This Is Church
by Scott Wesley Brown, Dwight Liles and Niles Borop
Sunday morn, Africa, hear the children sing.
Before an altar in the bush they praise the King of Kings.
Pastor stands, prays a prayer, earth beneath his feet.
Thank You, Lord, for You are good; You bless us when we meet.
(Chorus)
This is church when we gather round to praise the Lord above.
This is church when we walk in truth
And show each other love. Not of wood or bricks and stone, but of people first;
Anywhere God’s children are, brothers this is church.
Sunday morn, Siberia, deep within the wood.
Under blue cathedral skies they read the Holy Book.
Pastor kneels and prays a prayer, sun upon his face.
Thank You, Lord, for You are good to meet us in this place.
(Chorus)
This is church when we gather round to praise the Lord above.
This is church when we walk in truth
And show each other love. Not of wood or bricks and stone, but of people first;
Anywhere God’s children are, brothers this is church.
Sunday morn, Jerusalem, many years ago,
the first believers gathered there and the Spirit flowed.
They broke the bread and prayed a prayer, met each others’ needs.
The Father saw that they were one
And His heart was pleased.
There has been some discussion lately about what the purpose of church is and I think would warrant a good discussion.
Questions:
What is the purpose of church?
1) For sinners to be saved?
2) For believers to worship God?
3) For believers to learn about God?
4) For believers to fellowship?
How often should we be in church? Is "Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night" scriptural or a fairly new tradition?
How do the SBC and Cooperative Program line up with Scripture regarding a church's responsibilities?
Is there a "better way" to "do church" than we are seeing? What should change? What should stay the same?
by Scott Wesley Brown, Dwight Liles and Niles Borop
Sunday morn, Africa, hear the children sing.
Before an altar in the bush they praise the King of Kings.
Pastor stands, prays a prayer, earth beneath his feet.
Thank You, Lord, for You are good; You bless us when we meet.
(Chorus)
This is church when we gather round to praise the Lord above.
This is church when we walk in truth
And show each other love. Not of wood or bricks and stone, but of people first;
Anywhere God’s children are, brothers this is church.
Sunday morn, Siberia, deep within the wood.
Under blue cathedral skies they read the Holy Book.
Pastor kneels and prays a prayer, sun upon his face.
Thank You, Lord, for You are good to meet us in this place.
(Chorus)
This is church when we gather round to praise the Lord above.
This is church when we walk in truth
And show each other love. Not of wood or bricks and stone, but of people first;
Anywhere God’s children are, brothers this is church.
Sunday morn, Jerusalem, many years ago,
the first believers gathered there and the Spirit flowed.
They broke the bread and prayed a prayer, met each others’ needs.
The Father saw that they were one
And His heart was pleased.
There has been some discussion lately about what the purpose of church is and I think would warrant a good discussion.
Questions:
What is the purpose of church?
1) For sinners to be saved?
2) For believers to worship God?
3) For believers to learn about God?
4) For believers to fellowship?
How often should we be in church? Is "Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night" scriptural or a fairly new tradition?
How do the SBC and Cooperative Program line up with Scripture regarding a church's responsibilities?
Is there a "better way" to "do church" than we are seeing? What should change? What should stay the same?
Thanks to "concernedsbcer" for this topic idea.
464 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 464 Newer› Newest»Is Jesus God?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
gmommy of the rr said:
SOTL...
you haven't commented on the wonderful SBC decision and them saying (to applause) that they are doing everything they can to protect the children...??
*****
Gmom,
Well, it was so disgusting that i have no words for it. It was a knife in my heart, and I have pretty much decided that church is no place for me.
Boy, Ezekiel, you started the day off with a smash!
My knee-jerk answer is, Yes, of course Jesus is God. It's the Trinity copncept that is almost impossible for our timy brains to comprehend, IMHO.
Part of church has to be giving...of time, resources, money. We have had several in-depth discussions here on the tithe and how it should be dispersed and if a tithe is Biblical at all. I do think we can all agree that it is scriptural to support God's work with our resources. I want to share something I would like to be considered.....
For about 9 years my family and I have worked extensively with the Tennessee Baptist Children's Home. If you have never visited there, you might want to go. They have 2 campuses here in the Memphis area: one in Bartlett on Summer Ave. just north of Stage, and The Boy's Ranch in Millington. I have been to both locations and the work done there is stupendous. Children from all sorts of horrendous situations are given a safe place there, a place to live within a family unit, to be taught the things of God, to be shown the value of hard work and to be loved.
There are many success stories that can be discussed right now.....the successful college student that begged to come live at the Children's Home at the age of 15 because she knew her home would be poison for her if she stayed; she now is a strong Christian speaker (you may have even heard her!).......the young man who has graduated college and is working in a great job, totally self-sufficient and strong in his faith. There are other stories that we probably won't hear until heaven.
The Children's Home is needing some financial gifts right now. See, giving has stayed consistent for many years, but the cost of maintaining multiple large "family" households has increased dramatically. Gas, electric, insurance....all are operating expenses that have caused a pinch to be felt at the Children's Home. If you are praying about a donation, I would encourage you to pray about the Tennessee Baptist Children's Home. They need donations for the general operating fund.
They also have need for volunteers at all levels of time commitment. They have cottage sitters (once a month, 3-4 hours), friend families (take a child into your home over holiday weekends), summer classes for crafts, tutoring, cottage parents......if you have a talent or love, they can use it! I have scrapbooked with the girls, taught a poetry class, taught basic cake decorating, and sewed. It is a wonderful ministry that truly has rewards now and later.
Thank you for considering this worthwhile life-changing ministry.
(my word verification starts with OX....time for you to post!!!)
Please excuse me. But for all the fancy dancing, and the 200 plus comments...I still haven't heard the answer.
Please tell me. What is "church"?
PS. Concernedsbcer.
I've giving to that ministry in various ways and will continue to do so. Because it's about the heart.
Just sayin'.
oc.
oc said, "Please excuse me. But for all the fancy dancing, and the 200 plus comments...I still haven't heard the answer. Please tell me. What is 'church'?"
As a kid in Sunday School, we used to sing a song that went something like this:
The Church is not a building.
The Church is not a steeple.
The Church is not a resting place,
The Church is the people.
I am the Church.
You are the Church.
We are the Church together.
All who follow Jesus,
All around the world…
Yes, we’re the Church together.
Concernedsbcer has suggested that the TN Baptist Children's Home is doing the Lord's work, and would be blessed by our tithe money. In the past, I've read the same idea about Love Worth Finding and Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary...
Hmmm ~ Seems we started as a church blog. Are we becoming a Blog Church?
Just sayin'
:oD
So what is "church"?
Well... that sure seemed to kill the discussion. :-(
I see ...
so what we get from Acts is that church and we ...suck.
okie dokie.
I have to say though that I'm not sure we're any closer to answering the question in the topic heading than we were two days and 214 comments ago. It's simple enough to recognize what church isn't, but what is church to you? It probably won't be exactly the same to any two people, but are there certain aspects of it most of us can agree upon?
Nass -
It would seem that is an easy task. But as you pointed out, the past 216 posts have not shown a general sense of "agreement" on very much. However, rather than focus on what we do not agree on. Let me list the things I found us agreeing on.
We do agree the purpose for the death and resurection of Jesus (I think).
We agree that for most (if not all of us) the church is not meeting our needs.
We agree that this current status of the church is not what God intended.
My two cents - for me, church happens in a lot of places and for me sometimes that is in the building I attend on Sunday's and often it happens in other places. I count it as "church" whenever I, along with at least one other person, draw close to the throne of God together. Sometimes we come together just to worship, praise, and bless the Lord. Other times, we draw close together, in humility and ask God to show us in what ways we can become more like Him.
Blessings.
The old hymn says, "The church's one foundation is Jesus Christ the Lord."
That is the bottom line. The church must be built on that foundation and strengthened with His Word.
What is church to me? Church is several things. I guess first it's a SAFE place. I can worship without fear. I can discuss issues without being personally attacked. I am accepted without judgement. I am loved with grace. I am also loved enough to have people "speak the truth in love" to me.
Banding with a group of believers, great things can be done for God.
Bkwm girl, you are right. There are not many that meet these criteria, but we can continue to work towards it.
1 Corinthians 1
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Corinthians 3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
One last post from me on this stream.
This Original Post excited me and I was so involved in it, I wanted to get some real answers.
It was a post that I would have suggested if I was smart enough to suggest it. And I got so carried away, because it meant so much so much to me.
I'm still looking for those answers. I hope my siblings in Christ know those answers. So
brothers and sisters,if you do know the answers, please don't let me sit and wonder.
That's it for me. I won't bug you anymore on this subject. I got too excited about this topic, and I am starting to feel really sorry that I did. I take it too personally, and that is my failing. Therefore I may have approached it wrongly.
I hope ya'll can forgive my transgression. I'm sorry that I got so carried away.
Don't forget that I love you though.
oc.
Church means 'assembly' or called out ones. Church is not about us but about Jesus Christ.
1. We should be praising Him
2. We should be worshiping Him
3. We should be deeply studying His Word together
4. We should be encouraging each other on to Holiness
Another interesting aspect of the Body:
1 Corin 12
There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same[b] Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
Unity and Diversity in One Body
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[c] one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[d] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.
When is the last time you saw this happen in a main service at any church?
1 corin 14
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
I'd like to hear people's ideas about what the modern day church would look like to them. I don't know the answers anymore. But I sure know what church is NOT when I see what's masquerading as "church" today. Here are some examples.
Define "prophesy" (the verb). All I can envision is the "word of knowledge" stuff we see today.
And I'm sorry, but I will never get used to the raising-hands-in-the-air-with-a-far-away-dreamy-trance-like-look-on-the-face shows we're being treated to at Bellevue now. They zero in on the same individuals in the congregation every week. (I think some of them must have contracts with the church that stipulate they have to get a certain amount of "face time" each week.) Some of them seem to be putting on a show just for the benefit of the TV viewing audience.
It is absolutely amazing and frightening to watch what's going on over there. I am convinced there is something evil afoot there, and I don't say that lightly. If you watch a Love Worth Finding broadcast from even a few short years ago and compare it to a Bellevue service today, you wouldn't know it's the same church. Steve and Jamie, with their repetitive, trance-like music, work those people into what appear to be trance-like states, and with their "Victory Chant" which contains the phrase "There's no God like Jehovah," repeated at a frenetic tempo some 15 times in a row during every verse, accompanied by a loud, crescendoing, tom-tom drum cadence, and that "Taste and See" clapping fest the choir did a couple weeks ago, they're working the people into a frenzy. Three Sundays ago was "lift your hands" day. Steve had them all raising their hands in the air the whole song service. "Now, I don't want to embarrass anyone, but if you'll just close your eyes and lift your hands.... " Ahhh ummmmm.... It's bad enough Jamie keeps everyone standing through the whole song service; now Steve has them all holding their arms up. It looks like they're pledging allegiance to Steve, not God. I fully expect someone to start speaking in tongues any second. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not already happening in the pews. Mark my words -- it will happen sooner or later. Will we soon see dancing in the aisles and people being "slain in the spirit"? Or maybe a "miraculous healing" is in the works. I guess we'll have to stay tuned.
I think that was the same week he began by saying the subject of his sermon that morning was "Is Jesus Really God?" Duh.
Gaines continued with the weirdness the next Sunday morning. At the beginning of his sermon he picked up a cutting board with a loaf of bread on it and announced that he'd learned how to bake bread that week. He said he Googled it. Of course, he explained, he hadn't actually baked bread (we all know that's "woman's work" LOL!), but he knows how it's done now. And he proceeded to tell us. Then at the end of his sermon (there was a lot of yelling in between) he picked up a knife, and they showed a close-up on the IMAG of him slicing the bread. Then he took the slice of bread, broke off a piece, and put it in his mouth. He got this far-away, dreamy look on his face and while still chewing said, "Oooooooh, don't you wish you could have some of this? Ummm... oh, it's sooooo good!" {chomp, chomp, chomp, gulp} Then, to emphasize his point (whatever his point was), he broke off another bite and stood there dreamily chomping away. I mean, this guy has gone off the deep end the past few weeks!
When I suggested this thread to Nass, I had several ideas.
I wanted all of us to go back to the Bible and really see what the definition of church is.
I wanted us to ponder what we could give in a church situation.
I wanted us to take a look at some of the trends in churchdom to see what is cultural and what is scriptural.
I think it is true that many of us see church in totally different ways. Sometimes it's easy to get caught up in the current fad of Christianity. I hope this thread encourages all to rethink those fads in light of scripture, much of what has been already posted here.
That being said........
What is the purpose of church?
1) For sinners to be saved?
2) For believers to worship God?
3) For believers to learn about God?
4) For believers to fellowship?
What is church?
Church is where they pretend to care about you, unless, of course, they are trying to cover up for a hedonistic leader, and then you aren't worth anything to them.
Church is where they steal your personal file and make it available for anyone to peruse thru it.
Church is where children are not protected, and where they see no need to protect children.
Church is where they feel compasson for a man that molested his son, but feel no compassion for the son that was molested.
Church is where 15 y/o girls are handcuffed because they are in church.
Church is where a sunday school teacher would have the audacity to say, about a molested child, " He only did it once".
Church is where people are nice to your face and accept your gifts, yet slam you behind your back.
Church is where you are scorned at because the exhusband of your sister is playing like he's never been married before, and doesn't want you there to spoil their phisod.
I'm done with Church.
SOTL: I am so sorry.
I do think there are still Godly churches out there. I hope you know how much you mean to me specifically, and us as a group.
I am so sorry you have had to personally deal with folks that don't seem to walk the talk.
Hey, "leaders" of Bellevue. I hope you're happy that most of the "troublemakers" are gone now! Congratulations. You should be so proud!
STOTL said:
"I'm done with church."
I am genuinely sorry for the pain and bitter disappointment you have
experienced. I know God's heart breaks when He sees one of his "little ones" being used and abused. But, being "done with the church" is not the answer. God has the answer for you in His Word:
Hebrews 12
v.1 ...let us lay aside every weight (burden), and the sin which does so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.
v.2 Looking unto JESUS, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
v.3 FOR CONSIDER HIM WHO ENDURED SUCH CONTRADICTION OF SINNERS AGAINST HIMSELF, LEST YOU BE WEARIED AND FAINT IN YOUR MINDS.
v.4 You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
v.12 Wherefore, lift up the hands which hang down (discouragement) and the feeble knees (defeat);
v.13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame
be turned out of the way; BUT LET IT RATHER BE HEALED.
v. 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
v.15 Looking diligently, lest any man fail of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and by it many be defiled.
-------------
Thank you, Concernedsbcer, for sharing I Cor. 1 & 3 which remind us there have always been divisions and struggles within the church body. Satan is always seeking to destroy that which God has created for His glory. But we have this
precious promise from Christ in
Matt. 16:18:
"And I say unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
SOTL....my heart breaks for you and your family. I am so sorry. As concernedsbcer said, there still are places of worship that don't condone or practice many of the behaviors we've seen here at Bellevue. I only know you through reading this blog, but I truly hope you find others to meet with and worship and grow. I know your trust has been shattered, I am sorry. God is faithful.
Love in Christ, OX
Church has to be a place where each individual member is exercising his/her gift and doing the work, producing the fruits that the HEAD works through each member.
Romans 12:4,5
1 Cor 12:12-27
Ephesians 2:19-22
Church is "communion with His people and the ordinances with His Saints"...Spurgeon
"My Beloved is mine, and I am His: He feedeth among the lilies. Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, turn, my Beloved, and be Thou like a roe or a young hart upon the mountains of Bether." --Song of Solomon 2:16, 17 Surely if there be a happy verse in the Bible it is this--"My Beloved is mine, and I am His." So peaceful, so full of assurance, so overrunning with happiness and contentment is it, that it might well have been written by the same hand which penned the twenty-third Psalm. Yet though the prospect is exceeding fair and lovely--earth cannot show its superior--it is not entirely a sunlit landscape. There is a cloud in the sky which casts a shadow over the scene. Listen, "Until the day break, and the shadows flee away." There is a word, too, about the "mountains of Bether," or, "the mountains of division," and to our love, anything like division is bitterness. Beloved, this may be your present state of mind; you do not doubt your salvation; you know that Christ is yours, but you are not feasting with Him. You understand your vital interest in Him, so that you have no shadow of a doubt of your being His, and of His being yours, but still His left hand is not under your head, nor doth His right hand embrace you. A shade of sadness is cast over your heart, perhaps by affliction, certainly by the temporary absence of your Lord, so even while exclaiming, "I am His," you are forced to take to your knees, and to pray, "Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, turn, my Beloved." "Where is He?" asks the soul. And the answer comes, "He feedeth among the lilies." If we would find Christ, we must get into communion with His people, we must come to the ordinances with His saints. Oh, for an evening glimpse of Him! Oh, to sup with Him to-night!
1) For sinners to be saved? Yes
1 Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
2) For believers to worship God? Yes, but....
Do we do this only on Sunday or Wed? If we do, we may well be worshipping in vain.
Mat 15:9
in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
Aren't we supposed to worship Him all the time?
Romans 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
3) For believers to learn about God? Yes
1 Cor 14:26-32 26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.
4) For believers to fellowship? Yes
1 Cor 12:25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
I think I know somewhat how SOTL feels, and I understand what she's saying. She just wants people who claim to be Christians to act like Christians, and she wants the Christians "in charge" to speak out and take action in the case of those who harm others instead of propping them up and condoning their behavior. You don't think they condone Paul Williams and David Coombs and Andrew Kjellan's behavior? Then why did Steve Gaines state (to more than one person) that he saw no reason why Paul Williams shouldn't still be in the ministry? Why is David Coombs... excuse me... Reverend Coombs... still on staff? Why is Andrew Kjellan (who cussed at and handcuffed a 15-year-old girl at church and was fired from the Memphis Police Department for police brutality last year) still working security at Bellevue AND driving a busload of middleschoolers out of state (or anywhere for that matter)? And these are but three examples of the "love" that Bellevue exhibits for Memphis.
SOTL just wants to see people walk the walk, not just talk the talk. The examples she gave were far from walking the walk. And right now she probably just wants to hit something, not have well-meaning people quote Scripture to her! I don't know that it's so much bitterness as it is disgust -- total disgust at people who claim to be Christians and act all holier-than-thou and would at the same time drive around you if you were lying in the middle of the street bleeding. Yeah, I think I know exactly what she's talking about!
Fortunately, not all Christians are like that, and I've been fortunate to have known a few of those kinds of Christians. I've met a few of them here (and a few of the "other kind" as well). I, too, am through with "doing church" for the time being. There are a number of reasons which I won't go into here. I know there is no perfect church, so I don't think my expectations are too high. But Bellevue and the things I've seen at some other churches in recent years have turned me off to "church" for a very long time. Fortunately, at the same time I feel like I've grown as a Christian because I'm seeing that being a Christian is not contingent upon "doing church." In fact, it seems "the church" has been a hindrance to a lot of Christians being Christians.
SOTL, you come over to my house any time. Or I'll come to you. I promise to never tell you to "just get over it." I've got a big punching bag and a big shoulder for you to lean on. Isn't that an important part of what being a Christian is? Aren't we to be there for our brothers and sisters to lean on? And aren't they to be there for us?
Is there really anything new under the sun? Pharisees, libertines, false prophets, false professors, immorality, etc, have always been problems in the church. The epistles and the seven churches of Revelation make it clear that these are, and always will be problems in the church as long as we are on this earth. The question is how these things are dealt with in the local body. The culprit isn't the entity of the SBC, since as Baptists we don't believe in a hierarchal church government in which the local church is under the authority of denominational headship, rather the local body is its own final authority in matters of church discipline. While in this post-modern age discipline is non-existent in a vast majority of Baptist churches, there are still those who are faithful to the scriptures in worship, teaching, and discipline. We can either focus on all the churches that have gone off the path, or we can seek out one which is faithful. But we will never find one that is perfect or that meets all our personal requirements or "needs". But to drop out of the church altogether is in contradiction to the teaching of scripture and it falls on each of us to seek out a faithful body of like-minded believers and join ourselves to it. The frustration, disappointment, and disillusionment is understandable, but none of will be able to stand before our Lord with an excuse. Those things are part and parcel of life on this earth, as they should be for the child of God. If we did not experience these things, it would mean we are "of" the world rather than "in" the world. Until we are called home and all things are perfected, we must be faithful to our Lord and his word, which includes being a part of his church.
SOTL -
My heart aches for you. So often I find myself expressing exactly what you have expressed this morning. It is not that I expect people, even Christians, to be perfect. However, if we represent the body of Christ, why is there never accountability for the sin that is so routinely committed. Why isn't there more humility? Why don't people come to us after they have so horribly wounded us and say, "I am sorry, I sinned against you." In all of life, I have had 3 people come to me and apologize. The number of people that have either directly wounded me, or stood silently by while others wounded me is closer to 300.
Again, I am so sorry SOTL. I know you don't know me, but please know I am praying that in some way God will give you a special hug today to help you know despite the behavior of His children, He still loves you so very much.
I echo Nass - I am here for you to lean on in whatever way is helpful for you.
Blessings.
BWG
Ok, you want justice, right now.
What about what He says here?
Romans 12:19
beloved,(A) never avenge yourselves, but leave it[a] to the wrath of God, for it is written,(B) "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Or here?
I Will Repay
No one, including me likes to be preached at. Having said that, what do you think the answer is and where do you find it. Do we, as part of the church, as individual members just sit and accept it, offer a shoulder to cry on, offer sympathy and all the things that appeal to the flesh? What do we do with “be angry and do not sin”? (Eph 4:26, Psalms 4:4)
Can we be angry and yet not sin? If we are angry and yet do all the things we are told not to do or do not do the things we are told to do then how do we consider that “being angry and sinning not?
1 Peter 3:12, 3 John 1:11, Eph 4:31.
The answer IS SCRIPTURE. I am sorry that it offends. But here is the way I see it and I am pretty sure that I can support it with scripture. Just because people claiming to be Christians do not act as Christians should, we have no right to then refuse to act as Christians ourselves. Just because “Johnny” wants to jump off a bridge and kill himself doesn’t mean that I have to follow his lead.
You, me, I, We are the church. It is time to decide if we are going to act like the church and love one another, love God and obey His commandments or if we just want to crawl up in a hole and never come out. David tried that and was miserable. Read Psalms.
Jesus was our example and we learn from what He taught his disciples. They were all hated and persecuted by the world yet loved by their brothers. What makes you think we are any different and that we won’t see persecution and suffering.
2 Cor 12: 7So(J) to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations,[a](K) a thorn was given me in the flesh,(L) a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8(M) Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9But he said to me, (N) "My grace is sufficient for you, for(O) my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that(P) the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10(Q) For the sake of Christ, then,(R) I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For(S) when I am weak, then I am strong.
We are not the only ones with a thorn. Stand up, put on the armor and do the work that you were called to do. If that happens to resemble something on Mike Rowe and "Dirty Jobs" then so be it. Just do it to the Glory of God. Throwing a temper tantrum and refusing to go when He says go doesn't glorify Him in the least.
I'm not offended by people quoting Scripture if it's backed up with love and support. This reminds me of a discussion here about the sorry way that Baptist ministers tend to tip when they eat out. I can't link directly to the thread, but go to that site, click on Baptist Faith & Practice Forum and look for the thread entitled Baptists and tipping.
In particular, this whole thing reminds me of the table of preachers that left a $2.00 tip... and a tract.
To SOTL:
Please come visit at my church. You will be uplifted by the service and there are no games of pretend we are Christian.
Lily
They were all hated and persecuted by the world yet loved by their brothers.
EZ...
this doesn't appear to me to apply or help SOTL....it does say LOVED BY THEIR BROTHERS
She doesn't feel persecuted by the world.
Throwing a temper tantrum and refusing to go when He says go doesn't glorify Him in the least.
I don't see SOTL throwing a tantrum.
The blog has been a "safe place" to express ourselves and be supported.
I really don't think that should change among ourselves.
We all cope and heal at a different pace....
Ez, I know you well enough to know you mean well..but that ALMOST sounds like "get over it".
SOTL,
I wish you would be open to just trying a different denomination.
It's no where near as earth shattering and scary as we have been taught all our lives.
I THINK you would be pleasantly surprised!
Ezekiel,
I am not throwing a temper tantrum. I'm not even mad..I've just had enuf, and right now, if I go to church and see more of the same, it is going to further erode my walk.
" Get over it" is not gonna fly, and regardless of the fact that you don't understand, I'm sure that Jesus does.
sorry
SOTL,
It's hard for most people to understand....I knew you weren't mad.
We almost have to rewire our brains about "church"....we can with time.
I'm with you girlfriend!!!!
I am not trying to start a debate/argument or re-hash what has already been discussed. But this has grieved my spirit all day.
I feel that today is a good representation of the difference between those that feel the church is a hospital for the sick/wounded/ill and those who do not feel that way.
Sweet SOTL came to this blog today with a heavy heart. We claim that this blog is a place where we love each other, and we claim we want to be a reflection of Jesus.
SOTL has proven to be a woman of integrity, she has proven to be devoted in her love to Jesus. She has proven to be forgiving over and over again. Today, she is struggling, this does not negate her faith. Yet, instead of lifting her up, instead of showing her how much we love her, and how much we desire for her to experience something else. Instead of wishing her well - she has been told that her actions and feelings are wrong.
Someone asked why don't we be honest with each other - why don't we share each other's burdens?
This is why? If dear sweet SOTL isn't safe from attack, none of us are. There is no safety in that. And wherever we are forced to hide who we really are - that is not a good thing.
Even if (and I am not saying SOTL is wrong - I am simply saying IF she were) - it would not be our place to judge. It would be the Holy Spirit's job to convict. This is one of the key arguments against the seeker sensitive church movement, it eliminates the Holy Spirit. The idea of eliminating the Holy Spirit is wrong in that setting, and it is wrong for Christians to try and take over for the Holy Spirit.
How much more powerful the message would have been, if instead of quoting a bunch of "get your act together" style passages, we would have instead, acted like and demonstrated the love of Jesus. Why are we not standing with our Sister against the sin still being committed?
SOTL, I am sorry that more of us have not stepped up to just be kind today. I will continue to pray that God clearly guides you to where He is at the center. And I pray that you will be cared for and loved by those who claim to be the children of God.
It seems to me our world has enough ugliness, evilness, and condemnation for those who have been severely wounded in life. It really isn't necessary for an extra dose from the "Christians" in the area.
Article in the June 18th Commercial Appeal.
Quote of the year:
"The gates, I think, will be an attraction for some people who are interested in security," said developer Mark Sharpe, with CHBRMA LLC. "Not that it keeps everybody out, but it's an additional layer."
He should know!
BWG,
I mostly agree with you...as indicated by my earlier post.
But there were more supportive posts than not...and as I said, EZ would not intentionally hurt SOTL.
BUT I'm over being told to buck up.
This HAS been our safe place to come for support since our church was hijacked and we discovered so many wolves in our midst.
I can testify that I have received lots of support,grace,correction..chocolate and rotel chicken:)
Nass...what a hoot about the article with Mark Sharp!!!!
I bet he chuckled when he made that statement!!!!
And it's nice to see Bryson McQuiston is apparently finding success after leaving BBC.
Good night Nass....
going to dream about Walton's mountain, violins, and no struggles with petty minds :)
SOTL,
Far from saying "get over it" what I am trying to communicate is found in Psalms 55:22
Take a look at all of Psalms 55, and then jump over to Isaiah 61.
We can't change people. God can. We can't even change ourselves, but God can.
Jesus faced down hypocrites all through His ministry so we know that they are nothing new and most times they were in places of influence therefore able to create maximum damage. Every church has them, some more than others.
All that I am saying is that if we abandon the teachings and the commandments of the WORD, then the more we do that, the more we look like one of them. And they win.
So instead of getting out of bed every morning all anxious about what they do that you can't change, and carrying it around all day like a 50 lb rock, try getting up and laying it at His feet every morning and leaving it up to Him. He will carry it for you, or kick it down the hill. Who knows, He might get tired of looking at it and decide to make gravel out of it.....Either way, you don't have to lug it around anymore.
gmommy,
"They were all hated and persecuted by the world yet loved by their brothers.
EZ...
this doesn't appear to me to apply or help SOTL....it does say LOVED BY THEIR BROTHERS
She doesn't feel persecuted by the world."
If they were truly her brothers, they wouldn't be wanting her to go somewhere else because she constantly reminds them of their hypocracy....Being a brother naturally implies that one would act like one. If they are not a brother then they are the world. No matter where they find themselves Sunday morning.
SOTL, BKWM Girl, GMommy, EZ: I've thought all night about SOTL's situation, and the responses to it. Frankly, I understand exactly what she means. I am very close to feeling the same way. I have always been able to go to scripture and find comfort and I think that's basically what many tried to do for SOTL; remind her of God's Word as an encouragement. As I was thinking about that, it came to me that sometimes we need to see God's Word before we can read it.
Many that know me know that I'm a "pick yourself up by your bootstraps" type of person. I was "The Little Red Hen" in my Kindergarten Graduation play, and if you've never read that story, if you ever do, you will understand me perfectly. SOTL has overcome much in her life, from the time she was a child. She is a strong woman, as many of us on this blog are. However, even strong people need compassion showed to them. I think ultimately, we have a strong sense of right and wrong. These examples sited by SOTL are not debatable; they are wrong. And leadership should have handled it like Godly men. Therein lies the frustration. Paul always seemed to do a good job of admonishing the church when they were allowing sin in; where are the pastors now that will follow in that example?
Our society has been so brainwashed into thinking that there really is no sin; everything has an excuse, or a rationalization. That is contrary to God's Word. Jesus showed love and mercy, but he also called sin a sin. Several times in scripture Jesus forgave and said, "Go and sin no more." The message is clear: "I forgive and love you, but straighten up and do what you know is right." There is nothing wrong with Christians forgiving a sin, and they should. Where I struggle is with those who believe that they can either continue to sin and it's okay, and those that believe once they are forgiven there will be no consequences to face. Both are faulty responses.
Why are pastors allowing sin to corrupt our churches and hurt fellow believers without addressing and dealing with it?
SOTL,
I love you dearly, my precious sister. I miss you (and your wonderful stories) greatly. Hope all is well with you and your fam. Hang in there, dear, stay close to Jesus. All will be well.
"Be not dismayed, whate'er betide, God DOES take care of you."
MJM
I just found an old note from "Junk" that I thought was an interesting idea for this thread:
"I told my wife this week that I would love to see a church that said "We will take care of the financial needs of widows, orphans, and those who have devoted themselves full time to preaching teaching the word and to prayer ... only after that, if anything is left over will we talk about staffs and buildings". Radical idea? Or just Biblical?"
I think it sounds good! What do you think?
I Refuse To Be Discouraged
I Refuse To Be Discouraged
I refuse to be discouraged,
To be sad, or to cry;
I refuse to be downhearted,
and here's the reason why...
I have a God who's mighty,
Who's sovereign and supreme;
I have a God who loves me,
and I am on His team.
He is all wise and powerful,
Jesus is His name;
Though everything is changeable,
My God remains the same.
My God knows all that's happening;
Beginning to the end,
His presence is my comfort,
He is my dearest friend.
When sickness comes to weaken me,
To bring my head down low,
I call upon my mighty God;
Into His arms I go.
When circumstances threaten
to rob me from my peace;
He draws me close unto His breast,
Where all my strivings cease.
And when my heart melts within me,
and weakness takes control;
He gathers me into His arms,
He soothes my heart and soul.
The great "I AM" is with me,
My life is in His hand,
The "Son of the Lord" is my hope,
It's in His strength I stand.
I refuse to be defeated,
My eyes are on my God;
He has promised to be with me,
as through this life I trod.
I'm looking past all my circumstances,
To Heaven's throne above;
My prayers have reached the heart of God,
I'm resting in His love.
I give God thanks in everything,
My eyes are on His face;
The battle's His, the victory is mine;
He'll help me win the race.
Author Unknown
Why are pastors allowing sin to corrupt our churches and hurt fellow believers without addressing and dealing with it?
6:23 AM, June 20, 2008
Why do we assume these places are the 'ecclesia' just because they call themselves a church?
Lin: Because they should be.
Well, you know what they say about "assuming."
Not meaning to changed the subject, and I may have missed it, but is anybody invited to the Gaines/Wingo wedding Saturday evening?
Just wonderin'......
To answer the question "What is Church?", I don't know. The church that I have known has been a bunch of posers who don't back the talk up with the walk.
And memo to those who stand up and raise their hands and stare at the ceiling when a "worship" song is on....SIT YOUR TAILS DOWN AND SHUT UP! You ain't fooling nobody. Last time I checked, it is not a contest to see who can worship the most. And yes, thats what it is...a ploy to make you look like your "worshiping" when instead all your doing is looking like a fool. Especially when one person stands up and a bunch of others stand up right after...like a bunch of lemmings going over a cliff.
Now will someone please get me some duct tape...my head's about to explode.
"... is anybody invited to the Gaines/Wingo wedding Saturday evening?"
From the May/June Bellevue Messenger...
Steve Gaines: "Donna and I love you. Our oldest daughter, Lindsey, and Ryan Wingo are getting married on Saturday, June 21, at Bellevue and we’d love for the church family to join us. We thank the Lord that we are here to share this precious experience with you."
So I guess everyone's invited.
Lynn said:
"And memo to those who stand up and raise their hands and stare at the ceiling when a "worship" song is on....SIT YOUR TAILS DOWN AND SHUT UP! You ain't fooling nobody. Last time I checked, it is not a contest to see who can worship the most. And yes, thats what it is...a ploy to make you look like your "worshiping" when instead all your doing is looking like a fool. Especially when one person stands up and a bunch of others stand up right after...like a bunch of lemmings going over a cliff."
BWG says:
WOW. Hope that was said with more love and grace than it reads. Just because people have hands held high, even if they stand, and say it isn't so, but even when they stare at the ceiling, they might possibly be worshiping still.
SOTL: Thinking of you tonight. I understand. You don't owe anyone any apology - no "sorry" needed. I'll continue to hold you in my thoughts. May you find your own walk, your own place, your own peace, in your own time.
NASS: If I were in Memphis, I might drop by to use your punching bag occasionally myself! Just for upper body strength, of course.
Oh, of course! Any time. :-)
Everyone,
Thanks for all your kind words..and i know that EZ wasn't trying to be mean to me...
Ya'll have all been very kind and very supportive...I didn't mean to imply that anyone hadn't.
I am just SOOO tired...There's nothing left inside that would allow me to get up and walk into church right now. Maybe it won't always be that way. I'm just numb.
I don't need to take another very personal hit by " church people".
It's not that i have stood on the sidelines and watched people act stupid. People have acted stupid, and unkind right to my face. It has been VERY personal, very unncessary, and extremely un-called-for.
I miss what going to church felt like when Dr. R. was my pastor. Obviously, there was evil going on just underneath the surface, but it was not personal to me. There was no public debate about whether or not children should be protected from predators. Church people were not taking sides as to whether or not children should be protected. Church people had never verbalized to me that "only" being molested ONE TIME was ok, all in an effort to protect a man who had sinned horribly against the church.
I brushed myself off and DID try it again, only to be ostricized by a " leader" of the new church, because my sister had once been married ( 28 years ago) to her now-husband of 25 years, and they had been very busy over those 25 years playing like they had never been married before. It was made VERY clear to me that I was unwelcome there.
Even after my husband and I brought it to the pastor's attention, she still serves in her leadership role. She has never apologized to me, so it appears that she got by with it.
The ONLY thing that DID come out of it was that I was told " to just not talk about it"...
IS anyone recognizing this as "the Baptist way"?
And some would think that I should try this again? What? Am I CRAZY?
No thanks!
I know. I said I wasn't going to comment on this thread anymore. But something has now come up and I will not be quiet about it. When any of my dear friends and siblings in Christ make statements about their experiences in which they have had concerning some 'religious people', and those statements are basically dismissed because they may not sound loving and graceful,
then that dismissal itself I see as just plain unloving and ungraceful.
Love you SOTL.
Further, I tend to agree with my brother who speaks of the show and agree that the show isn't necessary nor helpful, and is but a distraction to worship for many others. For those who must jump and shout, realize that others there may need to worship more "quietly". Why don't you do your hopping and hollering and dancing in the back pews. Why must you do it up front? And sometimes Matthew 23 just screams in agony. Let's look at that chapter and see how graceful and loving that seems. Notice I said "seems".
Now I'm not going argue this with anybody, it is what is is, and I'm done with it.
Good night.
oc.
They don't have TV cameras in the back.
That shplains it Lucy.
Dance Fever with John Travolta is on channel 37, SOTL...lets dance!!!!!
Thanks SOTL, for knowing that! I just keep pointing folks to the WORD. Churches today are places that if we do visit, we need to be well grounded in the Word, and put on all the armor that it contains before venturing in.
The promises contained in the WORD just have to be true and that is our only hope. Keep your eyes on Christ and don't give up or turn back! I am praying for you!
Concerned,
Concerned,
Was Simon saved?
Acts 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed. 14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit. 20 But Peter said to him, May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.
gmommy of the "RRR" said...
Dance Fever with John Travolta is on channel 37, SOTL...lets dance!!!!!
12:00 AM, June 21, 2008
::in his best BeeGees voice::
Ah Ah Ah Ah Stayin Alive Stayin Alive...Ah Ah Ah Ah Stayin Alive Stayin Alive
:D
Lynn,
I was singing with you!!!!!
gmommy said:
Dance Fever with John Travolta is on channel 37, SOTL...lets dance!!!!!
***
whew hooo....there WAS a time :)
that i would put on my dancin clothes and would dance to that music!!! I was graduating from college in Feb. of 78,( we were on the quarter system) about the time that music by the bee gees came out..
NOw, at my age, it wouldn't be pretty. NOT pretty at all!! :)
I just have to say for the record, I sit in the back row of my church, in the far right corner. No one is behind me except the wall. I am one of "those" people who often can be seen with hands raised in worship, often with tears streaming down my face, because I am so in awe that our Savior allows us to sing our praise to him, and when we praise him, he draws near to us. I do not do it for show, nor do I think I am a distraction.
Do I think some people seem to think it is a show thing - yes, and I understand the disdain towards that.
But not everyone with hands held high are doing it for show. And I think it is kind of wrong to assume that just because someone has their hands held high they are doing it out of pride-fullness or desire to have the focus on them. For me personally (and I know that this is not the case for everyone) to worship in that manner was a very freeing thing, and it has drawn me closer to God. I am Italian, I talk with my hands, to worship without the use of my hands was to "act" a part that was not me.
Sorry for the rabbit trail - we will now resume regular programming.
Bkwm Girl: I do not have a problem with hands up, swaying, per se. My problem comes when people do that in the front of the church, especially when the church members do not normally worship in that manner. I also resent being told when I do not raise my hands, etc. that I am NOT worshipping. For you to sit near the back, being private between you and God....I have no problem with that. That could be the difference between worshipping and drawing attention to yourself, IMHO.
"How do the SBC and Cooperative Program line up with Scripture regarding a church's responsibilities?"
Are independent, individual churches forfeiting their responsibilities for supporting missionaries, taking care of widows and orphans, etc. but allowing or expecting the Cooperative program to do that for them? Are churches complacent in meeting needs within their church?
Wait a minute CSBCer,
Are you saying that an individual can be perceived/judged NOT to be corporately or personally worshiping if they are not displaying a physical, visible show of emotion or movement in the church service???????????????????
If that is the case...(and who the heck would have the arrogance to come to you??)
then NOW we have people on such a spiritual level with God himself that they decide WHAT is worship???
Is there only one way to worship??
Wonder why God made us all so different if HE intended for there to be ONE WAY to express corporate worship....
maybe He doesn't intend for their to be a personal,intimate ,private worship??
Maybe we are supposed to form a committee that decides for us...the entire church ...what behavior is acceptable to be considered worship????
Shoot...maybe the SBC can add that to their message of faith thing!!!
There really was a time when reverence was considered in the Baptist church.
I think it was way back there when modesty was expected at least in church...at least from so called Christians.
Maybe even when we studied our Bibles and didn't let self annointed preachers tell us what we believed.
GMommy: Unfortunately, I was in a church 10 years ago where those of us who worshipped in a quiet reverent way were told we were "cold" and "not holy" because we did not clap, sway, raise hands, etc. My thought is that there are many ways to worship and no one church can utilize all ways. Therefore, find a church that worships the way you feel comfortable worshipping and go there. I would appreciate it if a few traditional, quiet-worshipping churches were left in tact for those of us who can't concentrate with all the movement. I do not have a problem with those who prefer to worship with more physical energy; I just ask respect for those of us (with ADHD perhaps?) that must have a quieter, focused worship style.
Hellooooooo out there!!!
gmommy: I think what they were referring to was during a service at Bellevue, Dr. Gaines made a statement something like, "come on, if you would , just raise your hands up in the air..." during a song of some sort.
Hey Folks. It has been a long time since my last posting and I am glad to see that others are becoming a little disgusted with organized church also. The churches are all run by people and usually a small group of people. They could care less about the concerns of the church members. Just keep bringing the cash and all is well.
I for one believe that you can practice your faith in a way that honors God and never set foot in a church building.
Oh by the way, we enjoyed the years with Dr. Rogers as much as anyone, but the day to day operations of the church was a closed issue not open to any discussion what so ever.
Hello all! I have been lurking here and there for a while. Been REAL busy and all, but I just could not pass up this discussion about the "lively" worship services vs those "other" types. Of course there are those who like the quiet, sit down, stand up, shake hands and go home type. Then there are those who like to sway and wave-shaking their hips in their tight skirts (we have been behind them so don't tell me they don't exist!), then there are those who clap and cry and have those types of "out of body" type experiences (some of whom may roll around in the floor or cry out, but most in the Baptist churches I have seen just make a big deal out of being on the front row(s)on TV.
Out of all of them I have missed seeing those who acknowledge the presence of a Holy God, those who recognize His Spirit in their presence, bringing them to their knees in Holy reverence to the Great I AM. THAT is what I miss in all this New Age Worship. I have no problems at home during my devotions, but when I am in a place that is surrounded by the chaos of the noise and rock music that is supposed to be bringing us to the feet of Jesus, It just ain't there.....
For those interested, here is a review of the Wedding made by a member of GFBC on their blog:
Sunday, June 22, 2008
Walkin' in Memphis.....
That's where I've been this weekend. We (me, my mom and stepdad, aunt, uncle, other uncle, cousin, and about 150 other G'dale people) went to Lindsey and Ryan's wedding at Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis. BEAUTIFUL wedding. The song that's playing now - "Captivate Us" - beautiful song - the bride's siblings (Grant, Ali, and Bethany) sang this before the wedding. I started crying during that song, and didn't stop until about an hour AFTER the wedding. Well, I'm kinda still crying. I miss the Gaines family soooo much. The bride's dad, Steve, used to be our pastor at GFBC. He left us for Bellevue a few years ago. Like I said, I miss them terribly.
Lindsey was beautiful.
Ryan never stopped smiling.
Donna was beautiful. Like a perfect Disney princess.
Steve was fantastic. I was kinda star-struck around him for some reason.
Grant was gorgeous. Gorgeous.
Melissa was VERY pregnant and cute cute cute.
Bethany was all grown up, and sang like an angel.
Allison was prettier than ever.
Miss Dorothy WALKED half-way down the aisle. I cried.
Steve Hancock played - he was flawless.
Tracy Maxwell was also VERY pregnant. And precious.
Bill Street was so cheerful and sweet, just like always.
Jamie was a doll, and has the BEST tenor voice ever.
Dana and the kids were a sight for sore eyes.
Mark and Marti Blair were too sweet.
Russ Q. was precious, and his prayer was perfect.
I saw Jeff Phillips and his family - cute.
Saw cute little Jenny and B.J. - they look exactly the same.
Saw Kathy Jett's dad. I miss the Jetts.
Saw Jamie Parker's cute little dad.
I miss them all. I am actually crying now as I type this. I remember when Steve first announced that he was leaving GFBC. I grieved for a LONG time. Cried for a LONG time. This weekend brought all of that back. For some reason, when I sang there last October, I didn't have all these feelings. Probably because I was so nervous and excited about singing. But this time, I just sat back and watched them, and remembered when they were all here. Very sad. I grieved Saturday night, all over again.
This weekend reminded me of a part of my life that is kinda over. Well, not really OVER. Dormant, maybe. I was reminded of when I was so involved at GFBC, involved in the music department, on stage all the time, able to use my gift... I miss it. And I'm really sad. Not that I can go back now, with things the way they are. I don't know if it will ever be the same. I just miss the way things were. I was so happy then.
Wow... scary.
And I thought you were making that up!
"And I thought you were making that up!"
Knowing how things "Disappear" , I only posted the meat of the message and not the ----
So why did we post that????
and why is the kid's singing life over since SG left Gardendale??
Good to know what's really important ...being star struck and all.
shelooks like a little girl
Okay...I've got a question for all my good friends....
I LOVE my SS class. Love them all. (Get sick of the Lifeway "stuff" that's so surface and stupid)
Not so much with the church.
So is going to SS and doing study and worship on my own enough? Pleasing to God? A good witness?
I'm truly struggling with this. Help would be appreciated. :)
I'm not even gonna comment on that for 2 reasons:
1. My head hurts too much to think about it.
2. If I did comment, it would turn into a George Carlinesque
concernedSBCer said...
Okay...I've got a question for all my good friends....
I LOVE my SS class. Love them all. (Get sick of the Lifeway "stuff" that's so surface and stupid)
Not so much with the church.
So is going to SS and doing study and worship on my own enough? Pleasing to God? A good witness?
I'm truly struggling with this. Help would be appreciated. :)
5:40 PM, June 24, 2008
Thats what I normally have done :).
Lynn,
Use the duck tape before you choose #2!!!!
From the sermon at my church this past Sunday.
David's legacy - the worship of God. I Chronicles 16
The church of God has great reason to worship God (WHY?)
1. God is great (v. 25)
2. Gpd is glorious (v. 27)
3. God is holy (v. 29b, 35)
4. God is good (v. 34)
5. God is eternal (v. 26)
Our worship is a respon to God's works (v. 8, 12)
WORSHIP IS TO BE GOD-CENTERED, NOT MAN CENTERED.
1. God has created (v. 26b)
2. Gpd is redeeming (v. 23B)
3. God will judge (v.33b)
Worship includes a variety of ingredients (HOW?)
1. Worship involves giving thanks (v. 8, 34)
2. Worship involves a declaration of praise (v. 9)
3. Worship involves an admiration of God's character (v. 29a, 10)
4. Worship involves the showing of reverence (v. 25b, 30a)
5. Worship involves an expression of confession (v. 29b)
6. Worship involves a presentation of offerings (v. 29a)
7. Worship involves an expression of dependence (v. 11, 35)
8. Worship involves a preparation for missions (v. 31b)
Worship is designed to be experienced by God's entire creation (BY WHOM?)
1. The covenant community is to gather for worship (v. 13-22)
2. The nations are called to worship (v. 28)
3. The heavens are to contribute to worship (v. 31)
4. All created things are designed for God's worship (v. 32-33a)
DON'T WORSHIP OUR WORK, WORK AT OUR PLAY OR PLAY AT OUR WORSHIP.
Lily: That is the best synopsis I have seen.
Charles Page sent me an e-mail this afternoon. I don't know why. It was in my SPAM folder. My computer is pretty smart!
Lilly, Thanks for posting those sermon notes. I will print them out and study... So, where do you go to church? E-mail me, will you? :o)
lizzie,
I wouldn't worry about it. He's been banned from just about every blog he's posted to, so I guess he's resorted to spamming people. Do as I have and put him on your filter list to automatically delete his e-mails so you never have to see them.
Have you noticed that CSBCer is very good about her bed time?????
I need to take lessons!
GMommy: Working two jobs will do that for you! Plus, I'm an early riser, so by 10:00, I'm toast!!!
Ahh...I remember those Sunday services at the lil' church on Loney Mountain.
The powder blue leisure suits and white pleather shoes with gold buckles...
The snake handlers, the jars of poison, the funerals later that day...
The strange men and women laying hands on my vestigial tail...
Being gored by the neighborhood goats at the dinner on the ground...
Mama Loney's 'meat surprise' casserole giving the whole congregation botulism...
My brother, Phel Loney, winning the plate offering from the preacher by way of 3-card Monty...
The kissin' cousin weddings coinciding with our family reunion...
As Mama Loney used to say: "Refrigerating fresh meat is for sissies"
Gold, mama Loney, pure gold.
William T. Loney, MD
"concernedSBCer said...
I LOVE my SS class. Love them all. (Get sick of the Lifeway "stuff" that's so surface and stupid)"
If you are referring to BBC , Lifeway may be on the way out, starting in the children's department.
"If you are referring to BBC... "
She wasn't.
Welcome back, Dr. Bill! Long time, no see!
Now today just got better!!!
Missed you Dr Looney!!!!
"I LOVE my SS class. Love them all. (Get sick of the Lifeway "stuff" that's so surface and stupid)
Not so much with the church. "
This is so bizarre. You are about the 12th person I have heard this same sentiment from in the last few months.
It is almost as if SS, in several cases, IS the Body.
Lin: SS is like the body but somehow SS doesn't seem like worship.
Lin said...
"I LOVE my SS class. Love them all. (Get sick of the Lifeway "stuff" that's so surface and stupid)
Not so much with the church. "
This is so bizarre. You are about the 12th person I have heard this same sentiment from in the last few months.
It is almost as if SS, in several cases, IS the Body.
4:43 PM, June 25, 2008
I think part of it is that because the groups are smaller, we are able to connect better with others in Sunday School as opposed to the general services where most of it is "Hi How are you" yada yada yada.
Concerned wants to know if it is okay to go to SS and to do personal worship at home. You know exactly how I feel about this. You are blessed in the fact that you can find a SS class you click with. S and I have never found that for ourselves even at BBC. He likes his class at our current church but I'm so disgusted with what goes on there, I don't even want to go anymore. I read the scriptures and think about them a lot - esp the ones about not forsaking the assembling of ourselves but I still have to force myself out of bed on Sunday am. I understand completely where SOTL and NASS are coming from even though I haven't been through the exact circumstances they have. I can see why SOTL would never want to go back. It is very disheartening for many of us who have left BBC and tried so hard to move on then to be disappointed again by the "leadership" or some of the people.
As far as all the trance like states and hands up in the air, someone in leadership keeps trying to foist this off on our current church (sorry BWG - nothing personal to those who discreetly worship in this manner) but so far they aren't participating. I know exactly what NASS is talking about - Steve has been turning BBC into Assembly of God ever since he entered the building. I have AOG friends and love them dearly but this is supposed to be a Baptist Church and a Baptist denomination. I have railed about this earlier in this thread. I spoke with a Methodist minister a few evenings ago who is concerned about the charismatic movement going through his denomination. It seems we can't get away from it. If any of you have checked out God TV on Directv or online, you may be getting very freaked out. Currently there is a Todd Bentley "revival" going on which is causing quite a stir even among the charismatics. Many of them think it is disgusting. Makes you wonder!!!! A great book on the charismatic movement is The Other Side of the River at Lighthouse Trails Publishing. Very interesting book - I could hardly put it down.
Diana
"I understand completely where SOTL and NASS are coming from even though I haven't been through the exact circumstances they have."
And just to clarify, I haven't been through the same circumstances as SOTL. She has been much more gracious than I think I would have been!
BowtheKnee: You bring up an interesting point that the charismatic movement is sweeping through every denomination.
I'm wondering.....why?
What would cause people to think this constitutes reverence to a Holy God? What is missing that they think it's "the thing to do"?
(Another good book is Charismatic Chaos; can't remember the author off the top of my head. It was the first book, I think, that questioned the trend.)
Concernedsbcer:
Just one answer to just one of your many great questions...
The Great Commission (Matthew 28) was stated by Jesus before the Pentecost (Acts 2). Therefore, in context, I see the Great Commission as an indivividual endeavor, not a corporate one. In context, it is not a corporate directive, but an individual one. Therefore the SBC Cooperative Program becomes mute, no matter how wonderful it sounds in our ears. The Great Commission says to give the Gospel and disciple those who will accept the Lord, as we have opportunity, and as we go. AS WE GO. There is no directive to go to Africa, etc. unless we actually find ourselves there. Our next door neighbor is our mission quest. It all started in Jerusalem. That's the neighborhood. Just my opinion.
The fact of the matter is, "Jerusalem" hasn't been "Gospelized" yet. How arrogant that we extend it out to Samaria, and the outer utmost of the world yet, when our next door neighbor hasn't yet heard the Gospel. I think sometimes we want a "program" to make us feel good.
Just rambling again.
oc.
And furthermore, let us be taught by the Scriptures and by the One Who teaches still. I have been taught by men, and I have been taught by Him. And I know the difference.
For one small instance, what about "tithing", is that "biblical"? No, it's not. It's what has been force fed to me over many years, and now your pastor probably preaches it too. He does not do it to harm you, but does so in ignorance; which is quite ironic, considering that a scholarly approach to the topic requires a quite different
answer than what is given to the "masses".
Anyway, the Lord teaches you in your time, and in your way. He does not require you to learn the "old languages" or to adopt any old "systematic theology".
He is personal. He gets right into your life. He gets right down and calls 'sin' sin. And He also lets you know that some things are not 'sin', but just barriers put up by men. And He will give you insights that no man can. And often you cannot explain what He has told you. If you tried, you would be called an "idiot". That's why it is so important that we continually look toward the Author and go by His Book.
Just walking with Him, best I can, no matter how stupid I look.
oc.
oc said....
For one small instance, what about "tithing", is that "biblical"? No, it's not. It's what has been force fed to me over many years, and now your pastor probably preaches it too. He does not do it to harm you, but does so in ignorance; which is quite ironic, considering that a scholarly approach to the topic requires a quite different
answer than what is given to the "masses".
Upon further review, I have to agree with you on this. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or misinterpreting things here, but isn't Tithing an Old Testament ritual, and that Jesus's death and resurrection freed us from those old testament rituals since he paid our debts in full?
Yes my brother Lynn, He set us free from rituals. We are to give as our heart tells us, 2 Corinthians 9:7.
"Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver."
In my estimation, that "cheerfulness" is beyond all measure. He loves me, He saved me.
That goes way beyond any "tithe" as I see it. I will give to Him in any way I can, above and beyond the '10 percent' thing, but I will also do it very wisely. If I don't see that the orphans and widows getting help, I will not contribute. I will no longer donate to the Pharisees. I will give as He says, not as anyone else expects.
In His Love.
oc.
A faithful Baptist Preacher powerfully exhorts the flock of the dangers of Tolerance and Post modern falsehoods.
OLD FASHIONED TRUTH UNVARNISHED AND UNCOMPROMISED
We are looking for a new music minister and I overheard a conversation that went like this....
"I hope we can find a music minister that knows what a HYMNAL is."
How sad.
I get such comfort from the old humns and we have an entire generation that is missing out on learning them.
I went to a "liberal" church with an old friend Sunday.
We used hymnals!
There was some substance there no longer available at our "consevative" 7/11 churches.
Sadly, its not just regular church services where hymns are being replaced.
I just read a story where hymns normally played a funerals are being replaced with rock songs such as "Stairway to Heaven" by Led Zepplin, "Another One Bites the Dust" by Queen, "Always look on the bright side of live" from Monty Python's Life of Brian, and "Highway to Hell" from AC/DC.
Heres the link to the story:
Rock Music replaces hymns at Funerals
Happy 4th of July, blog friends!!!
make sure those hamburgers you are grilling aren't from the recalled batch at Krogers!!!! :)
Happy Independence Day, to Gmommy and all.
Today I think of independence from sin, and dependence on Him.
I always wanted to be so, but I'm not independent.
I depend on Christ. I depend on my brothers and sisters in Christ also.
God bless ya'll my sweet friends!
I cherish you.
Thanks for another year of loving me, the unlovable. You've done a great job!
oc.
Romans 6:22...
"But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life."
Galatians 5:1...
"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."
And that is our Independence Day. Everyday. We are free! Thank God, we are free!
oc.
Powerful testimonies -- who needs PowerPoint?
Junk,
Thanks for sharing that. That really rocks! And as for me, there is not enough cardboard in the world...
You know what I'm sayin'.
I've been so blessed, and blessed to call you my friend.
Love you bro.
oc.
Talking about church...
I love the old hymns. I love "The Old Rugged Cross". I love "Amazing Grace". My favorite is "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus'. And looking
"full in His wonderful face" makes me just break down and cry, and I'm not kidding. It happens every time. I get so embarrassed to be seen crying, and I really don't know why.
But sometimes even Christian rock makes sense to me...
Like this refrain from Audio Adrenalin over a decade ago...
"It's not who you are, it's Who you know.
It's not where you've been, it where you go.
It's not how you look, it's how you see.
It's not what you want, it's what you need."
Man, it is so simple, but says so much. And maybe that is why it speaks to me.
Just sayin', cause I don't know what I'm sayin'. LOL! :)
Happy Independence Day! Hope ya'll had a great one!
oc.
Happy Independence Day Folks....
I know the World Overcomers Church was a bit nuts....but since when did Carnies become part of the church experience? I was driving over to one of my bowling teammates house for a cookout at his house when I passed by the World Overcomers Church there at Kirby and Winchester. What do I see in their parking lot? Not one but two FERRIS WHEELS and a bunch of other activities you would normally see at a fair. Call me crazy here, but I don't get why they, Bellevue, and other churches have to resort to using carnies to get the message across? I know we have a void since King Willie pretty much ran the fair out of town, but thats not something the church has to do.
Gmommy,
I am now attending a "liberal" church on Wednesday nights for prayer meetings. It is a really sweet time with the remnant of their flock. We pray for a long list of people every week. I have had some good talks with their pastor. He is not a liberal and really has a good head on his shoulders. He's the one who was telling me about the charismatic movment going thru their denomination.
Concerned, I think the Charismatic Chaos book was by Hank Haanegraaf (I know that is spelled wrong!)Do you have that book? I want to read it but don't want to buy it since Hank has had some financial issues......
Diana
It hurts, but I'm starting to think....
Maybe there's a reason why people go "liberal"...
What? Huh? Please give me some reasons why I shouldn't. And do it quickly. Very quickly.
oc.
I think we are discovering "liberal" doesn't mean what it used to ...and not at all what the SBC leaders are calling liberal today.
I had the great pleasure of having a 2 hour phone conversation with my 88 year old 9th grade English teacher last week.
I told her how odd it was that the people who most influenced my life were "liberals" but yet I have followed the "conservative Christian" formula during all my child rearing years and beyond.
I loved her definition of liberal...Free Thinker
the opposite of a free thinker, I think, would be to just accept all the "authority figures" say without questioning and checking...
have you read some of the "smelly rubbish" coming down from the conservatives lately???
It is down right scary...
not that far from the thinking of the group in Texas that had their kids taken away and then returned ... (Nass...help me with the name please)
or the people who are so afraid of the influence and intelligence of a woman that they make them cover all but their eyes when in public.
Will the rights to an education, to vote, or own property be taken from "Conservative Christian" women in the name of Scriptural integrity?????
I can't help but remember that the KKK claimed the Bible supported the beating, hanging, and owning of human beings with a darker color skin.
I have never given a thought to "feminism" before the hijacking of BBC caused me to read and study and question everything I thought I believed.
I never looked at what the SBC stood for.... yet was faithful with my tithe ...that was partially used to further the agendas that encourage the sacrifice and abuse of women.
Yesterday I found a "conservative site" holding sisters responsible for emasculating their brothers and keeping them from becoming men!!!!
IF the SBC survives....I hope they get some "free thinkers" in leadership....who respect and live the example that Jesus lived concerning women and children.
Whatever progress has been made over the years is being slowly destroyed by the greedy, power hungry, emasculated good ol boys.
Just call me a liberal if they are the example of conservative.
gmommy,
I was visiting a Sunday school class a couple weeks ago and they was talking about some book called "King Me". Its a book that emphasizes the importance of the father for their sons to become godly men.
HOWEVER, the guy leading the class, in the way he was discussing this book was making it sound like a boy who is raised by his mother won't be a godly man, but instead would be, as the Governator would put it...a girly man. That didn't sound right to me. Some of the manliest of men I've known were mommas boys myself included lol.
The book "Charismatic Chaos" was written by John McArthur.
Watchman...
Could you give me the link for the sermon you posted? Sounds a bit like John Piper???
Ima
Okay....I have solved the mystery after searching through my books!
Yes, John McArthur wrote "Chasismatic Chaos" and it is excellent. I have the tape which I think is better than the book because he actually has audio from churches. I could be dramatic and say you could feel the evil/chaos when you listen to it, but I won't. :)
Hank Hanegraaff published "Counterfeit Revival" four years after "Chasismatic Chaos" and it is excellent as well, even though HH has now gone into some new areas, I think this book was very good in its subject matter.
Lynn, I was raised by my Momma.
Dad only showed up in a drunken stupor to beat us.
And maybe I didn't turn out as godly as I should be, that's on me, but I'm certainly nobody's sissy. Momma raised us well.
oc
You'll have to excuse me for not getting overly excited about John MacArthur. Last year someone plagiarized this from MacArthur's site to justify why no woman could be in a group that asked for a meeting with Steve Gaines to express their concerns. The argument was that this would be "exercising influence on the leadership and direction of Bellevue, a function reserved by God for men."
And people ask me why I never called up the church and scheduled an appointment to meet with the pastor? LOL! Apparently just being a member of the church doesn't qualify me. Of course, he wouldn't ever meet with the men either as they could never get past David Coombs, but at least they had the right to ask. I do not because, according to MacArthur (and apparently some of my fellow church members), I am a second-class citizen and it would be "unbiblical" for me to do so.
According to MacArthur's definition, Lottie Moon and Corrie ten Boom were second-class citizens, too.
I read that article and that's not what I got from it.
McArthur said: "We don't believe there's a place for women elders in the church."
That does not mean that women can't speak or serve in other areas and ways.
He also says women are NOT second class citizens here: "Paul goes on to say in 1 Timothy 2:15 that "women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint." That verse is not talking about women's eternal destiny, but means that they are saved from being second-class citizens through the privilege of rearing children. God designed a woman to fulfill a role in the home that no man ever can (Proverbs 31:10-31; Titus 2:4-5)."
Then he concludes by saying: "So in the same way sin tries to dominate us all, fallen women desire to overpower their husbands, and fallen men tend to oppress them in the same way sin oppresses the sinner. The intended balance, of course, is achieved when men and women lead and submit in a godly manner (Ephesians 5:22-33)."
Bottom line is that if men treat women as God ordained him to, there are not problems. I have no problem submitting to a man, OR ANYONE, when I know they are aligned with scripture and love me as Christ loved His church. The problem is that some men leave out their part of the equation and lord over women.
There are many examples of God's use of women to do His work, both in the Bible and out. He used a harlot to protect the spies, a prostitute was one of Jesus' most dedicated followers, a girl from nowhere bore God's Son, Corrie Ten Boom, Lottie Moon, Elizabeth Elliot, Amy Carmichael....I could go on. All women, all used of God in great ways.
I didn't read in this excerpt that women should be "seen and not heard"...instead, I read that everyone has a place of service.
I know a man who was in a group that helped start a church. This man wanted to be a deacon SO MUCH it was unreal. (He was, once. Until he got divorced.) He hated the verse in Timothy that said "husband of one wife" because "it kept him from serving." It didn't keep him from serving. It kept him from being a deacon. There is a difference. There are always places to serve.
oc said...
Lynn, I was raised by my Momma.
Dad only showed up in a drunken stupor to beat us.
And maybe I didn't turn out as godly as I should be, that's on me, but I'm certainly nobody's sissy. Momma raised us well.
oc
9:07 AM, July 06, 2008
Amen OC.
He also says women are NOT second class citizens here: "Paul goes on to say in 1 Timothy 2:15 that "women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint." That verse is not talking about women's eternal destiny, but means that they are saved from being second-class citizens through the privilege of rearing children. God designed a woman to fulfill a role in the home that no man ever can (Proverbs 31:10-31; Titus 2:4-5)."
He doesn't say all women aren't second-class citizens. If women are "saved from being second-class citizens through the privilege of rearing children," then logically it follows that those women who have not "reared children" are considered by MacArthur, among others, to be second-class citizens. That's a slap in the face to every woman who has never had children whether by circumstance or choice.
Also, the Bible does not say all women are to submit to all men. It says wives are to submit themselves to their husbands. It also has some specific requirements for said husbands that are often glossed over or ignored. We are all to submit to the proper authority figures, male or female.
Nass: I really think you are making a jump on the second class statement. God is in control of families as well. Also, I read that McArthur was saying women SHOULD NOT BE second class citizens because of their value in the home.
You are right....wives are to submit to husbands....I meant that but wasn't clear. And you are right, we are all to submit to the proper authority figures, male or female.
If you read that passage literally, it precludes single men from being deacons, too. It says the "husband of one wife," not the husband of no wife. If I'm not mistaken, Baptist churches still ordain single men.
Actually, it doesn't say a divorced man can't be a deacon or pastor either. Only if he remarried would this apply. Charles Stanley is a good example. Do you realize that Charles Stanley could not even enroll at most, if not all, our Southern Baptist seminaries? You may or may not agree with the appropriateness of that, but it's a fact.
From the MABTS admissions policy:
The Seminary does not admit as a student anyone who has ever been divorced or whose spouse has ever been divorced. This applies without exception both to those who are “innocent parties” of divorce and to others.
I'm not expressing a personal opinion about all this, just that this is what the literal interpretation of that passage would be.
"I read that McArthur was saying women SHOULD NOT BE second class citizens because of their value in the home."
Yes, I think that's exactly what he's saying, and I think he's reducing women to having little worth otherwise. What if a woman doesn't marry or have children or immediate family... or a home? What is her "value" then?
'He also says women are NOT second class citizens here: "Paul goes on to say in 1 Timothy 2:15 that "women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint." That verse is not talking about women's eternal destiny, but means that they are saved from being second-class citizens through the privilege of rearing children. God designed a woman to fulfill a role in the home that no man ever can (Proverbs 31:10-31; Titus 2:4-5)."
First of all 'roles' are not in scripture because 'roles' are acting. We are to Abide in Christ. Not play a role to please God. We are to BE. This thinking is insulting. Role has a French root and means the 'rolled up scroll used for the actors part'. And now we have preachers telling us to play a role. Ridiculous!
Secondly, this horrible translation of 1 Timothy means that childbearing or staying in your 'role' is a WORK of salvation or sanctification. A WORK. How else can it be viewed? Can you imagine how cruel this teaching is to deeply spiritual woman who cannot have children?
You may want to double check...it most certainly is being taught as part of sanctification and Bruce Ware says that 'saved' means SAVED in this verse.
If you study the Greek, which I wish more would, you would see that an entire 'religion' for women has been founded on ONE GREEK WORD: Authenteo. One word in 1 Timothy 2:12.
That word is NO WHERE else used in scripture. The meaning of it is obscure as it is not a common word in Greek. The FEW instances it has been found in Greek letters or literature the reference has been to lord it over such as a cruel master to a slave. To force someone to do something, assassin or murderer.
If the Holy Spirit wanted to communicate simple 'authority', there are quite a few Greek words that have been used for that all over the NT such as Archon, Exousia, etc. But He did not inspire those common words. So He was NOT communicating everyday authority over someone.
He inspired an obscure word. Since Timothy would have known exactly who Paul was talking about and we know the Temple of Artemis, the wonder of the age, was in Ephesus, we know that the temple taught that Eve was created first and that worship of Artemis would keep women safe in childbirth. ( A lot of women died back then giving birth) So we can see why Paul was cryptic and played on words. This woman was decieved out of ignorance, like Paul was and he explains his compassion for those who are deceived out of ignorance in chapter 1.
Kostenburger (and Grudem) have written a book/articles on this ONE WORD and left out a ton of evidence on authenteo that Greek scholars know about. But since he is CBMW, everyone believes him. These scholars have written to them and pleaded for them to revise their writing but they refuse saying that 'they' are the better scholars. Such arrogance is amazing!
Thirdly, Paul switches from plural to singular in the Greek when he gets to this passage: A WOMAN. The 'she' and 'they' are 'gune and aner' in Greek which most often signifys wife and husband.
Fourthly, 'childbearing' in the Greek is a noun. Because Eve is mentioned and Eve was also deceived like this ONE WOMAN who was teaching her husband false doctrine, Paul is referring to the seed of Messiah through a woman. He is referring back to Gen 3. In other words, she needs to know she is saved by the childbirth of Messiah.
BTW: Verse 11 is a verse of exortation and permission: Let a woman learn! he wants her to learn correct doctrine before she teaches anyone else.
John McArthur also teaches that Adam was NOT with Eve in the Garden. So, he is not credible on this issue with me.
This all goes back to a horrible translation of Genesis 3 by a monk named Pagnini in the 1300's (or there abouts) who changed the word 'turning' (tesqua in Hebrew) to 'desire' meaning lust.
The earlier translations such as the Septungant show God telling Eve: You will turn toward your husband and he will rule over you. (my paraphrase)
This is NOT a command but a consequence of sin. Such as men do not HAVE to toil on bad farmland today to be saved.
This tells us that the consequence of sin is that women will turn FROM God and toward their husbands and their husbands will rule over them.
Exactly what many are teaching women in the church to do!!!
We can see this consequence all through the OT and now. Satan is delighted. This teaching is so man centered.
You know what it does? Keeps women focused on their 'role', rules, etc instead of abiding in Christ alone. Can a woman serve two masters? Nope.
"If you read that passage literally, it precludes single men from being deacons, too. It says the "husband of one wife," not the husband of no wife. If I'm not mistaken, Baptist churches still ordain single men."
Polygamy was legal in that day. Jews could have more than one wife if they were not priests. It is much more likely this refers to a man with more than one wife as that would be a problem in the body for an overseer.
If we take the comp defintion, then Paul would not qualify as an elder or deacon.
In 1 Tim 3:1 The word that is translated as 'man' is actually the Greek word 'tis' which means ANYONE or WHOSOEVER.
Tis is repeated in this passage where the translators have put 'his'.
in verse 8 where some translations say 'wives' it is 'gune' WITHOUT aner and means 'woman'.
We know this is true because Phoebe was a real bonafide "diakonos". The same word that has been used for Stephen, Paul, Peter and Even JESUS. It means not only servant but a Christian teacher or pastor.
You guys need to use interlinears so you won't fall for this stuff anymore. also, study the household codes for Greek, Roman and Jewish cultures in the 1 Century. It makes the bible come alive with understanding.
Jesus was radical when it came to women! Just ask Martha. :o)
"Also, I read that McArthur was saying women SHOULD NOT BE second class citizens because of their value in the home."
Because of their value in Christ.
"You are right....wives are to submit to husbands....I meant that but wasn't clear. And you are right, we are all to submit to the proper authority figures, male or female."
What do you do with Ephesians 5:21? Does it exclude believing husbands in the Body?
In the body, we are to submit to one another. Who are the 'authorities' besides the civil government you are referring to? Who are the 'authorities' in the Body? Scripture speaks of servants and serving.
You should look up Hebrews 13:17 in the interlinear. It is a wake up call to bad translations.
I'm pretty sure that the SBC-supported schools do not prevent divorced people from enrolling, as does Mid-America.
Whether or not divorced people, or women, should serve as elders/pastors or deacons, and whether or not the book of Revelation teaches a pre-tributation rapture (or even a future tribulation), and the nature male/female leadership/submission -- these things are all secondary, or even tertiary, matters of doctrine. Same as the nature of election and human choice. These are all matters of interpretation and conscience, and things which people who are fully committed to the authority and inerrancy of God's word can and do disagree. We can study and debate, in order to fully understand and better obey God's Word. But no matter how convinced we are that our position in the right one, we should never assume that those with a different position do not believe the Bible, just because they interpret it differently.
"It is much more likely this refers to a man with more than one wife as that would be a problem in the body for an overseer."
I know. :-) I was just making the point that "literal" interpretation isn't always "accurate" interpretation.
Kind of like in Genesis 33:4 and Luke 15:20. Falling on one's own neck, especially while running, could be painful!
But no matter how convinced we are that our position in the right one, we should never assume that those with a different position do not believe the Bible, just because they interpret it differently.
3:54 PM, July 06, 2008
Amen, and more importantly, we should not be trying to silence anyone who is proclaiming the full Gospel correctly to ANYONE.
I wish more pastors would be as concerned for the unregnerate in the pews. Or the sexual predators. or perhaps even other pastors with questionable fruit.
But they seem to be more concerned about women's 'roles'. As if there are pink and blue bible verses.
Nass, if you believe in inerrancy then you must greet other believers with a Holy Kiss. :o)
At least that is how 'inerrancy' is presented by many. I do believe in the inerrancy of the Word. Just not the inerrancy of the translators!
"Nass, if you believe in inerrancy then you must greet other believers with a Holy Kiss."
Errr... does that mean I have to kiss "oc" and SOTL? Yikes! :-0
Lin said: "I wish more pastors would be as concerned for the unregnerate in the pews. Or the sexual predators. or perhaps even other pastors with questionable fruit."
I say Amen and Amen.
I have "questionable fruit" in the frig.
cakes,
When it's got fur growing on it, it's past "questionable"!
I am a little tired of hearing about how women are responsible for the emasculating of men. I think they should bear at least PART of the responsibility. I am married to a manly man who was raised almost exclusively by his momma (also around 1 set of grandparents including a very manly grandfather) and after being around his dad for a few years, I think he turned out much better just being with mom. His dad has never been interested in him or his brother from the first marriage. We always thought he was really close to the second set of kids. Then on Thursday, his other son was in a horrible accident and in ICU and NEITHER of the parents have made it into town yet and apparently his mother isn't coming at all at least right now. His dad is coming tomorrow. I guess where I'm going with this is if anyone should be "emasculated" it should be my husband but he has overcome because of his love of the Lord. He doesn't blame anything on his dad or stop loving him - I'm the one who has a problem with him. I don't think we need all these classes at church to make us into a man or a woman. I really have kind of a problem with men's and women's ministries. I have always seen them as a way to split couples up instead of bringing them together. Most of the women's studies I have been in have been conducted during the workday when we wouldn't be together anyway. I was asked to decorate a table for a women's ministry event that was going to be held on a Friday night and I immediately said I was busy. The woman was kind of taken back but that is my time at home. I know everyone doesn't have a spouse and of course we need activities for singles but I prefer couples get togethers for those who are married. Now those of you who want to get AWAY from your spouse may completely disagree with me. : )
P.S. I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds John Mac rather tiring. I have to hear him quoted a lot and I have to say that his teachings are not the BIBLE and he is not God. He does make some good points in some areas and bad points in others. JMHO
Cakes, Get some of those fruit and veg bags. Your stuff will stay fresh for weeks!
I'm with you on the women's and men's ministries, and I'll go you one better and say that I don't think all the "singles ministry" stuff is necessary either. So much fluff, so little substance.
I see where "Girl Talk" is returning to Bellevue with this...
"Girl Talk" Continues July 15
Join author Pam Kanaly
The Women's Ministry "Girl Talk" Summer Book Club continues Tuesday, July 15, at 6:30 p.m. in the Fellowship Hall with special guest Pam Kanaly, author of Will the Real Me Please Stand Up?. Come learn how to enjoy your spiritual heritage through Pam's teaching of the "I Am Blessings." It's time for the real you to stand up and embrace who you are in Christ!
Tickets are on sale for $5 at the Events Registration Center. Childcare will be available by reservation. Light refreshments will be served.
No offense to Ms. Kanaly, but can anyone tell me exactly how you "embrace who you are"? I mean, can't you just look in the mirror and see? And if you haven't figured it out by now... well... I don't think there's much hope. I, me, I, me, I, me... me, me, me. It's all about ME! And excuse ME, but grown men do not refer to themselves as "boys." They don't have "Boys' Breakfast at Bellevue" on Thursday mornings. (What's wrong with having a morning breakfast/Bible study open to everyone anyway?) So why should grown women refer to themselves as "girls"?
So many of the "women's" events are scheduled during the day when {gasp!} some women have to work! Yes, I know working outside the home is not fulfilling our proper roles as women, but hey, some women have developed this habit. It's called "eating."
"Get some of those fruit and veg bags. Your stuff will stay fresh for weeks!"
Are you sure?
Nass said "I'll go you one better and say that I don't think all the "singles ministry" stuff is necessary either. So much fluff, so little substance."
AMEN! I HATE Singles ministries. I went to a 1 year program at BBC for single parents, hoping to gain my footing being both Mom and Dad. Instead, it was all about the grown-ups, not the kids, with a dose of meatmarket shopping besides. No thanks.
And to get back on topic, church shouldn't be a dating service either. :)
Wow!!! We are really having some good discussion and I missed it....I'm sure Lin and CSBCer are "counting sheep" by now!!!
Cakes has some questionable fruits in the fridge???
Oh my!
I threw mine out yesterday,Cakes.
We need to take Lin's suggestion!!!
I question if the ministers should be preaching on most of the subjects they do....depression? Marriage? The ROLES of men and women as seen thru the SBC lens? Drinking? Tithing? Authority of the bishop,elder,priest??? Authority of men over women?
I got hit with that at my job a few weeks back.
I was told to OBEY!!!!!!!
I thought he was kidding.
Then Bro R's quote was repeated to me..."anything with 2 heads is a freak."
Funny I never knew that was in the Bible for employees.
This is all getting ridiculous.
IF the teaching of the word was being done without all the hidden agendas, there would be hearts changing and Christians growing and living lives that witnessed to the world we are in daily.
We wouldn't need all the marketing and advertisements that make church look so pleasing to the natural man.
This is all so dysfunctional and bogus.
Bowtheknee...I agree with you!
I see
1. Watchman - we need you to keep posting. I wasn't planning to go to that BBC event but we don't know how many lurkers are out there who might plan to go. They need to know the truth.
2. NASS is right - sounds like the "girls" thing is all about ME!!! And some metaphysics thrown in - lovely.
3. I don't think much of Singles functions either unless they includes some type of indepth Bible study which we have already discovered is sadly lacking in most churches.
4. I am a member of a SBC church where depression, marriage, etc are rarely ever preached on because the pastor stays busy going through a book of the Bible. I think he has preached one sermon on marriage in over 2 years. However the music is so LOUD and shallow I can hardly bring myself to go there anymore. That is why I started going to Wed. night prayer meeting at the "liberal" denom across the street from my house. Solid preaching is out there you just have to look for it - also you might have to ignore some idiotic music in order to hear a decent sermon. It is really getting old............complaining loudly to anyone over there who will listen doesn't seem to be helping much.
I shouldn't even bother, but as a friend and a fan of Pam's I feel compelled to attempt a post. I'll post on Mike's blog if it doesn't make it here.
NASS, if you really want to know what Pam means when she says 'embrace yourself' you can easily find out by reading her book "Will The Real Me Please Stand Up." In it, you will read what she means by the "I am blessings".
Since God has blessed us, we can say "I am blessed." Since God called Abraham a friend, and we are his spiritual descendents, we can say "I am a friend of God." Since God has made us holy, we can say "I am holy." Those are the "I am blessings" she will speak about at Bellevue.
I'm amazed, absolutely and truly astonished that you would allow Pam Kanaly to be misrepresented in this way.
Perhaps you don't know who she is, but she's a tremendous advocate and supporter of single mothers. She pionered the first statewide single mother's conference in America, and her Arise Ministry has given single mothers more support than you can possible imagine.
With all the talk about how beaten down single mothers are, why is it that watchman is allowed to post lies about one of their most staunch supporters?
And watchman, you seem to enjoy being rebuked so let me "bless" you with this. Your brain must be pretty muscle bound since most of the exercise it gets is jumping to conclusions. This is one of the blindest, most biased comments I've ever read:
For those looking for the reasons to oppose what has happened to BBC , one need only look at the stupefying and abyssmal lack of Biblical discernemnt that is eveident by the fact that such an event and such a metaphysical speaker was cleared for ministry and womens' consumption at BBC and warmly invited in.
Sir, you simply do not know what you are talking about, and even though no one ever reads what you say I trust that your comments will be removed.
I pray that God will spare you from the consequences of stupidity.
faithnhope,
Someone sent me this a while back. Said they found it on another blog and that you were the author:
"... and NASS is a real piece of work. She seems like an incredibly bitter and hateful woman to me, and she really enjoys having the last word in an argument. I've witnessed many people with similar character flaws, but since she's appointed herself as the voice of those who feel powerless at Bellevue, she has an enormous potential to do damage. I wonder if anyone in the last 100 years has been more destructive to Bellevue? And I also can't help but wonder how God is going to deal with her in the end. What a shame that she's trading an eternity of glory just so that she can be large and in charge today. But God has promised to judge, and I'll step aside and let him handle it. If she hasn't seen the error of her ways by now, I don't see how she ever will. Of all the people on earth to administrate that blog, what a disaster for a two-penny dictator like her to get the job."
I don't think any further comment is needed.
"Then Bro R's quote was repeated to me..."anything with 2 heads is a freak.""
Well, there is a difference between secular authority and within the body. And when those words were written about civil government who were the leaders? Nero, Caligula?
But anyone who uses the '2 heads is a freak' argument within the Body is debating against themselves. They ARE teaching exactly that. They teach that a woman has 2 heads:
1.Christ
2. Her Husband.
They do not see the illogical outcome of what they teach. They teach what they are against.
Now, if they would just admit that they are REALLY saying that the husband is her earthly priest then they could say she has ONE head-her husband. But, they don't dare.
There is submission but the scripture does not say we are submitting to an authority in the Body. There is also mutual submission within the Body but that does not mean we submit to false teachers, either.
Look up Hebrews 13: 17 in the interlinear. It is shocking how badly it has been translated.
"What a shame that she's trading an eternity of glory just so that she can be large and in charge today."
This sounds just like the Gaines'! Nass, too bad you can't get rich and travel off your little old blog like Gaines' are off their position and travel clubs.
" Of all the people on earth to administrate that blog, what a disaster for a two-penny dictator like her to get the job.""
A dictator has to have power over others in order to 'dictate'. Gaines does by way of his position as a false teacher.
Nass doesn't. She only has a blog and you don't like it one bit that she is not censored. Because that is what Gaines does with his power to anyone who disagrees. Like his minions shutting off the mic when the victim was coming to speak.
Here are some of Pam's deep spiritual topics:
http://www.ariseministries.net/pam_topics.php
I personally find this one quite deep (sarcasm intended):
FROM SERVANT TO CINDERELLA (RUTH)
Enjoy this first person presentation as Pam dresses as the character of Ruth. Pam generates passion in becoming a woman of excellence. (engaging)
Cinderella? Can people keep a straight face? Ruth becomes a Cinderella?
faithnhope,
I think NASS' point was that most of us have better things to do than read Pam's book about 100 spiritual entitlements that sounds a lot like like our current welfare system. We are ENTITLED??? I don't think so. God has promised us eternal life and victory in Jesus if we accept His free gift but I don't know about entitlements. If she is a blessing to you, go for it! As far as Watchman goes, we all have an opinion and it looks like NASS posted yours. Watchman is usually right on the money - we reserve the right to agree to disagree. I ALWAYS read what Watchman has to say. I guess that makes me an idiot. We have some single moms here - we'll see if any of them have been blessed by Pam.
Faith: you posted: "Perhaps you don't know who she is, but she's a tremendous advocate and supporter of single mothers. She pionered the first statewide single mother's conference in America, and her Arise Ministry has given single mothers more support than you can possible imagine."
Having been a single mom for over 9 years, having homeschooled 4 children through graduation, currently working 3 jobs while my kids are in college....I wonder where this Single Mom program is and where was when I needed it so much. Is it for specific churches? I have never heard of it. :)
Hey NASS,
What makes faithnhope think you are a "she"? Insight perhaps? Discernment maybe?
Good grief, who wrote this stuff??? Charming?
TEA FOR TWO
In this interactive time, Pam imaginatively creates the atmosphere of a tea party. God longs for fellowship, a time of filling your cup with His presence. (charming) (This presentation finds a perfect fit at a "Tea Party" luncheon.)
This is the kind of silly, shallow fluff that turns me off to "women's ministries."
POWER OF INFLUENCE
YOU are simply irresistible! How can you be a difference maker in your sphere of influence? Discover foundational keys in building a contagious legacy. One woman said in tears, "I wasn't expecting to be moved like that!" (powerful)
There seems to be a lot of emphasis on "me, myself, and I" here.
THERE'S NO PLACE LIKE HOME
Dressed as Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz, Pam inspires an invigorating spirit of expectancy towards the New Jerusalem, every believer's future "home sweet home". (rejuvenating)
Oy vey. Please pass the duct tape.
More Pam Kanaly presentations:
POWER OF INFLUENCE
YOU are simply irresistible! How can you be a difference maker in your sphere of influence? Discover foundational keys in building a contagious legacy. One woman said in tears, "I wasn't expecting to be moved like that!" (powerful)
This is the kind of stuff watchman is talking about. The entire premise is wrong. When we are Born Again, we are transformed. There are no formula's or 'keys' to do anything. These kinds of presenters use emotion to generate loyalty. It does not last. Transformation in regeneration lasts because it is of Christ. Not man.
This stuff sounds more like motivational tips with Christian makeup on. They take the secular drivel out there and slap a fish on it.
NASS,
I knew that post would get back to you, so I never deleted it. I was very upset and I apologize for it. You've shown a lot of tenacity, and I'm pretty sure you weren't too injured by what I said. :)
Lin,
At some point in your walk with the Lord you changed direction, and someday I think your direction will change again. You say a lot of insightful things, but you're presently very biased against men. Keep studying.
Diana,
As far as Watchman goes, we all have an opinion and it looks like NASS posted yours. Watchman is usually right on the money - we reserve the right to agree to disagree. I ALWAYS read what Watchman has to say. I guess that makes me an idiot.
I'm not sure why you're hostile to Pam's ministry, but if you have better things to do than pay attention to what a sister has to say about God then I encourage you to be the one to go for it. The Bible says that God ordained praise from the mouths of infants and babes, so I've always felt I could learn something from anyone.
But before you follow watchman instead, do a websearch on "I AM" and you'll see the cultic babble that he was in turn babbling about. That's Guy Ballard's cult. There's no relation between that junk and Pam's book whatsoever, and if you'd rather listen to someone without the simple discernment to tell a new age movement from a book about Jesus, then I won't stop you. Watch out for that huge ditch, though...
Concerned,
Pam remarried after 5 years as a single mom, and her ministry has shifted to a more general women's ministry. It was always more of a ministry of encouragement than practical knowledge, but it was more than most people tried to do for unmarried mothers.
mom4,
It takes very little discernment to know that a person is a she when everyone calls her 'she'.
And everyone else, just stop trying to hijack the discussion. I don't care if a Tuesday night women's meeting is too shallow for you or not! If it is, then I applaud your maturity. And whether you like me or not is irrelevant. The point is simply that Watchman flew into a fit at the mention of the words "I am" and wrote outrageous lies about a friend of mine.
For those looking for the reasons to oppose what has happened to BBC , one need only look at the stupefying and abyssmal lack of Biblical discernemnt that is eveident by the fact that such an event and such a metaphysical speaker was cleared for ministry and womens' consumption at BBC and warmly invited in.
May God save us all from stupidity!
And having little hope of getting my point across, I'll let whoever wishes have the last word.
But there's a difference between using examples from little girls' storybooks to illustrate Bible truths and being satanic.
I hope some of you are aware of that and disapprove of the label watchman so carelessly used.
"I knew that post would get back to you, so I never deleted it. I was very upset and I apologize for it. You've shown a lot of tenacity, and I'm pretty sure you weren't too injured by what I said." :)
Why should I be injured? I don't know you from Adam, but when I read that I remembered what my grandmother always said -- consider the source.
I happen to think "watchman" is a bit over the top about just about everything (my opinion), but he's entitled to his opinion as are you and I. For the record, I never called Ms. Kanaly's stuff Satanic. I called it silly, shallow fluff based upon the description of it. Maybe there is some substance there -- if you can get past the silly costumes and make believe. Her audience is supposed to be grown women, not a bunch of little girls.
For the record, I never called Ms. Kanaly's stuff Satanic.
Watchman did.
bowtheknee said...
1. Watchman - we need you to keep posting. I wasn't planning to go to that BBC event but we don't know how many lurkers are out there who might plan to go. They need to know the truth.
2. NASS is right - sounds like the "girls" thing is all about ME!!! And some metaphysics thrown in - lovely.
And so did Diana.
I've never heard an old adage that said "if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck then it must be a chicken."
Besides, I've always thought a little fluff every now and then is a good thing in small doses. Bob Dylan said once that even Jesus didn't preach all the time.
Did you hear that, Watchman? BOB DYLAN!
I have a question......Why do we have to have a "theme" for everything, a comparasion for every Bible study??? Why can't we just study the Bible?
I will learn no better watching someone who looks like Dorothy than I will with my nose in a Bible.
I'm wondering.....why is everything leaning towards the PRODUCTION instead of the content?
Cute.
If it takes a circus to get them, it will take a circus to keep them. Our Creator and Savior deserve better than a circus.
"I'm wondering.....why is everything leaning towards the PRODUCTION instead of the content?"
I think you'll find the answer to that in The Wizard of Oz, too. Behind the curtain....
"At some point in your walk with the Lord you changed direction, and someday I think your direction will change again. You say a lot of insightful things, but you're presently very biased against men. Keep studying."
So studying scripture as it was written in the Greek and exegiting scripture in context means I hate men? Nice try. Did you take logic in college?
Faith, don't you love the Word and want to understand it deeply as it was written? And not just as it was translated for us by fallible humans?
Just look up Psalms 68:11 in an interlinear sometime and see how different it is from all translation we have. And that is ONE example of hundreds.
Sounds to me like YOU need to study, little one. or maybe, Cinderella? :o)
"I'm wondering.....why is everything leaning towards the PRODUCTION instead of the content?"
Because that is the easiest way to AVOID the real content. You can make out of it what you want.
Going deep in the Word divides. It offends...even professing Christians. It takes time. It does not sell well. It does not pack out rooms.
"Going deep in the Word divides. It offends...even professing Christians. It takes time. It does not sell well. It does not pack out rooms."
Or sell books?
I am not hostile toward this Pam person. I have NEVER HEARD OF HER. I also did not call her satanic. Watchman mentioned the metaphysical and then so did I. I have no idea if she's involved in that or not. Sounds like she's involved in fairyland. I was just waiting to see if Concerned had ever heard of her. That has now been answered. Please go enjoy the dress up show with my blessings. I have already mentioned what I think about women's ministries in general. I think we now need to get back to "What is Church" and off this stupid subject. Pam does not sound like she reflects what I think of when I hear the word Church. Neither does much of what else goes on inside the big buildings.
Peace sis!
Lin, I'm afraid you and I will never see eye to eye since I've committed the unpardonable sin of attending a seminary. When I studied the languages I was influenced by men who apparently were motivated by a hidden desire to dominate me, so my interpretations will be quite different than yours and unacceptable.
If your motivation is for a greater depth of understanding, then fine. But if you're studying languages because you think the translations we have are corrupt, that's not fine. That's essentially what the Mormons believe, and that's what I've gleaned from your posts.
lin said...
...exegiting scripture...
I'll resist the almost uncontrollable urge to say that you don't even know how to spell exegete, and I'll just simply point out how easy it is to make a mistake. That's precisely why we need to be careful about implying our modern Bibles contain error.
People WILL believe you!
Keep studying...
concernedSBCer said...
I have a question......Why do we have to have a "theme" for everything, a comparasion for every Bible study??? Why can't we just study the Bible?
I will learn no better watching someone who looks like Dorothy than I will with my nose in a Bible.
I'm wondering.....why is everything leaning towards the PRODUCTION instead of the content?
3:20 PM, July 07, 2008
What you call a production I'd call an illustration.
Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
The lesson was not about birds, grass, and lilies, but by using those examples of things that the people were familiar with Jesus was able to make his point more real, and also give his listeners a way to share what they had heard with others.
concernedSBCer said...
If it takes a circus to get them, it will take a circus to keep them. Our Creator and Savior deserve better than a circus.
3:24 PM, July 07, 2008
Now this is a very real problem. Someone said "If a church marries the spirit of this world she'll be a widow within one generation."
Many churches do hope to draw people with entertainment, but that's not the case with Pam. She has a message to share, and it will be Christ-honoring. Perhaps it won't have enough spiritual depth to challenge everyone in the room, but that's no reason for watchman to make such careless statements about her.
Faith said..
"so I've always felt I could learn something from anyone. "
Sure doesn't go along with your angry judgement of Watchman, Lin, or Nass.
and you know nothing about Lin's walk?
Talk about arrogance and thinking you are large and in charge!
"Your brain must be pretty muscle bound since most of the exercise it gets is jumping to conclusions."...
"The point is simply that Watchman flew into a fit at the mention of the words "I am" and wrote outrageous lies about a friend of mine."
Golly gee, doesn't sound like Watchman is the one having fits on this blog.
You make things so personal, Faith Hope....very sad.
"I wonder if anyone in the last 100 years has been more destructive to Bellevue?"
Now THAT is a really stupid remark.
"What a shame that she's trading an eternity of glory just so that she can be large and in charge today."
So it's YOU who knows who is saved and not????
I guess that makes you God....and large and in control???
"Lin, I'm afraid you and I will never see eye to eye since I've committed the unpardonable sin of attending a seminary."
Oh, good grief. The two of you might never see eye to eye, but whether or not you attended seminary has nothing to do with it.
"But if you're studying languages because you think the translations we have are corrupt, that's not fine."
Our English translations were translated by men -- men who were influenced by the culture of their day. And as you yourself pointed out, it's easy to make mistakes. Who are you to judge someone's reason(s) for studying the original languages?
Interlinear Bible download.
Diana said...
Please go enjoy the dress up show with my blessings.
Glad there's no hostility there, Diana.
What is church?
Matthew 18:15-17
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
There was one messiah, 12 apostles, and perhaps many other disciples who would fall away. And yet the Lord speaks of the church in the present tense.
At that time there were no church buildings, no hymnals, and no hymns for that matter other than the songs of Zion. There were no choirs, no deacons, no elders, and no steeples.
But the church was there. I can rule out most of the definitions of what a church should be by considering that passage. Jesus didn't build any pews in his workshop, and he didn't start any building programs either. I think the key to understanding what a church is might be the role that it plays in the restoration of relationships.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Maybe a better title would have been "What is 'church' NOT?"
9:06 AM, June 12, 2008
Agreed.
While I certainly appreciate the way that so many people have engaged me, I've spent more time than I meant to here. I don't have much free time these days, so I have to say goodbye for now.
Grace,
Hope
Faith/Hope: My concern lies in the fact that I see many churches drawing people in yet not seeming to disciple them.
I like parables and examples too. However, there is a certain nudge I get when I know something is over the top and away from the purpose at hand, which is to share the gospel.
Matt 28: "18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
I think we need to do a better job of verse 20.
I have never heard of Pam. That doesn't mean she's not worth knowing. I just don't know her. She doesn't know me either but I am worth knowing. I never said anything negative about her. Please retract your claws and remember we are all on the same side. As believers, we should steadfastedly hold to the Truth in scripture. Period.
And yes.,...it is easier to say what church is NOT than what it should be. I did a study and there is not enough room on the blog to list what church should be, how leaders should act, and how believers should behave. I think a good start is with the 10 Commandments. That would just about solve our problems, don't you think?
If we loved our God above everything, and loved our neighbor as ourselves, that would make church pretty easy. No pride, just love of God and love of others. I think that's what it should be.
"Lin, I'm afraid you and I will never see eye to eye since I've committed the unpardonable sin of attending a seminary."
A great place to learn from those in ivory towers. Then most leave and teach the error they were taught merely reinforcing it. The latest is the subordination of Christ within the Trinity for all eternity.
Ministry has become nothing but a career choice. Seminary never taught anyone how to follow Christ. The seminary cannot sanctify you nor save you. As a matter of fact, haven't most of the sexual predator SBC ministers come from seminaries? The ones who coddle them and ignore scripture come from our seminaries, too.
How could that happen?
Now, one has to wonder why Christ chose the less educated Peter who was obviously not studying under a rabbi when he was chosen. hmmm. But then chooses the educated Paul to take the Gospel to the Gentiles!
Your arrogant comments kind of remind me of this verse:
26For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 1 Corin 1
So, is attending seminary a boast? That is good because I am foolish, low and despised.
(Be warned, there is little you can do with a seminary education except boast about it)
"If your motivation is for a greater depth of understanding, then fine. But if you're studying languages because you think the translations we have are corrupt, that's not fine. That's essentially what the Mormons believe, and that's what I've gleaned from your posts."
Funny you mention the Mormons. That is exactly what some who witness to both Mormon and JW cults say that CBMW very sounds much like what they teach about women.
Are you seriously going to argue that all translations are literal and inerrant?
"I'll resist the almost uncontrollable urge to say that you don't even know how to spell exegete, and I'll just simply point out how easy it is to make a mistake. That's precisely why we need to be careful about implying our modern Bibles contain error."
I cannot spell their, thier, either. As a matter of fact my spelin and gramer are atrocus.
Feel better? I told you I was foolish, low and despised. You expect perfect spelling?
Concerned,
I’ve spent way too much time blogging, but since it was you who asked for my thoughts I’ll share briefly. I’m sure you know how difficult working multiple jobs is, and I’ve also got a bad case of blackberry thumb so I probably won’t touch on everything as much as I’d like.
My concern lies in the fact that I see many churches drawing people in yet not seeming to disciple them.
Let’s think of this a little differently, and say that instead of not discipling them we’re discipling them in the wrong way. Every day, every time we interact with someone we’re discipling them, but the question really is what are we discipling them in? Is it Christlikeness or not? There are many churches that are not, but there are also many that are.
Please retract your claws and remember we are all on the same side. As believers, we should steadfastedly hold to the Truth in scripture.
And one of those truths is to always speak the truth. If you’ll re-read watchman’s post, you’ll see that he branded Pam Kanaly as cultic, and made assumptions about her person. Diana quickly chimed in how she was glad that Pam had been exposed, invited further deception from watchman, and rejoiced that people would stay away because of this false accusation. I couldn’t really say I was on Pam’s side if I didn’t try to expose the error, and I couldn’t say I was on your side if I allowed you to be misled. Could I?
And yes.,...it is easier to say what church is NOT than what it should be. I did a study and there is not enough room on the blog to list what church should be, how leaders should act, and how believers should behave. I think a good start is with the 10 Commandments. That would just about solve our problems, don't you think?
Following the 10 commandments was just that, a good start. By and large, despite their repeated idolatry, Israel followed the law of Moses. (At least for a while, after the hammer fell.) The problem is that they added a whole lot of things to it that were unnecessary and man made. I think we do the same thing with the church.
If we loved our God above everything, and loved our neighbor as ourselves, that would make church pretty easy. No pride, just love of God and love of others. I think that's what it should be.
I know what you’re saying, but allow me deliberately misinterpret you to make a point that many people miss. Loving God and loving others sounds really nice, but it’s not nearly enough. You’ve read in Matthew 22, when the Pharisee asked Jesus,
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
All the Jewish man knew was the law of Moses, and Jesus encouraged him to follow it. It wasn’t enough to save him, though. The very fact that Jesus was standing there talking to him was because much more than law was needed. If the Pharisee had asked him how to receive eternal life instead of asking him a legal question he’d have gotten a much different answer. Loving God and loving others is a law. But no law could ever bring about salvation and restoration, so we needed something else, something new. Jesus gave it to us:
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
The way Jesus loved the apostles was much different and much, much more divine than the way the law commands men love their neighbors. Although his “new” command might sound similar to what the law already commanded, it was truly revolutionary. (Perhaps someone with time might expound on the differences between agape and phileo.)
If agape love is what characterizes a disciple, then it is also what qualifies a person to be called a disciple in the first place. This is what people must be taught, then. Not rules, not rituals, not hymns, not praise choruses, and not proper behavior. A lifestyle of worship and a godly respect for others will be the supernatural result of a person who has received the sacrificial, servant-hearted love of God. D.A. Carson explains the difference between God’s love and our love in “The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God” (using an illustration, by the way):
Picture Charles and Susan walking down a beach, hand in hand. They have kicked off their shoes and the wet sand squishes between their toes. Charles turns to Susan, gazes deeply into her large, hazel eyes, and says, “Susan, I love you, I really do.” What does he mean? If we assume he has decency and Christian virtue, the least he means is something like this, “Susan, you mean everything to me. I can’t live without you. Your smile paralyzes me from fifty yards; your sparkling good humor, your beautiful eyes, the scent of your hair – everything about you transfixes me . . . I love you.”
What he most certainly does not mean is, “Susan, in spite of the fact that your nose is so large it belongs in the cartoons; your hair is so greasy it could lubricate an eighteen-wheeler; your knees are so bony a camel looks elegant; your personality makes Attila the Hun look sweet . . . but, Susan, I love you.”
So now God comes through His word and says, “I love you.” What does He mean? Does he mean something like, “You mean everything to me. I can’t live without you. Your personality, your witty conversation, your beauty, your smile – everything about you transfixes me . . . I love you!”? When He says He loves us, does not God rather mean something like this, “Listen, morally speaking, your huge nose and greasy hair; your disjointed knees and terribly selfish personality; your sinfulness makes you disgustingly ugly to Me, but I love you, not because you are attractive, but because I have chosen to love you.”
That’s the kind of love that makes the church what it should be. And that’s the kind of love that we won’t see perfected until the day the Lord returns. But we can be confident that God who began a good work will complete it on that day and not before. When we finally see him we’ll be like him, but not until then.
It’s inevitable that we’ll become disillusioned with our worship services. Church was never meant to be 3 hours on Sunday and a prayer meeting on Wednesday, and if that’s what we’re depending on for a full experience of God then of course we’ll feel something’s wrong. I’m perfectly aware that my personal experiences might have made me a little jaded against the world, but even the sons of Korah lamented the loss of their assembly in Psalm 42.
These things I remember and I pour out my soul within me
For I used to go along with the throng and lead them in procession to the house of God, With the voice of joy and thanksgiving, a multitude keeping festival.
The church is not heaven on earth, and I don’t believe it was ever meant to be. And I don't feel abandoned because I don't really feel I fit into a typical church. I'm not hurt because Christians don't always accept me despite my flaws and peculiarities, but it’s my goal to always accept others in spite of theirs. It’s not easy, but no one ever promised it would be.
Now I really have to go. Keep seeking God, and keep loving others.
We really are on the same side.
HP
Well, I know I have certainly felt the love.
The problem with speaking about love is that sometimes people refuse to listen to the message.
I learned a lot about love from an old Sunday School teacher. His name was Warren Ward, but not all of the people in his class practice what he taught, apparently.
It's just human nature.
You know, so much of what drives the commentary, as in our lives, is conflict. Sometimes I don't know if the conversation will move forward unless there is a fresh outrage or cause for scrutiny.
Watchman seems to live up his moniker, always warning as to the perilous and evil swarming amongst us. I won't live my life like that--I think on the quotation by Ernest Becker: "In seeking to avoid evil, [humanity] is responsible for bringing more evil into the world than organisms could ever do merely by exercising their digestive tracts. It is [our] ingenuity, rather than [our] animal nature, that has given [our] fellow creatures such a bitter earthly fate."
That said, the persons behind the monikers are all complex, multifaceted human beings (as are the Gnostics and Buddhists, Watchman), brimming with the beauty and frailty that I share. If I'm mindful of that, then the chasm between myself and others is diminished. Finding empathy with others, even the antagonistic, is not difficult, if I choose to.
This thread is a good example of looking ahead, discovering what it is one should seek in a church, even with the snarkiness of late. You guys are supposed to be on the same team; and remember, Jesus hung out with the dispised and those of questionable repute. So, on that note, thanks for having me.
;)
So, what we have here is hope and fear--pun intended!
"The problem with speaking about love is that sometimes people refuse to listen to the message."
Maybe because it is disguised by so many of us?
Maybe it's from lack of sleep or something, but I have no idea what any of you are talking about today! Except "cakes." LOL!
I understand Watchman warnings. It is of the utmost importance that we must heed the Lord's admonition to be aware of the evil perpetuated from false prophets. We are sent out as sheep in the midst of wolves,; and we are to be shrewd as serpents,...
But we also need to be as innocent as doves... (see Matthew 10).
So therefore I also understand that while we are not to be ignorant of the evil and we are to guard against it, and to also warn others of the danger; the Bible also gives us the Good News. Certainly there are those who wish the Kingdom harm. But there is more than fear and foreboding in the Scriptures. The Bible also tells us of the victory over sin and death which is provided by our Lord Jesus Christ in His life,death,and resurrection. There is much comfort and encouragement in the fact that God has provided and secured for us abundant and eternal life. So I therefore refuse to
walk in fear of those who preach and practice falsely, or even those who wish to harm me or fight against the Kingdom, for He who started the work will finish it. And I will fight the good fight and finish the race that He has set out for me. And I trust that it shall be accomplished, because it is not by my power, but by His.
oc.
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