Wednesday, July 04, 2007
Serving the Body or Serving Steve Gaines?
It's deacon nomination time again, and the qualifications have been outlined in this insert from the July 1st Bellevue Today.
It seems a few things have been added to the Scriptural qualifications -- such as adherence to the BF&M 2000 (which our pastor had a large role in penning) and "lifting up the hands of the pastor," the latter being a variation of the wording in the infamous "deacon loyalty oath" that apparently died on the vine. That letter, which all the deacons were requested (required?) to sign, but which many refused, read as follows:
Brothers,
At the conclusion of our Deacons meeting that followed the evening service, all who were present unanimously approved the following motion:
"The 2006 active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church met November 5th after the evening service and unanimously approved the following motion. We the active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church wish to convey to our Church family our affirmation of Dr. Steve Gaines as God’s appointed and God’s anointed Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church. We commit ourselves before God and our Church family to serve with loyalty under his leadership and to free him up to do the work to which God has called him to do. We publicly demonstrate our loyalty to Pastor Gaines by signing our name to this motion and standing before the Church congregation in each of the morning worship services on November 19, 2006."
Over the next few days, each Vice Chairman will be calling the men in their group to go over the motion and answer any questions. The motion requires each Deacon to sign his name to the motion indicating his public approval of the motion, so please go to the Events Registration Center to sign it. If you have any reservations in signing this motion, please discuss it with your Vice Chairman. I want to reiterate that every Deacon that was present in the Deacons meeting following the service unanimously approved this motion, with the understanding they were to sign it and to stand before the congregation on November 19th. Our congregation needs to know where the Deacons stand during these challenging days.
Chuck
Steve Gaines has stated that he is not accountable to the deacon body. Therefore, it appears "service," as outlined in these qualifications, is a one-way street. We have many fine men serving as deacons, and certainly not all bow to the "demands" of the pastor, but some do.
You may recall the letter from Charles and Pam Gremillion to the deacons and some of the deacons' responses.
Now the "Pastor's Pit Crew," a group of children who have volunteered to pray for the pastor, have received their first assignment. Praying for the pastor is something we all should do. That's not the point. However, maybe it's "just me," but this sounds a little too much like loyalty to a man.
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540 comments:
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aog wrote:
"jon,
You should step back and take a look at that statement, because it looks very close to saying you're purposely baiting people to try and pick a fight...so you can then point out how graceless they are?"
I concur. It sounds like that's exactly what you're doing, Jon. Why in the world is it worth your time hanging out here? Is playing tag team with the troll that much fun? Really, you do seem to have an ulterior motive.
2:27 PM, July 07, 2007
I have clearly stated my ulterior motive on several occasions and I am not playing tag team with anyone.
If I had an ulterior motive to bait anyone I would not let it be known who I am (name given), where I pastor (as my blog indicates), what I think (as my blog indicates) or what I look like (as seen on ,y blog).
For all who read these posts, I am probably the most identifiable. I am willing to let my yes be yes and my no be no. I am not fearful of anyone knowing who I am or where my heart lies.
Someone stated a few threads back they did not know my e-mail as it was not on my blog. For that person (and I am not going to hunt them down) it is jonestes@gmail.com
Each of you are in my prayers.
He just can't help himself....
From an earlier post...
I agree with you. He is certainly willing to pose questions to direct the conversation where he apparently wants it to go. When he doesn't like the answer, he denies the answer has been made, and launches into a pious, self pity, type of why are you picking on me circular argument. Casting bait for conflict or rebukes from fellow bloggers while maintaining a holier than thou attitude. The whole Sotl, OC, Jon conversation is the latest example.
Meanwhile if one looks back, any substantive discussion usually turns to someone "picking" on Jon...
Rather than discussing the current problems and scriptural solutions.....the focus has to be Jon.....now who gets the glory for that......
12:59 PM, July 04, 2007
Colossians 2
1For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face, 2that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. 5For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.
Alive in Christ
6Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
8See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authorities[b] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.[c]
Let No One Disqualify You
16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions,[d] puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
20If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations-- 21"Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" 22(referring to things that all perish as they are used)--according to human precepts and teachings? 23These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
How do we continue to justify a life in sin,,,calling sin mistakes to minimize the seriousness....when we have this to study on...
3Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."
7It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
12Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.
How do we say..."we are all sinners" and we continue to sin, repeatedly, intentionally.....
The whole attitude that we make mistakes and we can't help it but God is gracious and will not remember our sins is nothing more than a fleshly argument of justification for not striving to become holy. I know He says in the new covenant Heb 8 that He will remember our sins no more......
But this is after.....after Jesus abides in me and I in Him. After I am crucified to fleshly desires and resurected to a new life in Him......He won't remember all the sins I committed getting there...
Understanding Nass has a life and cannot moderate the blog all the time, I thought I'd send on a list of possibilities as to where she has been....for your enjoyment of course (since Dr. Loney has been away in Mexico)
Maybe her trolling motor is out of gas and, being out in the wilds of Minnesota, had to drive a long way for more
Maybe her fingers stuck to the keyboard after she spewed sweet tea
Maybe she escaped from her parents basement and she's gone shopping at the Mall of America
Maybe SG discovered her identity and took a group of men over to her place to "reconcile"
Maybe Donna "took out the trash" and she's in a landfill trying to boot up her computer on solar power
Maybe Nass has had too many antihistamines and is now at Starbucks with Why and Watching
Maybe she had a change of heart and is over at BBC constructing the newest shrine to Steve and Donna (and as a reward they're letting her wear one of Donna's tiaras)
Maybe she got sent to moderation purgatory, and the powers that be can't figure out if comment moderation or banning folks from an "open" forum is a sin or not
OR
Maybe she's taking a well-deserved break from the stress of moderating NBBCOF
Thank you, Nass!
Then we have this....
Hebrews 6
The Peril of Falling Away
1Therefore (A)leaving (B)the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to (C)maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from (D)dead works and of faith toward God,
2of (E)instruction about washings and (F)laying on of hands, and the (G)resurrection of the dead and (H)eternal judgment.
3And this we will do, (I)if God permits.
4For in the case of those who have once been (J)enlightened and have tasted of (K)the heavenly gift and have been made (L)partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and (M)have tasted the good (N)word of God and the powers of (O)the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is (P)impossible to renew them again to repentance, (Q)since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those (R)for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and (S)close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
When we continue to sin we put Him to an open shame...He will not be crucified again.....What sacrifice then do you expect to be the propetiation for the sins you commit after you know better?
This is where we are going.....unless we just accept a life of sin.....explain it away away, make excuses, call it a mistake...
Put On the New Self
1Therefore if you have been (A)raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, (B)seated at the right hand of God.
2(C)Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3For you have (D)died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4When Christ, (E)who is our life, is revealed, (F)then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
5(G)Therefore consider (H)the members of your earthly body as dead to (I)immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
6For it is because of these things that (J)the wrath of God will come [a]upon the sons of disobedience,
7and (K)in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
8But now you also, (L)put them all aside: (M)anger, wrath, malice, slander, and (N)abusive speech from your mouth.
9(O)Do not lie to one another, since you (P)laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
10and have (Q)put on the new self who is being (R)renewed to a true knowledge (S)according to the image of the One who (T)created him--
Cheap Grace or the claim of it, is to suggest that we can live as we want to and Jesus' blood will cover what ever we want to do....That folks is a lie...
It has taken me quite a while to get caught up and I have a question for Lin
You say "Without Holiness we can not see God"
I agree - but are you referring to our own holiness or to Christ's Holiness which has been imputed to us when we repent, turn from our sin, and accept His payment on the cross for our sin?
A New and Living Way
Heb 10: 19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Christ or Judgment
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has )insulted the Spirit of grace?
30For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY " And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Why? After all it was all just a mistake....Right?
concernedsbcer,
Exactly my point! Those who support Steve Gaines' actions seem to think that all is well because some people are joining the church. Only God knows their hearts and whether they are saved or are responding to the "dumbed down, feel good" philosophy that is being promoted from the pulpit and many BFC classes now at BBC. If they are gettng saved, they are responding to God's Word, not the man presenting it, even when the scripture is taken out of context.
I read an early post recently by someone from WJXBC who stated that Steve Gaines' problem was arrogance (see Nov 2,06), but I believe it is much deeper than that.
As a classic narcissist, Steve Gaines knows no fear, in his mind he knows everything, is right about the covering of his sin in order to protect his empire, and his desired end result justifies the ruthless methods he uses. If the fear of the Lord were present in the pulpit, none of this would be happening.
Estes wrote: One of the first response to my use of the term mistake was addressed to that person and I responded as led. "
That would be me.
Estes wrote: "It was then I stepped back to see, not because I desired the attention but because, for some reason, my words became the attention. No one has asked me what I meant but have shared what they meant and through that inferred my words were less than biblically correct."
Reply: In all communication, understanding of what is said or written is the responsiblity of the communicator. Of course, we should ask questions if we do not understand so as to clarify.
However, to lay the blame on the recipient of your original comment about 'mistakes' is a bit much...I have to assume that what I write people will understand as such.
Here is your first comment on this thread where 'mistakes' were referenced:
Estes: I think the most plausible answer would be that the church is filled with people who still make mistakes and sometimes live selfishly rather than selflessly."
Reply: At the risk of sounding legalistic...is being selfish a sin or a mistake?
Now, we have gone full circle again with Mr. Estes who is now telling us he did this on purpose so he could sit back and view the misinterpretations of his comment.
Sir, I just do not understand you or your intentions. Are we now to wonder if everything you post is some kind of test or trick? Whether it is or not, the final analysis remains: Mistakes and sins are not the same thing.
I pray your congregation knows the difference.
jon,
Once again you read something that was not addressed to you...go back and read...s l o w l y. I was directly addressing "why".
Now you can make your very own "agreeable sheep"! Here are the instructions.
Thanks to Mary for this link!
Concernedsbcer said, in part:
Understanding Nass has a life and cannot moderate the blog all the time,...
oc says:
Maybe that 15 yr old terrorist girl was able to check one off her list.
Just sayin'.
oc.
aog wrote:
"I was directly addressing 'why'."
Which is akin to trying to teach a pig to sing... it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
AOG,
I missed the "why" (first word used) as being the address but thought it was part of the sentence.
I do apologize.
Lin...
Reply: At the risk of sounding legalistic...is being selfish a sin or a mistake?
A sin.
Now, we have gone full circle again with Mr. Estes who is now telling us he did this on purpose so he could sit back and view the misinterpretations of his comment.
Where did I say I did this on purpose? I said...
I have posted very little on this thread for the purpose of seeing how for the mistaken interpretation of my comment would go.
I should have used the term far instead of for, as has been pointed out.
Except for the typo of far, it should be clear that my decision to not posting was a choice made after the misinterpretation, not prior. Therefore I did not post to stir anything up or make it about me. I thought this debate over mistake would last two or three posts then the subject would change. It did not, so I stepped in.
Sir, I just do not understand you or your intentions. Are we now to wonder if everything you post is some kind of test or trick? Whether it is or not, the final analysis remains: Mistakes and sins are not the same thing.
My decision to watch was due to the fact that the comments criticizing the use of the term mistake came without even an attempt to ask what I meant.
I pray your congregation knows the difference.
5:31 PM, July 07, 2007
And I pray you ask your people to clarify things before you let lose with inaccurate statements against them.
my 5:01 post was Hebrews 12....sorry for the omission.....mistake
jon
You said, "I missed the "why" (first word used) as being the address but thought it was part of the sentence.I do apologize."
Comment: So tell me jon, was this a sin or a mistake?
Is an apology the same as asking forgiveness? Should you have ask aog's forgiveness instead of apologizing?
just saying...
(with apologies to oc)
Maybe 'why' and 'watching' should team up (maybe they already have) and start a new martial art.
"Whyching."
Kind of catchy, isn't it?
Let's all study Whyching. Uh, let's not.
ima said:
just saying...
(with apologies to oc)
oc says:
Miss Ima, please never apologize to me. That is on my agenda to you for a long time.
Respectfully,
Just sayin',
oc.
I saw a few days back that they are finally hiring someone to replace the many staff members that have left. I have lost track of the number that have left but I expect that the ratio is close to 1 in, 10 out. Now I'm no genius but in the business world that is called downsizing. Of course downsizing never effects the higher ups and their income level, but it does look like some of these supposedly incredibly intelligent businessmen that we have could see the results of these mistakes and decide that it was time to make some changes. Then again, maybe not. It has become questionable if pride has not overcome intelligence with a great number of these fellows.
Stayedonthee,
Not sure but I think that was in my Heb 12 post....
To answer your question, my holiness.....The holiness that I have because He abides in me and I abide in Him.....
The ONLY way that I can be holy is when He truly is in me. That is the point that I have been trying to make.
It is hard to understand and I still struggle with it. I certainly know that all the righteousness that I can muster on my own is but filthy rags....but with Him in me, when the Holy Spirit lives in me, after I have died to myself....I become holy. A brother in fact.....
I can't really say just when that happens....crucifying the flesh....my flesh will probably take a while....
1 Corinthians 1:18
[ The Wisdom of God ] For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:17-19 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
2 Corinthians 2:15
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing;
Emphasis on "being saved". Is it a process or does it happen instantly? Being saved requires indwelliing of the Holy Spirit....The question is, how long does it take Him to move in.....and How long does it take to refine me?
I think this happens after much refining, and refining is accomplished through affliction.....His Grace.
btw jon,
I haven't made it that difficult for anyone to know who I am...a great many on this blog already do..and i'm sure quite a few who aren't. If someone wanted to know who I am bad enough they could find out. I don't know why you think that would be so bad for me...anyone who knows me already knows I'm a sinner...as for what else could happen to me...well only the Lord knows that. I don't lose a lot of sleep over that.
I ran across something weeks ago and have devoted quite a bit of study to it. It isn't my thoughts but it is directly from the Word of God. This has probably been posted before but it is certainly worth posting again.
Jerimiah 23:32
Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
This entire chapter is enlightening and relevant to us today. The Word does not change it is always relevant and always on target.
Tim said: "The Word does not change it is always relevant and always on target."
That is why the "application" approach that so many pastors seem to be using isn't as good as the expository approach. Bouncing around the scripture to make it say what you want isn't as profitable as going through book by book or section by section. As you study scriptures, the applications to your life will be apparent because of the study of the scriptures in context. imho
AOG said,
btw jon,
I haven't made it that difficult for anyone to know who I am...a great many on this blog already do..and i'm sure quite a few who aren't. If someone wanted to know who I am bad enough they could find out. I don't know why you think that would be so bad for me...anyone who knows me already knows I'm a sinner...as for what else could happen to me...well only the Lord knows that. I don't lose a lot of sleep over that.
oc says:
AOG, I know who you are bro. You're not hard to hunt down. I'm not either, am I? Email is up. And AOG, you certainly are a sinner. So am I. Cleansed by the blood of Christ. He died for our sins; sins, I say.
AOG, mistakes vs sins. May I ask you if He died for the shot I didn't make from the three point line? If that is the case, I'll never play basketball again. Tell solomon and jon that I am a bad shooter. Maybe they can pray for my mistakes. But maybe you and I can pray for my sins. I'll go with you AOG.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Really good today....
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/
Pick up your sword......Let God handle the grace....
Concerned,
Right on!, your 5:03 pm post, way to go!
Maybe SG discovered NASS's identity and took a group of men over to to "reconcile"
These men should be very afraid, as long as NASS has been locked in the parents dark basement, they could encounter the LochNASS monster, with a tiara of course.
I also heard there is a high wall, a moat and drawbridge around that place, but they could probably just step-over that itty-bitty wall; no trespassing, no matter.
Tim said...
I have lost track of the number that have left but I expect that the ratio is close to 1 in, 10 out.
Call me dense or maybe it's just a heat stroke from cutting the grass today.
The first time I read this I thought it was 1 in every 10 are leaving, but on second look it seems as if it's 1 stays, 10 go, if it's the latter that's a whole lot of staff folks leaving.
Tim or anybody, can you help me with this.
Ezekiel you did mention holiness, but I was referring to Lin's 7:32 pm post on July 5.
I believe that God imputed Jesus's righteouness to me at the moment of my salvation and it is because of His righteousness that God exchanged for my unrighteousness that I can spend eternity with Him. Nothing I do now or in the future including anything I do by His power secures my position in Him. Neither is there any sin I could commit that would threaten my position in Him. He placed me in His body at the moment of my salvation. He holds me, He keeps me and there is nothing I can do to make myself secure.
Now does this give me license to sin? Absolutely not! But if I do sin - and I do sin - I do NOT threaten my security, but I DO grieve Him and damage my fellowship with Him. And that is a miserable conditon to be in. As I have said before, I don't know how people cope without a close walk with Him. I know I cannot.
Ezekial wrote: Emphasis on "being saved". Is it a process or does it happen instantly? Being saved requires indwelliing of the Holy Spirit....The question is, how long does it take Him to move in.....and How long does it take to refine me?
I think this happens after much refining, and refining is accomplished through affliction.....His Grace."
Thanks Ez. Your comments on Holiness are right on. Holiness is sanctification and purification.
Stayedonthee, Please read these all in context but I hope the verses will help answer your question to me:
Romans 6
22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
2 Cor 7
1Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Ephesians 1
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
Eph 4
23and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Eph 5 (Right in the middle of the husband/wife teaching)
27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
Col 1
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
1 Thess 3
12and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you;
13so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
Hebrews 12 (Again)
9Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.
11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
1 Peter 1
14As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."
1 Peter 2
5..you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2
9But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION,A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
2 Peter 3
11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
I gotta put this one in....
Phil 2
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Study Hebrews
As I understand scripture and as Dr. Rogers used to say, "We are saved immediately from the penalty of sin, progressively from the power of sin, and ultimately from the presence of sin." My sanctification, which corelates to the progressive saving from the power of sin, does not affect my position in Him, only my fellowship with HIm.
The ministry just isn't what it used to be.
Bob Sorrell, businessman with International Harvester turned ordained minister to run the church.
Bob Sorrell handpicks Mark Dougharty, businessman turned ordained minister to run the church.
Now, David Coombs, businessman turned ordained minister runs the church.
Business degree trumps seminary degree. Anyone see the patern going on these days?
The pulpit is something that should not be taken lightly. It's no wonder we have men offering advice on how to run a church that don't really have a clue.
I guess situational ethics has found its way into the church via the business world.
Don't forget - Phil Weatherwax worked with Bob Sorrell at International Harvester
StayedOnThee said...
As I understand scripture and as Dr. Rogers used to say, "We are saved immediately from the penalty of sin, progressively from the power of sin, and ultimately from the presence of sin." My sanctification, which corelates to the progressive saving from the power of sin, does not affect my position in Him, only my fellowship with HIm.
Well said. That progressive growth in practical holiness also serves as a demonstration of the reality of our positional holiness in Christ. We must therefore ask ourselves what a persistent lack of growth in personal holiness indicates.
I think "fogmachine" has seen the light! You nailed it. "Church" has become big business.
Junkster I agree. As well as ask what the lack of conviction from His Spirit or lack of discipline from His hand indicates.
Off to bed to be ready for church tomorrow. Wish some church close would have Kirk Kilpatrick at least as interim.
stayedonthee,
Please take the time to listen to this teaching. I would rather not get into a discussion of this on the blog. So far, this itinerant preacher/missionary has proven he only teaches scripture in context so far. This message is on salvation/conversion. Check it all with scripture.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=628071515
Beware...it is shocking and you won't hear this kind of teaching in most churches.
Ezekial - your posts are always such excellent lessons and challenge me to dig deeper into the Word.
But, when you posted the phrase -
"PICK UP YOUR SWORD......LET GOD HANDLE THE GRACE.... "
I envisioned my new bumper sticker, t-shirt, coffee mug, etc.
Thank you my brother, you are always a blessing to me.
"PICK UP YOUR SWORD......LET GOD HANDLE THE GRACE.... "
Spurgeon!!!
Fog Machine: Your 9:36 post is thought-provoking. I do not understand why men called of God are not perfectly qualified to go about His work. Wouldn't God prepare and equip those He has called? Why are successful "businessmen" looked at first to fill church staff positions, before those called of God, with demonstrated character and scriptural qualifications, and seminary training?
sheeplessatbbc,
What I was saying is that for every 10 that leave they are only being replaced by 1. I believe there is more to it than not needing these ministers..."budget cuts". It is difficult to kick against the pricks...also, difficult to write checks that the bank won't cash.
Let me get back to Jeremiah 23.
The verse that I posted was certainly pertinent for today but the verse that really caught my attention in this chapter was probably something a bit unusual.
Jeremiah 23:13
And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
Baal worship is all throughout the Old Testament. I am convinced that references in the New Testament to Babylon's false religion refer to Baal Worship.
So just who is Baal?
My research will follow to answer that question.
"PICK UP YOUR SWORD......
LET GOD HANDLE THE GRACE.... "
Ezekiel: I love this. Pastors need to "get" this approach. God's word is a two-edged sword....that's what we need. Excellent.
stayedonthee said:
As I understand scripture and as Dr. Rogers used to say, "We are saved immediately from the penalty of sin, progressively from the power of sin, and ultimately from the presence of sin." My sanctification, which corelates to the progressive saving from the power of sin, does not affect my position in Him, only my fellowship with HIm.
oc says:
Which probably comes from Ephesians 2:8,
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and not that of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
verse 9: not as the a result of works, that no one should boast."
oc says:
The operative word in verse 8 is 'sesosmenoi' which is the nominitive, plural, masculine, participle,perfect, passive of sozo, if I recall. Translated in English as 'saved'. If I can remember from my Bible college days, that means that you were saved, you are being saved, you will be saved.
As I remember, it is Perfect security. Just what you would expect from a perfect Savior. He has been my Savior, He is my Savior, He will be my Savior. He is. All in all. Saved, once and for all, not because of me, but because of Him.
So sleep well, sisters and brothers in Christ, it's not about you. It's about Him.
Just sayin,
oc.
EZ,
don't know if you recieved my SOS email earlier...
but you came thru brother...thank you!
oc said...
it's not about you
Incipient Warrenism! Quick, somebody quote Spurgeon again!!
:)
Baal is the god of fertility, productivity and prosperity. Baal is the son of El (the most high god). Baal was slain and rose from the dead.
Does this sound familar?
Do we live in an age of false prophets that promote the worship of Baal?
Think about the churches of today. Fertility (this is not necessarily related to human reproduction, it also included crops, livestock and other possessions), Productivity (being the best that you can be), Prosperity (gaining all that god can provide and above what is needed).
Think about the god, Baal. The son of the most high god. Died and rose again. The god of fertility, productivity, prosperity.
This false god is subtly similar to the true God, but void of the truth of the true God.
Baal is an anti-christ, a replacement for Christ. An anti-christ that supplies wordly needs but still leaves a spiritual vacuum.
More important than the churches of today is who you personally worship. Make no mistake about it if you are wrong about Jesus, then nothing else will be right. If you are right about Jesus, then everything else will be in its proper place.
This would be a great time to examine who you are trusting. There are many that need to repent from their worship of Baal and turn to Jesus, the one and only true LORD and GOD.
Incipient Warrenism! Quick, somebody quote Spurgeon again!!
Sword and Trowel!
:o)
In the 40 verses of Jeremiah 23 the name LORD is present 41 times that I counted.
The name LORD when show in all capitals is the God that keeps his word. That it show up over and over and over again in this chapter is bringing emphasizing in this chapter that God keeps his word and this should cause those that read to head the warnings of the Word of God. God is the God that keeps his word and there are stern, severe consequences for those that pervert the truth of the one and only true God.
Stayedonthee said,
Junkster I agree. As well as ask what the lack of conviction from His Spirit or lack of discipline from His hand indicates.
I am beginning to look at these as His Grace......
I can't quote the scipture but I am starting to see a whole lot of affliction, refining, discepline and conviction in the word Grace......I don't look at it as the cure all for any sin I choose to commit, any mistake I make......
Thank you Stayed, Junkster and even our closet Warrenista....OC for your comments. :)
By the way, Stayed, I missed the reference in Lin's post, sorry to have cut in there...I did not mean to be rude . Sorry Lin!
NASS, I resent you the email you said you never got. I have a question that I do not want to post on the blog. Thanks
Toward the end of Jeremiah 23 the word "burden" appears multiple times. There are several words that might help in bringing a better understanding to these verses. It is more literally translated from what I understand as judgement or justice. It is the same word, "burden", that is found in the passage below.
Matthew 11:29-30
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
It is also found in Matthew 23 verse 4 and this as well should help clarify how the word "burden" conveys the closer meaning of justice or judgement.
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
memphis,
Just got your e-mail. Nothing new to report right now. I'm still trying to collect documentation.
Ok, I'm off the soap box for the moment but this chapter and study revealed the severity of what we are facing today. It is more than a difference of opinion or preference. We are facing great apostacy and churches that have not already turned from true worship are steadily being perverted by false religion.
Am I an alarmist? Yes. Quite honestly this is something to be alarmed about and the time to be alarmed is now.
Lin....can't see the sid628071515...is there another page I go to...or tell me the name of the sermon
solomon,
I'm not posting a comment which supposedly contains name of someone who hasn't chosen to reveal it himself.
And if you have something personal to say to "oc" he's got an e-mail address in his profile.
NBBCOF
gmommy...
Here is the link.
I am listening to this right now. Lin has done good to recommend this. This link should take you there.
NASS said:
And if you have something personal to say to "oc" he's got an e-mail address in his profile.
oc says:
Yep.
Just sayin'.
oc.
Thanks ima....and I sure appreciated one of your last post today....you said with grace what I could not say...with grace:)
Tim sad: "We are facing great apostasy and churches that have not already turned from true worship are steadily being perverted by false religion.
Am I an alarmist? Yes. Quite honestly this is something to be alarmed about and the time to be alarmed is now."
Friday I had a discussion with an old and dear friend of mine. She's a died in the wool Southern Baptists. I told her I felt that the SBC was on a dangerous road and needed to right itself. She told me that she couldn't get involved in any of that because she could not affect change. She could only have a say and make a difference in her local church. My heart broke. How many people throughout history have changed history because they chose to get involved and "sound the alarm"? Absolutely the alarm needs to be sounded in your local church, as I believe all of us are doing. However, to not sound the alarm at all, or refuse to see what's happening outside your neighborhood, is a dangerous attitude.
concernedSBCer said...
. "How many people throughout history have changed history because they chose to get involved and "sound the alarm"? Absolutely the alarm needs to be sounded in your local church, as I believe all of us are doing."
Lynn's Response:
Martin Luther sure didn't change history by sitting quiet on the sidelines.
Getting the Gospel Right, an interesting article by John MacArthur describing what people are being encouraged to say (and not say) in a training film produced by a "respected, conservative organization" that is being used internationally to teach Christians how to lead others to Christ.
Bellevue Decisions – These Numbers (of people who have made professions of faith) have recently been provided to the BBC Deacons:
-----------2005------2006-----2007
Jan-------174--------174------67
Feb-------107--------126------80
Mar-------118--------108------29
Apr---------86--------182------84
May--------84----------62------53
Jun--------94--------127-------37
YTD--------663-------779----362
(for Jan through June of each year)
facts,
One correction: Those numbers are for total decisions. That includes professions of faith, those joining by letter and statement, and "other" which can be just about anything else.
Nass, Thanks for the link to the article...here is one paragragh worth repeating:
"Furthermore, if a person is genuinely saved, his life will change for the better (2 Corinthians 5:17). He is saved "for good works" (Ephesians 2:10), and there is no way he can fail to bring forth at least some of the fruit that characterizes the redeemed (cf. Matthew 7:17). His desires are transformed; he begins to hate sin and love righteousness. He will not be sinless, but the pattern of his life will be decreasing sin and increasing righteousness."
There is a difference between 'works' for salvation and obedience which can look like works or legalism to the world.
New BBC Open Forum said...
facts,
One correction: Those numbers are for total decisions. That includes professions of faith, those joining by letter and statement, and "other" which can be just about anything else.
12:45 PM, July 08, 2007
-----
Facts says:
Good point and clarification. You are correct. These numbers are for Total Decisions, which include Professions of Faith, Statement, Transfer, and Other.
2 Timothy 2:15-16 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
***But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.***
This was part of the sermon today at my church. I thought, in light of what some are trying to do to this blog, it was quite timely.
Concerned- you have mail!
I have a couple of questions that are a little bit off topic...but here goes:
I was told by a family member that they received a mailout from the church yesterday concerning improvements to security in the children's wing, and also improvements in the decor.
If I understood correctly, you will only be able to access the children's wing through the inside of the church and it will have very limited access. The foyer in the children's wing will be walled in.
Also, there will be new murals and other improvements to the wing.
Question 1. If we are doing all these improvements to the church campus, hiring new staff, putting in more security, etc, where is the money coming from? I had thought that we were in a financial crunch. Are we borrowing on the equity of the church?
Question 2. I was told that there will be a meeting soon to explain the improvements to the children's wing. What have I missed? We are being told after the fact? Why don't we know the answer to question 1?
Comment: Does anyone other than me feel uncomfortable about out children and grandchildren being locked away and access to their wing being so limited? Uh..... What do we fear more, danger from the inside or the outside? Will new members coming into such a large church feel comfortable about this. I would not.
Amy: Back at you!
Churchmouse brought up issues relating to the changes and improvements to security and decor in the childrens area. In this day and age I can understand beefing up security, but didn't BBC just complete a major decor upgrade this year?
Another question - any comments as to the sermon on greed today?
churchmouse said
If I understood correctly, you will only be able to access the children's wing through the inside of the church and it will have very limited access. The foyer in the children's wing will be walled in.
Piglet says:
This sounds like a problem in the event of a fire....
The goats learned tonite that
1. Greed was a choice;
2. Greed is a satanic characteristic; and
3. Greed has severe consequences.
The consequences discussed were from the OT - you dropped dead.
It was mentioned that you get the penalty of sin.
Nothing in depth as to what those severe consequences were in the here and now.
Never called greed - sin.
Never called lust - sin.
Never called coveting - sin.
Never called testing the Holy Spirit - sin.
Am I to walk away from this message thinking that if I exhibit greed, it is my choice and that means I am exhibiting satanic characteristics and I will suffer the consequences, whatever they may be??
Pray for the goats and the poor young sheep that are not being fed.
Piglet,
I wondered about fires, also. I guess building codes would take care of that. ??? I really don't like the fact that you can't just surprise a class and peep in. I don't like that you could not quickly get to your child in an emergency.
When we joined Bellevue at the old church, my kids were 3rd grade and 8th grade. Both anxious about starting Bible study -- afraid we would have trouble meeting up in such a big church with such a crowd of people. I would never sent them into a place where parents were not free to roam. I am not trying to 'pick'. It doesn't sound like a good idea for a church.
Just my two cents... security for our children is a good thing. Access will be granted if you have the proper card/identification, etc., which parents, grandparents will. Just suppose some idiot came in and started shooting at random, and it could happen in our day, wouldn't you feel safer knowing that idiot could not get to the children? Don't see it as them being "locked away" but rather safely secured. Even our schools are going with security updates, i.e. video cameras, lockdown procedures etc., practicing just like we did tornado and fire drills in the old days. Fire extinguishers are installed not to scare people, but to be prepared in case of an emergency. Such is the same with one way access children wings. Perspective is the key. How you look at this determines your attitude. As a first time visitor I would say, Wow, these folks are on top of things and I know my children are safe. The average age for child abduction is between the ages of 4 and 9 and anyone is naive to belive "it won't happen in church." Especially one the size of Bellevue.
butterflycrown
So this is in accordance with the fire code?
Problem is, this wouldn't have protected any kids from PW when he was helping out in the preschool area......not keeping secrets like SG did would, though, and it's cheaper.
Just my 2 cents.
I hear what everyone is saying, and every post on the security measures thusfar have made good points. I would want easy access to my kids; I would want to be sure they could get out quickly and safely in case of fire (which I'm sure the fire marshall will verify); I would want to restrict access to only those that should be there. However, at the risk of sounding cynical, it seems to me the biggest dangers to BBC's children lately have come from within: PW and security grabbing a 15 year old.
Piglet: You've got 2 emails.
:)
Piglet,
Not to be rude, but if the biggest fear is from within, then one way access/security upgrades will make no difference in safety. If I was still concerned about mistreatment from within the walls of my church, I would find myself another church. My children's safety is of the upmost importance to me and if I did not trust those in leadership over them, I would search for a place I could. By the way, I am not a BBC member, so I really have no dog in this fight. I am just passionate about safe, solid, biblical children's ministry and I believe security measures are always a positive step. Seems to me most are still upset over PW and SG secrets than the actual upgrades being made.
Amy: You've got mail.
:)
butterflycrown
Oh, you are so right! We ARE gone.
And I wasn't offended. :)
FYI Folks,
I was on Love Worth Finding's website today and they have a podcast of Dr. Rogers sermons. You can get the podcast through iTunes.
Just thought I'd pass that along :)
Lily, the message was focused on the story from Acts 5:1 about Ananias and Sapphira(not in the O.T.) and used O.T. examples.
Since it was the Lord's supper, don't you feel the message was appropriate in examing one's heart in preparation? Couldn't we assume he thought he was speaking to an audience of believers that understood that greed is sin? And does it have to be called "sin" in order for a sinner to be convicted that he/she is guilty of it?
Am I to walk away from this message thinking that if I exhibit greed, it is my choice and that means I am exhibiting satanic characteristics and I will suffer the consequences, whatever they may be??
Uh...yes. And of course he allowed a way out(Hebrews 13:5 and Phil 4:11-13). I think a believer can understand that.
On the other hand, if a lost person was convicted of their greed and later in the message heard the pastor tell them that Jesus died for my sins, would the Holy Spirit help them make the connection to salvation? Or would they miss the boat because it wasn't correctly called "sin"?
I found nothing wrong with the sermon.
Disclaimer for some: I concede there was nothing wrong with the sermon EXCEPT it was delivered by a fence-jumping, pedophile-harboring, sheep-beating, sinful-church-supporting pastor.
bugsii said
Disclaimer for some: I concede there was nothing wrong with the sermon EXCEPT it was delivered by a fence-jumping, pedophile-harboring, sheep-beating, sinful-church-supporting pastor.
Piglet says:
Thanks for saving me the trouble. ;)
But I'm not sure about that last phrase "sinful-church-supporting-pastor"...would that be a sinful pastor who supports the church or a pastor who supports a sinful church?
In both cases I'd have to mull that one over to see if it really fits. :)
Piglet: Don't waste your time; I don't think it fits. Using rules of grammar in modifying words, what was written means this: "pastor who supports a sinful church." Maybe that's not what bugsii meant, but that's what was written. There are many BBC members who were not supported by their pastor.
bugsii said...
Lily, the message was focused on the story from Acts 5:1 about Ananias and Sapphira(not in the O.T.) and used O.T. examples.
Reply: Oh, my! STOP!!!
This was the sermon on greed? (OH, I should have tuned in.) Wasn't the story of Ananias and Sapphira about lying....not greed... LYING...to God.
The footnote on the bottom of the page of my keepsake Rogers era KJV Bible says: 3(5:3) "The sin of Ananias and Sapphira consisted in lying, not in keeping back their property. Observe especially v.4. "
To save time, v.4 reads: "While it remained, was it not thine own? And after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."
Oh, this just takes the cake.
churchmouse: EXACTLY!
Is SG trying to frighten folks into tithing?
Pastor Gaines said that we see something and lust after it instead of looking away, we think about it, we reach for it then we suffer the consequences. I don’t think he is intentionally omitting the word “sin”. I don't believe he is misusing the text to address greed. Were those verses not a good example of greed(sin) leading to sin(lying)? Acts 5:3 "...why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit...". They sold the land, Satan filled their hearts as they decided to withhold part of the price, and they laid the partial proceeds at the apostles’ feet. When did they lie to the Holy Spirit - when they decided or when they made the offering? Regardless, their punishment was used to bring a fear of God upon the church. I do not want the consequences of my sin to be so great that my punishment causes great fear to fall upon believers. So, shouldn't we be beware of any starting point that takes us down the path to sin and it’s consequences?
“The goats learned tonite that”….“Pray for the goats and the poor young sheep that are not being fed.” Lily, what about the others…you/they don’t need to be fed?
Churchmouse, how can you be so disgusted at a message you didn't even hear in context? And you're saying there just one lesson from this text - lying? . Couldn’t someone teach a lesson on hypocrisy from these verses as well? “Oh, this just takes the cake”.
Also, beware...WatchingHistory has been drumming Acts 5 for a while.
Bugsii said:
Churchmouse, how can you be so disgusted at a message you didn't even hear in context? And you're saying there just one lesson from this text - lying? . Couldn’t someone teach a lesson on hypocrisy from these verses as well? “Oh, this just takes the cake”.
Reply: Bugsii, you are right. I didn't listen to the message; I read your post. Yes, there are multiple applications from this Scripture. But, SG's message was on GREED. I don't believe using this scripture as a lesson on GREED and not LYING is a fully honest interpretation of The Word. It makes me angry because it comes across as a "bully tactic" to me. Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead, SG, but it wasn't for greed, it was for lying. Lying to God.
Why did they lie?
Because they were greedy?
Are any of us sure of the motive behind SG message?
Can anyone here say that the message preached on greed was not the exact message the HS led SG to preach?
It is obvious that the sermon was not received well by some. Let me encourage you to use that opportunity to dig into the word of God and see what He says to you.
Psalm 19:14 - Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.
Throughout scripture God shows us what kind of words we should use...
Words that are wise:
Proverbs 31:26 - She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
Words that encourage
Ephes. 4:29 - Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Words that praise God
Hebrews 13:15 - By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Words that are gentle
Proverbs 15:1 - A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
God's word does not instruct us to control what others say but to control what we say. May we be found in line with His word.
Many years ago I learned a lesson which still helps me each day. When life is not all we want it to be and we find ourselves in a deep hurt and or struggle, let's not ask what we need to learn from the situation, challenge or struggle but to seek what we can learn about God through the struggle.
God sees everything happening and He has a plan for each of us and that plan is good. He will help each of us, in His timing and His purpose for everything in our lives is for our growth. Finally His word never fails.
jon,
While much of what you say is good and we all need to hear it, you must remember that you are preaching to the choir. However, if the choir doesn't mind, I certainly don't.
But let me say this about the situation. My father was a very wise man and used an old adage to make a point several times during my youth. I will have to say it fits SG well: What you do speaks much louder that what you say.
A pastor's witness needs to reflect the substance of his sermons. In other words...he, too, needs to put into practice what he preaches.
Jon said: "Can anyone here say that the message preached on greed was not the exact message the HS led SG to preach?"
My only reply to this would be that the Holy Spirit would not lead a message that is contrary to what happened. This particular point was taken out of context to make a point. The Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity and therefore is TRUTH.
Did SG say that A&S died because of greed?
jon i. estes:
In regard to your
post on the value of using words correctly, may I kindly ask you to please not abbreviate the HOLY Spirit to a mere HS? This, IMO, is an affront to our HOLY God who deserves and demands our honor and reverential fear.
Changing the subject:
The standards for the "new" Bellevue continue to be lowered.
Yesterday, a choir member came into a Young Married BSF class to
recruit for the choir. He informed the class that "if you can sing in the shower you are qualified to sing in Bellevue's choir. Don't worry about learning the words to all the songs because they will be spelled out on the teleprompter.
It is just like karyoka except there is no bouncing ball.")-:
If I understand correctly, Ananias and Sapphira would have been better off not to have sold their land at all. (see v. 4) It would have been OK for them to just keep it. Would that not have been even more greedy?
The sin was that they made a show of giving -- they pretended to do one thing and actually did something else.
This sermon, standing on its own, is bad enough. But, it is part of a pattern of sermons that serve SG. I just can't think of anything good to say about that.
Col. 4:6 - Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
I like the portion of this passage dealing with salt. Our speech is to always be seasoned with salt. Salt is to have an effect. It can sting when rubbed in a wound. Salt also prevents corruption. A believer's speech should act as a purifying influence, rescuing conversations from the filth that so often engulfs it. Salt also gives flavor,and the believer's speech should add charm and wit to all conversation.
May we never be as...
Psalm 12:4 - ...With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
But always as...
Psalm 141:3 - Set a watch, O Lord, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips.
"...let's not ask what we need to learn from the situation, challenge or struggle but to seek what we can learn about God through the struggle."
Great idea. I have learned not to listen to false teachers who twist scripture and are NOT clear but vague.
Lin,
What you shared is great but it is about you and who not to listen to, not really about God and who He is.
What are you learning about God through all of this? His character? His holiness? His love for you and mankind?
Bugs, I guess my statement of those not being fed was overly broad “Pray for the goats and the poor young sheep that are not being fed.” To clarify, that was for those that attend BBC. As for me, once I realized I was not being fed at BBC, I left and went and found food.
"Salt also gives flavor,and the believer's speech should add charm and wit to all conversation."
I am looking for passages in the NT that are charming and witty...would this one quailify?
"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. "
Written by a not so charming and witty Paul to Timothy.
Charm is 'deceitful' for example:
Nahum 3
4All because of the many harlotries of the harlot,
The charming one, the mistress of sorceries,
Who sells nations by her harlotries
And families by her sorceries.
Or this one...
Psalm 58
4Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
Hebrew for Charm:
sheqer
sheh'-ker
an untruth; by implication a sham (often adverbially): - without a cause, deceit (-ful), false (-hood, -ly), feignedly, liar, + lie, lying, vain (thing), wrongfully.
"What are you learning about God through all of this? His character? His holiness? His love for you and mankind? "
His Character: Ezekial 36
(And 2 Thess 2)
His Holiness: Isaiah 6
His love for mankind: John 19:30
"What are you learning about God through all of this? His character? His holiness? His love for you and mankind?"
I would have to say that I have learned that the only truth is found in the WORD. Through the study of the WORD., I have found that He is not really the God that several of my pastors have told me about over the years....He is so much more and a whole lot more Holy than I have ever been told......That His grace is chock full of affliction and correction....what we call saving grace.
His love is not the emotional, feel good stuff us humans consider love....His love is full of the rod of correction and discipline....He applies both grace and love with any means required to get us to turn from the worship of idols, men and their lies....
And He humbles the proud......
Churchmouse,
Would that not have been even more greedy?
Yes but it would have defeated their purpose of looking good.
J. Vernon Mcghee calls them liars but also hints at hypocrisy and pride.
Matthew Henry...
Their sin was,
1.That they were ambitious of being thought eminent disciples, and of the first rank, when really they were not true disciples. 2.That they were covetous of the wealth of the world, and distrustful of God and his providence....Thus they thought to serve both God and mammon
3. That they thought to deceive the apostles, and make them believe they brought the whole purchase-money, when really it was but a part. They dissembled with God and his Spirit, with Christ and his church and ministers; and this was their sin.
There's no doubt they lied to the Holy Spirit but are those verses reserved solely for lessons on lying and nothing else?
How about Cain? His punishment was for killing Abel but would I be wrong to teach from those verses about anger when it led to the murder? Gen 4:6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7“If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”
This sermon, standing on its own, is bad enough. But, it is part of a pattern of sermons that serve SG. I just can't think of anything good to say about that.
You didn't even hear the sermon and you are throwing out truth because it came out of the mouth of a man you despise. All you know is it's on Ananias/Sapphira and greed and you are in an uproar.
I'm done. Carry on! If you wish to discuss further, email me.
32Yrs@BBC,
My mom got a letter from the president of the choir that talks about choir members inviting others to join the choir.
The Wednesday, July 18th practice will be used as a "choir practice designed for church members to experience being a part of the choir". They are planning for food from Chick-fil-a and a word from the pastor on the "importance of a choir", a choir "special" and an opportunity to join the choir.
The letter includes 10-15 invitation cards to hand out to whoever. What's so funny (or not really funny) is that my mom left the choir in March.
karen
Death of Ananias and Sapphira. 5:1-16. This incident shows us that the primitive church was not free from inernal problems. Luke does not try to gloss over the situation but relates the event with black colors.
1,2. Sapphira in the Aramaic tongue means beautiful. Like Barnabas, she and her husband sold a piece of property. Ananias, with his wife's knowledge, determined upon the plan of bringing only part of the money to the apostles, but PRETENDING THAT THEY WERE GIVING ALL. 3. We are not told how Peter recognized this deception; it was probably by divine illumination. Peter charged Ananias NOT WITH DECEIVING HIM BUT WITH ATTEMPTING TO DECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit is obviously a person, and verse 4 shows that the Holy Spirit is also God.
4.The program of sharing wealth in the early church was a purely a voluntary one,land remained in Ananias' possession, it was his alone to dispose of as he chose; and even after he had sold it, the money was his to do with as he pleased. Ananias' sin did not consist in his keepingback the money, but in his PRETENDING a complete consecration to God while deliberately keeping back part of the money. This was the sin of an INSINCERE CONSECRATION, for it meant LYING TO GOD.
Bugs said....
You didn't even hear the sermon and you are throwing out truth because it came out of the mouth of a man you despise. All you know is it's on Ananias/Sapphira and greed and you are in an uproar.
I'm done. Carry on! If you wish to discuss further, email me.
5:12 PM, July 09, 2007
Its really hard for anyone to take that sermon seriously considering the fact that what he's preaching...he isn't following. You can't tell the congregation one thing and there you are doing what your preaching against. Its that simple.
bugs wrote:
"You didn't even hear the sermon and you are throwing out truth because it came out of the mouth of a man you despise."
Oh, don't be so melodramatic. You certainly presume to know a lot! I've never heard anyone say they "despise" Steve Gaines. Not agreeing with some of the things he's done and stating that he's disqualified himself from being a pastor (as some have stated) is far from being the same as "despising" someone.
I did hear the sermon, and I didn't think it ever went anywhere. It certainly wasn't one of his better efforts.
"I'm done."
Good. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I'm reminded of what Mark Dougharty reportedly said about Steve Gaines when someone asked him if he thought SG is a "lover of money." MD was said to have sort of hemmed and hawed, in that awkward way he often does, looked up at the ceiling and scratched his chin, said "Hmmm... ," looked at the ceiling some more, then finally said slowly, "Well... , I uh... wouldn't say he exactly, uh... loves money... but he does like nice things."
NASS
Speaking of Mark Dougharty, what is he doing these days?
Just wondering.
greed-excessive desire for acquiring or having; avarice
Spurgeon on Preaching:
"...the mass of people do not lay hold on what is said but on how it is said. And if it is said smartly and privily and said forcedly that is enough for them, though it be a lie.
But if the truth be spoken, that they will not receive unless it be attended by some graces of oratory or elegance. Now the christian that has gone beyond babyhood does not care about how the man says it. It is the thing that is said that he cares about.
All he asks is 'Did he speak the truth?' ...he cares not for the trimming of the feast, nor for the exquisite workmanship of the dish. He only cares for that which is solid food for himself"
From the sermon: Search the Scriptures Jan. 17, 1858
Is this true today?
Bugsii said to Churchmouse:
You didn't even hear the sermon and you are throwing out truth because it came out of the mouth of a man you despise. All you know is it's on Ananias/Sapphira and greed and you are in an uproar.
5:12 PM, July 09, 2007
-----
Facts says:
I would like to weigh in on this statement. Unfortunately, when a person develops a bad habit of not telling the truth, and this pattern is repeated over and over, it becomes difficult for others to accept anything out of his mouth as the truth. Personally, my family and I can no longer listen to Steve Gaines because he has continued to distort the truth, he has shown no sincere compassion to the many sheep that are hurting, and he has over-spent any integrity that he had left.
Trust is not a right. It is earned over a period of time based on behavior, execution, and performance.
Karen, don't know if you got my e-mail but I will be praying for you re: your surgery this week and also your dad's on the 19th.
"I lay down and slept; I awaked; for the Lord sustained me" (Ps.3:5)
"I will both lie down in peace, and sleep; for Thou, Lord, only makes me dwell in safety" (Ps. 4:8)
Facts Only said: "Trust is not a right. It is earned over a period of time based on behavior, execution, and performance."
The addition to this is "Once it's lost, it is difficult to regain. Integrity is so very precious and fragile. Treat it with respect."
concernedSBCer said...
Jon said: "Can anyone here say that the message preached on greed was not the exact message the HS led SG to preach?"
My only reply to this would be that the Holy Spirit would not lead a message that is contrary to what happened. This particular point was taken out of context to make a point. The Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity and therefore is TRUTH.
Thanks, concernedsbcer, for saving me the trouble of saying that!
But Jon, I gotta ask ... are you kidding?? As a pastor and "above par" (your words) preacher, surely you know the difference between exegesis and eisegesis, and surely you can tell that an attempt to make this passage have anything to say about greed is an example of the latter and not the former.
There is nothing in the passage to indicate that greed was among the motives of A&S ... maybe it was, but to assume it was, and then to preaching an entire message based on that assumption, is poor Bible study and poor preaching. Several of the "untrained lay folks" in this forum know better.
Jon L. Estes said...
Did SG say that A&S died because of greed?
I don't know if he did, but it doesn't matter. He preached a message unrelated to the intent of the passage -- that is the problem. God's Word is sufficient in what it says ... He doesn't need anyone's "help" in making passages say things they don't.
bugsii said...
There's no doubt they lied to the Holy Spirit but are those verses reserved solely for lessons on lying and nothing else?
No ... there are several great truths in Acts 5 that deserve attention and focus ... which were not given because of the emphasis on an assumed motive for the actions of A&S. There are plenty of passages on greed, why not just use one of those?
Sorry, all, for the length of this post, but this is one of my personal hot buttons. They teach basic hermenuetics early on in Bible college and seminary ... the good schools do, anyway ... it is foundational to everything that comes after. We can never understand what a passage means, or how to appropriately apply it, until we understand what it meant (to the original author and to his audience). Why does this fundamental aspect of Bible study and teaching go unheeded so much these days? I can think of three reasons (but I'm sure there are more): (1) the constant emphasis in our culture on the subjective (how it makes me feel, what it says to me) versus the Biblical world-view of objective and unchanging truth (what God says and what He commands me to do); (2) the prideful desire of many preachers to be known as one who brings out "fresh truth" ("Wow, what a great preacher; I never would have thought of that passage in that way!"), and (3) plain old laziness (it is easier to make up a sermon based on the first thing that pops into your mind when reading a passage than it is to dig in and determine the original authorial intent).
People often develop their Bible study habits and basic approach to scripture based on how they see the Word handled in the pulpit. When a preacher or teacher doesn't follow sound principles of hermenuetics and homiletics, unfortunately, he is teaching his bad habits to his listeners.
Ezekiel stated:
I would have to say that I have learned that the only truth is found in the WORD. Through the study of the WORD., I have found that He is not really the God that several of my pastors have told me about over the years....He is so much more and a whole lot more Holy than I have ever been told
Response:
How can God be less or more Holy? Is not the term Holy a definitive of no degree? Your statement makes me believe that one man can be more holy than another, which is not possible. One men can be more pious than another but there is no such thing as a "holy men" except for the Son of Man.
Ezekiel stated:
That His grace is chock full of affliction and correction....what we call saving grace.
Response:
This statement, I do not understand. Are you saying that grace is garnered by affliction? Grace is by definition the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God. The affliction and correction you refer to is more correctly termed as discipline. The only one that was afflicted by grace was the grantor of grace such as the affliction God felt by the sacrifice of His only Son to make the reconciliation of God ane mankind possible.
Delivered by grace,
"This statement, I do not understand. Are you saying that grace is garnered by affliction? Grace is by definition the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God. The affliction and correction you refer to is more correctly termed as discipline. The only one that was afflicted by grace was the grantor of grace such as the affliction God felt by the sacrifice of His only Son to make the reconciliation of God ane mankind possible."
No. I am saying that there is a whole lot of affliction and discipline in the Grace that He extends to us....So I argue that we too are afflicted by His grace. His grace to refine and keep us...As Christ suffered, we too suffer.....By definition, the unmerited favor and love of God. How does He express that love.....
If you are Joel Olsteen, you will tell me that God expresses His love and favor by pouring out blessings on us after we send our money in....
I say that He expresses that love and unmerited favor by directing us to the narrow path, much like I show love to my children when they disobey....
30"If his sons forsake My law
And do not walk in My judgments,
31If they violate My statutes
And do not keep My commandments,
32Then I will punish their transgression with the rod
And their iniquity with stripes.
33"But I will not break off My lovingkindness from him,
Nor deal falsely in My faithfulness.
34"My covenant I will not violate,
Nor will I alter the utterance of My lips.
Romans 8:17
and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
Romans 8:16-18 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)
2 Corinthians 1:5
For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:4-6 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
Philippians 1:28-30 (in Context) Philippians 1 (Whole Chapter)
Philippians 3:8
More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
Philippians 3:7-9 (in Context) Philippians 3 (Whole Chapter)
Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.
Colossians 1:23-25 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Thessalonians 2:14
For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
1 Thessalonians 2:13-15 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Timothy 2:3
Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2 Timothy 2:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 Peter 1:11
seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
1 Peter 1:10-12 (in Context) 1 Peter 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Peter 2:21
[ Christ Is Our Example ] For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
1 Peter 2:20-22 (in Context) 1 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 Peter 4:1
[ Keep Fervent in Your Love ] Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
1 Peter 4:1-3 (in Context) 1 Peter 4 (Whole Chapter)
1 Peter 4:12
[ Share the Sufferings of Christ ] Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;
1 Peter 4:11-13 (in Context) 1 Peter 4 (Whole Chapter)
1 Peter 4:13
but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.
1 Peter 4:12-14 (in Context) 1 Peter 4 (Whole Chapter)
1 Peter 4:16
but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.
1 Peter 4:15-17 (in Context) 1 Peter 4 (Whole Chapter)
1 Peter 5:1
[ Serve God Willingly ] Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,
1 Peter 5:1-3 (in Context) 1 Peter 5 (Whole Chapter)
1 Peter 5:10
After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
As to Holiness...I was refering to how Holy He is. I agree with you. There should not be degrees of Holiness when it comes to God.
However, we are being taught today from the pulpit....many of them...that we as humans just make mistakes. We sin but it sounds better if we just call it a mistake....And we are taught that since Jesus was sacrificed on the cross that our mistakes are all covered by the blood and sin is just...well something we all do, but Jesus will look the other way.....
Rather than the God that is so Holy that Moses could not even look on anything but His back...and glowed for days. The God whose anger smokes at the mere thought of sin, much less the commission of it......
Without a reverential respect and fear for the Most High God, how do we even begin to understand exactly what Jesus really did for us on the cross?
Delivered by grace,
By the way.....I think your name says it all. :)
Ezekiel stated:
No. I am saying that there is a whole lot of affliction and discipline in the Grace that He extends to us....So I argue that we too are afflicted by His grace. His grace to refine and keep us...As Christ suffered, we too suffer.....By definition, the unmerited favor and love of God. How does He express that love.....
Response
If by the term "affliction" you mean "conviction" I would agree. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin, he does not afflict us. Affliction is a consequesce of sin, not necessarily a punishment. God set the wages of sin due to his perfect nature. There is no possible way for man to reach God because of sin. God provided a way for man to have everlasting fellowship with God by sacrificing his only Son. This was provided solely through the grace of God. That grace is ultimate and available only by acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Saviour. The affliction that believers is not part of that grace but is tied to the shackles of sin that even believers cannot break while of this life. All men are sinners. Just some of us have been redeemed from the penalties of sin.
Ezekiel stated:
As to Holiness...I was refering to how Holy He is. I agree with you. There should not be degrees of Holiness when it comes to God.
Response:
I agree with you that there is no degree to the Holiness of God. But there is no holiness outside of God. No man can be holy. No man can even approach holiness. Holiness is a trait solely of God.
"Affliction is a consequesce of sin, not necessarily a punishment."
Do you mean personal sin or 'fallen world' sin?
Just curious how you would view persecution? Discipline?
A consequence of personal sin?
I am curious how these verses line up with affliction being a consequence of sin. Am I missing something?
Luke 13
1Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4"Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
This one, too
2 Thessalonians 1
3We ought always to give thanks to God for you,brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater;
4therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.
5This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
So, here we see suffering, affliction and persecution not as a consequece for personal sin but so that they will be worthy of the Kingdom of God.
is this right? Am I missing something??/
Lin stated:
"Affliction is a consequesce of sin, not necessarily a punishment."
Do you mean personal sin or 'fallen world' sin?
Response
I see affliction as the consequences of sin. Notice from my 12:29 response that I stated that affliction is a consequence of sin not necessarily a punishment for sin. I think it can be a consequence of personal and original sin. Affliction can also be placed on an individual by God; or "allowed by God" as some Greek scholars translate the manuscripts; as in the case of Paul's affliction. Even in Paul's case, the affliction allowed by God is a consequence of sin.
Only one sinless man has ever suffered affliction. His affliction was also a consequence of sin, since he chose to bore the responsibilities of all mankind's sin.
Regardless, I fail to see the link between grace and affliction. How could something that is freely given by God contain a condition such as affliction. If affliction is the price you pay for grace, then grace is not free and, by definition, no longer grace.
Junkster
There is nothing in the passage to indicate that greed was among the motives of A&S ... maybe it was, but to assume it was, and then to preaching an entire message based on that assumption, is poor Bible study and poor preaching. Several of the "untrained lay folks" in this forum know better.
I disagree.
Acts 5:1-3 (KJV)
[1] But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, [2] And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. [3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
kept back = nosphizomai, (nos-fid'-zom-ahee); middle from nosphi (apart or clandestinely); to sequestrate for oneself, i.e. embezzle :- keep back, purloin.
Why do people embezzle? Why did A&S lie, or better, what did they lie about? They lied about that which they kept back, that which they embezzled.
Their greed led them to lie. Yes, the lie needs to be directly spoken of but what the lie was about is just as important because if this sin had not been committed, there would have been no lie.
I'm not asking you to agree with me, but doing an exegesis of this passage one would need to speak to the subject of the embezzlement, the greed.
Should it be the whole topic? That would depend on how the lord led me when I am to preach this passage, which could be different in how He might lead another. He knows what His people need to hear.
I admit you could be totally correct in your assessment of why SG preached what he did but for you to say that greed was not among the motives of A&S would be wrong. IMPO, of course.
Today's LWF Daily Devotion:
“For our God is a consuming fire.” Hebrews 12:29
DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT:
Someone has said, “If you are looking for a leader to follow, find someone with a limp.” The wounded in life are those who have learned difficult lessons through suffering. Do not resist the Shepherd’s rod of correction. Is the wounding painful? Indeed. Does it seem that you will not be able to bear it? Most certainly. Then, why would He subject you to such pain? Because you have a Father who loves you so much that He is willing to hurt you to heal you. What you need to focus on is not your pain, but your Savior. God didn’t save you to take you to heaven. That’s a fringe benefit. God saved you to make you holy — as He is holy.
Thought this was interesting considering the posts last night.
Jon wrote:
"I'm not asking you to agree with me, but doing an exegesis of this passage one would need to speak to the subject of the embezzlement, the greed."
Well, therein lies the problem with Steve Gaines' sermons. Look at any of his sermon outlines from here. "Exegesis" or "exegetic" is not a word which would ever come to mind. "Eisegesis" is his thing.
delivered by grace,
I notice that you debate without the support of scripture......Why is that?
A New and Living Way
19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Christ or Judgment
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY " And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,
33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.
34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.
35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Malachi 3:2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.
3"He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness.
See also Heb 12.
Brother....you give me the impression that you have fallen victim to the deception of satan and are believing a lie.....
Yor nor I are going to enter the kingdom of heaven without being Holy. To say that we can never attain that is to say that the Holy Spirit does not abide in you. If the Holy Spirit abides in you, you can't be anything other than Holy.
To deny that He has the power to cleanse you and purify you and make you Holy is to deny Him........
Follow Christ. Imitate Christ. Be like Christ. As you die to self and become more like the Spirit that dwells within you, The Spirit of Christ youi become Holy......We can't do that on our own. But we can if the Holy Spirit lives within us.
Stop being a slave to sin........He died to set you free.
"Regardless, I fail to see the link between grace and affliction. How could something that is freely given by God contain a condition such as affliction. If affliction is the price you pay for grace, then grace is not free and, by definition, no longer grace.
Don't look at affliction as the price you pay for grace. It is not and I never said that. Look at affliction as the tool or rod that He uses to cleanse and purify you....through the extension of His grace. If it were not for His grace....He would just let you die in your sin....
Embezzlement?...good grief..the passage states plainly the property was theirs to do with as they pleased...they didn't embezzle their own property..unless the definition of embezzlement has changed. They lied to the Holy Spirit as to how much they were giving from the sale of it.
New,
From what I see, I would characterize the sermon outlines shown as thematic messages rather than expository.
Note, I have not gone to each passage and tried to see if the passage at the top of the page supports the outline used. Cross references have been given and in the greed sermon a context passage was given except on the last point. This is style not sin.
Some good preachers preach thematically. It is not my preference to do so but it is not my place to condemn what Christ does not condemn (Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.) No where in scripture does it say a preacher must preach one way or the other (concerning style), it simply states... Preach the word.
Again, as I have shown, the passage in Acts 5 with A&S does deal with greed. Thus the word speaks to it, therefore, preach it as the Lord leads.
Reflecting on Losses
The church we love:
It seems the loss of our beloved BBC has come to a finality in the past few weeks, at least for some of us. After two years of struggle, I don’t believe this is getting any easier. God help us.
Worship in Truth:
Looking for a place to worship in Truth and in Spirit has brought my family to a new realization of changes in our circumstances. Things have not quite been “as they appeared” at BBC for some time. Now, we see that those changes have been happening on a much larger scale – in the SBC – in other denominations – worldwide. It is chilling.
Integrity in our leadership:
So many of those in leadership at BBC were actors, not the people they appeared to be. The integrity has been gone for some time. So, one would have to ask, “Where do you draw the line? Was Bellevue Baptist Church just another grand production? Were all the deacons just actors as the congregation played the mob? Was our offering our ticket to participate in a very successful play?”
This I believe: All those years we spent growing under the preaching of Adrian Rogers were a gift from God. They were also a sort of “boot camp” --for this. I am grateful. No one can take those years away. They are not lost.
My prayer for you (and for myself) this morning is that you will be aware of the Comforter in these dark days. A wise man once said, “Folks, there is no panic in heaven.”
" If affliction is the price you pay for grace, then grace is not free and, by definition, no longer grace. "
3:51 AM, July 10, 2007
Affliction is a price we pay for being and living as 'Christians'. Not a price we pay for 'salvation'. Those whom God loves He disciplines.
That still does not explain the verses I posted in my comment. It also does not take into consideration what Jesus said about taking up your Cross and denying self.
Grace does not mean we will not have afflictions, persecution, etc. As we are told in Luke 13, we must repent...because bad things happen.
Taking your definition of 'Grace', should we expect no afflictions in this world because we are Christians?
No one has to 'work' for Grace. That is reading into this something that was never there in Ez's original comment. But, to deny the afflictions and persecutions all through the NT for believers is to preach a different message.
We are talking about 2 doctrines here: Assurance (OSAS) and perseverence of the saints. They are not the same thing but we have combined them so they both lose their true meaning.
Again, what does this scripture say to you?
2 Thessalonians 1
3We ought always to give thanks to God for you,brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater;
4therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.
5This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
Grace is given freely but you must be prepared to persevere as a believer who was given 'FREE GRACE' through affliction and persecution and He tells us why in the verses above. (v. 5)
To teach anything else is akin to the seeker false doctrine of Your Best Life Now or that God has a 'wonderful' plan for your life. The true Christian knows that your 'best life now' may include burning at the stake or prison as some of our brothers and sisters know very well, right now, in many parts of the world.
Read Hebrews...the Lord disciplines those He loves...His own...if one doesn't experience the discipline of the Lord, His word says he's an illegitimate child...look at Job...did he not experience affliction?...and the Lord declared him to be a righteous man. Grace is free...God has ownership over all things...he disciplines as He deems fitting.
aog,
You will have to take the embezzlement up with God because that is the word used in the passage. I prefer not to "good grief" over His words.
What the passage also speaks to is that they "kept back", referring not to what was theirs but to what they were to give, as they stated they were giving. I can't get away from the "kept back" (embezzled) and remain honest with the passage.
"Why do people embezzle? Why did A&S lie, or better, what did they lie about? They lied about that which they kept back, that which they embezzled.
Their greed led them to lie. Yes, the lie needs to be directly spoken of but what the lie was about is just as important because if this sin had not been committed, there would have been no lie."
Reply:
Keep going on your exegesis by including verse 4. Peter explains it:
4"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
This was never about what they did or did not give. As Peter said to them..it was yours and under YOUR control. Then he tells the REAL reason for their punishment: Lying to God. It is as clear as day in the scripture account.
The point of all of this is that A&S wanted everyone in the early church to believe they gave it all when in fact, they did not HAVE to give anything.
As Junk said, there are lots of scripture relating to greed that you do not have to read into something that is not there. Verse 4 explains it.
The point of all of this is that A&S wanted everyone in the early church to believe they gave it all when in fact, they did not HAVE to give anything.
But when they chose to give anything and "kept back" a portion, they embezzled. This is the greek, not my interpretation of the words used.
No one is saying they had to give anything but they gave only a portion, they "kept back" as scripture said.
How do you explain "keep back"?
As Junk said, there are lots of scripture relating to greed that you do not have to read into something that is not there. Verse 4 explains it.
Reply: Amen to that. What this story incorporates is the "fear factor". That was the root of my anguish.
The point of all of this is that A&S wanted everyone in the early church to believe they gave it all when in fact, they did not HAVE to give anything.
Are you sure this is the point to all of this?
I think it is a greater stretch to have scripture say they "kept back" what they did in order to be seen as some who gave it all.
I have reread this passage, maybe I am missing your position being stated. Can you point me directly to where they kept back what they did but the motive was to have the church believe they gave it all?
Jon wrote:
"Some good preachers preach thematically. It is not my preference to do so but it is not my place to condemn what Christ does not condemn (Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.) No where in scripture does it say a preacher must preach one way or the other (concerning style), it simply states... Preach the word."
Well, you're the one who used the word "exegesis." I was merely pointing out that's not Steve Gaines' style. Now you're talking about "thematic" preaching which isn't the same as the "eisegetic" style I mentioned. This is a good definition and example of eisegesis. Is it a sin? To me, when it becomes self-serving sheep-beating (which Sunday night's sermon wasn't particularly, IMO), yes, it is.
It seems, as with the truth around BBC, that with you the subject of any discussion is a moving target. What exactly again is your purpose for hanging out here? It seems you only want to deflect and divert attention away from issues that are uncomfortable to many preachers today. Or maybe you like to argue just for the sake of arguing. By drawing people into debating with you, perhaps you think you can make us look "ungraceful" (that seems to be an ongoing theme with you) and "in the flesh" which you must think somehow makes you look noble. Well, it doesn't. People see through your tactics, Mr. Estes.
jon,
The "good grief" has nothing to do with God's word, and I think you know that...you remind me of the blind man in a dark room, looking for a black cat, and he finds it. You read something into everything that's not even there.
As to what i originally referred to: I think it's reasonable to take from the passage that the money itself was not the issue...does God have need of anything?...another point...nowhere in the passage does it state that selling one's property and giving all the proceeds to the apostles was a requirement...they simply were doing it...as God's grace was abundant upon them. What they gave they gave grudgingly, as apparent by their keeping back a portion...but God loves a cheerful giver...Peter's statement to them is telling...he reminds them that before it was sold the property was theirs...after it was sold, it was in their control. They presented themselves and their offering falsely...lying not to men but to the Holy Spirit...the passage is not clear as to what their prime motive was (greed, or whether they wanted to present themselves as something they were not), but Peter's piercing statement that they lied to God is the crux.
jon, I want to remind you you're not talking to a moron...your remark about the "good grief" and "take it up with God" tells me a lot.
NASS,
Pastor Jon seems to forget that we studied under one of the greatest of the Lord's servants, Dr Adrian Rogers. Most of his flock are well versed and well educated in God's Word (spelled with a capital W. Steve Gaines has a lot of education, but he has no clue how to apply or teach it which may come from a lack of spiritual wisdom (head knowledge in lieu of heart knowledge).
just sayin...
New,
Actually, Junkster first used exegesis in this thread.
I know what Eisegesis is. But from the sermon outlines one can not make that assertion without assuming what they do not know. My reference to style was in reflection to looking at the sermon outlines, referred.
I have stated my purpose, there is no need to second guess that. I know most who post here are hurting deeply, I pray for them daily. I am not trying to divert anything but ask honest questions and share honest facts and opinions. Is it wrong to hope that everyone here who is hurting will see that there
I have not given SG a free pass on anything. I have not directly accused him of anything either. I did state
"I admit you could be totally correct in your assessment of why SG preached what he did but for you to say that greed was not among the motives of A&S would be wrong. IMPO, of course."
Is this blog for only those who agree on everything, or most everything, concerning SG? Is there room for a mediator who has no dogs in the hunt to hopefully bring an opportunity to think positively instead of negatively.
If SG is all you say he is, I hope he leaves and does something else. If any of what is said is untrue, it does not good to dance on falsehoods.
BBC has been filled with many different people with different gifts, talents and abilities. Many had different thoughts and ideas. Words to challenge and encourage and warn. All are needed. This blog should be no different if we are the church.
I wonder what AR would say about a blog such as this? I know at the convention this year, when some of the hot topics came up, my wife stated, "I wish Dr. Rogers were here to address this."
I wish he were here to address this.
I purchased the history CD's of Dr. Rogers at the convention, listening to them as time permits. If anything comes up, I'll let you know.
aog,
You still have not dealt with the term the bible uses...
kept back = nosphizomai, (nos-fid'-zom-ahee); middle from nosphi (apart or clandestinely); to sequestrate for oneself, i.e. embezzle :- keep back, purloin.
It was not I who used the term with the meaning it gives. It was God Himself.
I do not think you are a moron but I do want you to be honest with the words of scripture and let them say what they mean.
To take the position
What they gave they gave grudgingly, as apparent by their keeping back a portion
Can you direct me to the place in the passage which supports this?
For me, the greek supports the issue of greed. Nothing I find supports they gave begrudgingly.
churchmouse said
This I believe: All those years we spent growing under the preaching of Adrian Rogers were a gift from God. They were also a sort of “boot camp” --for this. I am grateful. No one can take those years away. They are not lost.
Piglet says:
Oh dear little churchmouse! Your words have put a lump in my throat. The many years our family sat under this gifted man of God were priceless. What a privilege but also - what a responsibility.
word verification: yyuask
jon said
I wonder what AR would say about a blog such as this? I know at the convention this year, when some of the hot topics came up, my wife stated, "I wish Dr. Rogers were here to address this."
Piglet says:
I would rather he were here to address the REASONS for this blog. I won't take up space to list all of those.
As for the blog itself - we are all responsible, individually, for our words. Speaking the truth in love is permissable in any forum. And if the matter were a private one, of course it should be handled privately. However, these issues affect us all and this is our only forum for discussion, unfortunately.
We have left BBC (much like a wife who has separated from an abusive husband) but have not moved our membership yet. Repentance and reconciliation are what we would like to see our hope is fading.
mom4,
Dr. Rogers was one of my heroes. There will never be an expositor like him during my life time. I have most of his books and have taken every opportunity I had, when he was with us, to hear him.
I know what his flock received on a weekly basis and they are better for it.
I do wonder if a blog such as this would be supported by him. I wish he were here to give his take on things.
What have we learned from him over the years? Did he ever teach us how to deal with false teachers? Did he ever demonstrate how to deal with those in error?
I think he taught us much as he was used of God to bring light to the convention concerning the liberalism among us, especially in our schools.
I do believe he would proclaim the truth, denounce the myths and lies, stand beside the opposition without fear, trembling or anonymity.
He trusted the Lord enough to let the opposition know who he was because he belonged to the One he feared. He had no fear of men, their accusations, threats or positions.
These things he did teach us.
Piglet,
I hope there can be reconciliation for you, your family and all the others who are hurting.
Thank you for your words. I agree speak what you must speak in love. I hope all will heed your wisdom on this.
Jon wrote:
"I do wonder if a blog such as this would be supported by him."
If he were still with us there would likely be no need for this blog.
jon,
I still don't see that the embezzling or purloining is the crux of the issue. "at his words ("you have not lied to men but to God") he fell down and gave up the ghost." I ask you to deal with whether or not selling property and giving all the proceeds was a command. The passage doesn't state that it was...God's grace was abundant among them and that is what they were doing. What were they lying about?...did they make a vow and renege?...are church members embezzling now if they don't sell all their property and give it all to the local body?..if it were a command I would think it would apply to all believers of all generations. I still say Peter's remarks to them about their property and his words to them before they fell dead tells us what the crux of the issue is. They lied to God. The fact that they did what they did secretly, tells me they set out to deceive, but as Peter reminds them, you can't fool God.
32 yrs and everyone else who sent email:
Thanks for your kind words of encouragement and support. My surgery is at 10:30 tomorrow and I should be back home on Thursday. Play nice while I'm gone. :)
I have to share this though - Carol P. wrote me an email saying that her mom had the same surgery and then had 8 kids! I'm just hoping for 1! But it made Randy laugh out loud, so thanks Carol!
Love ya! Karen
"When Ananias (greedy, covetous, worldly, secular, seeking to keep things for Himself) acted out this lie, the Holy Spirit withdrew His support and Ananias fell down dead."
From a message entitled "Idolatry in the church" by W. A. Criswell.
Criswell also makes the following comment: In chapter 5 we miss the contrast the Holy Spirit is making because of the superimposed chapter divisions. Actually the story of chapter 4, beginning at verse 32, belongs to chapter 5. Describing the generosity of the church.
Acts 4:32 neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Interesting.
Jon L. Estes said...
I disagree.
That's ok -- it is your right to be wrong. :)
kept back = nosphizomai, (nos-fid'-zom-ahee); middle from nosphi (apart or clandestinely); to sequestrate for oneself, i.e. embezzle :- keep back, purloin.
You have cited a lexical entry, which, as is normal for lexicons and dictionaries, gives multiple possible translations or meanings for a word. I'm sure you know that not every potential meaning of a word is conveyed by every use of that word. This is no different in Greek than in English. For example, the word "oversight" could mean watching over something, or it could mean an omission. Context determines which meaning is correct. Just because nosphizomai can be translated "embezzle" does not mean that every time the word occurs it carries that meaning. In this case, the context is clear that it does not mean that because by definition a person cannot embezzle their own money. In this case the word means, as it is translated, simply "kept back" (for themselves).
By the way, even if one were to say that A&S embezzled (which I do not concede), that still does not speak to the motive for the act. Is all embezzlement due to greed? Could it not possibly instead be due to a desire for revenge, power, self aggrandizement, or a host of other secret motivations? One still could not logically conclude that greed played a part in their actions.
Again, as I have shown, the passage in Acts 5 with A&S does deal with greed. Thus the word speaks to it, therefore, preach it as the Lord leads.
You have not shown any such thing; you have merely asserted it, and incorrectly so. What you have shown is that your use of language and logic are suspect. There is eisegesis, and then there is poor exegesis. The end result of either is the same ... a misunderstanding of the point of the text.
Perhaps A&S's motives included greed (although that makes little sense, for truly greedy people don't give away most of their property and hold back just a little for themselves) – but the fact is, from the text, we do not know why they held it back. We do however, know from the text that they lied and that God judged them severely for it. There is no need to preach a sermon based on speculation when there are many truths to be gleaned from the passage.
Jon: Can you please explain this statement? I don't want to take it wrong. Thanks.
You said: "I do believe he would proclaim the truth, denounce the myths and lies, stand beside the opposition without fear, trembling or anonymity."
Piglet said...
word verification: yyuask
Indeed, the question of the ages ...
A Living Sacrifice
Romans 12:1I appeal to you therefore, brothers,[a] by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual
worship.
Why? Because....
Rev 21:5And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
See also Romans 7:14-8:30
By His grace and through refinement by fire,(Malachi 3) and cleansing of the word (Eph 5)we are conformed to His image (Romans 8:29)(sanctified,(glorified) and enter the kingdom of heaven......
The Gospel that we have been dumbed down to is that all we have to do is believe and get baptised.....How we live is covered by the blood, leaving no place for the Holy Spirit to work within us to cleanse and sanctify us, wash or refine us. Continue to live the life of idolaters and liars......It is not so
Sure adds a lot of weight to "repent, for thekingdom is at hand"......
pastor jon,
There would not be a blog here if Adrian Rogers were still alive, and the church he and his family sacrificed to help build would not be in a downward spiral into apostacy. Dr Rogers was willing to make a stand for truth. That is the purpose of this blog since it's inception. You do not have a dog in this fight so to speak, your fight should be with the SBC. They are the ones that will lead others astray into apostate liberalism now that Dr Rogers is not around to make a stand for God's Truth.
delivered by grace,
Heb 12:4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned
Off topic, I know, but if you think you're having a bad day, consider this poor guy:
Link.
concernedSBCer said...
Jon: Can you please explain this statement? I don't want to take it wrong. Thanks.
You said: "I do believe he would proclaim the truth, denounce the myths and lies, stand beside the opposition without fear, trembling or anonymity."
11:18 AM, July 10, 2007
I think you are probably referring to the last part of the sentence. I wrote that as I was thinking of Dr.Rogers on the platform of the convention beside Cecil Sherman, when CS asked for Dr. Rogers to take three of the seminaries and let the moderates have three of the seminaries. To Which Dr. Rogers said; No, we will not stop until we have all six.
He was not ashamed of truth or his name to be put with it.
That was the point I was making.
Estes, I feel compelled to jump in here and address your ignorance. You have forgotten a most important hermeneutical principle of context. No meaning of a word can be assumed outside of the context in which it has been delivered. Yes, the Greek word can mean embezzle, but in this context it does not mean such. It simply means to "hold back". No intent or ulterior motive can be ascribed to this without the context supplying such.
Peter only declares that both LIED to the Holy Spirit and decieved the church. The implication is that they wanted both to recieve adulation and praise from the believers and keep back for themselves part of the money they gained from the sale of property. The intent was to gain great praise by implying that they made a great sacrifice, which they did not do. They wanted the praise of men more than they wanted fellowship with The Father.
You cannot translate the Greek directly from your Lidell $ Scott lexicon without seeking to understand the context in which the words are delivered. Also, it is important to understand and remember that the first translation should be from the simplest understanding and if that does not fit the context then go on to a more complex reading.
Churchmouse said, "those changes have been happening on a much larger scale – in the SBC – in other denominations – worldwide. It is chilling."
Comment: It is, indeed, chilling, Churchmouse! Chilling to the bone! It is universal. Ecumenical! One world rule! The last days. Biblical! Pray that people will turn from desiring their ears to be tickled to wanting their ears to hear Truth...the Word of God!
1Timothy:4:1-2, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron."
Other Important things...
Tonight we will be visiting two young men who recently found Christ as Savior and Lord. We will be discussing baptism with them We will also be visiting a young girl who is asking questions and wanting to know more. We will be presenting the plan of salvation to her, praying she understands and receives His gracious gift.
A few other visits will be made with the intent to share the gospel and be used of God in a salvific manner, all for His glory.
Lost people everywhere, the fields are white unto harvest... Who will go for Jesus?
I will with all my warts and problems, I will go and tell.
Seeing lost people saved makes a lot of the ugliness in life seem more reachable.
Were they killed for the sin of greed or the sin of lying?
Sort of odd when you think that they were not killed when they held back....but they were killed after they lied.....one would think that as fast as the judgement was rendered and the punishment meeted out that both were in response to the sin committed....if so, why were they not killed when they held back...
Could it be that the holding back was not a sin but lying to the Holy Spirit was?
Context, as Dr. Criswell so vividly points out goes back to chapter 4:32.
Acts 4:32 (KJV)
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Please note this is a statement, where in verse 5 it is a question.
Could the answer to the questions asked of Ananias, be "No."
Acts 5:4 (KJV)
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Question 1 - No.
Question 2 - No.
Question 3 - Because I thought it was mine.
Simple Christianity teaches in context throughout the whole bible that we own nothing but are stewards of everything.
Context of the surrounding verses must agree with context of the chapter which must agree with context of the book which must agree with the context of all 66 books.
Tell me. Do you own your home? Is it yours to do with as you wish?
A Christian ought to answer honestly, "no" to each of these questions.
Jon,
Just as an aside to fan my curiosity I suppose...a question for you. Give it ample thought first.
These people...the ones unwanted at BBC, the ones who have been asked to leave, the ones who have been literally run off-you know the ones I make reference to. Tell me how they are supposed to feel? Tell me how they are supposed to respond to the treatment they have received? And about the love...can they genuinely love those who have cast them out of their church? Tell me...give me, and them, the answers. Your opinion as a church member and/or a pastor/minister. Biblically speaking...the answer to this.
I have reread this passage, maybe I am missing your position being stated. Can you point me directly to where they kept back what they did but the motive was to have the church believe they gave it all?
9:54 AM, July 10, 2007
I could but it is there for all to see so why type it over and over in a comment? Your eyes do not want to see.
They lied. Why lie about it? Once again, we cannot leave out verse 4.
"Is there room for a mediator who has no dogs in the hunt to hopefully bring an opportunity to think positively instead of negatively."
First of all, I am not convinced you don't have a dog in the hunt. Either that or you don't have enough to do as a pastor. We really do not need a mediator, Mr. Estes. I am somewhat amazed you think of yourself as one. Charming as it sounds. (Tongue in cheek)
.."bring an opportunity to think positively instead of negatively"
Aha! Seeker code words. (this includes mistakes instead of 'sins')
See, if anyone mentions sin, wrath, repentence, sanctification, etc., or any derivative thereof...(which is am important part of the gospel or there is NO gospel..NO HOPE)...they are 'negative' and 'lacking grace'and 'forgiveness..and are 'bitter'.
But we have a challenge! 53% of the NT alone is negative in character and by design.
But what is really confusing about the seeker code words is that 'they' get to decide what is positive and what is negative. We are negative...THEY are positive. And, If a truth is negative they get to call it 'lacking grace'.
These seeker code words do fill the pews, though. Everyone is looking for their 'Best Life Now', and the Wonderful Plan for their life.
Mr. Estes...the prospect of going to hell is VERY negative. Matthew 7 tells us that many professing Christians will not be recognized by our Savior. The road is narrow (negative) and there are false teachers out there (negative) but there is hope (positive) if we study the Word (positive) and repent (negative) of our sin (negative) and follow Christ we can be saved (positive) but we many STILL be burned at the stake for it (negative).
"I wonder what AR would say about a blog such as this? I know at the convention this year, when some of the hot topics came up, my wife stated, "I wish Dr. Rogers were here to address this."
With all respect, I would much rather see what the Word says. We are all putting Dr. Rogers in an impossible position and he is NOT here to advise or defend anything.
Jon L. Estes said...
Could the answer to the questions asked of Ananias, be "No."
Jon, Jon ... you just enjoying arguing, don't you? :) Or maybe debating is the proper term ... I don't think you're being intentionally argumentative (at least I hope not).
Excuse my poor Greek grammar here, but that is just so lame! The point of Acts 4:32 is that those early believers shared everything according to need, to the point that personal property rights were not a concern. It is not saying that no one actually owned anything -- in fact it asserts that they did own things when it refers to them as "possessions"; they just did not hold on to them in the face of need.
Acts 5:4 (KJV)
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Question 1 - No.
Question 2 - No.
Question 3 - Because I thought it was mine.
Since you brought up Greek earlier, I recommend you go back and check the form of those first two questions I believe you will find that they indicate the expectation of a positive response, i.e., "Wasn't it your own?" "Yes, it was my own."
Simple Christianity teaches in context throughout the whole bible that we own nothing but are stewards of everything.
There's another assertion based on assumption without supporting argument or evidence. The Bible is quite clear in asserting and affirming personal property ownership and rights. Sure, in the larger, metaphysical sense, everything belongs to God and we are just taking care of it ... but that is a separate matter from temporal ownership. You're comparing pineapples and bananas.
Context of the surrounding verses must agree with context of the chapter which must agree with context of the book which must agree with the context of all 66 books.
So true. So "pull out" what the text means, don't push unintendeded meaning into it!
Tell me. Do you own your home? Is it yours to do with as you wish?
A Christian ought to answer honestly, "no" to each of these questions.
Yes, I own my home (well, the bank owns most of it for the time being), and yes, I can do with is as I wish, within the confines of God's will, just as I can with every other aspect of my life. Those are my honest answers as a Christian.
Jon, in the context of the "book", why did God give the tribes and the families in those tribes land that they could not sell?
I just happened to catch a sermon on the radio Sunday on just this topic.
In fact, personal property was a gift from God....
You seem to be making the case that christians cannot own property, that everything belongs to
everyone else...that is socialistic communism and this verse has been used time and again to justify it. In error.
As a pastor, you convince me again that you will say anything to make sure money flows to the church, lay guilt trips on people and tell them that what they have is not theirs. Just what did Joshua "posess" when they come out of the wilderness?
I got new for you friend, my house is mine till God reclaims it. My money is mine till God reclaims it......He may do that tommorrow or take it out in instalments but either way you don't have any say in the matter. When you get all the Jews convinced that they did not own their land, let me know.
Just as it says in the parable of the 10 talents....it is mine till the master shows up asking for it back...He did not tell me what to do with it...I could bury it or invest it......
You may want to try someone other than Criswell. I still cannot get over that he had 'busts' made of himself for people to buy. :o(
Here is Acts 4 in context to what you were talking about:
31And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.
32And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.
33And (with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.
34For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales
35and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.
36Now Joseph, a Levite of Cyprian birth, who was also called Barnabas by the apostles (which translated means Son of Encouragement),
37and who owned a tract of land, sold it and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.
How this changes Acts 5:4 is beyond me.
Estes:
Sir you are a charlatan. You distort the word of God just to win the argument and appear more devoted than the rest of us. What I see in you is a false humility of which you may not even be aware. I suggest you spend a lot of time away from the blog in deep spiritual introspection. If you preach-down to your people as you have here, then you have a very shallow flock.
jon,
I am wondering what your purpose is on this particular blog when you profess to be a pastor of your own church.
I cannot help but reflect on II Thess. 3:11-12 below
11 For we hear that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies. 12 Now those who are such we command and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ that they work in quietness and eat their own bread.
Please don't take offense to this, it is my opinion of your presence here. Like I said before, (as Dr Rogers would say) you don't have a dog in this particular hunt. You are here to admonish those fellow brethren who are already hurting and wounded when you should be minding your own flock. If you are so concerned, perhaps you could begin by admonishing your fellow pastor, Steve Gaines. He is the one who is denying Matthew 18, lying from the pulpit, breaking the laws of man and God and shutting out the Lord's family in pursuit of his own agenda. Perhaps you can take your quest to his door..
Jon: Actually, I wanted clarification on this part: "stand beside the opposition without fear"
I fully know Dr. Rogers would have stood for Truth no matter what. The Truth of this blog is a call to repentance and accountabilty by the leadership of BBC. We have in leadership at BBC a man who has proven himself over and over again, by his words and his deeds, to be unfit for the pulpit. The fact that we have learned these type of incidents are happening all over has been eye opening. The call you refer to "getting all 6 of the seminaries" is telling as it shows the leanings were there many years ago. We have to stand for Truth; truth in context and in definition of all scripture and presentation of said scripture.
While I have respect for the late Dr. Criswell, he is not God and did not pen the scriptures. I'm sure if I wanted to look hard enough I could find a commentary that would support my own view, but that is not what is really the point here. "What do the scriptures say?" is the question here...I, Lin, and others have pointed out the entire context of the passage, yet you insist, jon, on referring to Criswell's thoughts to support your view. The crux of the A & S issue is plain without a knowledge of Greek, since all the major translations render the passage pretty much the same without significantly changing the meaning of it in any slight differences each may have. It appears you value being declared "right" over the passage more than what the passage has to say to us.
Lin said...
"You may want to try someone other than Criswell. I still cannot get over that he had 'busts' made of himself for people to buy. :o("
Comment: OUCH!!! Didn't know that, but am not really surprised. This is reminiscent of Saddam Hussein :)...
Can anybody spell...idolatry? Care to make a list?
Hey Jon...
You have too much time on your hands imo...
Question 1: wrong.
Question 2: wrong.
Question 3: wrong.
They were not communists... Some still owned property though most were poor. Early churches were meeting in houses owned by one of the believers, Acts 2:46, Acts 12:12... 1 Cor. 11:22.* This was about their view of material things, not some requirement for all christians to sell all of their earthly possessions.
Original question: wrong.
This whole discussion is off track. The reason that the sermon on "greed" was of interest on this board was because BBC has a pastor who may have a pay package (total, that is of all items) in the range of 500,000 dollars...
While at the same time controlling his own part of the budget (without any known oversight) of around 2 million dollars...
While blocking any attempt of members of the congregation to know how much is being received by him and any other member of his family... and
While there is some indication that he was receiving money for outside speaking engagements while the church footed the bill for multiple Wednesday evenings for pulpit supply... and
While there is some indication that there was a history of overcharging members of his congregations for tickets to the holy land and pocketing the overage... and
While there are questions about book deals and media developments in the works... and
While there are serious questions still hanging in the air about co-mingling of funds...
...ad infinitum...
This appears to some to be the case of one who is so blinded by their own greed that they are preaching to their congregation a message that seems to be more fitting in the context of preaching into a mirror.
jmo... but I believe this opinion is shared by many... and all it takes is complete transparency to dispel all of these questions...
All it would take would be to follow the laws that govern disclosure to the membership... jmo
Mom4 said
If you are so concerned, perhaps you could begin by admonishing your fellow pastor, Steve Gaines. He is the one who is denying Matthew 18, lying from the pulpit, breaking the laws of man and God and shutting out the Lord's family in pursuit of his own agenda. Perhaps you can take your quest to his door..
Piglet says:
Oh, thank you for posting this, Mom4. Did you read my illustration of the pastor rebuking the angry person with the car parked on his foot while ignoring the careless driver?
Now, how ridiculous would that look? Yet, Jon has shown up here for days doing just that. :/
Jon said,
"Simple Christianity teaches in context throughout the whole bible that we own nothing but are stewards of everything.
Context of the surrounding verses must agree with context of the chapter which must agree with context of the book which must agree with the context of all 66 books.
Tell me. Do you own your home? Is it yours to do with as you wish?
A Christian ought to answer honestly, "no" to each of these questions."
Jon, you should spend a little more time in the WORD...Before you try to tell us all that it is wrong to say that we own property, take a look at the story of Ruth
Ruth 3:3And she went, and came, and gleaned in the field after the reapers: and her hap was to light on a part of the field belonging unto Boaz, who was of the kindred of Elimelech.
Or tell Job that he did not loose all he had.
You can find that in Job 1.
Or tell Naboth that he did not own his vinyard.
1 Kings chapter 21.
Jon....do you know the TRUTH? If so, why do you come here spouting lies? You and those like you do more to harm the Kingdom of Christ that we on this blog ever could. You deceive people either out of your ignorance or intentionally.....
I suggest a bit of time in Jeremiah 23, Ezekiel 34 and Matthew 23.
25+ wrote:
"This whole discussion is off track."
Which, IMO, is JLE's purpose here.
25+ said
This whole discussion is off track. The reason that the sermon on "greed" was of interest on this board was because BBC has a pastor who may have a pay package (total, that is of all items) in the range of 500,000 dollars...
Piglet says:
Amen!! The whole point is the hypocrisy of SG to preach such a sermon in the first place. It's a wonder that he wasn't reduced to ashes in the pulpit where he stood.....
I don't think I have spoken down to anyone, regardless, if I have been offensive, it is not my intent and I seek each persons forgiveness.
It seems that most here can not handle differences of thought. I am not wanting to debate but seek truth and a wider thought process than what is often presented.
SG may have done some awful things but there is nothing he has done to cause some of you to type so ugly towards another believer. These are decisions you have made on your own.
I have hoped to help some of you think less negatively about a bad situation but there is such a pain or unsettledness in the heart that doing so is either being rejected or dismissed as unacceptable.
I can not change you but I will pray for you. I have tried to show love, with firmness and gentleness both.
I will withdraw from the debate that has arisen and will post only to continue to love. If you disagree with me, I will still love you and not call you names or think less of you.
God is bigger than all of this. I encourage you to make your talk about Him, not the church or SG. You will be amazed at the wonders he will bring to your hurting heart.
Till next time.
Friends,
I served as a Senior pastor for nearly twenty years...and have recently started a ministry of Encouragement to Churches and Pastors.
I loved Dr. Rogers and met him on several occasions, he was so kind, so humble….but of course you all know that…..how blessed you were to share a season in his path.
I am grieved to see what is happening in so many churches today. I actually saw an ad today for a Pastor/Comedian to begin a Church based in a comedy club!
There is a shallowness in modern day preaching that is in a word frightening. Thankfully there are some bright spots in and around the country.
I want you to know that am saddened by the dismantling of Bellevue. I refuse to believe it has happened because Dr. Rogers was too hard to follow.
Bellevue certainly has enough love to give the Pastor who succeeded Dr. Rogers….but that man has to be humble, Spirit Filled, and decidedly led by God.
R. G. Lee was once asked by a young preacher how to have a strong ministry….Dr. lee replied…
Preach Good,
Pray a lot
And work hard!
How we need more men like that!
Jon: After all this time you still don't seem to "get" it. We KNOW "God is bigger than all of this" and we KNOW God is in control. But we also know that we have a responsibility as a follower of Jesus the Christ to keep His Word pure and his sheep from being led astray, as best we can. Twisting of scripture, hypocracy of deeds, and dishonoring our God just cannot be tolerated. We are not here to debate "differences of thought." We are here to call to accountability leadership of BBC and in the process have learned and studied together as well.
Jon said,
"It seems that most here can not handle differences of thought. I am not wanting to debate but seek truth and a wider thought process than what is often presented."
Jon, it is a lot more than a difference of thought. And you seek more than truth and a wider process. If you did, you would be worded up and not speaking lies and sell deception.
Face it. The truth seekers that you seek to engage are fully aware of the TRUTH. The Truth seekers you attempt to discredit know the TRUTH. I for one will not be deceived any longer by a man that knows not the TRUTH but peddles lies through deception and twisting of the WORD to enslave the very people that Jesus died on the cross to free...
"Till next time."
We will be here. Standing on the WORD.
Peace and love to you!
Oh Ezekial,
Thank you for your 5:00 p.m. post.
Thank you for all your posts.
I wanted to respond to Bro E's sign-off post, but knew I could not do so "with grace and love".
You said everything I thought - I especially like the term "worded up".
"It seems that most here can not handle differences of thought. I am not wanting to debate but seek truth and a wider thought process than what is often presented."
Translation: You don't agree with me so you are narrow minded.
Jon, I have a hard time believing you seek truth based on 90% of your comments to date.
"SG may have done some awful things but there is nothing he has done to cause some of you to type so ugly towards another believer. These are decisions you have made on your own."
Translation: telling any negative truths is bad. (This is a favorite of authoritarian pastors)
"I have hoped to help some of you think less negatively about a bad situation but there is such a pain or unsettledness in the heart that doing so is either being rejected or dismissed as unacceptable. "
Kind of hard to think positively about false teachers. Extra biblical and/or False teaching is very 'unsettling'. Contending for the truth will get one rejected real quick. Especially in seeker circles.
"I can not change you but I will pray for you. I have tried to show love, with firmness and gentleness both."
You want to show REAL love? Then
do this Jon, quit reading things into scripture such as Christians must have 'charm' and 'wit' in their speech. Sheesh! Jon! That is like saying, Christians should be fake and clever.
"I will withdraw from the debate that has arisen and will post only to continue to love. If you disagree with me, I will still love you and not call you names or think less of you."
Jon, what does this sentence you wrote say:
"I am not wanting to debate but seek truth and a wider thought process than what is often presented"
That is just a 'charming' and 'clever' way to say we are narrow minded in your view. I would rather you call me names! :o) It is more honest.
"God is bigger than all of this. I encourage you to make your talk about Him, not the church or SG. You will be amazed at the wonders he will bring to your hurting heart."
His wonderful plan for our lives, Jon? You don't get it. Most of us here already know how big our Thrice Holy God is and that is exactly what scares us about those who are false teachers and wolves. This is no little thing. Eternal lives are at stake.
It is because I LOVE Christ so much that I cannot bear any false teaching or orthopraxy that is against orthodoxy.
If ANYTHING I have written on this blog is not scriptural truth, I pray the Lord will discipline me quickly. I mean that. That is how seriously I take HIS WORD.
Time is short, folks.
The Jesus Christ we are hearing about all over the place is NOT the same one that is coming back in WRATH. To Judge. But we have HOPE if we are willing to repent, give it all up and follow HIM.
Nothing in my hands I bring...ONLY to the CROSS I CLING.
Jon, I posted this to you earlier this afternoon. You have not responded. I am posting it again in the chance you overlooked my post to you? Would like some encouragement on this post. ??? Then will bid my farewell to you. Thank you...Ima
_______________________________
Imaresistor said...
Jon,
Just as an aside to fan my curiosity I suppose...a question for you. Give it ample thought first.
These people...the ones unwanted at BBC, the ones who have been asked to leave, the ones who have been literally run off-you know the ones I make reference to. Tell me how they are supposed to feel? Tell me how they are supposed to respond to the treatment they have received? And about the love...can they genuinely love those who have cast them out of their church? Tell me...give me, and them, the answers. Your opinion as a church member and/or a pastor/minister. Biblically speaking...the answer to this.
2:04 PM, July 10, 2007
Jon said
God is bigger than all of this. I encourage you to make your talk about Him, not the church or SG. You will be amazed at the wonders he will bring to your hurting heart.
Piglet says:
The Lord has already applied his healing balm to my heart. But having a Bible study online is not the purpose of this blog. It was created as a last ditch effort to get the truth out to BBC members when all other legitimate avenues were denied us by the offending parties.
I'm sure SG would rather there be no more discussion of him here, and would rejoice if we chose other topics. Then he could go about his dirty business couldn't he?
Why, PW would still be on staff, and many who have left would still be at BBC obliviously contributing to SG's empire and other liberal causes. And we might still be thinking all this was just about the music - like our blog-hating SS teacher has tried to tell us for months.
I guess for some - "ignorance is bliss" - especially for those whose sin is covered.
25+ and Lindon
Great responses to Jon.
First we are called hate-filled by the far left. Now by some of our own SBC pastors - all for not tolerating sin - and in, of all places - the pulpit!!
Disclaimer:
The preceeding statement does not apply to those many spirit-filled, bold, Christ honoring, flock-loving servants of the Lord who still call sin what it is. :0)
AOG said:
The crux of the A & S issue is plain without a knowledge of Greek, since all the major translations render the passage pretty much the same without significantly changing the meaning of it in any slight differences each may have.
oc says: yep. It certainly was quite ridiculous. And his greek scholarship wasn't all that great. But it got estes the attention he was seeking for today. That whole 'greek' thing was an exercise in.....(someone fill in the blank, I'm trying to be nice today).
Well, maybe it was just a.... mistake.
and AOG also says:
It appears you value being declared "right" over the passage more than what the passage has to say to us.
oc says: yep. And to do gymnastics with the Word of God?
Well, that's certainly no mistake, that can only be called....sin.
Just sayin'.
oc
Hey Blog friends,
Just catching up on the day.
It's sad to see most of the posts addressed to Jon. It appears he loves the focus to be on him....
BUT!!! Your responses to jon's posts have allowed so many out there to hear and see the truth of God's Word....
and turn away from the confusion sprinkled with cheap grace and deceiving charm.
Good job Truth Seekers!!!
Churchmouse is right.....so
we need to be ready for the "next jon."
Thanks Nass! for the time and talent you give to provide a forum NOT TO DEBATE....
but to point the weak,lost,and wounded to the narrow way,
to the Holiness of God,
to repentance of SIN!
Rest well!
Ezekiel stated:
Brother....you give me the impression that you have fallen victim to the deception of satan and are believing a lie.....
Response:
The following is the foundation of what I believe:
John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 6:48 I am that bread of life. 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 8
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
If that be a lie then a lie is what I am following.
If you look up the above verses in your Bible, you will most probably notice, depending on which version you are using, that the above will be written in red text. That is because the verses came straight from the Word. The Word is what I have put my trust and faith in to deliver me from the sin that has condemned to a life apart from God. In other words, I worship the Word.
Now many people have made it a priority to worship a different word than I worship. You hear people speak of "getting in the word." They study the word, they read the word from cover to cover as if it is their god. They have a misgiven that the Bible is the word. Jesus makes it clear that He is the Word. The Bible is a owner's guide to life, inspired wholly by God. It is a tool to be used, not an object to be worshipped. Bibliolatry is idolatry and is abhorred by God. So if you admonish someone to "get into the word" please be clear that you are admonishing that person to immerse himself to immerse himself in Jesus, not the Bible.
Ezekiel stated:
Don't look at affliction as the price you pay for grace. It is not and I never said that. Look at affliction as the tool or rod that He uses to cleanse and purify you....
Response:
I thought the blood of Christ is the tool that God uses to cleanse and purify me.
How often do I need to be cleansed and purified? I refer back to John 6.
I hope from this posting you see how easy it is to fall into the trap of worshipping the words instead of the Word!
Salvation is simple. Again I refer you John 6 and 8. You might even call it easy believism. So many today get so wrapped up in the words that they fail to get the message of the words. It is also easy to trip over the actual meaning of a word. I know of a person who is deathly afraid of God. When I asked him how on this earth he could be afraid of the very one that sacraficed so much to provide for his salvation, he stated that he was merely obeying the Bible. He had no idea that to fear God actually meant to treat God with devout reverence.
To debate one set of verses from the Bible with another set of verses takes the spotlight off the actual Word and does not raise the Jesus in our lives.
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