The past two Sundays have brought us some real gems. In the 9:30 service Steve Gaines referred to his version of something as the "Steve Gaines version." In the 11:00 service he said the "King Steve version," then quickly said, "Cut that."
From a sermon entitled "Extravagant Worship" we have these embarrassing (and admittedly embellished) moments:
About the Music
On Plagiarizing Sermons
On Leaving in a Hurry
Preaching to the Choir (and Orchestra)
From this Sunday night's sermon, entitled "Corrupt Priests, Crooked Politicians, and Courageous Preachers," we heard these:
Is this from the "King Steve version"?
This is just so wrong!
200 comments:
On a serious note, Bellevue is reportedly scheduled to house 150 evacuees from Louisiana. They are asking for donations of the following:
One-gallon freezer bags
Washcloths
Towels
Sleeping bags
Blankets
Toothpaste
Toothbrushes
Disposable razors
Shaving cream
Combs and hairbrushes
Deodorant
Shampoo
Flip flops
Games, books, magazines
NO clothing needed at this time.
I think he has extravagent worship confused with lavish productions. They are not the same thing. Extravagent worship often takes place in the most "un-extravagent" places.
Can someone refresh my memory - Is BBC part of the Willow Creek Association? The WCA is notorious for "sharing" sermons - they don't count it as plagerism - because that is part of the contract you sign to join the WCA. (I still view it as plagerism - and I view plagerism as stealing - but those are just my opionions, I don't have a scripture and verse to back it up. So if you disagree - fine, it's not a cross I am willing to die on.) But that all being said, in context of the complete sermon, what is he caring on about? Did someone steal something of his? Or did he get accused of stealing something?
Didn't someone say a long time ago that he had a seminary student who did the research for and at least outlined his sermons and that he just "fleshed them out"?
Then there was last year's Running to Win fiasco. Whoever did his research for that sermon, which used a Nashville marathon as an illustration, a marathon SG claimed to have attended the previous day, somehow managed to list all of the previous year's winners.
I bet the second this came out of SG's mouth he wished he could take it back! Praying for the people of New Orleans at the close of the service tonight, he said, "We pray that there won't be... a lot of uhhh... deaths, dear God... or anything like that."
new bbc open forum said...
I bet the second this came out of SG's mouth he wished he could take it back! Praying for the people of New Orleans at the close of the service tonight, he said, "We pray that there won't be... a lot of uhhh... deaths, dear God... or anything like that."
10:44 PM, August 31, 2008
We pray there won't be a lot of deaths? How about we pray that there are not ANY deaths. Usually, its one's true heart that speaks in these "oops" moments.
What an idiot
Regarding my 10:00 p.m. comment...
The more I think about this the more perplexed and exasperated I get. When one considers all the money Bellevue spends on such things as the Family Fun Festival (which they're having again this Halloween) and all the money they blew up in fireworks at the Starlight Spectacular this year alone, how much would it really take to keep a couple hundred of these "comfort kits" (as the Red Cross calls them) on hand for such a time as this? Let's say you could put together a whole package -- sleeping bag, blanket, towels, and toiletries for $50 (and I'm sure they could cut a deal with suppliers to do it for even less than that), they could put together 200 of these packages for $10,000. Then when something like this happens they wouldn't have to be scrambling at the last minute and begging for donations from people who are already giving -- many of them sacrificially. Maybe it's just me, but I think that's a lot better use of the church's resources than a 20-minute fireworks show.
It's just a thought.
"We pray there won't be a lot of deaths? How about we pray that there are not ANY deaths. Usually, its one's true heart that speaks in these 'oops' moments."
I don't think I'd put it quite that harshly. I just don't think he's a very good extemporaneous speaker, and that's what public prayer is unless you're reading a written prayer. It's also why I make it a habit NOT to pray out loud in public. There but for the grace of God go most of us. However, he certainly should have had plenty of practice over the years, and I'd think he'd have some "prepared" prayer phrases at the ready. That was definitely an "oops" moment though. Made me cringe just hearing about it.
I can't make the last 2 links work...my computer is misbehaving...what are they about??
Anyone else having problems with the audio files? They're large files and take a while to download.
I had a hard time with the links at first, but I tried them again and they worked the second time.
As I said, they're big, and they do take a while to load. If you've got dial-up forget it!
I know I'M embarrassed by those snippets.
If that's intelligent Biblical teaching...well...it's just sad.
Of ALL the books of the Bible that could be taught....
of ALL the beautiful stories that could be told in the Bible....
those are examples of some of the poorest preaching I've heard....and some of the loudest.
In all fairness, go listen to the whole sermon -- last Sunday morning's at least. Tonight's isn't posted anywhere yet. As of Friday it still wasn't in the archives on Bellevue's website (wonder why not?), but it is on the podcast which you can access through iTunes and other sites.
"Is BBC part of the Willow Creek Association? The WCA is notorious for "sharing" sermons - they don't count it as plagerism - because that is part of the contract you sign to join the WCA."
They sell sermons, too. (Along with drama skits, videos, etc)
I agree with you all regarding Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Life and its marketing plan. VERY secular and not Holy Spirit inspired. However, were you all aware that Dr. Rogers' own son, David Rogers, includes The Purpose-Driven Life and The Purpose-Driven Church in his list of favorite books?
www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267
"However, were you all aware that Dr. Rogers' own son, David Rogers, includes The Purpose-Driven Life and The Purpose-Driven Church in his list of favorite books?"
Yes, that's very old news. {yawn}
Dr. Rogers himself wrote an endorsement of PDC. That's old news, too.
"Rick Warren has been used to challenge my thinking in the area of church growth in an incredible way. This book is on the must-read list for every pastor."--Adrian Rogers, Pastor, Bellevue Baptist Church, Memphis, Tennessee
What can I say? Some things defy logic.
NOTHING defies logic to God. He knows the true motives of everyone, even pastor or layman.
In this case, IMO, Rick Warren, David Rogers and even ADRIAN ROGERS are WRONG in adapting this worldly mentality of Rick Warren's church growth scheme.
I have to give Obama some props. When news broke today about Palin's daughter being pregnant, Obama had harsh words for those who resort to the level of dragging candidates families into the mud. And for once, he actually sounded sincere about it.
For those who may not know, all of this started yesterday when The Daily Kos (a known far left blog) tried to claim that Sarah Palin's youngest son who has Downs Syndrome wasn't actually her son, but instead the son of her daughters.
I agree, but I can't speak for any of them. And AR can't even speak for himself now.
I haven't had a chance to read it all, but this appears to be a pretty good review of this subject.
Obama's only too aware he could find himself in the same position in a few years.
Interesting quote from a Church of God site that is a pretty good description of Bellevue:
"Whenever you think that your congregation is the only one that has challenges, realize that there is nothing new under the sun.
Many religious people (inside and outside the Church of God) like to think that God is blessing them when things are going well and that Satan is attacking them when things are going poorly.
In a sense, both concepts are vanity.
When things are going well, people like to think that they are blessed because they are the exclusive and elite believers in the world.
And, when things are going poorly, they like to think that they are the object of Satan's attack because they are the exclusive and elite believers in the world."
Lynn,
I didn't know that anyone was trying to drag Palin's special needs child into this. How cruel.
After what the Clintons exposed to America and they are still heroes....how could anyone smear Palin for a choice her daughter made.
I hope the 17 year old isn't being pushed into marriage tho.
Regarding Dr. Rogers and his son, David, and the PDL books. My understanding from Dr Rogers is that he said that parts of the book holds truths, but that all of it should be read with the Bible in the other hand. I do not know what David thinks, but I recently heard that he had changed his reading preferences on his blog (loveeachstone.blogspot.com)
Duh... concerning the statement by straight path.
No one on this blog agrees with the RW method.
Bro R. is dead and we don't know what David R. does in Spain.
I think the statement is a bit random.JMO
This is kind of random, too... but funny regardless of which side of the political fence you're on.
been redeemed:
I guess you heard wrong because The Purpose-Driven Life and The Purpose-Driven Church are still included in David Rogers' favorite book listing.
gmommy:
"Duh... concerning the statement by straight path."
Why are you being so sarcastic? I am new to this blog and am not familiar with anyone's beliefs and ideas.
I feel it is very safe to be realistic and state that an inclusion of The Purpose-Driven Life and the Purpose-Driven Church in anyone's favorite book listing probably means they DO adapt Rick Warren's church growth strategy.
Thank you to all that prayed for us. The Lord was gracious to us all. The eye passed over us and we only had winds of about 65-70 mph for a brief period and only about eight inches of rain as compared to the 12-15 that was predicted. The parishes to our east(where my family resides) were hit much harder and there was much more damage, but everyone is safe and sound. Our power was only down 2 days as compared to 2 weeks during the last hurricane. Tonight we thank our God for the smile of His providence,for much grace for the soul during times of danger, and for a nice cool home to rest our weary bodies.
Blessings
Amos
Straight Path,
I didn't know that about DR's reading list, so I guess I'm a dullard meself. It seems by now the entire Rogers family would be keenly aware of the root causes of BBC's devastation, but David is normally on the mission field and has been more reluctant to acknowledge problems, let alone the underlying currents. Besides, who needs PDC when you have an angry, arrogant, lying, self-serving "pastor" who is a law unto himself? The seats are now so vacant he recently felt compelled to offer an explanation (lame though it was). Yet he continues to beat the sheep -- his loyalists, mind you -- and even the choir isn't beyond his lash.
As for DR, a principle I learned years ago from a wise Bible study teacher is to allow others, most of whom haven't traveled the same roads we have, to be "in process." Hopefully in time DR will realize the destructiveness of PDL and PDC. And hopefully so will the rest of Christendom.
All2Jesus: Excellent Point. IMHO, the "social gospel" feel good mentality is responsibile for many of the church's problems. ("The church" used here as a generic term)
And we are all "in progress".....just for different things I would imagine.
I wonder why that is.....I have parts of my life that are on track and others I can't seem to get a handle on......
Go Palin!!!!
What a woman!!!!
Brains, Wit!, Guts! and personality!!!!!!
NO WONDER the democrats and men are freaking out!!!!!!
Wait a minute, gmommy. I'm a man and I'm all for Palin!
I think "gmommy" was referring to men like this one.
Oh. Them. Ok. :)
The youngest little daughter is loving this!!!She's staying right witth her mom waving the whole time!!!!!
Why didn't McCain's family come out with him?????
Because this was Palin's night. McCain's family will come out with him tomorrow night. Everyone jokes about McCain's age, but his mother is still living. She was right there cheering tonight, and I bet she'll be up on the stage with the rest of his family tomorrow night.
Amos,
I am so thrilled that the eye of the storm missed you and I am also happy to hear that your family is safe. I know you are happy your power is already back on. Thank you for the update.
Prayer warriors,
I heard today on AFR - American Family Radio - that one of the morning deejays had a horrible accident and is in the hospital. He was thrown from his horse on Labor Day and is in a lot of pain with multiple injuries. He had to have surgery today and of course they are concerned pneumonia or other infection might set in. His name is JJ and I know he would appreciate your prayers.
In other news, I absolutely adore what I've seen of Sarah Palin so far. I think she will make a wonderful Vice President. I usually don't watch much of the convention but this has been pretty interesting ever since she was announced as McCain's pick.
As far as PDL goes, I have never understood the fascination with it. My husband and I read it when we were going through it during the worship services but we thought it was just very basic - never realizing it was HERETICAL!!!! We just thought it was baby food for new Christians. I know some wonderful ministers or other church staff who list PDL as one of their favorites. I don't think we should use this blog to throw DR or Dr. Rogers under the bus. I guess we can argue about DR but Dr. R isn't here to defend himself. I get very irritated when I hear about pastors reading PDL or telling others to read it but considering RW has supposedly trained over 400,000 pastors, I think we are going to be fighting an uphill battle. I think all we can do is continue to sound warnings about RW and his books.
Blessings to you all.
she looked great!! and I thought Palin's mom and dad looked very nice.
This was hilarious. Had to laugh at the comment by "rdseheult."
I too love Sarah Palin. I could gush for awhile about her. I also love her children. And can I just say, that pricless moment of Piper with baby Trig - made me laugh and love that family all that much more.
This is the first time I can remember having a candidate that I felt was a REAL person. Their family has sucky stuff happen to them too - and yet they keep on smiling - I love them for it!
bkwm girl: I 100% agree. I'm very sorry their 17 year old daughter made a bad choice but it seems as if she is facing the consequences well. Anyone who is trying to parent late teen-adult children knows that even doing everything "right" they still sometimes make bad choices. And unfortunately, all the parents can do is try to help them through those consequences. My knee-jerk issue is Nationalized Healthcare and with a disabled child I believe Mrs. Palin will be more inclined to look at this issue with logic and practicality instead of "feel good" words. Nothing is free.....everything has to be paid for somehow.
Today is my mom's 82nd birthday.
Too bad my family decided to do the celebration today instead of waiting till the weekend to do so like they've done in the past. I wanted to just come home to some peace and quiet. (Been a long day at work)
Reposted from previous thread:
Bobby said...
Back to the issue on hand:
What was taking place at that church for the service? Too many churches (including one in SC where I attend, and now I'm in hot water for my comments) have decided the youth should no longer be singing but learn to dance pop tunes -- and most of them secular.
The trend is for kids to learn dancing to pop music, call it church music, with no theology or doctrine, and for that to be it.
At this rate, parents should be taking their kids to the dance studio to learn church music, not music lessons. What are we developing when kids learn only to dance to pop tunes and not sing sacred song?
6:46 PM, September 04, 2008
"What was taking place at that church for the service?"
It was a regular Sunday morning service, nothing special.
Well, I guess it could be called "special", but not in a good way. Kinda like my sixth grade art teacher calling my scribbling "interesting".
Thats hillarious.
Wait a minute. The BOB is not eligible to become prez, is he? That's a definite violation of the separation between Lurch and State, ain't it?
I'm so ashamed. You made me spit water all over my keyboard. Baaad, baaad sheep!
NASS,
LOL!!!! Baaaaaa!!! I'm sorry about your keyboard, but I'm glad it wasn't Coke you spewed.
Water is much easier on the keyboard. :)
And I love being one of the sheep. I've have my time in the world, and I've my time in Him, and I know the difference. I would never change what He has done for me in the stead of any comfort I may get from the world. I am not a follower of any man or any group of men, but I am just a follower of Him. I'm just His. Owned and bought by Him by His sacrifice on the Cross. I'm owned by the real Shepherd. He makes me lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside quiet waters.
He restores my soul;
He guides me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake.
And even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil; for Thou art with me; Thy rod and Thy staff, they comfort me.
Thou dost prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
Thou hast anointed my head with oil;
My cup overflows.
Surely goodness and lovingkindess will follow me all the days of my life,
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
Baaaaaa. I'll keep on bleeting in His name. I'm so very glad to be one of His sheep.
Love you all in the Lord.
oc.
About Sarah Palin:
If you read Judges, chapters 4 and 5, you will see how God used TWO women in power. They were both wives, in fact.
Did not Queen Esther save the lives of the Jews?
Did God not raise up Deborah, to be a mother, and a judge in Israel? I find it quite interesting how a man named Barak followed her commands. :o)
Just sayin'
Oh tnlizzie, just say it again.
Just sayin'.
What's being said.
Of the 53 comments so far.... (not counting screen names)
Rick Warren (RW) (8 times)
Palin (12 times)
Steve Gaines [ie,SG] (3 times)
Rogers (13 times)
Bible (4 times)
the pronoun, "i" (57 times)
Jesus.... (Zero times)
". . . Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." Luke 6:45
,Aaron
Don't you just love it when these holier-than-thou types show up? If you don't approve of what's being discussed here, feel free not to hang out here. It's that simple.
Aaron,
I could give you the churchy answer and say "Jesus is in my heart" but we are deeper than that here. Jesus is my Savior AND Lord, and because of that everything I say goes through that filter.
Since I know most of those who post here personally, I can tell you the same is true of them.
So let's address your comments one at a time:
Rick Warren: It is my opinion that RW has done much to stunt believer's growth by the way he tends to continue feeding the sheep milk instead of growing them towards meat (this from first hand accounts from his church, Saddleback.) I also have concerns about the casualness with which he approaches God's throne. I believe as a whole we have forgotten God's Holiness and true Awesomeness. (Awe is a word that is not even close to how we throw around the word "awesome" now)
(Isaiah 6:3 "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.")
Palin: The direction of our country is of utmost importance. America was founded on Christian principles by men who believed the Bible is the book on which all morals rest. Our country has strayed from that and we need people in public offices that will stop the growing persecution of Christians and return our country to our Christian roots. I think that is what Jesus wants as well.
Steve Gaines: Well, I see this as a little odd, but SG is the reason a once strong church is now a shell of itself. His leadership of poor decisions has cost the body greatly. That grieves our Father and Savior I am sure.
II Timothy 3:1-5: "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
Dr. Rogers: Of course Dr. Rogers is mentioned as he was the pastor of BBC for so long. In this particular thread, his son has also been mentioned. As leaders in our convention, this seems perfectly acceptable to me.
The Bible: As this is our guidebook, and since The Word is God, I think this is synonymous, don't you?
Pronoun "I"- It is agreed this pronoun is probably overused, yet when sharing concerns, beliefs and thoughts, it is appropriate to note your source, which many times is yourself and what God has taught you though study, prayer, and experience.
Jesus: He is always present, always working through us, always teaching. He is the unseen guest in every aspect of our lives. He is the reason we sound the alarm and try to share all we have learned.
He is always with us. Is he with you?
Matthew 28:18-20 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
The verse about "Judge not..." is followed with instructions to look at the log in your own eye before you begin to help someone get the log out of their eye.
Is that what you mean by the "holier than thou" type, Nass???
The ones who don't look at the sins and weaknesses in their own hearts and lives but are quick in pointing at others??
Let's see... Aaron can add to his totals (which I wouldn't waste my time verifying)...
RW 2
Palin 1
SG 2
Rogers 2
Bible 2
"I" 13 (2 were Jesus referring to himself.)
Jesus 5 (not counting the 2 "I's" above)
It's simply amazing that someone would spend the time counting the number of occurrences of certain words in the comment string of an entire thread.
I guess it cuts both ways that "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."
"Is that what you mean by the "holier than thou" type, Nass???"
Not exactly. It just never ceases to amaze me that anyone thinks he has the right to come on a blog and TELL people what they should (or should not) talk about. Jump in and join whatever the discussion du jour happens to be, but as the "Aarons" and "SGs" and others have so often stated to us, "If you don't like it here, leave."
The following seems appropriate. I do not know who the author is, I have had it for years. (Oh dear, I used 'I' twice in the last sentence and now it is 3 times!!!)
Here it is:
You cannot pray the Lord's Prayer and even once say "I".
You cannot pray the Lord's Prayer and even once say "my".
Nor can you pray the Lord's Prayer and not pray for another.
For when you ask for daily bread, you must include your brother.
For others are included in each and every plea.
From the beginning to the end of it,
It does not once say "me".
tn lizzie,
You are a priceless gem!!!! I had never thought of Deborah and Barak!!!!! Wonder if Barak's middle name was Hussein?
Hey Aaron,
OC mentioned Jesus at least 18 times in one of his recent posts. You might have to read between the lines to find His name. ;)
Lily,
Missed you at Founders Days. I know you did not miss me though. How did that drudgery you were attending to go????
I liked your little sayings about the Lord's Prayer. Very interesting.
BTK,
I just have this to say to you...
You See It!!!!!
You Get It!!!!!
You Rock!!!!!!!
Thank you my sister!
oc.
Extravagant... My perfect and sinless Lord beaten, bloodied, abused, disgraced and spit upon and dying like a common criminal on a cross, yet to rise up from the dead and to obtain salvation for me, a lowly sinner. Because He loves. And because He lives. The Creator of heaven and earth spent Himself for me. That's extravagant.
Embarrassing... Dancing around like pagans, shaking the booty and shooting the tail straight towards Heaven, where my Savior awaits before He comes back again. And self-serving sermons that elevate and glorify self, forgetting that the Master is watching, and is coming back to make things right. That's embarrassing too. And when He comes back, arrogance will surely be taken care of in a sure, swift, and timely fashion. Much of what goes on in church today is more than just wrong.
It's more than just embarrassing. It's sick and twisted. It's sin.
But the day of reckoning is coming.
He's coming back.
OC,
No one has ever told me I rock before. Thanks dude!!!
We just had a visit from the pastor of a small church I visited a couple of weeks ago when hubby was "sinning" at the lake. Those are his words - not mine. Anyway we had a fascinating discussion. He actually agreed Lifeway SS material is shallow. I think I have found my church!!!!! The music minister (yes, they call him that!) teaches a young marrieds class (yes, I am too old for that and don't care!) where he goes verse by verse. He says they sometimes have a whole class on one or two verses. I loved the service I attended and now I'm loving more about what I'm hearing. Those of you still searching for a church - don't give up! You might find a jewel in some strange/small places........
Blog friends,
Please visit Wade Burleson's blog now discussing the Gilyard story....his many years as a PP endorsed minister and his not so secret life as a sexual predator.
BTK,
Where did you go to church??!!
Yo, yo, yo,
I've got my own page now, devoted to religious tolerance and communication--come visit me!
http://thecakesreport.blogspot.com/
Remember 9/11.
I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but I ask again if you would please pray for us.
This hurricane (Ike) will pass to our immediate west and could be more problematic than Gustav, at least for our area.
Blessings
Amos
The following shows how much Steve wants dancing in the church and thus ok’d the Bellevue Dance performance
Read his book and on page 125 Steve makes reference to his daughter and interpretive dance
Here
Now see the group in action for yourself singing the very song that his daughter preformed to
Here
On page 144 , 2nd paragraph from the bottom, Steve is quoted saying“
“That is because we’ve never said during their growing up years that, when it came to music, it was our way or the highway.”
Shame Steve will say (“it was our way or the highway”) to Bellevue members with no hesitation, but won’t say it to his own children.
On the bottom of page 126 and then onto the next page 127, Steve gives the steps he takes to get the congregation into the mood:
“I start by moving to the side of the pulpit and saying in a normal tone of voice, “Let’s begin today by inviting the presence of the Lord to come be with us in this service. Jesus goes wherever He’s invited. All of you who’d like to join me here at the alter for a time of prayer, come ahead.” Several dozen people immediately begin moving forward to kneel on the steps that go up the platform.
“I continue …………………”
“By this time I’m down on one knee myself………”
“I usually lead out in singing the chorus….. “
This is a staged event performed by Steve, the paid staff, and the deacons.
He then makes this comment about one of these “special” moments at BBC that happened at the end of the 11:00 service on 8/24/2008
"..God just kinda showed up.......God just came down on ME in a special way"
Gopher:
This was your thesis at the beginning of your post:
The following shows how much Steve wants dancing in the church and thus ok’d the Bellevue Dance performance
I don't think this was proven by the rest of what you wrote. Perhaps I just didn't follow your logic, but I never saw anything in the reading that supports that Br. Steve "wants dancing in the church" or that he "ok'd the Bellevue dance performance."
Not being argumentative - I just didn't catch it.
The more I hear about Sarah Palin, the more I just love her! She's a real person, no political robot, something we haven't had for years. I want her as President.
I am so proud of her.
oc.
Gee,
I don't remember "flow" being mentioned in the NT accounts of church worship. I also think we are way too focused on music in our services and not focused enough on the reading and preaching of the Word. If we need 45 minutes of music to "get us in the mood" to worship maybe there is already a problem.
I hate to quibble (more) with SG but when he came to BBC he didn't ask a few men to kneel, he asked the entire church to kneel. There was such an uproar he finally retreated from this and started asking the men who were able to kneel to do so. Also I'm not sure how it helps the "flow" for tons of men to "flow" down the aisle to kneel down there. I remember the aisles being flooded with men running to do SG's bidding. It takes awhile for everyone to get down there and then later back to their seats.
The leadership has decided that we are not to "perform" but to the rest of us it appears what is happening at church is a show or even maybe a circus. I think we need to move back to basics. I wish these things were just a problem at BBC but as many of us have realized, it is all over the convention. SG just brought it to our attention in a way that no one else could have done.
P.S. I think he okay'd the dance performance by attending at least one practice. He knew it was going to happen at some point. Apparently he feels some need to throw other staff members under the bus when complaints are lodged. The problem with many "shepherds" today is that they spend too much time deflecting and not enough time taking responsibility for what goes on around them. This includes my pastor at my SBC church. Too much passing the buck.
BTK,
Your "PS" said it all. It's all about image and CYA isn't it? No one seems willing to own up to their wrong doings. I find that in the adolescent offenders I counsel. It's everybody elses fault. "I was at the wrong place at the wrong time", or they just flat plead ignorance of the law, or blame someone else. Now that has become the whiney excuse for everyone, even pastors now a days. What I have to say to those who practice those sorry excuses is not eloquent, not even nice. My message to those who can't own up to what they've done is this... "You are a dang sissy. Now grow up and grow some..."
They don't like it, and they don't like me, but they know exactly what I'm talking about.
Just a thought that BOB might consider. :)
btk wrote:
"Apparently he feels some need to throw other staff members under the bus when complaints are lodged."
And apparently he did as per this letter the choir and orchestra recently received. It was from Mark Blair -- signed by Mark and Jamie.
How was Dr. Whitmire able to do this job alone but it requires two people now?
Seriously....just asking.
maybejustmaybe said...
I don't think this was proven by the rest of what you wrote. Perhaps I just didn't follow your logic, but I never saw anything in the reading that supports that Br. Steve "wants dancing in the church" or that he "ok'd the Bellevue dance performance."
Let me try again:
Was there not an interpretive dance performance done on the stage of BBC?
Did Steve ever apologize for this or did he just say he wasn’t here?
Is Steve Gaines not the Senior Pastor who lives a simple life that includes “leading” as he put it, in last Sunday’s sermon?
Does that not include what he has written in his book when he comments on Lindsey’s interpretive dance performance?
Wasn’t Lindsey’s performance done to the song “Shackles” by the contemporary Christian singers duo “Mary Mary” as seen Here ?
Were these comments concerning this performance not made in his book on page 125?
“We cheered wildly at the end…..”
“We were even happier when the judges announced her name….”
“We presented her with flowers and hugs….”
“It had been quite a show.”
Try This on page 130 Here
“How Much Control”
“So far in this chapter, I (STEVE) have emphasized careful planning …….”
“I believe the Spirit of God can guide us in a Thursday morning planning meeting….”
“We spend at least an hour or two each week designing our upcoming services …..”
SO EVERY SERVICE IS ORCHESTRATED
maybejustmaybe said...
Not being argumentative - I just didn't catch it.
Is there any wonder that this take over was done at BBC without most people knowing or anyone able to challenge anything that is going on?
Does Steve not attack anyone who questions him?
We can only sow the seed for others who will have to seek God for the truth which is being hidden by the leaders
Gopher says (and MJM comments in italics):
Let me try again:
Was there not an interpretive dance performance done on the stage of BBC?
Yes, there was.
Did Steve ever apologize for this or did he just say he wasn’t here?
I did not hear what he said, as I was not there in the service where he addressed it. It was my understanding that he both apologized and said he was not there. It is true that he was not present in the service when the interpretive dance was done.
Is Steve Gaines not the Senior Pastor who lives a simple life that includes “leading” as he put it, in last Sunday’s sermon?
That is true
Does that not include what he has written in his book when he comments on Lindsey’s interpretive dance performance?
Couple of things here, gopher. With all due respect, Dr. Gaines' leadership of our church does not preclude his daughter's performance of an interpretive dance number in a talent contest, does it? This is perhaps where your logic is beginning to be a little thin. Are you saying that there is some link between these two? Where Lindsey performed was not a worship service.
Wasn’t Lindsey’s performance done to the song “Shackles” by the contemporary Christian singers duo “Mary Mary” as seen Here ?
"Shackles" is actually an incredible song if you look at the lyrics. It's about being set free in Christ, which is what the whole book of Galatians is all about. American Idol competitor Mandisa also performed this song during the season 5 contest in a much different and more toned down performance which resulted in her being booted from the show - she was celebrating being set free by Jesus and the fans of the show felt it was inappropriate for her to make a "Christian statement" on national TV and voted her off. Mary, Mary's performance of "Shackles" is edgy - I can't speak for him, but I seriously doubt that Bro. Steve thought the interpretive dance performance at BBC would be anything like that video you have linked, and I'm sure Lindsey's performance wasn't, either.
Were these comments concerning this performance not made in his book on page 125?
“We cheered wildly at the end…..”
“We were even happier when the judges announced her name….”
“We presented her with flowers and hugs….”
“It had been quite a show.”
Sounds like a proud daddy to me. Again, he's talking about a talent show performance, not a worship service.
Try This on page 130 Here
“How Much Control”
“So far in this chapter, I (STEVE) have emphasized careful planning …….”
“I believe the Spirit of God can guide us in a Thursday morning planning meeting….”
“We spend at least an hour or two each week designing our upcoming services …..”
From a church planning perspective, this is true. Have any of you ever been involved in the planning of worship services? In most SBC churches, that used to mean if you were lucky, the pastor would tell you what he was preaching on, then the minister of music (I like that term too) would pick out a few hymns, try to make sure they hadn't been sung too recently, and then pick a choir special and/or a solo, then put them all in order. If you were at any church other than BBC in those years, that often meant there was very little continuity (or yes, flow) in the service from one thought to another. These days, even small churches may focus on heaven in a single service, or the cross in another - allowing one song's message to build on the one that came before. I see nothing wrong with that, and find that it enhances my worship experience as I center my thoughts on a particular aspect of my relationship with God.
But again, that's planning, and churches of all stripes have done that for a long time. However, that doesn't mean there's no room for spontaneity. The BBC sanctuary choir is accustomed to last minute changes, and fluidity is the order of the day when the Spirit moves our worship leaders to go in a different direction than what has been planned. That might mean scratching a solo or a choir special, changing or leaving off a hymn or - shock of shocks - extending the invitation after the song service and never even hearing the sermon. Can you imagine such a thing?
SO EVERY SERVICE IS ORCHESTRATED
Every service is pre-planned, or mapped out. "Let everything be done decently and in order," Paul says in 1 Cor. 14. Nothing about our worship should be chaotic - planning takes care of that. I fail to see that there is anything wrong in that approach, as long as it doesn't quench the moving of the Holy Spirit of God.
Hey Concernedsbcer...
It's like government. There is one needed to dig the hole, and one to observe the hole diggin'. The observer is to report that there is an actual hole. As if the digger of the whole could not report that. Yeah, go figger. :)
Just sayin'.
oc.
I've been reading Gopher's links and I just have to say I'm a little tired of hearing about "God showing up." We never had to hear about that when Dr. R and Jim W. were at Bellevue. This all started when SG "showed up." My husband and I talk about this because we hear this at other churches we have visited. My husband and I are believers. This means God is already with us according to the Bible. So we believe if we are in a church service, God is already there whether He likes what is going on at that church or in that service or not. He may not even like what we are doing but He is still with us! He doesn't come and go. We are sinful and He is still there. If I had to worry every day about whether God was going to "show up" in my life, I'd probably be really depressed right now.
When Jim W. was there we did have more than one person working in the music ministry. We always had extra people who could lead choir practice if Jim was busy doing other things. Ken Reich came on as youth minister of music but he filled in for Jim. Then Jon Tyner came on and he really did a lot to help Jim. He worked with the pit choir during the SCT and the PP. There were others who filled in when needed and did who knows what all behind the scenes. Lisa Parker was one of these people. She led the choir if everyone else was busy doing other things. The real difference here is that Jim was music minister over about 4000 people including all the children's programs and the orchestra and bands. Of course he had lots and lots of help in order to do this but Jim's real gift (I believe) is how he can build something from nothing. He demonstrated this when he went over to GBC for a few months. He said he was going to start a youth choir even if only 2 or 3 kids showed up and that is exactly what he did. He doesn't know the words "can't" or "won't." He didn't worry about how many people came to choir or volunteered to work with children's choirs. He put together great programs and ASSUMED the people would get there and participate. This is one of the great things about him.
All services are orchestrated. I think the difference here in what Gopher is talking about is that SG is making it sound like they just go with the "flow" when actually everything was planned out down to when he takes the knee and when he starts his solo. He writes that whole chapter trying to convince the reader nothing is orchestrated when it is so obvious from what he says that everything IS orchestrated.
"Lisa Parker was one of these people. She led the choir if everyone else was busy doing other things."
{Gasp!} A woman "led" the choir? Including the tenors and basses? Someone call Voddie Baucham!
My hat's off to Ms. Parker for the way she served as church pianist for a year and graciously responded (at least publicly) when she was unceremoniously shoved aside after Josh Stewart decided to come back. Nothing against Josh, but IMO (which means nothing to anyone but me) that wasn't handled well.
Not only did Lisa lead the choir during some practices, she usually did a better job than any of the men except for Jon Tyner. I was always thrilled when she practiced with us. There was another woman who led practices sometimes but I can't remember her name. She was also very multi-talented. She could fill in on the piano if needed as well. We had a lot of very qualified people working in the music ministry. It was never just one person and not only was Jim great at delegating, I think he would admit he had a great team surrounding him.
Was Josh not planning on coming back all along? I really wasn't sure.
Jim Whitmire was forced into early retirement in order to make room for
Jamie Parker
who was to take over the entire choir, Sunday morning performances and special productions.
Now Jamie is a choir of ONE after losing control of special productions and finally the adult choir.
Another example of Steve's choice of leadership.
For those who have been redeemed and truly Love God, this sermon will be a tremendous encouragent I know and a proiceless and precious reminder of How Our Great God accepts and Love Us...
GODS ACCEPTANCE OF HIS BELOVED CHILDREN BY PAUL WASHER
If you appreciated the sermon by Paul Washer as much as I did, you may want to have links to several of his compelling sermons that have blessed so many...here they are,,
LIST OF PAUL WASHER AUDIO SERMONS
Lisa Parker had a full load without adding pianist duties. I'm confident she was thrilled by Josh's return and was more than happy to hand over the ivories. She's a gracious person and musically world-class. So is Josh Stewart, for that matter.
JMH(BA)O
Seems to me that a lot would be cleared up to a lot of people if they in fact were at the worship service or watched a video of the service. Non-verbal communication and context clears up many problems.
Steve was not referring to himself as king. Rather, he accidently jumbled his speech between King James and Steve Gaines. Afterwords he said something to the extent of "we'd better strike that from the minutes before some people think I'm calling myself king." He knew there were many people from savingbellevue and other places that would have a hayday over this slip. Understanding context would clear it all up, but the people who already seem to hate Dr. Gaines aren't interested in context.
Gopher,
Obviously SG made a horrible choice but I truly think he knew this from the beginning. Surely he didn't think Jamie could handle all that stuff Jim did. It seems to me he set him up to fail and that is exactly what has happened. It did not help that Jon Tyner finally figured out what was going on and hightailed it out of there.
I agree with All2Jesus about Lisa. She's got plenty on her plate without dealing with playing piano too but I would hate it if she was shoved aside. However it would not be the first time this has happened to her and she seems content to put up with it. Others of us were not content to watch it happen.
Britt said...
...King...Steve Gaines version .. ..this slip......
"we'd better strike that from the minutes before some people think
I'm calling myself king."
Apparently the whole service was bad as all of it never made it to the BBC web site.
Question, hasn’t Steve been acting like the KING since he arrived at BBC?
-Receiving high compensation while cutting medical benefits to the BBC employees
-Telling people if they don’t like it they should leave,
-People asked to attend the 3 hours to fill in for the run-offs.
-Choir doing double services, (now with the new background, they are allowed to leave before the preaching of the 2nd service begins)
-Hiring David Coombs to run interference
-And on and on
It interesting how the defenders are always saying "Steve didn't mean that, he meant this"
We've heard this since the video from Gardendale emerged when Steve said that he told the search committee what he didn’t like about BBC,
here
Well it turned out what he didn't like about Bellevue was its members.
Read in the middle of page 123
where he references that:
“I’m not saying we pastors are always right or that we are JUSTIFIED IN BEING LITTLE DICTATORS.”
Now here he is admitting to the term DICTATOR in reference to the pastorate. Thought Bible refers to them as Shepard's that are suppose to "...feed MY Sheep" not beat them.
Well, if some think it's just a matter of "slip"s, "jumbled speech", or verbal miscommunication or any missed "context" concerning Steve Gaines' "kingship", then let's go ahead and talk about some other things that reveal his kingship...just a few incidents, because I can't remember them all nor do I have the patience to enumerate all that I do remember.
Just a few highlights...
How about the king taking his royal henchmen and hopping a fence in order to get access to a dissenter's home so that king and the king's men might "discuss" things with a dissenter ; ie. intimidate him; shut him up. And trespassing is apparently not a prosecutable offense as long as the king does it. And
besides, the fence was just "itty bitty" anyway. It's good to be king.
How about him making the decision to protect his kingship by covering up sexual abuse which was perpetrated by one of his trusted court officials and resulting in shame and scorn for the kingdom.
And the king kept the prince employed in the royal court yet feigned ignorance of the responsibility or consequences thereof.
And got away with it. And by the way, too bad for the prince's son.
But it's good to be king.
And palace security was on high alert and actually man-handled and apprehended an exteme threat to the safety and security to the throne. The deadly terrorist was... a teen-age girl in the congregation. Got away with that nonsense too. It's so good to be the king.
No, we sure don't have to hear him actually say it.
I just need to clear up one thing Gopher said. We were always "encouraged" to sing in both services. Many choir members did sing in both services unless they had duties elsewhere. They were always allowed to leave during the 2nd service and there were a few who left to sit with kids in the first service. My husband sang in 2nd service under Jim for years and left when the "song service" was over. We left early on during SG's reign so I don't have the particulars as far as what has gone on since he got there but that was how things were when Jim was there.
Hello blog friends!
How is everyone doing in life???
Does anyone know if cell phones float?
Just for the record, this morning, September 21, 2008, Steve Gaines said BBC is 10% behind budget so far.
Nass,
Would you please post that article by Anne Graham Lotz???
I really found that informative.
This one was somewhat interesting, too.
I'm thinking cell phones probably don't float very well.
Thanks Nass....that's the one....
and I'm pretty sure cell phones don't float either. But I can't be totally sure :)
I think I hear a sermo on tithes and offerings coming on. Of course that was probably last Sunday and the Sunday before and the Sunday before that and.......
I've only posted a few times over the course of this blog and haven't posted in quite a while. Myself and my family are still hanging on at BBC. We aren't being given much church related information at all. I was just wondering if anyone has any updated attendance numbers or offering numbers for BBC over the past few weeks? I would appreciate any information anyone has.
Hello...
Please note:
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/emerging-church/pulpit-magazine-on-mark-driscoll-and-harsh-language/
Ima
Hi, ima! Welcome back.
Your link.
Here is another article on the same subject.
Ima,
Before you open that second link....beware....he isn't using very minister-like words. It made me nauseated to watch it.
I believe Mark Driscoll is known as the "cussing pastor."
gmommy...
Yes...this is the point. There is a movement ongoing involving filthy talk from the pastors from behind the pulpit. It is sickening and disgusting. And we can thank Mark Driscoll for it. Instead of rebuking him for it, others are joining in. I have been seeing this for a while now. It isn't for the faint-hearted.
I thought I could reach more people here so I hope you don't mind that I'm off topic:
Hello you wonderful people,
My mom is back in the hospital as of last night. She got a cold about 2 weeks ago which has turned into another lung infection. The doctors are also running tests because her kidneys are not functioning correctly. As you know, she has more than her share of health problems and I just want you to pray for a good outcome of the kidney tests and that her lungs will again be well.
Please pray for me because I have bronchitis and since I am contagious, I haven't seen mom in about 10 days (we are usually attached at the hip!). I am having really bad anxiety and a real bad case of helplessness.
Finally, please pray for Carolyn Carter's father. He is really sick, but I don't have all the details on that.
Thanks for once again lifting our family in prayer.
Love, Karen
"I believe Mark Driscoll is known as the 'cussing pastor.'"
Maybe they'll put that on his tombstone. What a legacy!
Ima,
Have you heard anything about Piper going along with the cussing preacher thing??
This is very confusing. We protect our children from the world then take them to church so they can hear the preacher cuss?????
Well now, I knew about Mark Driscoll cussing in the pulpit but I'm just now finding out others are copying him. Things are just disgusting all over.
I also didn't realize Piper was going along with all of this. He needs to wise up.
BTK,
I'm not confirming that Piper is going along...I was asking because I saw something recently that left me with that impression.
I always forget details....that's why I wanted to ask.
gmommy,
Was it from the article I posted the link to at 12:02 p.m. today?
Yes, Nass....
is that connected to Piper?
See the "FYI" section about halfway down.
I was looking at a Memphis map today and discovered a Memphis street was named after our beloved resident M.D. -- Looney Avenue!
OK..duh...now I know where I read about Piper....taking more brain vitamins!
Interesting article.
Other than his pledge to vote for Obama (which has nothing to do with the article and is his prerogative), I say right on, brother! He hit the nail on the head and just reiterated what I said when I first heard this story -- that in nearly 20 years of publication Lifeway has never yanked this magazine from their shelves for any other reason. I didn't realize they'd featured "Reverend" Paula White on the cover before, but if that wasn't grounds for deep-sixing this rag, I don't know what is. Oh, wait... I remember. Female pastors! But isn't that what Paula White is supposed to be? This is the same store that sells books from such luminaries as T.D. Jakes, Rick Warren, and Mark Driscoll (the "cussing pastor").
Lifeway and the SBC should be ashamed of themselves. If it wasn't for giving Lifeway any business, I'd go up there and buy a copy myself!
New BBC Open Forum said...
I was looking at a Memphis map today and discovered a Memphis street was named after our beloved resident M.D. -- Looney Avenue!
Looney??
Dr. Loney would surely take offense!
I meant to drop by and update you all. This is what I received a few days ago.
"Senor Beel,
EEt ees good to finaly trak you down. I begeen to worree that maybe you ar keeled or something. Senor, theengs have no been thee same seense you no come bak. We no more have tes subjeck fore thee new hair reemoving lasores. I very sorree fore last tes burning on yore freekish man-tell. Have eet groed back yet me amigo? Allso, thee las chek you leev fore us, eet no good. I theeking to com to meephis to find you and get my monees.
Allso, thee ladee you mary las time you ar heere, why you no take hur to Teenasee weeth you? Senor, shee hav a Lonee babee aftore you leev. Eet ees no gessing whoo thee papa ees...thee babee, eet have a tell and ees vary much hairee. Wee tri and burn eet oft, but eet keep groing bak. Wee have to hide fore thee locals theek eet ees elchupacabra, and thay tri to keel eet. win thee mama breeng to mee to chekup thee babee, he bite Senor Grande'. I beet heem bout thee hed and nek reejun with mi nee reeflexor and hee stop bitten Senor Grande'. An senor Beel, thee babee hee no eat babee foods, but hee onlee eat meet frum thee canns. Also, I treet heem las week fore hee ees gored at petting zoo bi babee gote. Thee mama ees wonting you to seend monees, but ask you no seend cheks. Bes Weeshes
Dr. Nachos Grande'
MCCCOLMS Profesore and Deen
September 12, 2008 11:24 PM
The Loney legacy may live on yet!!
William T. Loney, MD
PS...DNA testing pending...I mean, come on, a lot of people have tails
Did someone already post Wade Burleson's blog post about taking the magazine off the shelves of Lifeway? Lots of interesting comments on there about other people who should be removed BEFORE a magazine with women's pastors on the front. We are a denomination with very wide beliefs. I don't agree with a lot of certain Baptist's ideas of what is in the Bible and what isn't. I would prefer they get rid of people like Rick Warren, Joel Osteen and the very popular book The Shack before they take that magazine off the shelves.
Just sayin'
What's wrong with the Shack?? I bought it....heard all kinds of good things about it.
One friend told me it would impact me the same way Hinds feet for High Places did...what gives???
The discernment ministry websites call the Shack "new age." It apparently does not depict the Jesus of the Bible. I have not read it but know people who have and are raving about it. Apparently it is pretty emotional. I would be careful reading anything before you check some discernment websites. Things are changing on a daily basis now and solid pastors are turning from the narrow road to the right and the left. We must be very careful.
I have read "the Shack" and it is a very unusual book.
The book is an allegory. So, if you are someone who believes God should never be presented that way, you will most definitely find this book offensive.
I do not believe many on this list will enjoy this book. It makes God out to be our friend, and makes God out to be willing to go to extraordinary means to help us in times of trouble, and the staunchness of God is not found anywhere in this book. Based off of what many of you have said about your perceptions of God, you will take great offense with this book.
For me personally, the book really gave me pause to think. I then spent weeks exploring scripture to find out what God's word said about some very specific things. I am not thoroughly completed yet, but to date, I have found nothing that contradicts God's word, but it surely contradicts the "norms" of church teachings.
For many this book has been a source of healing. For many, they were able to see God not as their enemy, but rather as their Creator who desires to be in relationship with them. And that as we draw closer to Him, our behavior improves. One of the quotes of the book is that you can't be "touched by the grace of God and not be changed to love better." This book offers not an explanation of evil in the world, but how we can still believe in the goodness of God and understand evil. I felt for that reason alone, the book had merit.
I think for many people this could be a very helpful kind of book. But as I said before, I can't imagine you all would like that kind of book.
BWG
BWG,
That sounds good to me...it iS an allegory..as is Hinds Feet for High Places which I loved and read the child's version to my son and to the kids I taught SS to.
I love the Old Testament. But I love the way Jesus lived and treated people while on the earth.
I'm reading it.
BWG,
I think it is wonderful that you read the book and then searched the Scriptures to find answers to your questions. Unfortunately I think far too many people would read this book instead of ever picking up the Bible and just assume whatever it said about God was true. I don't have a problem with Jesus being my friend as long as I also understand Jesus as Lord and Savior and God as Sovereign, etc. I think that is part of what is what bothers the discernment ministries about the book. God isn't just our friend.
I do have one question. Why would a believer think God is their enemy? Or are you saying you think unbelievers would read this book and now believe God is their Creator and there to help them and be their friend? Do you think the book could lead unbelievers to a saving faith in Christ? I'm not looking for an argument. I am very curious about it and I know I won't read it since I'm in the middle of about 4 other books right now. : )
Okay, I've been out of the loop and you guys are flooring me.
A "cussing pastor"????? I have never heard of such. How do you know this and WHY would a pastor cuss?
Bowtheknee -
I confess, I am not sure I want to answer your questions. Not because I fear you. But I have found certain people who post on this board to be so absorbed with what they believe is the absolute truth that they refuse to even consider that God does not present Himself the same way to everyone.
There are truths that are never going to change. Sin will always be sin. Sin will always keep us from God. The only thing that can cover over our sin and make us Redeemable to the Father, is the shed blood of the Son. We will ALWAYS be inferior to God. But I do think - much to the horror and disagreement of some - that God is a personal God, and He desires relationship with us, and that our relationship is a form of worship.
I don't know how people could read the book and NOT come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. There is a VERY powerful chapter in the book about the sacrifice that Jesus makes and what that sacrifice cost the entire trinity (told from the perspective of the Spirit). I think where Christians who have gone to church their entire life would have a problem with the book is that you can't help but walk away from the book loving the kind of God that you could just spend an afternoon walking through a grassy field with. It presents a God who is so endearing, who is so much like us, who is so personable - and yet SO much beyond us, and nothing like us at all.
WARNING ** Going to tell about the book ** MINOR SPOILER ALERT!
In this book, the primary character (Mack) has an issue with his earthly father. So God presents himself to Mack as a Black Woman. Now some people would look at that and be horrified because of whatever perceptions of God they have. When asked about it, God tells him, you couldn't bear to see me as your Father, so I changed myself so that you could look at me and see me. For me, as I read that part of the book, I really had to think about it. And I walked away thinking, I wonder how many times I attribute to God things that are not really Him.
SPOILER OVER
When I think about this book, I think of that song that says, "What if God were one of us." I don't by any stretch of the imagination think this is a theological masterpiece. However - I wonder how I would live differently if I truly believed that God COULD be walking around me - would I treat the people differently? God sees everything I do, so why should it be any differently - the truth is, sometimes despite my best efforts, I forget that - and for me it helps me to remind myself that God is everywhere. I think books like The Shack - offer people perspective, and opportunity to question.
I have read some of the discernment web stuff about this book, and frankly I find it to be a bunch of bunk. I highly doubt most of those people have even read this book. They are responding to a problem that I eagerly admit is in society. The problem being that God is like some wind system - drifting and floating, always changing, something/someone to be perceived in whatever way you desire and impacting people in any way they desire. I read a bumper sticker on the way downtown today it said "Obey God - He pays for it!" What a disturbing bumper sticker. What a disturbing idea. That God is something we can manipulate and control. It seemed to me from what I read that the discernment folks were saying this book was promoting that idea, that God was something that could be manipulated. In fact the direct opposite is true. The entire book is about how we are NOT in control. And about how as our relationship with God (all three parts) deepens we are able to rest in HIM and quit trying to control, judge, or determine what is right. That ONLY in Him can we be justified and redeemed.
The one flaw that I think the book has - is that there are some who could read the book (well one specific chapter) and say, see, Jesus loves everyone, so that is all that is necessary. As long as we try to love that is what is important. Now, they would have to eliminate a lot of the book. And they would have to isolate one chapter to say that (and in context of the entire book that is not what the chapter says) but I can see how if you ONLY read that one chapter you would think the author is promoting a peace and love agenda.
The book forces people to wrestle with what they have held as long term values/ideals/theories of what God looks like and how He behaves. I have yet to find anything that I could point to a verse and say that is wrong.
As a side note, I watched a video lecture - of a Christian professor at a secular university - who talked about how hundreds of students have asked him questions about God as a result of this book. Many literature classes are listing this as a mandatory read this year. He talked about how he has been able to present the plan of salvation in his classroom more than 10 times to over 1800 students since last May. Does that make the book flawless - NOPE. Does it mean it is opening doors - YES. Does it mean everyone who reads the book is going to get saved - no. But I also don't believe anyone will be led astray.
I enjoyed the book, it was easy to read (at least in understanding and in intrigue) but also it draws at your heart strings - it is an emotional book in the sense that I can't think of a single person in the world who has not in some way been impacted by issues similar to what the main character has faced. Not everyone has faced those same issues, but I think at one time or another, everyone has questioned why God allows or allowed something to happen. And this book offers a perspective that I have not heard before. Let me rephrase, I have not heard it worded this way before.
BWG
CSBCer,
Look at the video...it's real. To the WHY.....I'm clueless.
It's just wrong.
BWG: Thank you for your very eloquent summery. As I am a huge fan of "Hind's Feet" (I discovered it during one of the hardest times of my life and I give copies to friends going through similar times) I will certainly be open to reading The Shack.
Thanks.
Somewhat off subject, but timely...
Someone sent me this e-mail the other day:
I'm against the $85 BILLION bailout of AIG. Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a "We Deserve It" dividend. To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bona fide U.S. citizens, aged 18+.
Our population is about 301 million counting every man, woman and child. So, 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up. Now, divide 200 million, 18+ adults into $85 billion - that equals $425,000.00 each! Yes, my plan is to give that $425,000 to every adult as a "We Deserve It" dividend.
Of course, it would NOT be tax free. So, let's assume a tax rate of 30%. Everyone would pay $127,500.00 in taxes. That sends $25.5 billion right back to Uncle Sam! It also means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket. A husband and wife would have $595,000.00!
What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00?
Pay off your mortgage – housing crisis solved.
Repay college loans – what a great boost to new grads.
Put away money for college – it'll really be there.
Save in a bank – create money to loan to entrepreneurs.
Buy a new car – create jobs.
Invest in the market – capital drives growth.
Pay for your parents' medical insurance – health care improves.
Enable deadbeat parents to come clean – or else.
Remember this is for every adult U.S. citizen, 18 and older (including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehmann Brothers and every other company that is cutting back) and of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.
If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it! Instead of trickling out a puny $1,000.00 "economic incentive."
If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult U.S. citizen!
snip
I hope someone has by now informed the originator of this moronic idea that 85 billion = 85,000,000,000. And 85 billion divided by 200,000,000 is 425, not 425,000.
If they'd taken taxes out of the $300-1200 economic stimulus checks every taxpayer received earlier this year, it would have been roughly equivalent to this "plan."
Just another example of why you shouldn't accept things on face value. Do the math.
But I felt really good about the other guys math. ;^)
wishihadknown,
I know. Me too. NASS is such a party pooper. :)
BWG,
I don't believe God presents Himself the same way to everyone. We had an interesting discussion somewhere -it might have been Concerned's SS party - about if we are all Christians and all following the Holy Spirit's leading, why do we all disagree over so much stuff? That is really an interesting question to explore.
Thanks so much for your ideas about the book. I think this is a fascinating subject. You presented your thoughts very well. I'll let someone else argue with you about it. ; )
I believe much of the criticism of this book has to do with the viewpoints expressed in this review.
The objections seem to have a lot to do with the concept of the subordination of the Trinity. That's the thing where they claim Jesus and the Holy Spirit are "subordinate" to God, so by extension women are to submit to men who are supposed to be their symbols of God on earth. It's crap. If a lot of the men I know are the "symbol" of God on earth -- heaven help us all! Apparently this book (I haven't read it) treats the Trinity as the "three in one" we were always taught -- that is until this bunch came along.
Wade Burleson has written an excellent blog post on that subject here.
I have a few comments (of sorts) about the book.
Nothing personal at all BTK (cos we're buds:)
but if some "Christian" site tells me it's bad ...I don't think we should assume they are right.
Some books ...particularly an allegory... are for pleasure and are fiction.
Weren't the Left Behind books considered fiction?
My daughter thought the facts weren't scriptural.
My English teacher friend thought they were poorly written.
My good friend CSBCer thought they were biblically correct.
I think discussion like we had here about the book was very healthy. I think that echos what BTK thought also.
Also, I asked my son...ECS and BBC trained from birth...what he was taught about the Trinity as far as the subordination angle.
He was very specific (gave age, teacher, and scripture) that he was NOT taught that. He was taught they were equal.
The Bible teacher who had the biggest impact on my son was trained at Mid America.
I'm not praising MA...just sharing information.
In my best SS class...the one I have life long friends from....our SS teacher declared a cartoon movie out at the time should NOT be seen by Christians.
But Mike Foster ...a minister at BBC at the time ...said he took his kids several times.
So we are always going to have different opinions on books and movies and such.
I think we should know what we believe well enough to have discernment ...as BTK suggested....but also not be afraid to read and decide for ourselves.
NOW I am NOT talking about anything obviously inappropriate.
When my kids were growing up, if James Dobson said not to do something...I didn't. I've changed.
The days of depending and trusting that "leaders" have the answers is over.
gmom,
You have mail.
You have all the discernment you will ever need in the Holy Spirit. He will decide.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Gmommy you didn't offend me at all. The discernment sites I read were ones that I normally keep up with anyway - it wasn't something that just fell out of the sky as it were. : ) I agree with you - they sometimes go overboard and we have to use our own discernment. I will have to say the most powerful argument I've read is one from Slice of Laodicea where Ingrid mentioned that this book is being given out at tons of churches across the nation. Is this like when we were all told the Purpose Driven Life was wonderful and we should all be reading it and doing "Bible study" on it? I don't care how great any book is - I'm not falling for that one anymore.
As far as this Trinity issue goes, I believe the 3 are 1. Wade's blog post was very interesting. Thanks NASS for posting it. This is just another reason I find other ways to give to Christian organizations than through the "church." I refuse to keep supporting the SBC. If anyone is "liberal" in this argument, it is the ones saying that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are subordinate to God. That is blasphemy as far as I'm concerned. I'll let that group deal with it.
BTK,
I agree COMPLETELY! WHY is this book ...or any book ...being given out at churches??
We need to stick with studying the Bible....we don't have that down yet!
I spoke about The Shack as a book to enjoy. I think over the years(and I was in this) we have been told what to read and what to support....I'm OVER that.
I think there is wonderful literature to be read, beautiful works of music and art ....inspired by God for us to enjoy.
We don't have to just go with (who is the artist in Lifeway????)what's his name's art, or the praise music only...or even hymns only.
One thing I enjoy about my friend's "liberal" church is the gorgeous music.....it stimulates the mind as well as the heart!!!
I agree also about giving our dollars to people or causes we choose to support.
One of the local organizations I have supported in the recent past is the Moriah house. I've seen the ministry they do for women and children.
I'm embarrassed that just 2 years ago I was sending alot to Stanley and Dobson!
I have officially taken back my brain. I will be narrow in "my path" but no longer in my thinking.
As far as the triune God goes....I believe the SBC and others ARE twisting that for their own control purposes but ....problems always arise when we as mere humans try and put God in our little human brain box.
It's a mystery...just like the extremes of free will VERSES God's sovereignty....
who are we to think we have that all down??? We can't possibly grasp the full mystery and majesty of God.
Whn we begin to think we have those type things boxed up nicely so our brains can grasp the mystery(one God is my belief) ....then we become a Paige Patterson like character...or worse.....a CP...scary!
Snakes!
I have been hearing murmurings here and there about some kind of subordination within the Trinity.
The Athanasian Creed expresses the Trinity as thus,
"We worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity;
we distinguish among the persons, but we do not divide the substance."
It goes on to say, "The entire three persons are coeternal and coequal with one another, so that we worship complete unity in Trinity and Trinity in unity."
The three are One, the One are Three. Coequal and coeternal.
Knock yourselves out. :)
Isn't God great? I'm glad He's beyond my understanding, or else I would be god. Or someone else would be. And that would not be so very good.:)
Just sayin'.
oc.
"And that's all I got to say 'bout that..."
Nuf said then :)
Don't bite on any of this "subordination" stuff. Think it out to the logical conclusion. Not only is it heresy, it's also slavery in theological disguise.
Just sayin'.
oc.
What is the verse that says something like...it's the simple things that confound the proud ...
or maybe it confounds those who are well educated?????
I know I'm close to it anyway :)
I just read Wade's bog...his link is on this site.
I really do think the so called Baptists leaders and preachers are in terrible condition.
There is a minister posting using some body's book to back up that we have always been taught about the levels of authority in the Trinity.
Here's my SIMPLE opinion and comment.
It took me until I was almost 30 to grasp that Jesus IS God.(I think when you grow up in church there is so much you accept without really question...or thinking)
The very first verse my redneck daddy taught me was Genesis...In the beginning was THE WORD and the Word was WITH GOD and the WORD WAS GOD.
Ezekiel gave that verse on Wade's blog.
Doesn't the Bible over ride what ever commentary book ministers use...or when the good ol boys changed the Baptist Faith and Message in 2000???
It's ridiculous that this is being debated.
Jesus IS God IS the Holy Spirit IS GOD.
If the good ol boys are determined to bring this beautiful mystery down to their little pea brain level...fine...but those things will never change what this verse says.
I have notes in my Bible from the 80's when Bro R taught from Genesis.....it's a done deal...what's the debate????
Jesus IS God....the guy on Wade's blog even used the word "essence"....that's the word my sweet New Age friend uses all the time..."we are all the essence of God."
This would be funny if it weren't so sad.
If my rebel child
(who had the priviledge of a Christian education and growing up under Bro.R) says the Bible clearly teaches One God in 3 persons ...then I'm really concerned about what the SBC leadership is trying to push.
just sayin....
Hey guys, just some thoughts on the Shack.
yes, Hinds Feet is allegory and it is beautiful. The difference is that Hinds Feet does not put words into God's Mouth. The Shack does.
This gives me pause. I do not think we can humanize the Trinity even though we are given metaphors in scripture to understand such as Father/Son. I think it is very dangerous to humanize God (Read Isaiah 6) in any way or even to put Words in His Mouth that are not directly from scripture. I know there is some debate on how close the words are to scripture.
With that said, I read and listened to some interviews with Young and found him to be pretty orthodox in those interviews. It really is sort of confusing.
The Shack made me nervous as if I was going in a place where angels fear to tread. He is such a Holy God.
We are both to love and fear God. We hear lots about the love part these days but very little about the fear part. Fearing God is the beginning of wisdom. I am afraid books like the Shack humanize God to the point we lose a healthy fear of His Wrath and perfect Justice.
Just my 2 cents which ain't worth much.
Blog friends,
I just got a call that my daughter is having emergency surgery at this moment.
I am many many miles away.
Please pray.
My grandbaby has never spent the night away from her parents and a doctor we don't know at all is doing surgery on my child now. Please pray.
gmommy -
Will be praying without ceasing. Please let us know the outcome. Be at peace, sister - she is in the hands of the Great Physician.
MJM
I'm being told that there has been another exodus of people from Bellevue, apparently because they changed the "mission statement."
Our Mission (old)
Bellevue Baptist Church exists for the purpose of:
Magnifying JESUS through worship and the Word
Moving believers in JESUS toward maturity and ministry
Making JESUS known to our neighbors and the nations
Our Mission (new)
Love God
Love People
Share Jesus
Make Disciples
So let me get this straight. The same people who stayed through all of SG's antics, including letting a confessed pedophile and known sexual predator freely walk the halls for six months, now have their knickers in a knot because they changed the mission statement?!
Have mercy! {shaking head in disbelief}
gmommy, consider it done.
Praying for all involved Gmommy!
As time permits, keep us posted.
New BBC Open Forum said...
So let me get this straight. The same people who stayed through all of SG's antics, including letting a confessed pedophile and known sexual predator freely walk the halls for six months, now have their knickers in a knot because they changed the mission statement?!
Maybe they just can't tolerate the lack of alliteration.
I kinda like the new version better. (If a church feels it must have a mission statement other than the one given by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20, that is.)
VCY America and The Crosstalk program has a 1 hour long radio show detailing the evil of THE SHACK
THE EVILS OF "THE SHACK
Stay away from THE SHACK
Biblical Analysis here:
STAY AWAY FROM "THE SHACK"
"I kinda like the new version better."
I really don't care. In and of themselves, there's nothing wrong with either one. In fact, I never noticed the old one and wouldn't have known about the new one had SG not made a major production out of it the last few weeks. The new one seems a bit dumbed down, but again, nothing wrong with it that I can see.
Steve might want to actually practice some of that "love people" stuff instead of beating them over the head every week. I swear the man YELLS louder and longer every week.
I just can't get over the idea that people would leave the church over that when apparently the fact that SG let a confessed pedophile and known sexual predator freely roam the halls for six months was no big deal. I realize everyone's "last straw" is different, but this is like leaving because you don't like the color of the new carpet. Where are these people's priorities?
Nass - I met someone just this past week who had mentioned this. Didn't know the person prior to meeting them - we both were sitting waiting for some time so we chatted. I asked why this bothered them so much when keeping a pedophile on staff did not. She said, "until now, I convinced myself that he wasn't as arrogant as it felt, and that our church was under attack from Satan - until I realized we had given our church to Satan." To this person, she felt this mission statement was a rejection of God. Now to be fair... she did not say "this mission statement" she say to change the "focus of the church" I assume she was talking about this mission statement. She was also more than a little miffed off about the letter sent out, she thought it was ludicrous that JP needed more time to practice and work on his solo's...
I agree with you, every person's breaking point is the unique - but I confess, I didn't think this would upset anyone.
Sorry I was in a panic earlier.
My sweet girl is out of surgery...I got to talk to her. She was groggy but it was so nice to hear her voice.
Thank you for your prayers...she has some recovery to go but feels she got good care. Thank you!!
On the mission statement...I'm clueless....like Junk said maybe they liked it with the alliteration before.
I did tune in for a few minutes tonight to the "homecoming" service. It was strange for me.
Steve was leading a "singing" of sorts. He was sweating bad and entertaining...forgive me... but I thought of Elvis when I watched him.
It all seemed very Southern Gospel hour to me. Very emo and rocking....Jamie's dad was dancing around (or prancing if that is more PC)
Bette S. was the only REAL homecomer I saw...
who was the other gray haired man with the Gospel hair sparyed look who Steve called out to sing???
Watchman....
Chill please....it's FICTION...not the Bible.
I don't think Oprah is pushing it and why would we trust the "powers that be" to advise us on books??
Fiction.
She said, "until now, I convinced myself that he wasn't as arrogant as it felt, and that our church was under attack from Satan - until I realized we had given our church to Satan."
Wow. Strong words. His arrogance is growing by the week.
Just curious - Are all the original Pulpit Committee members that called SG still there and are regular attenders??
Are they STILL behind SG 110%??
Our Mission (old)
Bellevue Baptist Church exists for the purpose of:
~ Magnifying JESUS through worship and the Word
~ Moving believers in JESUS toward maturity and ministry
~ Making JESUS known to our neighbors and the nations
Our Mission (new)
~ Love God
~ Love People
~ Share Jesus
~ Make Disciples
Let’s see.
~ SG has removed magnifying JESUS, worship, and the Word (This should make people angry)
~ SG has focused on moving believers in JESUS (I couldn’t resist this one)
~ SG has removed maturity and ministry (Water is running shallow these days, yes?)
~ SG has removed making JESUS known (Methodists are great at “sharing Jesus,” and I did it for 21 years before I ever MET Jesus)
~ SG wants pupils or students. BBC used to be about teaching folks about JESUS...
If this is what it takes to move people to action, let’s apply 1 Thessalonians 5:16-22...
Keep in mind that people who leave BBC now will need the same kind of sympathy and encouragment we've shared for a long time now. Be gentle with anyone who has grown to the point that they can realize that they have been abused. This often takes years! Recovering from any type of abuse takes time...
1 Thessalonians 5:16-22 (NIV)
16 Be joyful always;
17 pray continually;
18 give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
19 Do not put out the Spirit's fire;
20 do not treat prophecies with contempt.
21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.
22 Avoid every kind of evil.
Anyone know the answer to BBNB's questions?
Use this as a guide.
Bob Sorrell is gone but aren't most of those men still deacons? I just saw a new list of deacons. Seems like I remember a lot of these names.
Bob visited my church (C'ville FBC) for a few weeks. Anyone heard what he didn't like about it? I'd be interested to hear. I told a friend of mine it probably has to do with the weird charismatic prayer stuff we are starting. She said she didn't know why that would bother him since the prayer walking had really risen to new heights since Steve has been there. I was unaware of what was going on except that the choir/orchestra was expected at some point to stay after practice to touch seats in the "worship center" and pray over them. That started as soon as Jamie got there. That was when I decided they really didn't need me in choir anymore. I'm not praying over seats, SS rooms, tables, chairs, parking lots or anything other inanimate objects. I do not see any examples of this in Scripture anywhere. The only thing that even comes close that I can think of is Jesus blessing the loaves and fish and those items are FOOD. I don't recall him laying hands on furniture and praying for it.
As far as the mission statement goes, I don't think churches need one however if you are going to have one the focus should be on Jesus. They almost took Jesus out of the new statement. I think He was just thrown in sort of like a bone to a dog. That will keep most of the masses corraled for now. Glad to hear some are still seeing the light. The church HAS been given over to Satan. I'm glad others are finally seeing it. When CHILDREN tell their parents they will not go back into the sanctuary because of the weird feelings they are getting, parents should listen. Children are very discerning. Stop slapping your kids thoughts down and listen to them. I can't tell you how many people told me their kids tried to tell them but they kept telling the kids to give Steve some time to adjust. Hey parents.....he's had plenty of time to adjust. He's continuing to tear down everything that had been built up over a 100 year period. Stop watching him and go somewhere else. There are other churches in the area.
BTK,
I am in agreement about children's radar!
We can learn so much from them.
Their radar isn't politically correct or prejudice or whatever yet.
I do not agree with your statement that BBC has been given over to satan.
I don't know what to term the state of that particular church and others like it ...but I don't feel (personally) that we are in a position to make such a strong statement.
Doesn't mean that can't be your opinion,of course, just that I am not in agreement.:)
Maybe we could just say there is some satanic type presence over there. I actually agree with that woman's statement who spoke with bwg. She's actually been there recently so she should know.
In other news, I happened upon Anne Curry of the Today Show interviewing that family with 17 kids that have a show on TLC. The woman is now pregnant with #18. I'm wondering if NASS can find a link to that interview because I thought Anne was rude to that woman. I don't want to personally have 18 children however, I don't think it is up to Anne Curry how many I have. One of her questions was something like "Where did you find a bus that LARGE, JIM BOB????????" You just had to hear how she asked it. He rather ignored her and just started describing the bus with 15 beds or something like that. I thought it was funny. Also the woman kept talking about how children are a gift from God and how every single one is a gift. Anne was pretty condescending.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26942419/?GT1=43001
Here is the interview with the Duggars.
Speaking of the Duggars, there's a new special about them on The Learning Channel (TLC) tonight at 9:00 p.m. CT.
Blog friends,
Just talked to my daughter. She got great medical care and the outcome was the best possibility with her particular problem.
I'm relieved to say the least. Thank you all!
This has appeared on The Cakes Report blog:
solomon said...
Keep in mind that people who leave BBC now will need the same kind of sympathy and encouragment we've shared for a long time now. Be gentle with anyone who has grown to the point that they can realize that they have been abused. This often takes years! Recovering from any type of abuse takes time...
Garbage, tn lizzie. Open your eyes. The only abuse that SG inflicted on the congregation is that they shouldn't move out of their neighborhoods because black people like me move in. No doubt that was offensive to many of the rich white BBC 'faithful' but perhaps it was welcome to many others like me.
Does it take years for the innocent white people like you to recover from the abusive black families like mine who just want to escape the crime? Or are you willing to welcome us undesirables into your fellowship?
I can't help but wonder...
September 29, 2008 10:31 PM
-----------------------------------
I replied:
solomon,
What in the world brought on this:
"Does it take years for the innocent white people like you to recover from the abusive black families like mine who just want to escape the crime?"
There is only one other time in my life that I have been accused of being prejudiced, and it was also by an angry black man. And apparently, neither of you know anything about me.
-----------------------------------
Have I missed something that would have made solomon's comments relavent? I really have no idea what he's so upset about...
-----------------------------------
solomon,
BBC has always had disagreements and problems, because there were more than 2 people involved. I have never claimed that she was a perfect church.
My family and I have been abused by Bellevue Baptist Church... by individuals, and by the politics of the corporation.
If you and your family are feeling comfortable under the spiritual leadership of Steve Gaines, then you have my pity.
If something awakens you to see enough problems within Bellevue (as she is currently being led) to inspire you to leave, you will understand the feelings many of us here have dealt with during the last 2 years.
IF that happens, I pray that you will find someone to walk with you as you move, away from a church that you seem to have loved, into the unknown.
My neighborhood could be on a poster with these words: Red and Yellow, Black and White, They are precious in His sight...
solomon, I am so glad that Jesus loves the little children of the world. Without Him, I would be nothing.
Wow, tin lizzie.....how come black people are allowed to assume prejudice? You are the most un-prejudice person I know!
concernedSBCer,
Thanks, sweetie. The worst spanking I ever got from my grandparents was for eating outside with their hired help. I was often disobedient but, sometimes, it was the right thing to do!
The flesh is a difficult thing with which to battle. Until a lot more of the people of Memphis can look deeper than the surface, prejudice will continue to reign here.
solomon assumed "prejudice," but that doesn't mean he is allowed to! I have found it useful to not make sweeping generalizations based on the behavior of a few.
just sayin'
Hey Tn lizzie,
I said basically the same thing about you on the other blog...you didn't sweetie me :)
concernedSBCer said...
Wow, tin lizzie.....how come black people are allowed to assume prejudice? You are the most un-prejudice person I know!
And yet lizzie is oh-so-quick to agree with those who have turned on BBC for racist reasons. You won't make sweeping generalizations base on a few, but you'll give carte blanche to a small number whose motivations you don't even know.
Maybe you've been sold out to the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" philosophy, but I greatly prefer the truth, light, and way approach. Don't assume everyone who hates Bellevue does so for noble reasons. Make no mistake about it, those who turned on Bellevue this past Sunday did so for one reason, that Steve Gaines chastised them for not loving their black neighbors. If you agree with them, then know for sure that we will never be in agreement since I am one of those black neighbors you've refused to love. If you're willing to accept that there are certain people who hate Bellevue as much as you do, but for the wrong reasons, then perhaps someday we'll agree.
Regardless of lizzie's "heart" she apparently has chosen to approve of the actions of those who can't see beyond the color of a person's skin. Was that inadvertant or intentional? I don't know, I'll leave that to her and her friends to decide. And I'll leave it up to her to decide just how attractive her new "friends" are.
And NASS, if you really care to remember why I abandoned your blog, think back to that night when I vainly attempted to make a rather insignificant point that it's not necessary to call a transgression 'sin' to condemn it. Lin was quick to condemn me for using the aorist tense instead of the Greek noun form, Watchman eagerly produced his typical belligerent attacks on my character complete with sermons from Washer and Noblitt, and OC shared his widely-approved condescending, belligerent putdowns of my character and motivations.
Perhaps someday we'll be able to work together, but not yet. Paul said that some disagreements started because some claimed to follow Apollos, some Peter, some Paul, and some Christ. I say that I follow Christ as do you, but you accuse me of following Steve Gaines down the highway to hell instead.
Understand this, that I do not follow any man's 'spiritual leadership.' Nowhere in the Bible is there a directive to let another man tell us what to think, so any accusation that I'm doing so falls flat.
I'm not sure who it was who dictated that the only appropriate way to show disapproval to the church leadership was to abandon the church. Perhaps if you'd show me a Biblical precedent I'd go along with it. But all I see in the Bible is example after example of men fighting for what God has promised.
Where are the so-called "heroes of the faith" Josh Manning, Tim Coggins, Jim Haywood, and Ray Saba? Happy as clams at their new churches? They've deserted all of us, both those who believe that Bellevue is worth saving and those who believe that Satan has already claimed it as his own.
Maybe it's time for a serious reality check on all sides.
tn lizzie: I should have said "some" people....sorry. :)
My dear, sweetest gmommy,
You certainly did, and I failed to mention my gratitude. Please forgive me for not calling you aSWEETIE, because you certainly are! :o)
"solomon" wrote:
"And yet lizzie is oh-so-quick to agree with those who have turned on BBC for racist reasons."
This is one of the most absurd comments I've read here! Where is this stuff coming from?!
"Regardless of lizzie's 'heart' she apparently has chosen to approve of the actions of those who can't see beyond the color of a person's skin. Was that inadvertant or intentional? I don't know, I'll leave that to her and her friends to decide. And I'll leave it up to her to decide just how attractive her new 'friends' are."
That was tacky, uncalled for, and completely fabricated by you! I challenge you to produce one example of us not "seeing beyond the color of a person's skin." I have stated what is an obvious fact -- that BBC's cameras are regularly trained on every black person in the congregation and choir they can find. I have concluded that this is to appeal to a targeted audience. That doesn't make me racist. I am not passing any judgment on the character of anyone because of his or her skin color. It just makes whomever edits Bellevue's broadcasts disingenous.
You're the one whose hate for us is palpable, Sol, not the other way around. You're making yourself our enemy by accusing us of things we're not guilty of.
As for "watchman," I wouldn't pay much attention to his criticism. The man sees evil around every corner, not unlike the way you see a white racist around every corner. You seem to think that "we" all agree with everything one of "us" says. Get this straight, Sol. You don't know who "we" are. I don't agree with much of what "watchman" says. I'm sure not everyone agrees with everything I say. It would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything. But isn't that what racists do? It's always "us" against "them." You're projecting, Sol. Cut it out!
"I am one of those black neighbors you've refused to love."
I hope you lay down that big chip you're carrying around on your shoulder before someone knocks it off for you. You come across as an angry, bitter person who sees all white people as your enemies. You're the one who's playing the race card, and it's getting old. You referred to your own family as one of "the abusive black families like mine." No one here or elsewhere brought up the subject of race. It was you. Stop trying to bait people. Stop attributing motives to people you don't know (we "hate" Bellevue, we "hate" you -- obviously because you're black -- even though no one knew or cared you're black). You said yourself you "fled" what had become crime-plagued neighborhoods along with many of your white neighbors. Now you want to criticize those same neighbors! Uh, pot? Meet kettle.
Steve Gaines immediately bought a house about as far away from those neighborhoods as he could get. Most of the staff live outside the city limits, too. Yet we're the ones you and SG criticize. Look around! I think a lot of us are in the same lifeboat here!
"I'm not sure who it was who dictated that the only appropriate way to show disapproval to the church leadership was to abandon the church."
I'm not sure either. I never heard that edict. People leave and join other churches all the time. Some move out of town, some go for a myriad of other reasons. I think many have left Bellevue for the reason you cite. Perhaps if that "leadership" had acted like leaders and shepherds rather than dictators and goons, dialogue and reconciliation would be possible. But when you can't even make an appointment to speak with the pastor, what does that tell you? (And don't drag out that lame excuse that he's too busy. Puhleaze!)
"And NASS, if you really care to remember why I abandoned your blog... "
Nope. Never thought about it. Nor cared.
As for what happened to the people you mention by name (you love to do that, don't you?), they may have left Bellevue (which is their privilege just as much as it is yours to stay), but we're not all out of touch as you imply. Two of those people NEVER posted on this blog -- not one time. It's true not as many people post on the blog as before. So what? I don't post nearly as much as I used to. No doubt most of us actually have lives outside of watching Bellevue and the SBC, busy lives and activities we even try to discuss sometime, that is until the critics show up. After all, most of us "eeeeevil white folks" have to work for a living -- you know, to afford those big houses we bought in the 'burbs after we escaped all those "abusive black families." I can't believe I'm even writing this, it's so absurd. Just using your own words to show how how completely hypocritical you are.
If you say we're racist, you're just as guilty as we are. Black people, contrary to what some would have you believe, are not incapable of being racists either. You're a prime example of the bitter, angry black man "tn_lizzie" was talking about.
Sol's post"
Maybe it's time for a serious reality check on all sides.
I agree.
..."so-quick to agree with those who have turned on BBC for racist reasons....
Make no mistake about it, those who turned on Bellevue this past Sunday did so for one reason, that Steve Gaines chastised them for not loving their black neighbors."
Reality check:
I'm confused.
No one has discussed anyone leaving this Sunday because Steve fussed at them. The only information I had and that was mentioned on this blog was that some were upset that the mission statement had been changed. We put both up to compare.
Where the heck did the issue of race come into this??
It's wild to just throw that in and expect us to own something we know nothing about.
We also discussed the Sunday night gospel hour on the blog.
That also had nothing to do with race.
It had everything to do with taste...as in it was way to redneck for me personally but if that's what the members of BBC like....great!
Sol, when you made such a statement about Tnlizzie's heart ..how in the world can you point the finger of injustice towards anyone else but yourself?
Nothing posted by Tn Liz even implies that she acknowledges or agrees with anyone who may have left BBC at anytime due to skin color.
You just made that up out of the air.
IF YOU are implying that Tn Liz agrees with racist people because you are also implying that the core group here on this blog left for that reason then ....there is NO truth in what you think at all!
I say to you again......PW's confession to SG that he was a sexual abuser had nothing to do with the color of anyone's skin.
To the core group here that was the last straw.
To others, the monkey business meeting was the last straw...that also had nothing to do with race.
As far as calling the men you named deserters....sorry but the truth is they were not welcome at BBC...that also had nothing to do with race.
If you believe so much of what grounded BBC in the past was about race...why the heck are you holding on so tight.
Is it BBC or us you are really angry at????
If you feel noble for remaining at BBC and you believe that's God's best for you....I affirm you, Sol!!!!!
But please don't be dishonest with yourself or with us by trying to make this a race issue.
"They've deserted all of us, both those who believe that Bellevue is worth saving and those who believe that Satan has already claimed it as his own."
Sorry...I don't know what you meant to say with that statement at all. The intent is very confusing.
Somehow, someone has managed to convince you that the problems at BBC are rooted in race issues.
I haven't been a party to any of those discussions so I am clueless but I assure you that when it comes to a minister inappropriately responding to a confessed sexual predator...I don't give a flip what color they are....either the predator or the one who decides not to expose him or expel him from the ministry.
Red, yellow, black, or white...a sexual predator is disqualified from the ministry immediately and forever.
Gmommy,
I think he was referring to me about the Satan taking over the place comment. : )
Sol,
Just so you know and are real clear: I left way before Saving Bellevue ever got started. I did not leave over any race issue. I did not realize there was a race issue. I remember some comments about letting the NEA and some Memphis City School teachers in to BBC for some type of function. I think we were upset about an extremely liberal group (NEA)coming into what is supposed to be a very conservative church. As Gmommy mentioned the latest conversation on here was about the mission statement being changed. Just more in a long line of changes that seem extremely unnecessary but as I already stated I don't see the point of a misson statement. I suppose we are all so stupid these days that none of us know the purpose of church and what we are supposed to be doing there.
And because I know you are soooooo interested, I am in the process of leaving another church - once again having absolutely nothing to do with race. Apparently I'm just a big quitter.
I don't imagine anything anyone has said will change your mind. If you are in Christ, then you and I are brother/sister in Christ no matter what else may separate us.
"And because I know you are soooooo interested, I am in the process of leaving another church - once again having absolutely nothing to do with race. Apparently I'm just a big quitter."
Yeah, no doubt it's still all about the music. :-)
Well he has certainly gotten a lot of mileage out of his imaginary insult. But maybe now he has enough info to re-assess
his assumptions and be able to come to an honest conclusion without prejudice.
Just sayin'.
oc.
" New BBC Open Forum said...
Wow. Strong words. His arrogance is growing by the week."
This week Steve Gaines lashed out at those whose family, friends, or financial advisers have suggested that they should move because their property values were falling and real estate taxes were rising due to recent annexation of Cordova by the city of Memphis.
Remember this is being said by a man and his staff who personally
DO NOT live in Memphis ,
DO NOT pay city taxes,
DO NOT send their children to city schools,
who as of yet have not had to deal with Memphis crime,
and then like a cult leader, begins telling the members what to do in their personal life.
Steve said also "... do not move one inch..." when he moved from Alabama to Shelby County
WOW what Consistency
Wouldn’t it be nice to see Steve Gaines send his children to Cordova High School so the members could see first hand how his type of evangelism is to be done,
instead Steve points to the congregation and says "...it is your job.."
This sermon (9/28) has now disappeared from BBC web site
"Wouldn’t it be nice to see Steve Gaines send his children to Cordova High School so the members could see first hand how his type of evangelism is to be done... "
Based upon where he lives, his one child who is still in high school would go to Germantown (9th-10th grade) or Houston High (11th-12th grade), not Cordova. You make a very good point though.
"This sermon (9/28) has now disappeared from BBC web site"
Are we surprised? The July 13th dance video was edited out. The August 24th service was never put up at all. (That was the one where he fussed at every group he could think of.) All those wonderful Sunday evening sheep-beating sermons from the fall of 2006 have disappeared. In fact, everything, morning and evening, prior to 2007 has disappeared. What are they hiding? Is Steve Gaines embarrassing the church so much they're ashamed to put all his sermons in the archives? My, the BBC editing department must really stay busy!
Thanks for sharing that Gopher. Now we understand why Sol was fired up.
BUT....home values are NOT going down because of annexation. We recovered from that already.
I'm sure SG is aware of the current real estate situation...but maybe that's uncharted waters for him too :)
The foreclosures are being calculated into the home values now.
All those homes bought thru sub prime lenders and shady builders (who are out of business now) at inflated prices so that the buyer could get their fees and closing costs paid for by the seller.
It was a train wreck waiting to happen.
This was caused by corrupt lenders...again, not a race issue.
I can't believe SG is blaming the annexation ....isn't he just a few years too late. The people that were moving away because of annexation did that several years ago....maybe 4 years or so.??
Shoot. A dude who probably makes a half mil a year isn't worried about any real estate situation. Or any other economic crisis for that matter. Otherwise, he might take a big pay cut and give it to the poor. And maybe do something for the inner city people. Maybe move there and prove how much cares.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Yeah, no doubt it's still all about the music. :-)
Ha ha! Very funny. As NASS already knows it is because of a general lack of reverence for God that seems to be spreading through the entire convention. If you can find a church where there is true reverence, praise God and find a place to serve!!!!!!
Are we surprised? The July 13th dance video was edited out. The August 24th service was never put up at all. (That was the one where he fussed at every group he could think of.) All those wonderful Sunday evening sheep-beating sermons from the fall of 2006 have disappeared. In fact, everything, morning and evening, prior to 2007 has disappeared. What are they hiding? Is Steve Gaines embarrassing the church so much they're ashamed to put all his sermons in the archives? My, the BBC editing department must really stay busy!
12:00 AM, October 03, 20
This past Sunday morning at the 9.A.M. T.V. broadcast SG made the statement that other Preachers had wanted him to put his sermons on the internet but he was not going to put them out there for them to copy...That is just stealing he said......So there is the excuse for no sermon on the bellevue site...He don't want anyother Preacher stealing him sermons:)
For some reason 8 and 9 o'clock services were different ones...
Haven't posted in awhile but could not resist this one....Do keep up with you all tho....
With all the political stuff going on we really miss Dr. Rogers being here to uplift us and guide us with the word of God...I am so thankful for the notes I took and can refer back too as I read my Bible.
"This past Sunday morning at the 9.A.M. T.V. broadcast SG made the statement that other Preachers had wanted him to put his sermons on the internet but he was not going to put them out there for them to copy...That is just stealing he said..."
:-O
"Lwood said...
What are they hiding? Is Steve Gaines embarrassing the church so much they're ashamed to put all his sermons in the archives? My, the BBC editing department must really stay busy!"
Does any one know what Steve really means about ....other people…. house values….etc, ??
Watch This
Remember this in the middle of this message and where he claims people are “…going to HE//…”
13 years ago to the day, Orenthal James Simpson ruined my birthday by getting away with murder. Yesterday, I got the best present I could ever get for my birthday.....Orenthal's goin to Jail!!!! He got convicted on all 12 counts in his robbery trial.
Well stealing is a sin. : )
For anyone who still cares about The Shack, there is an interesting message about it from Dr. Young at Grace Evangelical Church in Germantown. You can easily google to find this message or I'm sure someone can link it for us. For those of you who would rather hear a more balanced view, I think this is the one for you. He starts out talking about how he does not want their church to be known for what they are against. He says he did read the book two times. The second time he took notes and wrote down page numbers. He explains why he is so passionate about the error in this book. He also explains why it is important to correct the error in fiction. He calls this book theological fiction. I think this will answer concerns from some of you about why a simple allegory would be such a big deal. I thought he did a good job and by the end of it he became very passionate and I was actually crying a little at the very end. I'm really an emotional person but I did surprise myself.
Gopher,
That video was SG telling some pointless story about a kid wanting cake...not about house values.
Sorry but what a joke about not posting his sermons for fear that someone would steal them.
There's no content anyone COULD steal in the ones I have watched live on the internet.
Yelling at people and ranting about issues to manipulate ISN'T preaching the Bible.
Putting his own spin on what the Bible MEANS to him and not at all what the Bible says isn't something people would want to steal.
Goodness that's arrogant!
So good to hear from lwood! Hope you are well!
I know we miss Bro R but we've learned so much thru all this.
I personally see the danger in having a Bro R the way we did.
Then we expect other pastors will have the same devotion to the Lord and the same integrity.
We aren't as discerning when we are comfortable. It's easy for the fakes to slip in when we are comfortable and when we put so much trust and emphasis on the pastor.
We have to learn from all that we have experienced or it will continue.JMO
gopher said..
What are they hiding? Is Steve Gaines embarrassing the church so much they're ashamed to put all his sermons in the archives....
LWOOD said....
Gopher.....
He doesn't want other Preachers stealing his sermons....As for embarrassing the church that could also be true but then????That just adds to the list.....
Have a great Sat. everyone. Get out and enjoy the beautiful fall day the Lord has given to us....I am on my way out the door!!!!!!!
Worried about stealing sermons?
Gee, and all along I thought preachers were supposed to be preaching the gospel and the good news was to be spread openly and freely... I guess unless what is spoken from the pulpit is not the gospel.
So maybe that doesn't apply to mere speeches.
Just sayin'
oc.
If the prayer, inspiration,study,preparation,and delivery of a sermon for the benefit of the people of God is of the Holy Spirit, then who owns that sermon?
If it's only a speech, then no wonder everyone is looking at their watches and thinking about lunch.
Lynn,
Happy Birthday my brother!
I'm glad God made you!
Your bro,
oc.
A preacher should study the text, pray, and rely on the leading and illumination of the Holy Spirit when preparing sermons, rather than just looking for a good outline or illustrations from another preacher. But if, for whatever reason, a preacher choses to use a sermon he has heard from another preacher, I would think that the original preacher would be humbled and/or flattered, not upset by it. As OC indicated, if the message is from God, why would the original preacher not want it to be shared as widely as possible? I can't think of any reason other than personal pride -- the arrogance of a preacher to think he "owns" what he has preached.
A friend told me this week about a small church she visited once where the pastor had preached for years and had been much loved by the congregation, but he had died several years before. Rather than find a new pastor, each week a member of the church would get up and read a different transcript of one of the deceased preacher's sermons. I know, it sounds strange. And I'd suspect that it was a pretty dysfunctional group of folks, who may have had some pastor worship going on. But, then, J. Vernon McGee has been dead for nearly 20 years, and last time I checked his "Thru the Bible" radio program was still going strong.
So it all got me thinking -- what would it be like if a bunch of folks got together and started a church, a real, full fledged traditional Baptist church, with Sunday School, congregational hymn singing, nursery, visitation, evangelism ministries, youth programs, the whole bit -- but in each week's Sunday service, when it came time for the pastor to preach, they watched a video of a sermon by Dr. Rogers? Yeah, I know a person would never get to know their preacher personally in that situation, but how many people at a church the size of BBC really get to know the pastor anyway? This could the the solution of the future for mega-churches, to prevent the struggles that inevitably come with a change in pastors. I mean, if the Lord tarries, even John MacArthur will die or retire someday, right?
Hey Junk,
I would feel so blessed if anyone in any church in any part of the world would ever care to use any part of any message I've spoken in order to bless anyone else. The humility would just crush me.
But it's not that way anymore.
It seems it is no longer about the Gospel, it's about how we can feel better about ourselves, and get popular.
No more searching Scriptures for any understanding of the tinyness and wormliness of ourselves in relation to Him.
No, we're big shots now. And we demand our credit.
And I'm sad that it seems we cannot carry on beyond our beloved messengers. It just proves that our faith has been misplaced.
That is our lack, the fault belongs to no one else but our ourselves. It's but spiritual laziness and misplaced trust. Should have been trusting in Jesus.
And I don't think I should go any further with this right now.
Just sayin'.
oc.
I really like your idea Junkster. Probably would have 2000 members within a month. I would love to see a church return to being traditional. Sadly no one will give us that option. After all according to the preachers I have heard lately only the contemporary or blended service churches are "spiritual or Godly."
But the real problem is that we are all so stupid (according to the thinking and preaching of the big dogs today)
We couldn't have a church without the proper authority over us!!
Scripture has to be twisted and embellished from the pulpit.
Why....we have to have that annointing dripping from the the pastor is a bishop is an elder....on us for things to work right....
the good ol boys decided against the priesthood of the believer ...shoot...we can't even be saved without a preacher near by.
And then there would be the problem of the men who think they are over all women...and absolutely no women teaching boys over 8.5 years old!!!( I made that age up:)
I reckon I will set me up some kinda profitable bidnet.
I reckon I will sell sermons to Steve Gaines. Next week, "Why I Am Fearful Others May Use My Sermons". The following week is "It's Certainly Not My Fault, Nothing Ever Is". And the third week, "You Get What You Pay For, NOT, But You're Stuck With It Anyway".
I love Junk's idea but can we pipe in old Jim Whitmire music too???? I love the old services. If we did this, it would lead people to believe we really did worship Dr. Rogers. I can see the newspaper headlines now....
THERE'S A NEW THREAD IF YOU'D LIKE TO MOVE UP!
It is a sad day when we have so much time that we can attack others without regard to damage done. If it broke fix it. If you do not know how to fix it find someone who does. If you do not know someone then let it alone because it is bkgger than you are.
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