During a recent meeting of a concerned group of BBC members with David Coombs and three other staff members, one of the things the members stressed was that Steve Gaines does not seem to demonstrate that he has a shepherd's heart nor does he seem to demonstrate love to the members in general.David Coombs asked what the pastor could do to demonstrate love. The members' answer was that there is no magic formula, that love demonstrates itself from a heart filled with the love of God.
So let's help Steve Gaines and David Coombs. What are we looking for in a pastor?
Thanks to "aslansown" for this topic idea.
733 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 733 of 733Part of the problems we see now exist because for far too long church members have depended on pastors to do everything. Matters of discipline, doctrinal issues, etc. is the responsibility of the congregation as a whole. As 25+ put it, the priesthood of all believers. And yes, it's of ALL believers, not THE believer...all believers form a priesthood...with responsibilities.
Lin said...
junkster, you are just not reading the right blogs....e-mail me and I will send you a list!!
What I had in mind were those pastors who come by this blog to criticize the bloggers with precious little to say regarding pastors in error. I wasn't saying there aren't plenty of good pastors out there standing for truth! I know there are.
But let's get real ... how likely is it that someone would get up at the floor of the SBC and call a minister in doctrinal or moral error by name and say that they all as pastors had an obligation to publicly condemn that man's teaching and ministry and to separate from it? Instead they will hide behind the doctrine of local church autonomy and not do that the Bible commands them to do as pastors.
Junk,
Where in that scripture does it say "speak out publicly"? It does not.
Perhaps you have not, but I have heard pastors speak out. However, most pastors don't broadcast their criticisms of fellow christians or fellow pastors. In some cases some might blame a "good-ole-boy" network; however, for most of them, I believe it is due to Galations 6:1.
Galatians 6:1 "Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted."
Part of the problem is that there is a lack of knowledge at BBC of all that has gone on. If many BBC members are in the dark, how does anyone expect 37,000 pastors in the SBC to know the details of BBC's problems?
When in combat sometimes friendly fire happens. The issue remains you must remain level headed enough not to shoot those in your squad but keep the sights clearly on the enemy.
When dealing with sensitive issues like those in these forum, its guaranteed that someone will hurt.
25+: We surely don't mean to "shoot" each other.....I have utmost respect for my fellow bloggers. You are right....we are all responsible for upholding the Truth of God's Word. There are wonderful pastors serving God....I do wish the focus wasn't on the few that aren't. However, a little leaven in the SBC affects the whole lump as well......imho
Unless I misread the Scriptures, the commands given to pastors are in the context of the local body. A pastor from one assembly has no authority over the pastor of a different body. If you're referring to Paul's rebuke of Peter, then you're speaking of a different animal...Paul spoke in apostolic authority..whole different scenario.
Junk, In my experience they always say they have no 'tangible' facts. Just heresay. Then they call the pastor who gives them their version and that ends up being enough for them.
At least plausible deniability in case it gets too public and there are guilt by association factors.
Keep in mind that most SBC pastors think the congregation will remove them. (I think some are pretty relieved that BBC did not remove Gaines)
But since we have built our churches around personalities this is not going to happen. Not only that but (boy am I going to get creamed for this one) we PAY ministers and staff to do the things the priesthood should be doing...as part of the Body of Christ.
Eventually, the people coming to church become the audience...NOT the true Body.
"If you're referring to Paul's rebuke of Peter, then you're speaking of a different animal...Paul spoke in apostolic authority..whole different scenario. "
I agree he had NO authority over Peter. You don't believe he rebuked Peter as a brother in Christ?
25+ said:
"There is also something expected of the priesthood of believers at BBC... Frankly the majority has what they want. They will answer to the Lord Jesus for that. It does not merely fall upon pastors."
Piglet says:
I agree. It's been very discouraging that a petition for an open business meeting can only get 466 signatures!!
I am still amazed at some of the people who have stayed. Are they not at all burdened at the open disregard for scripture and accountability? How can they listen to a man who has proven over and over again his sinful attitudes and lack of discernment?
Some say they are unhappy to our faces, and then our kids see "Morning Manna" on the coffee table in their home...I don't get it!
25+ said:
"Perhaps you have not, but I have heard pastors speak out. However, most pastors don't broadcast their criticisms of fellow christians or fellow pastors. In some cases some might blame a "good-ole-boy" network; however, for most of them, I believe it is due to Galations 6:1."
Piglet says:
I'm glad you shared this with us. I had to believe this was happening privately if not publicly. You have encouraged me. :)
Junk,
You have mail.
Of course they were brothers in Christ..but they were apostles..and there were only 12..they had apostolic authority.
25+,
I don't understand why my statements that pastors are to speak out about other pastors in error are bringing out such a strong reaction. Are you a pastor or do you have some strong personal or family connection to one? I've never said anything contrary to anything you are saying, but it sounds to me like you're jumping on my words in an argumentative way, when all I've done is point out an obligation of pastors that it seems to me is often unfulfilled. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but I don't understand the response I'm getting.
25+: You've got mail.
:)
concernedsbcer
Check your mail.
Nothing yet.......
"they had apostolic authority."
Aog, Help me here. Did that 'apostolic' authority leave earth when they died? I am not so sure I understand where you are coming from. Was this authority granted only to build the early church?
This is the verse I was referring to:
Galatians 2
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
allofgrace said...
Unless I misread the Scriptures, the commands given to pastors are in the context of the local body.
I don't see that. Acts 20 has elders from Ephesus coming to see Paul ... unlikely from historical context there was only one congregation there large enough to have multiple elders; much more likley these were the pastors of multiple house churches. Paul's command was for them to shepherd (and protect the sheep of) the "church of God" ... doesn't sound like a reference to a single local church to me. But I could be wrong ... it's happened before!
concernedsbcer
I tried again. :(
Again I refer to the apostolic authority of Paul...he had authority given him and the other apostles by Christ in instructing the churches..which would include the elders of those churches. You can't place pastors today in the same apostolic role as Paul.
Piglet: Sent you one...did it come through?
concernedsbcer
I got yours and replied. Having trouble with yahoo mail. Sorry.
Good night truthseekers! Sleep well.
:)
allofgrace said...
Again I refer to the apostolic authority of Paul...he had authority given him and the other apostles by Christ in instructing the churches..which would include the elders of those churches. You can't place pastors today in the same apostolic role as Paul.
Not sure if you are responding to Lin or to me with this. But the passage I've been referring to speaks of Paul's direction to the elders regarding their obligations to the flock, including the pastors' need to be diligent regarding other pastors. He was giving them instructions for what to do regarding each other after he was gone. That's a pastor-to-pastor obligation, not an apostle-to-pastor issue.
ezekiel said...
kaylee,
While prayer is important, and I don't want to minimize it, even more important is to obey. Obey God's commandments and statutes.
See Deuteronomy 28. The reason we have the world in a tailspin today is explained in this scripture. We are living the curse. All because we refuse to obey. It all comes down to disobedience. You can pray all you want, but they won't get above the ceiling if you don't do the will of God. And you don't know the will of God if you don't read His Word.
Reply:
I have been taught and believe that we can not understand the Scriptures unless we pray and ask God to give us understanding so that we can be fully obedient and keep them. Example: Thou shalt not murder-but after praying and spending time with God; He convicts there are different forms of murder. The same with adultry and false idol worship. When I say, "meet with God" this is what I am talking about. Let me explain a little more: If I read the 10 commandments and purpose to obey them but do not spend time alone with God to learn from Him the depth of each of them I might go out and commit the acts in my heart while I condemn someone else for literally doing them. I am young and I maybe wrong but I believe many of us set ourselves up to be judged by other Christians when we go out and jump on another person's sins. I am afraid to do that even if I think they are wrong because when I spend time with God I always see my own condition, my thoughts are not always good but I wish they were.
Kaylee
Some one requested some more info on my teacher's lessons. She only uses the Bible to teach from and we go verse by verse. We love our teacher she is a very godly woman.
One of my teacher's comments was about Nehemiah and Isaiah. Both confessed, "our sins" they included themselves in with those who had not kept the laws of God
when they entered into true heart to heart prayer with God.
Kaylee
Kaylee: You are right when you say prayer and Bible study go hand in hand. However, many people do not study as much as they pray; that was my point. In your studies, please take special note of how we as Christians are supposed to act towards each other, how we should obey God's laws AND man's laws, and in James and Timothy, how leaders in the church should behave. They are held to a higher standard. Lying, stealing, bearing false witness, not making graven images to replace God.....all these commandments have been broken by the leadership at Bellevue. It's heartbreaking. I just want you to see clearly that when these acts are looked at through the filter of scripture, they are wrong. God demands that His people stand for the integrity of His Truth, to keep his "bride" pure.
Just a few things to think about, pray on, and study.
Take care! :)
What is the biblical position for congregational rule, as Baptists practice it?
From where I sit, in both the pastoral and general epistles, we see in the local body that accountability and responsibility is circular in nature. There is neither autocratic rule, nor mob rule by the congregation. All are accountable to each other and all under Christ's rule. The church both universal and local functions as a body with different parts, no one part more important to the function of the body than the next..each has its role in the proper function of it. That, in my opinion is the Biblical model of the church.
Jon,
The Biblical position is that the wolf is in the hen house!
Jon,
What is the biblical rule for zero tolerance of dancing and drinking as Baptists practice it?
Also, what is the biblical rule of the Holy spirit being recieved upon baptism of water as baptists practice it.
If you want to pick out a doctrine and make a case for or against it, "as Baptists practice it" congrgational "rule" should prolly be way down on the list.
However, you seem to want to stir the dust up on Congregational rule. BBC as I understand it was once congregationally "aproved". Not sure it was ever "congregationally ruled".
You may need to find someone else to ask that question. We find ourselves today, well.....confused. Because we seem to be neither, congregationally aproved nor elder led. More like elder ruled and I dont think we voted on that...we just got it.
Maybe you can give us your biblical rule for that.
ezekiel wrote:
"Also, what is the biblical rule of the Holy spirit being recieved upon baptism of water as baptists practice it."
Baptists believe that? Sorry, not this Baptist!
allofgrace said...
From where I sit, in both the pastoral and general epistles, we see in the local body that accountability and responsibility is circular in nature. There is neither autocratic rule, nor mob rule by the congregation. All are accountable to each other and all under Christ's rule. The church both universal and local functions as a body with different parts, no one part more important to the function of the body than the next..each has its role in the proper function of it. That, in my opinion is the Biblical model of the church.
10:33 AM, July 03, 2007
Thank you for your response. Most Baptist churches are set up for congregational rule. The people get the final say so. I'm not arguing against this but am seeking to see if anyone can give biblical precedence for such structure.
I am of the opinion that this could be more baptistic than biblical.
ezekiel said...
Jon,
What is the biblical rule for zero tolerance of dancing and drinking as Baptists practice it?
Also, what is the biblical rule of the Holy spirit being recieved upon baptism of water as baptists practice it.
If you want to pick out a doctrine and make a case for or against it, "as Baptists practice it" congrgational "rule" should prolly be way down on the list.
However, you seem to want to stir the dust up on Congregational rule. BBC as I understand it was once congregationally "aproved". Not sure it was ever "congregationally ruled".
You may need to find someone else to ask that question. We find ourselves today, well.....confused. Because we seem to be neither, congregationally aproved nor elder led. More like elder ruled and I dont think we voted on that...we just got it.
Maybe you can give us your biblical rule for that.
11:09 AM, July 03, 2007
A church getting stuck with a bad pastor should not determine the truth of the matter concerning congregational rule or congregational approved (whatever that means).
I am not here to attack anyone but I am hoping what I say or ask can make someone stop and think before speaking irrationally or emotionally.
I'll state that no church should be led by a dictator or someone disconnected from the people (NOTE: not all pastors who get accused of these two things are really that). There are some church members out there who are hateful while others are hurting. One can drag the other down, if they are not careful.
A biblical case can be made for elder / pastor rule, that does not mean everyone who is a pastor / elder should be one.
Kaylee,
May God bless you in your search for the TRUTH.
There are many teachers out there today. Rather than sit and pick through your statements and give you the idea that I judge you, I want to leave you with this. Judge everything you see and hear against the WORD (1Cor 5:12-13). To do this you have to know it and the Holy Spirit will teach you if you ask Him to.
There is no man that will ever be able to teach you what you need to know. Don't allow man, any man, take the seed that has been planted in you, and grow it into a shallow mere practice of religion. Find Him yourself. Build your house on the ROCK.
John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Mark 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isaiah 54:13 And all thy children [shall be] taught of the LORD; and great [shall be] the peace of thy children.
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Heb8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
Nass, I guess that I still have Junior Hill in mind.
I got the distinct impression that the focus of salvation was on coming down to the front of the church and getting baptised.....
Did Mr. Hill not represent Baptist doctrine or did I just sleep through the message?
By the way..."Not this Baptist" either!
zeke wrote:
"I got the distinct impression that the focus of salvation was on coming down to the front of the church and getting baptised.....
"Did Mr. Hill not represent Baptist doctrine or did I just sleep through the message?"
Oh, yeah. I forgot about him. I've heard him preach only a couple of times, and he talked a lot about salvation. He just never got around to the specifics of how one is saved. I kept waiting, but it never came. I thought at the time that was very odd. Perhaps he was just "off his game" that day.
Brother Jon,
This has puzzled me too. I’ve been searching the Scriptures for days trying to justify this one, and if it’s there, it eludes me.
Nowhere in Scripture can I find a local assembly of believers being ruled by majority opinion; and nowhere can I find a local assembly being ruled solely by one pastor. Rather, there seems to be a prototype for local church leadership that consists of a plurality of God-ordained elders.
Mary,
I concur. I have been a baptist longer than I have been a believer. We have always said we were people of the word but there are some areas we like being baptist a great deal better than being biblical.
I like the biblical picture of elders but it is my observation that we have very few men capable of holding the position. Lack of biblical knowledge is one of the reasons.
And just as a church does not need a rogue pastor, it does not need ignorant elders or power hungry members. Popularity has become too familiar to the local church, from who gets to teach to who gets to be a deacon to who becomes pastor. And if a new pastor becomes unpopular, sharpen the ax, it's head hunting time.
Thanks for your comments Mary.
Jon,
"A biblical case can be made for elder / pastor rule, that does not mean everyone who is a pastor / elder should be one."
12:34 PM, July 03, 2007
I think I asked you to make that case....not just tell me that it could be made.....
As far as "congregationally aproved" means, ask any of the BBC old timers. As I understand it, BBC was "pastor led, deacon served, congregationally aproved".
Someone that has been here longer than I have may be ble to correct me or expound on it.
As far as congregational aproved, Paul gives us the impression here that the majority acted in the punishment of the sexually immmoral person in 1 Cor 5.
2 Cor 2:6 Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority,
Then we also have 1 Cor 12:ff
Especially....
24whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,
25so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
Jesus is the only head of the body...when reading 1 Cor 12
It becomes apparent that no one in the church is esteemed higher than any other.
Unfortunately, the pastor has elevated his postion or we have done that for him. AS we have learned, this pastor ruled, stuff sure is devisive..
No congregational involvement silences all th gifts, and subjects the congregation to peril...IMHO. Now how about that business meeting?
Jon wrote:
"I like the biblical picture of elders but it is my observation that we have very few men capable of holding the position. Lack of biblical knowledge is one of the reasons.
"And just as a church does not need a rogue pastor, it does not need ignorant elders or power hungry members. Popularity has become too familiar to the local church, from who gets to teach to who gets to be a deacon to who becomes pastor."
Oh, so you have been to BBC! You just described the "elders we didn't know we had" and the crony system that's been in place for years. The deacon selection committee has been headed by the same person for the last 10+ years, and he often has the only say in who gets to be a deacon and who doesn't (or who is called back into the rotation and who isn't). That's but one example. Oh, and before Karen reminds us, this man was one of the four fence jumpers.
This is what our new "Administrative Pastor" (a position that was created by Steve Gaines and never approved by the congregation) had to say about the subject:
"...we respectfully suggest that those members who disagree with certain decisions made by those duly appointed by the entire congregation (you weren't appointed by the entire congregation, Mr. Coombs) are entitled to strive to move into positions of influence and leadership by convincing the congregation of their worth and entitlement to such positions."
It makes me ill every time I read that.
You can read more of Mr. Coombs' thoughts here.
Jon wrote:
"I like the biblical picture of elders but it is my observation that we have very few men capable of holding the position. Lack of biblical knowledge is one of the reasons."
True. Lack of integrity is another.
Ezekiel
I did not take your questions seriously since there seemed to be much sarcasm in the comment.
Think on these things:
The sin of immorality was dealt with in the church (see 1 Cor. 5). One of the believers had been involved in a scandalous disorder and, instead of judging this sin, the Corinthian believers were puffed up with pride. So Paul had to write to them and say, “. . . when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1 Cor. 5:4-5). Such was the punishment meted out to this offender that Paul wrote at a later date and told the church to receive the repentant man back into fellowship, adding, “This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man” (2 Cor. 2:6).
Notice they were following Paul's instruction, not making decisions for themselves.
The 1 Cor. passage you site deals with the understanding of our interdependence, not about congregational rule.
How do you interpret Hebrews 13:7 and 13:17?
Kaylee wrote: "I am young and I maybe wrong but I believe many of us set ourselves up to be judged by other Christians when we go out and jump on another person's sins. I am afraid to do that even if I think they are wrong because when I spend time with God I always see my own condition, my thoughts are not always good but I wish they were."
Let's take that thought to it's only logical conclusion. According to your beliefs above, no one could ever call out or judge a pedophile minister becaue they, themselves, have sin.
BTW: And I think it is mean and divisive for you to use the words 'jump' on another person's sins. It was judgemental and besides who are you to point fingers? (See how that works?)
NBBOF said...
Oh, and before Karen reminds us, this man was one of the four fence jumpers.
FUNNY ONE! :)
By the way, my dad a pinched nerve in this back and has been put on some steroids to reduce swelling. Please pray that the steroids will work well enough for him to have his knee surgery in 3 weeks. Apparantly he won't be able to have it with a pinched nerve because he won't be able to do the rehab. So prayers are appreciated! :)
First "Formal" church structure:
Acts 6
1Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint by the Hellenists arose against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution. 2And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, "It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables. 3Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty. 4But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word." 5And what they said pleased the whole gathering, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch. 6These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and laid their hands on them.
7And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.
Notice end of verse 7.
Regardless of chosen style of church government, at the end of the day, the success or failure of such style still depends on the honesty and integrity of those involved.
NBBCOF posted a statement by Coombs
"...we respectfully suggest that those members who disagree with certain decisions made by those duly appointed by the entire congregation (you weren't appointed by the entire congregation, Mr. Coombs) are entitled to strive to move into positions of influence and leadership by convincing the congregation of their worth and entitlement to such positions."
Piglet says:
And don't forget - we have been told that any of us in opposition were GUARANTEED to never hold any position. That keeps things nice and simple, now doesn't it Mr. Coombs?
25+, Junkster, AOG,
Good comments last night. God, through the OT prophets and even Jesus condemned the scribes and pharisees.
However, they each spent a great deal more time talking to the man in the pew......
Some have talked about chucking spears lately......
The Zeal of Phinehas
10And the LORD said to Moses, 11"Phinehas the son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, has turned back my wrath from the people of Israel, in that he was jealous with my jealousy among them, so that I did not consume the people of Israel in my jealousy. 12Therefore say, 'Behold, I give to him my covenant of peace, 13and it shall be to him and to his descendants after him the covenant of a perpetual priesthood, because he was jealous for his God and made atonement for the people of Israel.'"
For far to long we have sat back and paid our pastors to wage a proxy war against sin...sin in our homes and sin in our church, sin in the body.
May we all gain the zeal of Phinehas, pastors and pew, to turn to the Lord, humble ourselves and seek His will. Obey his statutes and commandments.
Here is a great site that has quite a few articles on authority in the church. These articles will drive you to scripture.
http://www.batteredsheep.com/index.html
Be a Berean!
Hebrews 13:17
This verse is often used to support command authority ...which the Revised Standard Version renders, "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account."
The imperative translated "obey" is from the word peitho, "to persuade." In the middle voice, used here, Thayer's lexicon gives its meaning as "to suffer one's self to be persuaded." Again there is no thought of a right to command someone against his will, but the clear thrust is that leaders are persuaders whose ability to persuade arises not from a smooth tongue or a dominant personality, but from a personal walk which evokes respect.
Ray Stedman
Jon,
Notice they were following Paul's instruction, not making decisions for themselves.
Actually, if you read 1 Cor 5:12,13 Paul is asking he church...the letter was written to all of them....why they were not judging "those who were in the church".
In other words why are you not doing this for yourselves? Why are you not judging your members?
Then he goes on in 13 and emphasises...."REMOVE THE WICKED FROM AMONG YOURSELVES"
At least that is the way it is written in my NASB.
So not only is he chiding or rebuking them for not acting on the sin...he uses his authority to instruct them to do it....when they did not do it originally.
"The 1 Cor. passage you site deals with the understanding of our interdependence, not about congregational rule.
That is sort of like saying that the qualifications for ministers are "only guidelines".
In the context of the first letter to the Corinthians....more or less rebuking them for the problems they were having, the immorality they were not acting against.....
The passage tells us what Paul thinks we should be doing as a congregation. That we each have our gifts to exercise. We each have our place. Some as teachers, some as diswashers, some as prophets....This goes hand in hand with the whole idea that when Christ is in us, we are all equal...."neither male nor female" remember?
Sons of God
Galatians 3:26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Do you believe in the doctrine of
"The prieshood of the believer"?
LIN! Ooh that website is GOOD! I highly recommend reading the article at the bottom of the "About" page, titled "Why I Left Our Way Church" - it's eerily familiar. By the way, this verse is on that page as well - thought it fitting for the conversations with kaylee today:
Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses. (Proverbs 27:5-6, NIV)
Jon,
As to your sarcasm comment...
I was not being sarcastic. I asked honest questions. Questions that you don't want to answer.
I am pretty sure you got the point as evidenced by your lack of willingness to reply.
Many things we do as Baptists don't really line up with scripture. They have evolved from what ever legalistic bent that the leaders of the time wanted to enslave the people with. We still do it today. Drinking and dancing are just a couple of the more blatant ones. Don't even get me started on tithing.....
So when you come on and make a statement, to make a point that we don't appear to be following scriptural guidelines when we organize the church the way we do, at least be honest enough to admit that there are other things that we do that are just what they appear to be.....The practice of religion...and nothing more....
Fellow Bloggites,
As I reflected on my comments last night and the responses to them, I thought it best for me to clarify some things.
First, I must acknowledge that I have little knowledge of what has been said either publicly or privately by pastors to or about SG or other pastors in error. All I know is my own very limited exposure, so I do not mean to indicate that all (or even most) pastors have been remiss in their duty to help guard the whole flock of God. I apologize if my words seemed to imply anything of that sort.
Second, I have great respect for godly pastors and appreciate all they do in serving Christ and His bride, the church. It is often a thankless job, or at least one that whatever appreciation is shown or expressed is far too little for the effort extended.
Third, I do not believe that pastors are to be blamed for all the ills of churches, and neither can good pastors be blamed for the actions of not-so-good ones. As has been stated, it is every members' responsibility to know and live by the truth and hold each other and their pastors' accountable to the truth.
I believe that pastors do have an obligation to the church as a whole in regards to warning against "rogue pastors" and in seeking to correct such pastors. And I believe that there have been times when, for various reasons (fear, intimidation, the desire to be liked, a misunderstanding of the doctrine of autonomy, etc. -- the same issues a non-pastor could face), some pastors have lax in this responsibility. But I do not believe this is the case with all pastors or even the majority of them, and I am very thankful for all those men called by God who are seeking to be faithful to His calling on their lives and to keep focused on the main things Jesus has commanded of them.
Anyway, hope that helps clarify what I was (and wasn't) talking about. :)
ezekiel said...
Jon,
As to your sarcasm comment...
I was not being sarcastic. I asked honest questions. Questions that you don't want to answer.
Thank you for the clarification. I don't mind answering your question but you have not answered mine. This is an open forum you don't have to respond but not answering questions of others then expecting me to answer yours is a bit hypocritical.
I'll wait for your response to my question, since I did ask 1st.
So when you come on and make a statement, to make a point that we don't appear to be following scriptural guidelines when we organize the church the way we do, at least be honest enough to admit that there are other things that we do that are just what they appear to be.....The practice of religion...and nothing more....
My question was an honest question which I believe is more appropriate to the topic than dancing or drinking. I could be wrong.
I do believe church governing structure is an important issue to the BBC crisis. I stated earlier...
And just as a church does not need a rogue pastor, it does not need ignorant elders or power hungry members. Popularity has become too familiar to the local church, from who gets to teach to who gets to be a deacon to who becomes pastor. And if a new pastor becomes unpopular, sharpen the ax, it's head hunting time.
I will be praying for you as you seem to be a bit emotional (not a bad thing) right now.
Father, give each of us who post on this blog, wisdom to see clearly Your will and to know Your word. Nothing more, nothing less.
Jon,
How do you interpret Hebrews 13:7 and 13:17?
Considering the current circumstances, I would get side tracked at 13:7
Hebrews 13:7 (New American Standard Bible)
7Remember (A)those who led you, who spoke (B)the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, (C)imitate their faith.
I am to imitate their faith.....after I consider the result of their conduct........
In this case, the word of God they are speaking to me, and the result of their conduct leads me to believe that they don't know where they are going.....
Are you saying that I should follow blindly? Or should I be judging the path by the complete counsel of God....the WORD and react apropriately?
Why do we have all the warnings from Paul, Peter, John, Jude to watch out for false teachers...then follow them blindly?....I don't think so.
That takes me back to the qualifications of a minister. If you don't meet the qualifications should I follow you?
Try telling that to all the folks that went to PW for counseling...Ask them if they followed Heb 13:7 and 17
Ask them if the leader that put them in that position, knowing better, should be followed.
Let's look at the verse...
7Remember (A)those who led you, who spoke (B)the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, (C)imitate their faith.
Ask these questions:
1 - Are you being led towards Christ?
2 - Are you being given the Word of God?
If not, then the result of their conduct is not to be imitated because it is not a life of faith.
If the answers are yes, then follow them, listen to them, imitate them as they imitate Christ.
"And if a new pastor becomes unpopular, sharpen the ax, it's head hunting time."
Harboring pedophiles does tend to make a pastor somewhat unpopular with some. Not all...but some.
"I will be praying for you as you seem to be a bit emotional (not a bad thing) right now."
Ezekial? Emotional? No way. Some of us have been blogging with Ez for a long time. We know better than to buy into that one.
Now, he IS passionate about the Word.
Seems to me that with 'less' dependence on the Holy Spirit than in New Testament days, and with the written Word, education, enlightenment, knowledge, etc., that attempting to make a case for for ministers to have the position of Paul, Peter, et al, is a bit of a stretch. IF we were more concerned about the Priesthood of the Believer (all believers) and the Lordship of Christ over our lives, and experienced a revival of the Love of Christ in our hearts, preferring others above ourselves, any discussion about which one of is in charge would be a moot issue. Sad that most leaders define leadership as control. That ain't it! (I wrote this in a rush so not interested in debating any point. Just making an insignificant contribution to the heavier stuff already noted.)
Eprov,
Your 5:24 post. Right on,brother.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Jon,
If you are so shallow minded that it suits you just fine to follow a man blindly that has intentionally put women and children in harm's way with a SEXUAL PREDATOR then you should move your membership here and sit on the front row.
Do you even GET what a sexual predator is? Or are you like the lost that are still at BBC that think it's no big deal?
You can lead the standing O's for all the lost people who think SG is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
After all, " a little molestation never hurt anybody" right?
I've kept quiet all day and enjoyed the deep discussion. However, I just can't let this comment by Jon pass: "And if a new pastor becomes unpopular, sharpen the ax, it's head hunting time."
I am appalled by this, Jon, as you seem to still not grasp the scope of the situation at BBC. Let me just do a Reader's Digest Condensed Version Recap:
Yes, a pastor is unpopular who allows a pedophile to stay on staff 6 months after he knows of the issue.
Yes, a pastor is unpopular who jumps a fence in a designated no trespassing area to "visit" someone who is in disagreement with him. Oh, and don't forget he took 3 of his buddies with him too for said visit.
Yes, a pastor is unpopular who will not allow regular open business meetings.
Yes, a pastor is unpopular who changes the culture of a long-established church.
Yes, a pastor is unpopular who goes to other congregations to complain about his current congregation.
Yes, a pastor is unpopular who tries intimidation tactics with staff members, church members, and even seminary presidents!
Yes, a pastor is unpopular who gives $25,000 to a church who supports abortion and homosexuality without bringing it up for a vote.
Yes, a pastor is unpopular who uses church credit cards for personal expenses. While these funds were reimbursed, they still remained tax-free, totally putting the church in a bad position as a 501C organization.
Do you get the idea or do I need to continue? Look, we all know this stuff, and anyone who has read the blog for any length of time already knows of these situations. But they've not been answered to or dealt with and there are so many more. These issues go against scripture and are dangerous in so many ways to the body.
This is not a whiny bunch of folks who want to hear hymns all the time....these are truthseekers who are standing up to the misuse of power, leadership, and scripture.
I hope you can understand and appreciate the difference.
sickofthelies said...
Jon,
If you are so shallow minded that it suits you just fine to follow a man blindly that has intentionally put women and children in harm's way with a SEXUAL PREDATOR then you should move your membership here and sit on the front row.
Do you even GET what a sexual predator is? Or are you like the lost that are still at BBC that think it's no big deal?
You can lead the standing O's for all the lost people who think SG is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
After all, " a little molestation never hurt anybody" right?
6:09 PM, July 03, 2007
Where have I demonstrated, spoke in favor of, supported following a man blindly? It would do you good to go back and see what I have said before you post such nonsense.
Junk99: You point out one of my favorite passages - Paul warns the elders at Ephesus, not merely to keep watch over the flock, but to keep watch "over yourselves." Why? Because wolves will rise up "among you." I believe we are seeing the forewarned of wolves, and they are savaging the flock.
Jon...
I have read very little of today's post. And I am not as interested in your conversation as I probably should be. But I am coming right to the point...I'd like to know if you are a purpose driven pastor? Do you follow the methodology of Rick Warren, or perhaps Bill Hybel? Are you into contemplative spirituality/prayer as is Rick Warren, and many others? What is your opinion of Lifeway? Do you support the items they sell? The books on comtemplative prayer, new age, homosexuality, purpose driven, seeker sensitive, mysticism, church growth movements, all this heretical stuff? Do you buy your literature from Lifeway...your Small Group/Sunday School literature? Have you been to Saddleback? Willow Creek?
You have told us little about yourself. Since you have such an interest in us, tell us about yourself why don't you? It might help us to understand you better.
Oh, and do you know Steve Gaines, ever met him? Have you ever been to Bellevue Baptist Church? Do you know any of the members who attend Bellevue? Did you know Dr. Rogers?
Ima
Jon,
It is zeal, brother. For the WORD. For Jesus.
The one we find in John 1.
As to the prayer.......I need all the help I can get. Thanks!
You haven't been around long. Let me save you some time. I have read the WORD front to back in KJ, working on it again in ESV/NASB. Up through 2 Corinthians now.
I don't say that to boast....Many here have MUCH more WORD in them. The fear overcomes me......The God that one finds in the word is not the one some pastors have been telling us about.
He is love, mercy and grace. But not exactly man's idea of any of those. Mercy because He gives us so many chances and doesn't burn us up right now. Love because he loves us enough that he showers us with his grace..........and that grace includes not only blessings, peace and such but also affliction. The kind that Paul talks about.
And I get frustrated that I don't have the communication skills to make it all sound good, like people want to hear.
I have little or no tolerance for pastors that come on the blog and cry "peace. peace" when there is no peace.
So rebuke me if you feel led...I will learn from it.
Just know that I use the whole bible. And I have it in context. And I get more of it every day.....
"abide in me and I will abide in you" really does happen.....
So lets leave off the "touch not mine anointed" stuff. The ruler stuff.....domination, thrown under the bus of legalism......and start telling people how only the Holy will see heaven......and intentional, repetitive sin will not be overlooked. There is no more sacrifice for it.......
imaresistor said...
Jon...
I have read very little of today's post. And I am not as interested in your conversation as I probably should be. But I am coming right to the point...I'd like to know if you are a purpose driven pastor?
I do not follow what others say about Rick Warren. I say that because I have never read anything he has written or kept up with him. What I know, from conversation or blogs concerning the subject, I am not interested in reading his stuff.
Do you follow the methodology of Rick Warren, or perhaps Bill Hybel?
No.
Are you into contemplative spirituality/prayer as is Rick Warren, and many others?
I do not know what these are.
What is your opinion of Lifeway?
I like LifeWay, I have spent the past 7.5 years leading FAITH Sunday School Evangelism clinics for them.
Do you support the items they sell?
I don't know all that they sell but I do buy much from them. I think they have a better retail store than anyone else.
The books on comtemplative prayer, new age, homosexuality, purpose driven, seeker sensitive, mysticism, church growth movements, all this heretical stuff?
I have not looked for anything in these categories.
Do you buy your literature from Lifeway...your Small Group/Sunday School literature?
Yes.
Have you been to Saddleback? Willow Creek?
No, No.
You have told us little about yourself. Since you have such an interest in us, tell us about yourself why don't you? It might help us to understand you better.
I did that a little bit ago, about my family and myself. Here is what I said.
About me for your benefit: I'm not an unloving beast but a pretty good pastor who loves his people and the world. I am evangelistic by call and love being with other people. I'll grad a hammer or mower and join in the work for the church or neighborhood. I do missions and not just talk about them. I preach above par and love spending time with my grandchild and am looking forward to the second one being here in Nov. Both my boys serve in the USCG. Fine young men who love Jesus and their mom. A great but shy daughter-in-law. I need to lose weight and we just bought our home. A great buy on a golf course where we are updating it as quickly as we can. My wife and I love walking, though we need to pick up the pace for health benefits. The people at the church I pastor love me (I'm still fairly new here though - LOL). I sometimes try and be funny and it does not work.
Now you know a little about me so maybe I won't seem like a stranger.
Oh, and do you know Steve Gaines, ever met him?
Not personally. I have seen him at the conventions but have never spoke one on one with him.
Have you ever been to Bellevue Baptist Church?
Yes
Do you know any of the members who attend Bellevue?
I have known some who have attended some years ago.
Did you know Dr. Rogers?
Ima
7:17 PM, July 03, 2007
I have met him and spoke to him, briefly. Nothing fancy or special for him, I'm sure. He has long been one of my heroes.
concernedSBCer said...
I've kept quiet all day and enjoyed the deep discussion. However, I just can't let this comment by Jon pass: "And if a new pastor becomes unpopular, sharpen the ax, it's head hunting time."
If you took this in context of my complete post you would notice I was not speaking of BBC or any certain church but the church in general. Of pastors, elders, and membership --- in general.
Is there a reason yo thought I was speaking of you and others? Which I was not doing.
Ezekiel,
I will continue to pray for you.
jon, you said to SOTL,
Where have I demonstrated, spoke in favor of, supported following a man blindly? It would do you good to go back and see what I have said before you post such nonsense.
Reply: Oh, you are very clever. What seminary class was it that taught insinuation? Because it's not even very good. I hope you didn't pay for it, because if you did, you got ripped off. You say things such as,
"And if a new pastor becomes unpopular, sharpen the ax, it's head hunting time."
Do you think that was a truthful statement? Was it really from the heart? Was the statement an effort to help give understanding?
Yeah, no one else here thinks that either. Keep coming on here thinking that you can outsmart the beaten sheep, and slap them around a little more. Then do your best praying, and look Jesus in the eye, and go repent. Or you can continue to try to make yourself feel important by condescending remarks such as the one you made to SOTL. You are the one who posts nonsense. You don't take into account the sin that has been perpetrated by your fellow associate, and you cheapen the blood of Jesus by disregarding the pain of the beaten sheep, for whom He died for. If you really are a shepherd, should you not love the sheep, instead of attempting to denigrate them by your arrogance? Of all people, you should be feeling their pain, not adding to it.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Hey Jon,
Normally, someone doesn't become unpopular until there is reason. Such as the laundry list of reasons Gaines has become unpopular.
Jon...
When were you at Bellevue Baptist Church?
Do you know anybody on staff at Bellevue?
Ima
Ezekiel,
Brother, you have beautiful communication skills because you LOVE the pure word of the Lord.
You have no personal agenda.
You love the TRUTH.
you don't dance around the truth,
you don't manipulate the truth.
Bless you for your passionate, "emotional", ZEAL for what is good and pure and right before the Lord!!!!
I am proud to call you brother!
imaresistor said...
Jon...
When were you at Bellevue Baptist Church?
Do you know anybody on staff at Bellevue?
Ima
8:35 PM, July 03, 2007
Gosh Ima, It would have to have been 15 or so years ago, maybe longer.
No, I do not know anyone on staff at Bellevue.
Does this surprise you?
Jon,
Thanks again for the prayers.......
I hope you are sincere and not trying to marginalize me. You guys practice that real well too. Comments like you make to Sotl, looking down your nose, I will pray for you.......Just know that I am the publican at the alter......what does that make you? The ground at the foot of the cross is real flat.....and it has blood on it.....shed for me......and you.
I hope you are real sincere.....
jon estes said,
concernedSBCer said...
I've kept quiet all day and enjoyed the deep discussion. However, I just can't let this comment by Jon pass: "And if a new pastor becomes unpopular, sharpen the ax, it's head hunting time."
so jon estes said:
if you took this in context of my complete post you would notice I was not speaking of BBC or any certain church but the church in general. Of pastors, elders, and membership --- in general.
Is there a reason yo thought I was speaking of you and others? Which I was not doing.
7:52 PM, July 03, 2007
oc says:
How dare you talk about someone being out of context. You ignore the whole context of this blog. What is the name of this blog? For instance, what does the BBC in the title of this blog stand for? It's not the British Broadcasting Company, I'll assure you. And when you are asked to explain an obviously impulsive and thoughtless statement, you retreat into your own context. Arrogance. I believe you wandered upon this blog by accident, and you don't know how to get off.
"Is there a reason yo thought I was speaking of you and others? Which I was not doing."
Yeah. Context. Get some.
oc.
Thanks gmommy!
OC,
I have never stated, inferred or insinuated that you or anyone should follow any man blindly Something is clouding your reading ability to what I type.
I have presented that you should tell the truth, tell it boldly but tell it with grace.
You seem angry at me and I apologize if I have offended you.
My statement using the term ax was hyperbole. I truly thought it would be noticed. I guess not.
Jon...
No, I am not surprised. Just curious. Thank you for your prompt replies.
Totally sincere.
I do not look down my nose at any of you. As I have stated prior, I hurt for you and the whole BBC mess.
Jon Estes posted (in part) the following at 12:34 PM today:
I am not here to attack anyone but I am hoping what I say or ask can make someone stop and think before speaking irrationally or emotionally.
I'll state that no church should be led by a dictator or someone disconnected from the people (NOTE: not all pastors who get accused of these two things are really that). There are some church members out there who are hateful while others are hurting. One can drag the other down, if they are not careful.
A biblical case can be made for elder / pastor rule, that does not mean everyone who is a pastor / elder should be one.
Mary says:
Brother Jon came to this blog under his own name and with a profile linking to many of his own writings; and yet, he has been shown precious little in the way of common courtesy much less any true Christ-like love that one should have for another who is a brother in Christ.
Anyone here can take a few minutes of their time and read some of his blogs and discern a great deal more about Jon Estes than he is likely to ever know about any of us.
Perhaps Brother Jon is sincerely trying to be helpful to us in our own Christian walk, while not wishing to knock BBC, SG and company, and the things of which he has no first hand knowledge. And then again, perhaps not. He could be here to add further torment at the behest of SG and company.
He could be mentally ill and playing mind games. Or he could have pain of his own that he does not feel free to share with us.
My point, dear friends, is that we do not know the answers, and since we do not know, should we not give him the benefit of the doubt when he says what I quoted above from his earlier post this afternoon?
Does he deserve to be peppered with a zillion questions, or welcomed as a brother in Christ and treated as such, and engaged in civil discourse until and unless he shows us differently?
I am saddened and very ashamed.
You may now take up stones…
Mary
jon estes,
You owe SOTL an apology. How about it?
OC,
Are you saying unless someone is going to be anti-SG and/or the direction BBC is heading under the present leadership, they should not post here?
Jon,
What really pains me is that it is happening in a lot of other places as well........
It is called apostacy, I think. A great falling away. the WORD is the only one that can stop it. And I don't think He will. Until He gets ready.....somewhere around Rev 17:1-5.
Thanks again for the prayers!
jon estes said,
OC,
I have never stated, inferred or insinuated that you or anyone should follow any man blindly Something is clouding your reading ability to what I type.
I have presented that you should tell the truth, tell it boldly but tell it with grace.
You seem angry at me and I apologize if I have offended you.
My statement using the term ax was hyperbole. I truly thought it would be noticed. I guess not.
OC says:
By the way estes, I understand hyperbole, etc. Thank you for your condescension. I am also adept at noticing arrogance hypocritically shielded by the word 'grace'. And I have no problem reading. My education probably rivals yours, including theologically. Get off your high horse.
oc.
jon estes said,
OC,
Are you saying unless someone is going to be anti-SG and/or the direction BBC is heading under the present leadership, they should not post here
oc says: Oh boy. Come on. Do yourself a favor and take the same advice you give others. Go take a look at what I said. In context, no less.
Your game is getting old, and I got your number, I can play this all day long.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Just
Mary...
you've been off the mark several times...
if we only had the faith you do,we would have NO lasting affects from sexual abuse,
you were so condescending to our beloved Cakes... like your opinion over ruled everyone.
you spoke down to my daughter as if she were a 12 year old uneducated light weight....
you assumed your opinion was absolutely right.
(you had no way of knowing she has studied extensively at Christian Colleges and seminary )
but you did know she was my daughter.....
Not surprised you are telling us how wrong we are about Jon.
He gave us plenty of reason on day one to question his motives.
You certainly have a right to your opinion but that is all it is.
Just for the record...here is Mr. Estes' first comment made on this blog. It is located in the last thread:
Jon Estes: I'm reminded of David going into the camp and taking Saul's sword. When he left the camp his men asked why he did not kill Saul. David could not because it would be wrong to do anything to God's anointed, even when they have gone mad.
I recommend a reading of "A Tale of Three Kings" by Gene Edwards. Every church member, in any church, could benefit from the insight Edwards demonstrates. It is a lesson on brokenness."
There are some who are a bit suspicious of Jon because Gaines used this book in a staff retreat to beat the staff into submitting to the anointed king: Himself.
There are others who are concerned because Gene Edwards' teachings are not always sound. And, he has some 'king' challenges himself.
Then there are those who know this teaching does NOT parallel the situation and wonder why Jon did not see that right away.
So for what it is worth...we are all still trying to figure out Jon and his reason for being here from his own words... which seem to vacillate between making vague or general comments then claiming we misunderstood him when we seek to clarify by being specific.
Ezekial wrote and it is worth reading again:
The God that one finds in the word is not the one some pastors have been telling us about.
He is love, mercy and grace. But not exactly man's idea of any of those. Mercy because He gives us so many chances and doesn't burn us up right now. Love because he loves us enough that he showers us with his grace..........and that grace includes not only blessings, peace and such but also affliction. The kind that Paul talks about.
Assessment of the BBC Leaders:
Steve Gaines: Pastor- Let the past be the past…with no consequences. If you don’t like it, leave. He met with Dr. Rogers on one occasion after becoming pastor of Bellevue. Don’t question your leadership or your pastor. Harbored a pedophile – claims he didn’t have any procedures on how to handle the situation. The Bible is just a set of guidelines, according to him. Gave $25K to FUMC – which by the way supports abortion, supports homosexuality, and has a female pastor. He told a former Chairman of the Deacons that he “had used the church credit card for personal expense…but I paid it back.” Then, at the September informational meeting, he held up his church credit card and said he had “never used a church credit card for personal expense.” He admitted to a deacon officer that there indeed was a plan to adjourn the Business Meeting after approximately 45 minutes. Integrity gone.
Mark Dougharty: former Associate Pastor- Gone. His Integrity left several years before he did.
Phil Weatherwax: Minister, Community Missions- Sent scathing emails to Josh Manning. Nasty, ugly, harsh comments that are very unbecoming of a Minister. I’m not exactly sure how Phil honored Christ or showed the love when he inked the very ugly – and non-repentant – emails. Integrity gone.
Steve Marcum: Minister, Missions- My understanding is that he and Phil Weatherwax personally delivered the $25K check to First United Methodist Church (FUMC). This is the organization which condones abortion, condones homosexuality, and has a woman pastor. Integrity gone.
Jim Barnwell: Director, Communications- Hmmm….where do we begin? Jim was one of the key members of the infamous “Communication Committee.” His avoidance at actually answering questions at the Communication Committee (CC) meetings, and his penmanship in authoring some of the written answers in the CC publications were lackluster at best. Integrity gone.
Phil Newberry: Minister, Students- Has said some very ugly comments regarding our former first lady of BBC – none that I will repeat on the blog, but he knows he said some ugly things. Gave mis-information to youth about JW’s “retirement.” He has stood before the youth and said that “everything is fine” and “there are no problems at Bellevue.” Integrity gone.
Greg Hauss: Minister, Senior High- When he was questioned about the March Business Meeting and whether he knew there was a plan to adjourn after approximately 45 minutes – he first said no. When challenged, amazingly he admitted that he did know about the plan. Integrity gone.
Deborah Houseal: Director, Children’s Programming- During the recent VBS at Bellevue, she was questioned as to why the puppet show being shown to the children had the host name of “Stupid Idiot.” There was a sign posted which read “Stu P. Ediot.” The sign was posted for the first 3 days, and then it was removed because several parents had complained. Now…why did the Children’s Ministry feel compelled to use Stupid Idiot (“Stu”) in a church skit? I fail to see the humor. Why have so many Sunday school teachers resigned? Integrity gone.
Carter Threlkeld: Minister, Instrumental Music- The orchestra sure looks like it is shrinking. Many of the musicians who have been around for many years are no longer playing in the orchestra – at Bellevue. Could it be that many of the orchestra members are tired of the pettiness and attitude that is coming from the top down? Could it be that there is no longer an attitude of humility or grace or a simple genuine thank you? There is a long list of orchestra members who have felt the need to remove themselves from playing at BBC due to the arrogance that doesn’t stop from the pulpit but also spews from the baton. Show some concern. Show some leadership. Integrity – compromised and questionable.
Scotty Shows: Minister, Recreation- He ensured that the B-string ECS basketball team got to use the gym for basketball practice instead of the “home schoolers who took the cheap way out.” Now that statement shows real compassion for our members. At least he has stated that he did not agree with how the Pastor handled the Paul Williams situation initially, and he believes the termination of PW should have occurred immediately. He also did not agree with Steve Gaines and the Finance Committee giving a $25K financial contribution to an organization which condones the murdering of innocent babies and the homosexual lifestyle. Integrity – disappointing at the least.
Carolyn Higginbotham: Director, Prayer Ministry- She recently stated that she finally discovered that Bellevue was a singing church after all of these many years. This revelation came to her during a church service a few months ago, per Higgy. Her new quest is to help Bellevue become a praying church. Well…I sure thought we had been a singing and praying and Christ-centered church for a long time. I am not sure where she is coming from with her statements. She is also the mastermind of the PIT crew – an attempt to gain members for the declining SFC (Steve Fan Club). Also, our deacon brothers must be feeling rather…let’s say awkward…that none of them were capable of leading our 180 +/- deacons in prayer and that none of them were capable of leading our church. Are you men? As long as the “Deacon Club Card” is still active, I guess most will just “swallow and follow.” I still don’t know the difference between “Minister, Prayer Ministry” or “Director, Prayer Ministry.” Higgy’s predecessor was a Minister, but she is a Director. But, I digress…after all, as our Pastor has stated, we are not to question him or our leadership. (I am tapping on my imaginary microphone…) Integrity gone.
Chip Freeman: Church Administrator- “Everything is jusssssst fine.” I can add no more to that ridiculous statement that he used back in September at the informational meeting. What else can one say? Integrity gone.
Jamie Fish: Minister, Biblical Guidance
Webb Williams: Minister, Member Development
Guys- I love you, but you totally missed the boat in the mishandling of the Paul Williams situation. Integrity gone.
So, these are our paid staff leaders? None of us are perfect. I am certainly anything but perfect. However, these are the leaders in charge of leading Bellevue. Their salaries and benefits are paid by our tithes, and they are expected to be good stewards with money, our time, and our resources. My family and I can no longer listen to Steve Gaines any more. However, as a dear friend of mine says often, if Steve Gaines left Bellevue today, the problems would still be here tomorrow.” Sadly, I agree with that statement.
The sheep are scattered. The sheep are hurting. The BBC leaders don’t care. Period. They do not care. One of the deacons, a Sunday school teacher in fact, has stated the following: “Steve Gaines is the right Pastor for Bellevue. Bellevue just has the wrong congregation.” Personally, I think that has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. However, that is the attitude that many of the “leaders” have today.
Most current staff members, lay leaders, and Sunday school teachers are not contacting members who have been absent from Sunday school for a few Sundays…or a few weeks…or a few months. I have talked with many families who have said the same thing. The common quotes are: “My teacher has not even bothered to call me to check if things are ok with my family” or “My teacher has not called to see if anybody is sick.” THE LEADERS DON’T CARE.
No compassion. Lots of arrogance. Very self-centered and self-serving. Other popular quotes are: “Nothing is wrong” and “Everything is just fine” and “It’s just a couple of people who are unhappy because they don’t like change.” No ministering. No consequences for one’s actions. No integrity. May God please guide Bellevue.
Sometimes there is just nothing left to say...
Thanks gmommy.
Ima
Well I for one can vouch for Ez...I've had many conversations with him over the Word. I've had the pleasure of seeing him grow in leaps and bounds in the short time I've known him as he's devoured the Word of God. Don't mistake his zeal for emotionalism..it's anything but that.
Mark Dougharty update..
His home went up for sale 8 days ago for $500,000.
Has anyone heard any more about the rumor he might be going to Dr. Charles Stanley's church in Atlanta? Sure hope NOT!
I AMEN concerned for BBC....some more "emotional" Zeal!!!!!!!
concerned for bbc
Your post made me very sad.
We have never gotten a call from our SS teacher since we left at the end of March. But then, he knows that he lied to us and we know it.
One dear lady in our class called and was shocked to learn that we had never been contacted. It does really hurt to think about that.
How can one man, that none of us really knew, come in and destroy so many relationships? Compromise the integrity of so many? And for what? Were we not already doing the Lord's work?
I certainly thought we were....
Concerned for bbc said: "The sheep are scattered. The sheep are hurting. The BBC leaders don’t care. Period. They do not care. One of the deacons, a Sunday school teacher in fact, has stated the following: “Steve Gaines is the right Pastor for Bellevue. Bellevue just has the wrong congregation.” Personally, I think that has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. However, that is the attitude that many of the “leaders” have today."
I agree with you; that has to be one of the dumbest statements I've ever seen.
Your post was very enlightening. We've all thought about those leaders but to see it listed was very telling.
Thank you for posting.
:)
Fear?
To the Church in Laodicea
14"And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
15"'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"
Thanks AOG!
I concur Mary...a more substantive discourse can be built by reducing the invective and reactionary.
For many here, the Pastor and leadership have crossed the threshhold of ever redeeming integrity and accountability at BBC. This is not a mere foible that can be glossed over--it is a group of ministers sheilding the indentity of a pedophile in their midst for as much as 6 months, and then, when they got caught, compounding insult to injury saving their own hides--the PCIR, followed by the "congregationally approved" Coombs ordination, and that express business meeting.
That kind of claptrap tends to tick people off.
Also, we have regulars here who tell us it is a sin to be a regular here--they never seem to grasp the irony, even after they're banned. That steady line of attack tends to make everyone a little shell-shocked, hunkering down for the next volley of pontificating from loyalists and don't-rock-the-boat-ers.
Those of us that are survivors of abuse cannot fathom what there is to parse regarding Gaines' credibility as a minister, or as a thoughtful human being even--it is bankrupt, period.
But let's not get so prickly that we become defensive too quickly.
Hey, I'm a poet and didn't know-it.
Concerned for BBC,
Great Post!
Always worth reminding all of us about the corruption now spewing within Bellevue Baptist Church.
Our church has been hyjacked and is on a self-destruct path.
There are portraits of 3 of our great pastors of Bellevue hanging in the West foyer. These 3 men loved the Lord, loved the church family and stood for truth and integrity. We were very blessed to have been able to call them "pastor".
They may very well be the last "great pastors" of Bellevue Baptist Church.
IDC made the Wikipedia entry on Dr. Gaines... Quite a bit to read here...
Something tells me spin and double-speak, and rewriting attempts ahead... might want to copy and paste and compare in the near future... jmo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Gaines_(pastor)
Piglet said: "How can one man, that none of us really knew, come in and destroy so many relationships? Compromise the integrity of so many? And for what?
This is the question for the ages. I'm so sorry for all the hurt that has been endured. However, take comfort in Romans 8:28: "And we know that all things work together for good to them who love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose."
I know you love God and I know later you will all be comforted.
Those 3 great pastors whose portraits are hanging in the West foyer, for those that don't know.
Dr. Robert Lee
Dr. Ramsey Pollard
Dr. Adrian Rogers
All of them are kicking up "gold dust" tonite!!
25+: Thanks for the info. I have copied/pasted to a word document...this might prove interesting.............
BTW: You've got mail.
:)
I hope all of you will have a safe and enjoyable fourth today!
Why don't you all join with friends and family in celebrating our freedom and put BBC out of your mind for at least 24 hours! And enjoy!
Ima
Estes wrote:
"And if a new pastor becomes unpopular, sharpen the ax, it's head hunting time."
"My statement using the term ax was hyperbole. I truly thought it would be noticed. I guess not."
The thing that stuck out at me about this exchange is that perhaps what is happening here is something you have experienced as a new pastor. Because we are NOT talking about an 'unpopular' pastor. This not about the color of the carpet or if he wears a tie or not.
This is about the willful ignoring of scripture by a pastor in a very serious situation that involved a heinous crime by a staff minister....and much more...
That, my friend, is a false teacher...a wolf.
Ima, good idea.
We also need to remember our past and present men and women in the armed forces who are fighting still today for our freedoms.
May God bless you all and God bless our country.
Nite all
del,
Check your mail.
Gmommy,
I see you keep score. Please forgive me, but I don’t. And please forgive me for missing any “mark” you may have set, but keep your scorecard handy because I’ll most likely miss a lot more as we go forward.
I would like to clarify a point or two that you mentioned.
I never said or implied that if anyone had MY faith they could be free from any lasting pain of sexual abuse. I said that complete freedom IS available IN Jesus Christ – for if the Son shall set you free, ye shall be free indeed. I have lived the fulfillment of that promise everyday for well over 30 years and I know it to be true.
Yes, regrettably, I was condescending to Cakes. Being new to his posts, I did misread him entirely and I am indeed sorry for that. I repented and I asked him for his forgiveness in a subsequent post.
I did not tell anyone they were wrong about Jon Estes. Gmommy, re-read my post of 9:18 PM, July 03, 2007. I was trying to remind a few folks that there is much we do not know about why Brother Jon is here, and I was asking folks to give him the benefit of doubt and treat him as a brother in Christ. Have we no grace for others who may not see exactly as we do?
I know you are proud of your daughter, as well you should be. In my opinion, she jumped in and threw a few punches that were not necessary; however, I do admire her enthusiasm for the Lord’s work. She has been on my daily prayer list ever since that post – by screen name only because that is the only name I know, but God knows who she is and I pray daily that the Lord will sustain and guide her as she continues her walk with Him.
And please don’t play the old education game with me. I’m not impressed. I have completed years of post graduate work and I can legally use 3 initials behind my name and a title in front. It sounds quite high-fallutin’. But that doesn’t impress me either.
Gmommy, can we call a truce? We are sisters in Christ, and while you may not like me, I have to love you. And I do love you! And I pray God’s peace and blessings for you and yours.
I apologize for any typos, etc, as it’s 3 AM. We’re up smoking a pig for the family get-together tomorrow – uh, today. Hope everyone enjoys the holiday!
OC says:
By the way estes, I understand hyperbole, etc. Thank you for your condescension. I am also adept at noticing arrogance hypocritically shielded by the word 'grace'. And I have no problem reading. My education probably rivals yours, including theologically. Get off your high horse.
oc.
9:34 PM, July 03, 2007
No condescension from me and I am not riding a high horse.. I am simply trying to calmly make comment in a straight forward but nonthreatening or attacking manner.
It is my training and nature to ask questions, this is what I do with scripture do as I prepare my sermons. I asked a question to you for one simple reason, to make sure I do not misunderstand you. Nothing more, nothing less.
My ax statement, which many have seen as towards them, was not. It was in response to Mary's post about the governance of the church and where she could not find a precedent in scripture for congregational rule. It was not directed towards anyone n this blog or to any church specifically.
At worst it could be considered thread drift.
Please show me why I need to apologize to SOTL and if I concur I will do so immediately. I have no problem saying I am wrong when I am.
Lin said...
Estes wrote:
"And if a new pastor becomes unpopular, sharpen the ax, it's head hunting time."
"My statement using the term ax was hyperbole. I truly thought it would be noticed. I guess not."
The thing that stuck out at me about this exchange is that perhaps what is happening here is something you have experienced as a new pastor. Because we are NOT talking about an 'unpopular' pastor. This not about the color of the carpet or if he wears a tie or not.
This is about the willful ignoring of scripture by a pastor in a very serious situation that involved a heinous crime by a staff minister....and much more...
That, my friend, is a false teacher...a wolf.
12:28 AM, July 04, 2007
I know what this blog is about and the main theme has grown many side branches of discussion, not a bad thing.
My comments, in that whole post were dealing with the church in general in relation to what the Bible teaches or not about congregational rule, not any specific church. It was not directed to BBC or any person on this forum.
Forgive me if this post is out of sequence. I see that the thread has moved on.
I believe a pastor should be a man who has truly died to self. He should have God's will as the prime concern for every decision he makes and every word he speaks. If a pastor is in the will of our perfect God, he will be leading the church in the Truth.
estes said:
No condescension from me and I am not riding a high horse.. I am simply trying to calmly make comment in a straight forward but nonthreatening or attacking manner.
oc says:
Denial does not make it so. Let me put it this way, you come across very snotty. How's that for simple and straight forward?
estes said:
It is my training and nature to ask questions, this is what I do with scripture do as I prepare my sermons. I asked a question to you for one simple reason, to make sure I do not misunderstand you. Nothing more, nothing less.
oc says:
Guess what? Not impressed with your training or the fact that you prepare sermons. Done that a time or two myself. So what? Self serving comments add to dissention, not understanding. One would think that your training would have given you that information. Guess it didn't.
estes said:
My ax statement, which many have seen as towards them, was not. It was in response to Mary's post about the governance of the church and where she could not find a precedent in scripture for congregational rule. It was not directed towards anyone n this blog or to any church specifically.
At worst it could be considered thread drift.
oc says:
OK. That is understandable. But with all your training, shouldn't we expect better communication?
estes said:
Please show me why I need to apologize to SOTL and if I concur I will do so immediately. I have no problem saying I am wrong when I am.
oc says:
OK, You're wrong. Uh, you said that SOTL posts nonsense. That is insulting and wrong. But I am not holding my breath waiting for you to 'concur'.
Just sayin'.
oc.
OC,
Nonsense is an utterance or written text that does not in fact carry any identifiable meaning.
* From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What SOTL stated had no identifiable meaning to anything I have posted.
Here is whatshe said:
sickofthelies said...
Jon,
[1] If you are so shallow minded that it suits you just fine to [2] follow a man blindly that has intentionally put women and children in harm's way with a SEXUAL PREDATOR then you should move your membership here and sit on the front row.
{3} Do you even GET what a sexual predator is? [4] Or are you like the lost that are still at BBC that think it's no big deal?
[5] You can lead the standing O's for all the lost people who think SG is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
After all, " a little molestation never hurt anybody" right?
6:09 PM, July 03, 2007
Look at what I was accused of or suggested / inferred to support:
[1] I am called shallow minded
[2] I am following am man blindly
[3] I am questioned to what I think a sexual predator is
[4] I am like the "lost" who support the direction at BBC.
{5} I can be head cheerleader for SG.
I have no where supported SG keeping PW on staff. I have stated it was wrong. I don't know SG personally, only from a distance and have no idea as to how I could be following him, blindly at that. Again, I have spoken against sexual abuse. I have nowhere supported the direction of BBC. and I have no intention to become anyones cheerleader.
And I owe someone an apology. Your argument does not fly. I don't even think SOTL's owes me an apology as it is obvious they are speaking of things they don't know concerning me (and I am easier to find out about than most on this blog).
If you think any of the accusations are true, please show me where and I will clarify or apologize if I shown otherwise.
jon estes,
Well, you can get 'technical' all you want. What you just did proved you don't have a pastor's heart. You may make a good CEO somewhere.
That's all from me.
Just sayin,
oc.
OC,
It's not technical that I got it was truth which I posted.
To be blunt, if you want me to apologize for something I have not done I will not. If that is being less than pastoral than you do not know what a pastor ought to be. No pastor is to be a whipping post for false accusations.
Stick to the truth and do it with grace.
Is there a reason you want to bring up what I should do (apologize) then back off the topic, say I don't have a pastor's heart... when it is shown you were in error?
No need to apologize, you are forgiven, regardless.
Good job jon estes,
You are further proving my point.
Thank you for making it so easy.
oc.
"oc" and Jon,
Drop it, okay? Enough! You sound like a couple of little boys on the playground!
New,
Thank you for the intervention.
jle
Out to have a evening with some church members.
Have a great 4th everyone.
Jon estes said,
I have no where supported SG keeping PW on staff. I have stated it was wrong. I don't know SG personally, only from a distance and have no idea as to how I could be following him, blindly at that. Again, I have spoken against sexual abuse. I have nowhere supported the direction of BBC.
Jon,
Thanks Jon for that statement but, would you not agree as a minister that the very act of a minister harboring a child molester is cause for his dismissal.Peroid, case closed.I don't see it any other way.
Do you believe that SG should leave BBC over this?
I would appreciate the views on this issue from another minster.
Let's recap
Estes: I don't mind answering your question but you have not answered mine. This is an open forum you don't have to respond but not answering questions of others then expecting me to answer yours is a bit hypocritical.
I'll wait for your response to my question, since I did ask 1st."
Reply: I have followed the thread closely. Ezekial thought he DID answer the question. Fellow bloggers...has Ezekial EVER refused to answer anyone's questions here? Usually he answers with scripture. Because that is the kind of guy he is. He searches scripture for truth.
But obviously it was not to the pastors liking. I find it hard to believe this is what we can expect from pastors. Not only this but the 'slickness' we see in circular arguements and claiming we have 'misunderstood him'.
I use this ONE example here but there are many others of this type of 'authority' mindset. Or, the childish, 'You answer my question first' type of response.
Again, I go back to the pastor's first comment here about the Three Kings by Gene Edwards. If you think about it, this FIRST comment tells us most of what we need to know about how this pastor thinks and the FEW he believes are anointed kings in Christendom:
Jon Estes: I'm reminded of David going into the camp and taking Saul's sword. When he left the camp his men asked why he did not kill Saul. David could not because it would be wrong to do anything to God's anointed, even when they have gone mad.
I recommend a reading of "A Tale of Three Kings" by Gene Edwards. Every church member, in any church, could benefit from the insight Edwards demonstrates. It is a lesson on brokenness."
So, you thought the pedophile was God' anointed minister? And Gaines is the anointed king even though he ignored scipture in dealing with the pedophile?
Thanks for trying to help here, Mr. Estes. But I prefer my pastors Biblically sound and humble.
The ONE thing you have missed on this blog is that there are victims of the same abuse the 'minister of prayer' committed. And once again, we see that those who expect scripture to be followed are accused of lacking Grace.
Don't bother responding that this is NOT what you meant by this first comment...we have already been through that ad nauseum...and you just change tactics. We have heard that broken record too many times from you.
You really do believe that some are 'anointed' above others in Christendom or you would NOT have posted that comment. That is enough for me to know.
Tiredofitall,
I will not speak specifically against SG since he is not here posting to ask or comment too, but will say, I believe that there is no circumstance I can think of where a minister should allow a staff member to remain on staff if he confesses to such a crime. That the police should be called immediately and the justice system should run its course.
I do not know the circumstance to which led SG to make the decision he did but I have spoken as to what I would have done.
I am not trying to skirt the issue but speak to what I specifically know, not to what I don't.
Being anointed is not the same as being above.
Through scripture we learn David refused to set himself against Saul for one reason. Saul was anointed of God. It was not because he was king or above him it was because he knew Saul was anointed.
Saul had gone mad and became evil but he was anointed by God. God did not remove that anointing.
My position has not changed on the subject and it matters little what Gene Edwards wrote, though I believe he wrote in balance with scripture.
I have no idea what Ezekiel thought, I did not see an answer. If I missed it I would appreciate you showing me, if you have time.
I'm not your enemy and what you see is what you get. Read my blogs and my wifes you will discover our heart and motives.
jle
Lin,
You are correct. I thought I answered Jon's question regarding scriptural authority for congregational approval, he calls it rule.
I think the answer can be found...the authority if you will, for congregational aproval in the context of both of Paul's letters to the church at Corinth.
Maybe I have missed it, but the letters appear to have been addressed to the church. Not just the pastor of that church. His letters are clearly a rebuke for immoral sexual sin that was taking place as well as other problems. He is rebuking all the members, and holding them to account for not acting to move the church into righteousness, holyness. He is holding all the members accountable. Of particular note, no where does Paul appear to direct his rebuke to a pastor. If there was one, don't you think that the letters would have been addressed to him?
Then you look at the gifts that Paul discusses and it is clear that he believes there are many gifts and each member should exercise his gift. No where does he say that the foot is more important than the hand. Quite to the contrary, he states the opposit. It is odd that he left off the head.......
Because we all know there is only one.
If you look back, I presented an argument against the Saul anointing in the three kings book Jon was selling. I gave the scripture where Saul had in fact, lost his anointing. That was ignored. Because you can imagine the problem that presents to modern day "rulers".....One can loose one's anointing. Saul is proof that God can infact revoke it.......
Jon did it again with the above discussion about Hebrews 13:7,17. I answered his question, told him that I got hung up at 13:7 becasue when I read the scripture, I am told to practice discerment, and test to see if I am getting the WORD preached to me and if the pastor is living that word....I said no, I don't think I am. Then asked Jon if I was still supposed to follow. Jon then launched into his interpretation which essentially said what I did.....See the exchanges at 4:56 and 5:03
I agree with you. He is certainly willing to pose questions to direct the conversation where he apparently wants it to go. When he doesn't like the answer, he denies the answer has been made, and launches into a pious, self pity, type of why are you picking on me circular argument. Casting bait for conflict or rebukes from fellow bloggers while maintaining a holier than thou attitude. The whole Sotl, OC, Jon conversation is the latest example.
Meanwhile if one looks back, any substantive discussion usually turns to someone "picking" on Jon...
Rather than discussing the current problems and scriptural solutions.....the focus has to be Jon.....now who gets the glory for that......
1 Samuel 16
David Anointed King
1The LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you grieve over Saul, since I have rejected him from being king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil, and go. I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite, for I have provided for myself a king among his sons."
"being anointed is not the same as being above.
Through scripture we learn David refused to set himself against Saul for one reason. Saul was anointed of God. It was not because he was king or above him it was because he knew Saul was anointed.
Saul had gone mad and became evil but he was anointed by God. God did not remove that anointing."
That doesn't sound too anointed to me.
Infact, God gave David plenty of opportunities to kill Saul. When he would not do it God used another to get er done....
If you want to continue to use this example, it fits better if you use it in the context of one leader replacing another......not trying to establish authority for an illagitamate rule....
All true believers who follow Christ and His Word are anointed.
1 John 2
Ezekial wrote: If you look back, I presented an argument against the Saul anointing in the three kings book Jon was selling. I gave the scripture where Saul had in fact, lost his anointing. That was ignored. Because you can imagine the problem that presents to modern day "rulers".....One can loose one's anointing. Saul is proof that God can infact revoke it......."
I remember that and yes, it was ignored.
How soon we forget that God gave them a King because they begged for one! I have never thought the story of Saul was a parallel. If anything, it is the opposite and one cannot make the case for 'touch not the anointed'.
If pastor Estes believes that, then according to 1 John, all true believers should not be rebuked. But that is NOT what scripture teaches.
The whole conversation about church structure will never be solved until Jesus comes back. There are no specific step by step instructions EXCEPT that Christ is the HEAD. Yes, we have elders but the NT elder is so far from what we see today that few could recognize a real NT elder! It may be that man driving a broken down car with holes in his clothes but calloused knees.
I have gone back (a while ago) and compiled who each Epistle was addressed to. This is just to reinforce what you wrote about Corinthians. It is obvious the teaching in each Epistle is for the Body. The entire Body.
Phil:
1Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons..
Col: 2To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae...
1 Cor: 2To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours...
2 Cor
To the church of God that is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia...
1 Thess 1
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ...
2 Thess 1
To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ...
Galatians 1
1Paul, an apostle--not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead-- 2and all the brothers who are with me,
To the churches of Galatia..
Romans1
7To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints..
I know thread is caput, but I don't wish to carry the subject over.
If Mr. Estes' intention here has been to capture this thread and become the subject of it, then he has succeeded. Why has he been the focus for going on two days?
Frankly, I guess I don't understand the theology being bandied here, the three kings thing that's so offends. Perhaps I'm missing something.
(Mr. Estes, would you please kindly take a break, since emotions are inflamed and no resolution will come of futher interchange at this juncture.)
Here's the thing, if someone comments here, ignorant of the mitigating contexts or just wrong or stupid in their conclusions, let the comment lye where it may, undisturbed. Sort of like how y'all get sort of quiet when Eastern thought comes out in my comments.
I know it is because of your compassion that you hold your tongue, or give me a friendly razzing--and I feel likewise warm toward you'all.
Speaking of which, here's something else in that regard (and no, I am not now, nor have I ever been associated with Warrenism):
Buddha was sitting under a tree talking to his disciples. A man came and spit on his face. He wiped it off, and he asked the man, “What next? What do you want to say next?” The man was a little puzzled because he himself never expected that when you spit on somebody’s face, he will ask, “What next?” He had no such experience in his past. He had insulted people and they had become angry and they had reacted. Or if they were cowards and weaklings, they had smiled, trying to bribe the man. But Buddha was like neither, he was not angry nor in any way offended, nor in any way cowardly. But just matter-of-factly he said, “What next?” There was no reaction on his part.
Buddha’s disciples became angry, they reacted. His closest disciple, Ananda, said, “This is too much, and we cannot tolerate it. He has to be punished for it. Otherwise everybody will start doing things like this.”
Buddha said, “You keep silent. He has not offended me, but you are offending me. He is new, a stranger. He must have heard from people something about me, that ‘this man is an atheist, a dangerous man who is throwing people off their track, a revolutionary, a corrupter.’ And he may have formed some idea, a notion of me. He has not spit on me, he has spit on his notion, he has spit on his idea of me – because he does not know me at all, so how can he spit on me?
“If you think on it deeply,” Buddha said, “he has spit on his own mind. I am not part of it, and I can see that this poor man must have something else to say because this is a way of saying something – spitting is a way of saying something. There are moments when you feel that language is impotent – in deep love, in intense anger, in hate, in prayer. There are intense moments when language is impotent. Then you have to do something. When you are angry, intensely angry, you hit the person, you spit on him, you are saying something. I can understand him. He must have something more to say, that’s why I’m asking, ‘What next?’”
The man was even more puzzled! And Buddha said to his disciples, “I am more offended by you because you know me, and you have lived for years with me, and still you react.”
Puzzled, confused, the man returned home. He could not sleep the whole night. When you see a Buddha, it is difficult, impossible; to sleep again the way you used to sleep before. Again and again he was haunted by the experience. He could not explain it to himself, what had happened. He was trembling all over and perspiring. He had never come across such a man; ha shattered his whole mind and his whole pattern, his whole past.
The next morning he was back there. He threw himself at Buddha’s feet. Buddha asked him again, “What next? This, too, is a way of saying something that cannot be said in language. When you come and touch my feet, you are saying something that cannot be said ordinarily, for which all words are a little narrow; it cannot be contained in them.” Buddha said, “Look, Ananda, this man is again here, he is saying something. This man is a man of deep emotions.”
The man looked at Buddha and said, “Forgive me for what I did yesterday.”
Buddha said, “Forgive? But I am not the same man to whom you did it. The Ganges goes on flowing, it is never the same Ganges again. Every man is a river. The man you spit upon is no longer here – I look just like him, but I am not the same, much has happened in these twenty-four hours! The river has flowed so much. So I cannot forgive you because I have no grudge against you.
“And you also are new. I can see you are not the same man who came yesterday because that man was angry – he was anger! He spit, whereas you are bowing at my feet, touching my feet – how can you be the same man? You are not the same man, so let us forget about it. Those two people – the man who spit, and the man on whom he spit – both are no more. Come closer. Let us talk of something else.”
Cakes,
Your post on 7/4 2:11 pm is very powerful, thought and heart provoking.
Thank you for the reminder of who we should be.
THERE'S A NEW THREAD IF EVERYONE WOULD LIKE TO MOVE UP!
Thank you,
NBBCOF
sheepless,
"Thank you for the reminder of who we should be.
I thought we were to imitate Christ because we are sons....
Gal 4:6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Eph 5:1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
I think we shoud imitate Christ....not Buddha.....
Cakes,
As to the theology being bandied...
Kings..and Saul's anointing have been used for years by baptist preachers seeking to dominate or rule over their congregation....They use Saul's anointing as justification for their authority. They claim that even when Saul had turned and beocome self serving that he was still God's anointed. All to have the congregation believe that they should follow the pastor regardless of what he teaches or where he leads them. Scripture does not support that. See 1 Sam 16.
Furthermore... in a more recent NT scripture, we see the Judaizers trying to bring the Gentiles under subjection to the law, circumcision. Todays examples are authoritarian rule in the church by modern day rulers...
Gal 4:17They make much of you, but for no good purpose. They want to shut you out, that you may make much of them.
Now who is Paul talking about?
Gal 1:6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
And these guys...
Gal 2:44Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in--who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery--
Now what was Paul's response to these rulers....pharisses, these teachers of a false doctrine...
5to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.
So then, a lot of the argument you have seen is at the very heart of the conflict you see at BBC and other churches today. It could not be more important that everyone understand this conflict.
We have people that have slipped in and preach a gospel of subjection and slavery, tithe and bow before the pastor...
Rather than the Gospel of Jesus and the freedom from sin that He and He alone can provide.
Are you slaves....or free today?
Slaves of sin or free?
Slaves to earthly "rulers" or free today?
1 Sam 18:12Saul was afraid of David because the LORD was with him but had departed from Saul. 13So Saul removed him from his presence and made him a commander of a thousand. And he went out and came in before the people. 14And David had success in all his undertakings, for the LORD was with him. 15And when Saul saw that he had great success, he stood in fearful awe of him. 16But all Israel and Judah loved David, for he went out and came in before them.
Some pastors....the ones that have slipped in, that teach a false gospel have the same fear that Saul had...They fear the actual anointed...and they try to kick them out from among them....
The congregation should be able to see this....the first time they have to dodge a spear.....
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