It's deacon nomination time again, and the qualifications have been outlined in this insert from the July 1st Bellevue Today.It seems a few things have been added to the Scriptural qualifications -- such as adherence to the BF&M 2000 (which our pastor had a large role in penning) and "lifting up the hands of the pastor," the latter being a variation of the wording in the infamous "deacon loyalty oath" that apparently died on the vine. That letter, which all the deacons were requested (required?) to sign, but which many refused, read as follows:
Brothers,
At the conclusion of our Deacons meeting that followed the evening service, all who were present unanimously approved the following motion:
"The 2006 active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church met November 5th after the evening service and unanimously approved the following motion. We the active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church wish to convey to our Church family our affirmation of Dr. Steve Gaines as God’s appointed and God’s anointed Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church. We commit ourselves before God and our Church family to serve with loyalty under his leadership and to free him up to do the work to which God has called him to do. We publicly demonstrate our loyalty to Pastor Gaines by signing our name to this motion and standing before the Church congregation in each of the morning worship services on November 19, 2006."
Over the next few days, each Vice Chairman will be calling the men in their group to go over the motion and answer any questions. The motion requires each Deacon to sign his name to the motion indicating his public approval of the motion, so please go to the Events Registration Center to sign it. If you have any reservations in signing this motion, please discuss it with your Vice Chairman. I want to reiterate that every Deacon that was present in the Deacons meeting following the service unanimously approved this motion, with the understanding they were to sign it and to stand before the congregation on November 19th. Our congregation needs to know where the Deacons stand during these challenging days.
Chuck
Steve Gaines has stated that he is not accountable to the deacon body. Therefore, it appears "service," as outlined in these qualifications, is a one-way street. We have many fine men serving as deacons, and certainly not all bow to the "demands" of the pastor, but some do.
You may recall the letter from Charles and Pam Gremillion to the deacons and some of the deacons' responses.
Now the "Pastor's Pit Crew," a group of children who have volunteered to pray for the pastor, have received their first assignment. Praying for the pastor is something we all should do. That's not the point. However, maybe it's "just me," but this sounds a little too much like loyalty to a man.
540 comments:
1 – 200 of 540 Newer› Newest»Assessment of the BBC Leaders:
Steve Gaines: Pastor- Let the past be the past…with no consequences. If you don’t like it, leave. He met with Dr. Rogers on one occasion after becoming pastor of Bellevue. Don’t question your leadership or your pastor. Harbored a pedophile – claims he didn’t have any procedures on how to handle the situation. The Bible is just a set of guidelines, according to him. Gave $25K to FUMC – which by the way supports abortion, supports homosexuality, and has a female pastor. He told a former Chairman of the Deacons that he “had used the church credit card for personal expense…but I paid it back.” Then, at the September informational meeting, he held up his church credit card and said he had “never used a church credit card for personal expense.” He admitted to a deacon officer that there indeed was a plan to adjourn the Business Meeting after approximately 45 minutes. Integrity gone.
Mark Dougharty: former Associate Pastor- Gone. His Integrity left several years before he did.
Phil Weatherwax: Minister, Community Missions- Sent scathing emails to Josh Manning. Nasty, ugly, harsh comments that are very unbecoming of a Minister. I’m not exactly sure how Phil honored Christ or showed the love when he inked the very ugly – and non-repentant – emails. Integrity gone.
Steve Marcum: Minister, Missions- My understanding is that he and Phil Weatherwax personally delivered the $25K check to First United Methodist Church (FUMC). This is the organization which condones abortion, condones homosexuality, and has a woman pastor. Integrity gone.
Jim Barnwell: Director, Communications- Hmmm….where do we begin? Jim was one of the key members of the infamous “Communication Committee.” His avoidance at actually answering questions at the Communication Committee (CC) meetings, and his penmanship in authoring some of the written answers in the CC publications were lackluster at best. Integrity gone.
Phil Newberry: Minister, Students- Has said some very ugly comments regarding our former first lady of BBC – none that I will repeat on the blog, but he knows he said some ugly things. Gave mis-information to youth about JW’s “retirement.” He has stood before the youth and said that “everything is fine” and “there are no problems at Bellevue.” Integrity gone.
Greg Hauss: Minister, Senior High- When he was questioned about the March Business Meeting and whether he knew there was a plan to adjourn after approximately 45 minutes – he first said no. When challenged, amazingly he admitted that he did know about the plan. Integrity gone.
Deborah Houseal: Director, Children’s Programming- During the recent VBS at Bellevue, she was questioned as to why the puppet show being shown to the children had the host name of “Stupid Idiot.” There was a sign posted which read “Stu P. Ediot.” The sign was posted for the first 3 days, and then it was removed because several parents had complained. Now…why did the Children’s Ministry feel compelled to use Stupid Idiot (“Stu”) in a church skit? I fail to see the humor. Why have so many Sunday school teachers resigned? Integrity gone.
Carter Threlkeld: Minister, Instrumental Music- The orchestra sure looks like it is shrinking. Many of the musicians who have been around for many years are no longer playing in the orchestra – at Bellevue. Could it be that many of the orchestra members are tired of the pettiness and attitude that is coming from the top down? Could it be that there is no longer an attitude of humility or grace or a simple genuine thank you? There is a long list of orchestra members who have felt the need to remove themselves from playing at BBC due to the arrogance that doesn’t stop from the pulpit but also spews from the baton. Show some concern. Show some leadership. Integrity – compromised and questionable.
Scotty Shows: Minister, Recreation- He ensured that the B-string ECS basketball team got to use the gym for basketball practice instead of the “home schoolers who took the cheap way out.” Now that statement shows real compassion for our members. At least he has stated that he did not agree with how the Pastor handled the Paul Williams situation initially, and he believes the termination of PW should have occurred immediately. He also did not agree with Steve Gaines and the Finance Committee giving a $25K financial contribution to an organization which condones the murdering of innocent babies and the homosexual lifestyle. Integrity – disappointing at the least.
Carolyn Higginbotham: Director, Prayer Ministry- She recently stated that she finally discovered that Bellevue was a singing church after all of these many years. This revelation came to her during a church service a few months ago, per Higgy. Her new quest is to help Bellevue become a praying church. Well…I sure thought we had been a singing and praying and Christ-centered church for a long time. I am not sure where she is coming from with her statements. She is also the mastermind of the PIT crew – an attempt to gain members for the declining SFC (Steve Fan Club). Also, our deacon brothers must be feeling rather…let’s say awkward…that none of them were capable of leading our 180 +/- deacons in prayer and that none of them were capable of leading our church. Are you men? As long as the “Deacon Club Card” is still active, I guess most will just “swallow and follow.” I still don’t know the difference between “Minister, Prayer Ministry” or “Director, Prayer Ministry.” Higgy’s predecessor was a Minister, but she is a Director. But, I digress…after all, as our Pastor has stated, we are not to question him or our leadership. (I am tapping on my imaginary microphone…) Integrity gone.
Chip Freeman: Church Administrator- “Everything is jusssssst fine.” I can add no more to that ridiculous statement that he used back in September at the informational meeting. What else can one say? Integrity gone.
Jamie Fish: Minister, Biblical Guidance
Webb Williams: Minister, Member Development
Guys- I love you, but you totally missed the boat in the mishandling of the Paul Williams situation. Integrity gone.
So, these are our paid staff leaders? None of us are perfect. I am certainly anything but perfect. However, these are the leaders in charge of leading Bellevue. Their salaries and benefits are paid by our tithes, and they are expected to be good stewards with money, our time, and our resources. My family and I can no longer listen to Steve Gaines any more. However, as a dear friend of mine says often, if Steve Gaines left Bellevue today, the problems would still be here tomorrow.” Sadly, I agree with that statement.
The sheep are scattered. The sheep are hurting. The BBC leaders don’t care. Period. They do not care. One of the deacons, a Sunday school teacher in fact, has stated the following: “Steve Gaines is the right Pastor for Bellevue. Bellevue just has the wrong congregation.” Personally, I think that has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. However, that is the attitude that many of the “leaders” have today.
Most current staff members, lay leaders, and Sunday school teachers are not contacting members who have been absent from Sunday school for a few Sundays…or a few weeks…or a few months. I have talked with many families who have said the same thing. The common quotes are: “My teacher has not even bothered to call me to check if things are ok with my family” or “My teacher has not called to see if anybody is sick.” THE LEADERS DON’T CARE.
No compassion. Lots of arrogance. Very self-centered and self-serving. Other popular quotes are: “Nothing is wrong” and “Everything is just fine” and “It’s just a couple of people who are unhappy because they don’t like change.” No ministering. No consequences for one’s actions. No integrity. May God please guide Bellevue.
I just went through and read the deacon responses to Pam's letter. (Anyone familiar with Pam will know that she is one of the sweetest most spiritual and loving Christians one could find)
Astonishing! Except for one or two, the responses were nasty and not worthy of one calling themselves a deacon. Her letter did not warrant such responses!
Notice how the deacon's loyalty pledge referred to Gaines as "God's anointed"? This false teaching is so blatant and is everywhere!!I guess if they can get biblically ignorant sheep to believe they really are anointed, they can get by with just about anything.
It pains me to see so many grown men who should know better so blindly follow.
Oh MY! I just read the prayer guide given to children. This is nothing short of indoctination to blindly follow a false teacher.
Would it not be better to teach these children to pray Psalms 16 in context?
Psalm 16
1Preserve me, O God, for in you I take refuge.
2I say to the LORD, "You are my Lord;
I have no good apart from you."
3As for the saints in the land, they are the excellent ones,
in whom is all my delight.
4The sorrows of those who run after another god shall multiply;
their drink offerings of blood I will not pour out
or take their names on my lips.
5The LORD is my chosen portion and my cup;
you hold my lot.
6The lines have fallen for me in pleasant places;
indeed, I have a beautiful inheritance.
7I bless the LORD who gives me counsel;
in the night also my heart instructs me.
8I have set the LORD always before me;
because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken.
9Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being[e] rejoices;
my flesh also dwells secure.
10For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol,
or let your holy one see corruption.
11You make known to me the path of life;
in your presence there is fullness of joy;
at your right hand are pleasures forevermore
Thread Question: Serving the body or serving SG?
My vote: Serving Steve Gaines
How can you be serving the body, and your Savior, if you allow clear disobedience and poor judgements by the pastor and leadership impact the body negatively?
It's been several days since my last visit, so I bring greetings and wishes to all for a Happy Independence Day. Celebrating our nation's independence mentioned, might I offer a brief word on where there must be dependence--where there must be such humility and mutual subjection that partnership is the result. The place of which I speak is between a church's pastor and its deacons.
One of my favorite spots in Scripture is Acts 6. Funny, isn't it, how problems arose in the church even then? For the early church the issue was getting sufficient food distribution to both Jewish and Greek widows. Though it's not stated in certain terms, this problem must have brought considerable distraction to the preaching and prayer ministries of the apostles--enough, at the least, for them to feel led of God to defend their roles in church life by creating a new one. Without doubt, here is where the New Testament deacon was born, a position not so much of power or prestige but of ultimate servanthood. Though the qualification texts of 1 Timothy and Titus were not yet available, you can certainly see the Holy Spirit's inspirational consistency in the spirits of the seven men selected to serve. Suddenly the pastors had partners and the fuss was fixed. My favorite statement demonstrates the results of these deacons' ministry. It comes in Luke's seventh verse: "The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith" (NASB). My spirit leaps to praise God for so mightily using these seven men of God in such a way that a new movement was unleashed that reached even the gospel's harshest critics!
Acts 6 is a picture of deacons and pastors--apostles in its context, of course--serving in partnership. But in keeping with the blog question, did God move mightily because the seven were serving the pastors or because the seven were serving Him? As I mentioned last week, I am a Southern Baptist pastor, and I wholeheartedly affirm the need for deacons who are willing to support their pastor. But the New Testament deacon is not to be commended for character, integrity, or humility surrendered to his pastor, but for character, integrity, or humility surrendered to Christ. It must be made clear that my ministry as pastor is enhanced not when deacons love me first and serve me but when deacons love Christ first and serve Him. As a matter of fact, the pastor who has a partnership with deacons who love and serve Christ first will find neither himself or his church wanting.
Let it be known that my commentary here is not meant for attack in any context. But in closing, I can completely understand the occasional show of loyalty between a pastor and deacons so long as that loyalty is unanimously, intentionally, and gloriously cast upon the Lord Jesus Christ. To stand arm in arm with a group of fellow servants to publicly renew our faith and partnership for a new season, pledging fresh allegiance to the Lamb, would be a dream come true. But don't give me a group of men primarily devoted to and dependent upon me. Give me men who are ultimately devoted to and dependent upon Christ. These will be the men who'll have a heart to help me because they'll have a heart to serve Him. Fortunately these are the men by which I'm currently surrounded. Partnership has never tasted so sweet, so others can have their independence--give me interdependence like this any time!
Michael E.,
Your post was biblical,honest,kind,very clear, and really cool.Thank you!
You don't play games or try to stir things up....you speak your heart which lines up with God's word. Refreshing.
Thank you for the encouragement. May yours and other churches experience the joy of such partnership. And notice my new display name.
Bro. Michael: I pray also we can experience the joy of returning to scriptural leadership. Thanks for your words.
:)
From the "loyalty oath"...
"The 2006 active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church met November 5th after the evening service and unanimously approved the following motion."
The word "unanimously" used here is somewhat misleading. The meeting during which this motion was approved was held on a Sunday afternoon and was continued after the Sunday night service. Apparently it went on for several hours. Quite a few deacons had left, some out of protest, some no doubt because of the late hour, and the motion may have been "unanimously" approved (though there's some question about that), but it was not by the full deacon body by any stretch. It was only by those who hadn't left in disgust or from sheer exhaustion.
Words really do mean things, but in this case, they don't necessarily mean what you think.
From the Bellevue Today insert:
Russell Quinn joins the Bellevue staff as Minister, Singles 3. Russell will primarily serve Bellevue's single adults in their 40s and 50s. Before coming to Bellevue, Russell served as pastor of Highview Baptist Church's Spencer County campus in Louisville, Kentucky. He has also served as Director of Communications for Highview Baptist Church; Minister of Media and Minister to College Students at First Baptist Church in Gardendale, Alabama; and President of Campus Ministries at Union University. He was ordained to the ministry by First Baptist Church of Gardendale, Alabama, in 1995.
It's not all all unusual for a pastor to bring in new staff that he has worked well with at previous churches. And this new addition may be a great guy and an effective minister. But given some of the reports from members of churches where SG has previously served, and given how those reports indicate SG's attitudes and "leadership style" at those churches was the same as what has been demonstrated at BBC ... one has to wonder ... just what are the attitudes and values of these staff members from SG's former churches who are still willing to work with him?
By the way ... does anyone other than SG have to approve the hiring / appointment of new ministers? We know they don't have to be approved by the congregation (the ones supposedly being served, and the ones paying the salary -- in any other job that would be called "the employer"). But does anyone else have any input or decision-making power as to who is placed on ministerial staff?
From the Bellevue Today insert ...
3. The deacon is one who is to help create and preserve harmony in the church. He should be able to have and to maintain the reputation of keeping in confidence those things which should not be discussed openly. He should be wise and discreet.
In context of events since SG came to BBC, I offer this translation:
A deacon is to go along to get along; he is to put up and shut up. He must not challenge or criticize the pastor at any time or for any reason, and he must keep quiet about anything that might not look right. He must know that the pastor is "boss" and never let anyone know when the boss messes up.
The pit crew assignment. Just who came up with this? Who is the author?
I thought I was prepared for whatever else unfolded at BBC, but this?
"Help him remember he is not responsible for those who do not love you." ---- Just what "you" is this referring to? Is this referring to "those that do not love SG" or is it referring to "those that do not love Jesus"??? There is a big difference here. I need clarification.
"He does not have to be afraid of anything or anybody." Just what is this saying? How is this scriptural? How do small children interpret this? How frightening!!!
"Everything SG has good comes from You" (or you the sheep? or from the sheeps' tithes????)
God bless and forgive this sinful nation on this fourth of July, 2007. God bless the truthseekers and warriors for HIM in this world of wolves.
My mouth is still agape.
Oh, another class to visit:
Russell Quinn joins the Bellevue staff as Minister, Singles 3. Russell will primarily serve Bellevue's single adults in their 40s and 50s.
That would be my age group. I will try to find the time to check out his class. Of course, I am still trying to find the time to attend Ms. BT's class.
So much to do, so little time, so much blood pressure medication.
To Junkster:
Excellent translation.
And, I like your new name.
Blessings to you and all Warriors.
yeah. Speaking of Gaines, did anyone catch his speech Sunday? He was preaching on how Christians should obey the laws. This coming from someone who on multiple occassions broke the laws. Both the laws of the Bible and the laws of Man.
Junkster shared,
From the Bellevue Today insert ...
3. The deacon is one who is to help create and preserve harmony in the church. He should be able to have and to maintain the reputation of keeping in confidence those things which should not be discussed openly. He should be wise and discreet.
oc says: Doesn't this sound a little 'cultish'? The endorsement of secrecy is a bit creepy, isn't it? And they are as bold as to actually print it. I wonder if there is a secret handshake?
solomon wrote:
"I'd recommend that anyone who uses such crude, vulgar, and inappropriate innuendos learn where they originated and what they mean."
Ummm... I believe Dr. Rogers was the one who said that. Correct me if I'm wrong.
"Swallow and follow" is an old medical term for using barium to trace problems with the digestion tract. It has come to be used as a slang term for blindly accepting what another gives you (even if it is distasteful).
C'mon, Keith, get your mind out of the gutter! :)
oc said...
Junkster shared,
From the Bellevue Today insert ...
3. The deacon is one who is to help create and preserve harmony in the church. He should be able to have and to maintain the reputation of keeping in confidence those things which should not be discussed openly. He should be wise and discreet.
oc says: Doesn't this sound a little 'cultish'? The endorsement of secrecy is a bit creepy, isn't it? And they are as bold as to actually print it. I wonder if there is a secret handshake?
Memphis adds:
In my opinion, this is not about secrets, but about spiritual issues or concerns that do not need to be hallway talk.
I would expect my deacon (if I knew who my deacon was) would be someone that I could talk to in confidence without him spreading details throughout the congregation. I do not find that out of line for a deacon.
Memphis adds:
In my opinion, this is not about secrets, but about spiritual issues or concerns that do not need to be hallway talk.
I would expect my deacon (if I knew who my deacon was) would be someone that I could talk to in confidence without him spreading details throughout the congregation. I do not find that out of line for a deacon.
oc says:
Oh, I can understand what you are saying. I just thought the wording was a little strange, I guess.
So if that is the case, then I ask this question:
If a man is qualified to be a deacon, then why must he be told such things? At that point of his spiritual walk, wouldn't he know such things already? If my deacon had to be told this, I would be very worried about his fitness to serve as a deacon.
Just sayin'.
oc
From the Bellevue Today insert ...
3. The deacon is one who is to help create and preserve harmony in the church. He should be able to have and to maintain the reputation of keeping in confidence those things which should not be discussed openly. He should be wise and discreet.
Memphis adds:
In my opinion, this is not about secrets, but about spiritual issues or concerns that do not need to be hallway talk.
I agree there are some issues that should be kept confidential, but to refer to them as secretsis at best a poor choice of words.
I would expect my deacon (if I knew who my deacon was) would be someone that I could talk to in confidence without him spreading details throughout the congregation. I do not find that out of line for a deacon.
I find it a bit odd that a church would even consider a deacon of such questionable character that he would not have the wisdom to be discernable about the issue that Memphis refers to above. To require an oath brings into question the entire selection process.
I actually have a larger problem with the first statement made. Why would a church with Jesus as its foundation need harmony cops?
Why would a church with Jesus as its foundation need harmony cops?
Good question. I think the most plausible answer would be that the church is filled with people who still make mistakes and sometimes live selfishly rather than selflessly. I know I struggle with this in my life. I know, no matter how much I want to be in harmony, sometimes I want my way more, even if it means disharmony occurs.
I am grateful for the deacons who serve where I pastor. They understand the need to be reminded and united on the issue of being harmony cops (not the term I would choose but you make a great point with it).
Pastors can earn respect or demand respect. Pastors can earn authority or demand authority. This all sounds like a military model to me, i.e. a "chain of command" for the local church.
"You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave, just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve" (Mt. 20:25-28, NIV).
The assignment can be seen in at least two ways.
1 - As a tool for focused intercession.
- by thins I mean it is helping others to learn about intercession and ways to use scripture in our prayers, for others.
2 - As a tool for focused exaltation
- by this I mean it is intentionally used for the focus to be on a man and not God.
Since the prayer begins with an address to God and the points ask God to help the pastor, keep the pastor, fill the pastor, make the pastor... to address a few focuses, I don't see it as something being used to mislead anyone but to be a tool to benefit the body at BBC.
Having walked closely with many in the SBC since 1979 and watch the battle within our convention unfold, I refused to think there was a liberal under every rock and behind every bush.
I would appreciate it if my church prayed these things for me.
Getting back to the thread topic and BBC, I would hope that men who are serving as deacons have been CALLED to do so, and are diligent in maintaining their spiritual walk. Granted, it seems as if some of that is in doubt at BBC because of some of what we understand is happening in the deacon body. Very sad.
"Good question. I think the most plausible answer would be that the church is filled with people who still make mistakes and sometimes live selfishly rather than selflessly."
Isn't it still called 'sin' at your church, too?
memphis said...
I would expect my deacon (if I knew who my deacon was) would be someone that I could talk to in confidence without him spreading details throughout the congregation. I do not find that out of line for a deacon.
I agree. I also have no problem with this item (the ability to keep confidences) being listed as a reminder of the kind of man a deacon should be.
The list of deacon qualifications in the insert is most likely intended as a guide to those making nominations. And I would expect a church that has been through certain issues to get make specific applications of the Scripture's general qualifications.
My sarcastic "translation" may have been harsh, but my point was that this particular item was not listed by cooincidence, nor is it referring just to the general concept of being able to keep a confidence. In context of events since SG came to BBC, it seems pretty obvious to me that this particular application was intended as a statement by church leadership that if a deacon learns of things that might not look good for the pastor, he'd better keep his mouth shut about it. It seems to run contrary to the stated intent of the church administration to be more open and transparent.
Just my opinions, of course.
(Word verification: catkfc. Yummy!)
Lin said...
Isn't it still called 'sin' at your church, too?
Have you managed to find a church without selfish (sinful) people? If so, I'd kinda like to see it ... but only from far enough away that I wouldn't corrupt it by my presence! :)
Lily said...
Oh, another class to visit:
Russell Quinn joins the Bellevue staff as Minister, Singles 3. Russell will primarily serve Bellevue's single adults in their 40s and 50s.
That would be my age group. I will try to find the time to check out his class. Of course, I am still trying to find the time to attend Ms. BT's class.
So much to do, so little time, so much blood pressure medication.
8:44 PM, July 04, 2007
Reply:
Lily,
I wish to personally invite you to attend our class and if you wish we will have a discussion regarding any issue you have with me. I will even invite the Biblical Guidance counselors to give you confidence. I will do my very best to make your feel welcomed and I am certain that others in our class would give you a warm and friendly welcome.
The heart of our Pastor and of those of us who worship Jesus under his leadership is not to run you away but to love you and restore you into our fellowship. The hardness of your hearts have driven you away from us and I hope you can grasp this.
The only reason any of you have been told to just leave is because YOU refuse to accept the changes being made under Brother Gaines.
I want to add this also because I do not intend to enter into a discussion.
Brother Gaines has become to you and your fellowship of bloggers the same as President Bush is to the democrates; it doesn't matter what he does in your minds it is wrong and will not work. He can (excuse this analogy) spit on the ground and you would have something negative to say about it.
Please come and visit our class but negative talk about our pastor will NOT be permitted. We are not about gossip and discord but about encouraging one another and unity.
BT said,
"The only reason any of you have been told to just leave is because YOU refuse to accept the changes being made under Brother Gaines."
Dear lady, regardless of what you have been told, or what vain imaginations you may have, my family and I have left ONLY because God's Holy Scripture is being violated and error is being preached. Until YOU and others who are blinded by the angel of light have your eyes opened by Jesus himself, you will not understand or even come close to having a clue. I used to feel sorry for you, but your willingness to tolerate sin in lieu of searching out the truth only makes you a laughing stock to the world.
billie said ...
We are not about gossip and discord but about encouraging one another and unity.
Would be kinda nice if a Bible study class also had something in there about studying the truth of Scripture.
Just sayin'
Billie said: "Brother Gaines has become to you and your fellowship of bloggers the same as President Bush is to the democrates; it doesn't matter what he does in your minds it is wrong and will not work. He can (excuse this analogy) spit on the ground and you would have something negative to say about it."
One thing he could do that we all would rejoice about: REPENT.
Lin said...
"Good question. I think the most plausible answer would be that the church is filled with people who still make mistakes and sometimes live selfishly rather than selflessly."
Isn't it still called 'sin' at your church, too?
11:03 AM, July 05, 2007
Lin,
Is it the listing of specific sins, without using the term sin, that bothers you or is it that I dare post?
I ask because there are lists of specific sins being listed against BBC's pastor without using the term sin and your silence about the matter is noticeable.
Just listened to the Mark Dougharty recording on savingbellevue.com
Wow Mark D. admits that he has lied to other Churches and our members in telling them that we don't have bylaws!!
And ok Mark says we go by the scriptures what about for example our Human Resources policy? Where are these issues outlined in scripture?
Billie wrote:
Brother Gaines has become to you and your fellowship of bloggers the same as President Bush is to the democrates... "
You have a point. He does remind me in many ways of Bill Clinton.
Democrates? Would that be the opposite of "Republicanes"? If "cakes" sees that he'll probably adopt it as his new screen name!
"He can (excuse this analogy) spit on the ground and you would have something negative to say about it."
Well, having stepped in someone's gum just the other day and often stepping around globs of unidentified "stuff" on parking lots, I agree that would be disgusting and possibly subject to criticism.
truth,
Post a link to that page, please. (I don't mean just to Saving Bellevue, but to the page where you found that.)
Yes, Billie, I agree with mom4. My husband is a deacon, and every question that was posed to the leadership about the violation of Scripture at our church was met with absolutely no answers as to why this was happening. This has NOTHING to do with change of personality - goodness, we expected that - it is about following SCRIPTURE and doing things the way we are told to do in the Bible. If you are a Bible Fellowship teacher, I would expect you to know more about what the Bible teaches about leadership and what God expects out of our leadership. I Timothy would be a great place to start. This is about INTEGRITY and TRUTH, which is sorely lacking at BBC at this time. It has broken my heart.
Question answered:
Link.
Thanks, Karen!
Deacons......
I was reading Galatians this morning and ran across this...
Gal 4:17They make much of you, but for no good purpose. They want to shut you out, that you may make much of them.
When the Administration, especially the pastor and Caldwell find it to be a requirement that Deacons submit and raise the hand of the pastor...and more or less require a vow of silence....don't they do exactly what these men in Gal 4:1 do?
Ask around to the Deacons you know. Do they feel like they have been silenced? Are they "shut out" from any decision making?
Are they expected to make much of...the "Rulers"
Who are the "they" Paul talks about?
Gal 1:6-10 and 2:4......
Paul says He did not submit for even an hour....Gal 2:5-6
"Have you managed to find a church without selfish (sinful) people? If so, I'd kinda like to see it ... but only from far enough away that I wouldn't corrupt it by my presence! :) "
Somehow we still manage to call it sin at our church.
Dear Miss Billie (Is that your real name?),
Please read this exerpt from Joshua, it is about the Gibeonites deception of Israel and the very last verse will explain WHY it worked. It seems to fit the modus operandi of Steve Gaines. He as used the same tactics to gain control of Bellevue Baptist Church and he continues to bring in "his" people all the while running the last of the true men of God away with his stick of contempt. He is not what he seems.
Only a fool would think this division he has created is about "change".
Joshua 9:3-15 (New King James Version)
3 But when the inhabitants of Gibeon heard what Joshua had done to Jericho and Ai,
4 they worked craftily, and went and pretended to be ambassadors. And they took old sacks on their donkeys, old wineskins torn and mended,
5 old and patched sandals on their feet, and old garments on themselves; and all the bread of their provision was dry and moldy. 6 And they went to Joshua, to the camp at Gilgal, and said to him and to the men of Israel, “We have come from a far country; now therefore, make a covenant with us.”
7 Then the men of Israel said to the Hivites, “Perhaps you dwell among us; so how can we make a covenant with you?”
8 But they said to Joshua, “We are your servants.”
And Joshua said to them, “Who are you, and where do you come from?”
9 So they said to him: “From a very far country your servants have come, because of the name of the LORD your God; for we have heard of His fame, and all that He did in Egypt,
10 and all that He did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan—to Sihon king of Heshbon, and Og king of Bashan, who was at Ashtaroth.
11 Therefore our elders and all the inhabitants of our country spoke to us, saying, ‘Take provisions with you for the journey, and go to meet them, and say to them, “We are your servants; now therefore, make a covenant with us.”’
12 This bread of ours we took hot for our provision from our houses on the day we departed to come to you. But now look, it is dry and moldy.
13 And these wineskins which we filled were new, and see, they are torn; and these our garments and our sandals have become old because of the very long journey.”
14 Then the men of Israel took some of their provisions; but they did not ask counsel of the LORD.
No, I'm no Democrate, or a Republicane.
I do find it humorous that Bill Clinton is the measure of the Padre.
He instead reminds me of a certain President who spoils all he touches at home and abroad, launches an unwise war on false premises, promotes an ends-justifies-the-means ideology, lives in a bubble surrounded by toadies and yes-men, lets his minions take the fall for his arrogance and impotence. Yet, no matter his compounded failures, gets a pass from the loyal.
Yeah, I guess it's one's particular perspective as to what parallels are drawn.
Ok, I'm ready to be pummeled now.
cakes wrote:
"I do find it humorous that Bill Clinton is the measure of the Padre."
I don't. The similarities are eerie. But hey, we still love you, cakes!
Yeah, Cakes, we still love you....even when we disagree!
;)
Lin said...
Somehow we still manage to call it sin at our church.
Gotcha now. You were saying that sin should be called sin (as in an offense against a Holy God) and not just mistakes and selfishness (as in faux pas against fellow humans), right?
cakes said ...
He instead reminds me of a certain President who spoils all he touches at home and abroad, launches an unwise war on false premises, promotes an ends-justifies-the-means ideology, lives in a bubble surrounded by toadies and yes-men, lets his minions take the fall for his arrogance and impotence. Yet, no matter his compounded failures, gets a pass from the loyal.
You're right. Cakes ... he does sound more like Jimmy Carter! :)
Thank you Ms. Billie for the invitation to attend your class and to have a discussion regarding any issue I have with you. Hopefully I will be able to visit soon.
The invitation you extended for the Biblical Guidance counselors to give me confidence ?? -I know nothing about. Generally I am over-confident (some call it "Ms. Know-it-all") - would they help me in that area as well?
Thank you for your kind welcome. I would trust that it was not ever the intent of the Pastor or others to run me or anyone away from the church.
Please know that I ask forgivenss if there is any hardness of my heart due to my being repulsed by the sin so rampant at BBC or any other reason.
And yes, change is hard to accept for all humans, and yes, it was hard for me to accept juking and jiving in lieu of reverence, but I thought I could get past it. It's just that I couldn't get past the missue of scripture by the pastor and the misconstruing of God's teachings to cover the sin de jour.
Please know that when I visit I will not speak ill of the pastor nor gossip, I will just bring my Bible and be prepared to dig into the Word.
****
P.S. to Junkster - I thought Cakes accurately described Jimmy Carter too!!
"You're right. Cakes ... he does sound more like Jimmy Carter! :"
Ba Dum Bump! I got'a tell ya.
Carter, Bush....Same animal, different tuxedo. Both are bad presidents, but I digress :)
Thats why I'm not a Republicrat or a Democan.
cakes said,
I do find it humorous that Bill Clinton is the measure of the Padre.
He instead reminds me of a certain President who spoils all he touches at home and abroad, launches an unwise war on false premises, promotes an ends-justifies-the-means ideology, lives in a bubble surrounded by toadies and yes-men, lets his minions take the fall for his arrogance and impotence. Yet, no matter his compounded failures, gets a pass from the loyal.
Yeah, I guess it's one's particular perspective as to what parallels are drawn.
oc says:
If it wasn't someone whom you said has already been president (which that is debateable) and was a 'he',(some debate that too) I would have thought you were talking about Hillary.
Just sayin',
oc.
Okay, everyone. Enough politics. Let's move on to something more "on topic," please. :-)
NASS said,
Okay, everyone. Enough politics. Let's move on to something more "on topic," please. :-)
oc says:
OK. Sorry. How bout dem bears? Uh, I mean, how bout dem deacons?
Estes wrote: Is it the listing of specific sins, without using the term sin, that bothers you or is it that I dare post?
I ask because there are lists of specific sins being listed against BBC's pastor without using the term sin and your silence about the matter is noticeable."
Actually,Mr. Estes, it is neither. It really comes down to the fact that you are a 'pastor'.
Here is one example:
" I think the most plausible answer would be that the church is filled with people who still make mistakes and sometimes live selfishly rather than selflessly."
I used to attend a seeker church that also used the term 'mistakes' for sin. It is so much nicer but not real convicting.
But, after studying scripture in depth, I learned this is just not true. A mistake is when I misplace my Sunday School lesson or burn the casserole. A sin is when I am selfish..even a little bit selfish. My very thoughts are sinful! Even if I do not carry the 'thought' out in deed.
If I call being selfish a mistake...I have dumbed down the Holiness of God. I am not convicted of dishonoring and disobeying Him with my 'mistake'.
It is ok to be deeply convicted of sin because we have hope. Hope of salvation and a God who forgives when we are truly repentant. But we cannot grow in Holiness if we are not convicted of sin and being sanctified. (Which can look like defeat to the 'world')
I need a pastor who calls sin, sin from the pulpit. Some think that sounds so mean but it truly is not. If he cares about my eternal life, he knows that without Holiness I will not see God. (Hebrews)
None of us are without sin. If we say we are, we are a liar. (1 John) But how are we to even recognize sin when it is just so causually referred to as 'mistakes'? (Mistakes of the mind, mistakes of the heart, etc.)
We just keep lowering the bar for what is sin. That cheapens the precious Blood. That is broad road thinking and it is deadly.
I cannot really appreciate the Grace (or the Wrath He took on the Cross for us that we deserved) until I really understand sin. I cannot grow in Holiness unless I really understand the all emcompassing nature of sin.
Those who are forgiven much can really understand what I am trying to say. Because I love the Lord with all my heart, I must recognize sin in all it's depth. And that means not dumbing it down to a 'mistake'. I cannot say that because I am saved it is ok to just keep on sinning. Or to say, oh, it is a mistake. No big deal. It IS a big deal. Without Holiness, we will not see God.
I do not want to argue with you anymore, Mr. Estes. I say this in all sincerity, a heavy heart but with great hope: Your thinking and teaching here scares me because you are a pastor.
I pray that all reading the blog will be Bereans and let the Holy Spirit teach them the truths of God's Holy Word. Time may be short.
memhis said,
oc said...
Junkster shared,
From the Bellevue Today insert ...
3. The deacon is one who is to help create and preserve harmony in the church. He should be able to have and to maintain the reputation of keeping in confidence those things which should not be discussed openly. He should be wise and discreet.
oc says: Doesn't this sound a little 'cultish'? The endorsement of secrecy is a bit creepy, isn't it? And they are as bold as to actually print it. I wonder if there is a secret handshake?
Memphis adds:
In my opinion, this is not about secrets, but about spiritual issues or concerns that do not need to be hallway talk.
I would expect my deacon (if I knew who my deacon was) would be someone that I could talk to in confidence without him spreading details throughout the congregation. I do not find that out of line for a deacon.
11:22 PM, July 04, 2007
oc says:
I have done a little more thinking on this. And I thought to my self, 'self, why would you think that this is 'cultish' or secretive?
Why would you, oc, think in such a way? What would lead you to that conclusion?'
This is at least a part of it, I assure you. The fact that:
1)No one is allowed to have a membership list. You are not allowed to know who you are worshipping with. That's a secret.
And 2) It's none of your business what the pastor makes, even though you are paying it. That's a secret too.
3) By laws. ???? A little obscure here too?
4) Who appoints a minister? Is he God called or man called? (DC)?That seems to be a secret also.
And I'm sure there are more secrets that I am not remembering at this time. Those should be enough, however.
But those things, coupled with the admonition that the deacon "should be able to have and to maintain the reputation of keeping in confidence those things which should not be discussed openly. He should be wise and discreet",
have alarmed me and have brought me to the point where my mind thinks of Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, and the other 'follow blindly' (dare I say 'swallow and follow) religions which require obedience to the 'leader', organization, and system instead of the Lord Jesus Christ.
So yeah, my conclusion is that it is 'cultish', at least.
Just sayin',
oc.
And let me add to my 7:37 post. That would be called 'sin', I don't care who you are.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Solomon says:
Hamartia" simply means missing the mark, and I could just as accurately say that I sinned when I didn't take down a buck during hunting season. A basketball player sins when he misses a 3-pointer, and I sin if I miss the waste basket with a wadded up piece of paper.
oc says:
'Sin' put Jesus on the cross. I guess you missing a buck or missing a 3 pointer is what my Lord died over? Help me someone, because I'm about to go off.
Offline.
oc.
Lin is right on the mark in my opinion.
Many have reached the point, unfortunately, where the word 'pastor' does not represent what it once did to us. Many of us now view a pastor as one who is very capable of causing division in our churches, which is the case. This is so very, very sad, but true. Christians, who are now considered remnants, are on guard for false teachers. These remnants are those of us who have been forced from our churches for having stood for Truth. Fortunately, it is not difficult to discern these false teachers for some…for others, they are deceived.
I am attaching a link below that I strongly recommend listening to. It is a sermon delivered by Roger Oakland, who has been strong in teaching about false teachers and the many movements out there today we should educate ourselves to. This sermon is one of the best I have heard concerning this topic and he covers so many areas we need to be familiar with and be able to identify. It is lengthy, but worth every minute you devote to it. There is no point in talking more about this subject myself, when I have at my disposal this audio by Roger Oakland. Please take the time to listen to what he has to say.
Go to this link:
Wiles of the Devil
Then, scroll down to:
"2005-10-02 - Wiles of the Devil, Presented by Roger Oakland"
mp3 Audio
To download, click 'mp3' or to listen, click 'Audio'.
Ima
"Hamartia" simply means missing the mark"
Friend, I think you mean 'hamartano' which is 'missing the mark'.
Hamartia means 'offence'
Blessings to you.
Solomon,
You are correct in that the term sin is a word. In addition I don't think everyone who might use the term "selfish" is dumbing down sin but stating the specific sin. Scripture does this with terms like "lying tongue", "discord sower". I don't think any of us here would think the HS should have led them to use the term sin instead.
Thanks you for your thoughts on legalism.
God bless all of the preachers across our land who stand in the pulpit and don't mind preaching the Gospel each Sunday morning, evening, and Wednesday night without compromise.
God bless all of the preachers across our land who labor not for money but because they love the Lord and would willingly preach for nothing when in reality many just about do preach for nothing.
God bless all of the preachers who not only preach sermons but counsel, perform weddings, preach funerals, get up in the middle of the night to run down to the hospital because one of their flock is hurting.
God bless all of the pastors who live in small towns across our nation that don't have all of the amenities a larger city can offer their families. They preach week after week, year after year with humble contentment.
God bless all of the pastors who exhibit self control, are above reproach, faithful to their wife, live wisely, act respectable, are hopitable, are able to teach, not violent, gentle, peace loving, not a lover of money, able to manage his own family well, and have a great reputation in the community.
High standard are a must for any preacher because the responsibilities of leading a church are enormous.
1 Timothy 3:1-7
Solomon,
As I understand it, a sin is an 'offence' to God.
I could not find the words, Mistake or Mistakes in the NKJV, ESV, NASB, NIV or even the Holman.
Words mean things.
Grace to you.
nathanb..
Amen!!!...I am sitting under a pastor such as you describe now.
Solomon said:
A 'moral failure' will send the unsaved to hell just as much as 'sin'.
oc says:
Interesting. Moral failure is not a sin? I didn't know that. And there's a reason I didn't know that. It's because it's not true.
Solomon said:
Granted that the original Hebrew was a powerful word (negligence, rebellion, guilt, error), does the English translation convey equally strong meaning?
I don't consider this a hill worth dying on.
oc says:
It doesn't matter if you think it is a hill worth dying on. It matters if it is the hill called Calvary that One died for all.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Lin said...
I could not find the words, Mistake or Mistakes in the NKJV, ESV, NASB, NIV or even the Holman
"Even" the Holman? What meanest thou by "even"?
Lin said...
I could not find the words, Mistake or Mistakes in the NKJV, ESV, NASB, NIV or even the Holman.
Lin, I found it! 2 Cor 11:7, "The Message":
I wonder, did I make a bad mistake in proclaiming God's Message to you without asking for something in return, serving you free of charge so that you wouldn't be inconvenienced by me?
ESV has:
Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God's gospel to you free of charge?
The word translated "sin" in ESV (and paraphrased "bad mistake" in The Message) is hamartia.
Interesting that The Message is a favored translation amongst seeker-type pastors, huh?
I think this conversation is stretched a bit to the extreme. I am reminded of a post by NASS earlier today, I believe it was, comparing some behavior to that of little boys on the play ground. For any of us to want to say that Jesus died on the cross for our mistakes is a bit ludicrous. As for myself, Jesus died on the cross for my sins. There is a difference. In my dictionary, there is an entry under sin for the theological definition; it is:
Sin-Theology
a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
b. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.
Under the entry for 'mistake', I find:
Mistake-an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.
There is no theological entry in the dictionary for the word, mistake.
Let me say this: Jesus died on the cross for my sin, my deliberate disobedience to the known will of God; not for my mistake, a judgement caused by poor reasoning. There is a huge difference in not hitting the garbage basket with your paper wod by an error in calculation – and your deliberate disobedience to the the known will of God. One is sin and the other is a stupid mistake.
I wonder what would be a substitute for the word, “hell”? Hawaii is hot, but it isn’t hell. Hawaii isn’t where we will spend eternity for refusing to accept Jesus as our savior.
We need to stick to the terminology, the ‘wording’ that is in our Bibles.
imaresistor said...
I am sitting under a pastor such as you describe now.
Doesn't that get a bit uncomfortable for you both?
:)
Excellent commentary comparing "mistakes" and "sin" can be found here.
"Even" the Holman? What meanest thou by "even"?
Junk, It was kind of an after thought to check the Holman because it seems to be the official Southern Baptist Bible. Is that right?
Does this explanation pleaseth thee? Beloved, Hast thou been reading the KJV again?
After reading the posts from today .....I am so grateful that even at a very young age my grand child is being taught and trained to be obedient to God's word.
She is learning that when she is willful, disobedient to her parents, throws her toys in anger....
she is SINNING.
She is learning to recognize sin and to stop it
and ask for forgiveness
and pray with her mom or dad .She prays sincerely asking God to forgive her and help her to be obedient to His will.
Afterwards,she is so excited and hugs her parents and they rejoice together!
She is learning the joy of fellowship with our Holy God.
I thought they were starting this a little young at first.
I see today how very wise my daughter is to begin early.
Hopefully she will not buy into the world's way to rationalize and minimize sin or use a less offensive word like mistake.
this training of calling disobedience sin, learning the process of repentance, forgiveness, consequences, and the joy of pleasing a Holy God is the best love a parent can give a child.
NBBCOF...
Great post! Thanks for sharing this with us!
I hope all of you will read this (as soon as you get through listening to Roger Oakland and the "Wiles of the Devil" :))
Bottom line of this post is:
"Beware of false teachers who teach you that a sin is a mistake! "
And for The Messanger? It is of Satan himself!!!
Okay folks...let us get back on the right page here! Beware of false teachers!
Lin...
The Holman Bible is promoted by Lifeway. I believe it is a product of Broadman. I would suggest to anybody that they chunk it. It is full of 'mistakes'. Just like the NIV and some others. I bought three of them when they first came out and they are now history. I did a comparison of the Holman to the KJV and couldn't believe the discrepancies! Check it out for yourselves.
"If an admission is made of a violation of God's law, does it really matter what men call it?"
"I committed a 'harry'" just does not bring a lot of conviction to the soul. :o)
But, I think you are on to something, "I violated God's law" sure is more convicting than, "I made a mistake".
So when I am selfish (which I regretably am too much) then I have violated God's law which is sin. I committed an offence to our Holy God.
I did not make a mistake. I sinned.
Lin said...
Junk, It was kind of an after thought to check the Holman because it seems to be the official Southern Baptist Bible. Is that right?
Yeah, its the closest thing they got to an "official" translation. It was basically created because the Sunday School Board wanted to save the royalty fees from using the NIV in their literature.
Does this explanation pleaseth thee? Beloved, Hast thou been reading the KJV again?
When I was a young Christian, I wasn't familiar with "King James speak" (having not been raised going to church). So the first time I read in the Song of Solomon the phrase, "Behold, thou art fair, my love" I thought he was in love with an art fair -- you know, like when they show all the kids' paintings at school.
We must learn to follow God and God's word only, not man, any man, not even a smart man.....
False teachers will come....it is prophesied....we must be wary and alert. False teachers don't have a sign on their back or carry a card as a member of "False Teachers of America:" they look just like you and me, or like a university professor, or like a deacon, or like a pastor.
There will be many ideas, ideas that sound "cool" or "interesting" but seek only to lead us away from the majesty and mystery of God. There are theories and philosophical discussions and brilliant writers that are still wrong. If it doesn't match with scripture and the Character of God, beware! God says what He means and means what He says and scripture should be followed and studied in context.
Remember: 1 Corinthians 14:33 "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."
If you have to twist something, or rename it, or see what the great philosopher said about it, or look through 5 translations to get it to say what you want it to say, beware.
Junkster...
:) Took me a minute!
Guess I'd better scoot back a couple of pews, huh!
Seriously though, I am SO blessed. To have come through the bad days like we have, I know how to appreciate a good pastor when I see one! It is such a blessing.
If you haven't listened to the link I gave on Roger Oakland, please listen to him.
If you are a minister out there lurking, please listen to this sermon I posted a few posts back. You will be so blessed.
gmommy...
Praise God! Music to my ears!
My heart just breaks when I think of all the children being misguided by the false teachers so prevalent in the churches today. The 'easy believism, jump through the hoop salvation' just totally terrifies me! The parents are misguided, thus the children, and so the ball keeps bouncing in this manner. All of you lurkers out there reading this, please turn to your Bibles...study the Word!
gmommy...we must pray for the children!
concernedsbcr,
AMEN!
Junkster said, "So the first time I read in the Song of Solomon the phrase, "Behold, thou art fair, my love" I thought he was in love with an art fair -- you know, like when they show all the kids' paintings at school."
Comment: ROFL! You don't do!
gmommy, what a great thing your daughter is doing with her child! It is NEVER too early.
I purchased a poster from Christian Communicators Worldwide that is based on Bunyan's narrow/broad road in PP for children. It shows both roads and has verses applicable to each road. I let her pick a verse reference from the poster, we read it and we discuss it in context of the book and of the 'roads'.
It literally shows the broad road leading to hell and narrow road leading to Christ in heaven. Oh and it is gloriously cheap!
Here is a link url to copy if anyone is interested as a teaching tool:
(sorry about the link nass)
http://www.ccwonline.org/ptorder.html#ap
Lin and GMommy: The Children's version of PP is OUTSTANDING. It is easily understandable for early elementary children. I read it aloud to my crew and they loved it. It remains one of their favorites.
One of my favorites:
1John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (KJV)
If the use of the word "sin" doesn't matter, then why not use it? Obviously it matters to those who would rather use "mistake" or some other word...the argument is sophomoric at best. And why would they not use the word "sin"?...because people generally know what that word means. "Mistake" implies some mitigating circumstance..."sin" leaves no excuse. If one sins that makes him a sinner...if one makes a mistake...well...he's only "human"...not really THAT bad...yes, words mean things. A dumbed down religion in which sinners aren't really all that bad, doesn't really need a savior does it?...I mean why all that blood and agony for a bunch of mistakes and mistakers? All they need is a good therapist to talk them out of the guilt.
Even the Catholics grasp the difference between "sin" and "a mistake" early on. See the second grade cirriculum here.
NBBCOF...
I heard somebody say once that hitting your thumb with a hammer is a mistake; what you have to say about it is a sin. :)
Ima
allofgrace said:
… A dumbed down religion in which sinners aren't really all that bad, doesn't really need a savior does it?...I mean why all that blood and agony for a bunch of mistakes and mistakers? All they need is a good therapist to talk them out of the guilt.
****
I want to AMEN! your post even though the last part of it is causing me to have a Joel Osteen moment. That face – those teeth – the positive thinking pop psychology of feel-goodism he passes off is “another gospel.” And all of the pitiful millions of souls who follow him… if that’s not reason enough to call sin, sin, then we have no excuse for our ignorance.
I loaded the dishwasher last night and forgot to put detergent in it. That was a mistake.
I got up this morning and went straight for the coffee pot instead of getting on my knees to pray. That was a sin.
And...
coming into a church as it's new pastor.........totally distroying it all in the name of going purpose driven............is a sin. And this fits hundreds and hundreds of pastors today.
I agree, Ima. And I would add also, the untold number of regular church-goers who don’t know enough Scripture to recognize the difference.
Everyone,
Moderated comments probably won't be posted until early this evening. Please continue to write your comments, and they'll be posted as soon as I'm able. Of course, we know who's responsible for comment moderation having to be on at all! Too bad a couple of childish people with no honor or integrity have made it necessary. Unfortunately, when people can't police themselves, someone has to do it for them. (You know who you are.)
The topic of our children came up in our dialogue last evening. Although this is not the topic of the thread...Nass, forgive me...it is, without doubt, the future of the church. Our children are being blindly led, introduced to another Jesus...and the consequences of this are even to dismal to want to think about. Ironically, I ran across an article this morning on Slice of Laodicea about the children of the church...an important leg of that area is being discussed there. It would be a good idea to join in that discussion, to read what is being said there. It is the area of vacation bible school...
Most southern baptists use Lifeway's plan for vacation bible school. They make mega bucks (fitting description) off our churches all in the name of vacation bible school in behalf of our children. This year it was/is Game Day Central. Go to lifeway.com and look at the merchandise.
We used to learn about Jesus, not raceways. Our teachers used to teach us how to make things using their own ingenuity. Nothing came pre-packaged. We wore what clothes we had, we didn't feel we had to buy Lifeway's tee shirts to 'fit in'. Matter of fact, we had never heard of Lifeway...but we had heard about Jesus. That was the day before world had overtaken the churches.
Please take the time to go to this website and read what is going on in the vacation bible schools. Read what so many others are having to say about it. We are not in this alone.
Vacation Bible School
Ima
Mary said..."I agree, Ima. And I would add also, the untold number of regular church-goers who don’t know enough Scripture to recognize the difference."
And I might add that we are all accountable for learning scripture and that not doing so does not excuse our sin. It should be our first priority in life.
The fear of hell should be enough to make sure we are 'doing it right'. But...our love for God should make it easy and give us the burning desire to learn what he wants us to know.
Ima
The link didn't take...
Let me try again>>>
here
Ima said: "coming into a church as it's new pastor.........totally distroying it all in the name of going purpose driven............is a sin. And this fits hundreds and hundreds of pastors today."
Mary said: "I would add also, the untold number of regular church-goers who don’t know enough Scripture to recognize the difference."
And therein lies the issue. Believers who don't know the Word. Remember the Parable of the Sower?
Ima: The VBS link doesn't work. Can you try it again?
:)
Concerned:
Sorry about that. The link is right here
For those of you who didn't read my post about this...this takes you to an article and comments on Slice of Laodicea about vacation bible school in today's church growth movement.
This Sunday's Sermons ought to be interesting... jmo... A message on the Holy Spirit in the AM and on "Greed" for the PM...
The Holy Spirit and the Believer
Romans 8:14-17
1. We are ________ by the Spirit.
Romans 8:5-17, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Titus 3:5
2. We are _________ in/with/by the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13
3. We are _______ by the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20, 2 Timothy 1:14
4. We are _______ with the Spirit.
Ephesians 5:18-21, Galatians 5:22-23
5. We are _______ by the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:11, Romans 6:19-22
6. We are _______ by the Spirit.
Romans 12:4-8, 1 Corinthians 12:1-12
7. We are _______ by the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:1-5
8. We are _______ by the Spirit.
Acts 16:6-10, Romans 8:14
9. We are _______ by the Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30
*******************
The Danger of Greed
Sunday evening, July 8, 2007
The Danger of Greed
Acts 5:1-11
1. Greed is a ________ Acts 5:1-4).
Genesis 3:6, 2 Samuel 11:1-4, Mark 10:21-22, Luke 12:16-19
2. Greed is a _________(Acts 5:3).
Isaiah 14:11-17, John 13:21-30
Matthew 26:14-15
3. Greed has ________(Acts 5:5-11).
Genesis 3:7-14, Ezekiel 28:12-19,
Luke 12:20-21
4. Greed has a ______.
Hebrews 13:5, Philippians 4:11-13
Does a Christian always have to pray for forgiveness for simple wrongdoings? After all, it's under the blood, right? When someone commits a wrong, he knows it's natural to make mistakes. So if he's genuinely sorry about what he's done, he will learn from his mistake and strive not to repeat it. If he isn't repentant about whatever he's done and realizes he'll repeat the same mistake again and again, there's no reason to confess and ask forgiveness at all, is there?
New BBC Open Forum said...
Does a Christian always have to pray for forgiveness for simple wrongdoings? After all, it's under the blood, right? When someone commits a wrong, he knows it's natural to make mistakes. So if he's genuinely sorry about what he's done, he will learn from his mistake and strive not to repeat it. If he isn't repentant about whatever he's done and realizes he'll repeat the same mistake again and again, there's no reason to confess and ask forgiveness at all, is there?
6:15 PM, July 06, 2007
Your right NASS. I think Gaines falls into the latter Catagory.
And 25+.....you beat me to the punch. I was about to post the irony of the Greed sermon lol.
The Danger of Greed
Sunday evening, July 8, 2007
The Danger of Greed
Acts 5:1-11
1. Greed is a SIN AND INCLUDES LYING. Acts 5:1-4).
Genesis 3:6, 2 Samuel 11:1-4, Mark 10:21-22, Luke 12:16-19
a. Nobody should lie to the church.
2. Greed is a SIN (Acts 5:3).
Isaiah 14:11-17, John 13:21-30
Matthew 26:14-15
a. Nobody should fleece his sheep charging 30% markup to leading tours overseas.
b. Nobody should take 1/2 $mill package from a church for being its leader without the knowledge of the congregation.
3. Greed has CONSEQUENCES (Acts 5:5-11).
Genesis 3:7-14, Ezekiel 28:12-19,
Luke 12:20-21
a. They lied, then they died.
4. Greed has a HOLD ON YOU.
Hebrews 13:5, Philippians 4:11-13
a. The more you take, the more you want.
5:20 PM, July 06, 2007
A sermon on greed from Steve Gaines.
Reminds me of the class we went to on raising children - taught by PW.
Atleast Steve can speak from experience on this one. Let's not jump the gun here, folks. Maybe the guy has seen the error of his ways and is going to make a public announcement that he has decided to cut his salary in half.
I'll be waiting for someone to report on that.....
Relevant and worth a read:
Don Currin Ministries
Now, nathanb... he only overcharged them 20%, not 30%. The markup was 1 free trip for every 5 full-price fares paid. That means each person who paid had to pay an extra 20% to cover the freebies. We should strive for accuracy, you know.
Here is the breakdown.
Piglet said...
A sermon on greed from Steve Gaines.
LIES & DECEPTION??
Reminds me of the class we went to on raising children - taught by PW.
MORE LIES AND DECEPTION!!
20% may not sound like a lot since our tax is almost 10% and many times we tip 20% for good dining service.
However, when you break it down to the actual OVER-INFLATED cost per person, that figure is a WHOPPING,
$979.80..almost $1,000!! per person
That's a big hunk of change/free trips, huh Steve!
So, back to the topic of the thread, "Serving the Body or Serving Steve Gaines?"
Word verification.. ojppz
ima - excellent article - a perfect description of so many churches today -
"entertaining the goats rather than
feeding the sheep".
And Wiles of the Devil - frighteningly accurate.
Brings to mind Proverbs 10:21
The lips of the rigtheous feed many:but fools die for want of wisdom.
Thank you Lord Jesus for saving me; help me Lord Jesus to be more like thee.
Lilypad,
Hey, Lilypad, it's good to hear you out tonite.
I was beginning to feel like Junkster the other night and about to start talking to myself.
In fact, Don Currin's article is so on point, I want to print it and use it as a handout.
Copied in Part:
Sadly, much of the contemporary music that is presented today does not promote the loftiness of the Creator. Rather it humanizes God, magnifies self, and paves the way for a feel good religion. Of the tragic consequences that have resulted, contempt for the Lord’s song heads the list. Many church leaders seem to go to any extent to make the song of the Redeemer more palatable to the sensual taste of the lost. John Chrysostom warned, “Everything must be banished which recalls the cult of pagan gods and the songs of actors.” While noted hymnwriter Fanny Crosby admonished, “It is never right to take the lyrics of Zion and put them to the tune of Babylon”.
And no, it's not "about the music", it's about reverence and scripture.
Sin or mistake...
For me, it comes down to the similarity of my son making a mistake and doing something he should not, compared to doing the same something after I had told him not to do it.......
I imagine my Father in heaven would look at my mistake or my sin in a like manner......
My theory -
if you have music that promotes humanism and that "feel good about me, myself and I" -
then you are properly prepared to hear a "Sunday speech" that is not scriptually sound.
Can you tell that article by Don Currin lit me up? He put into words everything that I think and believe about the juking and jiving.
But still, let me reiterate, it's NOT ABOUT THE MUSIC. I like to juke and jive from time to time, it is just not something I associate with worshiping the Most Holy.
I also like a Thesarus:
Mistake: faux pas – blunder – blooper
Sin: transgression – wrongdoing – offense - crime
Even the old worldy thesarus sees sin and a mistake as being separate and distinct.
A Mistake is leaving your keys in the car.
A Sin is seeing keys in the seat of a car and stealing it.
concerned_for_bbc said...
However, as a dear friend of mine says often, if Steve Gaines left Bellevue today, the problems would still be here tomorrow.” Sadly, I agree with that statement.
11:46 AM, July 04, 2007
Do you think that many leaders including some on the search committee, knew precisely what they were getting in Steve Gaines?
Maybe the "GLOVE" fit perfectly!
Maybe, just maybe, they knew all about his greed, his love of money and his arrogance, maybe he was the man for Bellevue; at least the man for the corrupt leaders of Bellevue; of course not saying we have any.
Maybe he was the perfect man for their motives and coverups. Greed begets greed.
If they could OWN him, whatever they were hiding and have tried to keep hiddden for many years, would stay hidden. If they control the books and control the pastor, how can they ever be exposed??
The $MILLIONS$ of dollars that have left Bellevue Baptist Church will disclosed someday. Steve's reported 1/2 Million dollar a year package may be a pentance compared to what may be padding someone else's pockets.
Why did Chip Freeman leave BBC, go to the "Ugly Mug" and suddenly come back within a few weeks. Did he leave without signing a non-disclosure. Did they need him back to keep the financial information under wraps? Wonder what that return trip cost in our tithes and offerings?
Maybe this is more about MONEY than POWER, as we have sometimes thought. Follow the money!!
Maybe this is not about serving Steve Gaines at all, maybe they are serving themselves, maybe Steve is just their pawn.
These remarks are not aimed at the deacon officers photographed, I'm sure some are upstanding men of God. The 1st one on the left, front row, Terry Brimhall, is a man of integrity and honesty and a man that loves the Lord.
The one in the center, front row, Bryan Miller, we all saw his true colors, up-close and personal at the monkey-business meeting. What was that word Bryan, homosexual, was that the cue to "whack" the meeting. That word, homosexual, was never in the SBC proposal motion put forth..what was that all about?
As Dr. Lee said, "PAYDAY, SOMEDAY"!
Lily said...
And no, it's not "about the music", it's about reverence and scripture.
Amen and Amen
concerned_for_bbc said...
However, as a dear friend of mine says often, if Steve Gaines left Bellevue today, the problems would still be here tomorrow.” Sadly, I agree with that statement.
11:46 AM, July 04, 2007
Your are actually right. In order for any of these problems to be resolved, there will have to be a complete overhaul of the leadership. Gaines, Coombs, and probably 3/4 of the leadership will have to go before any true positive changes can take place.
concerned_for_bbc's first post on this thread, 11:46 AM, July 04, 2007, is well worth a re-read.
Who is Serving Whom?
NASS wrote: Does a Christian always have to pray for forgiveness for simple wrongdoings? After all, it's under the blood, right? When someone commits a wrong, he knows it's natural to make mistakes. So if he's genuinely sorry about what he's done, he will learn from his mistake and strive not to repeat it. If he isn't repentant about whatever he's done and realizes he'll repeat the same mistake again and again, there's no reason to confess and ask forgiveness at all, is there?
6:15 PM, July 06, 2007
Wow, there are quite a few concerns with this...
1. Did Christ die for our 'future' sins? So therefore we think...why not...it's covered? Should Christians think like this?
2. Comitting a 'wrong' does not sound like a mistake. Again, we need to define mistake/sin as you did in the link you provided which was excellent.
3. As far as the last sentence goes..that does not sound like a true Christian. Wouldn't a Christian agonize over this repeated sin?
What made you think of these questions?
lily said, "Can you tell that article by Don Currin lit me up?"
Reply: I can tell lily! His words lit me up as well!!! Did you read any of his other short articles? Don't you just know that it would be wonderful to hear this preacher in person preaching to you? Guess what? I am going to hear him this Sunday and two Sundays following that! Can't wait. How profound some pastors are...the ones teaching truth! And the Roger Oakland sermon...he hit it did he not? :)
Glad you tuned in to these.
Ima
Lindon said...
Did Christ die for our 'future' sins?
All of my sins were future sins when He died for them. But I may be just a bit younger than you ... :)
I have served in a ministry with Bryan Millier for years. His behavior at the business meeting was one of the MOST disappointing moments I have ever experienced. It reminded me once again, not to look to any mere man, but to Christ alone - thanks Bryan, but I am still sorely disappointed in how you and several others I have always looked up to have handled this whole situation. Amen to the comment about Terry Brimhall - he is still standing tall and a true servant.
Lindon said...
Did Christ die for our 'future' sins?
All of my sins were future sins when He died for them. But I may be just a bit younger than you ... :) "
Ok, I just did NOT communicate that well at all, did I? Thanks for pointing that out.
I guess what I meant was could a true Christian think, 'Hey, my future sins are even forgiven so it is ok to go ahead and do this (insert particular) sin...I can always ask forgiveness later?
(I am thinking Hebrews 10 on this one...???)
Lin, I knew what you meant ... just being my usual S.A. (Simply Amazing) self.
Junkster, What are your thoughts on the subject?
sheepless,
You should have lots of mail!
Lin said...
Junkster, What are your thoughts on the subject?
I think Paul addressed the concept well in Romans 6. As those baptized into Christ, we live a new life. (But not to think this indicates we are beyond the constant struggle with sin, God gave us Romans 7, too.)
ima - I saw where Don Currin was going to be in your neck of the woods twice in the month of July. The 8th is too soon to plan a road trip, but maybe, just maybe, a few of us could plan a road trip for the weekend of the 22nd.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Does a Christian always have to pray for forgiveness for simple wrongdoings? After all, it's under the blood, right? When someone commits a wrong, he knows it's natural to make mistakes. So if he's genuinely sorry about what he's done, he will learn from his mistake and strive not to repeat it. If he isn't repentant about whatever he's done and realizes he'll repeat the same mistake again and again, there's no reason to confess and ask forgiveness at all, is there?
6:15 PM, July 06, 2007
1. We should pray in and for all things, that would certainly include praying for wrongdoings, sins, even mistakes.
2. If one is not repentant and is not convicted of the Holy Spirit of his/her sins, it would seem one is not truly saved, not a Christian.
I fear and tremble at the thought of a man standing in the pulpit of God's church and not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.
There is a man in God's pulpit today that I would not want to sit within 50 yards of, for fear the wrath of God could strike at any moment.
Actually, there are several men I would not want to be near these days.
May God bring healing and revival to Bellevue Baptist Church and may we bring honor and glory to Him.
Thanks Junk...I am going to read that right now...
NASS,
Got it, saw all the dead grass too.
Please correct me if I am wrong in my thoughts and beliefs, but I believe that Christ died for ALL our sins - that would be past, present and future.
But that gift of salvation does not give us the carte blanche for continued sin. We are all sinners, we all sin, but after our transformation, we should pray for a heightened awareness of sin and be always repentent.
I know for the most part I am speaking "to the choir" and I know that many of you can say this more biblical than I, but the simple true is that Christ died for ALL our sins. However, His sacrifice for us does not give any entitlement (under the blood so to speak) were sin is concerned.
Hey Junkster,
I had a friend, now in Heaven, used to call me S.A., glad to know he meant "Simply Amazing". I likes that much better.
Sheepless, Amen! This why we must check all teaching we receive today.
How hard is that? Well, if you look at the sermon outlines that 25+ posted, it would take weeks! Think of it, every verse must be checked in CONTEXT of the entire book because it could be proof texted to fit his premise.
That would not be so hard if one is biblically literate but for those of us who aren't, this could be dangerous.
lily said, "but maybe, just maybe, a few of us could plan a road trip for the weekend of the 22nd."
Reply: Would that not be just incredible! You do know this is where I go regularly now?
Paul Washer is preaching twice this month there too. Maybe you need to just plan to spend the month. :)
Hey ima -
I wish I could move back!!!
Lin,
Be sure to read chaoter 8, too ... if he'd stopped at 7, we could easily feel condemned by being in this current state of stuggle with sin ... so God gave us chapter 8 to fucus us back on the power of His Spirit to overcome our flesh, and the future glory that awaits when He completes His work in us.
lily said:
I know for the most part I am speaking "to the choir" and I know that many of you can say this more biblical than I, but the simple true is that Christ died for ALL our sins. However, His sacrifice for us does not give any entitlement (under the blood so to speak) were sin is concerned.
11:09 PM, July 06, 2007
Lily, you are right. And to add to what you said....His sacrifice doesn't remove the accountability. Just because Jesus died for our sins, it doesn't mean we're exempt from being held accountable.
"Acts 5:1-11
1. Greed is a ________ Acts 5:1-4).
Genesis 3:6, 2 Samuel 11:1-4, Mark 10:21-22, Luke 12:16-19"
Just off the top of my head, I do not agree that the sin of Ananais and Sapphira was mainly about greed. Wasn't it really about lying to the Holy Spirit and also about Pride.
One sure thing remains about these verses: What a way to build a church! And great fear came upon them!! That would empty the pews real quick and only the very serious would remain.
Here are those particular verses:
3But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
4"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Peter makes the point that they could have kept it all or just given part of it but they chose to 'pretend' like they gave it all.
We, as Christians, inherit, if you will, a moral conscious for knowing right from wrong through our conversion. God is explicit in His Word that we are to ask forgiveness when we have sinned. When we are doing anything that we know is unpleasing to God, we need to ask forgiveness. It is that simple. And we need to do this as often as is necessary. If we continue to repeat a travesty with the attitude that it is ‘under the blood’ then we need to question our conversion. MHO…
lily,
Well, come on...
Ima, As one old dead guy put it:
The Holy Spirit is not going to let you wander too far off the narrow road if you belong to Christ. His bringing you back to the narrow road may hurt. but it is worth it. The real fear is if He is NOT chastizing you...ever. Then, you may not belong to Him.
The Lord disciplines those He loves.
Lin said...
Just off the top of my head, I do not agree that the sin of Ananais and Sapphira was mainly about greed. Wasn't it really about lying to the Holy Spirit and also about Pride.
So true! Had it been a matter of greed, why would they sell their property and give any of it away at all? It was about pride ... wanting to look good in front of others, and being deceitful to do so. To attempt to preach a sermon on greed using Acts 5 is to distort the basic sense of the passage. Any 1st year seminary student would know this ... a seminary grad, plus a Ph.D., plus years of ministry experience has got to know better. Soooo... if someone is bringing before God's people something that purports to be something it is not, and that person ought to know better ... isn't that the same as what Ananias and Sapphira did?? Can we say "irony"?
Nass, did you receive my email from yesterday?
Memphis
I just read Acts 5:1 - to the end.
The greed of Ananias and Sapphira may have been the focus of the intial questioning of Paul, but the focus was not upon greed, but upon the sin of lying. Greed is merely a byproduct of sin is it not?
Correction; When speaking of sin or greed, to use the word "merely" is incorrect as it gives the appearance of minimizing.
Lin wrote:
"What made you think of these questions?"
Well, I was reading this morning and thinking about the differences between "sin" and "mistakes" and how our pastor has often used the term "mistake of the mind" to seemingly justify what I would characterize as sin, i.e. climbing a fence and trespassing on private property to intimidate a deacon, trashing his sheep before the congregation of another church, mischaracterizing his "apology" to Jim Whitmire, etc.
One of the first things I found was the Catholic school ciriculum in which second graders are taught the difference between sin and mistakes. I thought to myself, if Catholic second graders are expected to grasp such a concept, shouldn't a Baptist preacher be able to as well? As Christians, shouldn't we all?
Then I found this one. Scary as it was, some of the comments were even scarier.
There were a lot of others, but this one, supposedly a quotation from The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey really got my attention:
"[The Satanist] does not pray for forgiveness for his wrong doings. [...] When a Satanist commits a wrong, he realizes that it is natural to make a mistake - and if he is truly sorry about what he has done, he will learn from it and take care not to do the same thing again. If he is not honestly sorry about what he has done, and knows he will do the same thing over and over, he has no business confessing and asking forgiveness in the first place." Book of Lucifer 1:para5-6
I thought to myself, how many times have I been honestly sorry for sin (let's call it what it is) only to turn around and repeat the same sin again? Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't confess our sins and ask forgiveness (not to mention make restitution to or ask forgiveness from those we've wronged when appropriate), and it doesn't give us "cart blanche" to go and sin more, but when does a "mistake of the mind" become a "mistake of the heart"? What exactly are the definitions of those two phrases, and is either considered "sin"?
I don't know, Lin. Maybe I'm just thinking too much today! I think I sprained something. (A "mistake of the mind," perhaps?) You know, I'm surprised no one jumped all over that when I first posted it. That whole "theology" of "why bother confessing sin if you're just going to sin again" and minimalizing sin by calling it "mistakes" is just so... wrong. (I guess this will now and forever be known as the BBC blog where the Satanic Bible was quoted.)
No, memphis. I didn't.
By the way ... re: Acts 5 ... a certain banned poster likes to make much of this passage as an indication that God supernaturally reveals secret sins ... but I can't see in the passage where it says that Peter got his knowledge that Ananias and Sapphira were being deceptive by supernatural means. Maybe he did, or maybe the person who sold the land told how much he sold it for. The passage just doesn't say. Jst a little lagniappe....
Good morning -- anybody here? I am working on the first pot of coffee and catching up on the blog, and what do I hear from the other room? The news is on; and they are talking about Sasquatch. Some guy has been all over Fox news -- he has done his homework and knows just where to look. He is forming an expedition....
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? Nothing and everything.
The last time I remember noticing a big flurry of Sasquatch activity was in the 1980s. We had hostages in Iran and had failed in an attempt to rescue them. Israel and Egypt had signed a peace agreement, which was followed by the assasination of Anwar Sadat. Lybia was giving us ulcers. Dr. Rogers was preaching on Ezekiel 38. And Sasquatch, posing as the "Fouke Monster," was once again on the hunt in Southern Arkansas.
Now, here we sit, waiting for the next terrorist's shoe to fall. We are trapped in a Middle East War, and watching the Clinton's try to regain the White House. Our schools are unfit. The church, our refuge from the storm, is no longer there.
And who should appear? Sasquatch!
I think he is a fear we can manage.
Jesus promised, "And, lo I am with you always, even unto the end of the age." Matthew 28:20 I think that is the next verse to go on my refrigerator.
CORRECTION:
Our refuge: Bellevue Baptist Church as we knew it, is no longer there. The church, the body, remains.
Is lying sin?
Why yes it is!
"When a Satanist commits a wrong, he realizes that it is natural to make a mistake -"
But Christians do the same thing with sin. We say it is normal. We cannot help it. And, my personal favorite...Oh, what do you expect, sinners- sin. Heard this one a lot,too: The churuch is a hospital for sinners, ad nauseum.
Let's face it. Let's be honest...we can tell by fruit whether I am seeking Holiness or just excusing sin because I love to sin.
Some will refer to sin as 'mistakes' or start on some kind of psuedo intellectual clap trap about 'sin' only being a 'word'. Well, Duh.
Like- 'incedent' is another word for 'rape'. Sure.
The big question is: How can we be growing in Holiness...being sanctified and STILL be continually sinning?
Some here are basically saying, Oh, yeah, we are all sinners, what do you expect? We will never be perfect...the bible tells us that. Sinners sin, etc.
Others are saying, yes I am sinner I need stay on my knees...and grow in Holiness because I want to see God. My sin is separating me from God....
Once again...it all boils down to our ATTITUDE toward sin. (1 John) How seriously are we taking it?
Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The key here, I think, is our own flesh crucified....crucified on the cross....dead to self, dead to sinful flesh.....He did say "take up your cross and follow Me".......
To look at sin as some do, we accept slavery to it and deny the work of Christ on the cross. Turning from sin and presenting ourselves
A Living Sacrifice
Romans 12:1I appeal to you therefore, brothers,[a] by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.[b]
1 Corinthians 15:34 (New American Standard Bible)
34(A)Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God I speak this to your shame.
Part of Satans deception is to tell us that we can never become sanctified or cleansed and that we just have to accept that we are sinners and do nothing to change it.....Jesus died to free us from sin. To not accept the gift is to reject it....
Honest men make honest mistakes and make honest efforts to correct them. What has happened at Bellvue is not an act of honest men but rather dishonest men who love sin and manipulate their environment to cover it up. Why would someone venture to assume that the Lord would bless such actions?
Churchmouse,
Have you given any thought to replacing Irma Bombeck?
fog machine,
I found this somewhere and thought I would post it for you and lin:
ARTIST: Jim Croce
TITLE: You Don't Mess Around With Steve
Lyrics and Chords
Downtown’s got its hustlers
Midtown’s got its bums
And Appling Road’s got big Dave Coombs
He's a big talkin son of a gun
Ya, he's big and bad as a man can come
And stronger than homemade cheese
And when the committees all get together at night
You know they do what big Dave ‘please’, just because, and they say
{Refrain}
You don't talk on the Preacherman's ways
You don't jump and yell “Amen”
You don't get to look at the big checkbook
And you don't call lyin’ a sin, da do da do...
Well out of south Alabama come a country boy
He said, "I'm looking for a man named Dave
I am a fast talkin' sneak, my name’s Pastor Steve
Back home I took all that they gave.
And I'm looking for the boss of Bellevue
He drives a Bud Davis Cadillac
I’ve upped my gig, I’m gonna make it big,
You all can take a big step back," and everybody said, Jack, don't you know
{Refrain}
Well a hush fell over the choir room
When Steve he come boppin' off the street
And when the cuttin' was done
The only ministers left were the ones that signed the sheet.
And he had cut 'bout a hundred places
And he threatened a couple more
And you better believe they sung a different kind of praise
When big Steve took the floor
{As refrain}
You don't talk on Preacherman's ways
You don’t jump and yell “Amen”
You don't get to look at the big checkbook
And you don't call lyin a sin, da, do, da, do...
{Repeat}
{Spoken}
Yeah, big Steve got his ball cap
Find out where it's at
And not hustling people strange to you
Even if you do got a cushy front row pew.
Churchmouse!
How multi-talented you are! I printed that one out to send to jib-jab! Thanks!
Good morning, Ima!
Irma Bombeck? You are so nice. I have thought of giving you my password so that you could delete my posts from time to time.
=)
I will be preaching on Colossians 4:2-6 (from the series I am doing through Colossians) this Sunday AM. I will be dealing with the speech of the believer. The 6th verse is awesome.
Col. 4:6 (NKJV)
Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.
I have been reminded that what I type, though I may never utter the words, verbally, these words are my internet speech.
Forgive me if I have typed in a manner which has been interpreted as less than graceful or any humor has not come across as such though cyberspace. As I have stated prior, this has never been my intention.
In more context...Col 4: NKJV
5 Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time. 6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.
what does 'seasoned with salt mean'? Best I can tell it means something like: 'spiced with prudence'.
'Each one' see,s to include non believers in the Greek as best I can tell and also because of the reference to 'outsiders' in verse 5.
Does anyone believe this means we cannot should not warn about the Wrath that is to come? Or does this mean we should call sin, mistakes because it is more 'graceful'?
The Legalist. :o)
Churchmouse,
How nice it would be to be privy to some of the passwords on some who post here! A real field day...
Your posts never need be deleted my friend.
churchmouse,
Not to worry...
:)
Ima
Thankyou Ima!
I would agree that not all mistakes are sin but all sins are mistakes.
Mistake means to make an error.
er·ror –noun
1. a deviation from accuracy or correctness; a mistake, as in action or speech: His speech contained several factual errors.
2. belief in something untrue; the holding of mistaken opinions.
3. the condition of believing what is not true: in error about the date.
4. a moral offense; wrongdoing; sin.
It is amazing that the use of one word has gripped so many people in a negative way. From my being accused of dumbing down the gospel for not using the term sin to a myriad of posts making extreme examples for the sin of using the word mistake.
I guess I am glad I gave y'all something to talk about. ;-)
Jon, Did you not read the link Nass provided about mistake/sin in her July 5, 11:05 comment?
The link goes into quite a bit of scriptural detail and is worth a read.
Satan doesn't spell very well...
mis·take –noun
1. an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.
Lin,
Since NASS used sin in the noun form, should not we also look at the term mistake in the same form and not as a verb.
If one is not careful we could find ourselves comparing apples to oranges and not noticing.
I am also amazed that you would want to take a mere persons word on the subject. I'm sure Sandy Simpson is super intelligent but it is still the word of a person, something you have come to digress unless it makes your point. Or so it seems.
gmommy wrote:
"Satan doesn't spell very well..."
Trully he doesn't, does he? He couldn't in any of his previous incarnations either. For that matter he can't read too well. He has a very limited vocabulary.
gmommy,
His grammar's pretty bad, too.
jon estes,
You seem to make everything that's said on this forum, whether it's addressed to you or not, about you. The comments concerning the difference between "mistake" and "sin" were just that...not about jon estes. I don't know whether you dumb down the gospel or not since I've never seen or heard one of your sermons. I do however know what I'm hearing when I hear it. Minimizing sin is no small issue...to minimize sin is to minimize the cross, and the magnitude of grace and mercy displayed there. It also fools depraved sinners into thinking their desperate situation isn't that desperate. The holiness of God is what's at stake here...to call sin less than what it is, is an offense in itself against the holiness of the One sinned against.
Keep posting WHY....you show the world who you are each time you do.
Keep accusing......
Jon may try to deflect with apples and oranges but your agenda flashes like a neon sign.
Call me whatever few words you can spell.....keep attacking......
you also show the world who the truth seekers are each time you point that hateful finger.
Maybe I am missing something but it seems gmommy is comparing (at best) or intentionally calling someone (at worst) Satan.
If I am correct I would like to understand why one believer would do such a thing to another person, whether a believer or not.
Is this acceptable exchange on a thread which many want to make sure we know the difference between mistake and sin?
If I am reading right, and I would love to be corrected, this was intentional and therefore, not a mistake.
why,
Your rantings here have reached a state beyond ridiculous..you've been banned from this forum, yet you sin yourself by continuing to come here after being told not to. You have 3 fingers pointing back at yourself.
Allofgrace,
I have not minimized sin in any way. If someone or many don't like the term mistake, all one could have done is ask what I meant. I have been asked a myriad of other questions, one which really made sense to be asked, was not.
I am not making this thread about me but I am hoping to convey and clarify what is being mistaken about my use of the term mistake.
I have posted very little on this thread for the purpose of seeing how for the mistaken interpretation of my comment would go.
If you would like one of sermons, just ask... I might have a DVD or two around which I could send you. But then you might have to reveal your true identity and that would not be good for you.
Wouldn't it be nice if certain people would concern themselves with exercising self-control and practicing honor and respect, rather than asserting they are not under someone else's authority?
why, you are missing the point...you don't own this blog...the blog owner does, and whether you agree with them or not, they have the right to ban anyone they deem fit. In reality you are trespassing, since you've been told time and again to not come back. If you broke the law by trespassing on someone's property would that not be sin?...it's the same thing. You seem to think that because you believe the blogowner is sinning, that that somehow gives you the right to come here even though you've been banned...your opinion does not grant you any rights. Someone such as yourself, who seems to think you have drawn a sharp bead on what sin is or isn't should know that, no?
jon,
Again...my only address to you was concerning your apparent thinking that everything that's said is aimed at you...if I think you or anyone else in particular is minimizing sin...or is in error on any other subject, I'll address that to you by name...otherwise you can assume I'm addressing the subject matter. I'm not that shy, and have no qualms addressing particular people on a particular subject...just ask anyone on this forum who knows who I am ;)
why said...
how am I sinning by posting?
Luke 6:31: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
Would you honestly have people annoy you and disrespect your wishes?
why said...
I have seen things on this blog I never thought I would ever see.
Me too ... chief among them, your posts.
Sorry, NASS; I'll stop the troll feeding now.
I have posted very little on this thread for the purpose of seeing how for the mistaken interpretation of my comment would go.
jon,
You should step back and take a look at that statement, because it looks very close to saying you're purposely baiting people to try and pick a fight...so you can then point out how graceless they are? Kinda like shooting fish in a barrel don't you think?
In my opinion, Lin's 10:14 post should be nailed to the church doors. Amen, and Amen.
Mom4 said: "What has happened at Bellvue is not an act of honest men but rather dishonest men who love sin and manipulate their environment to cover it up. Why would someone venture to assume that the Lord would bless such actions?"
Because there is no longer FEAR of the Lord. Without FEAR of the Lord, there is no fear of consequences.
Churchmouse,
Your songwriting ability is impressive. I was looking for a stanza about fencejumping and tour fleecing.
I guess I'll have to wait for the next album.
I think Why is Steve Gaines. That is the only way I can explain his "Do as I say Not as I do" postings. Very simular to Gaines "Do as I say Not as I Do" sermons.
aog wrote:
"jon,
You should step back and take a look at that statement, because it looks very close to saying you're purposely baiting people to try and pick a fight...so you can then point out how graceless they are?"
I concur. It sounds like that's exactly what you're doing, Jon. Why in the world is it worth your time hanging out here? Is playing tag team with the troll that much fun? Really, you do seem to have an ulterior motive.
jon,
In the best interest of all who post here...and I mean everybody...don't you think it would be a good thing for you to bring your ministry here to a close? I should think you have congregants who would appreciate your opinions...and want your help. The people here don't really need your advice...nor ask for it. Many are a step ahead actually. You seem to do nothing more that cause a stir.
I have responded to you very little because I don't really see the point. In fact, there is much in your posts that I have to read several times to get the jest of what you are trying to say, such as: "I have posted very little on this thread for the purpose of seeing how for the mistaken interpretation of my comment would go." I did fine until I got to the part where you say, 'for the mistaken interpretation'. I finally decided after several minutes of study you must have meant 'far' instead of 'for'. It makes a difference you know. I am no English scholar, but I do aim for clarity. Not meaning to be rude, but maybe you should pay more attention to this and strive more for clarity.
Most of the people here have been badly treated to the point of feeling 'pushed' out of their church for many years, in most cases. I would think you would have more feeling for them that what you do.
I am not interested, nor do I want, your opinion on anything I have said. I should just ask you kindly to give tremendous thought to what I have said about closing your ministry out here. I have grown to love the people here and they deserve people with more compassion that what you show.
Blessings,
Ima
Mr. Estes wrote: I am also amazed that you would want to take a mere persons word on the subject. I'm sure Sandy Simpson is super intelligent but it is still the word of a person, something you have come to digress unless it makes your point. Or so it seems."
Me too! I am grateful that Mr. Simpson did some deep digging on the subject of referring to sin as 'mistakes'. I pray everyone will read the link and study scripture in context, prayerfully for truth.
Jon said: "I have posted very little on this thread for the purpose of seeing how far the mistaken interpretation of my comment would go."
Jon, this statement concerns and angers me. We are together on this blog to try to positively impact the direction of BBC, and due to far reaching readership, other churches too. There is false teaching permeating our churches (as prophesied) and baby Christians aren't being given meat to mature. Not ALL churches are experiencing this phenomenon, but enough are that there is grave concern about believers following men not God. And here you are, a man of God, admitting to "stirring the pot" of a group of dedicated, humble, hard-studying Christians. I am appalled and disappointed in you.
AOG: Thank you for your post about trespassing here on the blog. Those banned need to understand that this blog is "owned" by Nass and he/she can determine who "visits." It's very much like gated communities....fences and gates are placed there to allow those in who are known or who are known to be able to behave. Crossing fences into private areas against the owners wishes is certainly, without a doubt, SIN.
So, banned friends, I realize you are following in your pastor's footsteps, but why don't you instead follow in Jesus' footprints. Face consequences for your actions and obey the rules.
"Since NASS used sin in the noun form, should not we also look at the term mistake in the same form and not as a verb."
Mr. Estes, This logic is a bit flawed to me. Using another example such as the word 'rape'.
Is 'rape' a noun or a verb..or both? Answer: Both
So, what if we use the word word 'incident' to describe 'rape'. Just does not carry the same weight, does it? It does not communicate real truth.
'Sin' is both a noun and verb.
'Mistake' is both a noun and verb.
The meanings of both according to scripture are different.
But, Mr. Simpson really has dug deep on this subject in the link Nass provided above. He gives lot of scriptural references for us to check and be Bereans.
jon estes said:
Maybe I am missing something but it seems gmommy is comparing (at best) or intentionally calling someone (at worst) Satan.
If I am correct I would like to understand why one believer would do such a thing to another person, whether a believer or not.
Is this acceptable exchange on a thread which many want to make sure we know the difference between mistake and sin?
If I am reading right, and I would love to be corrected, this was intentional and therefore, not a mistake.
oc says:
Yep, it's all about you, jon estes. The blog, the world; all about you.
Love your neighbor as yourself. Esteem others as more worthy than yourself.
Try that. Don't love yourself more than what is warranted by Scripture. Don't get infatuated and enamored with yourself. Oops. Too late to stop the sin. But not too late to repent.
Just sayin',
oc.
allofgrace,
I was unaware that I have been asked to not come back. If this is so, would the blog owner please confirm. If I have been banned I would not return to post.
It seems that WHY has been banned. I don't know why because it happened prior to my posting anything or taking time to read this blog on a daily basis.
allofgrace said...
I have posted very little on this thread for the purpose of seeing how for the mistaken interpretation of my comment would go.
jon,
You should step back and take a look at that statement, because it looks very close to saying you're purposely baiting people to try and pick a fight...so you can then point out how graceless they are? Kinda like shooting fish in a barrel don't you think?
2:06 PM, July 07, 2007
I am not trying to pick a fight. One of the first response to my use of the term mistake was addressed to that person and I responded as led. It was then I stepped back to see, not because I desired the attention but because, for some reason, my words became the attention. No one has asked me what I meant but have shared what they meant and through that inferred my words were less than biblically correct.
I try to post in response to other posts, not direct the flow of discussion. If that occurs, it may not be me turning the topic.
Jon L. Estes said.....
I have posted very little on this thread for the purpose of seeing how for the mistaken interpretation of my comment would go.
If you would like one of sermons, just ask... I might have a DVD or two around which I could send you. But then you might have to reveal your true identity and that would not be good for you.
1:52 PM, July 07, 2007
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, and I certainly hope I am, but what exactly do you mean by "you might have to reveal your true identity and that would not be good for you."
On the surface it sounds like a threat to me.
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