This one is next to the seminary and faces west:
That's a nice sentiment, but it's only part of the verse. This is the verse in its entirety.
"Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited." Romans 12:16 NIV
Read the verse in context here.
This one is adjacent to the ball fields and faces east:
"Pray for one another." There's certainly nothing wrong with that. But is that what James 5:9 really says? Let's take a look.
"Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!" James 5:9 NIV
Read the verse in context here. The verse on the billboard is a snippet from James 5:16 NASB. So why doesn't the sign say "James 5:16"? Is this just another "mistake of the mind"?
And now we have word of a third billboard, this one on Summer Avenue near Mendenhall.
Here is that verse in its entirety: "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching." Hebrews 10:25 NIV
I've heard there are more of these billboards around town. Anyone who knows the location of others (photos would be nice), please let me know. I'm sure these aren't the only hidden nuggets just waiting for the "dissenters" to find. Think of it as a sheep-beaters treasure hunt!
723 comments:
1 – 200 of 723 Newer› Newest»I know these are taken out of context but looking at these at face value...do these apply to the leadership too?
As you might remember, not all scripture does.
Just wondering.
Sheep beaters treasure hunt? Oh Nass I am falling out (it's a Southern thing!) over that one. That is priceless!
I wonder who is responsible for this? Whose idea was it to use these verses? What message are they trying to send with the likes of this? How much did this fiasco cost?
I'm reminded of David going into the camp and taking Saul's sword. When he left the camp his men asked why he did not kill Saul. David could not because it would be wrong to do anything to God's anointed, even when they have gone mad.
I recommend a reading of "A Tale of Three Kings" by Gene Edwards. Every church member, in any church, could benefit from the insight Edwards demonstrates. It is a lesson on brokenness.
I find the billboard curious for two reasons. First, as someone else mentioned, it is not the complete verse. It should be referenced as Romans 12:16a. Second, the verse comes from Today's New International Version (TNIV) which is gender-neutral. I have linked an article which shows that many Baptist leaders (including seminary presidents) cannot endorse the TNIV.
A quote from the article:
"In light of troubling translation inaccuracies -- primarily (but not exclusively) in relation to gender language -- that introduce distortions of the meanings that were conveyed better by the original NIV, we cannot endorse the TNIV translation as sufficiently accurate to commend to the church."
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=12653
The 2nd billboard is part of James 5:16.
Yes...instead of being found in James 5:9, it is found in part of James 5:16 and not even exact in that. Here it is:
Jam 5:16 "Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
I noticed the same thing. The reference on the second billboard is incorrect and is taken from the New American Standard Version. I wonder why the billboards jump from version to version?
psalm 43:3 said...
I wonder why the billboards jump from version to version?
reply: to get it to say what they want. PD churches do this. Rick Warren uses I don't know how many tranlations in a single sermon to get it to say what he wants it to say...which most of the time, the verse is out of context.
Psa 43,
If you will read the Purpose Driven Church, Warren uses all the versions to drive his point across. Someone must have been reading his book.
Okay, I'll admit it....I find it annoying for people to jump translations to make it say what they want it to say. It seems misleading, somehow. JMHO
I repeat my offer to purchase the next two billboards in line after these and put the whole translation up.
Taking 25 scriptures from Gen. to Rev. on Sunday and out of context to beat the sheep over the head has been routine since Steve Gaines arrived.
Why would anyone wonder who selected these billboards.
and... to jon estes,
This is the same book Steve Gaines purchased for the staff when he took them over to Opryland Hotel this past Spring. He used this book to knock them over the head into submission. If you're not careful, listening to Steve will make you think it's wrong to say a pedophile can't be on staff as a minister.
I meant to say contribute to the purchase of billboard space.
I have no clue how much it costs to run a billboard.
Yes...this is typical Rick Warren propaganda. In his book, The Purpose Driven Life, the scripture he has used has been paraphrased, twisted, misconstrued, chopped up, butchered, taken from thirteen to fifteen different translation, assembled, fabricated, conjured, falsified, and all of the above to suit his 'purpose'. To these people, it really doesn't matter WHAT the Bible says...it has to get their point across. It has to appeal to the seekers...it has to meet their 'felt needs'. How pathetic.
"I recommend a reading of "A Tale of Three Kings" by Gene Edwards. Every church member, in any church, could benefit from the insight Edwards demonstrates. It is a lesson on brokenness."
Hello friend, I would do lots of research on Edwards before I recommend his books.
In any event, here is a sample reading of Three Kings...the prologue. Anyone see any problems here?
http://www.lemstone.com/e/firstchapter.asp?mode=view&index=105
A verse for your new billboard:
Matthew 16:6 NASB
lin wrote:
"Anyone see any problems here?"
The "Mall of Unborn Destinies"? I don't get it. I don't get any of it. Sounds like New Age mumbo jumbo to me. Is the whole book like that?
Fogmachine
Does it really matter if SG used this book in a negative or positive way. Gene Edwards is not a member of BBC and the book is worth the read.
Some of you believe SG misuses the bible, you will still read it an discover what it says for yourselves, am I right?
I am not supporting or slamming SG by my comments but making comments I believe would be helpful to those who post here.
Jon Estes wrote:
"Does it really matter if SG used this book in a negative or positive way. Gene Edwards is not a member of BBC and the book is worth the read.
"Some of you believe SG misuses the bible, you will still read it an discover what it says for yourselves, am I right?"
Good point. I would definitely want to read it before passing judgment, but can you tell me if the sample passages linked in the comment above are representative of this book? Because if they are, I really don't think I could read the whole thing. It just sounds too weird. I'm not into that kind of writing style. The message may be a good one, but if I can't understand what the author is trying to say, what's the point? (That's my opinion of Shakespeare, for example.) I'm really trying to understand this and don't mean to be critical. Help me out here!
By the way, welcome to the blog!
New BBC...
The prologue is much different in its command for attention than the rest of the book. The rest of the book walks through the life of David, Saul and Absolom, with the main focus on how shepherd then King David responded to these men.
It is a small book and a quick read. I will work to get a few excerpts from the book next week as I must be gone for a few days.
Thank you for your kind response.
From last part of Section 4 of Three Kings:
If your king is truly the Lord's anointed, and if he also throws spears, then there are some things you can know and know for sure:
Your king is quite mad
And he is a king after the order of King Saul.
trollin', trollin', trollin'...
keep that motor trollin'.........
lin quoted:
"Your king is quite mad... "
Define "mad"!
Run the word "Harmony" through your thesarus.
Harmony = unity = accepted believe = prevailing attitude.
Sounds like . . . . feel good, fake Christianity.
Re: the title of this thread...
Isn't "Twisted Scripture" the name of a "Christian Rock" band with bad theology??
Actually, the first billboard was really supposed to be an advertisement for my Christian dating website, but it had a typo...should have read
"Live in eHarmony with one another..."
Dr. Neil Clark Warren
(No relation to Rick)
lin quoted:
"Your king is quite mad... "
Define "mad"!"
Ya gotta ask Gene Edwards. See how that works? With scripture, we ask the Holy Spirit.
"David could not because it would be wrong to do anything to God's anointed, even when they have gone mad."
This is the part of the comment that concerned me. We are under the new covenant of Jesus Christ now. ALL BELIEVERS ARE ANOINTED. Read John.
Here is a link to a sermon we should all listen to...especially anyone who believes that one man is anointed by God over other believers. It is Biblical. Listen to it.
The weak and sinful earthly priest part 1
http://www.anchoredintruth.org/Loudblog_0_5_1/index.php?id=115
Part 2
http://www.anchoredintruth.org/Loudblog_0_5_1/index.php?id=116
Imaresistor probably heard this in person. She can vouch for this pastor. Part B is very important to hear.
Sorry about the url's my link thingie just does not work.
So, how does a CHURCH cite the WRONG scripture reference for a PARTIAL verse on a billboard????????
Just askin!!!
junk99male said...
Re: the title of this thread...
Isn't "Twisted Scripture" the name of a "Christian Rock" band with bad theology??
8:55 PM, June 21, 2007
LOL. That would sound like it wouldn't it. I know theres Twisted Sister who has a song many of us truthseekers can buy into ...."We're Not Gonna Take it...NO! We ain't gonna take it....anymore" :)
The Fox asked:
"So, how does a CHURCH cite the WRONG scripture reference for a PARTIAL verse on a billboard????????"
Reply: The same way they do on Sunday morning and Sunday nite!!!
Troll ALERT.
Gaines supporters have often pointed to the discontentment and split that occurred following the arrival of Dr. Ramsey Pollard. Since that eventually blew over, they assume the current difficulties will as well. They prefer to see no difference.
However, in contrast to the present situation, the squabbles in 1960 were largely over matters of style, such as Dr. Pollard not wearing white suits like his predecessor, the inimitable Dr. Lee. It is important to note that Dr. Pollard's integrity was never called into question and he was never caught in a lie.
And he did not believe it was necessary to "take out the trash" before he could begin his ministry properly. While doing some research in the Bellevue library, a dear brother recently discovered what Dr. Pollard had to say about the dissenters of his day. Listen to these tender words from a true pastor:
"They are valuable people - they are ours - they are a part of our family and we must love them enough to go after them."
(The Bellevue Messenger, 4-29-1960)
All2Jesus
Thank you for that insight. I have wondered about that, but felt sure there was no scandal involved.
What heartwarming words to hear from a pastor concerning those who disagree with him - no accusations of witchcraft, no questioning their salvation, no puffed up remarks about his authority and the responsibility of the peons not to question.
It has been a long time since we have had a shepherd to love us. I long for a shepherd that I can trust and look up to.....
All2Jesus: What a powerful display of leadership and love. How does that jive with "shooting the wolves?"
Stumbled across this when looking at "Twisted Scripture"
When a group influences its congregation to trust in the leaders and discourages criticism of the leadership, the group creates a lethal combination! They encourage errors to be overlooked and leaders can get away with almost anything.
TRUST IS EXPLOITED
Trust is an important word for believers. Our Christian life is built on trust.
MANIPULATIVE GROUPS MIGHT ...
control negative feedback of leaders
squelch legitimate criticism of leadership
teach people to obey even when they don't feel right about it (thus encouraging people to die to their sense of right and wrong)
teach that doubts and criticism of leadership equals sin
teach that all criticism of leadership is probably slanderous, divisive or factious
emphasize Biblical ideas like dying to self in a non-scriptural way
subtly redefine the meanings of words
HOUND ON CERTAIN BIBLICAL WORDS TO THE EXCLUSION OF OTHER SOUND BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES
induce guilt in members so they confess being sorry for not trusting their leader more
not tell you that in the Bible trust or loyalty is never used in reference to church leaders
TEACH YOU THAT UNITY MEANS THAT YOU NEED TO CHANGE YOUR OPINIONS TO MATCH THE GROUPS' INSTEAD OF CONSTANCY OF PURPOSE
teach you that you must only go to leaders in private when you are pointing out error
encourage the combination of trusting leaders and not criticizing
Non-controlling churches generally stick more closely to Scripture and only teach trusting in God, having faith in God, having loyalty to God and imitating the life and virtues of Jesus.
Copyright 1996 Mary Alice Chrnalogar Last revised: Nov 12, 1997
concernedSBCer said...
All2Jesus: What a powerful display of leadership and love. How does that jive with "shooting the wolves?"
I'm pretty confident the man never uttered the phrase "If you don't like it, why don't you find yourself another church?"
All2Jesus: I would agree with that. Where haven leaders like this gone???
TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED
By John R. Anderson - January 1997
One of the most common errors found in Christianity today is that particular persons, usually pastors or evangelists, are somehow more "anointed" than the average Christian. This teaching often coincides with a veiled threat in the form of "touch not mine [the Lord's] anointed," (I Ch. 16:22, Ps. 105:15).
The term "anointing" means to "authorize, or set apart, a person for a particular work or service," (Is.61:1). The New Testament is absolutely clear on whom the anointing rests - ALL of Christ's disciples, who are God's very own, set apart and commissioned for service (2 Cor. 1:21). The New Testament does not support the notion of a "greater" anointing based on "position" and such teaching has its origin in a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between the Old and New Testaments.
Proponents of this error fail to use careful exegesis to discern the difference between the Old Testament call of a "prophet," where the anointing rested on one man (Is. 61:1, I Sam. 26:9,11, 2 Sam. 22:51, 2 Chr. 6:42), and the New Testament call of a "priesthood of believers" (I Pet. 2:5,9). Certainly there are diversities of gifts, but the Spirit [or anointing] remains the same (I Cor. 12). Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, and many others have long terrorized God's people with "touch not mine anointed" nonsense if anyone dared question them or their teaching. Anyone who has a gift (all have gifts, 1 Cor. 12:7-11), has a ministry, and anyone who has a ministry, has authority and is anointed.
It is a sad situation in many churches today that "laity" are content to sit on a pew week after week and assume the opinions of professional clergymen are to be the final authority. They find comfort in this approach because it is safe. Preachers are content to keep it this way because it secures their position in the church.
How many times have believers been subjected to mishandled scripture with an implicit or explicit "touch not God's anointed" if any dared to question? This is in contrast to the Biblical admonition to "try the spirits", (1 John 4:1). Fear is not of God and teaching which incorporates psychological intimidation is corrupt and deceptive. One of the easiest ways to determine what "spirit" motivates a person "in authority" is to question them. A godly man or woman will never be offended or become indignant if someone dares to question them and compare what is said with the Word of God. However, if one is motivated by an "authoritarian" spirit of conceit or arrogance, the questioner will soon know it. Peter warned the elders (pastors and spiritual guides of the church) not to be domineering [arrogant, dictatorial, overbearing] over the flock of God, but to be patterns and models of Christian living (I Pet. 5:3)
Water Lily,
Excellent articles, thanks for sharing!
Wow, Lily, that's a torpedo right through the midships of pulpit piracy.
IN light of our subject,
WHAT was jon estes's point???
Is it all about comparing SG to a king?
Is it that SG is a king???
Is it that SG is mad???
Is it that we must submit to the mad king?????
have heard some wives of staff
make the same statement that fogmachine did....
So besides advising us to read a book SG dictated staff to read....
what is it??
Fogmachine... Maybe we could raise the money???
Has anyone noticed we are no longer shocked at what the SG's followers do????
no shame
Excuse me for jumping in here but I had this ready and no more time to spend with ya'll. Good anointed digging, Lilypad.
Dear ones,
And especially our friend in Christ, S. Tucker, yesterdays and today’s message by John MacArthur, “The Discipline of God’s Children” plainly contradicts what we think we understand ST’s beliefs to be regarding the discipline of pastors by the church. This is covered specifically in today’s massage about 10 minutes into the program.
These can be listened and downloaded from here.
Also, Charles Stanley had a lesson for each and all of us regarding being a friend in Christ. Personally, I found myself grieving over the shallowness of my true friendship toward my wife, children, family members, friends and acquaintances. Please find the time to listen and ask God what it is His intends for “you” to hear and heed.
This can be listened to from here.
Billboards….. NASS where is “truthseeker” from last fall when we need “him/her”? Remember? The one who said he had enough money to post what he knew about SG on all the billboards in Memphis and Birmingham.
Blessings,
Padroc
Sorry I am not more adept at that "linking" thing. A goal for the furture perhaps.
Psalm 119:4
Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts dilligently.
Lin said, "Imaresistor probably heard this in person. She can vouch for this pastor. Part B is very important to hear."
Reply: Yes Lin, I can vouch for this pastor. I would strongly recommend all of you listen to this pastor's daily broadcasts which can be found here
http://www.anchoredintruth.org
Lin: From last part of Section 4 of Three Kings:
If your king is truly the Lord's anointed, and if he also throws spears, then there are some things you can know and know for sure:
Your king is quite mad
And he is a king after the order of King Saul.
Jon: What is wrong with this, in context with the whole book? No anointed child of God should throw spears, to do so would mean they do not have the mind of Christ. It seems you have read the book and I hope you would notice that Saul was mad (out of his mind when it came to the things if God - thus mad). This is why he chucked spears at David. A Christian with the mind of Christ will not chuck spears, period.
Everything said negative about SG may be true but if you want to follow the pattern of scripture and be Christ like this truth must be balanced with grace. Grace does not throw spears.
Lin: This is the part of the comment that concerned me. We are under the new covenant of Jesus Christ now. ALL BELIEVERS ARE ANOINTED. Read John.
Jon: You make my point for me. David was anointed when he went into the camp and did not kill Saul. Being anointed himself did not give him the right to take Saul's life.
My fear and concern is that for any Christian person trying to see SG leave, repent, lead another direction more conducive to their own wishes... and is chucking verbal spears to make their point is, by their actions, after the order of Saul. I pray for them.
lily said..
" Peter warned the elders (pastors and spiritual guides of the church) not to be domineering [arrogant, dictatorial, overbearing] over the flock of God, but to be patterns and models of Christian living (I Pet. 5:3)"
I promise we won't see THAT on a billboard!
gmommy,
You stated, WHAT was jon estes's point???
Is it all about comparing SG to a king?
Is it that SG is a king???
Is it that SG is mad???
Is it that we must submit to the mad king?????
My point is that there is a right and wrong way to treat God's anointed. Truth must be deliver with grace. That is the way God's anointed should treat us yet when they don't it is not our place to less that truthful equaled with grace.
Honestly, with SG, I don't know what is true but for those who have commented on this forum I can discern that there is a heavy lack of grace from many. I love you in Christ and want the best for you. All of us are above this type of childishness.
Jon,
Could you then please help me to understand what one is to do when confronted with a situation like this, i.e. with a pastor who beats his sheep, doesn't follow Scripture, and from all appearances doesn't care who he rolls over just as long as he holds on to his big salary and position of power? Does "extending grace" mean simply ignoring everything and saying, "Let God take care of it"? If so, then to me this is no different than Steve Gaines letting a confessed child molester stay on staff for six months, putting the congregation in potential danger. He said it was "under the blood," so he had no need to take action. Is that what we, as Christians, are to do? Turn our heads and say nothing? As far as I'm concerned, this "touch not mine anointed" stuff is a man-made perversion of Scripture implemented by men like Steve Gaines and their followers who are either blinded by power and money or just plain blinded in general. They've turned the Bible into a club with which to beat the sheep into submission.
And about the "mad" part -- I'm not saying SG is "mad" in that sense of the word (which is why I asked Lin to define "mad" yesterday), but if it were to become obvious that he were, would it be our place to simply ignore it and let him continue? I don't understand.
Instead of couching it in generalized terms like "throwing spears," could you give us some examples of how one would go about dealing with this situation in the proper, Biblical way?
"My fear and concern is that for any Christian person trying to see SG leave, repent, lead another direction more conducive to their own wishes... "
Their OWN wishes? Is it really too much to expect a pastor to not only know scripture but also not to ignore it..continually?
Is it really throwing 'spears' to point out false teaching and an orthopraxy that does not match scripture in a professing believer such as a pastor?
jon estes,
Let me be sure I have your point straight...the mad king (spear chunker) may chunk his spears with impunity, since he is the Lord's annointed...but if he's called to account by the recipients of his spears...with a little less than grace...then it's they alone who are in the wrong? I sense you have a gentle spirit, so I'll state this as delicately as I can...there have been repeated attempts to approach the mad king gracefully, only to have more spears chunked in response. While I would not condone or encourage anyone to respond in kind, I'm sure you can, at the least, understand how this behavior by the mad king over a long period of time could evoke such responses? I suppose it's much easier to think and see things clearly when you aren't having spears lobbed at you, however when people are kept in a defensive posture for long periods of time, shown that they are neither loved nor wanted, and are labeled everything but something decent, exactly what response do you realistically expect? When the king oppresses, the people mourn...when a man takes another man's wife in adultery, he can expect a severe beating as the jealousy of the wronged husband rages. This is not a debate over the right or wrong of the response, it is an acknowledgment of what happens in certain situations. I guess this is one of those situations where you would have to "be there" to understand.
Jon,
Just let me add that it's been stated by two of his right-hand men that Matthew 18 doesn't apply to the pastor. I can only assume, since they were representing him when they stated this, that this reflects SG's opinion as well.
Several people early on tried to implement Matthew 18 by meeting with the pastor, and they were soundly rejected. So what's left? To me this is like seeing someone's house on fire. You know he has a wife and children in the house with him. First, you bang on the door, but the person refuses to leave the house. Then a couple of neighbors join you in banging on the door and pleading with him to get his family out. Finally, half the neighborhood bangs on his door and tells him he and his family must get out. If he refuses, are they supposed to turn their backs and let him and his family stay in the house and burn up?
BBC is figuratively burning. Are we to just turn our backs on the sin in the camp or stand around and fiddle like Nero while it's reduced to ashes?
jon estes said, "All of us are above this type of childishness."
Comment: You have hit the nail on the head Bro. Estes. I would just like to add that transitioning a church through the instruction of man, the likes of Rick Warren/Dan Southerland for example, would definitely qualify for childishness. In my opinion, God established the church and that should be left as it is. Childishness could be found among those who think God hasn't done a good enough job. Childishness could be found among those who want to 'change' God's Word. Childishness might be found among those deacons who are trespassing into a gated community by crawling over an established security fence. Childishness might be defined as a pastor who sees the need to protect a child molester. Childishness might be defined as a group of people so determined to bring Warrenism into a church they are willing to do so 'under the radar' whether other members want it or not.
Are we supposed to be 'closed mouthed' Bro. Estes for fear of being labled 'childish'? Are we supposed to accept what a pastor dishes out to us even when we know beyond any doubt that he is wrong and unbiblical? At what point do we take a stand or do we not take a stand under any circumstance?
What is your opinion Bro. Estes on the purpose driven movement, the seeker-sensitive movement, the emergent church, etc? I would be very interested in knowing your opinion. What is your opinion of Rick Warren? Have you incorporated any of his models into your church? If not, why? If so, why? Have any of your members left because of Warrenism?
Thanks, aog. Glad to see you back!
jon,
What is a congregation supposed to do when staff members who are in the know make alarming accusations to lay leaders, who quietly take these concerns to the pastor, associate pastor, deacon chairman, and other elders and are told to go away?
You may not know the extent of the grace these laymen have exhibited and have continued to exhibit.
I'm confident they were told to be quiet and drop it. When these men asked for these matters to be discussed with a small group of leaders behind closed doors to resolve the issues, they were told to leave the church if they didn't like the way things were run.
Then it got real ugly when the leadership started lying about these men who were deacons, teachers, and staff members. All of a sudden these same men who have been considered Godly servants at Bellevue got a little too close to the truth on some issues and the rest is history.
Tell us, what would you do if you knew sin was in the camp and the camp leaders told you to go away and be quiet? Whatever is being hidden (I believe financially more than anything) will eventually be found out even if it takes a court order.
When that happens, it will all be over.
These "annointed" ones you speak of are not only ripping Bellevue apart by thier sin, but they are starting to affect the whole Memphis community in a bad way.
"God's anointed"......
This one is difficult to say the least. This is NOT a self-proclaimed position nor one that any of us can 'give' to another believer. Only God. In a sense we are all God's anointed. My thot is that we are taking an Old Testament term that does not work in the NEW Testament (referring to time frames versus the Bible). The overriding theme of the Christian is 'servant.' Others before self. Not much of that around in our culture. If nowhere else, we should see it in the pulpit!
Nass wrote: And about the "mad" part -- I'm not saying SG is "mad" in that sense of the word (which is why I asked Lin to define "mad" yesterday), but if it were to become obvious that he were, would it be our place to simply ignore it and let him continue? I don't understand."
Nass, the bottom line is I quoted this book because Jon brought it here as teaching for us. First of all, I have serious reservations about Gene Edwards and his 'movement' of which he has sort of become a 'king'.
The book as a taste of 'touch not the anointed' to it.
Secondly, we know this book was used by Gaines for the staff at a retreat. Based on his track record for twisting scripture and proof texting, this concerned me greatly.
I personally do not think this book applies to the situation at all. Gaines is a false teacher/wolf and according to the NT, we are to warn of false teachers and wolves.
What Jon does not realize is that there has been lots of GRACE extended in the form of trying to work with the leadership. From my vantage point, each and every time, the willingness to deal openly was used against them.
Perhaps Jon can explain to us why a motion for integrity in pastors was refused at the last so called business meeting? As a matter of fact, it was shut down when the motion came up. Perhaps Jon can tell us why leadership has refused to allow members to see the church books? Perhaps Jon can explain why Gaines refused to meet with the ministers of prayer's son, the victim of rape by his father so many times?
I could go on and on. Notwithstanding, the last false teaching from BBC are billboards that twist the meaning of a verse of scripture!
Are those truths 'spears' to you, my friend? Does it lack grace to speak of truths and to warn?
Friend, it is easy to bring a book written by a man, here, to show us how wrong we are. I have about a hundred in my book case that would blow you out of the water. But, the truth is, we must take scripture teaching as a whole, in context.
Perhaps you believe John showed a lack of Grace to Diontrephes? Or Paul a lack of grace to Peter?
"Whoever would be greatest among you, must be servant to all."
ima wrote:
"Childishness might be defined... "
...as a pastor who kept a detailed list of every time he or his wife perceived that a certain seminary president had "snubbed" the Mrs. Then after confronting said seminary president with the "evidence" and demanding an apology, when the confronted one calmly stated "my heart is pure" and offered no apology, the pastor, in front of witnesses, threw down his list and stormed out of the room. I'd say that's pretty childish! Just keeping such a ridiculous list in the first place is childish. Pitching a hissy fit when it becomes obvious no one else is going to play your little games is, I guess, just more of the same.
lin wrote:
"Nass wrote: 'And about the 'mad' part -- I'm not saying SG is "mad" in that sense of the word (which is why I asked Lin to define 'mad' yesterday), but if it were to become obvious that he were, would it be our place to simply ignore it and let him continue? I don't understand.'
"Nass, the bottom line is I quoted this book because Jon brought it here as teaching for us. First of all, I have serious reservations about Gene Edwards and his 'movement' of which he has sort of become a 'king'."
Oh, I know, Lin. I was directing my overall questions to Jon. I was just asking you if you meant "mad" in the sense of "angry" or in the sense of one "touched in the head." SG certainly seems angry towards his sheep. Otherwise, I'm not qualified to comment one way or the other about his mental state.
Throwing "Hissy fits" seems like a lot of unresolved anger.
Or a control freak, loosing control. JMHO
Fog Machine said, "These "annointed" ones you speak of are not only ripping Bellevue apart by their sin, but they are starting to affect the whole Memphis community in a bad way."
AMEN.
Jon: I find some of your posts disturbing at best in that you seem to be following the seeker ideology of only emphasizing half of the character of God. As I recall, Jesus did not show grace to the money changers in the temple. He was righteously angry, intent on driving them out by whatever means were necessary. I believe great damage has been done to our denomination, and churches as a whole, with the watering down of scripture, the desire to "draw people in" by rosey stories and happy endings. Some of the most admirable followers of Jesus Christ didn't have happy earthly endings: Paul, Stephen, John, Peter....the list goes on. In the Old Testament, even God's chosen people were punished as well. God is a God of mercy and grace, but He is also Holy and righteous. The church has appeared to have lost their "fear" of God, thus making much of what they do weak and without impact. The seeker method is not giving believers a long term Biblical foundation because they are not taught the whole character of God.
Jon: Also I can't imagine being called childish for wanting accountability, integrity, and Godly leadership from our pulpits. Can you explain this to me?
I still stand by my statement that if God was sorry He appointed Saul as king, why can't we be sorry that Steve Gaines was brought to Bellevue?
1 Samuel 15:10-11
10"Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel:
11"I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night."
Remember, Saul kept the best of the cattle and sheep when he was supposed to have destroyed all of them. He just kept the "itty bitty" animals; "it was a mistake of the head, not the heart" that Saul did this. Can't you just see the sheepish (sorry!) look on Saul's face when Samuel confronts him here:
13 When Samuel reached him, Saul said, "The LORD bless you! I have carried out the LORD's instructions."
14 But Samuel said, "What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?"
15 Saul answered, "The soldiers brought them from the Amalekites; they spared the best of the sheep and cattle to sacrifice to the LORD your God, but we totally destroyed the rest."
lin,
I totally agree with your last post, but who the heck does Bellevue have proofreading final decision over there if they can't get a scripture reference correct? Regardless of the out of context usage of the scripture, isn't just BAD all the way around when a church can't get the scripture reference correct?
karen
By the way, if you're doing anything Sunday night, go to the GBC patriotic program - my brother will be singing! :)
I feel like Donkey in Shrek:
"I'm all aloooonnnnneee"
NASS said, "Several people early on tried to implement Matthew 18 by meeting with the pastor, and they were soundly rejected."
NASS,
There is a group of men who were promised a meeting with the pastor months ago. David Coombs made the promise. Those men have been ready to meet with the pastor for at least two months but he has been avoiding them. This group of men has been quiet and shown him considerable grace. My husband knows some of them and has discussed this with them. While some were urging them to blast the pastor and David Coombs, they were unwilling to do so because they did not believe it was the right thing to do. Our pastor and staff have been shown considerable grace by many.
proverbs,
You are correct. I think this group has shown more grace and patience than could ever be expected. They were promised a meeting with the pastor by DC, and yet the pastor is never available to meet. This has been going on for weeks now. I'm afraid my patience would have worn thin ages ago!
After the "monkey business" meeting, SG was heard telling a group of people, "I can't be accessible to 30,000 people!" I guess he can't even be accessible to a dozen.
proverbs,
I know that group of men too and you are 100% correct - David Coombs promised a meeting and to date, nothing has been scheduled.
I feel it was a ploy to placate until the sheep get too worn out to fight anymore, but that's my own personal opinion.
NASS,
If Steve made himself available to the ones trying to implement Matthew 18 he wouldn't have had to make himself available to 30,000. That's the part I STILL don't get - Matthew 18 is one on one; then witnesses are brought in - it's not like a huge mob want to meet personally with him. Besides now that he has "Firewall" Coombs in place, he can stay behind the curtain and run the show from on high.
Karen: You are not alone! I am hoping to hear back from Jon regarding our questions, aren't you?
You must admit, this was a brilliant move. To change the strategy from portraist to scripture; from man to segments of the scripture.
I wouldn't take it personally. I think it was just a desperate move to try another approach because no one responded to the big photos.
It looks very "spiritual". Never mind that these scriptures are talking about believers only and not the unsaved world to whom they are trying to appeal.
I feel like Ophelia Ford, but how DUUUMMMMBBBB can you be to pay for a billboard with the wrong scripture reference? I'm sure they didn't mean James 5:9! That's about the Judge standing at the door - surely they didn't want that verse. I'm sure God has a chuckle that the glaring mistake.
I still love those billboards in California that say:
"You think it's hot here?"
"Don't make me come down there"
"When you curse, use your own name"
They are all signed - GOD
Cracked me up but I still got the message.
karen
"I totally agree with your last post, but who the heck does Bellevue have proofreading final decision over there if they can't get a scripture reference correct? Regardless of the out of context usage of the scripture, isn't just BAD all the way around when a church can't get the scripture reference correct?"
Karen, I hate to be obnoxious but has everyone checked every single translation known to man to make sure? (Just kidding)
Quite frankly, my guess is that they are trying to get the billboard down by now. It was obviously someone in the communications dept that did not check the verse and allowed that through.
But getting a billboard down does not happen overnight. That is why getting it right is crucial not to mention expensive. (Your tithe dollars at work)
However, I am more concerned with the proof texting than anything else.
At my former mega, I saw lots of things like this. No problem...lots of money. I once saw them throw out a 3500.00 banner because the 'blue' was not right. And that was with a chain of proof readers/sign off's etc. (There was always a fight over who had last say!)
We have become the Church of Laodicea because we CAN afford such expensive mistakes in the first place. I say that not flippantly but I cannot help but think of the poor pastors in India who can barely feed their families because they lift up the Name of Christ. But we can afford billboards that are incorrect.
If we are going to proclaim the Word of God on a billboard, let us at least not prooftext it and get the scripture reference correct.
But can I ask a stupid question? What is the point of putting up a billboard saying, "Let us pray for one another"? Think about it...are they asking non believers to pray for one another? Can someone explain the point of the billboard to me? I know we are all immersed in the feel good platitudes of seeker and PDL, but think for a moment about what these billboards are really trying to communicate. Where is the gospel proclaimed at all? And what is the point if it is not proclaimed? Z(That was not a spear but a doctrinal question)
lin said...
Karen, I hate to be obnoxious but has everyone checked every single translation known to man to make sure? (Just kidding)
Awww, go ahead be obnoxious! Works for me! :)
The waste of money is evident here and I'm sure they will get around to changing it - the fees for events at Bellevue have been risen and yet they squander money with getting the verse wrong! I'm glad you're here to enlighten us with the "mega trends", Lin. I've been living in a polarized condition (as long as it didn't affect me personally, I'd didn't care about it) for so long and for you to bring the truth and dispel the rumor that all is well in the SBC (or in churches in general) is a breath of fresh air. I've sometimes choked on the revelations you've brought out, but for the most part, shock is the verb I've used most. Thanks for opening our eyes to the "trends of the megas"!
karen
HELP!
We are NOT living in the days of the KINGS! Please! A pastor is NOT a political king! He is NOT a JEW ANOINTED BY SAMUEL! In those days the KING AND THE PRIESTHOOD WERE SEPARATED` The King did not have direct access to God, he had to go to the Priest or Prophet! Where does this horrid idea come from that a pastor is a King of Israel and God's anointed? This is FALSE DOCTRINE.
We live in the church age. The Lord Jesus Christ has made it abundantaly clear that a PASTOR, NOT A KING is to be a SERVANT. That one part of the Body of Christ is NEVER more important than the other AND EVERY PART OF THE BODY IS TO BE IN SUBMISSION TO ECAH OTHER. That includes the pastor! He is to submit to everyone else and he is held more accountable than anyone else.
In God's economy, the more you want to become a leader, the more of a SERVANT you must be!
SUBMISSION IS NOT DEMANDED IT IS GIVEN OUT OF LOVE FOR THE HEAD SERVANT AS A GIFT OF LOVE!
Where does all this false teaching and claiming power and authority come from? It is NOT from God!
Jon L. Estes,
As a Baptist preacher from North Carolina, why would you blog without knowing what the truth is?
Are you bent towards being a pastor that rules with an iron fist and your resent any Christian brother or sister asking any questions in your church?
I'm confused.
Have you sent letters to Steve Gaines, Mark Dougharty, David Coombs, Harry Smith, Steve Tucker, John Caldwell, Jeff Arnold Jr, Brian Miller, Jim Angel, Phil Weather Wax, Phil Newberry, and others in leadership why they don't show grace?
If you have already done so, I'd like to know.
Otherwise, a man who speaks about something they have little knowledge of is not using good judgement.
"Lin. I've been living in a polarized condition (as long as it didn't affect me personally, I'd didn't care about it)..."
I would still be living there, too but for the Grace of God.
Who brought the pastor to Bellevue? I'm asking because I really do not know. Was it man? Or was it God? It seems to me that man was Not going to take no for an answer. Everything was so secretive, undercover. There were many warning signs and posts along the way. Did the Lord give us the pastor we insisted on having because we would not take no for an answer? A breaking of a "covenant" had to take place; an insult to the face took place; an admission that everything we did was wrong was told to us up front. Why did the "search" committee not blink at all the red flags before calling this pastor?
And now we have the king we wanted instead of the man God wanted? Is this what God wanted for Bellevue? Look at who it is who has been Driven OUT.
He is not a king of the church. He is not a CEO HE IS TO BE THE LEAST OF ALL, A SERVANT!
This could be 100% wrong, but that is what it appears to be.
Karen said,
the fees for events at Bellevue have been risen
Reply: Just this week, the cost of Mentos in the Bellevue Bookstore was raised from $.50 to $.75.
Just FYI. :^)
Please excuse me. I'll just take my little soap-box and go home. It is so frustrating when you hear from those who conted that the sheep are under a king, a ceo a ruler. The only King the sheep have is God. Yes, we submit to authority and that is part of the Christian daily walk, but believe me, this thing in church has been twisted by those in authority all out of perspective and the lie is used as a battering ram against the innocent sheep to smack them into a "power and control" game.
Be still,
Sign of the Apocalypse! Mentos for $.75! Well, I never! :)
Actually, I was referring to the fees for Women's Ministry have risen and I've talked to youth parents who said the cost of events is becoming astronomical - based on your income level "astronomical" is a relative term -
But thanks for the heads up on those Mentos! ;)
Power and control and submission are given. To demand it is of the enemy. To give it in grace out of the love of God is something so different. It does not even begin to look like what we've been experiencing.
There is a difference between bondage and freedom in Christ.
A pastor is NOT A KING as it is being defined. We are all, ALL priest kings in Christ.
By the way, ALL my posts were directed to Jon L Estes
Preach on Rod! I'm enjoying it. And you're right - we got exactly what we asked for as far as Steve coming to Bellevue. Or as I've said, what we didn't pray for.
Considering PW was in charge of the praying for the search committee, it's no wonder we're in the predicament we're in. How ironic that PW prayed for Steve to come here and it was under Steve's tenure that PW was finally found out. See, karma will get you (ok, so not karma, but you know what I mean!)
karen
NBBC: Jon,
Could you then please help me to understand what one is to do when confronted with a situation like this, i.e. with a pastor who beats his sheep, doesn't follow Scripture, and from all appearances doesn't care who he rolls over just as long as he holds on to his big salary and position of power?
Jon: I wish there were an easy answer. Since I have spoken of the life of David maybe we can ask what he did as Saul became abusive, ugly and downright destructive. One of the obvious things he did, was to leave the city until Saul was no longer in charge (God dealt with Him).
Some questions which each of us must ask ourselves.
1 - Is BBC where God has called me to serve Him?
2 - If so, am I serving Him as He has called?
3 - If God is not going to move SG, will God please move me?
4 - No matter how much I love BBC and have invested in her (actually the work of the Lord which can be done in many churches in the Memphis area) can I separate my emotional attachment so I can once again find the joy God wants me to know?
Does "extending grace" mean simply ignoring everything and saying, "Let God take care of it"?
Jon: Not at all but we must continually be checking to make sure our approach and words spoken (especially on this forum) demonstrate God's grace. The things being said here, would they be things Christ would say here? If not, then what must be done?
If so, then to me this is no different than Steve Gaines letting a confessed child molester stay on staff for six months, putting the congregation in potential danger.
Jon: I agree this was wrong, very wrong and there should be procedures in place to follow if such happened. It seems there was not, therefore there is no structure to follow just quips and quotes about what should be done. The leadership got to write the rules on this one, if they are not workable and are not going to be made right, I would leave, immediately to keep my family safe.
He said it was "under the blood," so he had no need to take action. Is that what we, as Christians, are to do? Turn our heads and say nothing?
Jon: I would agree it is under the blood but earthly consequences still must be paid for the earthly sin. There should not be a statute of limitations, but there is and there is not much anyone can do about the sexual wrong, now. What I have found sad is the making of SG actions more atrocious than those of the molester.
As far as I'm concerned, this "touch not mine anointed" stuff is a man-made perversion of Scripture implemented by men like Steve Gaines and their followers who are either blinded by power and money or just plain blinded in general.
Jon: I remember way back when Paige Patterson was being crucified by the folk at 1st Baptist and was fired. A meeting took place at DFW, the last person to arrive was Dr. Rogers. When he entered the room people knew he would speak and what he spoke should be heeded. He spoke on this issue, that God will deal harshly towards those who seek to to harm God's anointed. Take that for what it is worth.
They've turned the Bible into a club with which to beat the sheep into submission.
Jon: This is sad and wrong. The difference between me and a real sheep is that I have a mind which can make decisions for myself and my family. I would leave if this were happening to me.
And about the "mad" part -- I'm not saying SG is "mad" in that sense of the word (which is why I asked Lin to define "mad" yesterday), but if it were to become obvious that he were, would it be our place to simply ignore it and let him continue? I don't understand.
Jon: Ask yourself, what did David do in such a situation?
Instead of couching it in generalized terms like "throwing spears," could you give us some examples of how one would go about dealing with this situation in the proper, Biblical way?
Jon: I believe the hardest thing to overcome is the present structure the church has in speaking to issues and bringing harmony. I wish the pastor would sit down and address all the concerns for the sake of the church and the gospel. Knowing this will not happen what should we do? Bottom line for me is to do all that we do in truth and grace. If I could not do that I would put myself in a place where I could. God does not want us beaten down but lifted up. He wants us to be fed.
I had a favorite eating place which changed its menu and atmosphere. I now have a new favorite place.
BBC is not he final place of worship for me or anyone.
allofgrace said...
jon estes,
Let me be sure I have your point straight...the mad king (spear chunker) may chunk his spears with impunity, since he is the Lord's annointed...but if he's called to account by the recipients of his spears...with a little less than grace...then it's they alone who are in the wrong?
Jon: No, he chunks spears because he is mad not because he is anointed. If you, as an anointed child of God chooses to chunk spears you would be doing so after the order of Saul.
fogmachine said...
Jon L. Estes,
As a Baptist preacher from North Carolina, why would you blog without knowing what the truth is?
Jon: I know what is being said by you and others on this forum and it is that which I address. It is the fruit you are bearing that I judge. I know you are hurt and I hurt with and for you but to not handle this time in truth and grace is wrong. If your words posted against SG are in grace, please help me understand.
[1] Are you bent towards being a pastor that rules with an iron fist and your resent any Christian brother or sister asking any questions in your church?
[2] I'm confused.
Jon: [1] Not at all. [2] I'm sorry.
Have you sent letters to Steve Gaines, Mark Dougharty, David Coombs, Harry Smith, Steve Tucker, John Caldwell, Jeff Arnold Jr, Brian Miller, Jim Angel, Phil Weather Wax, Phil Newberry, and others in leadership why they don't show grace?
If you have already done so, I'd like to know.
Jon: This information is between those people and myself, thank you for allowing me to keep it there.
Otherwise, a man who speaks about something they have little knowledge of is not using good judgement.
Jon: I know about this forum and that is to which I speak.
Jon,
What you said is very eloquent and good and fine, but until it happens to you personally, I would hope you wouldn't turn your back on the church you've loved for so long. Please remember, the church we speak of is not referring to the building - it's the fellowships, friendships, Sunday School classes, choirs, any other ministry you may participate in. To give all that up over the arrogance and ineptness of the new leadership is TOUGH! I know you'll say you can get involved in the same ministries at another church, but that would be contrite. I know I'll sound like a whiney 4 year old, but I still don't understand why SO MANY PEOPLE have to leave to satisfy 1 GUY! Really if it comes down to brass tacks - it's the congregational unity vs. what Steve Gaines wants and that's it. Why should we leave what we have grown and nurtured as a "Family of Friends"? Why can't Steve leave and start his own fellowship then anyone who joins it know what they getting when they join - unless like us, who discovered what we got wasn't what we bargained for.
Karen,
You stated: Really if it comes down to brass tacks - it's the congregational unity vs. what Steve Gaines wants and that's it.
Jon: If that's it then you know what you have? I would not want that.
Why should we leave what we have grown and nurtured as a "Family of Friends"?
Jon: Are you where God wants you, then serve Him.
Why can't Steve leave and start his own fellowship then anyone who joins it know what they getting when they join - unless like us, who discovered what we got wasn't what we bargained for.
Jon: Could it be that SG truly believes God called him there and is holding on because of that? If SG believes this I imagine he will not leave. Where does that leave you? He may have enough support to ride this out and build what he believes God has called him to build. Where does this leave you?
My prayers are with you.
NO PROCEDURES IN PLACE??????
This is the one thing I comment on from Jon.
Whatever was "IN PLACE" when Bro R brought a deacon before the church when he committed adultery,
when M.Carrier was suppose to be for cheating both the church and on his family but would not show up,
when a staff person was fired,
The same "procedures" were still in place
UNLESS the elders we didnt know we had changed them behind our backs and without a vote.
The only "procedure" needed ...
the scriptural qualifications for a minister...
Jon L. Estes,
What do you know of that isn't being said on this blog in truth?
Also, what if Steve Gaines is a fraud? What if Steve Gaines was never called into the ministry? These are things you have no knowledge of. You don't have a clue what lies behind the curtain here.
The reason the church in America is in such bad shape today is because it's easier to say nothing and to move on when sin is in the camp.
How long have you been pastor at Jackson Park Baptist Church? Is it your responsibility to maintain the website? How did you come to know about this blog? Is pastoring a fulltime job for you? I notice you have your own blogs as well.
Karen
I agree. And meanwhile those that are left are being brainwashed to follow a man instead of Christ. The measuring stick at Bellevue is your loyalty and support of the PASTOR, not Christ. How scary. Our kids and teens are extrememy susceptible to this false teaching.
I know people in the youth who are there because they feel like those kids need some solid teaching - the kids don't have a choice about staying.
gmommy
My husband and I talked with a BBC minister who said that he and other ministers carried a CARD that gave prodedure to follow in these instances. This was NOT uncharted at all. These folks were educated about what to do. That they were not is a LIE.
lin wrote:
"What is the point of putting up a billboard saying, "Let us pray for one another"? Think about it...are they asking non believers to pray for one another? Can someone explain the point of the billboard to me? I know we are all immersed in the feel good platitudes of seeker and PDL, but think for a moment about what these billboards are really trying to communicate. Where is the gospel proclaimed at all? And what is the point if it is not proclaimed?"
Well, Mr. Mike Bratton wrote me personally and offered this explanation (along with his usual barrage of platitudes and cutesy bastardization of the names of groups with whose opinions he doesn't agree):
"It's Scripture on highway billboards--picked, no doubt, to encourage people to drive more courteously."
How about "Do unto others... "? To me that one would have been a lot more appropriate if that was the intended purpose.
And don't bother to write me again, Mr. Bratton. (I know you read this blog.) Your name is now on my e-mail filter list so any future messages from you will automatically go into my "special" file.
I am not trying to "SAVE BBC" anymore....
the BBC we knew and served in is GONE.
The fact that the R family has left speaks very clearly to that!
But we are speaking against false teaching,lies,deceit,breaking of the law....mostly and above all for me personally
because the truth must be told and lies exposed because we are to alert/protect our weaker brother.
Where in the Bible does it say to put duct tape on your mouth, lower your head and walk away??????
Jon, you seem nicer but you are using part of the same script.
"It's Scripture on highway billboards--picked, no doubt, to encourage people to drive more courteously."
Piglet says:
No doubt? Silly me! How could I have missed that.....Jesus came that we might "drive courteously". I'm so glad that Mike cleared this up for us. :)
lin wrote:
"Quite frankly, my guess is that they are trying to get the billboard down by now. It was obviously someone in the communications dept that did not check the verse and allowed that through.
"But getting a billboard down does not happen overnight. That is why getting it right is crucial not to mention expensive. (Your tithe dollars at work)"
Maybe the pastor will order one of his fellow fence jumpers to shimmy up the ladder with a bucket of white paint and make that little correction. Let's see. MD is gone, so CT and JC should be expecting a call any day now. That itty bitty fence was good practice, but that was nothing compared to this! Harness up, gentlemen!
Jon L. Estes said...
My prayers are with you.
Jon,
I very much apreciate the spirit and attitude you have shown in your posts. You've raised good and valid points, responded with grace to the questions posed to you, and have demonstrated compassion for those who are struggling and hurting through this situation. Not everyone is going to agree with your conclusions or advice, but I think we (including the trolls who come along to beat up on the regulars here) can all learn from your approach. May God bless you as you seek to serve Him.
"It's Scripture on highway billboards--picked, no doubt, to encourage people to drive more courteously."
Ohhhh, now I get it - like the Vatican coming out with their new 10 Commandments for Driving - didn't know how we could have all been so stupid! Gee thanks, Mike for your end and and be all opinion - from Birmingham!
karen (ROFL!)
Okay, I adnit I am completely perplexed. I wrote a long statement to Jon and received no response. Having gone through a church split over PDL principles, I am very curious how other pastors feel about the lack of complete teaching of the scriptures. Rod is right: we are in the church age. Fog Machine is right: "The reason the church in America is in such bad shape today is because it's easier to say nothing and to move on when sin is in the camp." Truth has to be stood for. Who is SG to say people have been "called away from" BBC when instead they have been told to leave by leadership? Why is it wrong to request accountability and integrity (over and over again) from church leadership?
Piglet,
Scary that we're pretty much posted the same thing! SPOOOKKYY!!
The meeting mentioned earlier has actually taken place
after much effort on the part of the men seeking truth and reconciliation.
Since I was not present,I will not give the details but the suspicions
posted were correct.
ruth said
The meeting mentioned earlier has actually taken place
after much effort on the part of the men seeking truth and reconciliation.
Piglet says:
This is true - except that Steve Gaines did NOT grace these men with his presence, as Coombs had previously suggested he would. He sent others to face these men. Are we shocked?
I would have been shocked had he actually MET with these men as previously planned. (sigh)
Ruth:
Let me claer up a little bit of confusion.
A meeting did take place last week with the group of men in question, but not with Dr. Gaines in attendance. We were only able to meet with David Coombs, Steve Markum, Chip Freeman and Ken Hatley.
We have requested a meeting with Dr. Gaines and David Coombs promised to try to arrange a meeting, but made no promise that he would be able to do so.
Jon: I do appreciate the spirit you have shown here; I guess I'd like some answers to specific questions. Why is the SBC not concerned with the poor decisions, lack of integrity, misuse of funds, breaking of by-laws, breaking the law and general poor behavior of the leader of a mega-church? Why is it the fault of those who disagree, like many on this blog?
Dear Brother Jon: I have read many of your comments and fully understand where you are coming from. However, I do have some concerns about this statement of yours: "....and there is not much anyone can do about the sexual wrong." There is much that CAN and should be done.
There were procedures in place as far back as 2001/2002 to handle situations like this one at Bellevue. The leadership did not follow it. The investigative committee was made aware of that fact.
At the SBC this year a first, tiny but major step was taken when they passed the "Steve Gaines motion." I am so glad they passed it but not about naming it after the pastor. That was what the messengers were calling it on the floor in San Antonio. But he brought that on himself by his lame excuses and inactions.
There is much we can and should be doing. We cannot let this crime to continue to thrive with leaders that make excuse and refuse to accept responsibility. As for the pedophiles; since prison is out for most of these evil monsters, how about ankle bracelets, being put on the sexual offender registry for starters? Oh what about surrender of their license to the ministry forever?
Trust me I am full of grace but I will not stand by and be stupid enough to allow them around children alone. NEVER.
I wish more ministers would speak out as Wade Burlison has about this horrible evil. Brother Jon will you help us?
David Brown
SNAP Coordinator: Memphis/West Tennessee
be-still-and-know wrote:
"Just this week, the cost of Mentos in the Bellevue Bookstore was raised from $.50 to $.75."
Note to self: Topic idea for the next thread!
Karen: You've got mail.
:)
piglet said...
I would have been shocked had he actually MET with these men as previously planned. (sigh)
It should be obvious by now that Gaines does not face tough questions. The only time I can remember him talking to the media was the "interview" where he glowingly reminisced about Jerry Falwell. Hardball questions were definitely off the table.
Jon Estes,
I concur with "junk's" 12:07 p.m. sentiments. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on some points, but I appreciate your spirit and compassion towards us. It just goes to show Christians can disagree without being disagreeable.
I'd also encourage you to carefully consider David Brown's 12:25 p.m. comments. Please be an example of the kind of pastor who knows the right thing to do -- and does it. This is not a problem that is going to go away, and it will only get worse if we ignore it. Encourage and educate your fellow pastors, your flock, and the SBC leadership. Be a part of the solution -- please!
If Steve Gaines is " God's Annointed", then I'm a grasshopper.
be-still-and-know said...
Karen said,
the fees for events at Bellevue have been risen
Reply: Just this week, the cost of Mentos in the Bellevue Bookstore was raised from $.50 to $.75.
JTB's Reply: I had some of those $.75 Mentos and they don't taste as good as the $.50 Mentos. I wonder why the $.25 increase?
Is that extra $.25 going to the billboard ministry?
Maybe they should increase the Mentos to a $1.00 and use the extra $.50 for a proofreader for the billboard bible verses. : )
New BBC Open Forum said...
Just keeping such a ridiculous list in the first place is childish.
1 Cor 13:4a,5b: "Love ... keeps no record of wrongs."
I'd better shut up now, before a troll points out that there have been a few lists of wrongs posted on this blog ...
:)
Karen said...
I feel like Ophelia Ford, but how DUUUMMMMBBBB can you be to pay for a billboard with the wrong scripture reference? I'm sure they didn't mean James 5:9! That's about the Judge standing at the door - surely they didn't want that verse. I'm sure God has a chuckle that the glaring mistake.
Are we sure it was a mistake? Maybe a dissenter withing the ranks on staff used the wrong reference on purpose (making a point about God's judgment).
Or maybe the mistake was made by outside of Bellevue's control, like by the billboard company.
Either way, maybe what is seen by men as a mistake is exactly what God intended to communicate all along.
:)
Here's an email excerpt from someone who emails me because he's been banned (aren't I the lucky one?). I've omitted the ugly stuff he wrote about my Christian walk:
The 1st question is from the Admin Pastor's FAQ page:
Why don't we use billboards around the city and county to spread the Gospel?
The church has contracted for four billboards throughout the city. Two billboards are on Bellevue's property. One faces west and the other east along the heavily traveled I-40 corridor. The church has two other billboards that rotate every 60 days to a new location around the city. The church uses the billboards primarily to encourage people to visit Bellevue to hear and receive the Gospel. Experts tell us a billboard message must be read in six seconds. That leaves only time for a basic inspirational thought and invitation.
Karen,
The above was copied from the Adm. Pastor's website. It was a summary of the questions asked during the budget meeting where one dissenter asked "why don't we put Bible verses rather than pictures on the billboards?". By the way the church pays nothing for the use of the billboards. We get them free because we have allowed our church property to be used for three billboards. We also have the approval to limit the type ads placed on those billboards. Again, let's not let a little truth get in the way of rebellion.
It's karen again - FREE? Please don't tell me they wrinkle their noses and these billboards appear by magic. Somebody had to do the artwork and somebody had to put them up - ain't nothing FREE! One last thing: I don't care if they are free or not, having a wrong scripture is still inexcusable or deliberate. (Good point Junk!)
Lin said...
What is the point of putting up a billboard saying, "Let us pray for one another"?
For both of these billoards, the following possibilities come to mind:
(1) They are a sincere attempt to encourage believers to put scripture into practice.
(2) They are an attempt to club the sheep with the Word and make folks feel guilty for not agreeing with the leadership. ("You people shouldn't be causing al this trouble, you should just get along with and pray for each other.")
(3) They are a hypocritial attempt to give the impression to those outside Bellevue that all is well.
Sad that things are such that we can't just assume it is (1).
be-still-and-know said...
Just this week, the cost of Mentos in the Bellevue Bookstore was raised from $.50 to $.75.
Is this a confirmed fact or just another example of the RUMORS, HATE, and LIES spewed forth on the blog EVERY DAY??
(Sorry, I think I was just channeling the ghost of a banned troll.)
Regardless, they are still a delicious and refreshing bargain at 75 cents.
Picture a commercial with four guys climbing and stumbling over a fence while one of them manages to hold on to a pack of Mentos and we hear ""Doo doo doo doo, doo-doo, do-Wah! It doesn't matter what comes, fresh goes better in life, with Mentos, fresh and full of life. Nothing gets to you, staying fresh staying cool, with Mentos, fresh and full of life. Fresh goes better, Mentos freshness, fresh goes better with Mentos, fresh and full of life! Mentos, the freshmaker!"
junk,
Step away from the keyboard - you gone to that dark place again! :)
karen
sickofthelies said...
If Steve Gaines is " God's Annointed", then I'm a grasshopper.
"When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave."
See Numbers 13:33.
fogmachine said...Jon L. Estes,
What do you know of that isn't being said on this blog in truth?
Jon: When did I say anything you state is not truth. My point was the balance of grace, which is missing.
Also, what if Steve Gaines is a fraud? What if Steve Gaines was never called into the ministry? These are things you have no knowledge of. You don't have a clue what lies behind the curtain here.
Jon: Do you have knowledge of these things? Do you know what lies behind the curtain? Are you being graceful towards SG, even when he does not deserve it, as Christ was towards us when we did not deserve it?
The reason the church in America is in such bad shape today is because it's easier to say nothing and to move on when sin is in the camp.
Jon: I disagree.
Your vote for SG was really a vote for the pulpit committee and the trust you placed in them.
How long have you been pastor at Jackson Park Baptist Church? Is it your responsibility to maintain the website? How did you come to know about this blog? Is pastoring a fulltime job for you? I notice you have your own blogs as well.
Jon: Long enough to know what I am doing. I maintain part of the church web site. I have been in the ministry since 1979.
This blog is being talked about by many people outside BBC. Some are crying over the stuff said, others laughing that the flagship church of the SBC is sinking. it matters to me what others think of you and BBC. Nd right now many think BBC and those who operate and post on this blog are a farce.
It is not my intent to debate you and I apologize for bringing an offense. I simply wanted to let you know that truth without grace is legalism and grace without truth is liberalism. The need for both to be demonstrated at all times is important to our witness.
concernedSBCer said...
Jon: I do appreciate the spirit you have shown here; I guess I'd like some answers to specific questions. Why is the SBC not concerned with the poor decisions, lack of integrity, misuse of funds, breaking of by-laws, breaking the law and general poor behavior of the leader of a mega-church? Why is it the fault of those who disagree, like many on this blog?
I am not placing fault on anyone but am directing my comments towards those speaking. I'll take my issues with SG up with him.
The SBC can not get involved because of autonomy, unless asked by the church, properly.
Sorry I have to cut this short, I need to get back to Ridgecrest to be with our teens. I had to come back for a funeral.
I love BBC and each person who posts here, that is why I say what I say and I hope it is in truth and grace.
In HIS Grip,
Jon L. Estes
Jon wrote: Could it be that SG truly believes God called him there and is holding on because of that? If SG believes this I imagine he will not leave. Where does that leave you? He may have enough support to ride this out and build what he believes God has called him to build. Where does this leave you?"
Friend, you have to ignore lots of scripture believe that. The 'church' is not a business organization with coalitions of support. Christ is the Head of the church. All believers are priests now and have ONE High Priest...Christ and His Word.
At least, that is what being a Baptist used to mean.
Matthew 23
9And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant.
I love it that these pastors come by the blog to try and help us - I can think of 3 off the top of my head. Seriously, these pastors are truly trying to help us - and our own pastor won't even meet with a small group of men to try to resolve the issues we've blogged about for months. Not sure whether to laugh or cry at that one. If churches around the SBC really care about the "Flagship" of BBC, why aren't they flooding the switchbored or packing the mailbox at Bellevue to register their vote as to whether or not our pastor is doing things of the Lord, not according to the Gospel of St. Steve. You people who haven't lived this nightmare have NO CLUE as to what St. Steve has put some of the membership through - NO CLUE! And for you to pop in one day to chastise us for our bad blogging behavior is just another slap in the face. For those of us trying to find the new right church for us, it sure is disheartening to see other pastors coming around to let us know they could do it better. AHHHH!
I'll stop be for I "go there"!!! :(
Karen: It bothers me too that people are laughing at what is happening at BBC. For the life of me I can't see a thing funny about it. People seeking truth are being told to leave their long-time church home (that they were called to) while someone who has shown very little integrity is allowed to run amuck with no consequences at all. It is beyond me.
Jon said "I simply wanted to let you know that truth without grace is legalism and grace without truth is liberalism."
....and leadership not following the truth in scripture is dictatorship, not being a servant shepherd.
Concerned:
Did you send me an email? If so, I haven't received it.
karen
Karen: I just tried again.
Concernedsbcer said,
....and leadership not following the truth in scripture is dictatorship, not being a servant shepherd.
reply: VERY well said.
Nass and GMommy: You've got mail.
:)
Jon said, "The SBC can not get involved because of autonomy, unless asked by the church, properly."
I understand this reasoning, truly I do....but the entire SBC is being impacted by disobedience in the ranks. There are stories upon stories of SBC churches dealing with sexual abuse cases, with falling membership, with corrupt leadership. If someone doesn't step up to the plate soon, I've gotta wonder how viable the SBC is going to be in a few years. God doesn't take lightly leading others astray.
I've posted this before but after Jon's disturbing "The SBC can not get involved because of autonomy, unless asked by the church, properly" quote I can't think of anything original to say. If the SBC won't help us, who will?
The story of Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, And Nobody
This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done
jon l. estes said...
This blog is being talked about by many people outside BBC. Some are crying over the stuff said, others laughing that the flagship church of the SBC is sinking. it matters to me what others think of you and BBC. Nd right now many think BBC and those who operate and post on this blog are a farce.
Reply: Jon, I believe your motives are pure and I also believe you have a right spirit in what you say. I am not sure I agree with you. But regards whether we agree or not, what people say about this blog and, I speak for myself alone,
what they say about me concerns me very little.
It is not my intention to make other believers cry or others laugh at what is posted here. What is all boils down to is NOT "our beloved Bellevue being gone"!
It IS about integrity in the leadership. It is about being faithful to the Word of God. It is about holding people accountable to God's standard of holy, rightous living. To rightly divide God's Word, and not misuse it.
To be good stewards of God's money & not blow it on unscriptural things.
The things we are fighting for are biblical principles that previous Pastors/leaders taught us. Biblical principles that are written in black ink on white paper!
Just because Dr. Rogers has gone home, doesn't mean those principles are no longer valid? No! A thousand times NO! God's Word is God's word and we must hold the leadership accountable.
It grieves me for the world to see all this but Matthew 18 was tried many times, to no avail.
You say you are inspecting our fruit but if we inspect our leadership's fruit, we get a long distant spear sent our way saying we are being childish.
This blog in not for entertainment. The leadership blocks our voice from being heard, so we have to use this blog.
I am not worried about the "flagship of the SBC" sinking. This is God's church and we are His people. God can do what he wishes with it. HE raised it up and HE can bring it down. Nothing happens without His permission.
Standing up for God's Word and God's standard for ministers/leadership is worth fighting for.
I do receive your message of grace with the spirit it was intended.
When Jesus drove out the moneychangers in the temple, did He throw spears? You see brother, when you send $25,000 to a church that supports abortion and female pastors, something is wrong in the temple! That is $25,000 that he church DIDN'T vote on.
The list goes on.
Laugh, cry, ridicule...makes no difference to me. This battle is worth the cost. If we let this go and just walk away, we are letting down those who have gone before us.Those who have fought for truth...God's truth. I believe we would be letting down God who has called us to be a lighthouse. We fight against those who try to put the light out.
For those who think this is a farse....get ready...it will be coming to a church near YOU!!!
Jon said....
I am not placing fault on anyone but am directing my comments towards those speaking. I'll take my issues with SG up with him.
Jon,
I advise you not to hold you breath on getting in to see Steve, but you can pack a lunch and take a number.
JohntheBaptist: Thank you. Amen and Amen.
"Jon wrote: Do you have knowledge of these things? Do you know what lies behind the curtain? Are you being graceful towards SG, even when he does not deserve it, as Christ was towards us when we did not deserve it?"
Jon, are you not concerned for your brother's eternal life? When there is 'continual' willful sin (Hebrews 10 and 1 John) and ignoring and twisting of the Word...shouldn't you be concerned?
"This blog is being talked about by many people outside BBC. Some are crying over the stuff said, others laughing that the flagship church of the SBC is sinking. it matters to me what others think of you and BBC."
Why does it matter what others think? Where are all the people who care about truth? I would rather stand with a minority who care for scriptural truth and are laughed at and made fun of.
" Nd right now many think BBC and those who operate and post on this blog are a farce."
Why could this possibly matter? Are you impressed by mere men, Jon?
"It is not my intent to debate you and I apologize for bringing an offense."
That is a strange thing to say after saying this blog is a farce. You certainly got your 'spears' in first, though.
" I simply wanted to let you know that truth without grace is legalism and grace without truth is liberalism."
I am not sure I understand you, Jon. Some truths are just negative. Period. A group of men and women from the church have approached Gaines about everything and have been rebuffed and lied to. Do you accuse Jesus of lacking grace with the Pharisees, too?
Gaines is a false teacher. He is a wolf. We are to contend for the faith.
"The need for both to be demonstrated at all times is important to our witness."
Contending for the truth of scripture is GRACE. And when a pastor says that the qualifications of an elder laid out in Timothy are merely 'guidelines', there is a huge problem.
Jon, earlier in a comment you posted something about Rogers, Patterson, etc at DFW. I want you to know that name dropping does not impress me at all unless it is the Name of Christ.
BTW: After what Patterson did to Dr. Sheri Klouda, I have little respect for him, either. She was shown NO grace, my friend.
I have a request of you and other pastors and SBC leaders reading this: Please clean up your own camp. Rebuke your brothers. Stand for truth of scripture and for basic justice.
Lin,
Can I be you when I grow up? I meant exactly what you so eloquently wrote.
karen
Lin: I'm with Karen. Excellent.
BTW...you've got mail.
:)
Jon: One more thing......you and all those watching this blog and thinking it is a farce need to know something important. I have grown and studied and been challenged more on this blog than I have been at church in a long time. I've also received more encouragement, love and support and yes, GRACE, here than you can imagine. My fellow brothers and sisters in Christ search for truth, study scriptures IN CONTEXT and hold each other accountable. I will stand alone, and I will stand with the truthseekers on this blog, for the Truth of the scriptures and my Savior.
Karen: I replied. :)
concerned,
Don't forget in your list that a SBC church with 2,700 members in Decatur, GA just hired a woman to be their senior pastor.
1 Sam 16:1 And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.
Saul lost his "anointing" before David was anointed. One way to look at it is that David did not know Saul lost his anointing.....God sure gave him a lot of opportunities to cut his head off.......when he would not do it, God got the job done through other means....
Good posts AOG, Rod, Lin.
It is odd that we use Kings to promote our ideas of what our relationship with the pastor should be..........
In the NT we are brothers, friends, sons of God. Priests.....
As we have said before....you just can't get any more anointed than anointed with the Holy Spirit. Somehow we just can't seem to grasp that. If we are anointed with the Holy Spirit, becoming a servant is the only thing to do......
When a servant acts like a king........
Grace, yes. I've been shown forgiveness right here on this blog time and time again. I've recieved forgiveness in both big and small things. Even when the worst comes out in me, the good brothers and sisters here have loved me through it. So it's my turn to say thank you for showing the Lord's grace to one who is often ungraceful and sometimes more than a little hard to love.
So thank you my blog friends. And I love you too. Just sayin.
oc.
Fogmachine: I missed that memo....come again?
A local church did that about 10 years ago and was graciously asked to leave the SBC.
concerned,
Baptist Megachurch Makes History Electing Woman to Pulpit
Julie Pennington-Russell was voted on Sunday to become senior pastor of an Atlanta-area megachurch. The historic decision--that went without dispute--makes the congregation the largest church of Southern Baptist heritage to be led by a woman.
by Audrey Barrick, Christian Post Reporter
June. 19, 2007
I always thought it was really hard for a woman to be "husband of one wife."
concernedsbcer wrote:
"I always thought it was really hard for a woman to be "'husband of one wife.'"
Kind of hard for an unmarried man to meet that one, too.
Yep, you are right.
:)
I have to disagree with y'all on this one! One example: Bill Clinton! ;)
johnthebaptist said...
If we let this go and just walk away, we are letting down those who have gone before us.Those who have fought for truth...God's truth. I believe we would be letting down God who has called us to be a lighthouse. We fight against those who try to put the light out.
I recall very well the kinds of remarks that were made about Adrian Rogers and Bellevue by Southern Baptists and others when Dr. Rogers became president of the SBC and began the move of the denomination back towards a more theologically conservative stance. He was branded a trouble maker, disloyal to the denomination, factious, etc. ... and those who agreed with him were called legalists, not committed to Baptist principles like local church autonomy and cooperation, lacking grace, etc.
Bellevue would never have had its unique position in SB life if not for the unpopular stands that Dr. Rogers took for truth, even when it meant that he would be attacked and criticized and ridiculed by those in positions of power at the time. He didn't stand for truth because it was easy or convenient or made him popular ... at the time he was first elected, he was one of the most hated men in SB life by many, many denominational leaders. He was accused of trying to destroy the convention, creating disunity, focusing on secondary matters, etc. Dr. Rogers didn't help lead the SBC back to a firm commitment to the inerrancy of the Bible because he wanted power or prestige ... he could have had those things a lot easier by going along with those he stood against at the time, because they were the ones running everything.
I remember it all so well. I had friends on both sides of the issues, as did he. I saw him respond to the spears thrown at him with love and kindness and an arm always extended to those on the other side of the fence to come along and work together with a mutual commitment to believe and obey God's word as absolute truth. I heard him preach the truth with conviction and compassion, and I saw him maintain his personal integrity and demonstrate God’s love and grace without ever compromising on God’s righteousness and truth. The scripture says, "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other" (Psalm 85:10) -- and Dr. Rogers' life exemplified that balance. I do not say any of this to idolize him or put him on a pedestal ... he was just a man, a sinner, saved by the same grace as all God's children. But he sought to live in obedience to God's commands and to reflect all aspects of Christ's character ... truth AND grace, justice AND mercy, holiness AND love ... these thing were not seen by him as "either/or" aspects of the Christian life, but as "both/and". Just as Paul walked closely enough with Christ that he could tell people to imitate him as he imitated Christ, so it was with Dr. Rogers.
Therefore, beloved -- how could those who sat under his teaching, especially those who went through those tumultuous times in the SBC, do anything less? He could have walked away ... he could have easily led Bellevue to leave the SBC and become an independent Baptist church, and people would have followed gladly, because they knew that by following him they were following the Christ he was following. He chose to stand, he chose to speak the truth, he chose to be an agent of change. (By the way, I have to chuckle at those who think the problems at BBC are merely a matter of SG making some changes – Dr. Rogers worked to change the face of the entire denomination! BBC and its leadership have not previously lacked courage to change what needed to be changed. The problem isn’t with change, it is with WHAT is being changed!)
It is very good to encourage one another to speak the truth in love – to be sure that as we stand for what is right, we do so with tenderness and compassion for those who are in error and for those who are being led astray. Our hearts should never be so hard, nor should our frustrations make us so bitter, that we point out the sins of others without tears for the devastation that sin is working in their lives. Just as Jesus wept over Jerusalem, so should we be broken hearted when we see the pain that people are inflicting on themselves and others by their disobedience. But let not that tenderness and meekness ever cause us to shy back from speaking the truth and standing up for what is right. God will not call everyone to stay at Bellevue – there may be many who have left that He wanted to serve Him elsewhere who were so comfortable that they would never have heard his prompting to move on if not for the discomfort of Bellevue’s recent trials. But those He has called to stay, and those He has given the opportunity to speak forth His truth through this blog or other forums, would not be true to their Lord if they failed to say to the “mad” King, as the Nathan pronounced to David, “Thou art the man!”
I think much of what Mr. Estes was referring to would be the many things said on here that have hindered the credibility of some on the side of truth. The calling of the pastor and those that have remained at Bellevue names such as moonbat, responding to others who come here (banned or not) in a manner not consistent with the Bible (such as the "if I wanted to hear a butt talk, I'd pass gas" comment that should have been removed by the author if not the administrator.
I did not not gather from his statements that he questioned your asking of questions or even debating the issues involved. What I think he is calling for is for you all to be Biblical in your responses. Treating someone with Biblical grace is different from just ignoring the issues and "leaving them in God's hands". Granted, there are some trolls or whatever you want to call them that don't act any better, but all I'm saying is that if you want your position to be credible, then you must be beyond reproach. And don't tell me that since the Pastor has not been above reproach that you don't have to either, or that because of your experiences and past traumas, that you can be excused for the occasional angry outburst. So many of you are quick to point to Scripture (and the the misuse of it) when it comes to mistakes made or people you do not agree with, but you rarely seem to apply it to yourselves when some of your responses get out of hand.
Here are the scripture to describe Steve Gaines's plan for you if you don't go along with him.
Use The NIV for proper meaning.
Matt 17:21
Matt 18:11
Matt 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46
Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 17:36
Luke 23:17
John 5:4
I will stop with the Gospels
These scriptures describe many Bellevue Members in the past year.
"I did not not gather from his statements that he questioned your asking of questions or even debating the issues involved"
Cory, Why didn't he just say so in the first place? Did you read his first comment? Why did he not make the distinction? I really do not think Mr. Estes needs an interpreter. :o)
By the way, Cory...here is what is really interesting about all of this. You and Mr. Estes have a place to come and post your comments (rebukes) about this blog and the behavior therein. However, you would be hard pressed to do the same with Gaines' lack of pastoral integrity, the twisting and ignoring of scripture and get a response. See the difference? I certainly hope that you are NOT giving Gaines a pass on his ignoring/twisting of scripture.
I agree with you that some of the stuff on here is not edifying to the Body. I am just as guilty getting silly sometimes in the past. The best thing this blog brings to the situation is the discussion of scripture in context.
Boy, does the Word divide when you really study it in context. IF this blog drives ONE person to scripture to study in context it is worth it. We are fast becoming a Biblically illiterate people and that is why we are hiring 'hirlings' and 'kings' instead of teaching elders.
Grace and Peace to you.
You know what, Cory? You're right. I have asked from the beginning that we try to keep the comments on a civil, Christian level, and I think most people have met that standard. However, there have been some comments, by both "sides," that have made me squirm.
Two specific examples you cited. The "moonbat" thing I've let slide. We even have a picture of one that I post occasionally. It's actually kind of cute.
The "gas" comment to which you referred was posted at 12:20 in the morning on 6-17, and I deleted it as soon as I found it which if I recall was within a few minutes after it was posted. I also deleted the comment of the person who quoted it. What I didn't realize until you just mentioned it was the same person posted the same comment about three hours earlier, and for some reason I didn't see it. I have now deleted that one, too, and I apologize to everyone for missing it. Now, shall I delete your comment, too? After all, you did post the offending quote!
I am going to implore everyone again to PLEASE think before you hit "Publish." Just stop and think! Ignore the trolls. I'll get rid of their comments as soon as I find them. The Lord commands his children to love one another, not to act like children!
unhappy pappy wrote:
"These scriptures describe many Bellevue Members in the past year."
LOL! The key word is "missing"! Those verses are (for whatever reason) missing from the NIV. I don't use the NIV. What's with that?
Unhappy Pappy said...
Here are the scripture to describe Steve Gaines's plan for you if you don't go along with him.
Use The NIV for proper meaning.
Matt 17:21
Matt 18:11
Matt 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46
Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 17:36
Luke 23:17
John 5:4
I will stop with the Gospels
These scriptures describe many Bellevue Members in the past year.
5:26 PM, June 22, 2007
All of these verses are listed as in dispute at whether they belong in the canon as they are not found in the earliest New Testament manuscripts and are LEFT OUT of the body of the text but included as a footnote.
Are you saying thsat the ones that left SHOULD not be included as part of the body of Bellevue or that they have been treated as not worhty of consideration?
Lin,
I was just simply giving my take on what I thought he was trying to say, not trying to interpret. Others interpreted his comments in a different way. I was just offering a different way to look at it.
I certainly do not give SG a pass for the things that have gone on (the misuse of Scripture, the fence, the pedophile, the lack of openness, etc.). I have posted on here before stating that if it had been me, I would have long ago resigned. I get the feeling that you thought that I was giving him a pass?
I am with you on using Scripture in context. What does the context say about exposing false teachers/doctrines in Paul's writings? Does it say to call the false teacher and those who may support him (perhaps even blindly) names and have fun at their expense? I just think so much could be accomplished for your positions if some of these things were not going on. My wife always tells me you can catch more flies with honey! :) I'm just saying, use the Scripture in context for everything, not just those you disagree with who are not one of your regulars (e.g. a troll). Use some Scripture in context to advise those who make these comments to rethink them and perhaps delete them and offer an apology. (I say this in general and not specifically to you, Lin)
Lin Said...
Sorry, friend, but this is NOT biblical
I hope that you were NOT trying to imply that I implied that it was?
I have not read the book he was referencing. I simply gave my interpretation of what I thought he said. It was my opinion!
I fully believe in the Priesthood of the Believer, and have not been in a SBC church that did not teach and promote it. Perhaps your experience is otherwise, but please don't generalize all SBC churches as has sometimes happened here. Some always seem to say there are "few" churches any more who are Biblical. This is an assumption based on what? Have those who think this way been to every church to determine this? Perhaps a lot of the mega churches have fallen ito an un-Biblical pattern, but please don't generalize to all churches.
"Church members act more like an 'audience' than part of the Body with different spiritual gifts in which to edify the whole Body"....I agree--sometimes this is because of the apathy of the church member, not necessarily something the pastor is doing or not doing.
I must say this as well...even though I don't believe this was your intention, your post seemed a bit condescending, as if you were trying to teach me a lesson. I don't understand. Nothing I said in my posts would have indicated I did not have the knowledge you seem to be trying to impart.
Baptist Megachurch Makes History Electing Woman to Pulpit
Cory, I deleted my last comment to you. Please forgive me for my offense toward you.
Grace and Peace to you.
I went bowling tonight. It was fun. Just sayin'. :)
BOWLING I say. Great fun. Just sayin'. Rolled 10 gutter balls, just sayin'. :)
oc,
everyone is worn out.
Lily and Lynn put everyone to shame!!!
Padroc will probably have trouble getting out of bed tomorrow...
I didn't want to hurt myself...been too long since I threw those heavy things!
But it was great fun!!!!!
If it's any consolation, I get more strikes playing baseball.
imaresistor said...
jon estes said, "All of us are above this type of childishness."
Are we supposed to be 'closed mouthed' Bro. Estes for fear of being labled 'childish'?
jon: From camp, early in the morning so I might not post much. Not at all but I would recommend that all that comes out of our mouths me words and attitudes of truth and grace.
Are we supposed to accept what a pastor dishes out to us even when we know beyond any doubt that he is wrong and unbiblical?
Jon: Not at all but we must respond with truth and grace. Most people do not listen to dissenters when they are chucking spears atthem. Even david ducked and left the room. Whenever in any disagreement we must be like Christ. I am having a hard time in my heart with much said on this blog as being Christlike.
At what point do we take a stand or do we not take a stand under any circumstance?
Jon: Take a stand but do it with grace and truth.
What is your opinion Bro. Estes on the purpose driven movement, the seeker-sensitive movement, the emergent church, etc? I would be very interested in knowing your opinion. What is your opinion of Rick Warren? Have you incorporated any of his models into your church? If not, why? If so, why? Have any of your members left because of Warrenism?
I have not read RW and have never been led to do so. Not even to figure him out. I would not be in any position to speak with autority on him or his books.
I did ride an elevator with him once and he did not recognize me. I was disapointed.
fogmachine said...
jon,
What is a congregation supposed to do when staff members who are in the know make alarming accusations to lay leaders, who quietly take these concerns to the pastor, associate pastor, deacon chairman, and other elders and are told to go away?
You may not know the extent of the grace these laymen have exhibited and have continued to exhibit.
Jon: No, I do not know the extent of grace exhibited. Would it be fair to recommend that we extend grace as far and as long as Christ did and does?
I truly hurt for you or I would not be posting here hoping to be helpful.
Lin said...
Jon wrote: Could it be that SG truly believes God called him there and is holding on because of that? If SG believes this I imagine he will not leave. Where does that leave you? He may have enough support to ride this out and build what he believes God has called him to build. Where does this leave you?"
Friend, you have to ignore lots of scripture believe that. The 'church' is not a business organization with coalitions of support. Christ is the Head of the church. All believers are priests now and have ONE High Priest...Christ and His Word.
Jon: I am not ignoring scripture, I simply asked "what if" SG truly believes God called him there and is holding on because of that? This had nothing to do with scripture but a possible midest of your pastor. Step back, take a deep breath and think about what could be in SG mind and heart, other than doing wrong.
I don't know SG and have never spoke to him in person. I would, though, speak to him the same way I speak to you. I am who I am, in Christ.
Karen said...
I love it that these pastors come by the blog to try and help us - I can think of 3 off the top of my head. Seriously, these pastors are truly trying to help us - and our own pastor won't even meet with a small group of men to try to resolve the issues we've blogged about for months. Not sure whether to laugh or cry at that one. If churches around the SBC really care about the "Flagship" of BBC, why aren't they flooding the switchbored or packing the mailbox at Bellevue to register their vote as to whether or not our pastor is doing things of the Lord, not according to the Gospel of St. Steve. You people who haven't lived this nightmare have NO CLUE as to what St. Steve has put some of the membership through - NO CLUE! And for you to pop in one day to chastise us for our bad blogging behavior is just another slap in the face. For those of us trying to find the new right church for us, it sure is disheartening to see other pastors coming around to let us know they could do it better. AHHHH!
I'll stop be for I "go there"!!! :(
My deepest apologies for coming across as chastising you or others here. That was never my intent. You do know that the moderator of this board could make it so only registered members post and only let BBC folk post. Until then it is an open forum and many will post what needs to be said and sadly what does not.
Again forgive me for causing you more discomfort and verbally slapping you, it was not my intent.
Lin said...
"Jon wrote: Do you have knowledge of these things? Do you know what lies behind the curtain? Are you being graceful towards SG, even when he does not deserve it, as Christ was towards us when we did not deserve it?"
Jon, are you not concerned for your brother's eternal life? When there is 'continual' willful sin (Hebrews 10 and 1 John) and ignoring and twisting of the Word...shouldn't you be concerned?
"This blog is being talked about by many people outside BBC. Some are crying over the stuff said, others laughing that the flagship church of the SBC is sinking. it matters to me what others think of you and BBC."
Why does it matter what others think? Where are all the people who care about truth? I would rather stand with a minority who care for scriptural truth and are laughed at and made fun of.
" Nd right now many think BBC and those who operate and post on this blog are a farce."
Why could this possibly matter? Are you impressed by mere men, Jon?
"It is not my intent to debate you and I apologize for bringing an offense."
That is a strange thing to say after saying this blog is a farce. You certainly got your 'spears' in first, though.
jon: Lin, you need to read mor carefully. I am stating how others see this blog and their comments. I stated this so you would know the negative impact it is having on some. I did not say this blog was a farce, if I thought so I would mot waste time here.
" I simply wanted to let you know that truth without grace is legalism and grace without truth is liberalism."
I am not sure I understand you, Jon. Some truths are just negative. Period. A group of men and women from the church have approached Gaines about everything and have been rebuffed and lied to. Do you accuse Jesus of lacking grace with the Pharisees, too?
Jon: Never did Jesus lack grace. But remmeber he spoke to them directly.
Gaines is a false teacher. He is a wolf. We are to contend for the faith.
"The need for both to be demonstrated at all times is important to our witness."
Contending for the truth of scripture is GRACE. And when a pastor says that the qualifications of an elder laid out in Timothy are merely 'guidelines', there is a huge problem.
Jon, earlier in a comment you posted something about Rogers, Patterson, etc at DFW. I want you to know that name dropping does not impress me at all unless it is the Name of Christ.
Jon: I'm sorry you missed the point but I thought knwoing what Dr.Rogers thought about anointing would be important to share.
BTW: After what Patterson did to Dr. Sheri Klouda, I have little respect for him, either. She was shown NO grace, my friend.
Jon: I am very hurt by the Klouda stuff. It should have never happened. I have heroes who are breaking my heart.
I have a request of you and other pastors and SBC leaders reading this: Please clean up your own camp. Rebuke your brothers. Stand for truth of scripture and for basic justice.
Please tell me where I am not doing this?
Cory,
Thank you for clarifying what I have been trying to convey much better than I have been trying. You said it correctly.
New Age spirituality being fused with Christianity by the practice of Hindu Yoga practices in USA.
New Video details how new age and eastern spirituality is fused with this deadly practice.
Do not be deceived.
Satan walks about as a roaring Lion, seeking whom he may devour.
DANGERS OF YOGA MILLIONS OF CRISTIANS ARE NOT AWAR OF
jon,
Just curious...did you ever write Dr. Patterson concerning the stated incident?...spread a little grace and truth his way?...because I believe there's an unwritten code between pastors just like the unwritten code between doctors...one doctor could kill a hundred patients, but you could never get one doctor to speak up against another...no matter how many patients he's killed.
This chasm that's been created between "clergy" and "laity" is unbiblical. The idea that the clergy holds all authority and the congregation is simply to obey is nothing short of popery. We are one body with many parts. No one part more important than the other. Ultimate authority in the local body concerning discipline matters, and ridding the church of false teachings and teachers rests with the congregation. I suggest you put down "3 Kings" and go to 9 Marks Ministries and read up on how a church is supposed to operate.
Ex KGB agent and defector details the famous and not-so famous "useful idiots" that yoga and meditation have produced in America.
This is a video that should be must viewing for all ho beleive Yoga and meditation are benign and harmless spiritually and nationally.
Americans duped into Yoga and meditation practices cheered by historic adversaries
Hi OC,
No...I'm up and running this morning. Gotta work today :(
Hey AOG,
good to hear you are alive and kickin'. :)
Jon wrote:
"You do know that the moderator of this board could make it so only registered members post and only let BBC folk post."
If I did that, you never would have found this blog because if I make it so only privately registered users can post, then they are the only ones who can read, too. We have many times more people read than ever post, and it's only for that reason I haven't made the blog private.
I would highly reccomend a reading of Acts 7 when you get a chance. Pay close attention to who Stephen is speaking to. What their reaction is.
Stephen lines it up very well. I would say that his message to the pharisees that day applies to church leaders today.
His message also applies to the pew as well. BBC is the work of man's hands and God does not reside in a house built by man....
It is interesting that a man named Saul, in all his zeal, persecuted the church. Persecuted christians.....plucked up, tore down, uprooted and scattered the flock. There once was a king named Saul. Other than the name coincidence, is this the "spirit" of Saul working? Is this spirit alive and well at BBC?
Mr. Estes, everything I have been reading in the WORD answers the question "what if" SG truly believes God called him there and is holding on because of that? " It is misguided zeal for a religion perverted and distorted to fit man's desires and ideas of who God is. The identical problem that the pharisees and scribes had. Religion has been turned into a business, money machine, with all the trappings of power, pride and greed. The work of man's hands...
Let's just hope that the Holy Spirit chooses to reveal the truth to Dr. Gaines sooner than later. Anything short of a personal encounter with the Holy Spirit does not appear to have any chance of removing the scales from his eyes.......The Word certainly has been having little effect, find the evidence on the billboards.....Gaines makes it say what he wants to....When we make it say what we want it to, it looses it's power to judge us. Without a judge we can do what we want. Right?
By the way......Stephen doesn't sound like he is extending too much grace in Acts 7. Maybe if he would have delivered the message with a little more grace......He wouldn't have been stoned.
aog wrote:
"I believe there's an unwritten code between pastors just like the unwritten code between doctors...one doctor could kill a hundred patients, but you could never get one doctor to speak up against another...no matter how many patients he's killed."
Amen! I have said the same thing myself -- numerous times! Of course that's just referring to speaking out publicly. No doubt plenty is said behind closed doors that we don't hear about.
Consider the "Steve Gaines" resolution passed at this year's convention. That was it's "unofficial" name. You can't tell me that there hasn't been plenty said about that behind office doors, in e-mails, and in phone conversations. You just won't ever hear one of them say anything against one of their own in public.
Look at the damage control Mike Spradlin was forced to do after the Commercial Appeal article in December. Granted, he was misquoted, but he was still forced to clean up the mess the next day.
I have a relative who's a Southern Baptist pastor in another state. Back when all this started (pre-blog) I asked if he knew anything about what was going on at Bellevue. Putting on his best poker face he replied, "I heard some things from a couple of guys at the seminary (he didn't specify which one) a few months ago." That was all he would say, but that told me there had been rumblings among the ranks for months prior to most of the rest of us becoming aware of the problems.
Someone told me just yesterday about a well-placed minister-type person (you'd know the name) warning the members of the pastor search committee about SG. This person told them who all they needed to talk with to learn why calling SG would be ill-advised. He said he was met by indifference. They didn't want to hear it. Apparently they were determined, for some unknown reason, that SG was going to be The One, and nothing was going to change their minds. I always wondered why it took them so many months to arrive at a conclusion when it was a done deal from the beginning. Appearances, I guess.
Your comparison to doctors is the perfect illustration of the problem. It's why sexual predators are allowed to move from church to church (and parish to parish in the case of Catholic priests), and pastors (and priests) turn their backs. They just dump their trash on some other unsuspecting church (or parish), and life goes on. It's why sheep-beating pastors church hop. It's what I call the "good old boy network" in action. And it's disgraceful!
AOG,
Thank you for responding to this. You articulated many things that I was thinking.
I get weary of these 'circular' debates. I simply was going to refer back to one sentence in Mr. Estes' first comment:
" David could not because it would be wrong to do anything to God's anointed, even when they have gone mad."
Obviously, Mr. Estes believes this parallels with pastors (no matter what they teach or do) today. I want to remind Mr. Estes that the Jews begged God for a king.
It is nothing short of Popery.
Jon wrote: I am not ignoring scripture, I simply asked "what if" SG truly believes God called him there and is holding on because of that? This had nothing to do with scripture but a possible midest of your pastor. Step back, take a deep breath and think about what could be in SG mind and heart, other than doing wrong.
Mr. Estes, this is just plain silly to even consider. I can only go by actions and words. What does it matter whether SG believes God called him or not?
We can only line up his actions, teachings, words with scripture.
God does not call false teachers. He allows it. He is totally Sovereign. What you wrote above is totally man-centered thinking.
Ezekial wrote: By the way......Stephen doesn't sound like he is extending too much grace in Acts 7. Maybe if he would have delivered the message with a little more grace......He wouldn't have been stoned"
Ez, I am trying to find the new definition of 'grace' in this:
Matthew 23:24-26
24You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
25"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
Jon,
YOu are on the outside looking in.
It's probly not a good idea to "advise" us on this, since we have lived it.
OK?
Thanks.
lin said,
I am trying to find the new definition of 'grace' in this:
Matthew 23:24-26
24You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
25"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
Reply: Yes! Grace does not necessarily mean 'nice'. Many need to understand this.
jon wrote: Lin, you need to read mor carefully. I am stating how others see this blog and their comments. I stated this so you would know the negative impact it is having on some. I did not say this blog was a farce, if I thought so I would mot waste time here."
Mr. Estes, Please be more specific on the negative impact of this blog that you describe above.
I can certainly understand why popish pastors would hate blogs. It must be akin to how the Bishops and Popes feared the printing press. They lost control.
A godly pastor has nothing to fear of a blog. He would see it as a tool for truth that like the printing press, has been for both good and evil.
My prayer is that this blog will drive people to scripture to discern the truth through the Holy Spirit. That people STOP following man and follow Christ.
Here is an example of what I mean:
Jon wrote: "I am very hurt by the Klouda stuff. It should have never happened. I have heroes who are breaking my heart."
Earthly heros will always disappoint us, Mr. Estes. That is why we should not have earthly hero's in the first place. They are weak and sinful priests just like ME. Jesus is our ONLY High Priest. Our pastors/elders today are to be servants, not kings.
I can only point those reading this blog to the Word and to Christ ALONE for truth and worship. They must not believe me..a mere mortal. But only the Words in scripture.
We must be Bereans. We must check every word that is taught to us.
Hey SOTL,
Glad to see you survived the bowling. :) Fun, huh?
Hey!
I went bowling last night, too!! I was the one in green, you know, like a grasshopper.
SOTL,
Yeah, I think I saw you there. Weren't you in alley 4? Throwing gutter balls like me?
Lin,
The statement of Jon's that you addressed is text book (and what I have experienced many times)
of the addictive or abusive dysfunctional family member after his or her actions/behaviors have ripped up others in the family......
"I didn't MEAN to hurt you"....
BECAUSE that self centered person only thinks of the immediate gratification to himself and not how his actions affect others.
This is strictly my opinion, but it seems like ministers need to experience life outside the bubble as part of their training.
The very first "Biblical counselor" I saw with my monster husband was so innocent
(and I still love this man and he has long left BBC)
didn't have a clue of the evil workings of this man so steered me wrong
and played right into the narcissist's trap.
FINALLY I began hearing James Dobson (many years ago)
speak to the issues I was dealing with and slowly worked my way thru the maze.
Ministers should certainly be all about grace and mercy....but how about being repulsed by sin!
I wish they would stop trying to be psychologist.
OH?
We were supposed to THROW them?
I thought we were supposed to KICK them!!!
Why didn't anyone stop me?
"Lin wrote: I have a request of you and other pastors and SBC leaders reading this: Please clean up your own camp. Rebuke your brothers. Stand for truth of scripture and for basic justice.
Jon wrote: Please tell me where I am not doing this?"
I do not know if you have rebuked another pastor or not.
Gaines' abuses of position, harboring an pedophile minster, twisting of scripture and actions are public knowledge. They are public sins which require a public rebuke. If you rebuked him publicly, I have missed it.
Patterson's deceitful actions toward Dr. Klouda are public. Where are the rebukes of his peers in ministry? (Besides Wade Burleson who is taking up donations for Dr. Klouda. God Bless HIM!)
If you rebuked Patterson publicly, I have missed it.
Lin,
Obviously I missed what you are referring to between Patterson and
klouda.
Could you give me the short version?
SOTL said,
"OH?
We were supposed to THROW them?
I thought we were supposed to KICK them!!!
Why didn't anyone stop me? "
Reply: Because you are the "grasshopper". No one messes with the grasshopper. :)
oc,
AHH, Tis good to be queen.
"Obviously I missed what you are referring to between Patterson and
klouda."
Here are some links that will explain it in detail. The blogger is a pastor of a church in OK and was involved in the SBC. It is worth your time to read it and to pray for this woman and her family:
The story of what happened:
http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2007/01/sheri-klouda-gender-discrimination_17.html
What is going on now:
http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2007/06/request-to-help-dr-sheri-klouda-and.html
gmommy said...
oc,
everyone is worn out.
Lily and Lynn put everyone to shame!!!
Padroc will probably have trouble getting out of bed tomorrow...
I didn't want to hurt myself...been too long since I threw those heavy things!
But it was great fun!!!!!
1:13 AM, June 23, 2007
I had a blast bowling last night. I think I over did it some. When I speared those pins it made my shoulder hurt!!!! We ought to do it again sometime :D
allofgrace said...
jon,
Just curious...did you ever write Dr. Patterson concerning the stated incident?...spread a little grace and truth his way?...because I believe there's an unwritten code between pastors just like the unwritten code between doctors...one doctor could kill a hundred patients, but you could never get one doctor to speak up against another...no matter how many patients he's killed.
Jon: My communication with Dr.Patterson is between he and I and it will remain that way. It would be wrong for me to state any more than that on this forum.
This chasm that's been created between "clergy" and "laity" is unbiblical. The idea that the clergy holds all authority and the congregation is simply to obey is nothing short of popery. We are one body with many parts. No one part more important than the other. Ultimate authority in the local body concerning discipline matters, and ridding the church of false teachings and teachers rests with the congregation. I suggest you put down "3 Kings" and go to 9 Marks Ministries and read up on how a church is supposed to operate.
I believe you are misreading me. I have not supported that the clergy holds all authority and the congregation is simply to obey. I have been hoping to convey that everything we do must be done with truth and grace. I don't know and probably neither do you if everything said on this blog against SG is true but I think both of us are intelligent enough to see that much is being said with no amount of grace. This concerns me for the sake of those posting and being allowed to continue to be less than salt and light.
Post a Comment