Time is of the essence as the ordination is scheduled for this Sunday, February 25th!
A petition to postpone the ordination of David Coombs until certain questions are resolved is now available to sign at Postpone the Ordination.
The petition reads as follows:
Postpone the Ordination of David Coombs
In accordance that all things be done honestly in the sight of all men, we believe that there is a discrepancy between what had been reported to the Commercial Appeal concerning the openness of the records of the Church and the actual behavior that David Coombs has presented both by letter and personal contact.
In accordance with the mandate by the Church to leave "no stone unturned" in the investigation surrounding a case of sexual child abuse, we believe that David Coombs was negligent in failing to interview the victim.
By report of and the confirmation by witnesses of his response to a dear lady who confronted him with the statement, "Pedophilia thrives in secrecy," following the investigative report presented to the Church, we believe that David Coombs has exhibited a lack of compassion and empathy that is necessary for the ministry.
It is our conclusion that it would be in the best interest of Bellevue Baptist Church to postpone the ordination of David Coombs to the ministry. We are in agreement with these and other issues in whole or part and that has caused us to petition the church on this matter.
You may sign anonymously, but it would be preferable if you sign with your real names as anonymous signatures cannot be verified. A place to leave your comments is provided, and I would encourage everyone who signs to comment as well.
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552 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 552 Newer› Newest»Bob Barker
Ouch! That's gonna leave a mark, but opinions are what we are here for, no matter how Simon Cowellesque they may be.
The only point of offense in your post was the reference to the "joke" of the church. The truth of the matter is that there is absolutely no "joke" to be had in all of this. I know what you meant, laughing at the pettiness of some on both sides, so my response was just prompted by my thought that there is really nothing funny here. Now, if someone finds humor or satisfaction in any of it, I do pity them deeply!
Dee,
I did read the post you suggested, actually I had read it last night but reviewed it prior to posting my comments. I am not one who gets excited about conspiracy theories with the sole purpose of protecting the pastor. Suffice it to say that there is more to the story regarding this situation than has been reported. Personally I am a full disclosure person who doesn't mind all the cards being on the table. But I don't have to worry about persons later bringing civil actions against me for speaking out. I wish that there were more openness and transparency but these are delicate issues laced with deep emotional feelings.
It was written that victim support was not addressed but that is subject to interpretation. The committee provided that Bellevue would pay for Christian counseling for anyone affect by PW and this situation.
I still am looking for this alleged cover-up commited by the committee. So much is subject to interpretation....just like in sports, it depends if the call if for your team or not as to whether it is accepted as truth. Dee, just note the times that people who tend to be supportive of the leadership like myself are attacked for our comments. Then note the vicious personal attacks that come from SOTL and others on David Coombs and others in leadership. This is always followed by a rousing 'way to go' attitude. What's Christ like in that? Are we not to love each other? Are there a rule that you can't hold one another accountable?
Karen, when you said...
"Thanks Dee! You're just full of sunshineyness today, huh?"...I thought, "If only she could see me now." I am sitting in a fairly dark bedroom at this computer, half-well (looking at the glass in a positve way), with ice-cold hands and feet, aching shoulder, coughing, thirsty, hair sticking out all over the place, and still in my pajamas. I would have gotten dressed to go for a short walk, but the phone keeps ringing, and I also have to do as the Lord leads me on here and answer e-mails, too. To put it bluntly, the sun would be hard to find in me in a physical way. Thank you for seeing it in my words.
Lord Jesus, thank you for Karen.
Dee
BBC senior citiizen,
Thank you for giving us another message that makes us THINK. I always appreciate your thoughts and wisdom and hope you will continue to offer more.
Lord Jesus, thank you for BBC Senior Citizen. Show him the truth that You would have him impart to us.
Dee
Esther said...
...
God's will is very evident in scripture, we don't have to 'feel' if we are in it or not. His will is following the commands and precepts of scripture. And, by the way, telling the truth is always loving. But the modern church has taught us different. To them, love is tolerance. So we insult God's Word in order to protect people's feelings. What has happened to us?"
When so many here advocate factionalism and eschew even the thought of resolution, what has happened, indeed?
1 Corinthians 1
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
--Mike
Just My Opinion has asked...
"This is always followed by a rousing 'way to go' attitude. What's Christ like in that? Are we not to love each other? Are there a rule that you can't hold one another accountable?"
******
JMO, I am not a Bible scholar, but I do know that we are to speak to each other in kindness and love and to love others as Christ has loved us. We overlook that Jesus has held the 'other person' in enough love that He would give Himself up even to death for that soul. I am as guilty of this as the next person. Forgive me, Lord. I will tell you this. I have learned and am still learning a whole lot by being on this blog. The Lord is growing me here. He can do that for all of us if we look to Him and ask Him to help us. There may be a while yet in this test for us. I hope we will all remember to look to the Cross of Jesus before we answer hastily or in an unkind manner. We may not be Quakers, quaking and shaking for the fear of God; but we should, nonetheless, be examples to any and all that pass this way. Both sides can present their thoughts, facts, and opinions on this blog without being condescending, unloving and ungodly.
Lord, please help us to be better stewards of the love you have bestowed upon us that we may be called "children of God". (John 1:12)
JESUS IS LORD! AMEN! HALLELUJAH!
Dee
BBC Senior: I have always used the verse 1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Kinda covers it all, doesn't it?
Thanks again for your thoughtful post.
Padroc,
I loved this poem so much. The fact you have memorized the first verse is a good thing. It doesn't look like it would be too terribly hard to commit the whole poem to memory. Thank you for sharing these words with us.
Lord, thank you for Padroc.
Dee (offline)
Mike Bratton,
While recently listening to an LWF tape of Adrian Rogers, the credits spoken at the end were to Mike Bratton and Sherry --(the last name I can't remember). Do you often help out at LWF? What a blessing that would be to have a calling like that! Now I see why you wouldn't want to give that up to become an attorney skilled in arguing cases in the Supreme Court (as I had seriously suggested that I felt you could do).
Lord Jesus, thank you for Mike Bratton as we are refined as by fire through this testing period.
Dee (offline for real this time)
Has anyone given thought to the "free press" David Coombs has given to IDC through his letter to BBC membership? (karen doing a happy cartwheel) Basically up to this point, IDC has gotten its points out there via its website, this blog, savingbellevue.com or word of mouth. Think about how many people just now heard of IDC because they don't have computers or whatever, but now they do know about the group - all thanks to David Coombs.
Also, in his letters he mentioned the 4 men who asked for the membership list by name. He refused to give them the membership list basically based on the "nannie nannie boo boo" concept of the records not being used in good faith and that records of members are private information. Well, by sending a copy of a letter to the entire membership of BBC with the 4 men's names attached to it, isn't David Coombs giving out private information, ie, the men's names? Granted the letters were posted on savingbellevue.com, but I go back to my previous point of not all BBC members have computer access.
Just a couple of thoughts to chew on.
karen
Karen,
For David to have orchestrated this great 'cover-up', he sure didn't hide nothing in that letter re: you remark about IDC. I hope that our church dilemma isn't the joy of those cartwheels.
CT
JMO,
My cartwheels give me joy - they're just me channeling my inner cheerleader. If I think too hard about the dilemmas at church, I tend to cry, so doing a cartwheel (even mentally) gives me a boost.
I addressed your earlier post - did you have a chance to read it?
Thanks!
Karen
Dee,
Mike Bratton has done a lot of voice over stuff and has played Caiaphus (no points off for spelling) in the Passion Play and he's also done the French chef guy (sorry, Mike - I'm drawing a blank on that one) in the SCT. He's very talented. I even heard he's kicked footballs for Memphis State - Sorry Mike, I tried not to out you on that one for sooooo long, but it's time! :)
karen
The church has denied those members with questions a forum. They have denied requests for information for months. They denied Mark Sharpe's request to address the deacons. They stopped the Communications Committee meetings because they were getting too hot. Now some childish people seek to interfere with the petition regarding Mr. Coombs' ordination by signing ridiculous names like "Mike Rotch" "Jack Bauer" "Len Kravitz" and "Fred Krueger."
It seems there is no room for honest dissent at Bellevue. Please keep signing that petition.
****The petition is picking up steam, The little engine said, "I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I KNOW I CAN****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please sign the petition to postphone the ordination of David Coombs.
Go to, Opening page of NEW BBC Open Forum, click postphone ordination
Try to contact at least one person today to do the same, and ask that person to do the same. (tell them how to get to the website, they may not know)
I contacted 2 friends this morning, regulars in BFC and worship..they knew nothing about the ordination..lets get the information out!! We're burnin daylite!!
As Dr Rogers said, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything!"
Thanks to all the brave warriors for taking a stand for Bellevue Baptist Church and standing by your convictions.
doc,
It seems that the petition police has deleted those childish posts. It is typical of the tactics we have been getting all along.
All of this could be stopped dead with honesty from the leadership, instead, we are getting their children playing spite games.
Pitiful.
2006Huldah said...
Mike Bratton,
While recently listening to an LWF tape of Adrian Rogers, the credits spoken at the end were to Mike Bratton and Sherry --(the last name I can't remember).
Her last name is "Ross."
Do you often help out at LWF?
Until last year, yes.
What a blessing that would be to have a calling like that! Now I see why you wouldn't want to give that up to become an attorney skilled in arguing cases in the Supreme Court (as I had seriously suggested that I felt you could do).
And I seriously appreciated it. But the Lord's call for me is in vocational ministry, and I walk through the doors He opens in that area. :)
Lord Jesus, thank you for Mike Bratton as we are refined as by fire through this testing period.
God bless you, Dee.
Karen said...
Dee,
Mike Bratton has done a lot of voice over stuff and has played Caiaphus (no points off for spelling)
Joseph's last, and more familiar, name was "Caiaphas." Not to worry, though--lots of folks spell Hitler's first name as "Adolph" rather than "Adolf."
in the Passion Play and he's also done the French chef guy (sorry, Mike - I'm drawing a blank on that one)
Ah, Chef Anton... Heh heh heh...
in the SCT. He's very talented.
I'm honored and blessed.
I even heard he's kicked footballs for Memphis State - Sorry Mike, I tried not to out you on that one for sooooo long, but it's time! :)
Was I backup kicker, or third-string quarterback? Oh, no, wait--wasn't I both? You'd think I'd remember more (ahem!) about playing for a Division 1-A football program.
--Mike
Karen,
Maybe since David Coombs gave out the information regarding the personal names of those asking for the information, and also gave the IDC a plug, now people know who to contact to join IDC.
:)
1 Corinthians 1
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? "
Great scripture Mike. Proves there is no unity outside of scripture. How can we speak the same thing or be joined in the same mind outside of what God says in scripture? We can't.
padroc:
Feelings come and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving;
My warrant is the Word of God,
Naught else is worth believing! "
Amen. I never trust my 'feelings' or emotions. They could be deceitful and fleeting.
bbc senior citizen,
I just read your 9:34 pm post from last night and what an awesome job you did!! What you said makes a lot of sense!!
Are You Preaching Tonight?
(with apologies to Elvis)
Are you preaching tonight?
Do you miss us tonight?
Will we manage to catch you at home?
Is some other church fair?
Is the pay better there,
that you so often wander and roam?
Do prestige and fat stipends
beguile from afar?
Do they swoon when you croon there
and strum your guitar?
Or if you're at the club,
will Joe Jernigan sub?
Tell me Steve, are you preaching tonight?
I wonder if... you're preaching tonight.
Steve, you lied when you said you loved us.
But we had no reason to doubt you.
But we'd rather go on hearing your lies,
than to go on living without you.
Though you can't feel our pains,
somewhere else is pro-Gaines!
Tell me Steve, are you preaching tonight?
All2Jesus: You've got mail.
A new petition for everyone to consider:
Sign if you think they should go
Here is what it says:
Over the preceding months we have witnessed continual inept leadership from our pastor and other senior leaders (listed below). Many of these men have been in one leadership position after another for years. I believe the only way Bellevue has any chance of healing is for each and every one of these men to resign from their jobs and relinquish their positions of leadership. Certainly some are more culpable than others. I have held many of these men in the highest esteem for years. However, for the good of the church body, they all must step aside. That is the only way trust and respect can be restored.
Bellevue existed before any of these men were born. Bellevue does not need them for its continued existence. Bellevue has plenty of other men of high character who can assume leadership positions and steer our great church back to a position of respect.
I know if Bellevue were breaking up over questions of my character I would either do everything possible to answer all questions or I would step aside for the good of the church. These men are unwilling to answer all the questions. Evidence has not been forthcoming. Over time all we have are more questions and few honest and complete answers. Therefore, it is time for these men to step aside.
Another petition was started regarding David Coombs and his ordination. That petition was a good idea, yet it does not get at the real issue. We had serious problems long before David Coombs joined the staff. The core problem is our entire slate of leaders. If we prevent David Coombs’ ordination we still have many problems to deal with. If these men step aside, we will fast be on the road to healing.
I am a regular Bellevue member. I am not a member of Integrity Does Count or any other group. Likewise I am not one of the usual suspects—Sharpe, Haywood, Saba, Emerson, Manning, Coggins, etc.—who have been treated so shamefully for daring to ask questions. I am not giving my name because my identity is irrelevant. What is important is the subject of the petition, not the man who started it.
In no particular order, the men in question are as follows:
• Steve Gaines
• Mark Dougharty
• David Coombs
• Phil Weatherwax
• Larry Ray
• Steve Marcum
• Steve Tucker
• John Caldwell
• Chuck Taylor
• Harry Smith
• David Perdue
• Charlie Brand
• Jeff Arnold
• Bryan Miller
• Jim Barnwell
Please sign this petition is you agree that these men should step down from their positions of leadership. May God bless Bellevue once again.
Sign if you think they should go
All,
Please pray before choosing to sign the above petition.
I choose not to sign.
Faith
Faith,
I agree with you. Everyone should pray over all of these matters. I've been praying for months.
Did you pray about my petition? The reason I ask if that it looks like God sure did answer your prayer about it really quickly.
I do not see any way to restore Bellevue with these men in power. This is nothing personal against them. They have become an issue and since they will not answer all the questions, the only way to resolve anything is for them to step down.
Ydoesit Matter
"Let's let this one rest for now - we need to focus on the issues at hand which directly affect BBC - one of which is preventing the ordination of David Coombs."
Thanks Karen. I am not sure how any issues can be resolved outside of following scripture.
ydoesit,
Yes, I prayed.
Faith
Y -
It's not that I am not in favor of your motion, but maybe it would be best (maybe not) to concentrate on one petition for now. There is a definite deadline to meet here. We have waited this long without petitions, let's not go petition crazy. After the events on Sunday night, perhaps address the new petition?? Not trying to argue the point...just a suggestion :)
lwood or someone who knows about ushers, please email me.
Thanks!
Karen
Esther,
You're welcome.
SOTL,
Yeah, duh! :)
And BTW, I got my 2nd nerve block this afternoon instead of tomorrow - so far so good.
Well, Bellevue national news on
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/21/southern.baptist.ap/index.html
Well, so much for the thought that the Bellevue ordeal is limited to the Memphis area only...
Wow, BBC didn't just make CNN... BBC made the front page of CNN.
Here is the link to see the CNN story with the Bellevue mention...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/21/
southern.baptist.ap/index.html
It's too bad there wasn't a link on the CNN story to the Coomb's part in the cover-up investigative report...then we would get more signage on the petition.
Quote from the CNN.com article: "Southern Baptists passed a resolution in 2002 urging its churches to discipline ministers guilty of sexual abuse and to cooperate with authorities in their prosecution."
Ok, so wasn't Steve Gaines a part of the SBC in 2002? So how can the investigation of Paul Williams be "unchartered waters" as the Investigation Report stated. The SBC charted that water in 2002.
What's the Greek word again for "hogwash?
byebelle,
Fair point about the timing.
I believe everyone should sign the Coombs ordination petition. However, that petition won't get us very far. My petition might really make things happen. I'm tired of waiting on all the deacons, these groups, and the blogs to make a difference. This has to end while we still have people attending church. Were you there Sunday morning? It was like a tomb in the 2nd service. This ship is sinking fast.
Karen: Did we just catch SG in another "mistake"? Looks like it to me.....
Now CNN. God is still moving on this don't doubt it. If there is anyone left who still believes that the leadership at BBC should not be relieved of duty keep watching.
concerned,
How many "Mulligans", "do overs" or "whoopsies" does it take to realize this ain't the guy no more? If God can be sorry that He ever chose Saul to be king, don't you think the Pastoral Selection Committee can swallow a little pride and say "whoopsie". I'll even spot them a couple! :)
karen
Attention everyone,
In no way, shape, or form does CNN have the best interests of Christ's church in mind. Looke what Ted Turner did to Jane Fonda because she professed faith in Jesus.
Don't be deceived. This is a family matter.
Karen: agreed. The million $$$ question is....will they?
ydoesit wrote...
I'm tired of waiting on all the deacons, these groups, and the blogs to make a difference.
ydoesit,
There's an 'I' problem in your post. Wait on God.
"Be strong and take heart, and WAIT for the LORD" Psalm 27:14
Y, sorry this took a while, I was away from the computer. I agree about being tired of waiting! No, I wasn't there Sunday at all. Unfortuanately, our family has been attending elsewhere. Guess we also got tired of it all. We have kids that are old enough to understand the TRUTH - therefore we made the decision to take action that was best for our family. We are still members, but our noses and nickles can't be found at Bellevue. A resolution for the whole mess can't come soon enough!
Hope,
You are so right about CNN. This is a moral issue that the world can see more clearly than the church. What does that say about the state of the church?
Wait on God to do what? Strike all these men down. What exactly do you expect? God uses men to accomplish His will every day. That is how He operates.
Lord, please have mercy on us.
Hope,
I don't have any illusions about CNN. However, the Lord is using them to spread the lies and deceit that has become normal at BBC.
concernedSBCer said...
Karen: agreed. The million $$$ question is....will they?
It'll take a mighty big throat and a big swig of sweet tea, but I think they could handle it.
Hope,
Ask Christa Brown and David Brown who had their best interest when they were being molested.
karen
I'll ask again - anyone here know about the ushers who have been either replaced or quit recently? Lwood, please email me.
Thanks!
Karen
265 and counting. The voices in the darkness that over and over again we've told by the administration don't exist are finally being heard. By Sunday there will be more than 300 maybe even 400 signatures on this petition. Tim, what is the plan for the petition before Sunday?
Quick question for anyone. Has Bellevue ever had an email service? Have you ever been able to send email to the church or staff?
Tim,
When I sent my email to Steve a while back, it had to go through Linda Glance.
I know savingbellevue.com still has the deacon email addresses up.
karen
yes. The e-mails that we have sent are the first letter of their first name, then their last name, @bellevue.org TCoggins@bellevue.org
ju,
I am going to deliver the results to the church on Friday. I will probably take several copies. It is my understanding that most of the staff is off on Friday, but I want to make sure that if they proceed that they do so with full knowledge that it is NOT "congregationally approved".
This is a great time to repost the link.
Ordination Petition
The reason that I was asking about sending an email to Bellevue was because of what is shown on the web site.
Scroll to the bottom of the page.
Bellevue's Site
It says that they do not provide email service. I was wondering if this has always been like that or if it was recently changed.
Don't quite understand the reasoning behind no e-mail service, yet you can contact the webmaster via e-mail. I have corresponded quite a bit through e-mail. Of course, this was 2005 BG
(Before Gaines)
Hope P said...
"Don't be deceived. This is a family matter."
CNN said...
"They're allowing these men to go from church to church," she (Vasquez)said. "They're not protecting the victims. They're protecting themselves."
My Dear Hope,
At what point do we stop sitting on our hands. Remember the parable of the talents - the Lord expects us to act with what he gives us, according to His Word. If we cannot follow the scriptures laid out before us, what good are we? We are no better than the leadership. Unless the Lord restrains us, we should work to right these wrongs until He comes as long as it is according to His Word, not the word of a compromised pastor and self serving leadership. No where in scripture does the Lord commend those who hide or fail to act on His commands - He even called some "lukewarm". I would hate to think I will stand before Him with the sins that beset Bellevue that He has laid on my heart and I have done NOTHING to defend His church.
Tim,
I did some research and found that they haven't ever had an email address posted for general communication. They only have the website email there for problems accessing the site.
got another cray petitioner...napolean dynamite
Tim,
When Steve Gaines first came, he read and answered all of his personal emails and opened all of his personal mail.
One person I know sent him an email early in this drama at sgaines@bellevue.org. He did reply with a "canned response. Not too long after that, Linda Glance began printing out his emails for him, sorting out the "important" ones for his viewing. I do not know what email address he has at this time, but the basic email addresses for staff was the first initial and the last name @ bellevue.org.
Those that have had trouble with their email accounts have more than likely had to have the addresses changed (sort of like sgaines or mdougharty or pweatherwax). Who knows at this point.
I am contacted thru e-mail by all the ministries I am involved with, and I am also able to e-mail them back. It has been this way for many years.
Karen,
You have mail
Byebelle said...
got another cray petitioner...napolean dynamite
Byebelle,
These petitioners have GOT to be children - teen?? maybe?? - this movie is advertised as a pre-teen movie. I would hate to be their parents if they let them watch that garbage - the accountability will be great.
I'm assuming that those names can be cleaned off of the petition. I am noticing that there are gaps in the numbers. What's that about? Are those names being deleted for being bogus?
Channel 3 just made a tease for the 10 pm news - something about Southern Baptists in the crosshairs of a victim's advocacy group - hmmmmm
MOM4 said...
Channel 3 just made a tease for the 10 pm news - something about Southern Baptists in the crosshairs of a victim's advocacy group - hmmmmm
I just saw that myself. I betcha it has something to do with Bellevue.
Karen,
You have mail :)
Sign if you think they should go
SNAP's Christa Brown's site "stopbaptistpredators.org" has 5 headlines regarding SNAP's message to SBC exec committee, with letter to US Attorney General Gonzalez. Very interesting stuff, including the press release to media, which CNN obviously picked up and moved on.
Channel 3 news gave their report at 10:07. On the news again. . . . .
http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/
Proverbs 4:16 For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall.
Proverbs 6:14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.
Proverbs 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief
Proverbs 10:23 It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.
Proverbs 11:27 He that diligently seeketh good procureth favour: but he that seeketh mischief, it shall come unto him.
Proverbs 12:21 There shall no evil happen to the just: but the wicked shall be filled with mischief.
Proverbs 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
Proverbs 28:14 Happy is the man that feareth alway: but he that hardeneth his heart shall fall into mischief.
koragg and lwood,
you have email.
Tim,
I am sure I got Steve email from that page - I didn't just make it up. Remember when I sent it? I came back to me as undeliverable even though others had used his email address just prior to my sending mine. I bet everyone and his brother was receiving email, so they took the access down.
karen
Koragg,
If CNN has us on the front page and ALL the local media outlets read this blog, surely Channel 3 snapped up the fact that the national media made mention of the SBC and their failure to do anything. You know, they haven't even spoken up about this - they know it's wrong, but they have been mum. So much like very many others who have solid, first hand information but are not willing or are afraid to speak. These people are just as bad as the leadership if they knowingly allow the faithful to suffer while the Lord's church is being destroyed. There is money flowing from the church as we speak and even Dr Rogers' legacy and his reputation has suffered and no one who knows the truth but Mrs Rogers has said a word. I wonder what it will take for them to make a stand?? Any thoughts?? (I am praying for conviction)
JMO: tried to email you as promised; no email address. :(
I just got home so I didn't know we made the front page of CNN.
BTW Karen, I didn't get your e-mail.
Don't be deceived. This is a family matter.
Correction: it WAS a family matter. It's way beyond that at this point.
And who here would really logically say, "hey, I bet CNN really wants to bless the body of Christ...?"
The shame is that we are giving them anything they feel the need to print on their front page.
Hind sight. This is long and rambling and nothing earth shattering. I needed to clear my spirit of a few things and this helped.
I would like to add a quick note to you guys. The amount of guff that I has been thrown my direction because of this petition has been emotionally draining.
How on earth do these guys expect anyone to communicate with them anyway?
If you go in a small group then you are only a handful of people.
If you communicate on the blog then you are airing the church's business in public.
If you create a petition then you are damaging the work of the kingdom.
If you proceed with legal counsel (which by the way is exactly what the church has done, make no mistake about it) then you are having church matters judged in the courts of men.
I am really beginning to wonder at what point they are going to start paying attention and come to the realization that things have got to change.
For any of you guys that are unaware, my wife and I have been at Bellevue for over 25 years. The only question that I ever asked before now was at a business meeting that the church had years ago and the uses for the downtown building were being discussed. I asked at the time if the church had ever considered branching out and operating Bellevue Baptist School Systems. In spite of the fact that there were numerous private schools at the time it seemed to be a good thought to consider and it still might be. Other than that I have been perhaps one of the most complient members in the church. This is serious stuff, however.
We can no longer call Bellevue a Christ honoring church, and contrary to popular belief it is not because I post on a blog, join a group, ask questions or start a petition. It is because we do not have Christ honoring leaders. Period. If they want to know where the problem starts and ends then they can go right now and look in the bathroom mirror. By the way, don't take my word for that open the Scripture and read it. Pray to the Lord and ask him to reveal the root of the problem. I trust Him and He is faithful in granting wisdom to those that ask with a heart willing to receive the truth.
There have been several that wonder why this is being done and the answer is quite simple. It is being done because it is the right thing to do according to Scripture. It is our responsibility to maintain the highest standards possible in the church.
This is not about my personal preferences. My foundation is solid and it would be far easier for me personally to just move on down the road. It is about Biblical standards. There are two groups that I am extremely concerned about.
One group would be those that have sacrificed to provide a church such as Bellevue to promote Spiritual growth among believers. Many of these dear people moved to be close to the church and retired in the area so that they could spend the rest of their years at Bellevue. They deserve the respect and support of those of us that have benefited over the years from their hard work. The generation of Bellevue men that I am a part of should stand shoulder to shoulder to protect the heritage of this church for them, ourselves and the generation to come. I cannot even bring myself to use the term "seniors" because it seems to have lost its true meaning these days. I prefer to think of this group of people as the true elders and spiritual giants of the church. Amen.
The second group is the generation to come. Society is already degenerative enough without having a church add to the problems that effect our youth. These kids are watching. Believe me they are. They will remember for the rest of their lives if the mottos that we so proudly proclaimed are supported at this time or not. They will know if the words, innerant, infallible, indestructible Word of God really mean anything or not. My kids will know what their dad believes. They already know what I have sacrificed in this and they know how important the truth is. Amen. If you haven't thought about the fact that your kids are looking to you to be real in your Christian walk concerning these issues then you need to. The kids at church are more informed than most of their parents. Amen.
It's on MSNBC.COM too!
koragg,
resend me your email - I think I got too many at one time and thought I was responding to you.
got all that? :)
karen
BTW, Let's notice there was a chick fight at Craigmont High School - I'd just like to point out that is my alma mater! LOL
Karen, you have mail.
Tim,
Bless your heart - And AMEN! Your intentions are pure and your heart is open to reconcilliation if only we could get both sides to listen. It is disconcerting when your pastor does not consider himself to be bound by the mandates of Matthew 18. So then what? I've said it before and I'll say it again - How were we supposed to communicate with leadership when other individuals have been so badly hurt by the leaders that profess to love them.
God Bless You, Tim. I've enjoyed working with you and will stand by you no matter what the cost. You are truly a hero in my spiritual life. Your dear wife is a wonder as well. One of my favorite songs goes thusly:
MercyMe - Hold Fast
To everyone who’s hurting
To those who’ve had enough
To all the undeserving
That should cover all of us
Please do not let go
I promise there is hope
Chorus:
Hold fast
Help is on the way
Hold fast
He’s come to save the day
What I’ve learned in my life
One thing greater than my strife
Is His grip
So hold fast
Will this season ever pass
Can we stop this ride
Will we see the sun at last
Or could this be our lot in life
Please do not let go
I promise you there’s hope
Chorus:
You may think you’re all alone
And there’s no way that anyone could know
What you’re going through
But if you only hear one thing
Just understand that we are all the same
Searching for the truth
The truth of what we’re soon to face
Unless someone comes to take our place
Is there anyone
All we want is to be free
Free from our captivity Lord
Here He comes
Chorus:
(amos breaks silence)
Mom4,
As long as SB churches continue to pump $$$ into the convention pipeline in staggering amounts, the southern baptist convention will offer only the occasional press release filled with sanctimonious 'generic' disapproval, being ever so mindful of 'local church autonomy'.
It is doubtful there will be any 'Mike Spradlin' connect-the-dots-type rebukes forthcoming from anyone on a national level(just remember $$$). Just the opinion of someone educated the 'hard way' in SBC politics.
I think its going to be hard to get the Bellevue Mafia as I like to call Gaines and his inner circle to listen. They're heads are buried so deep in the sand they can't hear or see.
I think its going to be hard to get the Bellevue Mafia as I like to call Gaines and his inner circle to listen. They're heads are buried so deep in the sand they can't hear or see.
I agree. At this point, for any of these men to do an "about face" would require swallowing A LOT of pride... (or eating a lot of crow, if you prefer).
Karen,
Thats the address I sent it to.
I'll try my alternate e-mail address and see if it works through there.
koragg
Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Proverbs 21:1 The king‘s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
padroc,
I assume your comment was directed toward me. I did not create the petition out of restless impatience (however you want to spell it). I did it because it was time for ME to do something. Others have been doing something while I watched. It felt it was my turn.
If your comment was not directed toward me, then skip over this post. If it was directed toward me, you have no idea the amount of faith I truly have. It is because of that faith that I take a stand.
Sign if you think they should go
Karen,
you have an e-mail from my Yahoo e-mail address.
Let me know if you receive it.
koragg,
got it and answered.
Gotta go to bed, folks.
God bless!
karen
koragg, but I dont wont to forget
Psalms 12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
Ecclesiastes 5:8 If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they.
Proverbs 11:5 The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness.
Tim,
Thank you for all your hard work. I know it has been draining. No matter what we do, it's wrong, in the eyes of the BBC so called leadership.
You are truly a man of integrity and we know that Jesus is watching.
You and your sweet wife are in my prayers. Thank you for allowing Jesus to use you.
God bless you, Tim Coggins! Many admire the strength of your convictions and your courage.
Sign if you think they should go
Dear Brothers and Sisters: I have been telling you that there is going to be more happening. Today you have seen victims from another states, yet Southern Baptists speaking out.
Victims are learning they don't have to be silent. They are learning they do not have to accept hummilation anymore. They are learing they don't have to be shamed into remaining silent.
JMO I saw your post defending the actions of the confused leadership of Bellevue concering the reporting laws of this CRIME. Save it and just tell it to Jesus. HE has some very specific comments and guidelines about protecting the little children. So none of us are buying your load of excuses.
Some have suggested this is a family matter and that it should be kept in the family. I TOTALLY agree with those arugments. But it is God's family we are speaking about. BBC is really insignificant when it comes to HIS family.
There is yet more coming in the days and weeks ahead. Some of you aren't going to like it. Tough. Get used to it. We as victims are uniting and standing up. Shame on those that call us names and tell us to grow up, move on or be silent. It is like a song from the past, "We have only just begun."
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
(amos breaks silence)
I know it is so easy to just scoll by scripture, especially when you have your own bible, as you may well scroll by this; but please take a moment and read this psalm. I even put it in NKJV text
73:2 But as for me, my feet had almost stumbled; My steps had nearly slipped.
3 For I was envious of the boastful, When I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4 For there are no pangs in their death, But their strength is firm.
5 They are not in trouble as other men, Nor are they plagued like other men.
6 Therefore pride serves as their necklace; Violence covers them like a garment.
7 Their eyes bulge with abundance; They have more than heart could wish.
8 They scoff and speak wickedly concerning oppression; They speak loftily.
9 They set their mouth against the heavens, And their tongue walks through the earth.
10 Therefore his people return here, And waters of a full cup are drained by them.
11 And they say, "How does God know? And is there knowledge in the Most High?"
12 Behold, these are the ungodly, Who are always at ease; They increase in riches.
13 Surely I have cleansed my heart in vain, And washed my hands in innocence.
14 For all day long I have been plagued, And chastened every morning.
15 ¶ If I had said, "I will speak thus," Behold, I would have been untrue to the generation of Your children.
16 When I thought how to understand this, It was too painful for me—
17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; Then I understood their end.
18 Surely You set them in slippery places; You cast them down to destruction.
19 Oh, how they are brought to desolation, as in a moment! They are utterly consumed with terrors.
20 As a dream when one awakes, So, Lord, when You awake, You shall despise their image.
21 ¶ Thus my heart was grieved, And I was vexed in my mind.
22 I was so foolish and ignorant; I was like a beast before You.
23 Nevertheless I am continually with You; You hold me by my right hand.
24 You will guide me with Your counsel, And afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but You? And there is none upon earth that I desire besides You.
26 My flesh and my heart fail; But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
27 For indeed, those who are far from You shall perish; You have destroyed all those who desert You for harlotry.
28 But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.
David Brown,
THANK YOU!!! from the bottom of my heart!!!
And thank your sweet wife,too.
There are more of us out there than people know. They are about to hear from us.
I caught a portion of a new story on the DCS Investigation regarding Bellevue, but I did not catch enough of it.
Did anyone else hear what was said on the story?
Front page of MSNBC.com is the same story as CNN (along with the Bellevue mention)....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/
id/17265721/page/2/
Tim and/or Karen,
In a practical sense, what is your ideal of how the events would play out to restore our church?
I ditto memphis's question. Anyone?
1st Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
Socwork, how much if any of the story did youhear?
Tim,
Thank you for standing strong! I agree with you so strongly especially about our children. They ARE watching to see if what we taught them is important enough for us NOT to ease on down the road. The last thing they want or need is more of what they get in the world from their church. At the very least,the leaders should be concerned about how this will affect our children and young people spiritually...OK,dumb thing to think in light of all that is going on... Thank you for your courage and for your sacrifice. I pray more godly men will stand before it is too late.
I cannot support the ordination of David Coombs at this time. Some of the reasons are as follows:
1) In the Investigative Team report, David Coombs said that their charge was to “leave no stone unturned.” However, the Investigative Team -- led by David Coombs -- NEVER interviewed the victim, despite a minimum of FIVE requests for a meeting with all the principles and leadership involved in this issue.
2) When a BBC member met with David Coombs on 01/25/07 to request information, Mr. Coombs replied that he was “not interested in what the Tennessee Code says.” The request was made in accordance with Tennessee Code.
3) David Coombs behavior and actions were rude when a former victim (current BBC member) requested her counseling file. David Coombs’ conduct was inappropriate and unbecoming to anybody – especially for a minister.
4) At the conclusion of the Sunday evening service on 01/28/07, David Coombs had 2 separate conversations with a former victim. The time lapse between these conversations was less than 10 minutes. In the first conversation, the former victim told David Coombs that “pedophilia thrives in secrecy;” David Coombs laughed in her face. This former victim returned with a witness to the initial conversation and confronted David Coombs a second time. Then, David Coombs DENIED he had even talked with this lady that evening…even though it occurred a mere 10 minutes earlier! I know this to be true – I was there.
I do not know whether or not David Coombs has been called by God to go into the ministry. I am not qualified to speak to this. Some have spoken of David Coombs’ integrity and past work as a lay person in our beloved Bellevue. I can only speak to what I have personally seen with my own eyes, heard with my own ears, and deducted based on his actions in recent weeks.
At a minimum, I believe the ordination of David Coombs needs to be postponed at this time. There are far too many issues dealing with the lack of integrity, transparency, and accountability within our church at this time.
Instead of moving forward with an ordination service, we need to move forward with an open business meeting in the immediate future.
memphis, I didn't hear any of it, and I tried to look on the websites of the t.v. stations and can't find anything there either... I'm still looking though. What channel were you watching?
The one with Joe Birch...
It had a picture of the church in the corner and said Bellevue Investigations across it. I also heard them say the DCS Investigation said...... and I am not sure, and I also do not want to start anything on hear, but I believe they said they found no other victims from their Investigation.
I am looking to see if I heard it right..
David Brown said...
There is yet more coming in the days and weeks ahead. Some of you aren't going to like it. Tough. Get used to it. We as victims are uniting and standing up. Shame on those that call us names and tell us to grow up, move on or be silent. It is like a song from the past, "We have only just begun."
*******
David, what a great help in time of need you are for these survivors. The Lord uses you mightily! You know, I can just imagine how I would feel if I had been hiding something like this for years--suffering with it, feeling hopeless and like there is no justice to be found. Then, out of the blue comes the news of a man, David Brown, who is fighting against this horror and getting things done with great success. How quickly would I be on the phone to you if that were me! What an indescribable relief and huge blessing it would be! You would become like a miracle cure, a defender and a strong support to me and a bridge to sanity--and all to the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. HALLELUJAH! What a calling the Lord has given you! You suffered and became more like Christ for a long time while the Lord refined you as by fire. Now, you help these brothers and sisters in the name of Jesus. How beautiful!
Lord Jesus, thank you for this valiant man of honor named David Brown. Wash every foul and dirty memory from these your children, Lord. Give them beauty for ashes as You have promised in your Word. You are our Hope and we thank You for sending us help in the person of David Brown. For Your glory and in Your Holy Name, Lord Jesus!
Amen.
Dee
I can't find anything on the news channels... oh well, if it was significant, I'm sure we'll hear about it. :)
David B.....sing it brother...!!!
Amos...you always bless me with the scriptures you post...and I always smile when you break your silence.
SOTL....we need to meet someday.
The local news repeats at 1am if you stay up late, or want to DVR it....
Tim: Thank you for your stand. Your children, and others, ARE watching. I always remember the words of the song,
"May all who come behind us find us faithful.
May the power of our devotion light their way
May the footprints that we leave
Lead them to believe.....
Thanks again.
Some encouragement for all from today's LWF devotion.
February 22
BIBLE MEDITATION:
“Jesus answered and said...if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.” Matthew 21:21
DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT:
When a nation loses its ability to discern morality, it embarks on a slippery slope toward self-destruction. Especially when it comes to basic sexual morality. When a nation turns its back on the commands of God, He will say, “That’s the last step. I wash My hands. You asked for it. You got it.” America is in a crisis and unless we have a moral rebirth, we will join the graveyard of the nations. It’s time to wake up. Time is passing. It’s time to look up. Jesus is coming. It’s time to sober up. Satan is working. It’s time to pray up. Mountains need moving.
Thank you Amos for the use of Scripture -- I might add that the reference to Psalm 72 was also one of the verses that Jonathan Edwards had included within the renowned sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God."
Thank you Tim for your courageous work that is making a difference for the Kingdom. I will continue to pray for you and others who have a more visible role in this protracted spiritual battle. We wrestle not against flesh and blood!
I did want to comment on the ordination. Both my wife and I have indicated that this is not the right time in our church for this. After signing the petition, we went back to review the letters from Mr. Coombs. I was again reminded of how far we as a church have fallen.
In Mr. Coombs' February 9, 2007 letter to three church members, he states, "It is only logical that your intent is to furnish this type of information on a more personal basis to all 30,000 members of the Church, if you obtain the requested records and obtain the mailing addresses of all Church members, so as to further your desire to create disharmony." That Mr. Coombs would accuse these men of having a desire to create disharmony while they pursue truth is an outrage. We cannot create harmony in our midst without reconciliation around truth.
Mr. Coombs continued his outlandish comments by stating, "It can hardly be said that the dissemination of accusations, innuendos, and matters out of context to the members of a religious organization to foment discord can satisfy the good faith/proper purpose basis required by the law." Who has now just disseminated accusations to BBC at large regarding the motives of Messrs. Saba, Coggins, and Green?
Let him who has ears to hear, let him hear --- the true BBC is not an organization that looks first to manmade law in Nashville to define its purpose and conduct. The true BBC is an organism -- a local manifestation of the Body of Christ that the precious Holy Spirit of God has called together for such a time as this.
Jim Haywood has a wonderful message on SavingBellevue this morning. Click on..Keep our eyes on our Savior "Jesus", the rescue of the horses in the Netherlands is the message.
You will cry and rejoice at the same time. A small group led hundreds to safety.
Isn't this what Jim Haywood, Tim Coggins, Riad Saba, David Green, Josh Manning and many others have done for us. Thank you all for being the new "forerunners" of Bellevue Baptist Church and requiring man to be accountable to our Lord Jesus Christ.
David brown,
Re: the article in today's CA. My hat is off to you and SNAP for the stand that ya'll are taking.
Commercial Appeal article.
Thanks, David and Christa for addressing this issue with the SBC. It is critical that we face this problem and set in place guidelines and solutions for it, "autonomous" or not.
That being said, this statement frustrated me:
"We're glad we can finally put this unfortunate incident behind us and achieve some sense of closure," Coombs said.
Maybe closure to the PW situation (although I don't believe we'll ever really know for sure) but not closure to the inept leading of those in charge. I am so thankful DCS found no other victims; yet, I can't help but think we have victimized the one person over and over again by the failure to properly address all the events, not just the abuse. My prayers are daily with him and his family.
As was so beautifully posted yesterday: we have to stay on track. The integrity of the leaders is paramount and effects the entire body. The using of scripture to guide and admonish is sorely needed. The humility to admit sin and turn from those ways is needed by leadership.
Thank you Amos for wise reminders from the Word.
And thank you Dee; you are such a blessing to us all. Keep praying!
bepatient,
In response to your inquiry last night. See 25+yrsatbbc outline that he/she's posted numerous times. That should just about cover what I'm after.
Thanks!
karen
Sign if you think they should go
We can begin to heal if they all go. Don't let a small group of men drive the entire church into a ditch. They need to step aside so trust can be restored.
Sign if you think they should go
Just My Opinion,
We never talked about my questions in this post yesterday. Please answer when you get a chance.
Thanks! Karen
Karen said...
just my opinion said...
"But I am clear on my understanding that we have men in lay leadership positions that haven't compromised their stand. Just because you don't read a public admonishment about Bro. Steve doesn't mean that behind closed doors that our lay leadership is not voicing their opinions to the pastor. These men understand that somethings are best handled in a more private manner and not for public consumption."
Do you seriously believe that lay leadership has Steve's ear? Are they being heard? Mark Sharpe wasn't heard - his property was trespassed upon, his children were scared when 4 large men showed up at the door unannounced, he's been called names and accused of being responsible for sending people to hell. Mark Sharpe was in lay leadership and he was cut off at the knees by the pastor who is supposed to love all the sheep. Who are these lay leaders that are speaking to Steve? Riad Saba, Carol Pemberton, Pam Gremillion, Josh Manning, etc., etc. have all tried (heck, I sent my own email with no response yet). Are these people not important enough to be listened to? Who exactly has Steve been listening to? The whole deal at BBC wasn't made public until all private means of communication were exhausted.
Also, in your post you say "I will be the first to admit that Bro. Steve has made a lifetime of mistakes at Bellevue."
Well, Hallelujah! I am so glad you said that. I ask you this: How many mistakes should we as BBC members allow before it becomes evident that Steve is inept at running a church such as BBC? When is enough, enough? In your opinion, of course. Thanks!
karen
11:09 AM, February 21, 2007
In the CA article, David Coombs said this: "We're glad we can finally put this unfortunate incident behind us and achieve some sense of closure."
Hm... wishful thinking?
Unfortunate incident?
I'm not feeling a sense of closure, anyone else?
socwork: "Unfortunate incident" = oops, we got caught making a "mistake"
closure = can't we all just get along?
Ah, thanks for the translation concerned. I think it's an accurate one.
The phrase "unfortunate incident" is absolutely appalling given what he is actually referring to.
And who is going to be getting a sense of closure now? The actual victim of the molestation? Or the leadership of the church? I say neither.
I'm a little confused...
The article in the CA stated:
Rob Johnson, director of communications for DCS, said the two-month investigation was initiated after reports of the alleged abuse appeared in the press and online.
"We wanted to see if there was any evidence that children were at risk," Johnson said. "The Special Investigations Unit determined that any such allegations were unfounded."
UNFOUNDED??
The FACT that PW raped his OWN SON and then CHOSE to remain in a ministerial position on staff at BBC for 17 yrs. IS EVIDENCE that children were "at risk". I don't need an investigation to reveal that fact! Any time that PW was in that church when children were present put the children "at risk"! Remember Rachel's story of her son being molested in the men's room at church during choir practice?
AND, the fact that no other victims were found during the "exhaustive" investigation is NOT something that should cause us to breathe a sigh of relief. Anyone who has ever had experience with child sexual abuse could observe the way BBC and DCS have handled this situation and not be surprised that other possible victims didn't come to light.
Considering that IF there are others, and they are still minors under their parents authority, the descision to keep such information "In the family" could have been made by parents.
It is also possible that a victim may have been afraid to come forward because of the cruel, insensitive attacks by some in the church "family" and leadership toward others who so "DIVISIVELY" demanded that such issues be dealt with according to SCRIPTURE!
Also, as an abuse victim myself, I personally was threatened by my abuser and was told that physical harm would come to others in my family should I ever tell anyone about the abuse. If a person is capable of raping a child, should we really be shocked that they would be capable of threatening further harm if the child ever "tells"???
I hope and PRAY that there were/are no other victims at BBC. But, I also think it's incredibly naive and foolish to look at surface facts and think everything is right with the world--let's move on--it's over--"Don't worry, be happy, now..." when dealing with this specific issue.
I believe God has brought things to light at BBC and at other SBC churches around the country, and we are responsible to seek HIS face and HIS direction through the scriptures in dealing with such matters!
We need to pray for victims--those we know, and those who may never come forward with their stories. We should offer compassionate, non-threatening, unwavering protection and support to encourage victims who come forward. We especially need to remain DILIGENT in pursuing Biblical applications to such matters and ACCOUNTABILITY within the "Family of God"!
Praying Colossians: AMEN
Yes, if indeed there are no more victims, then great! But, as in any investigation, just because victims did not come forward does not mean they aren't there. I'm not saying there are more victims of PW; I'm just saying that BBC's investigation is proving to be... well, less than stellar, and DCS is not perfect and all knowing. All that to say, even if there are no more victims, isn't the one enough? He's one victim too many.
I just read this great quote from Charles Spurgeon:
To pursue union at the expense of truth is treason to the Lord Jesus.
We can't be "arbiters of church conduct"; only God, through scripture, can. Wrong is wrong.
concernedSBCer said...
We can't be "arbiters of church conduct"; only God, through scripture, can. Wrong is wrong.
Thanks for making my point.
--Mike
Wow! A trolling Artie McStrawman. Ignore now turned on and working. All bloggers, please start your ignore engines.
I just ran across some things that I would like clarification about:
1. Why did Steve Gaines get an $75,000.00 bonus in November 2005? and has he received any other monies outside his salary?
2. Why did the church pay for the moving expenses of Ryan Wingo, Steve Gaines' daughter's boyfriend when he moved from Gardendale to BBC and was placed on staff?
3. Why was Dr Whitmire told that he would have to work for Jamie Parker if he did not resign/retire?
4. Who is leading the i2 now?
5. Why did Steve Gaines hound Craig Parker about getting advances on his paychecks and was this before or after the $75,000.00 bonus?
6. How much did BBC pay Gardendale Baptist Church to clear Steve Gaines' debt?
7. Is the special Greece trip still on the schedule? Has Steve Gaines changed the prices so he will NOT be receiving some 30-40,000.00 in kickbacks?
8. Who saw Steve Gaines at the Wolfchase Mall trying to buy shoes using a church credit card? Can this be verified? (This is NOT about him buying shoes - this is about his using the church credit card for personal expenses)
9. Who is writing checks to the Gaines from the 5 million in the Missions Department accounts and why? What is the money being used for?
10. Why was Bruce Brooke dismissed as a Board of Director for moral failure and not brought before the church for discipline as required by scripture?
11. Is this the same Bruce Brooke that whispered in Don Ware's ear that "there ain't gonna be no business meeting"?
12. Has the church reduced or withdrawn funding from MABTS or Life Choices or LWF?
13. Who gave Mark Dougharty the one year salary bonus because he was supposed to be leaving with the arrival of the new pastor? Why is he still here? If he is staying, does he not need to return the money as a gesture of good faith, or is this just another scheme by the rich and famous?
14. Why did David Perdue have to resign from the MABTS for attempting to divert funds to BBC? Is this illegal?? If it is, why has the DA not been notified?
15. What other boards is David Perdue on in relation to BBC, LWF, Life Choices?
16. Why did Charlie Brand resign from LWF?
17. Why was Harry Smith removed from the MATBS Board?
18. Why did Harry Smith resign from the LWF Board?
19. Who was responsible for seeing that the Investigative Committee actually did leave "no stone unturned"?
20. When are the ostritches gonna get their heads out of the sand?
Mike, You must be mistaken; I didn't make your point. If leaders are not following scripture, they have to be held accountable and responsible. Because wrong is wrong. All this blog, letters, petitions, etc. are seeking to do is to establish and follow truth through scripture. Believing in the priesthood of the believer, all believers are capable of studying and understanding God's word. A pastor or other leader is held to a higher responsibility, but we are all still part of one body. The leadership at BBC is not obeying scripture in numerous areas. They have to be held accountable. It is our responsiblity as Christians to protect God's Word, His church, and His people.
mom4,
Great post! The only item I have a comment to add is the one about Gaines' daughter's boyfriend, Ryan Wingo. I heard that daughter refused to move here unless boyfriend came, but that's no reason for Bellevue to have to subsidize him. Since when do churches make life easy for boyfriends/girlfriends of pastor's kids? Is that a legitimate nonprofit expense?
Most bullies are actually cowards. What's in your pulpit?
isabel wrote:
"Wow! A trolling Artie McStrawman. Ignore now turned on and working. All bloggers, please start your ignore engines."
Started as directed and trashcan duly emptied.
concernedSBCer said...
Mike, You must be mistaken; I didn't make your point.
No, I'm not mistaken, particularly since you continue to make it.
Much obliged.
If leaders are not following scripture, they have to be held accountable and responsible. Because wrong is wrong.
Absolutely. (Pun intended.)
And vigorously and regularly violating Scriptural standards in a rush to hold others accountable is not the way to accomplish anything.
Or hasn't that become obvious by now?
All this blog, letters, petitions, etc. are seeking to do is to establish and follow truth through scripture.
"All"?
You think?
Believing in the priesthood of the believer, all believers are capable of studying and understanding God's word. A pastor or other leader is held to a higher responsibility, but we are all still part of one body. The leadership at BBC is not obeying scripture in numerous areas. They have to be held accountable. It is our responsiblity as Christians to protect God's Word, His church, and His people.
It is also our responsibility as Christians to do so without making statements and engaging in behavior (as the "Saving Bellevue"-ers, "Integrity Does Count"-ers, and many of the "Open Forum"-ers do) that can most politely be categorized as "ironic."
--Mike
New BBC Open Forum said...
isabel wrote:
"Wow! A trolling Artie McStrawman. Ignore now turned on and working. All bloggers, please start your ignore engines."
Started as directed and trashcan duly emptied.
And it didn't even take you thirty minutes, Nass.
I see the scope of your censorship is broadening. Why is that?
--Mike
Looks like Bellevue is in the national and local news again:
CNN article:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/21/southern.baptist.ap/index.html
Commercial Appeal article:
http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/local/article/0,2845,MCA_25340_5369186,00.html
Mike: Your logic fails me. Thanks anyway.
Have a nice day! :)
Correction--ninety minutes.
Trying to multi-task here...
--Mike
concernedSBCer said...
Mike: Your logic fails me. Thanks anyway.
Have a nice day! :)
Then let me boil it down: What's good for the goose is good for the gander. When a group condemns the actions of others, yet that group's own actions are not above-board, the condemnation rings hollow.
--Mike
ignoring.......
Some mistakenly think that Bellevue is somehow too big for a "normal business meeting." Really? It has been argued on this blog that a church reaches a certain size and it just can't operate... THAT way. Really??
The Southern Baptist Convention meets each year and is slightly larger than Bellevue [understatement, I know]. They have reports, microphones on the floor, whatever it takes for things to be done decently and in order.
The church at Jerusalem grew from 120 to 3,120 to 8,120... with the Lord adding DAILY to it. By the presence and power of the Holy Spirit they remained together--"in one accord." In Acts 15 the church met and discussed a controversial issue and came together "in one accord."
God the Father does not change. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today , and forever. The Holy Spirit of God does not change.
Why should a church change when it reaches a certain size? Is accountability inconvenient? Does it require extra work? But does it preserve transparency and provide checks and balances to avoid shipwreck...
Truth does not fear light...
BBC needs revival, cleansing, and reform. Pray that God will cleanse, heal, and restore BBC.
imo
concernedSBCer said...
ignoring.......
If you'd let me know in advance that you're going to make my points for me (over and over again), that would help me better plan my day. :)
--Mike
Mom4:
How about adding this to your list?
Does Bellevue or does Bellevue not accept non-emersion baptism as a requirement for membership and when was our prior policy changed?
Sorry, can't let that get by...
C'mon Mike.....surely you can't believe that. I have yet to find one instance where the "Truthseekers" (for want of a better term...or pew if you want to use that)have not been above board. There is no way their actions can be compared with the boldface lying that has been coming from the leadership. Besides, we shouldn't be comparing ourselves to each other; we should be comparing ourselves to Jesus. The leadership has ignored warnings and teaching from scripture and have severly damaged the sheep in BBC's pasture.
Your logic is flawed.
Concerned SBCer,
Don't let the Mr. Artie McStrawman draw you in - that's his intention. Watch out for quicksand. You won't get any where. Keep up your good posts and don't let obstacles get in your way - sidestep them or just ignore them - they'll soon go away to that dark lonely place they came from. Get back on track and God bless you. Just because a name is used that sounds legitimate doesn't mean he is.
Most bullies are cowards. What's in your pulpit?
This is the day the Lord has made...Isn't it beautiful!
Who saw Steve Gaines at the Wolfchase Mall trying to buy shoes using a church credit card? Can this be verified? (This is NOT about him buying shoes - this is about his using the church credit card for personal expenses)
"Trying to buy shoes?" Interesting... Why wasn't he able? Was the card over limit? (that's a joke, btw)
I believe that this story originated with a joke gone bad about the pastor using the credit card at Kroger. There was no truth to it, as the blogger who posted it later stated. Dr. Gaines has never been observed using the actual credit card. There's been some question over the propriety of his direct billing of the Colonial affair, but that was one of the questions answered by the CC.
I2 has always been run by Keny Hatley, the minister of worship production. Currently a young man named Brandon Bernard is speaking.
The Greece trip is still scheduled. The price is unchanged, but contrary to rumor Dr. Gaines is not pocketing the bonus money. He is receiving extra tickets which he is distributing as he sees fit.
Mark Dougherty didn't receive a one year 'bonus'. It was part of a retirement package the church has been giving to a few senior staffers for a few years. IDC seems to know a lot about the vesting schedule, so you can contact them for more info.
When are the ostritches gonna get their heads out of the sand?
I'll assume this is directed at the church membership in general. Ostriches hide their heads in the ground when they feel threatened and don't see an alternate method of escape. Their heads are the most vulnerable part of their bodies, and they're trying to protect it. They do not do it because they are afraid to look at something scary. They stop when they feel safe.
Hello. I am someone who is an outsider, but have been following the story about BBC from a distance. I normally do not post on things like this, but I felt compelled.
In reading many of the comments on this blog, and also on the petition to postpone the "ordination", I've noticed some folks have the misperception that ministry/licensing/ordination,etc. always = SEMINARY. That is not necessarily the case. I myself am licensed and ordained and have been in Music Ministry for 14 years. I have a degree in Church Music from a Baptist University, but have not completed a Masters (although I have completed some hours toward a degree, different circumstances have precluded me from finishing). God placed a specific call on my life to minster through music--leading the Body of Christ in worship. My undergraduate degree prepared me fully for that calling. I served in a local church all through college to further prepare myself. I guess what I'm trying to say is that folks should not necessarily be so quick to judge those in ministry who have not been "seminary trained".
Ordination is the "setting apart" of an individual by a local church to do ministry within the Body of Christ. By definition this is a local church decision, generally "voted" on and approved by the congregation, and consummated with an ordination service. I believe another poster correctly commented on the fact that generally (at least in SBC churches) licensing comes before ordination, which to my knowledge has not taken place in this case.
I can also tell you that ordination itself does not mean instant money (personal experience!), and I have never taken advantage of any of the tax advantages related to it--it is too much of a headache, and I prefer to do my own taxes without having to pay someone else to do it.
At any rate, I certainly cannot comment too specifically on the situation at BBC, as I am not there. I hate to hear of any local church that is experincing such turmoil, and I pray that God will provide His solution for your church in HIs time.
concernedSBCer said...
Sorry, can't let that get by...
C'mon Mike.....surely you can't believe that. I have yet to find one instance where the "Truthseekers" (for want of a better term...or pew if you want to use that)have not been above board. There is no way their actions can be compared with the boldface lying that has been coming from the leadership. Besides, we shouldn't be comparing ourselves to each other; we should be comparing ourselves to Jesus. The leadership has ignored warnings and teaching from scripture and have severly damaged the sheep in BBC's pasture.
Your logic is flawed.
You're kidding, right? You must be kidding.
I really don't have to go any farther than to observe that a group of folks who want their voices to be heard are incredibly quick to either jeer, censor or abet the censoring of people with whom it disagrees.
I've spent more than a bit of time over the past few months asking people that participate here, with "Saving Bellevue," and with "Integrity Does Count," in writing and in face-to-face conversations, to move away from the counterproductive behavior and begin to behave in a sober manner.
Remarks such as "your logic is flawed" are herrings (even though my logic is sound); it isn't about logic, but about facts. And the facts are that the Bellevue staff and leadership aren't (and shouldn't be) inclined to pay attention to people who refer to them as the Mafia, the Clintons, the Nazis, or any pejorative along those lines.
--Mike
Mom4
I have called LWF to see if Bellevue has decreased or pulled funding. They have not. But I was told that only 3% of their budget comes from the entire Memphis area and Bellevue is only a small part of that.
Thankfully, Gaines couldn't pull the plug on this ministry if he wanted to.
You have mail.
New BBC Open Forum,
Thanks for taking the trash out. Looks like they're coming out of the woodwork today!
Sorry to have to leave you, but gotta get a check-up. I'll be back later. This must really drain your time but we are so proud of you and all your work. God bless you!
faithnhope said...
The Greece trip is still scheduled. The price is unchanged, but contrary to rumor Dr. Gaines is not pocketing the bonus money. He is receiving extra tickets which he is distributing as he sees fit.
Faith, so do you think that makes it OK?? Gaines is overcharging on the trip and taking a free trip, (for every 5 he gets one free or the $$$, if this is not the # of paids = freebies, please feel free to correct me.) Either way he is pocketing the money in $$ or free trips to give away. That makes it immoral and unethical..unless of course everyone paying full price for their trip is aware they are overpaying on what the actual cost could be so he may get free ones to give away, as he sees fit, or $$$ to keep...at their expense. Has he seen fit to offer you a free trip?? Do all the people going on Paul's Journey know the truth regarding the freebies they are paying for?! Shameful and dishonest!!
Mike said..
"(even though my logic is sound)"
Based on WHAT?? Your opinion???
Mike, please quit trying to be a devil's advocate here. You are only trying to blow smoke on an already flaming fire.
Where's CHARLIE??????
And the facts are that the Bellevue staff and leadership aren't (and shouldn't be) inclined to pay attention to people who refer to them as the Mafia, the Clintons, the Nazis, or any pejorative along those lines.
The fact is MOST avoid characterizing the BBC leadership and staff as Mafia, Clintons and Nazis. Why don't they listen to the overwhelming number of dissenters who avoid such pejoratives?
Everyone, Mike is a pseudo-intellectual bully. His comments are replete with fallacious arguments.
It is fine to advance oposing views. Instead of actually advancing his position he merely nitpicks every statement you guys make. Realize how he operates before engaging him.
Sign if you think they should go
Psalms 119:42-43
42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.
43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.
faithnhope said
The Greece trip is still scheduled. The price is unchanged, but contrary to rumor Dr. Gaines is not pocketing the bonus money. He is receiving extra tickets which he is distributing as he sees fit.
Piglet says:
This was no rumor. A sworn affidavit to the fact that he indeed pocketed the money for these trips at Gardendale was made public. He changed his plans to do the same at Bellevue because Dr. Rogers never pocketed the money and we weren't about to let Gaines do it.
In Honor of Charlie:
charlie fox said...
Dr. Fox sez,
Ignore the agitator. It's good for you health. It'll help keep you blood pressure down!!!!!
12:57 PM, February 01, 2007
Music Guy
I agree that not everyone in the ministry has been to seminary.I think a lot of people do not realize this. My father went to seminary before he pastored but my grandfather did not. My father left the ministry but my grandfather preached until he was 85 and was disabled in an accident which eventually caused his death.
concerned sbcer
Charlie would be so proud!! :)
sheepless, piglet:
I was stating what I know to be true, not offering my own opinion on whether the trip was right or wrong.
The question was, is Dr. Gaines pocketing money for the Greece trip this year and the answer is no.
Piglet, sheepless,
Faith said...
"The question was, is Dr. Gaines pocketing money for the Greece trip this year and the answer is no."
And apparently she knows this to be true - that he is no longer planning on pocketing the money.
I would ask Faith to find out when the change was made, because I know that this was not the case originally - perhaps that would clarify the issue entirely and we can assume that Steve Gaines will not try this trick again??
Faith,
Thank you for your response.
A FEW GODLY MEN
(will make more sense if familiar with A Few Good Men movie and have more effect if reading using Jack Nicholson's voice)
You want answers? You want the truth!?!
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!
Folks...
We live in a church world that has many members... and these members have to be lead by men with proven Godly integrity. Who's gonna do it? You? You JM (jobless)? You SOTL (obviously nothing else to do besides Blog)? These leaders have a greater responsibility then most of you could possibly fathom. You openly reveal your "good" deeds and anonymously slander the staff. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing all that they know. That these methods, while confusing to many, benefit our church... and these leaders and positions, while envious and incomprehensible to you, saves Bellevue. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you won't reveal on blogs, you want them as leaders. You need them in those offices!
They use words like integrity, truth, and loyalty... they use these words as the backbone to a life spent serving the Lord and you. You use them as a public punchline. They have neither the time nor the responsibility to explain themselves to folks who have no proven track record of these characteristics and who rise and sleep under the blanket of the very benefits and service that they work tirelessly to provide for them and then question the manner in which what they want is provided and tear down those that provide it as was requested. They'd rather you just say "thank you" and continue to worship, serve, and benefit. Otherwise, I suggest you get involved the way God would approve and serve and lead with them. Either way, most actual informed concerned Bellevue members don't give a (insert favorite word) what a few misinformed, jealous, disturbed folks think they know or what their opinion is!
In all seriousness, God bless each of you. I care about and pray for you. Until next rare moment that I pop in. Bye now!
P.S. Last and for all. I was there also - DC did not laugh in her face. Can anyone really defend how she handled herself by approaching him right after service with finger pointing and that strange accusing statement. No wonder he was confused and taken by surprise. Who would expect that. I really feel bad for this woman. Also, victim not interviewed? You really beleive that? Looks like reasons listed for petition have same holes every other argument has had over the last few months. Love all the celebs that have jumped on board. Actually, starting to get somewhat entertaining.
If Dr. Gaines takes tickets instead of cash he will be forced to pay more than $10,000 in income tax on those tickets. Not only that he will probably owe gift tax on the tickets he gives away.
I sure do admire his generosity.
Piglet said...
Music Guy
I agree that not everyone in the ministry has been to seminary.I think a lot of people do not realize this. My father went to seminary before he pastored but my grandfather did not. My father left the ministry but my grandfather preached until he was 85 and was disabled in an accident which eventually caused his death.
I was under this impression and I posted as such and for that I apologize. I have found that some of my favorite pastors have gone to college and have attended seminary. Then they were called to a church where they had "on the job training" for ministry, if you will.
My revised statement of why David Coombs should not be ordained is thus: He has been a business man with no "on the job" training to be a minister of the Gospel (unless you count the last 8 weeks). If God called him, that's fine with me and I can accept that. We've heard nothing of the sort from the pulpit, just that he's being ordained. I don't expect David Coombs to be hit by the lightning rod of God to convince me he truly has been called, but there's been no explanation or excited utterance that God truly has called David to the ministry. He's a business man, plain and simple. Due to that fact and his shabby treatment of some BBC members during the investigation of Paul Williams, I do not want him ordained.
Karen
scoombs said...
"Also, victim not interviewed? You really beleive that?"
Was the victim interviewed?? IF he was, who is lying? Particulars please??
faithandhope said...
The question was, is Dr. Gaines pocketing money for the Greece trip this year and the answer is no.
Pocketing physical money and getting a trip free are the same thing. Let's not start splitting hairs - he's getting a benefit regardless of the form it happens to take.
Steve Gaines accepted the offer of airline tickets for his daughter to attend ECS cheerleading tryouts - same thing. May not have been a physical money transaction, but it was a benefit.
karen
Also, victim not interviewed? You really beleive that?
Yes, I do. Until someone can conclusively show me evidence to the contrary, I will continue to believe this is accurate.
If I were in your position, I would probably also feel very strongly about defending my dad, but to come on here and insult people by name does not do much to add to your credibility.
Mom4 asked...
8. Who saw Steve Gaines at the Wolfchase Mall trying to buy shoes using a church credit card? Can this be verified? (This is NOT about him buying shoes - this is about his using the church credit card for personal expenses)
********
Mom4, didn't you know it was I who have the answers to these questions? The answer as to "who" it was is held in confidence by me; however, if we HAVE to verify it, I would answer you that we most likely could very easily do so. There are two eyewitnesses. One is still in Memphis. The other one has moved back to his hometown in another state and reunited with his estranged wife. Unless the man was able to manufacture a saleslip that said "BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH" within seconds or minutes of the actual transaction, or unless the other lady made up the fact of what she saw when same saleman excitedly came to display this saleslip to her, then I would say it is all true. BTW, I do know the lady, too, having been introduced to her by my brother.
(I absolutely hate it when that question comes up because, invariably, people come on here and make light of the whole matter and try to distort the truth or what we are saying about the incident. Really, though, it was NOT about the buying of shoes. Give me a little credit, please.)
That having been stated for at least the third time, my own brother is the person who told me about it, and he told me way back when it actually happened--not NOW when everyone is trying to scrutinize every detail of 'A Day in the Life of Dr. Steve Gaines'. My brother told me this in August or September, 2005 before Steve Gaines had started preaching on a regular basis. He was telling me because he knew I liked Steve Gaines and that I was excited about his coming to Bellevue. He thought I would like to know that Dr. Gaines had indeed arrived on the scene here in Memphis. This was the beginning of my having to explain away certain actions of our pastor to my brother, too. He thought he was phoney then, and still does now. Sadly, he may possess greater discernment than I.
Lord Jesus, help us to make it through these difficult and troubling times at our church. Please bring an end to this as soon as You can. I am thanking you in advance for this resolution. Amen.
JESUS IS LORD!
Everyone have a blessed day...
Dee (offline)
The children are signing the petition again. Today we've had "Chuck Dickens" and "Simon Belmont" among others.
Does not knowing how many dissenters there are really strenghten their position?
It does not change the reality of dissent whatsoever.
socwork: The letter from Dr. Hannaford verified that he was not interviewed.
One other thing...just my 2 cents. I've also seen the calls to know what each staff member makes and benefits, etc. Personally, as a minister, I've always struggled with the fact that all these people know how much money I make, what I may pay in taxes, etc. It's a little disconcerting. I would never--and could never without being sent to the "Baptist electric chair" :) ask a "regular" church member (remember staff are members of the church too!) the details of their income and benefits. Granted, as church members, you should know how and where the money that is given to the church through tithes and offerings is spent, but I think you can accomplish much of the same by knowing in general what is budgeted for staff/personnel salaries and benefits as a whole. Or at least in BBC's case, broken down by ministry area or division as a whole.
Almost every upper staff member in past other than head pastor have been ordained without prior ministry or seminary and come from the business world. Sorrell, Weatherwax, Dougherty to name a few of many. You guys must really have no knowledge of the past and how these things work. If Dr. Rogers were handling this (which was the same way as ones he did handle), you wouldn't have had a problem. Business experience or success has virtually nothing to do with being ordained. Why so focused on that. You guys have it backwards. It has to do with 40 years of serving a church as deacon and heading up hundreds of boards, comittees, etc. and dealing with members and staff with consistent integrity, loyalty, honesty, hard work, sacrifice, etc. Decision was very God led. and not quickly. God has prepared him for 40+ years for this and he has felt lead and prayed about this for years. Those who say money is an issue definitely have no clue as to the difference in time, freedom, money, and stress that the new position is compared to old one. All in favor of old position except one thing. God called him to new position! Many would have had to have more or would have enjoyed retirement. Not him.
Some positions are pastors for administrative purposes - not primarily or at all to counsel, preach, etc.
This all does not phase him. He is focused on serving God and the church family. However, it's a shame that our family has to be hurt and defensive at a time that should be one of the most special moments and times for us as we honor God and recognize how he has used DC to honor Him over years of service as a layman and now staff.
No reason to insult anyone. Just stating facts as I have witnessed. (I know that's a real loose word in here "facts").
s coombs,
I know you love your dad and all, but your loyalty is turning to bitterness, my friend.
Josh Manning is in Boston going to college and I'm not sure if he has a job - so what?
SOTL - Leave her alone or you will open a can of worms you don't want to deal with. There are many other victims of abuse on this blog and if you have the nerve to rag on her for her response to the laughable report your father gave from the pulpit, then you have NO credibility with me EVER! You are treading a very thin line and I suggest you back off SOTL. I hope you find yourself warned, sir. You have no concept of her (or any other abuse victims) suffering and don't you dare try to act like you know how she should act.
As for the victim not being interviewed, since your daddy couldn't control the situation in which the interview would take place, he chose not to interview the victim. Read the report; that's what it says.
Seems to me he'd be glad to have the victim interviewed in any way the victim requested. Maybe he'd say something different in front of an attorney than just a "plain ole victim".
Just like when your dad was on tape saying he "didn't care about TN law" on Josh Manning's tape - sounds like he'd have said something different if he'd known he was being taped.
Again, Steven I know you love your daddy and I admire that. He's a big man, though. Maybe you should ask him before you respond for him.
karen
Concerned and socwork,
The report itself stated a witness was not interviewed. Chuck's letter confirmed that witness not interviewed was the molestation victim at the heart of the story.
My question is who hamstrung the investigation? Was it Dr. Gaines? Attorneys? I actually doubt it was David Coombs.
The investigation wasn't a grand jury or other legal proceeding, so why not allow a meeting of all parties? My conclusion is they did not allow it for the same reason they never allowed a meeting of all parties concerning the "Amen Kelly" dream: the truth would have been devastating.
Think about this: if the truth wasn't worse than all of this criticism, they would go back and conduct the "Amen Kelly" meeting and put that issue behind them once and for all.
"But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon the housetops."
Luke 12:2-3
faithandhope,
Unlike you, I've known it was common for a long time. People want to go on trips with famous or influential people so there's a market ready made.
Dr. Rogers never profited from his trips - I don"t know if that was who were referring to, but for the record in general - He gave any profits (whether it be money or tickets) to Love Worth Finding - a non-profit organization.
Steve Gaines has a non-profit organization (Hope for your Future). Why shouldn't any profits be given there or to another non-profit of his choosing?
karen
socwork: The letter from Dr. Hannaford verified that he was not interviewed.
Thought so. :)
faith said...
"No money is going into Dr. Gaines pocket from this particular trip. No amount of discussion is going to change that."
Apparently not now it isn't, but there is documented evidence that it has in the past - which is still taking money under false pretenses. Like Karen said - even if he is just taking "free tickets" it is still "taking".
I can just about betcha by golly that if he had known up front that he would have to pay taxes on the freebies instead of the dollars he would have earned, he would have just dropped the price. Whaddaya think?
s coombs,
I am so relieved to know your dad isn't fazed by us. Gee just another example of leadership don't giving a (enter your own word here) about sheep that are hurting. How can he being doing the Lord's work when the Scriptures plainly say that shepherds should tend to their flocks. What Lord's work is he doing if not tending the sheep that need help so desperately?
karen
s coombs,
I am part of the church family - why I am not being served? Because I have a differing opinion? Since when are differing opinions now fodder for the "find another church if you don't like it" crowd?
karen
Ephesians 5:11
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
faithnhope said...
let's see,
sheepless, piglet, mom4, docbellevue, and karen:
In case you didn't know (which I didn't until recently), tours like this are very common. Many evangelists, singers, and preachers fund their ministries with them.
No money is going into Dr. Gaines pocket from this particular trip. No amount of discussion is going to change that.
2:24 PM, February 22, 2007
Faith,
Common practice does not make it right.
No matter how you look at it Gaines is getting a "Kickback!"
In case you don't know this, if the people paying full price do not know $$ or tickets are going back to Gaines..this is unethical, immoral, dishonest. It is also called "Failure to Disclose"
Again, what is your position on this..do you think it is OK for Gaines to get the Kickback in tickets??? And, has he offered you one? I'd really like to know, please.
faithnhope said...
let's see,
sheepless, piglet, mom4, docbellevue, and karen:
In case you didn't know (which I didn't until recently), tours like this are very common. Many evangelists, singers, and preachers fund their ministries with them.
No money is going into Dr. Gaines pocket from this particular trip. No amount of discussion is going to change that.
I never once said even one penny was going into his pocket. What I said was if he receives free tickets they are taxable income to him and he will have to pony up the cash to pay the taxes. I would hate to have to pay the income tax on $40,000-$50,000 worth of free tickets. I also said if he gives the tickets away he may owe the state of Tennessee some gift taxes.
Psalms 25:21 Let integrity and uprightness preserve me; for I wait on thee.
2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
If they want to give away some tickets, why not allow generous donors make designated gifts to the church? The church could then pay for needy individuals to go on the trips. That way the donor gets the tax benefit. As it stands those footing the bills for the free trips get nothing but the pleasure of knowing they were overcharged.
Karen said...
s coombs,
I am so relieved to know your dad isn't fazed by us. Gee just another example of leadership don't giving a (enter your own word here) about sheep that are hurting. How can he being doing the Lord's work when the Scriptures plainly say that shepherds should tend to their flocks. What Lord's work is he doing if not tending the sheep that need help so desperately?
karen
Karen,
Isn't there something about the one lost sheep that the shepherd goes to find - or the one about the lost coin - hmmmmmm...how about Jeremiah 23 where the Lord pronounces judgement on those who scatter the flock?? This is dangerous ground!
I would say to David Coombs, that if he truly is called by God into the ministry, to postpone his ordination until the leadership integrity problems can be sorted out. At that time, his family and his church family can join in his celebration with joy. Right now, he has placed himself in the middle of a dark mix. If he is truly trying to make a difference, he would react a lot different toward the members with questions. It seems that he is taking his cue from higher ups and I don't mean God. (personally, I think he is being used)
sheepless,
No, Dr. Gaines has not offered me a ticket. I'm not a member of BBC any more, but even if I were I'd want the tickets to be given to those with financial need. Besides, I've never seen a cruise ship that was truly handicapped accessible.
As for whether or not I think accepting tickets is right or wrong, actions are right only to the degree that they adhere to God's Word, and wrong to the extent that they deviate from it.
I don't know Dr. Gaines' plans for the free tickets, other than he is giving them away. He might give them to homebound members, or he might sell them on Ebay.
I do think we should know where they go, but simply receiving them is not wrong.
The original question was from mom4:
Is the special Greece trip still on the schedule? Has Steve Gaines changed the prices so he will NOT be receiving some 30-40,000.00 in kickbacks?
As I answered, the trip is still on, the price is unchanged, and Steve Gaines is not receiving money. I really don't have anything else to say about this.
Grace to you,
Faith Jackson
faithnhope said...
sheepless,
No, Dr. Gaines has not offered me a ticket.
As for whether or not I think accepting tickets is right or wrong, actions are right only to the degree that they adhere to God's Word, and wrong to the extent that they deviate from it.
I don't know Dr. Gaines' plans for the free tickets, other than he is giving them away. He might give them to homebound members, or he might sell them on Ebay.
I do think we should know where they go, but simply receiving them is not wrong.
3:23 PM, February 22, 2007
Faith,
Thank you for your honest answers.
Right or wrong is based on adherence to Gods word. Again, if the people purchasing the tickets are not made fully aware they are paying more than minimum cost of the trip in order for free tickets or $$ to be given back to someone else, this is dishonest, immoral and unethical, which is not adherence to God's word. If "Full Disclosure" has not been given to each individual, this is simply WRONG no matter who he gives the tickets to or what he does with them.
Thanks again for your honest disclosure.
mom4 said...
Karen,
Isn't there something about the one lost sheep that the shepherd goes to find - or the one about the lost coin - hmmmmmm...how about Jeremiah 23 where the Lord pronounces judgement on those who scatter the flock?? This is dangerous ground!
DING DING - Give mom4 the big prize! :)
karen
Ed_t,
You know we want you back. May I also say, "I told you so". We are just too lovable on here, and you can see where we need your help. Take your shoes off and get comfortable.
Lord Jesus, thank you for leading Ed Thompson back to us.
Dee
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