Monday, September 10, 2007

The Pastor Search Committee


Formerly called the "pulpit committee," is the body now called the "pastor search committee" always really qualified to search for a new pastor, and do they really do enough research before making a decision?

There were definitely some
questions regarding conflicts of interest with Bellevue's last pastor search committee.

Related articles:

Pastor searches packed with perils

INTEGRITY IN MINISTRY: NO HIDDEN SKELETONS IN YOUR CLOSET

Pastoral Search Questions

The Pastor Search Process

This illustrates how monumental the task must seem!

Pastor Search Committee Workbook

Steve Gaines addresses the congregation of Gardendale's FBC July 10, 2005 regarding the call to Bellevue in his "Didn't I tick you guys off?" speech. Summary here.

Thanks to "amazed" for this topic suggestion.

766 comments:

1 – 200 of 766   Newer›   Newest»
concernedSBCer said...

Reposts from the end of the last thread:

amazed said...
After going through at least four church splits due to preacher problems, one tends to become gun shy about taking any new church at face value. You tend to wonder what is hidden from view that no one has bothered to ask about. A good example is GBC and the difficulty they are having in finding a new pastor. I'm sure their past problems play into the equation and the membership is probably getting a little weary from it all.

10:11 AM, September 10, 2007


ezekiel said...
Amazed,

Sort of makes you wonder if the folks doing the search have requirements that God doesn't....

Do you suppose it really takes Him this long to choose who He wants for that position?

10:30 AM, September 10, 2007


concernedSBCer said...
Amazed: True. However, I have to wonder if, instead of that they are having difficulty in finding a new pastor but instead rather that they are being very cautious in choosing a new pastor is the situation at GBC. With all they have gone through, and the healing that needed to occur, a year doesn't seem excessive to me. Rather to go slowly, check, recheck, pray, pray some more...than to rush and make a mistake.

Just my thoughts.

Sometimes having a fast food society mentality is not the wisest approach.

10:35 AM, September 10, 2007


concernedSBCer said...
Sometimes it's all about timing....His timing.....not ours.

Israelites wandered 40 years....did it take that long for God to know where they should go? Of course not. It took that long for His Will to be done with that group of people so they could move on.

As the old saying goes...
"Haste makes Waste."

10:37 AM, September 10, 2007


New BBC Open Forum said...
If y'all want to hold off on this discussion, a new topic is coming up shortly.

10:43 AM, September 10, 2007


ezekiel said...
concernedsbcr,

I agree with you. Timing is everything.

However, knowing some of the people involved and their history with BBC....are they looking for that leader that will be strong enough.....or that man with a pastors heart?

I hope you are right.

11:08 AM, September 10, 2007


concernedSBCer said...
Ezekiel: You make a good point. I pray they are looking for a Pastor's heart with God's solid call.

(A CALL not a career)

I guess only time will tell.

11:18 AM, September 10, 2007


concernedSBCer said...
Sorry, Nass......This topic just interests me.....timing and what churchs should be looking for.....and one of patience (not my strong suit; still working on it.) What I have discovered is that God's timing is not ours and we would be much better to wait for Him.

11:20 AM, September 10, 2007

concernedSBCer said...

Article said: "The Bellevue family was not told who the Search Committee's choice was before that service. Many found out in the Memphis paper the Commercial Appeal that Sunday morning prior to the service. The Deacons found out that morning as well who the Search Committee had selected to be our next pastor."

This is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start. There should have been time for a "meet and greet".....for a Q & A......not just of the committee but of SG.

I realize many were aware of the fact that SG was the frontrunner. However, to put every decision in the hands of the Search Committee is unfathomable. The Deacons should have had a meeting with him.

So many could've, should've and didn't.

sickofthelies said...

It has become painfully obvious that the search committee had their own agenda.

Lin said...

Quote from the Bobby Mullins article:
"If you were our pastor, we may not agree with you on something you wanted the church to do, but if we were convinced in our minds that you were convinced in your mind that you were doing what God had led you to do, we would get on our knees and crawl with you, if that’s what it takes, to help you do what the Lord was leading you to do.”

I have MAJOR Biblical issues with this type of thinking. Gaines is convinced in his mind he is going what God has led him to do. Yet, God does not want us to ignore His Word not twist it to fit our premises.

My goodness, this type of thinking is what led to the Branch Davidians and Jim Jones.

No, we must be convinced through the Holy Spirit speaking through the Word. Not by a charismatic, persuasive man.

You may tell me that is not what he meant but it surely is what he wrote.

Lin said...

Based on Ephesians 4, I believe 'preaching' is a gift given by the Holy Spirt and NOT an office. We tend to view it as an office in most churches. A 'position' and not a gifting.


1I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you towalk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8Therefore it says,

"When he ascended on high(U) he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men."

9 In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

A few points:

1.Scripture gives qualifications for offices. Qualifications are given for apostles, elder/ bishops, and deacons/deaconesses.

2.Scripture does not give qualifications for gifts. Gifts are given according to the will of God through the Holy Spirit.

3.Since there are no qualifications given for the list in Ephesians 4:11 (apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor-teachers), pastor-teachers are individuals endowed with spiritual gifts, not offices.

This perspective was presented at the Evangelical Theological Society meetings by Dr. Harold Hoehner.

He presented a paper argued that Ephesians 4:11 indicates that “pastor-teacher” is a spiritual gift and not an office in the church. This position is consistent with his commentary on the book of Ephesians.

Dr. Hoehner is one of the ESV translation review scholars.

Think of the difference it would make if we viewed preaching as a gift. Our entire view would change of what is expected of a preacher.

It would be interesting to hear from others here how their view of a preacher would change is they saw it as a spiritual gift only and not an 'office'.

Lily said...

Very good related articles. It's unfortunate that the BBC search committee didn't appear to have followed many of the recommendations except to ask the congregation to pray for the committee.


verification: ifmrq

amazed said...

A look at the makeup of the BBC search committee explains why the process was doomed from the start. It was top heavy with entrenched, long serving lay leadership that not only brought conflicts of interest to the table, but a hidden agenda as well. Once a candidate was selected, the other members could and would be swayed to agree.

Most pastor search committees are not inquisitive enough. They don't want to spend the time and effort to really dig into a candidates background. You can't find out what you need to know by talking to his friends. They should get information from each church where he has served, find out how many people left during his period of service and search out and talk with some of them.

I saw a church call a certain preacher back around 1970 and he messed things up, stayed a few years and then moved on. Thirty years later, a different church made the same mistake and called the same preacher. The one common thread--two particular people served on both search committees.

In reality, a pastor search committee should only be a conduit through which God does the selecting. However, as long as human beings are involved, I'm afraid we will continue to be duped as happened at BBC.

Will have more later.

New BBC Open Forum said...

This doesn't really warrant a response as this person knows good and well he was banned from posting in this forum, but to answer the question by "jack"/"ace" -- yes, you are still banned. Nice try, though.

eprov said...

It seems to me that the premise for the pulpit committee that served to call SG, and the
acceptance by SG of the call, was a total farce. I voted to endorse the call. He was to be 'my' pastor.
But low and behold the committee and SG both knew that he had other plans. Get rid of the trash. Get rid of the old, bring in the new.
He had a plan to change the ministry of the church which would obviously entail an unknown number that he had no intentions of being their pastor.
I think they were all dishonest. And this is God's work???
I guess they thought / think that the ends justify the means. Oh well.

allofgrace said...

The "ends justifies the means" aka pragmatism, is nothing new to the SBC...it's been simmering in the pot for some time...like about 100 yrs. Under EY Mullins' leadership the churches of the SBC began moving in that direction. Any time right doctrine is sacrificed for the sake of numbers, or anything else for that matter, the result is catastrophic.

concernedSBCer said...

eprov: That's why I think the decision doesn't need to be totally a on a Pastor Search Committee. I think they narrow the field then it goes before the deacons, etc. A pastor should meet with church members in advance, subject himself to a Q & A, etc.

But I have a question: would anyone have met? Would anyone have made the effort to go to another meeting? Was there so much trust in the committee that the personal resonsibility felt less?

Just wondering.

ezekiel said...

I borrowed this from Pyro today. They have an interesting discussion going as well.

"It is because so many untaught men, unregenerate men, now occupy the pulpits that "another gospel" (Gal. 1:6) is being so widely and generally disseminated. Multitudes who have neither "tasted that the Lord is gracious" nor have "the fear of the Lord" in them have, from various motives and considerations, invaded the sacred calling of the ministry, and out of the abundance of their corrupt hearts they speak. Being blind themselves, they lead the blind into the ditch. Having no love for the Shepherd they have none for the sheep, being but "hirelings." They are themselves "of the world" and therefore "the world heareth them" (1 John 4:5), for they preach that which is acceptable unto fallen human nature, and as like attracts like, they gather around themselves a company of admirers who flatter and support them. They will bring in just enough of God’s Truth to deceive the unwary and give the appearance of orthodoxy to their message, but not sufficient of the Truth, especially the searching portions thereof, to render their hearers uncomfortable by destroying their false peace. They will name Christ but not preach Him, mention the Gospel but not expound it".

AW Pink

eprov said...

concerned.....
I joined BBC during the interim and had this false hope that because of the size of the congregation and the legacy of great pastors that the committee and process would reflect a spiritual maturity and the need to build on the legacy.
The 1st red flag for me was when ALL the committee took my time in a service to 'defend' their decision. I thot at the time it was a bit of overkill and unnecessary. In hindsight it was a joke, my opinion. I think it was an effort to manipulate sentiment.
I had never heard of SG but to position him as continuing a legacy of men the stature of R.G. Lee and Adrian Rogers is beyond my comprehension.
To reduce such a holy calling for a committee to approach the task of finding a pastor with what now appears to have been a manipulated objective is startling to me.
The results of their actions are disastrous.
And to insinuate that NO pastor could be found with the ability to maintain the congregation and move it forward is dishonest. Seems to me that if God had been included in the process that the church would be intact and growing.

amazed said...

The other thing that causes a pastor search committee to be a flawed instrument is the penchant for working in secrecy. When they have settled on a candidate, his name should be given to the congregation at least a week before he comes to preach. That way there would be a little time for the church members to do a little research on their own. Now its listen to a thirty minute sermon and vote. That would be analogous to a family that knows nothing about the Memphis area, coming to town and purchasing the first house they see that is for sale.

amazed said...

It sure is refreshing to see others expressing the opinion that God did not have a hand in sending SG to BBC. It was a man made deal from the get go.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I agree the secrecy with which this committee conducted itself was strange at best.

And not to diminish everyone's responsibility in praying for the committee, but I can't help but wonder if a yet-to-be-confessed sexual predator had not been in charge of praying for the committee, would the results have been different? I don't know the answer, but it's something I can't get out of my mind.

New BBC Open Forum said...

amazed wrote:

"It sure is refreshing to see others expressing the opinion that God did not have a hand in sending SG to BBC."

I can't speak for anyone else, but I never said that. I think God "has a hand" in everything. We may not always know the reasons things happen, but God's definitely in control. I've heard a lot of people state they think God may have had a definite purpose for allowing SG to come to BBC. (And no, it wasn't to "take out the trash" as certain people have suggested!)

oc said...

NASS said:
And not to diminish everyone's responsibility in praying for the committee, but I can't help but wonder if a yet-to-be-confessed sexual predator had not been in charge of praying for the committee, would the results have been different? I don't know the answer, but it's something I can't get out of my mind.

oc says:
James says that the fervent prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. Need I wonder what happens when an unrighteous and self serving and self protecting man prays?
I guess still much was accomplished...

Just sayin'.
oc.

oc said...

Do you get what/who you pay for?
Or do you get what/who you pray for?

Junkster said...

Lin said...
Quote from the Bobby Mullins article:
"If you were our pastor, we may not agree with you on something you wanted the church to do, but if we were convinced in our minds that you were convinced in your mind that you were doing what God had led you to do, we would get on our knees and crawl with you, if that’s what it takes, to help you do what the Lord was leading you to do.”

I have MAJOR Biblical issues with this type of thinking. Gaines is convinced in his mind he is going what God has led him to do. Yet, God does not want us to ignore His Word not twist it to fit our premises.

My goodness, this type of thinking is what led to the Branch Davidians and Jim Jones.

No, we must be convinced through the Holy Spirit speaking through the Word. Not by a charismatic, persuasive man.

You may tell me that is not what he meant but it surely is what he wrote.


I understand and agree with your concerns. And I won't say "that is not what be meant" -- but I will say "that is not what he said." Seemed to me that his point was that godly membership is willing to follow godly leadership, if both are convinced they are following God's will.

He could have worded it better, but he didn't state that they would follow the pastor just because of the pastor's charisma or persuasion. Me thinks your (appropriately) cautionary nature is making an inference where there was no such implication.

point2praise said...

We are to praise God for the good years. We are to praise God for the bad years. We are to praise God for all things. We are to praise Him with thanksgiving in our hearts. If a man can praise God and write, "It is well with my soul" while grieving the death of his family, can we not praise him for the homecoming of Dr. Rogers and also for the coming of his replacement?

I have found peace over the entire situation but it did not come until I began to praise God for all things. Dr. Rogers taught us to do this. I am continuing to attend Bellevue and Dr. Gaines is growing on me. I believe we judged the man too harshly. He seems to have adjusted to us and is genuinely dedicated to preaching the gospel.
I have been reading for months and I know some on here believe that he is twisting the Word, but I don't see it. I don't always like what I hear but I can't argue with it. I have a long history of biblical studies under some of the greatest scholars of our day. I, along with some of them have been reviewing Dr. Gaines sermons and we have not found any discrepancies.

The topic of conversation regards the committee in charge of the pastor search. We are to praise God for allowing us the freedom to have committees. Many Christians are underground without any freedoms and are thrilled to have a pastor. I choose to praise God for who and what we have!
I pray that some of you will learn to be thankful and less critical!

Junkster said...

Lin said...
Based on Ephesians 4, I believe 'preaching' is a gift given by the Holy Spirt and NOT an office. We tend to view it as an office in most churches. A 'position' and not a gifting.

Hmmmm... I'll have to think about this one, but my first reaction is that this also appears to be infering more than is implied. :)

"Pastor-teacher" is generally equivalent to the way we use "preacher" in common modern usage, which is to refer to one who teaches Scripture. But "preach" and "preacher" are generally used in a more narrow and specific sense in the NT, particularly in reference to public proclamation of the gospel message. I assume you are equating "pastor-teacher" with "preacher" in the common usage of "preacher" rather than in the more technical sense.

The terms "bishop", "elder", and "pastor" are used interchangably in other Bible passages. "Pastor" used the least often, but it is clearly used (Acts 20 being the premier example) to refer to the same function within the church as "elder" and "bishop". Thus the qualifications given for bishop (1 Tim) apply equally to elders and pastors, because the words all refer to the same thing.

It is also important to keep in mind that the "gift" of "pastor-teacher", like the other gifts listed (apostle, prophet, evangelist) is not quite the same as a "spiritual gift" in the sense of a special ability granted to an individual within the body. In that sense, God gives one person the gift of encouragement, and anothet the gift of administration, etc.

But in Eph 4, the "gifts" are not given to an individual, they are given to the entire body -- the gifts are the roles themselves (and the individuals fulfulling those roles). For example, Paul, the apostle, was a gift to the whole church. The idea being conveyed in Eph 4 isn't that Paul was given the gift of being an apostle, it is that the role of apostle is God's gift to the body, to equip the body to fulfill the work of ministry. Likewise, God gives churches "pastor-teachers" (aka elders, aka bishops) as his gifts to each congregation to equip them to do His work.

Anyway, that's what my studies have led me to conclude. But I am open to further instruction and refinement.

MOM4 said...

The pastor's search committee obviously had an agenda. Other than the apparent situation with the Caldwell family, I am not aware of other motives that would cause them to blindly seek after a man of such low esteem, as noted by the membership of at his previous churches and within certain SBC circles on numerous occassions, some here on this blog and some thru personal relationships.
I AM aware of the FACT that they were warned, repeatedly. A very prominent member of the church brought all the information to light that the search committee needed to make them aware of the caliber of the man they were seeking. This man was spurned, turned away and shut out. He resigned his positions within the church and has since moved away. His family was deeply wounded, just as many have been wounded since SG's arrival. The damage that has been wrought solely lies at the feet of the search committee and all those who covered up the facts concerning Steve Gaines. You know who you are.

oc said...

Concernedsbcer said:
But I have a question: would anyone have met? Would anyone have made the effort to go to another meeting? Was there so much trust in the committee that the personal resonsibility felt less?

Just wondering.

oc wonders too:
Are you talking about 'spiritual apathy', or spiritual laziness?
Whenever a Christian foregoes his/her privilege and responsibility in the Holy Spirit, that one basically casts his/her vote for allegiance to the other side. "He who is not for Me, is against Me. And he who does not gather with Me scatters."
(Matthew 12:30.) There is no 'hanging on the fence'. It is reminiscent of the lukewarm water spewed from the mouth of the Lord spoken of in Revelation. Hot or cold? Choose one. At least one temperature is recognized as loyal to the Lord. And the other temperature is at least honestly hell bent. But warm just spews. It reeks of apathy. Repugnant to the Lord.
So did some members trust a committee and therefore sherk their responsibility in the Lord?
Sometimes even prayer is work, you know?

Just sayin'.
oc.

ezekiel said...

Junkster,

Romans 12 indicates the pastors that He gives us, Jer 3:15...are also gifted for that calling.

Romans 12:12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;

12:7 Or ministry, [let us wait] on [our] ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, [let him do it] with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

ezekiel said...

1 Cor 12 Also indicates that the pastors, apostles, prophets are gifted as well to perform their duties, just as all members of the body are gifted in something....



1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

12:29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?

12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

sickofthelies said...

Awwwww, Ace/Jack/CS,

Still trying to cause trouble over here? Don't you have some 7th graders to go and hang out with?
AFTER ALL, your FACEBOOK profile says that one of your interests is hanging out with middle schoolers.

Just wondering,why would you list all those TV shows, you know, Hanna Montana, The suite life with Zach and Cody, Spongebob, etc. as your favorite tv shows? Are you TRYING to attract teeny boppers to converse with you on your facebook?
Why would a 21 y/o man want to do that?

Wierd...Weird indeed.

32yrs@bbc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MOM4 said...

32 years,
While I disagree with your opinion, I respectfully want you to know that I have considered all the options. Knowing Dr Rogers personal feelings and his bent toward Steve Gaines, I can also understand the influence he would forebear upon the search committee. I also understand the strong emphasis the man who warned the search committee and possibly Dr Rogers, about the history of Steve Gaines. Regardless of Dr Rogers opinions and influence, the search committee had an obligation to the membership and the Lord to do due diligence in their search. They neglected to fulfill their obligations to all, instead pulling (dragging) in a man of the world instead a man of God. Why did they rush him on thru without questions if they had nothing to hide?

Lin said...

"Me thinks your (appropriately) cautionary nature is making an inference where there was no such implication."

Junk, Thanks for your input but I have learned the hard way to be very suspicious with things like this for ONE reason: Scripture was never mentioned in this exchange..and it was an exchange that was published as a teaching tool.

Churchmouse said...

32yrs@bbc said...
Regarding the Search Committee, I do not believe there were any underhanded, ulterior motives.

Reply:

Look at the names of those who made up the search committee. I don't have the complete list, but seem to remember Smith, Caldwell, Tucker, Taylor, Sorrell, and others. Then review the past two years. No agenda?

32years, I respect your opinion.

New BBC Open Forum said...

churchmouse wrote:

"Look at the names of those who made up the search committee. I don't have the complete list, but seem to remember Smith, Caldwell, Tucker, Taylor, Sorrell, and others. Then review the past two years. No agenda?"

Chuck Taylor, Chairman
Harry Smith, Vice Chairman
Steve Tucker
Bryan Miller
Jeff Arnold, Jr.
Pat Caldwell
Faye Hardy
Eric Brand
Bob Sorrell
Mark Spiller

New BBC Open Forum said...

32yrs wrote:

"Search Committee spent months of travel and weekly late-into-the night meetings at a personal sacrifice."

No doubt they spent a number of hours meeting, etc., but did they really spend "months" traveling and meeting? This information comes from SG's July 10, 2005 address to the GFBC congregation:

In early December 2004, an article in the Commercial Appeal about the retirement of Dr. Rogers mentioned Steve Gaines as a possible replacement. Steve called the head of the search committee, Chuck Taylor, who told him that out of 170 candidates they'd narrowed the list down to five and that he was one of the five. He said he told Chuck to just take his name off the list. "Now your list is four," he said he told him.

When was the search committee formed? Does anyone remember? (I'm not sure, but I was thinking late in 2004.) According to this (SG's own words), they'd narrowed the list down to 5 candidates by early December. So I seriously doubt they spent "months" traveling or interviewing potential pastors. Rather, I think they spent the next five months pursuing Steve Gaines.

Does anyone have any idea who any of the other four on the "short list" were? Did the committee members travel to hear any potential candidates? Did they interview anyone else?

I remember July 3rd, the Sunday the committee announced they'd found "God's man." They refused to reveal his name, saying only that he'd preach in both Sunday morning services the following week, after which the congregation would vote.

I ate lunch that day with a large group from BBC. One of the women was visiting from out of state. There was much discussion at the table about who the "chosen one" was, and this lady just shook her head and said, "That's the strangest thing I've ever seen in a Southern Baptist church." I had to concur.

I was out of town the following Sunday, so I missed the vote. However, based upon the secrecy with which the whole process took place and the fact that we didn't know anything about SG or have the opportunity to get to know him at all first, I would have been reluctant to vote to call him that day.

It still seems odd to me that someone could be on the "list of 5" without even knowing he was being considered for the job. Imagine picking up the newspaper and learning for the very first time that -- surprise! -- you're being considered as AR's replacement. I'm sorry, but this one doesn't pass the smell test.

Lin said...

Junk wrote:Likewise, God gives churches "pastor-teachers" (aka elders, aka bishops) as his gifts to each congregation to equip "


1 Corinthians 14 becomes very confusing when we try to pidgeonhole 'roles' with gifting.



26What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification.

27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;

28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.

30But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.

31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;

32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;

33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

In verse 26, 'every one' of you is the Greek word hekastos. It literally means each person..man or woman. Everyone in the Body is gifted with something for edification of the entire body.

In verse 29, we see more than one 'prophet' speaking and then the others judging.

This is a far cry from what we see today. Can we all see the safety in this?

amazed said...

One or two posters have pointed out another flaw in the search process. Dr. Rogers should have stayed out of the process all together.He should have taken the position that BBC would have to live with the new man for years and the decision should be theirs alone. Dr. Criswell made the same mistake at FBCD when his hand picked successor lasted less than a year. My how things that seem so right can go so wrong. History does seem to repeat its self.

Lin said...

"Pastor" used the least often, but it is clearly used (Acts 20 being the premier example) to refer to the same function within the church as "elder" and "bishop".

Junk, this subject is certainly fascinating. I love digging into this and learning about scriptural worship. (Worship in Spirit and truth!~)

The term elder oddly makes it first ‘Christian’ appearance in Acts 14 telling us they were appointed in each of the new churches. I know that this term is interchanged with ‘pastor’ quite a bit but I cannot agree that it ever meant sole teacher or prophet. I believe that is a man made structure.

My whole point here is that a sole preacher/pastor is not what we see in the NT worship. In 1 Corinthians 14, we see the entire Body gifted to do something in worship. Every single believer will be gifted in some area. Why is it we do not believe this anymore?

If we believe 1 Corinthians 14, we can see that Paul was saying more than one should preach and the others judge. I can certainly see safety in that.

By the way, would you agree that the term elder simply means someone mature in the faith who can teach or prophesy? Would you also agree that in addition to the qualifications in 1 Tim and Titus that elders should possess and demonstrate the salt elements we see in Matthew 5?

This is fascinating stuff! If we really took this to heart, it would radically change how we approach worship and ‘calling’ pastors. Maybe we would not have to. :o)

eprov said...

NBBCOF......
Thanks for this thread!
I think history will be less kind to the search committee than the selectee.
I have never faulted SG. I think he is who he is. I tend to downplay any hidden agenda on his part. The issue of being a good preacher or not is as simple as the 'you say tomato, I say tamahto.'
Not being insider and having no contact with anyone in on the process, I think it reeks of a preset agenda. Too many telltale signs.
I would be disappointed to think that AR tried to influence this process, altho it might be understandable.
I just think that all the committee were 'yes men' and all the exercises they referenced seem to have been perfunctory.
It is so easy for us to have our minds made up and even deceive ourselves that we are 'praying' for God to lead. Oh yeah. Sometimes I think God just shakes His head in disbelief!

amazed said...

32YRS: Is it difficult to breathe, while holding your nose, in order to "go along with the program?"

Lin said...

"As disheartened as I am over the past two years, I do not consider SG a false teacher."

32+, Did you read the letter on Gaines' Acts 2 sermon? And, that is just one. We have dicussed others on this blog before.

The writer had it right: A text without context is a pretext.

Churchmouse said...

The same men who controlled the church for several years before Steve Gaines was chosen are the ones who remain in control at this time. Their area of influence also includes Union Univ., ECS, and formerly MABTS and LWF.

These men were, in large part, the search committee.

When Dr. Rogers' health began to fail, a power vacuum began to form. What was at stake? Control of Bellevue Baptist Church -"flagship of the Southern Baptist Convention" and ALL that THAT encompasses - the power, the influence, the money, the theology, and on and on....

concernedSBCer said...

"In early December 2004, an article in the Commercial Appeal about the retirement of Dr. Rogers mentioned Steve Gaines as a possible replacement. Steve called the head of the search committee, Chuck Taylor, who told him that out of 170 candidates they'd narrowed the list down to five and that he was one of the five. He said he told Chuck to just take his name off the list. "Now your list is four," he said he told him."

So why didn't the committee respct his word and mark him off the list?

gmommy said...

32+,
I mean no disrespect at all to you. I feel like I know you and I certainly care about you.
what we bring to this blog...as a whole...has nothing to do anymore with bringing change to BBC or making a choice to stay or go.

It's stressful here sometimes and some have made the decision to detach themselves from the situation. Some are still in shock or pain and need to be here.

Things only get crazy when those that don't want the world to "see our dirty laundry" come on here and start trouble...even if they use seemingly spiritural talk.

I don't fault you for your position. It does seem to have changed and I think you are probably weary.

SG is not uneducated or stupid. He knows how he is teaching the Bible and using it for his agenda. There are people that will stumble because of his teaching and because of his example.
Children have seen very clearly what is going on is wrong. We see it.
I don't believe we are murmuring in our tents.

MOM4 said...

eprov,
We can only speculate at this time about the influence Dr Rogers had over the selection process, although we know that he did take SG under his wing and promote him on different occassions. If he did promote one candidate over another, I would not be out of line in saying that he lived to regret it seeing how SG treated him after he came to power. I am just wondering what kind of spin they are working on to justify Mrs. Rogers' departure? Anyone know?

eprov said...

churchmouse.....
Can we assume that the lay leaders you referenced were of the mind that dramatic changes needed to be made at BBC in order to move forward?
I thot the comments by MS during the famous meeting with SG about his concern that out of thousands of members only a few percentage wise were active in leadership or service. My thot response was that there wasn't anything unusual about that in any organization. But it seemed to be a 'cause celebre' with him.
Do we think that the others had their 'agendas' and thus the power struggles that ensued?
As a 3rd generation Baptist, this is so 'small church' that I find it disgusting.
Fleshly power struggles should be left at the door.
I think IF we had any eternal perspective at all when it comes to this, we would fall on our faces in sackcloth and ashes.
All power belongs to Him. He doesn't share the glory!

concernedSBCer said...

churchmouse said: "When Dr. Rogers' health began to fail, a power vacuum began to form. What was at stake? Control of Bellevue Baptist Church -"flagship of the Southern Baptist Convention" and ALL that THAT encompasses - the power, the influence, the money, the theology, and on and on...."

See, there you go....pride and power, not humility and integrity. Where was God in the equation?

Now, I'm not saying this was not necessarily of God. God is in control, regardless. But if you push hard enough, God will allow you to do what you are bound and determined to do. It's certainly not His perfect Will, however.

Wonder where BBC would be if someone else had been called? Of course, I guess a case could be made (and has been mentioned several times on this blog) that God might have wanted the sheep at BBC to scatter. However, God is NOT happy when his children are treated poorly, abandoned, mislead, and abused, no matter what.

Still so many questions.....

fogmachine said...

The Search Committee was charged with finding God’s man for Bellevue. We heard them repeat that back to us as the search went forth. At the same time our church acknowledged that we all wanted God’s man. We put our own rules in place that may have superseded what God wanted.

Let’s look at the search committee itself. As a church, we didn’t trust the church body to elect the search committee. We limited the selection of the committee to the deacons. With the pattern of entrenched leadership, did we perhaps err at the beginning by discounting the voice of the church body?

The committee ended up looking like the Who’s Who of Bellevue. Most of the church could have predicted the names on the committee (outside of the two women). The only reason two women were selected was because the rules dictated beforehand there would be 8 men and 2 women. How did we know that God didn’t want 10 men and zero women or 6 men and 4 women? The rules dictated that no man who was on the committee that selected Dr. Rogers could be on this committee? Who came up with that idea? Was God in that decision? Perhaps God’s committee didn’t end up looking like our Search Committee.

With the final committee selected, it’s easy to realize why Steve Gaines became our pastor. We learned that Dr. Rogers encouraged the committee to pursue Steve Gaines and the fact that the Caldwell’s son-in-law and daughter would most assuredly come to Bellevue with a Steve Gaines package made Steve Gaines a frontrunner. (The Caldwell’s daughter and son-in-law were indeed brought up from Gardendale to Bellevue within the first year)

Did this cloud the committee’s decision in their thinking? Only God knows. IMO the committee should have heeded the warning of people who forewarned them of Steve Gaines. I know of at least two well respected deacons who personally warned the committee not to call Steve Gaines based on his past leadership in Jackson, TN and Gardendale.

Perhaps the committee was tired of looking, or convinced Steve Gaines was the man. Either way, Steve Gaines is our pastor. That fact that he was selected does not guarantee us today that he was the best man for the job. I do believe God allowed Steve Gaines to be selected as our pastor.

Fast-forward to today. Does it matter that Steve Gaines is making an astronomical salary that is 10 times what the average median household income is for the church body? Does it matter that he has and continues to beat his sheep and fleece them? Does it matter that he uses the Scripture for his purposes instead of His purposes?

The way a pastor lives his life when he’s not behind the pulpit means a lot more than what he preaches behind the pulpit. As of today, I’m not seeing anything change outside the pulpit.

Will God honor the continued secrecy behind the church doors? Will God honor the continued refusal of the church leadership to repent? Will God honor the continued dishonesty of the church leadership over matters that have been made public?

The church is changing by the day. My question is this? Is Bellevue becoming more like the World or is it becoming more like Christ? Decide for yourself and go where God leads you.

gmommy said...

SG wasn't suppose to "come to power"...he was suppose to be a servant.

We have allowed things to get to this point in so many ways.
We haven't kept our first love.

We have let ourselves be spoon fed by "those in power" rather than hungering for the scripture and seeking to grow into His image.

We have played church and done a fine job of it.
We have taken so many things for granted.

gmommy said...

Why has the big argument ...or justification at BBC been about "God's man" and not about God's Word???

Why have so many of the sermon's focused on putting SG in the place of someone great in the Bible???

Why hasn't the scripture just been the main thing????

amazed said...

Hey folks, lets always remember one thing, every church (small, medium, large) and of every persuasion, is usually controlled by just a few people that feel their calling in life is to be in charge. A lot of times, it boils down to just one-the pastor. Most of the congregation just don't want to get involved.

WishIhadknown said...

Just curious, how does a reasonable person recommend someone as a pastor who says he is coming to "destroy" the church? How do you stand and cheer? Isn't the job of destroying the church Satan's?

point2praise said...

I am just wondering what kind of spin they are working on to justify Mrs. Rogers' departure? Anyone know?

10:21 AM, September 11, 2007




Some are saying that Ms. Rogers most likely would not be happy any longer at Bellevue because of the changes in her own life resulting from the death of her husband. I agree because it is difficult to make adjustments to a new way of living and every change made is a reminder that the life you once had no longer exist. I love Ms. Rogers and have great sympathy and compassion for her. Watching her struggle to keep her husband's ministry healthy and alive has been difficult but at the same time I have had to accept that Dr. Roger's ministry at Bellevue is over and I believe that Ms. Rogers has accepted it and it was time for her to move on.
I continue to attend Bellevue and watching our church go through the exchange of leadership has been very difficult but I believe that God is in control and I believe that Dr. Gaines is the right person to lead Bellevue into a mission minded congregation that will reach out to make a difference in Memphis and the surrounding area. I remember Dr. Rogers with deep love and praise to God for all the years he translated the Word of God into words that I could understand. So far I can say that Dr. Gaines has the same gift; I know some on here will disagree.
We don't have to like the person who stands behind the pulpit but please lets not accuse a man of distorting God's Word just because we don't like him. Most I talk with think Dr. Gaines and the committee were and are correct with the Word that the man preaches and teaches, most say that the conflicts he is facing is God at work producing a man that we will all love; we just need to give God time to complete His work.

Point2Praise

MOM4 said...

Point,
While I can appreciate your poignant post, I definitly disagree with the opinion that Mrs Rogers would have left had she not been forced out. I believe she would have remained with her beloved New Christian Children's class until the Lord called her home. She loved each and every person at Bellevue and when she left, she left her heart behind I am sure. She has exhibited much more grace and love than the new first lady (calling the unwanted congregants "trash").
I in no way would have ever dreamed that she would be so deeply wounded by the very same men who laid hands of blessings on her and her husband at his retirement services. She has been and will continue to be the First Lady Emeritus of Bellevue Baptist Church and there is no one at Bellevue worthy to fill her shoes. Perhaps in the future, the Lord will see fit to bring a Godly pastorate back to Bellevue, and with it, another First Lady who loves the Lord and the membership with all her heart, but that is NOT what we have now.
On another note, if you have not seen and heard error (not to mention lies and mockings) from the pulpit, then perhaps you may want to watch some of his sermons online with your Bible in hand and ask the Lord to show you the error - read in context. You can start with the David Coombs' ordination sermon.

amazed said...

Point2Praise: How can God produce "a man we will all love" when that particular man is completely devoid of love?

Housewife said...

point2praise said...

I have found peace over the entire situation... I am continuing to attend Bellevue and Dr. Gaines is growing on me.
9:33 PM, September 10, 2007


response:

It sounds like you took the path of least resistance more than anything. Not very convincing.

I believe we judged the man too harshly.

response:

If you have read and heard all the proof we have presented and are still saying this, then nothing will open your eyes. It seems you don't want them open. You remind me so much of Billie Tapp. I see you're checking in again.

He seems to have adjusted to us...

response:

Don't you think that's the least he could do? He was the one who came to us after all, as opposed to the other way around.

...and is genuinely dedicated to preaching the gospel.
I have been reading for months and I know some on here believe that he is twisting the Word, but I don't see it.


response:

You don't want to see it.

I have a long history of biblical studies under some of the greatest scholars of our day. I, along with some of them have been reviewing Dr. Gaines sermons and we have not found any discrepancies.

response:

This either doesn't say much about the "great scholars" you're referring to or your biblical study skills. Frankly, you're just not paying attention. You haven't found any discrepancies??? I'm sure you read the anonymous letter. And if you didn't pick up at least a few discrepancies on you own, then, again, you're not paying attention.

You really do sound like Billie Tapp. Like BT, you like to refer to AR in the same sentence as SG. She said it herself, "If one goes down, so does the other." She couldn't defend SG without using AR's name too.

Also, she seemed too willingly blind to the truth about SG, almost ridiculously so. The defense points you used for SG sounded just like that.

BT also liked to "overpuff" her learned/biblical prowess but when she attempted to prove it, she proved to be anything but!

32yrs@bbc said...

amazed said...
32YRS: Is it difficult to breathe, while holding your nose, in order to "go along with the program?"
----------------
I wouldn't know. I left "the program" sometime ago.

Housewife said...

point2praise said...

Some are saying that Ms. Rogers most likely would not be happy any longer at Bellevue because of the changes in her own life resulting from the death of her husband.


response:

Oh sure. And it had NOTHING to do with the way SG treated her husband before he died. It had NOTHING to do with the way SG treated JW. It had NOTHING to do with the fact that she asked SG to clear AR's name from the pulpit in the PW case and SG's refusal. Shall I go on?

I guess there's a limited amount of spin you could put on this one. It speaks volumes!

I agree because it is difficult to make adjustments to a new way of living and every change made is a reminder that the life you once had no longer exist.

response:

...like respect and a pastor with integrity... yup, no longer exist.

I love Ms. Rogers and have great sympathy and compassion for her. Watching her struggle to keep her husband's ministry healthy and alive has been difficult but at the same time I have had to accept that Dr. Roger's ministry at Bellevue is over and I believe that Ms. Rogers has accepted it and it was time for her to move on.

response:

Ouch. It sounds like you're saying, "It's time the old bat accepted she's irrelevant and move on!!"

Far be it from me to put words in your mouth though. It does sound a bit matter-of-fact.

BTW, I do feel sympathy for her but not just for the loss of her husband which was a great loss in itself. I also feel sympathy for her because she had to endure the abuse of SG.

I believe that Dr. Gaines is the right person... I remember Dr. Rogers with deep love and praise to God for all the years he translated the Word of God into words that I could understand. So far I can say that Dr. Gaines has the same gift;

response:

Again, this is eerily familiar. First, you talk about AR, then you follow with praises for SG as if the two cannot be separated while in defense mode.

I know some on here will disagree.
We don't have to like the person who stands behind the pulpit but please lets not accuse a man of distorting God's Word just because we don't like him.


response:

No, we're accusing him of distorting God's Word because he distorts God's Word. Liking SG or not has nothing to do with it. BT used to like to use the same distraction tactic.

Most I talk with think Dr. Gaines and the committee were and are correct with the Word that the man preaches and teaches, most say that the conflicts he is facing is God at work producing a man that we will all love; we just need to give God time to complete His work.

response:

BT used to use this tactic too. "Most people say..." as if public opinion was more important than biblical truth.

Hmm.

johnthebaptist said...

point2praise said...
I am just wondering what kind of spin they are working on to justify Mrs. Rogers' departure? Anyone know?

10:21 AM, September 11, 2007




Some are saying that Ms. Rogers most likely would not be happy any longer at Bellevue because of the changes in her own life resulting from the death of her husband. I agree because it is difficult to make adjustments to a new way of living and every change made is a reminder that the life you once had no longer exist. I love Ms. Rogers and have great sympathy and compassion for her. Watching her struggle to keep her husband's ministry healthy and alive has been difficult but at the same time I have had to accept that Dr. Roger's ministry at Bellevue is over and I believe that Ms. Rogers has accepted it and it was time for her to move on.
I continue to attend Bellevue and watching our church go through the exchange of leadership has been very difficult but I believe that God is in control and I believe that Dr. Gaines is the right person to lead Bellevue into a mission minded congregation that will reach out to make a difference in Memphis and the surrounding area. I remember Dr. Rogers with deep love and praise to God for all the years he translated the Word of God into words that I could understand. So far I can say that Dr. Gaines has the same gift; I know some on here will disagree.
We don't have to like the person who stands behind the pulpit but please lets not accuse a man of distorting God's Word just because we don't like him. Most I talk with think Dr. Gaines and the committee were and are correct with the Word that the man preaches and teaches, most say that the conflicts he is facing is God at work producing a man that we will all love; we just need to give God time to complete His work.


JTB: P2P, I would disagree with you on some points of your post.



P2P:
Some are saying that Ms. Rogers most likely would not be happy any longer at Bellevue because of the changes in her own life resulting from the death of her husband. I agree because it is difficult to make adjustments to a new way of living and every change made is a reminder that the life you once had no longer exist. I love Ms. Rogers and have great sympathy and compassion for her. Watching her struggle to keep her husband's ministry healthy and alive has been difficult but at the same time I have had to accept that Dr. Roger's ministry at Bellevue is over and I believe that Ms. Rogers has accepted it and it was time for her to move on.


JTB: I think Mrs. Rogers is well mature enough emotionally & spiritually to understand and handle the changes that SG is doing. I do not for one skinny minute believe she wants to keep DR ministry going like it was. Only DR could do that. She wasn't trying to keep DR ministry alive. That is silly. I believe Mrs. Rogers has issues with SG like a lot of us. Mrs. Rogers is just too godly of a woman to put up with all the junk and disrespect thrown at her. The real reason Mrs Rogers left is between her and God.

P2P:
I continue to attend Bellevue and watching our church go through the exchange of leadership has been very difficult but I believe that God is in control and I believe that Dr. Gaines is the right person to lead Bellevue into a mission minded congregation that will reach out to make a difference in Memphis and the surrounding area.


JTB: I am still a member as well but most all change is difficult. It is really difficult if you don't care for the sheep you are trampling on while you make those changes. You are correct in saying that God is in control. I don't believe that SG is the right man to lead the church. I believe according to scripture, that he has disqualified himself to lead BBC.
I don't understand your statement that SG will lead BBC to be a mission-minded church. Where have you been for the last 32 years? Bellevue HAS BEEN a very Christ-centered, mission-minded church with TREMENDOUS impact here and around the world. I don't see SG leading BBC down that path. I hope I am wrong. Time will tell.

P2P:
I remember Dr. Rogers with deep love and praise to God for all the years he translated the Word of God into words that I could understand. So far I can say that Dr. Gaines has the same gift; I know some on here will disagree.
We don't have to like the person who stands behind the pulpit but please lets not accuse a man of distorting God's Word just because we don't like him. Most I talk with think Dr. Gaines and the committee were and are correct with the Word that the man preaches and teaches, most say that the conflicts he is facing is God at work producing a man that we will all love; we just need to give God time to complete His work.


JTB: Dr. Rogers might have had the "gift" as you call it to explain scriptures so everyone can understand it but I truly believe that it was the annointing of the Holy Spirit. Two different things. When Dr. Rogers spoke at his retirement service, he didn't preach, he just gave an invitation. I saw many come to Christ, including several children. That was the annointing of the Holy Spirit. A lost man can explain things so a 2 year old can understand. The Holy Spirit will impart God's Word to His people with an understanding of what is being preached. To some, Steve can speak well, I don't see the same annointing.

You are correct in saying that we don't have to like the man behind the pulpit but P2P, there are multiple times Steve has misused scripture, ignoring the correct interpretations, and misapplied scripture to fit what he wanted to say. As a "trained" pastor myself, you just don't do that.

I am not sure what you mean when you say that" the most I talk with think SG & the committee were and are correct with the Word that the man preaches and teaches. I think you can tell by the thousands that have left...they all disagree. If it is true that the majority stayed, please remember, the majority isn't always right. I.E.see the crucifiction of Jesus, See the story of Noah, Ect.

You say that "most say that the conflicts he(SG) is facing is God at work producing a man that we will all love" While I understand what you are saying, I am not sure I agree with you...totally. Steve brought most of the conflict upon himself because of his sin. There are consequenses to sin, especially when you are the pastor. God holds pastors and those in leadership to a much higher standard. Violate that holy standard, consequences will happen.

Most mis-interpret it as "I am being persecuted for my faith" when in fact, they are suffering the consequences of their sin. God will not bless a preacher/church who lacks love towards others and is prideful and harbors sin.
Your last statement "we just need to give God time to complete His work".

God will complete His work regardless of what we do. Like I said before, BBC & SG are a small part of God's plan. God doesn't need BBC or SG.

SG & BBC need God's blessings & the bible shows us how to find favor with God.

Thanks for you post P2P.

32yrs@bbc said...

I don't believe we are murmuring in our tents.
-------------------
gmommy,
That was out of line and I did not mean to offend. Please forgive me.
I do not want to add to the hurt and grief that you as well as so many are experiencing. I guess my premise is that those who have decided to stay should realize that "the dye is cast." I see only two choices: 1.) stay and go along with the new BBC; 2) leave and find a new church home. JMO

amazed said...

32Yrs@BBC: My mistake, your 7:53 AM post surely sounded like someone that was staying put.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I don't have a tent. It's too cold in Minnesota.

amazed said...

NBBCOF: It's cold already?

Housewife said...

One more thing I forgot to mention:

p2p said...

he translated the Word of God into words that I could understand.


BT also love to make a big deal about preaching the Word of God in simplified terms she could understand.

BTW, not everyone needs God's Word to be preached in such basic terms, so little children could understand. Some eventually need meat.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that some people do need more simplified words and there will always be a mix of such needs. But if a preacher doesn't always use simplified terms, it doesn't indicate a lack of God-given talent or that he can't minister to his church.

Housewife said...

32yrs said...

I see only two choices: 1.) stay and go along with the new BBC; 2) leave and find a new church home. JMO

4:20 PM, September 11, 2007


How about... 3) Stay and fight for what is just and Scriptually right. 4) Leave for the sake of your family's Spiritual health but continue to fight for what is just and Scriptually right.

1 and 2 sound a lot like "Shut up or leave." Are they still denying the PDL transition? Hmmm.

MOM4 said...

P2P,
You (and BT) are treading where angels fear to trod. Attributing the things of man and the world to acts of God is dangerous ground.
You (both) need to NOT go there girlfriend!

Get in the Word so you'll know the difference.

oc said...

Concernerdsbcer said:
"In early December 2004, an article in the Commercial Appeal about the retirement of Dr. Rogers mentioned Steve Gaines as a possible replacement. Steve called the head of the search committee, Chuck Taylor, who told him that out of 170 candidates they'd narrowed the list down to five and that he was one of the five. He said he told Chuck to just take his name off the list. "Now your list is four," he said he told him."

So why didn't the committee respct his word and mark him off the list?


oc says:
Yeah. Great question. What is the answer? I want to know too. Why wouldn't they scratch him off the list after his demand to do so? Did they not respect his gift of discernment? Or did they think that he did not have that particular gift? If so, why would they want someone with no discernment stand in the pulpit and attempt to shepherd that church? Hmmmm.

But I also want to know whether this was this an honest attempt by SG to stay where he was, or was this a manipulation tactic to garner more buckies $$$$$$$?

More and more I'm thinkin'.....
And just sayin',
oc.

amazed said...

Another thought that comes to mind is the power brokers on the search committee were more than willing to give SG an obscene salary in order to assure their place in the pecking order. The old "you scratch my back and I will scratch yours" way of doing things is still alive and well. Why would a clear thinking church member support such an arangement?

larry said...

I guess my premise is that those who have decided to stay should realize that "the dye is cast." I see only two choices: 1.) stay and go along with the new BBC; 2) leave and find a new church home. JMO

32years,
I'm still trying to get caught up on who's said what on the blog, but I'm convinced that you are a person of integrity and grace.

You said your post was 'just my opinion', and I for one think your opinion showed great wisdom and courage. Each of us should feel free to share our own thoughts among our fellow Christians, and I hope that you will continue to do so in the future.

Many blessings to you.

email

venetianjigsaw said...

Good evening. I read the blog periodically, but this is my first post. Let me first say that my family and I have not been on any side since all the misfortunes began almost two years ago. We know of people on both sides, but chose to let the Lord lead us. We attended for almost 10 years and really loved the people and the pastor, but now find that we cannot support a chuch that appears to be heading in a different direction. It seems as though what was once a conservative church is now heading more to the center, or to the moderate side. We were not raised like that. Maybe this is a result of the PDC that I have read several speak of. I don't know, but what I do know is there is a "hitch in my spirit" and things are not right at Bellevue. I don't want to rehash all the things that have happened over the last two years, but the thing that was the last straw is the gall of the administration to take the "heart set" if you don't like it, then leave. A good friend of mine was a deacon at Bellevue. Once he started asking questions of the upper "echelon" and why decisions were being made the way they were (e.g. had to do w/ the way business meetings were to be conducted), he was told if he did not like it, then leave. I remember early on when this was said, not long after Pastor Gaines came to Bellevue. We just thought he meant those, in the congregation, that would "sit, sulk and sour". But apparently this is not the case. Another thought came to me and that is, if everything is okay at Bellevue, then why is Mrs. Rogers attending other churches? Doesn't make alot of since to leave a church where that her husband poured his life into as well as the wonderful relationships that were established.

We have started visiting other churches and have ran in to several former members. The next church we are going to visit is Independent Presbyterian on Walnut Grove. Has anyone been there and can they please pass along the overall experience? Years ago, I attended a Presbyterian church (PCA) in another city and REALLY loved it. Additionally, are there any Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches in the area (almost feel like I'm looking for a new job). Thank you (anyone) for passing along any info that you wish to share. We will continue to pray for Bellevue and hope that one day, she will return to the church she once was.

Blessings to you all...

In Him

venetian_jigsaw

sickofthelies said...

BT er uh, R2D2 ( from starwars), er, uh, p2P

Me thinks you need some oil..you're getting a little rusty...

Get your head out of the sand.

gmommy said...

Vjig.
I have an email from Amos...who used to post here all the time with scripture....about a fund, Baptist church...too tired tonight to dig the name out but I will.
I don't know if Independent is PCA....?
I am going to River Oaks on GT (PCA)and love it...I have known nothing but Baptist .

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
I don't have a tent. It's too cold in Minnesota.

amazed said...
NBBCOF: It's cold already?

It is always cold in Minnesota. Who needs a tent in a basement anyway??

Junkster said...

Ezekiel,
I completely agree with your post at 10:18 PM, September 10, 2007.

Junkster said...

Lin,
I completely agree with your posts at 9:11 AM, September 11, 2007 and 9:13 AM, September 11, 2007.

I also think it is interesting that you made a post at exactly 9:11 on 9/11. You probably couldn't have done that if you had tried!

aslansown said...

Jigsaw:
Independant is a PCA church but is currently without a senior pastor. I have heard the preaching and teaching of some of the other pastors and find them to have great depth. My recommendation would be for you to visit Riveroaks and First Evan before Second Pres. BTW, my daughter and son-in-law attend Second pres.

New BBC Open Forum said...

vj wrote:

"The next church we are going to visit is Independent Presbyterian on Walnut Grove."

This is the church Donna Gaines' sister, Julie Rosenberger, is a member of. According to this, she coordinates their "WOC Prayer Ministry."

Julie Rosenberger and her daughter attended BBC's so-called "business" meeting on March 25th. They both voted on every single motion, in spite of not being BBC members. It had been announced that only BBC members could vote (which should have been obvious to everyone). After the vote to adjourn the meeting prematurely, she turned to a nearby group of BBC members, none of whom had provoked her in any way and remarked, "You are not a part of the ministry of this church, and it's time for you to go."

Of course this isn't an indictment of Independent Presbyterian, but IMO it doesn't speak too highly of their standards for the director for their "WOC Prayer Ministry."

sickofthelies said...

Here is the FACEBOOK profile for
CS, taken straight from his page:

If CS doesn't want this stuff published for the world to see, then he shouldn't put it on here.

Pay particular attention to INTERESTS: one of them says,
"hanging out with middle schoolers"


In a message dated 9/6/2007 12:04:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Contact Info
Emails:

AIM: CaptainCary123
Mobile:
Current Address:
Bartlett, TN 38135

Personal Info
Activities: Home, Church, School, Work
Interests: Church stuff, Hanging out with middle schoolers, Watching your TENNESEE TITANS work their way to the Super Bowl, Drinking Dr. Pepper, Watching people for no reason (you learn A LOT about life by doing this), Spying, Plotting stuff
Favorite Music: Michael W. Smith, Casting Crowns, Chris Rice, Rich Mullins, MercyMe, Aaron Shust, Matthew West
Favorite TV Shows: Spongebob Squarepants, Fairlyodd Parents, Suite Life of Zach and Cody, Hannah Montana, Without A Trace, Veggiestales, 24, Numb3rs
Favorite Movies: Toy Story, The Lion King, Spiderman, The Time Machine, Remember the Titans
Favorite Books: The Bible
Favorite Quotes: *coming soon*
About Me: I am a real quiet person until you get to know me...then I can get really obnoxious. I am very unique and am a one-of-a-kind person. You will find no one else in this world like me.

You either love me or you hate me. There are no in-betweens. You know which category you fall into and so do I. If you don't like me, that's cool with me. Just leave me alone and I'll leave you alone.

I also have the memory of an elephant. I never forget anything.

Housewife said...

Has anyone asked DG's sister why she voted at the meeting? And why she said that to those who WERE members? I wonder if anyone has tried to ask her that in the email provided on that page... Just wondering....

What would be the penalty for asking such a question? Fence jumping? Having SG put his arm around your shoulder while he whispers in your ear so nobody else can hear? Something like, "That never happened"? How about Hezbollah-yelling phone calls? What about SG demanding that people with questions, "Touch NOT his (SG's) annointed"? Hmmm. Just wondering.

I know, I shouldn't ask too many questions.

New BBC Open Forum said...

SOTL,

On March 26th, CS wrote to me:

"I am wrongly being accused of being 'Bob Barker' and as a result of that, other things are being said about me. In previous posts, SOTL has referred to me as being 'attracted to jr. highers.'"

"Hanging out with"... "attracted to"... hmmm. Not much difference that I can see.

From Sunday's Bellevue Today comes this:

Parent Open House -- There will be a Parent Open House next Sunday morning (September 16th) at all three Bible Fellowship hours for the parents of 6th, 7th, 9th, and 11th grade students. Report to your student's assembly area to begin: 6th grade to Area 6, 7th grade to The Crossing, 9th grade to The Edge, and 11th grade to the Upper Room.

Every parent of a 6th grader needs to attend this thing and LOUDLY protest someone like this being a teacher. Then they need to take their children and run!

New BBC Open Forum said...

junk wrote:

"It is always cold in Minnesota. Who needs a tent in a basement anyway??"

Exactly.

oc said...

SOTL,

"Interests: Church stuff, Hanging out with middle schoolers,..."
and etc. Including Spongebob.


Again, how old is this person?
Has a psych eval been done?

oc said...

junk wrote:

"It is always cold in Minnesota. Who needs a tent in a basement anyway??"

oc says:
No, no, no. NASS lives in the basement of a tenament, not a tent in a basement.

PS. And bless his little pea pickin' heart, he moved to Minnesota in an attempt to become more 'spiritual'. As if living in St.Paul would make him St.Paul. Kinda like going to church makes one a Christian....
Poor fella...

New BBC Open Forum said...

oc,

Aack! Thpt!!!

Churchmouse said...

You guys are so punny. =)

ezekiel said...

Reading Numbers 13 and 14 this morning, several things that parallel the current condition at BBC and "religious" folk today came to mind.

In Numbers 13 we see the spies going into the land of Canaan. They encountered the giants there and were afraid to go in. Sounds a lot like us when we encounter the giant sin in our lives. God promised us rest....salvation, but we have to get rid of the sin in our lives. We have to conquer the Giants. We have to obey the commandments. And the only way we can do that is if God is with us, and fights for us. Kills the sin in us.

Oh but we are a rebellious lot! Just like Israel in Numbers 14:1-4. We have appointed us a leader to return to Egypt....Then we see how our children will pay the price. (Numbers 14:18,33) We are banished to the wilderness for 40 years. Numbers 14:34)

Then after a strong rebuke, the judgment of the wilderness and all...We just up and decide that we are going on in anyway. (Num 14:40-45)
We are going to do it our way. We don't need to get rid of the sin in our lives, we don't need to follow the commandments. We are sinners now, always will be, no need to change what we are doing. After all SG is on TV these days telling us that God loves us just like we are......

I don't know about you.... but it sure sounds a lot like sheep trying to get into the fold by any other means than the Gate....

Truett said...

Friends,

Wow what a Roller Coaster Belleview has been on! I think there's more twists and turns to come.
First a disclaimer, then some observations.

I loved Dr. Rogers as much as anyone, and believe he was without question the most accomplished Pastor, Preacher, Statesman and Church builder of modern times. Loving, warm, gregarious, kind.....decidedly a man of God.

Observations.

1. While not directly telling the pulpit committee who to call, he did influence them in a general way.

2. For whatever reason (Dr. Rogers, was convinced prior to Dr. Gaines arrival) that he was a humble, Godly, effective leader, who could carry on the work at Bellevue.

3. In the words of Gomer Pile… Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....Dr. Gaines in fact is a Strong handed Autocratic Leader....who disregarded the legacy and ministry of Dr. Rogers, i.e. Jim Whitmire etc.

4. Dr. Gaines....will not be moved...he is the “ Pam Spray” Pastor...nothing sticks.....after all the faux paus in the last 24 months He still is at the helm...why?

5. Because for whatever reason God is allowing it

6. Bellevue because of their history of having great leadership......erred in not having solid Bylaws....without them....there is no earthly way to challenge Dr. Gaines many miscues.

7. Many of Bellevue’s people so used to being loved and cared for by the Senior Pastor's of the past.....have ( My opinion) refused to believe that in fact the emperor has no clothes.

8. Dr. Gaines will not resign....because there is no way (Bylaws and Constitution) to challenge him...none, at least officially.

9. He knows that there is no place ( Given His history) that would be available should he leave....Mega Churches don't grow on trees, nor do Mega salaries.....He will ( In my Opinion) never leave....unless some cushy Convention job comes along.

10. I believe Mrs. Rogers, sweet saintly woman...left because she suffers no fools.....why watch one of the greatest Churches in the history of the SBC be decimated because of striking arrogance and incompetence....and the timid refusal of present deacons to do anything about it.....

In summary, be thankful that for a season you shared a season in the path of the Roger's family.....but sadly that season has past forever!

New BBC Open Forum said...

truett,

Very well put. All valid points. Thank you!

concernedSBCer said...

Ezekiel: Good post. Haven't the people ALWAYS been trying to find another way in? NARROW is the gate and few that will find it......

I think there's this whole prideful mindset that people don't want to be obedient to God, they don't want to follow Him; instead they want to be a partner, an equal. Because, after all, what if God wants them to do (or not do) something they want to?

SG wanted "HIS" church, not to be God's servant in GOD'S church. The committee apparently wanted THEIR man, not necessarily God's man.

It's all about pride.

searchingfortruthatbbc said...

truett - wonderful and insightful post! My sentiments exactly! Although Dr. Rogers was a godly man and wonderful leader, I never expected it to last forever. I was one who stood the day they presented Dr. Gaines, but in the words of Barney Fife, I am ready to "nip it in the bud!"

New BBC Open Forum said...

searching,

For you. :-)

imaresistor said...

I just think Mrs. Rogers left for the same reason multitudes of others have and are still doing...she just simply couldn't take it anymore.

She would just have to be asked why...and I would think she is too much a lady to respond. I would also think she would follow the advice she knows her husband would have given her...

imaresistor said...

Truett...

"5. Because for whatever reason God is allowing it"

Or...perhaps He left the building.

I heard Paul Washer in a talk I downloaded from Sermon Audio.com recently say that many churches out there today, nice red brick buildings he said, are merely attics for bats. :) I know many, many churches out there today myself that are no more than attics for bats. I thought he summed it up beautifully.

imaresistor said...

Concerned...said, "It's all about pride."

Amen!

sickofthelies said...

NASS said:

Every parent of a 6th grader needs to attend this thing and LOUDLY protest someone like this being a teacher. Then they need to take their children and run!

12:25 AM, September 12

SOTL says;

If you know a parent of a sixth grader, copy and paste his profile and take it to the parent. Let the parent decide for himself if it is normal for a 21 y/o man to list one of his interests as hanging out with middle schoolers. Let the parent decide if he/she feels it is normal for a grown man to list " teeny bopper" shows on his profile.

If the parent has no problem with it, so be it. At least you have educated them. The leadership doesn't seem to care.

johnthebaptist said...

From Baptist Press....If only every Minister of Music was as humble and godly....


Music minister James Whitmire
ends retirement
By Joni B. Hannigan


JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (BP)--Making good on an invitation first offered nearly 40
years ago, James Whitmire finally is leading worship at First Baptist Church in
Jacksonville, Fla.

Whitmire, 68, is best known as the music minister at the Memphis-area Bellevue
Baptist Church in Tennessee, where he served from 1975-2005 with the late Adrian
Rogers and became known for his annual "Singing Christmas Tree."

Whitmire first was invited to join First Baptist Jacksonville's staff in 1969 by
then-pastor Homer Lindsay Sr., but Whitmire felt led to continue working with
Rogers when they were at First Baptist Church in Merritt Island, Fla.

In 1975, just as he was leaving to join Rogers in his new post at Bellevue,
Whitmire was invited again, this time by Homer Lindsay Jr., who had assumed the
Jacksonville pastorate after his father.

When Whitmire received a third invitation from First Baptist Jacksonville --
from senior pastor Mac Brunson last spring -– he was ready. He assumed his new
role as executive pastor of worship Aug. 26.

No matter that Whitmire, a father of six with 12 grandchildren, was formally
retired.

"How wonderful that God gave me another chance," Whitmire told the Florida
Baptist Witness. Obviously "the timing just wasn't right" the first two times,
he said.

Noting that Brunson is following in the same line as the Lindsays and former
senior pastor Jerry Vines, Whitmire said, "It is a blessing to see that God is
still raising up great, great preachers. Jacksonville is so blessed to have that
heritage. Mac loves people and I thought it was a blessing from the Lord to give
me another chance to work with a great man."

Whitmire also credited former minister of music Rodney Brooks, who is now
serving at First Baptist Church in Atlanta, with leaving behind a rich heritage
of music leadership.

"I want to be a blessing to people," Whitmire said. "The music program is so
wonderful. I don't want anything to happen to it on my watch."

Whitmire also is well-known for having served on the committees for five
hymnals, spanning a period of 40-plus years for three different publishers, and
for introducing the concept of banners bearing the names of God to the Southern
Baptist Convention annual meetings. He has led choir tours to 38 states and 13
foreign countries.

At Bellevue, Whitmire said more than 100,000 decisions for Christ were recorded
in 30 years of ministry, with nearly 5,000 people enrolled in choirs and musical
programs at the church.

Not denying what he called his God-given "strength" in producing elaborate
performances, Whitmire reminded those who might think he intends to bring
Bellevue's program to Jacksonville, "Every church doesn't have to do what
another church does. A man's got to be wise in learning the church and seeing
how God leads in that....

"I don't want to be so crusted in the past that I can't learn. I want to be a
blessing to Mac Brunson, too. I just want to be the man that listens to what God
says, and not in the direction I've gone with another pastor."

And as for worship styles, Whitmire reflected, "When you are starting out at a
new church, you can be as edgy as you want to because you are creating your own
tradition. But when you go to a large church like Bellevue or like First Baptist
Jacksonville, you have thousands of people. You don't just minister to the youth
or to the senior adults."

Calling a "blended" repertoire best for established churches, Whitmire said he
believes Scripture teaches congregations to worship through hymns, psalms and
spiritual songs. Hymns sing "about the Trinity and teach doctrine," he said.
Psalms are for Scripture memory and spiritual songs are new songs that tell
about people's experiences with God.

"We need all of those," he said.

A focus on Jesus, and not on worship styles, can bring people of all ages, races
and backgrounds together in worship, Whitmire emphasized.

"No one minister of music is going to do it all perfectly," he said, "but this
one is going to try, and I pray that I do."
--30-—
Joni B. Hannigan is managing editor of the Florida Baptist Witness, online at
www.floridabaptistwitness.com.

Churchmouse said...

truett, Thanks for the post.

Lwood said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
searching,

For you. :-)

11:41 AM, September 12, 2007

Nass
Love the bumper sticker...Where do you come up with all these pics??Maybe we can order them and pass them out. From the DARK SIDE BLOG there seems to still be so few of us that are stiring up trouble for the POOR Pastor Steve Maybe they would be surprised to see how many people that want a bumper sticker:)
I don't post often but keep up on the blog...Thanks for keeping us up on things...There are still a lot of us that are trying to decide what to do and where to go..

Housewife said...

Just one question. I thought the problem wasn't necessarily that we don't have bylaws but that SG and his cronies won't let us see them. They want them hidden so nobody can act against SG.

Please educate me on this. =)

Lin said...

Lin,
I completely agree with your posts at 9:11 AM, September 11, 2007 and 9:13 AM, September 11, 2007.

I also think it is interesting that you made a post at exactly 9:11 on 9/11. You probably couldn't have done that if you had tried!

11:18 PM, September 11, 2007

Junk, you are cracking me up with your time/date reference to our other comments . Are you an engineer by any chance?

You didn't know? I timed the comment perfectly. Am I good or what? :o|

Lin said...

Truett, Your points are right on target. Every single one of them.

What I can not understand about all of this is why there was no succession plan in place years before...such as mentoring an associate pastor to take over?

whitey said...

Why don't we DEMAND meetings with the youth ministers to get ACE kicked out of a teaching position?

Isn't he also involved with the music ministry and teaching children violen? We should DEMAND a meeting with the people in charge of that too.

Or have people tried that already?

New BBC Open Forum said...

whitey,

It's my understanding more than one person spoke with Phil Newberry and David Houpt -- to no avail. PN told one person to "deal with it" because "ace" had signed the covenant, he would remain a teacher, and that the person was never to discuss the subject with anyone else. Who exactly does PN think he is anyway?!

Truett said...

Friends,

Thank you for your feedback, like you I am nauseated with the Belleview ordeal.

In reference to the Bylaws....they (As I understand) are a scant one page in length....no provision what so ever for dealing with staff issues.

With the legacy of great pastors, it seems you have had since 1903, a Tacit agreement...meaning an agreement in place, in the absence of something official.....fine and dandy when it's Godly leaders at the helm...who are true under-shepherds....and have a sense of accountability to God's people.

I heard Dr. Rogers say one time...that " He served at the pleasure of the Church, and they could fire him at any moment"

He even joked about one Pastor subscribing to the Position of Pastoral rule....he said the Congregation canceled his subscription :)

No way, that would happen at Bellevue unless a large group of leaders said enough is enough!

Personally I doubt they could stomach the challenge of facing your current Pastor.

The only way I see relief, is when the money runs out.....as I understand your utility bill is $75.000 a month.....when the Church feels the squeeze something might give.....when the people stop….giving.

If there is a silver lining and there is.....Bellevue serves as an alarming warning to Churches of all sizes, a Cordova neon sign...that Pulpit Committees, you had better do your home work.....or suffer in frustration.

Less you think I am being too hard on Dr. Gaines.

I truly feel that the people of Belleview had ample room in their heart for him.....

but when you come in like a bull in a China shop....tossing out history like excess baggage, Kicking Jim Whitmire to the curb (Hmmm not relevant for Belleview, but a fine fit for First Jacksonville) ...belittling Deacons who come sincerely wanting to work things out only to be told..." I am not going to do anything you have requested" .... you’re up a creek!

I think many people who remain have done so...because they have so many friendships and memories of what once was.

And bottom line is this....given the timidity of your deacon body, the lack of a binding bylaws to deal with abject insubordination.....there is no recourse...other than to pray (And that's all that matters anyway in the grand scheme of things) that God will do what is needed for everyone involved.

New BBC Open Forum said...

truett wrote:

"Bellevue serves as an alarming warning to Churches of all sizes, a Cordova neon sign...that Pulpit Committees, you had better do your home work.....or suffer in frustration."

I'm not sure BBC's most recent pulpit committee is suffering or frustrated at all. They seem to have gotten just what they wanted.

BBC 11yrs said...

Questions:

1 - In all of our prayers, why is God not bringing a conclusion to this junk?

2 - Why is He not straightening out the mess at BBC?

oc said...

bbc 11 yrs wrote:

Questions:

1 - In all of our prayers, why is God not bringing a conclusion to this junk?

2 - Why is He not straightening out the mess at BBC?


Are questions 1 and 2 the same question?

oc said...

bbc 11 yrs wrote:

1 - In all of our prayers, why is God not bringing a conclusion to this junk?


Reply:
A question pondered for a couple of thousand years....and to which our hearts still cry out...
Come Lord Jesus. Come.

Psalm 43:3 said...

James Merritt preached a good sermon (Mark 4:35-41) on this yesterday at Mid-America during their Adrian Rogers Center for Biblical Preaching Conference. His basic idea was that Jesus is with us during storms and sometimes even leads us into storms to show His power. If the disciples had only listened to Jesus closely before the storm arose, they would have heard him say “Let us pass over unto the other side” before they got into the boat. Jesus knew the storm was coming but also knew that He was powerful enough to take them through the crisis. Get the CD- it has application to troubled hearts on this blog.

allofgrace said...

BBC 11yrs said...

Questions:

1 - In all of our prayers, why is God not bringing a conclusion to this junk?

2 - Why is He not straightening out the mess at BBC?


"...who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:.."

We have have our desires and purposes, but God's purposes reign...he doesn't invite us into his secret counsels, and even if he did, we couldn't understand it.

Scion said...

Perhaps God is not "straightening out the mess" at Bellevue yet because He is not done with Bellevue.

Perhaps the mess isn't God's responsibility to straighten out, but instead the responsibility of the church themselves.

It wasn't God's fault that the leadership of Bellevue has fallen into darkness, and been consumed by their own pride.

Perhaps Bellevue still needs to be humbled. Perhaps Bellevue still needs to be brought to her knees, to beg for mercy, forgiveness, and grace.

Perhaps Bellevue still needs to be broken, before it can be truly healed.

Nothing lasts forever, and nothing should. Perhaps the days of the megachurches are finally drawing to a close.

Perhaps now, instead of glorifying themselves in a "mansion" of a church, the saints of God can go forth to the community and evangelize the lost, and thereby build "mansions of gold" in heaven.

ezekiel said...

Welcome back Scion! Assume you are safe and well?

Lynn said...

New BBC Open Forum said...

whitey,

It's my understanding more than one person spoke with Phil Newberry and David Houpt -- to no avail. PN told one person to "deal with it" because "ace" had signed the covenant, he would remain a teacher, and that the person was never to discuss the subject with anyone else. Who exactly does PN think he is anyway?!

4:49 PM, September 12, 2007


Didn't parents cause Ace's soccer team to get disbanded because they didn't want him coaching them on how to be soccer hooligans?

concernedSBCer said...

Scion! Great Post! Glad to see you are back! :)

sickofthelies said...

lynn asked:

Didn't parents cause Ace's soccer team to get disbanded because they didn't want him coaching them on how to be soccer hooligans?

10:14 PM, September 12, 2007

SOTL says:

It wasn't that they didn't want them to be soccer hooligans, but it was apparent that he had NO idea how to play soccer, much less coach it. The ONLY reason that he was out there coaching at all was becuase a VERY godly man, who had coached soccer for 7 years there had refused to sign the covenant to SG, so no matter that "ACE" aka CS did not know how to play soccer, all that mattered to the powers that be was that he signed the covenant.

The team fel apart because parents could see that it was a waste of time with CS at the helm.

whitey said...

What about the music ministry and other places he works with children?

Also, how do I change my username? I can figure it out! OLD AGE!

New BBC Open Forum said...

whitey,

Go to the Dashboard by clicking on the orange "b" in the upper lefthand corner of the front page of the blog. Then click on "Edit Profile."

Under the "Identity" section, simply change the "Display Name" to whatever you want your new screen name to be. Scroll down to the bottom of that page and click on "Save Profile."

Memphismom02 said...

I can tell you from first-hand experience that the youth ministers at BBC are totally unapproachable. When I spoke of my concerns of Ace teaching my 6th grader, I got yelled at and was told, "That's the way it is. Deal with it."

I spoke with my child's teacher explaining why we wouldn't be in her class, and I got called by a staff member who demanded to know just why I had gone and told my story. He spoke as if it were his "right" to defend Ace. Well, it's my right to warn others out there of the landmine that is waiting to go off. Parents, beware. Read Ace's pages on MySpace and Facebook. Do your homework. See what he writes about himself -- the TV shows and movies he likes (is he really that immature or is he using this as bait to trap our tweenies?); how he'll "snap your neck" if you play certain music in his presence; that he admits he is obnoxious; that he likes to "spy" and "plot stuff". How many red flags do you need???

I'm done with Bellevue and its nonsense. I feel sorry for those who are too blind or too lazy or too afraid or too stupid to realize what is happening under that roof. May God have mercy on us all. Well, I believe He has been "full of mercy and slow to wrath" these past couple of years. Satan is having a great time. But God will work out all things in His time and His way.

sickofthelies said...

Ok, guys, i NEVER EVER EVER read the blog from the dark side, but someone reported to me that this was posted over there:

FROM THE DARK SIDE:

NASS has fully endorsed SOTL's indictment of ACE, putting her own personal grudge ahead of doing and saying the right thing.

It's entirely possible that God has allowed her to gain her current 'status' to influence others, but the only thing she seems to want to do is slander a 20 year old kid.

And BTW, if SOTL really believes what she's saying why hasn't she notified DCS? Isn't knowing about abuse and not reporting it 'harboring a pedophile?' And if she doesn't believe it, why is she saying it?

SOTL SPEAKS:

Why is it that when i post CS's OWN profile that HE wrote, "I" get blamed for the content?

Are they REALLY that dense?

ALSO:

It has been brought to my attention that they are accusing me of something about a homosexual relationship between SG and JP??????????????? WHERE in the world did THAT come from?

I do recall repeating words that SG said himself about he and JP, but in NO WAY did i EVER infer that it was a homosexual relationship. EVER!!!!

Those people over there are grasping at straws to come up with THAT!!!!

If they don't like what SG says, they should take it to him, not make up a story about it and then blame me for their own dirty, sick minds.

It's the same thing with CS's profile...HE wrote it, He posted it on the World Wide Web, and then they blame ME for what he wrote about himself!!!

THat's insane!!!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

SOTL,

It's called "shooting the messenger."

sickofthelies said...

memphismom2 wrote:

Parents, beware. Read Ace's pages on MySpace and Facebook. Do your homework. See what he writes about himself -- the TV shows and movies he likes (is he really that immature or is he using this as bait to trap our tweenies?); how he'll "snap your neck" if you play certain music in his presence; that he admits he is obnoxious; that he likes to "spy" and "plot stuff". How many red flags do you need???

SOTL says:

I am being told that ACE/aka CS now has his profile where it cannot be read unless he approves you...he has now added further restrictions to who gets to see what he writes...this has happened within the last couple of days..

Hmmmm...why is that? Since HE is the one that originally wrote it, why is he hiding it now?

New BBC Open Forum said...

SOTL,

No doubt the same reason he hid his MySpace page which had been visible to everyone in the world before he slipped up and outed himself.

sickofthelies said...

NASS,

Isn't he proud of what he wrote about himself? Is he not proud of who he is and how he describes his own interests?

Why run and hide now?

According to one blogger from the dark side, he states that if "I" believe what " I" wrote about CS, I should report him to DCS..

LOL...they don't seem to understand that I didn't write it..HE WROTE IT HIMSELF...I just helped him publish his OWN writing!!!

Memphismom02 said...

"SOTL says:

I am being told that ACE/aka CS now has his profile where it cannot be read unless he approves you...he has now added further restrictions to who gets to see what he writes...this has happened within the last couple of days.."

That which is hidden shall be made known...

sickofthelies said...

memphismom2

Im wondering what he is "plotting" and who is he spying on?

AND WHY???????


p.s. to the darksiders: those words were taken from HIS OWN WRITING..so don't accuse me of making them up..

amazed said...

I like what scion said about the mess at BBC perhaps isn't God's responsibility to straighten out. He is right on with that comment. Mankind has been creating messes since the beginning of time on earth. It is much easier to create a mess than to solve one.

amazed said...

Speaking of messes. Write it down--the next president of the USA will be the candidate that has the best plan for getting us out of the mess in Iraq. It will not make any difference which party they belong to.

BBC 11yrs said...

Scion,

Perhaps.

Perhaps not.

I wonder if this blog is helping bring an end to the mess at BBC?

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

I wonder if the anti-information shared is honoring God or man?

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

I wonder if God is waiting for us to get out of the way so He can move among us all?

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

I wonder if we sleep well at night because we made our point against the other side and chalked one up for getting the last word in?

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

I wonder if our fellowship is more man made than God ordained?

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Is this all I will say.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

concernedSBCer said...

Where is everyone?????

oc said...

OK brothers and sisters in Christ.
Are you there?
Please don't tell me the Rapture happened.....
please.....



Just prayin'.
oc.

concernedSBCer said...

Is anyone keeping up with what Putin in doing in Russia? I find it pretty interesting......

sickofthelies said...

concernedsbcer

I find it VERY interesting, since Iran and Russia have become so chummy...We sure don't need those two countries teaming up and making trouble for Israel.

But whatever is going to happen, God already knows about it.

So no point in worrying.

Scion said...

bbc 11yrs said:

I wonder if this blog is helping bring an end to the mess at BBC?

Perhaps. Perhaps not.




I would say...mostly likely not. Unfortunate, but true.

I have enjoyed this blog sometimes. I have even posted on it sometimes.

But human nature dictates that once we have made up our minds, there is usually no changing them.

I don't feel as though this blog will persuade one side to join the other, or help to heal the split in the church. I don't think that by airing our grievances, we can all be restored and things will be as they once were.

My personal opinion is that the days of Bellevue as we all knew it (and I have known it for 31 years) are over. Things have changed, and will never be the same.

Change can be good, though. And nature shows that some of the most beautiful changes are those caused with the most pain and chaos.

Birth isn't a peaceful process. It causes bleeding, ripping, tearing. It causes pain. Even the butterfly struggles to free itself from the cocoon.

But every newborn being, great or small, is beautiful.

So perhaps, in some way or another, this blog will help to bring an end to the mess. Or at the very least, help some to realize that instead of words, it is now the time for deeds.

After all, actions speak louder than words.

eprov said...

the viability of 'the blog'.....
I think the 'inner workings' of the organized church were empowered by hampering the ability to address concerns. The monthly business meetings did provide a venue in smaller churches. However with the concentration of power moving toward a deacon group in larger churches and then the deacon group empowering the pastor, any desire to have a viable platform could effectively be negated. And has been in many churches.
Good or bad??? Could be either depending on the credibility of the issue. But that becomes a subjective call.
I have chosen no 'side' in this issue. The only agenda should be the advancement of the cause of Christ.
Good men (emphasis on the good) will want to come to a 'meeting of the minds' on divisive issues.
Questionable actions arise when the issues are power and control.

Karen said...

Hello All,

I got a new JOB! I started this week so I've been super busy and I won't be able to post during the day much, but I'm still here! :)

Today's LWF devotional is just an example on how the "amen" dream could have been better resolved. Dr. Rogers still speaks through LWF and I'm very glad to have the daily devotionals:

September 14

BIBLE MEDITATION:
“Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever.” Revelation 7:12

DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT:
I heard about a man who got a little excited in a church. He kept shouting, “Praise the Lord!” One day, some of the brethren called on him while he was plowing his fields. When they were finished talking, he hung his head and said, “I know it’s the truth. I have disturbed the services, but, you know I sit there and think what the Lord has done for me . . . how He died in agony and blood for me upon the cross...how He’s forgiven all of my sins...how He’s filled me with the spirit and...here, hold this mule while I shout!” If being a Christian and going to heaven doesn’t excite you, you have calluses on your soul. It’s exciting to know the Lord Jesus Christ!

ACTION POINT:
When was the last time you raised your hands and shouted “Praise the Lord!” Maybe right now is a good time!

concernedSBCer said...

Karen: Congratulations on your new job!

We missed you at the last Bowling Party. What happened?????

concernedSBCer said...

Eprov: I think even larger churches should have open business meetings. I realize that it's a little more difficult, but you are right...."good" men will want that and will want meeting of the minds.

Karen said...

concerned,

Thanks for missing me - I have to email you and I will in a sec. My computer guy had come by late that day and STAYED FOREVER! So me and hubby sat on the couch after he left and didn't move much that night. I'll synchonize my secret decoder watch for next time!

karen

michelle mann said...

Hey Karen - CONGRATULATIONS on your new job! I don't know where you were working previously, but it sounds like you've taken a step up... you said you have a new 'JOB!', rather than a new 'job'.

And thank you for the Love Worth Finding devotional. That really spoke to me this morning!

concernedSBCer said...

Hellllllloooooo?????

Are you guys bowling and forgot to invite me????

oc said...

Concernedsbcer,

If they forgot you, they also forgot me.

It haunts me.....maybe Rapture?

But something comforts me. It can't be the Rapture. You, my best friend, are still here.

Thank you and thanks to my blogging buddies in Christ who just love.
That's what you and they do best, and whatever else ya'll may do, you still love. No one can put a price on that. Priceless.
You have made a big difference in this disciple's life. Thank you.


Just sayin'.
oc.

gmommy said...

No fun tonight on the blog. Going to bed now.
Sleep tight...don't let the bed bugs bite.
Praying blessings for our blog friends and those they love.

ezekiel said...

Spurgeon…..could his words be any more current or applicable?

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a very fearless gospel. It is the very reverse of that pretty thing called "modern charity."

The last created devil is "modern charity." "Modern charity" goes cap in hand round to us all, amid it says "You are all right, every one of you. Do not quarrel any longer; Sectarianism is a horrid thing, down with it! down with it!" and so it tries to induce all sorts of persons to withhold a part of what they believe, to silence the testimony of all Christians upon points wherein they differ.


I believe that that thing called Sectarianism now-a-days is none other than true honesty. Be a Sectarian, my brother, be profoundly a Sectarian. I mean by that, hold everything which you see to be in God's Word with a tighter grasp, and do not give up even the little pieces of truth.

At the same time, let that Sectarianism which makes you hate another man because he does not see with you—let that be far from you! but never consent to that unholy league and covenant which seems to be rife throughout our country, which would put a padlock on the mouth of every man and send us all about as if we were dumb: which says to me, "You must not speak against the errors of such a Church," and to another, "You must not reply."

We cannot but speak! If we did not, the stones in the street might cry out against us. That kind of charity is unknown to the gospel. Now hear the Word of God! "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; he that believeth not"—What? "shall get to heaven some other way?"—"shall be damned;" that is the gospel. You perceive how boldly it launches out its censure. It does not pretend, "you may reject me and go by another road, and at last get safely to your journey's end!" No, no, no; you "shall be damned" it says.

Do you not perceive how Christ puts it? Some teachers come into the world and say to all others, "Yes, gentlemen, by your leave, you are all right, I have a point or two that you have not taught, just make room for me; I will not turn you out; I can stand in the same temple as yourself." But hear what Christ says:—"All that ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them."

Hear what his servant Paul says, "Though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you,"—what then? "Let him be excused for his mistake?" No; but, "Let him he accursed." Now, this is strong language, but mark you, this is just how the Christian ought to live. As the gospel is very fearless in what it has to say, so let the Christian always be.

It strikes me that a "living" which becomes the gospel of Christ, is always a bold and fearless kind of living. Some people go crawling through the world as if they asked some great man's leave to live. They do not know their own minds; they take their words out of their mouths and look at them, and ask a friend or two's opinion. "What do you think of these words?" and when these friends censure them they put them in again and will not say them. Like jelly-fish, they have no backbone.

Now God has made men upright, and it is a noble thing for a man to stand erect on his own feet; and it is a nobler thing still for a man to say that in Christ Jesus he has received that freedom which is freedom indeed, and therefore he will not be the slave of any man.

"O God," says David, "I am thy servant, for thou hast loosed my bonds." Happy is he whose bonds are loosed! Let your eye be like that of an eagle, yea, let it he brighter still; let it never be dimmed by the eye of any other man. Let your heart be like that of the lion, fearless, save of yourself:—

"Careless, myself a dying man,
Of dying men's esteem,"

—I must live as in the sight of God, as I believe I should live, and then let man say his best or say his worst, and it shall he no more than the chirping of the grasshopper, when the sun goeth down. "Who art thou that thou shouldst be afraid of a man that shall die, or the son of man that is but a worm?" Quit yourselves like men! Be strong! Fear not! for only so will your conversation be such as becometh the gospel of Christ.

Lynn said...

Hey Guys,

Please keep my dad in your prayers as he is recovering from gall bladder removal surgery. Thankfully they did it via laproscopic and not the old school way. He had surgery yesterday morning and is back home resting :).

Lynn

Cakes said...

Well EZ,

Can you fathom that someone might come to the conclusion that there are some matters--particularly God and what lies beyond the veil--that are beyond logical understanding and quantitative proof? Faith is a beautiful thing, and it should be respected where it is a balm to the suffering and an encouragement to compassion.

Many Christians seem to draw a line in the sand. That's why I dig my pal Cleo, a minister of music and jazz musician (hope that doesn't make him a Warrenite)here in town--he faithfully lives by his trust in Christ, and differs with me on spiritual matters; but he acknowledges too that the path I follow is not purposeless or devoid of benefit--that I am a seeker (but not very sensitive).

Martin Luther King's movement of nonviolent protest was inspired by Gandhi, who was jamming on the Hindu notion of "ahimsa." If both the Bible and the Vedas condemn killing and violence, is God the author of one and not the other.
Is the civil rights movement tainted by in influence of non-christians, 'specially (gulp) Hindus?

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, its just that if your God is as big as you say he is, and follows His own timetable, then why so much need to accentuate the differences? I've never met anyone worthy of my complete trust on the matter of spiritual truth and a path for living. I don't fret over knowing what I cannot, and favor a compassionate philosophy over soul certainty.

I agree with this fellow--be bold like a lion.

Housewife said...

Faith without/not in Christ is pointless and still/will always lead to hell. Waiting for man's example to prove anything is folly beyond measure. The only proof is Christ himself and His Word.

Who or what inspired the Civil Rights Movement changes NOTHING the Bible says about Christ and salvation through HIM ALONE.

BTW, compassion in the guise of "respect for spiritual differences" never pulled anyone out of the claws of hell either.

ezekiel said...

Cakes,

Can you fathom that someone might come to the conclusion that there are some matters--particularly God and what lies beyond the veil--that are beyond logical understanding and quantitative proof? Faith is a beautiful thing, and it should be respected where it is a balm to the suffering and an encouragement to compassion.

Yes, I can fathom.....Because scripture says so.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!


Many Christians seem to draw a line in the sand. That's why I dig my pal Cleo, a minister of music and jazz musician (hope that doesn't make him a Warrenite)here in town--he faithfully lives by his trust in Christ, and differs with me on spiritual matters; but he acknowledges too that the path I follow is not purposeless or devoid of benefit--that I am a seeker (but not very sensitive).

Many Christians draw that line based on faith in the Gospel. Some draw it out of arrogance. It sounds as if your friend has a good handle on his faith. Like him, I would acknowledge that your path is not purposeless or devoid of benefit to you. After all, if you didn’t get some kind of benefit from it, you wouldn’t waste your time, right? I think to some degree we are all seekers. We all seek meaning and a purpose that is bigger than ourselves. Having said that, I just think you are on the wrong path.

Mat 7:14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Following a powerless idol.

1 Chron 16:25For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods. 26For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.


Martin Luther King's movement of nonviolent protest was inspired by Gandhi, who was jamming on the Hindu notion of "ahimsa." If both the Bible and the Vedas condemn killing and violence, is God the author of one and not the other.
Is the civil rights movement tainted by in influence of non-Christians, 'specially (gulp) Hindus?

I have heard Ghandi referenced on several blogs, always in the context that he liked our CHRIST but did not like us Christians. Then, we liken any champion of non-violence to Jesus. The misconception can only come from those that really don't know Christ. While it can be said that He was non-violent when he walked upon the earth, (ignoring that ugly temple scene), He was/is anything but non-violent. Just search "war" and "wrath" at www.biblegateway.com and then get back with me if you still think He is a God of passive, non-violent activism.


I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, its just that if your God is as big as you say he is, and follows His own timetable, then why so much need to accentuate the differences? I've never met anyone worthy of my complete trust on the matter of spiritual truth and a path for living. I don't fret over knowing what I cannot, and favor a compassionate philosophy over soul certainty.

We see three men together in Matthew 17:3And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Each of these three men had much the same message. I posted the scripture references earlier. Basically, each tells us that it is time to decide. Time to choose who we are going to serve. As the 2nd coming looms ever nearer, it becomes even more important to accentuate the differences. Every day that goes by, we get closer to judgement day. On that day, we will all stand before Jesus and He will judge us by our deeds.

EZ 24:14"I, the LORD, have spoken; it is coming and I will act I will not relent, and I will not pity and I will not be sorry; according to your ways and according to your deeds I will judge you," declares the Lord GOD.'"

Rev 20:12,13. On that day, I would hate for a practicing Hindu to have to explain why he rejected Jesus. Or anyone else that rejects Him, including practicing Baptists.

My compassion is a result of my faith, my salvation. It is fruit that I bear as a result of being attached to the Vine. Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems your compassion is more based on works or self righteousness that you hope will result in some kind of salvation or payoff…The Bible calls it “charity”…love…For the record, I don’t really think a Baptist that practices “charity” in an effort to be a moral person…a good guy…is any better off than a Hindu practicing “charity” for the same reason.

The only One worthy of your trust (faith) in spiritual truth and correct path is Jesus. After all, He became flesh and walked among us (John 1), He is the Truth, the Way and the Life.


I agree with this fellow--be bold like a lion.

It is one thing to be bold in proclaiming Jesus and Him crucified and another to be judgmental and condemning of people that are not of my faith. I hope you don’t take anything that I have said as judgmental or condemning you in any way.

I am pretty big on coffee. Email me if you would like to discuss anything over a Starbucks….If you like barbecue, I like the Barbecue Shop. You probably know where it is….

ezekiel said...

20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

22And have mercy on some, who are doubting;

23save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

24Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

25to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Cakes said...

"My compassion is a result of my faith, my salvation. It is fruit that I bear as a result of being attached to the Vine. Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems your compassion is more based on works or self righteousness that you hope will result in some kind of salvation or payoff."

Nope--can you fathom that someoneone might follow a path in which goodness, moral behavior, ethics, etc. are appreciated in and of themselves, without being prompted by hope or fear? Is hope and fear a good basis upon which to build a spiritual foundatiom?

If I become a Christian because I fear burning forever or because I want to walk the streets of gold, then I my immortal soul may be saved, but it has not done anything about my selfishness and ego-clinging.

That is why, in my experience, I have met few Christians that demonstrate genuine compassion (I feel that love here, however) and many in a hurry to tell me I'm wrong in my spiritual walk. Pride in ones faith is one thing, but contempt for another is spiritual materialism--the notion that I possess something that you don't.

EZ, in matters of faith, there is no logical or quantitative proof that God promotes a Catholic, Muslim, protestant, Mormon, Jewish rubric or any other. That's why it's called faith. So, it seems that compelling another to become a Christian always leads to the assertion that spiritual truth cannot be aquired by the weights and measures of logic or its child, rhetoric.

What is required is faith in Christ and the foundational beliefs from which it is built. Really, the only tangible in the discussion is the unquestioned certainty of the Christian doing the witnessing.

Sans objective proof, what the evangelical seems to infer is simply the subjective, "I possess the truth, and here's what it's done for me--if you will take the leap of faith, then you too will have the certainty I do." Or, in my own words, if I choose to believe in it, then it will be true to me, and if I don't, then truth escapes me. Any other religion that claims exclusivity would be in the same double-bind.

If I do have coffee with you, does our conversation begin from the premise that you are right and I am wrong? Because, if so, then it will not be useful or lead to respect and understanding for one another.

I think the point that I try to make to my Christian friends is that the car salesman-approach is actually counterproductive to your aims of evangelism--it turns people off. Better to live by example than by the tropes of rhetoric that are unfit to your purpose anyway. And there is already an abundance of religious folks who will tell another they are wrong, and a deficit of those that demonstrate compassion and unconditional love.

If you are truly interested in how one can live their life emphasizing compassion over being right about who God is, and untethered to fear of eternal retribution or hope for an eternal reward, then I would love to meet you. But I do not wish merely to be a project.

Otherwise, know that I appreciate and acknowledge the spirit with which you have engaged me on this issue, and I mean no disrespect to you and encourage you to cultivate and rely upon your own faith.

I truly love my friends here.

fogmachine said...

The incoming $$$$ must be slowing too much for comfort after hearing Brother Steve today. Just before the offering, he was praying the wealth and prosperity gospel of getting back a whole lot more $$$$ than you put in. Then the choir sang a song to back the pre-offering minimessage up.

Lynn said...

Hello! Anyone Home?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hey, sheeps! Sorry for the delay in publishing today. NASS has been away from the computer all day. How's everyone?

oc said...

Hi NASS, We miss you!
How's St Paul?

:)

New BBC Open Forum said...

oc,

It's been in my rear view mirror today. :-)

New BBC Open Forum said...

I needed a good laugh about now.

This qualifies!

concernedSBCer said...

Great day at church today! While, due to circumstances out of my control, I did not make it this am, I went this PM. Our pastor started a series on the 10 commandments. Great sermon.

(Added 9 new members today. We've been averaging about 6 per week I think.)

How did everyone else's Sunday go?

:)

padroc said...

Cakes,

Email me or get my phone number from V.

Per your last response to me we could do a burger or BBQ and I could introduce you to an East Indian friend of mine. He is a philosopher, linguist, logician, Christian whom you may find fascinating. And he does not approach others as "projects" or with the attitude that he is right and you are wrong. He couldn’t possibly meet with us in person just now as he lives in Atlanta and travels extensively around the globe, but I could do the very next best thing.

In most respects he has influenced how I think more than what I think, which has helped me with what I think and how I approach what to believe.

Your friend,

Padroc

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Hey BBC'ers...what did Johnny Hunt preach at your church recently? He was down at Jax tonight and he preached a whale of a sermon about giving....HIS giving....and how we should be giving more like HE gives (even though he's a celebrity preacher making 10x and more than the average church member by making 10k a pop at speaking engagements on the preaching circuit). It was quite an embarrassing moment for Johnny Hunt to come down and do this to us...right after Mac announced he was going to cut all "reward trips" for our middle schoolers and high schoolers (where the church pays for a trip somewhere to reward them for their faithful service, scripture memorization, soul winning, etc). I just wonder what is going on with these mega church pastors these days....

concernedSBCer said...

fbc: Sounds like the budget isn't growing as fast as they would like. You know, I never remember a visiting preacher preaching on stewardship. *wrinkled brow* That smells like a set-up job to me.

JMHO, of course. :)

I take it that it wasn't received very well?

concernedSBCer said...

JAX said: "I just wonder what is going on with these mega church pastors these days...."

I think it's another example of a career vs. a call.

I'm sorry. :(

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Concerned: oh, the church loves it. They love to be brow beaten and tongue lashed by their pastor - seriously. Its a sickening sight. Some of you are right, what did Jim Whitmire get himself into...answer: a hefty salary, that's what...

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

One minor detail about the Johnny Hunt "I TITHE BETTER THAN YOU" speech tonight...it was the closing meeting of the NAME conference (North Africa Middle East) for the IMB...so he gave a huge stewardship speech to the NAME missionaries...very strange indeed. Johnny Hunt took a tumble tonight in my estimation of him as a preacher and pastor. It was a sad sight.

concernedSBCer said...

FBC: I'm not getting it........

Why would anyone want to be browbeat?

Now, Pastors have to teach and to guide, and I get that, but I still think it's weird a visiting pastor would do that.

concernedSBCer said...

FBC said: "so he gave a huge stewardship speech to the NAME missionaries...very strange indeed."

Whoa! That's a leap into a new realm. Missionaries are sacrificing EVERYTHING.....and they don't make $10,000 when they speak. That is beyond me.

oc said...

PDL, PDC.
I think I'll write a book and start a movement. PFP. Preaching for Profit...

Wait....looks like lots of people have beat me to it.

Cakes said...

Padroc,

Ok, but only if my pal OC is there to watch my back, speaking of lions. I like hamburgers, bar-be-que and Indian food.

My schedule is freaky between my kiddies and night class, plus I think I may actually have a date this week with a cute redhead--yeeoow!

Pardon, I'm perusing ebay in search of a Saxophone--anyone play?

gmommy said...

Why don't pastors just teach the Word instead of being dictators and bullies??
It is the Word that is our authority.
If the heart isn't right, what good is the giving?

sickofthelies said...

concerned sbcer said:

How did everyone else's Sunday go?
*******
Well, since you asked :)

My sister and I went down to south Mississippi to visit relatives...stopped at every salvage and junk store on the way down highway 49 in Mississippi, went to church at the Presbyterian church where we grew up..( neither of us had been to church there since 1965)

Visited the graves of our mom, our grandparents, and our great grandparents, AND a confederate soldier that is buried next to my great grandparents, at Antioch Methodist Church, in Tuckers Crossing, Mississippi ( WAAAAAAAY out in the sticks in south mississippi very close to the Alabama line)

Stopped in to see our great Aunt who is 90 years old and still rides her bike every day and drives her car and lives by herself....Stopped in to see the mother of one of our old friends, who is 92 years old, lives alone, drives her own car..and dresses like a fashion model.

My face hurts from laughing. Sisters are so much fun!

larry said...

fbc jax:
Its a sickening sight. Some of you are right, what did Jim Whitmire get himself into...answer: a hefty salary, that's what...


fbc,

You'll only lose credibility if you say things like that about Jim Whitmire. You'll find no one in Memphis who has a bad thing to say about the man, not even those who forced him to retire from Bellevue since they now realize what a huge mistake they made.

After reading what you have said about a proven servant of the Lord, I'll have to look at your future posts in a totally different light.

I don't think I'll be the only one, either.

ezekiel said...

Cakes,

I seek knowledge and understanding. I am told where to find it, Here

If we were to have coffee, I would start by telling you that the only person that I know to be right is the WORD. And the premise would be based on what He says.

As far as the car salesman technique, I agree with you. Ultimately, that leads to me telling you what you want to hear. More or less putting me in the same boat with any person or organization willing to modify my faith or water down the WORD so you will like the model, color and the price tag. It is not my job to convince you. It is only my job to present the Gospel and answer your questions to the best of my ability. I can't save you. That is work of the Holy Spirit.

As far as love and compassion go, I am commanded to show love and compassion. In fact, it is the greatest commandment. (John 15:12
This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.)

My faith is founded on the Rock, Jesus, Savior, Redeemer. The One that I have read about in the Bible. Untethering from fear of eternal seperation from Him just can't happen.

As to being a project, I have enough of those already. If the Holy Spirit moves you to seek answers, find someone that loves you enough to tell you the truth. Don't fall for all the junk that is out there. Make them show it to you in the WORD.

sickofthelies said...

A little birdie told me that
Dr. R's daughter and her husband joined Faith this morning.

BBC 11yrs said...

FBC Jax Watchdog,

Can you give us proof for Dr. Hunt's speaking fee while at FBCJax? Your statement that he received $10,000 per speaking engagement is titilating but needs to be supported to give it credibility to anyone wanting truth and not speculation.

Most who frequent this blog and post, I believe, want to be truthful and your speculation, thus far, should be considered mere gossip unless there is proof.

Please, show us the paper trail.

concernedSBCer said...

Larry: I think you misunderstood FBC's post. It sounded to me like he was worried about JM and what he had gotten himself into.

Apparently, FBC Jax is going through a lot of what BBC has been facing and no one wants JM to go from the fire into the frying pan.

Cakes said...

EZ,

Cool--you do understand, however, that if trust the scribes that wrote the Word, then you trust that those individuals were empowered by God to faithfully represent the true communications of Him; and if you follow a certain interpretation of scripture (which are disparate), or doctrine, then you trust those individuals have faithfully represented God's intent.

I have had Christians tell me that they can prove that the Judeo-Christian God exist--by what the Bible says. This is not compelling unless one believes the Bible is the inspired word of God, which, despite your faith in it, is still founded on the assumption it is inspired. Not everyone was raised to make such an assumption, or hold to it even if they were.

This is the crux--if I must trust a book over my own understanding, my own intelligence, powers of reason and scrutiny, then that leap of faith is still at play. A devotee of the Koran, the Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita or any other "inspired" text would say likewise.

I think us boys will meet sometime soon, and I hope that you will join us. You're a nice person and I appreciate your measured discussion in this regard.

Love, D.

gmommy said...

Larry,
I wish you would stop trying to be the blog police....we have a few of those already. That person gave their opinion.
I care for Jim and I wonder why he would go to that chuch also.

Please don't shame people like FBJX who is not cutting JW but asking questions and voicing their opinions....and no, I don't want to email you if that occurs to you like it usually does with the others you try and monitor.

FBJX, Nass is the moderator.

gmommy said...

We can't always show a paper trail and all who post here regularly know that.
We get info from credible people who don't want to blow their own covers.
FBJX....sorry for the demands.
Thanks for visiting the blog

whitey said...

How often are topics started here? Where can we suggest a new topic? I heard there was a box somewhere but can't find it!

New BBC Open Forum said...

whitey,

You can e-mail me (address is in my profile) with any topic ideas.

BBC 11yrs said...

gmommy said...

We can't always show a paper trail and all who post here regularly know that.
We get info from credible people who don't want to blow their own covers.
FBJX....sorry for the demands.
Thanks for visiting the blog

It sounds as if truth is determined by who we choose to see as credible. This is dangerous as it can easily lead to discussion of something that is totally false. Not because our supposed credible source would intentionally deceive but they could be in error.

Again, if this is the standard for truth, we all are in trouble.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I meant no disrepsect to JW...I can see what a kind sweet loving spirit he has, and I feel sorry for him to be in this situation. He likely was hired by Mac to get the heat off Mac's back about the departure of Rodney Brooks.

Regarding the request for documentation of the $10k honoraria:

sorry, I left my documentation at the office on the $10k figure. I probably have a receipt somewhere, but just can't find it. Anyone in SBC circles knows that the big name preachers pay each other honoraria from $3k and up, plus expenses to come preach. Johnny Hunt is one of the regulars on the circuit.

I have never, ever, seen a preacher so full of himself, than Johnny Hunt was last night. I was quite literally sitting there with my mouth wide open. He tries to come off as humble, but his message is that he loves Jesus so much, that he gives so much to all these different ministries. And because he gives so much, God blesses and gives him more...and that if those hearing him would just love Jesus more they would get more and then could give more. It was a sad sight last night. I wonder if he pulled the same thing at Bellevue when he was there recently making the rounds collecting his honoraria....

larry said...

FBC Jax gave his opinion, I gave mine. Why was one of us lauded and the other chastised and called names?

There is one reason and one reason alone that my friend Jim Whitmire would go to FBC Jacksonville, and that is in obedience to God's call.

Anyone who believes otherwise is mistaken, and I will not keep quiet while my friend is unjustly said to be motivated by greed, especially when I know the opposite is true. If that makes me the 'blog police' then send me a badge.

imaresistor said...

A Challenge for Pastors by Paul Washer

ezekiel said...

Cakes,

Among other books, Paul wrote 2 Timothy. As I understand it, he was instructing Timothy via his 2nd letter to him. In this "letter" we find the following scripture. Here we see a prediction that is coming true and the measure to take to defend against it.

2 Tim 3:13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Now Paul wrote this and I have a strong tendency to believe a man that endured what he did and had the personal encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus. But beyond that, we have the following scripture and the theme is repeated numerous times through out the Bible.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.


Isaiah 49:10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

Psalm 25:9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.

25:10 All the paths of the LORD [are] mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

25:11 For thy name's sake, O LORD, pardon mine iniquity; for it [is] great.

25:12 What man [is] he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way [that] he shall choose.

25:13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

25:14 The secret of the LORD [is] with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

Hebrews 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

If you will read the Bible, it will become exceedingly clear that the men and the scribes that wrote the WORD had to be under the instruction of Jesus. Had to have been. No other way can the interlocking consistency between writers, the truth and the wisdom contained be explained.

Having said that, I would think it a relatively small thing to write a book to teach my people how I wanted them to live and worship me...if I had the power to create heaven and earth..make it rain and snow...

Please don't ever say things like "nice guy" here where everyone can see it. You will ruin my carefully crafted image. :)

I would enjoy meeting you. I like your heart. Seems soft enough for Him to write on it. A lot more than can be said of many....

Mary said...

Cakes said:

”This is the crux--if I must trust a book over my own understanding, my own intelligence, powers of reason and scrutiny, then that leap of faith is still at play. A devotee of the Koran, the Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita or any other "inspired" text would say likewise.”

Cakes, I’d like to interject a few thoughts for your consideration, if I may.

You wrote of the crux – the bottom line, if you will, regarding any book that claims to present to mankind the one true God.

You claim to walk a different path from a born-again child of God, so let’s assume there is a book that your intelligence could immediately grasp as complete in its entirety; one that your astute powers of reason and scrutiny could readily understand and totally accept as being sound even in its most diminutive precepts. With that given, then I would suggest that you have a book that presents a very small and finite god who is incapable of doing anything more for you than that cup of coffee you will be enjoying when you guys meet. It may make you a nicer guy, a more moral person, but such a book and any god that it claims to present will be impotent in guiding you into a personal relationship with the Spirit of the living God.

You are correct with your statement that not everyone was raised to assume the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I can relate. My mother saw to it that I was thoroughly indoctrinated as a Roman Catholic. I was taught first and foremost to place all faith and trust into the church -- the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and then in its Catechism (which takes precedence over the Bible), its papacy, priests and sacraments. Bible reading, while not totally forbidden, was certainly frowned upon as only the Church magisterium had the wisdom to understand and interpret the truth from error contained within its pages. The Bible is not considered to be inspired by the RCC. The priest would regularly hear my confessions and dole out his Hail Mary’s, Novenas, and other penances as he saw fit. Any attempt to pray directly to Jesus Christ was forbidden. I had to pray to Mary and beg her to intervene and pray to Jesus on my behalf. I was a good little pagan for many years, but I digress…

Cakes, I believe you know my story of abuse and I won’t belabor it again other than to say that my father was a protestant and a respected deacon in his church. And all the while, my father was my perp. It would be an understatement to say that I wanted anything to do with his Christianity.

Cakes, like you, after years a false religion at church and horrific abuse at home, I was not interested in anything I could not solidly verify, If there was a God at all, I wanted to be able to prove Him, to touch Him, to have Him show Himself to me. If such a One did exist, I wanted to take Him on empirical evidence with no faith involved, for by that time, I had very little faith left to give.

Dear David, you know my story and you know how it ends. I pray that you too, my friend, come to discover this same personal relationship with Jesus. He is real and He will make Himself known to you if you will but seek him with an open heart.

You are in my prayers,
Mary

sheeplessatbbc said...

It's the early stages of Alzheimers. No joking matter!

I personally know the gentleman that approached the stage at BBC this Sunday at the 11:00 service, a relative of his just told me about the incident this afternoon.

Something Bro Steve said prompted him to remember a joke he had heard and he came up to tell it to Bro Steve.

His wife was there with him, obviously in shock, she just sat in her seat as he walked up front.

They are not in a Sunday School class, are not involved in any blog activity or any other church activities and he certainly is not Charles Page, aka watchinghissotry.

This is NOT a setup to see how Steve Gaines would handle a situation, as some have eluded to, comparing this with the unfortunate incident Dr. Rogers experienced many years ago as someone rushed him on the stage.

Bro. Gaines does not know this family personally nor do they know him personally.

There is no "other" story here, period!

The story is: A precious Christain couple trying to keep life as normal as possible and going to their church to worship God.

There are some of us on this blog who have personal experiences with Alzheimers in their family or spouses families and will be able to understand how something as bizarre as this could happen, others who have no experience with Alzheimers may not be able to understand this, but believe me, stranger things than this can happen.

Steve Gaines is to be commended on how kindly he handled this man, especially since he does not know him and would not recognize him as a harmless member of BBC.

I hope this explanation with put a stop to any further speculation on this or the other blog.

New BBC Open Forum said...

sheepless,

I'm afraid I must have missed something here.

sheeplessatbbc said...

NASS,

A friend emailed me about something on Brattons Blog regarding a man coming up on stage yesterday at BBC at the 11:00 service.

It's true, but nothing contrived,
just a man with early stages of Alzheimers wanting to tell Bro Steve a joke.

Something Steve said in the service reminded him of the joke about Heaven and hell.

I will have to say Steve handled it very well.

Piglet said...

Cakes said

This is the crux--if I must trust a book over my own understanding, my own intelligence, powers of reason and scrutiny, then that leap of faith is still at play. A devotee of the Koran, the Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita or any other "inspired" text would say likewise.

Piglet says:

Hi, Cakes!

You made a fair statement. None of us needs to check our brains at the door. And neither should we follow our emotions. I teach my own sons to think and look at the facts.

So look at the facts - who wrote the Bible as opposed to who wrote these other texts and the credibility of each, beginning, I would say, with the fulfillment of prophecy.

If you have been honest with yourself and us about your desire to measure the facts and know truth - you might start with "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by a man named Josh McDowell who set out to disprove the Bible and Christianity.

Science, math, geography, history -these are all narrow subjects with absolute truth that an be studied. Why not theology? Just a thought.

I was raised on faith alone - and never required the facts. I wanted my sons to have more - growing up in a pluralistic society where spirituality has become a buffet - take what you like and leave the rest.

If, at some point in the future, my sons were to reject their faith - it will not be because they have not studied the facts and know the truth - it would be because they reject the truth.

Sorry for the intrusion.

Y'all carry on. :)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thanks, sheepless. It's nice to know they didn't haul the gentleman off in handcuffs.

sheeplessatbbc said...

NASS,

You've got mail.

How's the fishin' up there in MN?

Lin said...

"but his message is that he loves Jesus so much, that he gives so much to all these different ministries. And because he gives so much, God blesses and gives him more...and that if those hearing him would just love Jesus more they would get more and then could give more.'

Is there an audio of this sermon online?

Mary said...

Cakes,

Just a quick postscript…

Piglet is absolutely correct about not needing to check your brains at the door. And, as he/she said, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell is indeed an excellent place to begin. I intended to recommend it to you in my previous post but I had 5 interruptions in that brief span and my train of thought is easily derailed these days. ;-)

Mary

amazed said...

Larry--It sure is interesting that you and others think every move by a minister is because God is involved. That thinking leaves out the human factor and in this day and age, some ministers are becoming more human by the minute. JW just wasn't ready to hang it up just yet and a door opened and he stepped through.

STOPTHEMADNESS said...

Hey Guys, sorry to barge in. But it is odd that Bro. Steve has been so grouchy (lack of better word) that he is hailed for being nice to someone, when he was standing in front of an audience. Wow, a man who loves Jesus was nice to a sick man for daring to approach him. Can't we all hear ourselves anymore?

New BBC Open Forum said...

stm,

It is odd, isn't it? And a shame.

Cakes said...

Piglet, Mary,

Thanks, you're both great. I met Josh McDowell years ago at Leawood.

Nice guy. But google Canaan, Albright and Kenyon.

Housewife said...

stm, LOL. No kidding. Also, at an 11 AM service, that camera serves as a great deterrent too. I mean, it's one thing to twist Scripture before an already Scripture-ignorant audience but it's entirely another thing to show your true temper in front of a camera. ;P

whitey said...

Housewife...

True, but I hear we have excellent video editors who could accidentally delete some footage should Stevo do something ugly.

Junkster said...

Cakes said...
Piglet, Mary,

Thanks, you're both great. I met Josh McDowell years ago at Leawood.

Nice guy. But google Canaan, Albright and Kenyon.


I just did ... this came up...

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/433

concernedSBCer said...

From the article Junk (and Cakes) cited: "Accordingly, archaeological interpretations take precedence over, and stand in judgment of, the biblical text. However, the fact remains that, even if one rejects its divine inspiration, the Bible is an ancient historical witness. By virtue of that fact, it should be taken as seriously as any other document of antiquity. To brush aside the biblical account as a “pious fraud” simply will not do."

Then the article concludes: "More importantly, we must recognize that, though the Bible offers valuable and historically accurate information, its primary purpose is to proclaim the sovereignty of God, Who is Lord of history. It is a volume affirming divine activity in human history, the truth of which archaeology is inadequate to judge. By faith, we acknowledge that the same God Who brought the Israelites out of Egypt, and gave them the promised land, is still the sovereign Lord of our own history—even in these anxious times."

ezekiel said...

Sounds like a bunch of impatient Texans arguing over the difference of a couple of hundred years.

Canaan wasn't conquered in a day, month or year. In fact it was never completely conquered. That doesn't mean that there were not fierce battles and campaigns over numerous years. If one reads carefully, and use your brain, it becomes obvious that the process of conquering Canaan took years, and occurred over a long enough time period to allow Israel to intermarry with the people they were conquering. Ultimately resulting in exactly what God had warned them not to do and eventual failure to occupy all of Canaan.

Exodus 23:20 “Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.
25 “So you shall serve the LORD your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you. 26 No one shall suffer miscarriage or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days.
27 “I will send My fear before you, I will cause confusion among all the people to whom you come, and will make all your enemies turn their backs to you. 28 And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite from before you. 29 I will not drive them out from before you in one year, lest the land become desolate and the beasts of the field become too numerous for you. 30 Little by little I will drive them out from before you, until you have increased, and you inherit the land. 31 And I will set your bounds from the Red Sea to the sea, Philistia, and from the desert to the River.[b] For I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you shall drive them out before you. 32 You shall make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in your land, lest they make you sin against Me. For if you serve their gods, it will surely be a snare to you.”

Joshua 15:63 But the tribe of Judah could not drive out the Jebusites, who lived in the city of Jerusalem, so the Jebusites live there among the people of Judah to this day.

Joshua 16:10 And they did not drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites to this day and have become forced laborers.

Joshua 17:12But the sons of Manasseh could not take possession of these cities, because the Canaanites persisted in living in that land.
13It came about when the sons of Israel became strong, they put the Canaanites to forced labor, but they did not drive them out completely.

So we have a bunch of folks arguing about information that they are getting from fragments of bone, clay, tools about an event that happened over a time period of years, that was never totally accomplished.

God made Israel a great nation, over 600,000 men, in Egypt over the coarse of 400 years. Is it too much to expect that He conquered Canaan over the coarse of a couple of hundred?

While we are on the subject, Canaan is a type of rest, salvation as it were. Place of security. Much as we view our own salvation today.

Just as Israel was commanded, we must conquer sin in our lives to reach our own "Canaan". This occurs over a life time. For some...the next 20 or 30 years. Look back at who was doing the fighting and the conquering and you will see that it is us....with God's help...going before us and sending hornets...that drives sin out of our lives. We can't do it by ourselves.

Failure to fight the fight leaves us where Israel is today. Compassed by enemies, fighting for existance.

With God's help, "little by little" sin should be decreasing, should be conquered and eradicated from our lives. Its called "sanctification" and many professing Christians today say it can't be done or worse yet, say there is no need.

They have turned back to Egypt and are wandering in the wilderness. Rebelling against God.

Are we going to cross the river, put on the armor (Ephesians 6:11)
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

and fight the fight, or are we going to say it can't be done and die in the wilderness?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Two Rivers Baptist update. Page 3 of the lawsuit is missing from the PDF (link in sidebar to article), but I seriously doubt, as one commenter to the article suggested, that they're seeking members' giving records. Like BBC, Two Rivers wants to maintain it's tax-exempt status, but they don't want to abide by the laws that go with that privilege.

Perhaps the seminaries should consider requiring a course on non-profit corporate tax law. Might be a better use of faculty and $$$ than say, "Christian homemaking."

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