Well, the $64,000 question has finally been answered! For weeks people have been asking why the March 25th "business" meeting was adjourned so abruptly. Now we have the answer... or at least an excuse.
"Seekinghiswill" wrote:
"Brothers and sisters in Christ should be able to express their views and there is a proper place and time for a calm, peaceful meeting but it was obvious that the business meetings was not the right timing because there were rising tempers from both sides which would have produced no good fruits. For this reason we were for the meeting to be dismissed. I look forward to the time when we all can sit down and have a meeting with the Judge."
Oh, really? You know, I wholeheartedly agree with the first part of that statement. Church members should be able to express their views at the proper place and time, but I would hope that time and place would be sometime and somewhere this side of heaven!
I can only assume "seekinghiswill" is referring to the March 25th "monkey business" meeting. If so, I must have missed all those "rising tempers." The meeting I attended was quite calm, and the people participating in the meeting (bringing motions, etc.), from everything I saw, were always respectful of each other. There was that ugly little display by Donna Gaines' sister at the very end and the woman heard praying loudly during the opening "prayer circles" for the Lord to "deal with those... who would divide... our... church," but I digress.
"Seekinghiswill" wrote:
"Brothers and sisters in Christ should be able to express their views and there is a proper place and time for a calm, peaceful meeting but it was obvious that the business meetings was not the right timing because there were rising tempers from both sides which would have produced no good fruits. For this reason we were for the meeting to be dismissed. I look forward to the time when we all can sit down and have a meeting with the Judge."
Oh, really? You know, I wholeheartedly agree with the first part of that statement. Church members should be able to express their views at the proper place and time, but I would hope that time and place would be sometime and somewhere this side of heaven!
I can only assume "seekinghiswill" is referring to the March 25th "monkey business" meeting. If so, I must have missed all those "rising tempers." The meeting I attended was quite calm, and the people participating in the meeting (bringing motions, etc.), from everything I saw, were always respectful of each other. There was that ugly little display by Donna Gaines' sister at the very end and the woman heard praying loudly during the opening "prayer circles" for the Lord to "deal with those... who would divide... our... church," but I digress.
Let's take a look at the rest of the motions (of which I'm aware) that members were poised to make:
1. Motion on Non Disclosure Agreements for the Staff
I move that staff members of Bellevue Baptist Church shall discontinue the practice of requesting or requiring staff members to sign any kind of non-disclosure agreement in regard to their employment at Bellevue Baptist Church; and that any staff member or former staff member having signed such a non-disclosure agreement shall likewise be released, in writing, from said agreement.
2. Motion on Disqualification of Ministers For Sexual Misconduct
I move that we affirm our belief in the scriptural authority of I Timothy 3 and Titus 1 for the qualifications for ministerial service, and that we affirm to our larger community, committees and staff, that sexual misconduct is a reason for disqualification from ministerial service within the authority of scriptural qualifications set out in I Timothy 3 and Titus 1.
Remember, this is the one that Steve Gaines said is "only a guideline."
3. Motion on Committees - Membership
I make the following motion regarding committee membership:
No church member may serve on more than one committee, elected or ex officio, including ad hoc committees, unless serving on a second committee or ad hoc committee in only a non-voting capacity. Laypersons should not serve more than three years on committees, followed by at least one year without serving on any committee, similar to the deacon rotation.
No member shall chair the same, or different committees more than once in any three consecutive years. For example, if chairing Committee A this year, the member cannot chair Committee A or any other committee the next year or following year.
No member may serve on the same committee for more than 3 years in any 10-year period. This does not restrict the member from serving on other committees during the ten years.
4. Motion on Financial Expenditures
I move that any financial expenditure will be subject to review by any member of Bellevue Baptist Church, upon request, at reasonable times and with reasonable notice.
5. Motion On Congregational Meetings Seeking Reconciliation
I move that Bellevue Baptist Church conduct one or more fair and impartial congregational meetings, to include our Senior Pastor and ministerial staff, as necessary to give its members the opportunity to hear both sides of the issues that continue to divide the church body and with the first meeting to be held within the next four weeks.
And the one that was actually brought to the floor and passed...
6. Motion on Committees – Conflicts of Interest
I make the following motion regarding conflicts of interest for committee membership:
1. That potential committee members shall disclose any conflict of interest, real or potential, in regard to the committee for which they are nominated. Such statements should disclose:
If the committee nominee, or member(s) of the nominee's immediate family have business relationships with, or are a partner, officer, or key employee of an enterprise doing business with Bellevue Baptist Church, or the officers or key employees of Bellevue Baptist Church, or the immediate family of officers or key employees of Bellevue Baptist Church.
2. No member shall be allowed to participate in a committee review or decision that would have a financial impact upon the member or member’s immediate family.
Conflicts should be avoided by the Committee on Committees or other nominating entities when proposing committee members. The intent of this motion is to avoid conflicts or potential conflicts, for example:
A member, doing business with the church, should not be placed upon a committee that is materially related to the business being conducted.
The important question is, have we seen any changes in committee memberships because of this motion being passed by the congregation?
Can anyone explain why "no good fruits" would (or could) have come from these motions being brought to the floor in a calm, respectful manner?
494 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 494 of 494Slow blog tonight ... the trolls must be at a Hollywood Party somewhere. :)
Maybe a "Lord of the Rings" party? There were lots of trolls there........
junk wrote:
"I thought I already explained that Messengers aren't technically reps of the church that sends them. I musta been too long and boring about it."
I apologize, junk. You did explain that earlier, and a fine job you did!
gmommylv
Mail for you!
piglet,
back at you!
Junk said:
“But...just because a person has some official capacity in the SBC does not obligate their home church to send them as a Messenger, and a person does not have to be sent as a Messenger to serve in a denominational position.”
My comment:
You and I may be some of the least qualified to write about what "is and is not" relating to the management of the convention but my understanding is that the convention has an extensive set of bylaws, which do impose on local churches to conform and adhere to certain of the SB Convention bylaws in order to participate. You must ‘yea’ to play.
Considering your point; one may not be required to be a duly elected Messenger to participate in denominational governance but must be to participate in an official capacity at the annual convention. Should any of the proposed elect be voted down, (ridiculous?) then that individual’s authority at the convention would be impoverished. I may be corrected on this as I am no authority. There may even be another executive tool which would allow the unelected individual to achieve conformance to another of the superseding bylaws allowing him or her to participate justly. Oh what fun is governance!
Personally, I think Dr. Mike Spradlin would accept election by a band of thieves and gluttons without concern as he, not being a fellow comrade in sin, would, while walking in an upright manner, approved as unto the Lord, accept God’s appointment. He has a reputation for doing his best to do and represent the Lords will. I think that is the integrity you were referring to.
The quality of the electors nor the impropriety of their electoral process is of NO concern since the will of the Lord is being accomplished. Remember, God can and does use both good and evil for His purposes. One of our mistakes is that we pretend to know which is good and which is evil. Living in time when men call good evil and evil good scrambles our surrounding influences leading us to hastily claim confidences of knowing good and evil without proper diligence and care. The evidence is in; no one comes by Scriptural discernment naturally. Lately we at BBC have seen a preponderance of naturally occurring discernment with the appropriate outcomes. Pause and choose this day to acquire supernatural discernment. It is in the Word of God.
Who wound me up? I do apologize for all the words. Hopefully, I made more sense and helped, than not.
By the way, as I have mentioned previously my Genealogical and career track assessment of our beloved Dr. Bill is continuing. I am most assured that his travels are many and that he most likely has eaten all that he attests to. However, his most recent admission to 50% streaking while jogging just about decimated all my research. We love you Dr. Bill wherever you are.
Padroc
padroc wrote:
"However, his most recent admission to 50% streaking while jogging just about decimated all my research. We love you Dr. Bill wherever you are."
Yeah, and it about decimated my appetite for the foreseeable future. Eeek! But we do love you, Bill Loney -- wherever you may be tonight. (That built-in fur vest of yours might feel pretty good in Memphis tonight!)
concernedSBCer said...
"In my opinion, you can't negotiate with terrorists...and these are "church terrorists"....there is no negotiating...they have set their agenda."
Comment: Hey Concerned...interesting you use the term 'church terrorists'. John MacArthur has a recent series of sermons in which he coined the phrase 'spiritual terrorists' for this series. Interesting parallel of phrases...meaning virtually the same thing. I think I am correct in saying that these are still available free of charge from oneplace.com presently. You can order this series from grace to you I believe. I have heard some of these sermons and he hits the nail on the head, as usual. Both of these terms, 'church and/or spiritual terrorists' are fitting in my opinion.
Ima
Some things to consider as we teach and are taught to pray.
Ez3:10Moreover, he said to me, "Son of man, all my words that I shall speak to you receive in your heart, and hear with your ears. 11And go to the exiles, to your people, and speak to them and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,' whether they hear or refuse to hear."
Ez8:18Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them."
EZ 33:31And they come to you as people come, and they sit before you as my people, and they hear what you say but they will not do it; for with lustful talk in their mouths they act; their heart is set on their gain. 32And behold, you are to them like one who sings lustful songs[b] with a beautiful voice and plays well on an instrument, for they hear what you say, but they will not do it.
Jer 11:14"Therefore do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer on their behalf, for I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their trouble. 15What right has my beloved in my house, when she has done many vile deeds? Can even sacrificial flesh avert your doom? Can you then exult? 16The LORD once called you 'a green olive tree, beautiful with good fruit.' But with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed. 17The LORD of hosts, who planted you, has decreed disaster against you, because of the evil that the house of Israel and the house of Judah have done, provoking me to anger by making offerings to Baal."
Jer 17:23Yet they did not listen or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck, that they might not hear and receive instruction.
Jer 19:14Then Jeremiah came from Topheth, where the LORD had sent him to prophesy, and he stood in the court of the LORD's house and said to all the people: 15"Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, behold, I am bringing upon this city and upon all its towns all the disaster that I have pronounced against it, because they have stiffened their neck, refusing to hear my words."
Micah 3:4Then they will cry to the LORD,
but he will not answer them;
he will hide his face from them at that time,
because they have made their deeds evil.
Micah 6:9The voice of the LORD cries to the city--
and it is sound wisdom to fear your name:
"Hear of the rod and of him who appointed it![c]
10Can I forget any longer the treasures[d] of wickedness in the house of the wicked,
and the scant measure that is accursed?
11Shall I acquit the man with wicked scales
and with a bag of deceitful weights?
12Your[e] rich men are full of violence;
your inhabitants speak lies,
and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth.
13Therefore I strike you with a grievous blow,
making you desolate because of your sins.
14You shall eat, but not be satisfied,
and there shall be hunger within you;
you shall put away, but not preserve,
and what you preserve I will give to the sword.
15You shall sow, but not reap;
you shall tread olives, but not anoint yourselves with oil;
you shall tread grapes, but not drink wine.
16For you have kept the statutes of Omri,[f]
and all the works of the house of Ahab;
and you have walked in their counsels,
that I may make you a desolation, and your[g] inhabitants a hissing;
so you shall bear the scorn of my people."
Zech 1:4Do not be like your fathers, to whom the former prophets cried out, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, Return from your evil ways and from your evil deeds.' But they did not hear or pay attention to me, declares the LORD. 5Your fathers, where are they? And the prophets, do they live forever? 6But my words and my statutes, which I commanded my servants the prophets, did they not overtake your fathers? So they repented and said, As the LORD of hosts purposed to deal with us for our ways and deeds, so has he dealt with us."
Zech 7:12They made their hearts diamond-hard lest they should hear the law and the words that the LORD of hosts had sent by his Spirit through the former prophets. Therefore great anger came from the LORD of hosts. 13"As I[b] called, and they would not hear, so they called, and I would not hear," says the LORD of hosts, 14"and I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations that they had not known. Thus the land they left was desolate, so that no one went to and fro, and the pleasant land was made desolate."
Mal 2:1"And now, O priests, this command is for you. 2If you will not listen, if you will not take it to heart to give honor to my name, says the LORD of hosts, then I will send the curse upon you and I will curse your blessings. Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you do not lay it to heart. 3Behold, I will rebuke your offspring,[a] and spread dung on your faces, the dung of your offerings, and you shall be taken away with it.[b] 4So shall you know that I have sent this command to you, that my covenant with Levi may stand, says the LORD of hosts. 5My covenant with him was one of life and peace, and I gave them to him. It was a covenant of fear, and he feared me. He stood in awe of my name. 6True instruction[c] was in his mouth, and no wrong was found on his lips. He walked with me in peace and uprightness, and he turned many from iniquity. 7For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and people[d] should seek instruction from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8But you have turned aside from the way. You have caused many to stumble by your instruction. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the LORD of hosts, 9and so I make you despised and abased before all the people, inasmuch as you do not keep my ways but show partiality in your instruction."
concernedSBCer said...
In my opinion, you can't negotiate with terrorists...and these are "church terrorists"....there is no negotiating...they have set their agenda.
Reply: I believe you are right on. Any concessions BBC makes will serve its own purpose.
At this point, we have to ask ourselves, "What are we fighting for?" Bellevue Baptist Church, 2000 Appling Road is an address. If our fight is for the beautiful "campus" of BBC, we are "tilting at windmills." We have much bigger problems than holding on to the campus of BBC and keeping old friendships and activities intact.
I am afraid we have been so focused on our own pain that we have failed to look at the big picture. Many are fleeing BBC and walking into another hijacked churches -- none the wiser.
We know the fall of BBC came about because it was planned years ago. While BBC was falling, churches all around us were suffering the same fate, without all the fanfare. The battlefield is much larger than our own church grounds. Now we are finding we have no safe place to flee.
Our enemy is not just Steve Gaines, David Coombes, or the current administration of BBC. Someone more clever and more powerful wrote the instruction manual and they just followed the directions.
But we can find comfort:
"Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time, Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. Be sobor, be vigilant, because your advesary, the devil walketh about, seeking whom he may devour; whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world." 1 Peter 5:6-9 KJV
---a little light reading for your morning coffeetime, courtesy of churchmouse.
Churchmouse: You are right on. This situation is so much bigger and widespread....and so many lives are devastated.....we must pray.
"If My people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves and pray...."......you know the rest......
Christians are to pray for those in leadership over us, Remember the Jews and also pray for one another. Prayer ministry is for all believers not just men.
I have prayed for my pastor, Dr. Steve Gaines that God will strengthen the inner man and he will continue to speak the Word with boldness. I absolutely loved the message that was presented last Sunday and considered it a direct confirmation.
I also want to lovingly comment to the accusations that he preaches self serving sermons. There are no messages from God's Word that is not, "self serving" if we love the Truth because all the Word serves He who lives inside the heart.
Did it ever cross your mind that God was speaking to me through the message? He was, and I want to share with you what I heard:
1. I heard God saying Steve Gaines will preach MY WORD even if he knows his enemy will use it against him.
2. I heard God say regardless of how badly these people have hurt him, Steve Gaines still loves them enough to stand and preach what I (God) desire for them to hear.
3. I heard God say, congregation, I love you enough to tell you what is wrong with you and grant you another time to repent.
4. God spoke to my heart and said follow the message you heard and practice submission with this deeper understanding of submission. To work on my inner beauty and not be so focused on my outer appearance and beauty.
Please do not take this wrong, I am simply sharing what Jesus is doing in my heart. If we all would take last Sunday's message, it was the same message Dr. Rogers taught,
and apply it we would be better Christians and most would be amazed just how much we focus, "out there" instead of inside of our own inner condition.
Peope can be so focused on what is wrong with our leaders that we do not do what the Word tells us to do:PRAY FOR OUR LEADERS and then we wonder why they do not meet all of our expectations. God gives us what we need, not what we want and we have exactly what (who) we need and I thank God for our leaders.
Good morning one and all.
Yes, our church and others have been hijacked by ungodly, greedly buisness men. They do not fear God nor man. They are totally unaware of the condition of their own souls. Not only our churches, but our country. We have fought for "Freedom of Speech." However we cannot speak in our own churches. We cannot express our deepest emotions on the concerns of our church body. We are shut down and shut out. For this reason my family will not move our letters until we see the direction of the churches we are considering. We need a revival in our churches, we need a revival in our nation. We are on a path of destruction, ARMAGEDDON is at our door steps and no one can see it. God have mercy on our souls. God have mercy on those that are suppose to be warning the world of the coming disaster.
"You might want to consider that some of YOU are the ones deceived by the devil. This STUFF has taken over many of you and that is not of God. It is effecting your jobs, your families, your lives. "
Strange thing to say about truth. I just read a book about the Reformation and the Catholic's told the Protestants the same thing because they stood for truth of scripture all the way to the noose.
churchmouse said, "We have much bigger problems..."
Comment: Mouse...you have got it! The Southern Baptist Convention is so inundated with PD, CGM, CP, EC, NA it is pathetic! One cannot escape it. Most people have succumbed to it through the 'slow boil', frog in the pot scenerio. And I, like you, cannot understand why people cannot see this!
If one cannot find a 'virus-free' church, then home church is an alternative. Face it, that was the beginning. We are back to where we, as Christians, started. That is a bit of a brain-twister isn't it?
And of course, it is not a baptist thing...no denomination is exempt.
It saddens me to know that Christians are staying home because they can't find a true church. I am fortunate to have one now, but with gas going up like it is, I don't know how much longer I can continue to drive 60 miles to church and back. But I am fortunate that I can get a live feed to Bro. Jeff's services. You might want to do that for a while.
Ima
The Sunday bulletin says the Administrative Pastor's page at bellevue.org has new updated information, but could someone point it out to me because I see nothing new.
thanks!
Karen
Why is the question? said...
You might want to consider that some of YOU are the ones deceived by the devil. This STUFF has taken over many of you and that is not of God. It is effecting your jobs, your families, your lives.
11:13 AM, May 18, 2007
Reply;
Thank you for the suggestion. I have considered that; "have I been deceived by the devil?" So, I checked. No, I am not deceived by the devil. God gave me His WORD on that.
May I suggest that it is a REACTION to STUFF that has taken us over? With God's help, we will prevail. He promised us that, so we can promise you. Thanks for caring.
Ima,
Good morning. Can you listen to live feed with dial-up?
"The Southern Baptist Convention is so inundated with PD, CGM, CP, EC, NA it is pathetic!"
Ok, Acronyms are great, but WTH does all that mean? Pardon me, but I must report to ADCOMSUBORDCOMPHIBSPAC, if you get my drift.
lovecakes,
ADCOMSUBORDCOMPHIBSPAC
I think my dad worked on the project when he was in the Navy! :)
PD - Purpose Driven (aka Purpose Drive Life
CGM - Church Growth Movement
CP - have no idea :)
EC - Emerging Church (aka Emerging Church Movement
NA - See CP
Hope this helps! Check out www.lighhousetrailsresearch.com. It's a real eyeopener!
karen
I have been blessed to see it in my lifetime, but because many of our generation have never seen it:
What is real revival?
"Wilt thou not revive us again: that thy people may rejoice in thee?" (Psalms 85:6)
What real revival is not:
It is not for the exaltation of man.
It is not self-generated.
It is not learned behavior.
It is not zealous legalism.
It is not pure emotionalism.
It does not call a believer to “turn off your mind.”
It is not something that comes just because it is scheduled on a calendar.
It is not something that is confined to a church building or dependent on some minister’s presence.
It is not something that results in confusion (barking, weird unholy laughter, uncontrollable shaking, convulsions, uncontrollable yelling and screaming, people falling to the floor as if they have been machine-gunned, writhing on the floor like a snake, bobbing like a chicken, making animal sounds, drinking poison, handling snakes, or any other kind of bodily distortions or bizarre behavior, etc.). Such behavior is unbiblical, indecent, out of order, degrading, often dangerous, always confusing to the lost, and without question a hindrance to the cause of Christ. "Let all things be done decently and in order" (1 Cor. 14:40).
In counterfeit revival, false manifestations produce only excitement and wonder without a mighty conviction of sin and turning to God.
In counterfeit revival, there is often a focus on physical healing rather than on the Gospel of Christ.
Real revival does not result in new revelation.
________________________
What real revival is:
Revival is a work of God’s Holy Spirit illumining, rebuking, burning away the dross of transgression, and bringing back the first-love glory to Christian lives that have been tarnished by sin. As God shines His face upon His children, sin retreats and they are changed further from glory to glory (Psa. 80).
The fruit of real revival is the fruit of the Holy Spirit (“love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control"
Gal. 5:22-23).
Vance Havner defined revival as "a work of God's Spirit among His own people ... what we call revival is simply New Testament Christianity, the saints getting back to normal" (Hearts Afire, 10304).
Real revival comes from God and by its fruit reflects His holy nature.
Real revival, while experiential in nature, conforms to God’s Word as zeal is channeled to God’s glory.
Real revival results in the anointed preaching and sharing of the Gospel of Christ.
It is a work of God’s Spirit like a fire that often begins in the heart of one humbled, praying soul.
Self-sufficiency is abandoned in the light of the Spirit’s revelation of spiritual need.
The complacent are jolted by God’s Spirit into a realization of personal and corporate spiritual need.
Through preaching and the movement of the Holy Spirit, the sins of the day tolerated by God’s children are exposed by His Spirit and His Word.
A mighty conviction of sin begins to dawn with the realization of a great need for forgiveness.
This is followed by a tidal wave of confession to God and a flood of deep cleansing grace.
Idols are cast out of the heart as the shadows disperse in the light of God’s glory.
A hunger for God and His Word grows in intensity as the experience of worship deepens.
Biblical, doctrinal truth is embraced and cherished.
Worldly living loses its appeal, paling in the light of the glory of God.
Toleration of sin is abandoned and the desire for holy living is consuming.
Love for brothers and sisters in the faith grows stronger.
Christian obedience is unhindered by old besetting sins in the lives of individuals.
As revival fire spreads through the church, backslidden Christians are brought to repentance.
As revival fire spreads through the church, damaged relationships between Christians are restored, marriages are healed, families are strengthened, and family altars are renewed.
As revival fire spreads through the church, the prayer lives of church members increase greatly and supplication is made for lost sinners.
As revival fire spreads through the church, witnessing to the lost at home and abroad becomes the passion of the saved; and many come to Christ.
25 +yrs@bbc,
Have you ever had the pleasure of sitting in a revival led by Vance Havner? I have, he had a true knowledge of the "True Faith and Religion."
Thanks for the add on to the revival comment.
lovecakes said...
"The Southern Baptist Convention is so inundated with PD, CGM, CP, EC, NA it is pathetic!"
"Ok, Acronyms are great, but WTH does all that mean? Pardon me, but I must report to ADCOMSUBORDCOMPHIBSPAC, if you get my drift."
Reply: My dear lovecakes. I am SOOOO sorry. Please find it within your sweet heart to forgive me for being so thoughtless. I don't like acronyms myself...and here I use them! Karen did a great job, but let me finish up the job.
PD of course is purpose driven
CGM - Church Growth Movement
CP - Contemplative Prayer (aka Spiritual Formation, etc.)
EC - Emerging Church OR Emergent Church)
NA - New Age
Lovecakes...I will try to do better.
Ima
2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The great falling away.....the "church falls away from Christ, the WORD and follows a man centered religion based on feelings and experiences.
The true Gospel of salvation through Christ by repentance and faith resulting in Holy fruit and works exchanged....
For the false Gospel of repentless salvation without refinement or baptism by fire or the Holy Spirit. God becomes only love, mercy and grace. Forgiveness for past , present and even "future" sins. And worst of all....Removal of fear. Fear of an angry God as his people turn to man for salvation.
Everyone:
This website I am posting here is taken from Ken Silva's Christian Research Net today. It takes you to oneplace.com where Mike Corley shares a sermon from Jeff Noblit's True Church Conference. I want you to read what Ken Silva has to say about this sermon. I was there at the conference and I totally agree with him on what he has to say about this sermon. If you don't do anything else today...you will want to listen to this. Trust me.
Church History and a Call to Reformation by Jeff Noblitt
Ima
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=1904
Churchmouse,
I am not sure if you can get it through dial-up or not. I have written to the crew and will get back to you on this as soon as I hear from them.
They have a service archive that I am listing here for you. It covers about three weeks services or something like that. You can even download them if you like. You might try and see if you can get the video in. This man teaches Truth. Those dislodged from Bellevue would love Jeff Noblit because he speaks truth. :)
Here is the Service Archive of Jeff Noblit
Ima
Why is it that a group of people can go into a class room, that can hold 40 students but 5 students were home sick, then some go out saying they saw a lot of empty seats while others go out and say they saw a lot of children who needed to a strong teacher?
What do you see when you look at a glass half filled with water? Half full or half empty?
From another Angle
Revivals at Bellevue?or Counterfit Revivals?
Their idea of Revival
1.Revive a corporate goon give him his own gestapo offie and phones and pay him a fat salary and ordain
him.(the ordnation has made him very pious about transparency lately just call and ask if the pastor is considering another ruling on Matthew 18?
2.Revive the display case in the foyer with New and improved displays to show numbers of memberships and Holy Land discounts.
3.The Jamie Parker show Starring
of course Jamie Parker and the Ryan Wingo band.
4.Revive the tithing records of church staff and choir members.
5.Revive the pastors Salary requirments to come to Bellevue.Just call now that we have total the total transparency...
folks our church was hijacked by this group of self serving men.I am sad that when I drive by the Three crosses now.The Only Intent of these self servng men is money and power not revival.Do these money men really yearn for revial?Look at Their fruit....welcome not to Bellevue Baptist church But to Bellevue Corp a new type of revived corporate church where as long as your willing to find unique ways of appling scripture you may join the club....Bellevue Corp...A freind to the Family and a freind of Steve...
I am sorry to say this, but the seeds were already planted and ready to to be nurshied by the leader to come. When he came they all knew him to be the gardener they had been looking for.
Jesus said his sheep would know Him and they would know His voice.
It works with satan as well.
concerned said...
"25 +yrs@bbc, Have you ever had the pleasure of sitting in a revival led by Vance Havner? I have, he had a true knowledge of the "True Faith and Religion."
Thanks for the add on to the revival comment.
12:19 PM, May 18, 2007"
Response:
I heard him preach & read his books, but I never was in a revival service that he preached.
I have been in a real revival before. BBC needs it desperately. Our nation needs another Great Awakening. May God send revival to BBC and awakening to America--or not only are Bellevue's golden days history... the same will be said of our nation.
jmo
25+: Yes, the writing is on the wall. We need to pray for a great revival of sincere, studious, on-fire believers to do God's work and spread the gospel.
When you go to a Lifeway bookstore and browse the shelves to see have big time problems that go well beyond BBC.
I wonder if the need for a revival will apply to Steve Gaines any more than Matthew 18 does. He thinks he has done no wrong, why would he even consider his own need of revival? What about Jamie Parker, DC and the rest of the administration as well? What do they think about revival? Do they see the need? Will we have music that promotes revival?
As far as I am concerned, unless the revival starts with each of us individually, and that INCLUDES Steve Gaines and his associates, Bellevue is doomed to apostasy.
concerned said...
"I am sorry to say this, but the seeds were already planted and ready to to be nurshied by the leader to come. When he came they all knew him to be the gardener they had been looking for."
Comment: Concerned, I am of the same opinion. Given all consideration, I cannot phathom what these people think they have to gain. It boggles the mind.
bin wonderin x2 said...
"When you go to a Lifeway bookstore and browse the shelves to see have big time problems that go well beyond BBC."
Reply...YES! And as I keep saying, Lifeway needs to be boycotted. As long as people continue to do business with Lifeway, they will continue to pollute the minds of the unsuspecting! Please quit buying ANYTHING Lifeway sells. Flood them with mail asking them to quit putting this junk in their stores and on their websites for sale.
concerned and ima,
I totally agree with you - the seeds that infiltrated BBC had been firmly planted long before Steve Gaines came on the scene. The problem is instead of being weed killer; Steve Gaines is Miracle Gro.
karen
Great analogy Karen! Miracle Grow...hahaha! That is good...
Hey y'all,
(You know I love you, Ima. Maybe I kid around too much.) Do you think mainstream Christianity is moving away from y'alls own core articles of faith? Is this a struggle for the soul of the Southern Baptist creed?
I don't really understand the conflict. The shame that has befallen Bellevue is shared in communities that are Catholic, Mormon, Krishna conciousness (bankrupted them), Buddhist, etc. And like clockwork, the same sort of "under the blood" justifications (whatever suits their creed),reliance on strengthening loyalties, and eliminating speech challenging to authority.
Fortunately, I don't have to be evangelical in my path--you believe what you know in your heart to be relevant and of benefit and I'll do the same. I am a fallable human being, and it would be foolish to insist that my path is superior.
I believe we are spiritual beings, but that diadactic approaches to faith cause suffering in personal relationships, in communities, and on the world stage.
I guess I'm asking, do many of you dovetail the downfall of Bellevue with PD, NA, CP, ADHD, AT&T, STP, etc. (ok, my snarky sense of humor again)? Because if you do--yo, fight one battle at a time, lovey-dovies, in my probably flawed opinion. Are you trying to save those people stubbling into PD & co. (ha) or the SB tradition?
Karen said...
concerned and ima,
I totally agree with you - the seeds that infiltrated BBC had been firmly planted long before Steve Gaines came on the scene. The problem is instead of being weed killer; Steve Gaines is Miracle Gro.
karen
3:53 PM, May 18, 2007
Another analogy is that if the SBC was a wooden house...its been infested with termites. And Steve Gaines is by far not The Orkin Man!
Ima said, "Lifeway needs to be boycotted. As long as people continue to do business with Lifeway, they will continue to pollute the minds of the unsuspecting! Please quit buying ANYTHING Lifeway sells. Flood them with mail asking them to quit putting this junk in their stores and on their websites for sale."
Reply: Ima, what we need are some alternative sources for the things we are buying at Lifeway. I thought of Family Bookstores, but they have about the same thing as Lifeway. Bellevue's bookstore is the same.
lovecakes asked:
Are you trying to save those people stubbling into PD & co. (ha) or the SB tradition?
Reply: Oh, no, lovecakes. We aren't trying to save people stubbling into the SB tradition. No, way. You see, we have been put out of our church.
Think of it this way: We had boarded our flight, taken off, and were cruising toward our destination. Some men came along and said, "We are changing the course of this flight." We objected, and they told us to get off the plane."
Now, there are even more men at the ticket counter selling tickets to this same flight. We just want to warn others. Animals in the jungle do the same kind of thing for each other -- warn of empending danger and all.
Questions concerning the SBC messenger rules can be found on the SBC Web site under "constitution & Bylaws. Bylaws item 8 defines messenger election. Check it out. I sent a question to the registration dept. and asked about unqualified messengers. If they answer I'll post it.
This
I have a website if anyone is interested in contributing.
lovecakes.
The downfall of bbc has been secret, covered over sin.
A church (or family) cannot stay pure or healthy when a minister (or parent)walks around with a minister/parent mask on that says ..."I am a safe authority/example figure."
all the while abusing,corrupting,and defiling what is sacred and innocent.
I am not the theology major on this blog but have lived the trickle down affects of a parent bringing secret sin into the home...seemingly undetected.
The consequences seem to never end.
The innocent are wounded and defiled. The whole family/church suffer damage.
No CEO, no outside damage control person, no amount of money or advertising ,no counseling,
no changing the rules to lessen the crime,no small meetings with godly men,no blog,....
Nothing can begin to heal until LIGHT and TRUTH exposes the evil.
When black is called black again and people are ashamed and appalled by the carnage from the sin they allowed into the home,the church, and our hearts....maybe then something will change.
the rest is all a by product...counterfiet for the soul.
Has anyone read today's update on the administrative pastor's webpage? Maybe I missed a post? There is some very interesting info there.
Hi Sweet Cakes!
I think you ask a prudent question. I think saving BBC and the SBC are all tied up together....If BBC resists these movements and returns to scripture and tradition, they can have a major impact in the SBC.
Of course, jmho.
karen,
Some posts back you were talking about the rapture. Someone said that the word rapture is not in the Bible. The word "rapture" does not appear in the Bible. It was formed from the Latin rapio or rapere to potray the experienc of being "snatched away." Which is described in I Thessalonians 4:13-18. Hope this helps.
Concerned: Thanks for that post. Ezekiel was asking about it as well.
I"m hoping that NASS has not fallen into the lake while she was out ice fishing in Minnesota.
NASS, are you okaaaaaaaaaay?
( yelling into the hole in the ice)
Man... someone sure must be writing DC's letters now. That letter on the website doesn't sound anything like the one sent out to us not long ago.
I am so ready for the blog to go private. We help them too much. I don't think there would have been any acknowledgement of SG's mis information on the race sermon or the particular things Dc's covered in his letter (and other things)had they not gotten cues from OUR blog.
YES we know you have someone reading this....
All the other answers to Cakes were good so maybe we have several missions for what we have been doing here on the blog and as individuals.
lovecakes said...
Fortunately, I don't have to be evangelical in my path--you believe what you know in your heart to be relevant and of benefit and I'll do the same.
We appreciate your empathy with the difficulties BBC has faced, particluarly with the impact of the PW scandal on the congregation. And though as Christians we believe it is to your own spiritual benefit to embrace Christ as Savior and Lord, I'm sure you have realized that many on this blog also understand the importance of recognizing your own freedom to believe as you choose.
This is in keeping not only with American principle, but with a key Baptist doctrine which was influential in the development of our country's Bill of Rights. That doctrine is called "soul competency", which has been described elsewhere "thusly, and like so":
"in matters of religion, each person has the liberty to choose what his/her conscience or soul dictates is right, and is responsible to no one but God for the decision that is made.
A person may then choose to be a Baptist, a member of another Christian denomination, an adherent to another world religion, or to choose no religious belief system, and neither the church, nor the government, nor family or friends may either make the decision or compel the person to choose otherwise. And, a person may change his/her mind over time."
I am a fallable human being, and it would be foolish to insist that my path is superior.
As Christians, we admit out own fallibility as well. And it would indeed be foolish to insist that one way is superior to another if all we had to go on was fallible human opinion or experience. But suppose that once could have confidence that there was indeed one true God, and that He did have a particular path to Himself in mind, and that He provided clear instructions on that path via communications that could logically and historically be demonstrated to be of divine origin? Would it not then be foolish not to consider what He has revealed to be superior?
I believe we are spiritual beings, but that diadactic approaches to faith cause suffering in personal relationships, in communities, and on the world stage.
I couldn't locate a definition to the word "diadactic". I am familiar with "didactic", meaning intended to instruct (particularly in moral matters), and with "dialectic", meaning using logic to investigate truth -- but I'm not sure if you meant one of those words. If so, I can't see how moral instruction or logical inquiry could be distinguished from our nature as spiritual beings or could be blamed for the suffering you mentioned. You'll have to help me out with that.
I guess I'm asking, do many of you dovetail the downfall of Bellevue with PD, NA, CP, ADHD, AT&T, STP, etc. (ok, my snarky sense of humor again)? Because if you do--yo, fight one battle at a time, lovey-dovies, in my probably flawed opinion. Are you trying to save those people stubbling into PD & co. (ha) or the SB tradition?
From what I've observed on this blog, there are some who see the current issues at BBC as more focused on the actions and attitudes of particluar individuals in leadership (Pastor SG, Admin Pastor DC, Former Minister PW). And there are those who see those problems as symptions of larger issues, who tend to equate PD, etc., with the downfall of Bellevue and with many of the problems in SB life in general. But in both of these views, the solution is seen in adherence to and practice of the truths of God's Word. So ultimately, whatever is viewed as the primary cause, the cure is agreed upon -- individual and corporate repentance, utter dependance upon God through Christ Jesus, and trust in and obedience to His teachings. To see that done is the only real battle being waged.
Churchmouse said, "Reply: Ima, what we need are some alternative sources for the things we are buying at Lifeway. I thought of Family Bookstores, but they have about the same thing as Lifeway. Bellevue's bookstore is the same."
Reply: Okay Mouse, give me some idea of what it is you need to go there to purchase? We will work on this...
Del said...
Questions concerning the SBC messenger rules can be found on the SBC Web site under "constitution & Bylaws. Bylaws item 8 defines messenger election. Check it out.
Thanks very much, Del. I just read the SBC constitution & bylaws. Bylaw 8 says that messengers are elected by their churches and includes information on how questions are handled regarding credentials (validity) of messengers. But it doesn't give any rules regarding how a local church elects the messengers, and neither do the rest of the bylaws or the constitution. It will be interesting to see what sort of response you get to your inquiry; I hope you will share it with us.
This brings me to what ...
padroc said...
You and I may be some of the least qualified to write about what "is and is not" relating to the management of the convention
I don't know about you, but I'm sure you're right about me! I was just going on hearsay and some limited experience ... but now that I've read the relevant documents, I can say that I still think my previous statements were accurate. :)
but my understanding is that the convention has an extensive set of bylaws, which do impose on local churches to conform and adhere to certain of the SB Convention bylaws in order to participate.
There are some direct and implied statements regarding messenger qualifications in the bylaws, but nothing I could see about how the church elects them and whether the electing church has to follow Roberts' Rules or even its own bylaws. If you read them, please let me know if I missed anything.
Considering your point; one may not be required to be a duly elected Messenger to participate in denominational governance but must be to participate in an official capacity at the annual convention.
The official capacity of messengers at the convention meeting is to raise and vote on items brought to the floor. The duties of the various committees are not carried out as part of the convention proceedings per se; those duties take place mainly throughout the year before the meeting (in making decisions and recommendations, proposals, selecting nominees, etc.). Then any business from those committees that needs to be brought before the convention is raised at the annual meeting. Nothing in the bylaws indicates that a person has to be a messenger to serve on the committies and agencies of the SBC (but it is stated that a person has to be "eligible" to be a messenger -- that is, the have to be a member of a Southern Baptist church that can send messengers to the convention).
Personally, I think Dr. Mike Spradlin would accept election by a band of thieves and gluttons without concern as he, not being a fellow comrade in sin, would, while walking in an upright manner, approved as unto the Lord, accept God’s appointment.
I'm not sure that we can assume that election by vote of a congregation is an indication of appointment by God (except in the sense that God ordains all things, even wrong, to accomplish His good purposes). Regardless, I do not suppose to speak for what Dr. Spradlin would do; only that I would hope and expect he would act in keeping with his demonstrated character and integrity. He might choose to look upon a technically improper election as similar to meat sacrificed to idols ... that is, something which others are doing wrong but which involves no wrong on his part. In that case, he might choose to participate, knowing his own conscience was clean, or he might choose to decline for the sake of those who would consider the appointment invalid. I have my suspicions as to which way he would approach that, but I won't speculate on that here. I do hope, however, he is considering these matters carefully.
The quality of the electors nor the impropriety of their electoral process is of NO concern since the will of the Lord is being accomplished. Remember, God can and does use both good and evil for His purposes. One of our mistakes is that we pretend to know which is good and which is evil.
Good results do not justify evil acts, even though God uses our wrong to accomplish His good. We might not always have proper discernment on good and evil, but we can know when something just isn't right, like a church administration refusing to follow its own bylaws or claiming to be using Roberts' Rules and then doing so only to the extent that it suits them.
Oh what fun is governance!
Ain't it the truth? But I'd better come up with something funny to post soon, or NASS will think the old junkster has gone into hiding again!
concerned,
Actually I posted that verse for someone who had been reading the blog, but couldn't post. I think ezekiel was one of the players in the rapture discussion.
Good info to know, though.
Thanks!
Karen
SOTL: Maybe the ice melted and she's now "swimming with the fishes!" Oh No! Nass....are you okaaaayyyy?
Hello sheeps!
NASS is indeed ice fishing and is scheduled to return to the golden NBBCOF keyboard Monday! However, I will check in and publish comments again tomorrow, so keep 'em coming!
I hear the weather in Memphis has been beautiful this weekend. Get out and enjoy it while it lasts!
Sorry for the inconvenience of comment moderation, but you know how it is... trolls and all.
NBBCOF
P.S. I'll send y'all some ice!
Thanks, Nass. Glad you know you are okay! ;)
gmommylv,
I had already come to the conclusion that DC was haveing a very hard time covering for SG, you know, like whoever was appointed to cover for Bill Clinton. Must be a terrible job. Trying to keep one's foot out of one's mouth. Just like Clinton thought, no one can control a loose cannon. DC may be so distraught that someone is writing for him now. The "Circus" goes on.
Now, everyone the world over can see for themselves how honest and open they are with info that the church membership has asked for, for months. You know they have to build a new image. My,my,I wonder if the blog gave them this idea also?
Junk,
Thanks for your response regarding the SBC questions. You have helped clear up a few things for me.
I type hunt-and-peck and so I am continually revising as my thoughts are running on ahead of me in between letters which makes dialoging protracted and strenuous. One of these days I'll get “Naturally Speaking” on this computer and that should make my blog life "come alive". Ha
Yea with the funny stuff.
And what happened with this blog last night? At noon today there was a new topic leading to a Yahoo business advertising add? I posted a comment and nothing all day. Mmmm?
Padroc
Good evening (May 18), or maybe tomorrow before this posts.
Now it may be Monday when NBBCOF returns from R&R.
10:30pm May 19, 2007
lovecakes said...
Hey y'all,
“(You know I love you, Ima. Maybe I kid around too much.) Do you think mainstream Christianity is moving away from y'alls own core articles of faith? Is this a struggle for the soul of the Southern Baptist creed?
I don't really understand the conflict. The shame that has befallen Bellevue is shared in communities that are Catholic, Mormon, Krishna consciousness (bankrupted them), Buddhist, etc. And like clockwork, the same sort of "under the blood" justifications (whatever suits their creed),reliance on strengthening loyalties, and eliminating speech challenging to authority.”
4:49 PM, May 18, 2007
My comments:
Saying that you don’t really understand the conflict is the “kind” and “flavor” of personal honesty which, I think is missing from the ranks. Many talk and act as if they understand but when pressed by the unpredictability of conflict loose all sense of direction, charity and levity. This behavior works to reveal the true depth of their understanding and the breadth of their preparedness. Of course, being honest in this way is noble and attractive but without an appropriate expression of passion and determination to obtain an understanding with which to engage the members of the world community we are simply, (in my opinion), doing some intellectual posturing for an audience and more likely for ourselves.
I think we, should try to understand. We should try to apprehend that which we can not comprehend. As a, common-to-all-creatures, starting point, we should try to apprehend where we came from. Some individuals have spent the majority of their lives devoted to the study if our origins so we would not have to start from scratch. The information available is vast. One organization, which has made significant contribution to this field, is Creation Research, founded by Ken Hamm. I found there considerable work, which one would expect to be founded on opinions, suppositions, mental and factual leaps, to be robust in testable, factual, historically accurate information. They do have a website by a similar name which may be of interest. Considering Albert Einstein’s observations mentioned in a recent, (Jan – Feb 2007), Time magazine article may also be enlightening.
Having personally arrived at some conclusions about our origins the next step would be to examine what happened to “mess it all up”. How come we are imperfect? Were we ever flawless? What happened to our flawlessness. We can see elements of perfection all around us yet nothing seems to work perfectly for very long. Try answering the question: Where did imperfection come from?
With those two issues “in the bag” the next question which deserves careful consideration is: What are we doing here? Or What is our (my/your) purpose?
Moving right along with those three issues understood and or apprehended the next question is: After this what? And: So what?
But, what you may have noticed is missing, is context for these questions. The following question when answered will provide just that. This one fundamental, context providing question, which when answered, will either provide an eternal solid foundation of unchanging truth or a shifting circumstantial foundation of relative truth for the answers to the above questions. You get to decide which is real in this realm and in this time and space and then go about experiencing the results of your decision.
That question is: Do or did we create God or gods? OR: Did a personal, almighty, sovereign creator God, create us in His image? Your answer, will under gird or mock your answer to “So what?”.
“Understanding” here we come.
Should you, after you have accomplished much of the above, arrive at the answer that God created mankind, then and only then can you begin to “understand the conflict” which is affecting so many Christians around the world. You see, the very essence of the Lord Jesus, which is truth, is being perverted. Think about this. History has recorded that Christians have not burned at the stake for the sake of their creeds or a lie. I wonder who it is who would willingly knowingly die for a lie? Yet many have died for the un-perverted truth that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah / Redeemer).
Cakes,
Having come from “Transcendental Meditation on the ocean of reality is love”, there was a day, as it were, when all that I was and all that I had become and all that I anticipated doing and becoming washed up on the shores of reality and was left in the sun to dry as the tide of my beliefs retreated. It was there in desperation that the profound order in the universe began to “talk” to me. Many years later, having listened and dialoged and cleverly mocked every religion and their door-to-door salesmen, I found myself face to face with the truth. What was unique for me is that I had no desire to go near any kind if church. They had their crutch and I had mine. “Whatever you want to label it…. Go ahead; it made no difference to me.” Yet, somehow my best rationalizations and reasonings continued to fall apart. Again and again my truth, twisted, writhed, withered and died. And then there was Jesus. Who He is. What He did. What actually happened to him. What had been said about him 700 years before, coming specifically true. Being seen by so many after having been bodily resurrected. The world transforming response to: His; perfect life, atoning death, bodily resurrection and ascension to Heaven culminating in the sending of the Holy Spirit into the lives of those who believe on him and his coming again. Maybe all religious mumbo-jumbo to you now, very much akin to other religious mumbo-jumbo but wait…. Maybe not.
I would like to believe that I figured all this out and that I came to some kind of intellectual decision for which I could take credit but that is just not so. Do you want to understand? If so, then do only this one thing and save the above quest for later. Sincerely ask this one question, but in your own words, “God, if you truly exist I want to know. I don’t know how you could do that but I am ready to find out. Today would not be too soon. If you’re really listening, Thanks”
The beginning of each journey is always begun with one “step”. And as you have seen, the beginning of an answer is most often another question. I have found that there is one question about which other questions are an impertinent distraction and irrelevant and that is: God, are you there and are you listening?
For the love of Jesus,
Padroc
I sent an email to the SBC registration 5/17/07 and received an electonic receipt, but as of today no response regarding improper election of messengers so I sent another urgent message. Will post as soon as I receive a response.
Ima said: Okay Mouse, give me some idea of what it is you need to go there to purchase? We will work on this...
Reply: Hmmmm. Let's do that. I run in Lifeway:
1. to grab a gift and card for a Christian friend. This is ususally a book, with a bookmarker or one of those pretty little scripture cards, or maybe a music CD or a book on CD.
2. for Christmas gifts for my family - ususally Bibles, Bible studies, commentaries, reference books, children's books, etc.
* * *
I know Barnes and Nobel carries a pretty good selection of Christian books. We can easily keep up wtih our Christian fiction books there.
They carry Bibles and some reference books, but not a very big selection.
Do you have a good source of Christian music? Best Buy, Cats, Walmart, and Target have a limited selection of Christian music.
This may require a little bit of *planning ahead* mixed with a pinch of sacrifice. I can do that, Ima. =)
In DC's May 18th "update", he stated "I’m excited we will be formalizing our shared values and goals as a team. We have a lot to learn from one another as we try to better safeguard ourselves . . "
'our shared values and goals' - what about Christian values?
'learn to better safeguard ourselves' - is that corporate speak for making a plan to cover the evils of the power mongers? a plan to make sure you don't get caught?
Very telling language.
"in matters of religion, each person has the liberty to choose what his/her conscience or soul dictates is right, and is responsible to no one but God for the decision that is made.
A person may then choose to be a Baptist, a member of another Christian denomination, an adherent to another world religion, or to choose no religious belief system, and neither the church, nor the government, nor family or friends may either make the decision or compel the person to choose otherwise. And, a person may change his/her mind over time."
Ah, well said and a little like what I said. I guess you can take the Southern Baptist out of church, but...
"Suppose that one could have confidence that there was indeed one true God, and that He did have a particular path to Himself in mind, and that He provided clear instructions on that path via communications that could logically and historically be demonstrated to be of divine origin? Would it not then be foolish not to consider what He has revealed to be superior?"
I'm cool with that; but, the assertion that something is logical in religion, that it is historically validated, are forever points in dispute between skeptics and true believers (of any fundamentalist path. Well, ok, not forever in some theocratic countries).
The point is, in relation to others who, like me, are given to fallability, living lives rooted in other traditions and core world views--I have no divine wisdom to impart. I do try cultivate empathy, patience, compassion and an open heart--those are values that are as close in hand as one's will to pluck them. But so few do. I won't pretend to know what lay ahead on the other side of the veil. Any foolishness, enmity, suffering, moral justification or malice derived of faith are below the pale for me.
"I couldn't locate a definition to the word "diadactic". That's because I am nothing without spell check. I guess I meant didactic in the sense of being strident--you know, if your truth is different from my tuth, there will be bad consequences. I mean--this will probably sound like heresy to you--but humility demands watching judgement of fellow beings, and strident religions generate frictions.
I have them in my family. I have been blotted from my own older brother's life over difference of religion. I haven't seen him in just past three years now and I figure never again. For nothing. Of course, that does not indict Christ or Christianity, but, believe me, I know the definition of stident.
In the world, no reason to reinterate the murder, mahem and war perpetrated in the name of God.
"If so, I can't see how moral instruction or logical inquiry could be distinguished from our nature as spiritual beings or could be blamed for the suffering you mentioned. You'll have to help me out with that."
Hopefully, the above explains a little.
You are very nice, Junk. Thanks.
NASS is back behind the golden keyboard, sheeps! Now, behave yourselves.
NASS is back behind the golden keyboard, sheeps! Now, behave yourselves.
reply: What? We got new rules now? :)
I missed y'all, but you should have seen the stack of letters I sent out this morning! Taking a break from the blog makes me a good assistant! Go figure!
karen
I received the reply regarding messengers from the SBC Credentials committee. But first let me explain the question I sent to them. My church's situation in no way mirrors BBC but the messenger election in my church, yet to take place, may not follow our bylaws exactly so the question to the SBC was, "If my church doesn't follow our bylaws in electing messengers can I be disqualified as a messenger after I get to the convention?" The "appropriate person" noted in their response would normally be the church clerk.
*************************
REPLY:
"The situation you have described is not typically addressed by the
Credentials committee at the Convention. If your church is has
contributed financially through the Cooperative Program over the last
year, and if you have a messenger card signed by the appropriate person
at your church, I see no reason why you would have any problem
registering".
*****************************
So the responsibility for validating the credential card falls on the church clerk or "appropriate person".
If a messenger pre-registers as I have done in the past, when you get to the convention you go to the pre-registration desk with your church letter and they issue the official messenger name tag, voting cards, schedule, and a resolution pamphlet with the resolutions to be voted on during the convention.
So an objection to a messengers credentials would have to be brought to the Credentials committee at the convention and I'm sure they would require an abundance of proof to disqualify a messenger.
Padroc said,
The beginning of each journey is always begun with one “step”. And as you have seen, the beginning of an answer is most often another question. I have found that there is one question about which other questions are an impertinent distraction and irrelevant and that is: God, are you there and are you listening?
Reply;
Thank you for your post. May I comment?
Even if God did not exist, I would choose to live my life according to the instructions given in His Word. It is the perfect Way to experience life to it the richest and fullest deminsions
Has anyone heard anything about the "meeting" yesterday? Did the group of delegates get approved? Was there any discussion on that or anything else?
I see where the Administrative Pastor's page was finally updated Friday.
From the letter comes this quote:
"Thank you for ordaining me to be a part of this exciting time in our church."
Is that why we ordain ministers now? To be a part of an "exciting time"? Funny, I thought it was because one is oh, say... called to preach.
mom4 said
Has anyone heard anything about the "meeting" yesterday? Did the group of delegates get approved? Was there any discussion on that or anything else?
Piglet says:
I was not there but a friend of mine was in attendance so I'll repeat what she told me - I'm surprised nobody has posted on it.
Len Brower (sp?) said that our bylaws state that we should be having monthly business meetings so why was this a special meeting and why was it not held at a time when all could attend since half the church was in Sunday School.
Bryan Miller responded that the church body was given 3 weeks notice of the meeting and a quorum was present.
Len asked when the next monthly business meeting was scheduled. BM said that he would have to ask the board of directors. So Len said "So if I call the board of directors they will tell me when the next monthly business meeting is?" BM said he would have to contact the board of directors.
I don't know Len but I applaud him for standing on the issue of monthly business meetings.
I hope I got my facts straight. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
I use to be in SS w/ Len Brower...along with several other people that have been standing with us.
I haven't been in touch with him or his wife in a while but I am not surprised that he took the position he did.
Thanks Len!
So I take it all the messengers were approved?
Piglet,
I don't know why Bryan Miller would direct ANYONE to the Board of Directors for a matter on church governance. They have absolutely nothing to do with it at all. It looks like another stall tactic to keep from addressing the issues at hand. They are getting themselves deeper into legal trouble if they don't clean up their act (unless it's already too late?).
been redeemed
Aren't they untouchable???? No accountability like SG???
I was not there, but I am sure that people were who knew that the Board of Directors had absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. From what I heard, not a soul stood up to correct Bryan Miller and for the life of me, I know not why? These are serious lies being told by the leadership. There are many men who are in positions of power and they have a very tight grip on the reins of the church. This is not the scriptural model for a church. They will answer mightily for their deceptions, before God and man before all of this is over, and so will those who failed to call them on it. If you know to do right and don't, it is sin just as if you had been the one telling the lies.
NBBCOF
The messengers were approved.
Been Redeemed
Perhaps BBC should receive many calls today asking for the board of directors and information as to the next monthly meeting....
Piglet,
If it weren't for bombarding the poor switchboard lady, I would have already insisted upon it. We need to contact the Board members at home or work if possible. Numbers please anyone??
been redeemed
Where have you been hiding??? I like the way you think.
gml,
I have been out of pocket for a while, just checked back in today to see if anyone had repented yet. From the sounds of yesterdays meeting, I guess not!
It is very comforting to know that the Lord is working, even though we do not see the evidence at this time. I have peace and assurance that this will all work for His will and His glory.
Mouse said, "This may require a little bit of *planning ahead* mixed with a pinch of sacrifice. I can do that, Ima. =)"
Reply: See? It can be done...we DO NOT HAVE TO SUPPORT LIFEWAY!!! We need to let them know we do not want the FILTH that they sell!!!
Please STOP BUYING FROM LIFEWAY!
Ima and Churchmouse: I shop online at Christianbook.com. Granted, they still have some of the "junk" but not under the aupices of SBC. They have great deals, quick delivery, and super customer service. I realize you pay shipping, but with gas the price it is, I think you just might come out ahead with shipping!
beenredeemed: Repent? We are still praying, aren't we? Yesterday in my SS lesson, the lesson was the "judge not" but it lead into a deep discussion of church discipline and Matt. 18. All familiar territory for those of us here, isn't it? However, I found it interesting that in my traditional, conservative SBC church, the consensus was that Matt. 18 is not practiced enough and church discipline needs to make a comeback. Church discipline is not to embarrass or alienate; it is to restore a fellow believe. Also we discussed how sin in the church impacts the entire church and every time we look the other way, evil gets a stronger foothold. We also discussed how pride was the root. That seems to me the real reason why repentance is so rare.
This was posted on the "True stories from our Lives blog" this afternoon.
At 1:36 pm this afternoon, a member of this blog was physically assaulted by an "upstanding, longtime member" of Bellevue Baptist Church.
Many in our group have been receiving threats from both high-ranking staffers as well as from members who hold a lot of influence within the Gaines administration.
We never thought someone would act on those threats, especially when we read the names that went along with such threats.
The assaulted member of this blog has pressed charges against this "upstanding, longtime member" of Bellevue Baptist Church. There were three witnesses to the accosting.
Because of the hateful and uncontrollable way in which the supporters of Steve Gaines have threatened (and now have acted against) the members of this blog, we will be pulling it down.
People like Mike Bratton who use veiled language on their blogs to say that only those in opposition to Steve Gaines make threats on people's lives and the like are very wrong. It is on both sides and has been since this stupid mess began. As far as I know this is the first action against someone heinous enough to involve an ambulance as well as charges pending.
Please keep the blogger and his family in your prayers as well as the aggressor. I am certain when you see who the person was that accosted the blogger you will be in as much shock as the rest of us have been since we heard the news.
The person who acted in assaulting the blogger had sent three threatening emails since the inception of this blog. There was also one incident of yelling that happened in the foyer about 2 months ago in which this person made awful remarks to the blogger, his wife, and their two children.
Nothing was done then.
Calls have been placed to the pastor and his administration, and as of 4pm, not one phone call has gone out to the blogger or his family. We view this as arrogance, and it is horribly sad.
Thanks to all who read and posted on this blog. Please keep fighting the good fight but for heaven's sake don't do it physically.
Due to this offense, we who post here and are members of Bellevue are immediately removing our membership. It is no longer a safe place spiritually or physically.
God bless you all and thank you again.
Sincerely,
Don Lumley
don_lumley@hotmail.com
4:35 PM, May 21, 2007
A NEW TOPIC HAS BEEN DEVOTED TO "ASLANSOWN'S" POST. PLEASE MOVE UP!
Thank you, "aslan," for bringing this to our attention.
Karen, your comments have been moved to the new thread.
NBBCOF
Please forgive how crude this sounds but I don't know how to make it sound better....
When you have a leader that encourages men previously considered "gentlemen"...
to climb over no trespassing fences...
to act like thugs to shut up someone that says AMEN to loudly...
when the leader is low class enough to arrogantly mock what has been considered a flagship church in public...
when the Sr pastor and newly ordained CEO lie from the pulpit with no shame...
when 15 year old girls...no matter what rebellion they have or have not acted out....are cussed and cuffed...
when the leader openly throws tantrums in front of men once considered "gentlemen" and those men continue to cover for him...
WHY SHOULD WE BE SURPRISED that these "men" have now become physical.
There is no restraint or
accountability. The SR "pastor " is no gentleman
and these men under him are not men.
Brutes and Bullies are controling BBC.
How will this new low for BBC be spun for the non thinkers and blind followers????????
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