In an attempt to illustrate how Bellevue has changed, can you describe the atmosphere at Bellevue when you first joined (if you can remember that long ago!) versus how it is now or how it was before you left? Did you ever "sense" anything wasn't quite right but couldn't put your finger on it?Thanks to "lynn" for this topic idea.
604 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 604 Newer› Newest»They preach and sing and take over the whole show and even tell you when to say AMEN and tell OTHER, TO KEEP QUIET BECAUSE THEY SAY AMEN WHEN SG DOESN'T GIVE THEM PERMISSION TO SAY AMEN!
That's the tip of how things have changed for me at Bellevue. For me it has Ichabod on the lentil.
11:56 AM, May 27, 2007
-------------
Rod,
Wow! You nailed it! Agree with the entire post. My thoughts exactly.
Why can't others see it? )-:
Do any of you read Christian fiction? I am in the middle of the best book I have read in a long time -- the Last Sin Eater by Francine Rivers. Though published in 1998, the book has recently received renewed attention. A video of the story was recently released. The story is from the point of view of a nine year old girl plagued by guilt and emotionally rejected by her grieving mother. It takes place in remote Appalachia, where the old world custom of 'sin eaters', carried over by immigrants from Scotland and Wales, was still practiced. This is a MUST READ.
Proverbs 26:4 "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him."
WatchingHISstory said...
The secrets of the pedophile's heart was made manifest to SG.
I Cor 14:25
Watching...BBC is not a Catholic church & cofessing sins to the "pastor" doesn't make everything better.
The church & the government has a set standard of rules regarding pedophiles and other sins. It isn't up to Steve to decide that molesting kids is "under the blood" the let PW keep working in the ministry. PW is disqualified from ministry positions. Steve is too. Many deacons need to be removed & not allowed to be deacons no more.
You take scripture out of context just like you idol Steve.
Shame on you.
ima said
So in reality what these church growthers really want is uniformity, instead of unity. Is that what you are saying?
Piglet says:
Well, it seems so, doesn't it?
The point was that Jesus wants us to be one. But these days when you talk about unity, you have to qualify the statement because there is so much of the counterfeit around...Hitler's Germany was unified (another one for you MB :) and Miss Billie!)
Dear Watching: Let me correct myself. A few weeks ago I said you were an idiot. And that got posted all over Mike Bratton's blog with delight to some there.Well they are going to have a field day with this one then.
Let me make the correction. You are an insane idiot. How dare you to suggest that it was God's wrath that myself or any other victims were abused. It is good you are not standing in front of me right now. How dare you.
As I said before it is very clear to me why you are not a pastor. I just regret you use this blog to spew your twisted theology.
Mr. Page you are in need of serious help. Please get it but stop with your insane idiotic explanations as to pehophilia which you know not one thing about.
David Brown
WatchingHISstory said...
"The secrets of the pedophile's heart was made manifest to SG."
Perhaps SG just recognized the secret sin of another that could have very well been his own.
powermommy
Loved the tidbit about your son wanting to get himself a margin! So cute!
32years
I'll NEVER forget the Sunday nights Dr. R would end the service that way. It was like getting a hug from daddy - just made you feel warm all over. Fond memories. :)
churchmouse
Re: The Sin Eater
I've heard that about this movie/book. Thanks for reminding me.
Ted Dekker writes some good suspense/mystery novels. THREE was excellent if you like a twist ending.
Most of his stuff is purely entertaining. THREE has some spiritual lessons there but is mainly just a fun read.
WHS,
GET HELP NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Piglet...
Yes...the old Hegelian Dialectic that Hitler used. Thanks...
Ima
WHS
Whaaaat?
No, don't explain.
NAAAAAASSSSSSS! WHS is bothering us.....
WH: I believe there has to be some repentence there.....and Jesus' blood does not negate consequences. You seem to have difficulty remembering this.
And by the way, David Brown is allowed to have a typo if PW can be covered in the blood, don't you think? You knew what he was typing....you just were being...well, obnoxious. Don't think Jesus wants you to be that way, do you?
ima said
Piglet...
Yes...the old Hegelian Dialectic that Hitler used. Thanks...
Ima
Piglet says:
Think we'll make the Bratton blog with that? I always feel like I'm auditioning for "Misquote of the Week"......
Charlie, if you're at GBC, why haven't I met you yet?
Thanks, concernedsbcer, you tell WHS to play nice.
Yes, sir...you are being obnoxious. You reread this thread. It's been fun and nostalgic and bittersweet....until you. You are wrong on this issue.
Piglet and Ima: Hey, that's a badge of honor! How many times have you been misquoted on a blog full of......well......you know.
;)
Say goodnight, WHS.
WatchingHISstory said...
pdude
The secrets of the pedophile's heart were exposed after SG became pastor and not before.
According to I Cor 14:25 the Holy Spirit played a role in it even though SG mis-handled it. The Holy Spirit still operates at Bellevue dosen't he?
...the blood of Christ still covers sins, even those we don't want him to cover!!
Reply: what does confessing to Steve after he was pastor have to do with it? We confess to God who forgives. We confess to the church to make right with the church. Molesting a child then talking it over with the pastor like it wasn't a big deal doesn't cut it.
You wouldn't notice, but the Holy Spirit is quinched a great deal @ Bellevue, through the sins of the pastor and some staff and deacons.
You obsession with evil being the will of God shows you are biblically inmature. You are misapply scripture again. You seem to do that a lot.
The blood of Christ covers sins when true repentence comes from the sinner toward God, 1 John 1:9. However, confessing the molesting of your son to Steve then Steve decides that it was no big deal, well something is wrong about that. God may have forgiven him but he also has qualifications for his ministers which have been violated. There are consequences to sin eventhough there was forgiveness.
I can't finish what I want to say because I don't have time...I have to build a lego house with my son.
You need help.
Charlie
Until I meet you, in my mind you will always look just like Charlie Rich - wasn't he called the Silver FOX?
concernedsbcer
I don't know if I've been quoted lately. I don't go over there because the are heffalumps....
(besides, I get all mad and then I'm frustrated because you can't make a mad face with the keyboard..)
Piglet: There are also Woozles...be careful.
RE: WHS,
Proverbs 26:4 "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." (KJV)
OR, as they say in secular speak, "DON"T FEED THE TROLL"!!!!!!
Charlie: Great minds......
Piglet,
I have read all of Ted Dekker's books...pass the mustard please. =)
Be sure and try the Sin Eater, and have some Kleenex handy.
Piglet said...
Charlie
Until I meet you, in my mind you will always look just like Charlie Rich - wasn't he called the Silver FOX?
REPLY:
Thanx for the compliment. I physically fit the description.
Piglet...
Naw...I don't think so.
Ima
PS...seems like they did call him the silver fox. Whatever happened to him...
RE: WHS,
Proverbs 26:4 "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." (KJV)
OR, as they say in secular speak, "DON"T FEED THE TROLL"!!!!!!
Piglet...
Maybe the reason you don't see Charlie Fox at GBC is because he is 'behind closed doors'.....
:)
IMA said....PS...seems like they did call him the silver fox. Whatever happened to him...
REPLY:
He died July 25, 1995.
I was happy when Steve Gaines first came to Bellevue. I was a little uncomfortable when he would break into song in the middle of a sermon, but...oh,well.
Then someone told me about what happened to Jim Whitmire. I was skeptical at first.
The stories kept coming. They were unrelenting. This was before the website or the blog existed. I started to feel burdened and began to pray about that. I asked God to help me understand what was happening.
One day, soon after I started praying for answers, a neighbor asked to come over for coffee. We don't visit that way very often. We visited for a couple of hours and I mentioned to her (she was a former Bellevue member) that I was troubled about church and told her some of what I was hearing. She said that sounded like what had happened to a church she had attended that had become "one of those Warren churches." I didn't know what she was talking about.
As soon as my friend left, I Googled Rick Warren. What I read made my hair stand on end.
That afternoon, another neighbor came over to thank me for pet sitting while he was out of town. He had been to a church growth conference. We had quite an emotional discussion.
In April, eight months after Steve Gaines arrived at BBC, I started downloading information from the internet and handing it out to friends -- information about the Purpose Driven Church and Rick Warren's Pastor's Toolbox.
WatchingHISstory said...
off-line. . .sorry charlie
REPLY:
THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!!!!!
churchmouse said...
In April, I started downloading information from the internet and handing it out to friends -- information about the Purpose Driven Church and Rick Warren's Pastor's Toolbox.
REPLY:
mouse, you ain't the only one. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT. IMA can also give you an ear full!!!!
imaresistor said...
Piglet...
Maybe the reason you don't see Charlie Fox at GBC is because he is 'behind closed doors'.....
:)
REPLY:
ROFL
Watching His Story, do you consider yourself to be a Christian?
If you do, do you attend any church? And, if you do, what type might that be?
Just curious as to where you might be coming from.
Rod Almondmartanti said...
Watching His Story, do you consider yourself to be a Christian?
If you do, do you attend any church? And, if you do, what type might that be?
Just curious as to where you might be coming from.
REPLY:
I believe he is offline for now. He claims to be a former Pentecostal preacher, but now attends C'ville Baptist.
Charlie Fox said:
mouse, you ain't the only one. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT. IMA can also give you an ear full!!!!
Reply
It is good to be among friends !!!
Thanks Charlie. I guess that X penticostal explains it all. Maybe he was slain in the spirit one to many times.
Charlie Fox said, "He died July 25, 1995."
You gotta be kidding me! He has been dead twelve years and I didn't know it? No wonder I've heard nothing out of this one. What happened to him?
imaresistor said...
Charlie Fox said, "He died July 25, 1995."
You gotta be kidding me! He has been dead twelve years and I didn't know it? No wonder I've heard nothing out of this one. What happened to him?
REPLY: He died of a blood clot in his lung. He was 62.
Rod Almondmartanti said...
Thanks Charlie. I guess that X penticostal explains it all. Maybe he was slain in the spirit one to many times.
REPLY:
He is definitely a cup and saucer short of a full place setting!!!
Churchmouse: I was part of a Warren split almost 10 years ago. It's bad stuff. Once you see it, you are always on guard.
WatchingHISstory said...
Not only will God allow a child to be hurt, he will take pleasure in that hurt. "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief. . . " Isaiah 53:10
Psalms 22 describes the awful death he will take pleasure in.
So don't think for a minute that God won't use a pedophile to execute his wrath.
Lynn's Response:
NASS, My apologizes, but I have to say this.
Watching, the only words that describe you on this blog is a barking moonbat! It doesn't matter what your problems were with Dr. Rogers, but your take is NOT BIBLICAL! Think about it....when God asked Abraham to offer Issac as a Sacrifice, God had no intention to actually use the harm of children to further his plans. Thats why he provided Abraham the ram!
Not to mention, look at Mark 10:13-15.
" 13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."
Why, would God and Jesus value children so much that he wants us to become like little children if he would use harming children to further his plan. I'm sorry watching, but you seriously need MAJOR psychological help.
concernedSBCer said...
Churchmouse: I was part of a Warren split almost 10 years ago. It's bad stuff. Once you see it, you are always on guard.
REPLY:
I consider Rick Warren to be the MOST DANGEROUS person in religion today. jmho
It is obvious that he (WHS) isn't wired right, but it is hard to tell if he is just "crazy-making" to try and disrupt the blog, or just a blind follower of the blind.
In either case, I wonder what any of this has to do with him? And why he delights in making disturbances that are outside of his abilities. Just hard to figure some people out and what sort of a motive they have.
Lynn The Recycled Whammy said...
I'm sorry watching, but you seriously need MAJOR psychological help.
REPLY:
AMEN, AMEN & AMEN!!!!!
Churchmouse said
Piglet,
I have read all of Ted Dekker's books...pass the mustard please. =)
Piglet says:
Mustard? I haven't read them all so help me out here - unless it is going to make me look stupid. If so, just email me. :)
Wasn't that twist ending in THREE just GREAT?? My sister read it and called me as SOON as she got it.
I'll definitely read Sin Eater.
Charlie,
Okay, so I just need to go up to every guy that looks like Charlie Rich and ask "Are you Charlie?"
Is that why you chose your blog name?
Ima
"Behind closed doors.." LOL
Ciao, ya'll. That's southern Italian.
Charlie,
Okay, so I just need to go up to every guy that looks like Charlie Rich and ask "Are you Charlie?"
Is that why you chose your blog name?
REPLY:
No, I have been Charlie Fox for many, many, many years.
concernedsbcer said
Churchmouse: I was part of a Warren split almost 10 years ago. It's bad stuff. Once you see it, you are always on guard.
Piglet says:
I've started calling it the PD virus. Wish we had a blood test to administer to all candidates for preaching positions.
I'll be watching for symptoms no matter who they (GBC)get.
Charlie said
No, I have been Charlie Fox for many, many, many years.
Piglet says:
So this is your REAL name or was it a "CB handle".....
"I consider Rick Warren to be the MOST DANGEROUS person in religion today. jmho"
The latest on Warren:
He is teaming up with the Mormons to teach them PDL methods to grow their church. (You have heard of them and their Angel Moroni and the secret scroll buried in upstate NY?)
Kay Warren is teaming up with Angelina Jolie on some kind of kid charity thing. but according to the press release, they are not actually going to 'do anything', they are just going to 'raise awareness' of the problem. (oy vey)
So, what happened to Christians being a particular people...set apart from the world in it but not OF it?
First this professing Christian pastor helped the Jews with 'temple growth' methods teaching them PDL now he is helping Mormans grow their church? Can you say 'one world religion' coming to your doorstep soon?
lin: Surely you can't be serious???? Teaching the Mormans how to grow a cult???
Oh my.
Come, Lord Jesus, Come.
I agree.....Rick Warren is the most dangerous man to Christianity today......
Charlie Fox says, "I consider Rick Warren to be the MOST DANGEROUS person in religion today. jmho"
Reply: Hellllooooooo! How long have we got? And that is ONLY because some people give him the opportunity to be so. And I have yet to understand what it is about this guy that attracks people to him by the thousands! It sure isn't his good looks! Nor his charisma! Nor his intelligence. It just totally baffles me!
Lin said...
He is teaming up with the Mormons to teach them PDL methods to grow their church.
Seriously? Where can I read some documentation on this?
Charlie Fox said...
I consider Rick Warren to be the MOST DANGEROUS person in religion today.
"Religion" is a pretty broad area! Are you including Osama bin Laden, etc. in that list?
lin said, "Can you say 'one world religion' coming to your doorstep soon?"
Reply: Boy, can we! This is what it is all about!
What about 'ecumenical'? Can we say 'ecumenical'?
We don't need to get me started!
Piglet said...
"concernedsbcer said
Churchmouse: I was part of a Warren split almost 10 years ago. It's bad stuff. Once you see it, you are always on guard."
Remark: Always on guard, yes. When all this happened to my husband and I...and the other two deacons, and the pianist of 33 years, etc., and we were interviewed by the national paper...I knew that our lives had been forever altered. And they have. Once this has happened to you, as you all know, there is no turning back. Everybody has a tendency to want things 'the way they were before all this stuff happened'. Things will never ever be as they were...never. But we also understand that this had to be.
Charlie Fox said..."ROFL"
Reply: Good one, huh Charlie! I knew you'd like that!
IMA's comment on Rick Warren "And I have yet to understand what it is about this guy that attracks people to him by the thousands!"
Reply: SATAN
Buzzard Lily T said...
IMA's comment on Rick Warren "And I have yet to understand what it is about this guy that attracks people to him by the thousands!"
Reply: SATAN
10:31 PM, May 27, 2007
BLT...I just pictured Dana Carvey's Church Lady answering that question the same way :p
All,
I have been made aware that an attempt at humor I made on the previous thread was apparently taken by another poster on Mr. Bratton's blog to be an insult against Mr. Bratton, so I have removed the offending post. For the record, I believe Mr. Bratton is talented, intelligent, and a generally nice guy.
SeekingHisWill said...
I am so thankful for you Mike, you speak the truth with integrity!
I have attempted to post on the IDC blog and have been blasted for saying that I love Bellevue and I love Brother Steve. I have read for months the IDC bloggers ideas and have at times tried to show them compassion only to learn that they are very happy in their wrong attitudes. They are obviously filled with hate (a form of murder) and can not understand that they are just as guilty as a, "sex offender" in the eyes of God.
Brother Steve has been treated so unfairly by those people and I notice one by one they have shown up on this blog site. Karen seems to be one of the ring leaders who can not see beyond what happened in her childhood.
They get mad over the truth; they can dish out their accusations but if anyone tries to talk to them they tell NASS to rib up his trolling motor and he deletes the truth from the site.
Thank you for allowing those who stand beside our Pastor a voice to say we love our church and wish those who stand in opposition to our leadership to just leave and find another place where they can sit and pout.
3:19 PM, May 26, 2007
REPLY: I just came back from the dark side & took a page from them in copying a post.
This post just shows how blind,foolish, self rightous,and ignorant these people are.
I am not talking about Mike because while I don't particularly share his views about the issues, ect. this wasn't his post.
Seekinghiswill , the small "h" implies that they are seeking Steve's will. Blasts those on this blog but this person is so full of hate, self rightousness, ignorance, and lies.
They claim that NASS deletes the truth but I don't recall NASS ever deleting my posts. Thanks NASS.
They said that all who are in opposition should leave...I guess that would make them happy so their ears can be tickled and they can live oblivious to the truth.
They would love the light to leave so they can carry on in darkness.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-07-21-rick-warren_x.htm
Forgive me because links are not working so I had to post the url. it is in there...read closely. He welcomes Mormons, Catholics, Jews and ordained women to PDL training.
For those of you who think this is a misquote then just google Synagogue3000 and you will see that it is very true.
I know this is lame, but it seems to me that the ministers get "pastorized" while the people get "homogenized" so they can all feast on the milk not the meat of the word. That is if you can even call it milk.
StayedOnThee said...
I know this is lame, but it seems to me that the ministers get "pastorized" while the people get "homogenized" so they can all feast on the milk not the meat of the word. That is if you can even call it milk.
10:50 PM, May 27, 2007
Its probably milk thats past the sell by date :p
Lynn: Good one! Spoiled milk.
Based on his latest comments, whs is way beyond being a troll and should be banned.
I've seen Warren on TV and to be honest....I've dealt with used car salesmen that looked more honest than he does on tv.
I think "powdered" milk might be a better name for it.
stayedonthee: I agree.
The question is: Does Nass?
How about it, Nass?
Or even sweetened condensed milk.
Romans 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
I'm off to bed and I think I'll pass on the hot milk
Several have mentioned the "Now the Day Has Ended" piece that Dr. Rogers used to do on Sunday nights whenever the Lord's Supper was served. I also found it to be a great blessing and comfort. It was a masterful touch from a loving shepherd. This was often just what I needed before facing a new work week. "So go home; lay your head on your pillow and sleep, 'he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.' "
To be a pastor is to be a shepherd; the terms are synonymous. In contrast, since Steve Gaines arrived I have not heard a loving word from the Bellevue pulpit, only arrogance and disdain for the sheep. His comments at Union City brought his true feelings for us into sharp focus. He does not love the sheep.
One Sunday after Bible fellowship class, we were dawdling our way toward the sanctuary, our procrastination induced by a lack of enthusiasm for the Jamie Parker Revue and having to serve as his backup group. I was struggling over whether we should even go in, when I heard Dr. Gaines on a monitor obviously talking about those who had challenged his integrity. In familiar highhanded fashion, he compared himself with Nehemiah and Moses and his challengers with Sanballat, Tobias and the Egyptians. That was all I could stomach; we went home.
At home we watched "Love Worth Finding". Dr. Rogers preached a biblical sermon on dealing with depression (quite timely in my case.) With loving and tender words he gave hope to hurting people. What a contrast -- a pastor that actually cared for his sheep.
Jesus asked Peter three times (as many times as Peter had denied Him), "Do you love me?" After each of Peter's affirmations, the command was the same: "Feed my sheep." The thrice-repeated lesson broke Peter's heart and is not lightly ignored. A pastor's love for Jesus, and his love for the sheep, are inextricably bound. The absence of one indicates the absence of the other.
all2jesus so correctly stated:
A pastor's love for Jesus, and his love for the sheep, are inextricably bound. The absence of one indicates the absence of the other.
Reply: That's what I call the heart of the matter.
All2Jesus said
Jesus asked Peter three times (as many times as Peter had denied Him), "Do you love me?" After each of Peter's affirmations, the command was the same: "Feed my sheep." The thrice-repeated lesson broke Peter's heart and is not lightly ignored. A pastor's love for Jesus, and his love for the sheep, are inextricably bound. The absence of one indicates the absence of the other.
Piglet says:
Well put.
Okay, lin: I have an immediate problem with the first sentence of that article..."the most influential evangelist you've never heard of".....What???? Most Influencial? Jonathan Edwards......Billy Sunday.....Billy Graham???? And who HASN'T heard of Rick Warren??? Companies use his book for team building and leadership training. I don't believe that for a minute.
I know.....it's late....(okay this is wierd....my word verification starts with PD)
All2Jesus said...
A pastor's love for Jesus, and his love for the sheep, are inextricably bound. The absence of one indicates the absence of the other.
True, and also for all believers...
I John 4:20-21: If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
Good Evening All,
To date I have not contributed any of my thoughts regarding Rick Warren to this or any other blog. For the last 19 months I have been collecting information and reading most of what I have collected on Rick Warren. I have boxes of books and stacks of information from the web.
For the first time I am publishing here, a thought, which came to me in pieces; a bit at a time during the Fall of 2006.
Melchizedek was to Christ
As Rick Warren is to the antichrist.
Now, I am sure that a biblical scholar with a profound understanding of a lot of things that I know nothing about would be a better source for a comment like this. Who could ever be certain of something like this? Not me but everything I have learned about RW telescopes to the antichrist. Talk about scary!
We must stay… looking unto Jesus. Encourage others to steadfastly do the same. This is so very important…. “that Christ may have preeminence.”
Padroc
New BBC Open Forum said...
padroc,
Considering where those high tops have been since then... I'd just let them go. Know what I'm sayin'?
We'll take up a collection or something.
7:21 AM, May 27, 2007
My comments:
Yes! Yes I do know what you’re sayin’. Anyway my 40 foot telescoping sneaker fetching pole was used to save myself from some illogical quicksand I stumbled into and is no longer of any use. Besides, something tells me that would be one favor whose aroma would follow me for ever. (Did I ever tell you that I wrote a song called “Close Pins Forever”)….. Any way I have had a change of heart…. I’ll have to admit… I didn’t loose my spleen it was my heart…. You see it was Dr. Bill who told Julie Ann the truth about me…. Whew! That Julie Ann…. Anyway, Dr. Bill did not think she should throw in her lot with me on a business deal which was….. Well…. Speculative at best and mostly dubious. “Ill gotten was ill conceived” as the saying goes. So I guess all my twisting and turning of a word or phrase in order to get back at Dr. Bill was some of the “ill conceived”. Next time you here from him just tell him…. I took Dr. Steve’s advice and moved on and that “it has been real” and that I won’t tell any bill collectors that I know anything about him. I’ll play completely dumb.
Good night all,
Had a super time with my grandchildren…. The 8 year old loves his bible and is reading through the Psalms. He asks lots of pronunciation questions but keeps plugging along.
Padroc
It took me more years than I can remember to get a picture in my mind of Jesus crying over me while I was being hurt by the child molestor that altered my life and indirectly,my precious children's life.
Charles Page needs to be locked up in a mental institution.
What if he acts on some of his demonic visions. Why are we powerless to stop this crazy person?
What about the other victims reading this???
It often takes many painful years to understand we are precious to the Father who created us.
This man is demonic.
NASS....do we allow devils on this blog????
We joined BBC 16 years ago and thought we had the best worship services and preaching that existed or ever would exist in our life. We loved Dr. Rogers! In honesty I have to admit that we always felt that BBC was too formal and too, "stiff" for common people. We often invited people to attend church with us and after once or twice visiting they would complain that the people were too, "stuck up" for them. I know that everyone has different perceptions but an overall perception of the general people was they were not needed and could just go and get lost in the crowd.
This was not the fault of Bro. Rogers it just happened over a period of time.
Today when we attend BBC and love it even more than we ever could have imagined. In our opinion, the atmosphere is more appealing now to all people regardless of education, race or financial means and we feel that we are doing more like Jesus would have us to be doing in our local area. Church is a place where we can invite all to come receive Christ and be counted as a member of the family of God.
We are sorry that so many people have been upset over the changes but the changes are welcome changes for us and we firmly believe that God knows exactly what is happened at BBC and that He
is in complete control. We trust God and He has granted us the necessary grace to make whatever changes needed to be made in order to be a church reaching the souls of this generation. The old BBC was good for the generation of Dr. Rogers and our parents, but things have changed and the younger pastors realize that some things have to change if our generation will be saved.
I read a lot on this blog about PDL and I have to ask why is there so much fear over this teaching? I also detect a lot of fear behind the voices of concern. Running from Church to Church in fear of change will get us no where. Fear of a pastor's leadership and making hateful remarks as a result of the fears are obviously known in nearly every message.
BBC is not what it used to be, but BBC is what it needs to be: A more humble congregation, dedicated to prayer and sharing the gospel with the people surrounding the building site of BBC. Bellevue was great and Bellevue is great and we are blessed to have been a part of the change and among those who have not abandoned ship just because a new captain is in charge.
powergmommy,
Psalm 46:10.
Be still, and know that I am God.
The gospel message has never been appealing to the world...it never will be...anything done to make it "appealing" to unregenerate people, is to change the gospel. Culture constantly changes, but the gospel never does...it always offends...that is if it's being preached as it is in the Bible. Using what appeals to the world to get them in church, so you can preach a watered-down gospel to them accomplishes nothing of eternal value. Oh it'll grow a church...while it's damning souls to an eternity in hell. "Many will say unto me on that day, Lord, Lord....but I will say unto them, depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." What you win them with is what you win them to.
someone else will have to respond. It has been a very long day and the nut harping on God wanting a child to be molested by his father and being glad about it is more than I can take for tonight.
Concernedsbcer....you are the sweet one.......
I have to vomit now.
I hope the trumpet sounds tonight.
Easternsky,
The narrow gate.
allofgrace,
beautifully expressed......
BTW....really really nice work on N.
powergmommy,
Please know as you prepare to sleep that I will now be interceding for you and yours.
For the Love of Jesus,
Padroc
easternsky said
BBC is not what it used to be, but BBC is what it needs to be: A more humble congregation, dedicated to prayer and sharing the gospel with the people surrounding the building site of BBC. Bellevue was great and Bellevue is great and we are blessed to have been a part of the change and among those who have not abandoned ship just because a new captain is in charge
Piglet says:
Your new captain thinks the biblical requirements for pastors are merely guidelines and real people can't live up to those.
He didn't know what to do about a pedophile on staff.
He is wasting hundreds of thousands of tithe dollars by accepting an inflated salary and redecorating already redecorated offices.
He supports abortion and homosexuality with God's money.
He manipulates and intimidates staff and lay leaders to follow him instead of Christ.
He twists scripture to suit his own agenda.
He has lied on many occasions.
He has broken several laws.
He thinks the financial dealings of the churh are none of YOUR business.
He thinks YOU should follow him unconditionally because he is accountable to no one.
These are not merely changes. They are the destruction of a once Christ honoring church.
If you are happy there - make sure you don't require the books be opened, or regular business meetings, or a membership list. This will get you in trouble.
Just show up and with your tithe. They'll be checking on that, you know.
padroc,
i believe you...thank you.
does anyone know why the latest letter on saving bellevue cannot be clicked on????
He
is in complete control. We trust God and He has granted us the necessary grace to make whatever changes needed to be made in order to be a church reaching the souls of this generation. The old BBC was good for the generation of Dr. Rogers and our parents, but things have changed and the younger pastors realize that some things have to change if our generation will be saved.
_______________________
O.K. I could not pass this one up.
This is the thinking of many today - the church must change with the culture. I'm afraid, dear believer, you have fallen for a subtle lie. Years ago, John MacArthur came to Bellevue and his warning was the body of Christ was losing its desire for discernment and that satan was slowly eroding the church. Erosion is subtle and slow and silent - but it is sure.
We are now in the days of people "wanting their ears tickled" - wanting to be entertained instead of confronted with sin. Church is not to be in the entertainment business. God is HOLY and deserves our reverential fear and worship. There is no true salvation until there is true repentance of sin. God is love but God is also judgment. You cannot have one without the other. Clashing, clamoring music/"praise"
songs that appeal to the sensual
(watch the bodies swaying) do not appeal to the spirit. "God does not do His deepest work in the shallowest part of our beings - the emotions" - A. Rogers.
To all my blogger friends,
Have a great Memorial Day and remember all of our service men and women. All of those who have given their lives to protect our freedom, all of those who have served in the past and are serving today in our armed forces to protect our freedom.
In your prayers today, please remember my nephew Wes and my neighbor's son Timothy who are in Iraq today. Also, our blogger friend who went over to Iraq a few months ago, as well as all of the men and women fighting for our freedom at this very moment.
Many of them are mere children, putting their lives on the line for us.
God bless them all and God Bless our country.
Thanks for the reminder, Sheepless. There are also still two soldiers MIA in Iraq.
EasternGate: PD has the ability to destroy from within by never moving believers onto meat but always staying with milk. This quote, posted by 32 years, says it all: "God does not do His deepest work in the shallowest part of our beings - the emotions" - A. Rogers." PD is all about how one "feels." This is dangerous territory. Emotions change rapidly; "God is the same yesterday, today and forever" regardless of the culture.
Remember, the gate is narrow... Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." I realize in today's culture this sounds harsh, but Jesus said it.
Padroc said, "Now, I am sure that a biblical scholar with a profound understanding of a lot of things that I know nothing about would be a better source for a comment like this. Who could ever be certain of something like this? Not me but everything I have learned about RW telescopes to the antichrist. Talk about scary!"
Remark: Padroc...common sense goes a long way. The Bible tells us to study to show ourselves approved. Far too many people just take others' word for any given subject. I appreciate and admire your willingness to delve into the subject and study it for yourself, thus coming to a sensible conclusion. I have had so many people say to me what a wonderful man RW is without having a clue what he stands for...they admit to me that they read nothing about him other than the books he wrote. The problem there is that if one is not grounded in the Word, they will not see his faulty nonsense. It is a sad day for Christians, whether they be Christians or just think they are. Either way, my prayer is that people will study for themselves the Bible...and will take a closer look at the fruit of people. When I say study the Bible, I don't mean just 'read it in a year' type thing. I mean turn the television off...and get in the Word as much as possible. Study church history. Pray that God will bless your study.
Again, thank you for your discernment Padroc.
Ima
Easternsky,
As I read your comment, all I could think about was how you see wrong right and you see right wrong.
TO you, Bellevue is a much gentler and kinder type of church. I guess I'd have to say that depends on which side of the "fence" you fall on.
If you are in favor of Steve Gaines, there is no wrong you can see in this man. It reminds me of the leftwing folks permeating our country now that will vote for politicians and support their every move no matter what they do.
There are men in our world today that have an idolic following from people who have no sense of right vs. wrong.
I can tell you from my perspective; Bellevue is much closer to being the world today than ever in it's 100 year old plus history.
If that makes the church more appealing to folks like you and others, all I can say is church isn't a place to bring your sin into and feel comfortable while you continue to sin at will with no conscience or rebuke from the Holy Spirit.
I warn you and others to not fall into the trap that Steve Gaines is your savior. A very dangerous environment is being created at Bellevue that does not represent the Lord's church. My advise to you is to take your family and flee if the leadership is not going to change.
There isn't anything about Steve Gaines that makes you feel set apart from the world. Dr. Rogers would preach the Word and communicate the Word to the sheep with great conviction. Sin was not compromised in years past.
When you walked away, you had application for day to day living to carry you throughout the week.
You wanted to read your Bible every day during the week, you wanted to come back on Sunday night and you wanted to come back on Wednesday night.
What do we have now? Steve Gaines doesn't even want to preach on Wednesday night, let alone be there.
He's more interested in getting more money from Bellevue and other revenue sources, i.e. the preaching circuit and hosting tour trips for big money.
God does not like compromise. Steve Gaines has and is compromising the Word through his words and actions. Steve Gaines has now compromised men like Harry Smith, Steve Tucker, Jeff Arnold Jr., John Caldwell, Mark Dougharty, Chuck Taylor, Bryan Miller, the search committee, and now the staff of Bellevue who chooses to follow this man quietly.
You mentioned that Bellevue is not a humble church.
I have to tell you that if you actually believe this statement, I fear for you personally and your family. I plead with you for your sake and the sake of your family, flee from Bellevue and run as fast as you can away from that place.
I pray God opens your eyes to the trap you are in.
Bear in mind that false teaching usually has some measure of truth wrapped around it to draw in those who are not grounded in the Word but have only tasted the milk of the Word.
Nathanb-
Amen, brother! You said it well.
As Christians, we are not supposed to feel "comfortable," and we are not supposed to "compromise" for the world. God's Word tells us not to be conformed to the world.
Off to spend this day with family. Thank you Lord for the freedoms that have been secured by valiant men and women - many of whom have given their lives - so that we can experience times with those we love in an atmosphere of relative safety and abundance. Blessed Memorial Day to you all.
All: I have been listening quietly since the time of my postings a couple of days ago. At that time I took issue with some statements that were being made. I was admonished (thank you Charlie Fox) to be careful HOW I made statements. I was told at least once that my post was ugly (for which I apoligized). I was challenged to clarify what seemed to be ‘blanket’ statements (thank you NASS). And so I have tried to listen and learn what it means on this blog to be gentle, careful with words…how to disagree with kindness and compassion…If I’m not mistaken, I think that was the general gist of the admonition. And just this morning, as I catch up on my reading, this is the language bloggers are using to describe their disagreement/disdain for those who hold a different position than theirs:
OC said: …national Stevie league
OC said…Watching,…You got real quiet, real fast…
Concernedsbcer: that's what we call in Texas, "cuttin' their water off."
Concerned said: I hope all the power brokers of today's churches are happy with their rewards, because their Heavenly Rewards are going to be few, if any. The last on earth will be first and the first on earth will be last…As someone stated last night MEN [not mice]WHERE ARE YOU????????
David Brown said: Dear Watching: Let me correct myself. A few weeks ago I said you were an idiot. And that got posted all over Mike Bratton's blog with delight to some there.Well they are going to have a field day with this one then…Let me make the correction. You are an insane idiot.
Piglet said: concernedsbcer…I don't know if I've been quoted lately. I don't go over there because the are heffalumps....
Rod Almondmartanti said... Thanks Charlie. I guess that X penticostal explains it all. Maybe he was slain in the spirit one to many times. 9:30 PM, May 27, 2007
Charlie Fox said... He is definitely a cup and saucer short of a full place setting!!! 9:37 PM, May 27, 2007
Lynn The Recycled Whammy said...NASS, My apologizes, but I have to say this. ..Watching, the only words that describe you on this blog is a barking moonbat!..9:40 PM, May 27, 2007
Lynn The Recycled Whammy said...
I'm sorry watching, but you seriously need MAJOR psychological help…
Piglet says: I've started calling it the PD virus. Wish we had a blood test to administer to all candidates for preaching positions.
imaresistor said... Hellllooooooo! How long have we got? And that is ONLY because some people give him the opportunity to be so. And I have yet to understand what it is about this guy that attracks people to him by the thousands! It sure isn't his good looks! Nor his charisma! Nor his intelligence. It just totally baffles me! 10:07 PM, May 27, 2007
Buzzard Lily T said... IMA's comment on Rick Warren "And I have yet to understand what it is about this guy that attracks people to him by the thousands!"…Reply: SATAN 10:31 PM, May 27, 2007
Lynn The Recycled Whammy said... I've seen Warren on TV and to be honest....I've dealt with used car salesmen that looked more honest than he does on tv. 10:54 PM, May 27, 2007
All2Jesus said:… our procrastination induced by a lack of enthusiasm for the Jamie Parker Revue and having to serve as his backup group.
powerGmommy said... This man is demonic.NASS....do we allow devils on this blog???? 12:18 AM, May 28, 2007
powerGmommy said... someone else will have to respond. It has been a very long day and the nut harping on God wanting a child to be molested by his father and being glad about it is more than I can take for tonight.Concernedsbcer....you are the sweet one.......I have to vomit now. I hope the trumpet sounds tonight. 12:31 AM, May 28, 2007
Bystander said: Folks, I’m sorry but I see a very strong double standard here. I don’t mind at all conforming to the ‘rules of the blog’ but I think a fair, balanced dialogue is a standard all should be held to…not just those who disagree with you.
While Rick Warren’s name has been dragged through the mud pretty thoroughly, I wonder if anyone has stopped to consider the fruit of his ministry? Have people, lost in darkness, been led into saving relationships with Jesus Christ? Have we seen evidence of those who are growing in their relationship with Jesus because of his ministry? Has God used Warren in ways that have grown His Kingdom?
I’m quite sure there are faults/weaknesses in his ministry as there are in all pastors-they’re human beings who sin like the rest of us (although held to a higher standard, according to Scripture). Even Dr. Rogers had his faults. He was a man, a sinner saved by grace, who made mistakes too.
Some have posted their pre Gaines/post Gaines experience and have been touched by God’s grace in both places at both times. I just wonder once again, if there is enough room in our thinking for people who hold different convictions than ours?
I think sometimes we get so caught up in our own experiences (many of which are tragic, horrific, without excuse) and paint the rest of the Christian world (or in this case anything that has to do with Rick Warren) with a very broad brush.
Different doesn’t necessarily mean wrong. Again, I’m not trying to be rude or disrespectful and it appears to me that many of us tend to allow our emotions to lead us to use sarcasim and name calling as a defense for what we believe. I’ve tried to be very careful NOT to take that approach when disagreeing. I think sometimes the veil of annonymity causes us to use language we wouldn’t use if we were sitting in a room face to face, trying to work through our differences.
Although I don’t personally condone the theological convictions of many in main stream Christianity, I’m not so arrogant as to believe that when I get to Heaven I won’t discover that my convictions were not always right, as strongly as I believed them. They were based on Scripture, but so were the Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, etc. with whom I disagreed.
Nathanb,
Great post. Thanks for knowing and speaking the truth.
It's like now when I hear Dr. Mike Spradlin "preach", I know I've been to church and heard the word of God in complete, untwisted truth.
Off to spend time with my family.
Everyone, have a blessed day!
NathanB said...
Steve Gaines has now compromised men like Harry Smith, Steve Tucker, Jeff Arnold Jr., John Caldwell, Mark Dougharty, Chuck Taylor, Bryan Miller, the search committee, and now the staff of Bellevue...
A standard claim (it's not an argument) from Gaines supporters is that he is "God's man." I don't dispute that. I believe God brought him to Bellevue to expose the compromise that was already there.
The power cabal now running BBC feeds on itself like the Pharisees of Jesus' day. They all need to go before real healing can begin.
I have to agree with bystander about the double standard often seen here. Name calling and mockery are not valid forms of debate. If you cannot compose a Christ-like, scripturally sound response to someone, take some time to cool off. Do not allow another's vitriol to excuse your own. And please, everyone, ignore the trolls. They are only here to drag the worst out of you and then snicker when they succeed.
Easternsky said...
I read a lot on this blog about PDL and I have to ask why is there so much fear over this teaching? I also detect a lot of fear behind the voices of concern. Running from Church to Church in fear of change will get us no where. Fear of a pastor's leadership and making hateful remarks as a result of the fears are obviously known in nearly every message.
BBC is not what it used to be, but BBC is what it needs to be: A more humble congregation, dedicated to prayer and sharing the gospel with the people surrounding the building site of BBC. Bellevue was great and Bellevue is great and we are blessed to have been a part of the change and among those who have not abandoned ship just because a new captain is in charge.
12:19 AM, May 28, 2007
Its not an issue of someone else being in charge. Instead, its an issue of the integrity of the pastor. Here is a brief list of crimes both legal and scriptural that Gaines and his accomplices have committed:
1. Failing to Report to the authorities of a child molestor and instead of firing him, kept him on staff and given a pay raise all the while victimizing the molesters victim all over again.
2. Criminal Tresspassing in an attempt to harass and intimidate Mark Sharpe.
3. Going to Union City and talk trash about his congregation.
4. Instead of tending to his flock, he's fleecing the flock (See how much money he's pocketing from the trip he's on as an example).
5. Rigging a business meeting to avoid adressing issues.
6. Failure to comply with state law by refusing to turn over documents to Josh Manning and the IDC upon request.
These are just some of the atrocities that Gaines and Co. have committed. Do you really want a pastor that has less integrity than a used car salesman? I sure as heck don't.
bystander said;
While Rick Warren’s name has been dragged through the mud pretty thoroughly, I wonder if anyone has stopped to consider the fruit of his ministry?
I see the fruit of his ministry at BBC. I see it very well.
This man isn't out working the homeless shelters and missions. He is in the churches demanding oaths and tithe pledges. He is going into established churches, declaring them "dead", uprooting the congregations and tossing them out on the streets, and replacing them with his own 'agenda.'
I saw Rick Warren on Fox recently. He was promoting his idea of "networking global healthcare through the church." This was the only thing he mentioned that was even related to religion.
Do people in our country remember the dark ages, when the Catholic church controled everything? Do they not remember the struggle for freedom from that control?
Then he Warren launches into his Global P.E.A.C.E. Plan, my blood starts to curdle.
Churchmouse....
Warren is already going to foreign governments trying to influence them!!!
Church Mouse said:
I see the fruit of his ministry at BBC. I see it very well.
This man isn't out working the homeless shelters and missions. He is in the churches demanding oaths and tithe pledges. He is going into established churches, declaring them "dead", uprooting the congregations and tossing them out on the streets, and replacing them with his own 'agenda.'
Reply: But to you see the fruit of Warren's ministry in other parts of the world? Could your experience be biased by the deep problems you have faced at Bellevue? Yes, this man HAS worked homeless shelters, is DEEPLY involved in missions, has spent many years training and equipping members of his church who were once lost sheep, to minister in homeless shelters and to do missions all over the world.
Long before he had written a book or was known by the national media...25 years ago, he was quietly helping other pastors.
Has he done everything right? No. But then neither did Dr. Rogers. No pastor does. But Rick Warren was leading a conference, probably 10 years ago, when he stopped to introduce Dr. Rogers, asked him to stand, and told the group what an impact Dr. Rogers had had on the Christian world through the SBC. Dr. Rogers was at the conference as a learner-not a leader.
I don't know if Dr. Rogers agreed or disagreed with Warren. But wouldn't it be fascinating to know what could happen in the Christian Family if we focused on what we shared in common instead of what we disagreed about?
Churchmouse- AMEN. Well put.
Rick Warren kind of reminds me of a song: "It's all about meeee-eeeee...."
And then, there is the argument of: "Well, he is just human. Look at all of the other great things his ministry is doing." Some want us to overlook the "me-isms" associated with Warrenism.
bystander,
I think you made some good points -- in the second half of your post. My, it must have taken a long time to write the first half -- having to go back through all those comments and cutting and pasting quotes that you deemed "inappropriate." (As for the comments by "whs," those are going to be deleted shortly, as he has been banned.)
As for the "double standard" you accuse me/us of, I agree that some people push the envelope from time to time, and I'd like to remind everyone, regardless of your opinions about a particular subject, to try to keep your emotions in check. You do nothing to further your "cause" or convince people of anything with impulsive, emotional language. Righteous indignation is one thing, and in some cases appropriate, like when someone says God actually enjoys seeing a child abused. That's just sick, and the writer of such a statement deserves any negative reaction he gets.
Now, having said that, to "bystander" and others who perceive a "double standard" or don't like the way I moderate this blog, let me just say this. It's a blog, okay? If you don't like the standards, don't read it! It's that simple! No two people are going to perceive everything the same way, so what seems to be a "double standard" to you isn't necessarily seen the same way by someone else. Your tax dollars or tithes aren't going to pay me to do this, so until they do, I will continue to moderate this space to the best of my ability. Anyone is free to start a blog, set the rules, and post on it if he doesn't like this one.
I will entertain any and all suggestions -- by e-mail. Doesn't mean I'll always agree with them or implement them, but I will consider them. I'm always looking for interesting topic headings for those times when there's nothing "in the news." So instead of trying to be the "blog police," why not put your imagination to work and come up with some interesting ideas for discussion topics?
watchinghisstory,
You should have mail!
Bystander said...
But wouldn't it be fascinating to know what could happen in the Christian Family if we focused on what we shared in common instead of what we disagreed about?
10:01 AM, May 28, 2007
Woe….hold on. With that premise, one could say: “Hey, even though some disagree on PW’s actions, he did lead us in some might fine prayers. We should all pray. We have that in common. Therefore, let’s focus on that and not those other things he (PW) did that we disagree with.”
Hmmm…what’s wrong with this picture??
Bystander, respectfully I disagree with your premise and your position.
New BBC Open Forum said:...My, it must have taken a long time to write the first half -- having to go back through all those comments and cutting and pasting quotes that you deemed "inappropriate."
Reply: Actually, I cut and pasted as I read. I assumed there would be some who disagreed with my comment. I was trying carefully to be accurate.
I think you do a very good job of moderating the blog (not that you need my approval, I know you don't) and I have appreciated the middle ground you have sought to keep bloggers focused on.
Thank you, bystander.
Churchmouse said...
Bystander said...
I don't know if Dr. Rogers agreed or disagreed with Warren. But wouldn't it be fascinating to know what could happen in the Christian Family if we focused on what we shared in common instead of what we disagreed about?
Reply:
We share things in common with every human on the planet. Does that mean we should put aside the differences and worship with them?
II Cor 6:17 tells us ""come out from among them, and be ye separate" as Paul spoke of idol worshippers. I believe he is telling us not to conform to the world.
10:16 AM, May 28, 2007
Facts only Please saidWoe….hold on. With that premise, one could say: “Hey, even though some disagree on PW’s actions, he did lead us in some might fine prayers. We should all pray. We have that in common. Therefore, let’s focus on that and not those other things he (PW) did that we disagree with.”
Hmmm…what’s wrong with this picture??
Reply: What PW did was sinful-horrifically sinful. Inexcusable. He should suffer the consequences for his sin. How that has been handled has been a subject of disagreement and debate since it happened. Actually, I happen to agree with most on this blog...it should have been handled immediately, justly, and without compromise in any way.
Prayer-the need all Believers have to talk to God, their creator...is something I would hope all Christians could agree on. Even then, many would disagree on HOW to pray. There would be a wide and diverse range of convictions on that point...Pentacostals, Charismatics, Baptists, etc. However, I would think that 'the need to pray' would be something we could all agree on. Just because I may not pray exactly like you is something we could argue about-or we could agree that we both feel the need to pray.
As brothers/sisters in Christ I would think it would be more productive for us to encourage each other to pray than for us to attack one another on the point of our differences.
What I said:
This man isn't out working the homeless shelters and missions.
What I was trying to say:
Why does Rick Warren not build his churches from the shelters and missions? Why does he feel he needs to go into an established church and chase off the people who are worhsipping there and have helped build the church with their sacrafices?
The people who are often mistreated and pushed aside are the elderly who have given to the church for years. When they are old, uncool, and helpless, they are told to find another place to worship, lovingly of course.
It seems to me that a heathen with a tender heart would be 'mortified' at what Rick Warren is doing in the name of reaching the 'unchurched.'
Churchmouse said:
We share things in common with every human on the planet. Does that mean we should put aside the differences and worship with them? ...
Reply: I wouldn't think so. My reference was to Christians. Wouldn't you think when we get to Heaven there will be Southern Baptists worshipping God with Methodists, Presbyterians, etc? Although you may vehemently disagree with his methods, wouldn't you think Rick Warren will probably be there? Worshipping side by side with Dr. Rogers?
bystander said,
As brothers/sisters in Christ I would think it would be more productive for us to encourage each other to pray than for us to attack one another on the point of our differences.
Reply: Do we warn others through prayer? We have those in our church leadership who are untruthful, those who are robbers, those who are interested in their own prosperity at our expense. This is not of Christ. Are we not obligated to warn others?
Church mouse said:
What I was trying to say:
Why does Rick Warren not build his churches from the shelters and missions? Why does he feel he needs to go into an established church and chase off the people who are worhsipping there and have helped build the church with their sacrafices?
The people who are often mistreated and pushed aside are the elderly who have given to the church for years. When they are old, uncool, and helpless, they are told to find another place to worship, lovingly of course.
Reply: I'm really in no position to speak for or defend Rick Warren. And you make a very good point. When elderly people and people that are uncool, or helpless are told to find another place to worship that isn't right.
Church mouse said:
Do we warn others through prayer? We have those in our church leadership who are untruthful, those who are robbers, those who are interested in their own prosperity at our expense. This is not of Christ. Are we not obligated to warn others?
Reply: Yes, I would think we are. It's a good point.
Imaresistor said:
that people will study for themselves the Bible...and will take a closer look at the fruit of people. When I say study the Bible, I don't mean just 'read it in a year' type thing. I mean turn the television off...and get in the Word as much as possible. Study church history. Pray that God will bless your study.
--------------------
You are so right!!
Jesus said "You do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God" (Matt. 22:29
Scofield notes: (22:29) "You do err" (from the Greek verb planao)
carries the idea of being DECEIVED.
Thus Jesus' answer gives the three
incapacities of the rationalist:
(1)SELF-DECEPTION (Rom. 1:21-22);
(2) IGNORANCE of the spiritual content of Scriptures (Acts 13:27);
and DISBELIEF in the intervention of divine power (2 Pet.3:4-9).
Lack of discernment is rampant in the church today because of lack of personal study of the Word of God, and lack of teachers/preachers rightly dividing the Word of truth to those who are under their teaching.
I do believe Methodists, Presbyterians, and others will be there. Will Rick Warren be there? Only God knows that.
I choose not to worship at a Methodist Church or a Presbyterian Church, because I don't interpret the scripture in the same way they do. I am a Baptist. On this Memorial Day, I thank God for the opportunity to worship Him in the way I interpret the scripture. We may not always have that freedom.
Long live the USA and long live our differences.
Happy Memorial Day, friends. I am off to look for strawberries.
Churchmouse said, "my blood starts to curdle."
Comment: I hear you Church mouse! The blood running through my veins has clabbered...like buttermilk!
Forgive them Lord...for they know not what they do...or say.
Church Mouse said:
I choose not to worship at a Methodist Church or a Presbyterian Church, because I don't interpret the scripture in the same way they do. I am a Baptist.
Reply: That's wonderful. But we still have much in common as fellow believers. If the world could see the Church of Jesus Christ 'coming together' on earth as we will in Heaven, I would think that would be quite a testimony. Doesn't mean we have to worship together. And it doesn't mean we ignore or excuse sin (I'm thinking of many of the leadership woes at BBC).
I too, am off to celebrate Memorial Day. God bless you all.
NASS, please don't think I was accusing you of having double standards. It's just that too often people take offense at ad hominem attacks, but have no trouble doing it themselves.
bystander said:
But wouldn't it be fascinating to know what could happen in the Christian Family if we focused on what we shared in common instead of what we disagreed about?
I know you're referring to the body of Christ, but this sentiment forms the backbone of the ecumenical movement and opens the door to every form of heresy: Ignore error, no matter how egregious, and let's all just get along. Where do we draw the line? Or do we? Do we welcome Mormons in spite of their utterly Satanic teachings? Is it ok if Rick Warren teaches them his methods to grow their cult?
Bringing it closer to home, is it ok if a pastor lies repeatedly, does not believe Matt 18 applies to him or that sexual immorality should disqualify a man from the ministry? To this day, Steve Gaines is unrepentant about his handling of the PW situation, still believes the man should be on staff and would bring him back if he could.
Warren is part of the ultra-conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and all his senior staff sign on to the SBC's doctrines, such as the literal and infallible Bible and exclusion of women as senior pastors. Yet Warren's pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women.
"I'm not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. I won't try to change other denominations. Why be divisive?" he asks, citing as his model Billy Graham, "a statesman for Christ ministering across barriers."
Notice how Warren does not divide with even those that reject Jesus. I guess He goes in the "non-essential" column.
bystander said
While Rick Warren’s name has been dragged through the mud pretty thoroughly, I wonder if anyone has stopped to consider the fruit of his ministry? Have people, lost in darkness, been led into saving relationships with Jesus Christ? Have we seen evidence of those who are growing in their relationship with Jesus because of his ministry? Has God used Warren in ways that have grown His Kingdom?
Piglet says:
I'm still trying to get over the fact that you think my heffalump statement was cruel. Surely you have a sense of humor.
But that's okay. I just want to know if you subscribe to the idea that the ends justify the means? That is assuming that Warren IS drawing folks to Christ and deepening their walk, which many here would debate considering the "bait" he uses to draw people in and the fluff he is preaching.
But is it okay to help the Mormons and other false religions "grow" their churches? Is it okay to partner up with Jolie who is openly bisexual among other things?
How about this famous member of Warren's church who is making millions off of porn? By the way, if these are the types of christians Warren's churches are producing, what is the point?
Warren doesn't list sin as one of the top 5 problems in the world - but instead a spirituality that isn't "working" for them (?)
I am seriously concerned for you. This may be your view of SG as well, look only at the serface and don't look at his fruit or check him against God's word.
We are warned in scripture against false teachers. Truth mixed with error is very subtle and effective. Living in direct conflict with what you preach is a red flag - Warren SAYS Jesus is the only way and then helps false cults to grow, partners with them, and then says he doesn't want be divisive over "non-essentials".
Jesus is a "non-essential"?
Watch out.
SeekingHisWill is an EXCELLENT example of ignorance and emotional motivated slander.
Take a good look at that post.
Do you see any facts that are stated or disputed? NO
Do you see any Truth that is being defended? No
Is there any scripture or any knowledge there whatsoever that is being debated as to it's value? No
Then what is it this post consists of?
SLANDER
NAME CALLING
HATE MONGERING
ACCUSING OF THE BRETHREN
GET OUT OF MY CHURCH AND GO SOMEWHERE ELSE AND POUT
The entire post of seekingHisWill is a childish temper tantrum. Ther is no logic and no substance to anything they have said except: I hate you, go away!
It is important to really look and analyze what is (or in this case, is not being said), and not respond on an emotional level. That is how they try to get us off point.
The Book Of JUDE speaks to this time we are facing.
AMEN! 32years. It is the all about the WORD or lack there of.....The pdl, rickwarren,church growth could not happen if we were immersed in the WORD as we should be.
But then, The WORD tells us it is goin to happen. It is a shame many professing christians don't have enough WORD to see it.
Bystander said, " I wonder if anyone has stopped to consider the fruit of his ministry?"
Comment: Bystander, I have probably given this more thought this past two years, maybe more, than you can possibly imagine. I understand where you are trying to go in your conversation about Rick Warren, but until you have walked in some of our shoes, I would just like to suggest you do an intense study of what this man is doing to people's lives. A true man of God does not go about doing the Lord's work while advocating 'shooting' the wolves out of the other side of his mouth, among other things. He does not sing Purple Haze to open the 25th anniversary celebration of his church. And on and on. Pray for him? Yes. Condone what he is doing? No. Look at the life of Jesus and show me what you find similar in Rick Warren, only meaning he (we) should try to be Christlike. It is not there. Charles Manson could build churches.
I appreciate and love you as a sister in Christ. Do yourself a good deed and do an intense study of Rick Warren before you continue any praise of him whatsoever.
Ima
Rick Warren is showing his true colours. The answer to why he is not starting his own church and going into other chruches is contained in the very fact of what he is doing!
It is easier to destroy a true chruch from the inside out than from the outside. Look at Bellevue. The "new" age moved in and who moved out? The true Believers. Isn't this what is occuring all over? It is easier to TAKEOVER a church that is alread established and cater to the ignorant in its midst than to start a new work.
And, that method has proved to be very successful for warren.
What is the IDC blog?
Piglet said (responding to bystander)...
I'm still trying to get over the fact that you think my heffalump statement was cruel. Surely you have a sense of humor.
bystander also took offense at my characterization of the music service (now synonymous with "worship service") as the Jamie Parker Revue. While I admit to a bit of cheekiness, that is exactly my perception along with many others. We've brought my parents to Bellevue many times over the years whenever they visit us. The first time my mother experienced a Jamie Parker "show" (with no prior comment or coloring from us), she said "Man, that fellow is really impressed with himself, isn't he?" Jamie may be a gifted soloist (you're entitled to your opinion), but a music leader he is not. I have never felt "led" by him, only like I was backing up his solo improvisations. His lack of direction has also affected really fine music leader, Jon Tyner, whose previously precise direction (which he still uses on the choir) has now been replaced with Jamie's feckless waving.
bystander, the comments you chose to pull reflect a familiar approach among the "Pro Bro" crowd: Zero in on any weakness in a person's argument while ignoring the bulk of what was said. You seem like too reasonable a person to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
pdude wrote:
"I just came back from the dark side & took a page from them in copying a post.
This post just shows how blind,foolish, self rightous,and ignorant these people are."
Heh heh. I see you found that, too. All I can say is, consider the source. In case you don't remember, the person's initials are "B.T."
all2jesus wrote:
"NASS, please don't think I was accusing you of having double standards."
It never crossed my mind. I don't recall you accusing anyone of that!
rod wrote:
"What is the IDC blog?"
I don't think IDC has a blog. If they do, this isn't it!
Disclaimer: This blog is not affiliated with any organization or any other blog, website, or specific person.
stayedonthee "Bear in mind that false teaching usually has some measure of truth wrapped around it to draw in those who are not grounded in the Word but have only tasted the milk of the Word."
Oh boy is this ever true. Otherwise we would recognize a false teacher immediately. The Bible warns us that they are subtle and come in secretly.
Just the other day, I was listening to a well known pastor on Christian radio. He was preaching a sermon on a ‘topic’ using 2 separate verses.
I kept thinking…pretty soon he is going to get to the rest of the scripture around those verses…but he never did. The other verses would have completely changed the meaning of his message. It would have been the “Full Counsel of God”.
Did he lie? Did he give a false message? You bet he did. He gave his audience what they wanted to hear and people will believe it and act accordingly unless they are Bereans and check out the context of the 2 verses he proof texted.
It still boggles my mind that this sort of thing is so blatent and these people just keep getting more and more popular.
Bystander wrote: While Rick Warren’s name has been dragged through the mud pretty thoroughly, I wonder if anyone has stopped to consider the fruit of his ministry?"
What is your definition of fruit?
"Have people, lost in darkness, been led into saving relationships with Jesus Christ? Have we seen evidence of those who are growing in their relationship with Jesus because of his ministry? Has God used Warren in ways that have grown His Kingdom?"
Ask the Jews in Synagogue3000. The answer will be no. As a matter of fact they praised Warren for coming and teaching them PDL methods without ever mentioning Jesus.
By the way, we have discussed this ad nauseum several threads ago. You may want to read through it and so some research on Warren. It would totally worth your time as it would involve delving deep into scripture and that is NEVER a waste of time.
But the most important research you can do is go through the 40 Days of Purpose with a good Bible and a fine tooth comb.
Here is an excellent tool for you to use...
http://cicministry.org/berean.php
easternsky wrote: "we firmly believe that God knows exactly what is happened at BBC and that He
is in complete control. We trust God and He has granted us the necessary grace to make whatever changes needed to be made in order to be a church reaching the souls of this generation."
I don't know where to begin because there is so much false belief in your comments but please know that my concern is for you.
When it comes to the church, scripture teaches us that Jesus WILL present a pure and spotless Bride to HIMSELF. This should scare us.
Acts 5 shows how God did this in the early church to purify it. Many who were not really believers went out from them because of the fear. Yet, there was great respect for the believers because of their purity.
So without sanctification and resulting purity, reaching souls is moot. Win them to what? A church building?
The only thing that God uses to win souls is the preaching of His Word in context. We are fooling ourselves if we think a walk down an ailse, a sinners prayer and baptism without a new nature is salvation.
bystander said
Although I don’t personally condone the theological convictions of many in main stream Christianity, I’m not so arrogant as to believe that when I get to Heaven I won’t discover that my convictions were not always right, as strongly as I believed them. They were based on Scripture, but so were the Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, etc. with whom I disagreed.
Piglet says:
I agree with this. I DO think there are "non-essentials" and we should unite for the cause of Christ in agreement on the things that really matter.
In Warren's case, he is uniting with cults and false religions.
In Steve Gaines case, he is wanting a false unity not based on truth and God's word but based on loyalty to HIM. God's word codemns sin - Gaines wants us to overlook his sin and continues to cover it - blatantly in the case of the financial records.
Differences in style don't bother me - but we never had to excuse and overlook such public sin under Dr. R. I can't trust a pastor who has proven himself untrustworthy. The membership deserves a godly man who is above reproach. Gaines has too many issues. He needs to get his act together, repent, and submit to the Lord...give half his salary back to the furtherance of the gospel, restore folks and families against whom he has sinned, obey the state laws, and on and on.
Thanks for your civil discourse. Most of us had no part in this and didn't ask for it. Most on this blog welcomed Steve Gaines at the beginning and were not looking for fault. This is just where we are.
"Bystander said...
I don't know if Dr. Rogers agreed or disagreed with Warren. But wouldn't it be fascinating to know what could happen in the Christian Family if we focused on what we shared in common instead of what we disagreed about?"
Is that what Jesus did in His earthly ministry? What you said above is not scriptural. "Thou Shalt Not"...is not focusing on what is shared in common.
Jesus said that He did not come to bring peace but a sword. The Word divides. It will divide families..simply by being quoted and believed.
Seems everyone has a fish on their car today. Lots of people wore WWJD bracelets.
I urge you will all compassion in my heart to study Matthew 5-23 in depth. Pay close attention to Matthew 7. Really study it using a real Bible (not a Message Bible or a paraphrase)
This is NOT about winning debates here...it is about eternal life and believing the truth of scripture and acting on it.
bystander wrote:Reply: But to you see the fruit of Warren's ministry in other parts of the world? Could your experience be biased by the deep problems you have faced at Bellevue? Yes, this man HAS worked homeless shelters, is DEEPLY involved in missions, has spent many years training and equipping members of his church who were once lost sheep, to minister in homeless shelters and to do missions all over the world."
Would you call passing out PDL books in other countries missions? The president of Rwanda (it is on youtube) gave a speech saying that PDL brought healing to his country. Not Jesus..Not Scripture but PDL. There is more but I hope that one example will open your eyes a bit more.
"Long before he had written a book or was known by the national media...25 years ago, he was quietly helping other pastors."
Helping them do what? When Warren started Saddleback here is what he did: He went door to door in Orange Co, Calif and asked people why they did not go to church. Then he compliled the answers and designed a church around people's 'felt needs'. Rock music, light preaching (no hell, sin, etc)
I have searched scripture and cannot find where this is scriptural. Preaching the full counsel of God is what saves. Not supplying felt needs. (Our hearts our deceitful...felt needs are deceitful)
"Has he done everything right? No. But then neither did Dr. Rogers. No pastor does. But Rick Warren was leading a conference, probably 10 years ago, when he stopped to introduce Dr. Rogers, asked him to stand, and told the group what an impact Dr. Rogers had had on the Christian world through the SBC. Dr. Rogers was at the conference as a learner-not a leader."
Rick Warren does this with everyone. He is all about unity with no truth. He has to disregard the truth for unity.
Keep in mind that years ago, many did not see the fruit of Warren...including me.
His lies regarding the trip to Syria was a wake up call to many who had been blind to Warren. He blatently lied and was caught. There is video and audio proof of his lies. He immediately got his big PR guru, Larry Ross, out there spinning this but he did not fool Joe Farrah one minute who put it on WND for the world to see.
There is just so much it would take all day. But one last thing...Warren violates Matthew 6 all the time with the media.
lin said:
His lies regarding the trip to Syria was a wake up call to many who had been blind to Warren. He blatently lied and was caught. There is video and audio proof of his lies. He immediately got his big PR guru, Larry Ross, out there spinning this but he did not fool Joe Farrah one minute who put it on WND for the world to see.
Lynn's response:
When did Warren go Nancy Pelosi and visit a nation that supports terrorism? (Just asking when it was, not questioning you :) )
Lynn's response:
When did Warren go Nancy Pelosi and visit a nation that supports terrorism? (Just asking when it was, not questioning you :) )
REPLY:
Late Oct.- early Nov. of last year.
Lynn, I'll let 'SANA' tell you:
http://www.sana.org/eng/21/2006/11/13/85205.htm
Also google World Net Daily and Rick Warren. They have all the audio on line. There were also some you tube videos which Saddleback pulled after the WND article.
In these...Warren had the audacity to say the Christians in Syria were NOT persecuted...one must really get his definition of persecution.
Another lie he told them was that 80% of Americans were not behind the President. Where did he get that figure? The State Department? Why would he tell a terrorist country with a Dictator something like that? False Unity? To be 'liked'?
That was also on a video that was pulled.
This trip was such a disaster for him following his announcement about 'preaching' in North Korea that he had to do some serious PR moves. I got a hold of a you tube video of him talking to a group where he is furious that anyone question him. He said these other 'Christians' were not civil. That one was pulled, too.
Yeah, I tend to get a bit angry when a pastor goes to a Muslim/terrorist country and tells the world Christians are not persecuted there. What a lie.
It really is all about Rick Warren and his celebrity status. (by the way, in one of the walking tour videos...he got lots wrong about Paul and the churches in the NT...it was sad...such basic biblical ignorance!)
"In these...Warren had the audacity to say the Christians in Syria were NOT persecuted...one must really get his definition of persecution.
Another lie he told them was that 80% of Americans were not behind the President. Where did he get that figure? The State Department? Why would he tell a terrorist country with a Dictator something like that? False Unity? To be 'liked'?
Lynn's Response:
Call me crazy here....but isn't Warren telling Syria that considered a FELONY! I mean, what Warren did, like Pelosi is violate the Logan Act!!!
Here is another article worth reading on this trip with more details:
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2006/11/purpose-driven-terrorism.html
We forget that the democratic president of Lebonan was assassinated right after this trip by Syrian sponsored terrorists.
See! Don't get me started on Warren but people need to do their homework instead of coming here and talking about 'fruit'.
There are organizations now quietly trying to undo some of the damage of his trip with the true church there.
What has been written here about Warren and his apostacy is only about 1/100th of the full story.
Standby...it would probably be a good move for you to listen to what this group of people can tell YOU about Rick Warren, instead of YOU trying to tell us. This group has either been 'among the wolves shot by him' or has done intensive study on him and can tell you the hard facts about RW that have been verified. None of us are really interested in hearing an uninformed person telling us how great Rick Warren is. Having said this, let me tell you this is nothing personal against you. Absolutely NOTHING! We have heard all this before and we all know there isn't an ounce of truth in it. You are beating a dead horse. Why don't you try some dialogue with us on a different subject?
Bystander,
I have noticed that you have a problem with those who don't take 'proper' words and tone. Among others, you specify me. OK. Yes, I can be rather abrasive at times. Obnoxious even. And I have had to delete my own comments, realizing that I am in the wrong. But I also see that you do not care to put comments in their context. I will ask you to read Watching's posts (if they aren't already deleted) in order to get a context to my 'offensive' comments.
Furthermore, I see nothing in Scripture that tells me to behave nicely toward sin. My hero,my Lord and Savior, Jesus of Nazareth, even called His best friend 'Satan' when Peter attempted to thwart God's plan. It's about being holy, not about being 'nice'.
I know, it is easy to get those confused. Many do. But they are not necessarily the same. Am I calling myself 'holy'? Definitely not. But I would suggest that you may want to reconsider your judgements on those of us who you consider to be using 'double standards'. Many of these people have seen sin multiply, and are enraged at the apathy surrounding it. Rightfully so. And now they are 'flipping tables'.
And lastly, I just have to say it, and me being 'obnoxious' and all, that Jesus was and is no sissy. Gentle and mild? Ok. But in the face of sin? The toughest there ever was. Just sayin.
oc.
OC
Good words. I keep going back to that episode where Jesus turned the tables of those who turned the house of God into a den of theives.
Won't He hold us responsible for our actions or the lack thereof? After all, we are His hands and feet. Jesus was the hardest on the religious crowd - who knew the truth but distorted it and twisted it to suit their own ends.
I say in this case at BBC the gloves should be off.
NASS
You have mail.
Piglet,
Is a 'heffalump' like a 'Hezbollah'?
If it is, you one bad momma. Repent. :)
junk99mail said...
Charlie Fox said...
I consider Rick Warren to be the MOST DANGEROUS person in religion today.
"Religion" is a pretty broad area! Are you including Osama bin Laden, etc. in that list?
REPLY:
YES, I absolutely am.
Who is the theology person on the blog today????
I have a question
say nay if you are there! :)
What kind of theology, PowerMommy?
There is a Mormon church that was built in Bartlett several years ago. I forget what they call it, but it is all white and the Mormon faithful come from many miles away to attend special rituals and services there. I was driving by the church a few months ago and there was a very cold deadness, an oppressive stifling in the air when I stopped nearby the church and gazed upon it. I had that same sense when I drove by Bellevue yesterday. Bellevue Baptist Church is gone, all that is left is a whitewashed sepulcher.
I cried.
mom4,
I am with you.This is a (blog) hug.
concernedsbcer,
I am almost afraid to bring this up....but I think lin is having fun today.... she has not emailed me back...
I am wondering how a non charismatic scripturally sound person would decribe or understand say...the gift of phophesy in today 2007....
MOM4 said...
There is a Mormon church that was built in Bartlett several years ago. I forget what they call it, but it is all white and the Mormon faithful come from many miles away to attend special rituals and services there. I was driving by the church a few months ago and there was a very cold deadness, an oppressive stifling in the air when I stopped nearby the church and gazed upon it. I had that same sense when I drove by Bellevue yesterday. Bellevue Baptist Church is gone, all that is left is a whitewashed sepulcher.
I cried.
5:22 PM, May 28, 2007
Well....given certain behaviors by Bellevue leadership, it seems like they are taking it in that direction.
I watched a special on PBS about Mormonism and came away with it 3 things that Gaines and Co. are doing that is very simular to what the Mormons do.
1. Get rid of the opposition. Those who question authority in the Mormon church is often excommunicated. Simular to what Gaines and Co have done, only Gaines and Co. are more sneakier about it by blackballing people.
2. Mormons do not open the books up to the membership. Gaines and Co. have been documented doing the same thing. (See the audio of Josh Manning trying to obtain financial records and membership lists from Bellevue).
3. Mormons are only considered in good standing in the eyes of leadership if they are tithing and they (Mormon Leadership keeps track of that). Similarly so, Gaines and Co. have been reportedly checking tithing records to see who has and who hasn't tithed. While the bible does require us to tithe, thats something that should really be between that person and God.
As you can see with the three examples above, it seems like Gaines is going down the same road as the Mormons.
Disclaimer: I am NOT implying Gaines is turning Bellevue into a Mormon church. I am just comparing his and leadership's behavior to the mormons.
gmommy,
Thank you for the hug - it was a depressing day of mourning for us. Even my children recognize that the Holy Spirit has left and the walls of protection are down. The world and it's spiritualism has overcome the church and as far as we could tell, there is no lampstand.
Lynn,
Steve Gaines has many faces. He picks and chooses what doctrines and ideas suit his agenda. Perhaps he has taken some ideology from the Mormons, Rick Warren and any other heresay that works to further his own purposes.
I guess it would depend on who you ask as to whether i'm a "theology person" or not :-)
allofgrace,
I know your theology.....share yur knowledge in this area please.
AOG: We trust you....have at it. You are a theology person!
What's the question?
allofgrace,
see 5:28 post to concernedsbcer?
ahh..the gift of prophecy...well there's a variance of opinion on that...some cessationists believe all the gifts of the early church ceased with the completion of the canon of scripture...but that argument aside, let's say the gift of prophecy exists today...there still must be a distinction made between the OT "office" of prophet, and the NT "gift" of prophecy. As the scriptures say we now have a "more sure word." God spoke in former times through the law and prophets, but in these times He has spoken through Jesus Christ who is the fulfillment of ALL things. God has spoken...fully and finally...He speaks to us through His word, illumined by the Holy Spirit to the hearts of His people...not to say there isn't a subjective, experiential side to our union with Christ, but all experience must be judged by the plumb-line of revealed truth...the Holy Scriptures.
I believe the "gift" of prophecy is an empowerment to proclaim with clarity and boldness, in the power of the Holy Spirit, the revelation contained in Scripture...not a new "prophetic word" outside the revelation we already have.
AOG,
You have spoken very well regarding the gift of prophecy. I would like to add one thing, you may disagree, but I doubt it.
I know the argument that the gifts did cease with the revelation of the completed scripture, the Word. I also firmly believe that the divine gifts, whether in OT or NT were only given for the furtherance of the Gospel. Any other experience that is assumed to be a gift, whether it is prophecy, tongues, preaching or teaching, or any others, is in the flesh or of the devil (or both) unless it is given AND USED for its one true purpose and that is to proclaim Jesus Christ alone.
allofgrace,
Thanks,
second post clear....I thought that was right but I know some people that either use it as an excuse to be rude...or think they see or know something that others don't.
I thought it was a boldness to speak God's word...from scripture...
and I am even comfortable (you can tell me if I am wrong)with those that have that spiritural gift being able to do what I call...connect the dots.
Example,I are sharing some experiences or life with a friend and they are able to relate/explain/connect what is going on in light of scripture...where as I just saw random things/events.
I have no idea if I said that in a way that makes sense....
mom4,
Point well made...all things are of Him, to Him and through Him...to His glory alone.
..so only words,thoughts that glorify
Christ clearly can be considered the gift of prophesy....correct??
Only that which lines up with the truth revealed in Scripture...God leads us to do nothing which is contrary to His word...neither word nor deed. When we speak or do according to the clear teachings of Scripture we will glorify Christ, since the Scriptures are all about Him.
gmommy,
I think there are those gifts of discernment that the Lord provides His children. It is not necessarily prophecy, but rather a Holy Spirit recognition of those things of this world and the same Holy Spirit recognition of the "tie that binds" our hearts together. Spiritual discernment is not the same as discernment of spirits, but very close. Either way, one would have to walk with the Lord in His Word and in prayer on an ongoing basis to know either.
I hope no one thinks I am a nut that sees demons in buzzards, because I am not; but rather one who sees darkness in places where there should be Light according to SCRIPTURE.
Very good theology lesson...thank you. I will know how to respond now when it is misunderstood.
Mom4,
You cannot change your name to demonbuzzard!
we already have a turkey buzzard!
A word of caution for Steve Gaines:
Better confess your sins and repent now. The longer you wait, the harder the fall will be. This is a lesson I have learned the hard way. Not only will the fall affect you, it will also affect those closely associated with you as well. Its not enjoyable seeing your friends suffer shame and embarassment because of your actions. Trust me dude, its not fun.
FYI, while I won't discuss my personal experience here, I'm more than willing to share my story with any of you privately, just e-mail me :).
gmommy,
Hardeharhar - I guess I will just have to be plain old mom. I don't want to be perceived as a "weirdo" - radical perhaps, because I believe that if it is not in Scripture, it is not of God.
Reckon if I dreamed about a buzzard, it would make it demonic?
Mom4,
If the dream doesn't line up with scripture and glorify Christ ,you just ate fish tacos!
AW, I thought we had rib bbq today!
fish tacos? Yech! NO wonder I'd be having "dreams".
Fish Tacos? Yuck! I have to down a few Tums just thinking of that!
BTW, please pray for me. I've lost a friend of mine today over stuff I've done in my past. Hence my warning for Gaines.
lynn,
I don't have to have details to pray for you and I will.
Thanks for sharing as much as you did.
In Christ Alone is our Victory.
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