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About Me
- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
725 comments:
1 – 200 of 725 Newer› Newest»Karen said...
Derrick Calcotte,
You need to shut down that petition page - it's been hijacked by infants!
Karen,
I did not start that petition. I saw it posted on this site, clicked the link and signed it. It just so happened that I was the first one to sign it.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify that though.
While we are on the subject of shutting things down, allow me to say that I think this blog should be shut down.
The case of Christ is being damaged more and more by the minute by all the hate, bile, and vitriol that is posted here by both those who claim to support the pastor, and those who claim to oppose him.
I say "claim" there because I think that some comments on both sides are so over the top that they can't possibly be by someone actually trying to represent their stated position, but actually trying to discredit the position they are saying they support.
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
dcalcote@msn.com
Karen said...
Sorry for the misunderstanding, Derrick. I thought you started it, but I agree with you. Whoever is posting to that petition in an inappropriate way is not funny and we are not laughing.
karen
11:51 AM, March 26, 2007
See how easy that is, y'all? Derrick and I disagree on some stuff, but just a little niceness to each other and we can still be friends. Try it, you might like it! :)
karen
Karen said...
Sorry for the misunderstanding, Derrick. I thought you started it, but I agree with you. Whoever is posting to that petition in an inappropriate way is not funny and we are not laughing.
karen
Karen,
And again, thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify that.
And while I agree with you that some of the "petition signers" are being childish, there is also quite a bit going on here that is very inappropriate as well.
As you say it is not funny. It is dishonoring to our Lord and is a terrible witness to a lost and dying world.
On another subject, I noticed that you will be seeking another church at this point. While it is a sad thing, I pray that the Lord will work in the situation and lead you to a fellowship where you may bring glory to Him in both service and in worship.
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
Thanks Derrick,
It is sad, but I think it's what God wants, so I've got to go with it. BTW, my decision has nothing to do with my parents, so please don't assume they are leaving as well. You have history with my dad - If he wants to talk to you about his opinions, ask him. You know him well enough to know he'll tell you.
karen
Would anyone care to share their opinion of James Sundquist's post on the previous thread?
First he encouraged a lawsuit against the church, and now he's encouraging - what, exactly?
Maybe we should call the police.
My thoughts on the meeting:
1. I did not vote for the secret ballots.
2. I did not vote to give the seminary $3 million dollars. (I think if there had been more to the motion than just let's give them $3 million, I think it would have come off better. Where did that 3 mill figure come from?)
3. I did vote for the conflict of interest amendment.
4. I did not vote to adjourn the meeting.
5. I would not have voted for the two pronged motion that was on the floor at he time the meeting ended. Seperately. I would have voted differently, although I want to have business meetings, I think quartlerly is too much.
JMHO,
Memphis
I found it interesting that the "Celebration" service brought out the same things that had been going on for the past 15 years. There was nothing new - they took credit for everything that was already in place and most of it is in a state of deterioration compared to when Dr Rogers was in leadership. What's the purpose of having a "celebration" service, when there is nothing new to celebrate? God gave the increase of souls saved and HE alone is responsible for that - otherwise - the service was a sham...including the "business" meeting. They had no intention of bringing anything of significance to a real vote. Most of the people that voted yes on the budget did not have a clue what all it involved - it was not a line item budget - it was a bloated summary of projections and glossy expectations.
The committee report and appointments that passed was seething with in-your-face contempt if you read the appointment and chair positions. Does ANYONE know that STEVE TUCKER has been on the MISSIONS COMMITTEE for more than 10 years when the max is 3!!! What gives with that - it is a budget of over 5 million dollars and he has total control without accountabiility - WHAT ARE YOU THINKING FOLKS?
Enough said...I have come to the conclusion that the leadership is status quo and there are too many members that prefer to remain ignorant and "vote" their ignorance. This is not Christ-like behavior!!!
Mom4,
You're right... there are thousands of us idiots and a dozen of you are filled with wisdom.
Come on... who are you trying to fool (other than yourself?)?
Memphis said...
My thoughts on the meeting:
1. I did not vote for the secret ballots.
RESPONSE: If the secret ballots had passed, then the staff could have voted their conscience without retribution.
2. I did not vote to give the seminary $3 million dollars. (I think if there had been more to the motion than just let's give them $3 million, I think it would have come off better. Where did that 3 mill figure come from?)
RESPONSE: I am not sure, but it sounde like it could be 10% of the 30 million surplus in reserves. Dr Rogers would have LOVED to help the seminary - too bad it did not pass - there are young men of God waiting in the wings and that vote may have stopped someones seminary education..
3. I did vote for the conflict of interest amendment.
RESPONSE: Good! Now, the only problem is enforcement. Seeing how the committee on committees police the committees...I wonder how that will work?
4. I did not vote to adjourn the meeting.
RESPONSE: Good..again!! It was obviously planned in advance and the vote was too close to call. Motions were made to call for a count, but the mic was shut off. HMMM...wonder why?
5. I would not have voted for the two pronged motion that was on the floor at he time the meeting ended. Seperately. I would have voted differently, although I want to have business meetings, I think quartlerly is too much.
RESPONSE: I guess when you have one shot at a motion and the two-prong motion is legal - you will go for it..but I would like to know why you would not want quarterly business meetings? The present by-laws call for monthly meetings - this would have extended the time between them (of course, we are NOT even having them now) and the second portion of the motion was a no-brainer for most...but then there was opposition for even that - which is scary!!
Thanks for your post!
JMHO,
Memphis
am,
I did not call you an idiot, I said "ignorant of the facts."
II TIM 2:15 is the only difference between our level of knowledge.
Mom4,
That's easy to respond to... it only requires one word...
Whatever.
Go present all of your inflammatory remarks to God and stop posting them here... hopefully you won't be ashamed.
Can you stick with the same name please - is it annoyingmouse or sickofyourlies? oops "anony moose" or "sickofyourdiatribes"..
Mom4 asked:
but I would like to know why you would not want quarterly business meetings?
Response:
In my opinion, even monthly meetings are to often. I do not think enough people would show up that often. I know that after what the church has been through, there might be alot of people show up for awhile, but I do not think they would sustain the nunmbers for monthly meetings. I think a semi annual meeting is more realistic.
Again, JMHO!
Memphis
Josh knew exactly what he was doing yesterday, as well as what would happen if he got voted down.
He presented the two unrelated motions together so that people would vote for one and accidentally "OK" the other.
He knew that by doing this, if he got shot down, emotionalisic rants like "sickofthelies" and "mom4" would be on here warning people to rescue their children from the invading pedophiles.
Again... whatever.
You are so clever, playing with my name like that...
whatever.
Dear MOM4,
The name is like "Donna".
Wow... new lows all the time.
Are you jealous because you can't teach the Bible like her?
What's the deal here?
MOM4,
Noticed a mispelled word in the post to you. Let's try it again!
The name is likely "Donna"!!!
Mom4,
Stand strong - although you don't need me to tell you that! Ignore those who are here today just to be like gnats in summertime. Don't bother swatting at them; they'll just come back for more.
karen
Can't teach it wearing her plastic false face.
I feel so sorry for you people...
Did you get picked on a lot in high school or something?
There's got to be some reason why you're all so irrational and hateful.
The devil knows the Bible well enough to teach a Sunday School class.
karen
memphis,
A semiannual meeting is better than nothing! I sure do wish you had made that motion! I would have supported you with my vote!
We love you, MOM4!!!
Jesus is with you, Girl!!!
Don't back up and don't quit or get discouraged!!!
It is obvious that serpents creep onto this blog from time to time.
Ignore them and we will do the same.
Sure does, but would the Holy Spirit endorse him the same way that He endorses Donna?
Hundreds of women's lives have been positively impacted by her ministry...
so yeah, I'll bet the devil is behind it.
Come on, Karen, you can do better than that.
Integrity Counts, right?
Buzz, buzz, buzz!
Yes, I was completely unpopular in high school so I saved up my irrational behavior to heap on Steve Gaines. Oh, I am so glad you figured me out - saves me money on therapy!
karen
Hundreds of women's lives have been positively impacted by her ministry...
You know this, how?
karen
Yay, Karen!!!
To use "Cakes" expression....
You ROCK!!!!
Come, LORD Jesus! said...
Dear MOM4,
The name is like "Donna".
1:39 PM, March 26, 2007
I was thinking it was Bratton in disquise, but he has been banned..almost too immature to be Donna, more likely a child - unless you know something I should know?
Don't bring The Holy Spirit into this as though He has part in Donna's evils...lest you find yourself blaspheming.
You are treading dangerous ground!
mom4,
Mike Bratton is way too mature to change his name just to get on the blog - if he wanted to be heard here, he'd be here.
karen
Thanks for your support fellow truthseekers - I get amused with the quandry that most of these guys/gals get themselves in..I can't help but stir the pot...that really get's em chomping at the bit so they will show their true colors...and it doesn't take long..
MOM4,
Donna is capable of doing anything.
Maybe hubby's had to "look at his program" again and she's ticked at the world!
"Don't bring The Holy Spirit into this as though He has part in Donna's evils...lest you find yourself blaspheming.
You are treading dangerous ground!"
Oooh, scary...
And you aren't treading dangerous ground by discrediting His work through someone?
Mom4 said:
memphis,
A semiannual meeting is better than nothing! I sure do wish you had made that motion! I would have supported you with my vote!
Reply: I was sitting in the balcony, and didn't see any microphones up there :)
Maybe hubby's had to "look at his program" again and she's ticked at the world!
Ok, you lost me on that one - what does that mean?
Also, 4545 posted something about Steve having a case or something on the last thread...what's that about?
karen
My flesh is rising up and I don't like how it feels. The LORD Jesus is not being glorified by it either. To Him, I apologize, and to "tribes", I bid bye-bye in acknowledgement and rebuttal. I will not disgrace God Almighty again by answering you in my flesh.
Karen,
Don't you remember the Sunday morning several months ago when Gaines (who let his own daughter be a cheerleader) said that when he is at a ballgame and the cheerleaders are doing their thing, that he looks at his program (as one would do if plagued by the spirit of lust)?
I appreciate that.
Likewise, I would encourage you to not make stupid statements about our pastor's wife having a "plastic face" and then discrediting her ministry by calling it "evil."
Maybe your flesh got a good jump with those remarks?
Even though this wasn't addressed to me...
"Don't you remember the Sunday morning several months ago when Gaines (who let his own daughter be a cheerleader) said that when he is at a ballgame and the cheerleaders are doing their thing, that he looks at his program (as one would do if plagued by the spirit of lust)? "
No, that's called being smart. Who would encourage their husbands to stare? Anyone?
I do the same thing... either look at the program or talk to a friend. My wife appreciates it and understands why I am doing it.
I admire you, CLJ, to be able to recognize yourself in the flesh and refusing to "go there" anymore.
I didn't know anything about the comment re: looking at the program. I won't comment since I didn't hear it for myself.
I plan to attend Trinity Baptist this Sunday - anyone want to join me?
karen
Karen,
We will likely be returning to Calvary Chapel. It is a wonderful Church. God's Word is explored verse by verse and the preacher there is only out to glorify The LORD Jesus.
It is a non-denominational Church. A non-denomational Church is what I attended in Kentucky for about 12(?) years or so before Stephen and I married last April and started attending Bellevue with him. His home has been Memphis for years and he had attended Bellevue for 9 or so years before we left it due to the on-going disgrace of The LORD Jesus at BBC by the wolf and hirelings in residence there now.
We left heart-broken as so many did but we continue to seek God to end satan's reign of terror at BBC so that we can go back there with it being restored by The LORD Jesus to the place of honor to God that it was in the days of Bro. Rogers.
Thanks for the invitation, though.
Calvary Chapel in Bartlett? We may try there too. I've been all over town trying to see where we fit. Thanks for the suggestion.
karen
sickofthediatribe,
well, hello cary..
you just can't get away from your own hallmark can you..
The problem, cary, is that it all originates in the same brain, flows thru the same fingers and onto your keyboard.
The names changes, but the immature ranting is so obvious.
Nice try, though.
I can spot you a mile away!!
Run along, now..this is a forum for adults..not children.
"God's Word is explored verse by verse"
Very wise. Look for a church where the pastor exposits scripture in context. It will not guarantee that it is exposited correctly but at least you can study on your own, too, being a Berean.
"Come, LORD Jesus! said...
Can't teach it wearing her plastic false face. "
Think what you will of the woman, but God created that face your speak of. This is a new low and it is Sad. NASS was kind enough to delete the comment where someone called me an idiot yesterday but it seems like no one is holding back anymore.
Karen, Tim, and those that do not stoop to this level, please just remember that you are sometimes judged by the company you keep, and this is why people don't take your more legitimate concerns seriously enough.
Karen, you have email.
I am more than grieved after yesterday morning. I believe the Holy Spirit is grieved today at the tone of this blog.
In the turbulent, swirling emotion of the aftermath of yesterday’s “celebration” and business meeting, many are grieving, frustrated, angry, and ready to give up. Yet, attacking our BBC brothers and sisters in Christ dishonors the Lord. Is that what we are trying to achieve?
Is the administration the real problem? Is Steve the real problem? Of course not. We face a formidable unseen enemy. An enemy enraged and threatened as his hold on lives has been revoked and his possessions have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ. He is the one out to destroy BBC and the stop the damage BBC has made on his kingdom in the past decades.
Is it time to put the past behind us?
Do we need to acquiesce? DEFINITELY NOT, we do need to STAND FIRM AND STRONG for truth and integrity. However, we are to do this we clean hands and pure hearts, in God’s way and time.
The real victory will be won on our knees. No man, no business meeting, and not even a new pastor can fix the problem at Bellevue. It is a time for repentance and turning to God; a time for crying out to Him in desperation for healing. It is time to seek him whole heartedly; to remember God’s ways and to walk in them.
“If My People who are called by My name, will humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, them will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.” 2 Chron. 7:14
Karen,
Did you sit with your parents Sunday. I think I was sitting close by?
bepatient,
I got it and will respond.
Overflowing,
I was so sick - STILL! - yesterday that I had to pass. My parents were there.
karen
One quick idea without catching up today....
Why did BM say the word Homosexual not once but twice while debating with JM about the 2 prong motion.????
The H word was not a part of the document by SBC.
MAYBE it was the "CUE WORD" for JA to stand and end the meeting????
Still SICK about the way CW was treated by the admin.
back to work....
Karen said...
The devil knows the Bible well enough to teach a Sunday School class.
Karen,
Have you ever been to Steve Tucker's BFC class? I understand he has a liberal stance on abortion..now how did that pass the scriptural smell test?? AND he is chairman of the MISSIONS committee again after 10+ years - overseeing a 5 Million Dollar budget without accountability. AND HE WAS APPROVED YESTERDAY!!!
Rather than responding with hostility and disrespect, we need to look beyond the surface to recognize the real enemy. The real enemy is not flesh and blood. “For we are not fighting against flesh and blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.” (Eph. 6:12).
As the father of lies, he is cunning and deceitful, crafty and highly intelligent, and a very powerful foe. He dwells in obscurity. In fighting each other we are batting at the wind.
While the source of evil, turmoil, divisiveness, and fighting, our enemy strives to keep our focus on anything other the real problem. We blame and attack other people. Trying to fix the symptom without facing the real problem is not the solution. The symptoms cry out for healing. Yet a bandage is not going to get rid of a cancer. Ignoring the symptoms is not the solution either.
The problem at BBC is like a cancer and it requires drastic intervention. This intervention must come from the Great Physician. We haven’t the wisdom nor the strength to tackle anything this serious (nor to resolve the problems that have led to it).
The devil may incite Christians to do evil, to compromise, to act in the flesh, and will do everything he can to pull our heart from God. While formidable and powerful, he is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. He is a defeated foe, his defeat and fate were forever sealed at Calvary by Jesus death and resurrection. As believers, Jesus lives in us with resurrection power. “Greater is He who is in us, than he who is in the world.”
We do need to respond in strength. Not the strength or our fleshly nature, but in the strength of the Lord. We are to put on the spiritual armor God has provided for us. (Ephesians 6). We are to stand firm and fight. “We are human, but we don’t fight as humans do. We use God’s mighty weapons, not worldly weapons to throw down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments. We destroy every proud obstacle that keeps people from knowing God. We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.”
In the midst battles, large or small, when the forces of evil shout and threaten through people or circumstances, God commands us to stand firm clothed in the spiritual armor He provides. We are not to run at the enemy’s roar (in whatever form it takes). While our enemy does “go around roaring and seeking who he can devour” and destroy, we are assured Jesus, who is in us, is more powerful than the forces of evil.
Jesus is already victorious. The battle has already been won. The enemy must desist and flee when we resist in Jesus name.
Our emotional energy should be applied to spiritual warfare and seeking God’s face to know what He wants us to do. Discussing facts with others must be done in truth with courteous and respect.
Dear Be Patient,
Just a quick note after catching up on the blog.
When I spoke of a "plastic false face", I certainly was not speaking of the woman's natural face that God Almighty gave to her. I was speaking of the "mask" that so many discern about her.
"Sickofyourdiatribes" got several of us off on a bad start this afternoon as he delightfully pushed our flesh buttons....but we were without excuse for responding in the flesh. God is never pleased with our flesh even when we are responding to flesh.
(offline)
Yesterday it was proven these men will stop at nothing to prevent the minority from even having a voice. What are they afraid of?
Sign if you think they should go
We can begin to heal if they all go. They need to step aside so trust can be restored.
Sign if you think they should go
ydoesitmatter,
Please edit your post to remove the victim's name. That is a standing agreement on this blog, but I agree with you. He sould be heard whether they want to listen or not. Now is the time for truth to stand about everything! I think once it does, we can begin healing..and perhaps the Lord will see fit to send us a revival!
I've been hearing the leadership does not want the church body to hear from Paul Williams victim. When he approached the mic I think they about threw a rod.
I'll tell you what, if he still wants his story to get out, he will be heard and there is nothing they can do to stop him.
As for the victim, I'm praying for him and his family. I cannot imagine the courage it took to even try to speak. WOW!
PW's victim is actually a survivor.
I applaud and admire his courage.
I do not know him personally, but I have spoken with people who do, and they have nothing but good things to say about this young man.
My dear brothers and sisters: This is going to be the first in a series of posts regarding the "business meeting" that was held at Bellevue yesterday. I will try to keep each short as I can.
Once again, STOP MENTIONING THIS VICITM BY NAME, HIS FATHER OR ANY OTHER MEMBER OF HIS FAMILY. For those of you that insist on using their names, you do not know this victim personally or you wouldn't do it. Ok?
David Brown
David,
Please tell us how to refer to them. We've had the biggest scandal ever and much of it centers around this man and his son, the victim. I'm not being argumenative. We are far from through discussing this matter and it is difficult to know what we can and cannot say. What should we do?
Thank you. I appreciate all you do.
My dearest brother and sisters in Christ: I have watched with horror the posts that have taken place on the blog in the last few days. It is hard to imagine that we are the same brothers and sisters that will spend eternity together.
I prayerfully request that people on both sides tone it down and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you before you hit that publish button.
No, I am not rolling over but no one wins when we get into the vile name calling that has taken place here.
Having said that I do have much more to say. Some will agree and some will not. My sole purpose in speaking out is protect our children. So please don't take what I am about to say to bolster your arguments. I am only concerned about victims and protecting our children. Nothing else.
David Brown
David Brown
gmommylv...
Maybe you'd better delete your 4:29 PM, March 26, 2007 post? Brown is in here again complaining about the name use. Everybody knows the names, but just thought you'd want to know. It really upsets him.
Dear brothers and sisters: In response to Josh Manning, Brian Miller used the term "homosexual" at least twice yesterday. I am not sure why he did.
Josh was trying to introduce the 2002 SBC resolution that dealt with sexual misconduct, in particular with ministers. NO WHERE IN THAT RESOLUTION IS THE TERM "HOMOSEXUAL" EVER USED.
By far the majority of pedophiles are hetrosexual. I should not have remind Brian or Dr. Gaines of that. There are no "uncharted" waters here.
NO it is not only a sin but a crime. The Catholic Church tried to create a smoke screen a few years ago by trying to remove homosexual priests. To the masses that "follow and swallow" that seemed a good way to clear up their clergy sexual abuse problem. Only problem was they failed.
They tried to cloud over the issue by implying that homosexuals are pedophiles. That is just wrong. No two ways about it.
And to dare try to do that yesterday was flat wrong. I would expect more from Brian Miller. Is this the same person that is the Chairman of the Deacons and in charge of ECS?
It is called sexual abuse for a purpose. I don't care if someone is only touched inappropriately or raped, it is ALL SEXUAL ABUSE. PERIOD! It is also Soul Murder.
There are NO UNCHARTED WATERS. Just follow the 2002 SBC resolution. It has been there for almost 5 years now. Yes I do expect more from a Senior Pastor of 20 years.
David Brown
Dear Ima: No it really upsets the VICTIM. And that is all that needs to be said.
Dear brothers and sisters: One last point and it is the main one. Why was this dear victim left standing at the mike yesterday? It was not like he just appeared there. I think that most saw him slowly walking down the steps to the mike even if they did not know who it was.
I have continued to say that Bellevue Baptist Church has NOT done one thing to make victims feel comfortable in coming forward and seeking help.
Yesterday we saw one more example to back up my arguments. Was it too much trouble to "suspend" the proceedings to allow this dear young man a chance to speak?
He was denied by the Senior Pastor back in December before this thing went public and again the Senior Pastor denied him yesterday. Why?
I am certain that no one would have objected in hearing from him. What would he have said? Now that is the question.
Please be in prayer for him and his family. Once again he has been humilated by the very church he was raised in. Boy it sounds like what the Catholic Church has done to so many victims of clergy abuse. Why?
Why, because they do not want to hear what we as victims have to say. No it is not pretty but we are only trying to protect our children. Is that too much to ask?
David Brown
sickofyourdiatribes,
Obviously, you have no concept of how business meetings operate or how a motion is presented.
Another motion could have been made to divided the question in two parts. Simple as that.
There was not a political game being played that would force anyone to vote in favor of both or not at all.
I believe that there were probably a number of people just as you were that had no idea how Robert's Rules work.
I also wish that those that were too hungry to stay and continue the meeting would have left and let those that were truly interested stay and debate. At the very least, a motion to recess for a couple of hours could have been made and then everyone could have went to eat and came back to continue in a civil manner.
Tim,
"There was not a political game being played that would force anyone to vote in favor of both or not at all"
Be Honest!!!
A church calling itself "congregation approved"?...since when?...a leadership who refuses to have more than 1 business meeting a year, then stifles any debate or discussion at the one it has...has no business calling itself congregation approved...it's the leadership and yourself who need to get honest.
I read comments on the petition site that said something about Steve Gaines having an apartment in New York. What in the world is that all about? I must have missed something.
You Were Right
You won
You were right!
Right—by Robert’s Rules of Order.
What did you win?
A “moment” of satisfaction
For knowing you had won the vote—
The vote that would adjourn the “body of Christ”
And deny them the vote
To have quarterly business meetings
And to affirm the SBC’s Resolution
On sexual predators in the ministry.
What else did you win?
Another opportunity to hide the truth
On issues that could be embarrassing.
Well, what did you lose?
In my eyes and thousands of others
You lost respect
And a reputation of integrity
You lost the opportunity to bring peace
And unity through fairness and truth.
We lost!
But we were also right—
Right—by God’s Rule of Love.
What did we lose?
We lost the vote to adjourn
And cast the vote
That could allow quarterly business meetings
And to affirm the SBC’s Resolution
On sexual predators in the ministry.
What else did we lose?
We lost the opportunity to unveil the truth
On different concerns
So that we could fairly judge the issues and
Come to a right conclusion.
What did we win?
The knowledge that we had done it right
Not only by Robert’s Rules of Order
But by God’s Rule of Love—
Respectfully and courteously!
What else did we win?
Respect and a reputation of integrity
In the eyes of thousands of others.
In the words of another—
“I would rather temporarily lose
in a cause that will ultimately succeed
Than temporarily succeed with a cause
that will ultimately fail.”—Adrian Rogers
Whatasham,
Beautifully put and very sad.
Finance: You have the nerve to post about me making personal attacks?
Also, why are you not holding those on "your side" accountable for their hate speech? Why not?
It is in your face and made personal on purpose.
onlyamember: Please stop putting words in my mouth. Also, so you are saying it ok to personally attack others and their family because as you say it is a family issue??
4545
I think Finance Guy addressed everyone. Please read his post again.
onlyamember: So you disrespect Brother Steve fo his football jersey being in a case (not his idea), but you never had a problem with many almost worshiping Dr. Rogers? So called "shrines" all over the church and nothing ever said by you or anyone else?? Wonder why?? How very sad.
And do not even say that I am saying something against Dr. Rogers, far from it. I knew him and loved him.
I am just amazed at the levels many of you are taking this. It shows a great deal.
4545
Are you lining us all up and giving us a spanking? :)
Piglet: If he is, I'll pass. God can discipline me. And I respect Him.
Piglet: I didn't want to leave such a small animal out here all alone. :)
4545 isn't spanking anyone. He's been running from me for three days now.
4545, STILL waiting...
Oh, our little piglet is not alone here. :)
4545,
I have the need to ask you a question. Why do you come here to this blog?
what exactly do you need oc?
Exactly what you promised,45. You know what I'm talking about. Reread the posts. You can't remember what you promise?
Concerned
Jesus said "I will never leave you nor forsake you." But you knew that!
The subject line of this thread is "Polls". Most of what has been posted is trash talk. Whatasham - thank you, your post said it all.
Please remember the basis of our concern - integrity. Please let your post reflect the same.
Piglet and Socwork: I do know that....and I am thankful for it every day. But the blog is a scary place today! Lurking or not, none of us are alone.
whatasham
Lily is right. Your post really does spell it out. Thanks for your insight!
Concerned
I'm not sure why these folks come back since it appears they have the "vast majority" like they thought.
Do they like kicking piggies when they're down or do they still see us as a threat?
Piglet: Ahhhh...the million dollar question. I think the fact that the meeting was abruptly stopped answers that question. After all, what kind of a mean person would want to hurt such a "small animal" as a piglet?
Concerned
Give me a minute and then check your mail....
4545,
You say you loved Dr. Rogers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you not the man who referred to him as Spinmeisterin Chief or something along those lines. Isn't that what you said to Dr. Spradlin?
Concerned,
Thanks for the info on facebook.
I'm really in the dark ages, huh?!
Please resist the temptation to tango with 4545 and others of the same vein. Just compare it to slamming your head against a concrete wall. What's the point?
You are right concerned, it has gotten pretty ugly today and the past few days again. Makes me sad. As I drifted off to sleep last night, I was thinking about how grieved the Lord must be watching his church snap and claw at each other like this. Then I was thinking about the lampstands in Rev 2 and the implications of this:
Rev 2:5
Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
sheepless: I have college kids....I try to listen to see what they are up to! Hope it helped.
prov 12:22 said,
You say you loved Dr. Rogers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you not the man who referred to him as Spinmeisterin Chief or something along those lines. Isn't that what you said to Dr. Spradlin?
What's the story here?
"Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another." Mark 9:50
"Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one."
Colossians 4:6
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. 14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."
Matthew 5:13
socwork: a humbling verse. I just had to take a deep breath while reading it.
I've learned that the people you
care most about in life
are taken from you too soon
and all the less important ones
just never go away
:)
Socwork,
Last August, when Steve Tucker and Chuck Taylor went over the seminary to get Dr. Spradlin back in line, Steve Tucker made a comment along those lines.
concerned: Yes, I would say it's very sobering.
25+yrs, glad to see you here this evening... your post is a breath of fresh air on the blog (ok, the verses you posted are a breath of fresh air on the blog. But you posted them.)
Ah ok, thank you Prov 12:22.
Proverbs 12:22 said...
I read comments on the petition site that said something about Steve Gaines having an apartment in New York. What in the world is that all about? I must have missed something.
9:08 PM, March 26, 2007
What is that about, anybody know?
Sheepless,
What would he maintain a New York apartment for?
Does anyone know if that is even true?
Lily,
Follow the money, huh? That isn't what was implied in those petition comments. Interesting thought though.
New York is deal central. If you're working to promote money making deals - even in the realm of a ministry - New York offers a variety of opportunities. Rent would be a tax deductible expense as you pursue those opportunities.
Lily deleted and reposted to correct a grammatical typo.
It is bedtime for Bozo.
The address on the petition before it was deleted was in Queens - that does not seem like an area for deal making - my husband's uncle lives in Manhatten so I will try to contact him to see what all that area is known for. Does he make many trips to New York? When was this? Recently?
After reading the blog for the last few days, I could only think of one verse...
"Jesus wept."
For those in the "majority"... remember that heaven outnumbers you and sees how you treat a minority--and He hears the prayers of all.
For those in the minority... Know that one + God = a majority.
Whatasham's post above said it all.
Be salty. Shine brightly through Him.
Remember, the Holy One is coming and His kingdom's work won't be tabled.
Some day we will sit at table with apostles, prophets, martyrs, and saints of all ages. Let's live toward that age and not be bound by this present darkness.
2 Timothy 2:19 says, "Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: 'The Lord knows those who are His,' and, 'Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.'"
Proverbs 12:22,
The truth shall set you free, or maybe NOT?!
IF he is keeping another apartment in NY, that could account on his need for such a mammoth salary??
Amen, 25+yrs.
Mom4,
Queens is hardly the financial district. If I was going to have a NY apartment, I would not chose Queens.
Whatasham-
Unfortunately we are seeing by-products of our competitive society. It is sad when the jock mentality of "get the gold or go home" invades a local church, but we live in a society where people like to keep score. How can we know if we are "getting ahead?” Getting appointed to the right committees? Becoming a deacon, or deacon officer? Sometimes we succeed at maneuvering the outcome of public meetings instead of “providing all things honestly.”
Controlling information is a lot easier than controlling people- they tend to vote with their feet. It hurts to see hundreds and possibly thousands of good people leaving. It was made clear that 1558 people have joined last year, but how many have left? It is important for our leadership to pay attention to who is leaving, not just an overall tally.
25+
Wonderful reminder. Thank you.
I have no idea of where the rumor came from about a New York aparment. So, it will remain in the rumor mill. I did not intend to add fuel to a rumor, but just went with a logical thought process gleaned from past experiences.
REPEAT: TIME TO GO TO BED BOZO.
If he is just going on business, why would he need an apartment? The rent there is in the thousands per month for a tiny apt. - we have closets bigger here than a thousand dollar a month apt there?
Looks to me like a business trip would only necessitate a hotel stay?
Folks,
Through out this ordeal I have gained a new found appreciation for the books of I & II Timothy. My mother named me from this Bible character but I never considered it very much until now.
She was going to name me Mark after the Gospel writer, but alas I had a cousin born months before I was that was given that name, so Timothy, I am.
Of course, I realize that this seems off subject, but perhaps I could recommend these two books to anyone interested.
Mom 4,
Was that on the Support Gaines petition, what did it say, I missed it too.
lily,
I agree - time for bed - but as far as the NY apt goes - it seems that is how all the truth has been uncovered to date - someone knows something and lets it slip and the cat is out of the bag so to speak! We will see about this one..
Good night all.
sheepless,
almost didn't catch your post - there were 3 entries on he petition and if I remember correctly, one was inquiring why SG would have an apt in NY and said that he knew and soon we all would - the next said it was in queens and there was one other asking for more info - there were a couple of others that looked like they were in jest and they have been deleted along with the one's about the apt, but I don't think they were related. That is all I can remember - maybe they will post on here and we can have an opportunity to ask questions???
Good night.....again!
Wow, yet another rumor.
4545,
It's no rumor that you are STEVE TUCKER is it?
25+
You have really encouraged me this evening!!!
Thank you. :)
Folks,
Please, unless you have some evidence other than your impression of his tone, please don't say that 4545 is Steve Tucker. As I said before, I don't know him, but I place great trust in those who do know him personally who have told me of his godliness and spiritual maturity, and I'm having a hard time reconciling those things with what I see from 4545 on this blog. I know that some folks were left with a negative impression of Mr. Tucker from the Communication Meetings, but we all know how easy it is to say or do things we shouldn't when frustrated, so I can accept that he may have done that at some time. But that's far from the blatent contempt and disrespect continuously shown here by 4545.
4545,
I mean you no harm, and I do not claim to be any better than you or anyone else--I know the depth of my failings before the Lord. But you hold it in your power to dispel or settle this by stating plainly whether or not you are a deacon, and whether or not you are Steve Tucker. Maybe you enjoy making people wonder. But if you are not him, it just isn't right for you to allow people to think worse of him based on your words and actions (or even on their perceptions of them), when it is in your power to stop it. So, please, set the record straight. If you chose not to do so, please tell me why....
25+,
Thanks for your post. You've always been a steady and reasoned voice in the midst of all this. Grace to you my brother.
REPOST
whatasham said...
You Were Right
You won
You were right!
Right—by Robert’s Rules of Order.
What did you win?
A “moment” of satisfaction
For knowing you had won the vote—
The vote that would adjourn the “body of Christ”
And deny them the vote
To have quarterly business meetings
And to affirm the SBC’s Resolution
On sexual predators in the ministry.
What else did you win?
Another opportunity to hide the truth
On issues that could be embarrassing.
Well, what did you lose?
In my eyes and thousands of others
You lost respect
And a reputation of integrity
You lost the opportunity to bring peace
And unity through fairness and truth.
We lost!
But we were also right—
Right—by God’s Rule of Love.
What did we lose?
We lost the vote to adjourn
And cast the vote
That could allow quarterly business meetings
And to affirm the SBC’s Resolution
On sexual predators in the ministry.
What else did we lose?
We lost the opportunity to unveil the truth
On different concerns
So that we could fairly judge the issues and
Come to a right conclusion.
What did we win?
The knowledge that we had done it right
Not only by Robert’s Rules of Order
But by God’s Rule of Love—
Respectfully and courteously!
What else did we win?
Respect and a reputation of integrity
In the eyes of thousands of others.
In the words of another—
“I would rather temporarily lose
in a cause that will ultimately succeed
Than temporarily succeed with a cause
that will ultimately fail.”—Adrian Rogers
9:18 PM, March 26, 2007
Fair enough...4545, please deny you are Steve Tucker.
I have said I am not Steve Tucker. He is a great man of God though.
4545, are you related to Steve Tucker?
Socwork
Prov12:22
Tim
Piglet
Phil 4:13
allofgrace
and others
I didn't know that fellowship could occur in cyberspace until recently. Praying for you all and for Bellevue tonight.
25+
Junk,
Contact SOTL, I think she knows who 4545 is.
25+,
God bless you, my friend.
25+
In the words of another—
“I would rather temporarily lose
in a cause that will ultimately succeed
Than temporarily succeed with a cause
that will ultimately fail.”—Adrian Rogers
Thanks for a great post tonite, all of it.
NO
Sheepless... thanks.
Galations 1:10
nite all.
(offline)
Fair enough. Brother Tucker, I apologize. I was told long ago you were hisservant and then 4545. I am sorry for attributing the hateful comments of another to you.
To whomever posts as 4545, you are the pastor's worst enemy. In defending him your ugly attitude drives people away from your position. Please moderate your tone. You always get more flies with honey than vinegar.
4545,
Thanks for your response. I take you at your word on this, and I hope others will, too.
Sheepless,
Thanks for the info. I don't generally care who anyone here is; I just wanted a direct statement on this, due to what I admit is a personal bias -- not about ST, but about trusted, godly friends who do know him well.
Junk,
Someone in leadership told me hisservant/4545 was Steve Tucker. I did not make that up. Perhaps he was misinformed.
I sure do not want to wrongly blame any man.
proverbs 12:22,
I understand. I recall a "hisservant" from a while back, but nothing specific they posted, and I don't know if that's the same person as 4545. I don't blame folks for wanting to maintain some anonymity. Some have concerns some would have about potential impacts on them or family or loved ones. For others, it is mostly a matter of wanting whatever they write to be viewed primarily on its own merit and not on the basis of anyone's preconceived ideas about them. And I suppose some would be embarrassed by their behavior online and would rather folks thought better of them in person. :)
4545 said...
Wow, yet another rumor.
4545, If it were not true you would be correct. Sorry, this is more than a rumor. This time you don't know what you are talking about. Your search committee really should have done their homework.
Please ask your preacher to tell you the truth and then report back to the blog tomorrow.
Junk said
For others, it is mostly a matter of wanting whatever they write to be viewed primarily on its own merit and not on the basis of anyone's preconceived ideas about them
Piglet says:
That's been my biggest concern although many people do know who I am.
Brooklyn Bob,
Are you really from Brooklyn, NY?
Sheepless,
I think the answers to this should come from the pastor. Some things should never be disclosed online. I never considered putting anything about his Brooklyn apartment on the internet. Others started that earlier today. When 4545 called it a rumor, I decided he needed to be corrected. I am not going to let him bully those people who are simply trying to find some answers. They love their church and want the truth.
As for Steve, it looks like he waited too late to do the right thing. He could have quietly left the ministry and kept his reputation intact. I may wonder forever why he didn't do that. Now, I fear all will be out in the open.
Brooklyn Bob,
We do all love our church and we feel we have been deceived and our church has been hijacked.
Whatever the truth is, I hope it all comes out and very soon before our church family is totally destroyed.
Thank you for your response.
Only,
Don't let 4545 yank your chain. I suspect 4545 is going to have enough to do in the near future, maybe even have the honor of clearing out that shrine case.
Maybe the little lunch box will go, "bye...bye"
Sheepless,
We can never hide the truth from God and when we set out to sin and deceive, more often than we initially think, we can't hide the truth from man either. Also, no matter how smart we are, there is always someone around a little smarter.
Brooklyn Bob,
You're right there is always one smarter.
Sin has a way of seeping out of it's hiding place eventually. Hopefully the dam is about to be broken.
Who knows, maybe this hoax of a meeting yesterday is yet another vehicle for those blinded to the truth to more readily see it when it does come out.
I pray all of those searching for revelation and facts will not tire before God's mission is complete.
Please stay the course. God bless you.
Now, I'm off to count my sheep! Good nite.
You Were Right
You won
You were right!
Right—by Robert’s Rules of Order.
What did you win?
A “moment” of satisfaction
For knowing you had won the vote—
The vote that would adjourn the “body of Christ”
And deny them the vote
To have quarterly business meetings
And to affirm the SBC’s Resolution
On sexual predators in the ministry.
What else did you win?
Another opportunity to hide the truth
On issues that could be embarrassing.
Well, what did you lose?
In my eyes and thousands of others
You lost respect
And a reputation of integrity
You lost the opportunity to bring peace
And unity through fairness and truth.
We lost!
But we were also right—
Right—by God’s Rule of Love.
What did we lose?
We lost the vote to adjourn
And cast the vote
That could allow quarterly business meetings
And to affirm the SBC’s Resolution
On sexual predators in the ministry.
What else did we lose?
We lost the opportunity to unveil the truth
On different concerns
So that we could fairly judge the issues and
Come to a right conclusion.
What did we win?
The knowledge that we had done it right
Not only by Robert’s Rules of Order
But by God’s Rule of Love—
Respectfully and courteously!
What else did we win?
Respect and a reputation of integrity
In the eyes of thousands of others.
In the words of another—
“I would rather temporarily lose
in a cause that will ultimately succeed
Than temporarily succeed with a cause
that will ultimately fail.”—Adrian Rogers
You won the opportunity for closure.
To all,
Listen to Chuck Swindoll today.
Walk in purity before the Lord; Love Him and one another.
Pray for the Body and the lost.
4545 said...
Finance: You have the nerve to post about me making personal attacks?
Also, why are you not holding those on "your side" accountable for their hate speech? Why not?
It is in your face and made personal on purpose.
First, what is "my side"? I'm not on a side. Second, I have admonished the other bloggers about their language Third, I see you are from the "Two wrongs make a right", and commend you for your admission that you are making personal attacks, but I'd like to know how that is Christ-honoring, or Christ like behavior.
"What is your response to this?"
Bob,
You have mail.
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Having their conscience seared with a hot iron
- The allusion here is doubtless to the effect of applying a hot iron to the skin. The cauterized part becomes rigid and hard, and is dead to sensibility. So with the conscience of those referred to. It has the same relation to a conscience that is sensitive and quick in its decisions, that a cauterized part of the body has to a thin, delicate, and sensitive skin. Such a conscience exists in a mind that will practice delusion without concern; that will carry on a vast system of fraud without wincing; that will incarcerate, scourge, or burn the innocent without compassion; and that will practice gross enormities, and indulge in sensual gratifications under the mask of piety. While there are many eminent exceptions to an application of this to the Papal communion, yet this description will apply better to the Roman priesthood in the time of Luther - and in many other periods of the world - than to any other "body of men" that ever lived.
source
I posted this months ago. Now seems like a good time to bring it out again. It is long, but well worth the read.
All Christians must remember to conduct themselves, even amidst tremendous turmoil, in accordance with the mandates of Scripture. Sadly, over the last few days both sides of the Bellevue Baptist Church conflict have sunk to new lows. Ad hominem attacks and vitriol have become the norm. I understand the passion, but I am saddened by our seeming inability to maintain a high level of discourse.
More than 200 years ago, a minister who planned to write an article criticizing a fellow minister for his lack of orthodoxy, wrote to John Newton (of Amazing Grace fame) of his intention. Newton replied as follows:
"Dear Sir,
"As you are likely to be engaged in controversy, and your love of truth is joined with natural warmth of temper, my friendship makes me solicitous on your behalf. You are of the strongest side; for truth is great, and must prevail; so that a person of abilities inferior to yours might take the field with a confidence of victory. I am not therefore anxious for the event of the battle; but I would have you more than a conqueror, and to triumph, not only over your adversary, but also over yourself. If you cannot be vanquished, you may be wounded. To preserve you from such wounds as might give you cause of weeping over your conquests, I would present you with some considerations, which, if duly attended to, will do you the service of a great coat of mail; such armor, that you need not complain, as David did of Saul’s, that it will be more cumbersome than useful; for you will easily perceive it is taken from that great magazine provided for the Christian soldier, the word of God. I take it for granted that you will not expect any apology for my freedom, and therefore I shall not offer one. For methods sake, I may reduce my advice to three heads: respecting your opponent, the public, and yourself.
"As to your opponent, I wish that before you set pen to paper against him, and during the whole time you are preparing your answer, you may commend him by earnest prayer to the Lord’s teaching and blessing. This practice will have a direct tendency to conciliate your heart to love and pity him; and such a disposition will have a good influence upon every page you write. If you account him a believer, though greatly mistaken in the subject of debate between you, the words of David to Joab concerning Absalom, are very applicable: “Deal gentlywith him for my sake.”The Lord loves him and bears with him; therefore you must not despise him, or treat him harshly. The Lord bears with you likewise, and expects that you should show tenderness to others from a sense of the much forgiveness you need yourself. In a little while you will meet in heaven; he will then be dearer to you than the nearest friend you have upon earth is to you now. Anticipate that period in your thoughts, and though you may find it necessary to oppose his errors, view him personally as a kindred soul, with whom you are to be happy in Christ forever. But if you look upon him as an unconverted person, in a state of enmity against God and his grace (a supposition which, without good evidence, you should be very unwilling to admit), he is a more proper object of your compassion than of your anger. Alas! “He knows not what he does.”But you know who has made you to differ. If God, in his sovereign pleasure, had so appointed, you might have been as he is now; and he, instead of you, might have been set for the defense of the gospel. You were both equally blind by nature. If you attend to this, you will not reproach or hate him, because the Lord has been pleased to open your eyes, and not his. Of all people who engage in controversy, we, who are called Calvinists, are most expressly bound by our own principles to the exercise of gentleness and moderation. If, indeed, they who differ from us have a power of changing themselves, if they can open their own eyes, and soften their own hearts, then we might with less inconsistency be offended at their obstinacy: but if we believe the very contrary to this, our part is, not to strive, but in meekness to instruct those who oppose as taught in 2 Timothy 2:25, “If peradventure God will give them repentance to the acknowledgment of the truth.” If you write with a desire of being an instrument of correcting mistakes, you will of course be cautious of laying stumbling blocks in the way of the blind or of using any expressions that may exasperate their passions, confirm them in their principles, and thereby make their conviction, humanly speaking, more impracticable.
"By printing, you will appeal to the public; where your readers may be ranged under three divisions: First, such as differ from you in principle. Concerning these I may refer you to what I have already said. Though you have your eye upon one person chiefly, there are many like-minded with him; and the same reasoning will hold, whether as to one or to a million. There will be likewise many who pay too little regard to religion, to have any settled system of their own, and yet are pre-engaged in favor of those sentiments which are at least repugnant to the good opinion men naturally have of themselves. These are very incompetent judges of doctrine; but they can form a tolerable judgment of a writer’s spirit. They know that meekness, humility and love are the characteristics of a Christian temper; and though they affect to treat the doctrines of grace as mere notions and speculations, which, supposing they adopted them, would have no salutary influence upon their conduct; yet from us, who profess these principles, they always expect such dispositions as correspond with the precepts of the gospel. They are quick-sighted to discern when we deviate from such a spirit, and avail themselves of it to justify their contempt of our arguments. The Scriptural maxim, that “the wrath of man works not the righteousness of God,”is verified by daily observation. If our zeal is embittered by expressions of anger, invective, or scorn, we may think we are doing service of the cause of truth, when in reality we shall only bring it into discredit. The weapons of our warfare, and which alone are powerful to break down the strongholds of error, are not carnal, but spiritual; arguments fairly drawn from Scripture and experience, and enforced by such a mild address, as may persuade our readers, that, whether we can convince them or not, we wish well to their souls, and contend only for the truth’s sake; if we can satisfy them that we act upon these motives, our point is half gained; they will be more disposed to consider calmly what we offer; and if they should still dissent from our opinions, they will be constrained to approve our intentions. You will have a third class of readers, who being of your own sentiments, will readily approve of what you advance, and may be further established and confirmed in their views of the Scripture doctrines, by a clear and masterly elucidation of your subject. You may be instrumental to their edification if the law of kindness as well as of truth regulates your pen, otherwise you may do them harm. There is a principle of self, which disposes us to despise those who differ from us; and we are often under its influence, when we think we are only showing a becoming zeal in the cause of God. I readily believe that the leading points of Arminianism spring from and are nourished by the pride of the human heart; but I should be glad if the reverse were always true; and that to embrace what are called the Calvinistic doctrines was an infallible token of a humble mind. I think I have known some Arminians, that is, persons who for want of a clearer light, have been afraid of receiving the doctrines of free grace, who yet have given evidence that their hearts were in a degree humbled before the Lord. And I am afraid there are Calvinists, who, while they account it a proof of their humility, that they are willing in words to debase the creature and to give all the glory of salvation to the Lord, yet know not what manner of spirit they are of. Whatever it be that makes us trust in ourselves that we are comparatively wise or good, so as to treat those with contempt who do not subscribe to our doctrines, or follow our party, is a proof and fruit of a self- righteous spirit. Self-righteousness can feed upon doctrines as well as upon works; and a man may have the heart of a Pharisee, while his head is stored with orthodox notions of the unworthiness of the creature, and the riches of free grace. Yea, I would add, the best of men are not wholly free from this leaven; and therefore are too apt to be pleased with such representations as hold up our adversaries to ridicule, and by consequence flatter our own superior judgments. Controversies, for the most part, are so managed as to indulge rather than to repress his wrong disposition; and therefore, generally speaking, they are productive of little good. They provoke those whom they should convince, and puff up those whom they should edify. I hope your performance will savor of a spirit of true humility, and be a means of promoting it in others.
"This leads me, in the last place, to consider your own concern in your present undertaking. It seems a laudable service to defend the faith once delivered to the saints; we are commanded to contend earnestly for it, and to convince gainsayers. If ever such defenses were seasonable and expedient they appear to be so in our own day, when errors abound on all sides and every truth of the gospel is either directly denied or grossly misrepresented. And yet we find but very few writers of controversy who have not been manifestly hurt by it. Either they grow in a sense of their own importance, or imbibe an angry, contentious spirit, or they insensibly withdraw their attention from those things that are the food and immediate support of the life of faith, and spend their time and strength upon matters that are at most but of a secondary value. This shows, that if the service is honorable, it is dangerous. What will it profit a man if he gains his cause and silences his adversary, if at the same time he loses that humble, tender frame of spirit in which the Lord delights, and to which the promise of his presence is made? Your aim, I doubt not, is good; but you have need to watch and pray for you will find Satan at your right hand to resist you; he will try to debase your views; and though you set out in defense of the cause of God, if you are not continually looking to the Lord to keep you, it may become your own cause, and awaken in you those tempers that are inconsistent with true peace of mind, and will surely obstruct communion with God.
"Be upon your guard against admitting anything personal into the debate. If you think you have been ill treated, you will have an opportunity of showing that you are a disciple of Jesus, who “when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not.”This is our pattern, thus we are to speak and write for God, and “not rendering railing for railing, but contrariwise blessing; knowing that hereunto we are called.”The wisdom that is from above is not only pure, but also peaceable and gentle; and the want of these qualifications, like the dead fly in the pot of ointment, will spoil the savor and efficacy of our labors. If we act in a wrong spirit, we shall bring little glory to God, do little good to our fellow creatures, and procure neither honor nor comfort to ourselves. If you can be content with showing your wit, and gaining the laugh on your side, you have an easy task; but I hope you have a far nobler aim, and that, sensible of the solemn importance of gospel truths, and the compassion due to the souls of men, you would rather be a means of removing prejudices in a single instance, than obtain the empty applause of thousands. Go forth, therefore, in the name and strength of the Lord of hosts, speaking the truth in love; and may he give you a witness in many hearts that you are taught of God, and favored with the unction of his Holy Spirit."
Bellevue, this crisis is not going away anytime soon. Deal gently with them for His sake.
To James Sundquist:
Sir,
I usually pass over your comments because I feel that they are generally inflammatory and narrow minded, but as I was reviewing the comments from yesterday I find your equation of DR. Gaines with Hannaniah beyond the pale. You need to consider not posting here again as your comments ADD nothing to the discussion of a positive nature.
It is not Christlike to ask God to kill someone just because you disagree with them. Even if you think that they are failing in their responsibilities regarding leadership, you pray desperately that God will change them and approach them in love to challenge them to do right. See Galations 3 for Paul's dealings with Peter's heresy for a scriptural basis.
You, sir, owe the posters on this blog, Dr Gaines and the people of Bellevue an appology.
I have a question about Hannaniah: Is he Shadrach - from the firey furnace. I did a little commentary research online and couldn't figure out if they were the same person or not.
Thanks!
Karen
Karen,
Go to the Strong's Concordance. I have looked it up in our Strong's here at home and there are 14 different entries for "Hannaniah" in The Strong's Concordance. Shadreck is indeed one of them.
Hope this helps you. Have a blessed day.
Karen,
Shadrach was renamed Shadrach- his original name was Hananiah. Does that help? Try biblegateway.com
aslansown,
Just stopped by to see what you had written. Well said and amen.
Hananiah (Shadrach) was one of the Jews taken into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar in 605 B.C. He was one of the few who remained faithful to the Lord in Babylonian captivity, was not polluted by the pagan culture, and therefore earned himself a distinguished place in history along with Daniel, Mishael, and Azariah.
If you'll recall, the writings of Jeremiah were read by Daniel in chapter 9. So, the prophet Jeremiah lived prior to Daniel's captivity.
The false prophet Hananiah lived during the time of Jeremiah, and claimed to speak for God. This was an offense punishable by death, according to Deuteronomy 18:10.
They were not the same person.
Please sign this petition if you agree that these men should step down from their positions of leadership. May God bless Bellevue once again.
Sign if you think they should go
We can begin to heal if they all go. Don't let a small group of men drive the entire church into a ditch. They need to step aside so trust can be restored.
Sign if you think they should go
The petition has been reset to allow for comments.
Thanks! Okay, here's my point: Is Shadrach (in the book of Daniel) the same guy (Hananiah) that was a false prophet in the book of Jeremiah?
If so, can I draw a conclusion that even though he was selected by God to come through the fire unharmed, God chose later to kill him when he turned "bad" - or was a false prophet?
If so, my point all along has been if God can be pleased with Steve Gaines at one point in his life (i.e., being the "chosen one" for BBC), can't God take that favor away if Steve messes it up?
Just a thought - Please don't think I'm saying God should kill Steve Gaines!
karen
I Timothy 4:2 Barnes Notes
"The matter of fact seems to be, that when young men who have been trained in the Catholic Church, first turn their attention to the ministry, they are sincere. When they pass through their course of study, however, and become acquainted with the arts and devices on which the fabric rests, and with the scandalous lives of many of the clergy, they are shocked to find how corrupt and false the whole system is. But they are now committed. They have devoted their lives to this profession. They are trained now to this system of imposture, and they must continue to practice and perpetuate the fraud, or abandon the church, and subject themselves to all the civil and ecclesiastical disabilities which would now follow if they were to leave and reveal all its frauds and impostures. A gentleman of high authority, and who has had as good an opportunity as any man living to make accurate and extensive observations, stated to me, that this was a common thing in regard to the Catholic clergy in France and Italy. No one can reasonably doubt that the great body of that clergy "must" be apprized that much that is relied on for the support of the system is mere legend, and that the miracles which are pretended to be performed are mere trick and imposture."
(The ministers of Bellevue under the legacy of Rogers) have not yet been made acquainted with the "mysteries of iniquity" in the communion in which they have been trained, and they do not suspect the deceptions that are practiced there.
Semi-pelagianism does not aquaint one with the "mysteries of iniquity" and leaves the spirit of self determination to do his work of corruption.
Karen,
They are not the same
"Hannaniah". Shadrack was never a false prophet as was the one in Jeremiah chapter 28.
solomon,
We were writing at the same time so I posted after you said they were not the same person. Thanks!
That aside - God has proven over and over in the Bible that He will take away favor (grace) if you mess up what He's given you. He was sorry He made Saul a king, he punished David for adultery, etc.
I'm just wondering if I have a valid point about maybe Steve was the person for BBC at the time he came; and now maybe he's not, due to recent "mistakes of the head" and downright sin.
karen
Well Karen got her Bible lesson for the day!
Thanks!
I have another question for your smart people:
What's the difference between being "ordained" and "licensed" to the Gospel Ministy. If you look at Steve Gaines bio on bellevue.org it says he was ordained in 1980, but licensed in 1977. I'm just wondering what that means.
karen
Karen
Since we are posting theories, what if God is not sorry for any of his decisions. And he sent Steve Gaines for a purpose.
Just a thought.
watchinghistory,
Oh I've thought about that as well - sort of "be careful what you ask for; you might get it" if you will.
I'll admit again that I didn't do much praying for the Search Committee so in my case "be carefule what you don't ask for..."
Amen?
karen
Watching: I gave up long ago trying to figure out God! I just figured He is smarter than I so I left it at that. It is sometimes hard to see this much hurt and not wonder why bad things happen to good people. I think the thing that sets this situation apart for me is the failure of many in leadership to follow scripture. At that point I have wonder about the purpose.
Karen,
Usually licensing follows ordination. The church ordains someone to the ministry by setting them aside to do this work and uaually in an open service after the candidate has convinced an ordination board that they are worthy of being set aprt to the work of The Gospel.
Licensing is carried out by the state and is a recognition that the person has been set apart by thier religious group or denomination.
aslansown,
Thanks for the info - Like I said, I was just wondering.
karen
I have an idea.
Why don't we, " the truthseekers" rent a place and have our own church?
Just moving to another building is no good. Those people in those pews have not lived thru what we have lived thru. Given the same circumstances, how do we know that they wouldn't respond the same way?
Why can't we rent a space, even if it's a shopping center, the main thing is that we would be worshipping Jesus, with each other!!
Truthseekers Baptist!!!
What say ye?
Pelagianism was condemned as a heresy by the church through the work of St. Augustine and his disciples. Later the heresy appeared in another form and became known as semi-pelagianism. The heresy is with us today as the operative theology of many Christians who believe that somehow through their prayer and good works they can make themselves worthy of God's love. It is a kind of pharisaism.
Steve Gaines' message Sunday implied that the sinner must acknowledge that God loves him and in some way that would make him worthy. Sounds like semi-pelagianism to me.
Did Dr Rogers know he preached this stuff?
Karen wrote in part "He punished David for adultery, etc."
We find that Paul wrote that David was a man after God's own heart. David ended his life in honor and in riches according to Scripture. We know the beginning of David's rise but Karen brings up the adultery and we need to add murder of the husband which he committed adultery. David was punished but he was restored and honored. I guess my question is why do we accept the failures of David as being forgiven but don't allow that same forgiveness for our church leaders? Say what you want about sin being equal (and I have myself) but to the people in that day to forgive for David's sins had to be difficult. Maybe they better understood that if God had forgiven who were they to not forgive.
One possible explanation is that David publicly repented of his sin, whereas some noted BBC leaders have not. (I'm not sure who you are referring to, but thought I'd throw this idea out anyway).
Truth rules,
Please know I was just giving two examples of God taking away his favor - not that He didn't give it back once they got back in line. Yes, David was a man after God's own heart, but he did get away from God's favor (grace) and paid dearly for it. But by the grace of God, God restored him. But there was punishment for wrongdoing before there was restoration.
I think that's where my difficulty with leadership lies - I've forgiven them for everything (life's too short and it would make me bitter to harbor unforgiveness) that's happened, but there has to be some sort of consequence or leadership will continue to run roughshod over the sheep without fear of retribution.
I think the difference in offering forgiveness comes from David falling on his face, begging God for forgiveness. All I've heard from the pulpit is "IF I've offended, then forgive me" which is so not an apology and repentence. It's just not. If you think it is, try apologizing to your wife or momma that way and see how far you get.
karen
socwork,
Nice to know we're surfing the same brain wave today! :)
karen
Yep! :)
SOTL,
I like the idea - that's how Faith Baptist was started.
karen
Karen and SOTL: That's how Covenant Baptist was started too.
I'm in.
I need to clarify what I said earlier when I said:
" given the same circumstances, how do we know they would not respond the same way"
What I MEANT by that was that how do we know that they would not respond the same way that so many of the folks responded at BBC yesterday? How do we know that they would not be like THEM?
Hope that clears that up.
Karen, thanks for the response. We can agree that our pastor has failed in the area of asking humbly for forgivess from the congregation but I don't know his heart in relationship with the Lord's forgiveness. But I do think he has suffered consequences that will impact his life for many years. He will be know as the man who followed Dr. Rogers but unable to lead as Dr. Rogers had led. I know that for me, that would be a humbling experience to know that I've failed to honor what God had built using the leadership of Dr. Rogers. Without a doubt he and Donna have to accept their parts in the ills at Bellevue. But the mark of a leader is not how he handles success but how he handles failure. I pray that God will reveal to him the actions he must take to become like David.
TruthRules,
You are assuming that he is not a sociopath.
I'm not convinced he's not, in which case, none of what you say would be relevant about him.
Sociopaths do not care about consequences. They only care about their own needs and desires.
Just My Opinion.
Truth rules,
I hope you're right, but that's where you and I differ. I don't want to stick around and "wait and see". I cannot worship the way I want to and need to and I cannot sit under his leadership knowing what I know about him. I really hope you and your family won't be injured or disappointed by any more of Steve's "mistakes". No, I cannot predict the future and cannot say for sure that he will continue to make "mistakes", but past actions do seem to indicate future results (can you tell I used to work for financial planners?) :)
Maybe I feel the way I do based on my past abuse wrought by my exhusband - Unfortunately it's in my personality makeup now to not want to hang out and get abused some more. I just don't have that "hang in there; it's bound to get better" gene anymore.
Can I throw a wrinkle in this conversation? I've discussed this with a few people and have gotten interesting responses so I want to throw it out there. What if the medications Steve Gaines takes for his MG make him unable to pastor the way he might pastor if he wasn't on medication? One of the medication for MG are steroids and I know they can screw up your brain chemistry (I have no personal knowledge of the medications Steve Gaines may or may not take - I'm just making conversation).
karen
I have an email into MALCO to ask them about the cost for renting either the cordova theatre or the Stage theatre.
I'll let ya'll know what I find out.
Karen,
RE: the meds
Was he on the same meds at his previous churches?
It is said that he did the SAME thing to those churches that he has done to ours.
If he was not on the same meds at those times, we are back to the fact that this is his basic personality.
ALL I needed to know about SG is that he felt compassion for PW.
That told me all I needed to know.
Rusty Leonard said, “We would expect that most Christian Ministries, the leadership, should have some degree of sacrifice. You want to see that Jesus lived a life of sacrifice.”
Personally and speaking only for myself, I look for this characteristic, the quality of sacrifice, among the ministry today and sadly I don’t find it. The quality I look for first and foremost in a pastor is Christ likeness. I see Christ likeness and sacrifice to be one and the same. I find a humble spirit in one who gives of himself freely…a self-sacrifice without question and not because he sees it as being expected of him.
I had never heard of Rusty Leonard before last weekend, but he has made
an indelible impression upon my heart; one I feel I must share with all of you. So, just in case you missed the last airing of 20/20 I have it for you right here.
Before anyone might ask me how this is relevant to this thread; that I might be ‘off-topic’, suffice it to say that transparency would be the key factor, the common denominator. One area that I remain consistent in with my prayer life is asking for truth to be revealed to us. I believe that God is revealing truth to us in these end times in alarming, proportionate ways…evil is rampant, transparency has turned to opaqueness, lightness to darkness.
You Tube link to 20/2020/20youtube
Website to Ministry Watchministrywatch
This is the website stewareshippartnetsstewardshippartners
As an added benefit to having watched this last weekend, I have been introduced to Ministry Watch. Though I haven’t had the time to go into every avenue open to me/us through this ministry, I certainly plan to. Having explored parts of it, I feel safe in adding it to my post.
I would appreciate your views.
Ima
karen,
I think the "steriods" factor is an interesting element to consider, especially in light of personality changes. However, I have a hard time attributing poor judgement in decisions to medication side effects (just to give one example: keeping quiet about the pedophile on staff for six months).
Medications/steriods can certainly contribute to personality changes, but they do not, in my opinion, account for inappropriate decisions. I'm not a doctor though, so I may be waaay off on that opinion.
If (IF) steroid use did account for a series of decisions that are evidence of poor judgment, then it might be wise for SG to be either in a different career or to have a safety net in place for his decision making.
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