This is the story of one abusive pastor, Phil Arms, but there are some similarities to what Bellevue is experiencing. This is Phil Arms' bio, copied from his website, Phil Arms Ministries."Phil Arms grew up in West Texas. His dynamic Christian mother raised her six children in the local church. However, Phil did not commit his life to Christ during his younger years and chose to join himself with the sub-culture of the sixties and seventies in Houston, Texas. After experiencing one dead end after another, running from the love and voice of God, he began to search for reality and gave his life to Christ on a street corner in 1972. Immediately after his conversion, he began a ministry on the streets of Houston, Texas, witnessing to those in need of Jesus. Within a short time God began to open wide the doors for Phil to minister in churches, schools and evangelistic rallies.
"He was licensed to preach in a local Southern Baptist Church and commissioned as an evangelist, birthing Phil Arms Minstries. This inter-denominational ministry went on to create weekend rallies geared to youth for many years, adding television and radio ministries, and also numerous church revivals and area-wide campaigns where Phil always focused on preaching a Bible-centered, Christ-exalting message.
"After spending fifteen years in the ministry of full-time evangelism, Phil and his wife, Suzanne, felt God strongly urging them to start a local church in the Houston area in 1986 and for fourteen years witnessed a continual, powerful move of the Spirit of God as it touched thousands of lives and homes.
"Since the year 2000, Dr. Arms, has devoted much of his time to writing and speaking at Bible Conferences and in churches as well as guesting for radio programs.
"Phil has co-authored several best-selling books with men such as Tim LaHaye and others. These books include Earth's Final Days, The Triumphant Return of Christ, and Piercing the Darkness.
"He has also written Promise Keepers--Another Trojan Horse , Wet Flies Can't Fly, The Winner in You and Pokemon and Harry Potter--Fatal Attractions."
But that's not Phil Arms' whole story...
From The Houston Press we learn that there's a whole lot more to his story than the above.
Read In Arms' Way.
Here's one couple's experience with Phil Arms:
Spiritual Abuse - Is there such a thing?
And another's:
Houston Church - The Problem
Related articles: What is "Spiritual Abuse"?
Biblical Leadership Styles
Tell it to the Church
649 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 649 Newer› Newest»LYNN: AND BY THE WAY---Did Pastor Gaines really say in his sermon the USUAL? ABOUT being persecuted? SHAKING HANDS in Heaven with other great ones like himself? WHY IS THIS STILL GOING ON OVER THERE?
Way to go Bellevue!
By publishing the name of Pastor Edgar Sathuluri, according to your article he had to run for his life because of his Christian witness.
Since the World Wide Web is available in India, you have endangered Pastor Edgar Sathuluri's life.
For all on this blog, please pray for Pastor Edgar's personal safety as Bellevue has endangered his life while promoting Donna and Steve Gaines.
As a Believer, I can't believe Bellevue would be this insensitive to the work going on in India and the precious lives of the Indian people.
Maybe this year's "Fall Festival" carnival was a warm-up for something like this.
Hmmm... is Libertyland still available?
(Note: The above-referenced article is satire. Rick Warren didn't really buy Disneyland -- not yet anyway.)
Fogmachine...
This is truly pathetic! We need to be in prayer for these people...
Ima
gmommy said...
Glad you won't be addressing EZ anymore!! Please don't.
OK.....Done deal.
About the CA article:
Too much credit has been given to Bellevue on this article. The CA is doing a series of articles on the impact of Memphis internationally. It was the CA asked who Bellevue and the mission in India if they could accompany them on this trip.
This article was written by an unbeliever with an agenda against Bellevue, the Christian religion, believers, and our precious Lord.
Many facts in the article are distorted or false. It appears that personal bias perhaps lead to incomplete and erroneous investigative research.
The mission in India was knowingly placed in peril by naming names and locations. The CA was asked not to name names because it would literally put lives in jeopardy.
Bellevue and the Bellevue administration have acted without integrity in so much - but this is not their doing. The ladies that went on this trip (at least the ones I know personally) love the Lord whole-heartedly, are women of integrity, and went with humility to share and learn from the Indian ladies. The Indian ladies they ministered to were Christian leaders who have discipled other women in their villages. The arrogance portrayed in this article is a misperception on the part of the writer, not from the heart of the mission team or Bellevue.
Bellevue has damaged its reputation, and may never completely recover. Many of us have moved on to other fellowships. Yet, millions here and abroad are headed straight to hell. It is time to stop finding fault in the small things (hairdos, etc), rehearsing the things that can't be undone, and get busy with the Great Commission Jesus gave us.
We can't make anyone else live with integrity, be transparent, or be Christ centered. We can't change what has happened. We have taken a stand for integrity, truth, transparency in church government. We have done our part. We have been over ruled. It is time for healing, to move on from the grief and despair we have felt, and to look to Jesus for release from anger and bitterness. Just Moses put the branch into the bitter waters at Meribah and the water was made sweet, Jesus is the Branch that can transform the hurt and bitterness from the past few years into something sweet and will use it in some way to bring honor and glory to God.
missions51 wrote:
"This article was written by an unbeliever with an agenda against Bellevue, the Christian religion, believers, and our precious Lord."
Awfully big assumption you're making there, don't you think?
Steve and Donna Gaines have stooped to a new low. In order to promote themselves, they " outed" those precious Indian people. Those poor women are now in danger becuase of those two.
But when you consider that SG did not have a problem with a sexual pervert and deviant "counseling" women who had been sexually abused, it's clear that he has no respect for women, nor does he really care what happens to them.
I am absolutely stunned and appauled that those two could go this low.
I wonder how welcoming India will be for the next folks that try to go over there and ' evangelize' them.
So what if a pastor has to run for his life and women are beaten by their husbands...the important thing is that SG and DG were able to brag about what wonderful people they are.
sickofthelies said:
"Steve and Donna Gaines have stooped to a new low. In order to promote themselves, they " outed" those precious Indian people. Those poor women are now in danger becuase of those two."
Most of the ladies who went on the trip, Donna Gaines included, are distraught about the article and very concerned about the well being of the pastor and staff in India.
The information in the article was from CA reporter's perspective. He made his own notes and did his own "investigating" while there. His bias is evident, his journalistic technique is sloppy at best, and his article is filled with unsubstantiated information.
Bellevue did not supply all the info, and who knows about the context of the quotes.
missions,
Not disputing anything you've stated, but how do you know all this? Did you go on the trip, or are you related to or closely associated with someone who did?
I would question why, if security was such an issue, that they allowed any "outsider" to accompany them. It doesn't make any sense to me.
eprov said...
I heard a great Bible teacher say that we cannot eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge without be affected. So the more we know of scripture, the greater responsibility to base our fellowship with others on the basis of love. Maybe a good time to read I Cor. 13.
This is a good summation of what I have said from the first time I posted on this site many months ago. Many things I have read on this site seem to lean to the fact that aspiring to eliminate sin from our life is a necessary part of salvation. This leads me to believe that it becomes a task necessary to retain your salvation. My view is different. I have written from the beginning that the aspiration to eliminate sin from my life is a undeniable byproduct of the Holy Spirit residing within me. In order to be saved, I must FIRST allow the Holy Spirit into my heart. Salvation is not possible without the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that, with the Holy Spirit, we will aspire to follow Jesus' commandments and aspire to turn away from sin. If someone professes to accept Christ as their savior, they willingly follow Jesus and His teachings which invlove the turning away from sin. I cannot accept the fact that a person that professes to be saved by the blood, would not effect a change in their lives consistent with the teachings of Christ. With the Holy Spirit in our heart, continuing to live a carnal life is just not possible.
OK, so you might say that the outcome of both viewpoints is the same so what harm is done if you believe either way. While the outcome may be the same, there is danger in straying away from the scripture and adding works as a condition of salvation. A frequent poster on this site actually posted a message on the Pyromaniacs blog under the "The fruits of repentance" topic, that, as I see it, leads to the danger of viewing works as a part of salvation.
Now i just can't see where you can call these independant(sic) events when the WORD links them so closely together. If we teach that they are linked and dependant(sic), what is the downside? People repent and get saved. If we teach they are independant(sic) so that folks won't try to work themselves into heaven...what is the downside? We risk raising a generation of people that see no need to repent....sort of like where we are.....
9:31 PM, November 08, 2007
The bolded portion of the above post leads one the believe that, even if I am wrong, what damage is done if I teach that works are interconnected to salvation? If my pupil does believe it, will he not be redeemed anyway? Well, the damage is considerable. First, it cheapens the impact of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We are not trusting Him to guide us in our Christ-based existence. Second, it is not a far reach for someone to misconstrue that if they are trying to turn away from sin and are following the commandments of Christ, then they have become a child of Christ. This could be a fatal assumption.
The above post seems to intimate that it is OK to deceive people in their path to faith as long as the intentions are good. Why not just teach as Christ told us to do and trust the Holy Spirit once we invite Him in to our heart? Like I have always said, with the Holy Spirit in our heart, there is no doubt that we will turn from our sinful ways. Jesus said. John said it. Paul said it. To mislead someone down the path of a works based salvation, may cause them to bypass the necessary first step, that of inviting the Holy Spirit into our hearts and accepting God's free grace of salvation through Jesus Christ. You have heard the old saying "faith without works is dead." Well, works without faith leads to damnation.
Bottom line. Invite the Holy Spirit into your heart, trust in Jesus to save you from your sins, and the rest will, without any doubt, follow. No deception needed. God promises it.
Posted on the Pyromaniacs blog:
Now i just can't see where you can call these independant(sic) events when the WORD links them so closely together. If we teach that they are linked and dependant(sic), what is the downside? People repent and get saved. If we teach they are independant(sic) so that folks won't try to work themselves into heaven...what is the downside?
9:31 PM, November 08, 2007
After reading my previous post I realized that I omitted a most important fact pertaining to the above statement.
If one invites the Holy Spirit into their heart and accepts Jesus Christ as his savior, he will live as Christ commanded. The works will be a part of the individual filled with the Holy Spirit.
If ones lives as Christ teaches, follows his commandments and aspires to turn from his own individual sin, and continues a lifetime of these works without the Holy Spirit residing within him, he is hoplessly lost from Christ.
We risk raising a generation of people that see no need to repent....sort of like where we are.....
If we are raising a generation that feels this way, then the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not being taught to them in the first place, and those that are teaching so are teaching falsely.
Teach the gospel as God gave it to us. Don't deceive by making assumptions like "what is the downside?" Trust in the Holy Spirit to do His job.
lin said...
There is no such thing as sinless perfection in a mere human. What Ez is referring to is the teaching that you can be saved and continue in sin because well, we are not perfect so why bother?
Anyone that would teach such is a false teacher.
We are not saved FROM our sin. We are saved UNTO Christ. This means our relationship with sin is totally changed forever and we are broken by it.
I like the way you put that. I think of it as we are broken FROM our previous relationship with sin through our conviction by the Holy Spirit.
My..My..What ever happened to brevity?
nbbcof said...
"I would question why, if security was such an issue, that they allowed any "outsider" to accompany them. It doesn't make any sense to me."
Another mistake of the mind I guess? Perhaps another lack of discernment? Perhaps the thrill of free publicity overcame their good judgement?
My question is, how is the CA going to repond to these accusations? Are the accusations by BBC's insider saying they (the CA) are totally liable and/or responsible for this or was it totally the CA's "fault"? Was the CA told NOT to print names or pictures? Can they take it off their web site? Or is it too late?
One would think that both parties involved would have enough sense to realize the detriment of publishing names and faces of all parties involved? But I guess good press is worth it to some people, huh? I would like to hear what the CA has to say before we hurl stones at them. We know where BBC stands.
missions51 said:
The information in the article was from CA reporter's perspective.
reply:
Why was there a CA reporter on this mission trip?
missions51 said:
Most of the ladies who went on the trip, Donna Gaines included, are distraught about the article and very concerned about the well being of the pastor and staff in India.
Reply:
Why was there a CA reporter on this mission trip?
Anybody can quote from another blog....
Ezekiel said,
"In the end, salvation is a work begun by the Holy Spirit and finished by the Holy Spirit. To say that He does this without producing any work or fruit during the process is an error."
Rob replied,
AMEN! Yes, we are saved by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-9). But faith without works is dead. When God renews our hearts, and takes out our heart of stone, and gives us a new heart, we are transformed. As a result, YES, we will produce fruit. Works, if you will. But it is not the works that save us. Or as my pastor says it: We're not saved by works, but saved TO GO TO WORK for the Lord. And repentance was taught by Christ. Repentance, turning away from sin, is part of salvation. The problem appears that people confuse sanctification with regeneration.
For anyone interested, the quotes are from the pyromaniacs blog. The title of the post is "fruits of repentance". You can get it by going to the Nov archive. A lot of good comments there on this same subject. The moderators there are regenerated, reformed christians. The "owner" of the blog (Phil Johnson) works for pastor John Macarthur as an editor of his books. They don't hesitate to point out error and correct it.
A certain poster continues to do what they have done for days. Excise snippets, misconstrue, misquote and attempt to put words in my mouth. But I am glad to see that they are coming around.....We see from the above post that they finally...after days...admit that if salvation actually has taken place....that if the Holy Spirit actually resides in an individual there will be holy fruit flowing from that individual. If you missed it...here it is again.
”If one invites the Holy Spirit into their heart and accepts Jesus Christ as his savior, he will live as Christ commanded. The works will be a part of the individual filled with the Holy Spirit.
They then go on to say....
”If ones lives as Christ teaches, follows his commandments and aspires to turn from his own individual sin, and continues a lifetime of these works without the Holy Spirit residing within him, he is hoplessly lost from Christ.
And
We risk raising a generation of people that see no need to repent....sort of like where we are..... If we are raising a generation that feels this way, then the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not being taught to them in the first place, and those that are teaching so are teaching falsely.
It appears that the WORD has gone out and accomplished His will.....
1 Corinthians 10 says it pretty well as if we need to say it again...
1 I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. 8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, 10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. 12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
Stop sinning.....
sotl stated...
"In order to promote themselves, they 'outed' those precious Indian people. Those poor women are now in danger becuase of those two."
Awfully big assumption you're making there, don't you think?
"Steve and Donna Gaines have stooped to a new low. In order to promote themselves, they " outed" those precious Indian people. Those poor women are now in danger becuase of those two."
This India thing is no joke. It is not something to take lightly. I have family who as missionaries were put under house arrest in a certain large city in India a few years back. They were not doing anything against the law or culture in India, it was just one of the waves of anti Christian views that comes and goes in India in varying degrees.
They were put on house arrest for 3 weeks. Literally had soldiers guarding them. But the gravest danger were for those they had been worshiping with. Therefore, publishing pictures of native Christians is a huge NO NO and BBC should have known better. India is not a Christian friendly country at all times.
Also, one of the Indian pastors our church was supporting at the time in Southern India, was ambused and murdered leaving a house church. He was murdered by Hindus.
This is nothing to play around with.
"The mission in India was knowingly placed in peril by naming names and locations. The CA was asked not to name names because it would literally put lives in jeopardy.
Bellevue and the Bellevue administration have acted without integrity in so much - but this is not their doing."
They were asked not to name names?????
This makes NO sense. How did the CA become involved in the first place? How were they able to take pictures of this BBC mission trip without their permission? Why were the CA brought along?
Sorry friend, but your explanation does not add up.
Most of the churches I know that go on these trips take their own video/photography teams. They would NEVER allow the secular press near their ministry. The churches know the sensitive nature of photographing native Christians in hostile countries.
How could Donna Gaines, being her position as a pastors wife for so long allow this to happen? Did she not know better? Did she think she could control the secular media?
If she is sick about it then she should take a long look at herself. Perhaps the publicity potential was just too great of a temptation?
Let us hope no one is targeted for persecution because Donna Gaines wants publicity.
churchmouse wrote:
"Why was there a CA reporter on this mission trip?"
Ditto.
The CA reporter was on the trip, invited by the Gaines to promote Donna. It's another bullet point for the ole resume of things done.
Bellevue is very much involved in producing and marketing Donna’s studies. There needs to be more distance between Bellevue and the money producing ventures of Donna and Steve.
They could start with their own building and production equipment with their own studio instead of co-mingling the assets of Bellevue Baptist Church.
Nobody is allowed to gain financially off of the assets of a church under this type of arrangement.
It's all about the money. Follow the money trail with everything Steve and Donna touch.
It's always about promoting themselves to let everyone know how much they are doing.
Sounds a lot like a couple that used to occupy the Whitehouse to me.
fogmachine,
Does that mean that BBC paid for the CA staff to go on the trip with Donna?
Fogmachine says, "Sounds a lot like a couple that used to occupy the Whitehouse to me."
Comment: It does indeed sound a lot like the Clintons, Fogmachine. In addition, doesn't it ring a couple of bells? Like maybe Paula and Randy White? And maybe Joyce and Dave Meyer?
I definitely see a star in the making...can't you just see Lifeway shelves lined with books with Donna Gaines on the covers? And all the other stores too...Walmart for instance. Next thing you know Steve and Donna Gaines will be on TBN with the likes of Creflo and Taffy Dollar, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, and on and on. You get the picture. Multi-room mansions, private corporate jets, Rolls-Royce autos, etc. etc. The jet-set.
All in the name of God, of course.
Anybody hear about a certain senior pastor's wife going along on a recent trip to Chicago as a "chaperone" with a group of ECS kids? Seems she took a group of the girls shopping -- at Victoria's Secret.
NASS asked:
Anybody hear about a certain senior pastor's wife going along on a recent trip to Chicago as a "chaperone" with a group of ECS kids?
churchmouse: Does she have a boufant hairdo?
New BBC Open Forum said...
"Anybody hear about a certain senior pastor's wife going along on a recent trip to Chicago as a "chaperone" with a group of ECS kids? Seems she took a group of the girls shopping -- at Victoria's Secret.
12:59 PM, November 27, 2007"
Now THAT would tic me off - as a mother, it would be MY responsibility to decide if my underage daughter went shopping there...
She has overstepped her bounds.
mom4,
That would be a question for David Coombs to answer.
My question is how much did BBC pay the CA to run the article to begin with?
Fogmachine,
I can't ask David Coombs. He is in India...on another trip. I doubt he will tell us anyway, plus, the books are closed to the membership, so we may never find out the truth - unless the CA comes clean.
HOWEVER, if BBC paid the CA, they need to get their money back. The article did not show BBC or Donna Gaines in a favorable light. But then again, maybe they printed it as they saw it...
imaresistor said:
I definitely see a star in the making...can't you just see Lifeway shelves lined with books with Donna Gaines on the covers? And all the other stores too...Walmart for instance. Next thing you know Steve and Donna Gaines will be on TBN with the likes of Creflo and Taffy Dollar, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, and on and on. You get the picture. Multi-room mansions, private corporate jets, Rolls-Royce autos, etc. etc. The jet-set.
All in the name of God, of course.
SOTL SAYS:
Yeah, we're know when they are getting close because Donna's boufant hair-do will mysteriously turn a shade of light pink and her eyelashes will grow to about two inches long.
missions51 said:
Most of the ladies who went on the trip, Donna Gaines included, are distraught about the article and very concerned about the well being of the pastor and staff in India.
sotl says:
OH PUHLEEEEEEEEEEZE...what did they THINK was going to happen when they took the CA with them?
Donna sure didn't look too worried about it when they got a shot of all the cavities in her mouth, she was grinning away, having a grand time.
BTW, when I saw that photo of her, it made me remember what my papaw said about smiling in a picure:
" It's vulgar" Now I know why he said that.
mom4,
I just heard DC left for Nepal on the 24th with a group so I guess you will have to wait until the return.
The article looked more like an advertisement with so much information about Bellevue and Donna that didn't have anything to do with the mission.
I saw this earlier. You may find it interesting.
http://mediaverse-memphis.blogspot.com/2007/11/on-worldly-questions.html
from the article:
Yadamma Alloju disobeyed her family's wishes by being baptized at the Grace Sathuluri Conference for Women. She says if her husband finds out he will beat her.
So they use her name in the article and put in on the World Wide Web. Unbelievable.
Fogmachine,
Follow the money from Steve and Donna Gaines all the way to India? Any connection to "Hope for Your Future, LLC?"
I'm totally so over all the secrets and coverups! If Bellevue wants to pay Donna and Steve's non-profit, just let 'em. Let it go, folks.
I have worshipped so much better and I'm getting so much more out of church now that I've left Bellevue. If you have left Bellevue for whatever reason, it's very freeing to just let it go. Bellevue will either survive or it won't. If God finds BBC worthy to do His work, He will let it prosper. If not, BBC will not prosper. There's no 2 way about it. Let's take our hands off, enjoy our new fellowships and move on.
Missed a lot of blogging lately, but I'm keeping up through email. Love y'all!
Karen
Fog's link.
For some background check out this one, the second post in particular.
Mom4 and Nass,
The Victoria's secret outing doesn't jive with the way BBC was teaching when my daughter was in High School.
They had a specific term they used when discouraging the young girls from the desire to shop at that store in particular. Strange...
or you SURE about this outing???
If so, I put that on the same level as a BBC family/dad that invited my son to go to Hooters when he was 14 or 15 (my son didn't bother to ask me ...he knew the answer)
AND showed him an R rated movie without asking me.
Some things need to be at the parents descetion!
Doesn't EVERYONE know that???
gmom,
I'm sure the folks at ECS aren't too thrilled over their chaperone's activities either. I don't believe this was anything but an unthinking decision by said chaperone and should not reflect poorly on the reputation of the school.
What I do know is there were some ECS parents who weren't at all happy about it.
Nass,
I meant the high school SS teachers my daughter had at BBC discouraged the Victoria secret shopping all together. It hasn't been very long ago.
I forgot to think about how the ECS parents would respond...was thinking from a BBC position...sorry!
"If God finds BBC worthy to do His work, He will let it prosper. If not, BBC will not prosper. There's no 2 way about it. Let's take our hands off, enjoy our new fellowships and move on."
Karen, what do you mean by 'prosper'?
The Mormon church is prosperous. So is Joel Osteen and his church. What do you make of that???
Hey Lin,
I meant "prosper" as to be a growing church and not just in noses and nickels. Prosper was the wrong word.
Okay, first of all it was a HALF boufant-do. Not a whole one. Like a semi-boufant. ; 0 Secondly, I pray that Mrs. G. will meet with the CA, and get a correction to ALL MIS-QUOTES... As well as the 30,000 membership statement.<< Not that THAT matters, But; here's a question not yet answered: WHY A REPORTER on a Mission TRIP? Did they hear about it, and beg to go? WHAT? And, I hope Bellevue sues the paper if they really lied and slandered ANYONE. But I think there might be a long wait for that to happen. IN fact, of all the "Lies" told about the Gaines, I have never seen a slander suit materialize. The "CA" is VERY good about printing retractions. So lets wait and see what happens..,
biker boots stated:
sotl stated...
"In order to promote themselves, they 'outed' those precious Indian people. Those poor women are now in danger becuase of those two."
Awfully big assumption you're making there, don't you think?
*** biker boot...sigh...here ya go...no assumption on my part at all. Just read the commercial appeal:
from the article:
Yadamma Alloju disobeyed her family's wishes by being baptized at the Grace Sathuluri Conference for Women. She says if her husband finds out he will beat her.
Biker, maybe you should read the article before you post.
SOTL,
You left out the "in order to promote themselves" - why else would the self-promoting pastor of a mega church and his beauty queen co-pastor wife invite a secular news media team to go along with them on a foreign missions trip that should have remained under the radar?
Pastor Rogers ALWAYS protected the integrity of the church and NEVER put the church's integrity or reputation at even the remotest possibility of bad press. Of course, his cry was "Come to Jesus" - not "OOH OOH, See me, See me!"
I have been following the apostasy and the corruption of the Visible Church for decades now, but the very recent news regarding the betrayal of Jesus Christ that just occured this past weekend is immense and staggering in its' Biblical significance.
See what the so called leaders of Christendom are now doing to betray the Lord and His Word.
CHRISTIAN LEADERS BETRAY CHRIST IN FAVOR OF WORLD PEACE
Watchman, That was a powerful article. Thanks for the link. It's hard to even know what to say. I'm just a handmaiden for Christ and I know we aren't supposed to mix religions. I follow 1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil" very carefully, as much as possible.
The problem is that our definitions have become skewed. Love and tolerance no longer mean the same things. I just can't understand how a foundationally solid Christian would do this. It's a compromise that doesn't need to be made.
Unless things have changed at ECS, the annual Chicago trip is for MIDDLE SCHOOLERS. I know because I've chaperoned it before. If Donna Gaines took 6th, 7th or 8th grade girls to Victoria's Secret, she exhibited no judgment whatsoever. You would think a pastor's wife, or any Christian mother, would know better.
proverbs,
I was told they were in the 15-year-old range, but it still would have been poor judgment. Very poor judgment. Or as you said, "no judgment."
concerned said:
The problem is that our definitions have become skewed. Love and tolerance no longer mean the same things. I just can't understand how a foundationally solid Christian would do this. It's a compromise that doesn't need to be made.
Response:
Our definitions have become skewed because it's easier for people who know better to stay in a situation and remain silent. Most remain silent because they fearfully don't want to confront anyone.
Members who compromise themselves by either not confronting leadership when the leadership is doing wrong or by staying in a situation when they know better only hurt themselves.
Slowly, their compromise makes them hard to the things that they once were very sensitive to. The wrong they couldn't stand now doesn't seem so bad over time. They are so desensitized by the environment they choose to stay in that at some point, they are so far gone, nothing bothers them anymore.
They remind me of a frog being cooked slowly, being placed in cold water sitting on a burner. By the time they realize what has happened, it’s too late for them to do anything about it.
CROSS-BLOG post:
It was deleted on the "other" blog, so I will post it here:
JESSICA BABB wrote...
"I do not read or post on the other blog, so no I will not be speaking to Stephanie about it."
SOTL's reply: No problem, Jessica.
I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that it's the 7th or 8th graders that go to Chicao from ECS. I think they ride the train..I think they used to, anyway.
With all the recent postings of articles by Paul Proctor (whom I'd never heard of until someone here mentioned him a few months ago), I went to his archive and read some of his articles. I have to say I pretty much agree with most of what I've read so far, although I've read only about 15-20 of them.
However, this one I must take exception to. It concerns the young Texas pastor, Kyle Lake, who was electrocuted in a freak baptismal accident a couple of years ago. In it Proctor states this was the judgment of God for Lake's emergent church activities. While I'm no fan of the emergent church or PDL, I'm not going to ever go so far as to say that the death of someone, be it Kyle Lake, Rick Warren, or anyone else, is God's judgment. I'm not God and neither is Paul Proctor.
There are laws of physics that, when violated, can result in injury or death. Standing in a pool of water and grabbing an electrically charged microphone (which shouldn't have been, but it was) is one of those laws. I guess you could say it's God's "judgment" for being careless, but beyond that, we simply don't know. What Paul Proctor said, even if he does believe it to be the truth, was cruel to the man's family, loved ones, and the members of his congregation. I will continue to read more of his articles as time permits, but after this one, I will find it difficult to read them with the same objectivity.
An Address by Jeff Noblit at The Founder's Conference
NBBCOF..
As to your statements regarding Paul Proctor and the article you highlighted...I read it.
I will also admit to some uneasiness as I read the article, however, in light of your post, I beleive this now needs to be stated....Though I also wish to say that I am not a conscripted defender of Paul Proctor..he can do that very well on his own...and needs none of my aid.
As I read that story of the Kyle Lake episode, I went to see where you found Paul Proctor had spoken for GOD.
I didnt see Paul Proctor as Paul Proctor peaking for GOD..I saw Paul Proctor stating that Sovereign God was not stunned, shocked, nor was GOD surprised (by what the papers called a " freakish accident") , nor could GOD be.
God is Sovereign and is Ruler of all angels and men and rules over Lucifer as well, who has a GOD sized noose around his neck. God knows mens' affairs and their lives and even numbers the hairs of our heads.
I viewed Paul Proctor reminding a skeptical and disbeleiving World that GOD is never shocked , nor does God see things as " freakish accidents " ...God has bben, always has been, and always will be the Ultimate Holy and Just giver and taker of life, and that there are "no" freakish accidents in GODS THRONEROOM...and , ..in the realm of OUR KINGS ETERNAL SOVEREIGNTY that is 100 %TRUE.
God is King of Life and Death , and absolutely nothing occurs outside of His sovereignty. Job suffered at Satans hand...but only as God allowed Satan to test JOB...
Before God showed me His total and complete sovreignty in all of life and death , I used to also want to beleive that somehow men or women were the unlikely causes of or victims of ..accidents and fatalities and deaths,and that these events were outside of GODS sovereignty... but... in the Biblical analysis of GODS ETERNAL WORD... I cannot dent that God is sovereign in both what we deem good fortune and what we see as unfathomable and accidental tragic events.
In all of GODS WORD , There are no counter claims to GODS soeverignty OVER " ALL " OF THE AFFAIRS OF MEN...
In fact ...the Bible says.. all men are " appointed " once to die....
appointed.............
No mistakes, no accidents, no slip throughs, no surprises , no early withdrawals that escape GODS Sovereignty....Neither in earth , nor in Heaven.
NBBCOF ...
God knew all of that emergent church Pastors' life story before that baptismal service, and He knew it all during the baptismal service and He knew full well what happened during and afterward as well.
I beleive that you have missed that Paul Proctor was very starkly reminding everyone that GOD is much , much, much, larger and in control more than mortal men give HIM credit for...
He who placed tha stars in heaven and placed them at their exact orbit and called the sea to stop at the seashores, and caused dust to breathe, walk, and eat, and call Eve by name.....is not one wit stunned or surprised by any event that occurs on planet earth with HIS created Universe.
Yes..God is Sovereign..
Even in the global apostasy and the fall of the Visible Church and Bellevue Baptist.
Its us who dont get it..., and we hurt,...so we choose to forget that HE does get it, knew it was all going to occur, and knows that will be the Will of GOD that will ultimately be unfolded through immeasurable pain.
For HIS ultimate and complete Glory.
Though we most times wont' or don't understand it.
May God Richly Bless You and All of His Children who are being this day mocked, ridiculed, ignored,shunned, and kicked out of apostate Churches for His Names' sake....
Amen
Watchman
...
watchman wrote:
"I saw Paul Proctor stating that Sovereign God was not stunned, shocked, nor was GOD surprised (by what the papers called a 'freakish accident') , nor could GOD be."
And of course he's correct here, but then he took it a step beyond and if he didn't come right out and say it, he very strongly implied that God took this man's life because of his emergent church activities. My point is that neither Paul Proctor, you, nor I know why God chose to take Kyle Lake's life when He did. We can speculate all day, but the bottom line is... we do not know.
"God is King of Life and Death , and absolutely nothing occurs outside of His sovereignty."
I have always believed this and never said otherwise. What I said was that going against the laws of physics can result in injury or death. We may call these things "accidents," but that doesn't detract in any way from the sovereignty of God, nor am I implying that God isn't in control.
"I beleive that you have missed that Paul Proctor was very starkly reminding everyone that GOD is much , much, much, larger and in control more than mortal men give HIM credit for..."
Nope. I didn't miss this point at all, and I agree with it. However, I still contend it was cruel and insensitive to the man's family, loved ones, and congregation to state some of the things that were in this article. He could have made all the same points without making it personal and causing more grief for this man's family.
I wonder what Proctor would have liked to see the papers call it. "God's vengeance"? I think "freakish" is a pretty good description.
So why did reading it make you uneasy?
nbbcof...thanks for your thoughtful and well recieved reply..
Now that we have agreed on the Sovereignty issue, ...I must tell you that I was uneasy due to the tenor or tone of the article and knowing how it could be easily misinterpreted as being simply mean-spirited. I, of course, do not know Pauls heart, and cannot discern with certainty on that account.
Gods' Blessings
Watchman
TESTING THE FAITH
Electrocuted pastor's final prayer: 'Surprise me, God'
Ironic theme in case of Christian minister shocked to death during baptism
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
The theme of the final prayer delivered last week by a Christian pastor who was electrocuted during a baptism was, ironically, "Surprise me, God."
That disclosure came this morning on the national radio program, Coast to Coast AM, by Terry Esau, author of "Surprise Me, a 30-Day Faith Experiment," who had been invited to speak at the University Baptist Church in Waco, Texas.
During a service last Sunday morning, Rev. Kyle Lake was standing in waist-high water as he prepared to baptize a woman. When he reached for a corded microphone, the 33-year-old was jolted by electricity, and did not survive. The woman going to be baptized was unharmed.
The incident took place just minutes after the 800 members in attendance had prayed aloud, "Surprise me, God."
Paul Proctor comments, “… judging from some of the Emergent blogs I've read, participants are sorely troubled and confused by this tragedy.
Some are having difficulty accepting the fact that God would allow someone they loved, believed in, trusted and followed to be taken from them in such a horrible and abrupt manner right before their very eyes, like a frat house spectacle Christian bashers might stage for a Halloween gag, leaving who knows how many traumatized for life.”
Churchmouse comments:
May I share my thoughts on this? After reading the articles, I spent the evening reading about “sin unto death.” ( I John 5:16 and following is a good place to begin.) It left me more confused than when I started.
I think the heart of the debate is whether Paul Proctor had the authority to “call” this one. One fact is unarguable. God allowed this to happen. God is not in the business of striking down every “prophet” who leads a flock astray. But, He allowed THIS to happen.
Here is an excellent video clip of Dr. Alain Cairns warning that Pastors must NOT ever be Popes , but their only final authority must be GODS WORD.
PASORS MUST NOT BE POPES
churchmouse,
Your last paragraph sums it up nicely.
Let me make it more personal if you don't mind. Let's say Churchmouse reads Purpose Driven Life and decides it's the most wonderfulest book ever written. (Actually I know someone who thinks that.) And 'mouse begins telling all the other 'mice, and they in turn tell all their little 'mouse friends and so on until PDL is all the churchmice talk about. They begin forming "small groups" and sensitively seeking unenlightened 'mice to join them. (I think PDL is why I cringe whenever I hear the term "small group" used today, but I digress.)
Our own little 'mouse has started a whole movement among the 'mouse community which quickly spreads to other 'mouse communities.
Now, one day our 'mouse is witnessing to a group of 'mice and telling them all about how they have a "purpose," too, when suddenly, with no warning whatsoever, a huge owl swoops down out of the sky, grabs our little 'mouse, and carries her off, never to be seen again! All the other 'mice are shocked and horrified at such a sight. 'Mouse's family is distraught. Mr. 'Mouse and their little mouselets grieve over the loss of their beloved matriarch.
The memory of witnessing such a shocking event fresh on their little 'mouse minds, 'mouse's family and friends are still mourning her loss when a big gray 'mouse who lives in a far off village, a 'mouse who has never even met our beloved Churchmouse, proclaims that God took Churchmouse out because of what she was preaching. How does the big gray 'mouse know this for certain? Does he have a direct line to God? Did God tell him the reason He allowed such a "freakish accident"?
Perhaps, but what purpose (no pun intended) does it serve for the big gray 'mouse to announce his theory to the world? Are the other 'mice going to look at Churchmouse's early demise and take it as a warning that they, too, are risking becoming the lunch entree for some hungry owl, or will this simply compound their grief? Would the big gray 'mouse be willing to say that to the faces of Churchmouse's bereaved family and friends?
As Bea Arthur's character, Maude, used to say, "God'll get you for that, Walter!"
I think we all stand in awe when we witness or even read about an incident like the young pastor's untimely death. Questions? Yes. Many!
But to ascribe God's judgment to that or anything else crosses a line.
Somewhere in all this we must acknowledge God's grace. I am thankful that in spite of many times my exuberance and zeal have been at a level that would probably offend some, but God in His grace has always been there for me. The example of 'Surprise me, God' is something I could probably have participated in at some point. I think I have learned better now, but still have weak areas in my life that require His grace.
Reminds me of a D. L. Moody quote (I think)- God is knowable, but NOT comprehensible.
In our quest to 'know' God, we must be careful that we don't become prideful because of our knowledge! Really knowing God produces humility.
NASS said,
... a huge owl swoops down out of the sky, grabs our little 'mouse,
Reply: "oooooooh, goodness, what a nightmare!" I will never hear an owl and not think of your story, NASS. 8^) Sputter, sputter. Neither will I stand in water and chant for God to surprise me. I still struggle with "Thy will be done."
As for the family of Mr. Kyle, this is sad. Yes, I am sorry for them.
I'm sorry I traumatized you, 'mouse. But I had to make the illustration relevant to you.
You know, I bet Kyle Lake's family will never see a baptistry and not think of their loved one's death and Paul Proctor's story either.
Anybody who denies the wrath of God speaks against divine revelation — for the wrath of God is plainly revealed in His Word. There is little so designed to cause carnal pastors to search their hearts, as to expand upon the fact that "God is angry with the wicked every day" (Ps. 7:11). The forerunner of Christ warned people to "flee from the wrath to come" (Matt. 3:7). The Savior bade His auditors "Fear Him, which after He hath killed, hath power to cast into Hell; yea, I say unto you. Fear Him" (Luke 12:5). The apostle Paul said, "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men" (2 Cor. 5:11). The word, wrath, appears in the Bible 198 times in the KJV.
However, I sense in the flow of conversation that the wrath of God is not the issue ongoing in this blog. The issue is whether or not Paul Proctor overstepped his bounds in publishing his article pointing out the wrath of God upon Kyle Lake as he saw it. As with any journalist, the written word is always the opinion of the writer. The judgment is with the reader. Upon examining this issue…one thing is being overlooked. Consider the story. According to the news story, this pastor was head of an eight hundred member congregation…which is/was an emergent church. This bit of information tells us that this is an apostate church. This pastor was teaching a different Jesus...heresy. Romans 1:18 tells us, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.” There are many, many scriptures about this. Is a man who writes on Truth not morally bound to ‘sound the trumpet’? The Bible tells us to expose false prophets. This is what Paul Proctor does…he sounds the trumpet; he exposes false teaching. He has been providing this ministry to people for years. Why should he have avoided this story? It is a sad thing that so many witnessed this execution. It is a sad thing that his family probably witnessed this execution. It is a sad thing that false prophets are teaching a false gospel that is leading men, women and children to hell. I pray that this man did not die in vain, but that through the story many have come to a new understanding of what truth is. I pray that many have renewed their minds to a new and more thorough understanding of what it means to fear God. Now…did Paul Proctor overstep his bounds by publishing this story as he saw it? I don’t think so. Hopefully, he awakened many to a new understanding of what the fear of God is through this article. Did this article offend the victim’s family? I don’t have the answer to that. Perhaps it did. Perhaps it awakened them to the fear of God as well. I have wondered many times since I read this story some time ago…why, why did this man stand in a body of water and reach for an object that he knew was plugged into an electrical socket? It makes no sense. But again, I don’t have the answer to that either. The only thing I do know for certain is that our Lord, Jesus Christ, was executed before the multitudes…humiliated and ridiculed and tortured beyond belief! His family was there…they saw their loved one tortured and murdered for telling Truth.
I pray for the victim’s family…I pray for all those present at the time of this man’s death. But I won’t blind myself to the Truth of the circumstances. We don’t need to persecute anybody for telling the Truth or taking a stand for God.
Ima
Ima.....
All I can say is WOW!
My knowledge of God is based on His grace. NOT his wrath. Jesus suffered that for us.
On your presumption we all deserve a lightning bolt or electrical jolt.
One thing I know. He has a remnant and they are not all of one persuasion.
I heard Dr. Angel Martinez, SBC evangelist of days gone by, teach the book of Hebrews. He made an interesting point about the question - how will the heathen be judged who never heard the Gospel? He offered the thought that perhaps God would judge them on the basis of 'IF' they had heard, how they would have responded.
My point is that none of us has an edge on TRUTH. The Bible can be argued many ways.
Personally I think it causes harm to the cause of Christ to be so harsh in our judgments.
Romans 8:1-4
"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."
I think I have heard most of the arguments, and the greatest gift we have to share with others is the love of Christ. NOT the wrath of God.
The emergent church is not our enemy. Many in that movement are genuine brothers and sisters in Christ. I do not think they will meet the wrath of God because of that.
Angel Martinez. Wow, now there's a blast from the distant past! I can still envision him preaching, wearing a pastel pink sport coat. Dude, we're so old!
I do not know what to think of the situation with the young pastor. When I read his prayer before the electrocution, I was stunned beyond words. I read this a long time ago and I still recall his words: Surprise me.
But why are other false teachers allowed to grow their ministries so huge and lead so many into heresy? Why does Joel Osteen or Benny Hinn get a pass so far? These are questions we will never know the answer to until the end.
God is Sovereign. He allowed this to happen. But you know what? If my hair dryer falls into my tub, I am goign to die. I know of an 18 mo old baby who touched a wire of the garage door opener which was on the side of garage door and was electrocuted. What are we to make of that? Neglegence?
Eprov wrote: All I can say is WOW!
My knowledge of God is based on His grace. NOT his wrath. Jesus suffered that for us."
If the message is not balanced, there is NO grace. Grace means nothing wihtout understanding the wrath we deserve.
"On your presumption we all deserve a lightning bolt or electrical jolt."
We do deserve it. We deserve it because God is total Justice. And sin must be punished. But in His Mercy He sent Jesus Christ to take that Wrath for those who repent and believe on Jesus Christ.
" He made an interesting point about the question - how will the heathen be judged who never heard the Gospel? He offered the thought that perhaps God would judge them on the basis of 'IF' they had heard, how they would have responded. "
God already knows who they are and how they will respond because only HE can open hearts to repent and believe. We would never believe apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. We have a charge to take the gospel to all the nations. We have no power over the outcome. We are in sales...not management. :o)
"My point is that none of us has an edge on TRUTH. The Bible can be argued many ways."
There are some muddy areas in secondary doctrines but the essentials are quite clear. God is totally Soveriegn. God is perfect Justice. God is Wrath and God is patient. He is Love and Mercy which is why He sent Jesus.
"Personally I think it causes harm to the cause of Christ to be so harsh in our judgments."
We cannot really harm the cause of Christ. He can make the very rocks cry out and praise Him if He so desires.
I think we lead people to hell with cheap grace that means nothing. If we do not see that we are totally depraved sinners who can not save ourselves..never be good enough and are in need of a Savior, that Grace means nothing.
When you are faced with your total depravity, you are so broken and that GRACE is everything. It is life itself.
Walking an aisle and saying a prayer mean nothing if we are not regenerated which is a work of God. And if He began a good work, He will finish it. (Sanctification)
The church has lied to lots of people about salvation and what it is. Jesus Christ told us the gate is narrow and few find it. He also told us that many who profess the Name of Jesus will be told, "I never knew you". He was NOT talking about heathens. He was talking about professing Christians.
If what I write sounds judgemental, I want everyone to know my heart is heavy with grief and concern for those around me who have believed the lie of easy believism which means sanctification is not necessary. My heart is heavy with our practice of infant baptism (5 year olds)because we think if they say that sinners prayer they are saved. The question is: Are they regenerated.
My heart is heavy with those who think they are saved but have NO fruit of regeneration except taht they think living a moral life and attending church are regeneration. It is not. This teaching is going on everywhere.
And it is going on because very few dare teach about God's wrath before they teach about the grace.
Eprov,
As always, thanks for your remarks. Many times, we have to agree to disagree. You said,
"The emergent church is not our enemy. Many in that movement are genuine brothers and sisters in Christ. I do not think they will meet the wrath of God because of that."
This remark is somewhat alarming to me. The emergent church is most definitely our enemy. Please do some study on this movement. You might start by watching this presentation by Roger Oakland of Understanding the Times.
Emergent Church by Roger Oakland
Ima
Another Pastor charged with raping a child:
Another Pastor Charged with rape of a child
ima said:
"This is what Paul Proctor does…he sounds the trumpet; he exposes false teaching. He has been providing this ministry to people for years. Why should he have avoided this story? It is a sad thing that so many witnessed this execution. It is a sad thing that his family probably witnessed this execution. It is a sad thing that false prophets are teaching a false gospel that is leading men, women and children to hell. I pray that this man did not die in vain, but that through the story many have come to a new understanding of what truth is."
Lynn's response:
Uh, I hate to throw the penalty flag on this but I have to. I do think the reference to such a tragedy as an execution is off the mark. Using the term execution implies that this person has committed an act worthy of being put to death. As much as I dislike the Emerging Church and PDL, to call a tragic accident an execution is quite distasteful and insulting to his family.
Ima,
All respect, dear, to your experiences and concerns, but it is very inappropriate to refer to the pastor's death by electrocution as an "execution" -- and just as presumptious as the article by Paul Proctor that NASS referred to. The point is that, regardless of how wrong a person's theology or life might be, we simply cannot with certainty state that when a calamity falls on that person it is a direct act of divine judgment.
Lynn...
Thank you for being so kind as to direct me to my faults in the questioned post. I should have used the word, 'electrocution, electrocuted' instead. Although the words electrocution and execution are used interchangeably, the latter is the least desirable in this instance. The term electrocution can mean either:
murder, accidental death, or suicide by electric shock. So I would assume this would be correct and meet with your approval? And I apologize to you and anyone else I offended by the assumed misuse of words. And may we clarify this: I do not take any pleasure in the fact that this young man met his demise in this manner. For anyone to assume such idiocies certainly doesn't know me. And I would appreciate any further mention to my insulting this man’s family. That in itself is quite insulting to me. I trust you might remove your red flags now?
Also, Ima, it is not persecution of Mr. Proctor to politely disagree with his opinions, or to state the opinion that he shoudn't have implied that the pastor's death was due to God's judgment on the pastor's teachings. Not picking on you, but it seems that your post on this topic reflected more of an (understandable) emotional response than a carefully reasoned analysis.
It's just not "our place" in my opinion and I am personally uncomfortable by this discussion.
We share and learn so much from each other, BUT I think we can use our time much more wisely than debating this.
None of us can really get our little brains around how and why God makes the world spin.
We didn't like it when our "friends" told us it was a good thing that the church(BBC) was being cleansed of US...they were calling our grief and pain revival...
or when it was said that "God took Bro R" ....
who are we to do anything but grieve for the people affected by something so traumatic??? JMHO
Thanks for clearing that up, ima. Actually when I skimmed through your comment as I published it, I read it as "electrocution," not "execution." Which means I either need glasses or more sleep. {sigh}
gmom wrote:
"We didn't like it when our "friends" told us it was a good thing that the church(BBC) was being cleansed of US...they were calling our grief and pain revival...
or when it was said that "God took Bro R" ....
who are we to do anything but grieve for the people affected by something so traumatic???"
Exactly.
Junk,
Where have you been hiding lately???
Ima...we love you:)
gmommy,
Was on vacation for the TG holiday, but I've been reading to keep up. Just thought I'd throw in some of my own thoughts on this most recent (unwise use of time) debate.
:)
Ima, ditto on what gmommy just said. :)
Well, now that everyone has discussed this issue, go get some Ho Ho's and plan on your next bowling party strategy. Anyone have a scented bowling ball?
Ima, Lynn, Lin, et al....
As we know from any type writing to communicate, it is difficult to make a comprehensive, exhaustive case for most any assumption.
In my opinion that is why it is critical to accept any post in that light.
Our bond is the love of Christ.
Our freedom is the grace of God.
As the son of a country Baptist preacher, the 3rd generation of rural Baptists, I assure you I have a strong background exposure to the 'wrath of God.'
My faith is settled. My beliefs are settled. I assure all of you that I haven't 'arrived.' It is a journey and I am amazed at how God chooses to reveal Himself to us on this journey.
I learn from each one who posts here. I certainly do not have all the answers. Unfortunately most of the time I have an opinion! LOL
Blessings to all today and thanks for the efforts made to contribute to these discussions.
I would like to suggest a new thread; ....
Since reaching back in time to pull out perceived past insensitivities of men has proven itself to be such an apparently "useful " mission and tool in promoting Koinania and Truth and faithful witness on this blog.
watchman,
I would consider it... if I had a clue what you're talking about, but I don't. E-mail me with the particulars, please.
Blessings to all today and thanks for the efforts made to contribute to these discussions.
7:40 AM, November 30, 2007
Eprov, I wasn't worried about you. But everyone reading who usually only hear about Grace. I should have made that clear. Talk about bad communicating.
Concerned: Ho Ho's? I am ashamed of you all. Tsk. Tsk.
BTW: I have a doctrinal question. I have been secretly pulverizing broccoli and putting it in pimento cheese for my daughter's lunch box sandwich.
Is this deception?
Also, she mentioned it 'tasted different' and I kept my mouth shut. Was this lying by ommission?
I am in a quandry but desparate to get some veggies in her without a beating or a 4 hour table standoff.
"I have been secretly pulverizing broccoli and putting it in pimento cheese for my daughter's lunch box sandwich.
"Is this deception?"
Not only is it deception, it's child abuse. Blech!
lin....
The veggie deal.
My wife and I have 5 kids, all young adults now, and 1 twin son who never and still doesn't eat veggies!~
He spent 5 years in Marines, is a super guy, and in good health. In fact works with me.
He is the 5th born. If he had been the 1st.....we would have been doing as you.
I know you will have guilt but if you can get to a point of not caring about that, you will live longer and healthier!
Just give the kid a Ho Ho.
Lin,
A mom's gotta do what a mom's gotta do....
I slipped in St John's Wart to my son's morning vitamins when he was in middle school and seemed to be on an emotional roller coaster
(more down than up....3 weeks later he told me how much better he felt...was I deceptive????? Probably.
BUT, when my daughter figured out there was no Santa
(shut up...I was young)
her response to me was...."you've been lying to me all these years!!!!"
I told my son he would die if he ever smoked a cigarette....not realizing he would take me SO literally...he tried and didn't die....I lost some credibility :(
Broccoli seemes pretty safe in my humble opinion...you are not lying...
I've been known to slip some healthy stuff into milk shakes :)
St. John had warts? Who'd have ever thought? And how in the world did you get hold of one?
Nass...you are so funny...
I always tell people I will let them know in another 10 years what I did right or wrong with my son....you just gotta go with your gut.
I am always ready to ask my kids for forgiveness and own what I did wrong...but during the process, sometimes it's hard to tell.
ConcernedSBCer,
Will there be any Rotel casseroles at the next bowling match?????
Lin said:
I am in a quandry but desparate to get some veggies in her without a beating or a 4 hour table standoff.
oc says:
Hmmmm. I reckon it depends on who's gettin' the beatin'. :)
Just sayin'.
oc.
I guess this means that no one will eat my casserole at the next blog party?
Eprov, You nailed me. This is my first and only child. My friends who have a houseful tell me that you go from being Gestapo parent to Oscar Madison in some of the pesky details of eating and cleaning.
At church on Sunday, a harried mom in my SS class showed up holding a bunch of stuff in her arms but clutching in her fingers a half eaten, lint covered peppermint. We asked her about it and she said, her kid was eating it, dropped it and refused to eat the rest. She said that another mom with 4 kids walked by and said, Oh, it is perfect!~ It is pre-licked and comes straight from the floor. Give it back to him. :o)
gmommy, I never told my daughter about Santa Claus and I wasn't worried because we NEVER go to the Mall. :o)
When she was 4, I HAD to go to the Mall to pick up something for my brother. I was rushing to get out (I HATE the mall) when we turned a corner and there in his huge gold castle with twirling snow fairies and twinkling lights was Santa sitting on his throne.
My daughter stopped dead in her tracks and shouted: MOMMY! Who IS that man?
I had forgotten all about evils of 'MALL SANTA'.
So what to do? Find a Starbucks, get a coffee, have a seat and explain. So much for a quick mall trip.
So I told her the whole sorted Santa story of crass commercialization for greedy gain and the negation of Jesus Christ....YET she still wanted to meet him so we stood in line. When it was her turn, she refused to sit his lap but stood in front of him on the stool and proceeded to tell him he REALLY did not bring all the gifts because she got gifts last year before she met him. (my little prosecuting attorney?)
He told her to sit on his lap and get her picture taken or move along. So she sat down and asked him if he was hot in that outfit and if his hair was real.
I know she now likes the 'idea' of Santa but clearly does not trust him. :o) As it should be.
Hillary gets standing ovation at Rick Warrens Saddleback Church
HILLARY GETS STANDING O AT SADDLEBACK
Watchman...
Sounds interesting...
For anyone following Warren, etc.:
Rick Warren's Inquisition by Between the Line's Joseph Farah
What is the purpose of Rick Warren supporting Hillary???? What's in it for him???
She's not just "a little bit" pro death for babies...she stands for late term partial birth abortion....
HOW does ANY follower of Christ (or mom)....much less a leader...justify that???
I'd like to understand the logical thinking of this support.
Watchman...to clarify, I am talking about this post! Ha! Seems I am doing a lot of clarifying!
"watchman said...
I would like to suggest a new thread; ....
Since reaching back in time to pull out perceived past insensitivities of men has proven itself to be such an apparently "useful " mission and tool in promoting Koinania and Truth and faithful witness on this blog."
Ima
8:22 AM, November 30, 2007
GMommy: Your order for Rotel casserole has been place and will be filled.
I hope the whole bowling alley doesn't smell it though.....everyone might want to come early!
:-)
ConcernedSBCer,
Yummy Yummy!!!!
Concernedsbcer,
The whole bowling alley is smelling it. And we are hungry for food and fellowship. Get ready. We are on the way. :)
oc.
gmommy said...
What is the purpose of Rick Warren supporting Hillary???? What's in it for him???
She's not just "a little bit" pro death for babies...she stands for late term partial birth abortion....
HOW does ANY follower of Christ (or mom)....much less a leader...justify that???
I'd like to understand the logical thinking of this support.
3:31 PM, November 30, 2007
gmommy, for that matter, how does anyone even want to even support Hillary. Doesn't Warren know that Hillary wants to take away his money? Hillary is a disciple of Saul Olinsky. A major communist. If I was Warren, I'd better be careful and not get on her bad side. Just ask Vince Foster and Ron Brown.
Ima
I was not referring to any posts that you made.
No need to clarify anything with me.
The FBCJax blog (link on front page) is back in action with some interesting topics of discussion.
In response to information about the changes in the bylaws orchestrated by Mac Brunson, someone wrote:
anonymous said...
A discipline committee made up people appointed by the pastor? Oh my! Check out webster's definition:
goon squad - (gune skwad) - see also: "discipline committee." A group of persons used to harrass, intimidate and influence others for the purpose of silencing any dissent. Commonly used in large Southern Baptist Churches. See also: Steve Gaines.
November 29, 2007 9:29 AM
NASS chuckles. Would the author of that care to 'fess up?
Nass: I saw that post on Jax and had to laugh. Classic.
All: Remember to check your calendars for the next bowling party. It's getting close. Polish those bowling balls and deodorize those shoes!
Mysticism and Polotics Converge at Saddleback Church Summitt.
Mysticism and Polotics converge at Saddleback Church
concerned,
Oh my!! My shoes are polished, but what shall i wear?
SOTL,
How 'bout that little polka dot number and the matching tiara?
Nass,
That was SOTL's SUMMER tiara....I'm sure she has a winter one!!!
Surprise us, SOTL!!!
In a recent post on his blog, Wade Burleson quoted an article written in 1990 by Mike Huckabee (Southern Baptist minister, former pastor, former President of the Arkansas Baptist State Convention, former Arkansas Governor, and current candidate for the President of the United States). I thought Huckbee's words were worth sharing here:
“The ‘L’ word that may characterize our greatest threat is not liberalism but legalism. If all the liberals in Arkansas Baptist churches held a meeting, they could meet in the corner booth of a Waffle House and still have room for guests.
Legalism is the reduction of the whole of the Bible to a rather limited system of ‘do’s’ and ‘don’ts’ that the one espousing already lives. By carefully limiting ‘right and wrong’ to those beliefs or practices one already adheres to, the legalist is able to always be right and never wrong. Convenient system to be sure. It requires no struggle of conscience, no agonizing soul-searching, no brokenness. Others aren’t judged by the character of Christ, but by the behavior of the legalist.
Legalism is not limited to the theological camp of the conservatives, moderates or anyone in between or beyond. Like a worthless weed, it grows in whatever soil it is planted and is capable of choking out anything that gets in its way without ever producing fruit of value.
Biblical faith is sure about God, but never so sure about self. Legalistic faith is sure of self, and may or may not be as sure of God and His Word. A legalist questions everyone else’s motives and mission, but never sees a need to question his own. A strong Christian is not only interested in believing right, but living right. A strong Christian should want others to be more like Jesus, not more ‘like me.’
We do not live under ‘Lord Law,’ ‘Lord Tradition,’ ‘Lord Religion’ or even ‘Lord Belief.’ We are saved when we confess ‘Lord Jesus.’ When He is Lord, we learn a new ‘L’ word – love. Jesus said that the world would know we belonged to Him not because we worship the same, believe the same or even live the same, but because we love one another.”
Junkster,
A most excellent post, my brother.
Thank you for that.
It is often times way too easy to be "legal". And often times way too hard to "love".
But the Lord demands "love", right?
Where does He demand "Law"?
Hmmmm. I believe there is Scripture about the requirement of the Law being satisfied by love.
I think I need to study deeper, and pray a lot more.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Poppy Joy lived 3 hours...there are pictures on Angie's website.
concernedSBCer said...
All: Remember to check your calendars for the next bowling party. It's getting close. Polish those bowling balls and deodorize those shoes!
Or vice versa! (Especially if your bowling ball smells like spoiled Spam -- not naming any names, of course.)
gmom wrote:
"Poppy Joy lived 3 hours...there are pictures on Angie's website."
Link.
Somebody better save me some of that Rotel casserole. I'm always tardy. But cut me some slack, I'm a Midtowner.
Sure thing Cakes...I'll save you some...tehehe...
OC, is this new info for you????
Gmommy.
It just never gets easier.
Just sayin'.
me.
Cakes said...
Somebody better save me some of that Rotel casserole. I'm always tardy. But cut me some slack, I'm a Midtowner.
8:00 PM, December 01, 2007
Hey! I'm coming from Fayette County :D
And I am getting there EARLY!!!!
Greetings all!
Am looking forward to another secret meeting (at the bowling alley of course).
Anyway, it has taken a while to get caught up - it was a struggle to keep up with the theology issues between Amazed and EZ. As enlightening as it can oftentimes be, I am glad it slacked up.
When is Hillary coming to BBC?
P.S. Gmommy, it seems you are getting back to "normal".
Lily,
I don't know if "normal" would be an appropriate word :)
I'm still not my hyperactive multi task self BUT I'm healing nicely.
Going to try for church tomorrow.
Don't mistake me for Loretta Lynn...
no opportunity to get a hair cut in a while :)
BTW....I think it was Astounded and EZ...I get amazed and astounded confused sometimes too!
Cakes: Don't you worry....I'm making a DOUBLE batch!!!
Hey AOG......there might be some Ho Ho's at the bowling alley too. You coming????
Hey guys......interesting stuff happening at FBC Jax. It seems their pastor read Sam Shaw and Steve Gaines' playbook. Also, apparently their pastor's wife is on the committee that censured Wade Burleson....interesting twist, huh?
Where do you think it's going to end? Do you think the SBC is going to fall apart or do you think the "countermovement" will turn the tide?
As shown in previous posts, is Rick Warren totally losing his way, or what?
Thanks for the directional on names Gmommy. I have not had sleep since Thursday (and not that much then), so my brain coordinates are way off.
Have missed seeing you at church. I will probably not make it in the a.m. despite the fact that I would love to be there - mentally and physically I am past my limit.
I'm impressed I could do the word verification! ;-)
Oh - just had to tell this one....
The next word verification was
gimommo - That's what I'm gonna call Gmommy from now on.
Where is John the Baptist?????? He hasn't been around for a long time.
I love that....Gimommo! Sounds Italian....I should have come up with that myself!!
Lily Pad, not good to miss sleep...was that on purpose????If it was....you're more tuff than I am!!!Hope you are OK.
SOTL,
Have you sent out our watches yet?????
BTW - sleep deprivation is not something I would ever elect to do on purpose. Have been on a most gruelling (sp?) trip. I think I'll sign off and go enjoy some delusional thinking. And yes, I know your comments, how is that different from your normal self??
Lily,
Quite the contrary...I admire your thinking!!!!
Sleep well!!!
I found this old discussion on pastors.com a few days ago. First time I'd looked there in many months, and I still don't know why I bothered. Boredom, I guess!
In case you don't remember, that's Rick Warren's discussion forum where they talk about such topics as "shooting the wolves," i.e. those fuddy-duddy church members who dare question having their churches hijacked and PDC methods shoved down their throats.
The subject (as usual) was "transitioning," and Bellevue was mentioned. Aren't these lovely sentiments? I wonder if Bellevue's current pastor and music minister would agree with these writers' assessments of Jim Whitmire's worship style? They must really pity those poor people at FBCJax now. (I do, too, but the reasons have nothing to do with JW.)
Oh, wait... never mind. I remember the answer to my question now.
04/21/2007 11:12 AM
by billmartin
My kids and I just watched a broadcast worship service from Adrian's time -- probably the last year of his life. It is incredibly difficult to believe that everybody didn't see the need for an update in worship style. It was very much the style of the mid-40's to late-50s. Done very well but done in an archaic style. Even the "contemporary" songs were done in a Jim Nabors kind of style. Not bad for a certain generation, perhaps, but not likely to reach anyone under the age of 60.
Definitely music for the "club members."
04/21/2007 11:39 AM
mmitchell
Bill,
i am confident you are dead on in your evaluation of the style of worship there. However, I DO think there is an audience for that kind of music. I believe it is quite attractive to those who have never gone very far in the faith. They may have sat in the pews for years or they may have been away from the church for a long time.
It is attractive because they are looking for something familiar, they long for the sights and sounds of yesterday, they worship the "sameness" and become protective about defending the only kind of worship they have ever known - no matter how empty it is.
You see, if you are not really there to worship God, naturally, you never have your spirit moved - since you never encounter HIm - so you become passionate about an alternative. In this case - getting your flesh stroked as you file in each week - thinking that is what "good christians" do.
Their heart is not moved. Their walk is not furthered. They are, for all practical purposes dead spiritually. Like the folks walking year after year around the mountain because they would not enter the promise land. It's sad.
Mark
NASS posted this comment by Bill Martin:
"My kids and I just watched a broadcast worship service from Adrian's time -- probably the last year of his life. It is incredibly difficult to believe that everybody didn't see the need for an update in worship style. It was very much the style of the mid-40's to late-50s. Done very well but done in an archaic style. Even the "contemporary" songs were done in a Jim Nabors kind of style. Not bad for a certain generation, perhaps, but not likely to reach anyone under the age of 60."
REPLY: Pardon, please, if I may borrow a phrase from one of the greatest preachers and Bible teachers that ever walked on this earth, the above statement is a "lie from the pit of h ---." Mr. Martin, sir, you have been sitting too close to the fogmachine.
Hey, I like Jim Nabors!
churchmouse wrote:
"if I may borrow a phrase from one of the greatest preachers and Bible teachers that ever walked on this earth, the above statement is a 'lie from the pit of h ---.'"
Uh... you mean hisserpent/4545/whyne?
Steve Gaines told this story in this morning's TV broadcast which was from November 18th (if anyone wants to listen):
"I remember one time... heh heh... I was at Gardendale and a little boy came home(?) and said, 'Brother Steve, my daddy has beer in the... beer in the... in the uh... refrigerator.' I knew the daddy. I said, 'You go pour it out, and if he has a problem with... with it, you say... tell him here's my number. Call Brother Steve.' Should I have done that? Probably not. But I tell ya what. I'm glad I did. Amen? Don't send me a letter on that one either. I don't want to hear about it."
Reminds me of when DG took the group of girls out to TP houses last year, and one of them stated that she didn't think her parents would approve of that activity. DG reportedly said something like, "Just don't tell them about it."
Hey Folks...There some interesting letters to the editor in todays CA concerning BBC and the trip to India.
Hey Junk, Did you read the comments about the definition of inerrancy? Vedy Interesting.
gmommy said...
Nass,
That was SOTL's SUMMER tiara....I'm sure she has a winter one!!!
Surprise us, SOTL!!!
1:11 PM, December 01, 2007
sotl:
ok, if you insist :)
I want it duly noted that the post from 9:27 hacked me off! What a bunch of NONSENSE!
Who are those people?????
Nass,
When it was posted that SG told the child not to tell his parents....I was appalled and stated why.
Now...here we go again....SG sure needs to run some of these dysfunctional, unhealthy, comments by someone wise.
Talk about backwards!!!!
It is NEVER the child's responsibility to take on a task like that. If SG thought it was so wrong for the dad to have beer
(IF this little story in fact happened at all)
then SG should have been the adult and the man and the pastor and gone to the dad himself.
An adult should NEVER put that burden on a child.
Would SG be smirking IF the dad had beat the child????
How irresponsible! Not unlike other decisions SG has made in and bragged about.
I feel so sad that BBC has such an immature, undignified, and UNWISE pastor!!!
There are enough bad examples in the world!!!
SOTL,
Oh yes...we do insist!!!! :)
Have you ever thought about why the PD and emergent folks want to change the music? The old hymns have a gospel message. They don't mix well with the PD doctrine. Think about it:
The Old Rugged Cross - sends the wrong message!! We want you to find a purpose - not cling to a sad old cross.
Onward Christian Soldiers - glorifies war. We are trying to usher in the Millinium without an Armageddon
Saved, Saved! - maybe - if we sang Churched, Churched! - does have a livily beat
There Is a Fountain - doesn't lend itself to clapping or swaying - talks about BLOOD
Rock of Ages - sounds like a song about old people (aged) ...the lyrics are just...pure old gospel message...antiquated. We need something...new...
A Mighty Fortress -TOO HEAVY for folks with a short attention span
I Surrender All - well maybe, if you are talking about finances;
Let's do something more contemporary. Let's all join hands and sing CUM-BA-YA. Here are the lyrics, in case you don't know them:
Traditional - Kum Ba Ya Lyrics
Kum ba ya, my lord...
Kum ba ya...(3x)
Oh , Lord.. Kum ba ya
Someone's cryin Lord... Kum ba ya
(3x)
Oh , Lord.. Kum ba ya
Someone's prayin Lord...
Kum ba ya...
(3x)
Oh, Lord.. Kumbaya...
Someone's singin Lord ...
Kum ba ya...
(3x)
oh, Lord ... Kumbaya... Kumbaya...
Kumbaya , my Lord
GMommy: You hit the nail on the head. SG should have been a man and talked to the Dad himself. Isn't that called leadership???
concernedSBCer said...
I want it duly noted that the post from 9:27 hacked me off! What a bunch of NONSENSE!
Who are those people?????
1:56 PM, December 02, 2007
Those people are what I call moonbats :)
gmommy said...
"...then SG should have been the adult and the man and the pastor and gone to the dad himself."
....And since WHEN has SG ever done anything "man to man". TEN GODLY MEN tried to meet with him, and he has been "challenged" according to Matthew 18, and what does he do??? He hides behind DC and others who are willing to sacrifice their own reputations.... SG is NOT a man's man, no matter how much leather he puts in his office.
The music....what's appropriate?
I think that ALL those folks who are now attempting to update their music are almost 2 decades past the time when this could have mattered.
I am all for an attempt at a blend of traditional and contemporary. But a blend which shows good musicianship and good musical taste. I think JW was at least on the right track.
The 'giddity-up-and-go' attempt is garage band level stuff that won't sell to a wide audience. Drummer too loud - get it?
I think the Crystal Cathedral (Schuller's deal) has excellent music and it is a blend. I would give it a 10! (Please, I promise this isn't an endorsement of the theology of the minister.)
Since the supposed attempt is to 'reach' the younger generation, 2nd and 3rd rate musicians don't make the grade. You gotta have Jon Bon Jovi's caliber at least! LOL
My 2 cents worth. And it is worth a lot more than that!
Churchmouse,
The sermon I heard today was from Matt.13...what soil does the seed grow in....fertile or rocky/ shallow or deep...??
the recent Willow Creek survey was mentioned.
.the church has gone from Doctrine to marketing
.from truth to counceling
.from character of God to "felt needs"
.sin and santification have been removed
The seeker friendly churches aren't producing disciples but meeting felt needs.....when Truth costs us something , those with shallow soil desert the Truth......
we are to be captives of the Truth...no matter the culture...we are to wrestle with the commands of God...
and speaking of songs...
"Give me that Old time Religion...it's good enough for me"!!!!
gimommo (heh heh) wrote:
"If SG thought it was so wrong for the dad to have beer
(IF this little story in fact happened at all)
then SG should have been the adult and the man and the pastor and gone to the dad himself.
An adult should NEVER put that burden on a child.
Would SG be smirking IF the dad had beat the child????"
All those questions crossed my mind:
1. He said he knew the man. Why didn't he approach him himself?
2. What if the father had beat the child?
3. What are the odds that this story even happened?
I listened to it again, and here is the revised transcription:
"I remember one time... heh heh... I was in Gardendale and a little boy came home and said, 'Brother Steve, my daddy has beer in the... beer in the... in the uh... refrigerator.' And I knew the daddy. I said, 'You go pour it out. If he has a problem with it... you say... tell him here's my number. Call Brother Steve.' Should I have done that? Probably not. But I tell ya what. {pause for effect} I'm glad I did. Heh heh heh. {applause} Don't send me a letter on that one either. I don't want to know about it."
"... a little boy came home... ? That doesn't even make sense.
Would Brother Steve have been bragging and chuckling about it had the man hurt the child? And BTW, if the child had done such a thing he would have deserved to be punished. (Note: I didn't say beat or physically harmed, but it wasn't the child's place to police his father.)
The title of the sermon was "Jesus Loves Little Children," and the focus was on abortion. I agree that abortion is an abomination that should be addressed... although I'm not sure what the beer story had to do with anything.
According to the sermon notes, among other things, "we must protect our children physically. That's when I changed the channel, threw the remote across the room, and ran screaming from the room. (Okay, I exaggerate, but I did change the channel and yelled at the TV.) I don't guess Steve Gaines believes that "physical protection" includes not allowing a confessed pedophile to freely roam the halls of the church for six months. Silly me.
mom4.
...no matter how much leather he puts in his office.....
good point...
he has dealt with NO issues like a mature man...or leader
"You gotta have Jon Bon Jovi's caliber at least! LOL"
You set the bar that low, do you?
Integrity: A real man walks in integrity. The American Heritage Dictionary defines integrity as: 1) Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code; 2) The state of being unimpaired; soundness; 3) The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness. Proverbs 10:9 (NIV) states, "The man of integrity walks securely, but he who takes crooked paths will be found out." A man of integrity is a man who can be trusted and his word is his bond. He demonstrates good character even when no one is looking. His actions and his speech demonstrate that he is a person of integrity. Real Christian men, know that they will never reach perfection in this earthly realm, but it should be the goal of every man to strive to walk in integrity everyday, regardless of the situation or circumstance.
Ultimately, a real man is a man who is Christ-like. A real man always exhibits self-control when confronted with temptation, is strong and courageous when dealing with those who oppose him, and walks in integrity at all times. The goal of every Christian man should be to act more like Jesus instead of imitating the false ideals of manhood presented by the world. The more a man submits his life to Christ, the more he will think and act like a real man!
i.e. this does not describe SG. An egotistical bully is not usually considered in the defining of a "real man", leather or no leather.
If you haven't checked out the FBCJax blog lately, things are heating up over there. Seems Mac Brunson clandestinely ramrodded through some changes to their church bylaws giving himself much more power and setting up a church disciplinary committee to which HE appoints the members.
"Watchdog" asked some questions, including this one:
"What does this say to the incredible music minister Jim Whitmire? Jim Whitmire knows full well what a preacher who runs roughshod over the congregation with his own agenda can do - he has watched Steve Gaines single handedly destroy the church he and Adrian Rogers labored in for so many years. Jim when Mac asked you to come serve here in Jax and you stood in our church and compared him to Adrian Rogers, what do you think now? When you came did you think Mac was different than Steve Gaines? Did you ever imagine Mac would do such a low-ball act to such a loving and trusting congregation like us? Will Jim Whitmire stand with Mac Brunson now? Is he going to taint his reputation by sticking with Mac?"
I'd like to hear the answer to that one, too.
What is reported on the FBC Jax blog makes me so sick and so sad. Let us all pray for JW - he is such a precious man. I can't stand the thought of him being hurt again. But we all know JW is a real Christian man.
Integrity?
There ain't no such animal in real life!!!
Regrettably money talks. Even in the organized church.
Anyone ever hear of 'situational ethics?'
Pervasive in our culture, even church.
Not judging anyone. We all face issues of integrity every day. Power and greed have possessed the soul of many a good person.
Ah, for redemption!
Too many good comments...
eprov,
Not familiar with the sound of Bon Jovi(embarrassed that I am not up on anyone current except maybe Josh Groban)
but agree strongly with your comments!
Lily,
Excellent...the culture today is so confused on what "manliness" really is!!!
(and I have a little tidbit to share with you about after church activities) :)
...Freaked out about JW being in the middle of the FBCJX chaos!! What WILL he do????
and WHY would he compare Mac to Bro. R?????
Wonder if after God received Poppy Joy...did He hand her to her great grand dad??? In my little brain, (as if I have any idea how heaven operates)that is a comforting thought.
Gimommo - I was there in the service when JW was introduced to our congregation. I believe it was a month before JW actually started, but he was in town and Donald Brunson brought him up to say a few words. And yes, without a doubt, he did say that he had sat under Adrian Rogers for years and Mac Brunson is "another" Adrian Rogers. Poor JW didn't know what he was saying. Donald Brunson is so far away from an Adrian Rogers its not even funny to joke about.
But I do feel for JW. I hope he doesn't choose to taint his reputation by sticking around Mac much longer. Donald's move this past Wednesday night, fooling the congregation into changing their bylaws with absolutely NO explanation, was beyond the pale. I hope that as many of the members of our church find out what happened they will see Donald Brunson for the man he is.
watchdog wrote:
"I hope that as many of the members of our church find out what happened they will see Donald Brunson for the man he is."
If Bellevue's situation is any indication, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.
Another Tidbit...
While decorating for Christmas, I ran across Steve Gaines' book - the first one that he sells to the men's group - (don't want to mention the name of it). Seeing as how I have been accused of being "against" dear ole bro stevie from the beginning, and having PURCHASED and READ his book from cover to cover before he was ever on the scene (MD promoted his book for him) in order to get a glimpse of my pastor's heart, but no longer wishing to encumber my home with the likes of his "likeness", I proceeded to put the book in my "Goodwill" box.
Having found this book in the Goodwill box as he was loading it in the car, my dear husband immediately retrieved it and brought it to me. He wanted to know why I was giving it to Goodwill? I was shocked, I asked him WHY on earth would he want to keep it??? He responded, "Who said I wanted to keep it? I just don't want to be responsible for darkening any one elses mind with it".
(NASS won't let me tell you what we did with the book:))
fbc watchdog,
I'm with Nass...seems like so many good people are so "busy with church" they are oblivious to what is going on.
They have had the "slow boil" for so long... they feel unspiritual if they question the leadership....AND that's the way people like SG and Mac want to keep it.
sad
mom4,
Sounds like yor husband is wise.
Just for the record...the U is gone from my laptop...I have to press it several times to get a U.
gimommo,
Just for the record, I didn't get it...at first glance....
Too many kids running around to pay attention I guess!
gimommo said...
fbc watchdog,
I'm with Nass...seems like so many good people are so "busy with church" they are oblivious to what is going on.
They have had the "slow boil" for so long... they feel unspiritual if they question the leadership....AND that's the way people like SG and Mac want to keep it.
sad
5:59 PM, December 02, 2007
sotl:
I ran into an old BBC friend ( who still attends there) the other day while I was out Christmas shopping, and I was stunned and amazed to learn that she was under the impression that the Rogers family was STILL at BBC and that they fully supported SG.
I had a difficult time convincing her that they are at Faith and that Mrs. R. sings in the choir there.
She told me that she wanted " the scoop" ...and then I asked her if she was aware of the PW situation. She said that she was...Well, you know what? If that wasn't enough, nothing else that I could say to her would be enough. So there is no " scoop"...I will not engage in tit for tat....If she is STILL there and is unaware that the Rogers have long since left the building, and if the PW thing did not offend her..well, I doubt she really wants to know anything..
I"m tired of it.
SOTL,
I am at the same place.
As long as the people there don't attack me like the lady did at the place of business a while back....no need to convince anyone of anything.
If the PW issue isn't enough...nothing is.
Someone I spoke to recently
(she asked ME why I was no longer there)
had rationalized that the "only reason she could figure that it took so long to come to light" was that the victim's wife was pushing him to come forward.....sigh...
I nicely said that he wanted PW to step down from the ministry...
then she said that SG was getting the wrong council at the time but he got rid of that council......
I'm tired too.....
going to bed early tonight...nighty!!!
Hey Folks....When we first got wind of JW going to Jacksonville, many of us wondered why he made that choice because things were beginning to stir at the church at that time. I hope Jim didn't jump out of the frying pan into the fire. He doesn't deserve this many problems at this stage in his life.
God Bless one and all of you
Amazed - JW more than likely was trying to help a friend. JW had served as interim with Mac at Dallas, and Mac was under a lot of heat at Jax this past summer with Rodney Brooks leaving for Atlanta.
But I am not sure how much longer a man with JW's integrity, and that doesn't need the job financially to pay his bills, will stay on board. But JW is probably a faithful friend, and it wouldn't surprise that he sticks with Mac through the turmoil.
hecanhear,
Any special significance for the blessing???
Does it have anything to do with the cuurrent topic or concern for JW????
Or just a random passing thru hello????
just wondering......
FBCJax,
So so sorry yall have to go thru all this. It has taken a lONG time to work thru the shock of people being able to hijack our church with no regard for long standing members...but we are seeing light at the end of the tunnel...partly because we have been a support for each other.
SG actually referred to our meeting together for fellowship as "clandestine meetings" :)
Guess those not following the new plans for the "church" are suppose to just quietly disappear...
stay strong....we will support you!!!!
I have learned many things thru out this entire ordeal, but I have learned one particular thing, and it is this:
Do not ever try to convince anyone of the truth. People CHOOSE to belive what they WANT to believe based on their own agendas. They will climb over a mountain of facts and common sense because they do not want to see it. They have their own agendas and nothing you can say to them is ever going to change it.
Not saying that their agenda is bad, but for whatever their own agenda is, they are going to stick with it until THEY decide to change their agenda. You can't change it for them.
It depends on what the person has experienced in their own life as to how they see the situation.
There is no point in arguing about it.
People who are open to the truth will see the truth. The truth has a power all its own for those who want to see it.
I"m not mad or angry at those who have chosen to stay at BBC. They have their reasons. I do not agree with them. I don't need to agree with them. They will never see things my way becuase they have not lived thru what I have lived thru.
I have to keep my focus on the one that matters the most: and that is Jesus.
Right beside you, girlfriend!
Note the prizes here.
SOTL wrote:
"I ran into an old BBC friend ( who still attends there) the other day while I was out Christmas shopping, and I was stunned and amazed to learn that she was under the impression that the Rogers family was STILL at BBC and that they fully supported SG."
I wonder if SG will extend a warm welcome to the Rogers family's empty seats at the SCT again this year. Surely he won't pull that one again.
SOTL wrote:
"Do not ever try to convince anyone of the truth. People CHOOSE to belive what they WANT to believe based on their own agendas. They will climb over a mountain of facts and common sense because they do not want to see it. They have their own agendas and nothing you can say to them is ever going to change it."
Amen. I gave up on trying to do that a long, long time ago. My only goal is to present information. What people choose to do with it -- to believe it or reject it -- is strictly up to them. It's not something I've lost any sleep over.
The Gospel according to Oprah
A Faithful Baptist Preacher addresses the reigning high priestess of The New Age Movement in this incredibly astute and powerful sermon you won't want to miss.
THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO OPRAH
Special prayer request to all you Warriors from Lily Pad.
This time last year I was in Houston with my beautiful sister-in-law. Tomorrow is the one year anniversary of her death. Please pray for my brother, he has not taken phone calls for over a week -his way of dealing. Please pray that he can get to the point where he can say "It is well with my soul". Thank you.
Praying Lily Pad.... so sorry.
Lily: I am praying for your brother. I am so sorry for your loss.
:-(
watchman...
This is a great sermon! Could you give me the URL? I'd like to download it and send it to others.
I have no idea how to link to WMP...how in the world do you do this???
Ima
Ima Northwest Baptist Ministries nwbm.org
Once there
go to pastors messages...
right click on blue link entitled: The Gospel according to Oprah ..and select " copy shortcut", ...then, when sending an e mail, ... in the body of the letter hit the " pste " button ..and it will paste into into your letter and will show up as a link
Thanks Watchman...got it
If "outsiders" can see the obvious, why can't people on the inside see it? And if they do, why don't they care?
Watchman...
I have listened to James Summers three times...this is frightening in that Oprah Winfrey has such a following. This pastor is new to me...he has got it. How blessed I feel to find another who preaches Truth.
Ima
Nass,
My answer to your qestion...
Because it would COST them something.
Easier to let those who have already suffered take the hits and carry the burden for others.
Wouldn't want to break the flow for the people whose lives are comfortable.
Ima..
Thanks for Blessin me ..by tellin me how much you were blessed.
Yes.. he's got it.
watchman....
add 10 more blessings to you!
I have listened to the previous links you posted with him speaking. Excellent in my book.
A THOUGHT:
Something has been on my mind the past couple of days.
We have no control over the actions of other people. Neither are we responsible for what they do. However; we are responsible for how we react to the deeds of others. We have control over(hopefully) those reactions.
What does that have to do with Oprah and her new Christ? Nothing and everything. Were we warned that there would be false Christs? Yes. Oprah's words validate God's Word. The last pieces are falling into place.
The world wants a righteousness it can define and control without submitting to the True Righteousness.
So what are we to do? You know the answer to that as well as I. Matthew 25 comes to mind, where verse 4 tells us, "But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps." and verse 13 also: "Watch, therefore; for ye know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of man commeth."
Just thinkin'.
Churchmouse: You are so right!
Hellllooooooooo
Where is everyone???
Are you shopping? Or practicing your bowling form?
I'm here CSBCer!
concernedSBCer said...
Churchmouse: You are so right!
Hellllooooooooo
Where is everyone???
Are you shopping? Or practicing your bowling form?
7:11 PM, December 06, 2007
I'm icing my shoulder from bowling practice lol.
Not to mention trying to calm myself down after being sent to a level of ticked off I have never been to before after the league secretary went against my wishes and had my 300 Ring sent to HER instead of to me directly. I'll explain it at the next bowling party :).
Me too.
I'm a bowler.
On waxed wood I slide.
I'm taunted,
By the pins that survive.
I know, I know. Not exactly Jon Bon Jovi. But I bet you liked it Lynn!
concerned said:
Where is everyone???
reply: down here under the fridge, where its warm
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