10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Please continue your discussions of the most important issues you see facing Bellevue today. What will it take to restore your trust in our church leadership?
645 comments:
1 – 200 of 645 Newer› Newest»NBBCOF,
That is the saddest cartoon sheep I've ever seen.
Piglet, Oh a "pet cougar" makes me feel so much better! NOT! :)
As far as Warren goes, I understand now how people will be fooled by the anti-Christ.
Someone confirm this for me: Is there still talk of a prayer labrinyth being built on the grounds of BBC? How in the world will that be explained as being remotely Biblical? How many folks will fall for it and say "it's progress" or some other lame mess?
karen
In case it gets lost in the shuffle of moving...
searchingfortruthatbbc said...
Welcome back Don! I would like to ask Mike a question. Do YOU think that everyone who has asked questions at bbc (causing disunity), is void of the Holy Spirit (i.e.,LOST), as we heard preached Sunday PM?
9:26 AM, March 01, 2007
No.
But, then again, that wasn't what was preached "Sunday PM" (sounds like a once-a-week nighttime pain medication: "Ask your doctor if Sunday PM is right for you. Use only as directed.").
Imagine that--a direct answer to a direct question. Your turn, Don.
Trollcakes said...
Ok, Cakes here (dictionary.com),
I love how these pontificating people come here and demand you answer their questions. Don't jump through hoops for people who carry water for leadership they sure as heck won't cross-examine. And these, they that sidestep the most important questions regarding trust, integrity and accountability.
Do this one think before you answer: percieve the purpose of their entering this blog in the first place, then you may discern the benefit or lack thereof of an exchange.
Don't get suckered.
You're giving advice on perception and discernment?
Interesting...
--Mike
Is this Blog about "issues" at Bellevue or a blog on Rick Warren?? Because the two have NO relation to each other!
A good shepherd would not hurt, injure willfully, nor scatter , or be indifferent to even one of God's precious flock.
I hope that answers the question ...
Bellevue's situation is a lot like the story of a woman ( or man ) who was told that in order for her ( or him ) to fully grasp the damage of her ( or his ) unbridled lies and talebearing , she ( or he ) should take a goosedown feather pillow onto a mountain peak, and roughly rip open the pillow case, letting all of the feathers fly into the mountaintop breezes.
Then, 10 minutes later, ...telling her ( or him ) to go now and pick up all of the " feathers " ....this would be the rediculously impossible task of trying to remedy unchecked rumor-mongering and/or false reports.
The same scenario also closely coincides with the illustration of battering GODS sheep...
How many battered sheep does it take for God to be righteously angered?
ONE
The way back from all of the sheep battering is not humanly feasible...it is a giant spirityal mess that indicates fully the initial folly of choosing to promote unswerving loyalty and false unity to men , instead of toward GOD and His TRUTH alone.
There is no way back..with brutish , unrepentant men at the helm.
God alone holds the way back...if He yet even deems a way back within HIS WILL to rescue Bellevue from seemingly certain spiritual collapse.
Pray...Pray
and then ...
Pray some more
The fervent prayer of a righteous man ...availeth MUCH.
We serve a mighty GOD ..who cares and loves each of His sheep of His pasture.
4545
Is this Blog about "issues" at Bellevue or a blog on Rick Warren?? Because the two have NO relation to each other!
Piglet says:
Warren's world view is the way people justify the donation to FUMC. In that way, it does relate.
This is a great passage of scripture. It is there to teach us all that once we are saved, we are always saved. Of late we've seen this passage mistreated. It is trotted out as either a bludgeon directed at those we disagree with or as "proof text" for those who want to justify having a "pity party" for whatever reasons.
This is not the intent of the verse. If you take it down that road, then you are saying that someone who for chooses to leave their church for another fellowship is "lost" and will thus "perish." This is a strange position indeed especially when you consider that at times even apostles chose to go separate ways.
Those among us who are tempted to wallow in the "I'm just a poor little lost sheep" routine... please for your sake and the sake of the kingdom, grow up. That I mean that from a spiritual standpoint. Seek to grow in maturity. Fix your eyes upon Jesus. Don't let disagreements with your brothers and sisters in Christ cause you to lose your focus and your joy.
People?? Again, there is NO relation and Bellevue and Dr. Gaines are LIGHT YEARS away from Rick Warren and Saddle Back.
4545,
I'm interested in the PDC movement - not in a good way. What's the harm in conversing about it? We get slammed for discussing issues at BBC and now we're not. Pick a side. I'm learing a lot about this movement and I'm not necessarily applying it to directly to BBC, so what's the problem?
karen
trust and obey
This is not about disagreements with brothers and sisters. It is about a pastor who has disobeyed thelaw, run off godly men from staff and lay positions, and beat the sheepwith sermons based on twisted theology.
4545
The donation to the apostate church IS in keeping with Warren's world view and the labyrinth, if we get one in the new prayer chapel (if it ever happens as promised TWO love offerings ago)is just another example of New Age infiltrating the church.
trustandobey wrote: "This is a great passage of scripture. It is there to teach us all that once we are saved, we are always saved. Of late we've seen this passage mistreated. It is trotted out as either a bludgeon directed at those we disagree with or as "proof text" for those who want to justify having a "pity party" for whatever reasons."
Huh? What scripture?
karen wrote:
"4545,
"I'm interested in the PDC movement - not in a good way. What's the harm in conversing about it? We get slammed for discussing issues at BBC and now we're not. Pick a side. I'm learing a lot about this movement and I'm not necessarily applying it to directly to BBC, so what's the problem?"
Karen, Mr. Deacon seems to get his knickers in a knot whenever people get a little too close to the truth. Not to worry though. This too shall pass.
NASS
That is what I thought Lindon. What scripture is she/he referring to?
???
How often do you find in your Bible, Jesus walking a labyrinth? When you find this, please post it here so I can read it. Where do you find mention in the Bible of a labyrinth at all? When you find it, please post it here so I can read it too.
In the meantime, read about a labyrinth right here.
I want no part of the PDL. The membership oaths are unbiblical at least!!!!
BTW Karen & NASS, ya'll got e-mail :)
4545 said...
Is this Blog about "issues" at Bellevue or a blog on Rick Warren?? Because the two have NO relation to each other!
4:36 PM, March 01, 2007
545,
Why are you here?
NBBCOF...
Oh my! I am reminded of the old adage, "A picture is worth a thousand words" in viewing your little lost sheep leading to this thread. This breaks my heart. Do you think of the names of those who are lost from their church in looking at this little lost sheep? I feel like I AM this little sheep. How many of you feel like you are this little sheep? The tear falling from his/her face...this tells a story. Our hearts are broken from the abuse received at the hands of the leadership in these churches...yes the PDC/CGM churches!!!
You know...I would think these guys in leadership would WANT to lay this off on something...the purpose driven drible, the church growth movement...something; an excuse for doing what they have done. Surely they wouldn't want people/members to think this is their normal nature...to treat people like this? If they blame it on something, at least they could say it wasn't their doing couldn't they?
You people on the other side of the camp...look really good at the little sheep every time you come to this thread. You are coming in here to talk to the people that the little sheep represents. Think about that!
Labyrinths:
A WALK to LIFE ?
OR
A WALK to DEATH ?
Must read for discerning Beleivers
http://www.erwm.com/TheLabyrinth.htm
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Eph. 4: 31,32
2005 National Pastors Convention
had mysticism front and center
including, but not limited to
Labyrinth, and a yoga workshop
details:
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/nationalpastors.htm
4545 said...
People?? Again, there is NO relation and Bellevue and Dr. Gaines are LIGHT YEARS away from Rick Warren and Saddle Back.
4:42 PM, March 01, 2007
4545,
I know people referred to you as Deacon. Are you a Deacon?
I do not agree with your above statement. There are many PDL activities at BBC. I do not believe that BBC is a full blown PDL church.
Remember, what one generation accepts in moderation, the next generation accepts in excess.
Lindon said...
Huh? What scripture?
5:04 PM, March 01, 2007
The one that leads off this thread -- about the ninety-and-nine.
And I'd be interested in hearing your discourse on whether it is being used in or out of context as posted.
Question: Has anyone ever been on a mission trip and seen the "man of peace" idea really work?
See Acts 16:31
Lindon...
Think she/he is talking about this one-it leads off this thread.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
"...Bellevue and Dr. Gaines are LIGHT YEARS away from Rick Warren and Saddle Back."
Maybe just maybe, but he WAS, in fact, shoulder-to-shoulder with a pedophile. Defend that.
Just say'n.
Padroc, you're too kind. Tashi delek.
I thank you too, Karen. I hope all is well.
Lindon,
Will never forget...one of the first messages, if not THE first, that our new pastor preached, he mentioned this passage. He told us that we were in for a rough ride...that there would be some changes. He told us that we would lose some folks, but that would be alright...we would get some more to take their places.
I knew for certain then that there were problems ahead. Little did I know just how bad they would be.
I don't have all the answers as to what has happened to the 'men of the cloth'. I wonder sometimes if this has become a profession instead of a calling. CEOs instead of pastors. That would certainly explain why the churches are beiing conducted more like businesses and have become so worldly. One can hardly tell the difference from coming into the church from off the street from being on the street...it is just about one and the same now days. The churces vary...some are more worldy than others. Thing is...if Jesus were by your side in the flesh...would you want to take him to your church?
Ima
The attitude seems to be that these sheep are expendable. It seems that some believe God only loves the lost and as long as we are reaching them, we can abuse the sheep. Or at the least starve the mature sheep on the baby food that is served to lure in the lost or immature christians. Feeding the sheep what they need may mean the sermon is not "palatable" to the lost.
Why don't these guys just become evangelists instead of pastors if they do not have a pastor's heart?!!
On expendable sheep:
Hear The Word of The LORD
Jeremiah 23:1-8
1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. 3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
I heard of the story on K-Love and it was posted on their website I believe last year, someone may remember this too. I do not remember it word for word.I think the year was 1849 in A baptist church in Ohio, there was a man there who was hiding a run away slave and his church people told him are you hiding a run away slave he said yes, because he did not believe any should be a slave anymore because Jesus has set us free from the slavery of sin. I can not remember what they did to him the first time, but second time I believe it was they took his children, and all his property and cast him out of church as they did not count him a member anymore. There was no mention of a wife. his children were given to relatives all over the country, his man died 7 years latter poor. they said the story of Uncle Tom's Cabin came from him. The year this story came out, the church did say they were sorry to the family, they envited them over, they said the family way back then were very angery at the family being split up like that and never got over it. But the family was very happy for the church saying sorry. and they did a whole STUPID!!! play as he was never kicked out of church, and put his name back, on the church member ship. again I say STUPID play!!
I hope no one is offened I called said stupid to a play. there is more but it is no big deal. Just a little more details and more stupid talk.
noname,
I don't get it.
DON said...
A good shepherd would not hurt, injure willfully, nor scatter , or be indifferent to even one of God's precious flock.
Actually, literal, real-world shepherds have a method of dealing with sheep that tend to wander away or otherwise get themselves in trouble. Perhaps you've heard the reference?
They take such a sheep, and break one of that sheep's legs, then carry the sheep around while the leg mends. The sheep, after being able to walk again, never strays far from the shepherd.
I hope that answers the question ...
No, because this was the question I keep trying to get you to answer:
From your post up there, it appears as if anyone who disagrees with you and yours is either:
1) Satan. (And no, I'm not referring to Miroslav Satan of the New York Islanders.)
2) A demon, or "a devil." (And no, I'm not referring to the New Jersey Devils.)
3) Someone under the volitional control of Satan. (And no, I'm not referring to hockey fans in general.)
Again--are one, or all, of those three options what you intended to communicate?
--Mike
New BBC Open Forum said...
noname,
I don't get it.
7:53 PM, March 01, 2007
It is just another story of big mistakes churches make, regardless of the size. This church is still a small church now. Just look at the mess of BBC.
"I hope no one is offened."
What, for butchering the English lanquage? Nah, don't worry about it.
In response:
MEESSAAAA CHICKOBEEEE...ogah babba diddy dibby boosly wadda we!
umma googa? Iba dibba dabba; Chickapee, cicka pee.
Proverbs 16;5
Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
So much for the false gospel of self love, self worth, self esteem , and self realization
God resisteth the proud...
But exalteth the Humble
imaresistor said...
"I don't have all the answers as to what has happened to the 'men of the cloth'. I wonder sometimes if this has become a profession instead of a calling. CEOs instead of pastors. That would certainly explain why the churches are beiing conducted more like businesses and have become so worldly. One can hardly tell the difference from coming into the church from off the street from being on the street...it is just about one and the same now days."
Ima, perhaps you can clarify...surely you don't mean to paint ALL pastors/ministers and churches with this broad brush? I have known and served with many fine pastors who do not treat their churches like a business, and love and care for all of their sheep--including staff.
Guys, I believe the verses in Matthew 18:10+ go back to the question in verse 1: Who is the greatest?
Matthew 18
1At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" 2And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Then Jesus lays out some teaching on this:
5"Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin,[a] it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Little child refers to a believer...so we are responsible if we cause other believers to sin (ouch)
verses 7-9 HE is teaching about temptations to sin. So...He is building up to verse 10+:
10"See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven. 12What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
If you think back to the question they asked in verse 1: Who is the greatest...this follows along that thinking...the one who wanders away is as important as the ones there.
I think Jesusn was teaching that every believer, however obscure or lowly is precious to God. To have fellowship with the lowly is to honor God. Also, we should not despise any who come to Him in a childlike spirit. (Matt 18:5). Jesus places same value on the lowliest. We are to treat them as equals in Christ.
I personally think it is clear that this is a continuation of the Who is greatest quesiton in verse 1.
I think there is more to it but I would like to do some study on it.
Dear me...the typos in that last post are atrocious. I was typing real fast. I do know how to spell...well...sometimes...:o)
Years ago maybe in 2003, I saw a webiste saying what is happening to churches now. I do not remember exactly what was said. but here is what I remember they are becoming places for amumsement, more than seeking the lost. Yes that person was talking about Mega churches. I think of GBC a coffee shop in the church building why? we should be going out to the lost, thought now we may find more people who go there for what they have to enjoy. I know BBC has exercise equipment. Again we should be going out so that we could meet new people, do you know when you express you heart to people they see you understand their stuggles in their life they maybe more open to the gospel. First command love the L-RD your G-d, second love your neighbor as yourself. but we are also commanded to love our enemies. I do believe that going out to do evangelism is good thought, but so is making new friends and showing them the love of Jesus. like the song says " It is all about saving grace, being Jesus to those he came to save..."
I think that mega churches are just to big. It is like I said before they do not know you and they do not care, since they don't know you they will utter lies about anyone they want to and you will not know they are lies. Oooh you are doing good, not evil.
Uh Oh, I forgot to mention in verse 5, it is believed that this also refers to people who persecute Christians. Sorry, I left that out.
"Question: Has anyone ever been on a mission trip and seen the "man of peace" idea really work?
See Acts 16:31
6:16 PM, March 01, 2007 "
Acts 16:
25About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bonds were unfastened. 27When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28But Paul cried with a loud voice, "Do not harm yourself, for we are all here." 29And the jailer[f] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.
I am not sure what you are referencing here?
Don: Ezekial 34, too
Christian buddies, I was reading Psalms tonight and read this one...
Psalm 2
The Reign of the LORD's Anointed
1Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
2The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his anointed, saying,
3"Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us."
4He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6"As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill."
Check out verse 4. God laughs at those who plot evil.
Isn't scripture something? I never noticed this before...
here are the words to a new song on K-love:
Jason Gray - Blessed Be
From the album All The Lovely Losers
Losers
All the lovely losers
Never thought you’d hear your name
Outside
Always on the outside
Empty at the wishing well
But time will tell
Chorus:
Blessed Be
The ones who know that they are weak
They shall see
The kingdom come to the broken ones
Blessed be
Thirsty
Like you’re drinking from a salt sea
But one day you’ll be satisfied
Hungry
For the taste of mercy
Aching just to have your fill
One day you will
Chorus:
Not for the strong, beautiful the brave
Not for the ones who think they’ve got it made
It’s for the poor, broken and meek
It’s for the ones who look a lot like you and me
Chorus: (2x’s)
Blessed Be
Losers
All the lovely losers
uJust catching up tonite on late last nite's post and todays.
AMOS, Sorry to hear you are leaving us, you will be missed, please come back when/if you feel
you can.
NASS, I have felt that sheeps pain as I know most all of us here have.
Ima, thanks for the inf. on the Lab.
DON & ALPHA SENIOR
THANKS FOR WARMING MY HEART WITH REMEMBERANCE OF THESE SONGS. DON, WE USED TO SING THAT AT BELLEVUE, BUT IT WENT BYEBYE, I GUESS. ALPHA SENIOR WE USED TO SING "GIVE ME THAT OLD TIME RELIGION" AT THE SMALL BAPTIST CHURCH WHERE I GREW UP.
I will sleep well tonite, just thinking of these songs..hope you all do.
DON said...
Oh VICTORY ...in JESUS
My Saviour Forever,
He sought Me ..
and Bought Me
With His redeeming Blood...
He loved ere' I knew Him..
and all My Love is due Him
He plunged me to Victory...
Beneath the cleansing flood.
All Glory and Honour to the Father for His great and prescious gift of His only Son ..The Lord Jesus Christ ..who was crushed and died in my place.
10:55 AM, March 01, 2007
alphasenior said...
Words & Music: Adapted from an African-American spiritual by Charles D. Till¬man,1889 Lexington, South Carolina.
Give me that old time religion,
Give me that old time religion,
Give me that old time religion,
It’s good enough for me.
David (tc), is this paragraph you used from the movie "Nell"?
"MEESSAAAA CHICKOBEEEE...ogah babba diddy dibby boosly wadda we!
umma googa? Iba dibba dabba; Chickapee, cicka pee."
8:09 PM, March 01, 2007
*********
If I'm wrong, please don't laugh too hard.
Dee
P.S. (Checkin' up on the blog while doing A LOT of reading on PDL and all these other great links, books and other stuff y'all gave me--thank you very much.)
Piglet said, "Why don't these guys just become evangelists instead of pastors if they do not have a pastor's heart?!!"
Yes...or why don't they 'get' what the Word says to start with? I really do think they spend more time in reading what 'man' writes that in what God has written. :(
And that ain't good!
Ima
I was reading in a Bible study workbook based on "The Incredible Power of Kingdom Authority" which was written by Dr. Rogers and on page 38 of that workbook there were some statements that really stuck out about the role of Pastor.
"The pastor is to have a place of strong leadership, but not to be without accountability. The pastor and other church leaders still must submit to the over-arching authority of the whole body because JESUS is the HEAD of the body."
"Woe to pastors who have such a sense of self-importance that they become authoritarian and fail to listen and to learn. Such attitudes show immaturity and fear. The true leader does not call honest questions and discussion "sowing discord"
Reading these statements and then looking at the situation at Bellevue now....Gaines is doing exactly the opposite of how a pastor should behave.
NBBCOF said, "I don't get it."
Me neither UNLESS he is trying to say once it is done it is done. What an insult to this man to go back and apologize AFTER his death! They were a day late and a dollar short. Don't let the sun go down on your wrath.
Did I get it?
padroc said...
...
Be encouraged! Those with an argument are always at the mercy of those with experience.
A remarkably subjectivist thing to say, and something I hope you didn't give due consideration to before you tapped it out on your keyboard.
Are we to understand that personal experience always trumps objective truth?
My meaning is that not everyone with an argument has the requisite experience to back up their expressed, maybe even, appropriated wisdom.
Which doesn't match up with what you tapped out on your keyboard.
Something tells me your life experiences have provided you with a rather significant array of wisdom inducing situations. Any way, in my opinion, I find that your discernment, regardless of your relationship, or lack there of, to Almighty God through Christ; is most often right on the mark.
Let me ask your indulgence, "padroc." Would you mind reading through that last paragraph, and tell me if you think you might have glossed over something of significance?
Mucho obligado.
--Mike
"Woe to pastors who have such a sense of self-importance that they become authoritarian and fail to listen and to learn. Such attitudes show immaturity and fear. The true leader does not call honest questions and discussion "sowing discord"
That's good stuff, koragg. Thanks for posting it here.
Hey socwork. Still without the car, but forgiving you none the less... ;)
Sheeplessatbbc...
Don't you just love the old songs? The one that chokes me up today I heard when just a small child in the little country church which still stands today. What a Friend We Have in Jesus. I can close my eyes and see my grandmother belting that one out. It was her favorite. And the tiny little lady who wore her hair in 'waves' with combs all put up on her head just rocking back and forth as she pumped that old pump organ as hard as she could...singing to the top of her voice too. I was little, but I used to think she was going to fall off that little round stool. :) What memories. My grandfather donated the land and built the church. His heart and soul was in that place. Funny thing about that...in the deed is a clause that states the church is never to become a part of the Southern Baptist Convention and if it does, it reverts back to the heirs. Don't know why he did that, but he was a smart fellow. :) Just recently the people of that church today approached me about going to the SBC. After all these years. But anyway...back to the song. Indeed, what a friend we have in Jesus! Oh, for those times!
Glad you're not holding a grudge, oc :)
socwork,
remember, forgiveness is a process... still processing...;)
Imaresistor,
Either you or Lindon told me the other day to go to pastors.com, then to Pastor's Forum and register, and log in. In "General Information" go to the category of "Transitioning Churches". Personally, at this point I saw a lot of interesting looking topics, so I chose "When Transitioning Isn't a Good Idea". Lord have mercy on us all!!!!!!
I am tempted at this point to ask Steve Gaines a few very direct questions, but I think I will exercise something I learned from the Word of God and bridle my tongue. This should be in a letter to him. All I can say right now is EVERYBODY SHOULD GO TO PASTORS.COM AND DO A LITTLE LISTENING TO THE DISCUSSIONS AND QUESTIONS BEING ASKED. You just might get some cold water in your face like I just did.
Ima, are you familiar with the PDL/ECM idea of taking an established church's vision statement and somehow connecting the "Five Purposes(Mandates)" to it so that the congregants are least likely to notice or object? These people are really trying to slip this in, not only at large churches/denoms across the country--but at the smaller ones, too. I have honestly never run across anything in my life that makes the Spirit in me stand up any more than this does.
Don't be lazy, Brothers, Sisters, and Friends. This is vitally important in the body of Christ. Even if you see no harm in what you already have been taught in the 40 Days of Purpose/Purpose Driven Life material, go to the above website and look around and see if you still feel the same when you come out of there.
JESUS IS LORD!!
Dee
Here are directions which will take you to pastors.com to read what Dee is talking about. I pray you will take the time to do this.
Go to http://www.pastors.com …, then to Pastor’s Forum and register if you haven’t. After you register, log in. You will see a General Information Thread. You will see all kinds of interesting threads, but pass them all up and scroll down to the 18th row to Transitioning Churches. Click on it. Obviously you will come to the Transitioning Churches Thread. Go to the very bottom of this thread and go to the next page. Scroll down to the 7th row to ‘Step 6-Dealing with Opposition’. Start reading. You probably are not going to want to stop reading. After you have read this, pick and choose whatever you want to read. I would suggest for starters, stay with the Transitioning thread and read that. When I first found this site, I couldn’t stop reading. It all started adding up. Let me know if you need more help in getting to this. Just a note…Dan Southerland is the author of the book, ‘Transitioning-Leading Your Church Through Change’ and also the President and Owner of Transitioning, Inc. These seminars are held around the country and at Saddleback. The book and business are endorsed by Rick Warren, obviously. He wrote the foreword for the book. I cannot stress enough how much reading Transitioning by Dan Southerland and The Purpose Driven Church would aid in your understanding of what is happening. This website I have just provided will too.
Ima,
Taking a deep breath...holding it...here I go again...this time to "Step 6".
Dee
Lord help us! I couldn't stomach reading that forum. I literally scares the daylight out of me to think those people might be pastors or leaders in a church.
musicguy said, "Ima, perhaps you can clarify...surely you don't mean to paint ALL pastors/ministers and churches with this broad brush?"
No, of course not. But they are few in number I am afraid. The church growth movements are a priority with the pastors these days. The Southern Baptist Convention is a huge problem in that they are promoting it. Lifeway is promoting material that not only condones this, but encourages it. This is a serious situation, and I pray that the level of awareness will grow rapidly and that people will recognize the problem and tackle it.
There is a True Church Conference taking place in Muscle Shoals, Alabama in May. Jeff Noblit is pastor-teacher of First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals. The emphasis is on conversion. I am not a member there and have no reason to 'push' this conference other than I feel it would be worth anybody's time to go. It is open to anybody who would like to attend. Bro. Noblitt is one of very few pastors today who I feel is not among those who encorporate the church growth movement practices in his church. He does not water down the gospel.
So, music guy, it is with a broken heart that I even discuss this problem rampant in our churches today. We need desperately to stay in prayer for these pastors who have adhered to this watered down gospel. May God in heaven forgive them and may the scales be lifted from their eyes.
ima,
You've told us about this before, but I never got around to reading it until tonight. I'm still shaking -- literally. If this is truly the state of many churches (and the attitudes of their so-called pastors) today, we are in deep, deep... trouble.
Kind of ironic, don't you think, they call the site "pastors.com," and yet they refer to "shooting wolves" and other euphemisms for ways they mistreat their sheep while patting each other on the back for their kills. No one's arguing (I don't think) that there aren't at least a few members in every church who, regardless of the integrity and compassion of the pastor, would try the patience of Job. However, it's the established, Bible-saavy Christians they're "shooting," the ones with the discernment to see what's happening in their churches and dare to question "God's anointed and appointed."
Thank you for providing that information. This should be required reading for everyone!
I can't believe I'm still awake and reading this Pastors.com/Transitioning thread, BUT I am. Right now, I am so agitated that I may not be able to go to sleep tonight. "Killing the wolves"!!!!!!!!! Then another post after that from one of these leaders stated only as "BANG". That would be US that he was shooting at, Brothers and Sisters. You'd better read it, even though it is indescribably alarming, scary, and upsetting.
Ima, thanks for more info. I may just have to go to that True Church Conference in Muscle Shoals after all. We need to do everything we can to learn all we can so we can do what we can.
JU, I'm with you, buddy. My socks are already blown completely off my feet and have unholy damage done to them. Be brave.
Listen, y'all, I am not coming back tonight to this blog because it is way too late. I am going to go pray and do some reading of the Word. If I don't, I will lie wide-awake all night. I know me. We must sound the alarm.
THIS IS ANOTHER GREAT REASON FOR THIS BLOG--SOUNDING ALARMS!!!
THANK YOU, LORD JESUS. YOU ARE LORD OF ALL. THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BUT YOU.
AMEN AND HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!
Dee
I hit the hay early last night so I am just now catching up. I read Pastors.com several weeks ago, when Ima sent us there before, and was deeply troubled and angry....and many other emotions. I've been passionate about it ever since. You can't read those threads and not be impacted. Sign of the times or not, the remnant has got to stand together against this.
Hey, Ima...where is that church that can't be SBC? We might need to check it out......
Soc and oc.....the car again? *sigh* I thought we were going to meet at Starbucks and work this whole thing out????
Every last member of every last Church in America should read that piece on pastors.com.
May we make that a prayer and priority!!!!!
NBBCOF
Praise God...you now have seen the blueprinys of these brutes.
Expose evil in the piercing light.
"blueprints "
I did a quick search on google, and found that ther are tons of sites with identical instructions on how to " transition " ( Baptist )churches..and others..
One such that stood out is located at the following URL...
read it and weep :
http://stateofthechurch.com/Articles/transitionanestablishedchurch.htm
Then get righteously indignant.
And Stand
Wow...
You thought you had seen it all..
I just found an interview with Dr Frank Page...of SBC fame
In this interview he is asked about how he personally transitioned two established churches..and gives " advice" to pastors in the " middle " of transitioning an established Church ..
Bellevue members will not want to miss this interview...
http://www.sbcoutpost.com/2006/11/12/transitioning-finale/
We don't drink wine not because the Bible supports our "tee-toller" position but because we can't hold the wine. The problem is not that the Bible is inerrant or that the wine is strong but that we are afraid of it! So we devise the rules.
We need new wine skins if we are going to drink the new wine of the Spirit!
If you haven't yet sprung out of your computer station, ...the following will certainly add some jet fuel to your ride.
The whole concept of " hang on to your " VISION ".. IS A CRITICALLY IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THE TRANSITIONING CHURCHES MOVEMENT.
The following article goes into the philosophies and some of the men who have championed this utopian vision model, and why Biblical Christianity needs to wake up and smell the sulphur.
link is below :
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2002/change_agent-1.htm
Talk about an aqua-velva treatment!
seems that Bellevue is a church that could use some sort of transition
A look at How Abusive Ministries defend themselves:
A comprehensive look at some of the most familiar of the methods and stratagems of " how to isolate, intimidate ,and attack those who "resist "
http://voiceofreform.blogspot.com/2006/01/how-abusive-ministries-defend.html
Oh Victory in Jesus , My Savious Forever
He sought me , and bought Me , with His redeeming Blood
He loved ere' I knew Him
And all my Love ..is due Him
He plunged me ...
To VICTORY
Beneath the cleansing FLOOD.
My Dear Jesus promised:
" I will NEVER leave you , nor Forsake you."
I will not be afraid...
The Fear of THE LORD is the beginning of Wisdom
The fear of man bringeth a snare.
From the foreword to Tamara Hartzells' Free online book...IN THE NAME OF PURPOSE..SACRIFICING ' TRUTH " ON THE ALTAR OF UNITY
If you wan to know the real spiritual root of all of the transitioning of Churches..
In The Name of Purpose:
Sacrificing Truth on the Altar of Unity
by Tamara Hartzell, 2006
"Today's Christianity may be having a lot of fun in its new way of thinking and behaving, but this isn't a game. Eternal souls are at stake, and the departure from the faith is real. Jesus Christ is being presented as a way of relativism rather than as the way and the truth, and the faith is being presented as an ever-changing method or experience that can be inserted into any faith." (In the Name of Purpose, p. 385)
Simply being a Christian does not automatically immunize us from deception. Scripture's numerous warnings are meant to be heeded. If Christians couldn't be deceived, then the Holy Spirit would be wrong about those who will "depart from the faith" (see 1 Timothy 4:1).
Sadly, this departure from the faith will be so great that the Lord Jesus Christ asks us to consider whether He will actually find faith on the earth when He returns (see Luke 18:8). Since Christians today are trading in the truth of the faith for interfaith unity and are falling for the false gospel of the (New Age) New Spirituality that says all religions are equally valid paths to God, it's no wonder the Lord Jesus Christ asked this.
The universal religion with its spiritual transformation is not coming; it is here. The Angel of light's kingdom is gathering together "all men of peace" from "every world religion" "as the embodiment of the emerging Kingdom of God on earth."* In this emerging interfaith kingdom there is:
"One Truth," yet many theologies;
"One God," yet many paths;
"One Church," yet many expressions; and
"One Divine Life," yet many 'little Christs.'
Despite its deceived claims that its message hasn't changed, today's Christianity is embracing the teachings of the counterfeit kingdom. As a result, it is being steadily transitioned away from Jesus Christ, the Rock of Offence, to the universal "Christ" who broadly accepts people within all religions/faiths. Its purposeful pursuit of unity with the world truly is uniting today's Christianity with the world.
"The religion of the future will be a general converging of religions in a universal Christ that will satisfy all ... In the end, it is hoped that the Christian will become a better Christian and each Hindu a better Hindu." —Jesuit theologian Father Jacques Dupuis, at the 2003 interfaith congress "The Future of God"*
"The Christ has no religious barriers in His consciousness. It matters not to Him of what faith a man may call himself." —Alice Bailey & Djwhal Khul*
"I happen to know people who are followers of Christ in other religions." —Rick Warren*
"He ['the Christ'] inaugurated the new era and ... the new world religion began to take form. The word 'religion' concerns relationship ..." —Alice Bailey & Djwhal Khul*
"I have known many people who believe in the Messiah of Jesus, regardless of what religion they are, because they believe in him. It's about a relationship, not a religion." —Rick Warren*
"The day is dawning when all religions win [sic] be regarded as emanating from one great spiritual source; all will be seen as unitedly providing the one root out of which the universal world religion will inevitably emerge. Then there will be neither Christian nor heathen, neither Jew nor Gentile, but simply one great body of believers, gathered out of all the current religions." —Alice Bailey & Djwhal Khul*
"I thought, you know where people are moving in they probably need new houses of worships, temples, and synagogues, and churches, and stuff like that." —Rick Warren*
"The church is bigger than any organization in the world. Then you add in Muslims, you add in Hindus, you add in all the different religions, and you use those houses of worship as distribution centers, not just for spiritual care but health care." —Rick Warren*
"I could take you today to a million villages ... they got a church. Or they got a synagogue. They got something. They got a house of worship. The church is the biggest organization in the world.... And I came up with a thing called the P.E.A.C.E. Plan. When Jesus sent the disciples out, he said, 'When you go into a village, you find the man of peace.' Now this person doesn't have to be a Christian.... You find the person of peace, and then you begin to do the P.E.A.C.E. Plan ... Now why am I telling this to you? Because we're going public with it this next year in 2006.... And I believe it will change the world." —Rick Warren*
Yes, change is the order of the day.
Truth becomes the sacrifice:
when absolutism is out, and relativism is in;
when obedience is out, and pragmatism is in;
when teaching is out, and dialogue is in;
when thus saith the Lord is out, and consensus of opinion is in;
when using Scripture to judge right and wrong is out, and unity with tolerance at all costs is in;
when the narrow way is out, and the broad way is in.
While Christians have slumbered, the new way of thinking and acting has been built up underneath the old, leaving the old to crumble virtually without notice.
It used to be that faithfulness to God
turned the world upside down.
Now faithfulness to the world
is turning Christianity upside down.
Two Paths, ...Two Christs...Two Kingdoms...Two Eternities...
by Tamara Hartzell
http://www.crossroad.to/charts/two-paths.htm
You know the sad fact that I have come to realize after reading some of these threads on Transitioning is that BBC didn't and doesn't need to be transitioned from or to anything. It wasn't in decline prior to SG however it may well be now. It had great mission work. Great outreach. If somebody seriously thought BBC was in need of a transition they were sadly mistaken. Dr. Rogers didn't leave the BBC ship listing on the verge of sinking.
TruthBTold,
You don't see any value in what he's posting? Do you see the parallels to what is happening in our own church?
John 8 : 42-45
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: F19 for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
1st Kings 18: 21
And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions ? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
The critically important Doctrine
of Jesus Christ , and not only hearing, but doing the WILL of God The Father.
Matthew 7:21-29
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Under the same "Transitioning" thread spoken of above, see first thread on list--"Be on the lookout."
Pastors.com quote
Part of the process is what we cal "guarding the gate." It means that you do not let the opposition walk through the doors and join the church without understanding fully who they are and what they have done in their previous church life.
I woke up after a couple of years of opposition and realized that just a year or so ago, I had welcomed the oppostion into the church. Somehow deep down inside I knew that these folks would probably cause trouble but I mistakenly thought that I could change them and that they wouldn't cause trouble in my church. Don't make the same mistake...guard the gate.
response: why are many of you disturbed of these comments. Keep the wolves out! No need for divisive people in the church, too many unsaved people out there. Let the wolves form their own church.
Perhaps some of you are disturbed because some of you would be considered wolves and your ego is hurt that you would not be welcome somewhere. Perhaps? Only my opinion.
Question: How would you all define a wolve? How should a church deal with a wolve?
I have seen two arguments here, one says out with unity, the other says keep all the sheep together. Im confused.
pastor.com quote
I took me almost 20 years of ministry to get this - but it has really been a help for the last 10 years of ministry since learning it.
Anyone who comes to your church mad at their former pastor or at their former church will be mad at you within a couple of years! God has not fixed them, and you will not fix them either. Why is that? Because they do not want to be fixed! They thrive on creating conflict and controversy. They believe their role is to oppose everything that comes up whether they really oppose it or not.
Glen said it well - this is why we must guard the gate of who comes in.
By the way - your greatest critics are rarely those you lead to Christ. They are almost always people who come from another church with a chip on their shoulder, daring you to knock it off.
response: what is wrong with that statement?
thought,
Pastors.com is a sight for pastors, it is none of our business.
We cant empathize with the battles those men face. I guess this what most of them are talking about. These wolves show up at different churches and start picking apart and criticizing.
"How would you all define a wolve?"
Wolve? As in Wolve River?
I'm the one who wrote "Be on the lookout". You can contact me at dee.lauderdale@gmail.com with any comments. You can also check out my blog www.guypod.org to see what I've said on the subject.
Dee
Blessed subtractions:
How one Church voted to kick out 165 of its'members for not following in lockstep with its' hireling.
http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor55.htm
Blessed Subtractions Home Page
http://www.blessedsubtractions.com/
Recently started Forum for those who have not willingly embraced the Purpose Driven model and have rather clung to the sure foundational and timeless Truth of Gods Word.
"Dee,"
You must make your profile visible, or your comment(s) will be deleted. Also, we have another Dee who already posts, so you may want to change your screen name to something different to avoid confusion.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
I'll be glad to if you can tell me how. I'll also sign my full name so there will be no confusion.
Dee Lauderdale
There was a time, not too long ago, when you could enter any SBC church and know what they believe, how they believe, and Whom they believe. Everyone was on the same page. Now, it seems, you must question and research before you enter, and even then must enter at your own peril. Trust is gone, and it rips my guts out that brotherhood is also gone as a result.
That being said, it is a reminder not to put trust in men, a congregation, or a denomination. You know the rest...
Dee,
Click on the little orange "B" in the upper lefthand corner of the front page. Then click on "Edit profile." On that page check "Show my profile." Save changes, and you're done. You don't have to give an e-mail address or show your name or other information. That's up to you.
NBBCOF
truthbtold,
you object to don, but not bob barker? what up wit dat?
This is from a blog of a well known pastor of a well known mega church. Take a good hard look at what his doctrine for salvation and tell me what is missing:
Monday, February 19, 2007
Q. How can I know for sure that I am saved?
A. I think a good place to start for this question is Romans 10:9: “If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So if you have confessed that Jesus is the Lord of your life and that you believe that He rose from the dead to save us from our sins, this verse says you are saved. Another good verse is 1 John 5:13: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” This passage clearly tells us that if we believe in Jesus we have eternal life.
The Bible makes the topic of salvation really clear. Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved (John 3:16; Acts 16:31). Do you believe Jesus is your Savior and that He died for your sins? Do you trust Him alone for your salvation? If you answered yes, then you are saved!
Now, I know this pastor. And I know that those who go to him in love and ask about the missing parts of his doctrine will be labeled as 'wolves' and divisive. Why? Because the 'full gospel' offends and does not bring in seekers. Folks, that is how bad it is.
Matthew 5;11
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Matthew 5;12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
truthbtold,
you don't agree with Don, so you call him 'unbalanced'. Can't he have an opinion?
You have a problem with his name-calling, and admit that Gaines uses those tactics. You call on the moderator to censor Don. Who will you call on to censor Gaines?
Personal testimony: When people gave me the book PDL, I was not offended by anything I read. I was not offended by Rob Bell, Billy Hybels, Ken Blanchard, Bob Buford, Charles Stanley, Don Miller (except his politics) etc.
But when someone quoted scripture to me in context, I would get offended and even try to argue that is NOT what it really means.
Why?
Because the Word is like a sword. It divides. It does not bring peace. It is about love but not tolerant of everything. It is about Wrath, Sin, Justice, Repentance, Regeneration, Propitation, Atonement, Justification and Unmerited Grace.
The full gospel offends.
My offense at pure scipture was a wake up call to me. The Lord was convicting me of sin with His truth and bringing me out of following mere men. These were truths I had a hard time with. He is still convicting me of my sin with His Truth and showing me how Narrow the Gate really is.
The Word works.
Grace and Peace.
Psalm 94: 22
But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.
And......On a much lighter note:
30 days til opening Day
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=681
Dr. Rogers sermon on Apostacy promoted on Christian Research Network
"Paul said that though Christ may be preached with wrong motives any, he rejoices because at least He is being preached."
Motives is different than doctrine.
Full counsel of God (see Acts)
truthbtold
I have lurked off and on these last few days. Can I just ask you a question or two?
Are you a Bellevue member?
I don't know Don but would like to discuss a phrase of his:
"concennsus building dialogue, re-imagining Christianity, labyrinth walking , ceterring prayer, enterring the silence, or breath prayers "
Regardless of any big names that may or may not be attached to any of these practices, do you believe this is part of true christianity that Jesus would be apart of or New Age infiltrating the church?
The Spirit of Jesus has been convicting me about the affect my participation on this blog has on my abiding realtionship with him and my walk in holiness. So, I am going to disengage myself permanently from here.
I realize that views like those espoused by Don bring up a lot of old wounds from my upbringing in an extremely hyper-fundalism type church where all I heard were the ad hominem attacks against all those who didn't agree with our every jot and tittle both scripturally and behaviorally. Wrongly, it has caused me to respond at times in a way that I would rather not.
So, I am going to depart and remove my account from this blogsite.
Sola Christos!!
truthbtold
Does it bother you that Rick Warren has given his blessing to Obama who is a smooth talking liberal who supports abortion in all nine months of pregnancy, homosexual marriage, and the hate crimes bill to muzzle pastors who preach the Bible?
Is he not dangerous?
A lttle of the truth mixed with error and abominations (according to God) IS evil, I would think. Simply because it DOES lead so many astray who are seeking the truth of God's word.
Rogers endorsed the PDL book, which by itself, may have drawn many to Christ. But Warren's actions align him with those who are praching the "one-world" religion. He has joined forces with those in opposition to Christ. This is wrong.
This is also the same mindset that accepts a donation to an apostate church to help "feed the poor".
Dr.Rogers always said helping the poor without giving them the true Bread of Life is like "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic".
He would oppose Rick Warren's PEACE plan which attempts to unite those who follow after false gods with true believers.
Satan is subtle and very crafty.
Dear Don,
I have just loved your posts. Any chance I could obtain your email address?
Blessings,
James Sundquist
Director
Rock Salt Publishing
EVERYONE!!!
PLEASE TAKE NOTE THAT MY SCREEN NAME IS 2006huldah.
DO NOT CONFUSE ME WITH THE SCREEN NAME "dee" or with posts that are signed by Dee Lauderdale.
Thank you,
Dee Richardson (2006huldah)
Newcomers:
truthbtold is upset that his favorite book and its' false gospel advocate was described in the light of truth yesterday.
From yesterdays forum discussion:
truthbetold :
Your blogger information shows you find Catholic mystic Brennan Mannings book a " favorite "of yours.
In Ragamuffin Gospel , Catholic mystic Brennan Manning favorably quotes mystic author Alan Jones...who wrote " Re-imagining Christianity ....in Re-imagining Christianity, Alan Jones reveals his open contempt for the atoning death of Jesus Christ on the cross for lost sinners ..when he writes;
"The Church's fixation on the death of Jesus as the universal saving act must end, and the place of the cross must be reimagined in Christian faith. Why? Because of the cult of suffering and the vindictive God behind it" (p. 132). "
Truth be told..
Your abominations are showing.
Any author (Manning ) who could endorse author ( Alan Jones ) who could even dare to make statements against the preaching of the message of the Cross..is already showing his open contempt for the Gospel of Jesus Christ of Holy Scripture.
"I agree. But, most of what has been linked to today is not doctrinal at all, but ecclesiological methodology. "
Not true at all. They are literally briefed on how to make the differences just about 'methods'.
Sorry, friend, but I have interviewed and talked with too many people who have been shown the door in GCM churches because of doctrinal differences. Not the music, etc. Most I talked with were willing to overlook those things until the watered down teaching started.
Warren tried to pull this same just different 'methods' excuse on Joe Farrah and got his clock cleaned with truth and facts including an audio of Warren's very words. Farrah kept pointing to scripture. Warren did NOT want to go there. Still doesn't. Warren just ended up saying Farrah was 'mean'. So, scriptural truth is mean.
truthbtold
A convenient time to make your exit.
I was raised in an Independent Baptist Church so I don't favor "legalism" either. I run from it.
Please consider my posts addressed to you.
"The Spirit of Jesus has been convicting me about the affect my participation on this blog has on my abiding realtionship with him and my walk in holiness. So, I am going to disengage myself permanently from here"
God Bless you! Abide in the truth of the Word! Grace and Peace.
I didn't have much time but I thought I would send you guys this blogsite. It contains specific information on all the "big" pastor's homes and their values. Steve's isn't there but I'm sure he's right in their vicinity.
BTW, I think these figures are sickening and I do know all of them personally except for President Bush and James Baker.
http://baptistblog.wordpress.com/
Don't worry, I don't plan on posting much here and I promise to always sign my full name. I have no issue with people knowing who I am.
Dee Lauderdale
dee.lauderdale@gmail.com
www.guypod.org
DISPOSABLE CHRISTIANS
Speaking of battered sheep (and requests on this blog for more information on Rick Warren), the Cappleman's commendable letter just posted on Saving Bellevue is a perfect and parallel description of how Rick Warren trains pastors. Add to this the fact that many who expose the truth about Rick Warren on this blog are treated with much the same contempt...they too are now considered disposable Christians. How about refuting their arguments from Scripture instead of attacking them personally and telling others on this blog to ignore them. (I am still waiting Biblical refuation).
RICK WARREN HAS DEVISED A REDEFINED CHURCH
THAT CAN BE MARKETED TO THE WORLD
BUT WHICH IS
NOT FAITHFUL TO THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH, JESUS CHRIST
OBJECTIONS TO RICK WARREN'S TEACHINGS
By James Sundquist
Director
Rock Salt Publishing
http://www.abrahamic-faith.com
/False-Teachers.html
1. He makes a host of statements in his PDL book that he says are in the Bible...that is, in fact, in NO BIBLE or translation that even he promotes. My wife is not a Bible scholar, but does go through the Bible once a year...at least ten years. So when she read Warren's PDL book, without even checking the citations, she was able to say time after time regarding Warren's statements: "That's not in there" (the Bible), "That's not in there", "That's not in there". etc. Of course I knew this too. But when I wrote my first book on Rick Warren, I did go check the citations.
2. He promotes a host of false translations. See my first book and first Powerpoint presentation.
3. He promote a host of false teachers.
For a list see: http://www.abrahamic-faith.com
/James/IN_HIS__Rick_Warren's
_OWN_WORDS_for_general_use.pdf
&
http://www.abrahamic-faith.com
/James/BIRDSOFFEATHERPDF.pdf
4. He redefines Christianity. See my friend and colleague Pastor Bob DeWaay's new book:
Redefining Christianity - Understanding the Purpose Driven Movement
http://cicministry.org/store.php
5. Rick Warren's forced covenants put us right back under the law, the very thing that the Apostle Paul condemned in Galatians. This will enable you to reject Rick Warren's 40 Days of Purpose and his Purpose Driven Life book before you even get to his 40 Days in his book. See my Part I of my Powerpoint presentation on PDC.
6. Warren's SHAPE Personality Temperament Profiling divination is based on the occultic teachings of Carl Jung. Proof:
http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/
James/chapter-eleven.pdf
and Part II of my PDC Powerpoint presentation.
7. His Global Peace Plan includes Muslims. See Chapter Seven in my new book Rick Warren's Global Peace Plan vs. Scripture. But this article which will be read on Southwest Radio tomorrow on Watchman on the Wall describes very well why this is impossible (for a Christian):
CAN A MUSLIM BE A GOOD AMERICAN?
Food for thought. Interesting questions for the Muslim Community to discuss.
Research for the rest of us.
Can a good Muslim be a good American?
I forwarded that question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.
The following is his forwarded reply:
Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon God of Arabia.
Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)
Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).
Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.
Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.
Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.
Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).
Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.
Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot coexist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.
Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.
Therefore after much study and deliberation....perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish....it's still the truth.
You had better believe it.
If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.
The religious war is bigger than we know or understand.
So, do you feel lucky today? Vote for a Muslim or Muslim sympathizer for Congress or President, where they will have access to issues of our national security and intelligence which they can then pass on to their Imam who will then funnel it to Islamic terrorists. What good will a wall across our entire border with Mexico do when we vote them into office
8. He is a destroyer of the brethren and countries and then lies about it:
EXAMPLES:
Regarding a recent statement attributed to Kay Warren below, someone please ask Gene Dahler (at Saddleback) and Kay Warren to name names (me, Warren Smith, Deborah Dombroski, Perry Rockwood [People's Gospel, Canada, Philip Powell: Contending Earnestly for the Faith [Australia], Wendy Howard: Despatch Magazine [Australia], Professor Johan Malan (South Africa), Trayce & Ray Gano, Zeph Daniels, Paul Proctor, Jacob Prasch, Pastor Bob DeWaay, Dr. Robert Klenck, Evangelist Loren Davis [who is still picking of up the pieces of the brother and countries in Africa that Warren has destroyed], former Catholic Priest Richard Bennett who helped expose his Roman Catholic unholy alliances, Dean Gotcher, Roger Oakland, Mac Dominick, Chris Carmichael, David Bay, David Cloud, etc.), as Scripture requires. Ask her to produce anywhere in my two books on Warren where I have born false witness against him. I have gotten a host of similar attacks by Warrenite pastors and followers for a number of years. And to date, they have produced ZERO evidence that I have slandered him!
KAY WARREN:
"I recently heard Kay Warren whining and crying on the ("Christian") Paul McGuire Radio Show at KBRT, 740 AM, Crawford Broadcasting, Catalina, Ca.. She told everyone about the hateful, evil, mean spirited, demonic people who say such awful, nasty, terrible, and derogatory things about "her Rick and their Church", (they are so hateful, they must work for Satan.)"
Only a fool makes up his mind before hearing both sides of the story. KBRT wants to censor all opposition to ensure that you never hear the other side of the story, including the accounts of Warren's victims all over the world! You have now heard the tears of Kay Warren regarding opposition to Rick Warren. I now invite you to hear the tears of the victims of a host of churches who have been evicted for opposing his programs whom he calls "resisters". Who is going to comfort them? Who is going to comfort them on KBRT? Certainly not Paul McGuire or its owner Crawford.
But take heart, there are more and more saints and victims that see the Emperor's New PDC garments and the fraud of his Global Peace Plan! KBRT has clearly become PURPOSE-DRIVEN PRAVDA!
*******
SPIRITUAL EUTHANASIA
A PARABLE OF THE PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH
PURPOSE DRIVEN CHRISTIANITY....A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT UNTO MAN, OR WHO'S END IS DESTRUCTION?
"First they came for “resisters” and “pillars” of Brunswick Reformed Church, Brunswick, Ohio
because they opposed Purpose Driven Life and Church, but I didn't speak up because I was not a member of Reformed Church of American (RCA) denomination.
Then they came after a lady who was an elder lady in the faith who had been with the First Baptist Church of Dallas, Texas since 1956 by shouting her down with spiritual euthanasia and aggressive mean-spirited behavior, and the intimidation of seven attorneys, because she opposed them turning their landmark Criswell Center into a Purpose Driven entertainment center. But I did not speak up because I was not a widow.
Then they held a trial for two families at Valley Baptist Church in Lakeland, Minnesota, but I didn't speak up because I was not a member of the General Baptist Convention.
Then they came after 165 members of Gardendale Baptist Church, Corpus Christi, Texas and ran them out of the church, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Southern Baptist.
Then a brother did finally speak up and tried to warn Eugene Christian Fellowship because they had gone Purpose Driven, but they threatened legal action and told him to stop spamming them. But I did not speak up for fear of being accused of spamming or being sued by a church.
Then a news reporter for a large Christian radio network sounded the alarm on His Holy Hill of this clear and present danger. They ran the story, but received more gnashing of teeth from callers then they had ever had, so they censored this story from their Agape Press print media news service.
Then still another brother on another Christian radio ministry broadcast testimonies of Christians thrown out of their churches across the country, but the network threatened to remove his show from the air, if another broadcast was ever made that said anything bad about Rick Warren. But I did not speak up because I had friends and family who were either employed by an organization that promoted Purpose Driven Church, or were in Purpose Driven Church, and I did not want to lose those relationships.
Then they came after a large group of members at New Hope Church in Bend, Oregon. But I didn't speak up because I wasn't a member of The Evangelical Church denomination or the National Association of Evangelicals.
Then they came after a carpenter and his wife at Calvary Community Church in Phoenix, Arizona with the police and a sheriff and escorted him out of the church and off of the grounds for trying to expose the deeds of darkness and the teachings of Rick Warren, telling him that if he returned, he would be arrested. But I didn't speak up because I wasn't a member of the Calvary Chapel denomination.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me, because every church in the nation had become Purpose Driven and part of his Global PEACE Plan."
Compiled and Adapted by James Sundquist
Based on Rev. Martin Neimoeller's Poem below written in 1945
(c)2005 Rock Salt Publishing Used by Permission
"In Germany, the Nazis first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics, but I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak for me."
(Rev. Martin Neimoeller, German Lutheran Pastor. Rev. Neimoeller was arrested by the Gestapo for opposing Hitler and was sent to Dachau in 1938. He was freed by Allied forces in 1945.)
**********
WARRENGATE SCANDAL:
COMMENTARY ON WALL STREET JOURNAL & BAPTIST PRESS ARTICLE ON RICK WARREN
Without directly accusing Rick Warren of lying, Suzanne Sataline, author of the September 5, 2006 Wall Street Journal article: A Popular Strategy For Church Growth Splits Congregants, astutely revealed him to be one when Warren says he opposes any efforts to expel members from churches who won't comply with his programs, then she describes Dan Southerland's Church Transitions organization, one of Rick Warren major global partners and quotes by their spokespersons Roddy Clyde and Glen Sartain prove that Rick Warren does promote those very efforts to expel members from churches. The WSJ article even backed it up by documenting that Church Transitions conducted their program right at Warren's Saddleback Church, making it impossible for him to squirm out of it or say that it happened at another church...so therefore not his fault. And I can back it up too because I have tapes of Warren's PDC Conference leaders in Nairobi Kenya, confirming their alliance with Church Transitions in Warren's Global Peace Plan. I can't even believe he would make such an audacious statement that can be so easily refuted when he trains 400,000 pastors all over the world how to do precisely just that when dealing with his "resisters" and those who "must die". Suzanne Sataline caught Rick Warren redhanded! Good job! A further note in the Baptist Press article that there was not an ounce of compassion for any of the victims of Rick Warren's programs as though they had no biblical grounds for their opposition. Also note that they tried to contact Warren and the Wall Street Journal, but no record of contacting any of the victims to verify their story. This is the same stunt that Baptist Press pulled when covering the story on 165 members being ousted from Gardendale Baptist Church in Corpus Christi, Texas, as though they deserved it. When the reality is that BP did not even mention the real reason, and that was they opposed their church being hijacked by Rick Warren's Purpose Driven programs and teachings.
*****
From Rick Warren's own website pastors.com:
Go to "Transitioning Churches", then to "Step 6, Dealing with Opposition". When you are there, you will find one post after another from pastors or lay people to the same. It is full of the purpose driven folks telling others how to deal with opposition or resistors from getting them 'out of the gate' to 'shooting the wolves'. Yes, you heard me right...shooting the wolves. In fact there are many, many threads dealing with transitioning...read all you can stand to read in order to get a thorough understanding of what is going on in the churches. Dan Southerland responds himself as does Glen Sartain, and others with Transitioning, Inc. I have an example right here:
___________________________________
Originally posted by: beachpreach:
"It takes time, but once you've built a solid leadership team and have a few wolf killings under your belt, you learn to act swiftly the next time opposition stirs."
The reply:
"I had to learn this the hard way without any leadership team. The wolf-killing got done, I've got the scars to prove it. But, I LEARNED! and indeed, next time I will act swiftly."_
___________________________________
They are talking about how to get rid of resistors or opposition, which is what most of you are.
Please go to this website and read. And read. And read. There are many subjects here all relating to the purpose driven movement. Transitioning is your game however. Read.
SOURCE: http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=36564514&postID=116953936305269539
One more current example which is consistent with the advice given above on Rick Warren's Pastors.com website:
Senior Pastor Lynn Kent of Greater Portland Bible Church who had completely transformed to a PDC church, whose church recently promoted a conference in Portland, Oregon with Rick Warren's North American Global Peace Plan Director as featured speaker, has now taken over Maranatha Bible Chapel (Christian & Missionary Alliance) in Horseheads, NY, and just fired their beloved music director after giving him an ultimatum to comply with PDC transition transformation which he refused. This pastor has now destroyed a brother!!! The elders had a meeting with the choir, informed them...half walked in the middle of the meeting...the rest are madder than a wet hornet. Lynn Kent is an interim pastor at this church. So I hope the whole country takes warning of what could be in store for them if he ever becomes "Interim" Pastor of their church. To date he has not repented or made restitution to this brother. Can't help but also wonder what is in store for resisters when the permanent pastor is installed. Lynn Kent hass now about to become a national posterchild for how to destroy a brother. So you better put on the full armor of God, for PDC and Corporatization is coming to your church, denomination, and village, if it has not already taken it over!
9. He promotes Mysticism (one of the reasons Chuck Smith, the leader of Calvary Chapels has pulled Warren's books).
See Lighthouse Trails website: http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/warren.htm
He lied about its Director Deborah Dombrowski too.
Also see Brian Flynn's DVD Be Still and Know...that you are being deceived, Bob DeWaay's : Dangers of Mysticism and the New Spirituality at: http://www.onetruthministries.com/, Chapter 8 of the 2nd edition of Ray Yungen's A Time of Departing which is a critique of Rick Warren's promotion of Richard Foster and the spiritual formation movement (i.e., contemplative or mysticism), and Roger Oakland's Purpose Driven Plan:
http://www.understandthetimes.org
/commentary/c56.shtml
http://www.understandthetimes.org
/commentary/c57.shtml
and Another Jesus, which will be out soon and his new book on the emerging church, Faith Undone. It is a summer release, but it will be back from the printers in June. www.lighthousetrails.com/
faithundone.htm.
Also Deceived on Purpose by Warren Smith. Available online at: http://www.discernment-ministries.org
/DiscerningPurposeDriven.htm
10. He teaches a New Age Gospel. See Paul Proctor's commentary on Warren's Ladies Home Journal column:
http://www.newswithviews.com/
PaulProctor/proctor66.htm
Also see my second book on his promotion of Ken Blanchard and my second Powerpoint on his voting for a August Turak New Ager for Grand Prize in the Power of Purpose Awards.
Now this is just the tip of the iceburg. He was also caught lying by Worldnet Daily author Joseph Farah several articles on Rick Warren: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53048
&
Berit Kjos' articles such as Treason in the Church: http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/db079.htm
VCYAMERICA has also publicly called Warren's actions treasonous.
11. In several years, I have received a number of emails accusing me of slandering a brother (Rick Warren) from PDC pastors and followers. But to date, no proof and no reasoning from Scripture to prove our allegations false.
12. Hope this will help prove that Rick Warren is a false teacher. But if you give me your address, I will send you both of my books exposing him.
13. I could have folded this into false teachers that Warren promotes...but his developing a purpose-driven book and curriculim for Roman Catholics is a major issue. RC is a pagan religion of Necromancy...for starters. I also address this in my second book on Warren.
Ask former Roman Catholic priest Richard Bennett what he thinks of Warren's teachings:
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/
articles/rick_warren_purpose_driven.htm
&
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles/rick_warren_purpose_driven_2.htm
CONCLUSION & WARNING:
In almost every public appearance (99.9%) the true Gospel is missing, and the PDL or his false P.E.A.C.E. is elevated to gospel status.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:9 KJV)
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34 KJV)
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: (Luke 12:51 KJV) (Warren hates doctrine, it divides the light from the darkness and he serves darkness)
His unholy alliances are many IE: He is a CFR member, Bedfellows with Bono, promotes One.org, he readily accepted in hate filled countries by hate filled dignitaries such as Syria, and North Korea as well others; and the list goes on and on. In fact the only real enemy that Warren speaks about is Bible Believing Born Again Christians (Fundamentalists) in his opinion they are the worst enemies of the 21st century!
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4 KJV)
Abstain from all appearance of evil. (1 Thessalonians 5:22 KJV)
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? (2 Corinthians 6:14 KJV)
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. (Ephesians 5:11 KJV)
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (1 Thessalonians 5:3 KJV)
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. (1 John 3:14 KJV)
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. (2 John 1:10-11 KJV)
In keeping with the thread topic, I would like to suggest that, in order to get a man truly called of God it would be a good first step to offer a modest but adequate salary - not one that puts him in the "affluent" category.
If other churches are willing to pay him more so he feels "called" to go there instead, they can have him, in my opinion.
Regarding the brutal and dispicable Unbiblical transitioning of Churches
New BBC Open Forum said...
ima,
You've told us about this before, but I never got around to reading it until tonight. I'm still shaking -- literally. If this is truly the state of many churches (and the attitudes of their so-called pastors) today, we are in deep, deep... trouble.
Kind of ironic, don't you think, they call the site "pastors.com," and yet they refer to "shooting wolves" and other euphemisms for ways they mistreat their sheep while patting each other on the back for their kills. No one's arguing (I don't think) that there aren't at least a few members in every church who, regardless of the integrity and compassion of the pastor, would try the patience of Job. However, it's the established, Bible-saavy Christians they're "shooting," the ones with the discernment to see what's happening in their churches and dare to question "God's anointed and appointed."
Thank you for providing that information. This should be required reading for everyone.
------------
Amen NBBCOF ...grievous wolves are running the PD churches...and now look at old time pillars and Gods sheep who can Biblically identify wolves as wolves...
Isaiah 5: 20-22
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight.
PART ONE
Let’s begin this post with prayer. Will you please pray this prayer in your heart as you read it? Engage God on your behalf and the behalf of others by making this prayer your prayer too.
Our heavenly Father, we of Bellevue are in grave need of Your power to be upon our lives. We know that we wrestle not against flesh and blood in our spiritual warfare, but against the devil and the powers of darkness.
We are not equipped in our limited wisdom and weak flesh to confront such a formidable enemy. We must rely on You and You alone to fight for us and we know that what we often see as our conflict is in fact, Your battle.
We also know that even though we attempt to allow you to fight the battle through us that we are still sometimes guilty of depending on the arm of the flesh when we should be depending on You.
We know that no matter how pure our motives may be and how earnestly we desire to be clay in Your hands, that the devil will cause others to accuse us of being evil, vindictive, and self-serving.
Help us to know that this is always a part of the price we must pay if we insist on being Your faithful servants, and help us to most gladly bear it because in so doing we are suffering unjustly as did our dear Lord Jesus, except His suffering was so much greater than ours, even unto His death on the cross.
We pray that You will, as You have through the millenniums, give the victory in the battle in which we currently find ourselves engaged. Our desire is that out of it all You will ultimately be lifted up and magnified and glorified!
In the matchless name of Jesus we pray. Amen.
I’m sure it is agreed by most that some supporters on both sides of the regrettable issues with which our church is currently wrestling have not always expressed themselves in the Spirit of Christ.
This is a sin and is very unfortunate. However, others have approached these problems as I believe Jesus would with a broken heart and a sincere concern for the welfare of all who are involved on both sides.
After all, we are to love not only the brethren, but we are even commanded to love our enemies. And we are to love the brethren even though we disagree with them.
To love our enemies is a natural impossibility and therefore requires the supernatural Holy Spirit of God living in us to enable us to love even those who may be in the process of taking our life away as Jesus and Stephen demonstrated by praying for those who were killing them to be forgiven for doing so.
Therefore, at the outset of the first time I have posted on this blog, I want to say I love all of you brothers and sisters of BBC in the Lord who are involved in this difficult and sad situation with which we are all being forced to cope. I am deeply moved and grieved at what has happened and, at the time of this writing, is continuing to happen in our beloved church.
My sincere motivation in going public like this is a deep desire to be among those who might be helpful in the restoration of all those who need to be restored to their first love. I too, like you, am only a sinner saved by grace and am not, nor do I pretend to be, always above reproach.
I am therefore ever aware of what Jesus said to those who piously brought the adulterous woman before Him expecting Him to condemn her and have her stoned to death. He said, “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” None qualified and they all left. Jesus had compassion on the woman and said, “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”
The hypocritical crowd had no love or compassion for the woman. They didn’t desire her restoration. They sought her destruction.
Jesus demonstrated the love and compassion which He expects His followers to demonstrate in their lives. It is not my purpose here to cast stones in an effort to destroy anyone involved in this matter. It is my desire to encourage repentance and restoration.
Now, having hopefully established the demeanor to which I hope to cling as I proceed, let me say what I have fervently and earnestly prayed will be the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking through me.
Jesus was kind and compassionate to the woman mentioned above. I believe His response was determined by the fact that he saw in her heart an attitude of deep sorrow and regret over her sin. In other words I believe he saw a spirit of repentance in her heart and thus He forgave her and sent her on her way.
Jesus reacted much differently, however, toward the religious leaders of his day who were living double lives and were unrepentant of their sins. It should be emphasized that these were unsaved people who were pretending to be very religious.
The pastor and others of our church have openly broken the law by trespassing on posted, fenced property and have refused to recant by calling it the sin that it is. The pastor rather pretended to apologize for what he chose to call a “mistake” which he further attempted to trivialize by saying it was a “mistake of the head and not of the heart.”
He further attempted to minimize the matter by saying the fence was very short and they just stepped over it, although the height of the fence has no bearing whatsoever on the extent of the sin. Those who are godly cannot remain right with the Lord if they choose to ignore sin in the name of unity and act as though it never happened.
When I say “pretended to apologize” I am saying that the sincerity of the apology must be seriously questioned when the one offering it is at the same time in essence attempting to defend what was done by implying that it really wasn’t very bad in the first place.
When God sent Nathan the prophet to confront David with his sins of adultery and murder, David made no attempt to defend himself. This is found in 2 Samuel 12:13, “Then David said to Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD."
Pastor I don’t say all this to be mean or disrespectful, but to, as Nathan did David, confront you with your sin. You have established a pattern of insincere apologies about the trespassing issue and the “supposed” apology to Dr. Whitmire for how you mistreated him.
The wages of sin is death. Sin kills unity. Therefore, the one guilty of the sin causing the disunity is the one who is guilty of destroying the unity among brethren. Those who are moved by the Holy Spirit to try to restore the one guilty of the sin are not the ones who are guilty of dividing the church.
However, as I said at first, there are some who have sinned by not having the right spirit when they have posted their comments and opinions and this is true of people on both sides of the matter.
Now I believe I should comment on the first point and the last point of the four points in the sermon titled “When The Spirit Comes” which the pastor preached on Sunday evening, Feb. 25, the same night brother David Coombs was ordained.
The first point was, “The Spirit is attracted to unity (Acts 2:1).”
This verse says, “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come they were all with one accord in one place.”
Jesus said all the law and prophets is encompassed by this one great commandment, “You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart and soul and mind and strength.” He also said, “If you love Me keep my commandments.” We are also told that, “Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.”
It is possible for a number of people to be assembled together in one place and not be of one mind or one accord. Although thousands have left our church to go to other churches, there are many who have chosen to stay for any number of reasons even though they are still broken hearted over what is happening. Just because they are there doesn’t mean they are in one accord with what is going on.
Just because they disagree with the sins of others, doesn’t make them divisive. The ones committing the sins are the ones who are causing division. However, I must admit that some who have opposed sin have themselves committed sin by having a hateful, bitter spirit instead of having love in their hearts for those who have done wrong. And such an attitude does cause further division.
Let’s say someone wants the church to be carpeted with green carpet but the majority vote for red instead. If the one who wanted green gets mad and leaves the church, then that person is obviously being immature and is guilty of being divisive and sinning against the Lord. There was no sinful issue involved until he committed one himself.
When the pastor took our co-pastor and others from legal ground to illegal ground, they were all in one place, but I am confident they were not all of one “accord” or that is, in agreement that what they were doing was right.
Item C under the first point was “Disunity is a sign of spiritual immaturity.” This is true and it is also true that the one who is spiritually immature is the one the spiritually mature are to disagree with when the immature one disobeys the Lord.
It doesn’t matter how many years a person has been saved or how often they have gone to church or even if they have a daily quiet time, when they intentionally sin, it is a spiritually immature and rebellious thing to do. It was a spiritually immature and rebellious act for the pastor to violate the law by trespassing. It was also a spiritually immature and rebellious act for the others to follow him in his sin.
There was no doubt disunity in their hearts although they were unified outwardly. However, they should have told the pastor that they disagreed with his decision to break the law and should have refused to follow him over the fence. This is a type of disunity that God supports. Acts 5:29 states, “But Peter and the apostles answered, ‘We must obey God rather than men.’”
Godliness is never to be slain on the alter of unity. If we must disobey God to have unity then it is better not to have unity.
On Sunday nights when everyone sings, “There’s a sweet, sweet Spirit in this place.” It is true that the Holy Spirit is there because He is everywhere and He is the sweet Spirit of God, but He is also the grieved Spirit of God over what is happening to our church. Having the congregation sing “everything is wonderful” songs doesn’t make everything wonderful.
I think under the current circumstances it would sadly be more appropriate to sing, “There’s a deeply grieved Spirit in this place.”
I will address the last point of the pastor’s sermon and some other matters later in PART TWO of my comments.
Just came across an interesting new blog by Dr. R. Kirk Kilpatrick, a professor at MABTS. The first article is about the upcoming James Cameron "documentary" about the Talpiot tombs which Cameron claims may contain the "lost tomb of Jesus."
From the blog description:
"This blog is about evidence--biblical and extrabiblical--that relates to the claims of Jesus and the accuracy of the Bible. While extrabiblical evidences will be weighed here, what the Apostle Peter wrote (2 Peter 1:19) will remain the major focus. He wrote that we have "a more sure word of prophecy"--the confirmed word in the scriptures that Jesus is the Messiah."
Should be interesting. I've put a link on the front page in the Links section.
a former pastor,
Amen.
Thank you. Looking forward to Part 2.
sbxozlaA Former pastor said:
Godliness is never to be slain on the alter of unity. If we must disobey God to have unity then it is better not to have unity.
Thank You.....for
That simple , yet profound Truth , expressed in Chrit's Love.
( typo's notwihstanding ) :))))
As I said in an earlier post, I am the one who posted the "be on the lookout" thread on pastors.com. I hope those of you who disagree with what is posted on the Transitioning thread will post so that dialogue can begin.
Dee Lauderdale (not that it matters but I'm a guy)
Hey guys...
I haven't been around much today. There are some questions I need to respond to and will try to do just that quickly. There are some comments I wanted to make when reading through all the posts from last evening, but probably will not have time. Just know that I appreciate all the remarks made about having posted the transitioning thread. And indeed, it is sad to know that there are pastors out there calling discerners wolves, etc. We must remember to pray for the guys.
Dee, the five elements mentioned with PDL to grow or transition a healthy church are:
1 fellowship.
2.discipleship.
3 worship.
4.ministry.
5.evangelism
Not so much wrong with these elements; it is his method I have a problem with.
Got to go to a dinner tonight, so won't be around for a while.
Ima
Dee Lauderdale said...
"As I said in an earlier post, I am the one who posted the "be on the lookout" thread on pastors.com. I hope those of you who disagree with what is posted on the Transitioning thread will post so that dialogue can begin. Dee Lauderdale (not that it matters but I'm a guy)"
RESPONSE FROM IMA: Let me introduce you folks to Dee Lauderdale:
He has been a registered pastor of pastors.com, one of Rick Warren's websites since 1999. He has 854 posts on that forum. He doesn't say if he presently is the pastor of a church of not. However, this is what he does say:
"Some know that Bellevue Baptist in Memphis is in the middle of a church war. There are a couple of sites that are trying to get the Pastor, Steve Gaines, fired. Now they have set their sites on Rick Warren and PDC.
Apparently there are several people from a blog coming here to read what us sinful and wicked pastors who dare to suggest that there might be a better way to do church scheme on how to kick the precious, long term and long suffering saints out of the church. They are focusing on anything that talks about Transitioning and Dan's book.
These people are pagan vipers who have decided that they and they alone are the only ones who can approve what happens in a church. Pastors are, to use their exact words, a "hireling" and most are overpaid. So know that your words are being watched. I frankly don't care and will now make it easier for these folks to "tell" on me or whatever else by posting my information unlike most of those cowards who will not reveal their identities."
Now, he said in a previous post that he doesn't plan on posting much here and that he has no isssue with people knowing who he is. Therefore, I know he won't mind that I just posted here who he is. So, in elementary language, he might be referred to as a 'tattle tale". He has gone to pastors.com and told on us. I don't have a problem with that and it should be evident. However, in true form in relating to the abuse of people like us, the resistors, the moderator of the pastors.com forum, Tony Liston, had this to say about us, "If you see or suspect one, let me know. I've got an axe I'd like to lay at the root." He, of course, was referring to us.
To summarize, Dee Lauderdale is wanting to dialogue with us. A better way to put it would be to say he is wanting to argue. This blogger is a little more recognizeable...he is wearing a Hawaiian shirt, shorts, carry a PDL book under his arm, and is you'll listen very carefull, I think you can hear him humming Purple Haze. If you ask he might even do the 'Burning Bush' for us.
I am going to scroll on by him...I hope you all will too. I have been here and done this scene many, many times. He is trying to irritate us. :(
To Bob Barker: Yes, I did post it.
To Imaresistor. Sorry to disappoint you but I don't wear shorts when I teach because I don't have the legs for it! As far as humming "Purple Haze" I'm actually more into late 70's and early 80's Arena Rock.
Thanks for acuratley (sp?) quoting me and my stats. Tony is one of the moderators there and he did what he did on his own. There are lots of pastors who post there and I wanted them to know that a new group of lurkers were there and they should post with that knowledge.
I do enjoy a good arguement but the reason I gave my email address was to enable those who wanted to discuss issues with me the ability to do it off line so as not to be a distraction to this blog. Sorry if that didn't come across in my previous posting.
Dee Lauderdale
I shouldn't have deleted this earlier. My apologies, Dee R.
2006Huldah said...
NASS,
I just looked in to catch up from the bottom up and I saw you communicating with "Dee" and thought it was I. I scrolled a little farther up and saw that we have another Dee now who uses it as her actual screen name. (For anyone who doesn't know, my actual screen name is the above "2006huldah). Perhaps, you know more of this "Dee Lauderdale" than I do, but I hope you will be watching carefully especially at this point to see what "she" says or even if "she" isn't a "he". I see this as a major intrusion and a confusion whether intentional or not since everyone is used to hearing what I have to say from way back, and, now, this new addition. This very much concerns me even if he/she changes his/her screen name IF he/she puts his/her name "Dee" at the bottom of each post as I have been doing.
As I have displayed on here before, my name is Dee Richardson. Even if I were to change my screen name now, the other Dee might be confused with me since I have become recognizable having posted here since last year. People would have to relearn that I was someone else. Please, the only way I can see this confusion as being preventable is to not allow this new "Dee Lauderdale" to use the name "Dee" at all. It may be that many have not caught the few times I have shown my last name "Richardson" and will think that I am "Dee Lauderdale".
Why am I so afraid of this possiblity? Especially today?
Dee Richardson
12:10 PM, March 02, 2007
2006huldah wrote:
"It may be that many have not caught the few times I have shown my last name 'Richardson' and will think that I am 'Dee Lauderdale'.
"Why am I so afraid of this possiblity? Especially today?"
Your intuition was right on, Dee Richardson. Heaven forbid anyone would think you're of the same mindset as Dee L.
Dee Lauderdale,
You know, I really have no problem with RW's "better way to do church" if that's your thing, but just go do it somewhere else! What makes people like you think they have any right to go into an established church and "transition" it against the wishes of the members who built that church? And you call us "pagan vipers" and "wolves"? I believe we refer to that as the pot calling the kettle black.
By all means, go do church any way you want to, but at least have the gumption to go start your own, not take over by force an existing church.
Just go back to your little "pastor" clique and misquote us and talk about us all you want. We don't need you to come here and beat us up, thank you.
Dee Richardson's "sheep sense" was dead on today. She sensed something wrong and was warning the rest of the sheep there could be a wolf in our midst. Too bad our shepherd seems to be M.I.A. right now.
Don't worry, Dee. We're right here!
I am a BBC Member and also a former member of First Baptist Muscle Shoals (mentioned in earlier comments). If you wish to know more about the True Church Conference, go to www.anchoredintruth.org or www.fbcms.org.
A Former Pastor,
Thank you so much for your Spirit filled, thought provoking, truth speaking post!
I can't wait for part #2!
Standing
Looking forward to part 2 as well.
solomon,
Please don't go there. That topic is over and done with.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
Piglet
I just wanted you to know how blessed I am by your posts. You always know just the right thing to say, and they are always full of wisdom. You are a very smart little piglet :)
Remember you're reacting to something I wrote on another site, which you came to. Someone else posted what I said here on this blog. If you're offended it means you went looking to be offended. If I had come here and posted you would have every right to be mad but I didn't.
Moral of the story: you stay in
your sand box and we'll stay in ours.
My name is Dee Lauderdale and I approved this message.
dee lauderdale
Read the post by former pastor and take notes.
Hey Folks. Reading the posts today made me feel that I should repost some quotes from Adrian Rogers in one of his books:
Koragg said...
I was reading in a Bible study workbook based on "The Incredible Power of Kingdom Authority" which was written by Dr. Rogers and on page 38 of that workbook there were some statements that really stuck out about the role of Pastor.
"The pastor is to have a place of strong leadership, but not to be without accountability. The pastor and other church leaders still must submit to the over-arching authority of the whole body because JESUS is the HEAD of the body."
"Woe to pastors who have such a sense of self-importance that they become authoritarian and fail to listen and to learn. Such attitudes show immaturity and fear. The true leader does not call honest questions and discussion "sowing discord"
Reading these statements and then looking at the situation at Bellevue now....Gaines is doing exactly the opposite of how a pastor should behave.
9:54 PM, March 01, 2007
Obviously, these line up with some of the scriptures that Don has mentioned. The Purpose Driven Life's methods go against that. Especially the methods of eliminating those who disagree with the pastor.
dee lauderdale wrote:
"Moral of the story: you stay in your sand box and we'll stay in ours."
And that's the problem. The PDL peddlers aren't staying in their own sand boxes. They're invading everyone else's. Thank you for illustrating so clearly what I already stated. "Do church" however you wish. Just take your own advice by not invading an established church and trying to force your methods on others.
You even have to have discussions on how to do it "boiling the frog" style. Better not do it too quickly, guys. The "pagan vipers" and "wolves" might notice and put up a fight.
"And that's the problem. The PDL peddlers aren't staying in their own sand boxes."
Actually I was referring to this blog and pastors.com. We're not going to agree on PDC so why don't you use your energies on your primary goal, regaining control and getting rid of Steve Gaines?
BTW, I do have one question, under what pastor was Bellevue introduced to PDL/PDC?
Dee Lauderdale
NASS said today--
Dee Richardson's "sheep sense" was dead on today. She sensed something wrong and was warning the rest of the sheep there could be a wolf in our midst. Too bad our shepherd seems to be M.I.A. right now.
Don't worry, Dee. We're right here!
7:41 PM, March 02, 2007
********
Thank you, NASS. Did you accidentally delete my earlier post? My alarm bells were all ringing when I saw the other Dee on here. I have been gone all day since I posted my feelings about the confusion it would cause and did not know you had deleted my plea to you. Anyway, I feel much better now after seeing the picture you linked of yourself on here. You are one bad dude. I don't think anybody will mess with us anymore. Thanks, again.
*******
Imaresistor,
Thank you for answering all of the questions I asked you. I and the rest of us owe you a debt of gratitude for all of your knowledge on PDL/ECM. You have all your guns blazing, too. The Lord is using you mightily in this area. I know you have suffered in the past at the hands of these wolves, but look how strong and wise it has made you and how you are coming to our alert and aid now. Especially, thank you for exposing Dee Lauderdale (male)as one of the posters on the pastors.com website which belongs to Rick Warren. He can say he doesn't care that we know who he is, but he sure wasn't volunteering that information, was he? In fact I don't think anybody in the whole PDL movement knows how to do anything but deceive, connive, and steal existing churches instead of building their own. They must not have much faith in its being accepted by congregants or else they wouldn't have to be so sneaky, would they? I think that the way they plot and plan these "transitionings", that they really ought to be called "churchnappings" or "hijackings".
I sure don't need them to tell me what's best for me in my relationship with the Lord. He tells me the right way to go, He is my Shepherd for all time, and He never leads me astray.
*********
Standingon...(Bluebird, to me),
Thank you for perking me up tonight while Alli is asleep just by showing your face on here. It really tickled me to death. I am so proud of you.
*******
Former Pastor,
You win the prize tonight for breaking it all down for us sheep. You are our shepherd tonight and you made us see that the Lord is still in control and still watching over his sheep. Thank you so much.
*******
Piglet, I love you, too. You truly are a very smart PERSON, and I have never heard you oink one time. You only speak words of wisdom and help your brothers and sisters. You're nice, Piglet.
THANK YOU, LORD JESUS FOR THESE BROTHERS AND SISTERS! AMEN.
Dee Richardson Shoo, Wolves!!!
Get back to your sandbox.
Dee Lauderdale,
It was under Mark Daugherty.
dee l said..
"BTW, I do have one question, under what pastor was Bellevue introduced to PDL/PDC?"
The initial introduction was by Associate Pastor Mark Dougharty. Dr Rogers was on medical leave at the time. By the time he returned, the plans were in the works. Dr Rogers stated from the pulpit that the book contained some good information and ideas; however he repeatedly noted that we should ALWAYS rely on scripture and not follow the book where it conflicted with the Word or Doctrine. He said many other things, but that was enough to make me search the scriptures as I read and lay the book down in the early chapters. I eventually threw it away.
Sorry, I'm not familiar with the staffing of Bellevue so can you tell me when Mr. Daughtery was Senior Pastor? I was under the impression that Steve Gaines came just as Dr. Rogers was retiring.
Dee Lauderdale
Dee Lauderdale,
Dr. Rogers' retirement was in March, 2005. Steve Gaines officially became our pastor on August 1, 2005 but did not preach his first sermon until September 11, 2005.
Are you saved, Dee? This Dee is. Why don't you get out of the PDL business?
Dee Richardson (female)
Dee L.,
I think "mom4's" explanation was clear enough. This was just one of several changes that occurred when Mark Dougharty was acting in Dr. Rogers' absence. No one ever said Mark Dougharty was "senior pastor." Now, I think I hear your sandbox calling.
Don't let the big, bad wolf distract you, sheeps.
Wow, that was quick. Now my salvation is being questioned. Please think before you decide to become the Holy Spirit's helper in checking out people's hearts.
Later guys. This was fun and even easier than I expected it to be.
Dee Lauderdale
Yes, I've been thinking about that quote Dr. Rogers made in more than one sermon. I have two of them on tape, and listen to them often. I would love to know the source of the quote. Every time we discuss how Mark D. brought in the 40 Days of Purpose/PDL thing, I think of that quote. Every single time.
The quote goes as follows:
"WHO IS IT KNOCKS SO LOUD?
A lonely little sin.
SLIP THROUGH, I ANSWERED.
And soon all HELL was in."
Anybody know the source?
Dee Richardson
dee lauderdale,
and what did you expect to accomplish?
oc said,
"dee lauderdale,
and what did you expect to accomplish?"
Division and strife, sin
dee lauderdale
How does it feel to be part of the movement toward the one-world church?
Will you vote for Obama if he runs?
Yeah, mom4, he ought to be ashamed of himself, but some are without honor.
Dee Lauderdale said...
"Wow, that was quick. Now my salvation is being questioned. Please think before you decide to become the Holy Spirit's helper in checking out people's hearts."
*******
Were you offended by the words I spoke? When the Spirit leads me to do ANYTHING, I do it right then. Don't be so sure it was a person trying to check out another person's heart. I know what the Word of God says, and I know that only the Lord knows the hearts of men. Men look on the outward appearance. Jesus loves you, Dee Lauderdale.
Dee Richardson
Sure got quiet in here....
2006 and sickofthelies
You two are SO SWEET! :)
I don't know about you but I'm listening for the trumpet sound!
This "UNITY ABOVE ALL" stuff and the sarcasm and venom of these "pastors" for their own flock is creepy, but we've read the end of The Book and it is all
part of what is to unfold.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
Thanks for posting, piglet! I was afraid the rapture had come and I was left behind! ;)
Oh boy. Oh boy.....
Former Pastor...
I, for one, am anxiously awaiting Part Two of your notes. God bless you sir.
Ima
2006Huldah,
I am not worthy of your praise, though I thank you for your sweet thoughts. I am no more that a poor sinner saved but by grace. May we throw ourselves at the feet of our Saviour and lift up His name to His Glory.
Praise God for you, sweet Dee. And all the rest of you.
My prayer is that we all stand for Jesus at all costs.
Ima
I am just catching up this am from last night and I'm with Piglet: Come, Lord Jesus, Come. Unfortunately, I don't think we're "there" yet. I think there are some more battles to wage as we continue to stand with Jesus. Dee Lauderdale has shown an unbelievable amount of self-importance and pride being here. (and just for the record, Dee L, many of us discovered RW's website quite a while ago; long before your "warning" went out. We saw the true nature of the posters heart's direction then.) I would like to see where the transitioning methodology can be justified in scripture (of course using it in full historical context as good students of scripture would do). It is not in my Bible that I can find. What I do see is a tremendous amount of pride, greed, and vanity. And again, what I don't see is adherence to God's Word in the area of pastor responsibilities and living witness.
Ah the Lord is moving still. Can you see it my friends? Brings us to pastor.com. Brings light to their methods. Let's them know there are people watching. This is much akin to the DC incident with the recorder. Now that they know people are watching will they alter their methods? Or will they hunt for a more private darkly lit place to discuss how to eradicate dissent from their churches. I agree with NASS. The whole PDC CGM PDL thing needs to stay in churches that are dead or dying. Do not think that because you get "called" to a mega church that gives you the right to transition it from or to anything. Oh and yes I meant the "" around called because I doubt very seriously SG's calling to BBC.
Ju said," Let's them know there are people watching. This is much akin to the DC incident with the recorder. Now that they know people are watching will they alter their methods? Or will they hunt for a more private darkly lit place to discuss how to eradicate dissent from their churches."
RESPONSE:
"If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
Eze 33:4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
Eze 33:5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
ju said, "The whole PDC CGM PDL thing needs to stay in churches that are dead or dying."
I appreciate your post very much JU, but I do disagree with this statement in that the whole PDC, CGM, PDL thing need not be in any church for any reason. These cults need to be eradicated from the face of the earth. There is no place for these type movements in the Body of Christ. They are deceptions and lies. There is no truth in them. :)
Ima
Ima with you !!!!
The whole PD thang is built on an ash-heap of Satanic lies..
Lie #1 ..
PD tells pastors..
Churches are dying..
God says...The gates of Hell shall Not prevail against The Church
It took weak kneed, disobedient Pastors who rely on methods and men, rather than on Gods promises ...in order to beleive even the very 1st lie these purose driven drones sold to them.
Shame on the pastors for not trusting the promise of GOD.
In beleiving the purpose driven pied piper, you have reaped the whirlwind.
don,
*grinning*
Ima with you too, Don!!!
Ima
ju,
I agree with your emphasis on the "calling". As fleshly humans, WE did call Steve Gaines and I believe as part of God's permissive will, He allowed him to be brought to BBC. The sins of ignorance by the congregation (we ignorantly trusted that the search committee was acting in good faith - Numbers 15:esp v24-29) and the sins of presumption of the search committee (they presumed that we would follow and swallow a false teacher - Numbers 15:esp v30), both were sins and still God allowed us to get what we wanted - the congregational call of a pastor the majority of the congregation had never prayed over, knew nothing of his past offensives or his goals and ambitions and his personal agenda. HOWEVER, the Lord has used this to expose not only the unfitness of the man in the pulpit, but the unfit leadership that has been operating at BBC for years, right under our noses and we "assumed" that because they were in leadership that they were operating in good faith and were right with the Lord and their fellow man. HE also exposed the vilest of sins in our midst and Paul Williams was FINALLY removed from among us.
The most relavant exposure of sin the Lord has made to me was the lack of knowledge of the scriptures by the congregation and of the leadership. I wonder how these men and women sat under the greateast theologian of our time, Dr Adrian Rogers, and failed to absorb even the basics of the walk God expects us of us while in this world. John 8:31-36 expounds on the consequences of not abiding in God's Word. We as a church are guilty, however in v32, we are shown the way out.
God also promised:
" I " will build " MY " Church, saith The Lord.
You won't find Rick Warrens or Bill Hybels name in that verse at all.
So just what were these Pastors drinking when these Purpose Driven circus clowns came to town ?
My guess is that there were drinking deep from the glass of greed and envy and power-lust, and wanting to keep good relations with the rest of the pastors who were lining up like lemmings to be sucked into spiritual compromise with the one world religion.
Unbeleif, Flatteries, sinful pride, and lust for relationships with men and power...over the " Well done , good and Faithful servant..God had in store.
Spiritual betrayal from within...always works...
Who says its not dangerous to send your kids off to "most "seminaries " ?
The garbage being taught at most seminaries looks alot like new age handbooks at an Oprah Winfrey symposium.
Yet..
God is Sovereign, and even this BETRAYAL AND SPIRITUAL COMPROMISE is in HIS perfect WILL and PLAN.
This is the foretold apostasy.
We are so close.
Maranatha
There was a time, not too long ago, when you could enter any SBC church and know what they believe, how they believe, and Whom they believe. Everyone was on the same page. Now, it seems, you must question and research before you enter, and even then must enter at your own peril. Trust is gone, and it rips my guts out that brotherhood is also gone as a result.
That being said, it is a reminder not to put trust in men, a congregation, or a denomination. You know the rest...
oc said, "That being said, it is a reminder not to put trust in men, a congregation, or a denomination. You know the rest..."
Boy don't we! Well said oc.
Seems to me PDL and CGM is signs that liberalism has infiltrated the SBC. And Theres a couple of laws about liberalism that one should know.
1. Liberalism always has the opposite result of its stated intent.
2. Liberalism isn't a state of mind, its a mental illness.
All seeker churches are built on the dead bones of unbelievers.
As one repenting pastor who came out of the seeker movement said:
"I grew a church of baptized pagans"
Don't be confused: They are big but are dead spiritually. Peter Drucker does not grow a church. Jesus Christ does.
By the way, Dee Lauderdales blog is concerned with 'men not wanting to go to church'. I find this ironic in light of his defense of PDL. PDL brings in worldly marketing and organizational principes to attract seekers. For the past 25 years, the business world has been bringing in effeminate leadership tactics: faux consensus building, emotion and feelings based training programs. Personality profiling,etc. (I know a bit about this as a former organizational development consultant for 15 years)
Those same principles have been brought into the church. We are more concerned with feelings than truth.
One of the things that shocked me the most in working with seeker megas was how effeminate the young men were. Carrying their feeling on their shoulders, etc.Complaining all the time, etc. Trying to look and act cool. This was pretty much across the board.
There is much more to this and I know I am generalizing but 'generally' this is what I saw at quite a few churches across the USA.
I should qualify this statement:
We are more concerned with feelings than truth.
That is NOT the case if you disagree with them doctrinally. then YOU are a big mean wolf if you insist on focusing on scripture.
lindon......'effeminate'...we the politically incorrect call it 'sissy'...
This morning while thinking about all that is going on, the Lord reminded me of an old story...Many years ago there lived an emperor who was quite an average fairy tale ruler, with one exception: he cared much about his clothes. One day he heard from two swindlers named Guido and Luigi Farabutto that they could make the finest suit of clothes from the most beautiful cloth. This cloth, they said, also had the special capability that it was invisible to anyone who was either stupid or not fit for his position.
Being a bit nervous about whether he himself would be able to see the cloth, the emperor first sent two of his trusted men to see it. Of course, neither would admit that they could not see the cloth and so praised it. All the townspeople had also heard of the cloth and were interested to learn how stupid their neighbors were.
The emperor then allowed himself to be dressed in the clothes for a procession through town, never admitting that he was too unfit and stupid to see what he was wearing. He was afraid that the other people would think that he was stupid.
Of course, all the townspeople wildly praised the magnificent clothes of the emperor, afraid to admit that they could not see them, until a small child said:
"But he has nothing on!"
This was whispered from person to person until everyone in the crowd was shouting that the emperor had nothing on. The emperor heard it and felt that they were correct, but held his head high and finished the procession.
Here we have an obvious truth denied by the majority despite the evidence of their eyes...
Wedge,
It seems that evidence doesn't matter anymore. As lindon has so well put it, it's all about 'feeling'. Bring on Oprah!
Maybe Josh McDowell should write a book, "Feelings That Demand No Verdict", I bet it would be a hit!
In case you missed it, this fantastic letter is on Saving Bellevue:
February 28, 2007
Dear Bellevue :
True UNITY comes when born-again believers all surrender to their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. This includes the man in the pulpit, as well as the man in the pew. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). Jesus is all we need. He is our strength. He is our victory. In Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily. We who know Him are complete in Him. (Colossians 2: 6-9).
God gave us his perfect plan as to how His church is to function. The pastor is to fill the pulpit and preach the Word in TRUTH. It is God’s job to fill the pew. It is the spirit who convicts and brings men and women to the Savior and who grows us to maturity through His precious Word. All through the book of Acts, the people shared their testimony and told the lost how to be saved. The churches multiplied, multiplied, and multiplied again. (Luke 24:46-49, Acts 5:29-32, Acts 10:39 , Acts 13:31)
Jesus has not come to take sides; He has come to take over! What we need is total surrender to Him and dependence on His righteousness. We have none of our own. This includes pastors and other leaders, as well as the people in the pew
Dr. Gaines, you must realize our God is Holy. Be careful when you take a concordance and pick words all through His precious Word and twist them to beat His precious children. Beat the sheep and they scatter. Feed the sheep and they gather to the fold. (John 10, John 21:16-17)
In a sermon given by Steve Gaines in 1999 at Louisville , Kentucky , he stated from Jeremiah 1:10 that sometimes, as a messenger from God, a minister needs to “pluck up, break down, destroy, overthrow, before you can build and before you can plant”. Dr. Gaines, is not the scripture that you referred to speaking of “nations and kingdoms” and not of individual church members? Dr. Gaines, are you beating us deliberately to cause folks to leave? What discernment do you use to select those who will be cast aside? Is it everyone who disagrees with your agenda, including true believers who want to abide by the teachings of Jesus Christ? What exactly are you “planting”? It appears to be a lot of discord.
(Jeremiah 23:
Vs. 1- Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord.
Vs. 2- Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them; behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.)
Folks, search the scriptures as the early Berean church did. (Acts 17:10-11) The messenger does not validate the message. Be sure that what is being said from the pulpit is what God is saying in His Word. We have been taught that any text taken out of context is just a pretext. (Galatians 1:6-8) Don’t be lazy --- study His precious Word. (Hebrews 5:11-14)
We so need to be cleansed --- all of us. May our Precious Lord have mercy on us and give grace to help in this time of such great need.
Wade and Wilda Cappleman
Bellevue Members
The Question:
Should a pastor who has committed adultery be restored to the ministry?
John MacArthur's answer:
Some believe that God’s forgiveness should nullify all sin’s consequences. This issue inevitably arises when a Christian leader who has fallen into immorality professes repentance and then wants to return to a position of leadership in the church. Predictably, the fallen leader will plead his case by pointing out that God has forgiven him for his sin, so past sins should not be a factor in considering him for church leadership.
Yet the basic biblical requirement for all elders and deacons in the church is that they must be “above reproach” (1 Tim. 3:2, 10; Titus 1:6-7). The expression speaks of the leader’s public reputation. “Above reproach” means there is nothing for which he can be righteously accused. It does not speak of sinlessness, or no one could qualify. But a man who is “above reproach” is someone whose life is not marred by any obvious sinful defect or scandal that hinders him from standing before the flock as an example of consistent godliness.
Some sins, particularly scandalous sexual sins, carry a reproach that cannot be blotted out even though the offense itself is forgiven (Prov. 6:32-33). Forgiveness restores the person to a right relationship with God, but the stigma and scandal of the sin sometimes remains. In such cases a man may be forgiven and yet disqualified from spiritual leadership, because his life has not been a model of godly virtue.
Why doesn't our pastor know this obvious truth from God's Word?
The Gospel according to Warren
http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/Articles/print_articles.asp?ID=112
by Gary Gilley
By Bob DeWaay
This past weekend I received a call not unlike many dozens of previous communications from Christians concerned about unbiblical practices being introduced into their local churches. This particular one expressed a committed Christian’s concern that their large evangelical church was introducing mysticism and eastern practices under the guise of youth ministry. This church had even created a shrine of sorts in the church basement for young people to practice this mysticism.
The caller had researched this subject for several months, documented her church’s new practices and described why the practices were dangerous and unbiblical. Confident that her findings would help correct the church’s direction, she brought her research to the church leadership, only to be mollified and warned about having a bad attitude. In response she asked the leaders to compare these practices to Scripture, but to no avail. The story is all too common; why does it continue to happen?
Most evangelical churches have elders; these elders are responsible for the Lord’s flock. My interviews with people who have witnessed their churches being infiltrated by unbiblical teachings and practices have opened my eyes to a serious problem in our evangelical movement: elders who do not think that what is being taught and practiced in their church is important enough to judge biblically. This is serious. In many cases, these elders consider their primary job to be—support the senior pastor and his reputation at all costs. Their secondary job—watch over the financial well being of the church as a corporation. Their tertiary job—make sure no one rocks the boat. Thus, in these elders’ interpretation of their job description, the problem in the church becomes those concerned members who care about the integrity of the gospel message.
Most evangelical churches take seriously most of the qualifications of elders as listed in passages like 1Timothy 3. This means that they look for good family men who are faithful to their wives, have a good reputation, and are not guilty of scandalous behavior. And they do well to follow these guidelines. But these qualifications are not the end of the story. As a matter of fact, many unconverted people meet most of these guidelines. But a more important matter has been pushed aside: the requirement that elders guard the Lord’s flock from the wolves.
Let us consider Acts 20 where Paul gathered the elders in Ephesus and gave them instructions. Here is what Paul said:
Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. (Acts 20:28-30)
Paul is telling us that elders MUST guard the flock against wolves who bring false teaching. In this most important role, many are failing.
For example, someone recently told me of his frustrations with the elders of his church. The church, traditionally very conservative and solid biblically, began promoting Theophostic ministry—a ministry that involves teachings and processes that are not Biblical.[i] So he appealed to the elders, giving them evidence of serious error in this movement’s teachings and of the harmful consequences of allowing it. Rather than searching the Scripture and comparing the teachings of Theophostics with the Bible and making a decision, they referred the member to the counseling pastor who was promoting the ministry. The elders had no desire to concern themselves with this matter. If the reports I have received from dozens of people are true, this is too common.
Many elders are successful businessmen, but being a successful businessman neither qualifies nor disqualifies a man from being an elder. Churches seem to lean toward selecting such people because churches want to be successful businesses. But did Paul tell Titus to select businessmen-elders when he said: “holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict” (Titus 1:9)? No. If a man has no willingness to study and learn sound doctrine, is content to have only a superficial knowledge of the Bible, and is unwilling to correct false doctrine—that person is NOT QUALIFIED to be an elder. So a remedy for many of our church ills would be for our churches to select biblically qualified elders who are truly ‘apt to teach’ (1Timothy 3:2; 2Timothy 2:24 KJV). If we required this of all elders, we would not have all the false doctrine coming into the church that we see today. We would have elders with backbone who would even stand against the senior pastor if necessary should that pastor depart from the truth. A pastor who loves the truth and desires integrity in the church would earnestly desire to have elders like that around him, not merely people who are committed to whatever program he wants to promote.
Paul’s warning to the elders in Ephesus came true. Studying 1 and 2 Timothy, we find that false teachers did arise “from their own midst.” So Paul instructed Timothy about how to deal with the situation. He wrote: “As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus, in order that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines” (1Timothy 1:3).
The Greek word translated “doctrine” or “teaching” is found 15 times in Timothy and Titus out of 21 total references in the New Testament. The so-called “pastoral epistles” emphasize the importance of doctrine. Paul said that elders who “work hard in word and doctrine” should be given special honor. Elders must be “apt to teach.” Those who go astray in doctrine are to be corrected and if they refuse to repent they are to be rejected (Titus 3:10).
Combining what we know about elders from Acts 20, 1 and 2 Timothy, and Titus, it is clear that guarding the flock from false doctrine and teaching true doctrine is the elders’ most important role. Churches endanger the flock when they choose elders based on their business acumen, that they seem to be moral men and “nice guys,” or are likely to support the senior pastor at any cost while ignoring the importance of doctrine. Pastors who do not teach sound doctrine from the pulpit exacerbate the problem by making it unlikely that a pool of men qualified to teach the truth and correct error will ever arise in that church.
The answer is simple: we need to teach sound doctrine from the pulpit and as God raises up men trained in sound doctrine who love the truth and are willing to defend the truth against the wolves (and who meet the other qualifications) should be appointed elders. Paul’s words emphatically summarize this:
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; (2Timothy 3:16 – 4:3)
Pray that God will raise up people in our evangelical churches who will do what Paul instructs and that local churches would have godly elders who will guard the well being of the Lord’s flock.
True and False Unity
by Bob DeWaay
“Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ; so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel” (Philippians 1:27)
Over the past few months I have received many phone calls and emails like the following:
I need some advice; I have been told that I am a bad influence on the congregation and that I am dividing the body of Christ. What happened was that our pastor decided to change the church to the seeker sensitive model. He no longer preaches the gospel. The sermons are watered down and have little Biblical content. What Bible is used is from a paraphrase. The music is more entertainment than worship. Everything has changed. When I asked the pastor about it, he told me these changes were necessary for the church to reach new people and grow. I told him I strongly disagree and asked him to preach the gospel. He has most of the church board on his side. I was saved in this church and have supported it for many years. I do not want to be divisive; but it doesn’t seem right that Bible teaching and gospel preaching have been removed from the church. What shall I do?
We are in the midst of a radical change in evangelicalism that has left countless Christians starving for God’s Word in their churches. Proponents of the change have labeled as “divisive” those who resist the movement away from gospel preaching and Bible teaching. Opponents of the change are declared judgmental and selfish “Pharisees” and are told that they should be more loving toward others and quit hanging onto their old ideas about church. In short the “troublemakers” are told they must embrace the new paradigm or leave.
At issue is the true nature of Christian unity. Are we unified by God’s work of grace that converted us, giving us the unity of the Spirit with all true Christians, or are we unified organizationally with the corporate “vision” of the new paradigm change agents? My thesis is that Biblically defined unity is a gospel-centered unity that always works toward the unity of the faith. Biblically defined unity is never a unity centered about the corporate vision of the new religious marketing agents.2
True Unity is Gospel Centric
Paul exhorted the Philippians to be, “[S]tanding firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel” (Philippians 1:27b). The book of Philippians is filled with passages that show Paul’s passion for the gospel. He was imprisoned for the gospel, but he rejoices because his circumstances turned out for the furtherance of the gospel (Philippians 1:12). He saw the gospel as so important that he could even rejoice if it were preached by people having bad motives (Philippians 1:15-18). He rejoiced because the Philippians participated in the gospel (Philippians 1:5). As we saw in Philippians 1:27, for Paul, Christian unity was all about the faith of the gospel. To stand against opponents was a good thing because there will always be opposition to the gospel (Philippians 1:28-30). Christian unity starts with the gospel and ends with the resurrection from the dead for those who have joined Paul in seeing the surpassing value of knowing Christ (Philippians 3:8-14).
Therefore, there is no true Christian unity unless it is unity grounded in the gospel of Christ. This gospel includes the truths of the person and work of Christ (who He is, what He did, and why it is important: Philippians 2). Those who proclaim the gospel are always friends of Christian unity and will be welcomed by those who have been made one body by God’s work of grace. Paul rejoiced because the Philippians proved to be friends of the gospel. They were not ashamed of Paul’s imprisonment and had sent one of their own to risk his life to bring a gift to Paul. Paul had unity with the Philippians because of their common commitment to the gospel. This was not so with some other churches such as the one in Galatia. Anyone who speaks of Christian unity, but is not a clear proclaimer and supporter of the gospel, shows himself to be disingenuous.
...to be continued
True and False Unity
by Bob DeWaay
Part 2
Saved From Unhappy Circumstances or Saved from God’s Wrath?
A regrettable development in current evangelicalism is that the term “gospel” is often used in a way that lacks the content of the gospel as preached by Christ and His apostles. Today we hear, “come to Jesus and have a better marriage,” or “come to Jesus and find purpose in life,” or “come to Jesus and He will solve your economic or emotional problems.” None of these statements is the gospel. First of all, do the hearers of this weak message know who Jesus is? Perhaps some are Mormons who claim to believe in Jesus, but have a different Jesus. Secondly, do those who hear this message know what Jesus did for them? Maybe they hear that Christ died on the cross; but why? If Jesus came to solve their marriage problems, give them a better job, or get them off of drugs, why did He need to die on the cross for these matters? This confuses people because it is confusing. Jesus could help people solve problems without dying on the cross. God has the power to give people better marriages and find them better jobs without having His only begotten Son killed by murderous rebels.
Paul told the Philippians of Christ’s pre-existence with God and as God (Philippians 2:6), His death on the cross (Philippians 2:8), and His subsequent exaltation (Philippians 2:9). This is the essence of the person and work of Christ. This work of Christ was not to help people have less stress in the workplace, but to deliver them from the wrath of God against sin!
The true gospel is about God reconciling sinners (enemies) to Himself through the blood atonement:
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Romans 5:8-10)
The false “gospel” being preached today says that Jesus came to save people from a lack of purpose, lack of happiness, or from living a stress filled and problem filled existence. The true gospel delivers sinners who are God’s enemies (whether they know it or not) from God’s wrath through the blood atonement. This is the gospel Paul preached and this is the “faith of the gospel” around which Paul told the Philippians they should strive to unify. Any church that does not clearly and publicly preach this message from the pulpit, yet talks about “unity,” is promoting a false and man-made unity that is unbiblical.
The true Biblical understanding of the gospel is shown by Paul’s address to the Ephesian elders (Acts 20:17-35). Paul reminded them of his previous preaching to them: “how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house, solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 20:20, 21). The gospel says, “repent and believe.” If repentance is not preached, then the apostolic pattern is not being followed and the Great Commission is not being obeyed (see Luke 24:47). After God established a church in Ephesus through the gospel, Paul nurtured them. Here is his account of how he did so: “Therefore I testify to you this day, that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God” (Acts 20:27). Whatever of God’s purpose is revealed is to be declared publicly. The implication is that the preacher who knows the whole counsel of God but fails to preach it is guilty before God.
Striving for True Christian Unity
The New Testament pattern is gospel preaching (which includes the person and work of Christ and the need to repent and believe) followed by nurturing the flock with the whole counsel of God. This is God’s means of establishing true Christian unity. There will always be attacks against this unity. There were such attacks in Paul’s day and Paul prophesied that such attacks would come to the Ephesian church after his departure:
Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. (Acts 20:28-30)
This passage shows first there will be attacks from within the church that will threaten Christian unity. These attacks are against the faith of the gospel. Second, pastors (or elders or overseers, whatever term one uses) are commanded to guard the flock against these attacks from false teachers. The key words for church leadership, overseers, elders, and pastors, are used in Acts 20 of the same group of people.3 This shows that there is no “bishop” somewhere with final authority over the local church.
The epistles show that Paul always publicly refuted teachings that were changes or additions to the gospel of God’s grace. God graciously saving people through the gospel is the beginning and foundation of Christian unity. Those who teach things that are not consistent with this principle threaten true Christian unity. Paul’s response to those people who preached the true gospel with bad motives as opposed to those who preached a false gospel show how important it is that the gospel is preached accurately. He rejoiced about the former (Philippians 1:18) and anathematized the latter (Galatians 1:9). The content of the gospel is everything. If we cannot get that right, we are in grave peril! Paul writes, “But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8). The content is key; not how nice, kind, wonderful, or charming the preacher might be. If an angel from heaven preaching a different gospel should be rejected, how much more should some kindly pastor who seems so endearing. Some of the wolves devouring the church today are very nice people.
For Paul, to “[S]trive for the faith of the gospel” meant to fight all changes to the gospel and to challenge all compromises of the gospel. To so strive is the essence of Christian unity. But, when pastors tell their flock that members are violating Christian unity when they ask their pastors to preach the gospel—that is a perversion of the Biblical idea of unity. Those pastors are not concerned with the unity of the faith; they are concerned with conformity to their man-made agendas. Do not be intimidated by such persons. Those who strive for the faith of the gospel are true friends of Christian unity.
...to be continued
True and False Unity
by Bob DeWaay
Part 3
True Unity is Nurtured Through the Pure Teaching of Scripture
The Bible is God’s unchanging authority for all true Christians throughout the church age. It stands to reason that the more our thinking and practice are in line with the Bible, the more unified we shall be. People with a love for God because of His work of grace through the gospel and a love for the truth of Scripture will be more unified with one another as they learn Scripture together. This is how the very first church came together: “And they were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer” (Acts 2:42). It should be obvious that the “apostle’s teaching” is found in the New Testament, not in some new book that appeals to the unregenerate mind. Recent movements are promoting small groups using Acts 2:42 as the proof text.4 This passage is not about the size of the group; but about what they did that nurtured their faith. It is a perversion of this text to use it to promote the study of anything besides a literal translation of the Bible.5
The fact is that Christians who have been nurtured on the Scriptures purely taught will find themselves in unity with other such Christians even when they come from diverse cultures or different denominational affiliations. In recent experience I have enjoyed unity with people from a variety of denominational backgrounds because of our shared passion for the gospel and God’s word. On the other hand, I have met others with backgrounds similar to mine with whom I have had no such unity; we are at odds over just about everything.6
People with very different views on such matters as eschatology and modes of baptism can enjoy significant unity. It is not that these matters are not important—they are. Those who agree that Scripture settles all issues and that whatever Scripture says about any matter is ultimately authoritative, those people have a framework within which to work. However, if the gospel itself is compromised, there will be no unity.
Careful exegesis of Scripture nurtures the unity of the Spirit that God created through conversion. Not only does such Bible preaching and teaching unify our beliefs, but it brings unity between Christians as God uses His word to change lives. The unity of the Spirit Paul speaks of in Ephesians 4:3 is that which God created through baptizing us into one body: “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit” (1Corinthians 12:13). I have argued elsewhere that God’s Word is a means of grace.7 Since the unity of the Spirit is to be preserved so that Christians might demonstrate the virtues of humility, patience and love toward one another (see Ephesians 4:2; Colossians 3:12-14), we need an inward work of grace so that we overcome the fleshly motivations that would hinder this unity. This growth is nurtured by God’s Word: “like newborn babes, long for the pure milk of the word, that by it you may grow in respect to salvation” (1Peter 2:2). When human wisdom rather than God’s Word is preached in the public assembly, Christians are being robbed of one of God’s means of changing lives that would preserve the unity of the Spirit.
Furthermore, when Christians are not nurtured with the “pure milk of the word” we are not progressing toward the ultimate goal of the “unity of the faith” (Ephesians 4:13). The words of man that are substituted for the Word of God are a hindrance to the unity of the faith. Though “life enhancement”8 preachers may be popular because they appear to be more practical (i.e. relevant to the perceived needs of “seekers”), they have laid aside God’s agenda for the church. Again, thinking of the teaching in Ephesians 4 on unity, how shall we, “[A]ll attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:13) by listening to a series of sermons on how to cope with stress in the work place?
Exegetically sound, expository preaching preserves the unity of the Spirit by giving people God’s means by which He graciously changes lives and promotes progress toward the unity of the faith. Notice the problems that are to be therefore laid aside: “As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming” (Ephesians 4:14). The winds of doctrine that are blowing people about and undermining their precious faith must be resisted. Equipping the saints with God’s Word will give them the spiritual strength to withstand these winds and to progress in true Christian unity.
To summarize, gospel preaching aims to bring people into the unity of the Spirit because it is the means God has chosen for converting lost sinners and baptizing them into the body of Christ. Bible teaching spiritually nurtures those who have been converted and helps them grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. This is a means of mitigating fleshly attitudes and behavior, thus preserving Christian unity. Finally, the goal of gospel preaching and pure Bible teaching is that Christ’s body may come into the unity of the faith. I do not believe that full unity will happen until Christ returns. It is, however, the job of Christian leaders to guard and nurture Christian unity until He returns.
False Unity is Man-centered
We saw that in the New Testament, true unity is gospel-centric. The false unity that is being promoted today is not like that. In most cases it is unity under a religious leader’s “vision.” What is meant by the term “vision” is not the same as the Biblical usage. It is used in a modern marketing sense and relates to the leader’s mental image of what he wants the product and corporation to be like in the future.
When I was in seminary I was required to take a class that dealt with church growth. Part of the requirement was to make a field trip to witness a successful church. The one we visited had grown from a few hundred people to 2,000 through creating a children’s program that was so astounding and exciting that the kids dragged their parents to church. The other part of the program was to create community activities and teachings relevant to the parents who normally would not be interested in church. The pastor who had orchestrated this successful venture spoke at a seminary lecture. He spoke about vision and “vision casting.” He told us that Bill Gates had visualized the Windows platform and cast his vision for that to his corporation and actualized it through the processes of the corporation. In like manner, the pastor is to be a visionary who in his mind can see the church becoming something it is not, cast that vision to his key people, and set up the processes necessary to fulfill this vision. This is what that pastor had done successfully. The result was a thriving “seeker” church that was popular with people in the community.
The unity that is necessary to create a church molded from the mental image of a religious leader’s dream of an optimal future is unity under the religious corporation’s vision. To fulfill the dream each piece must work together and each piece must contribute to the purposes determined by the visionary leader. The wisdom of business gurus has been mined by Christian leaders who have created religious versions to help pastors market the church. That is precisely what I was taught in the seminary class. I resisted this publicly in the class; but many of the students bought it.
Here comes the problem. When this “vision” has to do with converting a Bible church into something else, there is an inevitable clash. The reason is that marketing the church to potential religious consumers in a given neighborhood is not the same as preaching the gospel. As I have said many times, the gospel offends sinners. The type of “vision” under which new paradigm churches unify is always linked to church growth. The church has to become something appealing to the unregenerate for this to happen in the way they envision it.
The vision that is cast to church leaders and then to the whole congregation is a plan to achieve church growth by studying a target market group and designing a church service that will appeal to that targeted group. People from that group are enticed to join the church and help reach more people like themselves.9 The clash comes because, to achieve this outcome, gospel preaching and pure Bible teaching from the pulpit have to go. Sinners need to hear the gospel to be converted. Regenerate Christians need Bible preaching and teaching to grow. The target group will never want it.
The marketing survey of a given neighborhood will not come back with this result: “the overwhelming majority of people in this neighborhood when queried by a scientific poll say they are looking for the gospel of Jesus Christ to be boldly preached, the message of the blood atonement, and that the Bible be clearly taught verse by verse.” The fact is that we are by nature objects of God wrath against sin (Ephesians 2:3). No unconverted sinner is going to say that he wants to hear that. The truth is that by nature we are rebels who trust self and man-made religion rather than come to God on His terms. Whatever “righteousness” we have before conversion is filthy rags. Which neighborhood sinner is going to say that he wants to hear preaching on such things? What people need (for the gospel to be preached calling them to repent and believe) and what they want (to have their religious appetites met) are totally incompatible. If what they want determines the message of the church, the church will become useless salt without savour (Matthew 5:13).
Once the leaders have made one simple decision—that the prevailing concerns and needs of the unbelieving community will determine the program and message of the church—the inevitable result is that gospel preaching and Bible teaching cannot be the mainstay of the church.
...to be continued
True and False Unity
by Bob DeWaay
Part 4
The New Vision Produces False Unity
Once it is adopted, the new corporate vision for church growth will change the nature of Christian unity. The vision is only successful if all the “team members” are willing to commit their talents, time and effort to in unity see the vision to fulfillment. Like the business corporation counterpart it was copied from, it requires everyone from the CEO to the warehouse workers to pull together for the same corporate vision and purpose. That is the reason books that train pastors to adopt this view and thereby change existing churches, teach them to be prepared to lose previous members, even most of them if it is necessary. They cannot succeed while spending energy trying to fight or cajole naysayers (i.e. born again Christians who think the gospel should be preached). The result is organizational unity under human authority in support of a corporate vision that has little to do with God’s true vision which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3).
One tactic that is commonly used by leaders who are converting Biblically defined churches to religious organizations designed to meet the needs of religious consumers is to accuse those who resist of being “divisive.” They cite Bible verses to unsuspecting Christians who have tender consciences and do not wish to do anything that would be harmful to their churches. These Christians know something is wrong and they notice the church becoming more worldly, less godly, and placing less emphasis on important Biblical doctrines. These Christians are told they are dividing the body and that the Bible warns about such people: “Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them” (Romans 16:17). The problem is that this verse is not about unity under a new corporate marketing plan. The verse says “contrary to the teaching which you learned” (i.e. from Paul).
Those who have replaced the unity of the Spirit and the unity of the faith with unity of the pastor’s personal vision are the truly divisive ones. They are guilty of the very charge they level against dissenters within the flock. Such leaders are causing dissensions and hindrances because they have willingly laid aside the teaching of Christ and His apostles in order to promote the wisdom of man.
A “factious” person in the Bible (Titus 3:10) was one who departed from sound doctrine or Biblical practice, not one who failed to help religious leaders fulfill their vision for the future success and glory of a religious corporation. For example, Luther was considered factious by the Roman Catholic Church. Whether he was or not has to be determined by examining his doctrine and practice with the Bible and doing the same for the Roman Church. One is not automatically a heretic or divisive because he or she has a disagreement with a man-made religious corporation. This is especially true if what is causing the division is the gospel itself.
Conclusion
Jesus said, “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division” (Luke 12:51). The gospel is divisive when preached to the unregenerate. Those who respond in faith are divided from those who reject it. Christian unity is unity under and through the gospel. It is created by God when He regenerates people and makes them one in spirit with other believers. It is nurtured through the teaching of sound Biblical doctrine that has as its goal the unity of the faith. False unity is unity that is demanded and prescribed by religious leaders to their own ideas and organizations. This is the unity that the religious leaders of Israel wanted and that Jesus threatened. His gospel divided their religious system and spoiled their unity. They decided they had to get rid of Him. The gospel will divide churches as well if they are not based on the gospel itself. The false unity of corporate vision to create growth through adding religious consumers to the organization will create a “church” that would be divided by the gospel if it were preached there. Those who promote pure gospel preaching are the friends of Christian unity. Those who promote man-centered “vision” for their religious systems are enemies of Christian unity. Be encouraged in your support for the gospel; the Bible says that you are pleasing Christ by so doing (Philippians 1:27).
This article gives a biblical view of unity, not the phony unity promoted by the current pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church.
I recently read the following commentary:
“The duties of pastors and elders are very clear in Acts 20 and the Pastoral Epistles. They are to teach true doctrine, correct false doctrine, and protect the flock from the wolves. Sadly, those who do so today are often accused of being divisive or sinning because they have “judged” when Jesus told us not to judge. This is a category error. We are not to judge motives or relative degrees of righteousness, but we must judge public teaching.”
My question is to those who have been quick to judge Bro. Steve. Do you believe that it is right to judge his motives? The talk of money, trips, houses, cars, and other such matters are a question of his motives. We all know that when we question a person’s motives, we are questioning his integrity. And when we question a person’s integrity we are in fact questioning his motives.
Many who posted about last Sunday evenings message showed an abundance of writings about what was the pastor's motive for the sermon. Was this biblical to question the motive?
Or do you just totally disagree with the commentary from above?
Proverbs 12:22, I am very much interested in your thoughts on this last question.
JMO: You are right. Motives and "intentions" do not matter. Scripture says the heart is deceitful who can know it? What does it matter what the motive for sin is?
Speculations on why Gaines does what he does or why he preaches such an obviously targeted sermon (the sermon itself used scripture totally out of context...I am not judging a 'motive' only the outcome) does not matter because sin is sin. False teaching is false teaching.
When we say we should not judge a book by it's cover, that is a lie. Jesus actually taught that we should. He taught it in several places but the best known is Matthew 7. He taught us we should judge a tree by it's fruit. He never said we should see WHY the tree bears rotten fruit but just to judge the fruit. Fruit is the outcome of a tree whether it is good or bad.
I think you are right that we should stop speculating about Gaines motives. What does it matter...there is enough rotten fruit to deal with that is quite visible.
Matthew 7 15"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Get that? We will recognize them by their fruit. Not by their motives or intentions.
By the way, let me head you off at the pass on Matthew 7: 1. If anyone on this blog is a shepherd and has committed the SAME sins that Gaines has committed: Pedophile mininster on staff, ignoring scripture, teaching scripture out of context, etc. and they judge him, they are WRONG and should repent.
I received this email today from Tim Coggins. I am assuming he got my email from the petition site....
Thank you for your prayers, support and signatures concerning this matter. There are some additional details that I have become aware in the past week. It is important in my opinion that you be made aware of these details.
On February 26, I was contacted and invited to meet for lunch with David Coombs, Mark Dougharty and Mike Hobday. At my request I was allowed to invite two other gentlemen to the meeting. Both of the men that I invited are members of the Church and well qualified to speak concerning the current issues surrounding the Church.
During this meeting, some very significant information was presented that I felt obligated to share with you concerning the Investigation Committees interview process. It would be negligent on my part to suppress the information that was given at this meeting. It is my intent to convey this information to you in openness and honesty, without regard to how the light of truth reflects on a personal level.
David Coombs stated clearly and precisely that the victim had been interviewed three times for a period of over six hours during the investigation. The setting of the interview was not precisely as the victim preferred, but there were some concessions made to accommodate him in this process. This information was in direct contrast to what had previously been stated by three separate parties in communications and correspondence that I had received. The only response that I offered Mr. Coombs, at that meeting, was that I had extremely conflicting information from sources closely associated with the victim.
Over the past several days, I have contacted sources and reviewed the original correspondence received to verify the accuracy of what had been understood. The results of that review process have led me to believe that the concerns that were held by these sources were of methodology in the interview process. They related that their opinion was that methodology employed did not offer concessions that were necessary. There was also the opinion that the interview process did not offer the ability to present factual information in entirety upon which to derive a conclusion concerning issues beyond the employment status of Paul Williams. It is apparent, however, that the investigative process did include multiple interviews with the victim.
David Coombs further stated that each individual involved in the investigation reviewed the final report and were given the ability to amend the report as to factual content if necessary. The final report was also given to members of the Rogers’ family to review and offer any corrections or modifications that they deemed necessary. It has been verified by one of those involved in the investigation that they did receive and were given the opportunity to review and modify the report. Many others that were involved in the investigative process I do not hold a personal relationship with, and feel that I should not impose upon them to address this issue.
The meeting afforded the opportunity to discuss several other issues affecting the church and seemed to open a door of communication that had previously been closed. The voice of many members of Bellevue Baptist Church has been heard and the administration through David Coombs has responded in a positive and constructive manner. I personally am grateful for his sensitivity to the interest of many members and openness in addressing these during this meeting. There was a tremendous feeling of optimism on my part that perhaps with this sensitivity, openness and honesty that the membership of Bellevue Baptist Church may indeed be restored to oneness by the bonds of love in truth provided through our great Savior, Jesus Christ.
To conclude I would like to reiterate that every attempt has been made to express the truth concerning this particular issue without regard to the effects of that truth on a personal level. Constructing this letter has proved how difficult it can be to effectively communicate pertinent information of relevance devoid of omissions. It has reminded me of the wonderful gift that we have been given in the infallible, inerrant, indestructible Word of God.
Thank you again for your support and encouragement,
Tim Coggins
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