During a recent meeting of a concerned group of BBC members with David Coombs and three other staff members, one of the things the members stressed was that Steve Gaines does not seem to demonstrate that he has a shepherd's heart nor does he seem to demonstrate love to the members in general.David Coombs asked what the pastor could do to demonstrate love. The members' answer was that there is no magic formula, that love demonstrates itself from a heart filled with the love of God.
So let's help Steve Gaines and David Coombs. What are we looking for in a pastor?
Thanks to "aslansown" for this topic idea.
733 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 733 Newer› Newest»From my earlier post:
"If you are not perfect in anger, please remember that blanket condemnation of any group is unwise... especially blanket condemnation of all of Christ's undershepherds."
Explanation:
[Any group within the conversation here, was my meaning, eg. all of the members who remain at Bellevue, all who have left, all of the choir members who remain, all who have left, deacons, pastors, all... these etc.]
Concerned...and Others:
I need to make a correction to my 11:00 am post. It was not John MacArthur that I talked to who told me he felt many are not called. It was another. That sentence should have been inserted after this one: "Why these pastors are more concerned with how wealthy they can become than they are about how they can convey the richness in knowing Christ." Sorry if that caused any confusion.
I would agree it is dangerous and sinful to make blanket statements about any group or paint in too broad of strokes. No matter which side of the fence you stand on, bitterness takes root very easily, and a kind of cynicism which can color everything that we look at.
We cannot deny what is happening in the church in both pulpit and pew...one doesn't have to look very hard or very far to see that. That doesn't mean that every pastor or every church member has gone the way of Balaam. I thank God for the pastors who are laboring in the gospel. Most of them no one would no except those who are under their ministries...not because there are so few of them necessarily, but because they have no "name" in the religious world. Many of them labor in obscurity compared to the big names many are familiar with. They have no name for themselves because that is not their goal...they're not writing best sellers, or being asked to speak at big religious events...they simply feed God's flock on the gospel week in and week out, seeking nothing but to please their Master and care for His sheep, and reach the sheep not yet in the fold. God never has been, nor will He ever be without a remnant...He himself will preserve it...not by our faithfulness, but His.
We should give honor to whom honor is due, but I believe the people of God have sat silent too long concerning what does come out of a great many pulpits in our day. We ARE responsible for what we allow ourselves to hear..the Bible is quite clear about that. The Bereans went home and searched the Scriptures to see if what Paul taught was truth...we have that same responsibility...and to expose that which is not true. While we should certainly be sure, while trying to pull the cart back into the road, not to pull too far in the other direction and thus end up in the ditch on the other side, we should just as surely be willing to declare that the cart is indeed in the ditch and take appropriate action. If we care at all for the souls of men and women, and the honor and glory of God, we must.
Brother AllofGrace,
Amen.... and it will take another Great Awakening to multiply the Bereans of today.
25+,
Amen, and may God be pleased to grant it.
25+ and AOG.....
You guys/gals are deep! There is still a remnant. Hallelujah!
Lindon...
Beats me...I am not going to follow a false teacher. :)
Interesting question for discussion I suppose. Why do people follow false teachers?
Anybody?
Hey, blogsters! I've missed y'all. Our boys have had friends over and all I've done is:
1. Feed kids
2. Clean up
3. Feed them again
4. Clean up again.
5. Feed them more.
Well, you get it. :)
Now I need to go to the store for more food...
Ima: There are some scoundrels in the pews, and because they are, we hear about them. 25+: You are so right that there are many more who are called men of God, desiring to serve Him and their flock. A database would be helpful for churches searching for a new pastor.........a database containing information on each pastor's history. If they have been investigated, or were fired from a church, or involved in an audit like Claude Thomas....that information could be made available. That would keep pastors with questionable practices from being foisted on an unsuspecting congregation and would allow stronger (lessor known) pastors to be considered.
The church can't be run as a business because many of God's principles are contrary to the business world. We (spoken as a generic term for "churches") need to return to study, prayer, and accountability. If a pastor is tempted to leave God's path, he needs to know the consequences for that could be a changed occupation.
Now, before someone jumps me with "What about forgiveness; what about grace?" I would say forgiveness and grace can still be granted without placing another church in harm's way for this wayward pastor.
ima,
Our Lord told us, "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me." Perhaps our pews have as many goats as sheep?...certainly a question that should be pondered. Also, He has told us that in the latter days men will not endure sound doctrine, but gather teachers to themselves who tell them what their itching ears want to hear. Frighteningly familiar I think. jmo
Piglet: Welcome to life with teenagers.
:)
Ima said, "Interesting question for discussion I suppose. Why do people follow false teachers?"
Ima, I have asked some form of this question several times. I just don't get it.
Do they not know enough of the Bible to know a false teacher when they see one?
Do they recognize a false teacher but don't want to leave their friends/home church/activities enough to make a stand?
Do they believe they are strong enough to not be swayed by the teachings of a false teacher?
Ima said
Biblical purging? No, this is not something that has been a part of our vocabulary. I am sorry to say that church discipline has become to the church what a pink slip is to big business. Matthew 18 is a thing of the past in these apostate churches with false teachers at the head; it is not implemented anymore except in a few churches whose pastors teach Truth and these are few. When the business leaders of these apostate churches want members gone now, they force them out. They don’t implement Matthew 18…they can’t; these people haven’t done anything wrong
Piglet said:
Oh, this is SOOO on target. This is exactly how it feels - like we are part of a corporate take over and we are not part of the new "vision". So we are expendable.
And the new vision is the Gaines empire, where he, the "annointed" (w/ echo sound effect) , is the final authority - the king, if you will. Jesus is a means to an end for him, a commodity, a product that can be sold and is quite profitable.
Oh, how the tables need to be turned, figuratively speaking.
When W.A. Criswell announced back during the "conservative resurgence" that the pastor is the "ruler" of the church, it was like saying "sic 'em" to a bulldog.
Piglet says:
Heard the name a lot but don't know much about Criswell. I do remember Gaines wrote his dissertation (?) on him, didn't he? This would explain some things...
25+ said
The blanket denunciations of ministers on this blog do nothing more than detract from any potential it might have to help BBC or any other church.
Such treatment of the office of pastor is unbiblical, unwarranted, unholy, and reveals a level of bitterness that just gives ammo to the trolls who frequent this site.
Piglet says:
This is why so many of us would like to see public rebuke of Gaines by his peers for his public sins.
The silence is deafening and it tends to indict those that may not even be guilty. I hope some of his friends have atleast gone to him privately.
It has broken my heart to sit and listen to visiting pastors praise Steve Gaines when they have spoken at BBC - of course I haven't had to endure that torture for several months now.
Piglet will continue talking to herself on the way to Kroger...
Piglet: Excellent point. Condoning wrongs makes one an accessory, right?
To expound on this question: “Why do people follow false teachers?”
My answer to this question coincides with AOG’s. He is on target in my opinion and biblical. AOG said, “He has told us that in the latter days men will not endure sound doctrine, but gather teachers to themselves who tell them what their itching ears want to hear.”
And I think, also, that our pews do have as many goats as sheep. In many cases, even more.
I would like to add that I have great respect and admiration for the true pastors out there today. Not only are they standing strong in the Word of God, but they are battling the forces so prevalent coming from within the apostate churches and other areas. They are withstanding extreme persecution for the stand they are taking for Jesus Christ. I have no greater respect for anybody than this. I love our Lord and I love those who are willing to stand strong for Him.
I think one of the scariest thoughts I have with this whole false prophet thing is this:
There are many God fearing folks in that church, are they that blind to the truth that they see nothing wrong? If so, then they have misled even myself into thinking they are indeed Godly people.
If the staff, who one would think is even more Godly than us can still be on payroll and think nothing is wrong, this situation is even more dire than we imagine.
I understand the "wolf in sheeps clothing" thing and that explanation would have worked for a little while, but by now, ignorance of some of the misdeeds can no longer be an excuse.
imaresistor, when you talk about saying what itching ears want to hear, you have arrived to the impetuous of this whole matter:
A false teacher will tell people what they want to hear which in turn will translate into cash money. A church that doesn't scare people with heaven or hell or satan will give more money. Happy people give more, its just how human nature operates. That is unless they start collecting tithe with a pistol in their hand.
Jon Estes wrote: "I missed the part where scripture teaches us that this is for pastors only. Where are the context cops when you need one?
Seriously, I think it would be best if all of us who make comment here live by the same creed.
7:34 AM, June 28, 2007
Mr Estes, I am astounded that you, a pastor who believes in ‘God’s anointed man’, believes the sheep should model these things for the Shepherd. Isn’t it the other way around?
Color me confused. :o)
"Context Cops"......I like that......it's a badge of honor!
:)
25 wrote: Amen.... and it will take another Great Awakening to multiply the Bereans of today."
Have you by any chance read the biography of Jonathon Edwards by Phillip Marsden? The narrative on the Greak Awakening was bone chilling.
"The silence is deafening and it tends to indict those that may not even be guilty."
During the downgrade controversy, Spurgeon stood alone. The stress literally ruined his health. Yet, he refused to go along and NOT speak out for Truth.
Where are the Spurgeons today?
Lindon: I have read Jonathon Edwards' biography, but not by that author. I will put it on my list to buy, but what point is made from it?
Lindon,
I think I can sum up the silence of pastors relating to the sin of another pastor in 3 words....
Good Ol' Boy Network!
Oh yeah...if one speaks out against another, that means less $$$ entering their pockets.
justin said,
"There are many God fearing folks in that church, are they that blind to the truth that they see nothing wrong? If so, then they have misled even myself into thinking they are indeed Godly people"
People believe what they want to believe. One person told me recently that we all have "degrees" of what we will tolerate. I believe that comes from our "degree" of dedication to Christ and our "degree" of belief in God's Word. If someone wants to believe that the scriptures are "guidelines" and not "commandments" on how we are to live, then I can see how they can be easily duped and that is how these "confidence games" are played out. Make no mistake, Steve Gaines is a con-man and he is playing one of the greatest "con-games" on an ignorant flock that has been played since Jim and Tammy Faye. The only difference is the eye makeup.
"If the staff, who one would think is even more Godly than us can still be on payroll and think nothing is wrong, this situation is even more dire than we imagine."
Justin, can you even imagine the fear of losing your home because you cannot pay the mortgage due to losing your job? You do not get unemployment if you work at a church. If you get any severence consider yourself lucky. What about health insurance for your family? You can't sue and maintain a Christian witness...even though it is not really a 'church' in the biblical sense.
Can you imagine the fear of knowing that if you do leave because you disagree, your name and reputation will be mud all over Christendom? Your chances of another job...nil?
I can imagine there are staffers there right now who rationalize being there. It is easy to do.
My heart goes out to those who feel they are stuck. But they would be better off losing their home.
"Context Cops"......
Good girls, good boys, whatcha gonna do,
Whatcha gonna do when Scripture's misconstrued.....
Jonathan Edwards' most famous sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" wouldn't fly in today's evangelical world...very few are willing to tell sinners that they are under the wrath of God...that He is"...angry with the wicked every day. Instead what many hear is...they are "wounded" people who need therapy and a greater sense of "self-esteem". There's no redemption in that gospel...it's a gospel for people who "make mistakes" but aren't really bad people.
"The narrative on the Greak Awakening was bone chilling."
The 'Greak' Awakening happened in Greakonia. I am really referring to the 'Great' Awakening in MASS. :o)
"I will put it on my list to buy, but what point is made from it? "
It has been 2 years since I read it but some of it really stayed with me. Marsden quotes from Edwards' diary and notes on the conversions during the Great Awakening. They did not take someone's word for conversion, they looked at 'fruit' over a period of time. Today, that would be called legalism.
There were some false converts even during the Great Awakening and one story in particular gave me chills. In a nutshell becasue there was more to it: The false convert, who was a respected businessman in town, committed suicide by cutting his own throat. There was serious spiritual warfare going on because Satan hates an real Awakening. It shook people up because many thought he was a 'real' convert.
It was not all roses and Kumbaya. Some of the narrative about the Awakening is unbelieveable to us today. Thing is the Awakening was NOT man made. They did not 'plan a revival' like we do. It was supernatural.
If I got any of this wrong...scholars...out there...correct me. My memory is not that great.
AOG said,
Jonathan Edwards' most famous sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" wouldn't fly in today's evangelical world...very few are willing to tell sinners that they are under the wrath of God...that He is"...angry with the wicked every day. Instead what many hear is...they are "wounded" people who need therapy and a greater sense of "self-esteem". There's no redemption in that gospel...it's a gospel for people who "make mistakes" but aren't really bad people.
oc says: Therapy and self esteem are the gods of this world. But neither one saves the soul. Instead, they gently escort souls to hell.
Just sayin'.
oc.
NBBCOF friends...sorry to post a little off-topic, but I saw some of your comments under the "Southern Baptist Convention 2007" posting, and thought I'd chime in a bit belatedly. Some of you have rightly observed that what happened was just a vote for a feasibility study, and there's still a long way to go. More of my thoughts on that are here. I hope many of you will hold the committee's feet to the fire in June 2008 when it comes time to see what they've actually done.
It's the bylaws workgroup of the SBC Executive Committee that is charged with the task. I urge all of you to express your concerns to the chairman of that workgroup, Mr. Mitch Gavin, and ask him to copy your notes to the other committee members.
I was very disappointed to see that SBC president Frank Page immediately characterized the vote on the motion as a "moot point". When 8500 Southern Baptist messengers make their voices heard by a nearly unanimous vote, it's hardly "moot." So, I would also urge you to write to Frank Page and let him know that the clergy sex abuse issue doesn't seem like something "moot" to you. You can find email addresses for Mr. Gavin, Dr. Page and others here.
NBBCOF: I so liked your "good old boys network" comment that I reprinted it on my own blog - here - hope you don't mind.
Christa Brown
SNAP Baptist Coordinator
www.StopBaptistPredators.org
There will always be false converts, in all generations, whether in the midst of spiritual awakening or not. The Bible tells us so. There are many warnings about false profession and professors...we are bid to examine ourselves, see if we pass the test, work out our salvation with fear and trembling. In the "second great awakening" Charles Finney, the father of the modern altar call, had many "converts" who quickly fell away...so much so that he left in his wake a "burnt out district" in the northeast, and to this day remains a mainly Godless area of the country. Not everything that glitters is gold...and not every "method" is of God.
AOG said, "Jonathan Edwards' most famous sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" wouldn't fly in today's evangelical world...very few are willing to tell sinners that they are under the wrath of God..."
AOG, have you ever heard of Paul Washer? If not, you need to hear him.
Lindon said...
Jon Estes wrote: "I missed the part where scripture teaches us that this is for pastors only. Where are the context cops when you need one?
Seriously, I think it would be best if all of us who make comment here live by the same creed.
7:34 AM, June 28, 2007
Mr Estes, I am astounded that you, a pastor who believes in ‘God’s anointed man’, believes the sheep should model these things for the Shepherd. Isn’t it the other way around?
Color me confused. :o)
3:05 PM, June 30, 2007
Lindon,
What was the next word in the post to which you show of mine? It is "seriously". In context that would at least show the 1st part is TIC. Sorry for the confusion.
But to respond directly to your question. We all should demonstrate it, period. Think about it this way, to put 1 Cor. 13 in print and say the pastor should abide by this is to know what it says. We all know what Matthew 7:12 means. We all know 1 Cor. 13 is not a one way directive. It is a shame for anyone on this forum to say the pastor needs to demonstrate 1 Cor. 13 to us or we are not going to follow 1 Co. 13.
Would it be fair to say many here seek to hold the pastor to something they themselves will not abide by?
From the facts (not all the scuttlebutt), SG has made enough mistakes that warrant a resignation. That's how I see it. It would be fair to say he does not see it the same way. The church then gets to make the decision and it seems the church is not going to remove him.
Where does that leave you?
ima,
Yes I heard his sermon to Southern Baptist youth...I'm sure it was quite a shock to their systems..but a much needed message in our times. As OC said, many are being gently coddled into hell.
25+ wrote:
"'Boys'?
"Does that glorify Christ?"
Well, no less so than this, I suppose.
Lindon,
I have had the fear of losing everything. As a matter of fact, I have had to move in with some friends this past week due to employment issues.
Nor do I have my health insurance, dental, eye, or my free cell phone etc. but I disgress.
I believe that God takes care of His sheep. I also believe that the staffers need to take a stand. There are many many many churchs out there that will employ them, and I am not a believer that their name will be covered in mud or whatever analogy you used.
With all the drama taking place in that once wonderful place, I doubt with a little soul searching that any church would deny them a job. The issues within Bellevue have started to become public enough that many people are catching wind.
If you feel like God's will is not being done, then you need to remove yourself from that situation.
Estes:"What was the next word in the post to which you show of mine? It is "seriously". In context that would at least show the 1st part is TIC. Sorry for the confusion."
I am afraid I am not real hip on on 'pastor shorthand'. Does TIC mean Totally in Context?
Estes:" We all know 1 Cor. 13 is not a one way directive. It is a shame for anyone on this forum to say the pastor needs to demonstrate 1 Cor. 13 to us or we are not going to follow 1 Co. 13."
But, I did not say that, did I? Read it again. I am going to go back to your FIRST comment on this blog. That comment leaves me with an impression of what you really believe. You quoted Three Kings by Gene Edwards. (Ironically the same book Gaines used with staff) You left us with the impression that Gaines is 'God's anointed man' and that we should not be blogging about the situation. (You likened it to 'throwing spears')
Besides the fact the teaching in Three Kings does NOT parallel this situation with a false teacher, it also does not take into consideration the CROSS OF CHRIST and the veil that was torn in two.
(Gene Edwards has his own challenges with being a king)
"Would it be fair to say many here seek to hold the pastor to something they themselves will not abide by?"
What is unloving about rebuke for a false teacher? What is unloving about warning of a false teacher. Not everyone here does it perfectly, of course. But you are holding them to a higher standard than you are holding one of your peers!
You would have more credibility as a pastor here if you had rebuked Gaines publicly for verified factual sin than to come here and beat on the sheep with cheap grace and books written by mere men.
If that sounds mean, I cannot help it...if you saw me and heard my tone you would hear and see pleading.
Where are the Spurgeons of today?
"From the facts (not all the scuttlebutt), SG has made enough mistakes that warrant a resignation. That's how I see it."
Finally. Thank you. My esteem for you is growing from a Biblical perspective.
"It would be fair to say he does not see it the same way."
Fair? What is truth of scripture?
" The church then gets to make the decision and it seems the church is not going to remove him."
Then it is no longer a church because it ignores scripture. What does that make it?
"Where does that leave you?"
On my knees. Warning of false teachers. Contending for the Faith.
And you?
"I believe that God takes care of His sheep"
Justin, did you know that many times REAL sanctification in a true believer can look like total defeat to the world?
Sometimes HE has taken 'care' of His sheep by allowing them to be martyred on a pyre.
Praise His Holy Name.
Amen!
Yeah lin, I agree. Doesn't look 'prosperous', does it?
I've been sitting here thinking about something.
The likes of 'Why The Worm' and his brand of Christianity. I am wondering if he would go along with ANYBODY in the pulpit, if his leaders tell him to.
I wonder if, say a Porn Kingpin were to be endorsed by his idol, as a pastor, bySG and co., if he would get in line and tell those of us who protest that we are ' weak Christians'.
He apparently did not have a problem with the embezzler coming to GBC...anything goes, as long as he doesnt' have to think for himself or apply Biblical principles to the party line handed down to him by his ' authority'.
He apparently thinks that anyone who wants integrity in the ministry are just ' troublemakers'.
This is the sort of guy that you would not want to loan money to, or to allow your child to be in the room with alone. He has no scruples, no integrity, no ability to think for himself.
Is this the face of the new BBC?
****
On a different matter, I have also been thinking about this:
Is it just me, or do ya'll get the idea that to hold Dr. Rogers in high esteem is no longer " politically correct" within the new BBC. Somehow, they have managed to make his name offensive, to where if you say something admiringly about him, those who support SG will snare. Even those who professed to love him while he was their pastor have been turned against him by SG and his trolls.
Would someone please comment on this?
Thanks.
Lin,
Those are sacrifices we have to be willing to make in His name.
Mr. Estes, I would like to make a suggestion or a request, actually. When you think you see a lack of Grace portrayed here...name names. Be specific. Explain why they are wrong, etc.
These vague pleas for more 'Grace' remind me of the memo's I used to see all the time that my clients would send out that caused horrible problems for them in the long run.
ONE person would be caught doing something stupid and the next thing you know, everyone was getting a memo about the new policy. As if they were all guilty of the specific stupidity.
Not only is that bad for morale in any organization...the person doing the wrong usually does not think it applies to them! Trust me on this(as a corporate trainer for many years)had they any discernment and/or social skills they would not have done the stupid thing in the first place.
If you are uncomfortable publicly rebuking what you see as someone 'publicly' lacking Grace, then e-mail the person. But we can all learn from a Biblically sound rebuke. That is IF you use scripture in context and not more books. :o)
You can start with me....again. :o)
SOTL: Seems like you've been doing a lot of pondering lately! ;) Of course the current administration (I used that word on purpose) doesn't like AR. He was what they aren't: honorable. Not perfect. Not sinless. But honorable.
Lin,
TIC = Tongue in Cheek
Some of you might want to take a look at this. I am appalled that there are those making comments against this poor lady who was taken in handcuffs to jail from her church in Allen, Michigan. The story, if you haven't already read it, is encased in this story. This is a situation similar to my own and similar to the one those of you on this blog are undergoing right now.
I just wonder when are people going to wake up?
I am sorry...I forgot to include the link. It is right
here
Of course Lin...you should have know that TIC stood for 'tongue in cheek'. You just MIATWA. :)
Ima
Hey blog FRIENDS!
My comments on 2 separate posts....
SOTL,
Your observation (which I am witnessing also) reminds me of the "mob mentality" we see in the passion play (back when I participated).
The crowd ran to meet Jesus when He rode in on the donkey. The crowd was singing his praises!
Fast forward to the same crowd yelling "crucify Him"!!!!
my other comment ...
I made the mistake the other day of being insensitive to the fact that we HAVE true pastors posting or reading our blog.
Just as I am hurt or angered when people make blanket statements about those of us who have experienced sexual abuse,
we hurt those who are standing with us when we say things using a "broad stroke "(or brush?)....by making them feel we are grouping them with the greedy unloving pastors!
I know that's not what we mean so ...
to MOST of the pastors blogging here with us.....
we love you and please forgive our broad stuff.(sorry,can't ever remember sayings)...
Lin says I am concrete...so glad I now have an excuse:)
Lin,
It is odd you keep bringing up, in a negative way, the use of other material saying
You would have more credibility as a pastor here if you had rebuked Gaines publicly for verified factual sin than to come here and beat on the sheep with cheap grace and books written by mere men.
Yet on your own blog you use material by -G.D. Watson and others.
Rationalizing that is difficult at best.
"Of course Lin...you should have know that TIC stood for 'tongue in cheek'. You just MIATWA. :)"
I have a good excuse...Ima (get it) a blonde. I was going to be real pious and say I only think in 'context' all the time...but you all know better.
We need those little emoticons here to communicate. I am acronym challenged.
I'm acronym challenged too....
MIATWA?????
Lin,
I have not brought up grace on this thread but I will do as you ask and if I must I will list the offenses, as I see them, like I did on the previous thread.
"Yet on your own blog you use material by -G.D. Watson and others.
Rationalizing that is difficult at best."
Who was I rebuking with the GD Watson post?
I am unclear why you would think posting an old and well known article by GD Watson is in any way parallel with using 'Three Kings' to specifically rebuke and teach us your beliefs about 'God's anointed'?
In any event, you made me think of something I really should do...I need to put a disclaimer on every post that we must all be Bereans at all times with everything. Thanks.
Jon,
You would have more credibility here if you would answer questions directly instead of dodging them.
You never did answer the question about how we are to resolve the problems when The pastor himself or at least one of his handlers has said that Matt. 18 does not apply to him. This blog would not be in existance to begin with if it wasn't for the dodging of questions by members, just as you have appeared to be doing here.
Answer the question and maybe then I'll consider you credible.
"I have not brought up grace on this thread but I will do as you ask and if I must I will list the offenses, as I see them, like I did on the previous thread."
I say go for it. We can all learn and be Bereans. But let us go back to your first post on this thread in response to Junk posting 1 Corinthians 13
"I missed the part where scripture teaches us that this is for pastors only. Where are the context cops when you need one?
Seriously, I think it would be best if all of us who make comment here live by the same creed."
Ok. Now, please go back and look at the topic posted for this thread.
Why do you keep changing the subject of the topic in your comments?
Do you think that Junk does not know he is a sinner saved by grace? What is wrong with him posting 1 Corinthians 13 to describe the qualities he would like to see in a pastor?
Do you believe that he has to model that passage perfectly before he can post such a comment?
How do you preach on sin since you are so imperfect, too? (Do you preach about wrath, sin, sanctification, hell?)
I double dog dare you to read 'Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God' by Edwards to your congregation this Sunday. :o)
Read it word for word and let us know how it comes out.
Super...,
I can't tell you specifically how to solve your problems with the pastor, no one can except the Holy Spirit.
What I can tell you is what I have posted in the previous thread out of Colossians. The put on / put off passages. What I can tell you is to make sure all that you do is done in honor and respect of Christ and is salt and light.
I have never said don't state the facts or don't deal with the problem, what I have said is do it with grace. Lost people are reading this and we need to make sure they see the light of Jesus in us.
Here is the list of my concerns (in order) as it relates to this blog.
1 - Your hurt
2 - Your witness
3 - Your walk with God
4 - Your integrity
You and others have said the pastor does not care and I think you know that is not going to change without a divine intervention. This blog may get someone at BBC to notice a mistake in the bulletin and see it corrected but you are dealing with a man's life and heart, not a bulletin.
It is possible you will never get what you want out of this mess but I stress make sure what you put into it is what honors the Lord.
Do unto others...
Sometimes what I read, as an outsider, is that many have become a lot like that which they loathe. This is not good.
Why do you keep changing the subject of the topic in your comments?
Because the subject is not one sided, no matter how much people here want it to be.
Is it harder to look in the mirror for sin or at the one we loathe?
Jon wrote:
"Sometimes what I read, as an outsider, is that many have become a lot like that which they loathe. This is not good."
"Is it harder to look in the mirror for sin or at the one we loathe?"
Good grief. Who said anything about "loathing" anyone? I think you've made a big leap, sir! I still don't know what your purpose is here, but you seem to have said what you came here to say -- several times over. You stated yourself that you're an outsider. As such, apparently not being able to see from your ivory tower just what we're dealing with, you might want to consider refraining from commenting about something of which you have little knowledge. We've had any number of "outsiders" here who do "get it," and their input has been invaluable. Unfortunately, you're just not one of them.
concernedSBCer said..."I'm acronym challenged too....MIATWA?????"
My, my concerned! I'm surprised at you! You are just missing it all the way around! Just like Lin!
:)
I don't like acronyms either!
"Lost people are reading this and we need to make sure they see the light of Jesus in us."
I am going to pull an 'Estes'
Lost people also saw a mega church pastor who had no problem keeping a pedophile minister of prayer on staff until the outcry was to great.
See, it works BOTH ways. :o)
"Because the subject is not one sided, no matter how much people here want it to be.
Is it harder to look in the mirror for sin or at the one we loathe? "
Who do we loathe? This is like saying because my mom spanked me she hated me.
Come on, Mr. Estes...say what you really want to say...
You believe this blog even existing is sin, don't you.
SOTL said,
On a different matter, I have also been thinking about this:
Is it just me, or do ya'll get the idea that to hold Dr. Rogers in high esteem is no longer " politically correct" within the new BBC. Somehow, they have managed to make his name offensive, to where if you say something admiringly about him, those who support SG will snare. Even those who professed to love him while he was their pastor have been turned against him by SG and his trolls.
Would someone please comment on this?
oc says:
Oh boy. This is touchy. Ok, it's kind of like a divorce. Or a death. Both are sometimes quite the same. Even though AR did not leave on his own accord, many of those who loved him are hurt by his leaving. In the grieving process, the pain of perceived abandonment is often followed by anger, and that anger manifests itself in many ways. Sometimes it is extreme anger at the one who is now gone, and the replacement(SG) could be seen as a
'savior' , or a relief for the pain. In order to show loyalty to the new 'savior', the person who has gone is now denigrated , in order to allow the one (or ones) who have felt abandoned a sense of retaliation, a getting even, so to speak. It is all about lashing out in pain, a search to make sense of the pain, in my opinion.
Don't know. Just sayin'.
oc.
Mr. Jon Estes,
I have been reading some of what you say. I really don't have a comment one way or the other. It doesn't matter what I think about what you say...that is totally unimportant.
However, I would like to make a request of you. Go back to my post of 5:44 pm this evening; click on 'here' and go to that website of Slice of Laodicea by Ingrid Schleuter. Read all of it thoroughly, including Ingrids' comments, the article and post itself, and the comments at the end. Digest it. Then, please if you would come back to this blog and tell me what you think. Tell us all what you think about this.
Thanks...
Ima
Lin said...
"Lost people are reading this and we need to make sure they see the light of Jesus in us."
I am going to pull an 'Estes'
Lost people also saw a mega church pastor who had no problem keeping a pedophile minister of prayer on staff until the outcry was to great.
See, it works BOTH ways. :o)
7:31 PM, June 30, 2007
I agree that such a decision was wrong and not productive to the Kingdom.
I also agree it is working both ways, as you so well state.
Imaresistor,
Great article and good advice given to Sara, I believe by the web site host:
Advice to Sara: Until enough of the congregation rises up regarding these issues, there’s no strategy or plan that will get you back your church. Walk out, shake the dust off your shoes and try to find an assembly where God and His Word are still honored. If you can’t find one, meet in a home and find some preaching on sites like sermonaudio.com. Just don’t stay and fight. If the rest of the church wants this kind of pastor, you just end up making unsavory headlines and ultimately shaming Christ publicly, as this pastor has done. There’s a time to leave a place that has sold out to church growth methods.
Things like this should not happen, but they do and you precious people here see BBC as one such place.
Let me change tone...
If your group does not get big enough to make the needed changes or be heard, how long do you continue until you shake the dust off and move on?
Is this healthy for your soul and walk with Christ?
Mr. Estes,
Let's take this one step at a time.
You said, "Things like this should not happen, but they do and you precious people here see BBC as one such place."
Comment: I'd be interested in knowing how you see BBC?
jon estes says:
If your group does not get big enough to make the needed changes or be heard, how long do you continue until you shake the dust off and move on?
oc says: Hmmm. I'm sure of this. Until Hell freezes over. There are some things you don't shake your shoes off of.
Just sayin',
oc.
Jon Estes......I think I've answered that question for you before too.....this is about TRUTH and right and wrong.....whether at some point we must move on past what's left of BBC, I think I can say with all certainty and sincerity that this group of truthseekers will continue to study and stand for TRUTH.
Mr. Estes,
Why are you really here? You say the same things over and over, but you never really answer people's questions or offer any practical advice. It's not your place (nor mine) to tell anyone when they should move on, "shake the dust off their feet," or whatever. We've heard "if you don't like it, leave" from enough of our fellow church members, and many of us have or will move on. Others, for reasons known only to themselves and the Lord, have chosen to stay. It's hurtful enough hearing it from people here without someone in another state spouting the same thing. You sound like a broken record.
You know, for someone who claims he's so busy pastoring a church, enjoying his family, and running six blogs of his own, you certainly seem to have a lot of time on your hands to come here and "advise" us. The day I hear you publicly rebuke Steve Gaines for his bad decisions and the damage he's caused, we'll talk. Until then, please just cease.
I'll ask you what you asked us, namely, how long do you intend to continue to come here and dispense unsolicited advice until you shake the dust off and move on? Is this healthy for your soul and walk with Christ?
Estes wrote: Let me change tone...
If your group does not get big enough to make the needed changes or be heard, how long do you continue until you shake the dust off and move on?
Is this healthy for your soul and walk with Christ?"
Oh, I get it now. You think there are people here who still think they can stage a coup and get BBC back? That ship has sailed.
BBC is a living, fluid example of what is going on all over the place including the SBC.
This blog has lots of warts but there are people here searching scriptures.
What is there to move on from when people are sitting under false teachers?
Notice Ingrid told the woman to move on to another church. Most here have done that. But, she did not tell her to never discuss what happened or not to try and warn those under such a false teacher.
Ingrid can't tell her that because a big part of Ingrid's ministry is warning of and communicating about such abominations as what has happened at BBC.
Jon, Please email me. I have a quick question.
Thanks.
"I agree that such a decision was wrong and not productive to the Kingdom."
Perfect example of what we are trying to communicate here. You call it 'not productive to the kingdom'.
We call it the willfull ignoring of scripture by a pastor who should know better.. And there are plenty more examples, unfortuantly. So the only conclusion is:
1. He does not know scripture. That is bad.
2. He knows scripture but does not care. That is bad, too.
Thank you, Lin for putting it in a nutshell.
And he's not the only one.....
gmommy, nass..you have mail
Mr. Estes...
Where are you?
ima,
Maybe he ceased.
He didn't email me either.
:/
jon wrote,
.... but they do and
you precious people here
see BBC as one such place.
response.....
your comment feels like some non apologies I've had from prideful people who say...
"I'm sorry that you got upset over what I said"
We know what is going on ....and we are not going to stop talking.
We aren't the ones that SG has been able to manipulate....do you see yourself as more slick that SG?????
Jon,
Is this healthy for your soul and walk with Christ?
Response,
FYI, we HAVE pastors we trust and respect from this blog and/or who email us individually.
I personally don't take just anyone opinion or advise...especially concerning spiritual matters.
You have no relationship with any of us here. Why do you think you will have any impact on what we believe and stand for????
and please don't sprinkle in the precious stuff.
You were very condescending the first day you appeared here.
We are not easily fooled...
no matter what our numbers seem to be.....
:)
GMommy: You've got mail.
:)
Ignoring, ignoring....
trolling, trolling.....
Trolling Trolling Trolling...Get your trolling motor....troll hyde!
why said...
Answer to ALL your issues: Give it to God as you should ave already done and LEAVE if you cannot worship at BBC.
10:29 PM, June 30, 2007
Perhaps you should listen to your own advice and quit coming here if you don't like it....oh wait...nm, your supposed to be BANNED. Let me spell it out for you...
B....A....N....N....E....D...
Lynn..
good one!!! Aren't you a little young to know that song????
I'm young, but I like older music better than today's stuff.
Why, Do you think it is appropriate to come to a blog where you have been banned?
I care about you, friend. I really do.
Lynn,
But that was a TV show I watched back when Gunsmoke was the #1 show......I'm old!
gmommy said...
Lynn,
But that was a TV show I watched back when Gunsmoke was the #1 show......I'm old!
10:37 PM, June 30, 2007
Two words....TV Land :)
I would think you could ban these people by IP or some other method. If so that would certainly keep the trolls out.
Justin,
In theory that would work. However, with Blogger, its just not feasible without putting the blog on constant moderation.
Ah, perhaps I need to donate server space with Wordpress, since it can import Blogger. I may need to talk to the moderator.
Justin, we don't want to make the blogger private but those that have been banned do need to stay off. Nass shows great restraint in banning so if someone has been banned, it is for a good reason.
:)
Night Truthseekers......have a blessed Lord's Day....wherever you are.
:)
Since Piglet is not here tonight, I'll give you your kiss on your little fuzzy angry head.
Good night. Try not to get that blood pressure up too much....tomorrow is Sunday!
:)
I was not talking about making it private. I was saying that I know of someone here has been banned and they seem to return. I am not a Blogger person, so I am not sure what controls one has.
Justin: I knew that, I was just passing on a little more info for you since you are new, that's all.
:)
why the worm,
Isn't it time for you to crawl back in your hole?
I have had many run ins with several Bellevue members who have used rather rough language. So don't try that crybaby garbage.
Guys,
I apologize for painting all pastors with a broad brush. That was wrong, and it was said in frustration.
I'm just so tired of being called a troublmaker just because i will not stand for criminals in the pulpit.
To those good pastors out there, thank you for standing for what is right. WE need more like you. Thank you for your selfless devotion. God Bless You!!
Justin,
Wordpress (the free edition) doesn't allow you to block individuals either. I've looked into it. I've considered going to a regular message board format, but I just haven't had time to get it set up and learn a new system.
We depend on the honor system here when on rare occasions someone is banned for excessively bad behavior. Unfortunately, "whyne" and "watchinghissssssstory" have no honor.
NASS,
I have much experience with various blog software. If you would like to discuss in more detail, email me, I have supplied it.
Just as I predicted. Full moon brings the loonies out every time.
TW, shouldn't you be out bayin' at it?
why,
I guess you are the first one I have ever seen who has absolutely no shame. That includes inmates I have talked to in Texas and Mississippi prisons. They at least have some sense of honor. That you lack that is quite alarming, to say the least.
Just sayin',
oc.
Wow, oc! I never knew. What were you in fer?
And "whyne" is supposedly a BBC deacon. Isn't that something? One might say it's even pathetic.
I never will understand what joy someone would get out of trying to rile everyone up. Sad, really.
why,
Yes, I have honor, I am not banned from here. You are. Must be a reason for it. Should I be banned from here, I would not try to crawl through the bathroom window to mske my ridiculous statements, like a 'word sniper'. Hit and run, cry and hide. I would think that you would understand by now what 'banned' means. But you don't get it. Or you do, but don't care. That is a lack of honor. You keep proving over and over that you have no honor.
And you did it again tonight. Thanks for making it easy.
Your friend and mine,
oc.
NASS said,
Wow, oc! I never knew. What were you in fer?
oc says:
You haven't figured it out yet? It was assault and battery of the English language.
Just sayin'.
oc. ;)
OC,
Nothing wrong with that. heh
New BBC Open Forum said...
Mr. Estes,
Why are you really here? You say the same things over and over, but you never really answer people's questions or offer any practical advice. It's not your place (nor mine) to tell anyone when they should move on, "shake the dust off their feet," or whatever.
The advice to shake the dust off the feet was from an article I was asked to read and comment on.
I have never said quit blogging but I have suggested that what is posted be Christ honoring. I agree that most think what they post concerning SG is Christ honoring. Some is and some isn't.
Expose the truth, do it! But please think about all who read this blog, not just the ones hurt from BBC but those hurt from sin and needing a Savior.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Mr. Estes,
Why are you really here? You say the same things over and over, but you never really answer people's questions or offer any practical advice. It's not your place (nor mine) to tell anyone when they should move on, "shake the dust off their feet," or whatever. We've heard "if you don't like it, leave" from enough of our fellow church members, and many of us have or will move on. Others, for reasons known only to themselves and the Lord, have chosen to stay. It's hurtful enough hearing it from people here without someone in another state spouting the same thing. You sound like a broken record.
The shake the dust comment was from an article I was asked to read by one of the posters.
I know what I say is not popular here. It seems most believe what they post is done with grace or in honor of Christ. Much is, but it does not take much ugliness to affect the good stuff.
You know, for someone who claims he's so busy pastoring a church, enjoying his family, and running six blogs of his own, you certainly seem to have a lot of time on your hands to come here and "advise" us. The day I hear you publicly rebuke Steve Gaines for his bad decisions and the damage he's caused, we'll talk. Until then, please just cease.
Friday is my day off and Saturday is a non work day most of the time.
As I have stated prior I am not here to rebuke you but to help (whether you see it or not). I do care for each person who posts here and want the best for them.
I'll ask you what you asked us, namely, how long do you intend to continue to come here and dispense unsolicited advice until you shake the dust off and move on? Is this healthy for your soul and walk with Christ?
8:55 PM, June 30, 2007
As long as the Lord leads. And I find this quite healthy for my soul and walk with Christ. I can be very ungracious if I am not careful. I can be downright ugly with my tongue. So yes, this is helpful. The tongue is a mighty thing and I do not want it to be used to be disrespectful or damaging.
If my being here and sharing what I share is wrong, not just different, and you believe it would be best I not come back. Just say so.
About me for your benefit: I'm not an unloving beast but a pretty good pastor who loves his people and the world. I am evangelistic by call and love being with other people. I'll grad a hammer or mower and join in the work for the church or neighborhood. I do missions and not just talk about them. I preach above par and love spending time with my grandchild and am looking forward to the second one being here in Nov. Both my boys serve in the USCG. Fine young men who love Jesus and their mom. A great but shy daughter-in-law. I need to lose weight and we just bought our home. A great buy on a golf course where we are updating it as quickly as we can. My wife and I love walking, though we need to pick up the pace for health benefits. The people at the church I pastor love me (I'm still fairly new here though - LOL). I sometimes try and be funny and it does not work.
Now you know a little about me so maybe I won't seem like a stranger.
Whyne, Whyne, Whyne,
Whyne are your leaders so afraid more "BAD" stuff is gonna come out?
Do they send you here to frustrate NASS enough to put on moderation to keep the truth swept under the rug??
I say let you spew... you only expose the truth of the corruption within BBC. There must be a lot of bones rattling around that you and so many like you are fearing will come out of the closet.
Let the world see the evil that is lurking inside the confines of our once great Bellevue Baptist Church, ony full disclosure and truth came bring cleansing and healing to BBC.
And you're a DEACON??!! In your own words, "how sad, how pathetic, how hateful". What might you be fearing??
Why comes here even though he's been banned for one purpose...to disrupt the blog...every time comment moderation goes up he feels more powerful...every time moving to another format is mentioned he feels more powerful and closer to his goal...don't give him the satisfaction. He calls others out on their sin, yet sins himself by continuing to come here when he knows he's been banned. Don't let him control things...that's what he wants...let his ridiculous statements stand...reasonable people will see him for who he is.
I don't think ' why the worm' is a deacon. I think he's a 21 y/o kid, with limited vocabulary.
I think that only an immature kid would continue to post on here when he has been banned.
He is not an adult. He's a little creep.
"I know what I say is not popular here. It seems most believe what they post is done with grace or in honor of Christ. Much is, but it does not take much ugliness to affect the good stuff."
Mr. Estes, It has never been and I pray never will be about popularity but only about truth in scripture and deed.
My suggestion is to reprint
allofgrace's 8:32 post as often as why
and those like him
(watching being an exception)
come on the blog with the same ol spew.
aog is correct! Why shows himself clearly to anyone using their brain.
He/she/it only affirms our position on this blog.
as far as jon goes,
I believe he has an agenda. For me personally, he is the same as Whyne.
The fact that he is a minister gives him no relationship or credibility to advise or influence me.
If others feel differently, that is certainly their right or opinion.
I believe that jon and many others would rather the issues at BBC or anywhere else in the SBC NOT be exposed , discussed, and possibly not even acknowledged for all the world to see.
He certainly can feel that way IF he in fact does.
I will respect and respond to the advise or instruction from Nass of course, 25+, lin, and others on here I know to be faithful and knowledgeable of God's word and desiring that I grow spiritually.
JMO
The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell;
It goes beyond the highest star,
And reaches to the lowest hell;
The guilty pair, bowed down with care,
God gave His Son to win;
His erring child He reconciled,
And pardoned from his sin.
Oh, love of God, how rich and pure!
How measureless and strong!
It shall forevermore endure—
The saints’ and angels’ song.
When hoary time shall pass away,
And earthly thrones and kingdoms fall,
When men who here refuse to pray,
On rocks and hills and mountains call,
God’s love so sure, shall still endure,
All measureless and strong;
Redeeming grace to Adam’s race—
The saints’ and angels’ song.
Oh, love of God, how rich and pure!
How measureless and strong!
It shall forevermore endure—
The saints’ and angels’ song.
Could we with ink the ocean fill,
And were the skies of parchment made,
Were every stalk on earth a quill,
And every man a scribe by trade;
To write the love of God above
Would drain the ocean dry;
Nor could the scroll contain the whole,
Though stretched from sky to sky.
Oh, love of God, how rich and pure!
How measureless and strong!
It shall forevermore endure—
The saints’ and angels’ song.
eprov said...
junk99male.....
I don't think you can make a blanket indictment of the 'movers and shakers, the CEOs, the wealthy and influential...' people as approving SG's lifestyle, or attempt at such.
I don't think I can either, and I don't think I did.
Its really disheartening that the flow of conversation has to be stopped due to the blog having to be on moderation mode because of a few bad seeds.
Sadly, our inability to have free flowing communication is exactly what BBC mafia would want. Its like communism.
Actually, Mr. Estes, the comment originated in the Scriptures. It is from Luke.
Luke 9:5:
And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
Kerygma said...
When W.A. Criswell announced back during the "conservative resurgence" that the pastor is the "ruler" of the church, it was like saying "sic 'em" to a bulldog.
W.A. Criswell was well known for a strong (almost dictatorial) leadership style in his operations of the staff, structure, and programs of his church. But that style did not usurp congregational government, and he did not teach or practice the concept "CEO pastor" that we see developing today.
By the way, "conservative resurgence" is an accurate description for the the change of direction of the SBC.
Jon L. Estes said...
I missed the part where scripture teaches us that this is for pastors only.
Since I posted the Scripture in reference (1 Cor 13), and your remark was posted in response to it, am I to take it that you are saying that I stated or implied that the passage applied to pastors only.
Seriously, I think we all ought to pay more attention to those "context police".
This is the college/seminary which produced Jason Burrick, the PA pastor who had the 70-year-old woman arrested and removed from the church where she'd been a member for almost 50 years. Particularly interesting (and sad) are the course descriptions offered for men versus women -- and the differences in the way each are treated. For example, female students cannot leave campus unless they're accompanied by a chaperone. Male students are free to leave campus and accept off campus employment to support themselves. The women are... well... not. Is it any wonder a product of such an institution would treat any woman the way this lady was treated?
NASS,
Thats disturbing.
BTW, my neice tried to get me in trouble with my mom after I spoke out to her about Joyce Meyer.
My neice doesn't go to church. Instead she puts her trust into tv ministers. I told her she really shouldn't be putting that much faith into tv ministers. I told her that she should look deeply into someone's background before she does anything.
NASS, there have only been two times in my life when I have gotten up and walked out of a service because the message was so far astray from the Scriptures that I couldn't continue to listen. It was in the mid 1970's, and one was a message preached by Dr. Jack Van Impe and the other was a message preached by Dr. Jack Hyles. Both messages were all of legalism with no grace to be found anywhere.
Absolutely no drinking, smoking, or dancing is allowed. No student is allowed to attend Hollywood movies, play cards, or participate in other questionable amusements. We do not fellowship with liberals, but instead take a strict separatist stand from the world and apostasy....
I thought the dancing,movies,playing cards,and liberals(it was Communists when I was a kid)were just a bad dream from my childhood!!!
This college is insane!
I couldn't finish reading becos today has already been a double beta blocker day but Nass is correct!!!!
No wonder this poor woman was treated so horribly!
I am looking on the map for Walton's Mountain again!!!!
I also looked on the site of Hyles-Anderson College. On the opening page there is a "saying" or "quote" from Dr. Jack Hyles. Each and every time you click, there is another saying.
However, the first saying to appear when I went to the website was this:
“A man's main business is God; a woman's main business is the man.”
-Dr. Jack Hyles
Well, brothers and sisters, I can tell you that I truly support only men in the pulpit and only men as deacons, BUT this goes waaaaay beyond that!
I'm sorry, but my jaw still hurts from the drop it took when I read A WOMAN'S MAIN BUSINESS IS THE MAN.
Urgggggh.
Where is the grace???
And gmommy was astonished at
"Absolutely no drinking, smoking, or dancing is allowed. No student is allowed to attend Hollywood movies, play cards, or participate in other questionable amusements."
Well, I graduated high school from Bob Jones Academy and lived in a dorm on Bob Jones Univeristy campus. Their rules were just as strict. No TV, no radio - except for the school's station. Males and Females were not allowed verbal communication until after the commencement of the first class of the day. No communication after the evening meal unless you were allowed to go to the "dating parlor", you could not go off campus and spend the night with your father unless your mother was there, major dress codes and so much more.
It does however, build character. The downside is it encourages deviance. I believe I broke almost every rule and only got caught once. But, I did get and excellent educaion both in the usual sense and biblically.
ahhh the independent fundies...aren't they fun?...i know a little about the type...you can't drink, smoke, dance, play cards, watch movies, etc...but you can cheat your neighbor and call it good business, cheat on your taxes...gossip, beat people over the head with your 40lb Scofield Bible, call everyone else a "liberal", etc. The Sword of the Lord lives on.
One would think that someone that got an excellent education would at least be able to spell the word 'education'.
One would think . . . a lot of things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyles-Anderson_College
Hey, It's wikipedia but when you google Hyles it is quite scary. Read about some of the professors. We are seeing the same uber-legalism over at Vision Forum and of course the ever famous Bill Gothard who once said, "Christians cannot handle freedom" to rationalize his legalism.
John McArthur once had an interesting exchange with Gothard about legalism:
"Dr. MacArthur tried to engage Gothard on his specific claims about divorce and remarriage, and on his lack of biblical support for those claims. Instead of dealing with the issue, Gothard pointed out a flock of beautiful geese behind a fence on the property — and said, “You know, if we didn’t clip their wings, they would all fly away.”
"Dr. MacArthur’s reply was classic: “But what if there were no geese?” He was trying to get Gothard to address the biblical issues, and all Gothard could do was explain, in his own chilling way, that it really didn’t matter what the NT said about freedom. We need to “clip their wings” to keep them from “flying away.” His meaning was obvious — and ominous."
Both Gothard and Phillips (Vision Forum) teach that all problems in a marriage are the wife's fault exclusively. I am serious! They are cults. I know some people who have come out of that cult and Gothards and they have published the tenents of Patriarchy these groups follow that are quite scary. They have 'anointed' earthly, kings, too. It is Talmudic.
Then there is legalism-light in seeker circles with the CEO/anointed/king teaching one to focus on 5 Steps to a healthy marriage and if you do not agree with them you are 'divisive'. All of this instead of a relationship with our Savior!
Anyone notice how this stuff is growing?
Ah yes, the independent fundies... ain't nothing like 'em.
I guess I should have included that the church I was attending at that time in the mid '70's was one of the same. In fairness, they weren't legalistic in their early years but they turned that way over time.
But I did know it was wrong for the choir director (who was married and the father of 4) to be having an affair with the church secretary (who was also married and the mother of 2). The preacher HAD TO KNOW this -- it was quite open and everyone did, but he chose to look the other way and continue to beat the congregational sheep three times weekly with more legalism. Do as I say and not as I do seemed to be the on-going mantra.
Oh, and later it was found out that in the meantime, the preacher and his wife were silently deeding church property over to themselves by way of a Trust in another state.
It's a long sad tale of woe when a man sets himself up as the only interpreter of the Scriptures. In Rome that man is called the Pope and that's another story unto itself.
hlouy -
anyone there?
hlouy was the word verification - I like it.
SOTL wrote:
"I think that only an immature kid would continue to post on here when he has been banned."
Well, it hasn't stopped a 60-year-old man from continuing to try.
Okay, my blog time for the evening it just about gone. No one is here.
I pray ferverently that the rapture has not occurred and I am sill here.
Okay, NBBCOF has posted since I thought the rapture had occurred.
Lily,
Everyone's probably over at BBC enjoying the festivities... and the mosquitoes.
Hi Lily, NBBCOF...
Does look empty tonight. I have been gone all day and thought I'd check in before going to bed to see what Mr. Estes' reply was to my question directed to him early last night. I see he hasn't answered me yet.
Mr. Estes?
Ima
Actually I've always considered Gothard as using psychology more than anything. I don't recall anything in his materials claiming that all marital problems are a woman's fault, but he does have a view that there is no such thing as a biblical divorce, and certainly no remarriage after divorce, regardless. He has some other odd views on finances, etc...he's one of the originals as far as an eisegetical approach to scripture...I never could figure out how he could see some of the "principles" as he would call them, in the scriptures he would use to support his thoughts.
Check out Christa Brown's blog....a post from one of our favorite's!
Anyone want to bowl on the 4th???:)
AOG and Mary
Hey, some of us former independent fundies are happy not remembering our past and the yoke of bondage we have hanging in our closets!
Quit dragging us down memory lane....
Just kidding. I am too busy jamming to christian rock music in my blue jeans with my bushy headed teenaged sons or playing cards and going to movies to care about Bill Gothard anymore.
Never will forget his story about the "possessed" electric guitar though... :) Remind you of anybody else we know?
gmommy said...
Check out Christa Brown's blog....a post from one of our favorite's!
Anyone want to bowl on the 4th???:)
10:44 PM, July 01, 2007
I'm in! I'll bowl.
Incredible sermon!!
The Truth of God Part 1
http://www.anchoredintruth.org/media/MP3%20Sermon%20Archive/Romans/a785e.mp3
Lin,
Link.
Nass, you know it is NOT because I am lazy. I do all the right html and my link thingie never works. I get an engine error. It only does that in comments on blogger. Go figure. Thanks so much for doing that.
I attended the Starlight Spectacular and I am shocked at the type of event it has turned into. The behavior of many in attendance would make one feel they were not at any type of Church event at all. Some crazy stuff was still going on in the parking lot after everything was coming to an end so no telling what went on there during the actual event. Apparently there were also some that went into the sanctuary and a very dark sanctuary I might add so it became necessary to place chairs against the doors. So all in all not a very family friendly event.
imaresistor said...
Mr. Estes,
Let's take this one step at a time.
You said, "Things like this should not happen, but they do and you precious people here see BBC as one such place."
Comment: I'd be interested in knowing how you see BBC?
8:30 PM, June 30, 2007
I apologize for not getting to this sooner but Sundays are a bit hectic for me. We had a great evening with the teens sharing their camp experiences, singing and testifying of God's saving grace.
I see BBC as a church in trouble but a church with enough resources to maintain, for a while and possible continue on as a different ship with the same name.
I see the leadership as being:
1 - Unreasonable in refusing to speak to those with concerns.
2 - Keeping things which should be transparent, covered up.
3 - Afraid of something, or to proud to be common.
I see the membership in two categories:
The Supporters:
1 - Willing to let whatever pass by without question because they are getting what they want.
2 - Willing to accept the changes because they believe it will reach more people in the long run.
3 - Like doing church more than being church
The Non-Supporters:
1 - Hurt because of the changes and major mistakes made by leadership.
2 - Mad because of the lack of integrity being shown by the leadership.
3 - Wanting to see a change in leadership and direction, at almost any cost.
That's how I see it.
Jason Burrick's seminary seems to be all about Sharia Law. They need to take it to Afghanistan and leave it there.
25 years plus:
I want to specifically apologize to you for my blanket statement the other day about pastors. It was said in frustration and it is TOTALLY wrong. I have apologized in an earlier post, but I fear that you did not see it, so I ask for your forgiveness, specifically.
The truth is that I only know about 5 of the 30,000 SBC pastors, and that in no way should paint them with the broad brush. It was a very ignorant statement, and I fear that I offended many many good pastors.
I didnt' mean to, but in retrospect,how could that statement have done anything BUT offend them?
Please forgive me for being so obtuse.
Maybe " why the worm" is really an inmate in a prison somewhere, which would explain why he is so fulll of hate and why he has no problem with criminals in the pulpit.
inmemphis,
What you say reminds me of reading the biblical account of Moses' descent from Mt. Sinai and finding the people in such grave, sinful condition.
The world is in such a horrible state.
inmemphis,
Can you be more specific? I'd like to know how the turn out was. I guess you can't help some stuff from happening when the event is not necessarily attended by church members, but I'd like to think some sort of decorum would be applicable if you're going to an event at a church.
I attended the Starlite Spectacular on Sunday night. I thought there was a very good crowd from what I could tell and I did not hear of any disturbances going on. I know the foyer had alot of people in it when I took the kids to the restrooms, but I did not notice anything "funny" going on or chairs blocking the doors.
The Natalie Grant concert was great, and the orchestra sounded really good. The fireworks were not as strong as I remembered, but it was still a nice night out. I actually thought the whole event went off well.
As far as being "shocked at the type of event it has turned into", I am not sure what events inmemphis is referring to, I did see some teenagers walking around smoking, and of course the parking lots were full and it took alittle time to get out, but that was to be expected.
My family and the friends we brought had a great time.
Memphis
Karen -
I was at Starlight and participated as I do most years and it was very well attended - my guess is most of it was for Natalie Grant and she was good but that part was short. This year the fireworks were not nearly as long or spectacular as in years past, and I don't really know why. As far as the sanctuary being dark and the doors being blocked, that is nothing new - they do that every year to keep people from wandering around inside the church.
However the event was not the same, and the sad part is that was probably the point they are trying to make - they want it to be different. Although the event was pretty well attended, there were so many familiar faces MISSING - people who have been at Bellevue for years and generations, people who helped build this church, were absent. There is a strong push to get new people there to replace the ones that have left - but there is so little effort to find and repair the damage to the scattered sheep. I've personally asked the administration about this and they had no answers.
I don't know the outcome or how long we are to endure - I don't know what else to do but pray.
"The Non-Supporters:
1 - Hurt because of the changes and major mistakes made by leadership.
2 - Mad because of the lack of integrity being shown by the leadership.
3 - Wanting to see a change in leadership and direction, at almost any cost."
Acutally it is more like this:
1. Appalled because of the lack of scriptural knowledge of leadership.
2. Appalled because leadership chose to ignore scripture when it has been pointed out. It is really quite clear for anyone who wants to read.
3. Appalled at the treatment of the victim of the crime and the message it sent to victims and even children in abuse everywhere.
4. Wondering why there are no shepherds out there who will call out this blatant sin and ignoring of scripture.
5. Frustrated because supporters or other 'weak' shepherds think they are just 'mad' about changes being made.
6. Frustrated because of the twisting of scripture to rationalize behavior.
7. The using of 'Three Kings' to rationalize ungodly behavior.
With all the cheap grace being thrown around these days we forget about the victims of abuse who are affected by this. Even current victims who are probably children and see how the grown ups are acting and treating a criminal and those who harbored him while they all totally disrepected the victim by refusing to meet with him for so very long and for refusing to let him speak at the meeting.
Karen: You've got mail.
:)
Hi all,
As you know, my dad is having right knee surgery in about 3 weeks. They just returned from a trip and dad's got really bad pains in his left calf and leg. Mom thought it was a blood clot, but the MRI on Friday said no. He's at the Dr. this morning so I'd appreciate your prayers. For those of you who know Joe, he doesn't complain, but the pain is pretty bad.
Thanks!
I've been claiming that Natalie Grant song "Held" for months now due to illness and other stuff. I'm glad she was a blessing. Here are words for your enjoyment :)
Natalie Grant - Held
From the album Awaken
Two months is too little
They let him go
They had no sudden healing
To think that Providence
Would take a child from his mother
While she prays, is appalling
Who told us we’d be rescued
What has changed and
Why should we be saved from nightmares
Were asking why this happens to us
Were asking...
Who have died to live, it’s unfair
Chorus:
This is what it means to be held
How it feels, when the sacred is torn from your life
And you survive
This is what it is to be loved and know
That the promise was when everything fell
We’d be held
This hand is bitterness
We want to taste it and
Let the hatred numb our sorrows
The wise hand opens slowly
To lilies of the valley and tomorrow
Chorus:
If hope is born of suffering
If this is only the beginning
Can we not wait, for one hour
Watching for our Savior
Chorus: (2X’s)
"A little man or woman can cause big troubles for a big man. A big man has a choice he can either fight back and beat them up or let them go on their way"
Some say, "fight back" some say' "just forget it, others say, "go away or stay."
Most likely Jesus would say, "Get behind me Satan; I am going to the garden to pray"
Please people let us follow Jesus to the garden, be quiet before God in complete surrender and allow God to show us how little we have become. HE desires for us to become the big men and women.
This was written recently by our Bible Fellowship teacher in BBC and our class has agreed to adopt this as our filter regarding our issues with others.
I wanted to share this with you because I believe it would make a impact upon our entire church if we all would grasp the wisdom and apply it.
Kaylee
Kaylee: Can you please explain more of what you mean? I'm trying to "grasp the wisdom" but I'm just not getting it. Shouldn't the filter for everything be scripture?
David Perdue reportedly resigned from the board of directors of Love Worth Finding last week in order to devote more time to Steve Gaines' TV ministry.
Kaylee said...
"A little man or woman can cause big troubles for a big man. A big man has a choice he can either fight back and beat them up or let them go on their way"
Some say, "fight back" some say' "just forget it, others say, "go away or stay."
Most likely Jesus would say, "Get behind me Satan; I am going to the garden to pray"
kaylee,
It's a dangerous thing to take a man-made little ditty such as that and make it a filter for how you deal with anything. Also, no man should be so bold as to assume what Jesus would say...Jesus has already spoken, and we would all be wise to stick to that. Be careful about accepting what men say as though it came from the mouth of God himself, rather test all things against the plumbline of God's word. Philosophy is just a man's opinion, God's word is truth.
"A little man or woman can cause big troubles for a big man. A big man has a choice he can either fight back and beat them up or let them go on their way"
Kaylee, There are NO big or little men or women in Christendom. There are ONLY 2 categories of people in the NT: Sheep or Goats.
Within those two categories there are atheists, 'professing' Christians, true Christians, agnostics, and all other relgions. (Study Matthew. Pay close attention to chapter 7. He is not talking about Madonna in the that passage. He is talking about PROFESSING CHRISTIANS.)
Except for true Christians on the narrow road, all others will be burned up. Yes, that sounds strong but it is not my teaching, it is scripture. If you or anyone else does not like it, please take it up with God.
You are right that we should pray but we are also called to contend for the Faith (Jude). We are also told to warn of false teachers. Everyone keeps saying to let God handle it. Well, if we approached everything with that attitude, we would NEVER evangelize, would we?
concernedSBCer said...
Kaylee: Can you please explain more of what you mean? I'm trying to "grasp the wisdom" but I'm just not getting it. Shouldn't the filter for everything be scripture?
12:53 PM, July 02, 2007
There were several Scriptures dealing with spending time in the temple of the Holy God. I remember one was in Isaiah when he met with the Lord he fell down and confessed his sins and the sins of those who he thought were in the wrong. Meeting with God matures the baby Christian because we see how little all people are in His presence and we all have a very bad problem we must return to true prayer time with God.
Our lesson was all about what it takes to solve issues between husbands and wives, brothers and sisters, etc.
What a different world it would be if all who say they believe in Jesus Christ would go into the spiritual temple before we enter into our own mindset toward other people who share our faith. The world is full of lost people who have lost respect for us; why? BECAUSE WE DO NOT MEET WITH GOD.
The greatest sin in our churches today is not what they do it is what we don't do; we call our selves people of prayer (a lie) saying that we pray is not praying!
Anyone can say anything; but the truth is, those who really do meet with God, their attitudes and actions are full of compassion for one another when they come out.
I may not be explaining this very well but my teacher can. I have met with the Lord myself and instead of anger toward any one I am concerned about everyone of us. We have made prayer a by-word and have wasted our breath. Some teach that it is no need to pray because God is going to do what He wants to do. It is a shame when, "Christians" are cutting one another down and telling the world this is what Jesus is all about! It is OUR Lord who told us to pray but few people even grasp what true prayer really is all about. It is obvious that God is not pleased with His people and how much longer will grace permit us to go on? The way things are going on in families and churches all across the nation; we could be on our last call to repentance.
I will get the other Scripture ref. and post them later if you would like.
Kaylee: What would you say if I told you I spend quite a bit of time in prayer? With regard to this blog alone, I pray before I type and I pray before I post. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how can assumptions be made on how much people are praying? I absolutely agree that we should be "in the Temple" praying, but I also think we should be in the Word studying. Much of what we ask direction for has already been addressed in scripture.
Some of the issues at BBC were addressed long ago in the Bible, starting with the Ten Commandments. One doesn't need to question what to do with some of those situations since God already gave us a foundation of right and wrong.
concernedsbcer,
You should have mail.
kaylee,
While prayer is important, and I don't want to minimize it, even more important is to obey. Obey God's commandments and statutes.
See Deuteronomy 28. The reason we have the world in a tailspin today is explained in this scripture. We are living the curse. All because we refuse to obey. It all comes down to disobedience. You can pray all you want, but they won't get above the ceiling if you don't do the will of God. And you don't know the will of God if you don't read His Word.
Reading what you are writing, I am terrified that you are falling into this mysticism, new way to worship...stuff...The fact is, He talks to us through the WORD. And you don't have to "meet" Him anywhere if He is in your heart....Get in the Word....
Kaylee said, "Anyone can say anything; but the truth is, those who really do meet with God, their attitudes and actions are full of compassion for one another when they come out."
Comment:
Hi Kaylee...I have to agree with Ezekiel. What you say above that I have posted, "...those who really do meet with God...are full of compassion for one another when they 'come out'" I am not going to elaborate other than to say I wish you would explain what you said? "Really do meet with God?" "When they come out". Please extend your teachings on these statements.
And I appreciate so much you coming here to talk to us. It shows you are a very caring person.
Ima
Kaylee...
Oh, I am sorry. I meant to inquire of you what literature you are studying from?
Thanks...
Ima
Hi Kaylee,
Please re-read the last paragraph of Ezekial's post at 4:31 p.m.
Please think about the sources where you got your information that was the basis of you 3:15 p.m. post.
Then, let us know if your comments are based upon something that a "teacher" has told you and used certain scripture to support the lesson or if this is what you have gleaned from your own reading of the Bible.
Your post was scarily like some things that support prayer labyrinths and such.
Please do not be offended, am just looking to sources for certain beliefs.
"The world is full of lost people who have lost respect for us; why? BECAUSE WE DO NOT MEET WITH GOD."
Kaylee, Even using the words, ‘meet with God’ gives me a pretty good idea of where you are coming from. We do not ‘meet with God’. God is not an ‘appointment’. If we are saved, we are ‘Abiding in Christ’ every minute. Our lives should be constant 'prayers'. We are the branch being fed by the Vine every second. We still sin but are appalled by our sin. We want to obey. We yearn to obey and even in that yearning we still sin. But like we are taught in 1 John, we are ‘walking’ in the light which in the Greek suggests a ‘lifestyle’ of obedience.
"The greatest sin in our churches today is not what they do it is what we don't do; we call our selves people of prayer (a lie) saying that we pray is not praying!"
Kaylee, I am afraid you are parroting what you have been told at church. This is a classic ploy, I am afraid. Not obeying very obvious scripture is very serious. All the prayer in the world is not going to change anything without repentance and obedience.
"Anyone can say anything; but the truth is, those who really do meet with God, their attitudes and actions are full of compassion for one another when they come out."
Kaylee, it is an ACT of COMPASSION to warn people of false teachers and to contend for the faith. As a matter of fact, some have been burned at the stake for doing so. Was it uncompassionate for John to call out Dontrephes publicly? Paul to call out Peter in a letter for all to read for 2000 years?
"I may not be explaining this very well but my teacher can. I have met with the Lord myself and instead of anger toward any one I am concerned about everyone of us."
Who is angry? You confuse truth for anger. That is very common today with those who do not like what scripture teaches. See, there is NO salvation without true repentance. What happens when there is WILLFUL sin when one has knowledge of truth? (Hebrews 10) Please study this. It is very important.
We are seriously ignorant when it comes to true repentance. There is NO cheap grace like so many have been led to believe. I worry for you and those like you who really believe what you are saying. I believe this blog is most important in that aspect.
" We have made prayer a by-word and have wasted our breath. Some teach that it is no need to pray because God is going to do what He wants to do."
God is going to do whatever brings HIM GLORY and that should scare us. The fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom. We have dumbed down that verse to the point we barely understand what it really means. It means FEAR. REAL FEAR of HIS HOLY WRATH.
" It is a shame when, "Christians" are cutting one another down and telling the world this is what Jesus is all about!"
What IS Jesus all about? That is key to all of this for you. Please go back to the scriptures and study in depth. You do not need an earthly priest to understand scripture. Pray for the Holy Spirit to teach you. Read in Context…a whole book. Not just verses. NEVER READ A BIBLE VERSE. And remember, there were no numbered verses in the original text.
" It is OUR Lord who told us to pray but few people even grasp what true prayer really is all about."
Here is Jesus praying in John 17:
22The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
The 'unity' He is speaking of is the UNITY of TRUTH. ONE MIND IN HIM.
" It is obvious that God is not pleased with His people and how much longer will grace permit us to go on? The way things are going on in families and churches all across the nation; we could be on our last call to repentance."
Actually, Kaylee the TRUE church is doing very well. They are sold out to the truth of the Word. They are ready for the return of Christ and SOME are being persecuted for their beliefs as we speak.
"I will get the other Scripture ref. and post them later if you would like."
Yes, please do. Let us ONLY learn from scripture in context.
Grace and Peace.
Lin,
Your 5:30 post. Right on.
Thanks.
oc.
Gee I kinda really like my 40 lb Scofield.
Lin - I'm a pre-mill, pre-trib dispen.
If anyone wants to do a fantastic word study, use Psalm 18:1,2 and dig deep with each of the my (fill in the blank)(i.e. my strength) references.
Kaylee said, "I may not be explaining this very well but my teacher can."
Kaylee, you should look up to your teacher, and that's fine. However, it is vital that YOU be able to explain what you believe AND WHY. One hour per week of Sunday School and a couple hours per week of worship is not enough studying. There is a real problem today with people listening to what men say more then they listen to God. I think Lin did a great job pointing the dangers of this out.
You owe it to yourself and to Jesus to study scripture fervently and to find out for yourself what God says and what Jesus taught.
Excape said...
A former Bellevue staff "David S." now at GBC recently made this remark:
I wish Germantown Baptist didn't have bylaws.
I hope he was kidding and doesn't bring any ideas like that to GBC. Look what happened at Bellevue and Bellevue doesn't have bylaws or rather Bellevue doesn't use them.
8:28 PM, July 02, 2007
Intinction ...
any thoughts, comments on this?
Word verification: upchax. As in "Postings by trolls make me want to upchax."
Sister SOTL,
Thanks for the note. I saw both entries. It's history and was forgiven immediately. It is easy for any of us to get caught up in this thing and to generalize. My best to you and gmommy.
As NASS mentioned, the "Steve Gaines" motion at the SBC put ministers there on record speaking out against this kind of unholy travesty. It is not enough, but at least it wasn't the other way around (backing or rationalizing this kind of blatant sin)!
For those on the blog, remember that SG does not answer to other pastors or to the SBC. He will answer to Christ and should be accountable to the sheep entrusted to him.
The informed pastors and people I meet are not neutral when it comes to this. At BBC however, there seems to be a ministry of double-speak in full swing to spin, rewrite, and gloss over these months of agony for many long time BBC members.
God has surely seen. He has heard every conversation. In His time light and truth will illumine anything that anyone has attempted to hide. The "Achans" of our time will have to confess and give God the glory.
Junk: I AGREE! They make Nass troll so much the blog has to be put on moderation too...... gas is expensive you know!
25+ said, "For those on the blog, remember that SG does not answer to other pastors or to the SBC."
I know this but I guess the frustration comes from SG NOT being held accountable now. This virus is spreading, infecting many SBC churches and it seems like no one wants to step up and vaccinate.
Just frustrated. :(
The SBC is not the answer. Only a mighty work of the Holy Spirit can convict of sin and turn hearts towards God in repentance. That should be our prayer.
25+yrs@BBC said...
For those on the blog, remember that SG does not answer to other pastors or to the SBC. He will answer to Christ and should be accountable to the sheep entrusted to him.
When Paul met with the elders (pastors) from Ephesus (Acts 20), he said to them,
"Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears."
From this we can determine that an expected role of pastors is that they watch out for and speak out against other pastors who are in error. Although neither the SBC nor any Baptist church has authority over another Baptist church, the pastors do have an obligation to "police" themselves and hold their fellow pastors accountable. When pastors do not do this, they are failing in their duties to the larger flock of all God's sheep.
AOG: I agree. It's just hard for me to understand a large organization not taking care of a growing cancer.
I will comtinue to pray.
Junkster:
well said!!!
Thanks, SOTL. I like "Junkster", I think I'll try it for a while.
Well, this will chap a few folks, but in my opinion the SBC in some respects IS the cancer.
Ultimately the responsibility rests with the local congregation to do something about the cancer...not the SBC.
allofgrace said...
Well, this will chap a few folks, but in my opinion the SBC in some respects IS the cancer.
Uh oh .... as an old preacher I knews used to say, "Now you've done quit preachin' and gone to meddlin'!" :)
If we were Presbyterians we could take the issue to the Presbytery, the Synod, all the way up to the General Assembly...but we're not Presbyterians, we're Baptists...we believe in the autonomy of the local church.
AOG said: "in my opinion the SBC in some respects IS the cancer."
I've had that same thought too.
:(
Junk...
you wrote:
"From this we can determine that an expected role of pastors is that they watch out for and speak out against other pastors who are in error."
Response:
That has happened and is happening. That tune is getting old. MS has called on him to resign. From formal motion to widespread discussion, the SBC highlighted the failures at BBC without naming the church or pastor.
There is also something expected of the priesthood of believers at BBC... Frankly the majority has what they want. They will answer to the Lord Jesus for that. It does not merely fall upon pastors.
You wrote:
"Although neither the SBC nor any Baptist church has authority over another Baptist church, the pastors do have an obligation to "police" themselves and hold their fellow pastors accountable."
Response:
In what forum? Call on the Shelby Baptist Association to do more if you think it will help. They were not silent regarding Prescott Memorial...
Define "police"... be specific please. We do not have a pope. We do not have an office of the inquisition.
I understand your frustration. BBC was my church from the 1970s.
Some of the many variables of the BBC train wreck include:
1) A climate of trust in the former leadership and blindness to the possibility of someone becoming pastor who would not be as trustworthy set up the congregation.
2) A gradual (over decades) resignation of congregational oversight due to the above mentioned climate.
3) A gradual culture of “rubber-stamping” the leadership’s agenda.
4) Overt conditioning by the former leadership of the congregation to accept whoever the search committee put forward—enthusiastically and without question.
5) The sin of not taking “little sins” seriously.
6) Like leaven (yeast)—“little sins” expand where tolerated. The former pastor used to repeatedly say that “Sin will take you farther than you want to go. Keep you longer than you want to stay and cost you more than you want to pay.”
7) The spiritual principle of the formation of calloused hearts. The first time sin occurs it is sensed; but where it is tolerated it will not be sensed/identified as easily next time. Gradually dullness sets in.
8) Eventually, calloused, prideful toleration of sin leads to hardness of heart.
9) Here we are.
Pastors have spoken up. Pastors have condemned what happened at BBC. But the primary failure at BBC was a failure of the MEMBERSHIP. The priesthood of believers at Bellevue has what they voted for and retains the one they have protected against criticism from without and from within.
25+,
Amen..it's the congregation's responsibility to expose false teaching and teachers and remove the leaven.
This forum is turning into a place where the trolls are weeded out and so those who still have some fight left are shooting their allies.
As Ace used to say... That's sad.
Tonight I'd have to agree.
25+yrs@BBC,
I don't disagree with anything you said regarding the obligations of the membership of BBC or how things came to be as they are. But that doesn't negate the truth of what I said about the obligation of pastors to speak out (which is what I meant by "police" themselves) when they see serious error or sin in another pastor. I don't think the truths of the Scripture I referenced need any defense on my part. Personally, I've heard far too few pastors publicly speaking out about BBC or many of the problems common in SBC and evangelical life, but if that tune sounds old to you, you've evidently been listening to a different station than I have.
junkster, you are just not reading the right blogs....e-mail me and I will send you a list!!
25+yrs@BBC said...
This forum is turning into a place where the trolls are weeded out and so those who still have some fight left are shooting their allies.
Funny you should say that ... cuz that's exactly how your response to my post made me feel ... shot at for pointing out that more pastors don't fulfil their obligations.
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