During a recent meeting of a concerned group of BBC members with David Coombs and three other staff members, one of the things the members stressed was that Steve Gaines does not seem to demonstrate that he has a shepherd's heart nor does he seem to demonstrate love to the members in general.David Coombs asked what the pastor could do to demonstrate love. The members' answer was that there is no magic formula, that love demonstrates itself from a heart filled with the love of God.
So let's help Steve Gaines and David Coombs. What are we looking for in a pastor?
Thanks to "aslansown" for this topic idea.
733 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 733 Newer› Newest»Ima said...
And...have I missed something here? It isn't halloween...what is the deal with rolling yards in June? Or is that just a youth thing at Bellevue?
This was a year ago at a "Disciple Now" event for the youth - not sure what time of year it was.
I sent you an email! :)
Why,
If Bob S who is a Bellevue member and church consultant was filling the pulpit at my church with a man who embezzled money from his former church, call me a troublemaker if you wish but I wouldn't want him to preach at my church either.
Perhaps you are confusing troublemakers with people who stand for the truth.
Karen...
Yes...just read it.
Why ask Why?
Sister Lin,
You wrote:
"Are you saying that the reference to the 'angel' of the church in Ephesus (and so on) refers to the pastor of that particular church?"
Reply:
Yes.
On "angel of the church" in the letters in Revelation... consider MacArthur's own understanding.
"And to the angel [pastor] of the church in Pergamos write: These things saith He who hath the sharp sword with two edges."
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1440.htm
See his commentary for more on this. You will find this in most commentaries on Revelation.
"angel/Angel" simply means "messenger." It was used of human messengers and heavenly. The context is the key.
At Jerusalem the leaders of the churches in Jerusalem came together as the leaders of the house churches of Ephesus did at Miletus in Acts 20 to meet Paul.
You wrote:
"Ok, can you point me to the scripture that includes the office of 'Shepherd' and the qualifications separate from the eldership?"
Reply:
A pastor is an elder and is a bishop. All three titles are used interchangeably for the same office in the NT. Hence 1 Peter 5:1-4 describes elders shepherding (pastor) the flock for which they have "oversight" (from root for episcopos, bishop). Elders were to feed the flock (preach/teach the the Word).
Please read the article I cited above by Dr. Wring for more.
If Why posted and there wasn't a truthseeker to see the post, would he still be wrong, hateful and angry?
Fogmachine,
Good point! And may I add this: Lots of us "troublemakers" have been visiting GBC waiting to see whom they will choose for pastor. Because we are people of integrity, we will not be voting on this decision so if GBC decides on a pastor that I don't particularly care for (I'm not talking about anyone specifically!), then I'd be free to find another church with whom I am comfortable. So why, don't you worry about us troublemakers; we're fine without you.
Sister Lin,
This is from Friberg's Greek Lexicon. It is treated similarly in others [BAG, Liddel and Scott, etc.]. Notice 4th listed meaning below:
00034 angelos/ou( o` as one sent to tell or bring a message, messenger; (1) of pers. messenger, envoy, one sent (MK 1.2); (2) of divine messengers and agents of God angel (LU 2.26); (3) of demonic powers as Satan's messengers (evil) angel (MT 25.41); (4) specif. in RV 1.20, 2.1ff. prob. minister, one overseeing a group of believers, under Jesus' supervision, messenger.
Cakes said...
Why ask Why?
Cakes,
The capitol of Jabudie is Jabudie! :)
karen
Apologies to Diana Ross...
Ooh wah, ooh wah
Ooh wah, ooh wah
Ooh wah, ooh wah
Why do trolls like to blog?
Why do they rant each day?
And others just wish
they'd go away?
Why do they like to blog?
Why don't they see
their eye has a log?
Why do trolls like to blog?
Why do they like to blog?
Trolls play a losing game
To respond is a shame
I know, I did it, you see
Now the shame's on me!
Tell me why?
Tell me why?
Why do trolls like to blog?
Why do they rant each day?
And others just wish
they'd go away?
Why do they like to blog?
Why don't they see
their eye has a log?
Why do trolls like to blog?
Why do they like to blog?
Why, bless their hearts
Don't they just retreat?
For we know
They will reach defeat
Tell me why?
Tell me why?
Why do trolls like to blog?
Tell me why?
Tell me why?
Junk, I think it was the Rondells. But anyway,the song will never be the same again. Thanks a lot!
"angel/Angel" simply means "messenger." It was used of human messengers and heavenly. The context is the key."
I have checked 2 commentaries this afternoon and they say the same as you. I am trying to find something on David Reagan's site. He is an excellent scholar of Revelations and a source I have come to trust over the years. (You 'amills' will just have to look the other way on this one :o) I am a pre mill dispsy)
This is fascinating and one of those things that could be metaphorical in sense or interchangable...an angel is a messenger...yet the angels referred to in Rev 2-3 are physical messengers. Hmmmm...doing some more checking on this...
I have always found it fascinating that more of the Shepherds of the early churches were not named in the Epistles.
re: the TP incident and DG
when one of the girls told DG and her parents would not like her folling yards..DG just told her not to tell her parents!!! problem solved!!!
Go to a church activity and have the pastor's wife encourage children to be evasive with their parents and to do things that their parents would not approve of.
Yeah, that's a good life lesson to learn..
john the baptist said:
Why is so full of hate, anger.
He quotes scripture and doesn't apply it to itself...just like his mentor.
sotl says:
Hmmm, could they be one in the same?
He certainly seems to be adamant about the yelling that took place in the hosue that night. How would he know such details? HMMMMM?
BTW, I also was told by a girl that was there that he yelled at the girls.
SOTL,
It wasn't just the parents - the Youth Department told the kids that no rolling would be permitted.
What's this I hear about RICK WARREN coming to GBC??????????//
I don't get it...why run Sam Shaw off if you are just going to bring in Rick Warren???????
And also Rupert Murdock..who's that? He's supposed to be coming, too.
This is crazy.
SOTL:
How does a pastor show the sheep that he loves them? This is not a trick question, I would genuinely like to hear what you honestly think.
SOTL,
Where are you hearing this? Rupert Murdock runs a media empire, but I forget which one.
Shepherd – Pastor - Leader
Leadership is influence – not power, authority or rank (Mark 10:42-43). Jesus took the form of a servant for our sakes (Philippians 2:7-8).
A true leader commands respect rather than demanding it. Demanding respect is always a failed effort. One must live a life before others that will command respect.
In order to be a good leader, you first have to become a good follower – a follower of Jesus Christ.
Found this:
The Image of Leadership by John Schoolland
A leader's a man who commands much respect,
But due to the natures of all,
He's only as good as the image he casts
In the mirror that hangs on the wall.
He usually sees what he wants, and no more,
He's afraid to look deep in his soul.
He doesn't consider himself as at fault,
But wants others to help reach his goal.
When failures arise he blames it on all
Who failed to help or take part,
"They never did what they were told, " he would say,
"they haven't the skill or the art."
What kind of a leader are you going to be - the kind who thinks he is the best?
Or will you be one of the very few greats
Who attributes success to the rest.
Don't fail to look at the help you received
From parents and friends all your life.
They comforted you, praised you, and gave you the push
To help you through trouble and strife.
Another whose help you should never forget,
Who gave you your life and His love,
The One to whom all of our assets are known
Is the One whom we pray to above.
Be humble in all of your leadership traits.
Thank those who have made you so tall.
Be human to others, consider them too,
Then smile through the glass on the wall.
I've been following the goings-on at BBC for several months, years actually....and I can only imagine how powerless all of you feel. This new model, so prevalent in the SBC, of the pastor as CEO and "mover and shaker" robs the family of faith of its freedom to seek together the will of God for the church. No need to ask God - you have "God's man" to tell you.
I am a minister in another state. I've been reading SG's "outlines" on your website. If I stood in the pulpit and "preached" that drivel, the members of the church would call me out for being lazy.
I am a minister in another state. I've been reading SG's "outlines" on your website. If I stood in the pulpit and "preached" that drivel, the members of the church would call me out for being lazy.
This is what we told David Coombs. His response was "Not so".
Just catching up - missed a lot I see.
Had to post my 2 cents.
Have been slammed working on a transacion and suffering from acute diverticulitis at the same time. Am better now.
Note to self: do not eat lots of Kiwi.
oc,
I know Diana Ross did a version of it, and Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers, and so did the Beach Boys, but I don't know about the Rondells. Could be, I just don't know. But I'm sure my version will not be as enduring...
"Junk"
P.S. Word verification: speekilk
kerygma,
Unfortunately, "drivel" characterizes a great deal of what passes for preaching in pulpits all across the country in our time. It has produced an anemic faith at best...and a false one at worst, along with a false confidence.
"Go to a church activity and have the pastor's wife encourage children to be evasive with their parents and to do things that their parents would not approve of."
My youth group growing up must have been total nerds. We spent our time singing to residents of nursing homes and doing chores for shut in's. The worst thing we did was to sneak into the kitchen at camp and eat the left over cake before the boys go ahold of it.
Junk,
I like your version better.
25+,
Thanks for the references. :o)
imaresistor said...
Idolatry has many forms...worship of a pastor is one of them.
I'm reminded of the Latin phrase "Habemus Papem". I can see the white smoke now.
Lin said...
My youth group growing up must have been total nerds. We spent our time singing to residents of nursing homes and doing chores for shut in's. The worst thing we did was to sneak into the kitchen at camp and eat the left over cake before the boys go ahold of it.
More HATE and DECEIT! And spewing cake!! This blog is filled with nothing but BAKED GOODS and FROSTING!!!! Speeeeeeewwwww!
P.S. Word verification: pdbarb. I can see it now, "New, from Mattel, it's Purpose Driven Barbie and Seeker Ken, with realistic evangelist hair!"
"I am a minister in another state. I've been reading SG's "outlines" on your website. If I stood in the pulpit and "preached" that drivel, the members of the church would call me out for being lazy."
Proof texting. Can you imagine trying to catch up by studying each verse in context if you were a new Christian? Well, most don't so the pastor is safe finding verses to fit the premise of the 'topic' and the 'audience' believes it.
Not only lazy but quite scary.
Junk, seriously, if we are honest there has been 'spewing' on this blog. Here are the instances just from me alone over various comments:
1. Earl Grey tea
2. Decaf Latte venti skinny w/splenda
3. Bigelow White Oriental tea
That is a lie that I have EVER spewed cake on this blog. I HAVE spewed over a few of 'Cakes' comments, though. See above.
"I can see it now, "New, from Mattel, it's Purpose Driven Barbie and Seeker Ken, with realistic evangelist hair!"
Junk, you mean like this...
http://www.alittleleaven.com/2007/06/move_over_barbi.html
Lin,
Here's the link.
And here's the matching Dream Church!
Listen people, about this watered down preaching stuff. Get real. It's your fault. You don't allow the pastor near enough study time, you are always sending him somewhere else to make money for himself, to promote a book, etc. You have him so busy he can't preach on Wednesdays. You send him to other churches in order for him to bad mouth your own church,(and he has done a great job of it). He has to spend time dodging and defending various criminal and moral failures. He has to worry about his personal safety also, because there are many 15 year old girls just waiting to assassinate him. Please, don't you understand? Have you no mercy? All of this preparation takes a lot of time out of the good pastor's day.
And you dare to expect meat instead of milk. Shame.Hmmmm.
Wow!!!!!!!!!!
Reading the bit about Donna Gaines taking the girls in the youth groups to TP a house makes me wonder if we will see Steve out one night leading the boys through the neighborhood holding foodfights while wearing togas!!!!!
Now excuse me while I hurl at the image of Gaines in a toga!
Hey, am I the only one who noticed Bellevue's new sign on Germantown Parkway?
And as a follow up to my 5:38 post, why don't ya'll pay the dude enough so that he doesn't have to do 'odd jobs' in order to supplement his salary? How much are you paying the poor fellow? Oh yeah, that's right. You don't even know. You aren't allowed to.
I had a few BIG lessons/rules for my children that I began very early.
#1 - if someone says..."don't tell your mommy" ANYTHING!
They are not safe ...run and tell mommy right away!!.
They always did.
This is significant. Unhealthy at the very least!
JTB: Just got home...your 3:28 post is PRICELESS.
I vote yes.....
At the church I attended last Sunday,I went to a visitor's class...all filled with BBC people by the way.
The pastor passed out the budget and all the missionaries and things were broken down...
with the amount next to their names and the staff were lumped in one number.
I asked very nicely, IF I were a member,would the salaries for staff and ministers be open. The pastor didn't hesitate...
the answer was Yes!
I have been watching over some of the entries in this blog. What is boils down to is this. Steve Gaines is not a man of God, but a man of the world. Its perfectly obvious that Steve's intentions are to use Bellevue as either a stepping stone to move on or as a way to write books to make more money, to speak to make more money, or any other method to make more money.
The bottom line to Gaines must in black ink and in big numbers. He has turned a place of worshipped in the the Ringling Brothers Circus.
Alas too many people will not stick up for a church that they have grown to love over many years, including some of my own family.
To blindly follow unholy men is as bad as nailing Christ to the cross yourself.
Justin said,
To blindly follow unholy men is as bad as nailing Christ to the cross yourself.
oc says:
Justin, I didn't follow unholy men, but I did nail my Lord to the cross.
Just sayin'.
oc
kerygma: Thank you for joining us. I have a serious question. Why aren't SG's friends stepping in, privately or publicly, to try to help him? Why aren't pastors in the SBC aghast at what is happening within some of our churches and standing together to "get the car back on the road?"
gmommy said...
At the church I attended last Sunday,I went to a visitor's class...all filled with BBC people by the way.
The pastor passed out the budget and all the missionaries and things were broken down...
with the amount next to their names and the staff were lumped in one number.
I asked very nicely, IF I were a member,would the salaries for staff and ministers be open. The pastor didn't hesitate...
the answer was Yes!
6:50 PM, June 29, 2007
If I may ask gmommy, what church was this?
OC:
Allow me to clarify my statement. All mankind nailed Christ to the cross due to their sin.
I am merely saying that Gaines actions are not of a spiritual man that nailed Christ to the cross for the sake of purification but as a vile Roman who laughed and mocked Christ in his last hours.
Also, my statement is not aimed as an attack on anyone here. Its aimed at those who follow Gaines around and say Yes Sir to all this garbage that is being allowed to happen to that church.
There is at least the good news that all men who allowed this things to occur will have be held responsible. That is a situation I know I wouldn't want to be in before God.
Lin: You've got mail.
:)
Justin,
Meant nothing by it. Just owning up to what I've done, brother.
oc.
But Justin,
My sin laughed, and spit, and mocked, and shredded His flesh, and tortured His soul. Then He cried out in anguish, but also in victory, 'It is finished!'.
I might as well have been right there when it happened, because I did it.
And He did it. For me. For you.
The new sign on Germantown Parkway at Bellevue Parkway:
Here and here.
They were still working on it today. It doesn't look finished.
Justin: You bring up a good point. You said, "Alas too many people will not stick up for a church that they have grown to love over many years, including some of my own family." The question no one can seem to answer is.....why haven't they stuck up for BBC?
Yeah, I saw that sign on the ground yesterday. I figured since that area has built up so much and the road is obscured by car dealerships and stores, they wanted to be sure everyone could finds their way on.
Sadly, no one seems to have any backbone. I mean, seriously, tell these jokers off and if they kick you out, so be it. Chances are you are going to LEAVE the church due to these goobers, so what if they kick you out. And if they (Bellevue Mafia) call the cops, let them call the cops.
All you have to do at that point is leave in a quiet and orderly fashion at the request of the officer. However, while you wait for the cops to arrive ask them if they considered the same action for their own members of the cliche who have done far worse than simply tell them they are no better than Judas in the eyes of God.
Anyone who is a God fearing man that would call the cops on a member of the church who is upset due to their tithes, prays, etc. being misused, is not a God fearing man.
Its simply strong arming their beliefs on the weak minded who are not strong enough to take a stand. Being intimidated into not speaking your mind is wrong. Its your right as an American. Check your constitution. Enough of this politically correct we don't want to offend someone crap.
Take a stand or take a seat. Its that simple.
Justin,
You need to make your profile visible. It's a requirement to post here.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
NBBCOF,
Issue resolved. I thought it WAS visible, silly Safari thought otherwise.
Justin says:
Sadly, no one seems to have any backbone. I mean, seriously, tell these jokers off and if they kick you out, so be it.
And Justin says:
Its simply strong arming their beliefs on the weak minded who are not strong enough to take a stand. Being intimidated into not speaking your mind is wrong.
And oc says:
Please, I'm losing it. Someone explain this to Justin. Please.
OC,
Seeing as you are losing it, explain to me what exactly you think I am missing?
No watching, you aren't the one I had in mind to explain this to Justin.
Just sayin'.
oc.
watching said:
oc
multi pardons,
who did you have in mind?
oc says: You going away.
Justin: Are you saying those left at BBC aren't standing for truth or are you saying truthseekers (those on this blog) haven't stood for truth?
I thought you meant the first, but maybe there's some confusion....could you please clarify?
Thanks. :)
Watch,
I am speaking in a blanket statement. concernedSBCer said: "The question no one can seem to answer is.....why haven't they stuck up for BBC?"
That is indeed a good question. I was drawing answers for my comment from activities that has been going on with the Bellevue mafia.
I KNOW many people have made their voices heard.
I am merely expressing myself in what I think are issues. I do not guarantee they are correct, nor do I offer a warranty with them. I am not trying to upset people. I am just trying to deal with the series of events.
Justin, thanks for the clarification.
:)
justin,
Thank you for posting....we agree!
There ARE people that have been speaking out....at different times of course,
and this forum is one way for us to speak the truth.
Eventually...people find their way to the blog after being TOLD how evil it is by the leadership.
We hope to make people think and question and get in their Bibles!
When you see more of the Whys and jons and whatever name they come here with....
we are making leadership or their followers uncomfortable.
The BBC we knew is gone But we're still speaking out!!!!
Justin, Have you read enough of the blog to get a sense of the series of events, or are you just beginning to get a grasp on it? It's pretty overwhelming, for sure.
concernedSBCer and others,
I am in no position to say anyone in this forum has not gone to find the truth nor has no spoke outloud about this mess. Nor am I here to judge you. Most of what I have seen in this forum is very positive. Its good to see so many people upset and trying to end the misery that these issues are bringing to many people.
I am however in a position to say that about people I know personally that go to Bellevue who I have heard apologize for the turn of events or flat out can not accept some of these events as fact, no matter how much damning evidence has been presented.
Once again, no one in this forum needs to believe I am venting about their actions or inactions. I am stating what I have witnessed firsthand.
Watching,
You know, its interesting you keep bringing up this pedophile stuff over and over. It leads me to the conclusion either you were abused yourself or you have some sort of skeleton in your closet.
A church no matter how grand we think it is, still has humans in it. Those humans all have issues that some of us would prefer be left unsaid.
I think that the series of events to lend to the ousting of this pedophile to happen while Gaines in in charge is merely a small crack in the overall Gaines machine. It has lend us to want to know what more lies underneath. It seems to include much more than having PW and his many many issues. Just seems odd how the PW thing is just one of many more upsetting discoveries.
Justin,
I follow you, and you are on point.
Justin,
"Watchinghissssssstory" has been banned from this forum but continues to drop in. It's our policy here to ignore trolls, of which he's now considered one.
Justin,
nothing personal. I am backing away for me, until I am sure of what you are saying.
oc.
lily, mail me.
oc.
watchinghissssssstory,
This forum is no longer open to YOU.
Okay, back to Lily - aka Lily pad, still watering and always the Buzzard.
It seems that Justin is commenting from the 10,000 foot view, but has a connection that is closer.
Remember Warriors of Truth, we do tend to be hyper-sensitive.
Note to Justin: We are not to feed the trolls. If you do not know who the trolls are, please read up on past posts.
The new signs would have been a bit more (not much) visable if they were done up in neon green and an orange border..... Maybe someone with connections could get that message to the front office?
Serious Blog Patrol on tonite - it's a good thing. Thank you NASS.
Okay,
Where is everybody??? Are you guys bowling again? Why was I not invited? Too good???????
Lily,
Go outside tonight and look up. I think you'll see the explanation for the recent increase in troll activity.
References here and here.
Nobody let Karen see these signs, they will scare her!
Kind of reminds me of the huge giant that was at a supermarket in Whitehaven many, many years ago..I think it was, Giant Foods.
These signs look like a robot with giant column legs about to take off walking.
Who in the world is in charge of advertising/marketing or whatever they are calling it now at corporate Bellevue.
alanstown,
YOu asked me what I thought would be the characteristics of a good leader.
I'm not sure how to answer that, but I can tell you what is NOT a good shepherd.
A good sheperd does NOT embezzle
$700,000 from his church ( Claude Thomas) and then stand up in front of his sheep as though he has ANY credibility left.
A good shepherd does NOT enable a sexual pervert to roam the halls of a church, be around children, unchecked, without giving ONE care to the thousands of innocent children and women that he preys on.
Claude Thomas has already spoken at GBC once and is now scheduled to come back for 3 more times. Who brought him here? The common denominator, Bob Sorrell, who was also on the BBC " search" committee.
It's just more of the " good ole boy" network within the SBC. Bob Sorrell has stated that he has spoken with the lawyer FOR Claude Thomas and his lawyer tells him that there is nothing to it, (DUH)
An independent accounting firm found that he had embezzled $700,000. Why not speak to THEM????
I'm beginning to think that other than MIke Spradlin, Danny ( at Faith Baptist) and Dr. Adrian Rogers, there are no good preachers anymore.
I knew that Dr. R. loved me. He did not even know me. I just knew it. He was a fine man, a true shepherd.
Oooh, I forgot. I was going to mention that earlier. How fabulous is that Moon? I am a Moon nut, not to be confused with Moonbats. My fascination goes waaaay back to early childhood on the farm with my grandparents who planted by the mooon.
Gone outside to gaze upon His wonders.
ezekiel wrote:
"The new signs would have been a bit more (not much) visable if they were done up in neon green and an orange border..... Maybe someone with connections could get that message to the front office?"
Heh heh. It is rather... ummm... flashy, isn't it? I'm thinking it's going to be lit from the inside.
OK..I'm nervous...
I'm not having any trouble understanding where Justin is coming from....seems clear.
AND I feel really calm.
Does the moon have the opposite affect on normally emo people????????
CORRECTION CORRECTION:
Robert Murdoch and Rick Warren ARE NOT going to GBC.
Someone reported that information to me and it is incorrect, HOWEVER, I have requested that NASS post the article about Rick Warren and Robert Murdoch, because I don't know how to link it. :)
Please forgive my mistake...It was a mistake of the mind and not the heart, or was it a mistake of the heart and not the mind? I dunno, but ' sorry bout that!
SOTL said "Bob Sorrell has stated that he has spoken with the lawyer FOR Claude Thomas and his lawyer tells him that there is nothing to it, (DUH)"
Reply:
Having worked in the field of law for 14+years, that statement of Claude Thomas' attorney is not something I would hang my hat on - it's just the typical legalese in these situations.
Hey lily,
I'm here. No,we aren't bowling tonight. (Not that I know anyway, unless I hadn't been invited also).
You are a pretty good bowler, but I'm not afraid of you.
Guess it's you and I. Which lane you want?
Ah, yes. Our old friend, the moonbat (barking mode).
If the new signs are going to be lit from the inside, are they going to resemble the disco ball - nightclub effect that one finds at i2?
Amy, Charis,
Concerning Claude Thomas at GBC, a couple of questions.
1)Is the "position paper" known to be fact?
2)Any other source of verification?
3)Did the effort by Paige Patterson to get Claude on staff at SWBTS happen or did it derail?
Another question for anyone else. Why, when we sit atop the MABTS, do we have trouble finding pastors?
I would think that there are many ordained Baptist pastors out there, men of God, called to preach the WORD. Men that would gladly accept an invitation to preach at GBC. Get resumes and cycle them through. Pay them $50,000 per year and prorate. $50,000/208 services per year. Ask the congregation for a thumbs up or down and hire the best one. Put him on 3 months probation and if He doesn't work out, let him go and get another one....Look for the least among them.....The one without the flashy smile and the TV performance grin. Trust God to put the right man behind the pulpit.
If MABTS can't produce a number of folks that could properly divide the WORD then we need to get rid of Dr. Spradlin.......
If folks want to run it like a business, run it like a business. Pay for production, reward performance and penalize lack of it.
That moonbat barking could cause nightmares!
SOTL
Regarding your retraction:
Guess you can ignore my mail....:)
The only thing missing on the sign is mirrored disco ball.......
SOTL,
Your link. Must I do everything? LOL!
Wow! RW shaved that stuff off his chin! I didn't recognize him.
Hey all, I'm here!
Hi Lily, sorry you've not been feeling well.
:(
ooooooh,SOTL,
We want to be sensitive to the good shepherds still out there that don't have mega mansions mortgaged beyond their worth!
those who work another job and pastor,
those who drive a distance to pastor the flocks,
those CALLED and grateful to serve!
those who don't have country club memberships,
Those who spend time in the word and are STILL CONVICTED by God's word,
those that don't use elementary outlines because they WANT the flock to mature spiritually!
those who still weep at the holiness of God,
Those who still fear God and long to be pure before the Lord,
those who still take the time to email and comfort the little rag tag group of peons for Jesus!
zeke,
I think that square hole underneath is where the smoke comes out.
gmommy stated:
"those who don't have country club memberships"
Reply: Yes indeed, that would be a positive qualification for a Shephard.
What does a Good Shepherd need with a country club membership? I don't get it. What does that perk imply?
gmommy says:
those who work another job and pastor,
those who drive a distance to pastor the flocks,
those CALLED and grateful to serve!.......
oc says:
Yeah, I love those guys. Used to be one.
Piglet: On it's way...........
I heard someone say the other day they met Bro R in River something spa....not a country club.
Bro R was working out...not being cool with the CC boys.
Deuteronomy 30: 16 - 17
16) In that I command thee this day to love the Lord they God, to walk in His Ways, and to keep His commandments, and His statues, and His judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17) But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shall be drawn away and worship other gods,and serve them..
God says that if obey Him, walk with Him, keep His commandments that He will bless us (we will be pleasing to Him).
But in vs.17 He says something very important, " But if your heart turn away, so that thou will not hear"...
When our hearts turn away from God...when we take our eyes and affection off of Jesus, this verse says we become deaf...we cannot hear!!! Spiritually speaking, we cannot hear God when He speaks to us. Then we wonder why we can't hear Him. Is there any wonder why people fall for all this junk that is presented in the Lords Name??
When a Pastor seeks money, fame, praise, things of this world...he has let his heart turn away, then he cannot hear God's voice. He will go through the motions, but he hasn't heard from God because he is spiritually deaf.
This happens to deacons, lay person...everyone.
Let us return to our first love, Jesus, so that we will please Him and will be able to hear God's precious voice.
It all goes back to pride. When men are more focused on themselves than God, the trouble begins. There's nothing really wrong with a CC membership, in my opinion....it's your attitude about that CC that makes the difference....a humble and thankful spirit...love for others above yourself.
A pastor does not cause CONSTANT controversy.
No need for Trolls with one chorus hate filled songs.
There is one right there...JTB, do you have your application in?
Concerned stated that there is nothing wrong with a CC membership. This is true. However, I would rather have a Shepherd who focused more on the his responsbility to the sheep than a CC membership. The Good Shepherds who come to mind would not have had the slightest interest in a CC membership.
Additionally, the Good Shepherds who come to mind would not have had the slightest interest in a CC membership, as they would have NOTHING in common with the other members and would not perceive CC membership as a way to "feed the sheep".
Disclaimer: I do not post negatively against CC membership as I have been a member of more than one and loved playing golf at many CCs. It's about the Shepherd and the Sheep.
BAAAAAAAAAA
NASS!!!!!!
I am getting really nauseated!
Get the motor running!!!!!
lily said
,Concerned stated that there is nothing wrong with a CC membership. This is true. However, I would rather have a Shepherd who focused more on the his responsbility to the sheep than a CC membership. The Good Shepherds who come to mind would not have had the slightest interest in a CC membership
reply:
If I may, I think that concernedsbcer was saying that it is ok for the pastor to accept the membership, as long as he adheres to James chapter 2:1-13.
That is my understanding.
Just sayin.
oc.
I think it's about attitude of the heart. Just thinkin'.
oc.
I just got my Messenger today and I see Johnny Hunt is going to be speaking. I guess Hunt taking Gaines off that speaking engagement a few months ago meant nothing.
Lily: I agree, it's not what I would hope, but it's not scripturally wrong, per se....... But I do see your point and agree.
:)
ezekial said...
I would think that there are many ordained Baptist pastors out there, men of God, called to preach the WORD. Men that would gladly accept an invitation to preach at GBC. Get resumes and cycle them through. Pay them $50,000 per year and prorate. $50,000/208 services per year. Ask the congregation for a thumbs up or down and hire the best one. Put him on 3 months probation and if He doesn't work out, let him go and get another one....Look for the least among them.....The one without the flashy smile and the TV performance grin. Trust God to put the right man behind the pulpit.
Are you serious? You don't honestly think that the only thing a pastor does is preach a predetermined number of sermons, do you? I cannot even count the number of nights that my husband sometimes with me by his side have sat all night at the hospital when our people need us. My husband, who is seriously underappreciated, works more hours and works harder than most people I know for very little reward.
Pastors wife.
Yep. There it is. A real pastor.
Apparently there is plenty of time to have a CC membership if you do not preach on Wednesday and speaking for hire. Just my view.
Though, as you guys have pointed out, there is a certain obligation you have as a pastor or in this case speaker, to your flock, and I am failing to see that obligation being fulfilled.
Pastor's Wife: That is the difference between a pastor and a preacher. We need PASTORS...one's that love and shepherd their flock. Someone earlier posted that with the right calling and love and leading by the Holy Spirit, anyone is a good preacher. We need scripturally strong PASTORS.
Bless your husband. And you.
:)
Justin, I would agree with that.
Three prong post:
1 - OC, yes it would be okay for a pastor to accept a CC membership if it was offered in the package deal. However, I do not want my tithes and offerings going to a CC membership for anyone.
2 - Attend Bellevue Sportsmen's organizational meeting July 15.
Where did this come from? Is it for mem only?
3 - to Pastorswife: Bless you and your Shepherd husband.
Pastor's Wife...I feel ya pain. I am thankful my wife stands by me in the tough times. In fact, she teaches me a lot about serving others.
Bellevue Sportsmen's organizational meeting -Is it for mem only?
Mem = men, members, whatever, it's a typo.
I wouldn't know what to do with a CC membership. While what I do hardly passes for Golf, my survival and looking for a needle in a haystack skills have been sharpened by balls hit in the woods.
Who really has that much time to spend at a CC anyway? Waste of money in my opinion.
lily,
I agree that your tithe shouldn't go to the pastor's entertainment so to speak.
I was thinking in a completely different mind set. My post wasn't about the money, it was about the attitude of the heart.
I think we are in agreement. Just that I may not be clear.
oc.
Sheep, I am heading to Kentucky early in the morning to pick up my wife and son who have been visiting her family for the past month. She usually does that once a year or so. I sure miss them.
Please pray for me as I travel.
Thanks!
JTB,
Glory! We're praying!
Hey! Maybe they will offer a "Homemakers" organization
to go along with the Sportsman organization....oh! or maybe a Beauty Secrets organization!
Piglet could bring the hairspray!!!!
SOTL could teach us how to properly wear a tiara.
"Are you serious? You don't honestly think that the only thing a pastor does is preach a predetermined number of sermons, do you? I cannot even count the number of nights that my husband sometimes with me by his side have sat all night at the hospital when our people need us. My husband, who is seriously underappreciated, works more hours and works harder than most people I know for very little reward."
Oh, Pastor's wife...you are talking about a REAL pastor.
My former mega church pastor had a specific number of sermons he preached in a year. As time went on...they became fewer and fewer. He was very busy with media interviews, golfing trips, etc, though.
He had 2 junior pastors who did the rest. Yet, this preaching schedule ONLY included Sunday Morning. He did not 'do' Sunday night (no church) or 'Wed night (programs, small groups).
He also did a specific amount of Sat morning bible studies in a year and had another pastor who also did a certain amount.
He did NOT have to go to the hospital and stuff...there were ministers on staff for that stuff.
He had an office on the 5th floor that you had to go through a keyed pad and 2 different entrances to get to. If you ever made it up the elevator and through the locked doors, and past the first key pad...you had 3 secretaries to get past. To get to his office you had to go through his private Library bigger than my living room and Conference room.
Heard enough?
Oh, and his wife was one of the directors on staff at a very nice salary...as is his son.
They DO take care of their own. Just not others.
Did I mention all the books he wrote? Well, he had plenty of time for it! Considering he had a staff or researchers and graphic designers, video production people, etc, working on sermon illustrations, jokes and overhead presentation.
Nice salary, too.
And to think our Savior had no where to lay His head.
Let me say right now...I certainly appreciate your husband. I have seen the dark side.
Lily and SOTL: I've always wanted to know how.....
;)
Okay NASS, master of finding the right pictorials.
Where is the pic of me with a tiara and an ankle holster, belt slide, or shoulder holster.
If you can find it, I'll make it into my personal stationary.
I'll say anything to keep from resonding to the troll.
Gmommy said
Hey! Maybe they will offer a "Homemakers" organization
to go along with the Sportsman organization....oh! or maybe a Beauty Secrets organization!
Piglet could bring the hairspray!!!!
10:54 PM, June 29, 2007
Piglet says:
Well, only if I'm not on duty patrolling the church parking lot with my bat. :)
Lily! That's the perfect combination!!! Count me in!
Piglet can just carry her baseball bat!
Piglet! You beat me to it!!!!
Okay, too many typos - thought process begining to wonder in an aimless direction - word verification harder to read - time to go to bed.
Goodnite all.
Pastorswife - you and your husband sound like the REAL thing. I will pray God's blessings to you both.
Lily wrote:
"SOTL could teach us how to properly wear a tiara."
True, but let's not forget we have a real credentialed beauty queen who could teach the finer points of... that. (See display case in the west foyer for details.) Or this.
jtb:
what part of KY are you coming to?
and to Lin as well as others: we have seen the dark side too, but we have a perspective that some of you do not have. on staff for a while at a church where the pastor fell off the cliff; but have seen the dark side of congregations as well
Pastors Wife: Can you elaborate?
pastorswife said...
jtb:
what part of KY are you coming to?
JTB: Mount Vernon...near Renfro Valley.
Know where I am talking about?
Lily,
Your first point on your last post is the very thing I was speaking out against in one of my first posts, in regards to a lot of this being about the money. I do not think, as you also agree with, that tithe should ever go towards a CC membership. But, seeing as its speak for hire, let him use his extra earnings to go and be at a CC. But for us, the people who bear the financial burdens this guy is causing, to supply any minister within this church a membership that I myself can not even afford is ridiculous.
I am all for a membership at a CC. But this has to be within reason and within context.
I think I was misunderstood with my comment about CC. I was saying if a pastor belonged to a CC, it was his business but I wouldn't necessarily say it was outright wrong because his priorities would determine that. I never said anything about the church paying for one.....I believe that would not be in accordance with being a good steward of God's funds. I'm sorry if I've been confusing.
"...but have seen the dark side of congregations as well"
No doubt. It is part of the job description.
Pastorswife,
Yes, I am serious. Your very own post tells us why you do it. It obviously is not about the money. It appears that you do it because you love your sheep.
I can't find any place where Peter or John's salary are mentioned. For that matter any of the first 12. Paul was very careful to support his own way.
Your last statement bothers me. I would think that the reward you are storing up in heaven far exceeds anything anyone could pay you on earth.
The guys I think we need to look for are the guys that have a message and a burning desire to deliver it to any one that will listen. The guys that just love people. Love them enough to give their life for them.....
After all, it is a calling....not an occupation. Right?
Having said that, I listened to a preacher on the radio just this morning, preaching out of Gal 6 and some others. We, the congregation that you serve are to provide for your material needs in a manner that frees you from any other work, the need to do anything else to provide for your needs, so that you can sit up all night when your flock needs you, study all night to be able to properly divide the WORD. Reliable, safe housing, transportation. Good food and retirement provisions .......education for your kids....What ever you need. Not necessarily what ever you want.
If your congregation lives and provides for their family on an average income of say.....$50,000 per year. What is the justification for telling them that it will take $100,000 to meet your needs? $200,000?
At what point does pride and arrogance rear its ugly head? Do you think that you will have the same attitude toward God when you make $200,000 per year as you did when you were making $30,000 and wondering where the next tank of gas or the next bag of groceries is coming from?
Praise God that there are folks out there like you. That care about your flock. Care enough to sacrifice your time, energy, emotions and everything else that goes into the calling!
All that I am saying when I use $50,000 is that it looks cheap to me. It obviously does to you as well. But it comes back to what we are looking for. Are we looking for a $500,000 preacher that only preaches one sermon a week and has 30 ministers on staff to do the sitting that you talk about. Or are we looking for a humble servant? I bet we wind up with what the search committee is looking for. Maybe that is what takes so long......finding a $500,000/ yr humble servant appears to be rather difficult to do. Probably not a lot of those out there. Give me the guy that would pay to preach any day. As strange as it seems, I bet there are some watching.
I don't really care to elaborate, we have chosen to move on..although I do understand your hurt, and I believe that arrogance in the pulpit in one of our biggest problems in the church today.
Lin, my children being attacked is NOT part of the job description. Just because my husband chose to follow God's call does not mean that congregants have the right to treat our family any way they choose.
Here's a ministry concept that could be helpful to BBC and other churches...
Christian Accountability Network
From the website:
The Christian Accountability Network was founded in early 2007 to provide balanced Biblical accountability to America’s prominent pastors and teachers regarding their teaching and life.
This website will eventually grow into resources where Christians can find “Report Cards” on the most popular teachers and books as well a get information on finding churches in their local area that are still committed to sound Biblical teaching rather than being ‘seeker-sensitive’.
Ez, you have mail.
Let me ask you all this:
Do you not think a membership in a country club to be a bit too 'worldly' for a pastor. I always try to balance something like this with our Lord, Jesus Christ. Do any of you really think that if He walked the earth today, he would have a membership in a country club? And are we not to be Christlike? And what about a pastor...he above all should strive to be Christlike wouldn't you say? I am of the opinion that our priorities have gotten increcibly out of line. Should true Christians have memberships in country clubs? Think about it.
"Lin, my children being attacked is NOT part of the job description. Just because my husband chose to follow God's call does not mean that congregants have the right to treat our family any way they choose."
ooops. I thought you were referring to the garden variety jerks in every congregation. Only low lifes go after the children. I am again assuming you mean 'verbally' attacking your children? I am just miss 'assume' tonight. Better stop...I am getting in trouble and insulting this poor woman!! "Forgive me"
junk...
Thank you for providing us with this website. I had just this afternoon read about Chris Rosebrough. I am thankful for men/women like him who stand for truth. Pray many more will take a stand for Christ! Many are wobbly on their feet for fear or persecution in taking a stand...
Ima
Children should NEVER be part of the equation, on either side. They should be off limits for all.
that's okay...
By the way, just as a way of introduction, I have been following your situation because we have met SG several times and we honestly we shocked at the bone-head decisions he was making. I really do understand your frustration and pain, but I would caution about making broad comments about pastors. There really are more good guys than bad. The bad ones just get the press...kind of like the squeaky wheel gets the grease(I guess with the exception of you guys). Pastors work hard and it is hard work.
"Should true Christians have memberships in country clubs? Think about it."
My jet setting brother tried to explain this to me. He said that he and his wife were the only 'Christian' influences at their country club. He said the same thing about the golfing trips to Hawaii, etc.
It is the old 'fish on the car' syndrome. We think we can 'Christianize' everything. If they see we are Christians, and we are cool, they will want to be one, too! It just does not work that way. We end up being like the world, not the other way around.
Not a lot of taking up the cross in that view.
...'Christians' don't want to be 'of' the world. We don't care if we are accepted. We expect NOT to be accepted.
Night all......off I go to dream of hair spray and baseball bats, tiaras, trolling motors and bowling....
Sleep well, friends.
Love to you all!
:)
"Pastors work hard and it is hard work."
I grew up with REAL pastors and I know exactly what you mean.
But we are seeing a trend with mega church pastors and famous Christian leaders that is very scary.
I am asking my blog friends to pray for this pastor's wife.
I will pray tonight and add her in my prayer journal.
:)
Lin, piglet.....you've got mail...
offline this time....
"see" you all tomorrow!
Lin said, "We expect NOT to be accepted."
Reply: And sometimes, that jumps out of the closet and grabs us doesn't it! It gives "coming out of the closet" a new meaning doesn't it! :)
Pastor's wife will be included in my prayers...her and all the other pastor's wives out there like her. And their husbands. I do wonder though...are the numbers not getting fewer and fewer; the good guys?
God bless you pastor's wife.
Ima
SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXPIALIDOCIOUS_lynn said...
I just got my Messenger today and I see Johnny Hunt is going to be speaking. I guess Hunt taking Gaines off that speaking engagement a few months ago meant nothing.
10:28 PM, June 29, 2007
Dr. Hunt did not remove Dr. Gaines from speaking. Dr. Gaines requested for his name to be removed. _This is a known fact!
"There really are more good guys than bad. The bad ones just get the press..."
And that is what I just can't understand. If this was happening in the days of Paul and Peter, Diotrephes and others, I am convinced that the rebukes would have been fast and public.
Country Club membership for a pastor is all about being part of the "in" crowd, rubbing shoulders and socializing with the movers and shakers, the CEOs, the wealthy and influential ... and about the opportunity for those folks to have the pastors ear, to get to spend time with him in their own element, to make him feel like he is part of the elite. It is a reciprocal relationship of shared power and influence. God help the pastor who falls into that trap!
Yes, and God help the congregation that he is leading where he is going.....
Junk...very well worded.
Gaines has made his bed and needs to lay in it.
Unfortunately, he is taking many good people with him.
Justin said, "Unfortunately, he is taking many good people with him."
Comment: And this is so very sad.
Ya know, it is very sad. Bellevue was an excellent place to grow and learn about God. I remember it many events fondly. I grew up attending that church. It grieves me in a way to see this happen. But the inactions by those with authority more or less pisses me off.
I feel like that since, we the laypeople have no ability to change anything anymore, we have no other choice but to leave, much like rats from a sinking ship. The best we can do is let the money dry up. Then perhaps we can salvage our beloved home in the future and attempt to restore her to her former glory. Though by then her name will have be soiled and all credibility ruined.
justin....can you adjust your slang alittle please. None of us are saints so no judgement...we just don't want to be off color on here.....working on that alot lately :)
Why asks a good question:
"Lin: ever hear of legalism?"
Sure...like the special 'Touch not the anointed' pastor?
There ain't no legalism in Priesthood of Believer, friend. That dog won't hunt.
So, tell me...what is the definition of Biblical legalism?
Sorry if the vernacular offends. I tend to speak very bluntly.
Justin,
Like I said,no judgement here, we just learned from some previous situations keep our "color" "vanilla"
Nass can say it better than me.
I am the queen of blunt and emo!
Its sad we have to keep the color so bland.
What previous situations, if I may ask?
Seems awfully bland to use vanilla all the time, especially if the recipe calls for cinnamon.
Uhmm, apparently posting either 1.) Doesn't work or 2.) doesn't show up or refresh.
Hence why I LOOOOVE wordpress.
Or...
3. Comment moderation is on because of the trolls.
Good night!
concernedSBCer said...
kerygma: Thank you for joining us. I have a serious question. Why aren't SG's friends stepping in, privately or publicly, to try to help him? Why aren't pastors in the SBC aghast at what is happening within some of our churches and standing together to "get the car back on the road?"
Those who've bought into the "I'm God's man" cult think he's right, and what is going on at BBC is necessary. He's doing biblical purging, in their view.
Justin: Please remember we are representing our Savior here, and while sometimes we talk of emotional issues and we get "wired" we do try to keep things as "vanilla" as possible. We certainly wouldn't want to diminish the credibility of this blog by being crude. We do call a spade a spade, and Truth reigns, just in a non-pepper kind of way! However, we certainly understand your frustration!
junk99male.....
I don't think you can make a blanket indictment of the 'movers and shakers, the CEOs, the wealthy and influential...' people as approving SG's lifestyle, or attempt at such. I don't know any of the people who provide his life support, but people of means are just like us. Altho I wouldn't claim the 'wealthy and influential' category, I could belong to country clubs, live the lifestyle, etc. Just not my thing. And unlike some, I have never had a comfortable feeling about SG. I own the problem. But amazing how that sentiment has infected so many others after exposure to his style. Just sayin' (thanks to oc)
kerygma: Thanks for your response. I have trouble understanding how they think purging is Biblical.
Kerygma said.. "Those who've bought into the "I'm God's man" cult think he's right, and what is going on at BBC is necessary. He's doing biblical purging, in their view."
Comment: You are right.
Concerned said, "Why aren't pastors in the SBC aghast at what is happening within some of our churches and standing together to "get the car back on the road?"
Comment: Because they are the ring leaders. The top dogs. It is like
Reagan economics...it starts at the top and 'trickles down'. Don't you see? It isn't about Jesus anymore...it is about the almighty dollar. It has become a country club atmosphere...a marketing mania. Big business. The deity has been filtered out. It makes me nauseous.
And to add to my previous post...
Those who are backing these new CEO lookalikes in the churches, these new movements, are not grounded in the Word. People may have thought they were and they may have appeared to have been, but truth is they were not. They may have been in the forefront of churches for years...preachers, Sunday School teachers, leaders, etc. But point is, had they been grounded in the Word, Truth, they would not be backing these heresies, standing with the false teachers.
Ima: I guess I do get it, yet it is so foreign to me at the same time. IT IS WRONG. Church leadership should be a calling from God, and the focus should always be on Jesus and the Word. I just don't understand how people van be so blind. Rhetorical statement, I know.
I have never heard of "Biblical purging" unless you are talking about church discipline....but on what basis do they have for that? And if that's the claim, has Matt. 18 been followed with the "truthseekers"????
I suggest a good read of 1 Cor chapters 1-5 when you get a chance. Not hard to see the parallels between Paul and Apollos, the people int he Corinthian church and us today.
Particular attention to what is being built and the foundation it is being built upon. Sure answers a lot of questions......
More or less gets us back to the previous thread. Work of mans hands. On judgement day his work will be judged by fire.....will BBC be standing on that day? It sure does not look like it.
Does this sound like your preacher today?
1 Cor 2:1And I, when I came to you, brothers,[a] did not come proclaiming to you the testimony[b] of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
1 Cor 3:1But I, brothers,[a] could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 4For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human?
1 Cor 3:10According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Lily wrote:
"Where is the pic of me with a tiara and an ankle holster, belt slide, or shoulder holster.
"If you can find it, I'll make it into my personal stationary."
Your stationery, ma'am.
Nass,
you crack me up!
Lily,
send me a letter with the new stationary!!
Concerned...
I have been reluctant to say this because I don’t want to be judgmental; yet the fruit tells the story. I recently had a conversation with a pastor, one I have confidence in, and I ask him why there are pastors out there today not following Truth. Why there are pastors out there that appear to be more concerned with ‘self’, rather than the cause of Christ. Why these pastors are more concerned with how wealthy they can become than they are about how they can convey the richness in knowing Christ. And while we are at it Concerned, please do read the link in my post yesterday from MacArthur’s website. That will give some insight to what I am talking about here. His consensus was that there are men in the pulpits today who are not called; that this has become a chosen profession for many. Although as sad as that it, I was glad to know that there are others out there that see the same thing I do. I can certainly see why it would be attractive as a profession, can’t you? And it makes sense…we don’t see the state of ecstasy, the drive, the love of the Lord in many of these pastors that should be evident, as we once did. The marketing effect is obvious…it is a business. The CEO status is obvious. The focus should always be on Jesus and the Word just as you say, but I fear the focus in on self and the dollar.
Biblical purging? No, this is not something that has been a part of our vocabulary. I am sorry to say that church discipline has become to the church what a pink slip is to big business. Matthew 18 is a thing of the past in these apostate churches with false teachers at the head; it is not implemented anymore except in a few churches whose pastors teach Truth and these are few. When the business leaders of these apostate churches want members gone now, they force them out. They don’t implement Matthew 18…they can’t; these people haven’t done anything wrong. The question of the ‘lost sheep’ is hysterical…they are not interested in the lost sheep. When a pink slip is given to an employee, that employee is history. These ‘lost sheep’ are history to the church.
Church is not as we once knew it…I don’t think it ever will be. I keep asking myself when will all this end. The answer to that is easy…it won’t. Things won’t be the same. I have a hard time accepting that answer, but it is biblical. We are living in the end times of the Church Age. The Rapture is upon us.
I suppose instead of continuing in this manner, we need to do our best to reach the lost. I get so ‘wrapped up’ in all that is surrounding us…these things that are just unbelievable, that I lose focus myself sometimes of what is important…reaching the lost. I continue to be concerned about our witness…how our witness has been damaged because of all that has happened in all the churches. The churches are using worldly techniques to reach the lost and we know that won’t work. It is like the blind leading the blind.
Sometimes, I think I would love to see all of you, as remnants, build your own church. You are the Body of Christ…and I wonder would the Lord not bless your work in reaching lost souls. You all know and understand Truth, and it is becoming lost to so many out there now.
I am sure I will get chewed up and spit out due to this post, but I’ve been chewed up and spit out before. If you are not persecuted for the Lord’s sake, remember you have done nothing.
Ima
When W.A. Criswell announced back during the "conservative resurgence" that the pastor is the "ruler" of the church, it was like saying "sic 'em" to a bulldog. These boys who needed other people to boss around to feel important finally found their niche, and they ran to it like moths to a flame. If any other nonprofit executives behaved this way, their boards would have them out on their ears.
Ima,
Your 11:00 a.m. post today is a most telling and truthful review of what we have in the world today. And yes, if you compare the statements of reality in your post to the description in the Bible of how things will progress in the end days of the Church Age - there is no argument left - we are there. We are now in the critical stage of reaching the lost souls
Excellent post Ima.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For each one shall bear his own load.
6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
lily...
I am humbled by your remarks.
Thank you...
Ima
Ima, my guess is that there have always been those who have viewed it as a 'profession'. It is just so obvious now because they have become so bold as to refer to themselves as CEO's and introduce business structures to the church.
As I have read about Zwingli of the Swiss Reformation who knew infant Baptism was not Biblical yet rationalized it for the state church, (even some of his own students turned against his endorsement and participation in the state church as they studied scripture and became convicted of truth) I am struck by how power and position in this world is such a snare. (Most of Zwingli's students were eventually martyred)
It is our own fault. It is our fault that we have been biblically illiterate. We have trusted men only for truth.
Even after the Reformation the church had the power of the state to enforce participation. What is our excuse for following false teachers?
Kerygma said...
"When W.A. Criswell announced back during the "conservative resurgence" that the pastor is the "ruler" of the church, it was like saying "sic 'em" to a bulldog. These boys who needed other people to boss around to feel important finally found their niche, and they ran to it like moths to a flame. If any other nonprofit executives behaved this way, their boards would have them out on their ears."
11:41 AM, June 30, 2007
______
Response:
"Boys"?
Does that glorify Christ?
Even the name calling with regard to Steve Gaines that occurs here occasionally is totally, totally wrong.
When a brother or sister in Christ is wrong, is in sin, do any here think that it will help the situation to refer to them in ways that provoke them to anger?
There are over 37,000 churches in the SBC. How many of those pastors do you know? How many of them are you indicting with such a blanket statement? For your information it is not easy being a pastor.
I don't know any of them who thought of W. A. Criswell, Adrian Rogers, or any other pastor as the source of faith and practice.
The blanket denunciations of ministers on this blog do nothing more than detract from any potential it might have to help BBC or any other church.
Such treatment of the office of pastor is unbiblical, unwarranted, unholy, and reveals a level of bitterness that just gives ammo to the trolls who frequent this site.
The Word of God says:
"Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."
Some have objected to reminders of a "spirit of gentleness" and have referred to the cleansing of the temple or the denunciation of scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites.... I am well aware of those passages, but Jesus was perfect in anger. He did not release the doves because frequently they were the offering of the poor. If you are not perfect in anger, please remember that blanket condemnation of any group is unwise... especially blanket condemnation of all of Christ's undershepherds.
Afternoon Fellow Saints,
I have not read all the entries but I have caught a few and I agree that the pastor / CEO is not Biblical. One of the best books on the subject outside of the Bible is:
"Brothers, We Are Not Professionals"
A Plea to Pastors for Radical Ministry - by John Piper.
I agree there is to much emphasis on the church being a fortune 500 company, with the perks.
I do ask though, to balance this with what else has been said, what does the scripture teach concerning the operational concerns of the church? What does it teach about the laity and their involvement in the decisions made?
I also agree with, whoever stated... "If I were Pastor I would have resigned 6 mistakes ago."
It is totally fair to ask your leadership to be biblical. I encourage all of us, inside BBC or out, to be biblical also.
kerygma....
Interesting note about W. A. Criswell. My brother knew him. He told my brother that he knew that he had deacons who were adulterers. Yet would do nothing. Maybe that was the sacrifice for being the 'ruler.' And, honestly, NO aspersions cast. I have the utmost respect for his ministry. I lean toward forbearing the negative with prayer and celebrating the positive with thanks to God. He was obviously a gifted preacher.
Post a Comment