This one is next to the seminary and faces west:
That's a nice sentiment, but it's only part of the verse. This is the verse in its entirety.
"Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited." Romans 12:16 NIV
Read the verse in context here.
This one is adjacent to the ball fields and faces east:
"Pray for one another." There's certainly nothing wrong with that. But is that what James 5:9 really says? Let's take a look.
"Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!" James 5:9 NIV
Read the verse in context here. The verse on the billboard is a snippet from James 5:16 NASB. So why doesn't the sign say "James 5:16"? Is this just another "mistake of the mind"?
And now we have word of a third billboard, this one on Summer Avenue near Mendenhall.
Here is that verse in its entirety: "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching." Hebrews 10:25 NIV
I've heard there are more of these billboards around town. Anyone who knows the location of others (photos would be nice), please let me know. I'm sure these aren't the only hidden nuggets just waiting for the "dissenters" to find. Think of it as a sheep-beaters treasure hunt!
723 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 723 Newer› Newest»NASS,
Thanks for all you do!
unaroachable,
That's a good thing. Must mean without 'roach'. Cool.
25+,
Thank you for standing for the many more Baptist ministers out there who work hard, and serve according to God's word than those who do not.
I still believe Jon's point is not about the blog in itself, or about your stand for truth, or rebuking the Pastor and leadership for their sin. It is about the times when some call people names, make fun at the expense of others (posting a picture of the pastor's head superimposed on a ventriloquist holding a dummy?), and just do not display a Christ-like mindset (regardless of what "side" you are on).
I am sure you will not want to see me posting this again. But I believe strongly that this is the gist of what Jon was trying to say.
I have been reading and studying Ephesians 4:17-5:17. I would encourage you to read and study this particularly long passage. Not only does this seem to apply to all aspects of the situation at BBC, but to the Church universal. I personally have been challenged in some of the areas of life Paul is teaching about here.
I pray a blessed night for you all.
Gmommy,
I agree that Jon is singing the same tune that has been played for this blog time and again. I couldn't help but notice that he is about SG's age and wonder if they went to school at Union or SWBTS together at some point.
But I have just noticed that several (not just your post), several who post here have begun to blast all ministers. If that becomes the trend, the blog will be written off. It hasn't because normally it is focused, specific, and calls for specific reform.
jmo
cory complains about this:(posting a picture of the pastor's head superimposed on a ventriloquist holding a dummy?),
oc says: Hmmm. You clicked on the link, didn't you? Who made you do it? And,it could have been the other way around. Probably would have made better sense.
Just sayin.
25+ said:
I have just noticed that several who post here have begun to blast all ministers.
Reply: It may appear that way at a glance, but in reality, we are looking for that Godly servant called minister, pastor, shepherd; and praying that God will direct us to that Godly servant.
With all the heartache still fresh from the BBC takeover, and with the arrogance of SG, we are struggling to regain that Christian composure we once had, but it is a moment by moment struggle.
Then, when some alleged pastor that no one knows begins to post messages that are critical of our thoughts without providing any guidance other than a mantra of "grace and truth", it's like pouring gas on a fire.
Then you have the SBC convention which focused on such liberal hog wash - we the wounded, stand again with our mouths wide open in shock, dismay and disgust.
Then there's the issue with the attitudes and behavior of P. Patterson. Another slap.
Well, please bear with us as we go through the pain. We will get there by the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ.
To those ministers who preach the gospel and serve according to His Word, please know what a blessing it is to our broken hearts to know that there are godly men out there who are real shepherds of their flock. There is no need for these godly folks to take offense as they stand head and shoulders above the rest.
oc said...
cory complains about this:(posting a picture of the pastor's head superimposed on a ventriloquist holding a dummy?),
oc says: Hmmm. You clicked on the link, didn't you? Who made you do it? And,it could have been the other way around. Probably would have made better sense.
Just sayin.
I'm not complaining...I'm simply calling out sin that does not edify the Body or portray an example of Christ like behavior. Most of you are all over people who do not exhibit this behavior, but when one of your own does it, the behavior is excused and ignored.
25+: Please email me.
Thanks! :)
Copied from Cory's blog today:
I have been following the trouble at Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis. There is a link on my blog to a blog that many of their members post on to "make the truth heard" about their church and the issues regarding the Pastor and some things he has done (or not done).
There was a sex scandal involving a staff member, and the Pastor did not immediately remove the person from their positon (a bad mistake IMHO). This group who blogs now continuously look for things to rag on the church and the Pastor about. They have accused him of twisting and ignoring Scripture, and they call on everyone to study Scripture in context so they will know the truth. They do this in one post, but then two posts later someone is calling the Pastor a moonbat, saying they believe he and certain other posters should be in prison, posting a picture with the pastor's head superimposed on a ventriloquist holding a dummy, and making otherwise crude statements about people who are their brothers and sisters in Christ.
I have made the occasional post to simply try and discourage these people from making such comments--they are doing nothing to further the cause of Christ nor are they edifying the Body. They are quick to come back with excuses of why they allow these things to take place among their own regulars. In one instance, I was told that one particular poster has been through sexual abuse in her past (the sex scandal at BBC involved a staff member in an abusive relationship with a family member), and thus they could excuse her comments that she makes because of her pain. While I sympathize with this lady's past abusive situation and her pain, does this excuse sin?
At any rate, everything they say comes back to Scripture in context--which they desire to apply to anyone who they disagree with or to the alleged wrongs committed by the Pastor and leadership. However, I have never one time seen any of them post an admonition to one of their "regulars" who makes a sinful comment or makes a non-Biblical response to study such and such Scripture in context and perhaps repent and ask forgiveness. There seems to be a double standard here, which is what they often say of the leadership at Bellevue. I have also seen them say (imply--not in exact words) that as long as the leadership is not completely beyond reproach, they don't have to be either.
Granted, I am a sinner just like everyone else, and I have been through many things at the hands of church members and their personal desires, but I have never spoken to one of them either in person or in writing (blogs, email, etc.) in a manner which I thought was combative, and I certainly have not called them names in public and/or posted distorted pictures of them online.
I was led to a passage in Ephesians last night during church (the preacher was in Galatians--sometimes my mind wanders a bit!). Ephesians 4:17-5:17 I believe speaks very clearly not only to the situation at Bellevue, but to the Church universal in the 21st Century (as all Scripture does). It is too lengthy to post here (because of all the context!), but I encourage you to read it. It certainly has spoken to me as I have studied it last night and some more today. As Christians we are to be different from the Gentiles (the unsaved), and all too often we allow how we live our lives (our conduct, our speech, our anger, etc.) to detract from what we should be about--leading the unsaved to Christ. I am chief among these, and I pray the Spirit of God empowers me to live a more Christ-like life.
That's my rant for now. I may post more later on the Bellevue thing. Hope you all have a great day!
Reply: Very much akin to Jon Estes in many ways. Good bye.
If you really believe the message you proclaim is one God has called you to proclaim, follow Luke 9. If they won't hear you, move on, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them. There is a wonderful story to be told and its not about the woes of BBC and SG, the only story many here seem to be telling.
I will continue to pray for you and the situation at hand. Praying that God's saving grace will be presented in all we do.
Jon E:
Didn't I blog to you last week that you should not post about things for which you know nothing about?
The sheep on this blog have LIVED what we are blogging about.
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE coming in here and acting like you have all the answers and that we should do whatever, just becuase in your ivory tower, that's they way it SHOULD be.
WEll, Preacher Jon, if you think you can handle SG, get in your car, and come down here and request a Matthew 18 conference with him.
You'll be singing a different tune.
NOW,
CUDDIT OUT!
Lily asks -
Why are these ministers from other states posting to us? Why are they not gracefully confronting the pastor?
* * * * *
word verification: uhobwmy
Could it be that some folks prefer this over the light of truth?
I do like what Jon said -
"shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them"
I believe we discussed that at the alley.
Cory and Preacher Jon,
Here's a list of SOME of the things that Sg has done to his sheep.
For you, Cory, to state that ALL he has done is to harbor a sexual predator, is inaccurate.
Read on:
. Trespassing on private property in a gated community and climbing over the "itty-bitty" 41" fence, then trying to liken it to an EE visit. Sr Pastor, Steve Gaines, then Assoc Pastor Mark Dougharty, Chuck Taylor and John Caldwell.
2. Refusing to be transparent in the financial matters of the church
3. Refusing to allow members a membership directory, copies of by-laws, copies of minutes of Board meetings..oh, I forgot, no minutes, no business to discuss, just more evidence that a few corrupt men are handling all the church business as they choose and are accountable to NO ONE!
4. Sr Pastor, Steve Gaines, Calling a deacon "Hez" after he and his 3 co-conspirators trespassed on the deacons property.
5. Sr Pastor, Steve Gaines, using the church credit card for personal expenses, and standing before the church on a Wed night and lying about EVER using the church credit card for personal use.
6. Sr Pastor, Steve Gaines refusing to abide by Matt 18.
7. Sr Pastor, Steve Gaines, saying he doesn't preach on Wed nights, needs time with his family..TRUTH..HE HAS HAD SEVERAL SPEAKING ENGAGEMENTS AWAY FROM BELLEVUE ON WED NIGHTS FOR EXTRA $$$$ AND SEVERAL WERE CANCELLED WHEN THE WORLD FOUND OUT ABOUT HIS HARBORING A PEDOPHILE MINISTER ON STAFF FOR 6 MONTHS AFTER THE PEDOPHILE MINISTER CONFESSED TO STEVE GAINES AND STEVE GAINES DID NOTHING ABOUT IT, UNTIL THE VICTIM CALLED HIS HAND ON IT!
8. Steve Gaines, Sr Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church harboring a confessed pedophile minister for 6 months, allowing him to roam the halls of Bellevue Baptist Church and saying "it is under the blood". Steve Gaines only revealing the information when the victim, the son of the pedophile, came to Steve Gaines wanting to know how he could allow him to remain in his position. If not for this brave young man, would PW still be roaming the halls of Bellevue Baptist Church??
9. Steve Gaines bragging to his Gardendale congregation how he "told them everything that is wrong with Bellevue", talking to Union in Jackson bragging about the "information meeting, no discussions" and that he didn't just fall off a cabbage truck!
10. The joke of a monkey-business meeting. The pre-planned motion to adjourn..because of their concern of children staying in the nursery so long and the nursery workers, what a joke!! When the motion was made to have quarterly business meetings and to adopt the SBC's June 2002 resolution on the sexual integrity of ministers one of their pre-planned plants, Mr Angel, made the motion to adjourn. Them bragging about shutting down the mic's. They saw the victim approaching a mic to be addressed and shut down the mic and had the audacity to brag about it!
11. They are concerned about the nursery workers, who were paid help for the monkey business meeting, and the children being in the nursery for maybe an additional 10-15 minutes, long enough to vote on adopting the SBC's resolution on the sexual integrity of ministers and having quarterly business meetings...BUT, STEVE GAINES was NOT concerned about allowing a confessed pedophile roam the halls, exposed to children, anytime he would desire to be, for 6 MONTHS AFTER THE PEDOPHILE CONFESSED TO STEVE GAINES!!!!!!!
"You wome.......err...brothe....err....offspring sure do have a knack for communication! Preach on there sist....err....brothe....errr Priscilla Lin....:) "
Uh thanks...uh..er...brother. Call me Junia. :o) But remember, I have NO authority over you on this blog! You are reading 'voluntarily'. :0)
SOTL -
Yes Ma'am and Ye Ma'am
and
Amen and Amen.
SOTL,
Don't forget the harassment of the 15 year old girl that he allowed to happen.
gmommy, Do you know where all those teaching pastors are?
Well, for one thing...we have never heard of them. They seek not fame, power, wealth, high salaries, royalties, mega churches, new buildings, etc. They have calloused knees and the Holy Spirit writes their sermons..all of them. They are humble, broken, joyful and faithful.
The thing is: They are not popular because they preach the full counsel of God and that is just not acceptable anymore. It empties pews. Very few have ever heard of them except the few they have ministered to.
They have taken the narrow road...and few travel upon it so they are not really well known.
They have stored up ALL their treasures in heaven.
"harassment of the 15 year old girl"? Not to blast you Lynn, but I would call it brutality. Harassment is a rather mild description of what happened.
cory says:
I'm not complaining...I'm simply calling out sin that does not edify the Body or portray an example of Christ like behavior. Most of you are all over people who do not exhibit this behavior, but when one of your own does it, the behavior is excused and ignored.
oc says: Oh, 'the caller out of sin', are you? You are the one who interprets what Christ like behavior is. Good, then you should have a field day with SG, if you care to look.
Otherwise, quit beating the sheep. They've had enough beating from their own undershepherd. Why do you insist on defending one who has proven his unworthiness to be a shepherd; and there has been several 'incidences' to prove it. I'll tell you what, that is why these sheep trust you not. Why don't you and jon estes practice some of that grace ya'll talk about and use it toward the bloody and broken sheep on this blog instead of coming here to defend the sin of what seems to be some old friend to you.
It seems ingenuine for you to come here and 'call out sin' and defend it on the other hand.
Just sayin.
oc
Lin: thank you for that blessed reminder. I know of one such pastor. He went to be with the Lord two years ago and he is still missed and his influence still carries on. You would never know him if I said his name.
But I do and he was the best pastor I have ever known.
Lily Pad said...
"harassment of the 15 year old girl"? Not to blast you Lynn, but I would call it brutality. Harassment is a rather mild description of what happened.
10:12 PM, June 25, 2007
Good Point.
Cory: Not every communication is posted on the blog. Many of us have personal addresses on our profile and sometimes rebukes are in private. Before you jump on me for SG's being in public, let me remind you that it has been attempted time and again for private meeting and he has refused. Letters have been privately sent to him though; it just hasn't changed anything. Anyway, many bloggers are rebuked in private by those who love them. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just wanted you to know.
:)
Lily Pad
The readers of Cory's blog will be sorely lacking when it comes to the whole story, won't they?
No mention of the refusal to hold business meetings or to be financially transparent.
He implies that the pedophile issue is the only one (atleast he's not saying it's the music) and that the other issues amount to nit picking.
The pedophile issue is enough all by itself but, as it happens, much had happened before this and it was already clear that SG was not fit for the ministry.
Most of us thought his keeping a pedophile on staff was undeniable proof that the man lacked the discernment necessary to pastor a church the size of Bellevue, but instead, it became apparent that his supporters were determined to keep him at any price (pun intended).
oc,
Can you back up your accusation that I have defended the sins of anyone?
Baseless accusations towards me which need support or an apology. This blog is not the place for me to speak negative about SG or prove to anyone what things I have done to show grace to brother Gaines. That is between he, God and me only.
Please show your source for your accusation or apologize. I will forgive you.
To do less is to weaken your voice and make every accusation moot, except for those who feed off of them.
"If you really believe the message you proclaim is one God has called you to proclaim, follow Luke 9. If they won't hear you, move on, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them. There is a wonderful story to be told and its not about the woes of BBC and SG, the only story many here seem to be telling."
I am afraid I cannot agree that Luke 9 fits the situation. Perhaps..Jude..and Revelations 3: 14+ best fits.
But you are right...there is a wonderful story to be told. And this blog mainly caters to those who call themselves Christians. The unbelievers who visit here are usually survivors of sexual abuse. So, my point is that when we discuss scripture here in context we are telling a WONDERFUL story!
But sugggesting that bloggers move on.... I am sure would suit all pastors/elders/seminiary presidents who abuse their position. Nice try, though. :o)
And, do you know Cory? He keeps trying to interpret your comments for you. :o)
Bro Jon said
"That is between he (SG), God and me only."
Reply: Please take it on up then Brother, no need to waste time with usins.
I"m sure that SG would breathe a HUGE sigh of relief if we decided to stop reminding people on this blog of how unfit he is to be a pastor of a church the size of BBC.
AS long as my fingers will type, I will scream ( er, type) it from the rooftops.
Preacher Jon,
Your attitude reminds me of the pursed lips and folded hands church goers.
Do not come on here and judge us about things you have no idea about!
NOW, again, i say to you:
CUDDIT OUT!
Oc will show his source of accusation when you respond like
a seminary educated minister to Lin's and 25+'s posts from today.
With scripture references.
Act like a minister and not a flower child.
Break down their posts like 25+ has with sermon outlines.
Break away from the memorized script.
More than one person has stated that SG is unfit to be a pastor of a church the size of BBC.
In grace and truth I must ask that ye revisit your statements. SG as he is today, is unfit to pastor any church.
jon estes,
Oh good. Here it is. Avoiding the point and demanding apologies.
Now you have the attitude.
Where is that mushy grace now?
sickofthelies said...
AS long as my fingers will type, I will scream ( er, type) it from the rooftops.
Don't you mean from the desktop? Or is it a laptop?
Oh come on OC, Bro Jon said (with pursed lips perhaps) that he would forgive you! That's showing that grace and benevolence!
lily pad said,
Oh come on OC, Bro Jon said (with pursed lips perhaps) that he would forgive you! That's showing that grace and benevolence!
oc says: well, isn't that special.
Jon wrote:
"This blog is not the place for me to speak negative about SG or prove to anyone what things I have done to show grace to brother Gaines. That is between he, God and me only."
Then applying the same standard, this blog isn't the place for you to speak negative(ly) about any of the rest of us, is it?
I find it interesting you apparently were banned from posting on the BaptistLife forum sometime before August 2004. You must have really ticked someone off to have been banned from there, as some of their discussions make ours look like a tea party.
Good job oh mighty blog administrator!!
why said:
They simpy do not get it.
Now that's rich.
"This blog is not the place for me to speak negative about SG or prove to anyone what things I have done to show grace to brother Gaines. That is between he, God and me only."
Truth is sometimes negative. Public sins call for public rebukes so all can learn. Rebukes with tears are loving. You may save his life! You know, if Ted Haggard had not been outed, what could have happened in the long run? We still do not know if it was a true repentence but we must take him at his word. But he can never go back into ministry according to scritpural standards.
The point is...there were those around him who knew somthing was wrong and maybe even the truth, but never said anything publicly. Think about that.
Truth is Jon, your comments here lead me to believe you have bought into the Robert Schuller school of Theology. You are not alone...most of Christendom has gone there...led by their pastors.
You have more concern for a well known wealthy pastor who should know better to ignore/twist scripture than you do for puny bloggers with no power who have been beat up by the Shepherd. Some have even had to fear for their jobs or businesses as those in power are wealthy, well connected and vengeful. (You do not know the half of it)
Just this topic thread ALONE about the misuse/proof texting of scripture on billboards ought to concern you as a pastor.
Your pleas, warnings run hollow in light of what has really gone on. It is as if you are straining at a gnat while ignoring the elephant:
For this is really the problem:
Matthew 23:24-26
24You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
25"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
27"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. 28So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
My apologies for not mentioning everything SG has done. I did not want to be typing all day long. What did I say that supports him? Nothing. Thanks for coming to my blog though. are you saying that some of these comments and things that some of you have posted are not also sin? Sin is sin. We all do it. I never said ANYTHING about you guys calling out sin in the leadership publicly. I believe it is possible for you to do it without name calling and some of the other things I have mentioned.
whyne wrote:
"By the way pastor jon, I have been banned for no reason from posting here"
Oh, give me a break! Is there some confusion over the meaning of the word "banned"? Must be, as "whyne" and "watchinghisssssstory" can't seem to grasp the concept.
Wow, you guys are harsh! But funny!
True or False?
Joseph is to his brothers
As
Grace is to hurt bloggers.
Just askin'
Ahhhhhh...now the truth comes out.
Respond to the gmommy and nass but ignore the posts you can't handle.
The flower child is a fraud. You come here spewing grace but your are a trouble maker. What a surprise.
Still waiting for you to break down Lin and 25's post in the same way done by our own that BELIEVE and understand scripture.
Take a stab at it...instead of our backs.
Dear Jon and Cory:
Please forgive us beaten sheep for showing our scars and bruises. We may appear callused, but it's only as a temporary survival skill.
With God as the source of our strength and the strength of our life, we shall remain warriors for the truth.
I tell ya, folks. We certainly have some self-righteous, out-of-state pastors lately, don't we? Are things really so boring in NC and TX that you guys have to come to Memphis and tell us how to deal with our problems? Go rebuke Steve Gaines for the partial laundry list SOTL posted (I dare you), and then we'll talk.
Something I think everyone needs to remember is that we want integrity restored to the pulpit at BBC. This is not meant to be a "witch hunt" of any kind. However, there is sin in leadership and it is impacting many more people and organizations than you can imagine and it needs to be addressed in a scriptural manner.
Again, I apologize if I come across as self-righteous. I am not. I still don't see in anything I have ever said on here or even my own blog that supports or defends SG.
Lily Pad--thanks for your words of apology. I understand what it means to be hurt by both pastors and fellow church members.
gmommy said...
You come here spewing grace
I had laugh at that one! Not sure which is worse around here, all this spewing hate or the spewing grace! Or maybe its when we laugh so hard we spew our drinks on our keyboards!
NASS,
Durn, one's from Texas? That's flat embarrassin'.
Another demerit for the Lone Star state.
drbunsen said...
True or False?
Joseph is to his brothers
As
Grace is to hurt bloggers.
Just askin'
Ok, I'll bite ...
Uhhhh ... Whaaaaa?
drbunsen wrote:
"True or False?
Joseph is to his brothers
As
Grace is to hurt bloggers."
Ummm... "nonexistent"?
DRBunsen: I'll give the analogy idea a go......
Analogy idea 1: Joseph ultimately saved his brothers from the famine; so grace saves hurt bloggers?
Analogy idea 2: Joseph rubbed his favoritism in his brothers faces; is grace getting rubbed in hurt bloggers faces?
cory says,
Lily Pad--thanks for your words of apology. I understand what it means to be hurt by both pastors and fellow church members.
oc says: uh uh. Nope.I know this is Lily's. But what should she be apologizing for? For not being self righteous like you?
Maybe DrBunsen meant that
Joseph forgave his brothers for their sins against him, so someone who is gracious will forgive the bloggers for their sins.
Or maybe it's a mystery, like where socks go when you put them in the dryer...
I don't have anything else to say at the moment, but I just have to post cuz the word verification is "nerdo". I can so relate to that!
Goodnight everybody!!
New BBC Open Forum said...
I tell ya, folks. We certainly have some self-righteous, out-of-state pastors lately, don't we? Are things really so boring in NC and TX that you guys have to come to Memphis and tell us how to deal with our problems? Go rebuke Steve Gaines for the partial laundry list SOTL posted (I dare you), and then we'll talk.
10:55 PM, June 25, 2007
NASS, this is just my own opinion, but I think the problem is that they are not here so they don't realize how much damage has been done to Bellevue by the leadership running the church. Allofgrace had the best opinion when he said used the doctor analogy. Its a brotherhood. No one wants to call out one of their own on the carpet when a pastor destroys the trust and loses the respect of the flock. Instead, they shift the blame to those who hurt. Granted some of the comments, mine included, have been a bit over the top, but that still does not excuse Bellevue leadership for acting like they are higher or better than we are.
Junk,
Why didn't you bowl with us?????
I missed you!
Ezekiel,
Thank you for your post earlier.....you must try and bowl with us next time!!!!!!!!!
gmommy,
Funny thing, I was out bowling with a bunch of Budhists that night. But the moment is gone ...
:)
drbunsen, bad analogy. Try this one...using Jewish multitude + Pharisees.
The multitudes are to Pharisees
AS
Grace is to hurt bloggers?
Just does not work.
You guys do not get it. We are dealing with modern day Pharisees. They are wealthy (off tithes), powerful, vengeful, lord it over others, secretive, etc. They do not pracitce what they preach..they point fingers and blame others for their own failings...I could go on and on.
But please...let's use accurate analogies. Gaines does not fit the criterion for the brothers nor for Joseph. Try again. This time remember, he is a false teacher.
OC,
I really don't understand. I have apologized. Why are you being so combative?
Junk,
There will be more moments!!!
Remember padroc said I was delightful!!!!!
Frauds make my claws come out.But I hope you join us next time!
Can't believe I wasted my time.
I sincerely apologize to my sweet blog friends...you included 25+!!!!!
The person behind the curtain
(with the great brain) is maaaaaaarvelous!!!
Time to be gone please....
oc...we know who we are dealing with now....no more energy to them:)
cory said,
OC,
I really don't understand. I have apologized. Why are you being so combative?
oc says:
I don't claim to be the brightest crayon in the box. But why are you dealing with Lily? You wonder why I'm 'combative'? I'm a warrior, a soldier of Christ. I'm not going to sit here while you pound on the wounded sheep with the hellp of your little friend jon. (and yes, I spelled the word'help' that way on purpose.)
Now, you choose this day whom you will serve. One side or the other. And if you want to battle, choose me.
Well, thanks for giving the analogy a look.
I was thinking:
Joseph was betrayed by his brothers
As
Grace has been betrayed by hurt bloggers.
It seems this is what I have discovered about myself reading some of the comments here with Jon Estes. So this is/was true of me.
Night
Hey, Cakes here (thesaurus.com),
Sorry I've been MIA; I think I sprained my elbow playing the bowling Friday, besides breaking my stick on those heavy cue balls.
Hope everyone is well.
Cakes!!!!
We had a little trouble tonight but all better now!!!!
Are you really hurt????
All I did was respond to her comment. I am not beating sheep. I do not even know Jon. I have said nothing to personally denigrate you or anyone else.
We have moved on Corey.
Next time, maybe check out who you back.
drbunsen said,
I was thinking:
Joseph was betrayed by his brothers
As
Grace has been betrayed by hurt bloggers.
It seems this is what I have discovered about myself reading some of the comments here with Jon Estes. So this is/was true of me.
oc says:
Hurt bloggers have betrayed grace?
Are you sure you know what you are saying?
Just because you are getting sucked in by jon estes, who himself has a shadowy past, doesn't mean you need to encourage others to follow you to the depths of hell. I suggest you back up, study, pray and repent. I don't think you even know what you are talking about.
Come on, are you Ace? Cause you don't make any sense.
I wrote:
"'True or False?
Joseph is to his brothers
As
Grace is to hurt bloggers.'
"Ummm... 'nonexistent'?"
What I meant was Joseph's brothers considered him "nonexistent," and the grace shown to hurt bloggers has pretty much been the same. I stand by that.
Go play somewhere else please.
We are done with trouble for today.
Good night,sleep tight!
OC, you've got mail.
No, I'm not really hurt.
Truthseekers,
What it comes down to for people is that NBBCOF is flawed, as if the crisis could have engendered the perfect response by a wide spectrum of alienated and dispossessed. This is simply about trust and accountability--it seems Mr Gaines & co. seeks a religious indulgence.
There was a big hole in the church following the sex scandal, and on the heels of all that other crap--where those affected by this abomination of trust and responsibility by their own leaders may be dicussed openly and honestly. No real reconcilliation can take place if everyone is going to play nice and repeat the company line. That's unity at the cost of ones common sense.
Bellevue thought it could control the playbook by not providing such a forum, so it naturally established outside of it. It is as imperfect as those that contribute to it, and those that come here to trash it. Where's your contempt for the people who brung ya, eh?
They could have truly dealt with this injury to their church body in a more humble and open-hearted manner--they gots the real estate, a PA and folding chairs to facilitate it. But no, it was all about them and their blessed careers.
Bellevue leadership has to take responsibility for NBBCOF, IDC, savingbellevue, Bratoon's, etc.
Well said sweet cakes!!!
So glad you were just busy the last few days..
Had so much fun bowling with you!!
Cory, you got mail back.
aog wrote:
"why said:
They simpy do not get it.
"Now that's rich."
LOL! Just catching up. Priceless!
oc,
Now, don't be too rough on Cory. That black belt in bowling you've got doesn't give you license to be ungraceful! :-)
good thing we don't have to be down town dressed at 8 am!
Well, I guess it doesn’t matter what time it is. I am now wide awake so please let me share this with you.
oc says:
“Hurt bloggers have betrayed grace?
Are you sure you know what you are saying?
Just because you are getting sucked in by jon estes, who himself has a shadowy past, doesn't mean you need to encourage others to follow you to the depths of hell. I suggest you back up, study, pray and repent. I don't think you even know what you are talking about.
Come on, are you Ace? Cause you don't make any sense.”
12:36 AM, June 26, 2007
oc,
I can imagine you don’t know what I’m talking about. Forget about the person of Jon E or what he said or didn’t say or what he meant or what was meant by others.
My response was insightful for me and I thought perhaps maybe for others. I saw myself in a new way tonight. The very grace of God, which is unmerited favor that was shown me on the cross, I have been unwilling to show towards another sinner who has offended me and my church family grievously.
I’m thinking that I am akin to the man who owed the king ten million dollars and whose debt was totally forgiven and then went out and beat up a man and had him thrown in jail, who owed him 400 dollars. Sounds like me and I now hate that. You see this man betrayed grace and I am saying that until tonight so did I. No more!
I can say this…. I have the Holy Spirit to thank for some of Jon E’s words here tonight.
For my anger and hurt I have not posted in a long time and now that I have a confession to make and an insight to share you even want to summarily categorize me…. whom you do not even know or know anything about. And I have a problem?
Just for the record I am not any kind of troll. I’m just now getting to the point that my fists are coming unclenched and you attribute some kind of “hell bound” motive to my posting. And I have a problem?
Does anyone else see some part of themselves in my situation? Is there any compassion for me? Am I to remain angry, hostile, bitter, and stuck in my rut of self destruction over the sins of another?
I would like to think that if I were SG that I would have had the common sense to have resigned 6 mistakes of the mind ago, but I am not…. And yet, I am the one giving this man a piece of my soul in anger and distress…. NO more!!!! Thank you Holy Spirit! Thank you Lord for using your servant Jon Estes words to illuminate my sin of self righteousness that I might repent of my contemptuous attitudes and love again. I still hate sin but I now refuse to hate or hold a grudge against anyone for sinning against me and then lying about it. Thank you Lord for forgiving me for ignoring the witness of the Holy Spirit who has made sure I was almost continually grieved by my own sins in this matter.
Pray for me and anyone else who finds themselves some kind of prisoner to their angry thoughts. Truth has set me free. By the way OC, you didn’t hurt any of my feelings because I don’t know you.
oc said...
jon estes,
Oh good. Here it is. Avoiding the point and demanding apologies.
Now you have the attitude.
Where is that mushy grace now?
10:34 PM, June 25, 2007
So you have nothing to back up your accusation?
I forgive you, regardless.
Has Chuck Taylor disapperared from BBC? Haven't seen him in a while. I know a few of the Deacons and teachers have left. Maybe he is gone too. That would be a plus.
Nass said, "What I meant was Joseph's brothers considered him "nonexistent," and the grace shown to hurt bloggers has pretty much been the same. I stand by that."
I'll buy that. :)
Hey sweet cakes!!
So nice to bowl with you the other night.
I bet you didn't know you were bowling with THE QUEEN.
Jon: You have been requested numerous times by numerous people to be specific on exactly what we should do to call sin, sin, yet still show grace.
I'm sure you are not intending to, but some of your posts come off as condescending and less than gracious. Please answer the questions put to you from a scriptural foundation so we can better understand your comments to us.
Thanks. :)
drbunsen wrote:
"For my anger and hurt I have not posted in a long time... "
Your profile shows you registered this month, and I know I've never seen your current screen name before. What screen name were you using before when you posted? You sound familiar to me.
Dr. Bunsen, I presume?
truthseeker wrote:
"I know a few of the Deacons and teachers have left."
A few? Wait until August. I fear there's going to be a lot more.
concernedSBCer said...
Jon: You have been requested numerous times by numerous people to be specific on exactly what we should do to call sin, sin, yet still show grace.
I'm sure you are not intending to, but some of your posts come off as condescending and less than gracious. Please answer the questions put to you from a scriptural foundation so we can better understand your comments to us.
Thanks. :)
8:54 AM, June 26, 2007
Two things.
1 - I am glad you noticed that some of my words were less than graceful. It is good to know that what is of grace and what is not can be noticed.
2 - I submitted a mini message from when I spoke on this issue a while back. The passage was out of Colossians (I am preaching through Colossians right now and should be finished in a few weeks). The blog administrator is the one who will choose to publish it or not.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Jon wrote:
"This blog is not the place for me to speak negative about SG or prove to anyone what things I have done to show grace to brother Gaines. That is between he, God and me only."
Then applying the same standard, this blog isn't the place for you to speak negative(ly) about any of the rest of us, is it?
I find it interesting you apparently were banned from posting on the BaptistLife forum sometime before August 2004. You must have really ticked someone off to have been banned from there, as some of their discussions make ours look like a tea party.
10:43 PM, June 25, 2007
I am speaking to you on the platform where you exist. You put your words out to be read and I am simply responding to you, in your house (this blog).
I will speak to SG in his house, not in yours, that would be wrong.
Yes, I was banned from bl.com it seems I was to far right for them and confrontational. I still stay in contact with a few, even have called two of the moderators in recent past and sought help in circumstances I thought they could help in.
being banned from bl.com is not a life ending event. I recommend that you register and get involved for a week or two. Read what some of the people there believe as baptists, what they will argue against and remain silent on.
It is a liberal board with some moderates and very few conservatives. Three regulars might believe in the inerrancy of scripture, most are pro-choice, a couple are universalists and even some pro-homosexual in ministry.
I love the guy who believes 911 was directed by Bush.
I've butted heads with them, stood my ground was asked to leave but remain friends with probably all but one (and it would be his way towards me).
I wish I could say as a very conservative pastor that being banned from a very liberal forum is a bad thing, but it is not.
Do a search of Steve Gaines, BBC and Adrian Rogers and see for yourselves what they represent.
drbunsen said
My response was insightful for me and I thought perhaps maybe for others. I saw myself in a new way tonight. The very grace of God, which is unmerited favor that was shown me on the cross, I have been unwilling to show towards another sinner who has offended me and my church family grievously.
Does anyone else see some part of themselves in my situation? Is there any compassion for me? Am I to remain angry, hostile, bitter, and stuck in my rut of self destruction over the sins of another?
Piglet says:
I get what you are saying. I don't want to be eat up with bitterness - that only hurts me, not those who have offended.
I am confident that I have a forgiving spirit, in that I have stated that should Gaines TRULY repent, I could enoy restored fellowship with him.
However, at this time we are standing for truth and calling for church discipline so this farce does not continue. There is a job to be done here. I can be a part of the solution and obey God without being bitter. This blog has exposed the truth and been FAR FAR more reliable than the men in the dark suits - though we have our faults....some of which have been apologized for and deleted, mind you.
Now for Cory and Jon,
So we have admitted that we , too, sin and have sometimes spoken carelessly, or even been hateful in a moment of weakness. This is SIN.
NOW, can we move on to stopping the rapid descent of a great church down the toilet, please, and dispense with the NIT PICKING from Gaines' peers?
Jon,
I was hoping to communicate with you in private, but you have not made your e-mail address available in your profile. Since you are obviously very familiar with blogging, I would like to know why you have resorted to yelling in your anwers.
You have expounded much on Grace and yet I sense no still and quite spirit in your current responses. Logs and dust specs you know.
If you have joined the forum to teach the bloggers here a thing or two, you may consider whether or not you have ben called. If grace demands that you shout your responses because you think that the members of this forum do not get it, then you may just be able now to place yourself in our shoes and understand why this forum exists in the first place.
If your shouting does not refect the Grace that you have demanded of others, then I suggest you cease now.
Piglet says:
NOW, can we move on to stopping the rapid descent of a great church down the toilet, please, and dispense with the NIT PICKING from Gaines' peers?
10:37 AM, June 26, 2007
1 - Is this up to me and Cory?
2 - Is asking for truth to be exhibited with grace, nitpicking?
aslansown said...
Jon,
I was hoping to communicate with you in private, but you have not made your e-mail address available in your profile. Since you are obviously very familiar with blogging, I would like to know why you have resorted to yelling in your anwers.
You have expounded much on Grace and yet I sense no still and quite spirit in your current responses. Logs and dust specs you know.
If you have joined the forum to teach the bloggers here a thing or two, you may consider whether or not you have ben called. If grace demands that you shout your responses because you think that the members of this forum do not get it, then you may just be able now to place yourself in our shoes and understand why this forum exists in the first place.
If your shouting does not refect the Grace that you have demanded of others, then I suggest you cease now.
10:43 AM, June 26, 2007
I am not sure I know what you are talking about. Unless you are speaking of my using bold type. I have been taught using all caps is considered yelling. My use of bold is strictly to distinguish between what I write and what someone else has written.
I'll do an internet search to check if bold is considered yelling or if you know where I can confirm that I'd appreciate it.
Jon,
You still didn't answer my initial question.
"Then applying the same standard, this blog isn't the place for you to speak negative(ly) about any of the rest of us, is it?"
And for the record, Steve Gaines' "house" is our house, too. He just doesn't care.
I'm not defending the general mindset at BL.com at all, but if you consider it such a badge of honor to be banned from there, why were you petitioning them as late as December 2006 to be reinstated?
I believe "concernedsbcer" had a question for you, the same question I and others have asked you several times. Specifically, can you tell us HOW we are to apply grace in calling sin sin? We're still eagerly awaiting. If you're not going to answer the questions, then please just stop.
Jon wrote:
"I submitted a mini message from when I spoke on this issue a while back. The passage was out of Colossians (I am preaching through Colossians right now and should be finished in a few weeks). The blog administrator is the one who will choose to publish it or not."
And I published it this morning. Go look in the previous thread which is where you submitted it.
From an internet etiquette site:
Try not to yell, this is where you either type in all capitals or use text editing to increase the font size and bold type of your message.
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Breakers/5257/Chatet.htm
According to this site I am not yelling. I am not using all caps, nor am I enlarging the type and making it bold.
If the blog administrator wishes for me to do differently, I would be happy to oblige.
Cakes said
Bellevue thought it could control the playbook by not providing such a forum, so it naturally established outside of it. It is as imperfect as those that contribute to it, and those that come here to trash it. Where's your contempt for the people who brung ya, eh?
They could have truly dealt with this injury to their church body in a more humble and open-hearted manner--they gots the real estate, a PA and folding chairs to facilitate it. But no, it was all about them and their blessed careers.
Piglet says:
Well stated (as usual).
My Dad was a pastor as was my grandfather. It's not like I don't see the other side - that blogs are a scary prospect for anyone in a position of authority.
But shouldn't this ust encourage these men to remain blameless? To play by the rules? Remain transparent? Allow the voice of the membership to be heard?
No church is perfect because they are composed of imperfect people, but the new GBC bylaws state that a petiton with only ONE HUNDRED SIGNATURES will precipitate a business meeting! Now most people would much rather go to a MEETING where something can be accomplished in an orderly manner than to BLOG! I'm glad SOME churches are open and HONEST enough to give us that opportunity.
"Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil..." John 3:19b
BBC - turn on the lights!!!!!!
Philip Yancey wrote: "Grace comes free of charge to people who do not deserve it and I am one of those people.” He also describes the best future of the church as being a “nourishing culture of grace“.
It’s common to believe in God’s grace yet be ungracious. It’s also common to preach grace, but not extend it. As people, we claim grace and forgiveness for ourselves, but we often demand performance from others.
Grace is in no way earned but it is freely given. We believe this for salvation but we need to come to know it for daily living.
Looking at the verses above, we notice God announces us as holy and beloved. He gives us a title, a descriptive name… “Holy and beloved.” Now we do not deserve this description, it is given to us by grace, freely.
When we received His grace we are called to put off:
Col. 3:8-9 (NKJV)
[8] But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. [9] Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
God never asks us to put off, give up, remove something without replacing it with something better. That better show up in our verses.
Col. 3:12-14 (NKJV) [12] Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; [13] bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. [14] But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.
Put on: Tender Mercies
Kindness
Humility
Meekness
Longsuffering
Bearing with one another.
Forgiving one another. There are two reasons to forgive others: First Whoever has a complaint against anyone. Someone offended you, spoken against you, hurt or disappointed you? Forgive them. This is Christianity 101.
Forgiveness is distinct from confrontation.
Confrontation may become necessary; sometimes it works, sometimes not. But forgiveness is always fundamental. And forgiveness isn’t the same as reconciliation. Reconciliation may or may not happen.
But forgiveness demonstrates that you’ve been freed by God’s grace.
That’s the second reason Paul gives us to forgive: If you’ve experienced God’s forgiveness, forgive like He did you: fully, freely, graciously. Period.
Then we come to verse 14, above all put on love.
This is where we have to get real and stop making excuses: the way other Christians act and relate doesn’t determine how I act and relate. When we know who God has made us to be, then our character can reflect Christ’s.
Don’t think I’m suggesting that grace should make us doormats, or the recipients of abuse by other Christians. Of course, there is the time to speak the Truth with love. To challenge believers who are hurtful to also walk with God and reflect His grace. To tell them to start letting Christ’s grace and character mark their habits of relating. To become authentic.
But, grace driven people mirror God’s grace.
** Put together with different sources from the bible, books in my library and internet resources.
Jon L. Estes said...
Piglet says:
NOW, can we move on to stopping the rapid descent of a great church down the toilet, please, and dispense with the NIT PICKING from Gaines' peers?
10:37 AM, June 26, 2007
1 - Is this up to me and Cory?
2 - Is asking for truth to be exhibited with grace, nitpicking?
Piglet says:
1. Yes, you are the two that are nitpicking lately. :)
2. Let me illustrate:
Say a fellow is standing in a parking lot and a car rolls onto his foot and parks there. The poor fellow is in pain and screaming for the driver to get off his foot - maybe even cursing.
Here you come along and start lecturing the victim on grace and the use of foul language, which may be a valuable lesson for him - if you'd tell the driver to get his 2 ton vehicle off the guy's foot first.
Now, I am striving to use as much grace as I can :), but would you please use your influence to get Gaines' 2 ton ego off of our collective foot?
Well, I see I missed a firestorm last night and and I wish I hadn't seen it today.
A lot of what what said by a couple of people were very offensive to me, as a preacher.
I don't have time now to address but I might will tonight.
Blessings to all.
Jon,
Around here all bold is yelling. If you feel the need for added emphasis my previous comments still remain in effect.
The perception still remains that you feel the need to make certain that we understand that you are emphatic in your comments.
Due to the amount of grief and lack of resolution to this conflict we find ourselves in, many here have become very sensitive to what seems to be an intrusion by outsiders that have no first-hand knowledge of both the issues and atmosphere at Bellevue.
What is needed here is clarity of thought and communication. If you have come here to verbally spank the members of this forum, do so and let God handle the results.
If you are here on the behalf of someone else, say so and make your intent and meaning clear.
When you beat around the bush and do not clearly define your thoughts and the words and phrases that represent them, others may become offended because you have not adequately represented your thoughts.
This is telling the truth in love, if what you have to say and the motive behind your expression is in fact out of love and called for scripturally.
Jon;
I might add one question for you:
Why are you spending so much time here?
New BBC Open Forum said...
Jon,
You still didn't answer my initial question.
"Then applying the same standard, this blog isn't the place for you to speak negative(ly) about any of the rest of us, is it?"
It is not my intent to be negative but to share a better way of truth and grace.
Would any person here who has chucked verbal spears at SG do the same if the person who has hurt you were in your own family? Would we call our family member names? Would we start a blog to let the whole world know how much we disagree or despise our family member? Would we demand our family member leave the house and never come back? Even if the family member refused to acknowledge their wrong?
I would hope not, I believe we would use grace to love that family member, to show that family member they are loved even in their wrong.
This family member may bring embarrassment to the family but we would not go out and do things that pile on that embarrassment.
For all those who post on this blog, what if SG's were your dad, would you treat him the way you are treating him? Would you start a blog to magnify the wrong to a world needing a message of hope.
What if it was discovered one of your family members did what PW did, would you give them this treatment? Would you call them a wolf?
BBC is a family, even with all its warts. SG is a part of that family, whether you want him to be or not.
feelingblue said...
Mr. Estes,
Other than to stop blogging and taking cheap shots at Steve Gaines and others who support what he has done to our church and church family, what else would you do - specifically - to bring the truth to light? I hope you would suggest a face to face meeting or even a church business meeting. Since those are apparently out of the question, what next? Please tell us what we should do next that would bring the truth to light without losing grace at the same time? I really want to know specifics, not what your father would do at his business. We are in a quandry to go along with your mixing grace with truth and need specifics to go along with the idea. Please help.
1:03 PM, June 25, 2007
Mr. Estes,
You still have not given me specifics. PLEASE provide specifics as to what you feel should be done next to deal with the current situation at BBC. I look forward to your answer.
Feeling Blue,
There are no specifics I can give you other than to follow God. I can't imagine God would lead anyone to write direct attacks on a public forum. Get in God's word as never before and don't do anything until He has spoken and you know it is Him because it lines up with the very Word of God.
A systematic study of the Word is necessary so not to find ourselves picking and choosing passages that can be used to compliment our thinking.
Get all the BBC bloggers together and have home bible studies without the issue of SG being brought up. Get together weekly, or daily and pray together for God's direction. Seek God for any wrong we may have committed and correct that wrong.
What if God led us to seek SG forgiveness for words we have typed? Could that be an opportunity to get an open door?
drbrunsen: Thank you Holy Spirit! Thank you Lord for using your servant Jon Estes words to illuminate my sin of self righteousness that I might repent of my contemptuous attitudes and love again."
That is very interesting since Mr. Estes has taught very little scriptural truth here. Hmmm...
For me, this has nothing to do with forgiveness, that is a given. It is about false teaching and the twisting of scripture and an orthopraxy that does not match orthodoxy.
Quite frankly, drbrunsen...all indicators point to you as a set up. Nice try, though.
I do not have time to read all the comments today but have skimmed a few...I see our blog pastor is quoting another modern day author ...Phillip Yancey. Here we go again....
Lin,
Please don't make me your blog pastor. If that ever happens I could end up being fired by these nice people. ;-)
Since Phil Yancey was brought up, it might behoove regulars to check out the laundry list of cautions and warnings regarding Phil Yanceys' teachings and practice.
PHIL YANCEY EXPOSE'
Jon said:
It is not my intent to be negative but to share a better way of truth and grace.
Piglet says:
Okay, so you would rather spend your time lecturing the guy with the mashed foot. Reckon he could use more grace than the driver? I can forgive the driver later - right now I just want him off my foot!
Jon said:
Would we start a blog to let the whole world know how much we disagree or despise our family member? Would we demand our family member leave the house and never come back? Even if the family member refused to acknowledge their wrong?
Piglet says:
These issues MUST be bought before the church - any suggestion?
We requested a membership list - denied. We requested a meeting place - denied. We have networked as much as we can and this has been our only way to get these issues to the church body.
Your probelm with the blog , in general, is showing...
I know, as a pastor, you are appalled that church business be aired publicly - just make sure you take care of your business in business meetings as you should.
Find a scripture that says we should bring the matter to the church and make sure no one overhears....
Gaines can stay - just not as pastor. He does not meet the qualifications.
Jon said:
This family member may bring embarrassment to the family but we would not go out and do things that pile on that embarrassment.
For all those who post on this blog, what if SG's were your dad, would you treat him the way you are treating him? Would you start a blog to magnify the wrong to a world needing a message of hope.
Piglet says:
Solving this sin problem is far more important than what may embarrass us. Embarrassment is an unfortunate side effect of sin that is not repented of but hidden - it will eventually come out and embarrass someone.
And what message of hope, sir? The world has enough of corrupt preachers and hypocritical church members. Let's show them we care about the truth of God's word.
Jesus came to save us from the SIN we are trying so hard to expose and do away with in our midst.
The Bible is full of rebukes toward corrupt religious leaders - should we rip those pages out so we exhibit more unity to the world?
Jon said:
What if it was discovered one of your family members did what PW did, would you give them this treatment? Would you call them a wolf?
BBC is a family, even with all its warts. SG is a part of that family, whether you want him to be or not.
Piglet says:
A wolf is a wolf. We judge the fruit that we see.
If Gaines is a believer, and part of the family, that is fine and he may repent and restore fellowship.
He does not have the qualifications to pastor and he has yet to repent. Matt. 18 has a lot to say about those who refuse to repent - that they be treated like a "heathen and a publican".
Jon wrote: For all those who post on this blog, what if SG's were your dad, would you treat him the way you are treating him? Would you start a blog to magnify the wrong to a world needing a message of hope."
Mr. Estes you are stuck on something that does not fit. If SG were my DAD...YES..ifit took a blog to get him out of a pulpit as a false teacher...falsely presenting scripture and using the Word for personal gain...YES.
It scares me that you extend so much cheap grace to false teachers instead of warning others.
Perhaps you do not think SG is a false teacher. Which scares me about you.
But I think Aslan has you pegged. You are purposely misrepresenting the situation here whichis this:
GAINES IS A FALSE TEACHER.
All you have to do is pick a few sermons and see what he is doing. Watch actions. It is real simple,sir.
By the way, being a 'conservative pastors means very little these days'. Could mean politically. Rick Warren called himself one for years. Or, it could be conservative as in focusing on one particular doctrine over another such as women's roles, etc. Quite frankly, it explains little these days.
How about being a 'sola scriptura' pastor. Our country is experiencing a shortage.
"What if God led us to seek SG forgiveness for words we have typed? Could that be an opportunity to get an open door?"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Um, no.
watchman said...
Since Phil Yancey was brought up, it might behoove regulars to check out the laundry list of cautions and warnings regarding Phil Yanceys' teachings and practice.
PHIL YANCEY EXPOSE'
11:41 AM, June 26, 2007
Phillip Yancey was one of Billy Grahams favorite evangelical authors.
Jon said:
Get in God's word as never before and don't do anything until He has spoken and you know it is Him because it lines up with the very Word of God.
Piglet says:
MUCH prayer has gone into our efforts. This was happening long before this blog appeared. As result MANY people were not aware of what had transpired - which I am sure would please any shady pastor.
If Martin Luther had had the internet would he have posted his thesis on the door? Maybe he would have had a website.
Whether or not you FEEL this is an appropriate forum is beside the point. These sins are not private - they are against the membership - some committed in private, some committed for all to see.
Jon said, "Phillip Yancey was one of Billy Grahams favorite evangelical authors."
Could you please send me the link that substantiates this fact?
Jon wrote:
"Phillip Yancey was one of Billy Grahams favorite evangelical authors."
And Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton were two of his favorite presidents. Your point?
"Phillip Yancey was one of Billy Grahams favorite evangelical authors. "
Mr Estes this pains me to write. It really does... but we have GOT to stop elevating man.
Billy Graham has been quoted more than once in the past few years saying that someone can get to heaven without knowing Jesus. I have personally seen an interview where he said this and it was also quoted in Newsweek.
Now, since I have a family member at an BGEA affiliated ministry, I checked this out. Yes, he does believe this.
Folks...please let us stop elevating man. Follow Christ.
Concernedsbcer
You have mail.
Thank goodness I know personally some honorable pastors who see the value of this blog (even with it's warts, Jon) and whose major concern is the apostacy we see at BBC and those that are stumbling as result.....
If you are reading, you know who you are and GOD BLESS YOU! :)
I will be away for at least 24 hours. Please hold back the billowing emotions of sadness.
Yet, I will pray for you and yours.
Jon wrote: What if it was discovered one of your family members did what PW did, would you give them this treatment? Would you call them a wolf?
BBC is a family, even with all its warts. SG is a part of that family, whether you want him to be or not. "
Mr. Estes, This is the last straw with me. Are you really this ignorant?
You must think me a monster because if I discovered a family member who did what PW did, I would lead the charge for conviction and prison. Why? Because of hate? NO-- because of Love.
You see, sir, putting them in prison does not mean we do not love them. maybe in your world it means a lack of grace.
We can pray for them, forgive them, etc. But they cannot be ministers of prayer and be allowed to roam the streets.
So, is SG a part of the 'family' as an elder? Or part of the family as a member of the Body?
Big difference. Clarify.
Even Jon cannot offer what would be the proper response to the situation at Bellevue, only that the blog is not it.
This forum emerged in the absence of one provided by "God's men" at Bellevue. It was wishful thinking by the leadership that they could control speech and the communications of that segment of the congregation that wouldn't cowtow.
Believe me, no forum or contingency that the truthseekers might have taken would please the self-grasping careerists. It is natural that, in the face of so much contempt for truth, transparency, accountability, and reconcilliation, that some kind of forum would manifest amongst those considered disposable by the careerists.
It's like damning the grass because it grows. If you think it is evil, then how about not becoming a regular.
Jon wrote:
"I will be away for at least 24 hours. Please hold back the billowing emotions of sadness."
I'll be gracefully counting the minutes.
cakes,
I like the new profile photo! Self portrait? :-)
Jon asked:
What if it was discovered one of your family members did what PW did, would you give them this treatment? Would you call them a wolf?
Reply: Oh, I would do soooo much more than call them a wolf.
NASS said
cakes,
I like the new profile photo! Self portrait? :-)
Piglet says:
LOL! Okay, PLEASE tell us the story behind this one! :D
I stole it from here:
www.badtoonrising.com/
Lin: Your 11;58 post made my point ahead of me making it!!! If I know something is wrong, it matters not who else believes it, I still know what scripture says and I stand with that.
Thanks.
gmommy said...
If Jon and Gaines are a by product of the theology being taught at the Baptist seminaries....
God HELP US ALL .....
and Please, Page Patterson,STOP firing women.
YOU NEED them to TEACH your students!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are only over your own wife not all women!
Piglet and Concernedsbcer....
I want to be more like yall....
Reply: The seminaries are not the ones to blame for Gaines...or Jon. Even if they are taught correctly, it doesn't mean they will rightly divide the Word. Like the old saying goes, " you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
Actually,Dr. Patterson is over all the people who work the SWBTS, both men and women. To make the statement that Dr. Patterson needs to stop firing women because "he needs them to teach the students"....didn't make any sense.
The female professor was a student of SWBTS before becoming a professor thereby will teach the same things the male professors teach. She is a product of SWBTS.
This also shows disrespect to all the Godly men who labor hard to instruct the God called men and women who attend SWBTS...or any other seminary.
No, I did not attend SWBTS. No, I am not a friend of Dr. Patterson. I know you were angry but it just didn't seem fair.
Blast away at me if you must but while I agree with most of what is said about Steve and the gang, I do disagree sometimes.
cakes wrote:
"I stole it from here:
www.badtoonrising.com/"
What? No porn? Why, cakes, we're having a good influence on you after all! :-)
But the Bible does say, "Thou shalt not steal." Perhaps "borrow" would have been a better choice of words.
Jon said, "I will be away for at least 24 hours. Please hold back the billowing emotions of sadness.
Yet, I will pray for you and yours."
Jon, we have only asked for clarification on some of your positions. Our frustration has been with the lack of scripture basis of some of your positions and your criticism of the truthseekers on the blog without offering new, untried, graceful and still scriptually strong solutions. We prefer not to beat on others just like we prefer not to be beaten. However, we will stand on truth regardless of who prefers not to hear said truth.
Cakes: After our conversation at the very competitive bowling tournament, I am somewhat relieved to hear your profile picture was not drawn by you.
;)
jtb wrote:
" I know you were angry but it just didn't seem fair."
Ask Sheri Klouda about fairness.
"Blast away at me if you must but while I agree with most of what is said about Steve and the gang, I do disagree sometimes."
That's okay. Not blasting you at all. We can disagree, although I'm not sure we even disagree about anything here. You just may have a softer spot in your heart for PP than some of the rest of us! And I say that gracefully. :-)
Nass said...
Ask Sheri Klouda about fairness.
Reply: I didn't say what happened to her was fair. It wasn't. Life isn't fair. God has taken note and will take care of her and her family. My concern was for the faithful professors who have nothing to do with the firing.
No, I don't have a soft spot for PP, but I do for the seminaries.
JTB: You make a good point. My kids are at a small liberal arts Christian college where the President is running amuck and the FANTASTIC professors are getting hung out to dry. I imagine it might be similar to what you are talking about.
jtb,
Thanks for clarifying.
concernedsbcer wrote:
"My kids are at a small liberal arts Christian college where the President is running amuck and the FANTASTIC professors are getting hung out to dry."
Reminds me a little of a certain church where the pastor is running amuck and the staff and members are getting hung out to dry. Amazing the influence one power-hungry man can have on an institution.
For those who aren't familiar with the story of Sheri Klouda, read this or just Google her name. Wade Burleson had some good commentary as well.
The results of the grace shown by Paige Patterson. He should be so proud!
johnthebaptist,
you have mail.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Dr. Bunsen, I presume?
Now, now, NASS ... you've already been told that pictures poking fun at people are eeeeeeeevil.
jtb wrote:Reply: I didn't say what happened to her was fair. It wasn't. Life isn't fair. God has taken note and will take care of her and her family. My concern was for the faithful professors who have nothing to do with the firing."
JTB: This is NOT about life is not fair. This is about intergrity. Some professors spoke out and some didn't. many were afraid to disagree with the powerful. You have seen it before.
The 'trustees' hired Klouda before Patterson came. Patterson told her that her job was safe... only to change his mind a year later and then just stop scheduling her classes...in 2006. She was teaching Hebrew.
Does Patterson have to 'sin' to follow his interpretation of scripture?
And God IS helping her through some Baptist ministers and laity who are collecting funds. Especially since her health insurance was affected and her husband has serious heart problems. She is the main breadwinner because of his condition.
Read about her situation. What he did was dirty dealing. I will leave off all the other questionable activities of Patterson's at the seminary such as his personal 501c3 Patmos Evangelistic Ministry being run from the President's mansion or the taxidermy bills sent to the seminary to pay.
But, I understand that many will think I am in sin for even pointing this out. Thank God for men like Wade Burleson. I do not even agree with Wade on many doctrinal points but find his ACTIONS to be more scriptural than many in Christendom who follow powerful men. He is a man of courage and integrity and last I checked his little old blog raised 7,000 for Dr. Klouda.
lin said....
JTB: This is NOT about life is not fair. This is about intergrity. Some professors spoke out and some didn't. many were afraid to disagree with the powerful. You have seen it before.
Reply: Lin, when a man shows lack of integrity, his judgement is off center. People around that man will more than likely be affected. Fair or unfair, they will be affected. From what I have read, from Burleson's account and others, she was treated UNFAIRLY. I feel sorry for her and wish I could help her out but I can't.
PP can't do much without the approval of the trustees and yet not much has been said about them.
PP believes that women shouldn't teach men, right or wrong, that is what he believes. If he wanted to get rid of her, he should have given her a good severence package with benefits. I believe that is the least he should have done.
This stuff happens to preachers all the time. When a deacon or member get upset(I am talking about unjustly upset) with the preacher, he gets the boot. Little concern that he is the sole breadwinner for the family. That is life as we know it. Unfair. But God is sufficient to sustain us when the unfair things of life happen. Sins of others affects us all.
As far as the other things you say that PP is guilty of, I know nothing about those. I can't comment on hersay(no offense).
The "mansion" is seminary property and all presidents live in the presidents house.
JTB: I agree with all that you have said...about pastors. Perhaps they should learn how to negotiate a hiring packages from Gaines.
It is curious as to why SWBTS would have allowed her to obtain a doctorate in Hebrew studies in the first place.
What was really a wake up call for me was to learn how much money the seminaries receive from the CP program and local churches through the SBC. Wow.
I have no problem with the president living in the designated mansion. What I have a challenge with is running a personal 501c3 from it that has nothing to do with seminary business. If my memory is correct, the 990 listed 45,000 in donations and the outlay listed thousands to pay for 'travel' and to his son for 'research' on a book that has yet to be written.
Another curious factor is that many are trying to find out who the trustees of SWBTS are!
Why has ministry become a path to wealth? Why has ministry become a business with building programs, leadership workshops, book writing, speaking engagments, etc. Are we elevating man too much?
Let us shine some light in the darkest corners. Light is the best disinfectant.
lin said....
Why has ministry become a path to wealth? Why has ministry become a business with building programs, leadership workshops, book writing, speaking engagments, etc. Are we elevating man too much?
Reply: I wonder that too. I can't seem to find that path. Must have a secret entrance. : )
It grieves me to see Pastors as CEO's. I understand they say the books, speaking engagements, ect expand their ministry but at what cost? I don't think it is always of God just because the door opens. I think Satan uses it opportunity to destract the preacher from God's work.
I think God's men aught to be spending the most of their time studying and sheparding the flock God has given them. Many mega church pastors are caught up in a bunch of "junk" in God's name.
Book writing has it's place but it isn't near the top of the to do list for Pastors.
Keep the main thing the main thing.
I would like to add to what Jon said:
If SG was your boss, would you call him a wolf?
If SG was your cell mate, would you treat him the same.
If SG was a school principal, would the "sin of the heart, not of the head" justification fly?
What if SG was a woman, would he finally be kicked out then? Pathetically, probably so.
Some ironies are priceless.
Anytime people use coded language and hyperbole, cornering the market on "truth and grace," or other such airy blather, that's when you should defer to your built-in donkey-do detector. These folks don't have much to offer but displeasure and sanctimony, even kindly sometimes.
But look for the substance of their comments, and they are all but lost to a string of amorphous pieties, exhortations and rebukes--at least there is an avenue for such at NBBCOF (even if it's often inane). Over at Bellevue, you agree or shut-up and get out. And the Stepford brides over there blowing off the entire undermining of their church is nothing more than timidity and cowardice in the place where the brave and honorable should be taking the initiative to bring about authentic accountability and reconcilliation for the entire body.
Otherwise, glossing over and exterminating dissent may assuage the short term impact on careers, but this will hang like an albatross around Bellevue's neck, and she will hobble along as a mere ghost of herself until she eventually croaks.
If SG was my family member, I would ask him to not shame the family anymore, step down as a "minister," and to seek employment for which he is qualified. I just saw that Autozone needs clerks.
It seems as the love of power, the love of money, the love of influence are sapping the spiritual strength of our Churches across America.
Look what is happening at many of our Churches....
Too much sleep.
Too much food and drink.
Too much music.
Too much conversation with the world.
Too much preaching and hearing.
And, so many fellowships:
Too little fasting and Prayer.
Too little studing the Bible.
Too little self-denial and self-examination.
And we wonder why and where the "power of God" is!
"Too much conversation with the world."
Hey, wait a minute...
John the Baptist: Your 4:48 post, along with Lin's post, is right on. Pastors, especially of mega's, have become superstars instead of servants. That's a problem, imho.
Cakes said...
And the Stepford brides over there ...
Or is that Stepford Sheep??
That sheep looks as though it is about to become toast.
drbunsen said,
I can say this…. I have the Holy Spirit to thank for some of Jon E’s words here tonight.
oc says: Are you sure it's the Holy Spirit? If so, maybe God does work in mysterious ways.
drbunsen says:
Pray for me and anyone else who finds themselves some kind of prisoner to their angry thoughts. Truth has set me free. By the way OC, you didn’t hurt any of my feelings because I don’t know you.
oc says:
It was not my intention to hurt you at all. But it's not about feelings, it's about truth. You say that the truth has set you free? Well make sure you are following the Truth Giver, and not a feel good jon estes purposeless dribble life spewer.
Maybe you should quit living your Christian walk on feelings, and maybe walk by faith and truth.
Just a suggestion by one who fails miserably everyday. But at least I know it.
oc.
junk,
Oooh, now that's eeeeeeeevil!
As for the ventriloquist photo someone mentioned, I've never posted a photo that was intended to be mean-spirited, and I always carefully consider my words (and my photos) before posting them. You can't please all the people all the time... I guess.
jon estes says to me,
So you have nothing to back up your accusation?
I forgive you, regardless.
oc says:
Hmmm. Why is it you don't feel the need to really answer questions directed at you? Is it arrogance, or what? You have answered nobody's, mine, concernedsbcers, 25+ or lin's questions, It seems you conveniently ignore questions that demand that you show who you really are. Keep runnin'.
By the way, I neither covet nor need your forgiveness. I just called you out. You are what you are. It will show soon enough.
I think we are seeing a law of liberalism coming to fruition in our churches.
Liberalism always generates the exact opposite of its stated intent.
The seeker senstive, PDL movesments as well as the covering up of the PW Scandal are all things liberals would do. The stated intent was to draw people into church. But instead its doing the opposite. It is running people away from church. Especially because of the hypocrasy.
Cakes said beautifully
...... blowing off the entire undermining of their church is
nothing more than timidity and
cowardice in the place where the
brave and honorable should be taking the initiative to bring about authentic accountability
and reconcilliation for the entire body.
If SG was my family member, I would ask him to not shame the family anymore, step down as a "minister," ........
and I can add nothing else.
"I think we are seeing a law of liberalism coming to fruition in our churches."
And this is the great paradox of our time. "Politically" conservative pastors practising seeker-friendly theology complete with easy believism and cheap grace.
Go figure.
jon estes says:
A systematic study of the Word is necessary so not to find ourselves picking and choosing passages that can be used to compliment our thinking.
oc says: Huh? This is rich, coming from the 'no wrath,only grace,(but not for sheep) purposeless dribble life' estes.
estes again:
I can't imagine God would lead anyone to write direct attacks on a public forum.
oc says:
Uh,Martin Luther. And, maybe you can't imagine it because you ain't God, bubba! Do you really think that you think God's thoughts? 'Your thoughts are not My thoughts'? Read the Bible, not Warren.
oc.
Blog friends,
From the bottom of my evil heart,
I ask your forgiveness for the way I allowed my anger to dominate my communication yesterday.
I apologize to the brave and honorable truth seekers
and to the ministers called by God who give sacrificially of themselves to their flocks.
I love you and respect you all. I am ashamed that I was insensitive and thoughtless to how my words and emotions would hurt the innocent.
GMommy: I think you know those of us who blog well enough to know that we have infinite capacity to forgive those who truly are sorry.
We love you. :)
Gmommy,
we admire your passion for the truth.
Just sayin'.
oc.
gmommy,
Don't sweat it. I would have probably responded the same way.
gmommy, no problemo. Hey, I bilingual. : )
Does anyone remember me?
I've missed ya'll!
Oh, I just can't leave this alone.
jon estes says:
I can't imagine God would lead anyone to write direct attacks on a public forum. Get in God's word as never before and don't do anything until He has spoken and you know it is Him because it lines up with the very Word of God.
A systematic study of the Word is necessary so not to find ourselves picking and choosing passages that can be used to compliment our thinking.
oc says:
Oh thank you estes. You have summed up the intentions,procedures and purpose of this blog and the bloggers who post here. You are wrong of course about your assessment of whether or not directly attacking sin in a public forum is godly. It was already tried in private, but arrogance prevailed. But you ignore that, conveniently.
you said:
Get in God's word as never before and don't do anything until He has spoken and you know it is Him because it lines up with the very Word of God.
oc says:
Yep, that's what they did alright and this is what you get. Yet you are fighting against it. Who is confused?
you again:
A systematic study of the Word is necessary so not to find ourselves picking and choosing passages that can be used to compliment our thinking.
oc says:
Uh huh. And? That has been the procedure here from day one. But now in your sanctimonious tone you now come here to tell the disciples that they have studied in error and you have come to correct us. A wee arrogant, don't ya think?
You have accidently laid out the exact procedure and purpose of this blog, therefore undermining your purpose of undermining it.
Ain't it great how God works?
Just sayin.
oc.
AMY!!!! Where have you been????
Concerned,
This summer it's not so easy to find time to get to the computer with my kids home. We have been traveling some too.
I took a field trip today with a friend (former BBC member) who needed to go by BBC Bookstore and she gave me a tour of the place. I saw Donna's case!
I guess oc isn't speaking to me.....
gmommy,
God Bless you. As a survivor of abuse I know how hard it is for you and some others who have lived through this sort of thing only to be told you are the sinner for pointing out the obvious. Both you and SOTL have lived through so much! (And others here...)
After suffering so much, and by the Grace of God, being delivered you are told to 'move on' when you see abuse being treated so cavalierly by elders who should know scripture better than you!
There is almost a frantic need from you and the others to protect children...any child from this heinous crime.
I find it ironic that the 'worldly' systems understand this better than our many of our churches. I also understand that to move past the abuse you had to do a lot of forgiving. But we have those who do not understand that forgiveness does not mean one can stay in an elder position.
Check this out:
1 Timothy
1The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
Notice verse 7! ….Must be well though of by outsiders so that he may not fall into disgrace into a snare of the devil. (And to think, we are talking about a ‘minister of prayer’ that Gaines felt could stay on the job!)
Dare I even mention 1 Corinthians 5?
Yet, Gaines did not see the necessity to fire PW upon finding out the truth. People have tried to make many excuses for why that is so far but none of them line up with scripture. Gaines owns a bible, just like I do. Who can trust his decisions now? Who can trust his knowledge of scripture?
(I will stay away from the topic of his confusing sermons on this comment)
Now, with all that has taken place including the PW incident, fences, finances, treatment of the victim, etc., Gaines does not qualify as an elder.
Yet, there are those who say you are in sin for pointing this out. I can understand where your frustration would get the best of you and I thank you for apologizing... even so.
See, Jon and others can argue with us all they want, but can they re-interpret scripture to fit their premise? Perhaps they think, like Gaines, that 1 Timothy are merely ‘guidelines’ not qualifications.
Purity of the church is at stake. There are plenty of godly men out there who can fit the qualifications of an elder. But you have never heard of them.
What is up with these signs? I do not see a problem with this. Our church has a billboard in front of it and every week their is a complete thought lifted out of a verse of Scripture. I wonder if you guys are just digging for something to complain about.
I have only read on this site a few times over the past month but I have drawn a conclusion and your statements have made me feel sorry for Bellevue's pastor.
My question would be to you guys, how many of you committed immorality before? I could make a guess and if those would confess their past sins I doubt very seriously that any would be left to put down a pastor for showing a man grace. You guys best think about your judging.
Just call me the lonestar but I could never talk about any pastor the way that you guys do.
Hi Amy! Missed you!
oc
That's better!
From my email copy of PreachingNow...(newsletter on preaching)
From time to time we hear about churches or other Christian organizations that have lost most of their money because they got caught up in a scheme that would supposedly return lots more money than more conservative investments. If there’s any gift church leaders need to have these days, it’s the gift of discernment.
In a recent Friday Evenings newsletter, Tom Barnard wrote: “God expects us to exercise wisdom when it comes to things that can harm us. ‘Prudent’ is the word. It means being careful or cautious. It suggests that something (or someone) is off-base, wrong, or simply ridiculous. When I was a teenager, a stranger found our church youth group and wanted to join. No one knew him, but he had a story. He said his name was Lefty Frizzell, and that he was a country and western star. I didn’t know anything about C/W music, but I could tell a phony when one showed up at church.
“Our youth group had a few naïve ones on board, and they took up for the guy. Someone asked him what songs he had written, and he was quick to name a few that sounded authentic. A fan club was in the making. And then someone asked the right question: ‘Where is your guitar?’ His lame excuse didn’t satisfy. Someone else asked, ‘Why don’t you sing one of your songs for us?’ That did it. He couldn’t sing. His cover was blown.
“In this year of political malaise there will be many people who step forward with an appeal wanting our support. It’s time to be prudent. It’s time to ask the right questions. If the answers we get are too good to be true, they probably are.”
Michael Duduit, Editor
____________________________
I thought this was a very good article that paralelled our situation somewhat. What if SG, DC, deacons had decernment? What a different story that would have been written about BBC today. This ol' internet would be less 3 or 4 blogs. Bellevue would be on mission, and growing again.
DC wouldn't be on staff because you don't call a lay man away from a business, give him a job at church, then ordain him. <--- I threw in at no charge.
I am thankful for those who have decernment. It is because of the decernment that they have, this blog exists.
gmommy,
No apology is necessary, but here is a little something for you. :-)
Hi, amy! Welcome back! Did you see the tiaras and read the poem?
Nass: Just a continuation of more of the same.......brand new bloggers appearing, without knowing the history, and telling us what we should be thinking and doing.
Friends....comments and scripture should be taken in CONTEXT.
First, welcome to the Blog Lonestar!
I think you can still show someone grace, and protect the children that God has entrusted your church with. Do you believe it was OK for that pastors sin to be swept under the rug, so to speak, than doing what biblically was the correct thing to do.
Lonestar, howdy!
Don't feel sorry for SG. He feels sorry enough for himself.
Do you know the whole story?
If you don't, get up to speed quickly because we have a pastor who has disqualified himself from ministry yet feels like he is the victim.
Have you ever been brow beaten by your pastor? Has your pastor taken scripture out of context to make his personal objectives carry weight?
Find out the whole story before you post your sympathetic remarks for the pastor.
Just giving you a heads up.
OH BOY, here we go again...
lonestar wrote:
What is up with these signs? I do not see a problem with this. Our church has a billboard in front of it and every week their is a complete thought lifted out of a verse of Scripture."
Friend, have you read each of these verses not only in totality but in context? Read the entire book they come from and get back to us.
lonestar: "My question would be to you guys, how many of you committed immorality before? I could make a guess and if those would confess their past sins I doubt very seriously that any would be left to put down a pastor for showing a man grace. You guys best think about your judging."
This is called the "Bill Clinton" arguement. One has to ignore lots of scripture to come to this conclusion about an elder. And since when is it 'Grace' to keep an elder that is not above reproach. Oh sure, the sinning elder can repent and stay in the Body...but teach? Oversee? Read 1 Timothy again...slowly this time.
lonestar wrote: "Just call me the lonestar but I could never talk about any pastor the way that you guys do."
Why? They are a weak and sinful earthly priest just like me and you.
Lonestar, you don't happen to know Jon Estes and Dr. Brunsen, do you?
JTB, Thanks for the insightful article. Lefty Frizzell? Who woulda thunk it?
Lin said...
JTB, Thanks for the insightful article. Lefty Frizzell? Who woulda thunk it?
reply: yea, I thought that was a goofy name for a country star.
Now if he said that he was a pitcher for a baseball team....he might have gotten away with it. : )
Nass,
Yes, I saw it all. That dress is really a lot bigger in real life( it looks like a doll's dress on the blog) and it was that dress Donna was wearing in the portrait behind it.
What really surprised me was how sad I felt looking at that stuff. Really sad. She was, and I am sure still is, very pretty, however that seems to be her only accomplishment. Except for school diplomas, and some photos of her family, that was all there was-cheerleading, and beauty honors. Even that love poem that Steve wrote was titled "My beauty queen" or somthing like that. I truly hope she knows the sum of her life is so much more than just the beauty pagents she won 20+ years ago. It made me sad to think that how she looked was really the only thing she wanted people to know about her.
Just call me the lonestar but I could never talk about any pastor the way that you guys do.
oc says: Oh please don't tell me that you come from Texas.
If your pastor 'misbehaved' (ie sinned his butt off) like this pastor, you would applaud? If so, you ain't from Texas.
Just to lighten things up a bit....
From the vast wisdom of Larry the cable guy . . .
1. A day without sunshine is like night.
2. On the other hand, you have different fingers.
3. 42.7 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.
4. 99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
5. Remember, half the people you know are below average.
6. He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
7. Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.
8. The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse
gets the cheese in the trap.
9. A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.
10. How many of you believe in psycho-kinesis? Raise my hand.
11. When everything is coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.
12. Why do psychics have to ask you for your name?
13. Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
JTB: LOL...Thanks!
:)
JTB....
GIT-R-DONE! :)
JTB: Just for Grins:
How many Charismatics does it take to change a light bulb?
Only one since his/her hands are in the air anyway.
-Or-
Five. One to change the bulb and four to bind the spirit of darkness in the room.
How many Calvinists does it take to change a light bulb?
None. God has predestined when the lights will be on.
-Or-
Calvinists do not change light bulbs. They simply read out the instructions and pray the light bulb will decide to change itself.
How many neo-evangelicals does it take to change a light bulb?
No one knows. They can't tell the difference between light and darkness.
How many Pentecostals does it take to change a light bulb?
Ten. One to change the bulb and nine to pray against the spirit of darkness.
How many TV evangelists does it take to change a light bulb?
One. But for the message of light to continue, send in your donation today.
How many fundamentalists or independent Baptists does it take to change a light bulb?
Only one because any more would be compromise and ecumenical standards of light would slip.
How many Emergents does it take to change a light bulb?
At least ten, as they need to hold a conversation on whether or not the light bulb exists. Even if they can agree upon the existence of the light bulb, they still may not change it to keep from alienating those who might use other forms of light.
How many Anglicans or Catholics does it take to change a light bulb?
None. They always use candles.
How many Episcopalians does it take to change a light bulb?
Ten. One to call the electrician, and nine to say how much they liked the old one better.
-Or-
Four. One to change the bulb. One to bless the elements. One to pour the sherry. And one to offer a toast to the old light bulb.
How many Baptists does it take to change a light bulb?
At least 15. One to change the light bulb, and three committees to approve the change and decide who brings the potato salad.
How many Southern Baptists does it take to change a light bulb?
About 16,000,000. However, they are badly divided over whether changing the bulb is a fundamental need or not.
How many Presbyterians does it take to change a light bulb?
None. Lights will go on and off at predestined times.
How many United Methodists does it take to change a light bulb?
We choose not to make a statement either in favor of or against the need for a light bulb. However, if in your own journey, you have found that a light bulb works for you, that is fine. You are invited to write a poem or compose a modern dance about your personal relationship to your light bulb and present it next month at our annual light bulb Sunday service, in which we will explore a number of light bulb traditions, including incandescent, fluorescent, three-way, long-lived, and tinted; all of which are equally valid paths to luminescence.
lindon: You rock!
What did the Buddhist say to the hotdog vendor?
Make me one with everything.
you might be a Baptist if: your necktie ends at your bellybutton.
you might be a Baptist if: you've ever taken up an offerning in a KFC bucket.
you might be a Baptist if: you believe chicken is the gospel bird.
you might be a Baptist if: you've heard someone say "amen" in church and turned around to see who the visitor was.
Q. How many Warrenites does it take to change a light bulb?
A. None ... they prefer being in the dark.
Buuuuuwaaaaaaahaaaaaahahahaaaaaa!
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