Extended prayer meeting tonight at 6:30 at church. Streaming video should be available here. Audio is available here and here.
FOX Channel 13 is supposed to broadcast interviews with David Matlock and Josh Manning at 5:00 p.m. today. They said to stay tuned for more coverage at 5:30, and they may rerun the story at 9:00 p.m. More information is available here.
Channel 5 is scheduled to broadcast interviews with Mrs. Rogers and David Brown at 6:00 p.m. They may rerun the story at 10:00 p.m. More information is available here.
Be sure to tune in!
Channel 3's coverage is here.
The Commercial Appeal's coverage is here, here, and here.
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479 comments:
1 – 200 of 479 Newer› Newest»Josh,
I just saw your interview on Fox via the internet. Despite what you think the Pastor has done, I believe tonight you went too far in describing him as a "lawbreaker" and listing other things you believe he has done but yet there is no proof. Intimidating staff and members? Some things you say are true, but your attitude about this shows nothing of Christian love and unity. Is it possible your anger and hatred toward Gaines is causing YOU to sin by trying to destroy a man? I think it is time for you to step down, let God handle things (a novel idea for you, I pressume) and give the church time to heal. I feel sick to my stomach after watching you tonight. In 20 years you will not look back on this as a proud moment for yourself like you think you will.
It is absolutely heart breaking to me that Mrs. Rogers should have had to speak for the integrity of her husband. So many of us were beyond doubt of his integrity and the manner in which he would have handled a situtation of this magnitude.
Mrs. Rogers, I am so extremely sorry that this deteriated to this point. I would pray that this not have been as painful as what I can only imagine it must have been. We love you and some of us will never forget what we have been taught and the man of God that taught us. Once again, I shed tears from heart for this.
watchingfromafar not so far....
It is sad that you have chosen to attack a man of God rather than attack the problem Bellevue is facing. You say about Josh, "your attitude towaards this shows"....... You judge and find fault with what you perceive to be an "attitude" with Josh rather than being alarmed and greived over the prideful attitude of sg and all he has done to bring this upon himself, and Bellevue.
Look at what problems sg has brought to our chruch in little over a year!
You also attack Josh by stating that his "anger and hatred towards sg is causing you (Josh) to sin by trying to destroy a man".
You cannot judge Josh's motives.
If sg is destroyed by a chorus of believers seeking out truth, then sg has destroyed himself.
Why are you not greiving over what damage this man has done to the chruch in such a short time rather than finding fault with the truth seekers?
What about the command that we are to stay away even from the appearance of evil? How is it you feel so sorry and offended not by a pedifile on staff and the "mistake" of keeping him on and the possiblility of others being harmed by him? What about the reputation of Bellevue being dragged into the mud because it was not dealt with properly six months ago?
How much more damage will you stand by and watch done to this chruch before you open your eyes and say it's time for the truth and some housecleaning?
WFA,
Brother, three points:
1) As Paul said, it is a small thing that you judge me. And if you judge, judge rightly, which leads me to
2) My statement that he broke the law is true and he has admitted it. He trespassed on private property, past no trespassing signs, and over a fence. I've no hate toward Dr Gaines, though your description of my "hate" reminds me of the classic liberal strategy of not taking issues but instead using emotionally charged words that are useful but inaccurate. How have I tried to destroy Dr Gaines? I said only what Dr Gaines and other ministers at Bellevue have said. How is telling the truth an attempt to destroy? Further, if the truth destroys, does that mean we should not declare it or that that which is destroys is worthy of preservation? I think not. Jesus said he came to bring a sword. He also said he would divide families. Truth does that. And yes, it does destroy. But destruction is ancillary and necessary only to the extent that anything is false.
3) As for twenty years from now, I won't be proud. I don't have anything to be proud about tonight. If I've done right, to God be the glory. If wrong, to me be the shame. One way or the other, I'm not taking any credit here.
Finally, I'll try this again, but it never seems to catch on: Words mean things.
Josh
All,
I should also clarify one thing. Brooke Sanders misquoted me during her wrap up at 6pm on WMC. I did not say that PW counseled molestation victims. I said that he was in charge of dealing with childrens ministry applicants who marked on their applications that they had been molested. Just for clarity's sake.
Josh
Thanks for the kind comments friends. Praise God for any good that came out.
Well that stream was cut off.
custos said,
Finally, I'll try this again, but it never seems to catch on: Words mean things.
Josh
Question: How many children do you have, Josh?
All due respect, sww, my question was addressed to Josh, not to you.
Hello All,
I just got back from prayer meeting. I was very humbled at the apology of one that had been harboring bitterness against me since I am not anonymous on this blog. I told this persoan and I'm telling all of you - watch and be very aware of your attitude on this blog. You may sit next to them in church on Sunday - no matter what happens to the leadership of our church - whether Steve Gaines stays or not - WE STILL ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST AND WE STILL HAVE TO GET ALONG! PLEASE check your motivation for posting here - I had to check my heart and make sure that I am in God's will. I believe I am, but I'll quit if He tells me to. I love the people I've met through this blog and I pray for the people that read it. I pray my words are pure and what I type is truth. If I have offended anyone, please forgive me. Better yet, email me and let me know. We can reconcile quickly.
Love to you all,
Karen
maybejustmaybe,
You are obviously not a member? If you think that you are going to interfere here, you are sadly mistaken. Make all the snide comments you want, you are nothing more than the devil's advocate at this point.
Mom4, I wasn't engaging you, either. But guess what? Wrong again! Just about every assessment you have ever made of me is false. I AM a member of Bellevue, and I am not here to start a petty argument. If you choose to be judgmental and not be civil whenever I post, that's up to you -- but to label anyone who opposes your viewpoint as "devils's advocates" and "liberals" just damages what little credibility you have.
My question is for Josh? How many children do you have? And how many women do you have?
JOSH
I just want to thank you for speaking up for my children and all of the Mothers and Fathers who could not be there to speak up for ourselves!
You did a wonderful job telling the world what needs to be told.
I loved what Steve Gaines said about us tonight.
He encouraged us to stand in the face of the enemy and we will Steve, we will!
Josh,
I know you are not going to let your critics bother you - afterall, watchingfromafar would say that Jesus was not showing christian love when he rebuked the pharisees and called them whited sepulchers!
You did well today. Thanks for speaking for those of us who are not so sharp as you! I told my husband I want to adopt you. :)
It was just announced that steve gaines would be interviewed on channel three tonight.
Josh..I'm so proud of you
First SG changed our music, then they started charging for donuts to pay his salary. In the end we will get our Man. Steve Spradlin will soon take over.
Josh,
Your hatred is consuming you. Don't let Satan trick you into calling it righteous anger. Turn away from it before it's too late.
I'm praying for you.
To MJM: Let me jump in here if you don't mind for Josh. I have three children and 7 grandchildren. Now where are you headed?
Like I said on WMCTV, we must protect our children REGARDLESS of friendships, promises, gut feelings and oh yes assets. This matter should have been reported in June. And the minister involved in this should have been removed immediately and not allow access to the Bellevue campus up to as recently as last Friday.
You do not allow children to be in harms way, I am sorry but those are the facts.
One last point, I have spoken out many times against the Catholic Church and yet in all those times I have never been called some of the names I have been called by some of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. And this is coming from my own denomination and my own church. That is a sad commentary for some us that profess to have a personal relationship with Christ. Be reassured I have already forgiven you. But don't worry this old man is not going anywhere. Until my Lord deems my work accomplished, I will continue to speak out against this horror of child abuse. As I have said I do not want to see or hear of one more child abused again. And the only way we will see that is when our religious leaders deal wtih this forthrightly and honestly with total transparency by putting our children first over any thing else.
Humbly and in HIS hands, David Brown
blessmewiththetruth,
I hope you get blessed with the truth soon.
Mrs Rogers,
I am grieving over your burden in what must be a very dark time for you. I am sorry that you have even had to think of coming to defend the honor of a man who is deemed most honorable among men. I loved Dr Rogers, saw my sons and my husband saved under his ministry, we grew and grew and worshiped and loved and fellowshiped at Bellevue. Not until Dr Rogers retired did we ever see discontent amongst the flock. I am praying for you and your family, that the Lord will heal this terrible pain you have endured to defend your husband's honor.
I want to apologize to you if anything I have said on this blog has brought you any pain or caused your husband to be accused of knowing of these vile acts. We that knew him, have no doubt that he did not know and are disgusted that someone would even question or assume that he did, let alone lay blame at his feet.
You and your children are very blessed to have been a part of his life and we want you to know that we feel that we are blessed to have you and your family a part of ours.
We love you and thank you.
Oh one other point. Josh and I both sat in AMEN CORNER! That was Dr. Rogers' title for our area of the sanctuary. He would often stop by and visit just before a service to be sure we were awake and ready to say AMEN. He told us often that it encouraged him. Just another tidbit of our beloved Dr. Rogers.
maybejustmaybesaid...
"My question is for Josh? How many children do you have? And how many women do you have?"
Will you listen to yourself?
David...those were the good old days.
SWW When you cannot discuss the facts, then you resort to an attack on the person and that's what those with the sg-coloured glasses have been doing.
Well I heard about all the standing o's....so what's on tap for Sunday?...the wave?
Are the seats in the sanctuary springloaded?
AOG,
There will probably be a vote of confidence on Sunday - buyer beware.
I kept standing up to protest SG and everyone thought it was for a standing ovation. If we only had a larger group of opposition.
stillwatching,
After a while God gives people over to their sin, and they don't notice them anymore. In themselves or others.
May God forgive you through the blood.
rod,
I don't quite follow you. Could you explain about the glasses?
overflowinggrace,
Do you realize how ironic your name is?
piglet,
Didn't Dr. Rogers support the Disney boycott?
What Rod means is that anyone on Team Gaines is just wrong and out of God's will.
What Rod means is that anyone on Team Gaines is just wrong and out of God's will.
I do think that's what he means, but I would like to hear it from him.
If we get what we want and SG resigned tomorrow, how many people would leave Bellevue. Hopefully they will see how wrong and sinful they have been.
Trolls????
No that's not quite what I mean Owg. What I mean is that they look at the facts in a jaded light; they see what is happening through their paradigm rather than taking the facts for what they are. They are too emotional and think with feelings and not the mind.
pinker,
My point was that 'piglet' is using a name from a disney production, which was a company Dr. Rogers spoke out against.
Is the only exercise you ever get jumping to conclusions?!?
rod,
Are we the only ones?
Karen,
WE STILL ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST AND WE STILL HAVE TO GET ALONG!
You speak the truth sister. Please keep in mind as you post here (everyone) that one day, this will behind us one way or another, and once again we will have to worship together. Like it or not, we are, "One in the bond of love". Although, it does seem a little disingenuos to sing "sweet sweet spirit" right now.
fathinhope...
just a little blog curtesy...could you combine some of your responsive comments and questions into one comment post?
These threads are getting long enough as it is.
maybejustmaybe
And how many women do you have?
Did you mean to direct this to Bruce Brooke? I'm not sure he's posting on here.
pinker,
I apologize for my last post. This is very frustrating to me.
You shouldn't assume that anyone who mentions Dr. Rogers does so in a negative way, though.
financeguy,
Could you educate me? Some of the posts are so long that I don't think anyone reads them.
faith,
Your 9:08 through 9:12 comments could have been all in one comment. Just make sure you separate each question. You keep posting like you are, people are likely to just skip them.
fg,
Thanks. I did kind of fire them off, didn't I? My apologies to all, but this is very stressful.
:-)
Faith,
What did you mean by saying my name was ironic?
to all...
I didn't see a lot of discussion about the service tonight, but does anyone else feel the way I do about all this talk about "Policies and Procedures?"
It's like the 6 month inaction is being explained away as "I'm not responsible, the problem is we didn't have procedures in place for this sort of thing".
Why does a Senior Pastor with 20+ years of experience of large churches need a policy and a procedure to know what to do when he finds out a staff member is an admitted pedophile?
He needs to stand up and take responsibility for his actions, and quit trying to blame previous administrations.
finance guy,
give him his due...he's a master politician...he knows how to deflect any personal responsibility...his circle of power had better wise up...he won't hesitate to throw them to the wolves to save his own neck.s
Could someone who was there post a brief about what was said. They cut off the stream right after Jamie sang "Sweet, Sweet Spirit"
I guess singing it makes it true.
mom4,
Well then I can't wait to sit on my hands come Sunday.
We attended the service tonight. Sat in the middle behind the camera's. Before the service began I watched as Mark D walked in. He got hugs from several people and then one man hugged him and gave him a thumbs up. I thought to myself "oh yes things are going just right give him a thumbs up over it". Shortly after that a steady stream of members approached the Gaines family hugging them and offering support. I would say probably 35-50% of the people in the congregation went down to do this. Then we sang a short song and prayed for a moment and when I opened my eyes SG was at the pulpit. He read a prepared statement that he said had been prepared for him or reviewed by "outside counsel" which is why he was reading from papers. He said that it was a tough last few days. Then he asked Donna to come up to his side. He teared up and mentioned that Dr Spradlin had called for his resignation. He made it clear he was close and harbored no ill thoughts or will towards Dr Spradlin. Then he said something that I think was very telling to me. He said "He asked me to resign. (teared near to crying) I'd like to Stay." No sooner did he say the word Stay than the clear majority of the congregation stood and gave him applause. It was so telling to me because he didn't say I prayed on it and the Lord has lead me to stay or God hasn't shown me it was time to leave. He said "I'd like to stay" as if he has a choice in the matter? It's obvious to me that he thinks he's in control of whether he stays or not. He then went on to say something about the Williams family and how everybody should just "love on them" and pray for them. Not a single word about how horrible a thing had been done no mention of praying specifically for the child mixed up in all of this. Just "love on them". After this I know several of the people that must post on the blog got up and left because many left at this point. Then David Coombs got up and went through the "investigation that will determine PW's standing". I can not for the life of me understand what there is to investigate. He admitted what he did you first terminate him from the ministry then provide he and his family the support they need to start healing. David said this will take 30 days because of the holidays! Then Dr Joe got up and lead us in an extended time of prayer which I really appreciated and needed. I didn't appreaciate what a love fest it turned out to be for SG himself. There was far to much pray for our pastor vs pray for our church. There was some of that as well it just leaned to much towards SG and what a rough time we're all having. And at the end of the service it was the culmination of the love fest asking everybody to come down and surround SG with prayer. My wife and I left shortly after this started. We discussed this all through dinner. I still hold firm to my belief that SG was brought to BBC to serve during this time of cleansing. He is to end up broken. It seems like the Lords will. Then we discussed how the Lord works in wonderous ways. How many Godly mean and women has SG run out of BBC? Many is the answer. Why would the Lord allow that to happen? Possibly to save his Godly children from the shame and embarassment to come at the hands of SG? One could definitely look at it that way. I do. I feel in my heart that the cleansing isn't over. I don't know how much worse things could get I pray they don't get worse. I pray that SG will fall on his sword and take the responsiblity for his failures. There is no way possible that a discerning christian can sit under his leadership. No way. His ministry and motives are tainted. As some have asked there has to be more to this story. There is no way that someone of SG's purported spiritual stature would allow PW to remain for 6 months much less 6 minutes. I feel there is darkness yet to be found.
ofg,
My favorite preacher of all time, Adrian Rogers, said that grace was getting something we don't deserve.
I read your post which said I kept standing up to protest SG and everyone thought it was for a standing ovation. If we only had a larger group of opposition. and assumed you were one of those opposed to Dr. Gaines regardless of the truth.
Perhaps I was mistaken (in light of other posts), and my apologies if I was. But even if you are an opponent of Dr. Gaines, shouldn't "overflowing grace" flow to him as well?
Faith,
He is a pastor and is held to a higher standard.
JU...
I bet your right. SG probably hasn't prayed about any of this. He is just doing what self wants to do.
faithnhope,
The most gracious thing we do sometimes is to hold each other accountable. To sit idle while a brother or sister destroys their own lives and the lives of others around them in the name of grace is the most ungracious thing we could do...think on that.s
ju,
Thanks for the post. I came in late and missed the first part. I too appreciated Joe Jernigan, but marveled that there was no mention of the pain of the victims.
What a day we have come to where our pastor has to address the congregation with statements prepared by legal counsel.
(FG, who's still shell shocked by the whole mess)
ofg,
So God's grace doesn't apply to him?
FinanceGuy said...
"It's like the 6 month inaction is being explained away as "I'm not responsible, the problem is we didn't have procedures in place for this sort of thing".
Who needs a procedure to handle this man who raped his son, I don't care how long ago it was."Hey Steve here is a procedure for you,"fire the pervert"
overflowinggrace said...
JU...
I bet your right. SG probably hasn't prayed about any of this. He is just doing what self wants to do.
Anyone else remember Harry Smith admitting that the Finance Committee didn't pray about making the $25K contribution to FUMC? Makes you wonder what they do pray for when no one's watching?
The most gracious thing we do sometimes is to hold each other accountable. To sit idle while a brother or sister destroys their own lives and the lives of others around them in the name of grace is the most ungracious thing we could do...think on that.
Oh, I have thought on that. Boy, have I thought on that!!! Who's destroying whose life, though?
ju
Thanks for the brief. I believe that God is shaking up churches and true believers across the country. This time is so hard but I can look forward to what God has planned. Even if the end is only an end to this trial.
Tie up your laces fellow believers - we've got miles yet to go.
Faith,
Grace should apply to him, but not here. We are in a better position than you to judge pastors and question their prayer life.
OFG
I have been lurking here for some weeks now but have not posted because I am not a member at Bellevue. I have to tell you though...the mean spirited comments about Dr. Gaines (ie., the comment questioning whether he has a couple of women on the side) do nothing for your credibility. This is a heartbreaking situation on so many levels and I feel for all involved (except the perpetrator). I know many of the comments are borne of frustration but when you look like circling vultures it does nothing for your cause or for the cause of Christ. May God be will all of you as you process these events and may God get the glory in whatever the outcome may be. Many prayers for all of you.
I am sad and shocked. I cannot believe a pastor that failed for six months to remove a pedophile from the paid staff at Bellevue got a standing ovation.
Finance Guy - well said at 9:36 PM, December 20, 2006
Ju, I agree with your all of your words from 9:46 PM, December 20, 2006. Especially "There is no way that someone of SG's purported spiritual stature would allow PW to remain for 6 months much less 6 minutes."
What has gripped Bellevue and robbed it's members of their common sense?
Thanks JU. Here is a thought about why sg kept PW on. It was to protect himself. You see, sg had already been underfire for letting so many godly men go and unjustly so. There was one man who resigned against sg will because the timing was not right for sg. However, this man resigned anyway because sg had made his job too miserable to stay at any long. Yet,he stood in fornt of the congregation and "prosted too much" said he was leaving on his own accord and made it a point to state over and over again that sg did not aske him to leave. Later I found out that sg had been making his job miserable; so much so that he could not wait any long and just had to leave. Steve used him. So, my GUESS and it is only a guess, is that PW would have been another Bellevue minister to have left and it would have been done without explanation and it would have been fodder for the gossip mills.
To Financeguy:
They pray for the saving of their own hides. No pun intended.
Dee
Gaines admitted that waiting 6 months was a mistake. It's time to drop that issue. What more are you waiting for...a resignation? Ain't gonna come.
May God bless Steve Gaines. It's great to know we have a leader who is really strong in these days of attacks from Satan.
david
what was the date the gift was given to FUMC?
I just don't know. Maybe someone else does. I think we only became aware of it in the mid November timeframe.
The only thing that my wife and I can come up with is that much of Bellevue's congregation don't have the ability to discern sin and/or understand what should happen following it's discovery? Possibly our pop culture has so desensitzed people that raping and sodomizing your own son is reduced to a mere "Moral Failure". Until a Godly man stands in the pulpit of BBC and pronounces the act as the SIN that it is the Lords will isn't done acting.
Hi David. Thank you for your request for my opinion. It's very gratifying to me for someone to ask.
Your question was:
Faithnhope,
May I ask: Do you believe grace means that leaders should remain unaccountable for serious misconduct? The issues being addressed are not one or two “slights” where someone has their feelings bent out of shape. What is being addressed is issues that concern ministerial child abuse and a pastor who covered it up, allowing the man to continue to work with the sheep. I believe the Good Shepherd, who was full of grace, had no problem dealing strongly with those who might hurt his sheep.
Respectfully,
david
No, I think leaders (and followers) should always be held accountable for their actions. There is such a thing as 'grace abuse'. However, I believe that those leaders should not be held accountable by those who have personal vendettas against them.
We should be accountable to the God-instituted authorities that have been placed over us. Each of us will be held to account for what God has entrusted us to. If He calls us to hound Steve Gaines out of Memphis, woe to us it we don't!
However, if we're just unhappy because we sang 'Heart of Worship' instead of 'A Mighty Fortress' in church Sunday morning, well...
ofg,
;)
Ace,
I understand you wish the issue would just go away. Many of us do. I also wish that PW wasn't still being PAID by the church while out on this leave for a heinous act that he has admitted to and will ultimately receive punishment for. Why does BBC need to pay PW's salary for 30 more days while the inevitable needless investigation takes place. TN is a right to hire right to fire state. No reason to fire a person is necessary but I'd say we surely have good grounds to do so.
Jusst saw sg on tv tonignt. I feel like there has been a "bait and switch" and s definite disconnect with reality.
He knew about this 6 months ago and had no intention of an investigation. What is this, we want to protect Bellevue and assure everyone their children are safe? THEY GOT CAUGHT! But are acting like it just now came to their attentiona and they are on it! And what's all this stuff about how forgiving he is to Dr. Spradlin? What does he have to forgive Dr. Spradlin for???!!
Ju,
I understand you wish the issue would just go away. Many of us do.
When you say that 'may of us do' referring to the issue going away, I'm assuming you are including yourself. Then let's just drop it for now and wait for the investation to be completed? They're going to do one, so can we not wait patiently for the report to be put together? That's the only way it's going to go away for now...if you and I both drop it.
I also wish that PW wasn't still being PAID by the church while out on this leave for a heinous act that he has admitted to and will ultimately receive punishment for.
If the accusations are true, then yes, he will be punished accordingly. And, yes, perhaps he shouldn't be paid...but that decision has already been made and so we'll have to deal with it...there's nothing we can do about that.
FormerBellevueMember,
I see that my post went on three times...I am so sorry...I messed up and don't know how to take the multiples off...please forgive.
Don't worry about it...the 3 posts didn't bother me and you are right with what you wrote. It's time we all respect Gaines.
Ace,
As for SG's resignation. A true man of integrity such as "Pastor" who posts here would have already tendered his resignation. I would postulate that a vote of confidence will be called soon and will lay to rest the calls for SG's resignation. I'll also state that it is my opinion that there is more to this story that may well come out. If you would endulge me could you think of any reason why SG would keep PW around for any length of time given that SG is supposed to be the leader of the corner stone church in the SBC? Did the search committee make such a terrible error in their choice? Do you expect me to believ e that SG with 20 years experience doesn't know what to do in a situation like that? I'm interested in your thoughts.
My own children see the inconsistences in our pastor.
How can he tell a godly man to quit saying "Amen" and then ask for amens every Sunday?
How can he force godly people out and try to keep a minister who is a pedophile?
How can he refuse to preach at BBC on Wednesday nights but is willing to preach at other churches?
This has been a learning experience for them. God's word is always consistent. Dr. Rogers was consistent and never wavered. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. When a man starts running his own agenda instead of God's, things start to seem off balance.
Liberals support the killing of babies and protect the spotted owl.
My children are showing morediscernment than many adults.
I have read this comment many times from Steve Gaines supporters about the blog."You people are hurting the cause of Christ"
How does hiding child rapist from the members of the church ,help the cause of Christ?
Ask a stranger with children to visit Bellevue this Sunday,and be sure to bring their children.What do you think they will tell you,and whose fault is that? The blog or Steve Gaines admission that he allowed this man to remain a minister for six months and only because of pressure he then gave him a paid vacation.
Folks , the world is watching and in the "world " what steve Gaines did is not acceptable.
Ju,
As for SG's resignation. A true man of integrity such as "Pastor" who posts here would have already tendered his resignation.
Those are you thoughts and I have mine. Gaines has apologized and admitted some mistakes have been made...can we not forgive him? He's only human too...just like you and I.
I would postulate that a vote of confidence will be called soon and will lay to rest the calls for SG's resignation.
I look forward to this if it happens. We will see that the majority of people in the church reside with our pastor. However, if the vote was taken on this board it'll be 200 people saying he should resign and 4 or 5 saying he should stay. Don't think the majority of people in the church disagree with Gaines just because the majority here do.
If you would endulge me could you think of any reason why SG would keep PW around for any length of time given that SG is supposed to be the leader of the corner stone church in the SBC?
I don't know so I'm not going to talk about his reason...because that would be called gossip.
Did the search committee make such a terrible error in their choice?
No.
Do you expect me to believ e that SG with 20 years experience doesn't know what to do in a situation like that?
No.
Formerbellevuemembercloseby:
If you log in, you can go back to your extra posts and click on the little trash can that will appear at the bottom of every single one of your posts. They can be deleted that way.
ace said...
Gaines admitted that waiting 6 months was a mistake. It's time to drop that issue. What more are you waiting for...a resignation? Ain't gonna come.
Ace,
how many "mistakes" is he going to have to get up there an apologize for...apologies I might add that are forced by the pressure brought right here on this blog and Haywoods site...before we have to ask ourselves that we should perhaps take a second look at him?
Don’t say 7*70. I wasn’t saying how many before we stop forgiving him, just how many before we lose complete trust in his ability to lead the congregation that is Bellevue? This ignores the facts that he has much left to apologize for…mainly the lies and half-truths and deceptions that have been documented here and elsewhere, even though you choose not to agree.
And you are right about the resignation "aint gonna come".
I will remind the board of what happened when Clinton was impeached. Clinton decided to put the whole country through the turmoil rather than do the honorable thing and just resign.
Bob Livingston (R-LA) was all set to become Speaker of the House until Larry Flint (Publisher of Hustler magazine) tried to attack his character for daring to hold the President accountable.
You remember what happened next? When Larry Flint revealed Livingston's past affair, instead of trying to "wait it out", Livingston immediately removed himself from the Speaker of the House position, and resigned from Congress. He knew that in his position, he set an example to the Nation, and integrity demanded he leave.
Unlike the President.
FinanceGuy,
how many "mistakes" is he going to have to get up there an apologize for...
It depends. Gaines makes mistakes just as you do. How many issues have you apologized for in your lifetime? Surely more than 3 or 4, right? Maybe in the hundreds or thousands?
apologies I might add that are forced by the pressure brought right here on this blog and Haywoods site
Jim Haywood owes a lot people an apology. How come when his site reports rumors and false information he is praised until the lies are revealed then those issues just...disappear? Jim is not as great as everyone thinks he is. He is far from it. Why won't you ask him about all the lies that were on the site? Why don't you ask him if he enjoys being on TV? After all, he is the one who called the media about all this stuff which was uncalled for. "All hail Jim Haywood" - that is the way a lot of you people are acting here. Guess what...it's not about Jim...it's about Jesus.
Thank you Ace for your responses. Were you at the service tonight? Unfortunately I have to agree with you on the vote of confidence. He had better do it soon. I also think ther e won't be as many voting for him as you'd like to believe. The more time that passes the more informed the general congregation will become. But as I've stated already I think a lot of the congregation are just sheep that have no real discernment when it comes to sin and the consequences. They will stay and give SG standing O's until the cows come home because it's the easy thing to do. The hard thing to do is realize for yourself that you cannot be lead by one who can't lead himself properly. Anyway it saddens me the whole thing deeply saddens me and my wife.
Ju said...
"The only thing that my wife and I can come up with is that much of Bellevue's congregation don't have the ability to discern sin and/or understand what should happen following it's discovery?"
I noticed on TV that the crowd was not that large, perhaps because those of us who are discerning were driven off in order to form a more perfect congregation for Gaines Worship.
I appreciate the fact that you did notice that he did not determine to stay because the Lord gave him permission to stay - and that he did not say he prayed about it (after reading these posts, I can just about promise that he WILL come out with that on Sunday - whatever it takes, he will do) I posted earlier regarding his lack of prayerful decisions. If the man had prayed about his decision regarding PW, do you think we would be discussing it today?
The root of it all, I believe, is that we have a man who came on board to "teach us how to pray" - that has no experience it the practice of prayer himself (like Dr Rogers didn't have a clue-don't you know that hurt when Gaines made that statement).
Here it is Christmas, and we cannot worship at our church, that is a sad commentary on Steve Gaines.
The Lord will remove him or remove HIMSELF from Bellevue. The prayers of the faithful do not go unanswered.
It depends. Gaines makes mistakes just as you do. How many issues have you apologized for in your lifetime? Surely more than 3 or 4, right? Maybe in the hundreds or thousands?
Ace,
Make no mistake. (pun intended) If he made 15 mistakes a day 365 days a year for 30 years I am willing to forgive him each one. However, at some point, his "mistakes" will have such consequenses that we would be foolish to allow him to remain in a position of such trust and authority.
We can only hope and pray this "Mistake" didn't have serious consequeses for some other innocent victim.
And as far as myself, I am not the Senior Pastor, with 20+ years experience of a large church. I don't think I can be held to the same standard of competence.
Ju,
Thank you Ace for your responses.
No problem.
Were you at the service tonight?
I was at church tonight but not in the service...I have other responsibilities I have to deal with so I only saw bits and pieces of the service. I intend to listen to it tomorrow sometime, though.
I also think ther e won't be as many voting for him as you'd like to believe.
I disagree, but I think time will tell.
Ace , given that Paul Williams has admitted to raping his son,why is there a need for an investigation?
FWIW,
I'd estimate that about 95% of the congregation stood and applauded when Steve said he'd like to stay on as pastor.
FinanceGuy,
If he made 15 mistakes a day 365 days a year for 30 years I am willing to forgive him each one.
That's great to know. (really!) :-)
However, at some point, his "mistakes" will have such consequenses that we would be foolish to allow him to remain in a position of such trust and authority.
Perhaps that is the case, but that applies with every single one of us. Here's the deal...your life is not under a microscope like Gaines' life is at the moment. I think if your life (or even mine for the matter) was the center of focus like Gaines' is then you should be ashamed of yourself and I should too...if that makes sense?
We can only hope and pray this "Mistake" didn't have serious consequeses for some other innocent victim.
And the investigation will reveal that soon, hopefully.
And as far as myself, I am not the Senior Pastor, with 20+ years experience of a large church. I don't think I can be held to the same standard of competence.
True, you are not the senior pastor but I hope that you are a Christian and by claiming to be one we really should be held up just as high in regard.
I would agree. Of course my wife and I along with some others near us were sitting so we couldn't get quite as good a count.
Is "Ace" Bruce Brooke?
Sounds more like him every day? "There ain't gonna be a meeting", an apology "Ain't gonna come"
It is beginning to sound way too familiar?
Perhaps a clone?
CJesusInMe,
Amen Sister! I'll see you at GBC this sunday (only because we have no bible fellowship classes)!
There is still a service at Bellevue at 10:00am if you are interested (or anyone else out there without a church home!)
NThePew,
Ace , given that Paul Williams has admitted to raping his son,why is there a need for an investigation?
Were you at the meeting with Paul and Steve? Could you tell us exactly what was said between the two?
Oh wait, point proven..you weren't there. That is why this is stated as a 'moral failure' or whatever it is that they are calling it...
And I'm not saying it didn't happen, so don't misquote me. I'm just saying unless you were at the meeting, you need to hush-hush.
Mom4,
Is "Ace" Bruce Brooke?
No.
I couldn't help but notice that Joe Jernigan and Dr. Castellaw stood in support of Pastor Gaines Wednesday night.
Should we turn our wrath toward them too? Seems like a double standard if we don't...
Formerbellevuemembercloseby:
I see what you mean, but I know that "pinkersocks" has never made a Clinton/Gaines comparison in a sexual manner. The return comment of "overflowinggrace" made the inference--not "pinkersocks". Since the latter poster has not been around long enough for me to somewhat know his/her general demeanor on here, I cannot even imagine why he/she would take what pinkersocks said in a womanizing way. Rather, I think overflowinggrace is rather new to this site (I do not recall his/her name having been on here before tonight) and underestimates the rules of decency we try to maintain here. There has never before been a womanizing slur on here directed towards Dr. Gaines. Even those who disagree with us on this site who regularly post on here would confirm this as a fact.
Pinkersocks:
Could you go back to your 9:38 post and explain your mention of Clinton manual so that "formerbellevuemembercloseby" will not have the wrong idea about us, please?
Sorry you had to come in at a rather low point and get the wrong idea. Perhaps it was "overflowinggrace" who had the wrong idea. Either way, sorry for this. We do not want this.
Dee
David,
If you and your cronies think SG has so much support, can you explain why there were so few in the service tonight?
Wednesday night services aren't always packed and is a smaller crowd than Sundays. How about we wait until Sunday and see how many people show up then and let that do the talking?
Ok Ace I know your saying here that "your not saying it didn't happen" but isn't your willingness to wait for the end of an investigation tantamount to your belief that it's possible that it didn't happen? Even though we have public statements of guilt? It must be really hard to convince you of anything in your regular offline life :)
ace said...
CJesusInMe,
Amen Sister! I'll see you at GBC this sunday (only because we have no bible fellowship classes)!
There is still a service at Bellevue at 10:00am if you are interested (or anyone else out there without a church home!)
10:45 PM, December 20, 2006
With every news channel and most radio stations broadcasting news of a child rapist on staff at Bellevue I doubt that there are many without a church home will visit Bellevue especially if they have children.
ace said....
"There is still a service at Bellevue at 10:00am if you are interested (or anyone else out there without a church home!)"
Why would we want to attend and hear another self glorifying message when we can hear a word from God elsewhere? Perhaps if we took clapping and swaying lessons, we could wax philosophical and get something out of it, but I think we would rather worship.
Unless, you are planning on staging your vote of confidence that day...nnnaaaawwww, we would rather worship.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Faith,
I don't know that I'd say that Dr Joe was in support of Dr Gaines. He clearly stated that he was "asked" to not preach and to just have a time of extended prayer. If he was clearly in support I don't think they would have had to ask him to do something like that.
ace said...
Mom4,
Is "Ace" Bruce Brooke?
No"
Then you must be Larry Ray?.
David,
Steve Gaines had rather see this church be torn apart and become a shell of it's former self than to lose his job.
First of all, sorry I missed this post earlier!
This isn't really true. For one thing, Gaines is showing us what a leader should be like...and that is to remain strong in what we believe in when attacks are made. Gaines has been a huge influence to me in how he has decided to stay.
All the people accused Jesus of being a bad person and claimed to be the Messiah and they crucified Him because of that. What would have happened if Jesus just walked away and left those people in peace? Hmm...
Surely Ace is not Larry Ray. Please Lord tell me your not Larry Ray.
Unfortunately, I agree with Ace. I think we would all be very surprised if a confidence vote was taken. I believe the majority would ask Steve Gaines to stay.
One of the tactics in a dictatorship (say,in Hitler's Germany) is that if you repeat a lie often enough it will eventually be accepted as fact - no matter what evidence there is to the contrary. Evolution being taught as fact is another example of this.
The leadership has repeatedly told BBC members that the website is full of lies. What lies? People believe this, stay in the dark, and then feel spiritually superior for being in the dark. I am so amazed daily at the people I discover who are so easily misled and I understand how the anti-christ will so easily command the loyalty of his followers one day...
No, I'm not calling Gaines the anti-christ. I just see amindset forming in the church. People seem to expect so little of our leaders now. Why? We never had to forgive every Sunday before?
Ace calm down now your likening SG to Jesus. This is what some people have said is part of the real problem at BBC.
Didn't Dr. Joe say that the Bellevue family affirmed Pastor Steve as God's man for the job?
If Dr. Gaines is chased off, so should his supporters be...
Ju,
Ok Ace I know your saying here that "your not saying it didn't happen" but isn't your willingness to wait for the end of an investigation tantamount to your belief that it's possible that it didn't happen?
It means exactly what it means. I'm willing to wait. I'm not going to gossip about P.W. and his family until I hear the investigation reveals. Even after then, I'm not going to gossip about it but then I'll be able to talk about the situation more intellegently.
It must be really hard to convince you of anything in your regular offline life :)
I don't know about that...you'll have to ask my friends about that to see what they say. :-)
ace said....
"All the people accused Jesus of being a bad person and claimed to be the Messiah and they crucified Him because of that."
Are you comparing Steve Gaines to Jesus?
They spit in Jesus' face, what do you think SG would do if someone spat in his face? Turn the other cheek, hardly! More like demonize them from the pulpit, run them off off or seek legal counsel to know how to deal with it.
ace said..Were you at the meeting with Paul and Steve? Could you tell us exactly what was said between the two?
Oh wait, point proven..you weren't there. That is why this is stated as a 'moral failure' or whatever it is that they are calling it...
And I'm not saying it didn't happen, so don't misquote me. I'm just saying unless you were at the meeting, you need to hush-hush.
10:47 PM, December 20, 2006
Ace if you had a son ,would let him spend a night at the Paul Williams home? Or your younger brother?
Faith,
That is exactly what will happen. What happened at GBC when it happened? The people that stood up for what that church felt was their core beliefs reclaimed their church and stayed and the rest moved on to some place else.
Mom4,
Then you must be Larry Ray?
No. For further questions on if I am "this" or "that" person please email me at acefromthebbcforum@gmail.com - I don't want to fill up this forum with useless posts like this.
Here's a quote from the 'saving bellevue' website:
From a Gardendale WEB site not affiliated with the church there
"I was repeatedly victimized by a family member."
Truth, or innuendo?
I listened to the prayer meeting comments by Dr. Gaines and David Coombs.
I have been a pastor longer than Dr. Gaines and I can not imagine listening to a staff member make a confession of molesting his son and conclude it did not need further action -- especially if the fact had been kept from the prior senior pastor for 17 years.
That lack of disclosure itself would be a red flag even if the sin had been consentual adultery. But when a minister has sexually assaulted his son and hidden it... waiting 6 months while assuming everything was just fine is unbelievable.
I do not understand why Dr. Gaines does not openly acknowledge that his decision not to take decisive action was a major lapse of judgment and ask the forgiveness of the congregation.
There does not need to be a investigation before coming to this conclusion. Dr. Gaines should have acknowledged his poor judgment and asked for forgiveness last Sunday following the announcement. He should have done it tonight.
His failure to do so communicates to me that he thinks his decision to extend confidentiality to an admitted pedophile who molested his son was a good one if PW was telling the truth and it only became a problem when doubt later surfaced.
Unless this is fully dealt with Bellevue could become Ichabod Baptist. I do not want to see God take His hand off of Bellevue.
Dr. Steve J.
1 Kings 4:21 And she named the child Ichabod, saying, The glory is departed from Israel:
Ju,
Ace calm down now your likening SG to Jesus. This is what some people have said is part of the real problem at BBC.
Can we not compare people to Jesus with certain aspects of their life? I'm not saying Gaines IS Jesus...there is a difference...
ace said...
Mom4,
Then you must be Larry Ray?
No. For further questions on if I am "this" or "that" person please email me at acefromthebbcforum@gmail.com - I don't want to fill up this forum with useless posts like this.
AAWWW Ace, This is fun!
Mom4,
Are you comparing Steve Gaines to Jesus?
I just told a story about Jesus...is there a problem with that?
They spit in Jesus' face, what do you think SG would do if someone spat in his face?
Here's the problem...you people are essentially spitting on Steve Gaines with your posts of hatred and lies.
Turn the other cheek, hardly!
I think we've already seen how Gaines has reacted. With a forgiving heart and remaining strong.
NThePew,
Ace if you had a son ,would let him spend a night at the Paul Williams home? Or your younger brother?
Why don't you ask me that again when the investigation has been completed. Thanks.
FaithNHope,
Here's a quote from the 'saving bellevue' website:
From a Gardendale WEB site not affiliated with the church there
"I was repeatedly victimized by a family member."
Truth, or innuendo?
Read the entire page. They are not talking about a Bellevue or Gardendale staff member...they are talking about just someone in their family from what I understand. Again, the SB.com site gives us the appearance of evil.
Blind as a bat you are:)
If you thing this is "bad", check out his former church members and see what all they have to say..
Faithnhope,
"I was repeatedly victimized by a family member."
That statement is 100% true and it has nothing to do with Gardendale. That statement was posted here first last Friday after the victim learned PW was the molester. I know the victim and she is not a poster to the forum, but she felt she should speak up that once about what happened to her. Her statement gives you insight into how PW's sin affects more than just his family. I am praying for his family and anyone else victimized by him.
When is the worship service at GBC this Sunday?
I was going to stay home and hear Dr. Rogers but maybe we should start getting to know the people at GBC....would love to hear the choir under brother Jim.
I am amazed. I have watched from a distance for months what began as a man saying amen too much, some men climbing a fence, credit card issues, removing your long time Music Minister, and finally... yes FINALLY a molestation within your "Beloved Bellevue" that may finally bring enough attention to your "Beloved Bellevue" to bring down your Pastor.
At what price... At what Price to Your "Beloved Bellevue".... Who is going to be left... Who is going to want to come be a part of your "Beloved Bellevue"
What started as a case of sour grapes on a blog has turned into a full fledged assault on a Pastor and believe it or not on your "Beloved Bellevue".
I firmly believe that in 4 months, your blogs and the SavingBellevue site have done more damage to your "Beloved Bellevue" than the good that 30 years of Dr. Rogers has done.
In the end, who wins... The enemy....
You have all stood silently by and watched as DR. Rogers LWF organization has profited from sermon after sermon as it is played across the nation.... MILLIONS of dollars have gone through that organization as a result of videos being purchased of your "Beloved Bellevue" and the July 4th specials and your Singing Christmas Tree specials... No one has ever said a word... no one dared to question Dr. Rogers or LWF...
If you are successful at running off your Pastor, who would come... WHO would want to be under the magnifying glass... Who has NO skeletons... and Who is PERFECT ENOUGH to live up to Dr. Rogers....
Where will your "Beloved Bellevue" be in 5 years... What damage will the kingdom suffer as a result of this seemingly endless witch hunt?
I pray that God will somehow use this to win souls. I have never been a fan of a church split but in this case, it would probably be for the best!
David,
What's the bottom line? Why are you still supporting a leader who makes such serious mistakes with the sheep?
Christ has given us forgiveness and it only appropriate that Gaines gets ours. I am supporting Gaines because I do not believe all the trash that is going on about him...it's as simple as that.
But when a mistake is made concerning children, it gives rise to the question: Is there anything you would not support? (I'm not being mean, I am curious)
Yes, actually, there are some things I don't support... regarding Bellevue too. *gasp* imagine that coming from my mouth! There is a lot I disagree with...today...and 10 years ago. but you know what? It's not about me....it's about Him (Jesus)
ace said...
Wednesday night services aren't always packed and is a smaller crowd than Sundays. How about we wait until Sunday and see how many people show up then and let that do the talking?
I doubt that attendnce for this Sunday would be an accurate barometer. First, a goodly number of the "two times a year church goers will be there for Christmas. Secondly, there will be a group of people there to watch the train wreck.
ace said Why don't you ask me that again when the investigation has been completed. Thanks.
Ace you are one sick person.Remember Paul W admitted to raping his .
JU said...
"There is no way that someone of SG's purported spiritual stature would allow PW to remain for 6 months much less 6 minutes. I feel there is darkness yet to be found."
Sadly, I feel this in my "gut" also. Something that has always been puzzling to me is that my mother stayed with our dad after I told her what he was doing. As an adult looking back, I concluded that she stayed due to fear...fear that she would have to support herself and three children alone? I'll never know, but I see the same response by many BBC members who are angry that this grievous sin has been made public - many members who don't place much weight on this matter of 1) our sr. pastor not being forthright with the congregation; and 2)having a pastor on staff who confessed to sexually abusing his own son.
Why the fear? Why the anger? Regardless of who is involved, why wouldn't we want this putrid sore cut open so we can clean it, bind it up and start the healing process?
Paul Williams was dangerous to children 3, 6, 10, 15, etc., etc....years ago. Nothing was done. And one of you "Jim Haywood Worshipers" let the cat out of the bag on another thread. He said that Steve or somebody had maybe found a file and that is why Paul was confronted. If there were a file, and I'm sure there was, then who knew about this before Steve got there? After the investigation is done, I'm sure it will be revealed. But when it is, the mindless Jim Haywood crowd will claim that the documents are fake or some other conspiracy-type jargon.
Josh: You are so sure that things have been done wrong under Dr Gaines . . . Well, tell us about the "don't ask - don't tell" policy over the past 15 or so years regarding homosexuals in the choir? Well? . . . Tell us! . . . We deserve answers! Were the past leaders wrong? Did they turn a blind eye? Were they not wrong? What do you know about this and when did you first know? Or were you one of the first to know?
amazed
Would you have left Haggard in the pulpit after his sins of homosexuality and drug abuse?
I suppose you are angry at those who exposed him and ruined the good name of his church? You must be ALL about appearances. You know, Jesus was not about appearances. All this has happened and needs to be dealt with. Sorry it isn't pretty.
Everybody is trying to make a big deal out of Steve changing the locks on his door to keep Adrian out. Why would Adrian want to go into his office? Anybody in thier right mind would change the locks, including you. So shut up Satan!
Quick question... I have seen posts saying that the live feed was cut off tonight. I am in another state and I watched the service. I watched Steve Gaines get up, say that Mike Spradlin had asked him to resign (via CA), then say that he wanted to stay. I even saw the standing o. I wonder why I could watch it but it was cut off for others??? Just wondering...
ace one last question
Were you a juror on the OJ Simpsom trial?
David,
Tell me your not comparing SG's leadership qualities to Jesus!
You read my post. Take it how you want to.
We need to have a new segment of the service each Sunday. There should be 10 minutes set aside each Sunday for SG to apologize or to justify his "mistakes of the head".
Unless you are perfect, drop it. I have a feeling if I looked at your past I could find some horrible things you have personally said, thought, or done.
If those could be posted each Sunday in Bellevue Today, then we would all know what the sermon would be about ahead of time.
Well, well, well...aren't you a comedian?
SG does a wonderful job of tying his sermons in with his justifications.
Maybe you should try focusing on the Word of God during the sermon instead of Steve Gaines and you'll get something out of the sermon.
Mark Wiley
Desperate for a distraction are we?
Here are some of the people who are brave enough to spew out hatred, but spineless enough not to put thier name: mom4 / whynotask / financeguy / faithnhope / ju / piglet / nthepew / cjesusnme. Post your names. I dare you.
Mar Wiley
"So Shut up, Satan!"????
My, my, some of that christian love and forgiveness oozing out.
Phil413
I actually order a copy of the July 4th special this past year.... LWF told me that they get THOUSANDS of orders for that and it would be several weeks... It took 6 weeks to get a copy. This was a copy of a Celebrate America from at least 6 years ago and I think it was $20 for a VHS copy... Are you telling me they aren't profiting anything if they get THOUSANDS of orders? Are their books as open as you all want Steve and Donna Gaines to be with their non profit?
Astounded,
I doubt that attendnce for this Sunday would be an accurate barometer. First, a goodly number of the "two times a year church goers will be there for Christmas. Secondly, there will be a group of people there to watch the train wreck.
You are unbelievable. You just can't take anything I say, can you? There always have to be 'ifs' and 'buts'....
I think at least one or two new posters here are trying to allude to the sexuality of Josh Manning? Does it seem like there doing that? Trustandobey is one of them.
NThePew,
Ace you are one sick person.Remember Paul W admitted to raping his .
I am not sick. I just don't participate in gossip unlike...well...you.
This isn't about Bellevue...God's kingdom will do quite fine without it..unless I'm mistaken...it did quite fine before it ever existed...this is about something bigger than Bellevue. You folks that weep and wail over poor Steve and poor Paul...you think YOU are SO loving...where's the victim?...do you care one iota for him?...I'm not seeing it...you're only interested in giving your standing 0's for your beloved "messiah". You could care less about what the truth is...or for the victim..as long you have YOUR man in the pulpit...I've got a strong feeling you're gonna get him in spades.
David,
Jumping the fense
Calling Mark Sharpe Hezbollah
Locking Dr. Rogers out of the office
Treatment of Dr. W.
Gift to FUMC
Letting a child molester stay on staff with no investigation for 6 months
Those are not the primary issues I disagree with...but since you brought it up.
Points 4, 5, and 6 and I don't 100 percent agree with....
As for the locks issue, perhaps if you knew what keys unlocked the doors you would drop this issue as well.
I have heard many people here refer to the "other information" that you say will soon be revealed.
I respect the fact that you do not want to reveal it yet, but I am curious why I hear some many people allude to it but one of the common themes I here around here is the desire for transparency?
And I am interested to know if anyone can or is willing to tell my why it is being kept under wraps for the time being?
I may be wrong, but to me threatening with this information is exactly the type of thing you would not respect from the current administration.
I must feel the same way you do about the church- I am not in the inner circle so I don't get to know.
Mark Wiley
ExcUUUUUUUse Me! I am protecting my identity from the leadership at our church whom I do not trust and who tries to drive out anyone who disagrees. I've never felt the need to disguise myself before the gestapo showed up. Some of our best sources would be removed if they gave their real names. Do you think we're naive?
NThePew,
ace one last question
Were you a juror on the OJ Simpsom trial?
No.
Mark Wiley,
If I published my name, I would put my family in the same hostile position as others are, and I am not willing to subject my children to the abuse that other have had to endure after they unwittingly used their real name.
That is my decision and not yours to make.
If the "key" incident were handled properly, it would most certainly NOT be a big deal, but, alas, like so many other mistakes of the mind, it twas not. You will need to go back and search the blog for the sorid details. There is a little more to it than changing the locks.
11:24 PM, December 20, 2006
Mark Wiley,
Here are some of the people who are brave enough to spew out hatred, but spineless enough not to put thier name: mom4 / whynotask / financeguy / faithnhope / ju / piglet / nthepew / cjesusnme. Post your names. I dare you.
Step down off your high horse, Mr. Wiley. Not everyone here is anonymous, and not everyone here will be intimidated by your tactics.
As has been explained countless times here and elsewhere, we're not "spewing hate." What a mindless charge for you and others to make! Was Jesus spewing hate at the thieves and moneychangers in the temple? At the Pharisees? Have we become so politically correct that calling out sin and egregious ethical violations for what they are, and questioning the outright abuse of power by those in trusted leadership positions, is now labeled "hate"? Is this your tactic to shut up those you disagree with? I'm sorry, Mr. Wiley, you'll have to do better than that.
You forget, sir, that you're speaking to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who love our church dearly, have years invested here with our families, and want NOTHING but the truth and to see Bellevue returned to its former status as a beacon of integrity and hope to a lost and dying world.
Collin Houseal
phil413
That is pretty common for a non profit to not pay the owner a salary... that is usually sent down the pipeline to pay all of the family members who work for the non profit... There are lots of benefits that come with not taking a salary from a non profit... but follow the money. I would bet you won't see the tax returns of the family members of a non profit CEO!
Amazed,
I actually order a copy of the July 4th special this past year.... LWF told me that they get THOUSANDS of orders for that and it would be several weeks...
And that statement is true.
This was a copy of a Celebrate America from at least 6 years ago and I think it was $20 for a VHS copy...
If you wanted the new version you should order through Bellevue's Bookstore. LWF orders their copies of Celebrate America directly from Bellevue and they specific what year they want.
And, yes, LWF is making a profit in case there is confusion.
Mark Wiley, just because you have a screen name that says Mark Wiley it doesn't necessarily mean that is who you are. So based on that thought process you can't prove who you are to me so you might as well be anonymous to me and the rest of the board. It is true that anonymity is probably the fuel that enabled this blog to light the way to many of the truths that have been laid to bare. Do you think we would have heard about a molestation in the church otherwise? Or would we have gotten other closely held secrets from inside the church otherwise? Just like the Rape Hotlines or EEOC hotlines at your workplace there is definitely a place for anonymity when dealing with sin.
Hey David Matlock,
It is called "righteous idignation". I am tired of you people who have made Adrian a God pick apart evry little thing Steve does or does not do just because a bearded man puts out some trash on the internet.
I think that I have seen tons of hatred come out of the "Jim Haywood" camp. So don't go throwing stones at me.
ace said...
Astounded,
I doubt that attendnce for this Sunday would be an accurate barometer. First, a goodly number of the "two times a year church goers will be there for Christmas. Secondly, there will be a group of people there to watch the train wreck.
You are unbelievable. You just can't take anything I say, can you? There always have to be 'ifs' and 'buts'....
What is unbelievable about my statement? I know that many churches hold numerous service during Christmas time. I think Hope Pres is holding 9 services. They do that because many people go to church suring Christmas and Easter and never darken the doors any other time of the year. And, considering the news coverage, you know as well as I that many people will come just because of that.
ace said...
"As for the locks issue, perhaps if you knew what keys unlocked the doors you would drop this issue as well."
Would that be a "AB" key, or is it a "BA" key, ooohhh welll - it is some kid of key with letters on it?
I guess the key to the pastor's suite was neither, but the key to the outside door, hhhmmmmmm?
I hope they do not have a vote of confidence on Sunday, as I will be out of town seeing family
I heard Chuck Taylor sent a letter out to certain deacons asking them to come to Church tonight to show support for the Pastor and to increase the attendence.
The fear was that very few of the members would come tonight.
Once again, they are manipulating people in order to increase the size of the Wednesday night crowd.
If this had not happened, I suppose Steve could have let people just sit in a circle on the floor.
Sorry for the typos, my keyboard is not a registerin this late.
Astounded,
What is unbelievable about my statement? I know that many churches hold numerous service during Christmas time.
What I was saying is that you just want to argue everything that might be positive...that is all.
What are the crowds usually like on Wednesday night? I was thinking it was really low when I was watching it on the live stream.
Hey David,
Did Adrian have a lock on his door? The answer is yes. Was he trying to keep somebody from stealing books? No it's just common sense. But you had to make an assertion that Steve did it out of being vindictive. Since when did you become a mind reader. Once again, you showed your HATRED!
Ask,
I heard Chuck Taylor sent a letter out to certain deacons asking them to come to Church tonight to show support for the Pastor and to increase the attendence.
Who did you hear this from?
Can you say... G-O-S-S-I-P?
scmom,
What are the crowds usually like on Wednesday night? I was thinking it was really low when I was watching it on the live stream.
Attendance is usually low on Wednesday nights.
I trully wish that all the comments could be made without sarcasm and malice. I see in some posts a joyful vengenace - that is not how we should behave as the body of Christ. It is obvious that there are those posting comments just to incite, why not ignore them?
ace said...
"And, yes, LWF is making a profit in case there is confusion."
YOU do NOT know what you are talking about - those materials are filled orders from LWF listeners and there is not a profit margin! By the way, since Gaines became president, I heard that LWF does not get them at cost anymore - so now WHO is taking a profit?
Mark Wiley,
And yes, we're all quite familiar with what "righteous indignation" means. We've experienced our fair share of it here, as well.
Regarding Jim Haywood, he runs a completely separate site. While some folks here may have contact with him, this is a separate forum and our participation here does not necessarily reflect total agreement with Mr. Hayood's views or methods. That is not to malign him, for I do not know him. But you should not fabricate a connection where one does not exist.
It's been several years since I lived in Memphis but Wednesday nights seemed like it still had quite a crowd. I know they had classes all over the building as well as prayer time in the sanctuary. Is it still the same? Were there classes going on tonight?
Steve Gaines,
Please let the Church and yourself start to heal. I see no way while you are our Pastor this will happen.
If you love the Lord, Church, your family, then let the healing start to take place.
Why not go somewhere else and be the Pastor? That way, all can begin to heal.
Do you really want to preach where 40%, 30% or even 20& of the people do not want you?
If so, why? Is it the money?
Mom4,
YOU do NOT know what you are talking about - those materials are filled orders from LWF listeners and there is not a profit margin! By the way, since Gaines became president, I heard that LWF does not get them at cost anymore - so now WHO is taking a profit?
$20 for a VHS? Come on, now....don't tell me that is what it costs without a profit. I can get 2 VHS tapes for $.99 cents at Walgreens.
And who did you hear that other info from? More gossip.
Mark Wiley
Take deep breaths...count to 10.
Now go take a blood pressure pill and chill out.
phil413 said...
Ace,
...can you explain why there were so few in the service tonight?
I actually thought it was a decent wed night crowd, especially this close to the holidays.
ace said...
Ask,
I heard Chuck Taylor sent a letter out to certain deacons asking them to come to Church tonight to show support for the Pastor and to increase the attendence.
Who did you hear this from?
Can you say... G-O-S-S-I-P?
11:35 PM, December 20, 2006
ACE,
I guess you weren't on his list, But check your email.
Just listened to the audio from Wed night. It's NOT about forgiveness. Yes, we can all forgive PW - and should. The issue is the failure of leadership in promptly addressing the situation by removing PW from his duties which exposed children at BBC to unnecessary risk. THAT is the issue, not whether or not we can forgive PW.
And brother Mark Wiley needs to educate himself on the definition of "hate". Looks like he's adopted the definition used by the political left: "Oh, you disagree with me? You must be a racist, bigot, homophobe, etc. etc."
The Gaines supporters are just like the leftist Dems - trying to shout down their opposition by ignoring the substance of the arguments and labeling the opposing arguments as "hate speech".
Ed Thompson
ace said...
Astounded,
What is unbelievable about my statement? I know that many churches hold numerous service during Christmas time.
What I was saying is that you just want to argue everything that might be positive...that is all.
Ace,
First of all, I was not arguing. It just a fact that more people go to church during the holidays. If church attendance is used to measure the popularity of the pastor, then this Sunday's attendance would be an aberrance because of that.
Secondly, I actually haave a lot of respect for you. You seem to be slow to anger(except for my posts). You probably have an analytical/scientific background and never jump to conclusions. You also love your church.
I also believe that even you may become convinced that the greater good of the church may be for Steve Gaines to leave, but you sure will not announce it on a public blog.
Hey ch,
Jim Haywood and Josh Manning started this stuff back in the summer. He was angry with Steve and he wanted to let the whole world know. And now they do. Our church has been destroyed by gossip and lies on the internet and I am mad. And Jim the rebel rouser was there Sunday taping Steve. Why can't he just leave?
ask
Of course it's the money. If he leaves here he is washed up. No more half a million dollar a year job, speaking engagements on Wed. nights, free trips overseas, etc.
Who would have him after this?
He'll hang on to the bitter end.
Phil413
Without Rumor and Innuendo your site would not exist...
just because there has finally been something found that has drawn the media attention that you all have craved does not mean that you all are correct in the manner you have conducted yourselves.. I will leave and let you all bask in the satisfaction of the limelight which you have found...
"So shut up Satan!"
"Jim Haywood Worshipers"
"mindless Jim Haywood crowd"
Wiley,
Pick up your rocks and go home...you're just way to sweet for this blog.
ask said...
(SG)Why not go somewhere else and be the Pastor? That way, all can begin to heal.
Do you really want to preach where 40%, 30% or even 20& of the people do not want you?
If so, why? Is it the money?
Response:
I doubt that any sane church would want SG after all he has done to Bellevue. This is Bellevue - the Cornerstone of the SBC!!! And in 15 months or so, he has torn our church apart and shredded what A. Rogers left as a legacy.
Where's he going to go? He must know he's not going to get another church like Bellevue!! That's why he's hanging on for dear life to this sweet job. And the pay isn't bad either.
Ace,
I'm getting the distinct impression that SG could get up Sunday and apoligise of spending the night with a teenage hooker, getting drunk, doing smack, and ran around starting drunken brawls in bars downtown and you would be trumpting on here that "we don't understand the pressure he's under" and "we should forgive him and we were crazy to be calling for his resignation" "and we are just as guilty as he is for even calling him to account".
That's the only conclusion I can draw from your comments that "i'm a sinner like he is"
DISCLAIMER, I'm not accusing the pastor of the above. Just making a point with Mr. or Mrs Ace
Mark Wiley
Exactly what lies and gossip? I've yet to hear one thing here proven false.
ace said...
"And who did you hear that other info from? More gossip."
Tsk Tsk, Not going there dude. but it ain't gossip.
Astounded,
First of all, I was not arguing. It just a fact that more people go to church during the holidays. If church attendance is used to measure the popularity of the pastor, then this Sunday's attendance would be an aberrance because of that.
Okay, so besides a Wednesday night, when would a good time to measure attendance? The following Sunday? That would be New Years Eve, though...so the next?
Secondly, I actually haave a lot of respect for you. You seem to be slow to anger(except for my posts).
Thanks. And I'm sorry if you think I am angry at you...I'm not. You people here don't make me angry despite what most of you think. Nonetheless, I think I've offended you. Will you forgive me and accept my apologies?
You also love your church.
You got that right.
I also believe that even you may become convinced that the greater good of the church may be for Steve Gaines to leave, but you sure will not announce it on a public blog.
You are free to believe as you like. But for anyone reading this post, I stand by all my posts and I support Steve Gaines.
Hey Ed Thompson,
You are the pot calling the kettle black. Back in September I tried to post comments on Jim's site but he kept deleting (censoring) them. Censoring an opposing viewpoint is what liberal fascists democrats do.
to all, I was just watching Leno and he made the following joke in reference to Ted Haggard and the fact that this week another minister at that church was removed for "moral failures".
"The church said that they have formed a team to develop a code of ethics. I thought they already had a code of ethics...(dramatic pause)....it's called the TEN COMMANDMENTS!" (rim shot, applause/laughter)
I'm with Leno on this one.
ed_t said:
"The Gaines supporters are just like the leftist Dems - trying to shout down their opposition by ignoring the substance of the arguments and labeling the opposing arguments as "hate speech""
This is unfair and I take it personally. I think that most of you would place me with the Gaines supporters. And I will challenge any of you to find me shouting down the opposition or saying anyone that disagrees with SG is using "hate speech". I have tried to be very respectful of everyone here.
It seems to me that you are painting with a very broad brush on this.
FinanceGuy,
I'm not going to even address your last post because it was too ridiculous.
Why do I think it's all going back to the money for Steve Gaines?
Steve Gaines is trying to play the victim. If he is successful, he wins.
Piglet,
Exactly what lies and gossip? I've yet to hear one thing here proven false.
Surely you're not serious? Go read posts from weeks and months ago you and will see the lies.
Mom4,
Tsk Tsk, Not going there dude. but it ain't gossip.
Tsk Tsk, yes it is.
Mark Wiley,
Jim Haywood and Josh Manning started this stuff back in the summer.
No, to my knowledge Mark Sharpe was the first to bring up the issues that started all of this.
He was angry with Steve and he wanted to let the whole world know.
Again, I can't speak for Mr. Haywood and his internal feelings. My point is: they don't matter. There are multiple issues with ample evidence that go FAR beyond one man's feelings.
Our church has been destroyed by gossip and lies on the internet and I am mad.
Sir, I would ask that you identify which issues presented here, on THIS site, have been proven as gossip and/or lies. The fact of the matter is that, were it not for the pressure from this blog, many of the issues confronting us would not be known to the church body, INCLUDING Paul Williams' actions. Were it not for this blog, all indications are that PW would still be on staff today. As it is, an admitted pedophile rapist is still receiving his salary.
ed t
Don't let Mark's tantrums bother you.
He preaches tolerance but has trouble applying it.
Wiley,
Here's a thought...if you and your cohorts don't like this blog...why don't you just leave?
ace
If someone tells you there is a fire in the building - do you consider it gossip unless you see it yourself or do you get out of the building?
ace said...
FinanceGuy,
I'm not going to even address your last post because it was too ridiculous.
First, I didn't ask you to address it and
Second, it was like Rush Limbaugh says often, I was "demonstrating absurdity by being absurd"
Third, the point is, in your world, there is no level of ‘mistakes’ before you should question the pastors ability to lead. That was the point I made very well thank you.
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