This is the story of one abusive pastor, Phil Arms, but there are some similarities to what Bellevue is experiencing. This is Phil Arms' bio, copied from his website, Phil Arms Ministries."Phil Arms grew up in West Texas. His dynamic Christian mother raised her six children in the local church. However, Phil did not commit his life to Christ during his younger years and chose to join himself with the sub-culture of the sixties and seventies in Houston, Texas. After experiencing one dead end after another, running from the love and voice of God, he began to search for reality and gave his life to Christ on a street corner in 1972. Immediately after his conversion, he began a ministry on the streets of Houston, Texas, witnessing to those in need of Jesus. Within a short time God began to open wide the doors for Phil to minister in churches, schools and evangelistic rallies.
"He was licensed to preach in a local Southern Baptist Church and commissioned as an evangelist, birthing Phil Arms Minstries. This inter-denominational ministry went on to create weekend rallies geared to youth for many years, adding television and radio ministries, and also numerous church revivals and area-wide campaigns where Phil always focused on preaching a Bible-centered, Christ-exalting message.
"After spending fifteen years in the ministry of full-time evangelism, Phil and his wife, Suzanne, felt God strongly urging them to start a local church in the Houston area in 1986 and for fourteen years witnessed a continual, powerful move of the Spirit of God as it touched thousands of lives and homes.
"Since the year 2000, Dr. Arms, has devoted much of his time to writing and speaking at Bible Conferences and in churches as well as guesting for radio programs.
"Phil has co-authored several best-selling books with men such as Tim LaHaye and others. These books include Earth's Final Days, The Triumphant Return of Christ, and Piercing the Darkness.
"He has also written Promise Keepers--Another Trojan Horse , Wet Flies Can't Fly, The Winner in You and Pokemon and Harry Potter--Fatal Attractions."
But that's not Phil Arms' whole story...
From The Houston Press we learn that there's a whole lot more to his story than the above.
Read In Arms' Way.
Here's one couple's experience with Phil Arms:
Spiritual Abuse - Is there such a thing?
And another's:
Houston Church - The Problem
Related articles: What is "Spiritual Abuse"?
Biblical Leadership Styles
Tell it to the Church
649 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 649 of 649I feel desperately sorry for Shelia Conner of Medon, TN...Let's all commit to pray for her, that she would come to know Jesus.
Hello all!
For information on Mitt Romney go to www.massresistance.com.
Diana
There's a 2:04 p.m. comment by "been redeemed" from yesterday that I just now saw and published. Sorry for the delay.
Bellevue's Majesty of Christmas program is being streamed live on the internet now.
Thanks NASS,
I tuned in to the Bellevue's Majesty of Christmas just in time for the Jamie/Ryan/? trio, which I winced thru, then the choir sang and did a wonderful job. I saw familiar faces, but most were strangers. Right now, Ryan Wingo is doing another production with his guitar, which is more like a Bobby Goldsboro song with semi-religious lyrics...I had to mute it....now Gaines is on - I am surprised he did not come on stage singing impromptu as he did during the presentation of the tree...but wait.....it ain't over yet....
oops, but before I can finish - WE HAVE RAP----you have GOT to be kidding! The choir did such a beautiful job - why ruin it with RAP???
Steve Gaines came out and sang rap?????? tehehe :)
No! {rolling eyes}
Oh my gmommy, NO! I am sorry for the confusion - I don't know who was singing the rap - but it was not SG - tune in - Lalania Vaughan is singing right now...some of the pieces are very good including her.
Been Redeemed,
Please know I stand with you, and appreciate and share your passion.
I am open to being corrected from a theological stand point,of course....
but what I want to encourage you about is that
BBC was not "God's church"...and if it was then....we are still standing!!!!
We may not worship in the building with the big crosses in the yard we do belong to the Lord, we SAW the truth of what was going on
(we were not deceived) and we stood against the majority until we knew that the leadership was not interested in restoration....(and until the pain was unbearable or useless)
That WAS our first intention....restoration....no matter how much that is lied about. The leadership read the motions....they KNOW the truth.
The bogus business meeting, the non vote on the CEO being ordained, the joke of the so called restoration meeting with the hand full of men that attended.
I spoke to a gentleman last week (who's name we have all heard)
and he is still in shock and disbelief to the point that we have all been at some point along the way.
We did do all we knew to do...we didn't all get together and do it at the same time...BUT we SAW....
we didn't make excuses or put our heads in the sand.
God knows our hearts.
God knows their hearts.
They may build BBC back up IN NUMBERS....but we weren't deceived.
Some people are still so blind... they think it is "about the music" or that we don't like Steve instead of his bad behavior and lack of leadership.....
we can't do a thing about what they think.
That's an EASY way to deflect away from what's really going on for them....so be it!
The "church" is alive and strong...
wounded but not broken!!!
and BTW to whoever...
I am NOT saying that those still going to BBC are NOT the church or not saved....because that's absolutely not my call AND I know some really fine people still at BBC...
but we other believers have left the building.
I was being silly.
clarification....I was being silly about the rap....
I need to agree with GMommy: BBC was not God's Church....it was a part of God's Church. There are many fine churches still preaching the gospel, and have been preaching it for many years.
Jesus is the Cornerstone, the Head of the Church, and He is still with us.
For my family, 2007 is ending as a bitter-sweet phase of our lives. We left the church we had been an active part of for 35yrs. So many precious memories! So many sweet friends in the Lord! So much deep edifying teaching to grow us in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ! It was because we were taught so well the Word of God that we could not stay and be a part of the direction the church is headed in now. And the demise of the flagship church that we once loved seemed (though it may have been simmering beneath the surface longer than we knew)to
happen so quickly that it all still seems a bit surreal. It was like a sunami wave that came crashing down suddenly without warning. And our hearts are sad.
But God always has a plan for His people and His plans are always for good and not for evil to give us a future and a hope (Jerm.29:11). The sheep are scattered but they are now being integrated into new fellowships and being fed and being productive in new pastures. There is joy this Christmas because God is doing a new thing in our lives. We are being refreshed and renewed as we never realized we could outside the walls of Bellevue.
"Remember not the former things, neither consider the things of old.
Behold, I will do a NEW THING; now it shall spring forth; shall you not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert." (Isaiah 43:18,19)
32yrs@BBC..Finding a new church home after years at BBC is kind of like the choices, for president, being offered up by the republicans and democrats. "Not one of them is anything to get excited about".
amazed wrote:
"Not one of them is anything to get excited about".
First of all, I disagree with that. But the bigger issue, as I see it, is that perhaps some of the world's criticism of Bellevue, including the label of "Six Flags Over Jesus," has some merit. We shouldn't be going to church to be entertained or because it's "exciting." I'm not saying church should be dull, somber, and boring, not at all, but I like to be able to tell whether I'm in church or attending a rock concert or amusement park or cheering at a sporting event when I'm there. Sometimes at BBC lately it's been hard to tell with what I've witnessed -- lots of flash and "excitement" and "fun" but not a whole lot of substance.
The fact is several thousand people have left and are still leaving BBC, and they are being scattered to many other churches in the area. From what I'm hearing, those people are finding plenty of "excitement" in their new churches, but more importantly they're being fed and blessed, and they're finding places of service and being a blessing to the churches they've joined. Many people are still looking for a new church home, and I've no doubt some have given up on "church" at least for a time.
Again, this is just my opinion, but it seems to me a lot of the pain and disappointment people have experienced in leaving (or in contemplating leaving) Bellevue is because of an unrealistic image of what it was. It was never the near-perfect church so many thought it was. A lot of people have been living in the proverbial bubble, and the bubble has burst. In case you never noticed, Cordova, TN has never been "the place called Perfect."
NBBCOF...I will say again, most of the smaller churches in the Memphis area do not hold a candle to BBC during the time that Dr. Rogers was pastor. I had a wonderful bible study class to attend, the preaching was always top notch and there were more activities available then you could ever use. Yes I have visited numerous churches in the last few months and none of them are even a close fit. It is entirely possible that I have just about given up on the process.My wife and I visited one church a few times and we know many of the members. We did not receive one phone call or visit from anyone in the church. Oh well.
amazed,
I'm... amazed. Actually, my experience has been the opposite. During all the time I was visiting BBC, even joining a SS class before joining the church, I NEVER, not ONCE, received a phone call, a visit from anyone, or even a note saying "we're glad you visited with us." This in spite of filling out numerous visitor's cards, etc.
However, when I've visited other churches, I've been visited by someone from each of them (except GBC, but I didn't fill out a visitor's card there, so that's not their fault). In a couple of cases, I was visited the same Sunday afternoon after attending in the morning.
I didn't realize until recently that BBC even does visitation. Don't know who they visit, but I was certainly never on anyone's list.
I guess everyone's experience is different. I'm sorry to hear about yours and hope you'll find a new church home soon.
Discontentment about finding a new church home has more to do with expectancy that any real present problems. In the age of the megachurch, people have become accustomed to everything being on a large scale...from SS classes, to choirs, to larger-than-life pastors, to endless programs and activities. Search the New Testament Scriptures, or study the history of the early church and see if you can find such grandeur. The local bodies who were commended were those whose faithfulness (both to the Word and discipline), love for the saints, and sacrificial giving were known throughout THE church. No big names, no fancy buildings or orchestras, no programs, sports teams, etc...just faithful saints. Could these churches, many of which met house to house, hold a candle to the mighty BBC? I suppose that's how you would measure a church. Was BBC really that great?...in my admittedly flawed thinking, if it were THAT great, then the death of Adrian Rogers would not have created such chaos and upheaval. Perhaps we need to rethink what defines "great".
My wife and I visited one church a few times and we know many of the members. We did not receive one phone call or visit from anyone in the church. Oh well.
1:09 PM, December 17, 2007
Sounds like the perfect church! They need good bible teachers, laity who are part of the body and use their gifts to edify the body.
AOG,
"Was BBC really that great?...in my admittedly flawed thinking, if it were THAT great, then the death of Adrian Rogers would not have created such chaos and upheaval. Perhaps we need to rethink what defines "great"."
What was "great" about BBC, was that thru the teaching and preaching of Dr Rogers AND the scope of godly music led by Jim Whitmire, it brought us to the place where we should be, to worship the Lord in truth, to make us want to be more like HIM not the WORLD!
amazed said...
NBBCOF...I will say again, most of the smaller churches in the Memphis area do not hold a candle to BBC during the time that Dr. Rogers was pastor.
Do you realize how that remark comes across to all of the members and pastors of the "smaller" churches in the Memphis area? I doubt that you meant it that way, but is is an insult nonetheless.
Another phase that reflects the same attitude is "flagship church" of the SBC. Honestly, if God has any rankings of His churches at all, I seriously doubt it is by our standards.
Dear NBBCOF: I can tell you BBC did have a visitation program. I was part of for several years. They based it around the F.A.I.T.H. program.
The way it was supposed to have worked was on Tuesday night we would meet and take the visitors cards that were signed in the Bible Fellowship class and visit those people.
Problem was we had so very few members willing to venture out and share Christ. The FAITH program was so simple. We would stand up in class and implore other class mates to join us. Very, very few responded.
Trust me if you were not visited it was not because we did not want to. We had too many cards and not enough willing to share.
And that was during Dr. Rogers' time.
They later moved it to Sunday afternoon in an attempt to get more to partcipate. Folks were just too involved in their own lives.
Like I said the other night, go figure.
David Brown
During the Glory Days of Bellevue, many people visited and some joined and "fell quietly through the cracks". A lot depended on the individual Bible Study class and its leadership. Some classes were well organized and responded to the needs of the class members. Others were not. If you never joined a class, your chances of being overlooked were much greater.
There were times when I tried to get a response from the church in regard to the needs of a fellow member, and was unable to even make a contact. At other times, the response was very helpful.
I will be eternally grateful for my time at Bellevue under Dr. Rogers' leadership. I never expected perfection. God knows I have many "short-comings". I feel comfortable with others who sometimes miss the mark.
Thank you God, for your forgiveness and your grace.
AOG & junk,
I agree. I'm reminded of the results of that study commissioned by BBC which determined that the people of Memphis felt that the people of BBC were "vain and proud." While it's probably not intentional, that is the image that's been portrayed by some BBC members. Bellevue is the biggest, the best, the "flagship" church of the SBC. What's next? "Bellevue! We're Number 1!" bumper stickers?
Junskter...Have you ever wondered why BBC was the only church in Memphis to reach the so called mega church status? I know, mega does not translate into good or desireable but the man in the pulpit was the difference. In fact, it goes further back in the form of leaders like Dr. Lee who laid the foundation. God was using great men to get the word out. Can you imagine the lives that have been changed, all over the world, by Love Worth Finding? In fact, it is still happening today.
For many years, the resources of BBC were used to spread the word far and wide. The current situation is sadily different.
nbbcof,
I think the criticism is fair.
When Bellevue was in midtown, the facilities were old and worn. There was a lot of creativity in the use of space. To access the youth, you had to find the third floor and climb a set of iron spiral steps up to the fouth flour. (Try that in a dress and heels.)
The church was a large building joined to smaller older buildings, each with thier unique style and "decor." Some of the carpet was the old indoor/ outdoor kind, and it was stained and curling in places. Some classes were in buildings across the street, or where ever space could be found.
We had three Sunday morning services. Sometimes, especially at night, the crowd would overflow into the foyer. There were panels that were removed from the walls to provide windows with a view into the sanctuary.
We had two levels of balcony. I remember sitting on the steps of the upper balcony in the evening, on more than one occassion. The place would be literally packed.
When the church moved to Cordova, everything changed. The "snob" factor came to life, for real.
Amazed: The love you have for your church is evident. That's how it should be! But BBC was really no different than any other Bible-believing church. Every church worked hard to meet needs, minister, evangelize, and do mission work.
Remember the widow woman? She gave a tiny amount and it was all she had to give, and it was as much/more a blessing than what the rich people gave.
It's about the heart, the motive....giving it "all." Small churches can give their all and be just as blessed in God's eyes as a mega.
(And I know a small church that may not have all the ball teams and buildings, but they are giving their all and it is an honor to be a part. You are welcome to join us.)
amazed said...
Junskter...Have you ever wondered why BBC was the only church in Memphis to reach the so called mega church status?
By definition, a mega-church is one with around 2,000 or more worshippers for a typical weekly service. There are several of those around Memphis. Yes, BBC is "bigger" than any other local SB church, but as you said, "mega does not translate into good or desireable".
but the man in the pulpit was the difference.
I suspect that man would give credit to the Holy Spirit, don't you? And it would be no false humility on his part. God could as easily have used anyone He wanted to grow BBC. Dr. R was a great preacher and a godly man, but in life he'd have been quick to jump off the pedastal some seem determined to place him on after death.
In fact, it goes further back in the form of leaders like Dr. Lee who laid the foundation. God was using great men to get the word out. Can you imagine the lives that have been changed, all over the world, by Love Worth Finding? In fact, it is still happening today.
This is true. But it is no insult to BBC, Dr. R, or LWF to recoginze that other, smaller churches and their pastors are just as valued by God as BBC.
For many years, the resources of BBC were used to spread the word far and wide. The current situation is sadly different.
Sadly true. But I believe that BBC needed to be humbled to have any chance of being used even more by God in the future.
I would like to revisit something lin said a couple of days ago.
lin said:
"But we get the leaders we deserve. He has, for some reason, given us the ability to choose them."
10:03 PM, December 14, 2007
churchmouse comments:
When Moses was on the mountain with God, it was the people of Israel who wanted Aaron the build the golden calf. Sadly, he did that.
Back in the days of the OT kings, we repeatedly read the comment, "And King_____ did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord." Following would be a commentary on the "high places" and Ashera poles that were constructed and the idol worship that happened.
When the good kings came into power, they tore down the high places and Ashera poles, and led the people to worship the true God.
Back and forth they went.
The people were at least complicit in the disobedience that destroyed the nation of Israel.
Are we as a nation complicit in the sin of our leaders? I think they have reflect what we have become.
Are we complicit in the sin of our church leaders?
Forgive me for not visiting in such a long time. I had promised not to post again, since my own pastoral context affords so little time for it, but also since I've battled fear over involving myself where I simply do not belong. But in some free time today I happened across a comment here that may well serve your context, whether or not an individual reader still calls Bellevue home.
Yesterday the poster "allofgrace" questioned what it is to be great. This is a wonderful subject for Christians and churches, for the very reason that we are prone to refer to something that is less than great as something that is great. To me, the need to rethink what is great carries with it the same urgency with which we might rethink what it is to be active. Often I hear about a church member who is active. What does that mean? Does that mean that this person attends services? Does that mean a person is also a tither, an evangelist, a student of the Word, a real disciple of Christ? Too literally, the tag "active" now refers to someone who attends a morning service twice a month. Well, in the same way, what does it mean to be a great church? Is a great church one that bursts at the seams in numbers, or has a renowned preacher, or delivers excellent music, or boasts a dynamic radio ministry, or maintains a huge budget and huge buildings? Maybe it is time we rethink what is great, and not really for greatness' sake but for the sake of the standards by which God defines greatness. Hear this, that He is not all that impressed with the size of our buildings or our budgets, or especially with the sense of pride we feel about "flagship" or megachurches. God has revealed by His Word that what pleases Him is faith and what He honors with greatness is humility. Perhaps too many Christians and churches have been exalting themselves, hailing themselves within an aura of self-determined greatness, while inadvertantly shirking the very demeanor of discipleship that God has defined as great. Where is the simple faith that seeks His kingdom and righteousness first? Where is the humility that is modeled by Christ Himself, the Head of the Church?
Many will read what I've posted as an attack on Steve Gaines and the current direction of Bellevue. May that not be the case, since I don't know the man and am not intimately acquainted with your situation. Others will suggest I am attacking the legacies of men like R.G. Lee, Adrian Rogers, or Jim Whitmire. I'm doing nothing of the sort, choosing, rather, to still admire them as giants who walked the ministerial path before me. All I suggest here is a fresh, revived dose of humility for all involved. Greatness comes not from being a Southern Baptist flagship or having a Southern Baptist legend on your pedestal. Neither is greatness diminished from having a man you perceive as flawed in your pulpit. Greatness comes and goes depending fully on whether a Christian and church will deny self, take up his or its cross daily, and follow Jesus. Where is the humility? Answering that question may yet be the solution to the problem you're all experiencing.
Bromichael, I would add to what you say with: There are no great men or women in all of Christendom. There are only depraved sinners saved by grace.
Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone". (Mark 10)
The greatest among you shall be your servant. Matthew 23
bromichael.......
I agree.
While I find the phenomena of a large group of believers who have been called together in a local assembly to be inspiring and powerful, there is a major difference between God 'building the house' and man using business and marketing techniques! I think you can 'sense' it if you have the Holy Spirit.
Not to say that good isn't accomplished with the latter, but I don't think will stand the test of trial and tribulation.
Anyone besides me ever noticed that the push to 'win souls' is usually a critical ingredient of the latter. Isn't that a twist?
Oh well, my voice is from 'another generation.' Not really. I am much a part of life!
Regarding bromichael's Dec.18 post:
"Active" member should mean one who is involved in the ministry of the church as well as attendance.
"Flagship" in my post was not meant to exalt the church organization but just define its role in the past as a strong spiritual leader among Southern Baptist churches.
Of course, smaller churches are just as valuable as a mega church in the eyes of the Lord , maybe even more so - if those churches are teaching/preaching sound doctrine that edifies/corrects and builds up the body of Christ as well as calling the lost to Jesus. Those preachers laboring in small churches without large staff support, and living sacrificial lives will no doubt be among the "last that shall be first" that the Scripture speaks of.
The premise of my post was this:
if the Lord leads you out, you can be assured He will lead you where He will feed you, bless you and have a place of ministry for your good and His glory.
If you go into any church comparing it with the former BBC, you will only be frustrated and discouraged. There is no perfect church because the church is made up of imperfect people..sinners saved by grace. The main thing is to seek integrity and humble, loving spirits among the leadership, and sound doctrinal teaching. And go with the idea of being a blessing instead of always just seeking a blessing.
May all of you have a joyous
Christmas and God's riches blessings in the coming New Year.
I never say the learned or profound things that great discussions are made of. But, as to the last several wonderful posts...Everytime someone famous dies, everything they touched becomes hallowed; They are remembered as the best at what they did. The media shows hours of footage. And it is usually for fruitless, worldy accomplishments. WHY does it irk people when we give our best to the memory of Dr. Adrian Rogers? Was his earthly work not worthy of fond memories and respect? Why does that attitude have to be labeled in any way? He was a man of his word, through and through. And God COULD have chosen anyone. BUT HE CHOSE BROTHER ADRIAN. Doesn't that make it even more special? When we recall the fond memories of the Pollard Activities building and Wednesday night suppers at the "old" Bellevue; it is like treason! That was once a sweet and acceptable topic. Just like the old bowling alley. We should be able to remember out loud ANYTHING and ANYONE we want without being attacked and told we can leave. When will life ever be normal again? I am So sorry that the new Bellevue EVER took that as a comparison, to how we could have grown to feel about Dr. Gaines. Now we will never know.
Has anyone noticed the commercials for Hope Pres. Have they dropped the "Pres" from their name? Anyone know? I know they are full blown PDC.
eprov said:
Oh well, my voice is from 'another generation.' Not really. I am much a part of life!
reply:
Friend, we haven't changed - "they" have changed. I have had a sort of identity crises watching the direction of SBC and the CHURCH.
God hasn't changed, so why should we? In these days of seeker friendly vanilla theology, emergent church mysticism, and trendy prayer techniques, I find myself turning more and more to the Word. Did Jesus tell us to pray the names of God? Did Jesus tell us to walk a labyrinth to be filled with the Spriit? What did HE do when some were offended by the first Lord's Supper?
There is man's religion. And there is God's Word. Give me the latter!
Rod Almondmartanti said...
The article by Joseph Faarah, "Between The Lines", accesed thru Saving Bellevue is very informative.
Here are some things to think about: Hank Hannagraph, in a debate just a few days ago at the Pre-Tribulaation conference, revealed these beliefs and teachings of his.
The Book of Revelation, in his opinion was written before 65 AD. This fallacious conclusion he came to because he THINKS John would have mentioned the destruction of the Temple if it were as all legitimate scholors agree, 95 AD
Hank says and teaches there is NO Rapture!
He says the anti-christ was Nero!
He says the tribulation has already taken place!
He says the Messianic Kingdom is NOT a literal 1000 yeaars!
And, this is one that really blows my mind: he says we are NOW in the Messianic kingdom!!!
Rod,
this post (which I'm guessing you took directly from the article you reference) contains some serious misinformation. Most of what is here about Hank's views of eschatology is erroneous. I'm sure the errors are not yours, but are in fact in the original article based on similar pieces that have been circulating for the last 24 months. Here goes with a few:
All legitimate scholars do not agree that Revelation was written in 95 AD. RC Sproul is a legitimate scholar, and he doesn't agree. The only reason people date the book to 95 is b/c of one sentence in a book by Irenaeus, who wrote that John's vision was seen near the end of the reign of Domitian. The sentence can also be read to say John himself was seen near the end of Domitian's reign, the Greek is unclear. In any event, Irenaeus also wrote that Jesus was around 50 years old when he was crucified, so maybe he's not the best person on dates. He also thought Paul started the church in Rome; maybe he should have read Romans 1 and Romans 15. If we rule out Irenaeus' assertion and only look at internal evidence presented by the book itself, the language, references to the temple, etc., all point to an earlier date.
Hank does not teach that there is no Rapture, but that the Rapture and the Second Coming are simultaneous events, as depicted in 1 Thessalonians 4.
Hank believes Nero was the Beast/666, not the anti-Christ. (He doesn't think those are necessarily the same person, since the word anti-Christ never appears in Revelation, and John's epistles make it clear that there are many anti-Christs, not just one.)
Hank does teach that the tribulation Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24 was the persecution of the first Christians by the Jews and Rome.
He does see the 1000 years as a symbolic number. But he does not think we are currently in a Messianic Kingdom as you are presenting it here.
Hank does not know everything there is to know about everything in the Bible (nor does he claim to) and I certainly don't agree with everything he teaches, but we need to be accurate in relating what he does say. Those who claim he is committing the "argument from silence" fallacy concerning the earlier dating of Revelation are themselves committing a straw man fallacy by ignoring all the other evidence he presents for the early dating.
Others who held similar views:
Calvin, Luther, Knox, Zwingli, John Bunyan, Andrew Fuller, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Kenneth Gentry, RC Sproul.
I can only speak for my own post on the subject matter raised by "stopthemadness". My intent was not to tarnish Dr. Rogers or his ministry, rather to point up some fundamental issues in regards to how people tend to measure a local church. I, as do many others, hold Dr. Rogers both as a man and a pastor, in high regards. However, one man, not even one of the stature of Dr. Rogers IS a church. One of the points I was making is that if BBC were in the shape which most of us thought it to be, then Dr. R's death, though causing much grief for those who loved him, would not have ushered in the kind of chaos and animosity which we witnessed in the aftermath. While the present administration can be blamed for much of that, all that has happened could not have happened without the support of those who have remained. Are these not the same people at BBC during Dr. R's tenure? That being the case, then reason would tell us that though on the surface everything seemed to be fine, there were undercurrents present which weren't so obvious.
As Christians we are faced with many temptations, but possibly the greatest temptation any of us (as individuals or a church) can face is the temptation of complacency. It's all too easy when things on the surface seem to being going so well, and we feel very satisfied with how things are, to become complacent. Sadly, all to often our thoughts of what a church is or what it should be is shaped, much like our thoughts about God Himself, by our own imaginations, rather than being informed by Scripture. A careful study of the letters to the seven churches in Revelation will give an accurate glimpse into how our Lord measures a church. The church at Laodecia (sp)for example, thought themselves to be quite rich according to their own estimation, however the Lord saw them as being poor, blind, and naked. Let's allow our view of both the church universal and the local body to be shaped by our Lord's estimation.
AOG wrote:
"That being the case, then reason would tell us that though on the surface everything seemed to be fine, there were undercurrents present which weren't so obvious."
And that is the point I was making yesterday. You just came out and said it more plainly. Thank you.
I am so busy...I am not having time to do anything other than a 'quick read' right now. :( But...I am loving this discussion. Be glad when I can catch up.
IMA
Reference the discussion re Dr. Rogers. There was no one on staff, in the deacon body or in the church membership, that would challenge Dr. Rogers on any subject. The same is true now, because no one is bold enough to challenge Steve Gaines. So why are the results different? Previously, the church was growing and now it is shrinking. Lets hear those wonderful opinions.
Has anyone noticed the commercials for Hope Pres. Have they dropped the "Pres" from their name? Anyone know? I know they are full blown PDC.
Hope is still part of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church body. They have always limited the name of the church through their marketing as Hope Church. As you stated, this is standard operating procedure for the PDC movement.
Craig Strickland is a close friend and confident of Rick Warren. Hope even hosts periodical church building seminars that follow to a tee, the PDC plan. And in many cases Hope is used as a test bed for Strickland's and Warren's PDC initiatives.
And yes, Hope is a model structure for upstart PDC's.
amazed said...
Reference the discussion re Dr. Rogers. There was no one on staff, in the deacon body or in the church membership, that would challenge Dr. Rogers on any subject. The same is true now, because no one is bold enough to challenge Steve Gaines. So why are the results different? Previously, the church was growing and now it is shrinking. Lets hear those wonderful opinions.
When it comes to leadership, BBC is really no different than a business. In 1985 Michael Dell started selling personal computers. In 1999 Dell Computers passed Compaq as the largest seller of personal computers in the US. From it's beginning Dell, with Michael Dell as company CEO, grew to be the 25th largest company on the Fortune 500 list. In 2004, Michael Dell stepped down as CEO and was succeeded by Kevin Rollins. Under Rollins' leadership, the focus of the company changed to producing low-end computers and the company branched out to other aspects of the computer industry, mainly multi-media, televisions, digital audio players and gaming. After Rollins took control, in 2005, earnings and sales started slipping. In January, 2007, Rollins, responding to the outcry of shareholders, resigned his position. Michael resumed his duties as CEO at that time. By 2007, Dell had slipped to the 34th largest company of the Fortune 500.
The above illustration is striking similar to BBC. Under strong leadership, Dell Computer (and BBC) thrived. Under weak leadership, both have foundered.
So, why are results of Gaines at BBC different from Adrian Rogers' leadership? It all boils down to leadership. Strong, moral leadership yields prosperity. Weak leadership yields poor results.
ALLOFGRACE, you know the other thing I hear from family/friends is "FEAR." Fear of leaving; then finding out things got better at Bellevue, and they had "given up." Fear of where to go? What will their Bible Fellowship teachers think? The months after Dr. Rogers retired it seems, should have been the time to fall apart, if it were so simple... But It wasn't when he retired, when he died, OR even the first year of Dr. Gaines ministry. It began when Dr. Gaines' "people" took the tough guy stand with already hurting people. Does anyone else remember it that way? I seriously believe some people are STILL in shock about the entire situaton. It just hurts too much.
P.S. ALL OF GRACE & CHURCHMOUSE I am agreeing with you, for what it's worth. : } And I always thought the snob thing was funny, like, "well they only let a few thousand people in that place, no wonder it's so snobby." But when I knew of some things that went on in the youth/college kids age group with totally IGNORING other kids, it wasn't so funny anymore. BUT, how do we know that won't happen again, once this new Bellevue actually gets to know one another, and forms groups of friends? There are a thousand what ifs, BUT anyone who says Bellevue is better now than before I just can't get it.
Hope.....
We attended Hope prior to joining BBC just after Rogers announced retirement. And as a temporary place attend there now.
Sometimes in this journey I have found the necessity to 'listen' for God's voice regardless of the source. I can honestly say that I 'hear' God speak to me thru much of what is taught on Sunday mornings at Hope. That is why I go. Craig is an excellent communicator.
It seems to me that some of you have had a blessed journey from your church experience. Maybe you haven't had to face the real world.
I remember hearing a lady share her testimony several years ago. She talked about moving to a community where there was no Baptist church. So for over 10 years she stayed home without any effort to be a part of a fellowship of believers. That is a bit extreme, at least seems to me. God does have a remnant and I don't think they exist ONLY in a Baptist church.
Sometimes God pushes us out of the comfort zone. Frustrating as it is, I was pushed out a few years ago!
Hello All,
I've quit posting on both blogs (this one and Mike's) mostly due to all this reading gives me a headache. While there have been valid points on both "sides", there has been MUCH mud thown by all of us (me included) and I am just bored with it all.
I just came by to see how things were going over here and to wish everyone a Merry Christmas. By the way, my dad is doing great and will retire on Jan. 4th, so drop him an email if you get a chance.
Also, please pray for Chris Thomas (Zach's dad) who is the Court Clerk. He is waging a battle against holding a Kwanza(sp?) celebration at the county building. Check out the Commercial Appeal for more details. He is a remarkable man and I admire his stance.
Have a great day! Karen
THERE'S A NEW THREAD IF YOU'D LIKE TO MOVE UP!
Thank you,
NBBCOF
phil arms had a great gift as an evangelist and he touched many people .He just got caught up in believing how important he was. It is all of grace and all of God. When phil preached he had an annointing like I have never seen before.When he gave an altar call people in large numbers would come forward to get saved on a typical sunday morning. it is ashame satan got the advantage on him. I hope one day he will be restored to preach in the power and annointing of the Holy Spirit. God does not throw away the clay!!!
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