Thursday, July 12, 2007

It's the "spirit" of the thing...

This is a continuation of the previous thread.

On Sunday, November 5, 2006, there was a marathon BBC deacons' meeting that started in the afternoon, recessed for the evening service (which was followed by the second "information meeting" where we were told how the deacons had "reviewed" the credit card receipts and determined that the pastor had done nothing wrong), then resumed after the service and didn't end until around 11:00 p.m.

Here is a clarification of what transpired during this meeting and afterwards which resulted in the deacon loyalty oath:

1. Near the end of the approximately 6-hour meeting, an idea (not a formal motion) was proposed which referenced supporting the pastor. This was thought by many deacons to simply mean "support" as in prayer, service to the body, etc., not blindly "swallowing and following" the pastor no matter what and certainly not agreeing to signing a statement that, to many members, had all the appearance of pledging an oath to a man. In any case, it was this idea regarding support of the pastor which was passed unanimously (meaning there were no dissenting votes) by those who remained in the meeting. As one deacon put it, after spending nearly six hours in that emotionally-charged, grueling, frustrating, heart-wrenching meeting, he would have agreed to almost anything just so the meeting could be adjourned.

2. A few days later the deacon body received an e-mail containing the "loyalty oath" as reprinted in the previous topic heading. For many deacons, this motion hardly resembled the simple "support" motion voted on in the meeting, and all the deacons were being required to sign it. Yet no one could remember that motion being read word for word at the meeting. However, deacon chairman Chuck Taylor stated in his e-mail that all who were present unanimously approved this motion.

3. It was later learned from some of the deacon officers that the final wording of the motion was drafted after the meeting. Apparently, the deacons' meeting was taped and the opinions and viewpoints expressed by certain deacons that evening were used as a basis for the final wording of the motion. Those supporting the motion claimed this represented the "spirit" of the original motion that was voted on in the meeting. This is where a number of deacons disagreed, and they did not sign the oath. In fact, only about 80 of the 180-plus deacons signed it. Many serious concerns had been expressed during the meeting, and it was felt these were completely ignored by those who drafted this new motion.

4. Finally, Chuck Taylor announced that the deacon officers had decided not to bring the motion to the congregation that following Sunday but to postpone it until a later time. By the way, Mr. Taylor, it's been over 8 months now, and we're still waiting....

Questions to ask:

1. Why was the wording of the motion finalized after the meeting and then claimed in an e-mail sent to the deacons that it was unanimously approved at the earlier meeting of the deacon body? Should not this finalized version of the motion have been brought back to the deacon body for discussion and a proper vote?

2. Was the objective to try and intimidate the deacons who had serious concerns about various issues into signing a document that was considered by many to be a clear violation of Scripture?

3. What authority did the officers have to postpone a motion they claimed had been voted on unanimously by all the deacons (we know it wasn't)? What's the point of voting on motions at deacons' meetings if the officers can rewrite or postpone them later?

4. What was the real reason the officers decided to postpone the motion? Was it because of the positive feedback taking place between the Communications Committee and various groups and individuals in the church as they claimed, or was there another reason?

5. Who all was involved in drafting the loyalty oath?

Concerned members are encouraged to contact deacons who remained until the end of this meeting to see if their version of these events matches those here.

784 comments:

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Lin said...

"It is interesting though that those deletions do not have my name on them as who posted them originally. I believe I know how you know."

Jon, check the link. Your name is as plain as day on all the deleted posts. Paranoia will destroy ya.

Glad to hear you won't be deleting your comments here.... on this blog.

concernedSBCer said...

Miss Billie: Please don't bother asking for the key. It's okay, really. There are so many important things to pray for....children who are being molested, or who have been molested; 15 year old girls who have been traumatized in their own churches; church leaders who trespass and then don't apologize or make light of it; honest sheep sitting under dishonest leadership; baby Christians being led astray by false teachers; church administrators who don't follow the law regarding providing membership lists and financial records.....see.....there is so much important praying that needs to be done and I just hate to have you waste your precious time on inconsequential things....let's keep the main thing, the main thing, shall we?

Jon L. Estes said...

Gosh Lin,

The only blog I am aware of that I posted and deleted does not show my name as deleting anything. Can you direct me to the proper blog. I'd like to see what you speak of. If it the one I am checking out, could it be that the owner, and not others can see who deleted?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon,

Scroll up and read -- 4:41 p.m. and 4:44 p.m.

concernedSBCer said...

Jon: Uh, no. I can see it as plain as day. Look at the link in Nass's 4:44 post.

Details.....

imaresistor said...

jon said, "You are mistaken, I have not deleted any of the posts I submitted. On this thread or any of the others."

jon...what did you say? This simply is not true. Why in the world would you deny something that is so blatantly obvious?

You really have disrupted this blog. Why don't you give it up. You are not helping things in any way. I feel some of your membership would appreciate some of your time. They pay you for your time...we don't. You are responsible to them...not to any of us. Why don't you just give it up.

Lin said...

"If it the one I am checking out, could it be that the owner, and not others can see who deleted? "

It is probably not showing up on your computer because you deleted them.

oc said...

My word verification: cypent.

Is that cyber repentence?

Just askin'.

oc.

New BBC Open Forum said...

oc,

I think that was one of Mr. Deacon's screen names -- "hiscypent."

larry said...

Hi piglet.

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the Family Life conferences, so I can't compare it to the Faith Walk.

There's actually no walking involved, and it shouldn't be confused with any of the New Age rituals like labyrinths or prayer stations. The Emmaus walk got its name from the disciples walking on the road to Emmaus when Jesus met with them, and when the Baptists decided to create a similar weekend with a discipleship focus they kept 'walk' in the name.

Lily said...

Greetings,
I am behind on my reading here. Just wanted to jump in and say two things:

1. Miss Billie does provide comic relief. I have a visual with each of her posts. (P.S. to Miss Billie - see you in your class soon - I have great eye expressions)

2. Jon Estes makes me want to run with scissors. I get no visual with his posts, I get something akin to another word that starts with a "v".

Keep up the good work Truth Warriors.

gmommy said...

Everyone needs to read the links provided by Nass and Ezekiel around 4:40
and then never respond to Jon again.

Jon, you are a disgrace.
I don't know whether you are evil or mentally ill and don't care.

Either way, you are a disgrace.
No wonder you defend SG and other FALSE TEACHERS.

Go to Bratton's or Watchinghistory's blog....MAYBE you can fool them....for a little while anyway.

Thanks for showing us exactly what a false teacher looks and sounds like.....your arrogance is right up there with gaines....
go kiss the mirror and get your fix.

In Texas, people like you make nice fish bait.

oc said...

I said:

My word verification: cypent.

Is that cyber repentence?

Just askin'.

oc.


Reply to myself:

Is this new age or PDC or something else?:

"Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of cyberspace, saying, 'Cypent,for the kingdom of heaven is at hand".

NIV (New Internet Version.)


oc.

solomon said...

Larry,

Could you email me please?

Thanks,
Keith Solomon

socwork said...

I was just doing a little brainstorming(hold the sarcasm, smart alecs), and I penned down a possible compilation of my presidential deacon staff.

OC- head of security
AOG, Eke.- bible stuff and whatnot
SOTL- public relations
Nass- valet parking
Gmom- catering
Socwork- social work
Junk- puns and jokey phone messages
Lin- death threat laison
concerned- watercooler talk coordinator
mom4- leisure suit picker outer
cakes- long word letter writer


Dr. Loney, I would be honored to take the social work position on your presidential deacon staff.

Socwork

socwork said...

but I do think there is a big difference in receiving Jesus at the very end of your life, and receiving Him early, ignoring Him throughout your life, and then dying. Oh, you are no less saved, but you certainly will not be rewarded as we all strive to be. I want to be His servant, and impact others for Him....not accept Him then never honor Him.

I have very serious doubts that a person who ignores Jesus or does not honor Him or whatever, is truly born again. Anyone can say they are a Christian - many do say so and they are no more Christian than the Pope is Muslim. JMO

Mary said...

Larry,

I would appreciate an email also if you have info regarding the Faith Walk sponsored by Faith Baptist.

My email addy is in my profile.

Thanks!
Mary

concernedSBCer said...

Socwork: I believe there was a blog discussion quite a long time ago where the focus was "Once saved, always saved" actually should be "If saved, always saved."

I, too, can't understand how a Christian can ignore the Holy Spirit but I guess I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt....

:)

Mary said...

Folks, this is just to let y'all know that family business kept me from doing my Berean work on the Faith Walk today.

I'm going to scroll up and read today's posts.

Mary

Junkster said...

Dr. Bill Loney said...
Junk- puns and jokey phone messages

Interesting ... perhaps Batman knows that Clark Kent is Superman, but Superman has no idea that Bruce Wayne is Batman!

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
socwork said...

Socwork: I believe there was a blog discussion quite a long time ago where the focus was "Once saved, always saved" actually should be "If saved, always saved."

I, too, can't understand how a Christian can ignore the Holy Spirit but I guess I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt....


Yes, I do believe that once a person is saved, they are eternally secure... I think "once saved, always saved" gets a bad rap for the people who say they are saved, but then live like the devil.

:)

Junkster said...

oc said...
My word verification: cypent.

Is that cyber repentence?


Whatever it means, some would say it's not necessary for cyvation, all you need it to cylieve.

Junkster said...

A certain banned (but either unable to understand the concept or too selfish and inconsiderate and unChristlike to care) poster said ...
Also on Faith Walk ...

Well, folks, there ya have it ... if our banned-but-shows-no-respect friend knows that much about it, either he/she or someone close to him/her has been through it. So watch and see if he/she posts more and thinks it is good or bad, and that will tell you a lot about it. He/she is notorius for lacking discernment as to what is good and what is bad.

oc said...

Junk said:

oc said...
My word verification: cypent.

Is that cyber repentence?

Whatever it means, some would say it's not necessary for cyvation, all you need it to cylieve.

oc says:
Which would probably ignore the subject of 'cynctification'.

Just sayin'.
oc. :)

imaresistor said...

So...I went to the website of Faith Baptist. I kept reading this and that; decided to take a look for myself. How I would love to say that no red flags went up...but I can't. Taking the 'tour' on the journey of faith walk (or something like that) was quite interesting. What I see all over the place is contemplative prayer/spirituality. I would be interested in knowing if FBC has studied Henry Blackaby's Experiencing God...in small groups, or whatever. Have they done the 40 days of purpose? I would be interested in knowing who wrote the itinerary for the walk, station-whatever you call it. Was it taken from a book, what? I am talking about the actual wording of it...did the pastor write it? What?

I know from being here on this blog for some time now that most of you know about contemplative prayer...contemplative spirituality. However, I have to say that if there are those of you who don't understand contemplative, please do a deep study...this is so you will know it when you see it. A very, deep study.

Junkster said...

imaresistor said...
jon said, "You are mistaken, I have not deleted any of the posts I submitted. On this thread or any of the others."

jon...what did you say? This simply is not true. Why in the world would you deny something that is so blatantly obvious?


and oc said...
Dude, give it up. Your cover is blown. If this isn't enough to show your character, well, I don't know what does. So why don't you mitigate your shame? Tuck your tail between you legs and find another hydrant.

Sorry, ima, and oc, but I'm not following this. Not that I want to be some sort of apologist for Jon, but I don't get what he's said or done (in regards to his remarks about deleting posts) that is dishonest. He said he has deleted posts on another blog, but not on any of the threads on this one.

I personally wouldn't care if he deleted all of them from this blog, but I don't understand why him saying he has deleted them elsewhere but not here is a problem ... unless you know of things he's posted here and then deleted. Do you? Hep me out here!

New BBC Open Forum said...

So as not to leave his comment out of context, this is the post to which "junk" referred:

"Also on Faith Walk, they request no phones and not to contact anyone including your mate or loved ones. If Steve Gaines did that, it would be on the national news."

Not even one short phone call a day to your mate does seem to be going a bit overboard, but that's JMO and it's no skin off my nose one way or the other. I would think it's probably good not to be interrupted and distracted by phone calls.

That is, if the participants are locked in and stay overnight at the church. Do they?

imaresistor said...

junkster...

He deleted the posts he had posted on the other blogsite. Not this site. If I am mistaken, please show me where I am...I will certainly apologize to anybody I have offended.

Did you look at the other site in question?

imaresistor said...

"If Steve Gaines did that, it would be on the national news."

Question: Has Steve Gaines been on the national news for any of these things occurring at BBC? Like for instance the PW scandal? For the multitude that has left? Has any of this type thing been on the national news?

Besides, this type thing has become so prevalent that it is no longer newsworthy don't you think?

concernedSBCer said...

Socwork: I agree on your 8:48 post.
:)

gmommy said...

Junk,
I know your post wasn't to me but I want to stick my nose in anyway...
after reading the link provided (on our blog around 4:40)
It didn't matter that what jon wrote had been deleted......(not your point but what made me ill)

It was clear from all the responses to jon's deleted posts that he is a pitiful excuse for a Christian much less a pastor...

is he really employed?????...

it is just repulsive that he gets his jollies from going on all these blogs and lording over people with his baby food philosophy.....NOT theology....and his ARROGANCE....
the man must be kissing his own hand if he is not on another blog.

The other pastors were saying the same things to him we have wasted our time on....he doesn't care.
Some people have to have the attention.....good or bad.....

I have a friend whose mom caused great damage to her children but the rush of the attention and stirring everyone up was a drug to her.....what's the difference???
He is causing spiritual damage and creates chaos.

How dare him come here and deflect and cause people to stumble while accusing everyone of what he is doing...
I honestly have more compassion for BT or WH any day....

OK....deep breath........time for a break.

Lynn said...

gmommy said

is he really employed?????...


Lynn's Response:

Obviously Jon isn't. How else does he have so much time during the week to watch and post all the time. given some of his answers, I don't even think he is a pastor.



BTW, on a more serious note: Please keep my nephew-in-law and his family in your prayers. His father was killed Tuesday afternoon in a vehicle accident.

Junkster said...

imaresistor said...
junkster...

He deleted the posts he had posted on the other blogsite. Not this site. If I am mistaken, please show me where I am...I will certainly apologize to anybody I have offended.

Did you look at the other site in question?


Yes, I looked at it, just enough to see that he deleted posts there. But he said here that he said he deleted posts there, and he said also that he hadn't deleted any here. Sorry if I'm being slow, but I'm still not getting what he said that wasn't true.

gmommy said...
It was clear from all the responses to jon's deleted posts that he is a pitiful excuse for a Christian much less a pastor...

I don't get this either. Are you referring to responses on the other blog to the posts he deleted there? I don't see how responses people made on another blog to posts we've never seen can tell us much about Jon's character ... I sure wouldn't want people basing their opinion of my charater on what others said about what I said!

Again, not trying to defend anything Jon may have done wrong, I just can't see what it is from this discussion.



Word verification: mswiz. As in, "That lady blog administrator sure is a mswiz."

imaresistor said...

You are making me dizzy junkster. This conversation seems to be going in circles with no end in sight. If you would copy and paste the comments jon made which cause you to question mine and other's posts in relation to it, I would be more than happy to take another look at the situation. For now, I stand on what I said. And...I really don't want to spend more time on it.

gmommy said...

junk,
I'll just say you are nicer than I am.
the gut feeling I got from hearing those ministers....one was the owner of the Baptist blog jon was banned from....
(Nass,correct my details if needed please......)
if you can't tell about his character and thinking and focus from this blog and from the others....
stay right where you are....I used to live there too!
I liked it a lot better than the evil I had to come face to face with.

Your my friend,junk....no cut to you at all....

It also doesn't change my opinion of the repulsive person I saw jon to be in the beginning or now.
the sign still says....
Beware of SNAKES!!!!!

Junkster said...

Rowdy Lynn said...
gmommy said
is he really employed?????...

Lynn's Response:

Obviously Jon isn't. How else does he have so much time during the week to watch and post all the time. given some of his answers, I don't even think he is a pastor.


Not hard to find out. He says he's pastor at Jackson Park Baptist Church, Kannapolis, NC. The number for that church is 704-932-5015. Let us know what you find out.

Ya know, Jon isn't necessarily neglecting his congregation by blogging. Could be that the members of his church would say that they have need of nothing. (See Rev. 3:17)

Junkster said...

imaresistor said...
You are making me dizzy junkster. This conversation seems to be going in circles with no end in sight. If you would copy and paste the comments jon made which cause you to question mine and other's posts in relation to it, I would be more than happy to take another look at the situation. For now, I stand on what I said. And...I really don't want to spend more time on it.

Sorry, I had no intent to confuse or to argue. Simply put, you said that Jon said something that was not true, and I didn't get it, so asked what it was he said that wasn't true. But you don't want to take the time to point me to what he said that wasn't true, so I'll drop it.

Piglet said...

Imaresistor

Did you get my email?

Larry

Thanks for your response.

sickofthelies said...

Hey guys,

Let's not get sucked into " billie gate" or " jon gate"
.

Just amuse yourselves with their ridiculous posts and move on.

New BBC Open Forum said...

SOTL,

That's the best advice I've heard all week. Thank you!

imaresistor said...

Junkster…okay, here it is. This should clarify the sequence of events causing the confusion. Apparently, the time frame of posting lapsed. I was posting on what was available at the time. No harm done.

(jon posted to lin)
You are mistaken, I have not deleted any of the posts I submitted. On this thread or any of the others.
3:48 PM, July 19, 2007


Jon L. Estes said...
Lin…I reread your post and you are correct I did delete my posts from another blog, but not this one.
4:32 PM, July 19, 2007

imaresistor said...

piglet...

Today?

imaresistor said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Junkster said...

gmommy said...
junk,
I'll just say you are nicer than I am.


Possibly I am just not as informed. I didn't read the posts on the other blog.

the gut feeling I got from hearing those ministers....one was the owner of the Baptist blog jon was banned from....
(Nass,correct my details if needed please......)


Although I didn't read the posts on the blog where Jon deleted his posts, I do know that the blog and its administrator are not friendly to those who love and believe the Bible as God's inerrant Word. The same is true of the administrator and regulars of the forum Jon was banned from. I can't say I agree with Jon or that I like much of what he has posted here, but for me, as one who believes the Bible, I would not be bothered by being banned from or criticised at those sites. I'd probably think I was doing something right if I was being bad-mouthed by people who don't believe God's Word.

if you can't tell about his character and thinking and focus from this blog and from the others....

Did I say that? I think he's shown a lot about himself here. I also think the fact that I have said I won't attempt to engage him shows what I think of his posts. Again, all I said was I don't see where he has lied or shown anything about his character in the specific matter of his saying he has deleted from another blog but not from this one. It looked to me like people were saying that he lied about that particular matter ... so I asked if people are talking about something else he's said or done. (I am never surprised when I am confused, it doesn't take much.)

stay right where you are....I used to live there too!

You said that is that no cut to me, but how is that not a cut? Sounds a lot like you're saying "Bless your unenlightened little heart."

Your friend,
"Junk"

Junkster said...

sickofthelies said...
Let's not get sucked into " billie gate" or " jon gate"
Just amuse yourselves with their ridiculous posts and move on.


Heaven forbid I should get confused and ask for a clarification! Better I should just shut up and smile. People would probably think I'm a lot smarter than I am!

all2jesus said...

Ok, let's clear up the confusion about Jon's truthfulness.

Lin said:
... There are two threads full of your comments for them to get the picture...that is...IF you don't delete your comments as you have done on another blog.

1:24 PM, July 19, 2007

_________________
Jon said:
You are mistaken, I have not deleted any of the posts I submitted. On this thread or any of the others.
3:48 PM, July 19, 2007

_________________
Jon said:
Lin,

I reread your post and you are correct I did delete my posts from another blog, but not this one.

It is interesting though that those deletions do not have my name on them as who posted them originally. I believe I know how you know.

;-)

4:32 PM, July 19, 2007

_________________

Jon implies that Lin has privileged info, insinuating that she is perhaps the owner of the disputed blog. NASS and Ezekiel kindly provide a link; there are posts aplenty by Jon all saying "Deleted by the Author."

Lin is right that Jon has deleted posts from another blog, but Jon has not lied about that. The blog in question is not a thread of the NBBCOF blog; it's not even hosted on blogger.com. He readily admits deleting his posts there, but for some strange reason he can't see own name on them like everyone else can. Sorry folks; Jon's innocent in this case.

Piglet said...

Ima

I sent you mail on the 17th, but not to your Ima account - to your other one.

concernedSBCer said...

Junk: You've got mail.

Lin said...

And jon estes also said:
"It is interesting though that those deletions do not have my name on them as who posted them originally. I believe I know how you know."

Lin said:
Jon, check the link. Your name is as plain as day on all the deleted posts. Paranoia will destroy ya."

Junk, Here is the exchange after the link was posted.

I do not know the blog owner or care about the content. I was just curious if Jon would engage in a lengthy debate here and then delete comments.

Jon could probably not see that his name was on all the comments like we could. And he was wondering how we knew they were his.

I do not agree with the other blogs either but I have to wonder where all of Jon's 'Grace' went when it came to his 'throwing spears' on the other blogs?

Piglet said...

all2jesus

Kudos to you for clearing this up.

I could see it but was just too lazy to spell it out like you did.

I haven't engaged Jon because of the reasons many have mentioned here, but I wouldn't question him based on the blog that was linked and their responses to him - they are full of double-talk and liberal spin - I wouldn't let that Bruce fellow into my church if I were Jon either.

concernedSBCer said...

All2Jesus: I was online during the start-up of the whole thing. Jon mis-spoke, then accused Lin of being the other blog administrator, etc...ad nauseum. He was not graceful, charming, or witty at all. It truly was a big confusing misunderstanding, but he could have been nicer since he was the one that kept arguing.

IM(very)HO, of course!

Regardless, I hope all my special truthseeker blog friends sleep very well tonight!

Sincerely,
Your watercooler talk coordinator

(Goodnight Dr. Loney, wherever you and your blue leisure suit might be!)

Piglet said...

Sleep tight, concernedsbcer. =)

imaresistor said...

Piglet...oh yes, I got that one. I emailed you back. You didn't get it?

I'll post you again tomorrow on that.

Piglet said...

Sorry, Ima. No response.

Can you send it again? :/

Delivered By Grace said...

Jon stated:

Delivered by grace,

Thank you for your comments and stand. It seems some want to exaggerate your words to make their point... to make it look like you support living in sin.

Keep up the good work.

Response:

Jon

My words have been misstated, not only that I support living in sin, but also that my belief is 'me' based. After work today I reviewed everything I have written and I have no clue as to how some have interpreted these writings. I have never supported living in sin. I have never disputed that Jesus is Lord. I have never questioned the importance of bearing good fruit or striving to live as Christ lived. I still maintain that these are INDEPENDENT of salvation.

I do fervently believe that salvation is impossible without conviction of the individual by the Holy Spirit. If you reread my posts you will see where I have previously stated this.

I find it hard to believe that someone could be convicted of their apartness from God by the Holy Spirit, accept Jesus Christ as their saviour and then continue to live in sin as they had previously. I would go so far as to say that it is impossible for someone to continue to live as before they were saved if indeed they were filled with the Holy Spirit. If one is not filled with the Holy Spirit, then I guess you know where I am leading.

I can sum up my belief with this statement.

The only way I know for any man or woman on earth to escape the sinner's pay day on earth and the sinner's hell beyond; making sure of the Christian's pay day on earth and the Christian's heaven beyond the Christian's pay day; is through Christ Jesus, who took the sinner's place upon the Cross, becoming for all sinners all that God must judge, that sinners through faith in Christ Jesus might become all that God cannot judge.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

I called BBC to inform them of my intentions of addressing the congregation Sunday so they could elect me as President Deacon.

I was transferred to some guy who told me that I was entitled to strive to move into positions of influence and leadership by convincing the congregation of my worth and entitlement to such a position. And of course I told him that's exactly what I'd be doing on Sunday morning. After he then hung up on me, I was left with the impression that he might not vote for me.

And security better not try any funny business either...when my vestigial tails get to waggin' it's go time!

Also, after my election as president deacon, would I be entitled to plow up one of those fenced off fields behind the church to maybe grow some early fall mustards and turnips? I see they already have some little metal stacking shelves for fertilizer and some little covered mule stalls on each side of the field. Man, I can hardly wait for the greens and cornbread!!

William T. Loney, MD

Piglet said...

delivered by grace

From what I've read...

Maybe the phrase "independent of salvation" is a little misleading to some?

Sounds like you agree that works are a natural result of true salvation so they are linked - but works do not bring about salvation.....?

Delivered By Grace said...

concernedsbcer stated:

I absolutely believe the robber received salvation, because Jesus told him he did, but I do think there is a big difference in receiving Jesus at the very end of your life, and receiving Him early, ignoring Him throughout your life, and then dying. Oh, you are no less saved, but you certainly will not be rewarded as we all strive to be. I want to be His servant, and impact others for Him....not accept Him then never honor Him.

Response:

I agree totally. This is the point I have made repeatedly. I think it proves my point that salvation is independent of works since this redeemed robber had no opportunity to bear good fruit, partake in deep study of the scriptures, and receve purification from from God through the scriptures. Dr. Rogers taught of the crowns we receive in life. I doubt the robber went to be with Jesus posessing many crowns. Yet he went.

Junkster said...

all2jesus said...
Ok, let's clear up the confusion about Jon's truthfulness.
...
Sorry folks; Jon's innocent in this case.


Piglet said...
all2jesus
Kudos to you for clearing this up.


Yes, all2, thanks for making it more clear. My communication style tends to be less direct (asking questions rather than making statements), and I was hoping my questions would lead to a re-examination of all that was said. Took a while, but I hope we're all of the same understanding now.

Now I will be more direct ... here is my real concern ... if Jon says something (perhaps not clearly) that is msunderstood, and then people say he lied, how will be respond? He will just come back and accuse people of throwing spears, of picking on him, and of lacking grace. That's why he's here. I just didn't want to see people playing into his hands.





Word verification: fdryou. That's called a presidential pronoun.

concernedSBCer said...

Junk: Agreed.

:)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Someone informed me that a small sign has been added to the front of the "Donna Shrine" which reads as follows:

The purpose of this periodically changing historical display in the years following our Centennial celebration in 2003 has been to feature the people, events and ministries of Bellevue Baptist Church during its one hundred years plus existence.

Among our past displays have been


Robert G. Lee -- The Early Years
Robert G. Lee -- The Pre-Bellevue Ministry Years
Robert G. Lee -- The Bellevue Years
The Life and Ministry of Ramsey Pollard
The Life and Ministry of James Whitmire
Steve Gaines -- The Early Years
Donna Dodds Gaines -- The Early Years

Proposed plans for future displays not necessarily in this order

Adrian Rogers -- The Early Years
Joyce Rogers -- The Early Years
Adrian and Joyce Rogers -- The Ministry Years
Tommy and Elizabeth Lane -- The Ministry Years
Steve and Donna Gaines -- The Ministry Years
Bellevue Staff -- Past and Present
The Singing Christmas Tree
The Bellevue Television Ministry -- 50 Years

Bellevue Baptist Church Historical Committee

Do you think someone's been reading the blog?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Dr. Loney wrote:

"And security better not try any funny business either...when my vestigial tails get to waggin' it's go time!"

A mental image that's going to be hard to shake... so to speak.

Lynn said...

Bellevue Staff -- Past and Present



I can see it now....a Bellevue Staff Hall of Fame:

PW
Bellevue Security
Picture of the pastor and deacons jumping a fence



Yeah, that will work....NOT

ezekiel said...

I was all grinned up and thinking I will sleep better tonight, now that you cleared all this up until...

"The only way I know for any man or woman on earth to escape the sinner's pay day on earth and the sinner's hell beyond; making sure of the Christian's pay day on earth and the Christian's heaven beyond the Christian's pay day; is through Christ Jesus, who took the sinner's place upon the Cross, becoming for all sinners all that God must judge, that sinners through faith in Christ Jesus might become all that God cannot judge.

11:21 PM, July 19, 2007

Can you show me in scripture where the Christians pay day on earth is? Also...again from scripture where christians become all that God cannot judge?

Again, thanks for the clarification!

Piglet said...

wacky lynn

Somewhere in the display should be a pair of Steve's pants with a 43 inch inseam.

Wonder what happened to those..

Dr. Bill Loney said...

Great news!! Fred Thompson is endorsing my presidential deacon candidacy.


O, I'm sorry, not Senator Fred Thompson...but the Fred Thompson who is painting my landlady's front porch rocking chairs.

WTL, MD

Delivered By Grace said...

piglet stated:

From what I've read...

Maybe the phrase "independent of salvation" is a little misleading to some?

Sounds like you agree that works are a natural result of true salvation so they are linked - but works do not bring about salvation.....?


Response:

Piglet

That depends on if you have read what I said or if you have read what someone else has SAID what I said.

Salvation is independent of works, I have also clearly stated that works are an important byproduct of salvation but soes not enter into that salvation.

And no, I have not changed my stance; haven't done that in 45 years.

ezekiel said...

Concerned, Delivered,

I think that if you look closely at the robber on the cross you see several important things...

1)Confession/Faith
2)Repentance
3)Justification by the death of Jesus
4)Sanctification by the WORD...Jesus spoke and the robber was clean.
5)Glorification...the robber was certainly crucified to flesh....in His image.

In a sense...the robber had it easy...it didn't take him a life time to crucify his flesh to sin...

The other Robber of course, cursed God and died...

Ever wonder why there was just two? One good and one bad....One saved and one died in sin...sound familiar?

Piglet said...

Delivered by grace

I'm not sure if we just agreed or not. Semantics may be the problem.

I was just trying to help...

gmommy said...

Dr Loney....thank you for the laugh!!!
It has been such a stressful day...separate from the blog....

If security gives you any trouble,we will make sure it is front page news so
smile pretty if they send in the handcuff police!

Delivered By Grace said...

ezekiel stated:

I was all grinned up and thinking I will sleep better tonight, now that you cleared all this up until...

"The only way I know for any man or woman on earth to escape the sinner's pay day on earth and the sinner's hell beyond; making sure of the Christian's pay day on earth and the Christian's heaven beyond the Christian's pay day; is through Christ Jesus, who took the sinner's place upon the Cross, becoming for all sinners all that God must judge, that sinners through faith in Christ Jesus might become all that God cannot judge.

11:21 PM, July 19, 2007

Can you show me in scripture where the Christians pay day on earth is? Also...again from scripture where christians become all that God cannot judge?

Again, thanks for the clarification!

Response:

Well I would be glad to do that for you.

But I have to fill you in on something. The statement that you have such a problem is the final statement in a sermon that Dr. Robert G. Lee preached, quite a few times if I remember. The sermon title is Pay-Day--Someday. But your statement makes sense to me. If you dispute Dr. Lee's prescription for salvation, you would definitely dispute mine.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

newbbcopenforum said:
Dr. Loney wrote:

"And security better not try any funny business either...when my vestigial tails get to waggin' it's go time!"

'A mental image that's going to be hard to shake... so to speak.'


Please, I remind all you God-fearing ladies out there...refrain from carnal thoughts!!

WTL, MD

PS...imagine how hard the image would have been to shake if I had mentioned me shirtless in a Speedo with my back hair flapping in the breeze...just be lucky I didn't!

concernedSBCer said...

Ezekiel, I get that. I'm really tired, so I may end up deleting this! I think on this we are all agreeing. Yes, the thief on the cross went through everything to be saved and Jesus acknowleged that. I just made the comment that he didn't live a life of service due to the circumstances but yes, he still was just as saved....

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
Someone informed me that a small sign has been added to the front of the "Donna Shrine" which reads as follows:

The purpose of this periodically changing historical display in the years following our Centennial celebration in 2003 has been to feature the people, events and ministries of Bellevue Baptist Church during its one hundred years plus existence.


Herein lies the problem with such displays honoring men and women ... even if those are worthy of honor, it creates a mindset of honoring leadership merely because they are leadership ... which leads to honoring the less honorable leaders as well, and honoring things about them that are less worthy of honor (like their lunchboxes and tiaras).

Just sayin'
The Junkster, friend of oc :)

Dr. Bill Loney said...

addendum to 'display list':

Dr. Loney...the day he was elected deacon president
Dr. Loney...later that day, being beaten by security using hymn books
Dr. Loney...later that evening, sneaking back in dressed as Captain, from 'Captain & Tennile'

WTL, MD

ezekiel said...

Deliveredbygrace,

Yes, you are right....I think I have been an equal opportunity "disser" if you will when it comes to "my pastor said".

I don't care if Rg. Lee said it, Dr Rogers, SG or anyone else short of the WORD. They are/were all men. You might want to put them up there next to Paul or Peter or John...but I won't. I think I asked where that came from in the WORD....

It is ok if you don't know.....

concernedSBCer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gmommy said...

Junk...
so sorry my comment to you came off negative.

I really didn't have any negative in my heart.
I'm glad you see things the way you do and I love your fareness and balance.
I like your sense of humor too!!
I have none.
People laugh when I am dead serious and I am the one confused.

There was a time when I always saw the good first and my radar never went off.
Not saying anything about your radar here at all.
I just don't believe Jon means anyone here any good.

I still want you to bowl with us soon!! We have quite a little rag tag team of bowlers:) and getting better at it everyday!

all2jesus said...

NASS said...
Someone informed me that a small sign has been added to the front of the "Donna Shrine" which reads as follows:

[Historical Committee disclaimer, yada, yada, yada...]


Donna obviously has a history (don't we all), but what do trinkets, photos and such collected by her mother have to do with Bellevue, Historical Committee? The Shrine is simply a blatant attempt to manufacture celebrity. It has more in common with Graceland than Bellevue, except Elvis was a celebrity before his shrine was built.

If you Historical guys are reading the blog, I have a suggestion. Take down this faux historical tripe and install something less embarrassing like Dr. Loney's medical degrees.

Junkster said...

gmommy said...
so sorry my comment to you came off negative.

No problem at all ... I was not at all upset by it or by any of the discussion. I can disagree and discuss things without getting upset. (Not that I always do, but generally I can.) :)

I still want you to bowl with us soon!! We have quite a little rag tag team of bowlers:) and getting better at it everyday!

Y'all have been bolwing every day? Wow, that's gotta build up the muscles in one arm! (Humor.)

:)

ezekiel said...

Questions to ponder....

What is a profane person? Is it a person that claims to be saved..claims his birthright as a christian....yet sells that birthright for the fleshly desires of his heart. Every sin imaginable.....or just the little ones that we don't want to get rid of....profanity, anger....hate....

Hebrews 12:14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 looking carefully lest there be any man that falleth short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby the many be defiled;

16 lest there be any fornication, or profane person, as Esau, who for one mess of meat sold his own birthright.

17 For ye know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no place for a change of mind in his father, though he sought is diligently with tears.

18 For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that no word more should be spoken unto them;

20 for they could not endure that which was enjoined, If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned;

21 and so fearful was the appearance, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:

22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels,

23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned them on earth, much more shall not we escape who turn away from him that warneth from heaven:

26 whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe:

29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Junkster said...

all2jesus said...
If you Historical guys are reading the blog, I have a suggestion. Take down this faux historical tripe and install something less embarrassing like Dr. Loney's medical degrees.

Fitting, seeing he is soon to be deacon president.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Guys,

I'm not completely sure the historical committee was responsible for all this. Paul Adams, the librarian, explained to someone several weeks ago that they, the library staff, were the ones responsible for the display case. I'll do some checking.

Delivered By Grace said...

ezekiel stated:

I don't care if Rg. Lee said it, Dr Rogers, SG or anyone else short of the WORD. They are/were all men. You might want to put them up there next to Paul or Peter or John...but I won't. I think I asked where that came from in the WORD....

Response:

Am I to conclude that the Holy Spirit has opened your eyes where He has blinded the likes of R.G. Lee, Adrian Pollard, Ramsey Pollard, Billy Graham, Charles Ryrie, Michael Spradlin, et al?

You must consider yourself in quite a light.

But me? I don't consider myself quited learned enough to be a "disser" of such tools of God.

But I do put the WORD above those I mentioned above and will even include Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Juke, and both Johns. For the WORD is the one that died for me and rescued me from the punishment due me because of my sins.

ezekiel:

It is ok if you don't know.....

Response:

Oh yes, I know.....

I refer you back to my previous posts.....

Delivered By Grace said...

ezekiel stated:

I don't care if Rg. Lee said it, Dr Rogers, SG or anyone else short of the WORD. They are/were all men. You might want to put them up there next to Paul or Peter or John...but I won't.

Response:

So you consider Peter and Paul more than mere men?


Interesting....

Delivered By Grace said...

ezekiel stated:

What is a profane person? Is it a person that claims to be saved..claims his birthright as a christian....yet sells that birthright for the fleshly desires of his heart. Every sin imaginable.....or just the little ones that we don't want to get rid of....profanity, anger....hate....


Response:

You will need to fill in some blanks.

First - Birthright as a Christian. Are you referring to the Calvinist view of the birthright of the elect. I cannot comment on that since I can find no evidence of irrestible grace in Jesus' teachings.

Are you referring to the birthright being a believer's salvation? I cannot comment on this either since Jesus clearly teaches that salvation is everlasting and cannot be 'sold'.

As I have stated earlier, I do not think God ranks sins. Of course I also know that it is impossible for me not to sin, even though Jesus has redeemed me. Believe it or not I let a curse word slip every now and again. I am not perfect, just forgiven.

Anger is not a sin or Jesus would not qualify to be my saviour.

Profanity can take many forms. It can involve curse words, jestures, and overall actions.

Here is a perfect example:

I know some profane people who would never let a cuss word fly or would never flip the bird. But they would sure swindle anyone for a dollar. They conive in business for that almighty buck. They measure their worth by the size of their bank account. I have known them to have made millions by any means possible and then find salvation. They may have made that money while living apart from God, but it's interesting, their bank accounts continue to grow after they were 'redeemed'. Seems they are very selective in their scriptural studies.

Luke 16
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


Matthew 19
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 12
41And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.


I hope my example sheds light that I cite not to condemn but to point out that I may critize you for cursing while I, myself continue to horde worldly posessions.

I believe that most if not all of us have sins that we don't want to get rid of. Remember we will NEVER be perfect in this life. We hall have dark corners in our lives. I

Delivered By Grace said...

ezekiel stated:

Concerned, Delivered,

I think that if you look closely at the robber on the cross you see several important things...

1)Confession/Faith
2)Repentance
3)Justification by the death of Jesus
4)Sanctification by the WORD...Jesus spoke and the robber was clean.
5)Glorification...the robber was certainly crucified to flesh....in His image.

In a sense...the robber had it easy...it didn't take him a life time to crucify his flesh to sin...

Response:

Thank you ezekiel for this post. I really thought that you felt that works (purification, santification, scriptural study, bearing good fruit, etc.) were necessary for salvation. This is the first post I have read that you agree that someone could be redeemed without performing any of those.

I doubt we are very far off in our understanding of the scriptures. I think you feel that someone must perform the above to be redeemed. I feel that the redeemed will WILLINGLY perform the above once redeemed.

As far as God's messengers that exist today? We still have major differences of opinion. I feel God provides us with these men to aid us in or walk with God.

gmommy said...

How funny.
The Bratton blog is accusing the person that "identifies herself" as a grandmother...
which I am...
of making death threats.....

What a stretch even for that loving blog...and The most humble MB......LOL

Sorry to disappoint you Bratton.

"fish bait" was an attempt to restrain my opinion of him.

How funny you are...and paranoid...
to think I was making a death threat.
Can't wait to hear all the hate filled lies and gossip about the grandmother...
who just happened to be preyed on by the staff sexual predator of BBC
and then re injured by the cover up from the leadership...

is now being accused by Bratton himself of making death threats.
And this because of my personal opinion
that this minister
is a self absorbed little man.

Big leap...How funny.

KNock yourself out with that one.

Jon L. Estes said...

all2jesus,

Thank you for taking time to see clearly what I was typing.

jle

larry said...

imaresistor said...
I know from being here on this blog for some time now that most of you know about contemplative prayer...contemplative spirituality. However, I have to say that if there are those of you who don't understand contemplative, please do a deep study...this is so you will know it when you see it. A very, deep study.


Please don't do a deep study of a New Age ritual. I strongly advise against it. You'll be exposing yourself to a lot of strangeness.

I've seen this posted here many times, but I'll repeat it. When men are trained to spot counterfeit money they don't study the fake stuff, they study the real thing.

If you feel that you really need to know more, then make absolutely sure to find a resource that was written by a trustworthy Christian author.

I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

concernedSBCer said...

Delivered, that is not what he said.

Lin said...

Boy, Delieveredbygrace loves to set traps.

I am starting to think that dbg leans toward antinomianism.

But, it really boils down to the fact that he/she keeps advocating a 'non-Lordship salvation' whether he/she wants to admit it or not.

And this is how subtle false teachers are. Scripture says they come in secretly. There is always a bit of truth in false teaching so we must be Bereans. :o)

dby writes: Am I to conclude that the Holy Spirit has opened your eyes where He has blinded the likes of R.G. Lee, Adrian Pollard, Ramsey Pollard, Billy Graham, Charles Ryrie, Michael Spradlin, et al?"

What is wrong with this statement?

Well first of all, Peter was certainly not the cream of the crop... Rabbinically speaking. He was considered 'uneducated' by the Pharisees. Yet the Lord chose to show him the 'mysteries of the Kingdom'.

Ironically, Paul was the scholar yet Christ chose to send him to the Gentiles. Such are the ways of our Lord.

Secondly, (I am assuming Adrian Pollard is Dr. Rogers) Most of these men are dead but in any case, Ryrie (and Hodges) are very controversial figures in Christendom. I find it strange you link Rogers and Ryrie in the same sentence. Is Rogers known for no-Lordship salvation?

Here is a quote from Ryrie's book 'Balancing the Christian Life' writing about Jesus as Lord or "Lordship Salvation:

"The importance of this question cannot be overestimated in relation to both salvation and sanctification. The message of faith only and the message of faith plus commitment of life cannot both be the gospel; therefore, one of them is false and comes under the curse of perverting the gospel or preaching another gospel" (p. 170).

Do you see the parallels with what dbg is saying? Ryrie is basically calling a 'commitment of life' to the Lord, 'works'. He is saying 'commitment of Life' is faith + something.

My question to this is: What are we saved to? We are saved 'unto Christ'.

Thirdly, It is with great regret and saddness that I must check everything out of the mouth of Billy Graham. I have personally seen 2 interviews where Graham said that it is possible to be saved without Jesus Christ.

And lastly, yes, it is possible for someone 'unlearned' to have their eyes opened by the Holy Spirit. If He so chooses and He has. Some are the eyes of poor peasants in Romania to His Lordship and who do not consider sanctification 'works'. (I know some of them)

Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is the foundation of everything. If we do not get that part right...we cannot get anything else right. And that, my friends, is very scary.

Please check these things out for yourselves. Don't believe me. Don't believe dbg. There is just too much riding on eternity to believe something that is false.

Lin said...

Larry wrote: I've seen this posted here many times, but I'll repeat it. When men are trained to spot counterfeit money they don't study the fake stuff, they study the real thing. "

Amen, Larry.

westtnbarrister said...

ezekiel said...
Concerned, Delivered,

I think that if you look closely at the robber on the cross you see several important things...

1)Confession/Faith
2)Repentance
3)Justification by the death of Jesus
4)Sanctification by the WORD...Jesus spoke and the robber was clean.
5)Glorification...the robber was certainly crucified to flesh....in His image.



Ezekiel,

Interesting point. What you mentioned is referred to as the "ordo salutis" (order of salvation) by theologians.

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is
1) outward call
2) faith/election
3) repentance
4) regeneration
5) justification
6) perseverance
7) glorification

Notice the crucial difference in the orders of regeneration and faith. While the Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power. Even with the help of grace he still must find it within himself to believe or reject Christ. This has broad implications and raises questions like why does one man believe and not another? You might also notice that, according to Arminians, election is dependent on faith, not the other way around. This is no small matter ...understanding the biblical order, while keeping in mind its unitary process, is crucial and has a profound impact on how one views God, the gospel, and the Bible as a whole.

www.monergism.com

Lin said...

Since dbg has mentioned Ryrie, I want to give an opposing view on this 'no Lordship Salvation' teaching from another mere man:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-R-2.htm

Be a Berean!! :o)

Lin said...

"So you consider Peter and Paul more than mere men?"

1 Corinthians 12

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Here is the Greek for Apostle:

ἀπόστολος
apostolos
ap-os'-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

Yes, they were mere men that God appointed first in the church.

The ones you mention above were mere men who wrote 'Inspired' scripture. Methinks I would heed what they wrote (that is Inspired) over what McArthur, Ryrie, Rogers, or any other man., says or writes.

Just a thought.

johnthebaptist said...

Dr. Bill.....

I know that I wasn't a part of your administration however, I believe so much in your being the Deacon President, I have taken it upon myself to raise funds and secure a nice ride that is fitting a high position as you are seeking.

Between the spam raffles and the pigs feet cookoffs, we have raised $18.74. That does include the 18 cents I found in the sofa of my next door neighbor.

I know! The news just keeps getting better! I have secured a sweet ride for you!
Are you sitting down???
A 1978 Buick Electra! Taaadaaa!
I know what your thinking...how did Bro. John hook me up so good? Well I do have connections and nothing is too good for the Deacon President to be!

It need a "little" work but I have put in an engine (lawn mower), transmission(2 gears), air(actually a fan) new tires(used) and I am about to paint it....at least part of it. I have 7 cans of Magenta spray paint. I might be able to get some power blue gloss wall paint but I didn't want it to conflict with your suit. What do you think?

The "Deaconmobile" can be your mobile office as well.

Note: to those fellow Memphians who might be missing a lawn mower motor, a transmission that has only 2 speeds, a fan, and 9 used tires, they should show up after MR. DEACON PRESIDENT'S term is up or if by some imaginable reason that bid for office fails.
You might even be able to write off the items as an "charitable contribution". Please consult your tax advisor for details.

All resemblance of the 1978 Buick Electra to my neighbors 1978 Buick Electra is mearly or actually a coincidence. All VIN numbers have been removed so any accusations that the car belongs to you are unprovable.

Well Doc. L., Let me know what you think. I am still trying to raise more funds.

Maybe a armadillo potpie sale?

all2jesus said...

NASS said...
I'm not completely sure the historical committee was responsible for all this. Paul Adams, the librarian, explained to someone several weeks ago that they, the library staff, were the ones responsible for the display case.


Well, the Historical Committee did post the placard. There's probably quite a bit of overlap between them and the library; what the library would be doing Donna's stuff is beyond me.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Last night I wrote:

"I'm not completely sure the historical committee was responsible for all this. Paul Adams, the librarian, explained to someone several weeks ago that they, the library staff, were the ones responsible for the display case. I'll do some checking."

I've done some checking. Paul Adams, Church Librarian, is the staff consultant for the historical committee, hence his involvement. Perhaps some of the library staff helped with the setup. Current historical committee members (and the year each rotates off) include:

Chairperson: Jay Perkins 08
Members: Emily Cochran 08
Peggy Garland 08
Bobby Parchman 08
Peggy Perkins 08
Edwin Bryson 09
Joyce Bryson 09
Joe Hamilton 09
Nancy Hamilton 09
Mark Alan Vinson 10

Information from the Lay Ministry Committees 2007-2008 booklet distributed to everyone before the March 25th "business" meeting.

Really the main question I have is why, if they think they need to do something like this, they would choose to feature Steve and Donna Gaines when they've never done anything for Dr. and/or Mrs. Rogers.

imaresistor said...

Larry,

Of course, if one knows the scripture he will recognize the counterfeit and that is as it should be. I think all of us agree to that, no doubt about it. Thus…the people at Faith should be questioning this stuff ongoing in their church. Are they?

In your second paragraph you advise people NOT to study the movements; yet in your fourth paragraph you tell people that should they NEED TO KNOW MORE, be sure to find a good resource.

This is the same thing I am saying Larry. When you recognize there is something strange, unusual, different, new, odd, ongoing within the church-it would be a good thing to understand it’s premise. Today, we are seeing that these things are rampant within our churches. Our churches, once solid and strong, are now being torn apart because of this stuff. The sad thing is that people are not recognizing it. Not only that, they are falling for this stuff and are loving it, they get so excited about all this stuff. People just are not grounded in God's Word. You are right.

Now…back to the focus of my conversation: Study and know God’s word, number one. Know the scripture. Number two: also educate yourselves to the various movements in our churches today, so that should this creep into your churches…you will see it and know what you are dealing with. If something is not clearly biblical…question it and do something about it.

I am not arguing with you Larry…not even debating you. I respect what you have said. Over the last three years, I have done an extensive study on these movements out of necessity in that I needed to know what was going on in my own church. There is so much filth out there… I hurt for people who are being deceived. 

ezekiel said...

Deliveredbygrace,

You said....

"Anger is not a sin or Jesus would not qualify to be my saviour."

You apparantly struggle with the teachings of the WORD. I suggest you look over Cain and Able....Cains anger was sin and resulted in murder. In fact all anger is murder...it kills everything it touches.....Anger in your marriage kills it... anger in any other relationship kills it....Anger and hate cannot exist in the presence of love....Remember that chief commandment...."Love your neighbor"?

When you attempt to hide behind Jesus' righteous anger to justify your own sin....you commit more sin....

I have seen people throw a fit at the resturant or have a cuss fight with their spouse..it all boils down to what and who you are killing when you do it....No one is perfect until perfected. Displaying anger and then equating it with Jesus' righteous anger is distorting the WORD. SG even got that sermon right....

ezekiel said...

Deliveredbygrace,

If anyone here distorts what has been said and misrepresents someone elses position it is you.

ezekiel stated:

I don't care if Rg. Lee said it, Dr Rogers, SG or anyone else short of the WORD. They are/were all men. You might want to put them up there next to Paul or Peter or John...but I won't. I think I asked where that came from in the WORD....

Response:

Am I to conclude that the Holy Spirit has opened your eyes where He has blinded the likes of R.G. Lee, Adrian Pollard, Ramsey Pollard, Billy Graham, Charles Ryrie, Michael Spradlin, et al?

You must consider yourself in quite a light.

Now just where have I said any of those were blinded or that I had more light? I just asked you to show me scripture and you start quoting your preacher...Now where is the Word in that?

But me? I don't consider myself quited learned enough to be a "disser" of such tools of God.

Then why do you "diss" the WORD by quoting man?

But I do put the WORD above those I mentioned above and will even include Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Juke, and both Johns. For the WORD is the one that died for me and rescued me from the punishment due me because of my sins.

The whole WORD is inspired...heaven breathed...There is red letter writing in John as well. If we are to take your word for it...the Bible should have began with Matthew and ended there.

ezekiel:

It is ok if you don't know.....

Response:

Oh yes, I know.....

I refer you back to my previous posts.....

And still no scripture to back it up

1:48 AM, July 20, 2007

sickofthelies said...

ALL2Jesus wrote:

what the library would be doing Donna's stuff is beyond me.


reply:

My guess is that it mysteriously showed up, bagged and tagged, at the library.

ezekiel said...

Delivered...

ezekiel stated:

Concerned, Delivered,

I think that if you look closely at the robber on the cross you see several important things...

1)Confession/Faith
2)Repentance
3)Justification by the death of Jesus
4)Sanctification by the WORD...Jesus spoke and the robber was clean.
5)Glorification...the robber was certainly crucified to flesh....in His image.

In a sense...the robber had it easy...it didn't take him a life time to crucify his flesh to sin...

Response:

Thank you ezekiel for this post. I really thought that you felt that works (purification, santification, scriptural study, bearing good fruit, etc.) were necessary for salvation. This is the first post I have read that you agree that someone could be redeemed without performing any of those.

I doubt we are very far off in our understanding of the scriptures. I think you feel that someone must perform the above to be redeemed. I feel that the redeemed will WILLINGLY perform the above once redeemed.

More distortion....I have never said salvation was based on works....I have always said that works/fruit is a result of salvation not a means to it. You have been making the case for days that salvation is totally independant of works...To view it as such is a distortion of scripture. All2Jesus laid it out very well when he quoted James..I suggest a little study there for you.

As far as God's messengers that exist today? We still have major differences of opinion. I feel God provides us with these men to aid us in or walk with God.

I agree. However we are taught to test everything against scripture....Quoting RG Lee or Dr Rogers or SG all leads down the road to idol worship....When these men are being led by the Spirit, they are indeed an aid in our walk....But are you willing to take the chance that they are not always walking in the Spirit and not the flesh? I think they figtht the same fight I fight every day...the one between the spirit and the flesh. Are you willing to base your salvation on the things said on the day the flesh won? THAT IS WHY WE TEST EVERYTHING AGAINST SCRIPTURE

In a simple non scriptural example of what I think you have been saying for days....

Consider salvation as the light switch....and the light in the room is the light you have when the LIGHT comes into your life...

You appear to believe that the turning on of the switch is independant of the light in the room.....

I believe that the light comes on when the switch is thrown and all the spiders and creapy things have to go some where else... Because darkness can't exist where there is light....



3:05 AM, July 20, 2007

32yrs@bbc said...

Really the main question I have is why, if they think they need to do something like this, they would choose to feature Steve and Donna Gaines when they've never done anything for Dr. and/or Mrs. Rogers.
---------------

Because the Rogers are now considered passe` and it is no longer politically correct to mention them. JMO

ezekiel said...

Deliveredbygrace,

ezekiel stated:

What is a profane person? Is it a person that claims to be saved..claims his birthright as a christian....yet sells that birthright for the fleshly desires of his heart. Every sin imaginable.....or just the little ones that we don't want to get rid of....profanity, anger....hate....


Response:

You will need to fill in some blanks.

First - Birthright as a Christian. Are you referring to the Calvinist view of the birthright of the elect. I cannot comment on that since I can find no evidence of irrestible grace in Jesus' teachings.

No, it was not a trick question. It appears that the birthright Hebrews is referring to is the birthright all received as a result of the death of Jesus on the cross...He did die for everyone's sin right?

Are you referring to the birthright being a believer's salvation? I cannot comment on this either since Jesus clearly teaches that salvation is everlasting and cannot be 'sold'.

No,See above.

As I have stated earlier, I do not think God ranks sins. Of course I also know that it is impossible for me not to sin, even though Jesus has redeemed me. Believe it or not I let a curse word slip every now and again. I am not perfect, just forgiven.

That brings up some interesting questions. Are you any more forgiven for cursing than the rich man you use in your example below...if he is saved? Since you believe sin is not ranked...is the sin of his repetitive greed any more likely to result in eternal death than the repetitive sin of cursing? Is the rich man any more guilty of greed than the one that covets his riches?

Anger is not a sin or Jesus would not qualify to be my saviour.

I don't know where in the world you come up with this but Jesus...says it ain't so.

Matthew 5:21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

That may be what you use to justify screaming and cursing at your spouse or kids or the lady at walmart, but I would suggest you look at it again...




Profanity can take many forms. It can involve curse words, jestures, and overall actions.

Here is a perfect example:

I know some profane people who would never let a cuss word fly or would never flip the bird. But they would sure swindle anyone for a dollar. They conive in business for that almighty buck. They measure their worth by the size of their bank account. I have known them to have made millions by any means possible and then find salvation. They may have made that money while living apart from God, but it's interesting, their bank accounts continue to grow after they were 'redeemed'. Seems they are very selective in their scriptural studies.

I have substituted Matthew for your example of sinful greed to show another side of wealth that is not sinful....

25:16He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.

Just because one has earthly riches doesn't mean that he is greedy....Abraham, and many of his decendants were quite wealthy....and I don't remember anywhere that it says Sarah controlled any part of it but it is apparent that she had access to all of it.

That rich guy you see may be following 1 Thes 4:11 and to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, 12so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.

and Psalms 90:17Let the favor[a] of the Lord our God be upon us,
and establish the work of our hands upon us;
yes, establish the work of our hands


I hope my example sheds light that I cite not to condemn but to point out that I may critize you for cursing while I, myself continue to horde worldly posessions.

I believe that most if not all of us have sins that we don't want to get rid of. Remember we will NEVER be perfect in this life. We hall have dark corners in our lives. I

The sins that you don't want to get rid of are what you trade your birthright for.. Just like Esau..Hebrews 12. A good question to be considering is whether or not Esau was ever saved....I vote no.

Hebrews 12:12Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

Esau was more interested in filling his belly...call it a fleshly desire than he was in claiming his birthright...if he would have claimed his birthright, he would have been saved. Instead he got caught "dealing with the devil" so to speak....

This is written from the armenian perspective (I think) because I gather that you are of that persuasion from your writings. So was the light switch example.

If you lean calvanistic... Esau never had a choice and he was destined, preordained to trade his birthright...Jacob was the elect.

That still does not erase the heartsick condition of Esau when he found that he could not repent....for those that cherish those little dark corners and refuse to submit to Jesus...that same heart sickness awaits at some point in the future...



2:45 AM, July 20, 2007

Lin said...

Delivered by grace...if you are still around I am curious if you would let me know which ones of the examples below from Mark 4 are saved:

13 And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?

14 The sower sows the word. 15And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them.

16And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy.

17And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

18And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word,

19but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

20But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold

concernedSBCer said...

JohntheBaptist: With regard to your generous donation of the 1978 Electra, I have some Christmas candles that would make a perfect interior light source and would also provide heat during the winter months. I would be honored to donote them for our new Deacon President's smashing new ride!

With regard to the car-office, I have a "vintage" Batman lap tray that, with just a little cleaning, would make a distinguished desk.

Let me know!

imaresistor said...

Oh my...it continues. The PDC lives on:

Pastor Threatens to Have Congregants Arrested

Sound familiar?

imaresistor said...

Amos 8:11-12

11. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: 12. And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

johnthebaptist said...

concernedSBCer said...
JohntheBaptist: With regard to your generous donation of the 1978 Electra, I have some Christmas candles that would make a perfect interior light source and would also provide heat during the winter months. I would be honored to donote them for our new Deacon President's smashing new ride!

With regard to the car-office, I have a "vintage" Batman lap tray that, with just a little cleaning, would make a distinguished desk.

Let me know!


Reply: Concerned...Thank you for the Christmas candles & the Batman lap tray. This car just keeps getting better!
I hope the candles don't provide too much heat for the good Dr. Deacon Prez due to the over-stimulated backhair folicles. I hope they are flame resistant.

*Note to self...order a fire extingisher for backhair.

The lap tray should work wonderfully.

Anyone have a hot tub for the trunk? Deacon President needs a place for Deacon meetings, ya know.

johnthebaptist said...

I am also working on a display
(like SG & DG)...Dr. Deacon President..."The Early Years"....before he because deacon president.

This display should fit in the Buick with room to spare.

Dr. Deacon President, any suggestions?

Junkster said...

I have a question for you, Delivered By Grace ...

What is your point in promoting your views here?

Is it to attempt to persuade / teach others? If so, I don't think it's working, or likely to.

Is it to content for some vital truth that you feel is being ingored or denied by others? If so, I can't see why it would matter to you what sort of doctrine anyone here espouses, as long as they have faith in Jesus --which appears to be all that really matters in your view.

Is it just to try to win arguments with people? If so, your time would be better spent on other things, because you are not winning anything.

Is it to distract from the issues facing BBC by dancing on the heads of theological pins? If so, you're doing a fine job.

ezekiel said...

ima,

AMEN!..These are the days...

ezekiel said...

WTB,

"This has broad implications and raises questions like why does one man believe and not another? You might also notice that, according to Arminians, election is dependent on faith, not the other way around. This is no small matter ...understanding the biblical order, while keeping in mind its unitary process, is crucial and has a profound impact on how one views God, the gospel, and the Bible as a whole."

I agree.

Thanks for posting...I have missed your input..Nice knowing you are around!

Lily said...

Thank you Ima for those verses in Amos. How well they describe the here and now! I don't know about others but I have certainly experienced a famine from hearing the words of the LORD preached from the pulpit. Thank you Lord for leading me to a church where I can be fed and hear the Word of the Lord - as written - in context.

Junkster said...

concernedSBCer said...
With regard to the car-office, I have a "vintage" Batman lap tray that, with just a little cleaning, would make a distinguished desk.


"Now when Bill Loney was in Memphis, in the 1978 Electra of JohnTheBaptist,

There came unto him a woman having a vintage Batman lap tray of very precious design, and offered it for his Electra, as he sat in the seat.

But when his deacon presidential cabinet saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?

For this tray might have been sold on eBay for much, and given to the eaters of Spam.

When Bill Loney understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

For ye have the eaters of Spam always with you; but me ye have on the blog only.

For in that she hath offered this vintage Batman tray for my lap, she did it for my mobil office.

Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this 1978 Electra shall be driven in the whole of Memphis, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her."

MOM4 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MOM4 said...

MOM4 said...
imaresistor said...
Oh my...it continues. The PDC lives on:

Pastor Threatens to Have Congregants Arrested

Sound familiar?

4:14 PM, July 20, 2007

ima,

Sounds like the new medieval crusades without the Christian emphasis.

"I am god's (little g)anointed and if you don't like it, I'll have you arrested."

Another note - why is the "historical display" promoting the 2 people who have destroyed the church instead of the one's that actually DID something to build it up? The only "history" the Gaines' have at Bellevue is "taking out the trash" and "tearing down" and "casting out". hmmmmmmm......
5:33 PM, July 20, 2007

all2jesus said...

Another note - why is the "historical display" promoting the 2 people who have destroyed the church instead of the one's that actually DID something? The only "history" the Gaines' have at Bellevue is "taking out the trash" and "tearing down" and "casting out". hmmmmmmm......

Exactly why I suggested a display of infamous memobilia celebrating their actual accomplishments, which I won't bother to list. Hey, NASS, that's an idea for a discussion topic: What positive changes have occurred at Bellevue since the Gaines' arrived?

eprov said...

A new low....(early apology!)
I am going to say this, and without a history at Bellevue maybe I can get away with it. There is such a thing as discriminating taste, class and good manners. One of the redeeming qualities - again an observer's long distance opinion and one I have/had held for many years - was that Bellevue maintained a good balance of 'proper' decorum whether in the pulpit or music. Sorry to say, but the Gaines don't bring that to the table and the overall program, music certainly included, has an appearance that is serious lacking these qualities. Thus the display about them is at the least cheesy, something like a 1st Baptist in Podunk Holler.
I don't think anyone reading could have had a more humble beginning than I, but I have
learned 'better.'
I think God demands/expects excellence in all we do.

concernedSBCer said...

JohntheBaptist: You've got mail.
:)

Proverbs 12:22 said...

Thus the display about them is at the least cheesy, something like a 1st Baptist in Podunk Holler.

Kind of like that ridiculous new sign on Germantown Pkwy? P.T. Barnum couldn't have designed anything so tacky and gauche. Maybe our leaders thought all those comparisons to an amusement park were intended as compliments.

Lynn said...

Proverbs 12:22 said...

Thus the display about them is at the least cheesy, something like a 1st Baptist in Podunk Holler.

Kind of like that ridiculous new sign on Germantown Pkwy? P.T. Barnum couldn't have designed anything so tacky and gauche. Maybe our leaders thought all those comparisons to an amusement park were intended as compliments.

7:33 PM, July 20, 2007


Maybe Gaines is trying to turn Bellevue into Six Flags over Jesus.

Jon L. Estes said...

junkster

Now I will be more direct ... here is my real concern ... if Jon says something (perhaps not clearly) that is msunderstood, and then people say he lied, how will be respond? He will just come back and accuse people of throwing spears, of picking on him, and of lacking grace. That's why he's here. I just didn't want to see people playing into his hands.


Please show me where I accused anyone of throwing spears at me of picking on me and lacking grace towards me.

I would recommend that before anyone calls some else a liar, they attempt to clarify what they think might be a lie. It is possible it is not a lie.

Jon L. Estes said...

Piglet said...

all2jesus

Kudos to you for clearing this up.

I could see it but was just too lazy to spell it out like you did.

I haven't engaged Jon because of the reasons many have mentioned here, but I wouldn't question him based on the blog that was linked and their responses to him - they are full of double-talk and liberal spin - I wouldn't let that Bruce fellow into my church if I were Jon either.

11:09 PM, July 19, 2007


Thank you Piglet.

Delivered By Grace said...

ezekiel stated:

You apparantly struggle with the teachings of the WORD. I suggest you look over Cain and Able....

Response:

I suggest you look over Jesus at the Temple and the money changers.

13And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

John 2
16And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Jesus displays anger. So by you definition, if anger is a sin, then Jesus is a sinner.

You cannot make blanket statements like anger is a sin and the statement be correct. Just like you cannot say that hate is a sin. If there examples that you statement is false, then ipso-facto, your statement is false.

99% of anger is a sin, yes. But all anger is not sin.

I hate sin. that hate is not a sin. so if you say that hate is a sin that statement is only partly correct.

New BBC Open Forum said...

dbg,

Did you read "ezekiel's" 11:50 p.m. post yesterday? I think he explained what he meant quite clearly. Why don't you just drop it? You're like Jon Estes II -- all argument, no substance.

Proverbs 12:22 said...

"I hate sin. that hate is not a sin. so if you say that hate is a sin that statement is only partly correct."

I don't know you, so I can't comment on your anger. I can, however, say you've got a problem with sanctimony.

Also, your "hatred" of sin may not be a sin, but your statement that you "hate" sin is most assuredly a lie. Everything about us is tainted by sin. You may hate it intellectually, but deep down you love it. You say you hate it because you know you should, but you are incapable of truly hating it. We all are.

New BBC Open Forum said...

sanctimony

n.

Feigned piety or righteousness; hypocritical devoutness or high-mindedness.


Yep. I'd say that's a pretty good description.

concernedSBCer said...

Aw, Nass has her handy-dandy dictionary out! Good word, descriptive of a few folks I have met.....
;)

concernedSBCer said...

Hey Nass, got an extra? Dr. Loney could use it for his car-office.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

you will have to excuse me if my comments are a bit more Loney than usual...it seems that if you miss a couple of doses of the medicine that I take daily, it's not a good idea to triple up...my autographed picture of Authur Fonzerelli just gave me the thumbs down! Is it a little strange?...correct-a-mundo!

Bloggers, please desist from maligning the good folks from Podunk Holler...FYI, they have one of the highest concentrations of Loney per capita in the country...in fact, I remember my days as a youth when we would visit Podunk Holler 1st Baptist while Rev. Al B. Wright was still pastor...the preaching...the singing...the mid-aisle spittoons. I'm sorry, I am beginning to get a little misty.

Also, preserving the integrity of the Loney name is of utmost importance...being such, I had no alternative but to address certain falsehoods on Bratton's blog. But I suppose that on the eve of the eve of my election as president deacon, it should come as no surprise that my detractors should begin a smear campaign. I will not get involved in such mudslinging, unless of course it is at the annual 'Loney Family Mud-o-rama', celebrating our family's rich historical affection for dirt being mixed with water...I'm sorry, I'm getting misty again...it has to be the meds.

Anyway, my autographed picture of Fred Berry, 'RERUN', from 'What's Happening', has just began to breakdance...a clear indication that I need to report to my futon ASAP.

And remember, being kicked out of a place for violating the 'NO SHOES, NO SHIRT, NO SERVICE' policy is nothing to be ashamed of...though I thought it a bit strange since it WAS a swimming pool. When I'm elected deacon president, I will do all I can to rid the city of back-hair-a-phobes! We Shall Overcome!

William T. Loney, MD

oc said...

jon estes said:


junkster

Now I will be more direct ... here is my real concern ... if Jon says something (perhaps not clearly) that is msunderstood, and then people say he lied, how will be respond? He will just come back and accuse people of throwing spears, of picking on him, and of lacking grace. That's why he's here. I just didn't want to see people playing into his hands.

jon estes said:
Please show me where I accused anyone of throwing spears at me of picking on me and lacking grace towards me.

I would recommend that before anyone calls some else a liar, they attempt to clarify what they think might be a lie. It is possible it is not a lie.

8:57 PM, July 20, 2007

oc says:
That does it for me. You are an ingrate. Junk spent a lot of time and effort sticking up for you and proving a legitimate point favoring you. Now you pick one part of his post that may be interpretated as possibly negative of you and you use it to feel picked on. I've had enough. You are a punk.
Way to go.

Just sayin'.

oc.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

john the baptist,

thanks for the car...make sure it has an eight track...and could you get one of them old carphone attennas that look like a boomerang? now that's class!

addendum to president deacon staff list

*johnthebaptist-one crying in the wilderness(hallway)

WTL, MD

gmommy said...

eprov,
I agree with your 6:08 post.
Don't worry...
I have said the same thing before...
you said it more politely than I did.

New BBC Open Forum said...

From the other site:

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Uh... this is how we all knew Jon had posted all those comments on that blog and then deleted them. The issue wasn't that he'd deleted his own comments. Rather, it was that he hinted that Lin had some "inside" way of knowing the deleted comments were his.

Some of those timestamps make me wonder if Jon ever sleeps!

gmommy said...

Way to go Dr Loney!!
Not that MB won't turn your comment into something it is not...but WE love you!!!

Dr. Bill Loney said...

Death Threats?!?

I have enough trouble trying to keep myself from being gored by goats, from being dismembered by Bigfoot, from being blinded and crippled by law enforcement agencies at every level...my landlady even tried to run me down with her rascal! Luckily it only goes about 1 mph, so I was able to mosey out of the way.

Every day I put my life at risk because of my love affair with products of the discarded meat/bonefish genre. Not to mention that I recently took out my own appendix...well I think it was...strangely, since that self operation, I have taken on a odd yellowish-orange color...probably unrelated.

The point is those who know Dr. Loney will attest to the fact that beyond the occasional botched cankle reduction, I mean no ill will to no one. And come'on, it's not like I'm a great threat to anyone physically, especially since my humbling cock-fighting defeat in Corsicana at the spurs of Speckles, the meanest BardRock rooster west of the Mississippi...really though, that was a big chicken, and besides, he suckered spurred me.

Anyway, my meds are causing me to hallucinate more than normal...I could swear I just saw an emu walk out of my bathroom...wearing my pajamas no less! Night all

WTL, MD

socwork said...

Can anyone tell me why I'm still up right now?

Thanks.

Piglet said...

socwork says

Can anyone tell me why I'm still up right now?

Thanks.

Piglet says:

Is it because you have six hungry teenaged boys in your kitchen wanting the warm giant choc. chip cookies you just made with icecream and choc. fudge on top?

Oh, no....that would be me. :)

They show no signs of getting sleepy. :(

Anonymous said...

Socwork,

You’re in Hawaii?

Anonymous said...

Piglet,

Ooooo that's a wicked, mean spirited and down right cruel thing to tell us at this hour..... I'm so sinning after those cookies and ice cream......... Ha! Oh, by the way, I forgive you.

socwork said...

piglet said...
Is it because you have six hungry teenaged boys in your kitchen wanting the warm giant choc. chip cookies you just made with icecream and choc. fudge on top?


Oh, now that's just cruel. Now, where do you live again?

padroc said...
Socwork,

You’re in Hawaii?


Ok, now that's cruel too. I wish!

gmommy said...

socwork,
If you are anywhere near 50...that is why you are still up.
If you are not....just wait.

Junkster said...

socwork said...
Can anyone tell me why I'm still up right now?

Perhaps you're unable to sleep from discomfort due to being in great need of cankle reduction surgery. I know a highly regarded (in his own mind) medical professional who can help you out with that.

Junkster said...

gmommy said...
socwork,
If you are anywhere near 50...that is why you are still up.
If you are not....just wait.


You mean this tendency I've been experiencing in my late 40s to be wide awake well after midnight is only going to get worse?? That's so depressing I think I'll go to bed.

Jon L. Estes said...

OC,

I wanted to see where I had done what I was being accused of. Is that really to much to seek, when being accused?

Jon L. Estes said...

New,

And the blog thread I was looking at when making my comment did not have my name on it. Therefore I gave my opinion on how someone might know I had deleted my posts on the blog.

I still have my ideas, but that
s all they are. I do wonder how the the blog you cut and pasted from and the other one spoke of was discovered, since are both somewhat inconspicuous, in their own way, to the common lurker.

Anonymity (not a jab towards the posting here), can easily make people suspicious.

Jon L. Estes said...

Lin,

I do not agree with the other blogs either but I have to wonder where all of Jon's 'Grace' went when it came to his 'throwing spears' on the other blogs?


Was I throwing spears on the other blog? You come to this conclusion, how? I'd be interested to know how you would come to this conclusion.

I would encourage you to go to bl.com and be yourself, as you are here, and discuss the subjects with as much vigor. Speak out against any liberalism and check out the welcome you will get. Now if you went there and spoke against the SBC, conservative positions, any leader in the SBC you will be welcome, embraced...

Lin said...

"Was I throwing spears on the other blog? You come to this conclusion, how? I'd be interested to know how you would come to this conclusion."

SIGH. Wasn't too hard. Just read their responses to you. Obviously you were making them 'angry'. Does truth do that? Like here?

If you are so proud of your debating 'liberal' Christians, then why delete your comments? Why not let them stand?

But what about Grace? You came here accusing US of throwing spears. See how this works? You think it is ok to throw spears at them because they are LIBERAL.

Yet, we are concerned with a pastor who ignores and keeps a pedophile minister on staff and WE are throwing spears.

Estes wrote: "I would encourage you to go to bl.com and be yourself, as you are here, and discuss the subjects with as much vigor. Speak out against any liberalism and check out the welcome you will get. Now if you went there and spoke against the SBC, conservative positions, any leader in the SBC you will be welcome, embraced..."

Jon, I could care LESS about liberal or conservative. Those labels have done more to confuse doctrine than anything else. I know plenty of 'conservative' pastors who preach easy believism and that sins are 'mistakes'. I know plenty of conservative pastors who have so dumbed down the teaching of scripture it is unrecognizable. But they are good 'conservatives'.

Many of these conservative pastors will rail against the culture all the while harbor a pedophile or ignore blatent continual sin by their staffers. But railing against that horrible culture out there does fill seats. We can all feel good because WE are not like them.

But Paul says something different to the Corinthian church

11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."


You don't have to explain the hypocrisy in Christendom, I have seen it up close and personal. So don't give me this stuff about 'conservative' unless it is about DOCTRINE which includes accountability for pastors and sheep alike.

See, you have sounded like a liberal to me on this blog with your 'charm' and 'wit'. So much for labels.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

"I do wonder how the the blog you cut and pasted from and the other one spoke of was discovered, since are both somewhat inconspicuous, in their own way, to the common lurker."

Have you ever Googled yourself? I assure you that's the only way any of us "know" anything about you, that and what you've written here. I could post a lot more "evidence," but as I've told you before, this blog, as much as you'd like it to be, isn't about you.

By the way, you've never answered any of my questions. I guess you've been too busy blogging.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lin wrote:

"See, you have sounded like a liberal to me on this blog with your 'charm' and 'wit'."

You forgot "grace."

New BBC Open Forum said...

And I resent the term "common lurker." I prefer "expert Googler."

ezekiel said...

" I do wonder how the the blog you cut and pasted from and the other one spoke of was discovered, since are both somewhat inconspicuous, in their own way, to the common lurker."

John, go to yahoo and in the search box type..

"jon l. estes" debate

Just like it is above including the quotation marks.

Nothing is inconspicuous if one looks for it these days...

For the record...my problem with the deleted posts and the other blog is two fold.....

When I read the comments from the other folks...and I don't agree with them either.....is that you deleted them....

If you are going to argue a point...defend the faith as it has been suggested....stick with it....deleting is giving ground. You either believe with conviction or you don't....You haven't appeared to lack conviction here....why there?

Deleting one post is one thing....when we have written something that is wrong or too agressive or whatever....deleting them all appears to be that you discovered a fundamental problem with the whole argument....and took it down.

Or.....You did not want someone to see it....That starts a reader down a perilous road of wonder why? Was your position going to cause problems with your deacons...church or was it something bigger such as problems politically within the SBC?

In the spirit of Elija...choose one or the other....and put your heart into it.......Rev 3:16

Jon L. Estes said...

I did a google and yahoo search on my name and got nothing on the first three pages which would lead me to that site.

Lin said...

I did a google and yahoo search on my name and got nothing on the first three pages which would lead me to that site.

8:59 AM, July 21, 2007

Your concern and focus is quite telling

New BBC Open Forum said...

Did you try "Jon L. Estes" AND "paranoid delusional"? Sleep deprivation tends to make some people that way, you know.

ezekiel said...

Jon,

You might want to fix this one as well....

LINK

ezekiel said...

Jon,

Just what are you hiding? You appear to be going to great lengths to cover your tracks....

Reminds me of a cat in a cat box....

imaresistor said...

Let us get down to more serious matters:

Following is one of the most riveting sermons I have seen/heard!Do not miss this one...you can listen or watch, choice is yours.

Bro. Jeff is speaking to a group of deacons at a conference.

God Helps Those Who Cannot Help Themselves by Jeff Noblitt

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

"I did a google and yahoo search on my name and got nothing on the first three pages which would lead me to that site."

Seriously, try...

"jon estes" AND Baptist

I thought this one was ironic.

Lin said...

I found this on http://strangebaptistfire.com/2006/05/01/calvinists-are-passionate-about-evangelism/

"According to my not so scientific study, the passion of Calvinists is firmly rooted in the doctrinal arena. There is very little passion in the heart of a Calvinist for promoting and encouraging evangelism. To say, as John Sneed and **Jon Estes*** have declared, that “Calvinists are passionate about evangelism” is a myth. My study indicates that Calvinists are roughly 5% passionate about evangelism and 63% passionate about doctrine. Until someone can show otherwise, I’m not believing that Calvinists are “passionate” about evangelism. The evidence is pretty clear to me.[3]"

Jon, this sounds like you are a Calvinist? Is that true?


(Does Miss Billie know?)

Junkster said...

oc said...
Junk spent a lot of time and effort sticking up for you and proving a legitimate point favoring you. Now you pick one part of his post that may be interpretated as possibly negative of you and you use it to feel picked on.

oc, thanks for the support. I wasn't bothered by Jon's response -- even though I questioned folks when they said Jon lied, I did also later admit that part of my motivation was that I was suspicious of how he would respond to people's criticisms. I can understand why he wouldn't like that. But I think his response demonstrates that my suspicions are not unfounded.

I do appreciate that you got my back, bro. :)

wherehavetheralpastorsgone said...

Jon a small potato?
yes, I think thats an apt description.

New BBC Open Forum said...

zeke,

Check your mail!

Junkster said...

If I were a pastor, I'd be pleased to be considered a small potato in the sight of man. Maybe even a radish.

Lynn said...

Junkster said...

If I were a pastor, I'd be pleased to be considered a small potato in the sight of man. Maybe even a radish.

4:48 PM, July 21, 2007


Gaines thinks he's one of those County Fair freak vegetables the size of texas and weighs a ton.

Jon L. Estes said...

Lin,

I do not proclaim to be a calvinist, I have not taken the time needed to immerse myself into his teachings to be comfortable enough to put such a label on myself. I have been called a calvinist and would probably be considered one by most people. I have stated, in the past, that what I know about the five points of calvinism (TULIP) I agree with them.

As far as your personal study coming up with 5% of calvinists are evangelistic I don't have a need to argue with that. I don't think the lack of evangelistic efforts have anything to do with calvinism or any other "ism". It is my personal take that the lack of evangelistic zeal and action is representative of ones love for Jesus. If we love Him we will tell others.

It would not surprise me that 5% or less of all active SBCers are evangelisticly (sp?)active.

Many who know me would consider me an active witness for the gospel, I feel it is not so, as I look in the mirror. I pass up way to many opportunities. But that's how I see myself.

If you research the bl.com site deep enough you would find most there find ways not to talk about witnessing. If you bring it up often or share witnessing stories, you will be atacked and labeled a braggart. John Sneed is a great friend, strong calvinist who witnesses often. He is unashamed of the gospel.

Anything else you want to know on this subject?

Jon L. Estes said...

New,

I am on a list of some mighty fine people.

;-)

Lin said...

Estes wrote:

"As far as your personal study coming up with 5% of calvinists are evangelistic I don't have a need to argue with that...."


Jon, it was NOT my study. the whole quote came from the website strange baptist fire that I referenced in the comment. I just copied and pasted it.

Once again...we are not dissecting the entire content of the quote or of that blog. The author of this quote inferred that you are a Calvinist...I was just asking if it was true. It does not matter to me...either way. I just have not met many Calvinists who refer to sin as mistakes. ;O)

Lin said...

"I am on a list of some mighty fine people."

You must own one of Criswell's busts..... Or bought some of his 5 million dollars worth of antiques at the estate sale..... Or perhaps you donate to Patmos Evangelistic Ministries being run out of the presidents mansion at SWBTS... Or perhaps you have lied to a woman professor with a very sick husband and caused her to have to leave her job and health insurance?

Oh yes...fine people, indeed.

oc said...

Junk said:

I do appreciate that you got my back, bro. :)

oc says:
My bro, I have read your posts for months, and know that you are a man of integrity, intelligence and wit. And foremost, I know you love the Lord.

I also know that you don't need my help, and you don't need me to 'get your back'. But I really admire how you will take an unpopular stand, such as with the most recent jon estes debacle.

That being said, when he, instead of acknowledging and thanking you for the valiant effort,(and quite effective too, I must say) chose to take you to task for a portion of your post that was maybe a little less than flattering towards him; well, that was it for me. That told me all I needed to know about him. So with that in mind, I posted what I did.

So Junk, I guess it's not so much that I thought you needed my help as much as I couldn't stand the ungratefulness, or maybe the 'ungracefulness' he showed toward you. I felt his unappreciative attitude shouldn't go unaddressed, especially in light of your efforts to get to the truth.
I never once thought you needed help, because I know you don't.
Junk, you da man.

Just sayin'.

oc.

Jon L. Estes said...

Lin said...

"I am on a list of some mighty fine people."

You must own one of Criswell's busts..... Or bought some of his 5 million dollars worth of antiques at the estate sale..... Or perhaps you donate to Patmos Evangelistic Ministries being run out of the presidents mansion at SWBTS... Orperhaps you have lied to a woman professor with a very sick husband and caused her to have to leave her job and health insurance?

Oh yes...fine people, indeed.

6:31 PM, July 21, 2007


No, I do not own one of the Criswell busts but I am not going to overlook the mass of good he did by a few later year blunders. That goes with Billy Graham also (not on list but he has been dissed here in the past).

No I did not purchase anything from the sale of the belongings. Not my taste or price range.

Have been to his house and did attend the school with his name.

I don't know anything about the Patmos stuff or lied to someone with a sick husband.

Sorry to disappoint you.
Dr. Patterson has also done great good but he is not perfect. Bu I still believe I am listed among some giant men of God.

ezekiel said...

For those around that would think that the Bible is just a guideline....And scripture is what we want to make it...

I suggest a careful read here....Spurgeon really has it going on....

Link

Lin said...

"Dr. Patterson has also done great good but he is not perfect."

Who expects perfect? How about just basic ethics? Or are they just 'mistakes'?

Lynn said...

Tammy Fay Messner passed away today.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

"I don't know anything about the Patmos stuff or lied to someone with a sick husband."

Oh, Jon. Surely with all the blogging you do you've heard the name Sheri Klouda. Think about it!

Still waiting to hear your answers to my earlier questions....

New BBC Open Forum said...

Correction: Tammy Faye passed away yesterday morning (Friday). The family requested it not be announced until today. She was on Larry King Live the day before she died. I didn't see it, but the video is here, and it's unnerving to watch.

Lynn said...

Your right NASS. My apologies. I misheard on the news.

I saw a clip of the Larry King interview. If you look at her now and look at a picture of her 10 years ago.....its shocking. I think they said that her weight was down to 69 pounds!!!

Really sad :(.

socwork said...

Correction: Tammy Faye passed away yesterday morning (Friday). The family requested it not be announced until today. She was on Larry King Live the day before she died. I didn't see it, but the video is here, and it's unnerving to watch.

Oh my, I just saw this news too, and I did see at least part of her interview on Larry King Live and it is very disturbing and sad. I'm not surprised she died so soon - she was so very emaciated.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

"Have been to his house and did attend the school with his name."

Well, I've been to Graceland and attended King College. But I still can't sing.

johnthebaptist said...

Sorry for the long post but I found this sermon outline by Johnny Hunt.

While it can be VERY MUCH applied to SG & staff and deacons....all of which I would suggest reading it, moreover, it is something we ALL should look at and examine ourselves.

Keeping ourselves clean before the Lord will keep us focused on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

So dear friends, lets keep ourselves clean before the Lord so that Jesus is glorified and that we will be fit and ready for service.


May Jesus be glorifed in your lives.

John


Sermon notes by Johnny Hunt

A MAN AND HIS TESTIMONY
Heb. 11:5b; 39a
June 17, 2007
INTRODUCTION: Proverbs 20:7, “The righteous man walks in his integrity; His children are blessed after him.”
The Scriptures say of David, “after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep…”
Acts 13:36
Ecclesiastes 7:1, “A good name is better than precious ointment, And the day of death than the day of one's birth”
In Heb 11, we have what has been referred to as the “roll call of the faithful” Note the words that gave them such testimonies:
1.
Abel - Gave
Hebrews 11:4, “By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.”
2.
Enoch - Pleased
Hebrews 11:5, “By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, ‘and was not found, because God had taken him’; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
3.
Noah - Built
Hebrews 11:7, “By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.”
4.
Abraham - Went
Hebrews 11:8, “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.”
5.
Sarah - Judged 1
Hebrews 11:11, “By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.”
6.
Abraham - Offered
Hebrews 11:17, “By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son”
7.
Isaac - Blessed
Hebrews 11:20, “By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.”
8.
Jacob - Worshiped
Hebrews 11:21, “By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.”
9.
Moses - Suffered, Refused, Looked, Refused
Hebrews 11:24-27, “By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible.”
10. Rahab - Hid (Received)
Hebrews 11:31, “By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.”
“Our greatest value is to reproduce ourselves in the lives of others. When you leave behind a vibrant Christian who knows his calling and his commission, you can be buried but you will live on through all those in whom you have been reproduced.”
Dr. Jerry Falwell.
1933 – 2007
“There is a glaring need for integrity in the ministry in our day. We are facing an integrity crisis. Not only is the conduct of the church in question, but so is the very character of the church.”
W.W. Wiersbe
“A morality crisis exists in the ministry. An integrity crisis faces the servants of God. Immorality has reached a pandemic stage in the evangelical community. The secular media exploits our every failure. The man in the street pokes fun with jokes depicting ministers as interested only in women, money, power, and prestige. The church of God reels in
2
heartbreak, confusion and distrust as once respected leaders are reportedly exposed in sin and shame.”
Daniel Akin
Is there hope for our Dads? Yes, there is hope and help!
I. THE CAUSES OF LOSING YOUR TESTIMONY.
Preliminary Observations:
1.
God wants us to finish well.
Acts 13:25, “And as John was finishing his course, he said, ‘Who do you think I am? I am not He. But behold, there comes One after me, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to loose.’'
2.
We want to finish well.
Acts 20:24, “ But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.”
2 Timothy 4:7, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.”
3. Many don’t - or won’t - finish well.
4. The ones that don’t finish well predominately lose it
in the middle of the game, not in the end of the
game.
Barriers to Ending Well:
1.
Pride.
There is a proper pride in recognizing who you are and operating out of what God’s done for you, but there is also a danger of an inordinate power, a pridefulness.
2.
Abuse of Power.
It happens when leaders operate unjustly or unfairly with people, or because of their position they start taking privileges, or they influence people wrongly.
3
3.
Lack of Integrity with Finances.
This ranges from outright embezzling to using funds that are earmarked for something else, poor accounting, etc.
4.
Family Issues.
All the way from divorce to dysfunctional relationships between husband and wife, or children.
5.
Sexual Snares.
Adultery, pornography, and other sexually-related issues.
6.
Plateauing.
If you’ve been through something intense, it allows you to step back, but over the long-haul, you’ve got to move on, and off the plateau.
II. THE COST OF LOSING YOUR TESTIMONY.
Many times -
1.
The cause of Christ is harmed and the purity of the Gospel veiled.
2.
One’s reputation is permanently soiled and damaged.
3.
There is the certain loss of God’s blessings and the
potential loss of one’s God-given family.
4.
Sin extracts a tremendous toll.
Now, what sin does to a man -
1.
It hounds him.
Ps. 51:3, “My sin is always before me”
2.
It makes you feel dirty.
Ps. 51:7, “Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.”
4
3.
You can’t hear from God.
Psalms 51:8a, “make me hear joy and gladness”
4.
Personal collapse under guilt.
Psalms 51:8b, “that the bones You have broken may rejoice.”
5.
You feel ashamed.
Psalms 51:9, “Hide Your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.”
III. THE CURE FOR A LOST TESTIMONY.
Revelation 2:4-5, “Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place — unless you repent.”
1.
Remember
2.
Repent
3.
Return
Practical Truth:
Read the Proverbs
They are short sayings which express timeless truths and wisdom. They arrest one’s thoughts, causing the reader to reflect on how one might apply divine principles to life situations.
Proverbs 2:10-12, “When wisdom enters your heart,
And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
Discretion will preserve you;
Understanding will keep you,
To deliver you from the way of evil,
From the man who speaks perverse things”
Proverbs contain insights and commands to be obeyed. The two-fold purpose of the Proverbs is:
1.
To produce the skill of godly living by wisdom and instruction; the ability to govern oneself by choice.
2. To develop discernment.
5
If we fail to embrace wisdom, enticement to sin will
win out.
Example:
Proverbs 5:15, “Drink water from your own cistern,
And running water from your own well.”
Cistern and well refer to the wife from whom the husband is to draw all his satisfying refreshment; sexually and affectionally.
Proverbs 10:9, “He who walks with integrity walks securely, but he who perverts his ways will become known.”
Those who have integrity (who live what they believe) exist without fear of some evil being discovered, while those who are perverse and have secret wickedness will not be able to hide.
Proverbs 20:17, “Bread gained by deceit is sweet to a man, but afterward his mouth will be filled with gravel.”
LASTING TRUTHS:
1.
Guard Your Thought Life.
Proverbs 23:7, “For as he thinks in his heart, so is he. ‘Eat and drink’ he says to you,
but his heart is not with you.”
2.
Give Your Best Time to Your Wife and Family.
3.
Recognize Your Own Vulnerability.
The wrong person plus the wrong place plus the wrong time will inevitably equal the wrong thing!
6

Dr. Bill Loney said...

Sorry for my overmedicated ramblings last night. I even read where I said I was fictitious or fictional. What I meant to say was was 'frictional'...whereas I may cause friction. Well, now that's cleared up.

I am been corresponding with my mentor, the world renowned cyberprofessor of Mexico City Community College Medical School, Dr. Nachos Grande. He attends a baptist missionary church in the city there, and was less than thrilled to hear of my president deacon run. He gave me the lowdown and it seems that I may have a few things going against me:

-been married three times, and always on the lookout for the next ex-Ms. Loney
-I'm not doubletongued, but I am double tailed
-I'm not given to much wine, but I do indulge in fermented mackeral smoothies from time to time
-I dont have any children to rule well because of the court injunction from the AMA and State of Tennessee, but I did have a pet monkey in the early 80's who escaped and he may have caused some trouble
-I'm not very grave(honest) either; I have unpaid parking tickets from the Carter administration, and the extension chord running to my neighbors garage for electricity may be a little unethical
-I'm also not proven...though I have proven that one can get by on about a pint of blood, if they need the gas money bad enough
-I also found out I am not blameless...I may be the one the blame for the increase in all the bigfoot sightings of late...HE FOLLOWS ME EVERYWHERE!
-And while I may not be a brawler, I am very often brawled upon.
-And before I could be considered solemn minded I'll probably need to curb the late night shirtless/speedo jogs
-And I guess the deacon president ought to actually attend and be a member of the church that he want to be deaconing at.

I know this may come as quite a shock and be a source of great mourning to many. I too looked forward to:
-OC dressed in Camo heading up security detail
-AOG and Ekekiel walking around in Reformer garb reading from scrolls
-SOTL-relating to the public while ROTFL(seriously, you spend a lot of time doing that, so you may want to come by the office so I can check if you might have an inner ear problem)
Nass- resisting the temptation to take change out of the ashtrays of the cars she parked
Gmom- catering our office parties with whatever sandwich tray Wal-mart had on sale, not threatening to kill people(got that Justice Bratton?)
Socwork- showing us just actually what social work is
Junk- making sarcastic jokes way over the head of callers
Lin- defusing any death threats made toward me(You got that Mike, toward me, not vice-versa Columbo)
Concerned- assigning delightful topics of discussion to those killing time by standing around drinking all my free water
Mom4- picking out only the most distiguished(and golden buckley) leisure suits befitting a president deacon
Cakes- writing letters to my constituents using words as long as my right vestigial tail
JohnTBapt- making loud animal noises in the hallway, then ducking back in the office when people opened their door

O' Fate, why dost thou act a bully, dishing out speedo wedgies to a lowly Loney such as I?

But on a brighter note, didn't yall say I had a car coming? Cause man, it took me 7 hours round trip to go get my back hair corn-rowed today via my landlady's rascal.

Anyway, I guess I am just going to have to settle for being a highly esteemed, well dressed, inhumanly hairy(in a sexy Chewbacca sort of way), questionably credentialed, medical expert...man what a life!!

As always, I am
William T. Loney, MD

johnthebaptist said...

Dr. Loney....
We see nothing in your post that would be held against you in your bid for Deacon President. You are for sure not as "blemished" as the current administration.

Besides, we are sure they are just little bitty "mistakes of the head and not of the heart".

The car is about finished. I have just finished painting your Deaconmobile. Magenta (spray can)and Powder Blue (Wall Paint). The good news...The front of the car is Magenta...the rear is Powder Blue.

If your adoring fans (church members, fellow deacons) crowd around your ride, the finger prints will rub off with a wet rag.

Please reconsider your bid for Deacon President.

I am not worthy of such a fine automobile for myself. As a preacher, I don't need such a "flashy" vehicle unless I end up with a display of my own in the church lobby. Heaven forbid.

Jon L. Estes said...

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

"I don't know anything about the Patmos stuff or lied to someone with a sick husband."

Oh, Jon. Surely with all the blogging you do you've heard the name Sheri Klouda. Think about it!

Still waiting to hear your answers to my earlier questions....

9:54 PM, July 21, 2007


The word "or" should have been nor have I. I know who Dr. Klouda is.

Please let me know which earlier questions you speak of.

Lin said...

"That goes with Billy Graham also (not on list but he has been dissed here in the past)."

How has he been 'dissed'?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jon wrote:

"I know who Dr. Klouda is."

And? What is your opinion of the way that great man of God, Paige Patterson, treated her?

"Please let me know which earlier questions you speak of."

You've been here all along. Go back and read them for yourself if you've forgotten. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

Goodness, Jon reminds me of our old friend, 4545. "Uh, what questions?"

ezekiel said...

Johnthebaptist,

I for one would love to hear you deliver that message!

I think this parallels Your message...

1 Peter 2 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain


1 Peter 2

Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

11Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

12Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Lynn said...

Anyone notice that the sermon that was on Channel 50 this morning is about a year old?

Additionally, Channel 24 pre-empted Bellevue for the British Open.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lynn,

I remember that sermon well! It was delivered the morning of October 8, 2006 and entitled "Relating Biblically to Your Parents." (They've got the wrong title on the video version in the archives, but the audio version is correct.) However, the first one-third of it was about relating to (i.e. obeying) Biblical authority (i.e. Steve). And from that sermon comes a quote I'll never forget:

"All Christians should respect Biblical authority. All Christians should respect Biblical authority. You and I come into a world that has the motto of the bumper sticker we see so frequently that says 'Question Authority.' Question authority.

"A spirit of open rebellion against spiritual authority has been unleashed on the United States of America. It's also rampant even in churches. A spirit of rebellion. And the Bible says rebellion is likened unto the spirit of divination; the King James says witchcraft. That means that rebellion is coming from the ultimate rebel who is Satan himself."


He had a theme going that day because that evening he delivered "The Sin of a Fault-Finding Sprit (sic)." That one was a real rip-snorter.

Then two weeks later, from the p.m. sermon of 10-22-06 comes this:

"Rebellion is like the sin of witchcraft or divination. King James says witchcraft. And insubordination is like iniquity and idolatry because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he rejected you from being king." (I momentarily lost him for a minute here. He skips around in the Bible so much -- I think he had jumped to the OT here.) "I want to tell you something. When somebody has a rebellious spirit toward the will of God... this may sound harsh but it's the truth. They might as well go to their homes, draw a pentagram on their floor, start burning candles, and start worshiping Satan because rebellion (i.e. questioning anything I say or do) against God and God's authority (me) is like witchcraft in God's eyes."

Lynn said...

Ya know NASS....while it was probably self serving back then....that theme sounds much clearer now given all that has gone on since October.

New BBC Open Forum said...

No... actually it sounded the same to me back then. I was sitting there listening to it live, and believe me, I "got it." It sent chills down my spine. That's why I've remembered the date and could practically quote him verbatim. (I did listen to the tape to make sure I quoted him correctly.)

Of course, Ms. Billie and some others would say that's because I felt convicted by his words. Well, I felt convicted all right. Sadly, I felt convicted that Bellevue had a self-appointed king.

New BBC Open Forum said...

...or as he was known in Gardendale, a "benevolent dictator." (I think that's an example of an oxymoron.)

Jon L. Estes said...

FYI - FWIW,

The person linked to; to say I was a calvinist and that I am a champion demonizer is a man who does not believe in the sovereignty of God or the necessity to believe in the resurrection of Christ. So if you want to take his word on anything, enjoy what you get.

Lynn said...

Just an FYI Folks....

Ellendale just called Dr. Jerry Harmon to be their pastor. I've heard a couple of sermons of his and from what I can gather, he is pretty good.

gmommy said...

Theology Question from a church I visited today.....
How is Jesus our big brother??????

The context was either the minister saying this before we all said the Lord's prayer or he said it IN the prayer...but he said ...God the Father,Jesus our "big brother".....
I haven't ever heard Jesus referred to as our big brother.

I even wondered for a minute if he meant like "Big Brother" from the movie 30 years ago with the government watching everything you did??????

Anybody heard this before???

New BBC Open Forum said...

Lynn's link.

:-)

Lynn said...

Thanks NASS :).

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