's new displinary committee either. It's simply an intimidation tactic.

ezekiel said...

Nass,

Exactly. Even if they did throw you out...John 9:34 comes to mind....

New BBC Open Forum said...

Serious question: What then was the "final authority" before 1611?

allofgrace said...

The final authority is God's word...not necessarily the 1611 KJV of it however...the Geneva bible served those first settlers in this country very well..there are other good translations as well. Granted not all translations are faithful to the manuscripts, but the KJV has no authority in and of itself...and it certainly isn't the only GOOD translation. The King James onliests mistakenly think that it "corrects" the original manuscripts, and is somehow "more" inspired than the Greek and Hebrew text.

Jamey said...

What if you can't read King's english? i.e. people from different countrys

New BBC Open Forum said...

These were linked to from that same site:

Santa Claus - The Great Imposter

Scrooge!

To Be a Good Wife

That one has been floating around the internet for years. Snopes information.

Junkster said...

Two quotes from the "Final Authority" articles...

OK. I'll just say it outright. The AV 1611 King James Bible is God's final authority for mankind today.

... and ...

Further, most any dimwit can figure out that personal opinion makes for a sorry final authority.

Pure irony that the author (Pastor Kyle Stephens) couldn't see that his first statement is nothing more than a personal opinion (and a particularly uninformed one at that). He further said:

Look, I don't profess the expertise of a lifelong linguist, manuscriptologist, theologian, researcher or scholar.

Yet he has no problem speaking "authoritatively" out of his ignorance. As Larry the Cable guy would say, "Now that's funny, right there; I don't care who ya are."

Right off the bat what could be an interesting discussion topic (if I may say so myself) has been hijacked by an inane, obtuse, and absurd irrelevancy.

Now, does anyone care to discuss the real topic of NASS' post instead of this silly sidetrack of the notion that the KJV translation is inspired?

ezekiel said...

Benign cult?

Isn't that sort of like saying "a little bit pregnant"?

I don't think it is that hard to see that a lot of what we call religion today is a cult. And to say that it is benign is at best an extreme understatement. In the end it means death....

If we look at the things we do today through the lens of the OT, it becomes rather obvious that what we do is much like what Israel did. And died for.

We practice a religion with man made rules. If you don't think so try looking at drinking, tithing and church discipline and compare it to what the Word says. In all of these cases, one finds that rather than follow biblical guidelines, we are off on a tangent of man made edicts, man made discipline committees and everything else. Does anyone else find it odd that we have strong aversion to drink which is not "prohibited" anywhere in scripture yet when it comes to tithing, we enforce OT leagalism intended for Jews?

People are willing to fight and die for untruth, unbiblical stands on many ridiculous, division causing precepts of men and call them doctrine today.

That is a cult. A club. One that has added to or taken away from God's word. And it is easy to do. Rather than consider the Word inerrant and learn and study it, we rely on a man to tell us what is in it. Suddenly the doctrine of the Word becomes whatever a man is willing to tell us. Not unlike the scribes and pharisees in Israel's day. They claimed to worship God but didn't. They said they were, may have even believed they were, yet in the end what they were doing was worshipping idols, the work of man's hands. Many churches and people commit the same error today.

Does BBC suffer from this problem? In my opinion, yes. But we can't stop there. We can take that on up to the SBC and organized religion everywhere.

Lynn said...

Ezekiel said...

We practice a religion with man made rules. If you don't think so try looking at drinking, tithing and church discipline and compare it to what the Word says. In all of these cases, one finds that rather than follow biblical guidelines, we are off on a tangent of man made edicts, man made discipline committees and everything else. Does anyone else find it odd that we have strong aversion to drink which is not "prohibited" anywhere in scripture yet when it comes to tithing, we enforce OT leagalism intended for Jews?"


Now that you mention it, it is odd. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the bible only refer to drunkeness? Also, if I recall, Jesus did turn water into wine.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

Happy Seasonal Regards!!

My Loney Puritanical upbringing is so deeply embedded as to not allow me to say X-mas.(please spare me the lectures and righteous indignation about saying X-mas)

I like the topic. The church that we went to growing up had a 'church disciplinary council' also...I believe it was called the 'congregation'.

But, today's world has changed, along with all these new-fangled gadgets like VCR's, cassette players, cordless telephones, deodorant, and air conditioners.

Oh, to be back under the porch at our shack on Loney Mountain..."Goodnight Mama Loney...Goodnight Phel...Goodnight uncle Cyndi...Goodnight cousin Nutria...Goodnight unnamed ferral boy that we found out by the burn piles..."

then, everyone in chorus: SHUTUP BILL!!!

O, how my heart cockels are warmed!

William T. Loney, MD

PS...I still am kinda sore that unnamed ferral boy got to sleep in the house while I had under the porch quarters...I guess it pays to be house-broken

all2jesus said...

new bbc open forum said...
scion wrote:

"Obviously, Steve Gaines has no idea that there is a Church Disciplinary Council. If he did, then they would have used it to remove Mark Sharpe, Josh Manning, and other "trouble-makers" before the media attention grew as big as it did."


I don't think that's obvious at all. I don't think Steve Gaines would ever attempt to use it for something like that. If he wasn't willing to bring PW up for church discipline, then he wouldn't dare try it against the "troublemakers." Talk about unwanted media attention! He doesn't have the grounds or the guts.


This is a demonstrated fact. A deacon asked Steve Gaines during a meeting why Mark Sharpe had not been subjected to church discipline (Mark had even requested it.) He replied "Church discipline is a slippery slope." Yeah, and he'd have been the one wearing greased clown shoes.

gimommo said...

Merry Christmas, Dr Looney.
Hope you'll be safe and warm!

ezekiel said...

And while we are talking about cults....lets' go ahead and toss this into the mix.

Membership. How do we define it, and how do we accomplish it.

Does anyone else see any parallels between Israelites, God's chosen people, claiming salvation because they are blood relatives of Abraham and modern day Gentiles claiming to be spiritual descendants of Abraham?

Scripture does. Romans 1,2 and 11 do. Hebrews 3,4,6 do. Try reading Romans 11:20-36 and then think of what we call the "security of the believer" doctrine today. Better known as "once saved always saved".

Does anyone else find it to be a bit of a paradox to on one hand say that a religious ceremony (walking the isle and believers baptism) is the way to get saved and once it happens it is permanent and assured but then when one questions immoral behaviour or decidedly unchristian living by that individual we are then told "well that means they were never saved to begin with"?

Anything that is not based on faith like Abraham had that resulted in immediate, unquestioning obedience to the WORD looks to be more likely membership into something other than salvation, aka His rest (Heb 4:11-12).

What seperated Abraham from the Israelites that died in the wilderness? Both had undeniable evidence and proof of God's existance.

Just as today, we have all sorts of proof and evidence of God's existance. And we have even more. We have proof of His Son crucified and Risen. So we have knowledge just as Israel did and even more than they did. But the real question is do we have faith like Abraham (Gen 15)? Do we have faith that results in obedience? Or are we just members of a club/cult that is destined to die in the wilderness like Israel did. Or die in Jerusalem (the church) like Israel did?

A bit of history we find convenient to overlook. Israel in the wilderness and in Jerusalem were God's chosen people. Today, the gentiles are until the time of the gentiles is fulfulled. Today, God is the same God that he was then. Are we (his chosen ones) making the same mistakes they did then?

ezekiel said...

Lynn,

Exactly. From everything I have read, there was one family back in the 1/2 kings days that had a prohibition on drinking, and nazarines (sp?) didn't drink either. If memory serves, John the Baptist was one of these. I think Jesus was accused of being a wine bibber. (Luke 7:33)

Folks will toss out all sorts of things like "causing a brother to stumble" and so on to insist on a total prohibition. That is why we use grape juice in observance of the Lord's Supper today. It didn't have anything to do with wine being stronger today than it was then, or as some claim, it was all just juice back then as well...

I don't think it is a particularly good hill to die on but use it as an example of the way man's rules creep in and become part of the Gospel...They couldn't do that if folks would read and obey the WORD.

Scion said...

Regarding "Church Discipline":

Isn't it interesting that the words 'disciple' and 'discipline' are similar in spelling?

We are disciples of Christ.

DISCIPLE: a person who is a pupil or an adherent of the doctrines of another; follower.

DISCIPLINE: behavior in accord with rules of conduct; behavior and order maintained by training and control; OR: to bring to a state of order and obedience by training and control; OR: to punish or penalize in order to train and control; correct; chastise.

Read the definition of discipline. Then decide for yourselves which of these three interpretations do our church leaders have in mind when they say Disciplinary Council.

watchman said...

Sure a lot of heat and fury over the awful sin of elevating GODS WORD as mans' FINAL AUTHORITY and loving GODS TRUTH over mans' perversions of it.

In that light, an excellent book detailing the rock solid Eternal TRUTH of the King James Bible is detailed in this hardcover book by William Grady.

FINAL AUTHORITY

allofgrace said...

The idea of church discipline being a "slippery slope" is laughable. The slippery slope exists where there is no discipline. Church discipline is an act of love...careful study of the Scriptures will reveal that to be true. I would go as far to say that a church which does not practice biblical church discipline is not a biblical church. The local church is God's arm of authority in the Christian's life on this earth...if the church does not fulfill that God-ordained role, then everyone ends up doing what is right in their own eyes...and we know how that ends up. An actual case in point from a well known church that will remain unnamed... No names here for obvious reasons, but a brother's wife left him...he and his family were long-time members...his wife began showing up with her new boyfriend and sitting together in the very spot that this family once sat. This brother approached the deacon body over this matter and was simply told, "we're not going to get involved in that". Not only is this gross failure in this one instance, but allowing such things to go on in plain view of the membership encourages others to be just as brazen. Is this biblical?...I think not. But this is merely a symptom of what is wrong among Baptists in our time. The denomination reports bloated numbers every year...huge membership rolls in which in most cases more than half of those on roll can't be located, and many which haven't been known of for years. The reason given for not purging those rolls of "inactive" "members" is that these are considered prospects for evangelism...evangelistic prospects?...get serious...that idea goes against the grain of one of the major distinctives of Baptists...regenerate church membership. Ballyhooing missions and evangelism rings hollow in a denomination which by and large refuses to lovingly discipline those already under their care. The question must be answered...who's glory matters...God's or the SBC's?

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Heat and fury"? Where? I missed that.

Okay, watchman. Let me repeat my earlier question which AOG answered (thank you, AOG), but since you brought up the subject in the first place and seem to feel so strongly about it, I'd like to hear your take on it. What did people go to as "final authority" before 1611?

I agree there have been some sorry "translations" of the Bible, especially the past few years. However, the KJV was also a translation of the original Greek and Hebrew transcripts. I agree that probably overall the KJV is the best of the lot but IMO not the only one. And Jamey had a good point, too. What about those who can't read the King's English?

Also, what about different interpretations of the same translation? I have heard arguments over the correct interpretation of particular passages of Scripture. Both sides were using the KJV, but the "winner" to me was the person who could go back to the Greek and Hebrew and back up his argument with the oldest available "final authority." English is a difficult language, and words mean different things depending on the context. Sometimes what may be an "obvious" meaning in English is something quite different when read in the original manuscripts. That's not saying the KJV is wrong, just that our interpretation of it sometimes is. I could give a good example, but it would start WWWIII here and throw what's left of this topic completely off track... so I won't.

Churchmouse said...

I don't think the existance of Bellevue's Church Disciplinary Council was even relevant after Dr. Rogers retired. Everything traditional went out the window, including Matthew 18, any authority held by the deacon body, church bylaws, etc.

The organized church we have always known, with its denominations, is looking like a pan of scrambled eggs, with all this new "religion" holding the spoon. (We know it isn't really new, at all.)

How does authority come out of a mess like that, when the FINAL AUTHORITY is being rejected.

larry said...

allofgrace:
The King James onliests mistakenly think that it "corrects" the original manuscripts, and is somehow "more" inspired than the Greek and Hebrew text.


aog,

Interesting. Is the belief that the KJV corrected scribal errors or the actual original inspired texts?

notso said...

allofgrace,

You are correct that "church discipline" should NOT be the slippery slope that Steve Gaines states publicly.

My take is that he won't practice Matthew 18 or any form of church discipline if he can't be the judge, jury, and hangman.

If church discipline existed at Bellevue, he would have been hauled into the church discipline system long ago.

Now, we have other staff leaders, deacons, and teachers who have swallowed and followed (chuck taylor's quote) Steve Gaine's line of reasoning.

I know of a deacon/teacher of adults who is telling his class that since Steve Gaines has not committed adultery or stolen $100,000 from the church that we know of, he is not going to hold Steve accountable for his other indiscretions.

There you have it. Situational ethics at it's worst. Now we have deacons and teachers who are accepting lying, secrecy, intimidation, trespassing, and more lying because in their eyes, that's not so bad compared to adultery or stealing.

My question for this deacon and others would be what list of sins or the size of a sin would it take to cross the line when it comes to a pastor or other leader?

Last time I checked, a pastor was supposed to be above reproach.

The church needs to wake up to church discipline and start at the top. I'm afraid money has so infected the minds and hearts of men inside the church, they are willing to do anything to maintain the status quo and maintain their business contacts.

allofgrace said...

Larry,
Having a preference for the KJV doesn't necessarily make one a King James onliest. There are extremists who literally believe that the KJV is more precise and corrects the original manuscripts...in other words, God somehow inspired a new version of the Scriptures that corrects, or is more inspired than the original autograph. I'll agree with these folks that not every translation is a faithful one, but I part ways with them in thinking that the KJV..1611 or otherwise is the only version that is not "of the devil". There's nothing wrong with having a preference for the KJV...actually I like the KJV of the OT Scriptures. However, in all honesty the KJ English gives me a headache in the NT Scriptures, especially Paul's writings. What about those who have translations in their native languages?...are they reading an incorrect version?...every language has it's own nuances. Do these KJV fanatics believe that unless one speaks/reads English (KJ Engish at that) they are reading a bible that is in error? The problem isn't so much which version someone reads...it's the failure to obey what can be clearly understood from any reliable translation.

gimommo said...

notso said...
I'm afraid money has so infected the minds and hearts of men inside the church, they are willing to do anything to maintain the status quo and maintain their business contacts.

gmommy says
You hit the nail on the head there !!!!!

it tickles me that there has been talk on other blogs and from well meaning individuals that we... who dare have a difference of opinion concerning Biblical standards.....
should have church discipline.

Wouldn't someone dishing it out have to CARE first??

At RO, a member that broke her marriage vows and home, was ministered to by the pastors and elders for 2 years.....
she wasn't interested in repentance or restoration but they cared enough about her to try and help and restore her and her family.
A few weeks ago her name was called after a sermon on church discipline. She is no longer able to take the Lord's supper there and I'm not sure what else. But I think that's good.

Covering up for sin and renaming it is wrong....which ever version of the Bible you use. It is ALWAYS about the heart...not just the mind.

It starts with leadership. They should be above reproach. How else can you ask for repentance
(not, I'm sorry, but brokenness and turning away from)
from someone else and not live it/believe it yourself.

It didn't work for parents to say and do opposite things.....doesn't work in the church...how dysfunctional..at the very LEAST!!!

BTW...talked to a gentleman that prayed with SG about all that has gone on.....
SG prayed out loud with him...
God, IF I have done ANYTHING to hurt anyone, forgive me...I don't know what I have done wrong, but IF I have, GOD....forgive me.

Had my child said something like that to me.....well..it would not have worked.

Hey , Merry Christmas to all!!!!

Lin said...

" In all of these cases, one finds that rather than follow biblical guidelines, we are off on a tangent of man made edicts, man made discipline committees and everything else. Does anyone else find it odd that we have strong aversion to drink which is not "prohibited" anywhere in scripture yet when it comes to tithing, we enforce OT leagalism intended for Jews?"

EZ, Don't even get me started! :o)

I just finished a 30 week study on "the law" and am amazed at how much we have brought into the NT that is just NOT there. Or why we want the 10-C in schools when we are not even under them anymore.

And to think of all the teaching in the NT we ignore instead!

Lin said...

"The idea of church discipline being a "slippery slope" is laughable. The slippery slope exists where there is no discipline."

Oh, I think many churches practice what they 'think' is church discipline. I have seen it too many times. Problem is that it is not bliblical. They 'discipline' those who disagree or question leadership. they are quite pious about it, too.

Since we are all merely depraved humans saved by grace, we can only discipline an erring brother or sister with tears in our eyes and with the goal of them being restored one day if possible.

Church discipline is something for the entire body exactly as Paul wrote the letter to ALL the body on this issue...not a few men with an earthly title. It is for the spiritually mature brothers and sisters which many churches lack. The problem becomes when a few titled people are handed power to practice church discipline and see it as a way to control others. They start believing their title confers spirituality.

They do not understand that in the NT, leadership is servanthood.

Lin said...

There are a lot of things that bug me about the KJV as there is with all translations. One thing that bothers me the most is the political and magisterial climate at the time this was translated.

I will mention one thing that bothers me about it that is kind of subtle. The book of Revelations is titled: The Revelation FROM John.

It is not. It is a Revelation TO John. (I know...small thing but it bugs me to no end!)

watchman said...

To my Friends and to the newly and apparently annoyed.

My warmest wishes for this Christmas Season and for 2008 to all on NBBCOF.

Upon reflection of my initial post , I read and see the following.......
So far..No "specific answer"...to the very "specific question"..
Do you have a FINAL AUTHORITY ?

Do You ? It is a simple question !!! Why the heat ? Why the anger ? Why the outrage ? HMMM???????????

The myriad of responses is actually exactly what one can expect to get today in most Churches and in most Semetaries,..ughhh Seminaries...

A lot of very thinly veiled anger, sarcasm, and long expected predictable heat ...along with some semi-scholarly sounding references to unseen and unused manuscripts, but unfortunately, and disappoitingly,...not very many of these kinds of answers at all >>>>> YES'S !!! <<<<<

I , speaking for myself, cannot and will not ever apologize for having a FINAL AUTHORITY...!!!

It is My Quick and Powerful two-edged Sword..and It is My Guide, and it is My Lamp and it is My Healing Balm, and it is My Light unto My path.

I sincerley pray that you will all get one too...
anything less is a sure fire recipe for Satans attack upon GODS TRUTH..and leads to evolutionary Satanic drifting........in ome of what now is 250 directions...( uhhh versions) .

I have to wonder just how many more versions of The Bible will the devil and his scholars be making up by the year 2050 ?
350 ? 500? All in the name of SATANIC RELEVANCE.

Satan has many more years and and many more scholarly types that are just itching to " improve" upon GODS WORD through addition or subtraction.

Too bad adding or subtracting from GODS ETERNAL WORD damns souls to HELL.

I just wanted to never say that I was too afraid or was politically correct and spiritually anemic in America 2007 of the sure-fire flap and fury of naysayers, when I say that God is either TRUTHFUL when He said He would PRESERVE HIS WORD FOREVER...(and HE HAS KEPT and PRESERVED HIS WORD, ...FOREVER..( which He Has, I have a copy of it ) ...or , we are left with mere mens opinions. ( Which we are NOT )

Until that central issue is settled...all of the other millions of issues matter nothing.

I know this topic is the infamous 3rd rail of Christendom...

But in this confused and doctrinally drifting sin sick America, ...someone needs to state the obvious once in a while..No matter the voltage.

This will be my very last post ; as I sense that a deep chord has been struck and unexplainable anger is the resulting fruit.

Well,....enjoy the barbecue ,
I have posted in earnest.

Gods Blessings and may you all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

eprov said...

church discipline back in the day.....
My dad, who was a Baptist preacher, told of the time when he was 19 that he and his brother had strayed from the 'path' and got drunk. They both still lived at home. My grandfather being a proper deacon in the small, rural Baptist church in the small community where they lived, stood up in the monthly business meeting and made a motion to exclude both his sons from membership in the church. The church members voted in one accord and took this action.
From what was told, there was no need for discussion or debating the issue. It was what it was.
The dread, NOT the humiliation, of being excluded from the fellowship of the church was more than the wayward sons could handle. They in short order made their penance and were restored to fellowship.
That seems to me to be a scriptural practice.
Since they only had a one-Sunday-a-month pastor, the church took care of business without a dictator. Sorry, I meant without a full time pastor.
Cannot confirm if they used the KJV 1611 or not. I know for certain it wasn't The Living Bible. If you have ask me HOW I know that, you are too young!

New BBC Open Forum said...

watchman,

I'm afraid I don't sense the "anger and outrage" you say that you do. I'm certainly not angry with you or anyone who ascribes to your viewpoint.

I wasn't aware that you were asking each of us for an answer to your question, but for me, the Bible is most assuredly my "final authority." Where I disagree is with your assertion that the KJV is the ONLY translation that has merit. It is the translation I prefer, but I don't agree with every interpretation of it I've heard. I just don't think every other translation was "inspired by Satan." But just because we don't agree on this one point doesn't mean I'm angry with you. You're the one who brought up the subject in the first place. You had to know not everyone would agree with you 100%.

I do hope I'm reading your "enjoy the barbecue" comment the wrong way. Surely you're not saying everyone who doesn't agree to the letter with you on this subject is condemned to hell!

eprov said...

watchman......
and you depart putting yourself in the category of a nut.
Sorry, the only enlightenment you will ever get is because of the 3rd person in the Trinity - the Holy Spirit. He will guide you to Truth.
Otherwise it is your own intellect you have to rely on. God help the many believers in other times who didn't even have the ability to read! And those who have no access to the KJV 1611. Where does your position leave them?

gimommo said...

Hey Watchman,
No anger here....I'm just not one of the Biblical scholars on this blog. I actually don't know enough about the differen versions...
other than what I have learned on our blog....to discuss it.

My daddy didn't allow any other version so the most rebellious I got was a NEW KJV.
the only thing I can contribute is that whatever SG and BBC and the SBC is recommending....I'll pass.

Merry Christmas to you too!!!:)

allofgrace said...

Annoyed?...actually I've always seen the "KJV only" controversy as rather amusing. It appears that it's someone else who's annoyed. Personally I keep a comparative study bible around...KJV, NIV, and NASB. I usually compare a passage side by side...by and large, though the wording may differ in each, they are almost always saying exactly the same thing. But you don't have to be a "semi-scholar" to do that. There are any number of reference tools which are easily used by the layman to search out the Hebrew and Greek words to see if there's any deviation in a translation. The NIV probably has more differences among those three, however there are always footnotes which clarify that some portions are "not included in some manuscripts", or give alternate translations from other manuscripts...so it's hard to say there's a deliberate attempt to deceive or lead astray. Like it or not, unless you have the original manuscripts in your hands, and can actually read them, we're going to have to depend on the scholarship of those who translate the Scriptures into English..or Spanish, or German, or.....

PS I too have a final authority...it's God's word...and not always from the same translation *gasp*...you can believe me when I say that when I read it, I generally "get it"...not because of my "scholarship", but because the Holy Spirit illumines it's truth.

larry said...

This is from the "Santa" article referenced earlier (yes, I finished my shopping early and had nothing better to do.)

Every time a so-called Christian child asks Santa for something, he is praying to Satan. With each request fulfilled, parents are unwittingly making a pact with the Devil. They may as well be writing in blood, 'Satan please distract our children from Jesus with all these shiny toys!'

Anyway, I don't ever want to cause any of my brothers here to stumble. So if you didn't get a present from me this year, that's why!

Merry Christmas!

watchman said...

No Nass..didnt mean it that way

By " barbecue " ..

I meant the kind of response eprov blessed me with.


God Bless

Watchman

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thanks for the clarification, "watchman"! I guess "eprov" thought that's what you meant, too.

Like AOG, I use a comparative Bible with four versions. (And no, "eprov," the Living Bible isn't one of them.) I still prefer the KJV, but it's sometimes helpful to see what the others say. There's seldom any difference in meaning, but other translations sometimes help me understand the KJV better. I don't know why that's a problem for anyone.

eprov said...

watchman.....
I have ALWAYS thot you brought balance and much needed insight.
Please note that I said that you put yourself in the 'category of a nut.'
I don't think you are but to place that burden or qualifier on another believer is insensitive, to put it mildly. I think we should find ways to extend God's grace in situations. Sharing and teaching the truth is our calling. Unfortunately to attack others with what is a debateable issue is divisive.
You are obviously many times more the Bible student than I. You have previously shown that with grace.
This time you didn't. My opinion only.
Peace.

Lin said...

Thanks, AOG. You said many of the things I was thinking. It is incredible how many free resources there are today online for Bible study. Anyone can study Greek now.

I like to use the parallel bible online and compare translations and check a Lexicon at the same time. (The Split screen feature is wonderful)

But the bottom line is that the Holy Spirit teaches as we study, pray and meditate on the Word.

Watchman, I am grieved about some of the statements in your last comment. Would you really throw us over because we are not KJV only? I pray your heart will change on that score.

ezekiel said...

These days, it is difficult to even get anyone to read any translation. I think the last thing we want to do is discourage anyone from reading God's Word. Regardless of the translation, as long as it is a translation. Not a paraphrase.

I agree with AOG and Eprov. The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. (John 16:13) The last time I checked, the Holy Spirit doesn't work exclusively through the KJV. I don't use a parallel bible but have the NASB, ESV, KJV, Hebrew-Greek Key word study Bible (KJV) and the Geneva bible. I have multiple copies of each from different publishers as well. I find that the references in each can vary a great deal, with some publishers including a lot more references and some not indluding any.

At times, I have found a particular scripture hard to grasp in one translation yet easy to comprehend in another. Other times the references are key to understanding and one translation by one publisher may have more references that aid in understanding than the same translation from another publisher.

Lately, I have been using Macsword on my mac computer. It is basically a virtual notebook that you can download various translations (ESV and KJV for me) into. The really cool thing about it is the ability to supersize text (this spring chicken can't see as well as I used to be able to) and to be able to customize it to include "clickable" references that show up in blue text in front of the text they pertain to. All you have to do is move the curser over the blue reference and a popup immediately shows the reference scripture. It has a very good search engine to be able to search each word, much like the Strongs Concordance. It is amazing how much better you can study when the references are so easy to get without all that flipping around. It also has the TSK references as most electronic bibles will have. This is an exhaustive list of references for each scripture verse. See the detail Here


Now as to the KJV 1611 AV....If that is the only authorized....final authority, someone may want to tell that to Paul. He seems to be a bit confused. According to him, Scripture was talking to Abraham...

Justified by faith

And Pharaoh

Scripture


Long before 1611...

Just read Him folks, in the translation you like the best. If the Holy Sprit moves you to hunger and thirst He will show you where the bread and wine are.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Larry wrote:

"So if you didn't get a present from me this year, that's why!"

May you find nothing but coal in your stocking Tuesday morning.

watchman said...

I changed my mind about this being my last post...

I wish to thank you for keeping the discussion as name-free and reasoned as it has been...

In that light, I offer the following evidences , which I 100 % concur with by the way.

How I KNOW that the KJV is GODS PRESERVED AND INNERANT AND ETERNAL WORD.

HOW I KNOW THAT THE KJV IS GODS PRESERVED WORD AND WORDS

ezekiel said...

Watchman,

This is an exerpt from your link and after scanning and running across this..(I wonder why the Holy Spirit highlighted it for me) I dismiss your entire argument and contention.

"The new translations produce EVIL fruit. The modern perversions of scripture are producing infidels who do not even know what the word of God is, much less where to find it. The new translations produce spiritual babies who are totally incapable of discussing Bible doctrine. The new versions produce NEWER versions, which produce MONEY for the publishers, and I Timothy 6:10 tells us that the love of MONEY is the root of all EVIL.

The Holy Spirit doesn't bear witness to the modern translations, but He DOES bear witness to the King James. I've always believed the KJV to be God's word, even before I was saved. No one ever told me to believe this, but the Holy Spirit just bore witness to the King James--not the others. "


Your gettin dangerously close to causing division among the bretheren...me and you... if you persist.

Maybe we should have had that barbeque after all...

New BBC Open Forum said...

watchman,

Welcome back. I "prefer" the KJV and I believe it. No apologies for using that term. I guess there are people who would like to get rid of the KJV in favor of more "modern" translations, but I don't think those are the people you're addressing here. I also respectfully disagree with much of what the author of that article wrote. IMO those were some very weak arguments.

eprov said...

watchman....
Not going there but I became aware, and even knew personally, some of the aggressive proponents of the KJV 1611 in the 60s and 70s.
Sorry. Revelations apart from Scripture are scary.
Many of the sects rely on that approach. Mormons, United Pentecostals, several of the Far East religions.
Here we are dealing with the sanctity of the Word of God. He said that He writes it on the hearts of men.
He gave Himself to reveal the Word to us.
He lives in us to guide us to Truth.
My brother, you are wrong on this path. This is heretical.
While I treasure the written Word, it is the LIVING Word that is life.

Junkster said...

And, once again, just when the discussion is getting good, this KJV business sidetracks it ...

No offense intended, watchman; I trust that you are a sincere believer who loves God. I just think you are wrong on this issue. And the articles you are referencing provide more heat than light.

God is my final authority, as He is of everyone else. His Word is truth.

Jamey said...

Can we go to the scripture to settle this debate. Please read the first chapter of John. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. No where do I see that the Word was the AD KJV.

concernedSBCer said...

Boy, I've been gone all day with holiday doings and I miss all the discussion.

I prefer KJV but do not think it is the only version. I, too, like a parallel Bible.

Church discipline........my understandinmg is that church discipline is ultimately to restore a brother (or sister) not send them packing. I think we need more of it, personally. Done correctly of course. The problem is today that we have become a culture of "can't judge someone else" or "that's between them and God" or "I can't get involved." The sure numbers of church-going, active if you will, believers that follow in the footsteps of unbelievers in divorce, white collar crime, etc. is astounding. IMHO, there needs to be accountability based on God's Word administered through a loving church designed to return to a believer to fellowship. Eprov, I loved the story of your Dad.....and thought it wonderful he became a pastor! AOG....I have seen firsthand situations as you described in your 8:11 am post and it tears people and churches and witnesses apart.

gimommo said...

Nighty everyone....
going to dream about rotel casseroles CSBCer...

If anyone here was responsible for the "early santa delivery"...thank you...very much :)

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Any of you BBC "old timers" remember the young black preacher, Darrell Gilyard? He preached at FBC Jax and BBC back in the 1980's...well, check out the FBC Jax Watchdog website for breaking news, and a rehash of his past that apparently very few of his church members at Shiloh Baptist Church in Jacksonville knew about....

Lynn said...

Just an offtopic note here:

Please keep my neice and nephew in your prayers. Their father passed away last night.

New BBC Open Forum said...

watchdog,

Well, that story certainly dragged the topic back on track! If ever there was a case for church discipline, this is it.

Why am I not surprised at these stories anymore? It seems to be a weekly occurrence. Everyone, read the comments in the latest two topics on the FBC Jax Watchdog blog. I thought it was interesting when someone stated s/he listened to Dr. Rogers introduce Darrell Gilyard at the "next Billy Graham." As the writer said, anyone can be deceived.

In a 1991 article, Paige Patterson was quoted:

"Darrell needs counseling to try to gain restoration with God and his family," Patterson said. "I think it is inappropriate for a person who has had this type of thing happen to him to be in the pastorate."

That's true, and I applaud PP's stance on it being inappropriate for Gilyard to be a pastor (notice he didn't say "the ministry"), but "the thing," as he referred to it, did not "happen to" Gilyard! Patterson makes it sound like the guy was an innocent victim. Then the next paragraph reads...

When allegations of sexual misconduct cropped up against Gilyard four years ago, Patterson said he counseled the young minister, who is married. Patterson said he advised Gilyard to avoid meeting alone with women and to avoid lengthy personal counseling sessions that might breed gossip.

Four years earlier? And all Patterson did was advise him not to meet alone with women? Never mind trying to get to the bottom of the allegations and attempting to hold the man accountable. Let's just not give the appearance of impropriety.

Yes, folks. The G.O.B. Club was alive and well in 1991, four years earlier, and it still is today.

Remember the motto:

"Grab broom. Assume the position. Lift rug... now sweep!"

A footnote:

If you watch the video of the Darrell Gilyard story on the Channel 47 website, I highly recommend you check out the "Local preacher sees Jesus in bathroom door" story! It's in the home of a Church of Christ pastor who says he's taking the door off its hinges and hauling it into his church in the morning. Some preachers will do anything to attract a crowd!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Excellent observerations NASS!!

I did note when Patterson said "...who has had this type of thing happen to him " as though someone had molested poor 'ole Darrell!!! He's a victim - these bad church members who needed counseling from their pastor must have seduced Darrell! HOW SICK!!!

But I missed on first reading that apparently good 'ole Paige Patterson knew of these kinds of allegations and just told him not to counsel women alone.

What's sick about the 1991 allegations against this guy is that he preyed on WOMEN HE WAS COUNSELING....so is it any wonder that he may be preying on a teenager?

I would not at all be surprised if all sorts of allegations come out at his church in Jax.

You ain't kidding that these mega church pastors stick together. As I pointed out on my blog, Jerry Vines preached at Gilyard's church just a few months after his retirement from FBC Jax. Poor judgement on Vines' part...but as Mac Brunson is preaching, who are we to judge? According to Mac the biggest problem we have in churches today is "judgemental and critical spirits".

New BBC Open Forum said...

watchdog wrote:

"What's sick about the 1991 allegations against this guy is that he preyed on WOMEN HE WAS COUNSELING.... "

That sounds a lot like a certain former Bellevue staff minister. He was reported to have preyed on women he was "counseling," too.

watchman said...

ezekiel...

Living Word versus Written Word?

Jesus Himself said..

when dealing with the Devil...

It is Written... time and time again.

250 different re-dos of The Bible and you find them all to be Holy Spirit inspired "improvements to the "Living Word " ?
Gender neutral Bibles? Bibles that omit 66,000 or more words ?Bibles that demean the Lordship of Jesus Christ? Bibles that promote a non-male , gender neutral cleansing of patriarchal authority?

Exekiel..

even the translators themselves have come out and admitted they too have been deeply distressed over the changes made...

One NASB translator ( FRANK lOGSDON ) went so far as to beg for Gods forgiveness and despaired that God held him in severe judgement for going along with the ERRONEOUS translation.

The story is here ..

BIBLE TRANSLATOR BEGS FOR GODS' FORGIVENESS FOR PARTICIPATING IN RE-WRITE

We must all be more careful before we call others " heretics" who oppose and decry changing GODS WORD.

gimommo said...

Nass,
What do you mean
"it was reported"??
It HAPPENED! To me and other women...fact.

watchman said...

The life story and factual account of a Bible Translator who TREMBLED IN FEAR and then renounced his involvement in the translation of the NASV translation and then confessed his errors relating to the NASV , and recanted and declared the KJV to be GODS WORD.

TRANSLATOR RENOUNCES TRANSLATION EFFORT AS SIN AGAINST GODS WORD

Jamey said...

rootsweb.com/~tnsumner/grime1.htm This is an intresting read on "The History Of Middle Tennessee Baptist".

New BBC Open Forum said...

History of Middle Tennessee Baptists

eprov said...

watchman.....
Questions -
1) Do you believe that someone who uses and only knows a per-version of the Bible is saved? Can they walk in fellowship with God? Can they pray in faith claiming the promises of God in the per-version they are using?
2) Can you have fellowship with those you come to know in Christ once you discover they do not use KJV 1611?
3) Is God's Word immutable? You are giving men the 'power' to change His Word so I am guessing you would have to say His Word is NOT immutable.

watchman said...

eprov..

If after 250 and counting per-versions of the Bible...with another coming out about every 6 months or so...

If you still refuse to beleive that there is a wholesale devillish attack upon GODS WORD..IN ORDER TO CREATE A SUBTREFUGE OF CONFUSION, and you stubbornly be;leive that all 250 are equally worthy of a Beleivers trust , then you have a faith that defies all reason and historical evidence.

But I do not begrudge you your right to do so. Just not for me..
no thanks

New BBC Open Forum said...

watchman wrote:

"If you still refuse to beleive that there is a wholesale devillish attack upon GODS WORD..IN ORDER TO CREATE A SUBTREFUGE OF CONFUSION... "

Nobody has disagreed with this point. The only thing people are saying is that there are a few other translations that help illuminate the KJV. They don't "add to" or "subtract from," they help people understand it better. There are some ridiculous "translations" of the Bible being published today, but not all are.

I, too, am curious to hear your answers to "eprov's" three yes-or-no questions.

eprov said...

watchman....
you paint with too broad a brush! Never, in any of my postings, have I indicated that I 'believe' in any per-version. As a matter of fact I lean very strongly to your position. I have always preferred the KJV 1611.
I was born and educated in a different era. I have studied a bit of Latin. I understand the structure of the King's English. God's Grace? Yes, for me it is.
But would I ever think that my young adult kids who don't have the formal approach to English that I did, and yet are considered educated, will be at any disadvantage to understand God's Word even though they may prefer a more 'user friendly' text? God's Grace? You know it!
Where sin abounds, grace is more abundant!!!
Amen and amen. He writes His Word on the hearts of men. That's the beautiful work of the Holy Spirit.
The written word we share is a feeble attempt by man to provide us with what was God-breathed, infallible, immutable, and in it's original form, without error.
You can never say that about any version available today because man has 'touched' it.

Lin said...

"Bibles that promote a non-male , gender neutral cleansing of patriarchal authority?"

Oh boy. Nass, you passed right over this one...I am biting my tongue off here...

It is kinda sorta related to the topic of the post: Authority. :o)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Did I hear a gunshot?

New BBC Open Forum said...

I do have a problem with Bible translations that use gender-neutral language simply to be politically correct when the original text wasn't gender-neutral. I also have just as big a problem with translations that incorrectly translate gender-neutral language or incorrectly translate the original language simply to promote "patriarchal authority" which is, IMO, an oxymoron. You're right, Lin. I missed the second part of that.

Lin said...

Did anyone read the article on church authority on this post? Here is F:

F. There is no emphasis in the New Testament on "authority" that is derived from an "office." The King James version translates the word "office" in Rom. 11:13, 12:4, and 1Tim 3:1. But in Rom. 11:13 it is the word "diakonia" or "service." In 12:4 it is "praxis" or "action/function." While in 1 Tim. 3:1 "office" is not in the text at all. The verse simply says in the original "if anyone aspires to oversight[episkope]"

Lin said...

Here is a link to a very interesting study on Hebrews 13 and authority.
Do Elders Rule

Here is an excerpt:

"Certainly, elders may be included in Hebrews 13:17, but this verse does not give authority to them in the same sense that is assumed and taught by so many today. Admittedly, if we accept the English words which have been supplied to us, first by the King James translators, and then by the translators of the past one hundred years, we might conclude the authoritarian position is correct. But we should do a word study to determine if we have been given the right English words that convey the proper meanings of the Greek words used in the text. I am convinced that the King James translators, laboring under an "institutional church" mentality, selected the strongest words possible which conveyed the idea that the people must submit to the authority of the Clergy. In this way King James could control the people through the Church, of which he was Supreme Ruler. (For more on this theme consult this author's article, "Church": From God or From Man?" The Examiner, January, Vol. 2, No. 1). Our word study will reveal that the most logical words which could have been chosen to give the true meaning of the originals were overlooked because they would "soften" tremendously the assumed sense of the verse and do away completely with the authoritarian emphasis."

watchman said...

eprov...and nass..in response to eprovs questions..

#1 Men are saved when Gods Holy Spirit regenerates them unto Saving Faith. The straw man as to whether that person saved will then use a counterfeit Bible is not a Salvific issue, but a Sanctification and sound doctrine issue. Both very vitally important to the individual and to the Body of Christ they engage with and any families they raise.

Of course, Gods Word is immutable..but the copyrighted perversions that have come out are not examples of a death to immutability, rather they are a poor counterfeit of GODS IMMUTABLE WORD, done by altering text, omitting text, and all in the name of relevannce, for which , if there really were 250 plus " improvements" made to GODS WORD..then mankind would be more Scripturally led, and Scripturally wise in America and the World..but..despite 250 retreads...and counting, the world has gone largely spiritually mad.

2) I am having fellowship in here , arent I ?

#3 Please see answer #1

Finally, I have some questions for you eprov and others .and will detail them shortly and with evident grace I pray.

Gods Blessings

watchman said...

lin...

If Patriarchal authority bothers you, your contention is not with me..it is with GOD Himself, since He instituted it and called it Holy and good.

watchman said...

The gender neutral controvery analyzed via Scripture itself and not politically charged feminism.
BIBLE IS PATRIARCHAL, ALWAYS HAS BEEN, ALWAYS WILL BE, UNLESS IT IS ALTERED AND THUS MUTILATED

Lin said...

If Patriarchal authority bothers you, your contention is not with me..it is with GOD Himself, since He instituted it and called it Holy and good.

1:54 PM, December 23, 2007

Where is that instituted in the NT? I missed that one.

Junkster said...

watchman said...
The gender neutral controvery analyzed via Scripture itself and not politically charged feminism.
BIBLE IS PATRIARCHAL, ALWAYS HAS BEEN, ALWAYS WILL BE, UNLESS IT IS ALTERED AND THUS MUTILATED


ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia

New BBC Open Forum said...

watchman,

Let me begin by saying I agree with the author that the use of masculine pronouns such as "he" and "man" or "mankind" to describe people in general is part of the English language and isn't a problem for me. I regularly use the term "he" in that context (or the even more gender-neutral "s/he") which is the correct form when referring to one person. Today people frequently use the politically correct but grammatically incorrect "they" or "them" instead of the singular form of the pronoun, but that's not the point of the article, is it? So with the grammar lesson out of the way...

From that article:

"In short, the Bible is by no means gender-neutral. It presents from beginning to end a thoroughly 'androcentric' perspective, and it often leaves it to the reader to decide what application to women or what inclusion of women is implied."

Silly me. I always thought the Bible was written from a "theocentric" perspective. And besides, didn't you say the KJV 1611 is the "final authority" and not open to interpretation? That would imply to me that it's not up to the reader to "decide" anything.

"The tendency today among conservative Christian writers is to deny that the Bible is primarily addressed to men."

Then why should women even bother reading it? You'd think the patriarchs would have published a little pink-jacketed version of the KJ 1611 to include just those parts that apply to women. But then, I guess most women back then couldn't read anyway.

"One feminist critic in pointing to this feature of the biblical text has said that it means the female reader must read much of the Bible as if she were a man, which is quite true."

I would actually agree with this statement except I would say we should read it as if we are people, just plain, old people.

"If we begin looking for places where women are directly addressed in the Bible, we quickly discover that in such cases the message is even more offensive to the modern egalitarian mindset than anything which has been noted above. The women are addressed only to remind them that they are not equal... "

Let's read that again...

"Women are addressed [in the Bible] only to remind them that they are not equal."

Thank you for reminding us womenfolk to stay in our respective places.

I've read and considered all the articles you referenced, and I respectfully disagree with much, though not all, of what the authors conclude. Now, I'd like to refer you to another source for your consideration. There's much material here. Go back into the archives. I don't expect you to agree, but I hope you'll at least be willing to read it. After all, as Mr. Marlowe stated, "... it [the Bible] often leaves it to the reader to decide what application to women or what inclusion of women is implied." Or does that apply only to male readers?

Lin said...

From the linked article from watchman:

"The interpreter must not proceed mechanically with the idea that every occurance of adam and anthropos is to be understood in a gender-inclusive sense, because the Bible for the most part records the names and actions of men, uses male examples, assumes a male audience, and in general focuses on men and their concerns while leaving women in the background. I will give now a few examples of how these tendencies manifest themselves in the biblical text."

Genesis 3 explains this very well...it is a result of sin. This is like me insisting that since Lamech was a the first polygamist, that makes it ok since God said nothing at the time. His bigamy was a result of sin. Besides, there are quite a few women in the OT you have to ignore for this to be consistent.

"In Genesis 2:24, after Adam declares that Eve is "flesh of my flesh," it is said, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." It has been observed by commentators that among the Israelites for whom this text was written, it was really the woman who left her father and mother. She was brought into the extended family of her husband, and the new household was established on the property of the man's family. Why then do we read that "a man shall leave his father and his mother," instead of "a woman shall leave her father and her mother"? It is because this saying is describing the action from the man's perspective."

YOu are reading into what you want to get out of it. This was NOT written for the Israelistes! This is simply one of God's first commands about marriage. A ONE FLESH Union. How would Adam understand this? He was leaving no father or mother? The Hebrew for leave is pretty strong and means a total commitment. Hold fast to his wife...or cling to his wife is very strong in the Hebrew. Forsaking all others for a one flesh union. The point of the verse is a ONE FLESH UNION.

"In Genesis 3:23-24 we read that God sent Adam out of the garden of Eden, but the text says nothing about Eve being driven out. Obviously we must understand that both were exiled, but the writer sees fit to describe this event in terms of Adam's exile."

This is answered easily in Genesis 3. It is a result of sin. Remember...Adam SINNED...Eve was deceived. Adam was driven out of the Garden and Eve followed. Why? Because a result of her trangression was to 'desire' (or long for) her husband even though childbirth was painful she would still 'long for him'. And with this emotional desire he would have control over her. this is a result of sin and it is much easier to understand when we Westerners look at Islam and other ME cultures and how the men treat the women yet they put up with it and long for any attention from the husband. Praise God for the Cross!

Watchman, Let me ask you a question: When the veil was torn in two on the cross was it only for men? Did Jesus Christ leave earhtly priests just for women?

Lin said...

"Women are addressed [in the Bible] only to remind them that they are not equal."

Oh my. I am sure Mr. Marlowe has an interesting teaching on this passage:

23Now before faith came, we are imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptizedinto Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Galatians 3

(Verse 23 in the KJV says 'children' which can also mean 'kin' 'relations'. The Greek word is 'uihos' and can also refer to animals :o)

Lin said...

"ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia"

Ok, I had to google that one. Here it is...

The consequences of abuse do not apply to general use.


Used by legal specialists and suggests that a right should not be withheld from people because of others who abuse it.

New BBC Open Forum said...

junk,

Rex non potest peccare.

gimommo said...

Watchman,
I hate to get on your bad side but if that article represents how you view women... from a Biblical or otherwise view point ....
and no doubt how many Baptist men view women....
I don't see much difference in that thinking and the way the men in other cultures think.

Why not circumcise women? Beat them when they are raped?? Make us wear those heavy burlap clothes....wouldn't want to temp strong masculine men with our feminine lure....
Seems to me it's the weak men that should be made to wear some kind of chastity underwear or harness....or blinders like horses wear to stay focused.

Glad this whole thing has opened my eyes to how backward and degrading the majority of the Baptists men are towards women.

That article proves nothing Biblically. It is the view point of another Baptist man....
maybe he also dreams of heaven being full of virgin women that he can dominate and own.
Page Patterson thinks all men should own at least one woman.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Ummm... barbecue!

eprov said...

gimommo....
Watchman is engaging in "men's class only" Bible study. Plus the comfort of using an alias on this blog.
My wife and daughter, and yes my mother-in-law, would be difficult to live around if they thot I believed anything like patriarchal authority. It is matriarchal around here!
Matriarchal = matrimony.
Without that we don't have the matrimony harmony!
Believe me, culture or not, I do know how to survive and be healthy.
Let the women rule!

Lynn said...

In the What the Heck is going on department.....

Joel Osteen has been getting a lot of tv time today. First he was on Fox News Sunday this morning. Now the idiot's on 60 Minutes!!!!


OY

New BBC Open Forum said...

eprov,

You are a wise man! :-D

New BBC Open Forum said...

Re Joel Osteen on 60 Minutes...

That reporter is holding his feet to the fire. He says of the message in Osteen's new book, "Not one mention of God, not one mention of Jesus... ?" Uhhh....

Lynn said...

Osteen sure knows how to cry on queue too.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Joel Osteen can bench press 300 pounds! Who knew?

larry said...

Joel Osteen can bench press 300 pounds! Who knew?

I'm not surprised, considering how much he can shovel.

gimommo said...

eprov,
I do NOT WANT to rule.
But it is that degrading thinking from Christians that makes it easier to justify what these minister predators do and what "little men" do to women to feel powerful.
They think like that but don't stand and protect OR keep their own pants on.

I am not a feminist but I believe in respect. I don't think the women in the Bible were allowed to be educated. God gave us a brain for a reason....we aren't just walking wombs.
I am shocked by how some men still think.

Stand by the church door and watch the married godly men break their necks to watch another woman walk by. The wives are holding onto the children....or being submissive.

Even AR preached a sermon about how silly women are and how we all shop and all this other shallow stuff I have never experienced.
If we have to "keep our place" to be scripturally right...then men need to step up and be Biblical men.
BBC used to teach that a man couldn't help a woman change her tire if they saw her stranded on the expressway.
That's REAL manly!
Glad the Presbty. think more of a woman's worth!

Lily said...

It appears that some of the posts about gender issues are more man made than God inspired.

This reminds me of the argument I had with the Administration of the high school where I graduated. I could have graduated in December, a whole semester early, but they discovered that I had not taken a sewing class. So, I had to stay in high school for the second semester of that year and take sewing. My argument then was - why? The boys don't have to take a particular class to graduate. Why do I have to take sewing?

I made one dress to pass the course, then burned it. To this day I cannot thread a needle, or sew on a button. BTW - my ex husband used to sew on my buttons and repair my garments!!!

When I read these gender posts, it brings me back to this inane argument from high school.

However, gender issue do relate to Church Authority and Church Discipline.

Merry Christmas to all.

gimommo said...

Joel Osteen can bench press 300 pounds! Who knew?

Who cares??????

New BBC Open Forum said...

gmom,

Someday you'll appreciate me when you're on Jeopardy and the final Jeopardy question is "What TV preacher can bench press over twice his own body weight?"

And you thought it was John Hagee.

Junkster said...

Lin said...
"ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia"

Ok, I had to google that one. Here it is...

The consequences of abuse do not apply to general use.

Used by legal specialists and suggests that a right should not be withheld from people because of others who abuse it.


Yes, I think you got my point. As you indicated in your post at 3:47, "it is a result of sin". The fact that the Bible records and reflects history and culture in which men were valued more than women ("androcentric" or "patriarchical" perspectives) does not mean that such is God's intent of how men and women should relate in His kingdom.

The Bible records, assumes, and even regulates the owning of slaves; it indicates several instances of polygamy by men considered spiritual leaders; it includes examples of sexist, racist, and mysogonist behavior. Yet the doctrinal teachings and examples of Jesus and the apostles show a very different standard, a perspective (God's) in which "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).

So, as to the Latin phrase I used, my meaning is that just because the Bible reflects the cultural situations of its writers, we can't assume that those situations are intended to teach us God's intent for male / female relationships and roles.

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
junk,

Rex non potest peccare.


Rex quod injustum est facere non potest.

(King Jesus, that is!)

sickofthelies said...

Watchman,

I don't know about Patriarchal authority or the other, BUT when my husband continually kept turning the thermostat up to 70when I want it kept on 60 in the winter, I solved the 25 year old problem by buying a locked box to go over the thermostat and I have the only key.

How's that for Matriarchal authority? hehehe

gimommo said...

Junk,
You are a forward thinking man!
Thank you!

Eprov...always knew you were!!!!

Lily,
Why didn't we get a choice between shop or sewing????
I need to replace rotten wood on my house alot more than sew an ugly dress to pass a class!!!!

watchman said...

No one need wonder at all why the Church is in the state it is in. A simple review of the last 10 posts will illuminate it quite nicely.

Such acid tongued contempt for Holy Spirit inspired Scripture is very revealing.

I would not be proud of the last posts.

Final post of 2007....

I dont correct the Word of GOD...

The Word of GOD corrects me.

Todays NBBCOF lesson is;

Stand for GODS WORD as TRUTH , and needing NO correction...., and watch feminized ,rebellious women come unglued.

Thanks for the feminist barbecue blessing, I am thankful to have seen the spirit just below the surface now, rather than later.

Maranatha

allofgrace said...

Watchman,
I would be interested to know why you think the 1611 KJV of the bible is inspired. Because it sounds as if you think the KJ translators were on the same level as the biblical writers, ie: David, Moses, Paul, etc. I'm no scholar but I would think that if these translators were chosen of God to pen His very words, there would be books of the bible which were penned by them. Am I to understand, according to your estimation, that the word of God existed in erroneous limbo from the completion of the canon until 1611? What about the early church who only had the OT Scriptures and a few circulating letters written by the apostles...were they reading erroneous or substandard editions? I've always wanted to ask these questions of those who believe that the KJV is THE very word of God.

Tim Greer said...

Watchman, just so I'm clear:

When you claim the KJV is the only inspired word of God, which KJV do you mean? The 1611 version; the 1631 edition, the infamous "Wicked Bible," in which the word "not" was omitted from "Thou shalt not commit adultery;" the Oxford 1769 revision (the basis for the ones commonly in use today); or the post 1827 editions which omit the Apocrypha?

here's a 1611 excerpt:

And it came to passe in the time of her trauaile, that beholde, twinnes were in her wombe. And it came to passe when she trauailed, that the one put out his hand, and the midwife tooke and bound vpon his hand a skarlet threed, saying, This came out first. And it came to passe as he drewe back his hand, that behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken foorth? this breach bee vpon thee: Therefore his name was called Pharez. And afterward came out his brother that had the skarlet threed vpon his hand, and his name was called Zarah.

eprov said...

watchman.....
Do you have the ability to empathize with women? Can you imagine yourself in their shoes?
I heard a Bible teacher pray "Lord, help me to read your Word as if I have never read it before."
Some people read and ONLY look for all the reasons to justify bad theology. This is a prime example!
You have chosen a narrow, closed approach to understanding scripture. You are reading men who are not scholars primarily. Men who have picked up on anti-Catholic sentiment and made that sentiment part of their theology.
Men who need the power of 'knowledge' which is more academic than practical or realistic, versus the power of the Holy Spirit.
These mentalities exist in pockets of the Church historically. Always finding some quirk which becomes their cause celebre.
Sorry, I think there is a greater calling.
Your pronouncements are bigoted and selfish. Please note that I am not calling you that. I am more than a little shocked. Your zeal for the Word is negated.

Lin said...

See what I mean...If you disagree with the Pats then you are a feminist and sinner who hates the Word.

Notice, he did not engage in 'content'. He did not even as much discuss the Greek. Even the Corinthians discussed what was taught together! but in the Pat world you either totally drink their legalistic kool-aid or you are a feminist!

That means Lottie Moon was a feminist. So was Mary Magdalene.

We are in good company.

Watchman you have some good buddies in Doug Phillips and James McDonald. These Patriarches do not allow their wives to vote or their daughters to attend college. Women do not need education...only to serve their fathers until they marry. But what kills me about so many Pats is that they make their living selling this stuff. Check out Vision Forum! This guy is raking it in from the home school community.

Some of their wives (Stacy McDonald and Jenney Chancey) took time off from family and home and recently wrote a book called Passionate Housewives where they call Christian women who work as 'white washed feminists'. When asked to define white washed feminist in detail they have refused by saying their husbands do not want them to! +

Is writing a book, publishing and promoting it all over radio and speaking engagements...working outside the home?

The hypocrisy of the Pat movement never ceases to amaze me. It is simply a cult like Islam with a check list of do's and don't. There is NO grace and no love. It only makes me so grateful that our Lord freed us from the bondage of earthly priests.

Why would the Lord take the Wrath on the Cross only to leave women under the authority of another depraved human sinner such as herself? It makes NO sense. Talk about 'limited atonement'!

ezekiel said...

Today, while we are rushing around doing the Christmas thing, lets's not forget the gift of His Mercy and His Grace. Spurgeon says it pretty well here, I think. Merry Christmas everyone!

"For your sakes he became poor." --2 Corinthians 8:9 The Lord Jesus Christ was eternally _rich_, glorious, and exalted; but "though _He was rich_, yet for your sakes He became poor." As the rich saint cannot be true in his communion with his poor brethren unless of his substance he ministers to their necessities, so (the same rule holding with the head as between the members), it is impossible that our Divine Lord could have had fellowship with us unless He had imparted to us of His own abounding wealth, and had become poor to make us rich. Had He remained upon His throne of glory, and had we continued in the ruins of the fall without receiving His salvation, communion would have been impossible on both sides. Our position by the fall, apart from the covenant of grace, made it as impossible for fallen man to communicate with God as it is for Belial to be in concord with Christ. In order, therefore, that communion might be compassed, it was necessary that the rich kinsman should bestow his estate upon his poor relatives, that the righteous Saviour should give to His sinning brethren of His own perfection, and that we, the poor and guilty, should receive of His fulness grace for grace; that thus in giving and receiving, the One might descend from the heights, and the other ascend from the depths, and so be able to embrace each other in true and hearty fellowship. Poverty must be enriched by Him in whom are infinite treasures before it can venture to commune; and guilt must lose itself in imputed and imparted righteousness ere the soul can walk in fellowship with purity. Jesus must clothe His people in His own garments, or He cannot admit them into His palace of glory; and He must wash them in His own blood, or else they will be too defiled for the embrace of His fellowship. O believer, herein is love! For _your sake_ the Lord Jesus "became poor" that He might lift you up into communion with Himself.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Goodness, watchman. Some people certainly get testy when "feminized, rebellious" women don't stay in their proper places, don't they? I've written nothing that I'm ashamed of or have any need to apologize for. The other commenters can speak for themselves. And after a thorough inventory, my glue joints are all still quite intact. Not so sure about yours though, as your knickers seem to be the only ones in a knot over this subject. You know, watchman, if you are married (which I can't possibly imagine given your apparent disdain for women) I pity your poor wife.

"I dont correct the Word of GOD... "

And yov are sayinge that we do? I wovlde liketh to see an example of that. Jvst becavse someone else's interpretation of it doth not aligneth wythe yovrs doth not mean that persone is "correcting" the Word any more than yov.

"No one need wonder at all why the Church is in the state it is in. A simple review of the last 10 posts will illuminate it quite nicely.

"Such acid tongued contempt for Holy Spirit inspired Scripture is very revealing."


Wow. The only contempt I sense is coming from you -- directed at women who aren't willing to be doormats. I've reviewed the last ten posts. Let's examine those posts and see how they illustrate what you seem to be saying is our sorry spiritual state and contempt for Scripture.

1. I noted from the 60 Minutes story last night that Joel Osteen can bench press 300 pounds. I thought, considering the guy looks like he'd weigh about 130 pounds dripping wet, that this is quite remarkable.

2. "Larry" made a joke. "Larry" isn't a woman.

3. "Gmom" stated facts. She said she doesn't want to rule men, but by the same token, I don't think she wants to be ruled by men either. I guess she really struck a nerve. Oh, and that sermon AR preached to which "gmom" refers? They're rerunning that for what seems like about the 5th or 6th time in the past couple of years this coming Sunday morning on LWF. It's called "Celebrate the Difference" and is the only bad sermon I ever heard Dr. Rogers preach. In my opinion they ought to burn the tape of that one.

4. "Lily" had no interest in sewing and couldn't understand why she should be required to take it to graduate high school when the boys weren't. What a radical concept!

5. "Gmom" wasn't impressed with my Joel Osteen trivia.

6. I told "gmom" she'd appreciate me someday. And after his assertion that Christ didn't come to be the Messiah, in my book John Hagee is fair game any day.

7. "Junkster," who is also not a woman, discusses cultural changes and how the Bible deals with the issue of slavery. Surely you don't advocate slavery!

8. "Junkster" states, "The king cannot do what is unjust." He clarifies... THE KING... is Jesus.

9. SOTL explains how she and her husband (whom I know she loves dearly and has the utmost respect for, even if she doesn't cook for him or do his laundry... well, at least not since that unfortunate incident that resulted in him having to wear pink underwear... but I digress) worked out their difference of opinion over where the thermostat should be set in the winter. BTW, this is a good example of real life being the opposite of what AR talks about in the above-mentioned sermon. I suppose it would have been okay if Mr. SOTL had the only key to the box. And I know the SOTLs follow the Biblical guideline for making coffee. It says right there at the top of several pages -- "HE brews."

10. "Gmom" joked with "junk" and "eprov" (both men) and apparently shares "lily's" sentiments regarding required sewing classes for girls.

"Acid-tongued contempt for Scripture"? All I see here is a group of people with opinions about a lot of different things who have grown close enough to express their opinions and joke with each other... including two women whose talents don't happen to include sewing (that's blasphemy if I've ever seen it) and one who likes to keep the thermostat set lower than her husband does (but who, FYI, is very talented at sewing).

It's not the Word you're taking too seriously, watchman. It's yourself.

Lin said...

Notice all through the NT we see how hard it was to deal with the Judaizers in the early church. They never left which is why some professing Christians spend way too much time focused on who is the greatest in the kingdom and who is in authority. Some things never change.

Seems rather strange since Jesus did not take 'earthly' authority over others. He was simply TRUTH.

Ez posted that clip from Spurgeon which pretty much sums it up. Jesus Christ, Who was God in the flesh, made himself a poor humble servant while He was here. And He had the nerve to rebuke the religious legalistic authorities of that time for their man made traditions.

larry said...

Sure a lot of heat and fury...

Why the heat ? Why the anger ? Why the outrage ? HMMM???????????

No one need wonder at all why the Church is in the state it is in. A simple review of the last 10 posts will illuminate it quite nicely.

Such acid tongued contempt for Holy Spirit inspired Scripture is very revealing.


Mr. Watchman,

Since you included my post among those that indicate the reason the church is in decline, I'll share a speculation of my own.

If someone disagrees with you, it's not necessarily in anger and with fury. It's not always an attack. Most people are quite capable of disagreeing without being disagreeable.

Most people.

When you say that the simple act of voicing a differing opinion is acid-tongued, vicious, angry, and an attack, I suspect that you just might be revealing your own heart attitude when you post.

If that really is the spirit in which you disagree with the people on this blog, then you need to work on that.

Merry Christmas

Lynn said...

Not to pile on here, but I'm a guy and even I have to throw the penalty flag out on watchman's apparent views of women.

In my personal opinion, women are equal to men. Not to mention, unless the laws of biology have changed and I'm not aware of it....you do have a mother watchman. Is this how you treat your own mother, watchman? I know if I treated my mom like that, she wouldn't care how old I was, she'd whoop my butt big time.

Jamey said...

The Bible tells us to love or WIVES as Christ loved the church. I believe even the KJV is in on this one. Does Christ make us walk with our heads down and walk behind Him? NO. Does Christ treat us as if we are second class people not worthy of His love? NO. Christ loved us so much He not only died for our sins, but God the Father turn His back on Him while He bore those sins. Those sins are the ones we have committed, we are committing and the ones we will commit. We are now adoptive sons and daughters of God because of Christ. We are adoptive brothers and sisters of Jesus, God's only begotten Son. In Romans we are called HEIRS of Christ.

Also, the 2nd greatest commandment is to love OTHERS as we love ourselves. Again, I believe the KJV is OK with this commandment. For us to not to do this puts us at odds with what the scripture commands, even the KJV.

I believe that wives in "femine" and "heirs" and "others" is gender neutral.

sickofthelies said...

watchman,

My daughter, when she was 10 y/o, took it upon herself to find a screwdriver and replace the toilet seat.

Was she sinning because she was not sewing?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Not in my opinion, but I'm guessing the answer is Mr. SOTL was... for not performing his husbandly duties. The man is supposed to replace the toilet seat and kill the bugs. :-)

That reminds me of Bellevue's "Car Care Ministry." This is how they announced it:

"The next Care Care service day for widows, single moms with dependant (sic) children at home, single ladies 60+ years of age, and wives of servicemen or civil contractors serving overseas will take place on Saturday, May 5. If you are a member of Bellevue and in one of these categories, call 347-5460 to make an appointment or register for this ministry. This presumes there are no adult males available otherwise to oversee the provision of service offered by this ministry. Volunteers should meet on the east side of the church at 8:00 a.m. for prayer before servicing the cars."

I find this insulting to think that all women are incapable of (1) performing minor service on their own cars or (2) driving them to the oil change place or a service center to have them serviced. If someone can't afford it, that's one thing, but there's no mention of financial need, just the implication that women are helpless little wimps that have to have an "adult male" to "oversee the provision of service" on their vehicles.

This just conjures up all sorts of questions. Do they check your ID to make sure you're over 60? How do they know if you have dependent children at home or not? Or that you're a widow? Or the wife of a serviceman, etc.? If, as they seem to be implying, it's about helping out the womenfolk, why does it matter if a woman is 60+ or whether or not she's got "dependant" kids? Why is it assumed that all adult males are capable of "overseeing the provision of service" on a motor vehicle? Notice how they emphasized the word "no" in "no adult males." I've known men who couldn't even pump their own gas! This is absolutely one of the most demeaning things I've ever seen come out of that place. They give the men a whole lot more credit than they deserve and the women a whole lot less. Blech!

I imagine the only way a woman at BBC would ever be allowed to help in the car care ministry would be to schedule appointments or serve cookies and coffee.

I figured out several years ago it's cheaper and certainly simpler in the long run to just take your car to an oil change place to have your oil changed. Many of them have coupons where you can get it done for around $15. By the time you buy the oil, a filter, and pay to dispose of the old oil (or take it somewhere where they'll accept it), you've more than shot $15. And that's not even counting the Band-Aids for the skinned knuckles.

eprov said...

NASS.....
Your sublety causes intellectual jealousy! Even nausea! LOL
'dependant'
A few of us are cursed in this regard.
Biting sarcasm? Academic snobbery? Intellectual condescension?
I think you need to join watchman for some end-of-year penance!

SOTL.....
Your daughter wasn't sinning. You sinned with this very brief post. Be honest. Fess up. You had much deeper thoughts and had to restrain the flesh from writing in more detail.
Looks like we all need to meet for some end-of-year penance.

If we need someone to lead it, all I need do is tell my wife about the patriarch stuff and she will....uh oh, sorry. She knows her position in Christ, but not safe to challenge her right to stand up for women! LOL No penance for her in this regard.

gimommo said...

Even tho I don't agree with Watchman about the worth of women...I really don't want us to gang up on him.

He has a right to his opinion.
I don't understand it at all BUT we don't know the road he has traveled and he hasn't been able to find a church since his church got hijacked. JMHO
Merry Christmas WAtchman :)

New BBC Open Forum said...

eprov,

Huh?

New BBC Open Forum said...

'Twas the night before Christmas and here on the blog,
Hardly a creature was stirring, not even a frog.
Some bloggers have left us while others are still here,
Who'd ever have thought we'd still be blogging this year?

Your host is most grateful for your fine contributions,
Except for a few trolls who have no inhibitions.
Last year I wrote this ode for y'all,
However, this year I'm not so much on the ball.

So with that I am out, I'll see you all later.
You're such good little sheeps. There's no flock greater!
One thing's for certain, while we sheeps have our quirks,
Because of the Love that binds us, it's a formula that works!

Merry Christmas, y'all!

gimommo said...

eprov,
I second the huh.

oc said...

Merry Christmas ya'll.

Just sayin'.
oc.

gimommo said...

Hey OC.....Merry back at cha....just sayin myself.....

gimommo said...

Nass,
Thanks for the story....just read last year's ....very cool

Lily said...

Thank you New BBC Open Forum for allowing us this special forum to gather, converse, dialog, etc.

It takes up a lot more of your time than many realize, so I want to say a special thank you to you and for you to know that some of us do know the sacrifice you make so that we may have this open forum.

I am still reeling from the "women are a lower life form" type of posts, but, here and in my work world, such mindset is the norm and one that I have ignored for many years.

Jesus loves us all, every one.

Lynn said...

I interrupt my hiding under a rock to say Merry Christmas.

Now back to hiding under a rock.

gimommo said...

Lynn,
Get out from under that rock!!
I tried hiding there for years...you have to come out eventually...you'll be OK :)

Lynn said...

Oh...for your listening pleasure....

The Christmas Story...as told by Glenn Beck.

The Christmas Story as told by Glenn Beck

Lynn said...

Oh...if you get funky colors on your screen...its ok. Its just the link to the media player :)

Lynn said...

Blogger gimommo said...

Lynn,
Get out from under that rock!!
I tried hiding there for years...you have to come out eventually...you'll be OK :)

9:49 PM, December 24, 2007

I'll be fine...oh say around March lol.

The time between Thanksgiving and Valentines Day always tend to be the time of year I'm the crankiest lol.

gimommo said...

Lynn,
No LOL's needed...I understand.
Go to Sam's and get a full spectrum light...it helps a little.

I'd like to be a bear and hide until Spring...

BTW...my son was given bowling shoes for Christmas.....he never bowls but just in case...he has shoes!!!!

gimommo said...

did anyone go to Faith's Christmas eve service????
just wondering how it was.

Lynn said...

gimommo said...

Lynn,
No LOL's needed...I understand.
Go to Sam's and get a full spectrum light...it helps a little.

I'd like to be a bear and hide until Spring...

BTW...my son was given bowling shoes for Christmas.....he never bowls but just in case...he has shoes!!!!

10:21 PM, December 24, 2007

Whats a Spectrum Light?

Lynn said...

Oh, I've also got me something to take my mind off things while I'm off work.

Found out my boss is looking at possibly promoting me back into a job I used to do. Not sure if I could do it though. My temper probably wouldn't set well with machinery lol

gimommo said...

Lynn,
It's a lamp that gives off light similiar to sunshine....keeps the blas down.

concernedSBCer said...

A little over a year ago I started reading this blog. A little less than a year ago I started posting. It seems really funny to say, but many on this blog have become VERY close friends. I can say things they don't understand (or want to hear) at church. I've met people I WANT to spend time with....friends that challenge me and sharpen my skills and inspire me to dig deeper.....

Some are still here, some have moved on.....

But I thank you all. You have become my Christian brothers and sisters and I love to fellowship, bowl, debate, tease, and study with you.

Merry Christmas.

concernedSBCer said...

And Nass......thanks for the great shipment of frozen fish from Minnesota!

I hope Dr. Loney will join us for a once-in-a-lifetime Christmas dinner!

Dr. Bill Loney said...

happy x-mas to all of you.

Watchman, I am glad you have been posting. My Jewish uncle, Seth Loneystein, gave me a watch shortly before his untimely death in a tragic (yet not unexpected) badger mauling. I can't get the short hand to move, so I am always thinking that it is 12-something or other. Think you can fix it... oh, I'm sorry...Doest thou thinkest thou canst fixeth it?
Lemeno(lettest me knowest)

William T. Loney, MD

New BBC Open Forum said...

The Cockroft family of Bartlett, TN presents for your Christmas Eve enjoyment...

Wizards in Winter

Carol of the Bells

Hark the Herald Angels Sing

Emmanuel

Jingle Bells

Joy to the World

New BBC Open Forum said...

The Pioneer, Carson Williams of Mason, Ohio.

sickofthelies said...

eprov said:


SOTL.....
Your daughter wasn't sinning. You sinned with this very brief post. Be honest. Fess up. You had much deeper thoughts and had to restrain the flesh from writing in more detail.

eprov,

No, i really was just trying to be funny ...there were no deeper thoughts...if you knew me better, you would know that I am very capable of not having deep thoughts :)

Anyways, it appears that it was not as funny as I thought it was..so I do apologize to those I offended with my remarks.

32yrs@bbc said...

NASS, regarding your Dec. 24 post
critiquing the Car Care Ministry, I believe you are over-reacting. This ministry was begun by the late
Larry Burkett at his home church in Atlanta. The primary motivation was to help single moms and widows. It is a known fact that some car-care places take advantage of those who are not mechanically inclined...male and female. This ministry was to protect women on tight budgets from being overcharged, perhaps being told there was something else wrong with their vehicle when that is not true, not changing the oil filter as charged, etc. It is an excellent ministry and should not be disparaged nor viewed as sexist. IMHO.

eprov said...

SOTL....
I thot your comments were hilarious and my comments were STRICTLY sarcastic and a feeble attempt to emphasize the truth underlying your post.
It was a long Christmas Eve and I had exhausted every effort at finding my wife something appropriate for Christmas. I finally gave up when Macy's closed at 6 pm!
You can imagine all the stress and emotional pressure from the failed shopping and then I post some dumb comments on this blog. My wife didn't get it and you guys didn't either. I was a total failure! LOL
Apologizes to all!

Lin said...

http://www.ccel.org/bible/kjv/preface/pref1.htm

This is the preface of the KJV translators written after the translation was finished.

In these 10 pages, the translators say that using different translations to understand a passage is something we should do.

Interesting, huh?

gimommo said...

eprov,
Why didn't you ASK your wife what she wanted???????
Did you get her nothing????

concernedSBCer said...

Eprov: We've all been there! We love you anyway.

So what did you eventually get your wife?

ezekiel said...

Lin,

Good find! Thanks for sharing!

For those of us with ADD, a couple of quotes.

“Therefore as S. Augustine saith, that variety of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures: [S. Aug. 2. de doctr. Christian. cap. 14.] so diversity of signification and sense in the margin, where the text is no so clear, must needs do good, yea, is necessary, as we are persuaded.”
AND
“Many other things we might give thee warning of (gentle Reader) if we had not exceeded the measure of a Preface already. It remaineth, that we commend thee to God, and to the Spirit of his grace, which is able to build further than we can ask or think. He removeth the scales from our eyes, the vail from our hearts, opening our wits that we may understand his word, enlarging our hearts, yea correcting our affections, that we may love it to the end. Ye are brought unto fountains of living water which ye digged not; do not cast earth into them with the Philis- tines, neither prefer broken pits before them with the wicked Jews. [Gen 26:15. Jer 2:13.]”


Just read Him. He is alive and sharper than a two edged sword....use a translation (or several) that you can understand and that you like reading.

gimommo said...

Christmas 07 is almost all over.

Hope everyone is healing from the shock and eye opening lessons we experienced together this year.

In the middle of a year I would like to forget for many reasons, I too formed bonds with many I may never meet in person and some special people I now call friend.

I am grateful for all I have learned from so many of you...thank you.
We KNOW our blog isn't the evil thing some would like people to believe.

I'd also like to share some neat things that happened in one day right before Christmas.

I had taken a second job due to the medical expenses and issues I've had this year.
Because of a recent surgery, I hadn't been able to work full time on either job yet.
So in one day....I got a Christmas bonus that I did not deserve in my estimation but was very grateful for! I cashed it and felt free to buy some things for my son, a gift for the woman that covered for me on my first job...but refused to be compensated,
and a small gift for a precious single mom who gives tirelessly to so many ...all the time!!!

THEN, I go home to find a note taped to my garage. Seems "Santa" had done some early deliveries and left a big bag full of individually wrapped gifts. I have no idea who did this!

Then I go for a check up at the surgeons. I told them I was getting so many bills in but none from them.
She informed me I had a 0 balance.
With no word to me, my doctor had written off my 20% of his bill.

There were a few other sweet things that happened. Seems like every time I go thru a really ruff time and think God has forgotten me down here...He reminds me that He won't give me more than what I can bare....and that He IS taking care of me.

I pray I will not forget too quickly the wisdom I have gained this year.
I pray we have all learned to focus, trust and obey in the Christ only ...more than any thing else!!
God Bless you and keep you all!!!!

eprov said...

gim...csbcer.....
I got her NOTHING! LOL
Honestly we are blest beyond measure.
I got her a nice card. She got me clothes hangers. Wonder why?
After raising 5 kids we have more money than we ever thot we would have. If your kids are grown and out of college, you get that! If you are in the process, you cannot imagine.
Please don't interpret the money reference out of context. We aren't in the same league as the wannabe blue bloods now ruling BBC.

New BBC Open Forum said...

eprov wrote:

"We aren't in the same league as the wannabe blue bloods now ruling BBC."

Well! Humpf!

amazed said...

My-My-My how the fangs came out in the discussion about the different translations of the bible. Civility should always be a part of any debate or discussion. If I disagree with a comment, I say so and then move on. It is not worth the effort to get up set.

gimommo said...

Amazed,
There were no fangs coming from me. I sanded mine down a while ago :)
I don't have a problem with not agreeing with someone.
I don't know who was upset....other than maybe watchman.... we were voicing our opinions and did move on.

You seem to post odd comments on a regular basis. I am never sure where you are really coming from...also just fine.

Watchman has very strong opinions and that particular one (the lowliness of women)
was not one many of us could agree with.
He didn't have to stop posting. He chose to ...I think because he disagreed so strongly.

sickofthelies said...

eprov,

Just now getting around to checking the blog...

NO problemo!! :)

Happy New Year

New BBC Open Forum said...

EFI NEWS

2007 Christmas Persecution of Christians in Orissa Evokes Fear of Repeat of 25th December 1998 Gujarat riots


The Christmas eve violence against Christians of Brahmanigaon village, 150 kms from the district headquarters of Phulbani, over the celebration of Christmas has erupted into large scale violence against Christians. While the local Christian community wanted to celebrate the event in a grand way, the local Hindus opposed the plan, district police Chief Narasimha Bhol told IANS. This led to a clash between local Hindu and Christian groups in which at least four people were injured.

It may be noted here that the Christian community had urged upon the district administration, a couple of days ago, to provide adequate security to places of worship and ensure safe travel of people during the festival time.

The other incident which fuelled the tension was the alleged attack on Swami Saraswati near Daringbadi while he was travelling from Tumudibandh to Bamunigam.

Today the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) called for a four-hour bandh, while the violence against Christian community went on unabated. Led by VHP workers, the mob attacked three churches in Kudapaki, Gofukia and Sirtiguda towns under Nuagam Block and set the church vehicle on fire. In order to obstruct the police from reaching the place, the mob cut the trees and spread the logs at various places on the roads leading to the above mentioned townships.

The World Vision of India office in Daringbadi was attacked and property destroyed. Attacks against other Christian institutions are also reported.

Orissa violence has evoked the fears of 25th December 1998 attacks against Christians and Church institutions in Gujarat.

The Church leaders have appealed for peace and have urged the government and law enforcement agencies to restore peace and harmony and protect the life and property of Christians.

We call upon all to pray and intervene for peace in the society.

Please write or fax to the below mentioned addresses to express your concern:

HON'BLE PRESIDENT OF INDIA
SMT. PRATIBHA DEVISINGH PATIL
President of India
Rashtrapati Bhavan,
New Delhi - 110 004
Fax : +91-011-23017290/ 011-23017824

Dr. Manmohan Singh
Prime Minister of India
Room No 152, South Block,
New Delhi - 110 001
Ph: +91-011-23012312/ 011-23013149/ 011-23019545
Fax: +91-011-23018939

Shri Navin Patnaik
Chief Minister of Orissa
Naveen Nivas, Aerodrome Road,
P.O. Bhubaneswar
Distt. Khurda, Pin - 751 001 (Orissa)
E-mail cmo@ori.nic.in
Office Phone 0674-2531100/2535100/2531500
Office Fax: 0674-2400100

Rev. Dr. Richard Howell
General Secretary
Evangelical Fellowship of India
New Delhi, India

Evangelical Fellowship of India (established 1951) is a charter member of World Evangelical Alliance, an accredited NGO with the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations

New BBC Open Forum said...

EFI NEWS

Persecution of Christians in Orissa Continues


• In Bramunigam area of Kandhamala District tension started on 24th Dec 2007 , with erection of an arch made by the local Christian in the eve of Christmas at Bramunigaon village of Kandhamala District. Both side resorted to brick batting and ultimately bullets were fired from country gun from other side as reported by our contact person from the locality.

• On 25th Dec 2007 attacks were made on the Catholic Convent at Bramunigam and is destroyed by bombs.

• World vision office at Daringbadi is completely destroyed by fire.

• Ladapanga Church in Daringbadi and Irpiguda Church in Balliguda pastorate union (CNI) are burnt.

• Balliguda town CNI Church is damaged by the fundamentalist group.

• On 25th Dec 2007 morning some people started objecting church service at a NMS church at Puri. They threw Chappal’s, shoes etc inside the church. However due intervention of local gentlemen the situation was controlled.

• On 25th Dec 2007 evening a petrol bomb was kept inside the premises of the Oriya Baptist Church ( CNI) Berhampur. However the police immediately came to the site and removed the material. The situation now at Berhampur is normal.

• Bishop Samson Das of Cuttack Diocese have contacted the DG Police and other state administration to give protection to the churches and the Christian community. He has also appealed through local TV to the people to maintain harmony.

• Curfew has been imposed at Daringbadi, Dasingbadi, Bramunigaon, Balliguda and G. Udaygiri. Last night many people spent the night in the jungle in Balliguda area and Catholic sisters of Daringbadi took shelter with the families at Greenbadi CNI Church.

• Now the fundamentalist have targeted G.Udayagiri area of Kandhamala District. Last night they held the meeting at Kalinga 7 KM from G.Udayagiri and threatened the near by churches and also threatened to demolish the Diocesan office.

• The Bishop of Phulbani Diocese have informed this matter to District Collector and S. P over the phone but they have not yet provided any kind of security .It is reported that every thing is going on in front of the police. Thousands of Christians are watching over Churches in G.Udayagiri area since last night. 26th Dec 2007 is going to be very crucial day as anticipated by the local Christians.

• The Bishop of Phulbani Diocese is not staying in Bishop’s house since 24th evening as he is getting regular threats. Please prayer for the Christians in Orissa in particular for the District of Phulbani, Kandhamal, Ganjam and Puri.

Please write or fax to the addresses in the previous comment to express your concern.

Lin said...

Nass, those are sobering comments you posted. Wonder how many 'earthly authorities' in the Western church would like that title in India right now?

New BBC Open Forum said...

EFI NEWS

Churches Continue to Burn in Orissa


Churches continue to burn in Orissa inspite of curfew being imposed in different places, we receive many phone calls about the violence which is given below:

• Situation in Barkhama village of Baliguda block is alarming. The fundamentalist group ransacked the village, broke two churches and looted the properties of the poor villagers and torched the houses of the new believers. The force was so tremendous that all the villages including women and children had to flee from the village to save their lives and now hiding themselves in the forest. Latest information received from the Bishop of Phulbani reveals that three dead bodies of Christians are lying un-attended. This has not been carried in any of the newspapers so far.

• Many Christian NGOs, Institutions including the homes and hostels have been attacked and looted. Mostly these institutions are Catholic run institutions. Due to blockage of road by the activists, neither the media person, nor the Church leaders are able to reach at the spot. There could be much more information from rural churches, which has not reached us so far, due to communication obstructions.

• So far 23 churches have been damaged as per the report received till 12 Noon. The damage caused on 26 th December' 07 are to the following 9 churches:

A) Barkhuma Area of Baliguda Block – 2 Churches
B) Rutungia Area of Baliguda Block - 4 Churches
C) Dolgaon Area of Baliguda Block – 1 Church
D) Irpiguda Area of Baliguda Block – 1 Church
E) Kalinga Area of Udayagiri Block – 1 Church

The Arch Bishop of Catholic Dioceses of Orissa, Bishop of Diocese of Cuttack, and all other Church leaders have been trying frantically to take an appointment from the Chief Minister to discuss about the situation. However the CM's office have deliberately failed so far to fix up a date and time with the CM for a discussion of Orissa Church leaders.

However the situation in Udaygiri is coming towards normalcy.

All Church leaders of Orissa, had a meeting in the office of the Arch Bishop of Catholic Dioceses of Orissa at Bhubaneswar , today at 10:00 a.m. It has been decided that steps be taken to meet the C.M to ventilate the grievances. A fresh memorandum has been drafted with the following demands:

A) Initiation of a C.B.I enquiry into the incident.
B) Central Police Forces must be deployed immediately as the local police has failed to prevent the communal riot inspite of getting early information.
C) Proper assessments be made for the loss of property and lives of the victims of the Christian community in the affected area and proper compensation be paid to them as early as possible.
D) Exemplary action to be taken against the Government officials, for their lapses, negligence and in action to prevent and control such situation.
E) A fact finding committee consisting of Church leaders will visit the violence sites in order to bring peace in the locality and also to take a stack of the situation.

We request all of you to uphold the situation in your prayer and especially for the women and children, who are taking shelter in Jungles without food.

In Delhi a Peace Dharna is organised from 4 to 6 p.m at Orissa Bhavan.

Please pray for Orissa and intervene to bring normalcy.

Please write or fax to the above-mentioned addresses in the 8:05 p.m. comment to express your concern.

New BBC Open Forum said...

EFI NEWS

Church leaders urge Prime Minister to ensure safety of Christians in Orissa; Shri V P Singh, other national leaders stand in support at Prayer for Peace Meeting in New Delhi

Over 40 churches, Institutions destroyed in Christmas violence as extremists go on the rampage, fire on people in four days of continuing violence


Former Prime Minister Vishwanath Pratap Singh and many other senior national leaders, Human Rights and Civil Society activists and religious leaders joined the Christian community in a peaceful Prayer for Peace Dharna at Orissa Niwas, Chanakyapuri in New Delhi. The meeting ended with a Candle Light vigil. The slogans at the meeting were “Christ is the Prince of Peace – Don’t Kill Christians” and “We pray for Orissa, We pray for India”. Earlier, a memorandum had been submitted to the Prime Minister and the Union Home Minister seeking urgent Central Government intervention to end the four days of continuing violence in Orissa. The following is the text of the memorandum submitted by Delhi Archbishop Most Rev Vincent Concessao on behalf of the United Christian Forum, Bishop Karam Masih, CNI, Rev. Dr. Richard Howell, EFI, Rev. Thomas Aquinas; Dr. John Dayal, [Member, National Integration Council, Government of India], the All India Catholic Union and the All India Christian Council.

Christmas 2007, 25-26-27

Dr Manmohan Singh
Prime Minister of India
New Delhi

Re: Appeal for immediate action to prevent armed attack on Christians in the Tribal Phulbani region of Orissa, and desecration of Churches in the state. The violence has continued for four days, beginning from 24th December to 27th December, despite claims of peace by the State government. There must be no repeat of Gujarat’s Dangs area violence on Christmas 1998.

Dear Prime Minister,

We bring to you and your government Greetings of Christmas from 2.5 crore Christian community in India.

It is, however, with a heavy heart that we also bring to you our apprehension and fear that the current atrocities against Christians in the tribal area of Phulbani in the State of Orissa is fast exploding into the type of violence we saw in the Dangs district of Gujarat during Christmas 1998. The official apathy, the police indifference and the freedom allowed to marauding bands of fanatics and armed thugs in Gujarat has been repeated in Orissa in what is a planned conspiracy against the Church and our faith.

Spokesman of communal groups are coming on television and in the Print media to announce they will not tolerate the presence of Christians in the trial areas of Orissa. The threat of continuing and escalating violence, the targeting of Church leaders and the concerted attack on institution prove that the conspiracy has been planned over a period of time, with meticulous mobilisation. This would not have been possible without the complicity of the official machinery, and the backing of powerful political groups.

Unless immediate and urgent action is taken, we fear that the situation in Orissa will deteriorate and will lead to much suffering for our people, as also for the common men, women and children of the tribal areas, the poorest of the poor.

The main aggression is from the Kui Janakalyan Samiti. This organization had declared bandh on 25th and 26th December 2007 in order to press for their demands. But Christians feel that it was only ploy used against Christians in order to:

a) Disturb their Christmas celebration, the important feast of Christians; it is even a National holiday.

b) Instead of conducting bandh they have unleashed a reign of terror, destroying institutions, intimidating Christians and forcing them to go out of their homes.

c) Their entire attention is on driving away Christians from the region.

We narrate for you, in brief, the course of events and the volume of violence:

PARISH CHURCH

Balliguda
Pobingia
Baminigam

CONVENTS

Balliguda
Pobingia
Phulbani
Bamunigam

HOSTELS

Pobingia 2
Balliguda 2
Bamunigam 2

VILLAGE CHURCHES

Bodagan-Balliguda
Balliguda town
Kamapada - Balliuda
Mandipanka - Godapur
Jhinjirguda - Bamunigam
Ulipadaro - Bamunigam
Goborkutty - Kattingia
Kulpakia - Nuagam
3 more village church

PRESBYTERY

Balliguda
Pobingia
Bamunigam

Minor Seminary (Balliguda)
Vocational Training Centre (Balliguda)

In addition, offices such as those of World Vision have also been destroyed.

The course of violence so far is:

24/12/07: Trouble began at Bamunigaon village when a Christmas pandal was attacked with guns, injuring three persons. On 25th December, church building at Bamunigaon has been attacked and damaged. The Catholic Church at Baliguda a sub-divisional headquarters town, was suddenly attacked by mob and vandalised, ransacked and damaged very badly. The Computer Institute was attacked and completely destroyed. Ambulance Van set on fire.

25/12/07: CNI Church attacked and damaged at Baliguda...

World Vision ADP Office at Daringbadi was attacked and vandalised. Two Jeep and motor bikes set on fire.

Police Station at Tikabali a Block headquarters was surrounded by the mob and two police jeeps set on fire.

Two churches in Chakapadu area were attacked while church service was going on and people chased out and beaten up. Meals prepared for Christmas feast was trampled.

No church service was allowed to conduct in Phulbani the District headquarters of Kondhmal district, despite the presence of District Collector and Superintendent of Police. The district administration said they could go ahead to conduct church service at their own risk.

Chandballi Baptist Church in Balasore district was attacked while Christmas Service was going on and people were chased out and beaten up.

Towards evening heavy fighting between Christians and Hindu fundamentalist group erupted in Barakhama area, near Baliguda town.

Our efforts to get the government of Orissa to expeditiously contain the violence, arrest the culprits and restore the confidence of the poor tribal and Dalit Christian community in the have met with a phlegmatic bureaucratic response.

While the Christian leadership has been appealing for peace and harmony, aggressive religious fundamentalist elements or local ashrams and political organisations have a run of field, and are openly threatening the Church.

We appeal to the Central government to impress on the Government of Orissa to ensure that there is ample police protection given to the Christian community, its personnel, and insitutions in the state.

God Bless you
And God Bless India

Released to the Media by Dr. John Dayal

Rev. Dr. Richard Howell
General Secretary
Evangelical Fellowship of India
New Delhi, India

Evangelical Fellowship of India (established 1951) is a charter member of World Evangelical Alliance, an accredited NGO with the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations

New BBC Open Forum said...

Exhibitor/Vendors' Areas?

Hunting Demonstrations?

Is this supposed to be a church or a convention center?

Mark 11:15-17

amazed said...

gimommo - I am really amazed that you think my calling for civility is an odd comment. What sounds odd to me is comments from one of your posts: minister predators,little men,walking wombs and men that don't keep their pants on. Then to top it off, "I am not a feminist." Sure could have fooled me.

New BBC Open Forum said...

From Merriam Webster's Dictionary:

Main Entry: fem·i·nism
Pronunciation: \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1895
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
— fem·i·nist \-nist\ noun or adjective
— fem·i·nis·tic \ˌfe-mə-ˈnis-tik\ adjective

Wow, definition #1 is certainly a radical concept, isn't it? Note it doesn't say anything about one sex being "superior to" or "in authority over" the other. Believe it or not, "feminist" isn't a four-letter word, any more than "Democrat" is. It's the extremes to which both the left and right wing fringes have taken those concepts that have corrupted them.

If it were not for those "radical feminists" of the late 19th and early 20th centuries (see definition #2 above), women would still not have the right to vote in this country today. No doubt the "pats" of their day spoke of those men and women (a "feminist" isn't by definition a female) in the same unflattering terms Paige Patterson and others of his mindset use to describe feminists today -- all feminists, not just the radical ones.

Feminist, according to the Merriam Webster's definition, is one label I'm not ashamed to wear. "Gmom" can speak for herself, but I don't get the impression she is either.

sickofthelies said...

Amazed,

It appears to me in Gmommy's post that she is calling minister preditors " little men"...

And that is EXACTLY what they are...

REAL MEN aren't predators..

If that statement makes gmommy a
"feminist" because she DARES to call a minister preditor a little man, then SIGN ME UP!!!

SHEESH!!!!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

What's wrong with criticizing the following?

1. Minister predators.
2. Little men.
3. Men who think of women as walking wombs.
4. Men who won't keep their pants on.

That's certainly not saying all men are like that because they aren't. But wouldn't the world be a lot better place for everyone if we didn't have any of those... things?

amazed said...

nbbcof--No doubtabout it. Just always keep one thing in mind, "it takes TWO to tango."

New BBC Open Forum said...

amazed,

Huh?

sickofthelies said...

amazed,

OH MY GOODNESS!!!

I about fell out of my chair!!!

Are you suggesting that when children/women are raped/molested by men, that it " took two to TANGO"????

Are you placing blame on the chldren and women?

I can't believe what I just read..

Oh, and just for your information....

In nearly every case that I have been involved in, the perpetrator ALWAYS says, " they enticed me...they wanted me"

So, is THIS your mindset? If so, I think you need to be banned from this blog..

amazed said...

nbbcof-The two to tango refers to the men that can't keep their pants on.

David Brown said...

Amazed: PLEASE, PLEASE tell me you are not serious? PLEASE?

Two to tango? I will wait your reply before I say anything else. But if you are serious you are very close to being in the company of one very sick person that tries to post elsewhere before they are deleted.

David Brown

STOPTHEMADNESS said...

DAVID MY FRIEND, You and I know that rape is about power and not desire, please let it go. You will be okay in a few minutes. In my own rape and in the rapes/abuse of the vicitms I have been assigned to work with, later in life----NEVER about lust or desire....ALWAYS ABOUT POWER/CONTROL/RAGE. Don't worry about what he says ok sweetie!!

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
What's wrong with criticizing the following?

1. Minister predators.
2. Little men.
3. Men who think of women as walking wombs.
4. Men who won't keep their pants on.

That's certainly not saying all men are like that because they aren't. But wouldn't the world be a lot better place for everyone if we didn't have any of those... things?

12:31 PM, December 27, 2007


amazed said...
nbbcof--No doubtabout it. Just always keep one thing in mind, "it takes TWO to tango."

12:48 PM, December 27, 2007


New BBC Open Forum said...
amazed,

Huh?

12:57 PM, December 27, 2007


amazed said...
nbbcof-The two to tango refers to the men that can't keep their pants on.

1:13 PM, December 27, 2007


Amazed,
I will trust that the last of the 4 items listed was all you were referring, since you said so. But for you to make that "Two to tango" remark in response to the whole list without first clarifying that you were only responding to the last point is, without a doubt, one of the worst attempts at communication I have ever seen.



-----
Totally unrelated P.S.: word verification "nuukj" -- is that a reference to that "blasphemous" New King James version??

oc said...

SOTL said:


If that statement makes gmommy a
"feminist" because she DARES to call a minister preditor a little man, then SIGN ME UP!!!

SHEESH!!!!!

oc says:
Gee, me too.

just sayin'.

amazed said...

Hey Folks--Call off the firing squad. I never made any reference to people that are child molesters. Of course that is a sick, sick situation any time and any place it happens. I was merely making a followup comment to the poster that used the term "men that can't keep their pants on." I was talking about it takes two (a man and a woman) to get to that point. Please don't read to much into comments that stike the wrong chord.

concernedSBCer said...

Amazed: no firing squad....just folks that are personally involved and have been hurt. Even on this blog, there have been those who posted to purposely hurt. I'm sure that's not you......just clarification for others that read the blog. :)

In some cases, you are right.....it does take two. But when people in authority (like priests, pastors, teachers, employers and parents) act inappropriately, it is really hard sometimes to fight them. We are taught to respect and, especially for children, disrespect and disobedience comes hard. I know you know this......but sometimes things bear repeating.

The discussion of feminism was very interesting in that it is all about connotation, isn't it? As the definition showed, it is not a bad thing. However, currently, it does have a negative connotation, just like tolerance does. Both fine words with good means. But they have been taken so far away from their original meanings that now they are bad words when they shouldn't be.

concernedSBCer said...

Has anyone read the article on FBCJax blog about Darrell Gilyard? Paige Patterson comes off as sneaky and skummy as they come.....and I think he probably is.

SBC Leadership needs an overhaul....IMHO.

gimommo said...

CSBCer,
I'm kinda freaked out by your last post :)

Lynn said...

I agree. To me, and maybe I'm stretching this, but the SBC has become about as effective and functional as a lead shoe on a place kicker on a football team.


Actually, if you changed the SBC's name to Congress you'd have the same level of effectiveness lol.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

Earlier in the fall, my 2nd vestigial tail sort of turned an odd color, then soon after fell off. However my #1 tail remains healthy and ever perky. Well, I was out this evening trolling the local convenient stores to see if they had any old frankfurters on the carousels that they may want to get rid of...I was approached by an attractive 30-something year old lady who asked if she could touch my tail...by this time I was nervous and my tail was wagging feverishly...I politely told her no...she persisted and I once again told her NO...I went about my business and then all of the sudden I could feel her ice cold hand grabbing my tail...I broke free of her icy grip and fled the store. (with no free frankfurters I might add)

When will people realize, that NO MEANS NO!

Looks like I'll be pulling a double shift at my Vestigial Tail Support Group this week.

William T. Loney, MD

New BBC Open Forum said...

Oh, Dr. Loney! That was you? I had no idea! I'm so sorry! Can you ever forgive me? {hanging head in shame}

If it's any consolation, I've got two packages of frankfurters I bought on sale after Christmas, 1989. They've been in the freezer most of that time... except during the 10-day move in the U-Haul from Arizona a few years ago. You're welcome to come over and get them, or I'll hang them on my car antenna and bring them to our next clandestine bowling party. Your call!

oc said...

Concernedsbcer said:
SBC Leadership needs an overhaul....IMHO.


oc says:
If we had real leadership, it wouldn't be needing an overhaul.
It would have been correcting itself on every misstep along the path. But it hasn't been doing that, instead it works hard to cover-up the fact that there is no real leadership. An "overhaul"
assumes that there is something to salvage. Is there?

Just askin'.

gmommy said...

ROTFL......
good to hear from you again...Dr Looney!!!!

Nass,
PLEASE!!!!Hands in your pockets! :)

amazed said...

concernedsbcer--Thanks for the kind words of support. Your post is a good example of the civility issue. We can always have different views on a given subject without getting all bent out of shape. Hope things are going well at Covenant.

Junkster said...

amazed said...
concernedsbcer--Thanks for the kind words of support. Your post is a good example of the civility issue.


And also an example of good and carefully worded communication.

:)

sickofthelies said...

amazed,

I don't just have a different
"view"...I have lived what I post about.

The outrage shown on here was becuase of your poor attempt to communicate what you meant by it takes " two to tango"...if you will go back and read it, you will see why the outrage was called for.

There are many people who read this blog, many HURT people..and we HAD to make sure that those people knew that it wasn't THEIR fault, as your post seemed to indicate.

I exchanged private emails yesterday afternoon concerning your " it takes two to tango" comment. Many of the emails came from people who have NEVER posted.. Your words were insensitive, even if you didn't mean what you wrote. Many people were upset by what you wrote, suggesting it was their fault.

You owe them all an apology.

concernedSBCer said...

Did you guys have a bowling party and forget to invite me???

Helllloooooo??????

sickofthelies said...

Concerned,

No, the bowling alleys were too crowded tonight. :)

amazed said...

All--How many times do I have to state that I was not referring to child molesters or rape. Come on people, any reasonable thinking person would take that comment as referring to two consenting adults. Just because there have been some hurt in this area doesn't mean that every comment has a sinister meaning.

Junkster said...

amazed said...
All--How many times do I have to state that I was not referring to child molesters or rape. Come on people, any reasonable thinking person would take that comment as referring to two consenting adults. Just because there have been some hurt in this area doesn't mean that every comment has a sinister meaning.


Here's what this sounds like to me:

"I am not going to apologize for my poor communication and any hurt feelings that resulted because you people were too stupid to understand that what I said wasn't what I meant. I know some folks have had horrible things done to them, but that's not my fault, so I have no obligation to be sensitive or compassionate to the pain and suspicions that their experiences have caused."

gmommy said...

One thing I'd like to add is that a sexual predator such as the minister in the news currently or PW
KNOW exactly WHO to prey on. They sense who is vulnerable, wounded, or needy.
They know how to knock down boundaries and throw the other person off balance. They know where the "scary buttons" are.

There are not 2 doing the tango in those situations. It is still a predator preying....no matter the age of the prey. JME

ezekiel said...

Junkster,

I read it like you did....

eprov said...

junkster.....
Yes.
Context controls the interpretation.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Relevant comment from this page...

THE CONTEMPORARY JESUS

Is there any thing whereof it may be said, "See, this is new?" It hath been already of old time, which was before us.

"The same old 'Jesus' that led Columbus to the gold mines five hundred years ago in the guise of converting the unsuspecting masses to Christianity, now presents himself to modern America in the name of evangelical and fundamentalist Christian unity. This same old wolf now clothed in a freshly cleaned and pressed garment of lambskin is much kinder and gentler than before. Instead of the rack and the burning stake, this new and improved Jesus uses the weapons of peace and love in converting the deluded people to the God of gold, power and fun.

"Just as was true in the Babylon of ancient times, God's people find themselves intertwined, perhaps not willingly with a popular religious system which does not represent the reproach of the cross of Christ but rather the reproach of being associated with a false Christ. I will not attempt here to sort out the precious from the vile in this confusion, but certainly even here in Babylon the precious ones honor and obey the true and living God. Here is where the confusion lies. Not in that this is all a huge phony mess, but because the children of God are intermingled in such a way with the huge phony mess that it is practically impossible to discern who is who. One thing however is certain. This new kingdom of heaven on earth is not the kingdom that Jesus Christ spoke of nor is it's unity the oneness for which Jesus prayed.

"If there was a major power failure in America, ninety percent of Christian activity would cease. I found myself in a Christian rock concert once, thinking I was taking the youth to a place of Christian fellowship. Smoke was rising from the stage, the strobe lights were flashing, and the performers were screaming and gyrating as if they were possessed. Of course most of the kids loved it. This was what they had been looking for -- an electric Jesus. It seemed to me that if this was really Jesus, then I could make him vanish into thin air just by pulling the plug. Does Jesus really need the power company and the airwaves, computer links, and satellites to preach his gospel? The popular Christian television network, TBN had a little message that occasionally flashed across the screen: 'TBN, the light of the world.' Is The Trinity Broadcasting Network the light of the world?

"I was present when several hundred thousand 'Promise Keepers' gathered at the Washington DC mall on October 4th 1997. Why did they come to Washington -- so the news media would see them? Why were a million Christians asked to fall on their faces before God to repent of child abuse? Is that what Christian men do, abuse their children? As I looked around and mingled with the throng I must say that I doubt very seriously if the majority of those men abused their children. So why the big show? If there were men there that were guilty of the sins that were paraded before the world for several hours in Washington, couldn't they repent at home? Who are Christians impressing with these huge demonstrations, who are they really for? God? Jesus rebuked the Pharisees because 'all their works they do for to be seen of men.' Do these words apply to Americans, or just to the Pharisees?

"Did Jesus ever take up an offering so that he could win more souls? Is that how souls are won -- with money? Is the new testament church ever seen marching to the seat of government? Are they ever seen protesting social injustice? Did Paul or any of the Apostles ever gather the church together to attend a Christian concert, or the performance of a Christian comedian? Who were the famous Christian athletes then? Were Christians referred to the services of psychologists? What were the top ten songs on the Christian hit parade? Who were the famous Christian superstars then?"

sickofthelies said...

JUnkster,

thank you.

sickofthelies said...

Amazed,

You just dug yourself in deeper.

allofgrace said...

What's wrong with criticizing the following?

1. Minister predators.
2. Little men.
3. Men who think of women as walking wombs.
4. Men who won't keep their pants on.

That's certainly not saying all men are like that because they aren't. But wouldn't the world be a lot better place for everyone if we didn't have any of those... things?


Nothing...but just to keep things balanced:

Link

Link

Link

Link

Just sayin'

New BBC Open Forum said...

Those examples are the minority of cases, but the women in those and similar cases are equally as bad as men who exhibit the same behavior. They shouldn't be getting passes from the legal system just because they're women. Sadly, it seems these kinds of cases involving adult female perpetrators and minor male victims are becoming more commonplace.

concernedSBCer said...

AOG: Aside from being completely appalled, these articles just continue to prove that the level of morality is sinking and the lines between right and wrong have blurred even more.

Whether male or female, NEVER is it appropriate to even think of a child as a sexual object.

gmommy said...

Aog, Nass, and CSBCer,
I'm with you and ...thank you for the balance AOG.... BUT none of those people are ministers...
they ARE in authority positions and they make me ill.....but they aren't ministers.

I still believe that ministers IN ORDER TO BE A MINISTER must be above reproach...held to a higher standard ....to have the position of leading a congregation.

AND the law DOES deal with these women predators.
The ministers get away with their pervertedness and for covering for the perverts for years or forever.

concernedSBCer said...

GMommy: Good point. You ae right.....back to a main point....the cover-up within the church is horrific.

Back to accountability and leadership within the church, and denomination....

(I know, I know....every church is autonomous....which leads me back to a oft-repeated question....why is the SBC valid???)

allofgrace said...

gmommy,
Abuse of position/power is no less reprehensible when it's a school teacher (or a female for that matter) than when a minister does it. I was appealing to NASS' list of "things"..not all of which referred to ministers, but all referring to men exclusively. Just trying to point out the fact that debauchery, abuse, and demeaning gender/sexual typecasting is not the exclusive domain of men. One only need watch a few modern sit-coms to see how the role of husband and father...indeed as a man, has been demeaned. Most of the men are portrayed as bumbling idiots unworthy of respect and not to be taken seriously. How about the women who only see men as walking "sperm donors"?...or a walking "paycheck"...would everyone be better off without these "things"? As to the links I posted being the "minority" of cases...actually I just stopped at those four...there were pages and pages in that google search...not every case makes it to the media. Way back in the day when I was in high school, there were 3 such instances which took place in my school from my freshman to senior years...2 involving female teachers and 1 involving a male teacher/coach. One of the female teachers was my homeroom teacher, which we all suspected was a bit too "friendly" with the male students, but it was 5 yrs after the fact that any of us knew for sure, when we found out through the principal that she had been quietly "let go" for her escapades. The other woman was a substitute teacher, who I found out my senior year had had an affair with a classmate of mine...that one never made the headlines either....the male teacher was accused by a female student who had babysat for the teacher and his wife of molesting her...it was never proven, but his career was ruined for life by the accusation, and made the local newspaper. While as a man I appreciate the disclaimer that not all men are like that, it would be nice to see a little more balance when making a list of things the world could do without.

eprov said...

aog....
And to think I knew you back when! Your command of language and ability to communicate effectively is intimidating!

New BBC Open Forum said...

AOG,

It was never meant to be a comprehensive list. I was merely repeating "gmom's" list after "amazed" contended pointing out those examples somehow made "gmom" a... {gasp!}... feminist. Being a feminist doesn't mean being a man-basher.

I don't watch sitcoms any more because they're so stupid now, but you make a good point. Husbands and fathers are often depicted as idiots (think Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor), as are white men if they're in a group of blacks. Case in point: the "Mo Money Taxes" commercial that runs on Memphis TV stations now. All the blacks are hip and cool; the one white guy is a total fool.

concernedSBCer said...

Nass and AOG: You ae so right....even in commercials men are portrayed negatively.

Our society has become so skewed.

Lynn said...

concernedSBCer said...

Nass and AOG: You ae so right....even in commercials men are portrayed negatively.

Our society has become so skewed.

1:47 PM, December 30, 2007

The media I think has brainwashed people into thinking that things should be a certain way or look a certain way. Lets face it, the media makes people think a person is only attractive if they are big, muscular men or slim, buxom women. If your not in either group, your viewed as ugly. A person could be the nicest, most intelligent person in the world, but would not be viewed as attractive if they don't have the physical look. Drives me nuts.

New BBC Open Forum said...

It's interesting how the pastor saves these kinds of comments for his Sunday night sermons. These gems are from tonight's sermon:

"Do you practice storehouse tithing? Do you give 10% of your money to the budget of your church... in an undesignated fashion? I don't know how else to say this. It's as plain as I know how to say it. That's storehouse tithing. Are you doing that, or are you stealing from God? There's only two options. Either you're doing that, or you're stealing from God. It's hard to be intimate with somebody you're stealing from. It's impossible to be intimate with God when you're stealing from Him. Are you practicing storehouse tithing?"

....

"Do you support and pray for the pastor and the staff of Bellevue or whatever church you're a part of. Do you support it? Do you pray for those people? Do you support them? Do you serve the Lord under their leadership? And the lay leadership... do you pray for them? Our committee members, our deacons, our teachers... do you pray for these godly folks?

"I don't know how else to say this except to say it. Are you a peacemaker at your church, or are you a troublemaker? You're one of the two. Are you a peacemaker; are you a troublemaker? And you
are one of the two. Which one are you? Ask God to help you be a peacemaker, not a peacekeeper, but a peacemaker... proactively, being diligent to preserve the unity of the spirit of the bond of Christ."

New BBC Open Forum said...

Contrast that with these entries from the latest weekly prayer missive from Ms. Higgy:

"We desire to be pure and obedient so our love for one another will be sincere and from the heart. Give us a spirit of unity so we glorify You with one heart and voice. Help us accept one another in love. (I Peter 1:22; Romans 15:5-7; Colossians 3:14)

"May we give generously our tithes and offerings without reluctance or compulsion. Make grace abound so we have the finances to do every good work You've assigned to us. Make us rich in ways that result in generosity so You will be praised." (II Corinthians 9:6-11)

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