Tuesday, November 13, 2007

Touch Not Mine Anointed!



This is the story of one abusive pastor, Phil Arms, but there are some similarities to what Bellevue is experiencing. This is Phil Arms' bio, copied from his website, Phil Arms Ministries.

"Phil Arms grew up in West Texas. His dynamic Christian mother raised her six children in the local church. However, Phil did not commit his life to Christ during his younger years and chose to join himself with the sub-culture of the sixties and seventies in Houston, Texas. After experiencing one dead end after another, running from the love and voice of God, he began to search for reality and gave his life to Christ on a street corner in 1972. Immediately after his conversion, he began a ministry on the streets of Houston, Texas, witnessing to those in need of Jesus. Within a short time God began to open wide the doors for Phil to minister in churches, schools and evangelistic rallies.

"He was licensed to preach in a local Southern Baptist Church and commissioned as an evangelist, birthing Phil Arms Minstries. This inter-denominational ministry went on to create weekend rallies geared to youth for many years, adding television and radio ministries, and also numerous church revivals and area-wide campaigns where Phil always focused on preaching a Bible-centered, Christ-exalting message.

"After spending fifteen years in the ministry of full-time evangelism, Phil and his wife, Suzanne, felt God strongly urging them to start a local church in the Houston area in 1986 and for fourteen years witnessed a continual, powerful move of the Spirit of God as it touched thousands of lives and homes.

"Since the year 2000, Dr. Arms, has devoted much of his time to writing and speaking at Bible Conferences and in churches as well as guesting for radio programs.

"Phil has co-authored several best-selling books with men such as Tim LaHaye and others. These books include Earth's Final Days, The Triumphant Return of Christ, and Piercing the Darkness.

"He has also written Promise Keepers--Another Trojan Horse , Wet Flies Can't Fly, The Winner in You and Pokemon and Harry Potter--Fatal Attractions."

But that's not Phil Arms' whole story...

From The Houston Press we learn that there's a whole lot more to his story than the above.

Read
In Arms' Way.

Here's one couple's experience with Phil Arms:

Spiritual Abuse - Is there such a thing?

And another's:

Houston Church - The Problem

Related articles:

What is "Spiritual Abuse"?

Biblical Leadership Styles

Tell it to the Church

651 comments:

1 – 200 of 651   Newer›   Newest»
sickofthelies said...

I can't believe it!! I am the first one to post!!!

Now, as far as commenting on " Touch Not Mine Annointed"...it sounds very familiar...

gopher said...

Well tonight they had the new singles pastor preach, Russ Quinn.

His message was Sharing Jesus.

He stated that:
2% come thru the the advertising media
6% come thru the influence of the pastor
6% come thru Revival
86% come thru personal relationship of believers.

He should have been sharing this with Bellevue's leadership, as they have spent all that $$$ on TV ads, Millions on the pastor John Steven Gaines. Revival, that's what John has been convincing the staff and close followers, so that leaves very little on the personal relationship with its members.

Bellevue's reputation from all the members that were forced out and scattered to the far corners of West Tennessee, speaks volumes to the people of the city.

Bellevue Loves Itself

amazed said...

I still like the way First Baptist of Eulis, Texas handled the Claude Thomas mess. They paid for an outside audit and based on the findings of the audit, they gave Thomas two weeks to resign or be fired. It is refreshing to know that one church did not subscribe to "Touch not mine anointed".

MOM4 said...

amazed,
The "touch not mine anointed" threat, which is so often used by ministers who are trying to subvert accountability, is taken out of context in it's scriptural intent. It is referring to physically killing the king. (Psalms 105, I Chronicles 16)
It is a shame that the crooks and thieves who exercise this verse in order to intimidate those sheep who do not read and study scripture for themselves can get away with using God's Word to cover their sin; however, accountability will come to their doorstep in due time.

Isaiah 59:14 (KJV)

14And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter

New BBC Open Forum said...

I purchased Arms' book, Promise Keepers: Another Trojan Horse, at the former Baptist Bookstore a few years ago. It's a pretty good read. Unfortunately, as they say, there's a thin line between genius and insanity.

Neither BBC's library nor Lifeway has any of his books now. Frankly, I'm surprised the BB/Lifeway ever did. He's not too complimentary of Promise Keepers.

BTW, whatever happened to them? For a while that was the latest fad, but you don't hear much about them any more. Perhaps this is the next incarnation.

concernedSBCer said...

In the Spiritual Abuse column, this line stood out to me.....

"Another thing we noticed, was that there was not a published church directory, nor was there any public financial statements made available to members on any regular quarterly, yearly, or "as requested" basis."

Lack of accountability....sound familiar?

concernedSBCer said...

Wow....does this stand out to anyone???

"Abusive leaders:
They often publicly rebuke or ostracize members who simply disagree with leaders’ opinions.
They assume they have the right to tell or encourage members who don’t agree with leaders, to leave the church or even to separate from their spouses."

New BBC Open Forum said...

concernedsbcer,

Very good! Keep reading. I'm sure you'll find more similarities to BBC's situation.

concernedSBCer said...

How has this become lost?

In "Biblical Leadership Styles," it says: "Second, a leader is a person with God-given responsibility for the group he leads. Ultimately, a leader is called by God and is accountable to him not only for accomplishing the tasks to which his group is called, but also for nurturing their well-being."

More accountability. You mean leadership and power doesn't mean you don't answer to anyone? Oh my.....

imaresistor said...

Way of the Master Radio...

Joel O'Esteem vs. Paul Washer

No contest...

bent but not broken @ GFBC said...

I found this link:

http://www.alittleleaven.com/2007/11/rick-warrens-de.html

from slice of laodicea. It is a discussion about a video of Rick Warren that was just posted on 11/14.

There is a lot of meat in this discussion.

I believe God is purifying His Bride through all of this purpose driven & word-faith mess.

Discerning christians are becoming more and more edified and grounded in their faith and better prepared to detect "wolves" in sheep's clothing.

More and more of the "wolves" will have 'comeaparts' as they become exposed by the harsh light of truth. When SG was at GFBC he used to talk about people having a 'comeapart'. I think the phrase is very descriptive.

It is extremely sad that SG has caused Bellevue to have a 'comeapart'.

He will be held accountable sooner or later.

ezekiel said...

"He will be held accountable sooner or later."

Somehow we need to get to a point that we see God's judgement and punishment. His rod of correction. We need to see it in our own lives and the lives of others.

But to see it, we have to abandon years of teaching.....teaching that judgement day is coming....One of R.G. Lee's sermons....payday, someday, while a great sermon leads us to think of judgement and punishment some time in the future. Depending on one's particular leaning, that could be tomorrow or when one dies, or right before the lake of fire....

However, if one studies 1 Sam, 2 Sam and 1 Kings the presence of God's judgement is ever upon us. Today, now. After all we know that judgement begins with the house of the Lord.....

We see it with Saul, when the Lord rejects him as king. (1 Sam 15:26, 16:1)We see it with David when he sins, when he refuses to kill Saul, (1 Sam 26:23), when he commits adultery with Bathsheba, (2 Sam 12:10-14), when he refuses to judge and punish his son Amnon for incest in his own family he raised up Absalom, his own son as an adversary....

Now to better understand what is happening, lets look at this. This is from the "Davidic Covenant" and God is explaining to David what he will do to Solomon. If He will do it to Solomon, He will do it to all His sons....(Hebrews 12)

2 Sam 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Now what does He mean by the rod of men?

1 Kings 11:14 And the Lord raised up an adversary against Solomon, Hadad the Edomite. He was of the royal house in Edom.

Solomon turned from God and God raised an adversary to punish him. We see this in Absalom, when David's own son was raised as an adversary and even went in to his concubines on the roof in the sight of all Israel. (2 Sam 12:11) "stripes of the sons of men"..... David spent a lot of time on the run from Saul...an adversary...God was teaching and correcting him....When and only when David repented, offered sacrifices and humbled himself did God repent of his punishing hand....but even then, some of the judgements lasted the rest of David's life. He was at war most of it.

We need to start looking at the bad things that happen in our lives as judgement and the rod of correction rather than blaming it on satan.......David recognized the rod of men for what it was in 2 Sam 16:8-10). That is why he did not kill Shemei. He saw it for what it was...punishment.

Just because one is annointed (1 John 2:25-29) doesn't mean that He won't correct us with the rod of men. In fact, it almost guarantees that He will....

Bad things just kept on happening to Israel, to Jerusalem all brought about by God's judgement with the punishment or correction applied by men. Adversaries that God raised or stirred to the task.

If we keep blaming it on satan and keep doing it.....we refuse His correction...and perish as Jerusalem and Israel did.

Astounded said...

ezekiel said...
"He will be held accountable sooner or later."

Somehow we need to get to a point that we see God's judgement and punishment. His rod of correction. We need to see it in our own lives and the lives of others.

But to see it, we have to abandon years of teaching.....teaching that judgement day is coming....One of R.G. Lee's sermons....payday, someday, while a great sermon leads us to think of judgement and punishment some time in the future. Depending on one's particular leaning, that could be tomorrow or when one dies, or right before the lake of fire....

However, if one studies 1 Sam, 2 Sam and 1 Kings the presence of God's judgement is ever upon us. Today, now. After all we know that judgement begins with the house of the Lord.....

We see it with Saul, when the Lord rejects him as king. (1 Sam 15:26, 16:1)We see it with David when he sins, when he refuses to kill Saul, (1 Sam 26:23), when he commits adultery with Bathsheba, (2 Sam 12:10-14), when he refuses to judge and punish his son Amnon for incest in his own family he raised up Absalom, his own son as an adversary....

Now to better understand what is happening, lets look at this. This is from the "Davidic Covenant" and God is explaining to David what he will do to Solomon. If He will do it to Solomon, He will do it to all His sons....(Hebrews 12)

2 Sam 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Now what does He mean by the rod of men?

1 Kings 11:14 And the Lord raised up an adversary against Solomon, Hadad the Edomite. He was of the royal house in Edom.

Solomon turned from God and God raised an adversary to punish him. We see this in Absalom, when David's own son was raised as an adversary and even went in to his concubines on the roof in the sight of all Israel. (2 Sam 12:11) "stripes of the sons of men"..... David spent a lot of time on the run from Saul...an adversary...God was teaching and correcting him....When and only when David repented, offered sacrifices and humbled himself did God repent of his punishing hand....but even then, some of the judgements lasted the rest of David's life. He was at war most of it.

We need to start looking at the bad things that happen in our lives as judgement and the rod of correction rather than blaming it on satan.......David recognized the rod of men for what it was in 2 Sam 16:8-10). That is why he did not kill Shemei. He saw it for what it was...punishment.

Just because one is annointed (1 John 2:25-29) doesn't mean that He won't correct us with the rod of men. In fact, it almost guarantees that He will....

Bad things just kept on happening to Israel, to Jerusalem all brought about by God's judgement with the punishment or correction applied by men. Adversaries that God raised or stirred to the task.

If we keep blaming it on satan and keep doing it.....we refuse His correction...and perish as Jerusalem and Israel did.


Hmmmmmmmm.....

Are you saying that Dr. Lee's sermon Payday Someday deceives those who study it?

Do you not believe that Satan is loose and at work on Earth even as we speak?

Do you believe that God is capable of wreaking evil things upon His people? That is kind of contrary to what I have been taught for 50 years.

God's punishment is achieved when God removes His protective hand and allows Satan to do his evil deeds. God did not make Hadad Solomon's adversary. God allowed Hadad to be God's adversary. There is a huge difference.

You state that if I believe that all bad things that happen to me are attributed to Satan, and refuse His correction I will perish. Sorry, but my salvation is guaranteed by the Grantor. I trust Him not to take it away. Why? Because He told me so.

Lin said...

"We need to start looking at the bad things that happen in our lives as judgement and the rod of correction rather than blaming it on satan......

EZ, that is right. AMEN!! And one of the scariest judgements is if He does NOT discipline or chasitze. This can lead people into thinking they are being blessed when they have really been turned over.

God disciplines those that are His. He will not allow them to continue in unrepentent sin.

New BBC Open Forum said...

This should be interesting. Everyone?

amazed said...

I do believe we have a little dust up between ezekiel and astounded. Keep the preaching going because us average folks may learn something.

concernedSBCer said...

Lin: you bring up a point I have pondered for some time now. The book "The Secrets of the Vine" had a profound effect on my life because it describes just your point. It tell how vineyards are tended and taken care of in order to produce the most grapes. It's of course based on the parable. The part that really nailed me was that extra leaves and shoots must be pruned if the sun is going to get to the grapes and help them to grow. Of course the comparison was that while pruning hurts us, God does it to help us bear the best fruit. Discipline and care of his beloved.

I think Satan probably receives much more credit than he deserves. He is not omniscient or omnipresent. I think many things that happen to us are God's loving discipline not Satan's mischief.

Which leads me to an entirely different track. What constitutes discipline and correction and what constitutes blessing? Money is not always a blessing. A big house is not always a blessing. I don't think we can know about anyone else and we can barely know about ourselves! Just because someone is successful doesn't mean that person is blessed! By the same token, a poor person might be blessed tremendously. Our society has become so materialistic that we are placing judgments on things that we have no idea of the true nature and purpose.

Lin said...

tWhich leads me to an entirely different track. What constitutes discipline and correction and what constitutes blessing? Money is not always a blessing. A big house is not always a blessing. I don't think we can know about anyone else and we can barely know about ourselves! Just because someone is successful doesn't mean that person is blessed! By the same token, a poor person might be blessed tremendously. Our society has become so materialistic that we are placing judgments on things that we have no idea of the true nature and purpose.

10:29 AM, November 16, 2007

Amen!

Were the apostles blessed? They all were martyred and poor at the end.

Sometimes what we see as a blessing could really be a curse that leads us to hell. Paul Washer said teh scariest thing that could happen to most of us is that we get the desires of our heart. I agree.

The NT makes it clear several times that is is HARD for a rich person to enter the kingdom. Does not mean they cannot but Jesus made it clear it is HARD. And there is a reason which we tend to ignore and explain away.

Anything that gets our minds and focus from depending on Christ alone is a curse whether it is beauty, wealth or power.


this earth is NOT our home. We are just passing through. And we were created for ONE reason: To Glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lin wrote:

"Paul Washer said teh scariest thing that could happen to most of us is that we get the desires of our heart."

No, the scariest thing that could happen is that we get the desires of our heads.

Lin said...

"I think Satan probably receives much more credit than he deserves. He is not omniscient or omnipresent. I think many things that happen to us are God's loving discipline not Satan's mischief."

This whole topic really scares me when I think of what is taught out there. People like Joyce Meyer and even Gaines to some degree claim all the bad stuff is satan and just give him so much attention! My goodness, you have Gaines going through someone's office pointing out 'evil' pictures and furniture!

The scariest thing for Gaines is if he gets to continue as he is.


What if God is disciplining someone to sanctify them and draw them closer and someone teaches that it is only an attack of satan? Is that blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit?

We do know that scripture teaches, without holiness, one will not see God. What is Holiness? Set apart. Sanctified.

Whatever it is, I love what John Piper taught when he found out he had cancer: Don't Waste Your Cancer.

Lin said...

No, the scariest thing that could happen is that we get the desires of our heads.

11:11 AM, November 16, 2007

I don't know about you but I fight the flesh in my heart everyday. :o(
What I think would be best for me comes out of feelings and emotions. His ways are not our ways and I do not trust my own heart. But I trust HIM and recently, His ways have been the total opposite of what I could ever imagine.

Junkster said...

concernedSBCer said...
The book "The Secrets of the Vine" had a profound effect on my life because it describes just your point

Just goes to show God can use just about anyone to teach us something! :)

Junkster said...

Lin said...
this earth is NOT our home.

Wow, now I have seen everything. Lin is quoting Rick Warren!!

:)

concernedSBCer said...

Gotta love this....

Pastor's Wife: Church Is a Divorce Asset
AP
Posted: 2007-11-16 11:44:38
MINEOLA, N.Y. (AP) - The estranged wife of a pastor claims her husband blended his professional and personal finances so thoroughly that his church should be counted as an asset in their divorce.

A judge agreed in a decision published this week to hear arguments on the claim, and he ordered a financial appraisal of the church. Lawyers said it could represent the first time anyone in New York state has tried to treat a religious institution as a marital asset.

The wife argues that her husband of 31 years used his Brooklyn church as a "personal piggy bank," setting his own income, spending the congregation's tithes as he pleased and running a catering business from the building, according to the decision by state Supreme Court Judge Arthur M. Diamond. The couple's names were redacted from the decision.

The wife said $50,000 of the couple's money went into starting the church, and that the church property is partly hers.

"That church is no different than any other business he might have opened," said the wife's lawyer, Robert Pollack.

The pastor maintains he is simply a church employee, and the institution's funds should not be considered his, according to Diamond's decision.

"My client can't own the church," said the minister's lawyer, Eleanor Gery.

A message left at the church was not immediately returned early Friday.

concernedSBCer said...

Junk: Heeeeeey! I know the Prayer of Jabez was just, well, wrong....but I'm telling you....Secrets of the Vine made a lot of sense. It did to me anyway!

But you are right, of course, God can use anything!

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

Are you saying that Dr. Lee's sermon Payday Someday deceives those who study it?

No. He was entirely correct in my opinion. I do however believe that he was refering to the final judgement. The one before the lake of fire....but to say that one can do anything he wishes today and not pay for it till then is incorrect and deceitful. Dr. Lee didn't say that did he? Some folks believe that way. Wonder where they got that?

Do you not believe that Satan is loose and at work on Earth even as we speak?

Absolutely, he is after all lord of this world, right?

Do you believe that God is capable of wreaking evil things upon His people? That is kind of contrary to what I have been taught for 50 years.

Did He crush the church at Jerusalem? Who destroyed the first temple? Babylon right? Who stirred them up? Why was the great King Nebudchanezer eating grass and growing fingernails and hair?

1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1 Sam 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and [there was] a javelin in Saul's hand.

18:11 And Saul cast the javelin; for he said, I will smite David even to the wall [with it]. And David avoided out of his presence twice.

Do you see anything evil in trying to kill someone with a spear?


God's punishment is achieved when God removes His protective hand and allows Satan to do his evil deeds. God did not make Hadad Solomon's adversary. God allowed Hadad to be God's adversary. There is a huge difference.

1 Kings 11:11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.

11:12 Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: [but] I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.

11:13 Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; [but] will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.

11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he [was] of the king's seed in Edom.


You state that if I believe that all bad things that happen to me are attributed to Satan, and refuse His correction I will perish. Sorry, but my salvation is guaranteed by the Grantor. I trust Him not to take it away. Why? Because He told me so.

Ok, live it your way. Refuse correction, Saul did. Or you can fight the battles, repent when you see the correction, turn back to God like David did repeatedly or maybe even live it like Solomon, follow His commandments and statutes and live a long peacefull, blessed life. Just leave the women alone...

I would apreciate it if you would look at the scripture support that I include with my posts before you jump in arguing. I include them just for people like you that want to argue with scripture based on what you have been taught. A lot of the things you have been taught may need closer examination.

3:4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.For thou [art] not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, [but] to the house of Israel;Not to many people of a strange speech and of an hard language, whose words thou canst not understand. Surely, had I sent thee to them, they would have hearkened unto thee. But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel [are] impudent and hardhearted.

oc said...

I'm just catching up.
But I wonder if the discussion should be about the difference between discipline and punishment.

Discipline is for those who are His.

Punishment is for those who reject Him.

Just my thoughts.
oc.

oc said...

NASS said:
No, the scariest thing that could happen is that we get the desires of our heads.


Lin said:
I don't know about you but I fight the flesh in my heart everyday. :o(


oc says:
I think you both are right. The Law of Gravity. (or should that be the Law of Depravity?).
It drains from the head into the heart.

Just sayin'.
oc.

oc said...

.....and it then infects the soul.

Lin said...

"Lin said...
this earth is NOT our home.

Wow, now I have seen everything. Lin is quoting Rick Warren!!

:)"



Junk, It is a good thing I do not know where you live. You might just get TP'd for that statement alone! :o)

I also had fleshly thoughts about dying your cats hair pink.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I also had fleshly thoughts about dying your cats hair pink."

I'm sure that was from the head and not the heart.

I suppose it doesn't matter where your head is as long as you say your heart's in the right place. Can I have an "amen"? Heh heh.

Lin said...

I suppose it doesn't matter where your head is as long as you say your heart's in the right place. Can I have an "amen"? Heh heh.

4:20 PM, November 16, 2007

Duh. NOW I get it. A mistake of the head and not the heart as in Gaines.

I completely forgot about that one. Sorry Nass....I could not figure out where you were coming from....

New BBC Open Forum said...

I wonder how many BBC children have tried that one on their parents? "But Dad, it was a mistake of the mind, not the heart." It sounds just as ridiculous when a grown man says it, too.

concernedSBCer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
concernedSBCer said...

Hey Lin: I think we both need to TP Junk!

Astounded said...

ezekiel answered...

Do you not believe that Satan is loose and at work on Earth even as we speak?

Absolutely, he is after all lord of this world, right?


Actually, Satan is the landlord of this world. But that will change, and I think sooner rather than later.

Did He crush the church at Jerusalem? Who destroyed the first temple? Babylon right? Who stirred them up?

Believe me, God did not have to stir them up. All He has to do is allow them to act without checks. God does not have to inspire evil in man. Man is very capable of evil through self inspiration.

Astounded said...

ezekiel said...

Ok, live it your way. Refuse correction, Saul did. Or you can fight the battles, repent when you see the correction, turn back to God like David did repeatedly or maybe even live it like Solomon, follow His commandments and statutes and live a long peacefull, blessed life. Just leave the women alone...

I am a regular reader of this blog and I am acutely aware of quite a few of your past statements like the one above. You have a talent of skewing the statements of others and accusing the writer of statements that they did not profess. Your above statement is a case in point and and I refuse to allow you to proceed as you have in the past (your past conversations with someone called saved by grace as an example).

Not one time have I stated that I reject the notion of God handing out punishment. Anyone who thinks otherwise is sadly informed. I struggle every day to NOT live it my way but to live it as Christ commands. I do NOT refuse correction. I am quite sure that God corrects me more than any writer or reader of this blog, and I praise Him for it, because He cares about me or He wouldn't do it. Even though I disagree quite often with her, in an earlier post, Lin hit the nail on the head.

Sometimes what we see as a blessing could really be a curse that leads us to hell. Paul Washer said teh scariest thing that could happen to most of us is that we get the desires of our heart. I agree.

The NT makes it clear several times that is is HARD for a rich person to enter the kingdom. Does not mean they cannot but Jesus made it clear it is HARD. And there is a reason which we tend to ignore and explain away.


Many times, I have heard from wealthy people how God has blessed them with a successful business and a fat wallet. Well there is no doubt they have been blessed, but exactly who has bestowed that blessing? Remember, Satan rewards his followers handsomely. In my weaker moments, I think, "Why does this man excell, Lord while I am constantly being taken to the woodshed?"

The answer is always the same. God says, "Because I love you, my child and those earthly treasures are as filthy rags compared to your rewards."

Those earthly rewards may well be handed out by Satan. If you perform Satan's work you will be handsomely rewarded, but at the cost of your soul.

Yes. I am very well aware that God regularly hands out punishment. I am also keenly aware that Satan is alive and well, and wreaking evil constantly. Bad things happen. 5 year olds of Godly parents are raped and strangled. Is this God's punishment? Only God can answer, but I can darn sure say that Satan had a hand in the atrocity. As I said before, the worst punishment anyone can suffer is for God to allow what comes naturally to man. While it may be punishment, God did not MAKE a person rape and strangle that child. In fact, God is the only force that can PREVENT a person from raping and strangling a 5 year old. Every bad thing that happens to one of God's own is NOT God's punishment for some transgression. If we as believers were punished for all of our transgressions, God would be doing nothing but meting out punishment.

Ezekiel, you are an expert when it comes to God's wrath, vengeance and punishment. But throughout all of your posts I find very little, if any statements on the MOST important aspect of God and His interaction with His flock. I saw in a previous post that you are familiar with a web site called Biblegateway.com. I suggest you go to that site and type in these two words.

Jesus
Love

Your eyes will be opened to a wonderful new aspect to God. Many of the verses will be about God's unconditional love for His greatist creation, a creation that strayed from Him to the point of no return. The only way for redemption was for Him to step in and make the supreme sacrifice for reunification.

In the future, ezekiel, don't misrepresent what I say and I promise to keep my stinger in.

Astounded said...

I will make one more post before I put my stinger back in and retire for the night. Knowledge is a sphere. As knowledge grows, so does that sphere. If the sphere is the sum of one's knowledge, then that which touches the outside of the sphere is the unknown. As the circumference of that sphere grows, the area of the sphere grows exponentially and, consequently, the amount of unknown that is touching the sphere of knowledge also grows exponentially. If our knowledge is the size of a BB, there is very little surface, then that which we perceive of as unknown is also small. As our knowledge sphere grows, we also become more aware of that of which we do not have knowledge. So, the more you study and learn, the more you will realize that which you still have not learned.

Ezekiel, it seems to me that your sphere of knowledge encompasses the wrathful and vengeful side of God. As you study God's word and your sphere grows to encompass God's mercy, grace and love, you will see there is so much more to learn about God. When your sphere has grown to include these traits of God, you will be energized about all the unknown that is then just coming into contact with your sphere. I know from your past posts that you are relatively new to the deep study of God's word and, now remembering that, I apologize if I was somewhat harsh with you in my previous post. But I am serious about the study of God's love, grace and sacrifice for us. It puts the judgement, wrath and punishment in such harmonious perspective.

concernedSBCer said...

Astounded: You hit on a point I was trying to make in an earlier post. It is very hard for me to know sometimes when something is discipline from God, temptation from Satan, and just plain evil because we live in an evil world.

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

Wow, not sure where you are coming from here. I post and you pounce. You don't refute what I post with scripture, just jump up and tell me that I am wrong. Then later, you tell me that I am not wrong but I am missing the more graceful loving nature of God.....

Have your really read what I posted? Have you really read the 1 Sam, 2 Sam and 1 Kings? Do you not see the mercy and the grace and the love of God in any of that? Do you not see the mercy and the love in Hebrews 12? That wasn't part of the message, I ran out of time. Would you feel bettter if I preached that one next? Why now do you drag your "stinger" out and tell me that my BB is lop sided and that if I will study more that my BB will get bigger and come to include the loving nature of God?

Mercy, Grace, discipline are all part of the WORD.
Today, we have huge churches and rich preachers telling us that we need to get our blessing now, preachers telling us that love, mercy and grace will save us while ignoring obedience and discipline.

Maybe I just feel led to balance the preaching a bit.....

As to your argument that wealth doesn't always come from God...I would argue that it doesn't always come from satan either......God clearly blessed David and Solomon. Are you saying that being blessed is not possable if we are being obedient followers of Christ? If you are, are you not preaching a pretty gloomy message yourself?
Then the real question, why are we discussing wealth? I don't think I ever mentioned it?

Then let's get to the 5 year old. Did I bring that up? No, that is where you do the same thing you accuse me of. You mischaracterize what I said. Did I ever say everything bad that happens is caused by God? Did I ever say that everything bad that happens is discipline?

You have a pretty good talent yourself for mischaracterizing what I say, or at least it appears that way to me.

We can't blame it all on God's discipline any more than we can blame it all on satan......but then as you state in your original...."sting"...satan can't do anything God doesn't let him. You can find that in Job.

Lin said...

"Ezekiel, it seems to me that your sphere of knowledge encompasses the wrathful and vengeful side of God. As you study God's word and your sphere grows to encompass God's mercy, grace and love, you will see there is so much more to learn about God."

Doesn't the Cross make God's vast love obvious? Why is it people want so much more?

I agree with Ez. In the modern and post modern church, we hear NOTHING but God's love and very little about wrath and sin. Many well known pastors have even taken to calling SIN, Mistakes.

We have dumbed down sin and God's wrath to the point that you have a pastor who thought it was OK to keep a child molester on staff as a minister. This is going on all over...this dumbing down of sin and God's wrath. Now all those people who follow this pastor think the same way!

Everyone within a mile of a church knows all about the unconditional love part. It is all over TV and radio with these pastors. What people do not fully understand is the wages of sin.

They do not understand that when you are really saved you have a totally different view and relationship with SIN! Yep. I said SIN.

Which is strange because without repentance and faith we face hell.
Don't these pastors know that?

God's love was PROVEN on the Cross. God's love was PROVEN when He allowed Adam and Eve to live after the garden.

Lin said...

"satan can't do anything God doesn't let him. You can find that in Job."

Where did the serpent in the garden come from since everything had to be created.

Just asking

Mary said...

Not exactly the same topic, but close -- this is taken from Dr. Rogers' LWF Daily Devotional for November 15:

BIBLE MEDITATION:
“Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of is Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.” Revelation 12:10

DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT:
You will be a miserable Christian if you don’t learn the difference between Holy Spirit conviction and Satanic accusation. When the Holy Spirit convicts you of a sin, He will not just make you feel bad all over. He will put His finger right on the sore spot and push. He will convict you specifically and He will convict you legitimately. Now if the devil doesn’t convict you of all your sins in general, he will try to accuse you of a specific sin for which you have already been forgiven. And he will fight a losing battle because if you put your sin under the blood of Jesus Christ and it comes up again, it’s not God bringing it up.

ACTION POINT:
Are you under conviction or accusation today about an unconfessed sin? Read Revelation 12:9-11. Claim the powerful blood of Jesus to cover your sin. Repent and believe!

concernedSBCer said...

From today's LWF devotion:

One of the strangest verses that ever fell from the lips of the Prince of Peace, Jesus, is this: “Think not that I have come to send peace on the earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword.” (Matthew 10:34) That's incredible because the Bible calls Him the “Prince of Peace.” What is He talking about then? He is saying, “I came with a sword to put a line of demarcation between truth and error, between light and dark, between sin and righteousness.” When God’s standard of righteousness is set, there will always be division. Without righteousness there can be no peace. Peace can never come where sin remains. God will never make a peace treaty with sin, never!

This is something this blog has stood for....not condoning sin by going along with it. According to the Georgia Baptist Convention, "responsible blogging can be a means of promoting the flow of information and encouragement of our people, but certain people use this tool for divisive and destructive rhetoric at the expense of peace among the Brethren" and "blogging is also being used by some as a tool for personal attacks upon other Christian Brothers and Sisters, and this critical and divisive use promotes a negative view of the Southern Baptist Convention in the eyes of the society we are striving to reach with the Gospel."

So it would be best for all to just be quiet and "touch not thine anointed?"

But wait, there's more from the Georgia Baptist Convention: "the messengers of this convention oppose blogging when it is used to cause division and disharmony among the members of our Southern Baptist Family and since personal differences should not be dealt with in public view" and "we reaffirm the historic method of administering our agencies and institutions through elected boards of trustees, and we call upon bloggers to cease the critical second-guessing of these elected leaders."

Sounds reasonable, doesn't it? Except that this is the same group that can't seem to get together a list of accused sexual abusers so they can't move from church to church. This is the same group that gives an embezzler a cushy job at a seminary. C'mon....trust is earned and integrity must be maintained.

Martin Luther had no other option when he posted onto that door; many churches have no other options than to blog to try to get their message out.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Context.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Commentary.

New BBC Open Forum said...

More commentary.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hmmm... a little stocking stuffer idea perhaps?

Scion said...

from concernedsbcer;

"But wait, there's more from the Georgia Baptist Convention: "the messengers of this convention oppose blogging when it is used to cause division and disharmony among the members of our Southern Baptist Family and since personal differences should not be dealt with in public view" and "we reaffirm the historic method of administering our agencies and institutions through elected boards of trustees, and we call upon bloggers to cease the critical second-guessing of these elected leaders."


Scion says:

The arrogance of our "elected" leaders in the SBC never ceases to amaze me. Why is it that when someone is "elected" to a position of leadership and responsibility (if you can call controlled selection an "election"), they always feel as though they are God's only spokesperson and should never be challenged? Does this ring alarm bells for anyone else? Did not the New Testament Pharisees possess the same mentality?

It is our duty as Christians to challenge sin when we see it. And not all sin is out in the open. It is still sin when it has been covered up and hidden from public view. It is still sin when it is in hearts and minds, even when no one else can read those thoughts.

If we as Christians see something wrong, we need to speak out. Jesus saw the moneychangers in the temple, and threw them out, when no one else would.

When the "elected" leaders of the church body think that it is their right to dictate the words and opinions of the members, then what we are looking at is the Church of England all over again. As we celebrate Thanksgiving this week, we as Christians should remember why the Pilgrims first came to America.

concernedSBCer said...

The first commentary contains this:

"The "historic method" of pledging allegiance to the convention won't stand. The next generation is going to question their beliefs. In public, in private, and wherever else they are. If leaders make decisions they disagree with they're going to write about it. I guess it comes down to the question that had to be asked way back during the reformation...Do I believe in the priesthood of the believer or in the church? If individual people really do have access to God then the "elected leaders" don't really have any claim to pass laws that shut up Biblically based opposing opinions, do they? If, however, the final say resides with the convention then this resolution defines a new sin. Should I ask my forgiveness directly from God or do I need to drive up to Duluth?"

EXCELLENT point, I thought.

concernedSBCer said...

Whoa now! The second commentary is blaming the CONSERVATIVES for hypocrisy. Well...I guess now that I think about it, is the "touch not thine anointed" the conservatives view???
Oh my! Am I not a conservative??? I'm feeling short of breath!

Maybe he should have said Ultraconservative? Or Fundamentalist?

Someone...help please!

New BBC Open Forum said...

concernedsbcer wrote:

"Oh my! Am I not a conservative???"

The Democratic Party used to be a whole different animal, too. So was the SBC. For that matter, so was BBC... to some extent.

Perhaps it's time to reevaluate the labels we choose to wear. If the likes of Paige Patterson are the definition of "conservative" now, then count me out! Paige Patterson and his cohorts have done for the SBC and the name "conservative" what Ted Kennedy and the Clintons have done for the Democratic Party.

Lynn said...

New BBC Open Forum said...

concernedsbcer wrote:

"Oh my! Am I not a conservative???"

The Democratic Party used to be a whole different animal, too. So was the SBC. For that matter, so was BBC... to some extent.

Perhaps it's time to reevaluate the labels we choose to wear. If the likes of Paige Patterson are the definition of "conservative" now, then count me out! Paige Patterson and his cohorts have done for the SBC and the name "conservative" what Ted Kennedy and the Clintons have done for the Democratic Party.

12:11 PM, November 18, 2007

And you cannot even look at the Republican Party the same way either. The Republican Party is no longer a conservative party either. Just ask Agents Ramos and Compeon who are sitting in a jail cell because Bush and his goons hid evidence from the jury, such as the fact that the smuggler who they shot smuggled another load of drugs into the country during the trial!!!!!!!

gmommy said...

ConcernedSBCer and Nass,

I recently went thru the same revelation....and some of my friends are bothered by my "relabeling" of myself.

If PP and all those of like mind and behavior do this in the name of being conservative...then I am no longer a conservative.

Hanging on to that "label" now reminds me of the lady I've known for years who got mad at me around the time of the bogus business meeting.
After telling me the church was being cleansed of people like me....
she said she didn't question or need to know the details of the PW issue or any other issue becase God put the leaders in charge...not her....she TRUSTED them to know what was best.

I've wondered why she believes God gave us a brain....
and how PP and those of like mind and behavior got to the point where they knew people would be so willing NOT to use their brains???

WHY is Wade B. SUCH a threat to these men "in power"??????

I long for Truth and Light to be more important than power, control, and money to people who call themselves believers.

GBCBeware said...

Does it bother anyone else that Steve Gaines apparently is trying to buddy up to Hal Kitchings? This is the second week in a row that he (SG) has made a spectacle in the Bellevue Worship Service of what a great Man Of God Dr. Kitchings is, and how we should "lift up Germantown Baptist".
I may be a cynic, but watching the way Steve Gaines has treated people who get crossways with him, and knowing how many people at GBC, both staff and members, are crossways with him, Dr. Kitchings better beware that Steve Gaines may attempt to manipulate a relationship with him, in order to somehow "get even" with those he perceives to be his enemies at GBC. We all know who they are. No need to mention them again.

Before those of you dismiss this, you should know this would fit his pattern of behavior at every church he's been at, including BBC. Steve Gaines preaches on thing from the pulpit, and then practices another behind closed doors. You should know of the 'behind the scenes" visits' over the past year to GBC and other places by people who are "pro SG" Bellevue members, attacking them for "stealing our staff and members", among other things. If they were not working at SG's behest, he certainly should be reigning them in, as they certainly seemed to have taken up his offenses and acting in a decidedly un-Christlike manner.

Also, the tribute to Dr. Rogers this morning on the 2nd anniversary of his home-going. It was wonderful to sing "Lord I believe" and "Victory in Jesus", but it was hard to not think when he said that "we should honor the Rogers family, even though they may not be here"; "They aren't here, because you ran them off, Sir." It's nauseating to think of how disrespectful he treated that man and his family in private after he became pastor, and then gets up in public and "honors" them.

As a wise old man used to say "Your actions are speaking so loud, I can't hear a word you are saying."

Lindon said...

Whoa now! The second commentary is blaming the CONSERVATIVES for hypocrisy. Well...I guess now that I think about it, is the "touch not thine anointed" the conservatives view???
Oh my! Am I not a conservative??? I'm feeling short of breath!

Maybe he should have said Ultraconservative? Or Fundamentalist?

Someone...help please!

11:42 AM, November 18, 2007

It is about corrupting power. The CR had to go against their own leaders back in the late 70's in order to bring about the CR. Now, they are trying everything they can to shut up any questios or dissent at all about secondary issues. It is shameful. And they are using the same tired arguements we have seen everywhere that are not biblical.

They want to define what being a Baptist is very narrowly...such as being a cessationist and dumbing down the Priesthood and replace it with authoritarian teachings which are extra biblical. They are even trying to promote a closed Lord's Supper and accept Baptisms only from approved Baptist churches on the mission field.

In short, they are trying very hard to dictate what has always been a local decision. SBC Baptists, as a whole, have always defined themselves on the primary gospel. And if they could not, then they split as we have seen with the Carter people or the Independent, Free Willers, etc.

I am not sure that many people know about the SBC missionaries who were told to sign a document that went beyond the Baptist Faith Message or they would be fired. Quite a few refused to sign it and had to leave. I have cousins who refused to sign.

The SBC is not the same church I grew up in. I can remember my mom being a messenger for years and 20,000 would show up. Now they are lucky to have 6,000 and mostly employees of churches not laity.

While I might agree on some doctrinal points, I am totally opposed to this crusade to shut down any dissent. It is NOT Baptist! They are doing exactly what the seekers do by saying it it divisive, etc. They are calling for a false unity that is not in Christ.

It reeks of touch not thine anointed and we know how unbiblical that one is. As we have discussed it ad nauseum around here. But it sells. People love to follow mere men.

Forget conservative/liberal. The powers to be in teh SBC are using the liberal tag on anyone who dissents. These are not people who deny the virgin birth, etc., These are people asking why you have to be a cessantionist or have a closed communion to be a Baptist.

It is shameful. The SBC is sliding toward Patriarchy in order to prop up a small group in power. Remember, your CP dollars are going to huge salaries, 90,000 portraits, etc. and helping them to keep a solid grip on power. It is positively incestual when you start seeing the same family names on committee after committee and Trustee board after board. Mega church pastors wives, their kids, faculty from seminaries, etc.

I think they should pass a motion that says if you are an employee of the SBC in any entity you cannot serve on a BoT or state association. Period. Make the laity oversee.

These folks have totally forgotten that they ANSWER to the churches.

gopher said...

Bellevue Today November 18, 2007

"Worship Center Flowers
- The flowers in the Worship Center today are given in loving memory of DR Adaian Rogers and in honor of Mrs Adrian Rogers by DR and Mrs Steve Gaines and the Bellevue Baptists Church family. They are given in deep gratitude and appreciation for the 32 years ministry of Dr and Mrs Rogers as Pastor and wife of Bellevue Baptist Church."


UGGH!!!!!!!!

Lynn said...

gmommy said...

ConcernedSBCer and Nass,

I recently went thru the same revelation....and some of my friends are bothered by my "relabeling" of myself.

If PP and all those of like mind and behavior do this in the name of being conservative...then I am no longer a conservative.


Lynn's Response:

You are not the only one. Both from a Christian and Political perspectives, I've viewed myself, especially as of late as more of a centrist than conservative. Right now, I don't trust anyone on either side of the aisle. I now look at the issues, find as much information as I can and then decide whether or not I'm for or against. I'm too independent minded for some to be viewed as a conservative, and too conservative to be a liberal. Its really sad to be honest.

Mary said...

NASS wrote, in part:

"Perhaps it's time to reevaluate the labels we choose to wear. If the likes of Paige Patterson are the definition of "conservative" now, then count me out! Paige Patterson and his cohorts have done for the SBC and the name "conservative" what Ted Kennedy and the Clintons have done for the Democratic Party.

12:11 PM, November 18, 2007"



Perhaps it’s time to free ourselves altogether from wearing labels. When there is no longer any clear and consistent delineation of their meanings, labels only serve to confuse and obfuscate the truth of whatever may lie beneath.

I haven’t used a specific label for myself in years. When speaking with others, I refer to myself as, “a Christian; a blood-bought, born again, Bible believing follower of Jesus Christ, and I currently attend a local Baptist church.” This answer usually brings up a question or two and I’ve found it to be an excellent opening to witness for Jesus.

My point is this: my loyalty to any church, any pastor, any denomination or any association is only as strong (and will last only as long) as their loyalty to the Holy Scriptures. My undying loyalty is to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as stated in the Holy Bible. I need no other label.

Mary

gmommy said...

They have forgotten that they answer to the churches because they don't....and they know it.

On a small scale...
remember the Parlamentarian that was willing to throw Roberts Rules to the wind

(now WHY did our church business meeting need to hide behind those rules and that man again???????)

in order to make things work the way leadership insisted things go...NOT by the Roberts Rules.

Then SG was shamelessly bragging the very next week at the seminary about how they shut the meeting down and had no intentions of allowing the victim to speak....

THEN DC had a whole different spin to the shut down..
They accomplished their goals....at the cost of whatever it took.
Corruption is a good word, Lin.

My thinking is that the SBC is setting the example for the churches we are reading about...certainly not just BBC.

Also...a question for the SBC financially savy....
a nurse I worked with recently told me that when he was a part of a group of church planters that met with reps from the SBC, they were told they would get "support" from them IF a large % of their offering/ tithes money was sent to them.

IS That how it works with the SBC???...
(please forgive my ignorance in this area)

Psalm 43:3 said...

From Bellevue Bulletin today:

Seven Ways You Can Help Unborn Babies Today:
• Pray.
• Educate others with the facts on abortion.
• Join a pro-life organization.
• Support pro-life crisis pregnancy centers.
• Support abstinence educational curriculum in
schools.
• Share your pro-life convictions with
governmental leaders.
• Vote for pro-life candidates running for office.

I would add an eighth: Don't give (and certainly not hand-deliver) money from prolife members of your church to a church that is sure to promote or directly donate those funds to abortionists.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Awww... that was just a mistake of the mind, don't you know?

Mary said...

No, that was a compromising attempt by SG, who was a newbie in town at the time, to buy influence in the community. That action said more than words could ever say about the man's character and willingness to compromise his beliefs for a moment in the sun.

M~

gmommy said...

AMEN!!
Go Mary!!! (for both posts!)

what Mary said about labels is so right!!

MOM4 said...

gopher said...
Bellevue Today November 18, 2007

"Worship Center Flowers
- The flowers in the Worship Center today are given in loving memory of DR Adaian Rogers and in honor of Mrs Adrian Rogers by DR and Mrs Steve Gaines and the Bellevue Baptists Church family. They are given in deep gratitude and appreciation for the 32 years ministry of Dr and Mrs Rogers as Pastor and wife of Bellevue Baptist Church."


UGGH!!!!!!!!

UGGH is right! I can almost hear Dr. and Mrs. Rogers AND the Rogers family saying, "No Thanks!".

What a ploy! These people are shameless. How much you want to bet that they were NOT included in the anniversary memorial the Rogers family had.....(that is if I were a bettin MOM:))

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Steve Gaines and Mac Brunson are reading from the same playbook. Those flowers honoring Dr. and Mrs Rogers - Mac hardly every mentioned Mrs. Lindsay his first year, but when he gets in hot water, or wants to increase giving, he plays the Mrs. Lindsay card. Then turns around and scolds the church for living in the past.

One of the things Bellevue might want to add to the list of things to do about abortion:

How about if you BBC hosts a "Night for Israel" like FBC Jax did, where the funds will go to an Israeli hospital where state-funded abortions are performed?

Rod Almondmartanti said...

It is only logical that all, ALL believers are against the murdering of unborn children. However, it really sounds "empty" and shallow for a big PUFF PUFF of words on anti-abortion, and how concerned you are about the lives of the unborn, when you personally authorize and hand out a check to a chruch who propotes the very thing you say you are agains. Mixed message? Absolutely! When things are so unclear and the piper is playing such and unclear melody, how do you know if what you are listening to is not just another wolf in sheeps clothing, not bothering to hide its tail, teeth, tongue or pups on the front lawn?

This is at least one case of actions and words lying to each other.

Rod Almondmartanti said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
gmommy said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
sickofthelies said...
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ezekiel said...

Following is a small excerpt from 1 Kings 8. It is chock full of everything I have been talking about for months....if one looks for it. Affliction, correction, mercy and grace. Lest anyone be offended, I will limit this post to His mercy and His grace.

1 Kings 8:56Blessed be the Lord who has given rest to his people Israel, according to all that he promised. [Josh. 21:45; 23:14] Not one word has failed of all his good promise, which he spoke by Moses his servant. 57 The Lord our God be with us, as he was with our fathers. [[Deut. 31:6; Josh. 1:5; 1 Sam. 12:22]] May he not leave us or forsake us, 58 that he may [Ps. 119:36] incline our hearts to him, to walk in all his ways and to keep his commandments, his statutes, and his rules, which he commanded our fathers. 59 Let these words of mine, with which I have pleaded before the Lord, be near to the Lord our God day and night, and may he maintain the cause of his servant and the cause of his people Israel, as each day requires, 60 that [ver. 43] all the peoples of the earth may know that [Deut. 4:35, 39; [ch. 18:39]] the Lord is God; there is no other. 61 [2 Kgs. 20:3; [ch. 11:4; 15:3, 14]] Let your heart therefore be wholly true to the Lord our God, walking in his statutes and keeping his commandments, as at this day.

If we look at this passage in congunction with Hebrews 8 and the New Covenant,(see also Psalms 119:35) if we consider what it is to be "children of the promise", to in fact be "part of Israel", this passage can't help but to strengthen you in you struggles today!

By the way, for all you Mac computer users out there, I got this from a program called MacSword. It is a free program that can be downloaded and customized to fit your needs. The Text size can be modified to make reading easy and the references will pop up when you place the mouse pointer on them. So if you tire of reading small print, or like the references as close as moving the pointer, I suggest you take a look at it. The reference is to the scripture following it though and that takes a bit of getting used to.

watchman said...

Faithful Biblical Baptist preacher and faithful Shepherd blasts postmodernism and Robert Schullers Re-think conference back to hell from whence it originated.

NOT ALL PREACHERS HAVE SUCCUMBED TO THE SPIRIT OF THIS AGE

imaresistor said...

Watchman...

I'd love to download this sermon. Could you provide the link for me? You may send it by my email address if you like.

Thanks...

Ima

imaresistor said...

There are sermons we need to listen to and then there are sermons we need to absorb. This one needs to be absorbed...I highly recommend this.

Salvation Survey:Saved or Self-Deceived by John MacArthur

imaresistor said...

I definite feel the 'sting' of this. Please read. Where is the love for fellow man? The Christian brother/sister?

SBC President Not Interested in the Victims of Purpose Driven

amazed said...

Hey Folks...As long as church members continue to supply the money, you will always have preachers being paid way to much and you will always have high paid staff at the TBC and SBC level.

The biggest lie out there is "my tithe goes to the Lord and I have no responsibility as to how it is used."

watchman said...

ima

here is the link to his website and messages

northwest baptist ministry

MOM4 said...

amazed said..
The biggest lie out there is "my tithe goes to the Lord and I have no responsibility as to how it is used."

And don't forget "don't touch the annointed one who is spending it"
It's our responsibility to give and their responsibility to spend....no questions asked....

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, I must have forgotten the chapter and verse where that is found??? I just can't seem to find it!!

gmommy said...

amazed...I think we are in agreement on that one.

MOM4 said...

My "Adrianism" of the day:
"False religion is characterized by force. True religion is characterized by Faith"

So why should BBC staff, teachers, volunteers, and ministers be FORCED to sign an oath of allegiance to Steve Gaines?

Lin said...

Ez, I am glad to hear MacSword finally came out. I love e-sword and have been using it for a while.


Ima, this does not surprise me. Where is Page's concern that an IMB Trustee has been censured for disagreeing? Behind closed doors, no less. Why are they meeting behind closed doors now?

Where is his outrage that the IMB BoT passed a rule that all trustees must speak positively of any decision they make whether they voted against it or not? What is this...the Soviet Baptist Convention?

What I find incredible is what Rick Warren, Paige Patterson, John Floyd and Al Mohler all have in common. They all believe it is hateful and divisive to disagree with them on any doctrinal/method issue.

All of them are doing what they can to stifle any dissent or even questions! Questions are hateful! They all want a false unity because it maintains their POWER. And never forget it is all about power.

People do not want to believe it about thier coveted leaders. But having power for a long time breeds this sort of thinking. It is corrupting. All of us would be suspectible to it. It is the rare man who isn't.

That is why scripture teaches the 'spiritually mature' as servants. Not a title or position. It is not about earthly 'authority'. It is about Christ.


Some of the teaching on authority they bring us makes them the earthly priest between us and Jesus Christ. Basically setting themselves up above our Lord.

Frank Page cannot speak out about Rick Warren when he is following the same seeker methods. So does Al Mohler's local church where he teaches SS.

imaresistor said...

lin...

Where does Al Mohler attend church. I'd like to look that over.

Lin said...

ima, check your e-mail

Lin said...

Ima, your e-mails are bouncing back with a fatal error. (Oh my)

Please e-mail me at my gmail account.

Lin said...

A MUST read. This is HYSTERICAL!



http://sbcouthouse.blogspot.com/

imaresistor said...

lin...

Done

imaresistor said...

Lin...you are right. That is a 'must read'. :)

gopher said...

Scandal Hits Atlanta-Area Megachurch

Here


Look at these comments:

"It was a necessary evil to bring us back to a God-consciousness," said the younger D.E.Paulk, explaining that the church had become too personality-driven and prone to pastor worship.

"My uncle is 100 percent guilty, but his accusers ARE guilty as well," D.E. Paulk said.....

WHAT?????


At its peak in the early 1990s, it claimed about 10,000 members and 24 pastors and was a media powerhouse. By soliciting tithes of 10 percent from each member's income, the church was able to build a Bible college, two schools, a worldwide TV ministry and a $12 million sanctuary the size of a fortress.

Today, though, membership is down to about 1,500, the church has 18 pastors, most of them volunteers, and the Bible college and TV ministry have shuttered — a downturn blamed largely on complaints ..........

Astounded said...

Sorry I did not get back to you in a timely fashion since I have not been near a computer since Friday.

ezekiel said...

Wow, not sure where you are coming from here. I post and you pounce. You don't refute what I post with scripture, just jump up and tell me that I am wrong. Then later, you tell me that I am not wrong but I am missing the more graceful loving nature of God.....


The only thing I considered "wrong" in your post is that I think you minimalize the the evil that Satan wreaks in this world. I do not dispute your posts of God's punishment. I do dispute that we give too much credit to Satan for the bad things that happen.

Have your really read what I posted? Have you really read the 1 Sam, 2 Sam and 1 Kings?

Yes I have read I Samuel, II Samuel and I Kings, along with the other 63 books for well over 30 years.

Do you not see the mercy and the grace and the love of God in any of that? Do you not see the mercy and the love in Hebrews 12?

Yes, I have read what you posted. What bothers me about your post is that I infer (and I apologize if I infer wrongly) from your writings is that salvation, as you refer to it, is an off again, on again, hit or miss body of works that is necessary for the retention of your salvation. Once gained, salvation cannot be lost again. I believe you must be "born again". I do not believe that once you are born again that you can be "lost again". I know that there are nonChristians that read this blog and at the risk of sounding like Rick Warren (who I think does more harm than good in bringing souls to Christ), the bulk of your posts would force many nonbelievers to shy away from the unlimited love of God.

Mercy, Grace, discipline are all part of the WORD.
Today, we have huge churches and rich preachers telling us that we need to get our blessing now, preachers telling us that love, mercy and grace will save us while ignoring obedience and discipline.


I agree with this statement. It falls under the category "prosperity salvation" which I have heard preached relentlessly back to the times of Jim Bakker on the PTL Club.


Then let's get to the 5 year old. Did I bring that up? No, that is where you do the same thing you accuse me of. You mischaracterize what I said. Did I ever say everything bad that happens is caused by God? Did I ever say that everything bad that happens is discipline?

No, you did not bring it up, but you should have since you are the one that said that we give Satan too much credit.

You have a pretty good talent yourself for mischaracterizing what I say, or at least it appears that way to me.

I have not mischaracterized anything you have said. I am just giving examples of situations where we do NOT give Satan too much credit in bad things that happen.

We can't blame it all on God's discipline any more than we can blame it all on satan......but then as you state in your original...."sting"...satan can't do anything God doesn't let him. You can find that in Job.


And I also believe that bad things that happen to people can be completely wrought by Satan....AND be punishment from God. Remember that I said that the removal of God's protective hand to allow Satan to wreak evil could be God's punishment. Like I said earlier, God does not have to punish, all he has to do is ALLOW us to punish ourselves.

As to your argument that wealth doesn't always come from God...I would argue that it doesn't always come from satan either......God clearly blessed David and Solomon. Are you saying that being blessed is not possable if we are being obedient followers of Christ? If you are, are you not preaching a pretty gloomy message yourself?
Then the real question, why are we discussing wealth? I don't think I ever mentioned it?


I mentioned it because I felt it necessary when you said that we give Satan too much credit for the bad things that happen on this earth. Do I think it is possible for an obedient follower of Christ to be blessed with wealth? Yes, but it is not easy nor does it often happen according to the words of Christ.

Matthew 19
23And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

24"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."


That is tough to do, so I would have to say that wealthy Christians are few and far between. I think it is possible to discern a wealthy Christian though:

Matthew 19 again
16And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

18Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;

19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

20The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?"

21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.


Show me a wealthy man who provides the bulk of their earnings to do the work of Jesus and keeps only that which is necessary for the survival of his family and I will show you a wealthy Christian. Show me a man that continually amasses riches and spends it on himself for worldly goods, and property and I will refer you to Jesus' above words.

Luke 6:20
And turning His gaze toward His disciples, He began to say, " Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

Luke 14
12And He also went on to say to the one who had invited Him, "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, otherwise they may also invite you in return and that will be your repayment.

13"But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

14and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Luke 16
19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.


There are as many wealthy Christians as there are camels that travel through the eyes of needles, and I am sure that ain't many.

watchman said...

Constance Cumbey has wriiten a new article on the latest declarations of new age leaders and their plans for the years leading up to 2012..

For those with spiritual eyes to see...this is compelling and a benchmark review of what is transpiring in our world.

SHIRLEY MCLAINES "KARMA=GEDDON"

Churchmouse said...

Here are some more 'food for thought' from Acts.

Acts 8:1 "On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria."

(This is fueled by Stephen's words when he was brought before the Sanhedrin.)

Acts 8:4 "Those who had been scattered preached the word whereever they went."

Acts 11:20, 21 "Some of them (those who had been scattered by the persecution in connection with Stephen - v. 19) ...went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus. The Lord's hand was with them, and a good number of people believed and turned to the Lord."

In chapter 11, beleivers in Jerusalem are becoming concerned that Gentiles are being brought into the church. Some confronted Peter. Acts 11:4 tells us, "Peter began and explained everything to them PERCISELY AS IT HAD HAPPENED. (emphasis mine) Acts 11:18 "Then they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God saying, "So then God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Then, a severe famine struck, and the believers living in Jerusalem were affected.

Acts 11:29 "The diciples (believers in Antioch) each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea."

By the way, do you remember who was persecuting the Jews? It was Herod Agrippa. Acts 12:3 says, "he saw this pleased the Jews." He chose to please man, not God, to further his own aspirations.

There is so much to be learned from the book of Acts. It is so, so relavent to our circumstance.

New BBC Open Forum said...

One Kentucky pastor's impression of the KBC. Check out the end where he begins, "The 'main event' of the evening.... "

watchman said...

No REPENTANCE from Willow Creek, just another Mystical Paradigm shift.

Read all about it...

MYSTICISM ON TAP FOR CREEKERS AND PALS

WishIhadknown said...

Are there any SBC churches in the Memphis area that have old fashioned worship services or do they all rock and roll like Beale Street on Saturday night?

amazed said...

NBBCOF..That Kentucky pastor is a blogger, so I think it is clear as to why he left the meeting before SG preached.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Because he's a blogger? I thought perhaps it might have something to do with SG harboring a confessed pedophile for six months, but I have no proof of that. Or maybe he knows him personally or has had dealings with him. He said he had his reasons (plural).

Mary said...

Too many people laugh off Shirley McLaine as being merely another Hollywood nutcase; and while that may be true, her religion must be taken very seriously as it is indeed real and it is now mainstream.

A very good video on the New Age can be seen HERE. It’s the story of Constance Cumby, author of The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow, and how she came to discover the New Age movement.

Mary

Mary said...

"Are there any SBC churches in the Memphis area that have old fashioned worship services or do they all rock and roll like Beale Street on Saturday night?"


For rhetorical purposes only, I would ask why you would specify SBC churches instead of asking if there are any Christian churches that have old fashioned worship services.

Are we Baptist above all else or Southern Baptist above all else? Or are we Christian above all else?

This is only put forth as food for thought. No offense intended.

Mary

WishIhadknown said...

Since the scriptures about not touching the anointed apply specifically and literally to kings, what do the touch not mine anointed people say about America's war against the "God anointed king" in the 1770's?

New BBC Open Forum said...

wish wrote:

"Are there any SBC churches in the Memphis area that have old fashioned worship services or do they all rock and roll like Beale Street on Saturday night?"

I understand Covenant Baptist in Collierville and Ellendale Baptist in Bartlett qualify. Also River Oaks Presbyterian in Germantown if you're willing to try something besides SB.

Mary said...

Kirby Woods Baptist is a nice old fashioned church where the Gospel is preached, the sheep are cared for by the pastor, and hymns are still being sung. They use a sanctuary, not a worship center, and the church property is still called the grounds, not a campus. KWB is a very comfortable and friendly place.

Mary

concernedSBCer said...

wishihadknown: Email me please.
:-)

gmommy said...

Amazed,
Why did you make that comment???
Do you honestly believe that ALL the negative about SG is of someone else's making...or do you still think it is about the music for any of us???

(NOT that we don't all appreciate music that is honoring to God and not to man)

SG did the things he did and said the things he said all by himself...
no matter how much some people would like to blame the "evil blogs" ....the things discussed are not invented out in the twilight zone....

Mary....Yeah!!!

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

"Yes, I have read what you posted. What bothers me about your post is that I infer (and I apologize if I infer wrongly) from your writings is that salvation, as you refer to it, is an off again, on again, hit or miss body of works that is necessary for the retention of your salvation. Once gained, salvation cannot be lost again. I believe you must be "born again". I do not believe that once you are born again that you can be "lost again". I know that there are nonChristians that read this blog and at the risk of sounding like Rick Warren (who I think does more harm than good in bringing souls to Christ), the bulk of your posts would force many nonbelievers to shy away from the unlimited love of God."

Thanks for your apology. You do indeed infer incorrectly. We are saved by faith and faith alone. Salvation is a work....started and completed by the Holy Spirit and none other. I believe He finishes what He starts. To say that we can accomplish any work that will result in our salvation is error. In addition to that, to say that the Holy Spirit begins a work in us and completes it without materially and fundamentally changing us, giving us a new heart eager to walk humbly before our God following His commandments and statutes is error as well. The work He begins and finishes is found in Heb 8:10-11. He writes his commandments and statutes on our heart. We are then eager to perform them. Why? Because it is the Holy Spirit that dwells within us that is performing them...

As to forcing nonbelievers away by preaching the WORD? I hope not.....(Romans 10)

A few sriptures for your review...
1 Kings 9:8-9
Jeremiah 25:29-38
Joel 2:12-17
Matthew 3:7-12
Hebrews 8:10
Hebrews 10:16-25
Hebrews 10:26-34
Romans 10:21

We have all heard once saved always saved and the excuse given for obvious failure to follow commandments and statutes is "well he never was saved".

The danger in all this is explained in Hebrews 10:26-34. The idea that some folks today tell us not to worry, we are blood bought saved christians covered by grace and mercy while overlooking sin, committing sin and even reveling in sin all the while depending on the words of a preacher preaching peace,peace is inconsistant with scripture. What they are saying is that the juice that flows through their veins and their heart is producing sin. Try getting rotten fruit out of a perfect vine. Won't happen. Can't happen. We either believe John 15 or we don't. We are either part of the vine are we are not. We are either bearing fruit or we are not.

Your rant against wealth appears to point to a problem in your heart. We keep drifting back to that. Are you envious of others wealth? That is sin as well. Do you mean to say that anyone that is wealthy won't make it through the gates? What about Abraham, Joseph, Solomon, David? What about the father that gave his son his inheritance early? Was he wealthy? He was after all a picture of who? Waht about Gaines, Charles Stanley? Are they the exceptions? Where do we draw the lines? Oh, I remember....

"Show me a wealthy man who provides the bulk of their earnings to do the work of Jesus and keeps only that which is necessary for the survival of his family and I will show you a wealthy Christian. Show me a man that continually amasses riches and spends it on himself for worldly goods, and property and I will refer you to Jesus' above words."

So according to your test, we just eliminated most of the folks we attend church with every Sunday...out go the cars, the suits, the vacations, expensive hobbies, fine dresses, good food, retirement....Wow....talking about scaring folks off...not to mention all the deacons we just lost.....

fogmachine said...

newbbc,

Thanks for your 12:22 post with the link to the KBC blogger.

This guy is acutely aware of what's going on.

The KBC and anyone else in the SBC will make huge errors in judgment if they invite Gaines to speak.

Because he has compromised the Word and the pulpit, people who continue to pretend nothing is wrong with him will continue to suffer the consequences. The KBC and the SBC don't need Steve Gaines and God certainly doesn't need the SBC to accomplish His will.

God is going to honor Truth and nothing else.

The Bellevue leadership publicly acts like nothing is wrong while 6,000 people are gone from Bellevue to other churches.

God is at work as thousands are being scattered to wonderful churches who are excited about the new Brothers and Sisters in Christ joining them.

I encourage all who are scattering to keep the focus on Christ and find the area of service Christ has in store for you.

Meanwhile, Bellevue is continuing to whither on the vine as the numbers continue to decline and the leaderhip continues to walk around pretending all is well.

When the money runs out, Steve Gaines will leave. He will be gone and the once great Body of Believers called Bellevue will have been scattered and the ruins will be something we don't recognize.

gmommy said...

fogmachine,
I think what you say seems right and reasonable but lets face it...not much has made sense or been right where BBC is concerned for the last few years.

I think the leadership of BBC are regrouping and WILL fill those empty seats and probably the offering plates too.
Doesn't mean it will be God honoring....God sees the heart of those in control.
BUT to conclude the people and money lost by so many leaving will prevent the leadership from accomplishing their goals...for a time anyway....may be unwise. These are slick people with an agenda and a marketing plan!!

God sees their hearts...no matter what they say or do.

gmommy said...

BTW....there is a minister ON STAFF that,I believe,
(only God knows for sure)
truly cares about the scattered sheep...or we the BBC refugees.

I wouldn't dare give his name on our blog....(and no point in checking the call records because he didn't call me from a BBC phone)

His kindness and honesty was very refreshing for me right before some recent surgery...and yes....the ministers ARE encouraged NOT to read this blog.

just sharing.....

imaresistor said...

Fogmachine...

Exactly! I appreciate what Paul Washer calls the apostate churches...attics for bats. These false teachers have taken these fine buildings which housed the Body of Christ at one time and turned them into attics for bats.

My former is only a shadow of what it was. How sad.

fogmachine said...

gmommy,

It's over for Bellevue as we ever knew it. The leadership is living a fantasy because their pride is so great. I know staff hanging on because the money is too good to walk away from and they've talked themselves into believing there's nowhere to go. How sad for ministers to stay in a situation because of fear of what might happen tomorrow. What happened to trusting God instead of man?

The current leadership won't fill the seats with Steve Gaines behind the pulpit. Others around the country can fill seats by having dynamic speakers preach something other than the Word. People are drawn to this type of message of feeling good about yourself. You can figure out those on tv that fill this description and have huge money flowing into their coffers.

Steve Gaines is not a dynamic speaker.

He has his mind on personal gain and it comes out in his daily living and his sermons. Unfortunately, many inside the SBC are going down the same road that will lead to destruction. Money has ruined many a man. Few can handle it properly. It's fascinating that the Scriptures include over 2,000 verses that are dealing with our relationship with money.

Bellevue will also not escape from sinking unless they repent and change the course they are on. The layleaders who run Bellevue know money. As the money continues to dry up, Steve Gaines will be gone but things will not change because the leadership will still be hanging on to whatever it is they are not letting go of.

The bright side is that there are wonderful pastors out there who love the Word, preach the Word, and love their sheep. They are out there and God is going to grow His church by the preaching of the Word.

God is in control. I am thankful that his Truths never change and that He is not surprised by anything that happens.

Astounded said...

ezekiel said...

We are saved by faith and faith alone. Salvation is a work....started and completed by the Holy Spirit and none other. I believe He finishes what He starts. To say that we can accomplish any work that will result in our salvation is error. In addition to that, to say that the Holy Spirit begins a work in us and completes it without materially and fundamentally changing us, giving us a new heart eager to walk humbly before our God following His commandments and statutes is error as well. The work He begins and finishes is found in Heb 8:10-11. He writes his commandments and statutes on our heart. We are then eager to perform them. Why? Because it is the Holy Spirit that dwells within us that is performing them...

And...

The danger in all this is explained in Hebrews 10:26-34. The idea that some folks today tell us not to worry, we are blood bought saved christians covered by grace and mercy while overlooking sin, committing sin and even reveling in sin all the while depending on the words of a preacher preaching peace,peace is inconsistant with scripture. What they are saying is that the juice that flows through their veins and their heart is producing sin. Try getting rotten fruit out of a perfect vine. Won't happen. Can't happen. We either believe John 15 or we don't. We are either part of the vine are we are not. We are either bearing fruit or we are not.

Your 1st statement above is right on target. No one is saved without the invitation of the Holy Spirit into their heart. By that invitation, the consequent conviction of one's sins, and the acceptance of Jesus Christ to forgive those sins, one becomes a child of God.

In your second statement you quote John 15. In order to understand John 15 you must first understand John 14.

1"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

3"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

4"And you know the way where I am going."

5Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?"

6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Oneness with the Father
7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
8Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

10"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

11"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

12"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

13"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14"If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.


18"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

19"After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.

20"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

21"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

22Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?"

23Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

24"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

25"These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.

26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

27"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

28"You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you ' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

29"Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe.

30"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;

31but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me Get up, let us go from here.


In verse 12 Jesus clearly states that if you are a believer, you will do His works.

In verse 16 He promises us that the Holy Spirit will be with us to guide us.

Jesus again states in verse 23 that if one loves Him, they will keep His word. It is clear that, while salvation comes from belief and faith in Jesus, Jesus says that believers will do His works, keep His word, and follow His (that is Jessus') commandments. He did not say follow the Mosiaic law or follow the Ten Commandments, He said follow MY commandments.

Jesus promises again in verse 26 that, in His absense from this Earth, that the Father will send the Holy Spirit to dwell within us, to teach us, and to constantly remind us that we are to keep Jesus' commandments.

Now, understanding John 14 brings Chapter 15 into perfect perspective. Jesus is the vine.

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

In John 15:5 Jesus says that the branches are those that abide in Him.

I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

In John 15:6 He states:

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."

Those that abide in Jesus are, by the words of Jesus in John 14, those that have the Holy Spirit abiding in themselves.

Through careful reading of John 15 you will see also that the Father is the vinedresser. The only pruning that is spoken about by Jesus is in verse 2.

"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Read carefully. God prunes the branches that bear fruit so that they may bear more fruit. Jesus never says that God lops off the entire branch. God prunes the sin of the believer so that he (the branch) will not die of the infection of sin. Other branches have already died and fallen off the vine. God removes these branches and casts them off. In other words, these dead branches are separated from the presence of the vine, just as the lost are cast away from Jesus and the healthy branches (believers). Without taking John 14 into perspective, it is easy to make the mistake of believing that John 15 speaks of God removing believers that do not keep Jesus' commandments. As we see in Chapter 14, to abide in Christ, we must have the Holy Spirit abide in us. In John 14:16 Jesus that the Helper (the Holy Spirit) will be with you forever.

In John 3:14-18, Jesus says:

14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


These verses are Jesus' oath to us that if we believe in Him, we will have eternal life. So, combined with John 14 we see that if we believe in Jesus AND keep His commandments, we will be rescued from our sins and, according to John 3, will abide in Him for eternity.

John 3:18 explains further Jesus' analogy of the vine and the branches. If we do not believe in Jesus, we, as branches wither and die. As verse Jonh 3:18 says, we are not cut off, we are ALREADY DEAD! Those dead branches are carried away AFTER they die and have fallen off the vine, and eternally separated from the vine.

Astounded said...

ezekiel said...

Your rant against wealth appears to point to a problem in your heart.

Please don't shoot the messenger. If you will go back and read my post you will see that all I did was quote Jesus. I do not consider citing scripture as ranting.

We keep drifting back to that. Are you envious of others wealth?

Far from it. If anything, I struggle with it because I am not sure I spend the money I make wisely. Jesus tells us that all we have belongs to God. I'm jsut a caretaker. I covet nothing of anyone else. I feel that I have been "blessed" with too much as it is.


That is sin as well.

At least we agree that not giving to God that which is His is also a sin.

Do you mean to say that anyone that is wealthy won't make it through the gates?

What does Jesus say?

What about Abraham, Joseph, Solomon, David? What about the father that gave his son his inheritance early? Was he wealthy? He was after all a picture of who? Waht about Gaines, Charles Stanley? Are they the exceptions? Where do we draw the lines?

Do you dispute Jesus' words? I think you need to take this argument up with Him. Like I said, I just quoted the scripture. Wa that not what accused me of not doing in my earlier posts? No scriptural support?

So according to your test, we just eliminated most of the folks we attend church with every Sunday...out go the cars, the suits, the vacations, expensive hobbies, fine dresses, good food, retirement....Wow....talking about scaring folks off...not to mention all the deacons we just lost.....

May be. Like I said, I'm just the messenger.

amazed said...

NBBCOF..My how the written word is not always clear as to its meaning. When I said the Kentucky pastor was a blogger, I meant that he already knew all about SG from reading about him from this site and others. Thank GOD for a place that shines light into dark places.

Churchmouse said...

fogmachine said:
God is in control. I am thankful that his Truths never change and that He is not surprised by anything that happens.

churchmouse comments:

Well said, fogmachine. What a comfort those words are. Our efforts to save BBC appear to have been in vain. Yet, I think we were called to proclaim the Truth.

This must be part of His plan. Wolves in sheep's clothing have defiled His bride. He may have something special planned.

Makes old churchmouse watchful, careful, prayerful...

imaresistor said...

Churchmouse said, " Our efforts to save BBC appear to have been in vain. Yet, I think we were called to proclaim the Truth."

I agree that we were called to proclaim the Truth. And I know only too well how you feel that our efforts to salvage a church failed, although we are speaking of two different churches...however, the fat lady has not sung yet. Has she?

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

Jesus again states in verse 23 that if one loves Him, they will keep His word. It is clear that, while salvation comes from belief and faith in Jesus, Jesus says that believers will do His works, keep His word, and follow His (that is Jessus') commandments. He did not say follow the Mosiaic law or follow the Ten Commandments, He said follow MY commandments.

You are not saying that the 10 commandments weren't His are you?

Matthew 22:37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I think what you are saying is...

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Notice the emphasis on believe and heart. There appears to be distinction between head belief and heart belief......

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, 2 who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God's house. 3 For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. 4 (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) 5 Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, 6 but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope. 7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
Today, if you hear his voice,
8
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,

on the day of testing in the wilderness,
9
where your fathers put me to the test

and saw my works 10 for forty years.

Therefore I was provoked with that generation,

and said, They always go astray in their heart;

they have not known my ways.
11
As I swore in my wrath,

They shall not enter my rest.
12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called today, that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said,
Today, if you hear his voice,

do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.
16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

Now getting back to the old "once saved always saved".....if we rebell against God and refuse to follow His commandments......are we saved?

Or are we really saved because we believe in our head.....and live like we want to? (Sarcasm)

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

Do you dispute Jesus' words? I think you need to take this argument up with Him. Like I said, I just quoted the scripture. Wa that not what accused me of not doing in my earlier posts? No scriptural support?

Now you know that I don't. I do however probably have a broader view of what His WORD is. If we believe the Bible is inspired and innerant....then we have to believe it is all Jesus's words don't we?

In 1 Kings 10 we see the queen of Sheba visiting Solomon, asking of his wisdom and paying tribute. In return, Solomon gives her whatever she desires but doesn't fail to accept what she offers. Mathew Henry's commentary has an interesting perspective here. You may want to check it out. Basically the point is that we can't out give God. Through our gifts to God, much like Sheba's gift to Solomon, God always has the ability to give back more than we give.

That is something that WE struggle with but I think make too complicated. If we go through life meeting the needs of the people that He brings into our sphere of contact we do His will. That is more in line with the parable of the 1,2,5 tallents and the 2 commandments than anything else. It is all His in the first place. If we use what He provides, to meet the need of the people he brings us into contact with then.....

Job was rich and lost everything. Then had it restored. Did this have anthing to do with his righteousness? I don't think we control what we have anywhere close to what we think we do. Wealth in some cases can be just another part of the rod of correction. More a burden than a blessing.

Ec 9:Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all.

Like Solomon, I believe the mistake is thinking we control it, we made it and we decide how to use it. All that is vanity.....

Psalms 37: 4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

We need to be careful what we ask for lest it become a snare in front of the gate.

"There shall be no other god before me" and "love your neighbor as yourslf" really does sum it all up.

Churchmouse said...

Ima said,
...the fat lady has not sung yet. Has she?

churchmouse replies,
No, Mam! She has definately not sung.

Lin said...

Asounded and Ez,

How would this teaching fit into your discussion? (in context)

2 Corin 3

5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

imaresistor said...

Thanksgiving...how we could go on with this word forever. Why are we thankful? What have we to be thankful for? One answer...that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

My prayer is that all of you dear people have a nice holiday tomorrow. And may we remember and pray for those around the world who are less fortunate that us...and ask God's blessings on them. Most importantly, that those without Christ will find Him.

Ima

gmommy said...

Hey amazed,
So sorry I misuunderstood your comment!!:)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hint: Profiles must be made visible if you want to post comments.

sickofthelies said...

This Thanksgiving, I am thankful that God has allowed me to see the truth.

Let's don't forget to pray for our brothers and sisters who are still being led astray. Pray that they will receive the discernment to tell the difference between a wolf and a sheep.

Lily said...

I echo the post of SOTL, and add a special thank you to my blog buds who uplift and edify. Happy Thanksgiving. To Him be the glory!

ezekiel said...

lin,

It fits very nicely. In fact, I ran across a daily devotional from Spurgeon while trying to customize macsword with an add on a few minutes ago.... dated Nov 21. AM. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

"Grieve not the Holy Spirit." --Ephesians 4:30 All that the believer has must come from Christ, but it comes solely through the channel of the Spirit of grace. Moreover, as all blessings thus flow to you through the Holy Spirit, so also no good thing can come out of you in holy thought, devout worship, or gracious act, apart from the sanctifying operation of the same Spirit. Even if the good seed be sown in you, yet it lies dormant except He worketh in you to will and to do of His own good pleasure. Do you desire to speak for Jesus--how can you unless the Holy Ghost touch your tongue? Do you desire to pray? Alas! what dull work it is unless the Spirit maketh intercession for you! Do you desire to subdue sin? Would you be holy? Would you imitate your Master? Do you desire to rise to superlative heights of spirituality? Are you wanting to be made like the angels of God, full of zeal and ardour for the Master's cause? You cannot without the Spirit--"Without me ye can do nothing." O branch of the vine, thou canst have no fruit without the sap! O child of God, thou hast no life within thee apart from the life which God gives thee through His Spirit! Then let us not grieve Him or provoke Him to anger by our sin. Let us not quench Him in one of His faintest motions in our soul; let us foster every suggestion, and be ready to obey every prompting. If the Holy Spirit be indeed so mighty, let us attempt nothing without Him; let us begin no project, and carry on no enterprise, and conclude no transaction, without imploring His blessing. Let us do Him the due homage of feeling our entire weakness apart from Him, and then depending alone upon Him, having this for our prayer, "Open Thou my heart and my whole being to Thine incoming, and uphold me with Thy free Spirit when I shall have received that Spirit in my inward parts."

gmommy said...

I'm thankful that even without a church home I have members of the body who care, minister, and encourage me ....on a day to day basis and in time of need and illness.

One in particular makes a mean rotel chicken casserole!! :)

I have been accepted, loved, prayed for, taught, and lifted up while wounded and fragile, ugly and angry, joyful and silly.

We stood together as the minority as if our hands were joined. Better...our hearts were!

I am very thankful for my friends ...the truth seekers.

May we continue to pray for each other and nurture our bond of love for the Lord, His Word, and each other!!!
I love you all....thank you for being there.
Bro R used to say...if you don't have family...we will be your family.
you have been....and we didn't have to go to the same church building to be the church to each other.

Even DR Looney came to my defense once....bless him...where ever he is!!:)

Happy Thanksgiving!!!!

gmommy said...

EZ,
Very cool devotion.....thank you!

gmommy said...

SWEET CAKES!!
I have called 2 different numbers I have written down for you...one was BOO BOO...don't think that's right...
call me... home or cell!!!!
If you lost my number...screen is up or Nass and C SBCer have them.

oc said...

Happy Thanksgiving ya'll.

Just sayin'. :)

Astounded said...

ezekiel said...

You are not saying that the 10 commandments weren't His are you?


Yes, the Ten Commandments are of Him but not written to follow.

Galations 5
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.


Following the Old Testament law is not a way to salvation. It wasn't in the OT, it was not in the NT, and it is not today.

3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.

9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.

11But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.

12I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.

13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "(AB)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.


Romans 6
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!


Romans 7
1Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.

3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.


7What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;

11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

12So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.



Jesus gave us the OT law in order for us to recognize sin. He never gave us the law expecting us to obey it. He gave it to us in order to show us that we CANNOT obey it because of our inherent sin. By recognizing our sin through the law, We prepare our hearts to acceptance of the Holy Spirit which leads us to the conviction of our sins, which leads us to the only path to God, acceptance of Jesus as our savior.

Astounded said...

We should take a closer look at Romans 7:

8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;

11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.


Is this not an argument supporting the theory many have for the Age of Accountibility? Paul says that once we become aware of sin through the law, the result is death. What about the time before we become aware of the law and thus aware of sin?

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

Read carefully. God prunes the branches that bear fruit so that they may bear more fruit. Jesus never says that God lops off the entire branch. God prunes the sin of the believer so that he (the branch) will not die of the infection of sin. Other branches have already died and fallen off the vine. God removes these branches and casts them off.


1)Actually He does. Red letter.

John 15:2 Every branch of mine that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

He even orders it here.

Jer 5:10

Go up through her vine rows and destroy,

but make not a full end;

strip away her branches,

for they are not the Lord's.

Matthew Henry and McArtur's commentaries are consistent with this scripture as well. The branches cut off appear to be apostate, (Matt Henry even uses backslidden) or hypocritical branches never bearing fruit. Claiming to be part of the vine but never bearing fruit. The Father is indeed tending the vine, some branches He prunes, some He cuts off and throws in the fire.

So it is pretty obvious that the Father is cutting off some that profess to believe as well as trim sin off believers to make them more fruitful.

So really when one teaches that the pruning is for the benefit of the branch....the benefit to the vine is neglected. That is a pretty good example of man centered worship.

In other words, these dead branches are separated from the presence of the vine, just as the lost are cast away from Jesus and the healthy branches (believers). Without taking John 14 into perspective, it is easy to make the mistake of believing that John 15 speaks of God removing believers that do not keep Jesus' commandments. As we see in Chapter 14, to abide in Christ, we must have the Holy Spirit abide in us. In John 14:16 Jesus that the Helper (the Holy Spirit) will be with you forever.

As we have discussed previously, He in fact does prune the branches that don't follow His commandments. If the branch were alive it would be bearing fruit....following His commandments.

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

"Yes, the Ten Commandments are of Him but not written to follow."

Then why go to all the trouble?

Heb 8:10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel

after those days, declares the Lord:

I will put my laws into their minds,

and write them on their hearts,

and I will be their God,

and they shall be my people.

Romans 7 is not on an island, it requires context of the following scripture. Keep reading.

The nation of Israel could not do the law and therefore could not obtain righteousness by performing it. We can't either. Our righteousness comes through faith.

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Matthew 22:37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Really it all boils down to the love of Jesus. The only way a person can get that kind of love is if the Holy Spirit dwells within them. If He does, the love that flows from them fulfills the law.

It helps me to look at it like this.....I can't save myself by following the commandments. Israel couldn't, I can't either. When Christ died on the cross, he fulfilled the law (remember, He was perfect). Then the Holy Spirit was sent to dwell within me, you, all believers hearts...It is only natural that His love will flow from me and...I will fulfill the law...

Another way to look at it is that if I walk by the spirit that is within me.....I fulfill the law..

Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Astounded said...

ezekiel said...


1)Actually He does. Red letter.

John 15:2 Every branch of mine that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.


Sorry, but you are mistaken here. Jesus CLEARLY differentiates between the pruning and the taking away. If there were not a difference He would not have made the differentiation. As I said earlier, if you read John 15 in context with John 14 and John 3 the differentiation becomes clear.

He even orders it here.

Jer 5:10

Go up through her vine rows and destroy,

but make not a full end;

strip away her branches,

for they are not the Lord's.


Not even in context with John 15. Jeremiah 5 refers to the punishment of Jerusalem and Judah for their Godlessness.

Matthew Henry and McArtur's commentaries are consistent with this scripture as well. The branches cut off appear to be apostate, (Matt Henry even uses backslidden) or hypocritical branches never bearing fruit. Claiming to be part of the vine but never bearing fruit. The Father is indeed tending the vine, some branches He prunes, some He cuts off and throws in the fire.

Again, Jesus NEVER says that God prunes an entire branch in John 15. He collects them and casts them in the fire. Again, it is easily understood in context with John 14 and John 3.

I will not comment on MacArthur since I totally discount him because of his Calvinist views. And if Matt Henry believes that backsliders are removed from the body of Christ, his teachings are to be discounted also as heretical.

So it is pretty obvious that the Father is cutting off some that profess to believe as well as trim sin off believers to make them more fruitful.

Those that only "profess" to believe are not even attached to the vine once they aware of the law. I do agree that God does prune the sin from the believers to make them more fruitful. I believe I said that already.

So really when one teaches that the pruning is for the benefit of the branch....the benefit to the vine is neglected. That is a pretty good example of man centered worship.

What???? I thought you said that the branch is part of the vine. So if the branch benefits, how is the vine neglected? Does not the turning away from sin in our lives glorify Jesus. So, how is it man centered worship for me to aspire to follow Jesus' commandments and better myself in the Lord's eyes. But then again if you aspire to MacArthur's views of unconditional election, limited atonement and irrestible grace, I understand how you can make the above statement.

As we have discussed previously, He in fact does prune the branches that don't follow His commandments. If the branch were alive it would be bearing fruit....following His commandments.

If the branch is not alive, it withers and dies, thus falling off the vine. I thought my earlier post from Paul (Romans 7) would clear that up. Through the law we become aware of sin and at that time die. Without the Holy Spirit in our lives and the acceptance of God's grace, we, as a branch, wither and die and fall from the vine. God collects these dead vines and casts them in the fire thus separating the nonbelieves from Himself.

Astounded said...

Ezekiel said...

Astounded,

"Yes, the Ten Commandments are of Him but not written to follow."

Then why go to all the trouble?

Heb 8:10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel

after those days, declares the Lord:

I will put my laws into their minds,

and write them on their hearts,

and I will be their God,

and they shall be my people.

Romans 7 is not on an island, it requires context of the following scripture. Keep reading.

The nation of Israel could not do the law and therefore could not obtain righteousness by performing it. We can't either. Our righteousness comes through faith.

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Matthew 22:37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Really it all boils down to the love of Jesus. The only way a person can get that kind of love is if the Holy Spirit dwells within them. If He does, the love that flows from them fulfills the law.

It helps me to look at it like this.....I can't save myself by following the commandments. Israel couldn't, I can't either. When Christ died on the cross, he fulfilled the law (remember, He was perfect). Then the Holy Spirit was sent to dwell within me, you, all believers hearts...It is only natural that His love will flow from me and...I will fulfill the law...

Another way to look at it is that if I walk by the spirit that is within me.....I fulfill the law..

Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.


Why do you attempt to nullify one part of the scripture by citing another part. I do not understand how anything you have posted above places Romans 7 in some other context. Paul states that the law was provided to show how inadequate man will be in following. Even the scripture you quote above support Paul's assertion. And according to Paul you CANNOT even hope to fulfill the law. Talk about man centered worship....

Astounded said...

ezekiel said...

Another way to look at it is that if I walk by the spirit that is within me.....I fulfill the law..

By the way, you are the first person I have ever met in my long lifetime that professes belief in Jesus Christ AND thinks that he can fulfill the law. That, my friend is very dangerous thinking. If just one person could fulfill the law, Jesus came to this earth and died for nothing.

concernedSBCer said...

Happy Thanksgiving to those on the blog who inspire me, challenge me, and encourage me. I'm thankful for you!

Happy Birthday to SOTL........may it be your best ever!!!

STOPTHEMADNESS said...

HAPPY THANKSGIVING! Many of us will be thankful for different things this year than we were the last...Much has happened. I am thankful that this holiday season is not shrouded in secrets like the one before. No Rude Awakenings await us. There is peace, no media attention, and many sweet people have found church homes where they are truly welcome. I am thankful for those who have stayed behind at BBC, without judging or blaming those who could not.
May we all realize there is but one kingdom, &
respect the choices God leads each of us to make.Even as we bow our heads with family today to give thanks unto God, may everyone feel a softening in their hearts for one another.
I am thankful that we EVER sat under the teachings of Dr. Adrian and that our kids learned from Mrs. Joyce, as they came to know Jesus.I really mean that. As to the people who need to speak ill of ANYONE in the ROGERS FAMILY, I am THANKFUL we can calm down and trust this to God, when we remember that Mrs. Rogers preserved her late husbands very words:
"THE TRUEST THING ABOUT ME IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT ME." APR

Mary said...

Happy Thanksgiving to ALL!

From today's LWF:

November 22

BIBLE MEDITATION:
“Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Ephesians 5:20

DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT:
There are four types of people. There are those who are constantly complaining and grumbling. Have you met any of these folks? I mean, they can brighten up a room just by leaving it. That’s the lowest level. Then there are others who live lives of ingratitude. They don’t complain, but they never thank God for His obvious blessings. That’s a little better, but not much better. Then there are people who thank God for obvious blessings. When something good happens, they’re grateful. That’s a better level. But the highest level is to be grateful for all things at all times. That is the secret of a happy and productive life.

ACTION POINT:
Bow before the Lord and begin to think about difficult circumstances you’re facing. Now, thank Him for each one.

Churchmouse said...

HAPPY THANKSGIVING, pilgrims!

I am thankful for YOU, today and always.

churchmouse

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

By the way, you are the first person I have ever met in my long lifetime that professes belief in Jesus Christ AND thinks that he can fulfill the law. That, my friend is very dangerous thinking. If just one person could fulfill the law, Jesus came to this earth and died for nothing.

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Do you really believe that you have never met anyone walking in the spirit?

By the way....Happy Thanksgiving!

I love you!

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

Why do you attempt to nullify one part of the scripture by citing another part. I do not understand how anything you have posted above places Romans 7 in some other context. Paul states that the law was provided to show how inadequate man will be in following. Even the scripture you quote above support Paul's assertion. And according to Paul you CANNOT even hope to fulfill the law. Talk about man centered worship....

I am not nullifying anything. I suggest you read through Romans a few more times. If you pull 7 out of 6-10, I can see why you struggle with it. Try printing it out and reading without the chapter and verse numbers....

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Do you see the error in

And according to Paul you CANNOT even hope to fulfill the law. Talk about man centered worship.. Now?

Lin said...

"Do you desire to speak for Jesus--how can you unless the Holy Ghost touch your tongue? Do you desire to pray? Alas! what dull work it is unless the Spirit maketh intercession for you! Do you desire to subdue sin? Would you be holy? Would you imitate your Master? Do you desire to rise to superlative heights of spirituality? Are you wanting to be made like the angels of God, full of zeal and ardour for the Master's cause? You cannot without the Spirit--"Without me ye can do nothing."

Thanks for sharing, Ez. That part was worth reading again.

Lin said...

"And if Matt Henry believes that backsliders are removed from the body of Christ, his teachings are to be discounted also as heretical."

Astounded, Do you believe that a professing Christian can be carnal, not bear fruit and be currently saved?

Lin said...

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

My mom used to say this all the time.

I love you all, too. My dear brothers and sisters.

Have you ever thought of the believers who had never met but read the letters aloud written to them by the Apostles? They knew the other churches loved them. They sent each other greetings. They took up offerings to help those in need in other cities. And most of them never met each other until they went to Glory.

I am thankful today for blogs.

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

Branches cut off

AND

Cut off not Fall off

He broke off Israel......and grafted the Gentiles in....

Romans 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life. 4 But what is God's reply to him? I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal. 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,
God gave them a spirit of stupor,

eyes that would not see

and ears that would not hear,

down to this very day.
9 And David says,
Let their table become a snare and a trap,

a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,

and bend their backs forever.
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. *************21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.************* 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. 25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
The Deliverer will come from Zion,

he will banish ungodliness from Jacob;
27
and this will be my covenant with them

when I take away their sins.
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34
For who has known the mind of the Lord,

or who has been his counselor?
35
Or who has given a gift to him

that he might be repaid?
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

You may want to add intervarsity press commentary to your list of heretics.....

They say He cuts them off too

imaresistor said...

Churchmouse...

Of all things...I was reminded of John Wayne when reading your post! What a hoot!!!

Astounded said...

ezekiel said...

I am not nullifying anything. I suggest you read through Romans a few more times. If you pull 7 out of 6-10, I can see why you struggle with it. Try printing it out and reading without the chapter and verse numbers....

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Again, you take a piece of scripture and use it completely out of context with my post, not to mention taking it out of context with the verses directly preceeding Romans 8;4. I direct you to the same chapter, from the beginning.

Romans 4
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,


4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Only Jesus could fufill the Law of Moses. He did this by living a sinless life. We fulfill the Law in a completely different manner. As I quoted earlier, the Law of Moses was established to show it is impossible for a mere human to follow it. The law was established as a way to God, one that becomes impossible because of our sins. Therefore, the law was established to make us aware of the sin that precludes us from following the law. The law is God's tool for making us aware of sin. We also become aware that, because of our sin, we have no possible way of reaching residence with God. So, God gave us another way to Him. He came to earth as a perfect, sinless human being who lived a lifetime without sinning, thus fulfilling the law. He then payed for the sins of the world by allowing himself to die. What is death? It is the payment for sin. But Jesus did not sin so why did He die? Well, he died for somebody's sin. That would be anyone who accepts Jesus's surrogate sacrifice for his own sin. So, by a stretch, the only way we fulfill the law is by becoming aware of sin and our impending doom. We fulfill the purpose of the law since the law was given to us to be used as a tool for our own recognition of our inabilities to reach God. And since that was the sole reason of God giving us the law, I guess we fulfill it's purpose. You have to read verses 1-3 in order to understand verse 4.

Astounded said...

ezekiel said

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

So, you are capable of doing this 24 hours a day, for the rest of your life without failing even once? Yes you should strive to do this as a child of God but because of my sinful nature I know at one time or another I will slip and thus I have failed to fulfill the law. Praise Jesus that He did not fail, even once. Then He died anyway, for those times when I failed through sin to fulfill the law that He fulfilled.

Since you are capable of fulfilling this law I will admit that you are much more righteous and holy than I. I have yet to reach a level of only thoughts of love in totality and living sinlessly.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I didn't realize it was a contest.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving!

A Thanksgiving Wish

'Twas the night of Thanksgiving, but I just couldn't sleep.
I tried counting backwards, I tried counting sheep. (Heh heh)
The leftovers beckoned - the dark meat and white,
But I fought the temptation with all of my might.

Tossing and turning with anticipation,
The thought of a snack became infatuation.
So I raced to the kitchen, flung open the door,
And gazed at the fridge, full of
goodies galore.

I gobbled up turkey and leftover potatoes,
Pickles and carrots, beans, and tomatoes.
I felt myself swelling so plump and so round,
'Til all of a sudden, I rose off the ground.
I crashed through the ceiling,
floating into the sky
With a mouthful of pudding and a handful of pie,
But I managed to yell as I soared past the trees...
"Happy eating to all; pass the cranberries, please!"

May your stuffing be tasty, may your turkey be plump.
May your potatoes 'n gravy have nary a lump.
May your yams be delicious and your pies take the prize.
And may your Thanksgiving dinner stay off of your thighs!

ezekiel said...

Astounded,


Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

But isn’t that the glorious message of the Risen Christ? He came to deliver us from sin?

1 John 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12 We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. 17 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth. 19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

Lynn said...

The Bellevue Marketing Machine is at it again...

Coming to the Commercial Appeal Sunday is a piece about Bellevue's recent trip to India.yre

Churchmouse said...

EAT A ROLL WITH IT, BABY
--apologies to Steve Winwood

When your plate’s too full, eat a roll with it, baby
Don't stop now and lose your paunch, oh no, baby
Jennie Craig knocking on your door
I'll tell her you ain't here no more
Dive into it, eat a roll with it, baby
Guilt will come and then slip away,
Don’t let guilt spoil your holiday!

Eat a roll with it, baby
Come on and eat, just eat a roll with it, baby
Don’t miss a treat, eat a roll with it, baby
Jump in and eat a roll with it, baby

That pumpkin pecan pie is good as money
I swear by whipped cream, sweet as honey
People think you're piggin’ out
You show them what it's all about
You can eat it all, AND eat a roll with it, baby
When your conscience turns its back on you
Grab yourself a turkey leg or two.

You just eat a roll with it, baby,
You just eat a roll with it, baby
Butter up; eat a roll with it, baby
Don’t miss the sweets, just eat a roll with it, baby

Now there'll be a day when your jeans don’t fit, baby
You'll hear the music play, but you don’t look so swift, baby
You'll leave the potatoes and gravy way behind
Nothing but calories on your mind
Just exercise and, roll with it, baby
Today, you can eat that second slice
It's just a step up to the left over pies.
The mall has pants for bigger thighs
You just roll with it, baby
Don’t miss your treat, just roll with it, baby
Come on and just roll with it, baby

Lynn said...

Ya know...Weird Al Yankovich once had a Michael Jackson parody called "Eat It". lol

New BBC Open Forum said...

I ate too much turkey, I ate too much corn,
I ate too much pudding and pie.
I'm stuffed up with muffins and too much stuffin'
I'm probably going to die.

I piled up my plate and I ate and I ate.
But I wish I had known when to stop,
For I'm so crammed with yams, sauces, gravies, and jams
That my buttons are starting to pop!

I'm full of tomatoes and french fried potatoes
My stomach is swollen and sore,
But there's still some dessert so I guess it won't hurt if
I eat just a little bit more!

Author unknown

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

! Peter 2:4And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,
5you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

6For this is contained in Scripture:
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

7This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
"THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"

8and,
"A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE";
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

9But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

10for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.

11Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

12Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Astounded? I believe it's your turn.

padroc said...

Blessings ALL!

May I make a suggestion? Ezekiel and Astounded.... If I grasp what you’re discussing…. the answer to both of your scriptural takes is "yes". The resolution for this wonderfully instructive discussion may be rapped up in a message preached by Adrian Rogers titled "Possessing your Possessions".

I believe that the law is fulfilled in me not as a result of my efforts or accomplishments but rather as a result of Christ's perfect accomplishments in my stead. Very much like the fact that my flesh will remain unredeemed in this realm, while at the same time, from God's point of view I am positionally perfected in Christ. Perfection may not be our willing view we have of ourselves or the prevailing view of other men, but God says that positionally each one saved is perfect even as He is perfect. This fact is the essence of the cross. That which is of me is as dung while that which is of Christ is perfection. What you and I most quickly recognize in each other is not the others perfection is it? If I could see others as God sees others (and to some degree I do) and I could not look upon iniquity and all I saw was the perfect Christ (on whom God had already poured out His wrath) in your place.... do you begin to see the imponderable solution to our inherent imperfection which you two have been "jousting" about? It is Christ. I'm doing such a bad job of putting this down. Please find AR's message.

As a lost person I was both positionally and practically condemned as a result of my unbelief. As a saved person I am positionally perfected in Christ yet totally imperfect in my flesh. If I understand the scriptures, the only resemblance to perfection you will see in me will be as a result of my own personal obedience to the word of God and any resulting disciplines in my life. And wouldn't you know how quick we are to recognize in each other those moments where we are undisciplined between obedience’s.

Praise God one day He promises to perfect my flesh too! AND... Oh! Glory to God ! He will do the same for all His children in Christ! AND then when you see me you will see and experience only the perfection of Christ. Until then I will thank God that He has accomplished the fulfillment of all the law in me possitionally in Christ.

Now that's a WOW! What incredible thanksgiving is ours to our God for this!

Happy Thanksgiving all,

Padroc

ezekiel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lin said...

Ez, On point number 2 we have churches full of people who are told if they walk an ailse, say a prayer they are saved forever. They are baseing their salvation on a work...walking the ailse...saying a prayer and baptism.

But, they are rarely told about regeneration or sanctification.

They are sent to some 'what we believe' class and told to read scripture, pray, come to church, get involved in a group and tithe.

But they are rarely told that if their relationship with sin has not drastically changed they may not in fact be saved. Nor are they told that tithing is not to be found in the NT as a command. Giving is.

They are told that 'sinners sin' and well... we are forgiven, no big deal, no one is perfect, that is why Christ went to the Cross.

A few verses out of 1 John maY be quoted but rarely the subsequent verses that paint a fuller picture of the meaning.

They are rarely told that without Holiness no one will see God. Or that if they sin KNOWING the truth then there has been no sacrifice. (Hebrews 10)

Are they ever told that if they are not hungering and thirsting for the Word, prayer and Worship that there may be a problem?

They are told that they cannot lose their salvation once saved... no matter what.

They are rarely told that if they are truly saved, the Lord will not let them go off the narrow road too far and that He disciplines those who are His.

Basically, I believe that people have been taught that the process of sanctification is a work. They do not understand enough to know that when we are regenerated we are changed so totally that we cannot but be broken over any sins as we are growing in Holiness.

There is a lot of malpractice out there.

Here are 2 very different situations:

Yesterday, a wealthy middle aged professing Christian, very involved in church, was telling me how much God has blessed him. He said he has had NO tragedies in his life. He is wealthy and all his family is healthy. That his entire life has been smooth and continually prosperous. He does not know why the Lord has chosen to bless him so much.

All I could think of while he was telling me all this was that he had NO reason to depend on God for anything or any compelling reason to draw closer to Him. And, I was thinking that perhaps, I don't know, but perhaps he should be concerned that he has NEVER been disciplined at all.

Instead of envying him...I went away quite concerned for him.

On the other hand, my best friend, who is fairly young and quite healthy, has been diagnosed with cancer. It was a shock and she was in surgery a day later and they found more cancer.

She is the most devoted Christian I know. She is continually growing in Holiness. Both of her adult chidlren are sold out to Christ.

And while she is scared, her stance is that now she can REALLY live out her faith. Her concern is to Glorify God in the midst of this no matter what. She does NOT love the World at all and is ready to go home if it be His Will. She loves the Lord more than herself or her family. She spends countless hours studing and praying over the Word and has for years. She radiates with the love of Christ in her.

Both of these situations I have witnessed in the span of 5 days.

So, what are we to surmise from this? What is going on?

ezekiel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lynn said...

And now for a follow up on the situation at Oral Roberts University....


Richard Roberts has Resigned.

President of Oral Roberts University Resigns

ezekiel said...

Padroc,
Let me try to summarize and explain my position and fears.

Nass and everyone else, thanks for your patience!

My fear is that we repeat the history of Israel, with the same apocalyptic results. We are told that even the elect may be deceived and risk eternity in Hell. So how is the deceiver going to do that? Are the scriptural differences going to be glaring or subtle? Are the doctrinal differences going to be clear or muddied? How does the harlot church get built?

I have a few ideas. They worked really well in Israel the first time around.

1)Convince folks that giving is good, wealth is bad. Make you feel guilty so you will give away the very blessings God gives you. As Astounded puts it, keep only what is required for the survival of your family. Give the rest to the “church” Some would add..”undesignated” here. So do we give out of guilt or give out of love as Jesus would have it? Give to meet needs, not build “the work of man’s hands”.

2)Convince people that once they are saved, nothing they do can prevent them from entering Heaven. Enter the whole “once saved always saved” mantra. A true enough statement. But when it is used to justify sin and the lack of repentance it does the same thing the “Abraham was our father” justification did for Israel. Specifically Jerusalem. So we have the whole branch argument. Falling off or getting cut off. God did that to the church in Jerusalem, to the whole of Israel as a result of unrepentant sin. (Jer 5.) Now, today, John 15:2 Romans 11:22 and Hebrews 10:29,30 tell us differently. In fact Hebrews 10:29 tells us that the consequences will be even worse than Israel. Never mind Revelations. So hopefully one can see why I argue this point vigorously.

3)Convince folks that they can’t live a sinless life. So we don’t even try anymore. That is living a defeated life, captive to sin. And the Christ I have been reading doesn’t teach that. He is the Lamb and the Lion. The sacrifice and the warrior. Leading us every day to battle sin in our lives. If we can be convinced that we can’t win the battle....we won’t even go to the fight. Everyone likes to jump in here and say “the enemy has been defeated...Christ won on the cross” yet the same people live every day failing to claim that victory in their own lives in their own flesh.

4)Convince folks that judgement is a far off event in the future and get them to blame God’s judgement today, and His rod of correction on satan so that they just keep plugging away on the wrong road, walking a path to destruction in their ignorant bliss.

Maybe a little Spurgeon will provide a little closure. I know it will for me.

Daily Devotional Evening, November 23 “Get thee up into the high mountain.”

Isaiah 40:9

Each believer should be thirsting for God, for the living God, and longing to climb the hill of the Lord, and see him face to face. We ought not to rest content in the mists of the valley when the summit of Tabor awaits us. My soul thirsteth to drink deep of the cup which is reserved for those who reach the mountain’s brow, and bathe their brows in heaven. How pure are the dews of the hills, how fresh is the mountain air, how rich the fare of the dwellers aloft, whose windows look into the New Jerusalem! Many saints are content to live like men in coal mines, who see not the sun; they eat dust like the serpent when they might taste the ambrosial meat of angels; they are content to wear the miner’s garb when they might put on king’s robes; tears mar their faces when they might anoint them with celestial oil. Satisfied I am that many a believer pines in a dungeon when he might walk on the palace roof, and view the goodly land and Lebanon. Rouse thee, O believer, from thy low condition! Cast away thy sloth, thy lethargy, thy coldness, or whatever interferes with thy chaste and pure love to Christ, thy soul’s Husband. Make him the source, the centre, and the circumference of all thy soul’s range of delight. What enchants thee into such folly as to remain in a pit when thou mayst sit on a throne? Live not in the lowlands of bondage now that mountain liberty is conferred upon thee. Rest no longer satisfied with thy dwarfish attainments, but press forward to things more sublime and heavenly. Aspire to a higher, a nobler, a fuller life.

Upward to heaven! Nearer to God! “When wilt thou come unto me, Lord?

Oh come, my Lord most dear!Come near, come nearer, nearer still, I’m blest when thou art near.”
Charles Spurgeon

ezekiel said...

Third time just has to work. I was editing to add the judgement part and wound up with some little doo-hickies between all the sentences and paragraphs that made it all run together...Sorry for the confusion it caused!

ezekiel said...

Lin,

Malpractice is a rather understated way of putting it don't you think?

I don't know. I was flipping through Ecclesiastes a few minutes ago....What a downer....I bet if you got inside the fellow's head you would find a lot less happiness than it looks like from the outside..

As far as your friend goes, we don't know what events will come to pass, what He may be saving her from....what He may be hurrying her to...

I know a guy that was diagnosed with terminal bone cancer about 10 years ago.....In spite of all the chemo, he is a walking, talking copy of the bible. Can quote from it almost at will...Doctors told him last week that they only wanted to see him every six months now....it has been every month. Doctors and hospitals nearly killed him twice, took all his blood out and replaced it with donor blood to preserve it, swamped him with massive doses of chemo and then put his blood back in. There is no telling how many lives he has touched over 10 years of chemo, testing, trials and waiting rooms. He tells me the chemo units are full of people with no hope....just giving up...

One really wants to feel sorry for him....but is he the unfortunate one?.....should we envy his walk? I wonder just how close to the mountain he is....

Tell your friend we will pray for her!

ForTruth said...

Based upon my observation of the shenanigans of many of the mega church leaders and certain characters seen cropping up on Christain T.V. so often and seeing their ability to get in front of a camara as often as one can be found:I wonder if their ability to have heard "The Call To Preach" might have been deminished slightly; except for the money and the fact that the kodak was ever invented in the first place.

Astounded said...

ezekiel said....
3)Convince folks that they can’t live a sinless life. So we don’t even try anymore. That is living a defeated life, captive to sin. And the Christ I have been reading doesn’t teach that. He is the Lamb and the Lion. The sacrifice and the warrior. Leading us every day to battle sin in our lives. If we can be convinced that we can’t win the battle....we won’t even go to the fight. Everyone likes to jump in here and say “the enemy has been defeated...Christ won on the cross” yet the same people live every day failing to claim that victory in their own lives in their own flesh.

I take it from you above statement that you think you are living a sinless life. That my friend is not biblical, not possible, and is tatamount to blasphemy. You are equating yourself to the Lord Jesus Christ by even intimating such heresy.

This will be the last post I direct to you since I fear that you are trapped in the clutches of Lucifer's evil force which is deceiving you by distorting the very Word that you feel is leading you to believe that you can live a "sinless" existence.

I will pray that you rebuke the godless force that is perverting your skewed belief.

Please turn to Jesus Christ and beg for forgiveness for your misbegotten pride that Satan has instilled in you that has mislead you to believe that you can even hope to attain a sinless existence as He did.

Only Jesus Christ was and is capable of living a sinless life in a human body. Only Satan can convince you that you can be on par with Jesus Christ by emulating His sinless exsistence.

If it were possible for you to live a sinless life I could trust in you to save me from my sins. I believe that Christ Jesus lived a sinless life. I do not believe that you can measure to that. I will trust in Him. You can trust in your own sinlessness.

Churchmouse said...

Much harm is being done to the bride of Christ, not just at 2000AR, but around the world. The bride is being fed poison while the gifts she intended for her Groom are being spirited out the back door. Her reputation is being sullied, so that none will hear her witness. She cries out to the caretaker, the undershepherd, and is cast out. She cries out to her Bridegroom. He tells her, "Don't be afraid. I am coming for you very soon."

bent but not broken @ GFBC said...

Another comeapart:

Richard Roberts resigned from ORU...

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j9XJtq8scoszIFZLWUjrR8mPuBFQD8T3TOH80

eprov said...

astounded and ezekiel.....
Altho I only scan read the lengthy posts from both of you, I think you are the same coin, just different sides of it.
ezekiel I think refers to our 'position' in Christ. And in that we are sinless. Thus the position of our Nazarene brothers who believe in santification.
astounded is practical and logical in the daily walk of a believer. While we are not 'of this world' we are 'in this world.'
No offense to either on the very strong positions with sufficient scripture to support both.
I am certainly not put off by either position. I have had a chance to have wonderful fellowship with those who have strong views on both sides of this 'coin.'
I certainly wouldn't ascribe to either anything other than respect for the intensity of resolve about opinions.
I heard a great Bible teacher say that we cannot eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge without be affected. So the more we know of scripture, the greater responsibility to base our fellowship with others on the basis of love. Maybe a good time to read I Cor. 13.

watchman said...

In the last 2 weeks or so, Rick Warren came out on his website telling all of his deceived minions...( pastors ) ...that " Satans greatest weapon is " dis-unity " ..and then went on to tell pastors to throw those who dont unite with the purpose driven vision to be thrown out of churches.

Dont miss this further revealing of the trojan horse called Purpose Drivem.

SATANS GREATEST WEAPON IS ' DECEPTION " , NOT DISUNITY MR. WARREN

gmommy said...

Padroc and eprov have done a good job to make sense and summarize the discussions going on between EZ and Astounded.....I thank them for that.

Astounded...you step over a major line when you say EZ is in the clutches of Lucifer's evil forces.
Glad you won't be addressing EZ anymore!! Please don't.
EZ...I hope you will stop addressing astounded.

Most of us have not only been posting for a long time now but we meet, we email, and we minister to each other.

Astounded, for you to make a statement like that...even sticking in the self righteous sounding "I'll pray for you"
makes me sure of what I couldn't quite put my finger on before.

Not that you care about anyone on here or our opinions, but I am very VERY confident that the clutches of Lucifer is NOT where EZ is.
To quote scripture and see yourself as someone qualified to make a horrible claim like that.....wrong blog.

Lin said...

"I take it from you above statement that you think you are living a sinless life. That my friend is not biblical, not possible, and is tatamount to blasphemy. You are equating yourself to the Lord Jesus Christ by even intimating such heresy."

I did not take it that way at all. Perhaps because I have had more diaglogue with Ez and understand where he is coming from.

We have to ask ourselves a very important question. When we are truly saved, are we changed? Are we continually growing in holiness which means we sin less and less as we mature and grow. Purified.

There is no such thing as sinless perfection in a mere human. What Ez is referring to is the teaching that you can be saved and continue in sin because well, we are not perfect so why bother?

There is quite a bit of false teaching out there. Justificiation and Sanctification are two different things BUT they are always accompanied by the other. There is NO Justification WITHOUT Sanctification. and visa versa.

One cannot be saved and stay the same as before.

We are not saved FROM our sin. We are saved UNTO Christ. This means our relationship with sin is totally changed forever and we are broken by it.

We don't blow it off as something casual to be 'expected' in our lives.

gmommy said...

Lin,
We are saved UNTO Christ...

I began to grasp that meaning in a new way not too long ago....oddly because I realized the rebelliousness that had come into my heart because of my seeing Sin being blown off as just mistakes.

A study of Ephesians convicted my heart and made it clear.
Jesus died on the cross to free me from my sin...the bondage of sin.

His sacrifice freed me to be OBEDIENT to His Word.....

NOT to say "well I'm not under the law....or I am just a sinner...whatever.
I am free to obey God.
Not free to do my own fleshly thing and be OK with it.

When I am convicted, it is different from the guilt and shame my parents taught me.

I am broken hearted that I disobeyed God and His Word.
I am more quick to repent and not OK with walking around feeling justified somehow.

Just my simple understanding.....

ezekiel said...

Astounded,

Last reply. I promise.

ezekiel said....
3)Convince folks that they can’t live a sinless life. So we don’t even try anymore. That is living a defeated life, captive to sin. And the Christ I have been reading doesn’t teach that. He is the Lamb and the Lion. The sacrifice and the warrior. Leading us every day to battle sin in our lives. If we can be convinced that we can’t win the battle....we won’t even go to the fight. Everyone likes to jump in here and say “the enemy has been defeated...Christ won on the cross” yet the same people live every day failing to claim that victory in their own lives in their own flesh.

Astounded said...
I take it from you above statement that you think you are living a sinless life. That my friend is not biblical, not possible, and is tatamount to blasphemy. You are equating yourself to the Lord Jesus Christ by even intimating such heresy.

Heresy? 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Nowhere have I said that I am living a sinless life. People that know me know better, so do I. That fact however does not relieve me from trying to. A process called sanctification, obedience to the WORD. You appear to be a glowing example of what I have been speaking against. Claiming the power and the cleansing of Christ’s precious blood while denying His ability to wash and cleanse you, make you a spotless part of the Bride. Continue to wallow in your sin.

1 Peter 1:15As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, You shall be holy, for I am holy.

1 Cor 15:34 Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

1 John3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:8Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:18We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

1 Peter 4:14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And
If the righteous is scarcely saved,

what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?

2 Timothy 3: But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men. 10 You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Lin said...

gmommy,

Right on! I found that when we are truly saved we love what God loves and hate what God hates.

If anyone does not believe God hates read Psalms 5 and Romans 8 for starters. If God did not hate sin, He would NOT be totally Just and would NOT be able to show great Mercy and Grace.

What is Grace if He did not hate sin so much that He gave His only Son to take His Wrath for us? If He did not hate sin, His Grace would be cheap. For this reason, we must take sin very seriously.

watchman said...

Rick Warren teams up with NEW AGER Leonard Sweet for 2008 conference.

RICK WARREN TEAMS UP WITH NEW AGER LEONARD SWEET

Lynn said...

A Tale of Two Leaders:

I was watching football today and had a rather interesting situation come up that is worth comparing…..specifically….Now former Nebraska Football Headcoach Bill Callahan is to Nebraska Football as Steve Gaines is to football:

Nebraska Before Callahan:

One of the top teams in the country and a perennial contender for the national title. Team was known for their strong defense.

Nebraska after Callahan’s arrival:

First 2 losing seasons since 1962…both under Callahan’s leadership.
Very Poor Defense: Giving up 40+ points multiple times
Bill Callahan on coming to Nebraska: Says He will FLIP THE CULTURE




Bellevue Before Gaines:

Thriving church being led by a godly man. While not perfect, there was unity in The Word.

After Gaines Arrival:

Gaines says he will teach the church how to pray. Also discussed how he would make drastic changes in the video at Gardendale, or at least commented on everything that was wrong with Bellevue. (See Bill Callahan’s “Flip the Culture” comment).

Attendance is down and thusly money is most likely down matching the downward trend in attendance.

Various controversies including PW.

Like The Nebraska Football team, Bellevue has fallen. Sadly however, unlike Nebraska where Callahan is accountable to the Athletic Director, There is no accountability for Gaines.

Churchmouse said...

ezekiel quoted:
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it

churchmouse's reply:
And there you have it! Our instructions!
Thank you Ezekiel, for that post. You are a blessing!

hecanhear said...

What is with the "30,000 member Bellevue Church" in the newspaper this morning? Why are they still using this number then they know good and well the membership is not even half of that?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Bellevue Baptist goes on global 'mission'

New BBC Open Forum said...

Roughin' it...

"During the conference, the Memphis women drink from separate communal cups. During lunch and dinner, they eat different food in a separate area, away from the stink and flies that complement the meals of the women they are in India to reach. And at night, they sleep in a three-star hotel in neighboring Secunderabad, an hour's drive from the heat and mosquitoes that accompany the Indian women's rest."

Lynn said...

This stuck out like a sore thumb in the article:

"Donna Gaines, the wife of Bellevue Pastor Steve Gaines, led the summer mission to Sathuluri's compound. A tall former beauty queen with a mini-bouffant, Gaines speaks in a thick southern accent about Bellevue's work in the "10/40 window.""


And in the Pot Meet Kettle Department:

"However, Gaines sees Hinduism as nothing more than idol-worship. "It's sad, actually, because we were and are created in the image of God," she says."


Once again, its not about the mission, its about the Gaineses.

gmommy said...

isn't it all part of the marketing splurge that is going on now???
That's a question...I have no answers....

I WAS tickled at the decription of someone's hair style, however.

Now, how did they come to have reporters with them??

The other comment that stood out to me was the statement that BBC SENDS people on these trips...this gives the impression that BBC funds the lay people that go....the people I knew that went on mission trips had to get their own funding.
The article just seemed hoaky to me ...but if it is sincere and wonderful...then good for them.

The 30,000 was a misprint wasn't it?????

MOM4 said...

gmommy said....
"
The 30,000 was a misprint wasn't it?????"

Maybe that was dollars - the 30K that it took Donna to go to India...:)

gmommy said...

Mom4,
Maybe that WAS the misunderstanding....
very interesting and informative article....don't you think????

MOM4 said...

gmommy,
I think it is a very interesting article and actually not very flattering of BBC. You know that Dr Rogers' son has also been to India to train pastors there, but there was not a mention in the CA about it. I guess the approach and purpose was different.
One more thing I noted, BBC has ALWAYS given millions to missions. I cannot understand the current need to dismantle the home base to send the same set of "missionaries" (granted Donna Gaines is a newbie, but the rest are the same faces that always have gone on international mission trips - the wealthy contributors that can afford to pay their own way). No one mentions those who went to New Orleans to clean and assist the needy there, but, those are the ones that couldn't afford expensive trips to foreign countries, they are the folks that took their only vacation time and rode buses for hours to sleep on the concrete outdoors without bathroom facilities or even mosquito netting - also at their own expense.
There is nothing new under the sun....

watchman said...

The New York Times is the vehicle by which the prophecied apostasy and greatest published compromise and comcession to the new age christ is being made in the name of peace and safety.

Read it and look up...for our redemption draweth nigh.

LEADING EVANGELICALS SIGN LETTER OF COMMON GROUND WITH MUSLIMS

New BBC Open Forum said...

This morning's CA article has some interesting reader comments at the end.

Lynn said...

The sad thing is, to a certain extent, I agree with those who criticize Bellevue.

When I read the article, in my opinion, the people from Bellevue interviewed in the article gave off a "We're better than you" attittude. Let me tell you, I've been working with people from India in my job. Steve and Donna Gaines can learn a thing or two from the Indians, specifically HUMILITY. The arrogance of those from Bellevue is why non-christians harden their hearts. Non-christians are not stupid. They smell BS when they see it.

watchman said...

Berit Kjos has a new and fact filled article on what is happening globally to redefine Christ and Christianity...entitled...

SHAPING A NEW CIVILIZATION

Dont Miss it


Shaping a New Civilization

Lynn said...

My biggest problem with the article, besides the irony of Donna Gaines discussing idol worship while they describe her as a beauty queen is that the article paints an erronous picture of people in India. Because of outsourcing, I have to deal with their culture on a daily basis in my job. The Indians that I have come across happen to be very intelligent and smart. I'm not saying that everyone over there is like that, but I am saying that the CA's article makes it appear as most of the people in India is that when that is not the case.

New BBC Open Forum said...

The last Sunday that DG & Co. were in India, Phil Newberry announced in the morning service that SG had taken his daughters on "vacation" while Donna was out of town. I thought it was odd he avoided saying where Steve took them. Turns out, according to my source, he reportedly took them to India to meet up with Donna. I wonder if the church paid their way.

MOM4 said...

nbbcof,
I had heard that as well, but since the "books" are sealed from the membership, we will never know who paid for it, will we?
Although I do personally know 2 people who went on disaster relief trips with BBC and they paid their own way except for what the Red Cross paid for, which was food and supplies. Of course, there were some BBC buses that were used, but I understand that the Red Cross underwrote that fuel expense as well.
During the evacuation, BBC opened the gym for refugees from the disaster and it was staffed with volunteers, but for those workers who went to NO and elsewhere, I know of no one who went for free as some have claimed on that "other" blog:)

gopher said...

Just wanted to clarify that the trips that I know of, made by Bellevue members to “Gulf Coast” for disaster relief were free, as housing and meals were provided. The only cost was that someone had to drive ( carpool ) and they were reimbursed for gas only and not wear and tear of vehicle and the people were responsible for any medical cost that could have occurred.

MOM4 said...

Thanks gopher, I asked my friends about the reimbursement and was told that one did not know to submit receipts; therefore,they took the mileage deduction on their taxes. The other did likewise because he thought the reimbursement out of tithes and offerings was an expense that they could not justify since it was the Lord's money they would be taking, it was a personal conviction for them. They considered that money to be sacred and they could not justify asking for it, but rather to sacrifice financially than to touch God's annointed tithe....

concernedSBCer said...

Interesting comments on the CA article... I found these two to be especially interesting...

Posted by Memphis_Is_Bad on November 25, 2007 at 4:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I've never known of a church to place ads on TV, Billboards, or newspapers before. Does anyone else just think this is strange? I think Dateline should do an undercover investigation of Bellevue.

Posted by KWinOB on November 26, 2007 at 2:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow, This "church" is just plain nuts! Steve Gaines protects a sexual predator, then climbs fences in the gated community at the home of another church leader to intimidate him. The Gaines faction tells the man he is "hezbolla". Now we move on to rape under the Christmas Tree, at the annual pageant, and couples openly having sex in church restrooms at it's i2 meetings for Christian singles. We have Birthday parties for one of Gaines daughters held at the Colonial Country club, put on a church credit card. Dana Kirk could have told Gaines that place was nothing but trouble. Now, Donna Gaines travels to India, bankrolls an obvious conman (Edgar), and then this, this I really love. Spewing from Donna Gaines mouth are insults aimed at every other religion on earth. Donna Gaines is so insensitive and intent on being the "ugly American", that she dismisses Hinduism (worlds third largest religion), as "just idol-worhip", calls it a "pagan religion", and talks about the "God shaped vacuum...a hole in our heart". Clearly the strongest "god shaped vacuum" in India is right between Donna Gaine's ears. Earth to Bellvue, these people are nuts! The money you tith and entrust to Steve Gaines is paying for Birthday parties, airplane tickets for the girls to attend cheerleading practice that was hidden as a "moving expense", your money is also going to another of Donna's pet projects. You are paying for the production and marketing of her own bible study video series that is owned as a non-profit though not by Bellvue, but by (you guessed it), Steve and Donna Gaines, and the non-profit is incorporated in Alabama. Now, Pastor Steve ignores the confessions of a child molester and later refers to the acts of incest and child molestation as a mere "moral failure".
Now, I really did not care much for Southern Baptists or Bellvue in particular prior to any of this, but you are being flat out ripped off in a style that would make P.T. Barnum grin from ear to ear. What ever reputation you thought your church had, is gone, and now you stand before everyone in town, looking foolish, with a "god shaped vacuum" in your wallets.

Lynn said...

I was just looking at the Sermon notes for this past Sunday's sermons.

SSDD best describes it. Same Stuff Different Day.

Morning Sermons was "Prevailing over Persecution"

Evening Sermon was "Fighting False Prophets".

Ironic no?

STOPTHEMADNESS said...

NASS: Did you see the half page, ZOOMED photo of the Lady from India...She says she will be beaten if her husband finds out she was baptized. WHY would BBC release such a photo? It is obvious who they care about. IF anyone from BBC reads this: PLEASE DO NOT PUT PHOTOS of OPRESSED women you have made defiant in the PAPER!! There are very global citizens of India now, and they can read. SHAME ON YOU!

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