Formerly called the "pulpit committee," is the body now called the "pastor search committee" always really qualified to search for a new pastor, and do they really do enough research before making a decision?
There were definitely some questions regarding conflicts of interest with Bellevue's last pastor search committee.
Related articles:
Pastor searches packed with perils
INTEGRITY IN MINISTRY: NO HIDDEN SKELETONS IN YOUR CLOSET
Pastoral Search Questions
The Pastor Search Process
This illustrates how monumental the task must seem!
Pastor Search Committee Workbook
Steve Gaines addresses the congregation of Gardendale's FBC July 10, 2005 regarding the call to Bellevue in his "Didn't I tick you guys off?" speech. Summary here.
There were definitely some questions regarding conflicts of interest with Bellevue's last pastor search committee.
Related articles:
Pastor searches packed with perils
INTEGRITY IN MINISTRY: NO HIDDEN SKELETONS IN YOUR CLOSET
Pastoral Search Questions
The Pastor Search Process
This illustrates how monumental the task must seem!
Pastor Search Committee Workbook
Steve Gaines addresses the congregation of Gardendale's FBC July 10, 2005 regarding the call to Bellevue in his "Didn't I tick you guys off?" speech. Summary here.
Thanks to "amazed" for this topic suggestion.
763 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 763 Newer› Newest»12For the LORD of hosts will have a day of reckoning
Against everyone who is proud and lofty
And against everyone who is lifted up,
That he may be abased.
13And it will be against all the cedars of Lebanon that are lofty and lifted up,
Against all the oaks of Bashan,
14Against all the lofty mountains,
Against all the hills that are lifted up,
15Against every high tower,
Against every fortified wall,
16Against all the ships of Tarshish
And against all the beautiful craft.
17The pride of man will be humbled
And the loftiness of men will be abased;
And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day
18But the )idols will completely vanish.
19Men will go into caves of the rocks
And into holes of the ground
Before the terror of the LORD
And the splendor of His majesty,
When He arises to make the earth tremble.
20In that day men will cast away to the moles and the bats
Their idols of silver and their idols of gold,
Which they made for themselves to worship,
21In order to go into the caverns of the rocks and the clefts of the cliffs
Before the terror of the LORD and the splendor of His majesty,
When He arises to make the earth tremble.
22Stop regarding man, whose breath of life is in his nostrils;
For why should he be esteemed?
amazed said...
Hey folks--When you start to wondering how important mankind is in God's eye, just remember this. Man is a small speck on the planet earth. Planet earth is an even smaller speck in our own galaxy and there are untold numbers of other galaxies in the vast darkness of outer space.
Are we all still feeling significant?
Actually, I feel very significant.
Ephesians 2
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
I think that makes us very significant in God's eyes.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
I feel significant because of His love for me and the grace He constantly shows me. I also feel insignificant in the shadow of his great power, glory and sovereignty.
Isaiah 66:10"Be joyful with Jerusalem and rejoice for her, all you who love her;
Be exceedingly glad with her, all you who mourn over her,
11That you may nurse and be satisfied with her comforting breasts,
That you may suck and be delighted with her bountiful bosom."
12For thus says the LORD, "Behold, I extend peace to her like a river,
And the glory of the nations like an overflowing stream;
And you will be nursed, you will be carried on the hip and fondled on the knees.
13"As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you;
And you will be comforted in Jerusalem."
Thanks Astounded, do you think He loves us? Just a little bit?
Just sayin'.
oc.
Gal 2:20 20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Andrew Said:
"Come on Lifeway, how about a book dedicated to finding God's Man in the bathroom.
Okay maybe not."
Isn't Senator Craig working on this one?
Ez,
Isaiah 2:22 is the companion verse to James 4: (Just kidding)
What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that." 16As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
astounded,
Well said.
God made this 'speck' and redeemed it, and I feel very significant as well.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Rev 4:1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
8And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Ok everyone, the line for the high fives forms behind astounded and larry. Never mind me, I will hold the coats and purses....
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
ez,
Will you hold coats like Saul held the coats of those who stoned Stephen? The righteous man who saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God?
Was Saul rewarded for that?
All high fivin', towel snappin',butt slappin', and any other self congratulatory expressions have been put on hold until further notice...
Rev. 5:11...And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the numbers of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
12:saying with a loud voice,
"worthy is the Lamb that was slain to recieve power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing".
13: And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard them saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever".
14:And the four living creatures kept saying "Amen". And the elders fell down and worshipped.
Thanks, oc. BTW, you know you're contagious, right? I keep having to stop myself from writing "just saying" after all of my posts now. It's not that I think there's anything wrong with it. It's just that I'm not really sure what it means and it's not exactly what I'm trying to say anyway. But for some reason, it sounds good after a post. =) I'm telling you! Contagious. LOL
Housewife,
Just sayin',
oc. ;)
ezekiel said...
Ok everyone, the line for the high fives forms behind astounded and larry. Never mind me, I will hold the coats and purses....
From an earlier post, I am making the assumption that inference is that I will be first in line to trade high fives with the Lord Jesus Christ.
I don't know about the high five line, but while you are holding the coats and purses I will be among the ones down on my face in awe and reverence before my savior.
Enough! Everyone go to bed.
NASS,
Night. :)
JUST SAYIN'.
oc. :)
There are several universal axioms.
I list a few:
1. Jesus is Lord.
It matters not what any man thinks. This is a fact.
2. Jesus came to this earth and died for the sins of all mankind.
Astounded stated this in his quote of John 3:16.
3. All of Gods' creation is significant to God.
Matthew 10
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
So are you saying that to consider yourself to be something less than what God considers you to be is biblical? I do not see that in any of the scripture that you have quoted. Conversely, considering yourself to be insignificant cheapens that which God considers significant.
I understand the scripture you quote as a separation of God and man. There is no sin in considering youself to be significant since it is God's will for us to be significant. I consider myself to be significant to God. I also consider myself to be separate from God in as I am an imperfect being. (Sorry, I am not getting into an argument that if God is perfect, why did He create an imperfect creation.) It is clear in the scripture that you quote that it is a sin for man to consider himself to be on par with God. Hence the references to boasting. I am NOT boasting by proclaiming to be significant. It would be sinful for me to boast that, since I am significant to God, I am therefore on an equal level with God.
Apples are not oranges and the two cannot be compared as you have attempted to do in you attempt at dueling scriptures.
AS far as the high fives for Jesus line? I would seriously rethink my stance to hold the belongings of those that set themselves on a pedestal high enough to deliver that high five. Saul was clearly guilty by association.
As for me, I will be next to Astounded, my face buried in the gold paved streets of Heaven. I doubt that the high fivers and their accomplices will be anywhere near.
Praise Jesus for considering me significant enough to die for.
And praise the Holy Spirit for making me realize that I am significant enough to God that He wants me in His fellowship and provided a way for me, through my faith in Jesus, to join Him in eternal fellowship with.
MUSIC EVALUATION
We are: spirit, soul and body
Music is: melody, harmony and rhythm
True melody will lift our spirits towards God.
Rhythm is like the pulse of the body and draws us away from God.
Basic motivation of music should be spiritual...melody should predominate. Rhythm should be under control.
Music today is fragmented and disjointed and expresses the mind and soul. It is an escape from reality and guilt.
If satan cannot get us to overtly go against God, he will tempt us to get out of balance...espec. in music. Melody in a minor key
produces tension and despair. Music should not be gushy and sentimental. God does not want this! He wants praise and
preciseness. Melody should always be stronger than the rhythm.
Music can call in evil spirits. Wrong music feeds our lower natures. We should always be alert to "Test the spirits to see if they are of God" (I John 4:1). DON'T TAKE SENSUAL MUSIC AND PUT CHRISTIAN WORDS TO IT - 'THE FLESH WARS AGAINST THE SPIRIT...' (Gal. 5:17.
"True worship is acknowldging HIS
worth-ship" - A. Rogers.
A casual, careless attitude towards our HOLY God results in casual, careless worship of Him. It is an erosion of the spirit and an erosion of the church. Chuck Swindoll says spiritual "erosion" is:
-slow
-silent
-sinister
Thus the state of many of our churches today. Sadly, the SBC now seems to be slidding down the slippery slope of the other mainline denominations - choosing the world's strategies instead of
seeking God's will and ways.
"Let the wicked forsake his ways, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God; for He will abundantly pardon. FOR MY THOUGHTS ARE NOT YOUR THOUGHTS, NEITHER ARE YOUR WAYS MY WAYS, SAITH THE LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."
(Isaiah 55:7-9).
larry,
Now that you mention stoning...
Ex19: 12"You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, 'Beware that you do not go up on the mountain or touch the border of it; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death.
13'No hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot through; whether beast or man, he shall not live ' When the ram's horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain.
..........
Ex 19:18Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the LORD descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently.
19When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder.
20The LORD came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the LORD called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up.
21Then the LORD spoke to Moses, "Go down, warn the people, so that they do not break through to the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish.
So to answer your question, no, not like Saul while they stone a righteous man. To capture my intent with the holding coats statement you have to view me more as Ezekiel saying "I told you so, but if you insist on killing yourself by going up there with that kind of attitude, I will hold your coat while you do" .....It is the "blood on your hands" thing that concerns me....EZ 18,3,33
Having said that, if you read my posts at 10:04 and 9:49 I do think that access is made possable by the work Jesus did on the cross. IF we are in Christ and Christ is in us we will have access to God. For what ever it is worth, I read NOTHING about Christ having an attitude of casualness (high fives) when he was talking to God. So if my access is through Jesus, in Jesus, I think it will be LIKE Jesus when he aproached God.
I am not sure my little finite mind will ever understand it while I walk this earth. But I think that casualness or lack of reverence to the Holy God is what drives us as a nation and people to commit the same error as Israel did with the same results. We get to thinking we are special and safe. We elevate ourselves to a point that we are capable of just walking up and high fiving Him. We forget all about becoming Holy and being sanctified by Christ working in us. Much like offering strange fire before the Lord....we want to do it our way...
Astounded,
I am with you. Not inferring anything, put your stinger up. The way I read the responses, you appeared to support the high five statement. Obviously I was wrong. I apologize and ask for your forgiveness.
Nass, you are starting to sound like one of the Waltons, must me that northern air... :)
There you go again, Larry.
WHY would you say what you said to EZ????
so sorry,EZ.
I THINK maybe the way we have portrayed Jesus in our little plays and drama...
or because we think of Jesus while He was on earth going to weddings and being "fun" and regular.....
maybe that's where the confusion comes in about our "equalness"...for lack of a better word.
Jesus is no longer the "man" walking among us on earth. He sits at the right hand of God the Father.....
I can only find worship and honor of God the Father and Jesus who is God....
can't find the cool dude our minds and man made little dramas want to make HIM.
EZ...I'll be on my face with you singing
HOLY, HOLY, HOLY!!!!!!
Lin and OC,
I support your position for standing, bowing, trembling in awe of God. But I don't think our personal, intimate relationship with God ends there.
But then again, Lin, it seems you want to use the larger number of scripture at the expense of the fewer passages of scripture. Personally, I will leave them as a portrait of of God's picture of Himself to us and each color (no matter how often - great or small - the color used) is vital to the whole.
What do you do with all those other passages (though small in number, in comparison)? Discard them?
OC,
I have asked once already, please do not put words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say we could become equal with God. You can read better than this, I hope.
I am a friend of God, without a box for Him to fit into.
Try it, you will like it.
lin said...
The ONLY office (if that Word is even in the original Greek which is debated) I see is of "Bishop/Elder/Overseer'
JTB: You answered your own question.
Be careful of "playing with the greek".
lin said...
(I know it is radical...but so was Jesus Christ and that is why the Pharisees hated Him
JTB:
If you think that the role of pastor isn't in the bible, then your more radical than biblical.
delivered said...
" I am NOT boasting by proclaiming to be significant. It would be sinful for me to boast that, since I am significant to God, I am therefore on an equal level with God."
Agreed...
We are significant because of who we are in Christ Jesus. He is the significant One and we are only worthy by His Blood.
One thing that I have noticed about those that remain at BBC, they are the ones that are emotional in their feelings of self worth, especially in their ideas of worship. Although there are still those who are struggling to stay, in the end, the Lord will show them a better place.
The "I" in the worship at BBC, has nothing to do with the great "I AM", hence their self worth is based on an emotional response to the feelings of the moment. If the worship were based on the Word, the place would be totally empty.
32yrs wrote:
"Melody in a minor key
produces tension and despair."
Are you saying we should abandon hymns in minor keys? If that's the case we'd have to tear Wayfaring Stranger, O Sacred Head, Now Wounded, and What Child is This, among others, out of the hymnal.
A hymnal, for those of you under the age of 30, is a thick book of printed hymns (music and words) that was formerly used in churches for congregational singing. They still have them at Bellevue -- thick, gray books in racks on the backs of the seats that today are only used as (1) portable writing desks and (2) place holders for reserving seat(s) in the auditorium.
One meaning of the word significant is "important". I guess that is what I had in mind with the 8:49 PM post.
gmommy,
Thanks for your concern but don't fret about me. Don't forget EZ 3:9....I just hope He finishes me as well as He did Saul....
larry has a point. I do tend to come across as "legalistic".
larry,
Maybe you can help me with a struggle that I am having. If, as scripture tells us, that we must die to our flesh so that it is no longer I that live but Jesus in me....will the Jesus that lives in me fulfill the law?
We all know that Jesus fulfilled the law and we are free from it. Galatians. But, if I am dead to myself and Jesus lives in me, will He fulfill the law through me?
If we simply say that Jesus fulfilled the law once and for all, that we are not under the law anymore, why does Jesus write His commandments and statutes on my heart? (Hebrews 8:10-13)To fulfill the law?
DBG, I would be interested in your reply as well. I like your post this am! I am with you.
repost my comment...
"If the worship were based on the Word, the place would be totally empty."
Clarification: If the congregation realized that the worhip services were not based on the Word (especially in context), the place would be empty. Of course if SG were the morally upstanding, educated, annointed, God called preacher he claims to be, the place would be packed every service.
gmommy,
I really don't understand why my posts are so offensive to you. I usually won't even post unless I see a chance for people to be misled by false information.
Ezekiel put words into my mouth about the 'high five' line, and I simply asked him a fair question in return. I assumed he was trying to generate discussion, so I didn't take it personally.
As someone else pointed out, Saul was guilty by association of those who stoned Stephen. Why would he offer to hold coats if he wasn't agreeing with what was being done?
Frankly, I'm turned off by this false humility everyone is claiming. I don't care if somebody can fall on their face better than me or not, that doesn't mean one thing to God. The very notion makes me think of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector.
Sinful men fall on their faces before the Lord because of what they are - sinful. It's as natural as water flowing downhill. In heaven that will have changed. God won't change, but we will. There will be no sin, no guilt, and no shame. There will be nothing but pure, unhindered worship of the Lord in the beauty of his holiness.
Worship in heaven will be very different (and better) than worship on earth. We've been given only a tiny glimpse of what it will be like.
Bottom line...
"Hive-fivers" or "bowers," however you choose to think of it now... it's not a contest!
Somehow I think we'll all instinctively know what to do when the time comes, don't you? IMO it's not something to get your knickers in a knot over right now.
Larry,
I believe statements like this are what "gmommy" is referring to...
"Will you hold coats like Saul held the coats of those who stoned Stephen?"
I, too, found that somewhat offensive... if I was reading it correctly.
On the subject of music, I came across an article in the McFarlin UMC (Norman, OK) newsletter by someone named Perry, probably their minister of music. This is an excerpt:
I recently read an article on enlivening our worship experiences. One of the things that the author stated as that we should avoid singing hymns in minor keys. After all, life is lived in a "major key" and people need to be uplifted when they come to church. That is difficult advice for a musician to heed since so much of the world's great music is in "a minor key." In the past two weeks I sang for two funerals, was aware of the terminal illnesses of several of our parishioners, will soon celebrate the first anniversary of my own father's death, have witnessed the senseless bloodshed of all parties in Iraq, saw countless people come to the front desk of our church to seek assistance and to ask for food.... Life is lived "in a major key"? Maybe what we want is escapism rather than solace from the reality of life.
And this:
We sometimes have to sing in a minor key so that the joy of the major keys is truly experienced. Without the crucifixion there would be no resurrection!
Speaking of unused song books in most churches today, the best way to solve that problem is to get rid of the TV cameras and the large tv screens and get back to basics. And yes, we can sing properly sitting down provided the music leader knows how to lead the congregation.
Does anyone know where that shoe may fit?
larry,
"Why would he offer to hold coats if he wasn't agreeing with what was being done?"
I think that I made this clear in my earlier post this morning but it seems you are intent on "putting words in my mouth". Maybe you should be as agressive policing your own comments for accuracy as you are others.
Why the snark today? You seem pretty snippy and that is unusual for you. Judging me as being falsely humble is a bit out of character as well. Anything we can help with?
Ezekiel,
That is not an easy question, and you'll get a different answer from everyone you ask.
To the best of my understanding, the Mosaic law was given to Israel to distinguish them from those who were not God's people. It was never meant to be a way of salvation, and Paul was very clear that no law (not God's and certainly not man's) could acheive salvation. Obedience to God's precepts resulted in behavior that identified believers.
Christ fulfilled the law of Moses, as you said, and we are free from its curse. Sometimes you'll hear Bible teachers make a distinction between 'moral' and 'ceremonial' law, and it was the ceremonial law that was abolished while the civil law remains in effect. I don't think that's what the Bible teaches, though.
The law being 'written on our hearts' suggests to me that it's now an internal distinction that sets us apart from unbelievers.
This changed heart will result in changed behavior that (although not under the law) is consistent with the law. It should never be in opposition to it.
JMO
Nass,
I've always heard that if two or more people call me a donkey I should get myself a bridle. I certainly didn't intentionally mean to irritate or annoy anyone. I hope that ez, gm, and others will forgive me.
ezekiel,
I'm starting to think maybe you really are a prophet. Yes, I have been upset. Last night I went to the evening service at Bellevue and it was very difficult for me. It was heartbreaking to see what the place was like. Other than the friend I went with I didn't see one member I knew. JP led the 'worship' music and did his 'you aren't singing good enough' act again, and the drums were so loud that I couldn't even hear the piano.
I'm seeking God's will today about whether it's time for me to finally make my break with BBC, so I do covet your prayers.
In the meantime, I'll put myself on timeout.
:-)
NASS said....
They still have them at Bellevue -- thick, gray books in racks on the backs of the seats that today are only used as (1) portable writing desks and (2) place holders for reserving seat(s) in the auditorium.
12:21 PM, September 27, 2007
JTB: Number 2 use for the hymnals is no longer practiced. Plenty of seats to go around!
Well, jtb... I was thinking that, but I wasn't going to say it. However, now that you did, you're right, of course. Sadly, there's no longer any need to get there early to stake out your territory.
You know, I bet there are plenty of small or new churches or missions that would love to have those hymnals. I don't understand why BBC doesn't donate them to someone who would appreciate and use them. As it is, they're just collecting dust.
larry,
I agree with you on the law. It seems to me that the more we decrease, the more He increases the more consistent we will be with the law. That law is the 10 commandments among other things (precepts and statutes) but not the levitical/sacrificial law.
I will be praying for you. Not that you go or stay but that you do whatever His will is and that He shows you that will.
I don't know what to tell you about all the memories and all the relationships that have been thrashed. Other than to say that maybe the Lord has stirred things up to remind us that our worship is all about Him and nothing else. I can't understand why all this happened any more than anyone else can. But my heart aches for the folks that needed those relationships...
Peace and Grace, Brother....
Hey, hey, hey,
Well, I thought I was the only bone of contention up in here.
Ok, have you ever been in a workplace where you have to be alongside the same group of nice people everyday and when the going gets tough, y'all work together like a well-oiled machine? Then, if the lull lasts too long after a crisis, people start to backbite, argue and form lil confederacies, becoming insulted and irritable, . That's what I remember about working at the CA.
Y'all have been through a maalstrom and this forum has been a lifesaver--a place where you are not alone in your grief; not to mention the confusion regarding how one digests the loss and proceeds with their life.
I sense that most have accepted that Bellevue will not be saved, at least from the course its callous leadership has charted, and, if I may borrow from the ole hymn, it is well with your soul.
You are finding a new church home or know that you will find one. You have cultivated precious relationships that you might not have otherwise; and believe me, the character developed within you, the deepening of your values and faith, will be an everlasting benefit to you and all those you may aid in the future.
I only say all that to ask: if Bellevue is caput, in terms of things like an impartial investigation, appropriate consequences or reconciliation, what could this blog recognize as a new challenge that will instill a renewed sense of purpose and fellowship with one another.
May I offer a thought for your valued prayers? The junta in Myanmar is beating monks to death and gunning them down in Burma, as well as opening automatic weapons upon protesters of the government there. They are raiding monesteries and murdering folks that have taken a vow of nonviolence and generating compassion, even for their oppressors.
They are doing this as we speak.
MOM4 said...
repost my comment...
"If the worship were based on the Word, the place would be totally empty."
Clarification: If the congregation realized that the worhip services were not based on the Word (especially in context), the place would be empty.
The word "realized" is key here. I made the same point, only I outright said that they were some who were ignorant and someone had a cow.
I know you said it with more grace. I agree with you to some extent. Unfortunately, I think there are those at BBC who aren't exactly ignorant of the fact that SG twists the Bible. I think they know it but don't care and/or don't think it's that big of a deal, which is almost worse than ignorance. They think he's the best thing since sliced bread and they are willing to overlook all of his nonsense, no matter how grave.
This is sad to me.
Larry wrote:
"I've always heard that if two or more people call me a donkey I should get myself a bridle. I certainly didn't intentionally mean to irritate or annoy anyone. I hope that ez, gm, and others will forgive me."
You are forgiven, Larry. And in honor of the occasion, I hereby award you (all in good fun), the first Golden Tail Award for... well... you get the idea.
"What do you do with all those other passages (though small in number, in comparison)? Discard them?"
I take them ALL into consideration. I try not to pick out the ones that I think sound good. Scripture does not contradict itself. It must be taken in totality.
"If you think that the role of pastor isn't in the bible, then your more radical than biblical."
Our models in scripture are more functional than 'positional'. We, unfortuantly, have elevated them above the other functions in the Body.
Where in the NT is a pulpit where ONE guy teaches?
(Some think the pulpit came when the church was married to the state and a lecturn or pulpit was used by the Greeks in pagan worship)
We see Paul preaching more outside the church! What goes on inside the NT church? Paul gives us a clue in 1 Corinthians which looks nothing like what we see today.
By using the term office, it seems as if some are putting a barrier between the whole Body and Christ. There is no barrier. No earthly priests. No chain of command. There is only a Holy Priesthood with different giftings. The guy teaching is only going to be judged more closely.
The elder is simply someone mature in the faith. A servant. It is not a lofty position.
"Frankly, I'm turned off by this false humility everyone is claiming. I don't care if somebody can fall on their face better than me or not, that doesn't mean one thing to God. The very notion makes me think of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector."
Ouch! Retract your claws, buddy! This all came up because one commenter said he was going to high five God. (It ain't false humility...it is fear for someone who thinks that way!)
Some of us were showing where scripture paints a much different picture.
And that is the ONLY box we have for God: Scripture.
Wow, thanks NASS!
It'll look GREAT over my fireplace.
(I'm not quite sure where I'll put the bridle, though...)
I've been thinking about a Wednesday night service about 10 years ago.
Dr. Rogers was moving to the house in Lakeland, and had missed the previous Wednesday. This particular Wednesday was a hard one for him, because his father had passed away unexpectedly that morning. In spite of that he came and preached, and he told us that he would rather be with his family (us) that night than anywhere else.
I remember Jim led us as we sang 'Heaven Came Down' and 'Victory in Jesus' with the only accompaniment coming from Ms. Lafferty on the piano.
God has blessed us richly at Bellevue, with a pastor who truly loved us and knew how to show it and also with music that just might have been a little preview of what the singing in Heaven is like.
Even though those days are past, we still have our memories and the assurance that God has plans for all of us. I've been blessed through the ministries of Bellevue, and I hope to be able to carry those blessings elsewhere.
nbbcof and larry,
Well, don't you suppose that most folks have been deserving of this award at one time or another? Seriously.
Now...with that said. Nbbcof...WHERE do you come up with this stuff??????
Ima
Larry wrote:
"(I'm not quite sure where I'll put the bridle, though...)"
Well... never mind.
Speaking of bridles, I've got a new blue one to match my new outfit. Here I am modeling them. (Boy, it's hot in Minnesota this time of year!)
bbc 11yrs said:
"I have asked once already, please do not put words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say we could become equal with God. You can read better than this, I hope."
oc says:
Like you read the hundred or so
'anti high fivin' references lin gave you? After you read all those, and you still think you want to 'high five' the Almighty, then we'll talk about reading comprehension.
Just sayin'.
oc.
lin:
Ouch! Retract your claws, buddy!
Too late, lin. The claws already got clipped.
:-)
ima,
I was first!
Nass,
Uhhhh, no comment!
nass,
You're in rare form tonight!
Well guys, I'm heading off to bed really early tonight (long day).
It's such a shame we never all knew each other when we were at Bellevue (or elsewhere). It's good to know I can act like a jerk and not be condemned for it. Just let me know a little sooner next time!
;-)
Night, all.
"It's good to know I can act like a jerk and not be condemned for it. Just let me know a little sooner next time!"
Larry, Join the jerk club. I am their Queen.
Nass, can you find a jerk in a tiara?
Sure, Lin. Okay, everyone. Please forgive me in advance for this.
NASS!! You have outdone yourself on this one......
I am only a lady in waiting...she is the REAL queen.
Nass said:
Sure, Lin. Okay, everyone. Please forgive me in advance for this.
8:54 PM, September 27, 2007
oc says:
No forgiveness for that. Recognized your wife right away...East Grand Forks Pork Festival Queen...How many times in a row did your wife win that?....
Stay in Minnesota NASS. But move to North Dakota if people get prettier in your town.....
You need extra blessings, your wife is not very ...uh.... so ......uh.......attractive, so to speak. North Dakota should be looking good to you by now. After that, Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan.
Just sayin'.
oc.
:)
Where is Dr. Loney?
Paging Dr. Bill Loney.....
Ezekiel said...
Maybe you can help me with a struggle that I am having. If, as scripture tells us, that we must die to our flesh so that it is no longer I that live but Jesus in me....will the Jesus that lives in me fulfill the law?
We all know that Jesus fulfilled the law and we are free from it. Galatians. But, if I am dead to myself and Jesus lives in me, will He fulfill the law through me?
If we simply say that Jesus fulfilled the law once and for all, that we are not under the law anymore, why does Jesus write His commandments and statutes on my heart? (Hebrews 8:10-13)To fulfill the law?
DBG, I would be interested in your reply as well. I like your post this am! I am with you.
I think it is clear that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law. Larry mentioned both ceremonial and moral law and the teachings of many who believe Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law while the moral law is still in effect. I believe that Jesus fulfilled both and I think the NT supports this.
Matthew 22
34But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together.
35One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,
36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38"This is the great and foremost commandment.
39"The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
While Jesus fulfilled all of Mosaic law, He did replace (or maybe paraphrase?) it with the above. I think Hebrews 8 refers to the above, and the commandments and statutes written on your heart are those in Matthew 22. I John 3 also refers to these Jesus-inspired commandments.
23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
These are the commandments that we, as believers are to follow.
Jesus does not need to fulfill the law through us. He accomplished this. He became the sacraficial lamb thus voiding the need for sacrafices. He is our high priest thus eliminating the need for the Mosaic priesthood and a Holy of Holies.
Even though Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law, doesn't the 2 great commandments that Jesus spelled out in Matthew 22 encompass the totality of the Mosaic moral law (Ten Commandments)? I think it does.
As you know from our earlier discussions I am very simplistic in my views of Jesus and salvation. If Jesus said it and I live by it, He is pleased.
I am an easy believist and do not apologize for it.
Beautiful day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it....
Just sayin'.
oc.
The chief end of man is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever. -Westminster Confession.
My soul waits in silence for God only; From Him is my salvation.
Psalm 62:1.
1 Samuel 16:7.
But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
oc says. hmmmm.
Just sayin'.
I saw the picture Nass. Besides the sheer disgust, I keep getting the image of the heard of swine who would rather drown themselves. ;p
housewife,
Would that be the 7:39 p.m. or the 8:54 p.m. photo?
8:54, Queen Evil. Sorry, I should have specified but I thought it would be obvious. Hee hee.
Housewife.
Be easy on NASS's wife.
Just sayin'.
oc. :)
I want to tell ya'll something remarkable that has happened this week at Faith Baptist.
I have a friend who's child has been sick and having some physical problems that the doctors have not yet been able to " fix".
Anyway, my friend had her child at the ER one day this week, and guess who came to see them there?
Bro. Terry, the choir director...He came there to check on them...
And then, if that wasn't remarkable enough, the next day, Bro. Danny CALLED her at home to check on her child....
These men have the heart of a pastor....Can you imagine SG doing anyting like this? He doesn't meet with his sheep, he's much too busy and too important.
Bro. Danny makes a fraction of what SG makes..and yet, he has time for this family, who has not yet even joined the church!!
Praise God for men like Bro. Danny and Bro. Terry!! Praise God for Faith Baptist Church, where wounded sheep can receive spiritual healing.
SOTL.
It's the heart. Not the bucks. Ain't it great?
Praise God.
BTW.
It's sad that you feel that is remarkable.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Sad also that I don't trust it.
sorry SOTL...love you and glad you are glad.
I just wonder if it is safe or even appropriate anymore to look to ministers and pastors to care.
Aren't they just doing a job???
I'm negative Nellie.....I think forever this time.
gmommy,
Have faith. There are those who still live for the Lord. Trust me, there are those who are sold out to Jesus, not a job.
Keep the faith.
oc.
deliveredbygrace,
What I had in mind when talking about fulfilling the law through us was..
Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[b]
And...
Romans 2:13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
And...
Romans 3:31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Then...
Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Then throw in a little Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
In fact all of Romans 6....
Obeying the gospel is beginning to look like it is just as hard to do as it was for the Jews to obey the Law....Can it be done? Or is it just the NT duplication of the OT Law. That by the Gospel comes the knowledge of sin?
Easy believism? What is "easy" about obeying the commandments to love one another....when it goes against our sinful nature. Paul..."I do that that I would not do...but do not do that that I would do".....
I am drowning...somebody throw me a rope!
SOTL said: "Can you imagine SG doing anyting like this?"
Reply:
Absolutely. And I don't have to imagine it. A while back, word got to brother Steve that there was a lady in the hospital who watches BBC's service on TV and she especially liked it when he sings. It was suggested that maybe he could call her and minister to her on the phone.
Instead, he went to meet with her in the hospital to minister to her, pray for her, and he even brought his guitar and played and sang for her.
Ez,
Throw in some narrow gate, too. What does it mean 'few' will find it when we see that He is talking to followers and then just a few verses later says, "Depart from me, I never knew you"?
"Perhaps" now that we've made our profile visible, we could settle on one screen name and stick with it, hmmm?
Just sayin'.
Barn,
Too bad Steve didn't care more for those at BBC that were hurt and needed to be ministered to.
A LOT easier to go visit someone who watches him on TV and likes his singing.
I'm sure he couldn't pass up a drama opportunity....will it be on the next TV commercial??? Will the wife be smiling by his side?????
BBC sure does need alot of advertising and marketing these days....or does Steve just love the spotlight?
free tip....get a new wardrobe consultant for the next commercial.
EZ,
you don't need a rope.
Yeah, oc. But if that's Nass' wife, that means Nass is Bill. I need some Pepto now. Thanks. =/
gmommy said...
free tip....get a new wardrobe consultant for the next commercial.
12:24 AM, September 29, 2007
...and a new hair stylist. It's like we're going for the tower of Babel there.
housewife wrote,
"But if that's Nass' wife, that means Nass is Bill. I need some Pepto now."
So does NASS.
Good night Billary I mean , Bill , er...uh....I mean ...NASS. :)
Good morning, old coot!
Gee, good morning to you too. :)
delivered by grace,
I forgot last night to thank you for the Mat 22 references and your post. I had not put the emphasis on them that you did.
Looking at these in the light of what we know to be true, that it is not our works but Him working through us, what does it really say about us if we are not obeying these two commandments?
Psalm 1
The Way of the Righteous and the End of the Ungodly
1 Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He shall be like a tree
Planted by the rivers of water,
That brings forth its fruit in its season,
Whose leaf also shall not wither;
And whatever he does shall prosper.
4 The ungodly are not so,
But are like the chaff which the wind drives away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the ungodly shall perish.
I am beginning to see how one can meditate on it day and night...always testing our actions and motives against Mat 22. Loving God and loving others.
Thanks again for your post.
lin,
I know a fellow that tells me "Paul, Paul, much study will make you mad".
Beginning to look that way. I think that happens when we try to get our finite minds around the Infinite God.
I have heard that in Texas they say that "old coot" is a term of endearment....
Just sayin
EZ,
Not necessarily.
Awwww. NASS! :(
EZ wrote:
"I have heard that in Texas they say that 'old coot' is a term of endearment...."
I guess it all depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.
LOL! NASS, you are a hoot!
(Not to be confused with a coot).
Psssst, NASS, your politics are showing. 8^)
Shifting gears now:
You know, having left BBC after 25 plus years of membership, it is nearly impossible to go to the mall or the grocery without meeting up with someone from "the past." If BBC was the common denominator in the acquaintance, there is that awkward "elephant in the room" that must be acknowledged; "Are you still at Bellevue?"
I am continually shocked and amazed when Christian friends tell me things like, "Well, we are staying for the family programs and activities," or "I have visited this place, and the seating isn't comfortable," or "our children have friends at BBC," or the well worn "I am being fed." (fed what, I wonder) The reasons are varied and plentiful.
What I am not hearing are these reasons: "I am staying because I am growing in the Word" or "I am staying because I see people being won to Christ and I want to be a part of that," or I am staying because this church is on fire for Jesus," or "I am staying because this is where the Holy Spirit bears witness with my Spirit."
I guess it is a matter of priorities. Is that right?
According to the Bellevue bulletin,Steve's son is gonna speak at the Wednesday Night service.
::coughs::nepotism::coughs::
Well... I asked for a rope and got one in my daily reading......
Deut 30:11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.
So it appears that this passage, Deut 30 is consistant with the New Covenant in Heb 8. So it boils down to obeying the commandments in Mat 22:37,39.....whereby all the law is fulfilled and we do these because they are written on our heart, and performed by the Holy Spirit within us.
Churchmouse,
The food was better in Egypt and Israel was willing to return there, even though it meant returning to captivity.
Then later, Deut 29:68 tells us that God go so angry that He crushed Egypt and Isreal could not return if they wanted to.
The responses you are getting point to a people that are in Egypt so to speak. In bondage to a man and a building, willing to accept that bondage..
The people from Israel that went to Egypt after Jerusalem was crushed were still God's people...
He is a patient God. He will accomlish His will
Lynn said...
According to the Bellevue bulletin,Steve's son is gonna speak at the Wednesday Night service.
Poor Steve. He sacrificed preaching on Wednesday nights to spend time with his family, only to have his son choose to spend the time preaching at church. Where did he go wrong to have his child end up with such strange priorities?
Thanks Ezekiel, I have been perplexed by the "blindness" of some of my Christian friends and neighbors. I guess they have what is most important to them. That makes me sad.
Junk wrote:
Lynn said...
According to the Bellevue bulletin,Steve's son is gonna speak at the Wednesday Night service.
Poor Steve. He sacrificed preaching on Wednesday nights to spend time with his family, only to have his son choose to spend the time preaching at church. Where did he go wrong to have his child end up with such strange priorities?
oc says:
Junk, you bad. :)
Just sayin'.
Churchmouse.
Some people will 'settle'
for less than God's best, especially if it's 'comfortable'.
Just sayin'.
oc.
To Churchmouse---About those who are staying; Some are afraid to leave, others are afraid to stay. Some members won't LISTEN; still others don't want the ECS crowd "mad" at them. There are those who hate to admit they were wrong. But, after the cruel treatment of Mrs. Joyce, I will NEVER step foot in BBC again. And you know what? I KNOW why she won't talk. SHE IS WAITING ON THE LORD to handle this. The fact that we can feel this strongly about ANYTHING and yet HIDE our identities, simply means BBC is being controlled and held on to by intimidation. IT ISNT THAT DEEP or complicated.
I believe God will DEAL with the people who have done this to BBC. PERIOD. Thanks for letting me pop in...and P.S. Apparently if you BLOG about Bellevue on ANY blog but THIS ONE, well thats okay, ONLY this blog has the so called cowards.
I WISH all the people who check in to see if he is LEAVING yet would step up. NOBODY leaves BBC because they are mean or stupid or cowardly. THEY LEAVE because it is a painful, negative place to be. GOD BLESS EVERY OE OF YOU!
stopthemadness said:
"NOBODY leaves BBC because they are mean or stupid or cowardly. THEY LEAVE because it is a painful, negative place to be. GOD BLESS EVERY OE OF YOU!"
Reply: And God Bless YOU!
Somebody tell us about Steve Gaines' son. His age, etc. No opinions on personality necessary. I'm not looking for that. Just something about him. Thanks...
ima,
He's 24 years old, a graduate of Union University, married, and I think he's currently in seminary. (Someone help me out with where.)
This is a photo of him in college (on the left) getting down and dirty. He looks a lot like his dad.
NBBCOF...thanks. He does look like his dad. Has he been called into the ministry?
As an aside, it surely is comforting to know that our universities are educating our young people so well. I guess this is Mud Wrestling 101? Wonder if this falls under entertainment or physical fitness...
ima,
I think that was entertainment. Not my idea of entertainment, but to each his own. I liked the name -- "Mudnight Madness."
I hope Grant's "talk" is a freebie. I figure that what BBC pays Steve already should cover pretty much everyone in his family who wants to "talk" or preach, and then some.
gmommy said...
gmommy and housewife,
"free tip....get a new wardrobe consultant for the next commercial.
12:24 AM, September 29, 2007
...and a new hair stylist. It's like we're going for the tower of Babel there."
Well, I am glad you said it! I have been thinking of posting about the "big hair" look for some time. Don't they know that it went out with the 80's - like "far out dude"....they ain't in the sticks anymore...somebody needs to tell 'em!
OOPS, I think we just did!
Union is a great school and I'm sure this was a fun activity. However, if I read that right, I'm kinda worried about him going into the ministry. I pray for him it is a calling not a career.
For any of you who have (or have not) been following the life of Copeland Farley (linked to Angie blog) you might want to take a look. It will reenergize your faith and make you look towards heaven. The video is astounding.
http://conorbootheandgirls.blogspot.com/2007/09/home_30.html
I just posted this on Mike Bratton's blog and I thought I'd copy it here:
I want to thank those of you who wrote to me after I posted about my dad. Two people in particular who I've gone "toe to toe" with on the whole BBC "thing" emailed me personally. That to me is the church - it don't matter what building you enter on Sunday/Wednesday; it's how to minister to your fellow Christians and non-Christians throughout the week. I was really blessed by these two and we are totally on opposite "sides" (I hate that word, but you know what I mean), but as soon as I asked for prayer, it was circle the wagons and Katie, bar the door because I truly felt rallied behind and supported. I know we all have our differences, but when a member of the family of God asks for support and prayer, the rest of the family really responds. They did in my case. So thanks.
Dad goes in Baptist East at 6:00 am on Wednesday - if you're up, say a prayer. Thanks!
Karen
When I went to Union, we would have sorority/fraternity "foot functions" at the local skating rink. You know, us Baptists don't dance. Well, not when the faculty was watching! ;)
Union used to be very liberal in their Bible teaching, but over the years has gotten more conservative. I had a great time at Union - cleanf(notwithstanding the "Mudnight Madness" of course!) Christian fun, but remember, there is a structure in the middle of the "commons" called the Sugar Shack. It never had any lights in it - wink, wink!
New BBC Open Forum said...
He's 24 years old, a graduate of Union University, married, and I think he's currently in seminary. (Someone help me out with where.)
If I were a betting man, I'd wager on Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Over the years I've noticed the interesting phenomenon of how many sons of preachers feel called to minintry and to attend the same college and seminary as Dad.
Just guessin'.
NASS wrote:
"I liked the name -- 'Mudnight Madness.'"
Of course, I liked the actual name better -- "Midnight Mudness." ;-)
In 1975-76, at my Baptist college we had "mixers" -- we did the "Hustle" mix and the "roller coaster" mix -- but we didn't dance. Every self-respecting Baptist knows you can't have a dancing foot and a praying knee on the same leg. Also, our mixers were held off-campus, never on.
Grant Gaines attends Southern Seminary in Louisville, KY.
Steve Gaines this morning did one of the most arrogant grievous things from the pulpit I've ever seen.
Opening the service in prayer is a good idea if you are genuine about what you are doing.
He opened in prayer and had Michael Fields sing "Sweet Hour of Prayer."
It was supposed to be a Holy time of prayer, a sweet time of prayer, and a very reverent time of prayer. The moment Michael Fields finished singing "Sweet Hour of Prayer" Bro. Steve said, "Wow, Michael, you've got to do a CD."
I don't think Steve had his mind on prayer. His mind constantly thinks of money, fortune, and opportunity. This shameful act this morning must have turned the heads of even his most ardent supporters. The service went from thoughts on prayer to Michael making a CD. Perhaps Bro. Steve can be his agent.
He followed it up with a sermon from 1 Samuel on Eli and his two sons. If I didn't know any better, I thought he was preaching about the unholy things that the priests of Bellevue are committing. Eli and his sons paid a dear price for seeking money and opportunity inside the temple. Steve, you are doing the same thing. Your salary is 10 times what the average member of Bellevue makes and you dare preach a sermon about Eli and his two sons. You make this salary in secret and think you are too good for the membership to know. Things done in secret will eventually be known.
Please Bellevue leadership, repent from your ways before it's too late. Things are not getting better, they are getting worse and you still continue to dig your heals in.
Thanks, mjm. That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure.
HEY MJM!!!
NIce to see you again!!
Does anyone know the origin of Baptists not dancing?
I've always wondered about that.
maybejustmaybe said...
Grant Gaines attends Southern Seminary in Louisville, KY.
Good thing I'm not a betting man, then. Has anyone told Ms. Billie that her pastor's son is attending that Calvinist school??
junkster said:
Good thing I'm not a betting man, then. Has anyone told Ms. Billie that her pastor's son is attending that Calvinist school??
SOTL replies:
::::::: snickering::::::::
OHHHHHH Missssssss BILLLIEEEE.....
Come out come out wherever you are.
junk wrote:
"Has anyone told Ms. Billie that her pastor's son is attending that Calvinist school??"
Uh... yeah. I believe she already covered that in a December 20th e-mail sent to approximately half of Memphis in which she stated...
"I have questioned the choice of Bro. Steve's son who is attending a Calvinistic based school, but having grown children of my own, I know they do according to their own desires and have to learn from their own choices which are often contrary to the parents views."
Is there any evidence that " those views" are contrary to SG's views?
Just wonderin.
Hey, did anyone else know that Camp Cordova is being sold? In a "leadership" meeting held (coincidentally) at (you guessed it) 2000 Appling, it was voted to sell Camp Cordova. It seems to me as if it was kept very quiet and my heart is just breaking about it. I have the motion and the info, Nass, if you want it scanned and sent to you.
Karen: I will be praying for your Dad on Wednesday. Please keep us posted, okay?
Not that I care for the Term calvinist much...
BUT I'd sure rather sit under the preaching of a reformed minister than a self annointed dictator. JMO
SOTL,
the evidence is in the man centered preaching...and the way he thinks he is the chosen one.
I am just as uncomfortable as many with the "obsessive calvinist" arguments.
But now that I am going to a reformed church....it just isn't the fearful stuff BBC taught me it was and it isn't what our vision friend goes on and on about either.
If SG believed and preached the Bible from a reformed understanding...I don't think he would be such a legend in his own mind...again JMO.
GMommy: Sorry I missed you today at RO...you too, Lilly......I looked for you both.
:)
concerned, I just got around to checking out that website about Copeland. I was going to when you posted it but I was busy and then forgot about it. Anyway, thank you for sharing. That is such a heartbraking story. I wish I had something better to say. I guess sometimes there are no words.
Housewife: You are so right, no words. However, to see a family truly LIVE their faith was such an inspiration. Romans 8:28 aren't just words; they mean something very profound. It's very good to be reminded.
Sorry about the length Nass…I ran a little over my 15 minutes here.
THE NEW COVENANT
Deut 29:12 that you may enter into covenant with the LORD your God, and into His oath, which the LORD your God makes with you today,
WHO DID HE MAKE IT WITH?
Deut 29:14 “I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, 15 but with him who stands here with us today before the LORD our God, as well as with him who is not here with us today
WHY DID HE MAKE IT WITH US?
Deut 29:18 so that there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations, and that there may not be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood; 19 and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates[a] of my heart’—as though the drunkard could be included with the sober.
20 “The LORD would not spare him; for then the anger of the LORD and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the LORD would blot out his name from under heaven. 21 And the LORD would separate him from all the tribes of Israel for adversity, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this Book of the Law,
Deut 32: 32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom And of the fields of Gomorrah; Their grapes are grapes of gall, Their clusters are bitter.
BUT YOU SAY “HOLD ON, THAT IS OT STUFF FOR ISRAEL AND DOES NOT APPLY”
WHO DID HE MAKE THE COVENANT WITH?
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
WHY DID HE MAKE IT?
Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;
12:16 Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
DOES THE COVENANT HAVE FUTURE IMPACT?
Deut 29:22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it;
29:23 [And that] the whole land thereof [is] brimstone, and salt, [and] burning, [that] it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:
29:24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what [meaneth] the heat of this great anger?
29:25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:
29:26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and [whom] he had not given unto them:
29:27 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
29:28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as [it is] this day.
29:29 The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law.
HE KNEW ISRAEL WAS GOING TO GET THE BLESSING AND THE CURSE. AS THE GENTILES, WE ARE GOING TO RECEIVE THE BLESSING AND THE CURSE AS WELL BECAUSE WE DO AS ISRAEL DID.
Deut30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call [them] to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
30:4 If [any] of thine be driven out unto the outmost [parts] of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
30:7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off.
30:12 It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
30:13 Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
30:14 But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
WE SEE THE SAME THING IN THE NT.
Heb 8: 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
More TV spots coming....
Prayer Ministry update.
Has anyone seen any more of the PIT crew cards?
concerned: Yes! Their strength through all of this is inspiring and a wonderful witness. Of course, we know that this strength and grace can only come from Jesus Christ. And although I know there will always be those who deny the blatantly obvious (how else does any parent show any kind of graceful hope at a time like this?), I thank God that their pain is shared by HIM!! Such is their comfort. God bless this family.
Nass, about the cards... Why don't they just make a deck of 52? We already know who's pictures would be on the King and Queen cards. Those promo shots come in handy don't they? Maybe one in his polo? ;P
Think of the fun coming up with who should fill the Jacks and Aces. Who are the ones who usually do the damage control for him? PR Aces up his sleeve?
And of course, the Jokers. Think of the laughs in trying to narrow that group down. Maybe we can make an allowance for for than 2 per deck. =)
Junkster said...
maybejustmaybe said...
Grant Gaines attends Southern Seminary in Louisville, KY.
Good thing I'm not a betting man, then. Has anyone told Ms. Billie that her pastor's son is attending that Calvinist school??
9:15 PM, September 30, 2007
Yes, I know where Grant attends school. I also know children; we have three who are grown. One of our three had a friend who was of another denomination, a Calvinistic, tolerant church known for having, "fun" social drinking was acceptable. College age is a critical age for conservative Christians and prime targets for demons. Our child struggled with the faith for a period of time and our family had some disagreements over what could have created a permanent stronghold in our child's life. God's grace gave our child space to come to realize the truth and today we have one child who is more outspoken on the subject of Calvinism than the other two children because of what was witnessed, first hand.
The outcome could have gone either way!
I do not base my support of Brother Steve on his children's theology; I listen to Brother Steve's teaching and his heart which lines up with God's Word.
Brother Steve is a modern day Paul but we did not recognize it until a group of people placed him on a platform of persecution. God has used what was intended to destroy Brother Steve to show us and the entire Baptist Association what a blessing He has given to us.
If any of you have not heard yesterday's sermon please do. God was all over our Pastor and the Word that came out of his mouth was greatly annointed with the power of Dr. R G Lee's "Pay Day Some Day" What a wonderful day we had!!!!
My heart, our hearts are saddened over the great blessing that some of you have chosen not receive. Our Pastor teaches us to pray for you and regardless of what any of you may believe, I do pray for you to come to the knowledge of the Truth and choose to come back and unite with us as move on toward the coming of our Savior
Billie
fog wrote:
"He followed it up with a sermon from 1 Samuel on Eli and his two sons."
When was this? I've looked back through the sermon notes for the past four months, and at no time do I see where SG preached from I Samuel.
"Brother Steve is a modern day Paul"
Please, God, open their eyes to see the truth.
Billie,
Yesterday's sermon was a good sermon about sin in America and our need to turn back to God.
I can turn on my tv and hear a lot of wonderful messages that are dead on. The problem is there are a lot of men who are saying one thing and living a different life. Is it any wonder people ridicule the hypocrisy inside the church?
I would be very careful suggesting Steve Gaines is like Paul. I don't think Paul went around breaking the law and taking huge sums of money from the church behind closed doors. If you agree that a pastor can command a huge salary 10 times what the average household of the church makes, then go ahead. I do not. If he's not ashamed for the members to know, let them know. He can't because it would be an emarassement to not only Bellevue but the SBC.
Your comparison of Steve Gaines to Paul quite frankly makes me sick. You consider Steve getting caught being classified as persecution. Millions of America think the same about Bill Clinton and his wife Hillary. No wonder our nation is in so much trouble.
The following are the main scriptural passages from the Sunday morning sermon Billie is referring to. Does anyone see the irony of them?
Jeremiah 5:
30 "A horrible and shocking thing
has happened in the land:
31 The prophets prophesy lies,
the priests rule by their own authority,
and my people love it this way.
But what will you do in the end?
Jeremiah 23
1 "Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!" declares the LORD.
2 Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: "Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done," declares the LORD.
3 "I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number.
4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing," declares the LORD.
9 Concerning the prophets: My heart is broken within me;
all my bones tremble.
I am like a drunken man, like a man overcome by wine, because of the LORD and his holy words.
10 The land is full of adulterers;
because of the curse , the land lies parched , and the pastures in the desert are withered.
The prophets follow an evil course and use their power unjustly.
11 "Both prophet and priest are godless; even in my temple I find their wickedness," declares the LORD.
12 "Therefore their path will become slippery; they will be banished to darkness and there they will fall.
I will bring disaster on them in the year they are punished," declares the LORD.
Billie said:
Our Pastor teaches us to pray for you and regardless of what any of you may believe, I do pray for you to come to the knowledge of the Truth and choose to come back and unite with us as move on toward the coming of our Savior
SOTL WANTS TO KNOW:
Are you and SG so arrogant as to think that there is no truth outside of BBC? Even IF ( and that's a HUGE "if") you were receiving truth from BBC, there are other places that REALLY do preach TRUTH..without a self serving agenda...I know that's hard to believe...
Are you so arrogant as to think that we cannot wait for our Savior somewhere else other than BBC?
If you are waiting on ME to return to BBC, don't hold your breath. THAT is never going to happen. I have found a church where the pastor actually has a pastor's heart and doesn't make a half a million dollars a year, and has time for his sheep. You have NO idea what you are missing by being at BBC. I praise God EVERY DAY that I am away from there.
I would compare you expecting us to come back to BBC to a wife that has left an abusive husband and has found a man that would be kind to her, and treat her like a lady...Do you think that she would divorce the kind man and remarry the psycho?
The thought of entering the doors of BBC is sickening to me.
Any place where the SS teachers say, " He only did it once" in talking about PW is not a place that I can worship. I do not want to be around people like that.
And let's not forget that my PERSONAL FILE from the counseling office was not kept private from the associate pastor..He kept it on his desk..called me to tell me that he had it on his desk. My husband had to go to HIS office to retrieve it..
And you think that "I" would EVER want to come back to that?
Oh, and please don't pray for me. Take my name off your prayer list.
I want no part of your self serving, hypocritical, condescending, prayers. I have already discussed BBC with The Lord and he agrees with me that is no place for me to be.
billie-billie-billie-It is bad enough to campare SG to Paul but to toss in the name of Dr. R.G. Lee is down right ridiculous. He is not even close to being in the same league with these two gentlemen.
NBBCOF,
Yesterday, he spoke about 1 Samuel and the story of Eli and his two sons. It wasn't the main text but he started the sermon out with the text.
Billie said:
Brother Steve is a modern day Paul but we did not recognize it until a group of people placed him on a platform of persecution. God has used what was intended to destroy Brother Steve to show us and the entire Baptist Association what a blessing He has given to us.
Pass the barf bags please....I feel a sickness coming on!!!!!!!One can easily reconize how BBC is being blessed by all the hugh crowds that are busting the doors down to fill all the empty seats left by all the membership that have walked. Yes and the chior that is packed to capicity every Sunday. Yes BBC is really being blessed by Br. Steve and Donna
Regarding the prayer chapel uses: Miss Higgy says it will be used for "prayer walks". We've had this discussion before, but please enlighten me - why would you need to prayer walk in a prayer chapel unless you were walking a labrynth?
Prayer walking is a new age practice and I am very leery of it.
Prayer walks are literally walking around an area - a church sancturary, SS rooms, nursery - where you pray for that particular part of the church and the people who will be in the sactuary/SS rooms, etc. Or another form of prayer walk is walking around a neighborhood (or similar area), praying for the people that live there.
Not sure BBC knows what kind of worms will crawl out of the "prayer walk" can they seem to be opening.
Question?
What do the staff members of Bellevue do all day long the 4 days of the week that they work?
I'm asking an honest question!
The numbers have plummeted, the programming is way down, the activity from home missions to foreign missions is down 75% from what it used to be, the "Prayer Chapel" was never built, and the numbers of members who are sick are way down because the numbers of members are way down. Most on staff don't ever preach so what exactly are they doing with the 32 hours they work each week Monday thru Thursday? How many staff members activly go out into homes to knock on doors? I don't know of any. Can someone help me?
Let's lay off 50% of the staff since 50% of the church is gone. Why spend the money on staff when it could be given away elsewhere?
”Brother Steve is a modern day Paul but we did not recognize it until a group of people placed him on a platform of persecution."
Poor guy. He is being persecuted all the way to the bank and on Wed nights, too. And, with the book royalties and speaking engagements. Oh and don't forget the cushy new carpet and money making trips to Israel. Yes, it is definitely persecution.
lwood,
PLEASE send the bag down this way !!!
Mary can say what needs to be said with dignity so I won't touch anything Ms. Billie said that caused the need for lwood's bag.
But I do have a question.
WHY does Ms Billie and anyone of like mind NEED a modern day Paul???
Why do we need these visions for a prayer building???
And what in the world does it mean for "God to get all over the pastor and His Word"?????
Where is this nonsense coming from???
Why does Steve need to sit on his self appointed throne in his self annointed.... whatever he told the deacons was dripping down from him?????
Why is he just a regular guy and not to be held to any higher standard because he is a pastor some days
but then a "Billie appointed" modern day Paul or Dr Lee clone another?????
Is God's Word not enough on it's own????
Do the people at BBC so desperately need a pope??????
For people so against "calvanisim"(not my choice of words)
..... this sure is confusing.
just questions.....
Mary said:
Ms Billie, did you ever sit in the old sanctuary downtown and listen to Dr. Lee preach? I did. In fact, the very last time I heard Dr. Lee was when he returned to Bellevue at the request of Dr. Rogers, to once again preach ”Pay Day Some Day”. He was 82 years old and his voice was coarse with the tremor of his advancing years but it once again managed to shake the rafters of that beloved old building. His face appeared weathered and worn; he was an old man but there was no mistaking the Truth of the Word that came forth from his lips and from the depths of his heart for all of Bellevue to hear that day. And there was no mistaking that the Spirit of the Living God was very present. It was a blessing beyond description and one that I will forever cherish. And I can assure you, madam, that any attempt to compare the preaching of Steve Gaines with that of Dr. Lee is an exercise in futility.
-------------------
Mary, I was there too! And it was just as you so eloquently stated. Thank you for reminding me of that sweet memory. Dr. Rogers once said:
"Those of us who have sat at the banquet table can no longer be satisified with the scraps of life." Listening to both Dr. Lee and Dr. Rogers was definitely sitting at the banquet table of preaching.
gmommy said...
For people so against "calvanisim"(not my choice of words)
..... this sure is confusing.
Calvinism bad, Gainesism good. Anyone want to be a Gainesist, like Ms. Billie?
Junkster, I think I'll stick with being a Christian and worshipping my Savior instead of worshipping a man. Thanks anyway.
:-)
Thank you Billie for praying for me. True prayer requires work and even though I disagree with you any one who will truly pray for me is appreciated.
As for truth, all you have to do is go to the Bible as I have said in all of my posts.
Again I ask the question which no one wants to answer who in the Bible would seek to destroy the churh? What reasonable person would recommend a person for pastor who stated he would destroy the church? Answer please. Surely, if you know the truth you can give true Biblical correction.
How can Steve Gaines truthly say he just didn't know how to handle the Paul William's situation even though he knew exactly what to do at Gardendale? Bellevue handled Ministers who commited adultery in a Biblical manner in the past, but somehow the staff forgot what to do.
Spend sometime reading what the church growth movement people are doing. For the most part, churchs are not growing but are being torn into thirds. One third leaves, another third doesn't like whats happening but stay and swallow and follow and the remaining third will not see the problems the changes have brought and blame those who question the precious pastor who assumes the role of innocent victim. Even more unbelievable, members can not leave and go to new churches without being attacked in their new churches. How can such vicious, mean-spirited and unloving people be from God?
Family of friends?
Mary said...
Ms Billie said, in part: ”Brother Steve is a modern day Paul but we did not recognize it until a group of people placed him on a platform of persecution. God has used what was intended to destroy Brother Steve to show us and the entire Baptist Association what a blessing He has given to us.
If any of you have not heard yesterday's sermon please do. God was all over our Pastor and the Word that came out of his mouth was greatly anointed with the power of Dr. R G Lee's "Pay Day Some Day" What a wonderful day we had!!!!”
Mary says:
Ms Billie, you insult our intelligence by coming here and claiming that Steve Gaines is a modern day Paul. That is so absurd that it needs no further comment from me.
But then you attempt to put Steve Gaines’s sermon of yesterday in the same class as Dr. Lee’s incomparable ”Pay Day Some Day.” Ms Billie, you do yourself a disservice by continuing to expose your own lack of discernment.
Before you accuse me of having a mean spirit, let me refer you to the writing of John, the disciple that Jesus loved, who penned these words under the influence of the Holy Spirit: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” (I John 4:1 KJV)
In today’s vernacular, that means to think, to be selective, to pick and choose with great care -- don’t believe everything you hear and never get caught up in feelings. Discernment allows the believer to read between the lines of that which is made visible.
Discernment is our God-given ability to detect and identify the real truth from the counterfeit. Paul wrote that it is a characteristic that accompanies genuine spirituality (I Corinthians 2: 14-16), and the writer of Hebrews calls it a mark of maturity (Hebrews 5: 14). Discernment gives us a proper frame of reference and a distinct separation between good and evil even when the two are packaged alike.
Solomon knew the value of discernment. When God told Solomon to make a wish and it would be granted, do you remember what he wished for? “So give Thy servant an understanding heart to judge Thy people and to discern between good and evil.” (I Kings 3: 9 NASB)
Ms Billie, did you ever sit in the old sanctuary downtown and listen to Dr. Lee preach? I did. In fact, the very last time I heard Dr. Lee was when he returned to Bellevue at the request of Dr. Rogers, to once again preach ”Pay Day Some Day.” He was 82 years old and his voice was coarse with the tremor of his advancing years but it once again managed to shake the rafters of that beloved old building. His face appeared weathered and worn; he was an old man but there was no mistaking the Truth of the Word that came forth from his lips and from the depths of his heart for all of Bellevue to hear that day. And there was no mistaking that the Spirit of the Living God was very present. It was a blessing beyond description and one that I will forever cherish. And I can assure you, madam, that any attempt to compare the preaching of Steve Gaines with that of Dr. Lee is an exercise in futility.
Discernment, Ms Billie! Discernment! I respectfully refer you to Luke 12: 54-57, I Corinthians 2: 12-16, James 1:5 and Psalm 119: 98-100, for starters.
A wise preacher once said that discernment is better caught than taught – those who have the disease are often highly contagious. With all due respect, Ms Billie, my prayer for you is that you catch a good case of it.
Blessings,
Mary
Mary, You are wonderful!
:-)
Billie…Billie…Billie. Goodness gracious. I believe your continuous postings and rants speak volumes for your (lack of) character and who you are. I think that perhaps you probably wear a little golden locket around your neck with an “itty bitty” glossy photo of Steve Gaines. You are…well…you are quite an interesting spokesperson for the Steve Gaines club. Actually, you have helped many people to finally discern that what they once stood for in regards to supporting Steve Gaines and the BBC leadership at all costs is wrong. So, I would encourage you to keep up the rants. Keep up the babbling. Keep up your behavior!
If only we could walk around the “Future Prayer Building” at Bellevue right now. Yes…I can see it now…we could have some nice glossy photos of our staff leaders and lay leaders. Let’s see…we could walk around their photos all day and all night. Oh wait…we would also need to walk around the biggest photo…no…make it a statue…yes…a statue of Steve Gaines!
And, maybe our BBC leaders could kick in a little extra money (I mean a little extra of the BBC tithes), and they could contract with some Disney animators to actually have the bigger-than-life Steve Gaines statue TALK and interact with people. Whoa!!! That’s it!!! The bigger than life Stevezilla could actually interact with the common folk. There could be some pre-programmed recordings. Press 1 for “Just submit. I am the man. I am your leader.” Press 2 for “Welcome to my palace. Some trouble makers call it Bellevue Baptist Church. My followers and I call it Steve’s Place.”
Ok…I feel better getting that off my chest!
facts,
If you'll recall, there was a space designated in the prayer chapel plans for a "sculpture" in the middle of the labyrinth-shaped prayer room. Hmmm....
Hey, NASS?
How about a thread on "What God has done for me" or "What God has taught me today"?
I'm tired of the focus being so... out of focus!
Has God done anything noteworthy yet today? Let's think on these things...
***I ran across this psychotherapy theory many years ago but I think it provides interesting insights. Some theorize that IF you play one position, you will ultimately have to play all three before getting out of it. I think obvious some of the players at BBC use this unwittingly.***
The Drama Triangle
by Steve Karpman with Comments by Patty E. Fleener M.S.W.
Purpose: To promote the life script.
The roles of Persecutor, Rescuer and Victim are portrayed in psychological games.
Serves as a training ground for powerlessness.
Prevents psychological equality in relationships.
Will go on as long as someone is willing to be victimized.
Think if you will about a triangle. On each end are roles that we play in life. One is the persecutor, another is the victim and the last is the rescuer.
**If anyone in this triangle changes roles, the other two roles change as well.
PERSECUTOR - "It's All Your Fault"
Sets strict limits unnecessarily.
Blames
Criticizes
Keeps Victim oppressed
Is mobilized by anger
Rigid, authoritative stance
"Critical" Parent
TO GET OFF THIS TRIANGLE, MOVE TO CLEAR STRUCTURE
VICTIM - "Poor Me"
Feels victimized, oppressed, helpless, hopeless, powerless, ashamed
Looks for a Rescuer that will perpetuate their negative feelings.
If stays in Victim position, will block self from making decisions, solving problems, pleasure and self-understanding.
"Dejected" stance.
TO GET OFF THIS TRIANGLE, MOVE TO PROBLEM SOLVING
RESCUER - "Let Me Help You"
Rescues when really doesn't want to.
Feels guilty if doesn't rescue.
Keeps victim dependent.
Gives permission to fail.
Expects to fail in rescue attempts.
"Marshmallow" Parent
TO GET OFF THIS TRIANGLE, MOVE TO CLEAR NURTURING
TN Lizzie,
Is there enough space on this blog to share what God is doing in our lives?
For me, He is always my strength.
He has used this blog to introduce me to some of the finest Christians, and kindest people, I have ever met.
Look outside! What a GORGEOUS day!
Short answer.....here I sit, working from home, just a single mom, in my own home, with kids at college on 4-year academic scholarships, reliving the wonderful times when I was blessed to home school them all the way through graduation, knowing they will join me in Heaven, having been to church Sunday where I heard the Word preached, praises lifted, and kind words from dear friends......a dear Mother who is also my best friend; God has been gracious and faithful to me.
That wonderful hymn is echoing in my mind......"Count your blessings, count them one by one; Count your blessings, see what God has done; Count your blessings, name them one by one; Count your many blessings see what God has done."
Of course, I still think it's wrong that Camp Cordova is being sold.
Sorry, didn't mean to ruin the atmosphere!
Why is Camp Cordova being sold?
Are they taking the money and buying a piece of property somewhere else further out?
STOPTHEMADNESS said...
AWWWWWWWWWWWWW, it is SO CUTE how Mrs. Bille has a CRUSH on Dr. Gaines, it is precious. She is simply running to defend him. Please go easy on her. Love can be a funny thing. It does make me wonder who she means when she says,"OUR HEARTS ARE SADDENED..." is she speaking (wink wink) for Dr. Gaines perhaps?
6:04 PM, October 01,
Love does make people do funny things!!
I love Donna Gaines and Brother Steve Gaines with the love of Christ and I am not ashamed.
The more I get to know them and their love for Christ the greater my love increases. If you knew them you would love them also and I will also say this: "If you really loved Christ you would also love them"
I am telling you the truth because I love you: Your problem is not Brother Steve your problem is rebellion, refusing to love your brothers and sisters.
Your choice has been to rebel and you are angry because we did not rebel with you. Your defense mechanism is to work and convince the people that you are innocent of rebellion against God by constantly pointing out any and everything negative about the leadership of BBC. Some of you had rather die than admit you are wrong.
How many of you stopped, before you rebeled, long enough to ask God if the changes in Bellevue was His Will for Bellevue? Personally, I do not see evidence that any of you, who are posting against our Pastor, have even considered what the will of God might be. God's will was for BBC to change or otherwise Dr. Rogers would have remained alive and in control. God removed Him!
Running away from Bellevue (or problems) was the easy way out and a test of faith for all of us.
In truth and love I am telling you that weakness in faith does not have to mean failure. We all fail in our faith from time to time and we need to encourage one another to get back on the pathway and walk on in our faith. I have failed in the past and I may fall again but I have learned the importance of getting up, even though it is difficult to swallow the pride.
So many people, weak in faith, say not to bother with trying to reach out to you because you will only attack me and make me look bad. I am not concerned with myself; I am deeply concerned for your spiritual health.
Love causes us to do strange things and so does pain. I cannot forget you and as long as you continue to blog against BBC I know that you are hurting in your spirit. You can mask things and convince some that you are ok but some of us you can not fool and we will continue to pray for you and show you our love and concern.
Billie
Oh, Billie. You've really gone and done it now!
I'd like to urge everyone to respond with the kindness and restraint that BT's last comment doesn't in any way deserve. She's just trying to bait you. I, for one, choose to consider the source and just scroll on by.
Have a nice day, Billie! :-)
New BBC Open Forum said...
Oh, Billie. You've really gone and done it now!
I'd like to urge everyone to respond with the kindness and restraint that BT's last comment doesn't in any way deserve. She's just trying to bait you. I, for one, choose to consider the source and just scroll on by.
Have a nice day, Billie! :-)
JTB: Amen NASS. Please scroll on by folks. Pray for Billie and those following that unfortunate path.
I repeat Nass' statement, Have a nice day Bilie.
Nass: Scrolling, scrolling, scrolling...........
::::: BANGING HEAD ON KEYBOARD::::::
Who wants to tell the folks over at GBC and FBC and Covenant, and First Evan and Grace Evan and River Oaks every other church in the city that their spiritual health is in trouble.
How do I know this? Because Ms. Billie said so!!! Unless you go to BBC and worship at the feet of Jim Jones, oh, wait, it's SG, you are in BIG trouble!!
"Your problem is not Brother Steve your problem is rebellion,......"
Please do not judge this person as they are only parroting what is being said at BBC staff meetings. This word "rebellion" is the attack work used to describe anyone who questions anything inside the walls of BBC.
This word was also spoken in Sunday's message.
Billie,
You had the audacity and insensitivity to write: “God's will was for BBC to change or otherwise Dr. Rogers would have remained alive and in control. God removed Him!”
When Dr. Rogers arrived in 1972 Bellevue was in steady decline, God used him to lead the Church in unprecedented ways, from a membership of 9,000 to nearly 30,000….along the way he, led Bellevue to relocate pay in full for 85 million dollars worth of buildings, develop a World renown ministry, authored numerous books, mentored scores of pastors and oh yea ….led the SBC to return to it conservative roots.
After more than three decades of sterling, scandal free, integrity filled years of service Dr. Rogers retired.
The congregation over a wonderful weekend expressed their love, admiration and heartfelt gratitude for the pastor God sent back in 1972.
And to thank that you “Oh Miss guided one” can dip your pen (Key board) in to callous and derogatory ink and heartlessly write that Dr. Rogers, would still be alive but God removed him is appalling!
You love your current Pastor, good…..but when you make an attempt to denigrate the memory of Dr. Rogers you clearly demonstrate that you are a ill-advised person…..who has no credibility!
Ms. Billie, I think I have a right to respond to your latest ranting. Sorry I hit such a big time NERVE there sister. But your pastor told you guys to stay OFF this blog. Why are you on here butting in about obedience, when it could be causing all of us to stumble? LADY YOU are not supposed to be on here. Your assessment of my faith or love for the Lord means NOTHING to me. Look chick I don't even HATE Steve. I just want to be clear that I am not a regular on this blog and IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT that I got so blunt with you. You ask for it all of the time. These sheep have been beaten to the point that they walk on eggshells around your pompous self rightous self.But you are NOBODY to me BILLIE TAPP.And the reason you pulled out all the stops on that one was you can dish it out but you can't take it can you? So go look up some more stuff to type on here, but remember, you are in DIRECT DISOBEDIENCE to BBC leadership when you log on---didn't read your oath very well or what? And you are OBSESSIVE about Steve Gaines, period. Have a nice day.
How do I know this? Because Ms. Billie said so!!! Unless you go to BBC and worship at the feet of Jim Jones, oh, wait, it's SG, you are in BIG trouble!!
1:33 PM, October 02, 2007
Sickofthelies your above statement confirms the truth of Billie's post. As long as people are posting and expressing their hatred of BBC they are NOT ok in their heart and in deep need of prayer. I want you anti BBC people to learn the joy that comes from loving people in the Spirit of Christ. BBC is filled with joy these days, experiencing a revival. How can you know this? Because of the love of Christ that is growing among the attending members. Dr. Roger's famous words, "Come to Jesus" He is a LOVE worth finding" When each of you find His Love you will love BBC, Brother Steve, Donna and even me.
COME TO JESUS HE IS A JOYWORTHFINDING IN BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH WHERE DR. ADRAIN ROGER'S BEGAN HIS LOVEWORTHFINDING MINISTRY!!!!!!
WOW
!!!!!!!That would be great on a billboard near the three crosses at Bellevue!!!!!!!!!
It's Love Worth Finding with Dr. Adrian Rogers.
Hey Bill, WOE. Are you kidding? Does anyone from BBC Leadership ever read this? I mean Billie Tapp just came out and said what she has been dancing around all along...that Dr. Adrian Pierce Rogers DIED at the hands of GOD for the purpose of Pastor Gaines taking over Bellevue? EXCUSE ME? He was already retired, but that isn't the point. Billie Tapp thinks she can answer "why" when people lose loved ones to cancer?
I am SERIOUSLY PRAYING that nobody in the Rogers family EVER has to know she said that.I am thankful that she has exposed herself for the unstable power seeker she really is, but at the expense of the Rogers? I am stunned at the cruelty of this person. There are no words to say what you have done with the garbage that just spewed out of your mouth.I am not ready to forgive you yet, but I hope you will ask forgiveness from God for speaking for him on such a matter. This is over the top. God have mercy on you.
stop said..."So go look up some more stuff to type on here, but remember, you are in DIRECT DISOBEDIENCE to BBC leadership when you log on---didn't read your oath very well or what?"
Unless the leadership is prompting her to come on here to aggravate us? Some people are easily swayed. (II Timothy 3:6)
Since when did Billie post in the 3rd person?
I have a BIG issue with Dr. Rogers' name and ministry being used to add credibility to the current BBC. If his wife no longer trusts the leadership, I think it's doubtful he would.
Design your own billboard and leave him out of it, please.
Miss Billie, this song's for you:
Roll out the barrel, we'll have a barrel of fun
Roll out the barrel, we've got the blues on the run
Zing boom tararrel, ring out a song of good cheer
Now's the time to roll the barrel, for the gang's all here
Have a nice day!!!!
Stopthemadness,
First I want to say that I have not even seen or read an oath.
The reason I am so vocal against the blogsters on this site is because I agree with my Pastor that people who blog negative, false information for the purpose of destroying the testimony of another Christian is wrong. While I have an opionion of some of the people who are blogging on this site I have NOT made it a practice to call specific names and publically attack the integrity of anyone. I have not even bothered myself to reseach and find out the names of those who choose to hide their identity. Only the ones you refer to as the, "beaten sheep" do that so do not make the mistake of including me as one of them.
The BBC OPEN Forum bloggers are a completely seperate organized group who are known to filter out most everyone who disagrees with their slander.
I do not feel that I have disobeyed the request of my pastor in my attempt to reach out to all who participate or come here to read this blog site. I perceived the message, "If you are rebelling against authority and participating in blogging against the administration of BBC, Stop It!
I am in NO way participating in blogging against the authority of BBC. I fully support our church and our pastor and I believe that God would have me to do what I am doing. I do not call myself beating up anyone but apparently that accusation is one of the defense mechanisms used to keep hearts closed to the truth and from having to take responsibility.
This blog site has become a perpetrator of forgiveness, it builds up resentment and bitterness and distorts facts until it causes confusion for the purpose of destroying the leadership of BBC.
If I have perceived the message of my pastor wrong then I am guilty as charged out of a heart intended for good and I pray for God's grace to cover the error of my way. I will search this matter out and what I learn as a result will make a difference in any future confrontations of this blog site.
I have confronted this blog site, (the founder did a bad thing starting it) I believe the author who planted the idea was Satan, and YES he would love for me to SHUT UP!
People, who have been decieved to believe that the blog site is good, they hate me but I don't hate them and I continue to pray that they will be freed from the grasp Satan has on them!!!
Apparently you have been deeply angered by my earlier post. There is an old saying with great truth, "IF the shoe doesn't fit don't wear it" If the shoe fits thank God for it, even if you don't like it, it can protect your feet!
I have listened to what you said, have you listened to what I have said?
Billie,
We don't hate Bellevue. Heck, a lot of us spent 10, 20, even 30 years there. We just hate the sin that the leadership is committing.
And another thing, and I hope you get this in your brain because I am not going to say this again....
I find your arrogant and cocky attittude to be quite offensive. Your attittude towards other churches is the exact reason why the public perception of Bellevue is that of a country club full of pompous, arrogant people who think they are better than everyone else. And there are comments of yours that reeks of this attittude. For example...
"My heart, our hearts are saddened over the great blessing that some of you have chosen not receive. Our Pastor teaches us to pray for you and regardless of what any of you may believe, I do pray for you to come to the knowledge of the Truth and choose to come back and unite with us as move on toward the coming of our Savior"
That comment right there tells me that YOU think Bellevue is SUPERIOR to the other churches in this city.
"Your choice has been to rebel and you are angry because we did not rebel with you. Your defense mechanism is to work and convince the people that you are innocent of rebellion against God by constantly pointing out any and everything negative about the leadership of BBC. Some of you had rather die than admit you are wrong."
Us being rebels? If opposing sin is rebellion, just call me Luke Skywalker then.
Seriously lady, pipe down, crawl back under the rock you came from and leave us alone. Oh yeah, Zoloft works wonders for curing delusional tendencies. You ought to see your physician today about that.
Billie wrote:
"First I want to say that I have not even seen or read an oath."
Were Sunday School teachers not required to sign the "Leadership Covenant"?
Goodness, I wouldn't even know where to start to correct the falsehoods (i.e. lies) posted at 5:17. There are so many. Instead, I think I will follow Nass's great example....
Have a nice day.....go enjoy the beautiful weather outside!
Truthseekers, how are you all doing?
:-)
billie said..."The reason I am so vocal against the blogsters on this site is because I agree with my Pastor that people who blog negative, false information for the purpose of destroying the testimony of another Christian is wrong."
Is that what he called it,"negative" and "false".
PROVE IT
Billie wrote:
"I agree with my Pastor that people who blog negative, false information for the purpose of destroying the testimony of another Christian is wrong."
I agree with your pastor on that one, too. You must have this blog confused with another one. That's not the purpose for this blog.
And, no, "we" aren't organized. This is a blog, started by one person, to provide a forum for others to discuss the issues facing our church -- and to do so without being ripped apart by others. (You haven't been banned -- yet, have you?) It's evolved into a bit more than that, but that was the original purpose. It's never been my (or anyone else's) purpose to "destroy someone's testimony." SG is doing a nice job of that all by himself.
concernedSBCer said...
Goodness, I wouldn't even know where to start to correct the falsehoods (i.e. lies) posted at 5:17. There are so many. Instead, I think I will follow Nass's great example....
Have a nice day.....go enjoy the beautiful weather outside!
Truthseekers, how are you all doing?
:-)
5:25 PM, October 02, 2007
I'm just doing peachy! :). I'm debating whether or not to take a cruise to mexico or sell the voucher I won at work last week lol.
Besides that, I feel old....I'm turning 27 tomorrow and I'm already going to be a great great uncle! My great neice is due to give birth to her baby daughter Oct. 18.
Lynn......remember....it's not the years; it's the mileage.
;-)
Dear Sister Billie: Did you not post this on this blog: "While I have an opionion of some of the people who are blogging on this site I have NOT made it a practice to call specific names and publically attack the integrity of anyone."?? LIES, LIES.
Do you really want me to go to the other blog and cut and paste some of your comments about me? Lady I for one do not care how you feel about me or anyone else on this blog. Please don't waste any prayers for my salvation. That was sealed in 1967. That relationship is very close with my Savior so don't worry. I don't want you to be amazed when you see me in Heaven. So blog on but please Ms. Billie be truthful. I guess when one tells lies it is hard to keep up with them and sooner or later you get caught as you just have. If you tell the truth you don't have that problem.
Now I guess you will run over to the other blog and say more bad things about me and how you are getting attacked again. Oh well. Such a waste.
David Brown
Nass,
Since we have to keep our blog on moderation,
(some people are so behind they forget this is America and we are free to differ in our views and opinions)
can we PLEASE now have all BT posts fall into that very special file you maintain in your basement???
I just can't stand anymore insanity.
I think if BT thinks SG is the annointed king....so be it...I don't care.
To continue to allow her to drag Bro R into the mud pit that the current leadership and SG dug for BBC is pointless.
And... I am with mom4 or whoever said it earlier....when did BT start talking in 3rd person like Willie????
Is there anyway we can stop letting delusional people control our blog.
Concernedsbcer said:
Lynn......remember....it's not the years; it's the mileage.
;-)
7:18 PM, October 02, 2007
oc says:
Maybe. But those without mileage haven't been useful. Sitting there on the show room floor and being shiney and pretty without being used by the Creator is just flat a waste.
As far as the Lord's economy goes, when you left the Dealer, you were expected to run the highway. Proclaim the Gospel. Put in the miles. Be proud of the mileage, not the year. It never mattered about the year, make, or any bumper to bumper guarantees.
It only mattered that you were obedient. That you loved the Lord with all your heart, and all your soul, and with all you mind.
Some of you do. I have seen it.
It sure blesses me!
Keep on truckin'.
And of course....
Just sayin'....
oc.
Mrs. Tapp, You found some "stuff" to say but what I want to know is WHAT DID YOU SAY TO ADDRESS the issue of speaking out on "why" God took Brother Adrian home? To make room for Pastor Gaines?Now you imply you are speaking for the Gaines, is this correct? If so you'd better be careful about piping off about why Brother Adrian died. You KNOW PASTOR STEVE would NOT have you spouting NONSENSE on is behalf. SEE why leadership wants Sunday School teachers off this blog? If you keep long winded tirades up, sooner or later you will overstep. When you make light of a painful death from cancer, you have officially blown it. YOUR WITNESS IS NULL AND VOID. NO planned statement from you in any style/form can EVER ERASE the fact that people from all over this country can see that you said what you did in your post at 10/2/07 1230PM....by the way I havent talked about the pastor; I talked about Y-O-U.
Billie said
How many of you stopped, before you rebeled, long enough to ask God if the changes in Bellevue was His Will for Bellevue? Personally, I do not see evidence that any of you, who are posting against our Pastor, have even considered what the will of God might be. God's will was for BBC to change or otherwise Dr. Rogers would have remained alive and in control. God removed Him!
Piglet says:
The changes that made us leave are this: The willful and defiant sins against God committed by Steve Gaines and those who wish to be part of his empire.
No, I did not have to consult with God as to whether this was His will.
Billie said:
This blog site has become a perpetrator of forgiveness, it builds up resentment and bitterness and distorts facts until it causes confusion for the purpose of destroying the leadership of BBC.
Piglet says:
You have that backwards. The leadership continues to distort the facts and this blog has not destroyed the leadership - this blog has exposed the leadership who are destroyng a once great church.
Billie said:
So many people, weak in faith, say not to bother with trying to reach out to you because you will only attack me and make me look bad. I am not concerned with myself; I am deeply concerned for your spiritual health.
Piglet says:
This surely has been a spiritual hurdle for me, but once over it, I have learned valuable lessons:
1. Never put faith in men. Some of the men I thought were the godliest saints have lied and behaved miserably this past year. After getting over the shock, I came to realize that my faith is in Christ alone - and that as long as I follow Him no man is superior to me. Very freeing in many ways.
2. Being in leadership is a huge responsibility and those who have that authority will answer for how they use it. Makes me a better mom.
3. I learned I can stand up for what I believe without fear. I haven't been forced to do this on many occasions, and especially when it required sacrifice. I am so glad that God enabled me to do this at BBC and I know my children were watching.
4. I learned that when God allows us to lose something precious to us - He replaces it with something far better - like He did for Job. We lost friends, for sure. But the new friendships we have now are deeper and are based on similiar convictions rather than similiar interests.
5. I learned that a simple gesture of appreciation from someone I admire is greater than any tangible reward. This great lady knows who she is. :)
6. God is faithful and Satan can deceive even the elect.
Billie said:
I have confronted this blog site, (the founder did a bad thing starting it) I believe the author who planted the idea was Satan, and YES he would love for me to SHUT UP!
Piglet says:
Watch out, billie. I think God had a hand in this blog getting started. Otherwise there would still be a pedophile on staff and the misdeeds of those who are responsible for the sheep would have been successfully hidden.
Billie says:
I have listened to what you said, have you listened to what I have said?
Piglet says:
Yeah, I've kept up. But you keep saying the same things - that we don't like change. If that were true, I would not have jerked my kids out of the only church they've ever known and out of all their activities and gone to visit a new church - talk about change!
No, I had to get my kids out from under aman I did not want them to emulate. Even if we could have kept them from knowing about much of his sin, his attitude and false teaching would have had its effect on them - as I see it has had an effect on you, a grown woman.
Lynn said:
Besides that, I feel old....I'm turning 27 tomorrow and I'm already going to be a great great uncle! My great neice is due to give birth to her baby
Piglet says:
Oh, thanks, Lynn. I could easily be your mother so what does that make me? I don't want to think about it. :(
It's alright, I felt old when the bag boys at the grooery store quit flirting with me.
piglet wrote:
"I felt old when the bag boys at the grooery store quit flirting with me."
And how about when they call you "ma'am"?
Lynn
Oh yeah, happy birthday! Going to Chuck E. Cheese tomorrow?
Sorry, couldn't help it. (snicker)
NBBCOF
Yeah, I hated that, too. :/
Piglet: Don't worry. You will always be the cutest in the hundred acre woods!
And I CAN still fit in my little pink suit!
Hi, Concernedsbcer!
Piglet: You've got mail!
:-)
Piglet: My compliments to your patience in dealing with the situation. I mean you were helping a stranger like me plus David Brown, knowing we were the ones setting her off. Poor David, he has really been put through it hasnt he?
God has used me in new/unique ways during this painful time. Out in the "real" world. But I really blew this one. I know people facing uncertainty due to cancer, and to say it was God's will for Brother Adrian, or for anyone. WOW, I just fell apart at the thought. He is, I believe using your precious nature tonight in this very place. I WILL BE STILL AND KNOW.....good night little piggie.
Piglet,
I've missed you!!!
Thanks for bringing your wisdom to the twilight zone again.
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