During a recent meeting of a concerned group of BBC members with David Coombs and three other staff members, one of the things the members stressed was that Steve Gaines does not seem to demonstrate that he has a shepherd's heart nor does he seem to demonstrate love to the members in general.David Coombs asked what the pastor could do to demonstrate love. The members' answer was that there is no magic formula, that love demonstrates itself from a heart filled with the love of God.
So let's help Steve Gaines and David Coombs. What are we looking for in a pastor?
Thanks to "aslansown" for this topic idea.
733 comments:
1 – 200 of 733 Newer› Newest»Hard to really explain....just like you can tell if someone is happy or bitter by their countenance, a pastor's heart is evident in the same way.
A respect for God and God's Word.....
A lack of selfishness and pride.....
Unquestionable integrity.....
That's a start....
What can a pastor do to demonstrate love? Read the following, carefully ... if necessary, pretend you've never seen it before.
------------------
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13, NASB)
--------------------
There's a straightforward (and definitive) checklist of love in action.
Ok, this thread's done ... next topic! :)
Hey Junk, That scripture is for weddings, you silly man! ;o)
Just kidding. Actually, we overlook that scripture BECAUSE it has been targeted for weddings for so long.
Anyway, Junk, that scripture is perfect.
How about this one for a pastor of a mega church:
1My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. 2For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, "You sit here in a good place," while you say to the poor man, "You stand over there," or, "Sit down at my feet," 4have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? 6But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court? 7Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?
8If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well. 9But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
From the book of _____?
A pastor should have a servant's heart. He should be gentle with his sheep - not heavy handed and dictatorial. A true pastor is a shepherd watching over his flock, sensitive to their needs, feeding them the pure Word of God -not beating them up from a bully pulpit. Sheep will follow and stay close to a shepherd who cares for them and with whom they feel secure.
"No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care." - John Maxwell
I could not resist this thread.:-)
Junk: Excellent passage to start with
Let's look at this logically, with the facts we know, how the current BBC leadership stacks up to that passage:
(I realize for some you won't be able to read this because it might be factual and we certainly don't want to confuse you with the facts)
1) Love is patient
Patience for a confessed homosexual pedofile but not for a 15 year old girl?
2)love is kind and is not jealous
Unkind dismissal of JW; jealous of the legacy left by AR?
3) love does not brag and is not arrogant
Gardendale and Union City comments, trophy cases...there are so many examples for this....
4)does not act unbecomingly
Jumping a fence, then lying about it; calling deacons names
5)is not provoked
anger at those who seek answers from the financial records; bitterness towards MS
6) does not take into account a wrong suffered
Remember the list for how many times DG had been "ignored"?
7) does not rejoice in unrighteousness
Gives a gift of $25,000 to a church that supports abortion and homosexuality
8)rejoices with the truth
Will not allow by-laws to be followed, books to be opened, or law to be followed
9) bears all things
even uncomfortable, long business meetings
10)believes all things
even that the honorable legacy of a church should be preserved
11)hopes all things
even that a group of believers can disagree and still be in unity in Christ
12)endures all things
like consequences for own actions
13) When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
'Nuff said on that one.
Just a few thoughts....I'm sure the rest of you can add to this starter list.
Concernedsbcer said,
Hard to really explain....just like you can tell if someone is happy or bitter by their countenance, a pastor's heart is evident in the same way.
A respect for God and God's Word.....
A lack of selfishness and pride.....
Unquestionable integrity.....
That's a start....
oc says: That's it. It's about the heart.
What if the pastor is fat and ugly?
What if the pastor is bald headed,and doesn't have the favored 'evangelist' hair? What if the pastor stutters,and searches for the right words, and sometimes doesn't come up with them?
What if the pastor is humble, and esteems others more highly than himself, and so sometimes comes across as less 'powerful' (arrogant)as some think he should be? What if the pastor gives no regard toward 'class' distinctions, and looks 'poor' and lives 'poor' according to the world's estimate? What if the pastor just loves the Lord and His people and not his status and 'position'?
What if the pastor had nothing but God's calling and a pastor's heart? What if What if What if?
What if the pastor
This sermon is definitely worth listening to:
http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID14201.mp3
(give it time to load)
The True Gospel-Conversion
Paul Washer
oc said...
What if the pastor is fat and ugly?
What if the pastor is bald headed,and doesn't have the favored 'evangelist' hair? What if the pastor stutters,and searches for the right words, and sometimes doesn't come up with them?
What if that describes me but I'm not a pastor?? (Well, not exactly bald-headed, but there's more forehead showing than there used to be...)
I have not posted for a long time, but I could not resist this thread. When Dr. Gaines first came to Bellevue, I could not have been happier. I had always enjoyed his preaching in the past, and I trusted our pastor's search committee to do what they were supposed to - and I prayed. The first time I came face to face with Dr. Gaines, I felt like he would rather be doing anything else than having to talk to me. I passed it off, thinking that it was me, or that he was just tired of meeting people - so many of us, and only one of him, right?!?! The next time I had an opportunity to speak with him, it was even worse. My heart was broken and I felt so embarrassed that I had tried to approach him. I knew then that he did not have a heart for us as individuals. I have never forgotten those encounters, and now, in hindsight, I know that it was not just me.
Junk said,
oc said...
What if the pastor is fat and ugly?
What if the pastor is bald headed,and doesn't have the favored 'evangelist' hair? What if the pastor stutters,and searches for the right words, and sometimes doesn't come up with them?
Junk says:
What if that describes me but I'm not a pastor?? (Well, not exactly bald-headed, but there's more forehead showing than there used to be...)
oc says: Well,Junk,its a long shot for you then, but if you are lucky they will ordain you anyway. Apparently you don't need to be called by God to be a pastor at BBC, just got to be useful in protecting the regime. It works for Coombs.
searching wrote:
"I know that it was not just me."
Believe me, it wasn't just you. My two encounters were exactly the way you described yours. The whole time he was looking over me and around me, as if he was trying to see if anyone more important was waiting in the wings. It was definitely embarrassing.
have met Dr. Gaines 4 times----each time was more than disappointing. At first I was embarrassed for me----by the 4th time I was embarrassed for him.
NASS said,
Believe me, it wasn't just you. My two encounters were exactly the way you described yours. The whole time he was looking over me and around me, as if he was trying to see if anyone more important was waiting in the wings. It was definitely embarrassing.
oc says: Don't take it personal. He was just paranoid that the terroristic 15 year old girl hadn't been handcuffed yet.
These posts tonight are breaking my heart. To have waited as long as you guys did for a new pastor, then to have him act like he did....... I am just so sorry.
After getting to know you all, trust me....it has been HIS loss.
Like Charlie Fox says, "Don't feed the trolls....."
You are right Concernedsbcer, it's not worth it. I'll delete. :)
Qualifications for Pulpit Ministry.
Interesting topic...brings to mind this which was posted some time ago
http://www.baptistreformation.org/documents/untitled.htm
Blessings
Amos
More Lessons in Christianity.
Don't miss the ones on "tithing" and "authority."
Welcome back, Amos!
Unfortunately, that link doesn't work.
Amos!!!! How wonderful to "see" you! You were with us bowling, you know........put your picture on the scoreboard!
Nass: Those links would be hysterical...if they weren't so true.......
maybe this one and click on untitled
http://www.baptistreformation.org/articles.html
The picture...gmommy told me that she wanted to, but I didn't think she would follow through and torture the fellow bloggers with such a mug. By the way, the pic was on Thanksgiving, which would have made it about 85 degrees down here that day.
Hope you all had a good time.
Blessings
Amos
Amos!
Were you waiting for a good topic to visit us?????
AND..you broke your silence!!!
if that link doesn't work...you can get there via AOG's blog, click on baptist reformation
As for your topic, an humble undershepherd may want to insert this on his 'pastor's page', as opposed to a list of personal accomplishments and 'how many people I baptized'.
Philippians 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 ¶ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death
blessings
Amos
gmommy,
as you know, 'silent' may not be an apt description concerning me...but in this case, it is a great topic and warranted such.
hope and pray all is well.
Psalm 118:14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.
15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.
16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.
Blessings
Amos
Ecclesiastes 12:9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
lindon,
From the book of _____?
James, chapter 2.
A wise, "saved-hippy"-turned-minister once told me (long after he'd cut his hair and grown in the faith):
"If your ministry ever gets bigger than the next person you meet... It's too big."
1) Jesus
2) Others
3) You
= JOY
Phil. 2:3 "Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself."
PS: People can usually sense when humility is real and when it is a show... jmo
The hippie preacher said that person you describe uses the name WHY
Radio Interview on Christian Radio station WVCY America ..
Occult expert Caryl Matrisciana is interviewed about th eintegration of new age centerring and luciferic alterred states of consciousness being peddled devilishly by integrating Scriptural terminology as a cloak for rank occult mysticism.
You wont want to miss this radio interview with this very special guest.
devil enters the church through new age practices wrapped up as Christian
gmommy,
My best to you and yours... Like Piglet, concernedsbcer, and others who post here, you are appreciated.
You have mail via the first of two email addresses that appeared on a note to me...
junk99male said...
What can a pastor do to demonstrate love? Read the following, carefully ... if necessary, pretend you've never seen it before.
------------------
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13, NASB)
I missed the part where scripture teaches us that this is for pastors only. Where are the context cops when you need one?
Seriously, I think it would be best if all of us who make comment here live by the same creed.
Steve Gaines is a Speaker not a Pastor.
First a pastor should understand that his calling is a position of humility, not an autocratic king/ceo. Neither is he a doormat. His first love should be the Lord Jesus Christ, and in turn love for His sheep. He proves his love for Christ and his sheep by feeding them from the Fountainhead of all truth, God's holy Word. His preaching should be Jesus Christ and Him crucified according to the Scriptures. He should be accessible, as he is charged with the care of the souls of the flock. He should have a good understanding of what the church is and how it should function according to the Biblical mandate. His goal should be to glorify the Lord Jesus and his heart should desire to see the people grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ and be more and more conformed to His image. He should understand church discipline and how it should be administered, as well as when it is needed. It is an act of love for Christ, His church, and the one in need of discipline. He should be apt to teach, rightly dividing the Word of Truth, preaching the Word in season and out of season, handles his household well, temperate, not self-seeking, humble in attitude, but speaking the truth in love, boldly and without apology. Just a few thoughts here. I had the privilege of sitting and talking to such a pastor recently...very refreshing.
The one and only time I met SG up close, his eyes were so cold and empty, it gave me the creeps - shivers down my spine.
People can usually sense when humility is real and when it is a show... jmo
Absolutely. People generally have good radars about such things. (Of course, there are always exceptions... )
Let me start by identifying myself as an SBC pastor in Kentucky who's admittedly been following your unfolding drama for the better part of a year. I previously served in Alabama, knowing of Dr. Gaines but never truly knowing him. My comments here, therefore, need to be understood as not addressing his strengths or shortcomings but simply as answering the question.
In my experience a God-called pastor can best be judged by who he is more so than what he does or is able to do. Don't misunderstand, for the practical workings of pastoral ministry are governed by Scripture and include areas such as proclamation, visitation, and administration. These areas demand the man of God's faithfulness, efficiency, and competence, to be sure. But it's from who he is that the Christ-centered love about which you speak makes itself known in what he does. In other words, give me a man who genuinely loves Christ and is humbly surrendered to loving others more than he loves himself and I'll show you a man who can leave a true legacy regardless of his pulpit skills or charisma, and regardless of the size of the church he pastors.
As a side note, no pastor can truly love the people he serves without humility. Humility is the prerequisite to "agape" love. Think about how vital humility is to God-love: if Christ had not humility, He could not have willingly given Himself on the Cross, to say nothing of even coming in the appearance of a man at all. If humility was essential to Christ fulfilling His mission of love, how essential is humility to the pastor fulfilling His mission of love? Mark this down: that's precisely what our mission is. It will be God-love that drives every word preached, every witness offered, every comfort given, every vision cast, and even every paper pushed. This may be the era of professional pastors who are more CEOs than shepherds, but none of that for me, thank you. If I'm to stand before Christ and hear anything, I'd rather hear, "Well done, you were a lover of My soul and humbly a lover of theirs," than, "What an impressive executive you were, but..."
Thank you, Mr. Eldridge. You just need to make your profile visible.
good post Michael Eldridge!
Thank you Michael Eldridge. My former pastor, now gone to be with the Lord, was just as you said. He loved Jesus with all his heart and so consequently loved each of us. He could not be called a dynamic preacher but his heart was always so pure, God spoke through Him always. Our church was about 400 members, but I am certain he heard those treasured words, "Well done, my good and faithful servant."
Thank you Pastor Eldridge for that word. So many (of the church's leadership)who want to explain this away say that what BBC is experiencing is only from a change in leadership. They are deceiving themselves if they think that is all this is about. This is about integrity, truthfulness,and adhering to Scripture in the church. When Dr. Gaines came, we were not looking for another Dr. Rogers (who, by the way, always had a minute to stop and talk, shake a hand, hug a neck or pray with us), but we sincerely wanted to love our new pastor and follow his leadership. Sadly, it seems that the only ones he wanted to love back have no stomach to lovingly confront. It has broken my heart to know that they don't care if we leave or not. It never dawned on us that he would not know how to follow the Word when tested - "uncharted waters"?!?! Oh my goodness!
Well, I've been gone a few days and really missed y'all. At first I thought this thread was sarcastically tongue in cheek, but I realized that David Coombs was serious in his quest to find out how to demonstrate love to members. Mr. Coombs, if you have to ask that, why are you an ordained minister? You cannot be serious, but apparantly you are.
How to show love to a new congregation:
Don't "culture crash" - don't tell your old congregation that you're going to "fix" things that are wrong at your new church.
Don't climb fences that have "no tresspassing" signs on them - don't care if you're going to "reconcile with a brother". Don't climb it - end of story.
Don't lie about dreams.
Don't give money to an apostate church that was fully covered by insurance.
Don't keep a record of wrongs supposedly done to your wife by another minister.
Don't use "direct bill" church accounts for your personal use.
Don't allow your minister of music to berate the congregation during a service for "not worshipping".
Don't hire your daughter's boyfriend to do nothing, but play during I2 - hey, since I2 in on hiatus for the summer, does Ryan Wingo still get a paycheck?
Don't allow your wife to take 8th grade girls on a toilet papering mission then get ticked off enough when it happens to you to spend the night at your in laws house.
Don't allow your in laws to vote in church meetings.
Don't let a sexual predator remain on staff for an additional six mintues, let alone six months.
Don't apologize to the congregation with "if I offended you" - a little humility would have gone a long way.
I guess that's a good start for now.
karen
Brother Eldridge,
Your comments made me think of this:
1 Corinthians 2
1And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling.."
Off topic, but interesting to note - saw a commercial yesterday for the Starlight Spectacular saying they've added Natalie Grant to perform. That's sudden, isn't it? Not complaining, but just interesting to note.
karen
Michael Eldridge said:
In other words, give me a man who genuinely loves Christ and is humbly surrendered to loving others more than he loves himself and I'll show you a man who can leave a true legacy regardless of his pulpit skills or charisma, and regardless of the size of the church he pastors.
Amy says,
My church needs a senior pastor. I will hunt you down!
Karen,
A good start, indeed.
"Don't allow your wife to take 8th grade girls on a toilet papering mission then get ticked off enough when it happens to you to spend the night at your in laws house."
Heard the first part; haven't heard the second. Enlighten us, please.
"Don't allow your in laws to vote in church meetings."
I would add to that, "...if they aren't members of your church." Nothing wrong with them voting had they been members, but they weren't.
Apparantly when the Gaines house was retaliated against for the toilet papering caper wrought by Mrs. Gaines, Steve got so angry that he stormed out of their house and went to the Dodds for the night. The next morning, he was cooking pancakes as if nothing had happened. Keep in mind this incident was witnessed by 8th grade girls staying with the Gaines's during a DiscipleNow weekend. I have an eyewitness account from an 8th grader's mother - this is not fabrication or slander; this happened - fact!
And yes, anyone's inlaws can vote if they are a member of Bellevue. I got overly excited and left that part out.
Amy: Did you read the previous thread concerning a specific interim?
25+ and john the baptist
reminded us that there are MANY humble,CALLED, servant, sheperd pastors out there.......
put Michael Eldridge on the list!!!!!
another one ,
our own "Amos"....has a job and pastors...no country club memberships.
Refreshing!!
Concerned,
Yes I did. I am just sick about it. I feel like we had really come along as a congregation. We were a pretty wounded bunch after Sam and Co. left. Mike Spradlin as well as the other new staff have been wonderful, and we love all the new members that have worshiping with us. This is two steps back.
How can we ever trust somone when there are surprises at every turn. Bob Sorrell said he looked into the allegations against Claude Thomas' and they were unfounded.
I still thnk we(congregation) were obligated to know those things when we are paying the guy. He may have very moving testimony about what he did, repenting, forgiveness, making attributions etc... But we deserved to know that on the front end.
I sort of think if you have to tell them, they don't have it.
Why would the sheep have to tell the shepherd how to care/protect them?
Like I said before, being a Pastor, like being a Christian, isn't something you do....it is who are. It is interwoven into the very fabric of our lives.
God gives his shepherds a shepherds heart.
If you don't have it, do something else but for pete's sake, don't keep beating the sheep and watch them scatter..then ask... Where did they go? What did I do wrong?
If you really need help, read the Bible. God's handy instruction manual.
Karen,
Just catching up. What is this about Donna Gaines, 8th graders and a toilet papering caper?
Did she take part in this? Please tell us more, I haven't heard about this and I'm sure many others haven't either.
Amy: Please email me.
Thanks!
:)
new bbc open forum, check to see if my profile is now visible. Hopefully you'll see everything you wanted except my credit card information! If for any reason my profile settings are still inadequate I'll be happy to further adjust them.
Everyone, I need you to know what a struggle it was for me to provide my earlier post. I stand by the convictions God has given me on these matters, yet I do not want to be unduly involved in your situation. For now I will continue to interact as is appopriate, praying for all of you always.
Thank you for what encouragement you've provided. Lin, I too love 1 Corinthians 2:1-3, though I prefer the NASB rendering of verse 2, "I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." The idea of having a mind and heart determined--resolutely focused--on Christ should be fuel for our fires. May they be starting now.
Sheepless,
Email me! :)
Michael,
Thank you for your kind words to the people here. Just hearing the right things from a person with a pastor's heart (like you!) does us so much good. I understand your unwillingness to get unduly involved with our situation. I think most pastors feel that way and I think that's why we are in the situation we're in. Nobody wants to say anything, but if not you, then who do we go to? I know God is in charge of all, but He's placed ministers down here to guide. If that means guide other pastor's if they get out of line, then so be it. What do you have to lose by trying to help? Please know I'm not "on you" about this situation at all. I truly would like to know who we as members who are hurting go to when no one in the current church leadership is willing to go up against the Senior Pastor?
karen
Michael: As pastor of an SBC church, do you see a concern within the SBC relating to any of the headline allegations towards SBC pastors and churchs....not just at BBC?
I have been concerned at the lack of leadership within the SBC to somehow keep these rogue pastors under control. It seems to me that the entire SBC and it's reputation is being adversly affected.
I know you want to be careful what you say, and you can email me directly if you wish, but I would be interested to know your take on the situation. If you've been lurking for a while on this blog, you have followed not only the developments at BBC but the growing concern of CGM, PDL, etc. expressed here.
Thanks for any light you might be able to shed. People are jumping ship fast and furious and I've been wondering about the future of the SBC.
concerned,
We're sharing the same brain wave again! :)
LOL.....I noticed that!!!
:) I'm glad to share brain waves with you, Karen!
I've already received email from a reader unhappy with the fact that I posted earlier, so I have chosen to remove my personal contact information from visibility, this to protect my ability to remain above reproach and not inappropriately involved. Such was not my intention at all. My profile should still be visible, though.
Mr. Eldridge,
Thank you. Your profile is now visible. In fact, you provided more information than necessary! All you need to make visible is your profile. You don't have to include your e-mail address or any personal information.
Amy said....
How can we ever trust somone when there are surprises at every turn. Bob Sorrell said he looked into the allegations against Claude Thomas' and they were unfounded.
Reply: This is very troubling to me. If you have an audit and the the auditing company said that the preacher did certain things and they have the receipts or evidence to prove it, do you think he might be just a tad bit guilty???
I find it odd that Bob Sorrell who is personal friends with this guy, and runs a consulting business for churches, looks into it and says that the alligations are unfounded. Hummmmmm....I wonder what Bob was not looking at to come to that conclusion? If you look at the report, it shows what the pastor did and yet Bob didn't see anything wrong with it?? And he is consulting churches, which by the way are some of the ones having problems.
Something smells in Gtown.
Michael: Please be aware we have some posters who live to lurk and post and cause whatever trouble they can. The tend to speak with forked tongue and lack the ability to look at facts in a logical way. I'm sorry you got an unkind email.
:(
If you want to answer my question off the blog, my email is visible.
JTB: I thought the EXACT same thing. The report is the official report, with facts and proof. There is no misunderstanding about his personal expenditures. I can't quite understand this turn of events.....another mistake of the mind?
FYI,
The billboards are addressed in The Messenger on bellevue.org in case you are interested. It doesn't address the fact that one of the scripture references is incorrect.
karen
Mr.Eldridge, what general area of Kentucky are you from?
I will be up there this weekend to visit some of my wifes relatives. They are around the Mt. Vernon area.
If you don't want to tell, that is ok. Just wondering.
Michael,
Welcome to "the club"! :) It's unfortunate that people have to send you nasty emails, but it's par for the course when you step on toes in the name of Truth! Thanks for "taking one for the team!"
karen
To be fair, what I received was not nasty but was anonymous. I'm not being judgmental of his or her perspective, but would rather receive no further messages like it.
gmommy,
You have mail via the first of two email addresses that appeared on a note to me...
In Context:
Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
Proverbs 3:2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
Proverbs 3:3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
Proverbs 3:4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Proverbs 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
WHY
by Avril Lavigne
Why, do you always do this to me? ...
How come, you act like this?
Like you just don't care at all...
Why?
This pastor gets my vote!! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Monday, June 25, 2007
Church Politics Send Woman to Jail
Last Sunday, Karolyn Caskey decided that since she just returned to town from her extended winter stay in Florida, she should attend church. She put on her Sunday best and arrived in time for Sunday services at Allen Baptist church in Allen, Michigan, a church she has been attending since 1959. But on Sunday, June 17, Karolyn Caskey became the victim of church politics.
As Mrs. Caskey told me in a recent phone conversation, the problem revolves around the hiring of a new minister for the independent Baptist church. After hiring the new minister, Pastor Jason Burrick, the church members noticed some immediate and troubling changes. “One of the first things he did was do away with all of the deacons and the officers of the church”, Caskey explained. She also shared that the business meetings of the church, once a place to fellowship and share ideas for the church, had become a dictatorship where no ideas were welcomed and silence was the rule. Pastor Burrick, whose Allen Baptist church job was his first, began to rule the church with an “iron fist” and consequently, “drove away members to neighboring churches in the area”.
After a heated argument with the remaining deacons, Pastor Burrick took control of the church accounts and book keeping. For Caskey, this was the final straw. She sought legal advice to determine what she could do protect her church. It was at this time that Mrs. Caskey was told, “This is against the church and church matters should be kept within the church.” After receiving a registered letter in December, forwarded to her winter-home in Florida, she was ordered to a church disciplinary meeting on December 27th. According to Mrs. Caskey, she contacted her lawyer and asked her to represent her in the meeting at the church. The meeting was not held, and through friends in the small town of Allen, Caskey was told that “they were going to try and dismiss me from the church.”
Having just returned from Florida in mid-June, Mrs. Caskey returned to church on the 17th of June and was approached by a deacon who asked her to step outside the church. According to Karolyn, “the deacon then asked me to please leave the church and told me I was not welcome here anymore”. When Caskey demanded to no why, the police were called and Karolyn Caskey was subsequently arrested for trespassing at the request of Pastor Jason Burrick.
According to Sheriff Larry Burchardt of the Hillsdale County Sheriff’s Office, Mrs. Caskey was arrested for trespassing as she refused an order to leave the church by church officials and a police officer. In a phone conversation with Burchardt, he told me, “The fact is, this was private property, and if someone in charge of private property asks you to leave, it is breaking the law not to do so.”
After a trip to jail in handcuffs, the 71-year-old Caskey says she was ultimately released after paying a $62 fine. Caskey, still shocked by the events of Sunday, June 17th said, “It’s a good thing I did not put that into the offering plate or I couldn’t have gotten out of jail!”
Multiple telephone calls to Pastor Jason Burrick and deacons of the Allen Baptist went unreturned. Karolyn Caskey has a court date on June 26.
Sounds like Karolyn Caskey and a certain 15-year-old girl have a lot in common.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Sounds like Karolyn Caskey and a certain 15-year-old girl have a lot in common.
REPLY:
They wear the same kind of "BRACELETS"!!!!!
I apologize for that long post.
Piglet, Concerned and Charlie have mail!
Hey Amy, Hey Sheepless!
amy,
Back at cha.
Hey Charlie, Hey Junk!
Yo,oc.
Amy has mail!
Charlie....just like a 15 year old, that 71 year old was sure a danger to the church, wasn't she?
What in the world is going on??? The church was the PASTOR'S private property? As a member, wasn't she "part owner" of that church?
Hi, Oc
Hi, Junk! And everyone else, too.
If you guys start saying "Good night John boy" I'm going to wonder if the trollitis has gotten to you!
Goodnight, Junk Boy!
Hey Concernedsbcer! Hey NASS!
amy
Just checked in...I don't see my mail...:(
Why is Junk talking to himself?
I don't know.....but he's offline now.......they said night!
;)
(Piglet humming while waiting on mail....)
Piglet!
ROFL!!! He is talking to himself isn't he!!! This is too much!
Yeah, Junk is talking to himself, but no one is talking to me.
What's up with that?
Ima!! Where have you been, our friend? We've missed you!
Hello, Ima!!
Little slow tonight. There must be something on television...just me and concernedsbcer ....
Oh, sorry OC! Didn't "see" you there! :)
Ima, guess you and Karolyn Caskey have something in common....
Piglet said...
Hello, Ima!!
Little slow tonight. There must be something on television...just me and concernedsbcer ....
10:25 PM, June 28, 2007
I'm here! Been busy with homework and my conspiracy theories about the Chris Benoit situation.
From Dec. 31
I love my church said...
Is there another serious "moral failure" among our leaders that is known, but not being dealt with?
What would be the fallout of dealing with another "moral failure" at the highest levels?
Why would men who pay lip-service to biblical standards, and supposedly believe in them, suddenly forget everything BBC has stood for since 1903? Is it because those standards indict them? Is this why the PW situation has been handled the way it has?
The facts are not always as they seem. Wake up, Bellevue!
Hi Concerned!
Thanks...nice to know somebody misses me! Y'all are great...
And I have been right here...just lurking.
Thank you Piglet, I was starting to get some kind of complex. Good to know I'm not invisible. :)
Ima: Thanks for hanging in there with us.
:)
Hi Piglet!
If there is something on tv, I have missed it. Just re-runs! Same ole same ole.
You said, "Ima, guess you and Karolyn Caskey have something in common...."
Reply: Surely looks that way to me! Hard to keep a good ole' girl down isn't it! Like Judge Judy says, "Don't xee on my leg and tell me it's raining!" :)
Hello, Lynn.
Just searching the archives for thought provoking posts...
Truth or Lie? said...
The church is made up of the body of believers and Steve Gaines and his Elders Smith, Tucker, Arnold Jr., Caldwell, Miller, and Taylor treat the church body like they only need to know the things they want them to know.
If a husband told his wife it was none of her business on matters of money and told her she didn't have any say-so in the household decisions, I'd say it wouldn't be much of a marriage.
I wonder how many men in Bellevue treat their wives they way they treat the congregation?
I believe any man who treats the congregation like this is does not love the church and is very hate filled
9:59 PM, March 29, 2007
***********************************A little commentary on what a pastor should NOT be..
all2jesus said...
Evangelist Rick Ousley withdraws from speaking circuit after affair
Note that:
1. Ousley only ceased, confessed and "repented" after being outted.
2. He'll be back. Ousley doesn't consider sexual immorality, even long-term, a disqualification from ministry.
3. Neither does his organization's board of directors, hence their reevaluation in 60-90 days.
Sound familiar?
***********************************More about what a pastor is NOT...
The SBC is not the SBC that I've known of thats for sure. It seems the SBC is mimmicking the world and allowing liberalism to seep in. This liberalism has festered and has resulted in pastors like Gaines who has no regard for the flock.
Remember this law...Liberalism always results in the exact opposite of its stated intent.
BTW, Piglet, tell your husband Lee Chandler said hi :).
trucker said...
45
Is it in the character of Christ to lie? Do believe that our Lord anoints a man who lies to the Lords flock and hides molesters in the Lords ministry?Is this an example of christ like behavoir?
Do you want your children to imitate SG? Do you aspire to be more like SG since he is your spiritial leader? I doubt that you will answer these questions,since you have a history of avoiding questions,but you may want to consider these and think about your behavoir on this blog.
9:08 PM, March 31, 2007
***********************************
Wonder if trucker is lurking any these days...
Hey Piglet!
There was a song on the radio last night I hadn't heard in years and it made me think of you. Click the play button on the first item here.
Lynn
Thanks, I'll tell him......
Tim said...
Group,
I would like to offer a brief synopsis of what has happened on this blog since the beginning.
A couple of acronyms will help to shorten the process. As well I will speak in generalities to keep from boring to tears those that have already seen it.
US …(U)nited (S)ervants
THEM…(T)rusting (H)is ..Gaines
not God (E)very (M)ove
US: Statement of Truth
Them: Lies, Slander, Gossip
US: Proof of Truth
Them: That never happened
US: Irrefutable Proof of Truth
Them: Ok, that happened, but
we knew that and so what.
US: Revealing Truth of Biblical
Principles To Refute So What
Them: Umm. There is a logical
and reasonable explanation.
Let the committee work.
Them: Ok the logical and
reasonable explanation is…
US: Error in The Logical
Reasonable Explanation
Them: ok..just a minute there is
is a logical and reasonable
explanation that the logical and
reasonable explanation is
flawed. Let the committee work.
Them: Lies, Slander, Gossip
ME: Baaaaaa loooonnneyy!
The truth, the whole truth is not an ever moving target.
For those that may have some confusion over what the battle at Bellevue is really about. I would like to offer this.
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
I should not have to remind anyone, but will that the above passage has heavenly meaning, earthly meaning, personal meaning, spiritual meaning and congregational meaning. I wanted to dispel the arguments before they were begun.
10:57 AM, November 18, 2006
***********************************
Hmmmm...this was BEFORE the pedophile cover-up came out, too.
Regarding Trucker's 3/31 comment to 45:
Could it be that 45 fits into the category of " a little molestation never hurt anyone"?????
He sure doesn't seem to be offended by SG's actions regarding PW. Just more a shrug of the shoulders and then points his little bony finger at us and chastizes us for criticizing his hero.
I guess I should be thankful that I am not so blinded by my own personal gain that I could overlook the safety of thousands of children.
Repost:
I [still] have a dream...
That a time will come at Bellevue when sin will be treated as sin...
That a time will come at Bellevue when the pastor will have time to answer questions from the congregation in a real business meeting instead of having self-serving informational meetings...
That a time will come at Bellevue when the pastor will be accountable to the congregation...
That a time will come at Bellevue when there will be a new set of bylaws that will provide checks and balances on the power of the pastor's office, will treat the office of deacon scripturally, and will address the concerns of power plays among members of the laity...
That a time will come at Bellevue when ministers who serve the church will be dealt with scripturally when they sin in a disqualifying way...
That a time will come at Bellevue when ministers who serve the church well for years will be able to speak freely from the heart with joy about their years at Bellevue without having to sign non-disclosure statements...
That a time will come at Bellevue when many of the discerning christians who have left will return to help with Bellevue's restoration...
That a time will come at Bellevue when the elderly among the membership will be able to sing the hymns that they know and love and not be made to feel as though their church has disappeared over night...
That a time will come at Bellevue when the standing ovations for performances will cease and a chorus of "amens" will ring out in worship directed to God alone...
That a time will come at Bellevue when the giving of staff and membership will be an undistracted act of worship without any concern that the pastor will be making a list and checking it twice...
That a time will come at Bellevue when "We are one in the bond of love..." will be sung from the heart by all present with beaming faces...
That a time will come at Bellevue when the heaviness of this day will be lifted and this time of contention will be a distant memory...
12:10 AM, December 19, 2006
Here are a few important changes that would help restore the trust of many members [and perhaps some ex-members] during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. Due to concern for potential abuse, no church credit cards.
4. An admission that the pastor should never have suggested and/or recommended that $25k be given to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on trips and no overcharging of members.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Immediate removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
8. Compliance with the laws of Tennessee—within the specified time for compliance as outlined by statute--with regard to requests from membership for information, such as: membership list, financial records, current bylaws, business meeting minutes, and finance committee meeting minutes.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of non-elected "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those that are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, BBC's former leadership taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. BBC's former leadership taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
11. A new policy should be drafted that would govern the formation of future pastor search committees according to traditional Baptist polity. Qualifications for service should be given (in part to avoid potential future conflicts of interest) and future committee members should be nominated and approved by the whole congregation.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
All2Jesus: I love that song!!!
25+
Oh thank you for reposting that for me!! Now I don't have to find it! :)
25+: I am SO glad you reposted that. It was true 7+ months ago when I joined this rag-tag group of truthseekers, and it's still just as true now. Thank you for your steadfastness.
concernedSBCer said...
All2Jesus: I love that song!!!
It's a good one. Heard it before?
All2Jesus
Thanks for the song!!!!
I'll listen again after I get my jammies on.
It's such a shame that my boys think they've outgrown Pooh!!
All2Jesus: Yes, I have, but not in a long time. My whole family are Pooh fanatics, so I loved it when it came out.
Thanks!
:)
Piglet: One never outgrows Pooh!
Why is angry and sad - he needs to listen to the song, too.....
Every time we went to Disneyworld I bought a Pooh coffee cup - usually with a picture of ME on it...
I also have a Pooh watch and a Piglet watch....
Good grief, whyne. I haven't read anything here today that could be remotely considered hateful. That is unless an earnest desire for truth, transparency and pastoral love for the sheep is hateful.
Why is so full of hate, anger.
He quotes scripture and doesn't apply it to itself...just like his mentor.
Why are you hiding why???
You will be exposed!
Ed_T said...
Has anybody thought about this: according to almost any study you find, in a BBC church service every Sunday morning, there are somewhere around 500-600 people who have suffered or are suffering some type of sexual abuse, if we go with the general statistic of 1 in 4 women. What do you think those people were feeling that morning as they heard their pastor state his case for protecting a sexual predator like the ones that preyed on them?
It breaks my heart to think of it, but in the 10 years we spent teaching 3rd graders, it's almost a certainty that some of those kids were being abused that were showing up in our class each Sunday.
Would I have been fit to teach if I had ignored such actions if I had ever discovered them? If I had stayed silent for 6 months, 6 weeks, 6 years, does it make it OK to just say, "I'm sorry, I talked to the parent and he/she said it was just a one-time thing. I showed them grace and compassion and never reported it." I think not, but apparently Ace, Brad Jobe and some others wouldn't have a problem with it, at least nothing I couldn't get out of by saying, "Oops! I'm sorry. It was a mistake of the head, not the heart."
8:00 PM, December 30, 2006
This was fairly recent, but since we're talking about pastoral qualities, I felt it worth a repost:
all2jesus said...
Gaines supporters have often pointed to the discontentment and split that occurred following the arrival of Dr. Ramsey Pollard. Since that eventually blew over, they assume the current difficulties will as well. They prefer to see no difference.
However, in contrast to the present situation, the squabbles in 1960 were largely over matters of style, such as Dr. Pollard not wearing white suits like his predecessor, the inimitable Dr. Lee. It is important to note that Dr. Pollard's integrity was never called into question and he was never caught in a lie.
And he did not believe it was necessary to "take out the trash" before he could begin his ministry properly. While doing some research in the Bellevue library, a dear brother recently discovered what Dr. Pollard had to say about the dissenters of his day. Listen to these tender words from a true pastor:
"They are valuable people - they are ours - they are a part of our family and we must love them enough to go after them."
(The Bellevue Messenger, 4-29-1960)
9:46 PM, June 21, 2007
That edt post was for you SOTL.
WHY shows up around this time every evening so I can give him a goodnight smooch on his angry fuzzy head.
Poor Why. :(
24+,
I love that dream!!!!!
Why needs some chocolate:)
Why, Don't you read the BBC billboards?
I will go first-
I love you. I really do. One thing I really appreciate about you is that you do not come on here and twist scripture.
Anonymous said...
Interesting blog sight from Gardendale:
http://www.al.com/forums/gardendale/index.ssf
Here are a few comments about Steve Gaines from Gardendale, AL:
For one we allowed him to tkae over and gave him ultimate authority. That is not biblical. He treated godly men we loved like dirt and we did not stand up to him and hold him accountable. He changed our services to be seeker-sensitive. I applauded at the time. Now I see it as a violation of the Bible. We had no transparency and no openness. No one could challenge or question him, just like at Bellevue. He damanded absolute loyalty and conformity and he got it. We were stupdid to allow it. Some of us were deceived into believing it was the right thing because our attendance was up. He bragged about the baptisms and the giving. The Bible says God gives the increase, not the pastor and not any of the rest of us. I knew better and foolishly went along because on the surface it looked like we had success.
Those are just a few thoughts.
------------------------------
I am stunned Steve admitted he knew he had a child molester on staff for six months. He fires people for anything but not this? Something is not right about this story. Was this molester blackmailing Steve? It has to be something like that or he would never keep him on staff. Either that or he has become a lot more toleraant since he moved to Memphis.
------------------------------
The matters in Memphis should be of great concern to all who are of faith. Especially those of GFBC. Because of the events in Memphis, GFBC will also be dragged into the spotlight. The events have been put out on a public forum for ALL to see. As a member of GFBC I think I would want to know what is going on so that when someoone asks how I can defend the actions of other Christians then I'll know how to respond. To bury my head in the sand and say "it doesn't concern me" would be to say "I don't care".
There are those who don't believe and will use these events to further their cause. BBC is a mega church in the SBC, just as GFBC is. Both have an impact on the shape of the SBC.
Would you pray for them? Not if you're not concerned. Not if it's none of you're business.
------------------------------
Bellevue has been the most important church in the Southern Baptist Convention for 60 years since the days of R.G. Lee. Steve himself told me Bellevue is the "cornerstone church" for Southern Baptists. I believe what happens at Bellevue should concern all Southern Baptists everywhere.
------------------------------
I've been following the situation in Memphis and have learned a lot about church doctrine, Matthew 18, transparency in church leadership, church bylaws, Warrenism and other various items.
I stated earlier, "a smart man learns from his mistakes, but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others."
----------------------------
to catch on to Gaines. The people in Memphis were led by Adrian Rogers and most of them were paying attention to his leadership. The more I read the more convicted I am that GFBC has made serious mistakes.
1:20 PM, December 19, 2006
***********************************
Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
piglet said....
"I'm sorry, I talked to the parent and he/she said it was just a one-time thing. I showed them grace and compassion and never reported it." I think not, but apparently Ace, Brad Jobe and some others wouldn't have a problem with it, at least nothing I couldn't get out of by saying, "Oops! I'm sorry. It was a mistake of the head, not the heart."
Reply: I just grieves me to no end to think of a little child getting abused of some sort. To me, the people who condone abuse are just as guilty as the abuser.
I wonder if their view would be the same if it happened to their child...or them?
May God have mercy on them...unlike the lack of mercy show to the little children.
all2Jesus...
Listen to these tender words from a true pastor:
[R. Pollard of dissenters] "They are valuable people - they are ours - they are a part of our family and we must love them enough to go after them."
(The Bellevue Messenger, 4-29-1960)
Response:
Excellent post. I read it the first time. It is still just as potent. Just as Junk99male posted (3rd entry this string)... love is the missing ingredient... real love (words with matching action)--not just words. jmo
Nass,
May be nice to leave Why's post since it is so uplifting and shows the depth of his heart. :)
Karen...thanks for your sweet call today!!! The P.S. has arrived safely.
Great word verification and I couldn't resist using it: hoomgaai
I think Watusi warriors yell that as they run you through with a spear...
johnthebaptist,
those that COVER for the sexual predator and show GRACE to the criminal and not the victims are just as GUILTY!!!!
Why would a Christian NOT BE repulsed by this sin against the innocent?
And by those that cover and rationalize?
WHERE IS THE GRACE and compassion
for the victims?
why,
I used to be angered by your assaults on these people I love, but now I just feel sorry for you. I have searched and searched this thread, and I don't see hate anywhere. You are inventing hate where none exists. So whose servant are you anyway? I am having a hard time believing that you are wanting truth, when you have proven, more than once, that you are the one filled with hate.
It seems, unwittingly on your part, that you are the victim of your own message and it is so as it should be....condemned your own words,
YOU will be held accountable.
Hey!! Lily Pad has been absent a few days!!
gmommy wrote:
"May be nice to leave Why's post since it is so uplifting and shows the depth of his heart. :)"
Sorry, I already deleted it. It's just reflex now. I could repost it, but since he's already tried to post the identical comment 10 or 11 times today (I'm not exaggerating), I'm sure everyone saw what he said.
In case you missed it however, here are some excerpts...
" ...another thread full of hate."
"Your hate and anger and flesh have taken over."
"YOU will be held accountable."
"Blah, blah, blah.... "
"Whyne," sweetheart, you need to take your medicine and go take a nice, long nap! You seem very stressed out. That's not a good thing, you know?
If you want a blessing, read the November 15, 2006 thread on memories of Dr. Rogers. NASS will be glad I didn't paste the whole thing here!
Dr. Rogers was gifted as few men are - but there were some traits he exhibited that should be true of all pastors.
He was humble, yet bold when it came to proclaiming truth. He was never hesitant to preach God's word for fear of running somebody off, but he did it in love and always with scripture in context.
He loved us. His love for Jesus and others showed in his countenance and in his actions.
He was an example. His close walk with the Lord must have been the source of his wisdom. He never embarrassed us, or did anything to cause us to stumble.
He was content. He turned down pay raises. He knew when he had enough. Jesus was his Lord, not his wallet.
He was real. He was the same in private as he was in the pulpit.
These are just Christlike qualities. Any pastor who is called and has a close walk with the Lord will have these qualities. I won't settle for less.
By the way, I'm sure the list above is not complete, but it IS after 12:30 am, you know.
(Piglet, off to put on jammies and listen to that song again....)
G'night!
NBBCOF said...
he's already tried to post the identical comment 10 or 11 times today (I'm not exaggerating)
He's obviously not reading anything and just throwing bombs. This is why we are regularly admonished to ignore the trolls.
From: A Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan.
Section: THE SECOND STAGE.
The Gate - conversation with Good-Will - the Interpreter's House - Christian entertained - the sights there shown him
....
INTER. Then said Interpreter, Come in; I will show thee that which will be profitable to thee. So he commanded his man to light the candle, and bid Christian follow him; so he had him into a private room, and bid his man open a door; the which when he had done, Christian saw the picture a very grave person hang up against the wall; and this was the fashion of it: It had eyes lifted up to heaven, the best of books in his hand, the law of truth was written upon its lips, the world was behind its back; it stood as if it pleaded with men, and a crown of gold did hang over its head.
CHR. Then said Christian, What means this?
INTER. The man whose picture this is, is one of a thousand: he can beget children, 1 Cor. 4:15, travail in birth with children, Gal. 4:19, and nurse them himself when they are born. And whereas thou seest him with his eyes lift up to heaven, the best of books in his hand, and the law of truth writ on his lips: it is to show thee, that his work is to know, and unfold dark things to sinners; even as also thou seest him stand as if he pleaded with men.
And whereas thou seest the world as cast behind him, and that a crown hangs over his head; that is to show thee, that slighting and despising the things that are present, for the love that he hath to his Master's service, he is sure in the world that comes next, to have glory for his reward.
Now, said the Interpreter, I have showed thee this picture first, because the man whose picture this is, is the only man whom the Lord of the place whither thou art going hath authorized to be thy guide in all difficult places thou mayest meet with in the way: wherefore take good heed to what I have showed thee, and bear well in thy mind what thou hast seen, lest in thy journey thou meet with some that pretend to lead thee right, but their way goes down to death.
nighty....
25+,
Been too long since I read that masterpiece. Must hunt it up. Thanks.
Another text that often is overlooked (probably because of its context) is Romans 13:10, "Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law." This is Paul's brief exposition of Lev. 19:18. It demonstrates the essential connection of love and law, whereas the popular sentiment is to disconnect them.
Long ago I lost any idealism about the man in the pulpit. I think many things are forgiveable, can be overlooked, maybe not even necessary, as long as he rightly divides the Word. Doesn't even have to be eloquent, but must have the anointing when he speaks. Some of the greatest I have known had their own quirks. Some did not have good people skills. But when they spoke from the pulpit, nothing else mattered. I love what I heard J. I. Packer say at a conference - "There is something unique in the plan of God about the people of God meeting in the House of God to hear the man of God give the Word of God." Amen!
Karen: You've got mail.
:)
Bunyan's "portrait" of a pastor (earlier entry) from the 1600s is not idealistic. Every characteristic given is from the Bible.
The "eyes lifted up to heaven" speak of prayer, trust, focus ("set your mind on things above, etc.), guidance, etc. The line which reads, "the best of books in his hand" speaks of readiness to preach. The line which reads, "the law of truth writ on his lips" speaks of speaking the truth in daily life and from God's Word (giving the whole counsel of God).
"And whereas thou seest the world as cast behind him, and that a crown hangs over his head; that is to show thee, that slighting and despising the things that are present, for the love that he hath to his Master's service, he is sure in the world that comes next, to have glory for his reward."
A true undershepherd of Christ is not materialistic. The world is behind his back. The golden crown on his head is symbolic of future heavenly reward and not of earthly exaltation or putting on a pedestal.
Bunyan intended the reader to understand that this portrait was to help identify a true under-shepherd from a false one.
____
"Now, said the Interpreter, I have showed thee this picture first, because the man whose picture this is, is the only man whom the Lord of the place whither thou art going hath authorized to be thy guide in all difficult places thou mayest meet with in the way: wherefore take good heed to what I have showed thee, and bear well in thy mind what thou hast seen, lest in thy journey thou meet with some that pretend to lead thee right, but their way goes down to death."
_____
Bunyan did not make a pastor an idol, but he did point out that an under-shepherd given by God "is the only man whom the Lord of the place whither thou art going hath authorized to be thy guide in all difficult places thou mayest meet with in the way."
There is no other scriptural office ordained by God to fulfill the role of leading Christ's flock.
Some who are posting here appear to be disillusioned--like the man who saw a mirage in the desert of a beautiful oasis and ended up with a mouthful of sand.
The antidote for such disillusionment is to get our eyes on Jesus. It is Christ in a pastor whose life supplies what the undershepherd needs to lead as Jesus did. Pastors are not perfect, but they are God-given ("And He gave... pastors...).
Like a work of art, the portrait that Bunyan gave takes reflection. Please read it again and consider what I've said.
Passages on the Qualifications of a Pastor
1 Timothy 3:1-7
1) Blameless
2) Husband of one wife
3) Vigilant
4) Sober
5) Of good character
6) Given to hospitality
7) Apt to teach
8) Not given to wine
9) No striker
10) Not greedy of filthy lucre
11) Patient
12) Not a brawler
13) Not covetous
14) One that rules his own household well
15) Not a novice
16) Good report of them which are without.
Titus 1:5-9
1) Blameless
2) Husband of one wife
3) Faithful children
4) Not self-willed
5) Not soon angry
6) Not given to wine
7) No striker
8) Not greedy
9) A lover of hospitality
10) A lover of good men
11) Sober
12) Just
13) Holy
14) Temperate
15) Holding fast the faithful word
16) Exhort and convince the gainsayers
1 Peter 5:1-7
1) Feed the flock of God
2) Taking the oversight not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3) [Taking the oversight] Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
Karen: I just sent it again....wonder what the deal is?
Don't know - haven't gotten it yet.
I'll email you another address to try.
25,
Love what you posted, but if the pastor believes that the "Qualifications" are merely "Guidelines", what are members supposed to do? The Golden Rule has turned into "The one who has the gold, makes the rules" and nothing is going to change that until 1) the gravy train runs dry or 2) God opens the eyes of Bellevue and reveals every ugly thing and really cleans His house.
karen
NASS & Karen, you have mail.
Sister Karen,
You wrote:
"Love what you posted, but if the pastor believes that the "Qualifications" are merely "Guidelines", what are members supposed to do?"
Reply:
When an undershepherd is disqualified, believers need to keep following the Chief Shepherd.
Keep walking with Jesus.
Love the Lord with all of your heart soul and strength and in the fear the Lord depart from evil...
Pray.
Believe that God sees and hears.
Know that heaven is not meeting in emergency session.
Know that the spots and wrinkles on the bride's wedding garment will be cleansed and pressed. Jesus will present His bride spotless.
Keep your eyes on Jesus and not on people.
Stay filled and armored.
Stand (Eph. 6).
25+: Great reminder. Thanks so much.
:)
25+,
I cannot find the word 'pastor' in the NT. I can find the word, 'elder'. And I have noticed that there are usually a plurality of elders in the church. All being able to teach. This works when Christ is the 'Head' of the church.
Yeah, but what about kicking people in the behind to MAKE THEM understand? Oh yeah, that's not a good attitude, huh? I'm going to print out your list and compare it to what I've been doing lately to make the situation better and see how it stacks up.
I'm thinking I have more work to do! :)
karen
Lin,
Pastor simply means shepherd.
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens,that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the bodyof Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive"
For about a decade now there has been a rise in popularity of the idea of the plurality of elders. There are many things that have fed this trend.
However, when our Lord wrote letters to the seven churches, He addressed them to the "angel" (messenger) of the church of ____. Messenger in the singular. The vast majority of those who comment here recognize that He meant the Pastor of the church.
We forget when coming to the NT that at Ephesus and Jerusalem there were house churches--not cathedrals or basilicas with multiple elders. Rathers the leaders of the house churches gathered in Acts 15 and in Acts 20. Paul reminded them in Acts 20 of how he taught them "house to house."
In his general letter read by many churches, Peter wrote:
1 Peter 5:1 "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."
All three major duties are mentioned related to the titles Pastor, Bishop, Elder.
Pastor = Shepherd ("feed the flock").
Elder = Leader.
Bishop = Overseer "taking the oversight"
Elder, In consideration of the dignity of the office.
Bishop, "overseer” Regarding the work to be done.
Shepherd, Illustrates method for approaching the work.
All three spoke of one office.
A pastor should be scripturally qualified, God-called to the ministry, and God-given to a church.
Brother Lin,
For more information on this, try:
Journal for Baptist Theology and Ministry Vol. 3 No. 1 (Spring 2005): 188-212 Elder Rule and Southern Baptist Church Polity by Robert A. Wring
http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:O_VEeDpS9boJ:www.
baptistcenter.com/Journal%2520Articles/Spr%25202005/11%2520Wring%2520Revision.pdf
+Robert+Wring+elders&hl=
en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&ie=UTF-8
25+,
Just FYI -- Lin is of the female persuasion.
offline for a while
I like the fact that 25+'s 12:30 post ends with Stand!
Not be silent, not ignore, not go along....stand.
I know leadership and little trolls just hate that.
Standing for what we know is right in the sight of God and not man
is what this is still about.
No matter how many people leave BBC, how arrogant leadership continues to be,
or whether we ever go back into that building on Appling.....
we continue to stand for truth!
Sister Lin,
sorry Lin. eom
offline
Bro.Lin,
:)
you just shouldn't be so smart,girl.
Actually, I think that is a compliment!
This was sent to me this morning by a disillusioned BBC member who doesn't post here:
"So much has been brought to light about the SBC in general, that I question so much of what is going on there. Case in point has to do with SWBTS & Paige Patterson - he has spoken out about the spiritual authority of senior pastors & such. SG comes from SWBTS, so I question what comes out of that seminary.
"Three times last summer, we heard from SG, another speaker (I can't think of his name), & David Jeremiah on the parable of the lost sheep, lost coin, & prodigal son. What comes out of the parable of the lost sheep is the fact that the shepherd goes out to find that lost sheep. (I am reminded of when a few years back, Bobby Welch preached on the same parable of lost sheep, and he climbed over the rail of the balcony demonstrating what a shepherd would do for his lost sheep. That was a picture of a Good Shepherd.)
"Are those that are leaving BBC the same as being "lost sheep"? If we are, who is coming out looking for us? What we get is when we tell someone we are not at BBC anymore, they say they hope we find a place to worship (obviously somewhere else). We haven't been contacted by members of BBC to restore to fellowship or to try to bring us back in. It seems to be the old 'like it or leave it' way of thinking."
What I am posting is taken from a sermon by John MacArthur titled, 12 Marks of Excellent Pastoral Ministry and the scripture is taken from 1 Timothy 4:6-16. I ask all of you to read it…I am providing the link at the bottom of this post. He sums this subject up so very well. Any pastor who reads this and who is following the deceitfulness rampant in the churches today should hang his head in shame. I cannot stress strongly enough how important it is that all of you read this sermon from John MacArthur. It is truth.
I recently had a conversation with a pastor and told him my opinion of Lifeway, which is not a good opinion for reasons I would be happy to discuss. I suggested to him that churches use the Bible in lieu of Lifeway literature for Sunday School lessons, etc. My suggestion upset him to the point of anger. His reply to me was “what would they do for other people’s opinions?” I was stunned! Speechless! Is it that the pastors in today’s culture have grown to depend on man instead of God to the point they can’t think for themselves? Many pastors today actually stand in the pulpit and read sermons written by others available on the internet! I get this visual image fixed in my mind of the artist’s rendering of Jesus with the tears streaming down his face where the earth is affixed in his background. You’ve seen it. It breaks my heart…as I can understand so well what this artist was saying to his/her audience. As I have affixed myself with the study of ‘goings on’ in our churches in the last couple of years or so, I easily become righteously indignant with the attitudes of some pastors/ministers. Let me stress in my conversation about this, that there are many, many good pastors out there. However, those who have fallen for the deceit of the false teachers, are many …and we seem to hear more from them than those who have not. We must hold steadfast in prayer for correction of this matter….but we must also remember the message at the back of the book. We must work hard doing the Lord’s work…He is coming soon.
Now, just touching on this sermon are these things I picked out for you to read before going to the link:
1- An excellent minister warns his people of error.
2- The second thing that the apostle Paul points to and in the same verse, 1 Timothy 1:6, is that an excellent minister is a faithful student of scripture.
3- An excellent minister avoids the influence of unholy teaching.
4-An excellent minister is disciplined in personal godliness. A minister, while being responsible for his physical health, is far more consumed with his godliness and the disciplines that produce godliness.
5- An excellent minister is committed to hard work.
6-An excellent minister teaches with authority. .. “command and teach these things.” This is a command…keep commanding, keep teaching these things. What things? All the things related to divine truth and virtue. You’re not just there to share your thoughts and share your ideas. You’re not just there to have a conversation with people. You’re there to command them, to command them to repent, to command them to believe the gospel, to command them to bow the knee to the authority of the word of God, to teach them all things whatsoever Christ has commanded.
7-An excellent minister is a model of spiritual virtue. Now we’re getting down to the life behind the message. In speech, conduct or lifestyle, love, faith, faithfulness, and purity, sexual purity primarily, show yourself an example of those who believe. The single greatest support of the truth in your preaching is the power of an exemplary life. This is your most reliable weapon. This is what makes everything believable. This is what causes all your critics to disappear when your life is behind what you say.
8-An excellent minister maintains a thoroughly Biblical ministry. 1 Timothy, 4:13- “Until I come, give attention to the reading of scripture to exhortation and teaching.” This sort of sums up what you’re supposed to do. Read the scripture, explain the scripture and apply the scripture. The word is used in Hebrews 7:13 of a priest fully absorbed in his work at that alter. Be fully consumed and absorbed, having given your attention to the scripture. The public reading including the correct exposition. The idea of explaining it. And then directing it to their hearts by way of exhortation and clarifying it by way of teaching. Your whole ministry is all about the word of God. And know you know that. And you are prepared for that.
9-An excellent minister uses his spiritual gift, employs it. And the idea here is to keep doing it. 1 Timothy 4:14- “Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you.”
10-An excellent minister is passionate regarding his work. 1 Timothy 4:15= “Take pains with these things. Be absorbed in them.” That’s an interesting translation. The phrase here is actually entutois disphe. Literally, it says, “In these things be you.”
11-An excellent minister is manifestly growing spiritually. If you are fully absorbed in the matters of ministry, both in the knowledge of scripture and its application in your own life, your progress may be evident to all. Don’t try to fool anybody when you show up at the church and make them think you’ve arrived. Be manifestly growing.
12-An excellent minister perseveres in ministry. Perseveres – pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching, persevere in these things
So what does a pastor do? He makes the following commitments. I will warn my people of error. I will devote myself to the study of scripture. I will avoid the influence of unholy teaching that sucks out my conviction. I will discipline myself in godliness. I will work hard. I will teach with divine authority. I will endeavor to be a model of spiritual virtue. I will maintain a thoroughly Biblical ministry. I will employ my spiritual gift and not neglect it. I will be passionate about this privileged work. I will let all see my growth in grace and persevere with endurance to complete the task that God gives me and pledge at the end as the _____ and joy the salvation of God and so will those to whom you minister. (Transcriber couldn’t decipher)
John MacArthur on Excellent Pastoral Ministry
25+ wrote: However, when our Lord wrote letters to the seven churches, He addressed them to the "angel" (messenger) of the church of ____. Messenger in the singular. The vast majority of those who comment here recognize that He meant the Pastor of the church."
Are you saying that the reference to the 'angel' of the church in Ephesus (and so on) refers to the pastor of that particular church?
The word 'angel' in the letters is the exact same word for 'angels' also in chapter 7 where the 4 angels are standing in the 4 corners of the earth.
I am trying to understand your meaning in saying the angels referred to are actually the pastors of those 7 churches. It does not add up with the exact same word for angels being used elsewhere in Revelations.
Strongs Hebrew and Greek dictionary say this for the word angel in both Rev 2 and Rev 7:
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō ); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.
"We forget when coming to the NT that at Ephesus and Jerusalem there were house churches--not cathedrals or basilicas with multiple elders."
I have not forgotten that at all. It makes my point. Do we have the names of the specific 'shepherd' for any of the churches in the letters? I can think of one or two that may fit. But them all?
"All three major duties are mentioned related to the titles Pastor, Bishop, Elder.
Pastor = Shepherd ("feed the flock").
Elder = Leader.
Bishop = Overseer "taking the oversight"
Elder, In consideration of the dignity of the office.
Bishop, "overseer” Regarding the work to be done.
Shepherd, Illustrates method for approaching the work.
All three spoke of one office.
A pastor should be scripturally qualified, God-called to the ministry, and God-given to a church.
1:06 PM, June 29, 2007
Ok, can you point me to the scripture that includes the office of 'Shepherd' and the qualifications separate from the eldership?
Just to let you know where I am coming from...I think we have institutionalized these 'positions' to the point they are not recognizable from the scriptural descriptions and intent.
I am here to learn...not argue. So please do not take offense to my questions.
Grace and Peace.
I don't hear anything, do y'all?
Well, I feel left out on this thread about what one looks for in a pastor, but regarding the one on Appling, we have a Buddhist maxim:
First, do no harm.
Love y'all,
D.
I still love 'why' no matter how angry he becomes.
why,
I have an eyewitness account of a 7th grader who was there. The whole house shook when he was screaming - so unless you were there, why don't you just run along now?
Pardon me a moment, NASS and all, but here goes ...
Why’s posts are full of pure hate and lies. THE problem I have is the way he is doing what he is doing. He never stays on topic and on the serious issues. He always makes posts spewing hate and personal attacks. Calling names and TRYING to hurt others. PRIDE and the devil keep him from seeing this. As a Christian, there is no way he can read his own posts and claim they are of Christ. It is not even close. He could ask questions, show concern, and so on WITHOUT name calling, disrespecting, and personally attacking others. It CAN be done and he knows it. But he is blinded with hate and consumed by pride. He would be looked at in an entirely different way if he changed the way he is doing things and took others’ advice.
Me too Lin. Only I thought WHY was female. Oh well...Is he on staff at Bellevue? He seems to know a lot about what goes on there?
I hope Dr. Gaines will read my post about Excellent Pastoral Ministry. Every pastor needs to read that. Whether they have a problem or not.
I am with Charlie Fox on the trolls...just pass up the posts they post. Only way to handle it. Just adds fuel to the flame any other way. And NASS too, of course. That is what she says to do as well. They are absolutely right.
Why,
You didn't address the fact that Donna Gaines took the girls to the grocery store to get toilet paper. You didn't address the fact that Donna left said girls in the car so that "the Kroger people won't know what we're up to". You didn't address the fact that Donna LEFT THESE KIDS IN THE CAR BY THEMSELVES, AT NIGHT, IN A STRANGE NEIGHBORHOOD, ALONE, IN PREPARATION FOR DOING A VANDALISM ACTIVITY! The issue of "rolling" had been addressed by the youth leaders prior to the DNow event and the kids were told that "rolling" was out! Now, what say you to that?
Karen...I'm not so sure she wasn't there. I, uh...mean he.
Cakes said...
Well, I feel left out on this thread about what one looks for in a pastor, but regarding the one on Appling, we have a Buddhist maxim:
First, do no harm.
Love y'all,
D.
Hmmmm...I thought that was Hippocrates. Or was it Hippo-cakes?
Ima,
I'm putting my money on the eyewitness account of a 7th grader with impecable morals - she was there. She knows what happened, she heard Steve bellow across the house. Why just has to deal with the fact that his/her hero has character flaws.
I'm gonna say this...really hate to, but:
Karen said, "she heard Steve bellow across the house"...
Reply: Well...maybe the reason not much attention was given to it is because that is normal behavior?
I'm going to take my leave before I get into trouble!
offline...
If they were my kids, they would clean up every house they TP'd.
With a toothbrush. Then they would have to be indentured servants to the victim for a month.
yes, just call me: mommy dearest.
Why,
Address my other questions or be gone with you. I don't care that Steve had a temper tantrum - the fact remains the Gaines do whatever pleases them and people let them get away with it. Deal with your hero worship somewhere else, no one here is interested! Go build a temple in SG's honor, go carve a bust out cream cheese, but please, just go!
lin,
NO WIRE HANGERS EVER!
Here is a great idea, start your own church.
Cool idea! We could call "Why" as pastor! Can't ya just feel all the warmth and love already??
Karen said...
go carve a bust out cream cheese,
LOL!
Maybe Why IS SG.......
Karen said...
go carve a bust out cream cheese
Make that "carve a bust out OF cream cheese"
:)
Piglet,
Either that or saddle sales are slow today!
I totally cannot spell today! What I meant to say was "Church of the Poisoned Mind" should be the name of "why"'s new church.
I was thinking about buying Steve the CD's from Dr. Rogers sermon series, FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.
Looking at the titles, this could help his shepharding skills.
1431CD How To Love And How To Be Loved
1433CD Joy Is An Inside Job
1435CD Peace In The Midst Of Your Storm
1437CD You're Never A Failure Until You Quit
1444CD Faithfulness
1446CD The Mighty Meek
1440CD Try A Little Kindness
1442CD What Is The Good Life?
1450CD How To Have A Spirit-Controlled Life.
We all would benefit from this wonderful series but there are a few sermons SG & DC and deacons could learn from.
Idolatry has many forms...worship of a pastor is one of them.
And...have I missed something here? It isn't halloween...what is the deal with rolling yards in June? Or is that just a youth thing at Bellevue?
Y'all...please do read the MacArthur sermon in my post. You will be glad you did. It is great. :)
Bye........
maybe Why could use a set of the Fruit of the Spirit CD's as well.
Since he doesn't like DR or sound doctrine, he probably wouldn't like the CD's anyway.
Junk,
Is it really? That sounds right, if you're talking about the oath that doctors assume.
I was shocked a few years ago when I read an article about the intellectual contact between ancient Indian and Greek cultures, and how that shaped the philosophical and technological advancements of each. An Indian astronomer, Aryabhata, was the first person to postulate that the earth was a sphere rotating around the sun, and accurately decribed what caused the lunar and solar eclipses.
I'm always fascinated by how the Beatitudes--and I mean no heresy here, only compliment--is consistent with the words of Shakimuni.
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