This is the story of one abusive pastor, Phil Arms, but there are some similarities to what Bellevue is experiencing. This is Phil Arms' bio, copied from his website, Phil Arms Ministries."Phil Arms grew up in West Texas. His dynamic Christian mother raised her six children in the local church. However, Phil did not commit his life to Christ during his younger years and chose to join himself with the sub-culture of the sixties and seventies in Houston, Texas. After experiencing one dead end after another, running from the love and voice of God, he began to search for reality and gave his life to Christ on a street corner in 1972. Immediately after his conversion, he began a ministry on the streets of Houston, Texas, witnessing to those in need of Jesus. Within a short time God began to open wide the doors for Phil to minister in churches, schools and evangelistic rallies.
"He was licensed to preach in a local Southern Baptist Church and commissioned as an evangelist, birthing Phil Arms Minstries. This inter-denominational ministry went on to create weekend rallies geared to youth for many years, adding television and radio ministries, and also numerous church revivals and area-wide campaigns where Phil always focused on preaching a Bible-centered, Christ-exalting message.
"After spending fifteen years in the ministry of full-time evangelism, Phil and his wife, Suzanne, felt God strongly urging them to start a local church in the Houston area in 1986 and for fourteen years witnessed a continual, powerful move of the Spirit of God as it touched thousands of lives and homes.
"Since the year 2000, Dr. Arms, has devoted much of his time to writing and speaking at Bible Conferences and in churches as well as guesting for radio programs.
"Phil has co-authored several best-selling books with men such as Tim LaHaye and others. These books include Earth's Final Days, The Triumphant Return of Christ, and Piercing the Darkness.
"He has also written Promise Keepers--Another Trojan Horse , Wet Flies Can't Fly, The Winner in You and Pokemon and Harry Potter--Fatal Attractions."
But that's not Phil Arms' whole story...
From The Houston Press we learn that there's a whole lot more to his story than the above.
Read In Arms' Way.
Here's one couple's experience with Phil Arms:
Spiritual Abuse - Is there such a thing?
And another's:
Houston Church - The Problem
Related articles: What is "Spiritual Abuse"?
Biblical Leadership Styles
Tell it to the Church
649 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 649 Newer› Newest»Hmmmmm. Bowling party.Tiara. Polished shoes. Scented bowling balls. Polka dots. Mr. NASS. Minnesota. Trolling. Ice fishing. Rotele casserole. Ring. The number 300. Bon Jovi song massacred. Yep.
Smacks of clandestine activity.
SOTL. Have you sent the decoder watches yet? I'm gettin' corn fused. (yet another code word.)
Just sayin'. (Yet another code word.)
oc. (not a code word. Possibly.)
"oc. (not a code word. Possibly.)"
Like, yea, oc is a code word!!
Of course, us cloak and dagger folks have many code words, no?
A conspiracy . . . . . . NOT.
A battle . . . . . . . . YES.
I'm marinating my bowling shoes now.
Decode that.
Sweet churchmouse....no rain in the forecast for Saturday and it's supposed to warm up. So you won't have to stay under the refrigerator!
From the December 9th BellevueToday...
"Bellevue Loves Memphis" Apparel
"Bellevue Loves Memphis" clothing is now available in the Bellevue Bookstore. This is a great way to show the people of Memphis that God loves them and Bellevue does, too.
Lest you think I'm making this up...
Look.
New BBC Open Forum said...
From the December 9th BellevueToday...
"Bellevue Loves Memphis" Apparel
"Bellevue Loves Memphis" clothing is now available in the Bellevue Bookstore. This is a great way to show the people of Memphis that God loves them and Bellevue does, too.
Lest you think I'm making this up...
Look.
10:17 PM, December 06, 2007
I'll stick with my Hammer Black Widow shirts :D
Decode Dat.
Just sayin'.
oc.
"Under the refrigerator", and "Marinating my bowling shoes." Code phrases, I'm sure.
Quick NASS, please look those phrases up in the Secret Bowling Code manual (otherwise known as the SBC) and decipher the meaning for agents in the field.
Oh forget it. I remember. The procedure is to combine the phrases into something like this:
"Marinate my bowling shoes under the refrigerator."
Translation:
"Soak leather sporting footwear beneath the electric cold."
Makes perfect sense now.
Carry on, agents.
Forgive my delay in sending out the coded watches.
They will be delivered tomorrow by secret messenger.
They will contain the location of the bowling party, AKA clandestine meeting. Follow all directions.
When finished, please destroy.
We wouldn't want it to fall into the WRONG hands :)
NASS, you got to tell a story (to make a point) about churchmouse and the owls the other day. Now, I have a story for you... OK, you revelers, listen up…
A CHRISTMAS STORY
Once upon a time there was a big church called Beautiful. People came from far and wide to hear the Bible taught by the Truthful Minister of the Word. They also came to lift their voices in songs to the Lord under the leadership of the Faithful Minister of Music.
God in his infinite wisdom knew that it was time to bring the Truthful Minister home to His bosom. This made the people of the Beautiful Church very sad. Soon, a New Minister was appointed. He made the decision to replace Faithful Minister of Music with Young Minister of Music. This made the people of the Beautiful Church doubly sad, because they loved the Faithful Minister.
Two years later, Faithful Minister was invited back to the city to lead the Christmas celebration of the birthday of the Messiah. Faithful Minister called his former Minister of Instrumental Music at Beautiful Church to ask for some musicians to help lift up praises to the Messiah – our Redeemer.
The Minister of Instrumental music refused, saying that his musicians were all too busy. He said that the relationship between the Brothers in Christ was not good and they would not participate…in the celebration...of the birth of Jesus Christ.
Then Faithful Minister called upon the Young Minister to see if they might borrow some music books for a couple of hours...to help the singers lift up praises to the Messiah. Young Minister declined, saying that he would be using the books. Faithful Minister promised to return the books in plenty of time. Young Minister said, “No.”
Will Faithful Minister find musicians to help him lift praises to the Messiah? Will he find music for his singers? Will God bless this tribute to His Son?
To be continued...
New BBC Open Forum said...
From the December 9th BellevueToday...
"Bellevue Loves Memphis" Apparel
"Bellevue Loves Memphis" clothing is now available in the Bellevue Bookstore. This is a great way to show the people of Memphis that God loves them and Bellevue does, too.
Lest you think I'm making this up...
Look.
10:17 PM, December 06, 2007
So, Bellevue loves Memphis. But if you talk to most Memphians, you'll find that Memphis pretty much loathes Bellevue!
Avoid, as you would the plague, a clergyman who is also a man of business.
-St. Jerome, 345-420 A.D.
churchmouse,
Sure hope this is a fairy tale.
I am aware of a real live Messiah presentation next week......
and aware of the not so nice behavior of the 2 mentioned....
sure hope this is a fairy tale.
BUT I'll just bet there are enough musicians scattered at other churches and music at various churches that would be easily available to this faithful minister of music...
Story of 'Faithful....' and 'Young.....'
Can I be candid?
The instrumental guy is a jerk. The young guy is a jerk.
My opinion they are both self-absorbed and without a lot of justification.
And to think that faithful indulged both of them for several years with positions and pay! Too bad he didn't see reality then.
eprov wrote:
"And to think that faithful indulged both of them for several years with positions and pay!"
News flash. The faithful that are left still are.
In this morning's Commercial Appeal...
I was asked to post this message I received in an e-mail:
joshuadavidwhitmire said...
Dear New BBC Open Forum,
I'm emailing you because there needs to be a correction on the Messiah issue that was posted by Churchmouse around 8:18 am Dec 7th. Please post this info for me.
My father did ask if some musicians could be used for the Messiah. The Minister of Instrumental said that the musicians are being used for the Tree and the Majesty. He said it it would be hard to spare them while doing both of these performances. There was nothing hidden or underlying animosity towards my father. My father understood.
My father did ask the Minister of Music if some books could be spared. The Minister of Music said it would be hard to spare this material at the time of the Messiah because the church choir is also using these books for the Majesty service and need them for practice, etc... There was nothing hidden or underlying animosity towards my father. My father understood.
These two men are singing and helping my father out in the Messiah. They are giving there time and voices to help out with the Messiah.
Again, there was no underlying motive from these two men towards my father and he understood why they could not spare some of the musicians and books. I just want to make sure the truth is told about this issue that was brought up on the blog. It was no big deal and my father did not think anything about it. He is just happy to come back and help out with the Messiah and happy to have them sing in the Messiah.
I ask that you please post this for me so the facts about this matter can be read.
Thank you,
Joshua David Whitmire
I was not the source of this story, nor do I know who was, and I did not post it; therefore, I cannot say whether it happened that way or not. However, these were the questions that occurred to me:
1. The musicians themselves should be free to choose if they want to participate or not. Why should Jim Whitmire have to consult Carter Threlkeld and ask his "permission" to borrow "his" musicians? It doesn't make sense!
These are not paid musicians (or are they?), and therefore, should not be under any sort of "contract" which would prevent them from participating in any program outside the church. This would be as ludicrous as telling the younger orchestra members they can't participate in their high school or college band or orchestra concerts.
2. The seminary gives this same performance every year. Why haven't they simply bought their own music by now? I understand donations to the seminary have increased significantly in the past year as people have diverted their giving away from BBC.
When Jim Whitmire was BBC's minister of music and led the Messiah, it didn't matter. But Jim's been gone for two years now, and it's no secret there's been no love lost between BBC and the seminary. To quote Shakespeare (which I can't believe I'm doing, as I never could stand reading his work), "Neither a borrower nor a lender be."
3. If Jim didn't think anything about it, then someone apparently got the impression he did. If it was "no big deal," how did anyone else know about it? If Jim didn't tell it, who did?
Joshua, I am not disputing your story, and I appreciate the clarification. These were just the questions that came to my mind when I read about it. I will leave it up to "churchmouse" to provide confirmation of the story or to retract it.
I wonder if Jamie will wear a tie this year? He was only one of two men who didn't last year. (Yeah, I know, that's being petty.)
I don't see any conflict between the story I posted and the account given by Josh Whitmire. This is the same event given from two points of view. Each has unique details not given in the other.
It is what it is.
Interesting article in the CA about the SCT. Can someone explain the "show tunes with a message of faith"? Do the dancers dance to the show tunes? There is "fresh orchestration" - like butchering something good? And, JP took it on last year, but this year they had to hire someone else - no explanations? And then there are the comments below the article - whew - Cordova golf guy appears to have major concrete blinders.
Anyway, just my comments. Am curious to know how the "show" goes this year. I'm just gonna watch my video from the past.
Quote from the Commercial Appeal article...
"This year's new story line takes the audience to New York City, so the opportunity is wide open for fresh songs, show tunes, medleys and the search for dreams at Rockefeller Center -- with a message of faith."
Haven't we heard enough about New York City?
Excuse me? "Search for dreams?"
Didn't we cover this already with "Amen Kelly" and the Garden of Gesthemane?
Will we be hearing about black snakes next?
What is the " Messiah" that ya'll keep referring to? Is it a performance somewhere in Memphis?
I'm confused.
SOTL,
Apparently the seminary puts on a performance of the Messiah every year. I believe it's going to be one day this coming week.
Next week at the seminary...I think the 12th at 10 am....
LIGHT AND TRUTH
There are many current and former BBC members who came to love the Whitmires during their time at Bellevue Baptist. Many of us trusted Jim with our most valuable possessions on this earth – our children – on long trips across mountain and desert in worn out busses. We volunteered to help with special events, chaperoning trips, decorating the Singing Tree, working in the ticket office, driving in carpools, sorting, washing, and repairing costumes – need I go on? We sang under Jim’s direction in church services three times a week. We were family. We love and respect the Whitmires, and grieve over the stories that have circulated for two years. There are a lot of stories about their final days at Bellevue. None are happy.
There has been no resolution to the situation at BBC. So the grief goes on.
The Bellevue Baptist of old was about Light and Truth. We opened every Sunday morning service with “Send out Thy Light.” It is written on the portals of the church. What happened on this blog was that some light was shone into a dark corner of BBC, and what we saw wasn’t pretty. Is it Christ-like to pretend otherwise? We’ve known what was back in that corner. This week we pulled it out into the light and looked at it.
Maybe, Mr. Whitmire did understand that musicians were busy, and the music couldn’t be shared. Maybe he was rushed and frustrated. But, that is one more story, one of many, that continues to surface.
I have always thought that if we were obedient to the Word, we would shine some Light back into the dark corners and examine some of the things that have caused us so much pain. Otherwise, how can they ever be resolved?
We are to be Christ-like, are we not? Christ stirred up some big trouble when He was in the temple, He was never One to go along with the crowd. We are told that the Holy Spirit will give us boldness to proclaim the Truth. Let’s have some Light and Truth for Christmas.
Just a little music to set the mood as you shine up those bowling balls....
Churchmouse:
The biggest AMEN I can post on your 11:20 post. Our hearts are beating with the same message.
There is much darkness. If not us, who?
Please set your decoder watches!
The code.
Thanks Nass,
I've been waiting for it...all set!!!
Who knew? Sheeps got talent!
How funny!!!! LOL!!!!
Lamb prodigy.
More seasonal mood music. Enjoy!
Churchmouse,
You said, "He was never One to go along with the crowd."
Comment: No, He wasn't.
It takes guts to stand for what is right. I admire your stand here on the blog. I also notice that there is a deafening silence to your remarks. I am sure there are a lot of people reading, but only one response aside from this one.
It was my understanding that the Whitmires were mistreated. And has that not been the norm? That is what the purpose driven movement does. Please...don't ever forget what happened to Bellevue. Please don't become a part of the 'slow boil' in letting it all fade from your memories.
Continue to stand for Jesus. At all costs. And let us not forget.
Ima
Boy, Lily, those marinated bowling shoes are great if you're on the Atkins Diet!
First up...
And it's a strike!
"Churchmouse" is up next...
She approaches the line... she releases the ball....
She... duck!
The crowd responds....
Next up... Lynn....
Another strike!
And that's a wrap...
Good night!
Good night sheeps!
Ima,
We discssed some of the very points you brought up....wish you could have been there...
bet you would like my special chocolate cake as much as pie!!!!)
We missed our sweet cakes so much tonight.....you would have loved SOTL's "twinkling personality "....will send you a picture!!
Good night Church Mouse!
It was good bowling with you.
Someone sent me this last night. I thought perhaps it was just a fluke, one stupid youth minister who crossed the line, but I was wrong.
It seems there's a whole "industry" dedicated to this kind of stuff.
NASS...
Thanks for the article.
Ten years ago this would have shocked me. Today, I expect it. This trend in the church growth movement, including the emerging church and all the others, will get worse in my opinion. There is such a vast range in the idiocies...from eastern mysticism to pinning diapers on teenagers.
I have difficulty in believing that this type behavior amongst the youth in any church has been in existence for sixty years. I simply don't believe that to be true at all. What I believe is that this is the trend which is so prevalent among churches today involved with the church growth movements. Pragmatism at it's best...whatever it takes to get them in. All about fun...what makes one 'feel good'. Jesus would have been turning over tables had he been present at this youth gathering. No doubt about it.
Every so often, I think to myself, "What will all of this stop?" Then reality steps in and I know the answer to that...it won't stop. What will happen is the glorious appearing in the eastern sky.
Ima
There is no doubt that JW and many other staff members were forced out when the new kid on the block arrived.
The only thing I don't understand is why these individuals did not go public with the details of their mistreatment. Keeping quite about such matters only allows the process to continue to be hidden.
Evil can only exist when good people do nothing or in this case, when good people keep quite.
Amazed said, "The only thing I don't understand is why these individuals did not go public with the details of their mistreatment. Keeping quite about such matters only allows the process to continue to be hidden."
Right!
Amazed,
Maybe they were protecting their loved ones.
According to BBC's website, they're going to be streaming live video of this afternoon's performance of the Singing Christmas Tree from 4:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. CST.
If you'd like to tune in, go to www.bellevue.org and click on the "Watch Now" link. Register with 316Networks (if you haven't before), log in, and watch then.
amazed,
I think their reasons vary. Some people just don't like confrontation. They'd rather quietly go away than confront anything distasteful. Or as someone so succintly put it, they're living in their own little perfect "bubble worlds." It's easier to ignore or deny the rotten elephant in the middle of the room than it is to clean up the mess.
Some may have skeletons in their own closets that they fear could be exposed if they speak out. They may have even been threatened and intimidated by the "powers that be" with exposure of those skeletons if they ever speak out. Funny thing about that is, these things have a way of eventually coming out anyway. Just ask any number of today's current and former politicians about that! The truth, regardless of who you are, almost always has a way of coming out sooner or later.
Some people have monetary concerns. They have jobs and connections in the business world that depend on them not stirring up things. If they speak out here, they may be labeled "troublemakers" (or "recalcitrants" -- that's a good one) which may affect their ability to obtain lucrative positions elsewhere.
But as a group of us was recently discussing, if we are standing for truth, the Lord will provide. People shouldn't be afraid of speaking the truth just because their jobs might be in jeopardy if they do. Bellevue had and still has staff ministers who could have spoken out. Would Steve Gaines have shown them the door? Probably, at least if they'd spoken out individually. (How can the senior pastor of any church have the sole authority to hire and fire people? I've never understood that.) But if they'd stood as one -- the likeminded staff and deacons together -- who knows how things would have gone? It seems we'll never know.
There were many women who wouldn't speak out because they thought it was the "men's place" to do so. The main problem with that was, with a few notable exceptions, the men didn't take the lead. It's been very disappointing to realize that the men we thought were our strongest leaders have turned out to be spineless. And besides, Steve Gaines has shown that he won't even meet with concerned men. What makes anyone think he'd give a "lowly" woman the time of day? That would be considered by some to be {gasp!} giving a woman "authority" over a man. And no one can get past David Coombs anyway, so what would be the point?
Others have "images" to protect, and they may think speaking out will make them look petty in the eyes of some. They don't want to be perceived as "victims." These are the type people who want to please everyone, so they express their concerns privately but refuse to speak out publicly. And generally it works. Everybody loves ________.
But the question is, do the people who know how they really feel really respect them? Personally, I'd rather be disliked by people who don't know me and be respected by those who do than "loved" by everyone. This isn't "love." As Abraham Lincoln observed, "... you can't please all of the people all of the time." In the end, you have to live with yourself.
NASS,
You say the reasons for speaking out might be:
*avoiding confrontation
*skeletons in their own closet
*monitary concerns - loss of a job
*doctrinal concerns - women speaking out in church
*protecting an image
Reply:
I agree! Some people equate Christian with non-confrontational.
Christians are "NICE" people.
To your list I might tack on:
* pressure from ones family - don't want to upset the children, mother-in-law, parents
*peer pressure - not want to cut off ties with old friends
*activities - a mega has so much to offer in the way of activities
*emotional ties to the church
*loss of a position with status - deacon, coach, teacher, committee member
I guess it is all about what is most important to you. friends, money, reputation, social status, activities, emotional ties, doing what you know is right....nobody said following Christ would be easy.
Thank you, 'mouse. All good points. It all depends on what's most important to people.
Dear NASS and others: I posted this on the "other" blog in response to a question by Pastor David. If you will indulge me I think it is important to post here too. He was asking as a Pastor when confronted with a situation as Dr. Gaines what should he do.
David: The answer to your question is a hard one to answer. I think you have to look at how others have dealt with it in the past.
The Catholic Church certainly has blotched it. Victims of Catholic clergy certainly are not comfortable in approaching the employer of their offenders for help.
And without rehashing the Bellevue situation, look at the message that was sent. They chose to believe the words of the pedophile instead of reaching out to the victim. That unfortunately spoke volumes too.
As for that environment I keep talking about, why is it that victims continually contact SNAP coordinators, local children advocates? I don't for one second believe it is me. Maybe that they have heard our stories and know our compassion and understanding.
We must continually use what resources that are available for us to protect our children. That is how we effect change. I am going to be working with the governor's wife after the first of the year on a project where my story is told as well as testimony from pedophiles. It is her and my joint prayer that some light is shone on this horrible crime. Ms. Conte knows I do not support the party of her husband yet we can forget our differences for the sake of our children.
Being silent, making excuses for not dealing with it head on is not the answer. 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 5 boys will be sexually abused in America before they turn 18. We all must be diligent and on guard.
What I would like to have seen Dr. Gaines or any other pastor in the situation he was in do? Tell the pedophile, he loves him, prays for him and will get him help but inform him that his crime must be reported. Then reach out to his victim(s) and lift them up and also aid them with what resources you can muster. Genuinely reach out. Look there are great groups of professionals out there that are more than ready to help. I am blessed to be able to work with one of the sweetest ladies in Shelby County, Anna Whalley of the Crime Victims Center. And for what is worth, Anna is Jewish. She is my right hand. I could not do what I do without her. It takes ALL of us working together. ALL PEOPLE. ALL RACES. ALL FAITHS.
Trust me if a pastor deals with it like I have detailed above, I would hail them a hero, that goes for Dr. Gaines, Dr. Rogers and even David Squires. It does take a lot of courage to do it that way but gosh what a message it sends to victims and even your members. One of compassion but also one of integrity. I challenge the next pastor that finds their self in that situation to do that way. But be forewarned if you do. Your life will change. And your crown will have a few more jewels.
David thanks for your honest question. I appreciate it.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of Memphis & West Tennessee
davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500
This was my follow-up post lest someone thinks I have all the answers.
Gang let me say this. Contrary to one frequent poster, you cannot discern a pedophile. No one can. Oh how I wish I could have.
See if I could have, I would have spared by sister and my niece. But I did not know my brother was one. In fact not until 2 years after he passed away and my niece told me right in the middle of the Bellevue situation did I find I had pedophile in my own family. And I mean for years.
See I don't have the answers either. That is why it takes all of us working together. One thing I learned from the 60's there is strength in numbers.
So please be on alert.
David Brown
I am about sick and tired of folks who make excuses to me as to why they are still at BBC.
The most insulting excuse of all is that " our kids are involved in all the activities there"
WELL DUH!!!!!
Do you not think that the families that left ALSO had kids involved in activities there? Are you suggesting that YOUR kids are more important than MINE? Do you not think that it has torn us up by having to pull our children from the " activities" that they have known their ENTIRE lives?
What our kids now see is that WE stand for something. We do not approve of what is going on there and WE have taken the steps necessary to take a stand for what we believe.
Stay there. If you haven't left by now..just stay there..I don't want to hear all the reasons why you stay. I"ve heard them all before, and for every EXCUSE you give, my family already had to face that, and we made the decision that NOTHING was more important to us than to remove our children from what we felt was an apostate church.
If the PW situation did not offend you enough to leave..then you should just stay there. Nothing that happens thre now is worse than that.
When you come up to me in a store, and initiate a conversation by making excuses to me, please notice that i am slowly backing away from you becuase i do NOT want to hear it, I do NOT want to talk about it. The time for talking is over. You have made your choices and my family has made ours..
When you say to me, " We might be joining you soon"..do not expect me to do backflips. I don't really care. After all this time, when others have stuck their necks out,
and you sat in the corner and said nothing, you expect us to now welcome you with open arms? " Now that WE have paved the way for you, don't expect us to jump up and down. I no longer care...
Please, leave me alone about it. I'm not interested in why you are still there. It's none of my business, and guess what?
I DON'T CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What my inquiring mind wants to know. Who bowled the highest score? Or as I suspect you all ate too much and no one kept score? That is just like a bunch of Baptist when there is food around.
Sorry my lovely bride and I could not have joined you all.
Pray you all have safe and warm Christmas.
David and his much better half, Elizabeth Brown
The SCT is being streamed again from 6:30 to 8:30 tonight.
Sorry SOTL,
I can imagine the situation that prompted your post.
I still have friends that go to an 8 oclock SS and sneak out to go to another church service but don't want their friends to know.....
BUT try and explain to me why they do it.....
Over all that!
REACH OUT TO THE VICTIM.
How I want to shout this from the roof tops all over the world! I know I am "singing to the choir" here, but this is the bottom line. It matters not who the perpetrator is, what position the perpertrator holds, how much money the perpertator makes or what the public perceives the perpertrators image to be - YOU MUST STAND UP FOR AND SUPPORT THE VICTIM, NOT THE PERP!!
When I worked as a counselor and group therapist, it was the hardist thing I ever did to have "family" group with the perp in the room and not grab the perp by the throat and expose him/her to the rest of the group. This is where I think that "protocol" is also wrong.
Thank you David for all that you do and for all that Christa does. If the majority only knew and if those that only knew would act - and I'm not talking victims here.
I will get off the soap box now and get on my kneew.
oh, and here's another thing:
While glossing over the PW situation with something VERY MINOR that you perceive as far more important than SG protecting a sexual deviant, please do not stand there and talk to my chest.
Don't think that I don't know what you are doing.
It's all "finished business" for those who never wanted to deal with it in the first place.
And how the ignorance continues when anyone deludes themselves into thinking that since( or IF ) no child or mom came forward proclaiming they were preyed upon during the time Gaines and whoever were keeping things "tight" (quoting DC)...
well see there... it WAS OK for Gaines to handle things the way he did.
It took DB 30 years to tell, it took me many many years before I realized I was an adult and no longer had to keep the secrets.
The bogus investigative committee had NOT ONE advocate for victims ....I was first asked to talk to MD then JJ....finally I chose the damage control man...he knew NOTHING about sexual abuse.
He was nicer than I am sure DC or MD would have been...but do you really think a mom or child... or a mom would let her child go in front of these untrained, uncaring people and BRUTES?????
Their goal was not to help anyone victimized but to prove no one had been vitimized.
I got a phone call and a nice apology when the leadership realized MC had ripped me off for "mediation services" many years ago.
has anyone who acknowledged they had been injured by PW to leadership been treated compassionately by leadership???
any calls of concern???
I mean.....saying "I'm sorry" seems to be such a cure for all sins!!!
OH yeah...that's what cures the one that DID the wrong.....
the heck with the injured.
We're all finished business
SOTL...what happened to you today!!!!
New BBC Open Forum said...
Someone sent me this last night. I thought perhaps it was just a fluke, one stupid youth minister who crossed the line, but I was wrong.
It seems there's a whole "industry" dedicated to this kind of stuff.
9:47 AM, December 09, 2007
And from the 2nd link, there is this ...
Bobbing For Spam
Small groups - all can play.
Large group - upfront game.
Fill up a large bucket with water, drop in a few large chunks of Spam. The rest is like "Bobbing for Apples" (just not with apples).
Paging Dr. Loney ...
-
David Brown,
It would seem that BBC did in fact get in touch with the person that informed them that BBC was "off the hook" because the victim was now an adult....
he was an adult when the sexual abuser confessed to Steve Gaines personally that he had in fact been a sexual abuser....
BUT the sexual predator did TELL Gaines that the crime was done at home...to a family member...I think that's how someone put it....
SO as long as it was done at the home of the victim ...and not on church grounds (and as long as the victim was family...well shoot...what's the problem!!)....
Remember it was the deacon officer Beau Pittman who told me personally ...with a smirk.... that no law was broken...SG was safe... because when it was CONFESSED by the perverted minister ...the victim was an adult....so that business is so taken care of!
and we women that were emotionally raped by that freak with the minister's mask oh....well....we're adults so what do we matter anyway!!!!
Did you realize that the shooting in Colorado Springs was at Ted Haggart's church - according to Fox News?
I guess that is Ted Haggard. Anyway, the New Life Church where he was pastor, is the one where the shooter was killed - by an armed security volunteer.
So you thought that
BELLEVUE LOVES MEMPHIS .
Then why is these year's tree with a New York story,
" 2007 Singing Christmas Tree to open in Rockefeller Center" !!!
Why isn't it:
"2007 Singing Christmas Tree to open in Graceland" ???
Featuring the well renowned Jamie Parker as Elvis.
Oh, but there is no sign of Jamie this year as he has been replaced in this production by Mark Blair the New Minister of Music
(Special Productions)
Let's Jamie know how JW felt, being moved to the side.
Or
"2007 Singing Christmas Tree to open on Beale Street" ???
Featuring David Coombs ......
Or
"2007 Singing Christmas Tree to open at the Pyramid" ???
Featuring King .........
Remember that in today's sermon, Steve Gaines said that to Love Memphis, is to NOT say anything negative about Memphis, or it's politicians, or its schools.
Sort of reminds you of what happened when Steve came to Bellevue, "don't say anything bad about the Bellevue leadership....or you can leave"
What?? Is this today???
Remember that in today's sermon, Steve Gaines said that to Love Memphis, is to NOT say anything negative about Memphis, or it's politicians, or its schools.
****
LOL!! He's all about dictatorship, isn't he?
Junkster said:
And from the 2nd link, there is this ...
Bobbing For Spam
Small groups - all can play.
Large group - upfront game.
Fill up a large bucket with water, drop in a few large chunks of Spam. The rest is like "Bobbing for Apples" (just not with apples).
Paging Dr. Loney ...
7:53 PM, December 09, 2007
WTL says:
when I first read this, these thoughts began bouncing around my craniological area:
-COPYCATS!!!
-"I was bobbing for spam when bobbing for spam wasn't cool"
-Royalties for WTL??????
-Imitation is the purest form of flattery
-Lawsuit?????
-what's their address, and is it free?
-they have obviously read the blog archives
-man, for some reason, I'm really hungry now!!
William T. Loney, MD
Doc,
That e-mail address in your profile still doesn't work. I need to know where to send your Christmas Spam Sampler!
Churchmouse said...
I guess that is Ted Haggard. Anyway, the New Life Church where he was pastor, is the one where the shooter was killed - by an armed security volunteer.
9:22 PM, December 09, 2007
It was Haggard's church
Hey, Dr. Loney!
Look!
sickofthelies said...
I am about sick and tired of folks who make excuses to me as to why they are still at BBC.
5:58 PM, December 09, 2007
There are a lot of people out there right now who are facing a miserable Christmas this year with their families because the issue of leaving BBC has caused a rift in their family. In some cases families have been torn apart and are not speaking to each other because one or more of the family members decided that it was time to leave.
These are families that have been at BBC for decades. These are families where the children were raised their entire lives at Bellevue. In some cases, it is the children and their spouses that leave, and in some cases it is the parents that leave and the children are angry and don't understand why their parents could leave "home" like that.
Needless to say, there will be some topics this year that will not be discussed around the family Christmas dinner tables of Bellevue alumni, and membership at BBC is one of the biggest.
I spent 31 years at Bellevue. My parents started attending when I was two years old. I was Saved, Baptized, and raised at Bellevue. I went on those trips with Jim Whitmire across deserts and mountains that someone mentioned earlier.
In the last year, all of my family, including my parents, have left BBC. I was the last to leave.
I am grateful that we all made it out with our souls intact.
I pray every day for those who haven't.
My mother sheds tears all the time when she talks about how she has been treated by those who still attend since they found out she left.
There will be many topics around our family Christmas dinner table this year.
But Bellevue will NOT be one of them!
Merry Christmas, my fellow refugees.
Dr. Loney......we tried to play Bobbing for Spam and Spamopoly last night at the bowling party...but we couldn't seem to get the hang of it. We needed your expertise!
Are you back in Memphis from your "vacation"?
Remember, I do know where you can get a spacious 1 room villa in the South of Germantown for very little.....let me know if you are interested!
Scion: My heart breaks for all those families torn apart. I am so sorry. I am thankful your family has not been torn apart, but I know you must have been through alot. God bless you all.
Oh, okay, Dr. Loney...it's a storage shed...but very nice, once you fix the door.....and carpet covers the hole in the floor nicely....and there is direct TV that you can...um....borrow. Could be the nicest place you've ever had.....except the Dairy Queen, of course.
scion,
Talked to a man today that can't get near the subject of BBC with his sister without problems....
yes...fellow refugees....
and we are finished business for the ones there and they are not concerned with those that have been hurt.
SG has been painted as such a victim...OH the sermons!!!
Deflection at it's best.
Blessed Christmas to you and your family!!
Interesting commentary on the India missionary trip and thoughts on baptism here.
NASS:
The commentary on the India trip is interesting. Thanks for calling it to our attention.
I was amazed and confounded to discover, years ago, that my Catholic friends waited for pronouncements from the Vatican or whomever to define scriptural matters for them. I wondered how the word of man could presume to
(sometimes) modify the Word of God.
Now, here we are, on a Baptist blog, discussing the same sort of thing:
Often, in the New Testament, people were baptized on the spot. (Example: the household of Cornelius in Acts 10, the Etheopian treasurer in Acts 8)
Should the absence of a "sponsoring" church prevent a new convert from being obedient to Christ? I don't think that is the example God gave us.....
- - - OOOOOOOOH My head hurts. All the things I thought I knew - I didn't know after all. My beliefs are like so much confetti floating through the air.
God, please give us Truth and Light for Christmas.
Someone asked me this morning if what "gopher" mentioned yesterday is accurate:
"Steve Gaines said that to Love Memphis, is to NOT say anything negative about Memphis, or it's politicians, or its schools."
This is a transcription of that part of the sermon to which "gopher" refers:
"Go back to Jeremiah 29 and notice how he, even back in that chapter, started insp... inspiring the people of God. Jeremiah 29. You ought to know these verses. In fact, these are my life's verses right here -- Jeremiah 29 verses 11 through 14. And 'Bellevue Loves Memphis' came out of verse 7 if you want to know it. Jeremiah 29 verse 7 -- 'Seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you and pray to the Lord on its behalf for in its welfare you will have welfare.'
"Don't complain about Memphis, Tennessee. Don't talk negatively about Memphis, Tennessee. Ask God to bless Memphis, Tennessee. And start praying for Memphis, Tennessee. Don't say another negative word about Memphis, Tennessee. Don't talk about anybody negatively. Don't talk about its leaders. Pray for them. Pray for God to bless this city. How many of you believe that God can do exceedingly and abundantly beyond all that we can ask or think? {lifts hand and audience follows} Then we need to pray. We need to pray. And God will give you inspiration."
Judge for yourselves.
Don't say another negative word about Memphis, Tennessee. Don't talk about anybody negatively. Don't talk about its leaders. Pray for them.
***
ok..here goes:
Mayor Herrington is a stand up guy. He's been a great mayor. I love what he has done with crime in the city of Memphis. The FBI is wrong about it being the most dangerous city in America. And John Ford..man!! what a guy!!! I hear he's a great shot while riding down interstate 40..why, i heard he can shoot a gun out of his moon roof while driving 90 mph!! WOW!! now THAT's being creative!! And all his little children!!! He is one great Babydaddy!!! Oh, and let's not forget Ricky Pete..no project is too small for him to vote in your behalf. Operation Tennessee Waltz was just a bunch of FBI agents that had it in for our city leaders. They have done nothing wrong!!!
Man!! I LOVE MEMPHIS!!! low crime, low taxes, honest politicians..who could ask for more?
SOTL,
I believe you forgot a few.
nass,
I wanted to save some for you!!!
Pick it up and run with it!!
We won't be left wondering how to pray for Memphis.
FUTURE PRAYER BUILDING
The 2005 Love Offering set aside funds to build a Prayer Chapel. We are carefully considering how this blessing could be used to best support our Prayer Ministry.
Below are some of the functions such a building may have:
An atmosphere conducive to prayer and meditation
Areas for personal intercession, prayer partners, and small group sessions
Areas where printed requests for prayer are available
Maps and missionaries highlighted for missions praying, targeting areas such as the 10-40 window
Prayer guides for ministers/staff /family pictures and needs
A place for prayer rallies, prayerwalks, nightwatch prayer vigils, National Day of Prayer gatherings, prayer journeys, special emphasis prayer meetings, etc.
A large wall map showing neighborhoods highlighted with members’ names who have committed to pray for these areas as a dynamic way to emphasize the urgency of praying for the Greater Memphis area
-- BBC website under Prayer Ministry -- click on update.
Oh, no, SOTL! You're doing so well. I wouldn't want to steal your thunder. Please, by all means, continue.... :-)
I hope Dr. Gaines will just as strongly encourage ALL MEMBERS, to put their kids, in the city school of their areas of Memphis. Obviously, Dr. Gaines has put his own into the city school system and out of ECS. Since he is the first to come out of his comfort zone in this area, things could REALLY improve in the system.I can't imagine he would pushing all of this while sending his kids to the most elite, most racially unbalanced school in the area..he knows how that would KILL the message.
"Don't complain about Memphis, Tennessee. Don't talk negatively about Memphis, Tennessee. Ask God to bless Memphis, Tennessee. And start praying for Memphis, Tennessee. Don't say another negative word about Memphis, Tennessee. Don't talk about anybody negatively. Don't talk about its leaders. Pray for them. Pray for God to bless this city. How many of you believe that God can do exceedingly and abundantly beyond all that we can ask or think? {lifts hand and audience follows} Then we need to pray. We need to pray. And God will give you inspiration."
Did he ever mention repentance?
BTW: He sure did twist Jeremiah to fit his campaign. However, I can see why he could not use Sodom as an example.
I'm sure glad that SG wasn't around to influence George Washington, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin,et al, as well as the those who bravely and courageously put their name on the Declaration of Independence.
Step 1. Step 2. Step 3.
If Step 1 is 'Bellevue Loves Memphis,'
Step 2 will be 'Jesus is Lord Over Memphis.'
That whole deal is out of an old play book.
Ever heard of Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, et al?
All the while his salary, residence, children's schooling, etc., is a far cry from......
Well, you get the drift.
It's called empire building. Then his son can succeed him.
Ah, sorry. Maybe not. Wonder if the pulpit committee bought into that? LOL
Some other published News from the little church called Bellevue:
*NAME FOR MIDTOWN PROPERTY CONTEST*
By Thinking of a name for our NEW property in that midtown area of Memphis. The deadline is December 30. The winner will receive a GREAT prize.
*******************************
* "G.R.O.W. UPDATE" *
The church had 152 people go out taking with them 300 of the 414 prospect families to contact.
Returned reports showed (suggest) that 76 families are interested in making Bellevue their home. There were 3 professions of faith made during the "blitz" making the total "known" professions related to the "Family Fun Festival" at 23 (real) people!!
Thank you for reaching out to these families to "show that Bellevue LOVES Memphis"
********************* *
.......Our Desire is to bring the World into the church where they can hear the gospel and see God's love lived out before them daily.
If we truly want to reach the LOST and be obedient to the Great Commission, we have to let them IN the church. We can't exclude them or avoid them because they are NOT like us.
As Bro Steve says "we are not a fraternity or country club for members only", .... "but a hospital for those who are hurting and need the Great Physician"
Be ready for a change. GOD is getting ready to turn us upside down and His light is just waiting to burst forth.
..... The concept of Church could be totally foreign to them.
.... we can't expect them to be "perfect".
**************************
Jeremiah 50:6
Okay, SOTL, it's my turn! ;) See, I thought I already loved Memphis...or why would I choose to live here? I can live anywhere in this country (the land giveaway in Alaska was very tempting!) but I choose to live here. Sure, Memphis has it's problems but it is "home" to me. So I love it.
However, I have made a distinction between the people and the deeds. There are wonderful people here (many on this blog)...there are people here that find themselves in hard situations not of their making. That's why I do monthly volunteer work at the Baptist Children's Home. I have helped at Memphis Union Mission too. Because I love people.
What I don't love is corruption. On any level. From anyone. I don't love it when politicians spend my tax dollars poorly. I don't love the fact that I homeschooled my children to full college scholarships for a fraction of what public education costs. I don't love it that I talk to parents weekly that pull their kids out of public education because it is too dangerous for their kids to stay in school (and don't even talk about the fact that they can't go to the bathroom all day. 'nuff said.) I don't love the Willie Herentons and John Fords that don't keep the sanctity of their marriage vows and produce children that must grow up in broken homes. I don't love the fact that the 10 Commandments can't be displayed at the courthouse. I don't love a judicial system that has lost all resemblance to a moral law. (Michael Vick received a harsher sentence than many who abuse children.)
So, yes, I love Memphis. I pray for Memphis. But I will not subject my family to the dangers in Memphis. And I especially will not confine my ministry to Memphis at the expense of my integrity and church family. (sorry GMommy)
gopher wrote:
"*NAME FOR MIDTOWN PROPERTY CONTEST*"
"The winner will receive a GREAT prize."
You have got to be kidding.
"There were 3 professions of faith made during the 'blitz' making the total 'known' professions related to the 'Family Fun Festival' at 23 (real) people!!"
That's wonderful. "Real" people?
".......Our Desire is to bring the World into the church... "
Unbiblical as it is, I'd say we have a good on that one.
"Be ready for a change. GOD is getting ready to turn us upside down... "
{shudder}
Actually, I thought we had already been "turned upside down," but I didn't blame God for it.
New BBC Open Forum said...
gopher wrote:
"*NAME FOR MIDTOWN PROPERTY CONTEST*"
"The winner will receive a GREAT prize."
You have got to be kidding.
LOOK HERE
New BBC Open Forum said...
gopher wrote:
"There were 3 professions of faith made during the 'blitz' making the total 'known' professions related to the 'Family Fun Festival' at 23 (real) people!!"
That's wonderful. "Real" people?
Please note that the word "Real" was my inserted word.
I'm about to get in trouble.
I will most likely be blasted for this, but this is honest from one who has not been born and raised here.
Memphis is much like every other place I have ever been.
For the most part, no better, no worse. People are the same everywhere. Whether San Luis Obispo, Santa Maria, or Los Angeles California, Tacoma Washington, Minot North Dakota, San Angelo or Abilene Texas, or Horn Lake Mississippi.
Many will sin and do the wrong thing as much as they can get by with. Then there are the good and godly. And in each and every place, the people call it God's country. Go figure. Makes me wonder if they do that also in Hell.
(yes, they even say it in North Dakota).
Seperate the people from the deeds? No. The people do the deeds. Therefore you cannot separate the two. Where there are bad deeds, people do them. Where there are good deeds, people do them. The common denominator is 'people'.
What I do see more in Memphis than in most places, is the political corruption. It seems much more expected and acceptable here than anywhere I have ever been. (even more than in Los Angeles). And I have never lived in a place where it was so dangerous to send your kid to public school, even if you wanted to. And I have never lived in such a place where life meant less. It's the most murderous place I have ever lived.
Yes, it is ok to love a place, I guess. But I wonder what the criteria really is for loving a place or it's people. It may not make sense.
It may be the same as the criteria that the Lord uses for me. In spite of being unlovely, He loves me anyway. No, it makes no sense, but it doesn't mean it's wrong. It reminds me of Hosea.
So I'm not saying that Memphis shouldn't be loved. But no more than any other place. For she is no more lovely than any of her sisters. So she must not be haughty. She is unlovely, but to be loved anyway. Those who love her may love her in spite of her uncomeliness. She often trips on her skirt, her lip stick is smeared,and her slip shows way too often. But she is no more, nor less, than any of her sisters.
Just sayin'.
oc.
watching bbc,
thanks for sharing.
watchingbbc,
I'm not going to throw stones at the many singers and musicians who put in the time practicing and performing.
These were some of my observations:
1. The orchestra warmed up the crowd with... you guessed it... show tunes. They played something from West Side Story. And a swing version of Jingle Bells. Someone said they played the theme from Shaft. And this is a church. Who'd ever know?
2. Mark Blair did the intro, and I lost count of how many times he used the word "awesome." Good thing he's got musical talent because I don't think he has much of a future as a comedian. Jamie Parker was conspicuously absent.
3. The dialogue and acting were so silly it was painful to watch. It was like Gomer Pyle Goes to New York.
4. Not sure what a chorus line of jitterbugging WWII soldiers had to do with anything.
5. As for the Hallelujah Chorus... I didn't have a problem with it. It wasn't nearly as bad as everyone seemed to think it was going to be. In fact, it was one of the better moments. (Did they perhaps tone it down from the original version?) There was percussion accompaniment, but it wasn't overpowering or IMO in poor taste. In fact, had I not been listening for it, I wouldn't have noticed. So as far as I'm concerned, that one's a non-issue.
6. When the large girl bellowed out that... what was that... R&B?... version of Joy to the World, now that was way too much for me! In fact, they did that same arrangement with the same soloist last year, and it was bad then. It hasn't improved. I think she probably has a good voice if she sang something appropriate.
7. I thought the group music in the middle was good. The tree, as always, was beautiful.
8. I agree some, not all, of the solo parts were weak. But these are not professional musicians either.
9. The drummers are amazing!
10. The flying angels have more guts than I!
11. Someone playing a trumpet hit some really loud, painful clunkers throughout the whole thing. Or maybe they weren't clunkers. It was as if one trumpet player was trying to drown out everyone else -- especially at the ends of songs.
12. Steve made a complete spectacle out of himself with his "impromptu" solos. What is it with this bursting into song in nearly every service? It's as if he always has to upstage all the musicians.
Did anyone see the story they ran on Channel 24 at 10:00 tonight about church security?
They interviewed Jim Barnwell and showed film of a service there, and first they showed the congregation. The place was packed! Then they showed the preacher in front of the choir which is when it was obvious they were using old film because there were five full rows of people in the choir, and the preacher was Dr. Rogers. Then they interviewed Jim Barnwell again and showed a short clip of Dr. Gaines preaching (and more of the huge old choir).
The story is here.
The video is on this page.
It's entitled "Strong Security At Mid-South Churches" in the list on the left.
Sadly, if you saw only this, you'd think there's still a packed house every Sunday and that the choir fills the choir loft.
OC, Just Sayin' You may be missing the point of the Memphis thing...Dr. Gaines is clearly leading people to believe that he has come to crusade for the CORRECTION of racist and/or apathetic attitudes within Bellevue...As In--Thank goodness he has come to straighten out his formerly backwards, cold hearted flock. Steve to the rescue! For once at least he is doing something that will go away if ignored. Because everyone knows Brother Adrian* already handled that way back when, as people in the south began to open up some. *HE was a crusader for worshipping as one people. African American is NOT interchangable with the word MEMPHIS. He looks so foolish.
OC said;
What I do see more in Memphis than in most places, is the political corruption. It seems much more expected and acceptable here than anywhere I have ever been.
Reply:
During Dr. Rogers' last days as pastor, he took a stand against the political corruption and immorality in our city government.
He wielded more influence in the city than the current BBC pastor and elder pack will ever be able to buy with their gift bags, love offering, and T-shirts. Why: Because he was genuine.
* * *
Father of Light, Shine Down on me. Let the people see. That in Your presence, darkness flees. Father of Light, SHINE DOWN ON BBC
* * *
My Christmas wish for BBC:
I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT
I was seeker for light in a dark world,
I looked for truth, but settled for lies.
I had been blinded, I couldn't see
Till the Star in Bethlehem's sky opened by eyes.
Chorus:
I have seen the light shining in the darkness,
Bursting through the shadows, delivering the dawn.
I have seen the light whose Holy name is Jesus,
His kingdom is forever; He reigns on
Heaven's throne!
Wishing you Light and Truth
Dear Brothers and Sisters: In a sense of fair play, I am sharing something I post on the Bratton Report today.
Cakes, EZ and Pastor David as well as Jessica have had much conversation concerning accountability. Below are my thoughts:
David, Cakes and EZ:
I have watched your conversations about accountability concerning Dr. Gaines. I guess I am more concerned about credibility. Please let me explain.
When I first started working with SNAP, I used to make the comment that I am sure glad that MY church (Bellevue) would not act like the Catholic Church. I told them we followed the Bible and we would not stand for one second in making excuses for a pedophile. Trust me they thought I was stupid and just plain ignorant. You know what, they were right, sadly.
When I first found out there was a pedophile minister that was allowed to remain on staff for at least 6 months I was outraged. I wondered how in the world ANYONE could be so stupid and flat turn their back on what God’s Word tells us. Then as I got more into it, I saw that not only the Senior Pastor but his newly hired Assistant Pastor were ignorant and making excuses for their screw-up. Dr. Gaines for not reporting it when he first became aware and David Coombs for saying he did not know if there was anything to report. Both of these men were willing to accept the words of a pedophile and ignore what common sense says. Forget what the Word of God says. It was obvious they were going to ignore it. Suddenly my own home church was acting just like the administrators of the Catholic Church where they were willing to show more compassion for the pedophile. I was so sickened and grieved. How could they do this?
It amazed me that Dr. Gaines would think that an admitted (forgiven) pedophile minister would be more fit for service at Bellevue than I just a sinful (forgiven) but DIVORCED husband who was unfit to serve as a deacon. Talk about twisted theology.
We as victims do have issues with trust. And now they ask us to trust them again. I don’t think so. That was one screw-up too much with our children at risk.
As a SNAP coordinator and also a victim I find their behavior/actions beyond defensible.
So you guys can argue accountability all you want but to me and many other victims is about credibility and in that respect they have none.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator for Memphis/West Tennessee
stopthemadness...I am not real sure of your point in the 8:38 am post.
I dont' guess that SG was here to be offended when Harold Ford Senior called us all white devils because he lost the 94 election.
He thinks he can ride into town on his white horse wearing his white hat and fix the problems of this city?
He should start with moving out of his Ivory Tower and INTO the city..and maybe putting his kids into the Memphis PUBLIC schools before he starts telling US how to deal with Memphis and the Memphis polticians. He has NEVER had to deal with the problems related to living in Memphis and now he thinks he can advise those of us who have lived here for most of our lives??????
If he doesn't LIVE in memphis, he should really just SHUT UP.
This guy's Ego never ceases to amaze me.
YOU KNOW YOU ARE LIVING IN 2007 when...
1. You accidentally enter your password on the microwave.
2. You haven't played solitaire with real cards in years.
3. You have a list of 15 phone numbers to reach your family of 3.
4. You e-mail the person who works at the desk next to you.
5. Your reason for not staying in touch with friends and family is that they don't have e-mail addresses.
6. You pull up in your own drive and use your mobile phone to see if anyone is home to help you carry in the groceries.
7 Every commercial on television has a web site at the bottom of the screen.
8. Leaving the house without your mobile phone, which you didn't have the first 20 or 30 (or 60) years of your life, is now a cause for panic and you turn around to go and get it.
10. You get up in the morning and go on line before getting your coffee.
11. You start tilting your head sideways to smile. : )
12 You're reading this and nodding and laughing.
13. Even worse, you know exactly to whom you are going to forward this message.
14. You are too busy to notice there was no number 9 on this list.
15. You actually scrolled back up to check that there wasn't a number 9 on this list.
AND NOW YOU ARE LAUGHING at yourself.
Go on, forward this to your friends. You know you want to!
To those interested parties...I passed my final exam and the semester...on to the next one in about 4 weeks.
AOG,
Congratulations!
David B,
Absolutely NO credibility.
it's not just people with a history of sexual abuse that have trust and credibility issues after the way leadership responded...
I know they don't care that so many have left....
now "BBC is just cleansed"...
but on top of all they didn't do right concerning the staff sexual predator...
they don't see or care about ALL the people they have caused to stumble, and people they have damaged.
I remember hearing a kid on 20/20 when asked if he considered "such and such" to be sex.
He responded...well, the president didn't.....
That the leadership isn't broken hearted about all the pain they caused to so many is still amazing to me ...even after all this time.
I think we are known by our hearts.
Are our hearts soft or hard?
What is in our hearts comes out in our behavior and how we see and treat others.
How to explain these things to children??????????
AOG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I knew you would do it!!!!!
and to your previous post....LOL!!!
SOTL,
What I think is "backward" is that SG is TELLING the people what to do in his sermon.
Why not really teach God's Word and then hearts would change and behavior would be next.
Why would intelligent people WANT that type of "sermon"????????
Congratulations AOG!
Way to go bro!
Just sayin'.
oc.
AOG,
I finally got the "magic medicine"...only took 5 months.
"Steve Gaines said that to Love Memphis, is to NOT say anything negative about Memphis, or it's politicians, or its schools."
Ya know, sermon or not, for someone to tell people not to say anything critical about leaders is quite frankly, un-american and even totalitarian to an extent. I mean, it is our job as AMERICANS to question our leaders, ESPECIALLY if there is cause for criticism. It is one way to keep our leaders in check. Unfortunately, in Bellevue's case, Gaines and his goons have strong armed those critical of Gaines leadership just like a dictator does.
AOG: Congratulations! I knew you would!
My Comments:
To David Brown - amen and amen, bless you my brother, you speak the absolute truth.
To AOG - congrats times ten!!!!
To Lynn and Gimommo - right on.
AOG,
I know what you're going through. Getting through medical school was the toughest two weeks of my life.
When I get back to Memphis, probably in the spring, I'm planning on opening up the "LONEY CENTER FOR INEXPENSIVE AND PROBABLY UNNECESSARY COSMETIC PROCEDURES"...if you're needing a job or extremely painful yet inexpensive liposuction, give me a holler...always willing to give a colleague a break.
William T. Loney, MD
sorry about having no email...some hoodlums knocked down my email mailbox with a baseball bat...dang teenagers!!!
WTL, MD
AOG!
WAY TO GO!!!
WHOOO HOOOOOOOO
Enjoy your break!!! You have earned it!!!
Requoting Steve Gaines from his December 9th a.m. sermon:
"Go back to Jeremiah 29 and notice how he, even back in that chapter, started insp... inspiring the people of God. Jeremiah 29. You ought to know these verses. In fact, these are my life's verses right here -- Jeremiah 29 verses 11 through 14. And 'Bellevue Loves Memphis' came out of verse 7 if you want to know it. Jeremiah 29 verse 7 -- 'Seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you and pray to the Lord on its behalf for in its welfare you will have welfare.'"
Word on the street is that the "Bellevue Loves Memphis" campaign did not originate with interpreting a verse in Jeremiah but was a direct result of a study that Bellevue commissioned about a year to a year and a half ago by The Barna Group. This study determined that the people of Memphis felt that the people of BBC were vain and proud and cared little for Memphis (probably not totally without justification). They also cited the friction at BBC as a reason for this belief.
This is a good example of eisegesis.
And since this study was paid for with BBC members' tithes, will the membership have access to the report?
LOLOLOLOLOL!!! Sorry, weak moment. I'm sure that will happen around the same time flocks of flying pigs invade the city.
NASS....
What is eisegesis?
As a business owner who understands marketing a little bit, I am somewhat dismayed that a reverend, who we assume has the insight of the Holy Spirit, would need to pay for a marketing analysis for a better demographic understanding of His market!
It just goes somewhat counter to some of the principles of scripture, at least to me.
The 'weapons of our warfare' are not carnal, or are they?
SG has entered a battlefield that appears to be filled with land mines.
Seems to me that we are either, or, in this situation. It is difficult to mix the two worlds.
My thots here are probably more rambling than coherent which reflects the confusion I have over a church looking to marketing techniques to impact a community, versus relying on a Biblical basis for existing and leaving the increase up to God.
Too simplistic? Who knows.
nbbcof...eisegesis ?????
eisegesis as opposed to exegesis...exegesis=drawing out what is there; eisegesis=reading into what is there
eis·e·ge·sis
-noun
An interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text.
An example would be picking and choosing single verses from all over the Bible to "prove" your point(s).
Contrast with:
ex·e·ge·sis
-noun
Critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, esp. of the Bible.
An example would be taking one chapter or passage and basing a sermon on it.
Boy we sure know which of those two methods SG uses in his sermons.
Hey Folks...Of all places, the NYtimes.com website has an excellent article on Mike Huckabee that is well worth a read. It is the "Huckabee Factor".
amazed wrote:
"Boy we sure know which of those two methods SG uses in his sermons."
Yes, I was going to cite an example of each by linking to two pages of his sermon notes. Problem was, I could only find examples -- many examples -- of the former.
This one is a classic.
"This study determined that the people of Memphis felt that the people of BBC were vain and proud and cared little for Memphis (probably not totally without justification)."
Kind of ironic, isn't it? They paid lots of money to tell them what? Nothing that means anything new. I mean Rick Warren went door to door and asked people what they did not like about church when he started Saddleback. So, now he has a church full of people with their 'felt needs' met.
BBC could have saved a lot of money and just evangelized with BBC repents and has put their faith in Jesus Christ.
BBC loves Memphis is obviously a phony appeal. It is so hokey, I have to wonder if it will not backfire as a huge joke. But then, there are still people out there that think Ted Haggard should be restored to ministry. So, who knows? It may bring in more audience to be entertained.
Has anyone read the post on Christa Brown's sight????
The SBC continues to twist, spin deceive, and cover up.
But they use such righteous sounding words to tell their lies.
Why are we surprised at anything anymore????
SOTL
Please email me.
-FG
amazed said...
Hey Folks...Of all places, the NYtimes.com website has an excellent article on Mike Huckabee that is well worth a read. It is the "Huckabee Factor".
10:18 AM, December 12, 2007
Mullah Huckabee is not someone I want as President of the United States. There are some things that he has said that have made me decide that I cannot support him.
Namely 3 things so far he has said or done:
1. Pardoned a rapist who eventually went on to rape and kill again.
2. Said AIDS patients should be isolated.
3. Instead of debating the issues of the country, he instead mocks the beliefs of Mitt Romney. I'm sorry, but I find it quite unamerican to actually say essentially someone is "not christian enough" to be president. Last I checked, this is AMERICA.
Ah, America. Ain't it great?
"2. Said AIDS patients should be isolated."
That was 1992 and if you are over 40 you know a lot of people were calling for that...including Paige Patterson. In fact, Castro did isolate and pretty much contained AIDS in Cuba...a huge thing since prostitution is legal there and it was spreading fast.
"3. Instead of debating the issues of the country, he instead mocks the beliefs of Mitt Romney. I'm sorry, but I find it quite unamerican to actually say essentially someone is "not christian enough" to be president. Last I checked, this is AMERICA."
Actually, Huckabee has refused to discuss Romney's religion and rightly so. The only reason Romney made that speech about his 'faith' is because Huckabee is gaining so much ground.
Romney calls himself a Christian and wants us to believe that Mormons are Christians. They are not.
I wrote a bit about what Mormon's believe here:
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2007/12/mitt-romneys-jesus.html
The bottom line is that Romney is in a cult and a relatively young one at that.
The other thing is that Romney is as conservative as he wants everyone to think. How many true conservatives are Governors of Mass?
Huckabee is making a big mistake promoting himself as a 'Christian Leader". But it is his background. I am not thrilled with his seeker roots but there are some things I am impressed with:
He appointed Homeschool parents to the Education Board in Ark.
That is pretty radical if you think about it. There are other things I like about him but right now, he is the lessor of the evils running for Prez.
If any of you have read anything about what he went through after Jim Guy Tucker was ousted in Ark, you have to admit Huckabee handled it with decorum. It had been quite a while since they had a republican governor and some in the opposition even went so far as to nail shut the door to the governors office. There was lots of other, stuff, too. Does that sound familiar?
Remember how the Clintonistas trashed the EOB and White House offices before they left? Remember all the keyboards that had to be replaced because they took the 'W's' off?
Lynn: My brother has cerebral palsy and lives in a wonderful resident home in Arkansas (and has for 30 years). When Mike Huckabee was governor, he had the *brilliant* idea that all such facilities should be closed and the residents placed in the "least restrictive environment." He proposed that the government buy the residents their own homes and all services would come to them, along with 24 hour live-in care. Okay, there are SO MANY things wrong with this plan it's hard to know where to begin.....so I'll leave it to two points. On a personal level, it would be isolating and dangerous...how hard is it to find good in-home nursing care? On a financial level, doesn't it make more sense to bring all those with similar needs under "one roof" and bring the professionals to them? Wouldn't that maximize care time?
If Huckabee is all we get, I guess I'd vote that way. But he certainly wouldn't be my 1st, or even 4th...choice. Because, after all....if he's willing to put some of our least vulnerable citizens at risk- and spend tax money unwisely as well......makes me wonder what else he has in mind......
Lin: You do make good points. There is no one "out there" that I am particularly thrilled with. I guess it will be a vote of "the lesser of two evils."
However, you bring up an excellent point that I have really been watching....those with seeker backgrounds tend to have blurred lines of right and wrong and tend to make emotional, feel good decisions instead of logical, practical ones.
Just an observation.
Hey folks, no one is saying that Mike Huckabee is perfect or is all things to all people. However, there doesn't appear to be much to choose from in the rest of the pack. Most of those guys have a lot more baggage then Huckabee will ever have. For instance: pro-choice, pro-abortion, at least two or three are millionaires and don't forget, a former mayor of NYC and a former governor of Mass. don't know too much about the south and its citizens.
Oh by the way, if all else fails, there is always HILLARY. LOL.
Happy Birthday, OC!
Nifty, nifty, OC is ???
Amazed: given that choice, it's anyone but!
concerned said:
However, you bring up an excellent point that I have really been watching....those with seeker backgrounds tend to have blurred lines of right and wrong and tend to make emotional, feel good decisions instead of logical, practical ones.
Reply,
Right on, concerned! I say what you said!
Huckabee has high praise for Warren. Warren is into several things that are alarming: a global world view as opposed to nationalism, global religion, a "group think" mentality over individualism, and experience based religion over doctrine or theology.
I guess the question that concerns me is this: How far would Huckabee take us into the "new world order" ? How accomodating would Huckabee be to the globalization doctrines of the United Nations/ Universal Church/ Green Peace/ European Union, etc?
Hey, if Chuck is for Huck, he can't be all that bad!
Nass ... isn't it time for a new thread?
Lin said...
"How many true conservatives are Governors of Mass?"
I'm not sure if he was a governor or not, but JFK was much more conservative than today's conservatives.
As far as Romney/Huckabee goes, I have concerns about Romney's record as governor, however, lets not forget, we're electing a president, not a pastor. In my opinion, one's religious beliefs should not be a factor in electing a president. I could care less if the president is Christian, hindu, bhuddist, wiccan, or whatever. I just want someone who is strong on national security and will be tough when it comes to dealing with illegals. I fear that Huckabee will wind up being the Republican's version of Jimmy Carter if he's elected and further sell our country out to the Useless Nations.
Potential new thread -
It's been a year - what have we learned - where are we now.
This information was on the FBCJax blog in an anonymous comment:
This from a pastor resource web site about IRS rules found here.
"Basically, most expenditures to provide a home for the dual status minister and family can be bought with income tax free housing allowance dollars. THIS INCLUDES rent or principal payments, real estate taxes, mortgage interest, insurance, IMPROVEMENTS AND REPAIRS, FURNISHINGS, APPLIANCES, DECORATOR ITEMS (RUGS, DRAPES, ART, PAINTING, WALLPAPERING), LINENS, TOWELS, UTILITIES (including non-business phone use), exterior costs (lawn mower, garden hose, lawn tools, etc). The following are specifically excluded as housing allowance expenses: maids or hired lawn care, personal toiletries, paper products, clothing, jewelry, or items strictly for personal use."
Are they kidding? Why should a minister be able to not only pay his mortgage with tax-free dollars but also his utilities and pretty much everything that goes inside the house short of toothpaste and toilet paper? Can anyone explain this to me? No wonder the average Joe has such a big tax bill. No wonder they ordained DC. These kinds of "exclusions" are ridiculous!
NASS,
Re: ministers' housing allowances:
On top of all that, unless the laws have changed recently, the minister still gets to deduct his mortgage interest payments from his income taxes, same as anyone else.
I think for many ministers of small churches (which are still the vast majority of churches in the country) these tax advantages help compensate for relatively small salaries. Doesn't quite seem right that the same rules apply to very well paid ministers of large churche, though.
junk,
Nothing wrong with deducting those interest payments -- just like everyone else -- except it's not "like everyone else" because they're not paying tax on the money they use to pay those property taxes "like everyone else" does.
It's not paying income tax on the "housing allowance" that gets me. According to that article, all a church has to do is call a big percentage of a pastor's salary a "housing allowance," and the pastor can use it to buy, for example, expensive art, Persian rugs, $10,000 leather sofas, a big-screen plasma TV for every room in the house, a pool, a pool table, a whirlpool (and the water to fill it, the electricity to power it, the towels to dry off with after soaking in it, the washer and dryer to launder the towels, the water and electricity to run the washer and dryer, etc.) ad nauseum.
Don't believe it? The very next section states, "The Internal Revenue Code (IRC) does not establish a dollar limitation or percentage limitation for the housing allowance exclusion."
Someone once asked Mark Dougharty if he thought Steve Gaines loves money. Mark was said to have pondered the question for a while, then carefully answered, "Well... I wouldn't say he loves money... but he sure does like nice things!" I'm sure he does -- especially since he doesn't have to pay tax on the money he buys many of those nice things with. Must be... nice.
Oh, and you failed to explain it. ;-)
No doubt about it, preachers have a tax advantage and they exploit it to the hilt.
The biggest rip off is many of your non-profit organizations (including churches). Remember a few years ago when Davidson county (Nashville) woke up to the fact that all of the printing operations of the Sunday School Board were not on the property tax rolls. That got changed in a hurry.
We would all be shocked if we knew the financial numbers behind the Joel Osteen operation. Millions of dollars flowing thru and not very much oversite or accountability. Non-profits are noted for high administrative costs and big salaries. Remember when the head of United Way was caught living high and mighty on charitable donations?
To top it all off, IRS does not consider non-profits a high priority for audits.
Interesting post on the FBCJax:
ybic said...
watchdog,
What is your goal here? Do you feel you are furthering the kingdom with this blog? Are lives being changed because of your effort? Are you keeping the main thing the main thing?
December 14, 2007 12:51 AM
Talking about a new thread.....
Blogging...purpose? Lives being changed? Alarms being sounded? The Main thing?
My reply:
The main thing....
Tall order.
Let's see.....keeping our witness as pure as possible so unbelievers will see a difference in us. 86% of those who come to know Christ do so through a relationship with a believer or believers. If we look the same as the world, act like the world, manage our business like the world.....how will we look any different? Why would anyone want to be a part of something that is the same old thing?
Church leadership is a combination of leadership and servanthood. Every action by the leader should point to God.
The main thing.....guiding the way for others to see God.
I am amazed that people think that what happens at BBC, or FBCJax, GBC, or Euliss Baptist, or Saddleback doesn't in some way effect us all. I believe it does, ultimately.
Churches run as businesses acting as ministries blurs the lines to much it is difficult to tell where God is sometimes.
With so many who call themselves Christians willing to vote openly evil men and women into office, under the false notion that this is a duty of Christians to vote evil in by some arbitrary degree; the following spells out how this is Unholy and Unbiblical danger and folly of Christians choosing and voting for evil of any sort at any time.
Would Christians vote for Nero or for Caligula ?
Hmmm....ok....lets' se....Which emperor killed less Christians ????
This false measure and demonic mindset is straight out of hells kitchen.
Here's a piece that seeks to wake us out of this spell.
This "lesser of two EVILS "mindset is straight out of Lucifers kitchen.
No wonder the Church is so impotent ,,it has millions of alleged Christ followers openly voting for well publicicized and well known EVIL and thinking of it as a good national service and duty to do so.
Lord...please ..Come Back for Your Children....
In the meantime..
Never, ever, ever, vote for evil
Or you become partakers and partners with evil.
Pastor Chuck Baldwin ..on Voting for lesser of two evils...
WOULD CHRISTAINS VOTE FO NERO? OR CALIGULA?
Watchman: I appreciate the meaning and desire behind your post but have no idea what we are expected to do with the circumstances we are faced with. As an American, I am not going to forfeit my right to vote either.
Not being willing to vote for "the lesser of two evils" is what put such notable politicians in the White House as Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.
I remember a co-worker of mine at the time, during the 1992 presidential primary, cast his vote for Pat Buchanan. I asked him why, as Buchanan didn't have a snowball's chance. He said, "It's a 'protest' vote." No, it was a wasted vote!
If you ever find the perfect candidate, let me know. I promise you it'll never happen. Either vote for "the lesser of two evils" or stay home and let "the world" determine your nation's, state's, and community's leaders. But if you do stay home, don't gripe about it when evil triumphs. If you don't vote you've sacrificed your right to complain.
Of course, in the case of our local politicians, according to Steve Gaines, we don't have the right to complain regardless.
This is how I'll be voting in '08.
Nass: HERE, HERE! I agree.
With the cartoon too.
When faced with Bad, Good, and Best, with Best no chance of winning, I'll take Good over Bad, thank you.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Oh, and you failed to explain it. ;-)
Not sure what I failed to exlain, as I wasn't trying to explain anything. :) It was all just lagniappe.
James Sundquist stated recently:
What is frightening is that if Romney (who promotes and endorses Rick Warren...see:
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2813/Eric_Barger), Huckabee, or Hillary become President, all of whom have formed unholy alliances with Warren, we are doomed. Just pray that a hedge of thorns will surround them so none of them will help the United States become a Purpose Driven Nation like Rwanda.
May God have mercy on us!
Reply: Isn't Obama also friends with Warren?
Dr. Rick Warren recently made this statement discussing Governor Huckabee on a radio program:
“I know most of the candidates running for president but I’ve known Mike Huckabee the longest, since we did our graduate degrees together in the late 70s. Mike’s a man of vision, compassion, and integrity. I’ve watched his uncanny ability to identify with normal people in ways that many leaders don’t. That’s probably why TIME named him one of the five best governors in America. He’s definitely presidential material. But honestly, what I find most appealing is his self-deprecating humor. That’s a key sign of a spiritually and emotionally healthy leader - someone who is comfortable with himself, is authentic, doesn’t wear a mask, and is secure enough to be humble. People love that.”
SOURCE: http://www.mikehuckabee.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Blogs.View&Blog_id=658
Reply:
Self-deprecating humor is my first consideration when I go to the polls.
You guys please notify churchmouse when you find the "BEST." I am having some trouble.
Watchman, If it is not too personal, who are you voting for in the primary?
What is a "Purpose Driven Nation"?
I think I am for the Porpoise Driven Life. But maybe that idea is all wet.
Word verification: pybag.
Yum!
churchmouse wrote:
"Self-deprecating humor is my first consideration when I go to the polls."
Absolutely! Amen!
junk said:
I think I am for the Porpoise Driven Life. But maybe that idea is all wet.
Reply:
You so funny! yuk yuk yuk 8^)
A pastor (who did not say I had permission to use his name, so I won't) sent me this comment today:
"Since I’m not sure if you’ll actually post my comment if I’d made it, let me also remind you that while ministers are exempt from federal taxes for our housing allowance, we must actually pay the FULL Social Security tax amount on our entire salary package (housing included). In the secular workforce, the employer generally pays half the SS tax. In my case, I rely on the offset from my mortgage insurance deduction to help pay those taxes, and I would dare say there are many in the same boat."
If you're the person who's previously posted comments under your first name, you're correct, I wouldn't have. I would be shocked (though I'm quickly learning to expect it) that a pastor could have written some of the vicious things that person did. If that wasn't you, never mind. You are most welcome to post comments.
Now, to address your comment... I'm sorry, but I have absolutely zero sympathy for your situation.
1. The same is true of any self-employed person. I know all about this. I was self-employed most of my working life, and no one paid me a "housing allowance," tax-exempt or otherwise, or any other type of benefit. Not only did I pay 100% of my Social Security tax, I paid 100% of my health insurance premiums and everything else necessary to maintain some semblance of a comfortable life. Do you?
And as an aside, did you know that once you start drawing Social Security, you can be taxed on up to 85% of your benefits? This is double taxation since you've already paid tax on 50% of what you've paid in. The employed person hasn't paid in but 50% in the first place and that's all he pays taxes on; the self-employed person can deduct 50% of what he's paid in, but he still had to pay it in. He's simply not required to pay income tax on 50% of what he paid in. From just a tax standpoint he's on a level playing field with his employed peers, but he's still taking home 7.65% less than an employed person making the same income because he's paid the full 15.3% of his SS tax.
2. Ordained ministers have the privilege, if they desire, of opting out of paying Social Security completely which is something other people cannot do.
You know, for a group of people (i.e. ministers) who claim the government "hates" Christians, the government certainly has extended a lot of sweet tax breaks to y'all.
I suspected the "pastor" (he's a minister of music, not a pastor) who wrote the above comment to me in an e-mail was the same "cory" who has posted ugly comments (or tried to) before. Sure enough... they're one and the same.
I have since gotten further confirmation of "churchmouse's" story from additional sources, and I stick by it. It was in no way meant to make Jim Whitmire look bad, and I don't think it did. And FYI, "Pastor Cory," I posted Joshua Whitmire's e-mail a few minutes after I read it. Unlike some people who seem to have a lot more free time on their hands than I, I don't sit at my computer 24/7 checking my e-mail and dwelling on this blog. Perhaps you should spend more of your time tending to your own congregation and less time blogging about things you haven't a clue about.
Junk,
If your question was serious, the following quote from Christianity Today briefly answers your question, "What is a purpose-driven nation."
"It's still gaining strength through the PEACE plan, a bold ministry vision from... Saddleback Church's Rick Warren. I traveled to Kigali, Rwanda, with the Warrens and 42 other American evangelicals in July, where they joined 9,000 Rwandan Christians in launching the first "Purpose-Driven Nation" initiative to harness businesspeople, politicians, and pastors against the nation's biggest social problems."
--http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/october/17.32.html
I guess its a little like Bellevue Loves Memphis on an internation scale.
God is sovereign, and He rules all all of the affairs of men..and He rules all things....including nations and empires and He allows evil men to climb to high office in that His Will not ours is accomplished.
God determines our leaders.., AND KNOWS THIS VERY MOMENT WHOM OUR LEADER WILL BE ...not us,...and not "lesser of two evil" Christians, nor "protest vote" Pat Buchanan Christians, Mike Huckabee Christians, nor third party Christians...nor antichristians, nor elves in gingerbread shoes.
God is allowing whomever, male or female, republican or democrat to sit as president that fits His WILL for this Nation...we fool ourselves, when we beleive we can and do shape this nations or our own futures.
Lin...
to answer your question....
I will never vote for an openly evil man or woman, and call them " good" , or " less evil", than another openly evil individual.
If all are willfully evil, they will be enthroned without my intentioned vote for their evil.
To God be Glory.
You know, for a group of people (i.e. ministers) who claim the government "hates" Christians, the government certainly has extended a lot of sweet tax breaks to y'all.
1:18 PM, December 14, 2007
As someone who has been self employed quite a bit, I would love to have the same tax break perks ministers have.
I get a bit queasy when they start whining. 100% of their income comes from people like me who don't get the same breaks. And if anyone else is self employed, you know you are really working 24/7. YOu cannot leave it at the 'office'...just like pastors.
I do not expect pastors to get this. Most have not spent a lot of time in the competitive marketplace. Perhaps they should.
The article by Joseph Faarah, "Between The Lines", accesed thru Saving Bellevue is very informative.
Here are some things to think about: Hank Hannagraph, in a debate just a few days ago at the Pre-Tribulaation conference, revealed these beliefs and teachings of his.
The Book of Revelation, in his opinion was written before 65 AD. This fallacious conclusion he came to because he THINKS John would have mentioned the destruction of the Temple if it were as all legitimate scholors agree, 95 AD
Hank says and teaches there is NO Rapture!
He says the anti-christ was Nero!
He says the tribulation has already taken place!
He says the Messianic Kingdom is NOT a literal 1000 yeaars!
And, this is one that really blows my mind: he says we are NOW in the Messianic kingdom!!!
Why does it matter if Hank Hannagraph is way out in left field with his misinterpretation of scripture? According to the scholars at the conference, the key to bible understanding is that prophacy is a LITERAL INTERPRETAION OF GOD'S WORD. All Bible prophacies concerning the Messiah's first coming wrere completely and literally fulfilled. For this very reason we can have confidence that all the prophacies of His second coming will be fulfilled. Bible prophacy fulfilled proves not only that God exists and is in control and all knowing, but that His plan for this world is trustworthy. WE do have a future hope. Recognizing the imminant rapture of the church leads to holy living among God's people and stimulaates an active witness in sharing the gospel with the lost. Its imperaative the the church teach its young the importance and methods of dilligent study of the scriptures from a literal and contextual perspective.
Keep looking up! The Lord IS coming soon, no matter what confusion and misleading Hank Hannnagraph floods the airways with.......... We can and ought to as true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, take scripture at its literal meaning unless the text otherwise indicates. Jesus Christ will return. There will be a judgement of this earth and a day of troubles like never before! He will literally reign here on earth for 1000 years as He has spoken. And, no, what Hank is experiencing today is not the Messianic Kingdom! O man of little faith! I can only guess what you believe about satan if you think he is bound!!!! 911 is ok to have happen in the Messianic Kingdom, Hank?
Ducktape!
Pastor Cory? Yeah, right. Whatever.
Listen, "pastor" cory. Been there and had those sweet breaks. Best to shut up and quit whining. Wait til the IRS changes it's mind... and that time is coming. Then whine.
To everyone else:
Hope you know that most "pastors" aren't sissies.
Just sayin'.
oc.
watchman wrote:
"God determines our leaders.., AND KNOWS THIS VERY MOMENT WHOM OUR LEADER WILL BE ...not us... "
Kind of like a political T.U.L.I.P.?
Lin wrote:
"I get a bit queasy when they start whining."
Thank you, Lin. I was trying to avoid the "W" word, but it wasn't easy.
Oh, and "oc," too. :-)
watchman wrote:
"I will never vote for an openly evil man or woman, and call them ' good' , or ' less evil', than another openly evil individual."
I suppose it depends on how broad your definition of "openly evil" is.
On the first day of Christmas
The pastor gave to me
“The Purpose Driven Life” on CD
On the second day of Christmas
The pastor gave to me
Two Amens
And “The Purpose Driven Life” on CD
On the third day of Christmas
The pastor gave to me
Three billboards
Two Amens
And “The Purpose Driven Life” on CD
On the fourth day of Christmas
The pastor gave to me
Four fence jumpers
Three billboards
Two Amens
And “The Purpose Driven Life” on CD
On the fifth day of Christmas
The pastor gave to me
Five com-mer-cials
Four fence jumpers
Three billboards
Two Amens
And “The Purpose Driven Life” on CD
On the sixth day of Christmas
The pastor gave to me
Six months of silence
Five com-mer-cials
Four fence jumpers
Three billboards
Two Amens
And “The Purpose Driven Life” on CD
On the seventh day of Christmas
The pastor gave to me
“Seven-eleven” praise songs
Six months of silence
Five com-mer-cials
Four fence jumpers
Three billboards
Two Amens
And “The Purpose Driven Life” on CD
On the eighth day of Christmas
The pastor gave to me
Eight goons a-guarding
“Seven-eleven” praise songs
Six months of silence
Five com-mer-cials
Four fence jumpers
Three billboards
Two Amens
And “The Purpose Driven Life” on CD
On the ninth day of Christmas
The pastor gave to me
Nine deacons leaving
Eight goons a-guarding
“Seven-eleven” praise songs
Six months of silence
Five com-mer-cials
Four fence jumpers
Three billboards
Two Amens
And “The Purpose Driven Life” on CD
On the tenth day of Christmas
The pastor gave to me
Ten wolves in sheepskins
Nine deacons leaving
Eight goons a-guarding
“Seven-eleven” praise songs
Six months of silence
Five com-mer-cials
Four fence jumpers
Three billboards
Two Amens
And “The Purpose Driven Life” on CD
On the eleventh day of Christmas
The pastor gave to me
Eleven pre-text sermons
Ten wolves in sheepskins
Nine deacons leaving
Eight goons a-guarding
“Seven-eleven” praise songs
Six months of silence
Five com-mer-cials
Four fence jumpers
Three billboards
Two Amens
And “The Purpose Driven Life” on CD
On the twelfth day of Christmas
The pastor gave to me
Twelve laws a-broken
Eleven pre-text sermons
Ten wolves in sheepskins
Nine deacons leaving
Eight goons a-guarding
“Seven-eleven” praise songs
Six months of silence
Five com-mer-cials
Four fence jumpers
Three billboards
Two Amens
And “The Purpose Driven Life” on CD
I don't know why this makes a bit of difference to anyone, but Joshua Whitmire posted his letter himself in a comment on the other blog. But he sent it to me in an e-mail which I found as soon as I got home that day -- approximately 1-2 hours after it was sent. So I had to copy it into a comment and then post it, hence the delay. Why he chose not to just publish it in a comment on this blog, I have no idea, but I hope this clears up the confusion for those who have made such a mountain out of a molehill.
A Round of Applause for JUNK!!!!
That ranks right up there with "Twelves Days in Middle Earth"!
Blogger watchman said...
God is sovereign, and He rules all all of the affairs of men..and He rules all things....including nations and empires and He allows evil men to climb to high office in that His Will not ours is accomplished.
God determines our leaders.., AND KNOWS THIS VERY MOMENT WHOM OUR LEADER WILL BE ...not us,...and not "lesser of two evil" Christians, nor "protest vote" Pat Buchanan Christians, Mike Huckabee Christians, nor third party Christians...nor antichristians, nor elves in gingerbread shoes.
God is allowing whomever, male or female, republican or democrat to sit as president that fits His WILL for this Nation...we fool ourselves, when we beleive we can and do shape this nations or our own futures.
Lin...
to answer your question....
I will never vote for an openly evil man or woman, and call them " good" , or " less evil", than another openly evil individual.
If all are willfully evil, they will be enthroned without my intentioned vote for their evil.
To God be Glory.
2:39 PM, December 14, 2007
Ya know watchman, not voting at all would be the same as voting for Hillary Clinton.
And I can tell you this much, you won't find a perfect candidate ever.
To Junk: The most relevant 12 days of Christmas I have ever seen. Hope you do not mind if I copy and spread - excellent work my friend.
As to many of the other posts relating to tax breaks, etc. I now wonder if I took the wrong career path - all the money I have paid out over the years could have bought me a grand house and car. Oh well, my cross to bear.
Watchman. I am having a hard time getting my head around your comment.
Any 'humans' who run for President are the lessor of two evils. The only choice in any election is not to vote at all.
I don't know if anyone else sees the parallels but Israel begged for a king. A ruler like the other nations around them. God warned them what that would mean. Is there anything to learn from that?
I am not nearly the patriot I used to be and do not see the US as a Christian nation at all.
As a matter of fact, this election has me more stumped than any in my life.
Romney is basically more left than a Nelson Rockefeller republican. He is the kind of guy who will take a poll to see where to go on vacation or how to wear his hair. He is very popular with establishment republicans which scares me. He used to be pro choice until a few years ago when he started thinking about a run for Prez. He is just too perfect on the outside...know what I mean? Besides, he is in a cult.
I agree that Huckabee could be a disaster. We just don't know. ONe can learn a lot from mistakes as a Governor...more so than a senator could.
Ironically, the one with the most skill for President is Rudi. (Skill being a blend of focus and leadership) But my goodness...his personal life is a mess and his social beliefs make Boy Clinton look like a conservative.
McCain- is bi-polar. he is a dem one day and a repub the next. He has no idea who he is.
Fred- What a disappointment.
It is one of the above or Hillary or Obama.
Perhaps our votes should be to keep either of those two out. But even if one of them wins...God is in control. But we get the leaders we deserve. He has, for some reason, given us the ability to choose them.
Junk,
LOL and Bravo!!!!!
What a mind!!!!!
On all the tax talk....I barely understand most of it....when it comes to taxes and insurance I am REALLY ADD...BUT
I DO know the "entitlement" attitude when I hear it...
and the pastor's voice was loud and clear.
I can't relate or have any sympathy either....have been an independent contractor while supporting and educating my children alone...paying for private health insurance and most of the time not able to afford (I won't charge) Christmas gifts for my kids.
Don't sweat it Corey...play your cards right and you can live in a $500,000 house...no seminary or higher education required!!
Junk....hope it's cool...sending out the song in a mass email!!!!! :)
Gang: when our government saw fit to take God out of schools and legalize abortion and Christains did nothing, it has been down hill since. We are reaping the results.
And you wonder how things are screwed up? Go figure.
David Brown
You know what? The law may haved shoved God out of the schools, but it didn't shove God out of my kids.
That was all my responsibility.
He rules. He reigns. No matter what anyone may say.
Just sayin'.
oc.
David: You are exactly right. I've always felt like removing prayer from public schools was the single biggest event that turned our nation.
Now the "diversity" poison has finished the job of secularizing the US.
Diversity and acceptance of everyone and everything EXCEPT the founders beliefs.
lin said,
God is in control. But we get the leaders we deserve.
Reply:
Well said, lin.
I have followed this blog for some time now, but have never posted here. I have been a Bellevue member for 17 years now. I have seen this church go from an example to a sham. There are so many problems that it would take weeks or months or possibly years to correct them. My question to you is financial. We are not seeing any information regarding the finances and I would like to know if anyone can shed any light on this for me. What are the offerings now averaging every Sunday? With the very very very obvious decrease in attendance, how are we sustaining even paying the bills, much less salaries, missions, etc.? The cash reserves of Bellevue seem to have dropped drastically, yet we haven't been told anything about them? Can anyone tell me what's going on?
Mark Elser,
I refer you to this comment from the previous thread:
fogmachine said...
Perhaps the money in the Love Offering figure is coming from another fund inside the church.
In years past, the figures were actually closer to $2,000,000 in cash on the day of the offering and another $1,000,000 in pledges for a total of $3,000,000. I believe the largest love offering on record was the year before Dr. Rogers retired.
It's very interesting that the interest income Bellevue has earned each month for the past several years has averaged over $150,000 per month.
For the first 6 months of this year, each month averaged over $150,000 with June of 2007 producing $161,055 in interest income.
In July, the interest income dropped to $34K, August $30K, and Sept $25K. Why would the interest income drop 80% unless there was less money earning interest?
This is a huge drop. Why the big drop in interest income for Bellevue? The current budget is 23,500,000 and according to David Coombs, the giving is only down about $1,900,000 from a year ago. (14 million in 2006 vs. 12.1 million in 2007 for the same time period)
Does anyone know the answer to these financial questions? It doesn't appear that the church has any scheduled business meetings on the calendar like the bylaws call for.
10:14 AM, November 13, 2007
These are the numbers given to the deacons. Unfortunately, they do not publish these numbers for the rest of the congregation to see. Why the secrecy? I've never been in a church (until now) that didn't publish their attendance and offering figures.
Several weeks ago, I took three consecutive Sundays and attended both worship services. By my estimation there could not have been anymore than 5,000 to 5,500 in both services combined. Are there any current attendance numbers published? With there being 5,000 to 5,500 in both worship services combined, that would be 55% to 60% drop in attendance over a 2 year period.
I fully agree and support what David Brown posted.
“Gang: when our government saw fit to take God out of schools and legalize abortion and Christians did nothing, it has been down hill since. We are reaping the results.
And you wonder how things are screwed up? Go figure.”
But while the government was doing this – Christians were sitting on their hands. Christians were doing absolutely zip, nothing! Christians did not confront the issue or confront our government head-on by taking action in defense. Instead they were whinnying and complaining to each other. It was “swallow and follow”, just like with BBC and Steve Gaines.
For the life of me, I can not understand how one man can come and pull the wool over the eyes of thousands of BBC members and destroy their church. Why are members and former members again sitting on their hands? Don’t you care about Christ’s Church? Was not it the Church where God led you to? Your tithes and offerings built it! Dr. Rogers led the way. I believe that Dr. Rogers would have fought tooth and nail even on his death bed to disallow this one man from destroying Christ’s Church. He would have thrown this jerk out on his behind - - - one way or another. Dr. Rogers would not have sat on his hands.
Where does the Bible teach that Christians are to be like a throw rug to be trampled upon?
The United States Government took God out of schools some years ago. Today, Christians are allowing bullies, greedy lying preachers like Gaines to TAKE GOD OUT OF OUR CHURCHES. AND DEAR CRISTIAN YOU ARE AGAIN ALLOWING IT. Yes I am yelling, at the top of my voice. Please God forgive us for we do know what we are witnessing – we are just too lazy and too stupid to DO anything about it.
Mark Elser,
These are the latest attendance figures given the deacons that I've seen. First number of each pair is for the corresponding month of 2007. Second number is for same month of 2006. (I added the percentage calculations.) The 2006 numbers were likely down from the same months in 2005. If anyone has earlier and/or later numbers, please send me those and I'll publish them.
February 2007/2006
9:30 4834/6415 -24.6%
11:00 3106/3744 -17.0%
Total 7940/10159 -21.8%
March 2007/2006
9:30 4125/4552 -9.4%
11:00 2116/3031 -30.2%
Total 6241/7583 -17.7%
April 2007/2006
9:30 4404/5327 -17.3%
11:00 3058/3781 -19.1%
Total 7462/9108 -18.1%
May 2007/2006
9:30 3630/4396 -17.4%
11:00 2557/3221 -20.6%
Total 6187/7617 -18.8%
June 2007/2006
9:30 3559/4516 -21.2%
11:00 2559/3343 -23.5%
Total 6118/7859 -22.2%
July 2007/2006
9:30 3330/4616 -27.9%
11:00 2613/3200 -18.3%
Total 5943/7816 -24.0%
August 2007/2006
9:30 4328/5629 -23.1%
11:00 2927/3608 -18.9%
Total 7255/9237 -21.5%
hecanhear,
The problem as I see it is the lack of courage to make a stand by the majority of men in the congregation, especially the deacons. They seemed to be intimidated by the bully, Gaines and his team of devious men. Unfortunately, these men have been in power for years, professing even to be Dr Rogers' friends, some even laying their traitorous hands on him in prayer at his retirement, all the while knowing what wicked plans were already in motion. They have rhetorically raped and pillaged, plundered and murdered the character of the membership by attacking them spiritually, accusing them as troublemakers, interfering with God's will, evildoers, disloyal, and those in leadership have even attempted to personally assassinate the reputations of godly men and women who dared to call them to accountability for their unscriptural actions. They have torn apart families, friends and God's church in order to get their hands on the millions of dollars of God's sacred tithes and offerings in the coffers of Bellevue. Especially those in charge of missions who were lying in wait to get their hands on enough money to do that which Dr Rogers found lacking in integrity. In his wisdom, he forbade these acts during his tenure as pastor, he saw the dark shadows that these actions would cast on the church and sought to protect her name and integrity. Yes, Gaines AND his wife are bullies, but the men in the darkness are the ones that orchestrated these treacherous deeds, the ones that carried out the sham of seeking a new pastor. They were warned about Gaines, yet shunned the advice and they chose Gaines for a reason, they knew he would allow them to line their own pockets, not with the monetary wealth of Bellevue, because these men and women were already millionaires, but with power and self-glory. Gaines is the one that sought the money AND power. He and Donna took the position to fulfill their personal agendas, they even thought they would get LWF in the deal and were furious when they found out that it was an independent entity and they could not get their hands on it, even though their supporters tried to manipulate their way into it. The Gaines' leadership has even tried to pack off his sins on Dr Rogers and the Rogers family in order to deflect accountability away from themselves. The questions I still have are related to the Rogers family. Who gave them advice during all this time? All Mrs. Rogers had to do was to take the podium! She had nationwide support, and still does, but from all I can see, she felt that it was the "men's" job to handle the sin in the camp. Well, that obviously was a job they were ill-prepared or unwilling to take. It is never too late to turn the church around, but at this point in time, with the deterioration that has taken place, it will take the ouster of not only Gaines, but the removal of the entire leadership and most of the ministerial staff and still yet, the damage is so deep that recovery and restoration would take years. Yet the actual “church” is the membership, those who could see the wickedness, and recognize that the Lord was not in the works of Gaines, mostly those who have left for other church homes are the discerners, the doers of righteousness, those who could not tolerate unchecked sin in the pulpit. Today there is worldwide recognition that the once great Bellevue Baptist Church, where one could hear the solid Word preached without compromise has fallen into darkness, a cold, whitewashed sepulcher full of feel good theology that has resorted to advertising for “customers” to fill the empty seats vacated by the turning away of almost 6000 of God’s children.
God in His Word has repeatedly shown us the importance of tradition. Today, the tradition of godly leadership at Bellevue has ended.
Only God can restore His church in this darkness and it is rapidly growing gloriously dark…..even so, Lord, come quickly!!!
Concernedsbcr said:
David: You are exactly right. I've always felt like removing prayer from public schools was the single biggest event that turned our nation.
Now the "diversity" poison has finished the job of secularizing the US.
Diversity and acceptance of everyone and everything EXCEPT the founders beliefs.
oc says:
Yep. I agree whole heartedly. This nation has let God down, in the name of "tolerance", and we have let ourselves down also in the process. Trying to be "nice", (ie. politically correct) the once proud U.S. is a now the universal dumpster, accepting and even encouraging ungodly ideas and practices from where ever. Now what do we do about it?
Was it ever a matter of nationality? As much as I love this country, (I've had family members die for her, and I would also if called) I don't really think so. And as the day of Judgment draws nearer, it will be the heart that is revealed, not the pledge of allegiance.
So then what makes any difference?
This is what makes the difference.
While the nation self destructs in front of the world, Who were you faithful to? What did you teach your children? Your friends? Your neighbors? Did you even try?
See, I think it's all about heart.
I think that makes a difference. I think it makes all the difference. To Him.
Micah 6:6-8.
Just sayin'.
oc.
For those of you who may not have read the letters to the editor in today's Comical Appeal, I have copied it below. When I read it, I was chilled to the bone and convicted of my failure to spread the Word. Taking God out of government, out of schools and out of churches produces this scary result.
************
The writer of the Dec. 13 letter, "Church has a role in public life," uses the phrase "sinful human beings." I don't know about his secret life, but I have committed no sin to my knowledge. What is a sin anyway? Presumably, if it were illegal, I'd be prosecuted by law and rightly so.
Imagined weakness is what makes people turn to false, man-made religions. Feeling sorry for yourself serves no useful purpose.
If you feel sinful, perhaps you should buy a chain and beat yourself. No doubt that will make you feel better.
He makes another assertion that we are "imperfect." I'd like to know in what sense I am imperfect. What is perfect? Do I need to grow more hair? Are my toes ugly? I am as perfect as evolution has made me. No doubt future generations will become even more perfect. Please reveal the source of your imperfection.
One more of his assertions is that it is impossible to separate religion and politics. This country is secular and there is any amount of evidence to prove that.
If anyone wants to see what happens to a country that has religion as part of its manifesto read European history.
Let's not go back to the Dark Ages. Keep religion out of politics, and allow it to be practiced by those who have yet to evolve to the age of reason.
Sheila Conner
Medon, Tenn.
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