Wednesday, July 04, 2007
Serving the Body or Serving Steve Gaines?
It's deacon nomination time again, and the qualifications have been outlined in this insert from the July 1st Bellevue Today.
It seems a few things have been added to the Scriptural qualifications -- such as adherence to the BF&M 2000 (which our pastor had a large role in penning) and "lifting up the hands of the pastor," the latter being a variation of the wording in the infamous "deacon loyalty oath" that apparently died on the vine. That letter, which all the deacons were requested (required?) to sign, but which many refused, read as follows:
Brothers,
At the conclusion of our Deacons meeting that followed the evening service, all who were present unanimously approved the following motion:
"The 2006 active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church met November 5th after the evening service and unanimously approved the following motion. We the active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church wish to convey to our Church family our affirmation of Dr. Steve Gaines as God’s appointed and God’s anointed Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church. We commit ourselves before God and our Church family to serve with loyalty under his leadership and to free him up to do the work to which God has called him to do. We publicly demonstrate our loyalty to Pastor Gaines by signing our name to this motion and standing before the Church congregation in each of the morning worship services on November 19, 2006."
Over the next few days, each Vice Chairman will be calling the men in their group to go over the motion and answer any questions. The motion requires each Deacon to sign his name to the motion indicating his public approval of the motion, so please go to the Events Registration Center to sign it. If you have any reservations in signing this motion, please discuss it with your Vice Chairman. I want to reiterate that every Deacon that was present in the Deacons meeting following the service unanimously approved this motion, with the understanding they were to sign it and to stand before the congregation on November 19th. Our congregation needs to know where the Deacons stand during these challenging days.
Chuck
Steve Gaines has stated that he is not accountable to the deacon body. Therefore, it appears "service," as outlined in these qualifications, is a one-way street. We have many fine men serving as deacons, and certainly not all bow to the "demands" of the pastor, but some do.
You may recall the letter from Charles and Pam Gremillion to the deacons and some of the deacons' responses.
Now the "Pastor's Pit Crew," a group of children who have volunteered to pray for the pastor, have received their first assignment. Praying for the pastor is something we all should do. That's not the point. However, maybe it's "just me," but this sounds a little too much like loyalty to a man.
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«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 540 of 540Will the "David" who just posted a comment about FBCA please e-mail me? My e-mail addy is in my profile.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
To Ezekiel, Lin and any others that have joined in on our discussion:
We have discussed the meanings of many words that can have varied meanings to various people; affliction, grace holiness, etc.
I believe in our deep study of the Bible we tend to overlook the most unambiguous. That would be faith. For faith is what Jesus, the disciples, and all of the apostles agree on. Without faith, all our study of the Bible, all our charity and giving, all our "good" deeds, and all our good intentions are useless.
Throughout the New Testiment Jesus gave many examples of the power of faith.
Matthew 9
21for she was saying to herself, "If I only touch His garment, I will get well."
22But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.
Whether this was affliction or just bad luck, this woman did not care. She only knew that this man was the Son of God and she had faith.
Matthew 8
5And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him,
6and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented."
7Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him."
8But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9"For I also am a man under (I)authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it."
10Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
Imagine. A non-Jew, a barbarian, he would have been called, had the faith; a faith greater than those who spent their lives studying the writings of God. Yet Jesus recognized this soldier, a virtual enemy of Israel, as having a faith greater than the Jewish scholars. I doubt this centurion spent countless hours each day with his head buried in the Bible. I would say that Jesus approved of him nevertheless.
Matthew 17
20And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
Does Matthew 17 say if you had the understanding of grace and affliction the size of a mustard seed you could say to the mountain, "Move from here to there," and it will move, nothing will be impossible to you? No. That also would be faith.
Romans 1
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.
It seems that Paul failed to recognize the Romans' prowness of Bible study as being procalimed throughout the world.
If the Bible touts anything over faith it would be love. Paul tells the Corinthians to abide in three things, faith, hope and love with love being the greatest of the three. (I Cor 13:13)
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.(I John 4:8)
And, of course:
But the man who loves God is known by God. (I Cor 8:3).
In conclusion. It is a slippery slope we tread when we lose sight of the basic teachings of Christ.
Conviction of our sins by the Holy Spirit and that those sins will forever keep us from fellowship with God.
Knowledge that no works will deliver us from a sentence of death because of those sins and knowledge that God sent Jesus to die in our place for our sins.
Faith in Jesus to deliver us from our sins.
Love. Love others even as you love yourselves.
Jesus (Matthew 5)
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Which leads to prayer.
The Bible is a gift given to us by God. As I stated earlier, it is an owner's manual for life. Use it as such. Use it to strengthen faith. Use it to learn how to pray. Use it to learn how to love.
God never meant for this gift to be used as a hammer. In Matthew 5 Jesus:
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
I do not see where the Bible debater is listed in His beatitudes.
The Bible can be used to walk closer with God. It can also be used to justify war and persecution.
Don't slide down the slippery slope of losing the meaning of love, prayer and faith while studying the meaning of affliction and holiness.
This is what I live. Ezekiel, if that is a lie, it is better than any truth that you could ever make me aware of.
imaresistor said...
Jon, I posted this to you earlier this afternoon. You have not responded. I am posting it again in the chance you overlooked my post to you? Would like some encouragement on this post. ??? Then will bid my farewell to you. Thank you...Ima
_______________________________
Imaresistor said...
Jon,
Just as an aside to fan my curiosity I suppose...a question for you. Give it ample thought first.
These people...the ones unwanted at BBC, the ones who have been asked to leave, the ones who have been literally run off-you know the ones I make reference to. Tell me how they are supposed to feel? Tell me how they are supposed to respond to the treatment they have received? And about the love...can they genuinely love those who have cast them out of their church? Tell me...give me, and them, the answers. Your opinion as a church member and/or a pastor/minister. Biblically speaking...the answer to this.
2:04 PM, July 10, 2007
6:19 PM, July 10, 2007
Good morning Ima,
I guess I did miss your first post with these questions and last night was visitation, we had a great time. Then I came home to the tile man (one of our members) still not finished and I spent the rest of the evening working on that project. He will be back tomorrow evening to grout. Wheeee! But it will be finished soon and our new home (new to us) will be one step closer to being updated.
You ask: Tell me how they are supposed to feel?
I respond: Hurt, very hurt, Deeply hurt. This is real pain and should not be held in.
You ask: Tell me how they are supposed to respond to the treatment they have received?
I respond: The Bible says we are to love our enemies. I do not know how each individual sees those who have opposed them but there is an us / them thing going on and it is not such in a competitive manner.
On the cross, Jesus stated, Father , forgive them for they know not what they do." If you are convinced this is applicable to the BBC leadership then follow the way of Christ.
My concern over this blog is two-fold.
1 - It is enabling those who are hurt, bitter, angry... to remain in these attitudes.
2 - The anonymity of the bloggers do not demonstrate their complete reliance on God for this mess. It is very easy to become hateful, sinful in what a person says if they believe they don't have to be held accountable. Anonymity gives a person the belief that they can say whatever and don't have to worry about how anyone who disagrees with them. They feel safe. My sense is they are fearful of men rather than God and scripture teaches us that we are to fear God and God alone.
If every person made it known who they were and retaliation came, who is your protector? Who is your fortress?
Thank you for the questions and I hope my response helped.
Let me pray...
Father, bless IMA today. Help this person who loves you to find complete peace in you through this valley of the shadow of death. Let them know that it is not the end of anything because they belong to you and eternity is already theirs. Help them be brave to do what they must do to honor Your name.
In the name of Jesus,
AMEN
Lindon,
Please forgive me for making your day lass than blessed. I am not here to argue or run from what I perceive is wrong or abusive. Most of what you say you read into my comments is wrong but there is no need to debate what you nor I plan on remaining the same about ourselves.
May God bless you today as you seek truth and may you find it.
Matthew 7:12 (NKJV)
Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
delivered_by_grace,
I'll agree no one should worship a Bible...but no one can know the Word outside the word. The word is quite clear that we're to study His word...meditate on it night and day. Part of communion with God and Christ is time spent in His word. You can't separate the Word from His word. As far as cleansing....we need that constantly...that is unless you believe in sinless perfection. "If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."...that's addressed to believers.
A song I will be working on with our teens this week. It is new to them but it will be fun and exciting to see them learn and share this with the church in upcoming weeks.
We are using iworship DVD's for background...
I'm trading my sorrows,
I'm trading my shame,
I'm laying them down for the joy of the Lord.
I'm trading my sickness,
I'm trading my pain,
I'm laying them down foe the joy of the Lord.
We say yes, Lord, yes, Lord, Yes, Yes Lord.
Yes, Lord, yes, Lord, Yes, Yes Lord.
Yes, Lord, yes, Lord, Yes, Yes Lord, Amen.
I am pressed but not crushed, persecuted, not abandoned,
struck down but not destroyed.
I am blessed beyond the curse,
for His promise will endure
that His joy's gonna be my strength.
Though the sorrow may last for the night
His joy comes in the morning.
What an awesome God we serve.
Pray for our teens as they are coming in this new adventure from a high in youth camp.
Jon wrote:
"My concern over this blog is two-fold.
1 - It is enabling those who are hurt, bitter, angry... to remain in these attitudes.
2 - The anonymity of the bloggers do not demonstrate their complete reliance on God for this mess. It is very easy to become hateful, sinful in what a person says if they believe they don't have to be held accountable. Anonymity gives a person the belief that they can say whatever and don't have to worry about how anyone who disagrees with them. They feel safe. My sense is they are fearful of men rather than God and scripture teaches us that we are to fear God and God alone."
You, sir, are one of the most self-righteous pieces of work I've ever seen! And I'd have no problem saying that to your face if we ever met. I am not ashamed of anything I say here. In fact, that's the yardstick I use when posting any comment -- namely, would I say this same thing, in this same way, to someone in person. If not, I edit it first.
Can you not see (enough people have pointed this out to you) that your continuing to come here with your self-righteous, I'm-so-full-of-grace attitude is only heaping more pain on the people who post here? Yet, here you are back again trying to demonstrate how noble you are.
Do you realize you were on this blog all day long yesterday? Several people have commented to me privately (and probably here, too) that they wonder when you work. You've got a congregation to take care of. Do you ever visit anyone at home or in the hospital? Don't you have to spend time studying and preparing sermons? It's amazing to me that a pastor of what appears to be a pretty good sized church has this much time on his hands to blog with a bunch of people three states away.
We've been over the "anonymity" thing ad nauseum. People have a lot of reasons for not posting their real names, not the least of which is this forum can be read by anyone in the world. There are at least three groups of people who disagree with many of the things said here. For whatever reasons, they don't want the truth being known. One group, the largest, is harmless. For the most part, they're ambivalent at best and don't really care as long as it doesn't affect them. A second group is much more vocal, but they're not insane. They know there are boundaries you never cross, and they're not going to physically harm someone.
There's a third and tiny group out there though who are certifiably nuts. We've encountered a couple of them already. These are people who for whatever reason, for lack of a kinder way of putting it, have a screw (or two or three) loose (or missing) and are unpredictable. These are the kind of people who shoot up offices and schools for reasons known only to themselves. If they perceive they've been pushed hard enough, they know no boundaries. So until you walk a mile (or two) in our shoes, then you have no right to come here and tell us we should hang our names out there for the world (and the nuts) to see. Besides, this is not about "us."
When I set up the rules for posting, all I required was that people register and make their profiles visible. If you don't like those rules, don't post.
I would again ask everyone who posts to ask yourselves if you'd speak the words you just wrote to someone's face. If not, you need to edit your comments before posting them.
Just a prayer reminder for this morning:
Karen said...
My surgery is at 10:30 tomorrow and I should be back home on Thursday. Play nice while I'm gone. :)
delievered by Grace wrote: We have discussed the meanings of many words that can have varied meanings to various people; affliction, grace holiness, etc.
I believe in our deep study of the Bible we tend to overlook the most unambiguous. That would be faith. For faith is what Jesus, the disciples, and all of the apostles agree on. Without faith, all our study of the Bible, all our charity and giving, all our "good" deeds, and all our good intentions are useless. "
Reply: ??? (sigh)
Friend, I just posted a FEW of your words above but must tell you I am not sure where you are coming from. Are you trying to tell us that we should overlook twisting of scripture? False teaching? You can save your fingers with me. I will NEVER overlook it. And you are welcome to say I am 'unloving'. I am used to it. I expect it.
We are to contend for truth...and trust me...no matter how many cherries you put on top of it, it will be called mean and hateful by the seekers/emergents. Why? Because if you read ALL of it, you will know that the Word 'divides'.
You wrote: It seems that Paul failed to recognize the Romans' prowness of Bible study as being procalimed throughout the world."
Friend, you have a problem with the Word. You may not like some stuff in it but all of it is for our correction and training. Maybe you really do not like some of the OT stuff. Some of it is quite shocking.
Just as a side note: Paul did commend the Bereans for searching the scriptures. We both know they searched the OT...know why? Because it is all about the coming of Jesus!
By the way, I have heard the same stuff you have posted here from emergents for the last 2 years.
I worship the ONE who wrote the Word. Not the paper, ink and leather. Nice try, though. Lots of people really do buy into that worshipping the Bible stuff. As I said, the emergents use that one all the time, taking out 'approved passages' for use.
You know, to make a point, I could just say that your use of scripture was to 'reprove' us therefore used as a hammer. But, I won't. :o)
Jon,
We've heard it many times. That song is one of Jamie's specialties. :-D
"I respond: The Bible says we are to love our enemies. I do not know how each individual sees those who have opposed them but there is an us / them thing going on and it is not such in a competitive manner."
Reality check: Gaines is a False teacher. We are to warn. What is unloving about warning people about false teachers and wolves? Oh, sorry, I can see where that might bother you, Jon.
I have the perfect remedy for all of this about BBC. BBC could cut Gaines salary to about 80,000 ONLY..no speaking engagements, royalties, etc. Let's see how serious he is.
Let us see if it is all about 'love'. :o)
Jon wrote: Lindon,
Please forgive me for making your day lass than blessed. I am not here to argue or run from what I perceive is wrong or abusive. Most of what you say you read into my comments is wrong but there is no need to debate what you nor I plan on remaining the same about ourselves."
See, Jon. This is the problem with false teaching..now I have to wonder if all your words are 'seasoned' with charm. Because that is what you recommended Christians should do.
Most here will think I am mean for saying that. But what else am I to think after your teaching on this?
What has happened at BBC does not honor God and it certainly has been painful to the sheep. It has torn apart families and longtime friends. God does love us, and we love our brothers and sisters in Christ. But we know that who He loves, He also disciplines (Psalms 94:12 and Proverbs 3:12). We also know that we are told to study to show ourselves approved (2 Timothy 2:15) and to stand for the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1). To do this, we must have faith in our Father and Savior, and be accepting of the grace offered to us. It's a package deal. That's what makes so much of this so disheartening. People are trying to take parts of the package without acknowledging the whole.
JMHO, of course.
Help me understand specific false teachings. If you can, it would help me understand if someone has specific citations from SG that are contrary to the scripture. I understand accusations of being non-responsive to concerns and materialistic, but I have not been enlightened as to specific false teachings as referenced in this blog.
EZ 3:1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.
3:2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.
3:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat [it]; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.
3:4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.
3:5 For thou [art] not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, [but] to the house of Israel;
3:6 Not to many people of a strange speech and of an hard language, whose words thou canst not understand. Surely, had I sent thee to them, they would have hearkened unto thee.
3:7 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel [are] impudent and hardhearted.
3:8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.
3:9 As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they [be] a rebellious house.
3:10 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears.
3:11 And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
6:48 I am that bread of life.
6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Addtional scripture for context John 1:18, 3:11, 7:16-18, 3:32, 6:64, 8:26, 8:28, 12:49, 14:24-26
3:31-36, 5:24, 11:26
John 15:4
Jer 1:9, Isaiah 2:19
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
That is the problem that I have with all these folks that tell me that they can just believe and and salvation is assured. They claim salvation through faith...belief like Abraham did in Gen 15.
Yet they fail to act on the belief...so is it really belief at all? Jesus tells us we must act...abide in Him and He will abide in us. We abide in the Word and the WORD abides in us.....
You stop short of grasping what Jesus offers when you fail to abide in the WORD. When you fail to eat and drink Him. So you say you have faith....that you believe.
What you in fact descibe is an abortion and death in sin....You were moved to the point of belief via the Holy Spirit (maybe you were, maybe you were not) but then you die a spiritual death because you refuse to eat the Flesh and drink the Blood of Christ. You also refuse the washing of the WORD described in Eph 5. So you starve and run around in dirty garments....till you die a spiritual death.
That is what happens to all those "flash in the pans" that catch fire and flame out. They die for lack of food. He tells Peter, to "feed my sheep" "feed my sheep".
Micah 5: 5:4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
When Jesus abides in you and you in Him, when you abide in the WORD and the WORD abides in you, when you are indeed "taught of God", that you have both heard and learned from the Father...
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Otherwise you look more like a spiritual abortion than a living branch bearing fruit. Examine your fruit...is it "works" and all touchy feely emotion? Or is it faith in the Rock and obedience to the WORD....the one you claim we have no need of knowing.....
lin said...
"I have the perfect remedy for all of this about BBC. BBC could cut Gaines salary to about 80,000 ONLY..no speaking engagements, royalties, etc. Let's see how serious he is.
Let us see if it is all about 'love'. :o)"
Steve and Donna would be outahere so fast it would leave his trinity heads spinning in their executive chairs (David Coombs-his hatchet man, Steve Marcum-his "let's spend the money on worldly vices" man, and Chip Freeman-"the lets see how we can hide it at all costs" man.
3RDSIDE,
Go to the BBC website and listen to the archived messages and compare the scriptures used with actual scripture and that same scripture used in context. There are too many to list on this blog.
Many here have searched to find the truth, I would like for others to do the same because unless the Lord reveals it in scripture, it could be considered just an opinion.
Amen mom4 to 3rdside
3rdside wrote: "Help me understand specific false teachings. If you can, it would help me understand if someone has specific citations from SG that are contrary to the scripture. I understand accusations of being non-responsive to concerns and materialistic, but I have not been enlightened as to specific false teachings as referenced in this blog. "
Reply: Oy vey. Have you read the entire blog? Do that first.
However, a clue is that scripture tells us false teachers and wolves are subtle so it not like they are wearing red suits and carrying pitchforks and claiming Jesus is not God. Most of the time, it is what they OMIT more than anything. Or, they do not practice what they preach in extreme ways or ignore scripture(like ignoring scripture so a pedophile minister can stay on staff) when it is inconvenient and use it out of context to promote a premise.
In Acts 20, Paul tells them that the blood of men is not on his hands because he taught the 'whole counsel of God'. In the NASB it is the 'purpose' of God.
The key: What is the full counsel of God? Answer that question with scripture and you will begin to understand. Be your own priest learning from the HIGH PRIEST: Christ Jesus.
Then in Acts 20, Paul goes on to warn them of wolves who will come in among you and from YOURSELVES. This whole passage is very instructive. Note verse 32.
Acts 20
26"Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men.
27"For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God.
28"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29"I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31"Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.
32"And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
33"I have coveted no one's silver or gold or clothes.
34"You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my own needs and to the men who were with me.
35In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"
36And when he had said these things, he knelt down and prayed with them all.
37And there was much weeping on the part of all; they embraced Paul and kissed him,
38being sorrowful most of all because of the word he had spoken, that they would not see his face again. And they accompanied him to the ship.
In other words, your question is something you are going to have to research and answer for yourself. Nothing any of us say here will mean anything to you. Let the Word teach.
Grace and Peace to you
As a former member of Bellevue I have watched with grief as the church I used to know has melted into a memory. I moved to Atlanta in 1989, and have been a member of First Atlanta for most of the time since. My wife and I have stayed there in spite of all the turmoil that the church has suffered: the pastor's separation and divorce, the mass abandonment or firing of staff on several occasions, and at least two silent but noticeable church splits. We debated whether to stay or go, and ended up staying because we gave the pastor the benefit of the doubt and because we were very involved and had close ties to other members. But now we are tired, and fed up, and are ready to go no matter the cost. We kept saying that if so and so happened, that would be it and we would go. Then that very thing would come to pass, and we would hold our nose, keep quiet, and stay. I believe now that that was a mistake. What brought it home to me was a comment my wife made the other day. She said, "Well, you know, all churches have problems, and it isn't much better anywhere else."
That statement opened my eyes, because I hearkened back to the years I was at Bellevue-- all through the 80's, and suddenly I was so homesick! I know that no church is perfect, but you cannot deny the sweet spirit and fellowship that reigned at Bellevue during those years. I was involved with the bus ministry to seniors and also the servicemen's ministry-- days of joy. I also remembered when we visited Bellevue in 2002, and were refreshed by the spirit and the preaching and the music and the presence of a pastor who didn't have the divorce issue hanging over his head. My wife and I talked about it at the time, and almost left FBC Atlanta at that time.
All of that to say this: it does not have to be this way, and we are determined to invest our lives in a church body that is healthy and Christ-like. I want my wife to experience what I did-- a pastor of integrity, preaching the truth with conviction and love, and challenging us as a body to move forward in our Christian life. If we have to start a new fellowship, we are ready. My wife was saved at FBC Atlanta, so she doesn't know anything else. I told her to hold on, because God is getting ready to take us in an exciting new direction!
FYI, when we heard that Mark Dougherty was the new associate pastor, that did it. We have already inherited the music minister from First Jacksonville, so it looks like we are the new depository for anyone who needs to move on.
Jon Estes..... I mean no offense but you sure do post on this blog a lot during the day & night. I hope you church isn't being shortchanged in your leadership of that church.
I know you have freetime to do with what you will and it is up to you how you spend it.
If you were my pastor, I would have questions of how well you are spending your time.
Yes, I know, that could be said for all of us but at this time, I am not Pastoring a church until I am sure if God plans for me to stay in Tennessee.
Please don't let this blog or anything else distract you from being the best Pastor you can be.
3rdside said...
Help me understand specific false teachings. If you can, it would help me understand if someone has specific citations from SG that are contrary to the scripture. I understand accusations of being non-responsive to concerns and materialistic, but I have not been enlightened as to specific false teachings as referenced in this blog.
One of the things to keep in mind re: false teachers as described in the New Testament is that it isn't all about erroneous doctrine ... there is also the issue of erroneous practice. A false teacher can be a heretic (denying fundamental essentials of the Christian faith, see 2 Peter 2) or just someone who distorts and twists the Scripture in more subtle ways to futher their own ends (see Acts 20:25-31).
Nish said...
FYI, when we heard that Mark Dougherty was the new associate pastor, that did it. We have already inherited the music minister from First Jacksonville, so it looks like we are the new depository for anyone who needs to move on.
I have wondered if MD going to FBCA was confirmed as true. Does this mean it is, or is it still just an "I heard" thing?
junk,
It's been confirmed. "Nish" is a reliable source.
John the Baptist,
I confess I spent too much time on the blog yesterday. I have not posted today since 8:18 this morning and it was a duplicate of an email I sent to someone and thought it was a positive note.
My day, other than service tonight, SS leadership meeting and my hour of prayer which begins at 5:00, is over. My work is done. Thanks for caring.
New BBC Open Forum said...
It's been confirmed. "Nish" is a reliable source.
That's interesting. I can't recall ... what was the reason given for MD leaving BBC?
And ... aren't you gonna fuss at Nish for not having a viewable profile? :)
Mark Dougharty is selling his home and is moving to Atlanta.
Confirmed!
Thank you, junk. I thought he already fixed that.
Nish! Make your profile visible, please! No need to show your real name or e-mail address. You can "uncheck" those boxes, but you do need to make your profile visible.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
Brother Jon,
The Scriptural debates you’ve had on this forum speak for themselves so I would now like to use a hypothetical in an attempt (feeble though it may be) to help you understand our situation. Let’s say that you and your family are enjoying a day of relaxation and play at a campground when suddenly you notice that hoards of rattlesnakes are stealthily slithering their way into the premises where they are hiding under rocks and leaves. Of course, you quickly gather up your family and rush them to safety outside of the campground.
My question to you is this: do you cry out at the top of your voice and warn all the other folks who are still in the campground that a brood of vipers is in their midst; do you make certain that each one of them hears and understands your warning or do you go merrily along on your way home, singing and praising God for sparing yourself and your family from harm?
I’d like to add another phase to the hypothetical. Suppose there are two deaf teenage boys on the very back side of the campground. You know this because earlier in the day you passed them on a hiking trail. You know they cannot hear your verbal warnings and the only way to reach them is for you to go back into the campground, putting yourself at great risk, and warn them face to face.
I would be very interested in what you would do.
Thanks,
Mary
Nish said...
FYI, when we heard that Mark Dougherty was the new associate pastor, that did it. We have already inherited the music minister from First Jacksonville, so it looks like we are the new depository for anyone who needs to move on.
Reply: Do you or do you know of anyone who needs a "pastor", "music leader aka The JP Show", "Minister of administration" aka The Shield, and a few deacons? We will be happy to give/send you ours!
I am just asking since you said that FBC Atlanta is the depository for those who need to move on....we have a few that need to do just that.
Mary,
Okay... if the other members of your family can see the snakes, then by all means warn everyone! (And send your husband back in to get the deaf boys.) But if you're the only one who can see the snakes... well... I'd say either get your eyes checked or tweak the dosage on your prescription meds. Just ssssssssayin'.
NASS,
LOL! Surely you jest! :-)
Of course the snakes are visible to all who are looking closely and to all who recognize snakes as snakes and are not deceived into thinking they are puppies. :-)
FYI Folks,
Karen's mother just called me. Karen's surgery is over and she is doing fine. Her mother asked me to pass this along to you folks.
Rowdy Lynn said...
Karen's mother just called me. Karen's surgery is over and she is doing fine. Her mother asked me to pass this along to you folks
PGFWABF!
Mary,
I would tell all those I could at the park or on the trail. I would not go on the internet and tell every Tom, Dick and Jane from all over America and the world that snakes are in the park, to get out and run. Not everyone is in danger of the snakes.
Yet, I believe your pain is real and my prayers are with you.
Lord, Cover Mary with your presence and strength. Help her to be holy as You are holy.
"Not everyone is in danger of the snakes."
Adam and Eve would disagree with you. :o)
Junkster said...
Rowdy Lynn said...
Karen's mother just called me. Karen's surgery is over and she is doing fine. Her mother asked me to pass this along to you folks
PGFWABF!
Junk....what is PGFWABF?
Jon L. Estes said...
I would tell all those I could at the park or on the trail. I would not go on the internet and tell every Tom, Dick and Jane from all over America and the world that snakes are in the park, to get out and run. Not everyone is in danger of the snakes.
So if there was a blog set up for those concerned about or impacted by the snakes, and folks who had been traumatized or injured by the snakes were posting their thoughts, experiences, concerns, etc. about the snakes, you, as an observer, would come on and tell the bloggers how they ought to feel, act, and speak about their experiences and concerns -- right?
"A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."
Jon wrote:
"I would tell all those I could at the park or on the trail. I would not go on the internet and tell every Tom, Dick and Jane from all over America and the world that snakes are in the park, to get out and run. Not everyone is in danger of the snakes."
What if the park rangers detain Mary and won't let her warn anyone? Doesn't Mary have the duty to warn everyone, not just those still in the park, but those who might venture into the park, that there are snakes there?
Today the snakes aren't just in one single park. They're in many parks. People need to know what to be on the lookout for. You are wrong. Everyone in our churches today is in danger of the snakes.
Mr. Estes, please kindly get your self-righteous, self-serving proverbial vehicle's tire off "piglet's" foot... and ours.
As long as we walk this earth we will have to remain vigilant. It's the "I'm ok, you're ok" philosophy that's gotten us where we are today. For someone who thinks the blog is an offense, you sure spend a lot of time here jon.
New,
I spoke directly to the example Mary gave. Not external things she did not speak about. She did not say should she warn everyone about snakes in any park.
No self righteousness here. Being in disagreement or thinking differently does not make one party or both self righteous.
Why all the name calling?
Why all the diversion?
Rowdy Lynn said...
Junk....what is PGFWABF?
I guess it has been a while since churches sang the old "Doxology" ... Praise God From Whom All Blesings Flow.
Jon said
"My day, other than service tonight, SS leadership meeting and my hour of prayer which begins at 5:00, is over. My work is done. Thanks for caring.
Not sure how to read this, Jon. Did the hour of prayer start at 5pm? Service started at 6 pm...that would be 5 pm our time.....one hour for singing and service...and you are here posting at 6 pm..our time. Not pulpit bloggin are you?
Your computer must be real close to the pulpit...or the service was short....How bout tending your sheep?
Nish wrote: "If we have to start a new fellowship, we are ready. My wife was saved at FBC Atlanta, so she doesn't know anything else. I told her to hold on, because God is getting ready to take us in an exciting new direction! "
I can totally relate to your post! I, too kept telling myself, well, there are NO perfect churches. That is not the point, is it? How much do we ignore before we are like the frog boiling in the pot and we are so desensitized to sin we do not even recognize it anymore in ourselves or in our church? I think you said it well.
I pray that God will bless your new endeavor and that you will find other believers to worship Him in Spirit and Truth.
Grace and Peace to you.
rowdy, tell Karen we are rejoicing with her for making it through this ok.
SNAKES IN THE PARK!!
It would have been NICE if we at BBC had been forewarned about the snakes.
Some of those snakes came from another park, now some snakes are going to other parks.
A little internet exposure isn't a bad thing..wish there had been some 2 years ago!!
If somebody had been warning us about the snakes maybe we wouldn't be where we are today.
Mary, good analogy.
Junkster,
Remember when we used to sing that at Bellevue, it wasn't that long ago.
Nice memory, thanks!
word verification.. KINGY
"Of course the snakes are visible to all who are looking closely and to all who recognize snakes as snakes and are not deceived into thinking they are puppies. :-)"
Ha! I just got this. Sometimes those snakes are dressed as puppies so you have look close.
Good point.
My profile is now up. Sorry about that-- I am not new to the internet, but am new to blogging on sites like this.
sheeplessatbbc said...
word verification.. KINGY
New dictionary entry:
Kingy, adj.
(1) "Of or related to a king; king-like"
(2) Dictatorial or despotic
Example: "Boy, that preacher sure has been acting kingy lately, hasn't he?"
... I would not go on the internet and tell every Tom, Dick and Jane from all over America and the world that snakes are in the park, to get out and run.
Response:
We understand that you and others would PREFER we not go on the internet and tell the world there are "snakes in the park".
But WE WILL continue to WARN America.
and WE don't tell them to RUN....
nish,
Thank you so much for the verification of MD on staff and for your insight and stand!Please feel welcomed here by other truth seekers...
MANY of us were new to this blog stuff a short time ago!!
gmommy wrote:
"and WE don't tell them to RUN.... "
Of course we don't. What people choose to do with the information is up to them.
Lin, thank you for your best wishes. We can already count about 15 families as prospective charter members. Not all or even necessarily most of them are from FBA. By our reckoning, 15 is about what we need to support a pastor, meeting in a school or home or no-cost venue. 15 tithers-- you can do a lot with that! We already have a pastor in mind as well as a music minister who might work for no charge until we grow.
Imagine being part of a new work. What do you think it would look and feel like? What things would you really want to see in place if you were starting from the ground up? It's fun to dream.....
Gmommy, thanks. I still feel a connection with BBC. I watched Dr. Rogers funeral live on the internet, and have followed Saving Bellevue site, so I feel like I have been right there.
Do you think the people that hired MD have listened to his recorded conversations with RE??????
or care about his trespassing on private property?
(ya know he had to get a boost:)
or ignoring temper tantrums?
or lying to cover for a "dreamer"?
I guess from one disqualified minister to another...
no problem with these or any little ol "mistakes".
This is going on in Memphis,Atlanta,Ms,...and all over....
We love and appreciate the pastors with servants hearts that do NOT belong to this club who ignore willful sin......
or the $500,000 house club!
Nish: Almost 10 years ago my family, along with about 12 other families, started a new church. Those were the sweetest times ever. All of one accord, truly, and all working and sacrificing together. If I can pass on and things we learned, don't hesitate to get in touch with me. God Bless You all....and please stay around and let us know how it's going!
ezekiel said...
Jon said
"My day, other than service tonight, SS leadership meeting and my hour of prayer which begins at 5:00, is over. My work is done. Thanks for caring.
Not sure how to read this, Jon. Did the hour of prayer start at 5pm? Service started at 6 pm...that would be 5 pm our time.....one hour for singing and service...and you are here posting at 6 pm..our time. Not pulpit bloggin are you?
Your computer must be real close to the pulpit...or the service was short....How bout tending your sheep?
6:14 PM, July 11, 2007
We are in a 24 hour prayer time, I had signed up for 5-6. What a great time in prayer. Bible Study began at 7. I kicked back from 6-7. Life is great and the sheep are doing fine.
Sheepless said:
"SNAKES IN THE PARK!!"
Lynn's Response:
Theres a Samuel L. Jackson/Snakes on a Plane joke there but I won't actually do the quote lol.
mom4, lin, and junkster,
Thanks for the time you took to reply to my quesiton. I guess I didn't ask it well enough.
I understand SG using scripture to convience people he is right and they are wrong...out of context. I guess I consider that a part of the pride/arrogance issue.
I am asking for an example of a false teaching as referenced in this thread.
A false teaching would be something along the line of saying believer's baptism is optional according to the Bible.
I just haven't heard such a false teaching. The advice to go to the website and listen to archived sermons and follow along in my Bible is not an answer. I've done that live with most of them.
This whole situation is so depressing to me as a BBC member and I pray the God who built BBC will change ALL of our hearts to reflect His.
In the meantime, anyone who can give me false teaching SG has presentd, I would like to have that to examine it.
This is not a challenge to someone's accusation, but an inquiry to help me better understand whether or not false teachings are being presented.
Again, I am not requesting character flaws such as materistic motives, pride, greed, cover-up, mean-spirited, or self-serving. Those are well documented. What I have yet to be shown is a false teaching.
Please don't reply with an answer that assigns motives to my question or pigeon-holes me as a supporter, because I am not. I simply want the truth and don't want to spread gossip.
Two wrongs do not make a right...mama always says.
"What do you think it would look and feel like? What things would you really want to see in place if you were starting from the ground up? It's fun to dream..... "
I have thought about this quite a bit. First of all, I would love to throw out every man made tradition and institutional thought about church. (Where in scripture is a 501c3? Or a CEO?)
We have created such a gap between laity and clergy that is not really like the NT church at all. It has become like a show with an audience. We are all given different gifts by the Holy Spirit. (And I am not talking about those silly tests they give you at church) How exciting to pray and seek those gifts for the edification of the Body.
If you think about it, elders (includes pastor) were just more mature believers in the faith.
And something that has excited me recently is supporting missionaires in the field directly. Knowing them personally, e-mailing back and forth with prayers, etc. What they face in some 'unfriendly' countries is unbelievable. Sharing and easing their burdens has been a true gift.
Getting together just to pray praises to our Holy Father. No prayer requests...just praising His Holiness and Sovereignty.
Going through scripture word for word even looking at the grammar! Every single word is for our teaching and correction.
Listening to someone who loves the Lord with all their heart singing their lungs out even though they have a bad voice! It is beautiful!
(We have an 80 year old woman in our church who sings a solo every few months. Her voice quakes and breaks but she so loves her Lord and every note is a praise to Him. I often think of Ethel Waters when she sings)
It does not have to be a dream, does it?
Blessings to you.
Just wondering ... is this what's next for BBC?
Lin stated:
Friend, I just posted a FEW of your words above but must tell you I am not sure where you are coming from. Are you trying to tell us that we should overlook twisting of scripture? False teaching? You can save your fingers with me. I will NEVER overlook it. And you are welcome to say I am 'unloving'. I am used to it. I expect it.
Response:
Did you actually read my post? I think it is crystal clear where I am coming from. Faith in Jesus Christ, loving others as you love yourself, striving to live like Christ. That is the only direction I am coming from. Now, how is that twisting scripture? How is that false teaching? And I do not believe you are unloving or you would not be wasting your time posting responses.
Lin:
We are to contend for truth...and trust me...no matter how many cherries you put on top of it, it will be called mean and hateful by the seekers/emergents. Why? Because if you read ALL of it, you will know that the Word 'divides'.
Response:
I have no intentions of putting cherries on top of it. Where in my post did I condemn the study of the Bible? My contention is that Jesus does not intend for us to solely study the Bible. His commandments went for outside of Bible Study. Our works are important to Christ. I believe that it is what separates us from the humanism that is rampant in the world today. And I agree with the emergents do call it mean and hateful, but we should convict people of their ungodliness. We should also be prepared to provide them witness through our knowledge of the Gospel to enlighten them to the ways of Christ. That is as, if not more, important than spending 24 hours a day with our noses in the Bible. You can read it, you can study it. But foremost, you must live it in the carnal world.
Lin:
Friend, you have a problem with the Word. You may not like some stuff in it but all of it is for our correction and training. Maybe you really do not like some of the OT stuff. Some of it is quite shocking.
Response:
I am at a total loss to this response. The Bible is, in my mind, the inerrant word of God, written by man but authored by God. For me not to "like" any portion of the Bible would force me to cast doubt on all of it. Do you believe the earth was created in six days? I do. Do I believe that God destroyed the earth and all it's inhabitants save for Noah and his family? I do. Some say it is scientifically impossible for the Bible to be 100% factual. I am a scientist. I believe it is 100% factual. Yes I am a walking talking oxymoron.
Just as a side note: Paul did commend the Bereans for searching the scriptures. We both know they searched the OT...know why? Because it is all about the coming of Jesus!
Lin:
By the way, I have heard the same stuff you have posted here from emergents for the last 2 years.
Response:
Guess you've got me there. I am an emergent. I have only spent the last 45+ years studying the Bible. I haven't even had the time yet to read it all the way through. You see I keep getting caught up on the beauty and meaning of the writing. I guess I spend too much time delving for information to help me understand what God is telling me with every verse. Maybe that is why I spend a month or more in a single book before moving on. True, I did spend three months in Genesis the first time and weeks on end subsequently. Lately it has been a little tougher on me though. You see, I had some unique teachers. Ramsey Pollard was the first to light the fire that still burns in me. Adrain Rogers stoked that fire for more than 30 years. With the current gentleman in the pulpit I have had to learn to keep that fire burning on my own.
Lin
I worship the ONE who wrote the Word. Not the paper, ink and leather. Nice try, though. Lots of people really do buy into that worshipping the Bible stuff. As I said, the emergents use that one all the time, taking out 'approved passages' for use.
Response:
I willl let this one slide since I have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to my previous post.
Very interesting link:
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/scandals/bellevue.html
Junkster,
Please tell m that little video is a jok of some kind!
Junkster said...
Just wondering ... is this what's next for BBC?
10:29 PM, July 11, 2007
I was watching that and I had a craving for a lime beverage while sitting on the beach for some reason!.
Ezekiel stated:
What you in fact descibe is an abortion and death in sin....You were moved to the point of belief via the Holy Spirit (maybe you were, maybe you were not) but then you die a spiritual death because you refuse to eat the Flesh and drink the Blood of Christ. You also refuse the washing of the WORD described in Eph 5. So you starve and run around in dirty garments....till you die a spiritual death.
Response:
Are you addressing me?
Ezekiel:
Otherwise you look more like a spiritual abortion than a living branch bearing fruit. Examine your fruit...is it "works" and all touchy feely emotion? Or is it faith in the Rock and obedience to the WORD....the one you claim we have no need of knowing.....
Response:
So, if you are referring to me, you know me that well do you? You sure jump to some high conclusions.
Junk: That video was unbelieveable.
If you haven't watched it yet, do. There is no way that should be at a church. The future according to RW......
GMommy: Can you believe it?
delievered by grace,
Have you ever heard the phrase, "they are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good'?
I used to believe that was true. I don't anymore. That is because what most of the world thinks is good is just not good to me anymore.
Could you try to explain your first comment again? It seems like I misunderstood it based on your last comment. (It could be a blonde thing :o)
junk...
Yes...I've seen these before. They are sick. I have read much on this blog about the i2Memphis...or whatever it is called...and have wondered about some of these meetings, prayer meetins (?), whatever...
"I just haven't heard such a false teaching. The advice to go to the website and listen to archived sermons and follow along in my Bible is not an answer. I've done that live with most of them."
We have given one example in this thread alone. You just may not think of it as 'false teaching'. Anytime someone reads into scripture what is not there...you must be circumspect. When it happens quite a bit...ouch.
There was a thread a while back on one of his sermons about Blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I cannot remember the exact sermon but someone here does...we discussed it ad nauseum.
What is concerning about Gaines is that he is all over scripture picking and choosing a verse here and there to fit a premise..like greed and Acts 5. This makes it very hard for a new believer to be a Berean. Every 'verse' is in a context of that book. It could take hours and hours of study to see if he is preaching in context if you really do not know scripture.
You really do have proof but just don't see it as proof. The second he found out that PW was a pedophile minister of prayer, he should have been outta there based on 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians 5. It is just that simple. See, the qualifications outlined in 1 Timothy say an elder (minister) must be above reproach even to the outside. Read 1 Timothy 3 and pay close attention to verse 7.
Grace and Peace
imaresistor said...
junk...
Yes...I've seen these before. They are sick. I have read much on this blog about the i2Memphis...or whatever it is called...and have wondered about some of these meetings, prayer meetins (?), whatever...
11:03 PM, July 11, 2007
ima....I2 isn't like that....yet. Who knows though. With Warrens influence, I wouldn't be surprised at some point everyone will gather in a circle, sing Kumbaya, and pass around the peace pipe.
Junk, that could have easily been a video of my former church. (blushing in embarrassment)
gmommy said...
Please tell m that little video is a jok of some kind!
Well, some might consider calling that "worship" a joke (in the sense that it is absurd), but, unfortunately, it is a real clip of a real service at the real Saddleback Church.
Lin stated:
Have you ever heard the phrase, "they are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good'?
I used to believe that was true. I don't anymore. That is because what most of the world thinks is good is just not good to me anymore.
Response:
I don't know whether the saying is true or not. I would have to ponder it for a time. I do believe you can lose sight of the forest when all those darned trees keep getting in the way.
Lin:
Could you try to explain your first comment again? It seems like I misunderstood it based on your last comment. (It could be a blonde thing :o)
Response:
If you are referring to my stance on "easy believeism" then I plead guilty. I take Jesus' words literally just as I take the rest of the Bible. I just don't believe that salvation is an ongoing process that has to be constantly renewed. Once redeemed though, I think the yearning to walk closer with God leads us to learn as mush about Him as is possible. And that is through the study of the Bible.
Junkster said...
Just wondering ... is this what's next for BBC?
Just wanted to add that I was joking about this coming to BBC. I actually think it demonstrates how far BBC is from being a true seeker-style church. I'm not one to get hung up on music ... I attend a church where the pastor is formerly one of the early "Christian rock" bands, and our music style is quite contemporary. (Don't be too disappointed in me, Ima!) :) But the dance routine in a church service was a bit much even for someone reared on Alice Cooper, Rush, and KISS like me.
If you havn't checked the link provided by Psalm 43:3... you really should read the recap that is at that site:
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/scandals/bellevue.html
Rowdy Lynn said...
ima....I2 isn't like that....yet. Who knows though. With Warrens influence, I wouldn't be surprised at some point everyone will gather in a circle, sing Kumbaya, and pass around the peace pipe.
Wrong song ... that one's way too hymn-ish. "Purple Haze", maybe? :)
delivered by grace,
Yes, that post was directed at you. Sorry I left off the
"delivered by grace"
You say,
"Our works are important to Christ. I believe that it is what separates us from the humanism that is rampant in the world today. And I agree with the emergents do call it mean and hateful, but we should convict people of their ungodliness."
I hope that there is a lot more that seperates us from the humanism in the world today than works. If not, we are in more trouble than I thought. I would hope that the real difference is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit....
Convicting people of their ungodliness, I think, is not really part of our job description.....
Your works are not important at all to Christ....they are a result of the Holy Spirit abiding in you....He doesn't need you or I to save anyone....What is important to God is our personal relationship with Him. Knowing Him and communicating with Him through prayer and the WORD.
I notice that you withdraw from the rather strong stance that the Bible is not needed in your idea of worship. I think you once called it "Bible idolatry" or something. Now you have moved on to the idea that you do accept the importance of the Bible by claiming a rather intense study of it...Somewhere I got the idea that you were really not convinced that it was without error...Yet now it is totally correct and you use it...Yet you have not read it through....I guess you read the parts you feel are important...
Then you move on to claim teaching by Pollard and Rogers.....Now I am not sure but I don't think either of those godly men would have been too happy about one of their flock claiming to be emergent......
Not one time have you claimed teaching by the Holy Spirit....by the WORD.....
Heb 8:10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more."
Now if you really have His laws in your heart and mind...Just where do you get the idea that we are to convict people of their unrighteousness and
where do you get the idea that our works are important to Him?
delivered by grace,
"If you are referring to my stance on "easy believeism" then I plead guilty. I take Jesus' words literally just as I take the rest of the Bible. I just don't believe that salvation is an ongoing process that has to be constantly renewed. Once redeemed though, I think the yearning to walk closer with God leads us to learn as mush about Him as is possible. And that is through the study of the Bible."
Hey, glad to see you are coming around!
What about the Unity sermon that SG preached and 25+...
(I think)....did another outline on using scripture correctly? In fact we have had SEVERAL sermons outlined on the blog showing how distorted the SG versions were.
I heard that same Unity sermon with the same outline at several local Baptist churches. (bought thru Lifeway?)
It appeared the other pastors were making SURE they didn't preach it the way SG did....going over board even... to speak against the way he had taught it.
What about all the attraction stuff and the change in the way to be saved at the invitation??
What about letting scripture convict instead of SG beating people with it for his purpose??? What about direct disobedience of scripture?
How about the speech he gave the deacons about his annointing????
It's hard when you want someone else to do the research....
Hard to believe you haven't picked up on some issues other than his character...but for me personally...that would be enough.
If a pastor does not LOVE the sheep and LOVE God's Word....by living it and NOT saying it is just a guideline ...and preaching and defending it...NOT by fragmenting it to make his agenda....
a Godly pastor would not lie over and over...
a Godly pastor would be broken hearted because so many have been hurt by his actions and decisions.
Junkster,
I visited that church for a while when my son wanted to check it out...it was brand new then.
Ezekiel stated:
delivered by grace,
Yes, that post was directed at you. Sorry I left off the
"delivered by grace"
You say,
"Our works are important to Christ. I believe that it is what separates us from the humanism that is rampant in the world today. And I agree with the emergents do call it mean and hateful, but we should convict people of their ungodliness."
I hope that there is a lot more that seperates us from the humanism in the world today than works. If not, we are in more trouble than I thought. I would hope that the real difference is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit....
Response:
I would submit that works are the single thing that separate the believers from the humanists. Works include worship, reading the Bible, loving one another and striving to live like Christ. The works are what separate us from the secular. The works are the evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Ezekiel:
Convicting people of their ungodliness, I think, is not really part of our job description.....
Response:
It is the role of the Holy Spirit to convict us of our ungodliness. Righteous living of the believer is commanded by my Lord. It is used by the Holy Spirit in the conviction of unbelievers. So it is part of the job description.
Ezekiel:
Your works are not important at all to Christ....they are a result of the Holy Spirit abiding in you....He doesn't need you or I to save anyone....
Response:
Our works are definitely important to Christ.
Matthew 28
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
A commandment that cannot come to fruition without works. If these works were not important I doubt Christ would have wasted his words.
He doesn't need us to save anyone. He does not even need us to worship Him. But the use of his people in spreading the Gospel adds to His glorification, just as worship does.
Ezekiel:
What is important to God is our personal relationship with Him. Knowing Him and communicating with Him through prayer and the WORD.
Response:
The personal relationship is important, but not the only important thing. Do you think that Billy Graham and Adrian Rogers and other evangelists are out on their own outside of the will of Christ when they strive to win the unbelievers to Him? So you think that Jesus meant for His followers to be in a sheltered exclusive club? Sorry, but my interpretation of His teachings does not agree with your interpretation.
Ezekiel:
I notice that you withdraw from the rather strong stance that the Bible is not needed in your idea of worship.
Response:
I have yet to withdraw from any stance where Christ or the Bible is involved in 45+ years. My stance is the same. You should read my responses and not indiscrimnantly add your own conclusions as to what you think I am saying.
Ezekiel:
I think you once called it "Bible idolatry" or something. Now you have moved on to the idea that you do accept the importance of the Bible by claiming a rather intense study of it...
Response:
Believe me my friend. My study of the Bible has been quite long and intense and continues. And there are several parts that I still do not understand. You introduce me to a person that has a complete knowledge of the Bible and I will introduce you to a fool. As far as moving on, I have never doubted the importance of the Bible. But if you read the Bible you will understand that it is NOT the only thing that is important. The spreading of the Gospel as commanded by Christ CANNOT be done by merely studying the Bible.
Ezekiel:
Somewhere I got the idea that you were really not convinced that it was without error...
Response:
There you go again adding your own false interpretations to what I actually wrote. At no time did I question the importance of the Bible. I question those that think the Bible is the only thing of importance.
Ezekiel:
Yet now it is totally correct and you use it...Yet you have not read it through....
Response:
Another error of not reading what I actually said. I said that I have not sat down and read the Bible through from cover to cover. I read a Tom Clancy novel or War and Peace through from cover to cover. I treat the Bible a little differently. I read it as I would a college textbook, a little at a time with a LOT of study in between. Believe me. I have read EVERY word of the Bible many, many times over.
Ezekiel:
I guess you read the parts you feel are important...
Response:
Yes I only read the parts that are important. Those are the parts between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21 inclusive.
Ezekiel:
Then you move on to claim teaching by Pollard and Rogers.....Now I am not sure but I don't think either of those godly men would have been too happy about one of their flock claiming to be emergent......
Response:
Obviously you have not read my post to carefully since the sarcasm of my statement flew right over your head.
Ezekiel:
Not one time have you claimed teaching by the Holy Spirit....by the WORD.....
Response:
I have no idea what you mean by that statement.
Heb 8:10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more."
Response:
So you really don't get the fact that we are the tools that Jesus uses to reach the unbelieving?
Ezekiel:
Now if you really have His laws in your heart and mind...Just where do you get the idea that we are to convict people of their unrighteousness and
where do you get the idea that our works are important to Him?
Response:
What do you think the meaning of Matthew 28 is?
And now if I may interpret you writing with the same peril of misinterpretating what you mean. It seems that you feel that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is only for the elect. He only convicts those through the Holy Spirit, that he chooses to convict. That, my friend is NOT supported by the very Word that you profess to study so intently. Over and over again Jesus commands us to spread the good news of a relationship with him. At the expense of using a Purpose-Driven code word we are to be seekers. (It is a shame that words such as seeker has been so misused by those that travel the wrong path.)
I also gather from your writings that the study of the Bible is a relatively new thing to you.
I implore that you read only after you prayerfully prepare yourself to recieve its blessings. For if you read the Bible as you have misread my quotes I fear that the meaning will escape you.
Ezekiel stated:
delivered by grace,
"If you are referring to my stance on "easy believeism" then I plead guilty. I take Jesus' words literally just as I take the rest of the Bible. I just don't believe that salvation is an ongoing process that has to be constantly renewed. Once redeemed though, I think the yearning to walk closer with God leads us to learn as mush about Him as is possible. And that is through the study of the Bible."
Hey, glad to see you are coming around!
Response:
My friend, I've been here for many moons. I do not understand what you think I am coming around from.
Ezekiel stated:
Otherwise you look more like a spiritual abortion than a living branch bearing fruit.
Response:
A spiritual abortion suggests that one is conceived in salvation but is aborted before one comes to full term. The inferrence is that if I were baptized by the Holy Spirit in accepting Christ and then do not follow through by immersing myself in the word then my salvation dies before it reaches full term.
Sorry, but I am of the firm belief that life begins at conception.
Junkster, the video of worship at Saddleback was informative. Who would have thought you could combine worship with a good aerobic workout? I almost expected them to choreograph jumping on a stairmaster or treadmill to the rhythm of the beat, or check their heart rate to see if they were getting a good "burn". Richard Simmons might have a video opportunity here! "Sweatin' to the Holy" I can hear him now.... okaaaaay! now kick, and kick, and kick, two, three, four, that's it.... praise heeem, yaaaas, and kick, and kick....come on people, paaaaaraise Heeeeem!
Exit question: is that high you feel the Spirit, or just endorphins released from your workout?
concernedsbcer said:
"Nish: Almost 10 years ago my family, along with about 12 other families, started a new church. Those were the sweetest times ever. All of one accord, truly, and all working and sacrificing together."
Thanks for your comments and offer of help, concerned. That's great that you experienced that closeness. You know, I think it takes all kinds of churches to minister in this world. Large ones have their place as do small ones. Small churches have the advantage of close relationship, accountability, and a sense that one really matters and would be missed if absent-- a feeling of belonging to a family. Large churches can have these characteristics too, but only if there is intentional effort to keep these in place, to guard against Anonymous becoming a member. Bellevue felt like family when I was a member. But it took leadership from the top to make it that way and keep it that way. If the pastor as a rudder steers a few degrees off center, look at the shipwreck of such a huge vessel! Large churches can work, but only if tended to vigilantly, guarding against sinking into self-sufficiency and foolishness like what you saw in the Saddleback video.
You know what I really loved about Dr. Rogers? His self-deprecating humor. He loved to poke fun at himself, and it kept him from getting too "ministerial". I think we need more of that type of attitude today, and less projecting of one's "pastoral image" and control.
God bless you.
ADRIANISMS
When asked to compromise in order to bring peace to the Southern Baptist Convention:
We don't have to get together.
The Southern Baptist Convention doesn't have to survive.
I don't have to be the pastor of Bellevue.
I don't have to live.
But I’M NOT going to compromise the WORD OF GOD
Vol One, pg 31
"If you are referring to my stance on "easy believeism" then I plead guilty. I take Jesus' words literally just as I take the rest of the Bible. I just don't believe that salvation is an ongoing process that has to be constantly renewed. Once redeemed though, I think the yearning to walk closer with God leads us to learn as mush about Him as is possible. And that is through the study of the Bible. "
I do not believe salvation is an going process, either. What gave you that idea? Our talk of sanctification?
"If you are referring to my stance on "easy believeism" then I plead guilty."
Easy believism means no repentence required. Do you believe that a person can be saved without repentence?
lynn said...
ima....I2 isn't like that....yet. Who knows though. With Warrens influence, I wouldn't be surprised at some point everyone will gather in a circle, sing Kumbaya, and pass around the peace pipe.
I have my own opinions (and let me emphasize that these are opinions) about I2 and the youth rallies. I've attended both out of curiousity, so I've seen both of them in person. Neither is part of a purpose-driven agenda. I believe that the pastor is staging these shows to highlight his future son-in-law's talents. He's trying to advance his singing career, but at a cost.
I won't let my oldest daughter attend the youth services because I don't think it's prudent to expose teenagers to such an emotionally charged environment on a regular basis. I also don't think these 'extravaganzas' foster spiritual growth or long term commitment to the church. Actually, I don't think they do much of anything.
I enjoy going to concerts as much as anyone, but I also enjoy going to church to worship without some kid with a guitar trying to manipulate my emotions.
IMO
Nish: As a followup, our church now has about 450 members, sits on 40 acres of land, has a sanctuary, a gym, and brand new ball fields. But getting here was a long process. When we started, there were no ball teams or Bible Drill....if we wanted something for our kids, we did it. I taught Bible Drill for 7 years to be sure my kids had that benefit. It took a year to write the by-laws, but they are good. They assure what happened to us before will not happen again, and that God will remain the center of our church, not a man. In 10 years, we are still a strong traditional, conservative Southern Baptist church. There have been people that have tried to steer in different directions, but we have held firm to the Word of God and to the culture of our church, which we believe is God-ordained.
Well that's what is much of the problem with the modern church...people are being entertained to death...and I'm speaking of spiritual death. There are no more gospel singers...they are "Christian artists"...which means it's no longer a ministry...it's a career disguised as ministry...and a lucrative one these days at that. Emotional manipulation has been the stock and trade of modern evangelism for some time.
gmommy said...
It's hard when you want someone else to do the research....
Hard to believe you haven't picked up on some issues other than his character...but for me personally...that would be enough.
I've done my research and can't find a false teaching. This label of being a false teacher is a much stronger accusation than ungodly character or greed or materialistic motivation.
Are you saying that SG is not saved? Are you saying that he does not believe and hold to the beliefs of the SBC or of BBC?
Wouldn't it be simple to give one instance where he taught contrary to the doctrine of the Gospel if there was one?
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but let's call a spade a spade. For someone to apply a label to SG that is not valid is simply the same thing as SG using scripture to defend his position.
As misguided, divisive, shallow, and destructive as his ministry has been, I need at least one example of a false teaching, per se.
lin...if you can recall the one you referenced but could not immediately remember, please let me know.
Placing an unearned label on someone just to strengthen an argument is poor judgment. Be careful not to stoop to the level of your adversary.
Apart from the semantics of the term false teaching, please agree that SG needs prayer. The same God that blessed Bellevue over the past century + is the same God who is in control of BBC today...and tomorrow!
He cares...so we should too.
3rd side: Maybe we need to define terms. What is your definition of false teaching?
I thought you guys would get a kick out of an exchange I had with a good friend about Junk's video...
He wrote: I don't think that's the way to go, but they are having a good time, aren't they?
Something to chew on (he says as he reaches for the big paddle to stir the pot): Why can't we have a good time like that? Where do you think the line is that shouldn't be crossed? That's really the question on LOTS of issues, isn't it?
My reply:Ah Ha....she says as she cracks her knuckles in preparation for a typing marathan....
I think the answer lies in reverence and respect. I see not much wrong, theoretically, with such a demonstration....at a U of M basketball game for example. (In fact the dancing actually reminded me of the Pom Squad.) I think the line is drawn in what is worship and what God considers worship. Watching the faces of the performers, I got the distinct impression they were doing it for them and not for God. Oh, I know, we can't judge motive...blah, blah, blah.....but actions mean things. What we do is just as important as what we say. They have to equal the same answer. The gyrating hips didn't seem to equal "My God is an Awesome God" to me.
Why can't we have a good time like that? Well, number one, we'd throw our backs out. Other than that, we do have a great time.....our socials usually leave me with a hurting stomach from laughing so much. Why must a good time be connected with things that go against scripture? I state that good times can be had without going against
1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
I think the line lies with not lowering God to our lowest common denominator. He is HOLY. He is Righteous. Why do some seem to think we need to approach Him on our basest terms instead of His terms? The casualness with which some approach the Throne and worship is a defilement of who He is, and what He has done for us. Instead of trying to approach Him down at our level, aren't we supposed to attain to be more like Him? Oh, I know....we can meet Him at any stage, at any place, in any valley. But are we supposed to camp there? Are we supposed to drag others down into our valley to meet with Him there? I say no.
Emotional manipulation has been the stock and trade of modern evangelism for some time.
No argument here, that's for sure.
delivered by grace,
I don't have a lot of time to discuss this with you today. Busy with family the next few days....
The readers here are sharp people...If they go back and look at our discussion from your first comment carefully, they will see how you have kept shifting and changing and coming around...to the real truth...the WORD. It is a shame that you have not felt the need to read the Bible from cover to cover, yet you admit reading novels from cover to cover....So you jack rabbit around and never get the real truth....the real WORD in context....Why don't you read the novels you discuss the same way...just jump around and study each chapter...each sentence deeply? Is it becasue deep down, you don't want to know how the story ends? Or because you have already decided for yourself how it ends...
You make it too hard....Just read it...cover to cover...in context..it is easy...
It will also be obvious to the reader of our conversation that when confronted with your error...you jump up and label me an inexperienced reader....and a calvanist.....I guess to discredit what I say and all I have been saying I have supported via scripture....I guess it bothers you that I have the WORD in context in a rather short time when you can't say the same and you have been studying for years....
So from the beginning of our conversation I have been called a Bible Idolater, a Calvanist and now an inexperienced reader....
The message I preach is simple and supported via the Gospel.
JUSTIFIED BY THE BLOOD
SANCTIFIED BY THE "WORD"
GLORIFIED IN HIS IMAGE
Abraham was the first example. Justified by faith, sanctified by the WORD and glorified in His image....when he offered Isaac on the altar....
The church, the real one...is and will be the same. Justified by His blood, sanctified by the WORD and glorified in His image.
Individualy, you and I will follow the same pattern...As members of the church..we are Justified by His blood, Sanctified by the WORD and Glorified in His image.
The position you started out with was that you were justified by His blood and sanctified by your works...No need for cleansing or feeding on the WORD. You never made it to His image. That is an abortion....a Spiritual abortion....
One final note on works...and at the risk of much peril, I attempt an earthly example....
Assuming you are married as I am..and understanding that the WORD in Ephesians and other scripture uses our earthly relationship with our wife to explain the relationship between Jesus and the Church...
Why did your wife marry you? Was it because of what you could "do " for her or because she loved you?
Why did you marry your wife? Was it because of what she could "do" for you? Or because you loved her.
If...you married her because you loved her, and she married you because you loved her....you have the marriage that God ordained...the one that looks like the relationship between Jesus and the Church.
On the other hand, if you married her for what she could do for you and/or she marrried you for what you could do for you then you have a marriage built on selfish desires and self centered importance...One or both of you will not submit to each other...and you will always be trying to buy the affection or love of the other by your WORKS. That apple pie sure is good...thanks for that diamond ring...Then the first time problems come up you will try to withhold those WORKS to bring about change in the other party...Now just where did love go?
Having said all that...look at your relationship with Jesus...did you decide to marry Him because of what He can do for you...sacrifice HIs life so that you can have all the "stuff" you need, or did you decide to marry Him because you know He loves you and gave himself for you...and them submit yourself to Him, and let Him feed you, wash you and give you life?
Did He sacrifice himself for you because of what you can do for Him? Or did He just love you and give himself for you, expecting only obedience to Him.
When we start looking at our works as being the basis for our relationship, everything goes wrong...Works should be the result of a happy marriage. The fruit....not the basis for it...
Does Jesus look at your works and say "Look, my love for him is shining through him and glorifying Me" or is he saying, I see your works but the glory you seek is for yourself and you have no love for me? You refuse my food and won't take a bath....
I hope that I have communicated my point well enough for those reading to understand...The whole idea that Jesus died on the cross so that He could marry a prostitute and "gold digger" is repugnant to me...His bride will be spotless and white after cleansing by the WORD. We are invited to the wedding...and provided a robe...a wedding garment to wear...and it is clean, righteous...and what do we have to do for it but TRUST and OBEY.
Delivered...forgive me for not coming back with a point by point rebuttal...just don't have the time today...
3rd side,
You can start with the false teaching of the Tithe. Then work your way around to the teaching of grace being extended with the purpose of protecting a pedaphile and keeping him in the ministry.
That alone should get you digging in the WORD deep enough that you can spot the false teaching going on. Without the discernment gained by time spent in the WORD the rest of teachings are subtle and usually result in a drift to serve a personal agenda. His teaching on church authority is another one.
So if you have time, go back, get the sermons where he has preached on Tithing, church authority annd tear them apart with your bible in your hand....
The total abandonment of the scriptural instruction of the handling of the pedaphile and the handling of the qualifications of a minister should bee enough to expose the false teaching...Now that He has been exposed, the deception will have to be handled more skillfully....in other words...it will be hard to spot without a good grounding in the WORD....Hey, there is another reason that knowing the WORD is so important! He helps us spot false teachers...
concernedSBCer said...
3rd side: Maybe we need to define terms. What is your definition of false teaching?
Answer: partial pasted post from last night...
3rdside said...
...I am asking for an example of a false teaching as referenced in this thread.
A false teaching would be something along the line of saying believer's baptism is optional according to the Bible.
...This whole situation is so depressing to me as a BBC member and I pray the God who built BBC will change ALL of our hearts to reflect His....
...Again, I am not requesting character flaws such as materistic motives, pride, greed, cover-up, mean-spirited, or self-serving. Those are well documented. What I have yet to be shown is a false teaching....
10:00 PM, July 11, 2007
I recently heard a quote by a pastor regarding pastors:
"Our first task is not to spread the Gospel, but to be worthy"
I wonder who said that?
3rd side,
Do you believe church discipline as it is given in Matthew 18 applies to all Christians or to a select few?
3rd side,
How about the qualifications of a pastor as outlined in scripture being just "guidelines"? Since when did a Bible believing, saved by grace Baptist believe that scripture was only "guidelines"?
3rdside,
I'm going to answer your question on false teaching.
1. His sermon on unity. I'm not going to go back to all the threads and pull everything, that's up to you, but in synopsis, SG preached that unity meant agreeing with those in authority. If you don't agree with the leadership (not just BBC, but anywehre), then you are not right with God. NOW, please tell me in the Word, where Jesus preached this. In fact, by the mere fact, he preached this, he was changing the whole ministry of Jesus. If Jesus was all about unity, all about being unified with those in leadership, then please explain to me why Jesus was at odds with the temple leaders, the Pharisees, the Sadducess, the lawyers, the scribes, etc? Why didn't he unify the people with the "religious leadership?" Can you not see this is a false teaching? Jesus DID NOT COME TO UNIFY!! Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost! Jesus came as the Messiah, but the leadership wanted no part of Him. Why? Because it would have done away with their cushy jobs and positions. What did Jesus call them in the end? Whited sepulchers. Jesus did not unify at all cost. Did Jesus try to work within the system? Yes, he taught in the synagogues, until, he was no longer accepted by the leadership. Then he went to the people. If we're to be unified at all cost, and that's what SG wants as well as those around him, then that is TOTALLY A FALSE TEACHING!!!
How about Paul? Did he teach unity at any cost? Did he ever disagree with those in leadership? Did he ever stand for truth, or stand against the leadership over a Bible principle? The answer to all is "YES!" Paul scolded Peter, because Peter did not love "all the sheep" at ALL TIMES! Peter was choosing when and where he was going to love all the sheep. Paul confronted him. What happened? Peter repented of his lack of love toward all men. (Remember this happened after God had sent Peter to a Gentile, and God had told Peter, none were unclean!) There wasn't unity at any cost, because Paul was going to stand on the TRUTH!
SG believes that the Bible is "only a guideline for a minister, that noone can measure up." Now let's break that down. What he's actually saying is, God is not big enough, not powerful enough, not strong enough, to have men who do meet the Biblical standard in today's world!!! I'll be honest with you this one just floors me. God told Elijah (Elisha, I'm always confused on those two), when Eli___? complained he was the only one standing on the Word, who cared about God, he had 7,000 men who had never bowed a knee to Baal. If God could do that then, He can't do that now. It's pretty depressing to me, if I believed that God was not preparing men to be in the pulpit, to shepherd, to lead, to guide, to feed, to comfort in the days and years to come should He delay the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I'm sorry, but it's false teaching to say that the Bible is "only a guideline, because noone measures up."
Now to the last issue. PW. SG totally and completely ignored the scriptures in regards to this issue. First of all, PW was immediately disqualified, ACCORDING TO THE WORD, to any longer be a minister. YET, SG DID NOTHING. It does not take an investigation to know what to do. SG did not report it to authorities. Again this is Biblical, because we are commanded to obey the laws of the land (as long as they do not go against the Word of God.) And, whether you believe me or not, SG had every intention of bringing PW back on staff, because he considered what PW had done as "under the blood." What does he mean by that? He's saying and he believes, there are no consequences to sin. Again, this is false teaching. No where in the Word of God, do you find that there are no consequences to sin. Does God sometimes give us mercy? YES! (And thank you O Father!) Does that mean that sometimes we can sometimes not pay the full consequences of our disobedience, our sin? YES! But there are consequences. Sometimes, we must face the full slate of consequences. Does that mean God didn't forgive us? No, it means that sometimes, we need to pay the consequences, just like we make our children face the consequences of their actions. God does this so that we'll never want to go down that path again. To teach, or even believe there are never consequences to sin is a FALSE TEACHING!
I'm sorry NASS that this has been so long. To those of you who did not take sometime to answer with specifics, you were a little harsh with 3rdside. PLEASE understand, I'm VERY WEARY of explaining and listing, but we are not to be "weary in well-doing". As long as someone is asking questions, I'll repeat it as many times as it takes.
SG is a false teacher. Why? Because he does not believe the whole WORD OF GOD, nor does he preach the whole WORD OF GOD, nor does he live the whole WORD OF GOD. I'm not being harsh, I'm being truthful.
And there is no "3rd side" - it is true or false, black or white, Scriptural or unscriptural.
There are no "grey areas" and no maybe.
Ezekial wrote:
If they go back and look at our discussion from your first comment carefully, they will see how you have kept shifting and changing and coming around...to the real truth...the WORD."
That is what I am seeing from this person, too. The second comment content was nothing like the first.
My radar detector may be faulty but I sense someone trying to trap. I do believe Jon does this, too.
It is obvious this person thinks the Doctrines of Grace are not biblical so why bother discussing this further? That becomes ciruclar debate making everything man centered so why bother?
"A false teaching would be something along the line of saying believer's baptism is optional according to the Bible."
What does that mean for the thief on the cross?
You keep asking for something that you are going to have to do for yourself. We could give you examples..some already have...but you don't think they are false teaching so what is the point?
YOu want to know how hard this is going to be? Read Matthew 7 real close.
Alot of people say the same thing about Rick Warren..where is the false teaching? It took me months to go through PDL WITH a discernment tool to list all the out of context false teaching. Of course, some will read it and say, well...it kinda sorta fits. It really depends on how serious you take the Word because they are always subtle.
We are warned all over the NT for a good reason. This was even happening in the early church.
3rd side: I think we are disagreeing on the definition of false teaching. I believe that anything that twists or distorts scripture is false teaching.
you said: "A false teaching would be something along the line of saying believer's baptism is optional according to the Bible."
Optional for what? To gain entrance to heaven or to become a member of a church? Believer's Baptism is not required to gain entrance to Heaven....death bed salvation experiences, thief on the cross "This day you shall be with me in paradise"......it is a culture, a tradition, in our church. It is following an example set by Jesus when John baptized Him. And I agree it is important. But I look at false teaching as taking scripture out of context to make it fit what you want to say.
This example of false teaching was addressed by Paul in several places, as well as other places in the NT.
Galatians 1:7-12 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Corinthians 11:12-13 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
Leading others away from the meaning and context of scripture has to considered false teaching.
Continually Amazed: Your 1:22 post was excellent. Thank you for doing such a good job of spelling it out.
Continually said...
"To those of you who did not take sometime to answer with specifics, you were a little harsh with 3rdside. PLEASE understand, I'm VERY WEARY of explaining and listing, but we are not to be "weary in well-doing". As long as someone is asking questions, I'll repeat it as many times as it takes."
Sorry, I thought I was being specific and not everyone has the time to elaborate, especially to someone who has neither eyes to see nor ears to hear. This person (3rdside) knows all about all that Steve Gaines is doing and s/he has posted under other names before with different versions of the same questions.
I will refrain from posting "short" replies if you think it will do any good, but I doubt it. Trolls One.
Mom4: Don't worry.....Truthseekers win in the end. I've read the end of the book.
"To those of you who did not take sometime to answer with specifics, you were a little harsh with 3rdside."
Thanks for the great answer you gave 3rdsideorwayor...
but, I am a little perplexed at this statement. I thought Mom4 asked some good questions and if 3rdside would answer her questions, it would help to know where 3rd is coming from and go from there. At this point, we do not know if 3rd thinks Matthew 18 is for everyone including pastors or thinks 1 Timothy is only 'guidelines' for elders.
concerned,
I have read that same book too! The way I see it, the troll's purpose is to divide and cause distress, and it all to often works, however I guess my seasoning is too spicy for some of more gracious leanings. My bad:)
Thanks!
continually amazwd
I just read your post. Thanks for standing in the gap for those of us who are growing a teeny bit weary.
I've been posting since ... October, I guess, and I have gotten tired of saying the same thing over and over again.
I heard John MacArthur say, this morning, not to stay under the teaching of a false prophet for one minute once you discover what they are or you may, too, be deceived. I am afraid many are being lulled into a dangerous state of denial - and are becoming putty in the hands of this man.
I spoke to one such dear lady today. SG performed the funeral for a family member and she now seems as though her eyes have glazed over and she cannot receive the truth anymore. This was not so the last time we spoke. It is very eerie and very sad to watch. These people are putting themselves and their children in spiritual danger by trying to rationalize away this man's dreadful behaviour and erroneous teachings.
A teen in the highschool dept. told my son, when he made a Joel Osteen joke, "Hey, don't make jokes about him. He's one of God's annointed!"
Wonder where he heard that...
3rdside,
As Lin and I said previously, the term "false teacher" as used in the New Testament refers not only to someone with major doctrinal error, but also to someone who distorts or misuses scripture, or sets aside certain scriptural truths (does not teach the whole counsel of God; i.e., the scripture in context of and in harmony with all of God's truth). Others have provided several specific examples since. If you're looking for a situation in which SG stood up behind the pulpit and denied the virgin birth or something like that, you won't find it. The term for that would be "heretic". The term "false teacher" encompases much more subtle errors than that, including misleading or distorting (Greek diastrepho, Acts 20:30). The New Testament focus is not on the nature or content of the error so much as it on the selfish and dishonest character of the person using their position for personal and ungodly ends rather than for sincere service to Christ. Hope this helps.
Howdy Everyone,
Just skimming a few posts trying to catch up a little since we've been away, but I must say the 1:22 post from Amazed hit the nail on the head. SG is disqualified by those points alone and there's a bargeload more besides.
concernedSBCer said...
Continually Amazed: Your 1:22 post was excellent. Thank you for doing such a good job of spelling it out.
I second that emotion!
(Yeah, I know now y'all will be annoyed at having Smokey Robinson's singing that stuck in your heads.)
Concernedscber, Your 2:30 PM post left me Feelin' Groovy, too!
(Great! Smokey Robinson AND Simon & Garfunkel in the head!)
Continually Amazed...
What a brilliant job you have done in responding to this subject at hand. You are to commended for standing for Truth, which is at the heart of the matter in the churches. I do not attend Bellevue which you may of may not know...but I am appalled at the attitude of so many toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you so much for tending to the questions of false teaching. Tremendous job.
I mirror the comments by Piglet in that I have been at this for a long time now...but no matter, will continue to stay at it all in the name of defending Jesus. Standing for Jesus Christ is beyond words in humbling ourselves before our God!
Ima
From this Sunday's bulletin:
Notice of Information Meeting
There will be an information meeting on Sunday, July 29, at 4:00 p.m. in the Fellowship Hall.
During this meeting, members can ask questions they may have pertaining to the Annual Financial Report.
continuallyamazed said...
SG preached that unity meant agreeing with those in authority. If you don't agree with the leadership (not just BBC, but anywehre), then you are not right with God.
This is a bold accusation which I believe needs to be supported by a 1st person source.
How about Paul? Did he teach unity at any cost? Did he ever disagree with those in leadership? Did he ever stand for truth, or stand against the leadership over a Bible principle? The answer to all is "YES!" Paul scolded Peter, because Peter did not love "all the sheep" at ALL TIMES! Peter was choosing when and where he was going to love all the sheep. Paul confronted him. What happened? Peter repented of his lack of love toward all men. (Remember this happened after God had sent Peter to a Gentile, and God had told Peter, none were unclean!) There wasn't unity at any cost, because Paul was going to stand on the TRUTH!
If this thought (unity at all cots) were accepted in the late 60's to late 90's, there would have never been a conservative resurgence. Again, I think it necessary for a 1st person source be given to prove this is what SG espouses.
SG believes that the Bible is "only a guideline for a minister, that noone can measure up." Now let's break that down. What he's actually saying is, God is not big enough, not powerful enough, not strong enough, to have men who do meet the Biblical standard in today's world!!! I'll be honest with you this one just floors me. God told Elijah (Elisha, I'm always confused on those two), when Eli___? complained he was the only one standing on the Word, who cared about God, he had 7,000 men who had never bowed a knee to Baal. If God could do that then, He can't do that now. It's pretty depressing to me, if I believed that God was not preparing men to be in the pulpit, to shepherd, to lead, to guide, to feed, to comfort in the days and years to come should He delay the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I'm sorry, but it's false teaching to say that the Bible is "only a guideline, because noone measures up."
I agree with all you are saying in reference to the Bible and God but to accuse SG of this need a 1st person source.
On the PW issue I have previously given my position and it lines up with yours. This has a 1st person source and this action alone should be enough to step down. Sadly the church chose to let him stay and it is pretty much a moot issue. Just fodder for frustration (the church allowing him to remain, not the action taken by SG).
SG is a false teacher. Why? Because he does not believe the whole WORD OF GOD, nor does he preach the whole WORD OF GOD, nor does he live the whole WORD OF GOD. I'm not being harsh, I'm being truthful.
Saying it is one thing,proving it is another and it has yet to be proved. Please give 1st person sources for this information, until then there is not much anyone can do but ignore it. Also, it is not our place to prove your statements. If this is the case (what you accuse) I will be glad to make contact with SG and ask others who would have much more influence than I to do likewise.
Can you give proof or just accusations?
Jon: I'll bet your wife would love to watch a good movie with you.
:)
Listen to the downloads.
Re-read the first person accounts.
Actions mean things.
Words mean things.
It's not rocket science.
From this Sunday's bulletin:
Notice of Information Meeting
There will be an information meeting on Sunday, July 29, at 4:00 p.m. in the Fellowship Hall.
During this meeting, members can ask questions they may have pertaining to the Annual Financial Report.
I wonder how they will respond to a member's question if someone from the media is there with a copy of the statue pertaining to non-profit disclosures. Will they tell the members that it is none of their business even though the law demands full disclosure? Or could the media be under pressure from the "haves" instead of standing up for the "have nots"
What is a 1st person source?
Jon L. Estes said...
On the PW issue I have previously given my position and it lines up with yours. This has a 1st person source and this action alone should be enough to step down. Sadly the church chose to let him stay and it is pretty much a moot issue. Just fodder for frustration (the church allowing him to remain, not the action taken by SG).
This statement reflects a fundamental difference of persective between you and most of the posters on this blog. Experience has shown that there is no true mechanism in place for the congregation to act on anything other than what is allowed by SG and his supporters, who are controlling the governance of the church. So when you state that the church chose to let SG stay, it indicates that either (1) you don't understand that the church (as in the whole congregation) wasn't given a choice or voice in the matter or (2) you don't think that a collective congregational decision is required to say that the church made a choice (i.e., "the church" doesn't mean every member, it's just the folks ruling over BBC). Either way (or even if you have some other perspective), your statement reflects thinking that doesn't match up with what most posters here consider reality. Perhaps that is why what seems a "moot point" to you is still very much an issue to those who feel the church's leadership has disenfranchised those with serious concerns about SG's fitness to remain as pastor.
concernedSBCer said...
Jon: I'll bet your wife would love to watch a good movie with you.
:)
Listen to the downloads.
Re-read the first person accounts.
Actions mean things.
Words mean things.
It's not rocket science.
7:06 PM, July 12, 2007
Show me the words. I did not make the accusation and it is not I who should provide the source. If you want to be people of Truth, then show the words.
I don't think you would support un-sourced accusations like this against you or a member of your family. As I stated, provide the source and I will make contact with SG. I will go to my friends and ask them to make contact.
Don't ask me to do your homework.
Lin,
Give a link to the sermon where SG said this. Show the false teaching, don't just state it as so. If it is truth, then there is something out there to prove it.
Hypothetically, If someone accused a person very close to you of molesting a child, as bad as that is and should never be, you would want proof before you labeled the person. Am I correct? What would you say to the person making such an accusation who says, its true but it is up to you to go find out the facts for yourself?
As someone stated, this is not rocket science.
Junkster,
If the church body, as a majority, did not revolt they chose to let him stay by their non-action. This is more as to what I was thinking.
Jon: I've done my homework. You are way out of line, sir.
You are ignorant of the facts, or plain refuse to acknowledge them. You said: "Sadly the church chose to let him stay and it is pretty much a moot issue. Just fodder for frustration (the church allowing him to remain, not the action taken by SG." The POINT, sir, is that there WAS NO ACTION taken by the leadership. SG KNEW about PW 6 months before the church. The only way the church found out was from Saving Bellevue and this blog. The church finding out was what made SG take action in the first place. Without this blog, PW would still be a minister, "counseling" victims of sexual abuse, having access to innocent children. SG had no intention of doing the right thing, the lawful thing. He is not fit to shepherd a congregation.
Your ignorance has reached new lows.
Jon wrote:
"Show me the words. I did not make the accusation and it is not I who should provide the source. If you want to be people of Truth, then show the words."
We've been showing the words for 11 months! You just haven't been around to read them. Spend some time in the archives of this blog, the "Featured Items" page of Saving Bellevue, and the "Events" page of IDC. You can't do it in one night, one week, and probably not in one month. It takes a lot of time to read and digest it all, but it's there if you're willing to make the effort.
"As I stated, provide the source and I will make contact with SG. I will go to my friends and ask them to make contact."
Go read for yourself, but I can tell you now that he'll simply deny everything. Rather David Coombs will deny everything. I doubt Steve Gaines would give you the time of day.
"Don't ask me to do your homework."
And don't ask us to do yours!
Jon: Another example of your ignorance of this situation.
You said: If the church body, as a majority, did not revolt they chose to let him stay by their non-action. This is more as to what I was thinking."
It's hard to do something about what you don't know! SG and 2 other ministers KNEW.....they were responsible for their actions.
You go do some homework. It'll take a lot of time....trust me. Most of us here have invested TONS of time seeking the truth about the situation and leadership at BBC. You go invest the time, because it's all there.
As I said....it's not rocket science. It just takes time and knowledge of the scriptures.
Have fun.
Jon,
Let me sum up your opinion of us.
You think we're just a bunch of kooks who don't have a brain.
Why not you help stop global warming and be quiet. Because what your saying ain't hitting on nothing on Lynn. What your saying is just DUMMMMMB. You do not understand one iota what these people have gone through. And sadly, you probably never will.
And now folks, ya'll can send me to Bolivar now for quoting Ophelia Ford.
ATTENTION! THERE'S A NEW THREAD (ACTUALLY A CONTINUATION OF THIS ONE) IF YOU'D LIKE TO MOVE UP.
Lin's left some pithy comments for Jon.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
Lest there be any misunderstanding, these are the basic tenets of my beliefs.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God
-Paul
I think my previous statements have supported this passage. It is my cornerstone belief of God's grace. Man's sins have alienated us from God. God provided a plan for repatriation with man. That plan was to provide His Son as a sacrifical lamb to pay for the sins that man has committed or will commit. This requires for the sacrificial lamb to be completely sinless. Jesus is this sacrificial lamb. God provides this path to Him freely, at no cost to man. I would term that as grace. This grace has no qualifications or prerequisites such as the grantee of the grace agreeing to suffer afflictions from God. If grace had conditions, it would no longer be grace. I would conclude then that grace is biblical. For anyone to come to any other conclusion from my statements is completely asinine and a total misrepresentation of my convictions.
I believe that the only action necessary for man to be reunited with God is to accept God's gift of grace by accepting that Jesus is without sin and is capable and willing to pay the price of our sins. By believing in Jesus' qualifications to die for our sins and accepting the fact that Jesus died for our own personal sins, one becomes becomes redeemed of their sins. That is the bottom line; believe that Jesus is sinless but yet willing to die for your sins and accept His grace. From that point on throughout eternity, you are now one of His children. It is permanent and requires no other action on the believer's part.
Matthew 10:32
"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. -Jesus Christ
I also believe that this gift of salvation is so simple a child can understand an accept it, while learned scholars can fail to grasp the grace of God.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. -Jesus Christ
Faith in Jesus is childlike.
You state I fail to see the importance of Bible study. I do not fail to see it. But I also know that continued Bible study is not a prerequisite to salvation.
39One of the criminals who were hanged there (at the side of Christ) was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!"
40But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41"And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
42And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
43And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
This man was a thief, a sinner. In verse 41 he confessed his sins. In verse 42 the sinner trusted in Christ to deliver him from his sins. In verse 43 Jesus promised the sinner that he would be with Him. This man did not have time to devote a lot of time to Bible study. He was dying as he spoke. Jesus saved him from his sins. I have no question that the thief on the cross beside Jesus resides with Jesus today. As a matter of fact I KNOW that thief is with Jesus, because Jesus said so.
You say that I have set traps for you to fall in; that I do not believe that grace is biblical. The traps are there, but they were not set by me. The traps were set by Satan. Satan knows the scriptures better than any man. The traps are that you must strive for a closer walk with God BEFORE God will save you. He tells you that you can make yourself worthy of God by continually cleansing and prayer. He tells you that your charity and piousness prepares you for a close walk with God. He decieves you into working your way into fellowship with God. He convinces you that accepting God's gift of grace is not good enough for you to reach God. Many of Satan's own are pious Bible scholars that can quote scripture chapter and verse from memory, yet they have been blinded from the acceptance of the grace of God and salvation through Jesus Christ that even a child can see.
I study the Bible every day. I have a hunger to learn more about God. We all want to know all we can about the ones we love. A love affair with Jesus is no different. If you show me someone who professes his love for Jesus yet has no desire to know Him better then I would question his love in the first place. But there are those that do not have the faculties to read and understand the beauty and wonders of the Bible. They may lack the intelligence to read and comprehend the Bible. But, as that thief, if they realize thet the only way they can reach God is to confess their sins and accept that Jesus paid the price for ther sins, and they trust Jesus to deliver them from their sins, then they to will join Jesus in Paradise.
Revelation 3:20
'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. -Jesus Christ
Belief is easy. Salvation is simple. How do I know? Jesus told me so.
41"And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
42And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
43And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
delieverd, thanks for pointing out that there was confession and repentence.
I am still not clear on your first comment on this thread and the point of it.
From my 11:33 post:
"That is the problem that I have with all these folks that tell me that they can just believe and salvation is assured. They claim salvation through faith...belief like Abraham did in Gen 15. (by the way, when one thinks of faith and belief, it may help to put it into the context of Abraham and Isaac) is your belief strong enough to obey Him like Abraham did?
AND,
"Otherwise you look more like a spiritual abortion than a living branch bearing fruit. Examine your fruit...is it "works" and all touchy feely emotion? Or is it faith in the Rock and obedience to the WORD....the one you claim we have no need of knowing..... "
You can find more support for my stance against "easy believism" in Heb 3,4,5.
Heb 3: 16For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
Think about it. Here the WORD tells us that the hebrews that He delivered out of Egypt with many "signs and wonders", people that actually walkeD across the bottom of the Red Sea, People that were led by a cloud and a pillar of fire and people that were fed by manna from heaven....
DID NOT BELIEVE....
Heb 4: 1Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.[a] 3For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
"As I swore in my wrath,
'They shall not enter my rest,'"
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works." 5And again in this passage he said,
"They shall not enter my rest."
6Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."
8For if Joshua had given them rest, God[b] would not have spoken of another day later on. 9So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
So when you say you believe the Gospel, that you believe in Christ yet fail to obey the Gospel, fail to obey Christ then you are in extreme danger of "believing" as the Hebrews did that wandered and died in the wildernes, never entering into His Rest......
Willow Creek conference 2007 features virulent blasphemy and open espousal of so-called homosexual " christians ".
willow conferennce 2007 blasphemy low-lights
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