Congratulations, you posted over 360 comments in the "Another New Financial Thread" in under 15 hours -- a new record. So here's the latest "new" financial thread.
Just a note: Some of us blew off some steam last night which is bound to happen in a venue such as this sometimes. But today's a new day, so let's pledge to stop feeding the bears and trolls and return to some semblance of serious, civil discussion. Your cooperation is much appreciated!
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
215 comments:
1 – 200 of 215 Newer› Newest»Thank you, mkw.
I remember that exchange and agree with you that they might well have gotten the idea here. It didn't make it a good idea though!
NASS
We need a miracle for Gaines to resign. Can those of us reading these posts determine to pray for God to remove him? We can never convince the hisservants of the world because they just can't see it. Right now it looks as though one-third of the deacon body oppose Gaines. Many of the other two-thirds will never open their eyes without divine intervention. We need to pray.
Ezekiel said:
I do not remember it saying love your neighbor, all those but homosexuals and abortioners.
Me:
I guess the question is are we loving them if we support their lifestyle by donanting to preachers that tell them their lifestyle is okay and promote a false (social) gospel. My parents struggled with something similar with my alcoholic brother. They loved him but just giving him cash was not really "helping" him. It was enabling him. It is a tough decision when it is so easy to just give someone mooney to make yourself feel better. You help yourself feel good, but in the end it may not really the one you are trying to help.
Anyway....
If we indeed donated $25,000 to FUMC then it went to a downtown church where the Senior Pastor is Martha Wagley. I support helping our neighbor whether they are a woman considering abortion, a drug addict, alcoholic, homosexual or a deacon with a drinking problem or a church member engaged in adultery. However, I am not certain just giving someone money, food and medicine without the real Gospel is what we should be doing. Couldn’t we find a bible based ministry downtown to allocate funds to? It appears the downtown church was insured, and the United Methodist Denomination has provided relief and support. I guess it bothers me on some level because it sounds like maybe this was done *not* because it was really needed, but as a goodwill gesture. I feel greedy about not wanting to give them money, but when I read the stuff below I’m sure I wouldn’t want to support their teaching and world view either. Would you? Giving BBC money carries a certain endorement of their world view and teaching that really causes me concern.
You can get a picture of Senior Pastor Martha Wagley’s beliefs HERE .
Below is a snapshot. I am sourcing this so no one will accuse me of spreading rumors about her teachings.
Monday night, Bishop Judith Craig (retired) electrified the gathering with her sermon during the memorial service, when she described how women kept “knocking on the church’s door” until ordained ministry was opened to them. Her sermon proved so effective that throughout the remainder of the event, participants frequently could be seen making a knocking gesture to signify closed doors in the church that still need to be opened.
< snip >
On Tuesday morning, supporters for the inclusion of homosexual people lined the hallway leading to the main convention hall, singing “Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God.” Participants often made the “knocking” gesture from Bishop Craig’s sermon as they passed through the lines of singers. The music led participants toward exhibits of closed doors where they were invited to sign and distribute a “bloody knuckle” petition for inclusion of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people. “Bloody knuckle” refers to the three decades during which many United Methodists have been “knocking” to get the UMC to drop its exclusionary stances. [Editorial note: “bloody knuckle” petitions are a reference to longstanding attempts seeking full inclusion of homosexual people in The United Methodist Church and granting them full civil rights including marriage.]
The consultation was organized by a 19-member design team, co-chaired by the Revs. Martha Wagley (Memphis Annual Conference) and Gina Kim (East Ohio Annual Conference) and included Bishops Shamana and Middleton.
It is unclear whether the support is for inclusion of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people as church members in good standing, or as clergy. I have been told Pastor Wagely supports gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people for Methodist Clergy positions by people I know and trust, but I can’t find it in writing yet. In any event gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people are taught by these pastors to believe their lifestyle is acceptable.
I guess I would like to know whether BBC tithes are being used to further this teaching, and if so why.
Couple more question
1. Is there a ploicy in place that allows for this type of donation to another organization? If not why not? Please post the policy if it exixts so we can see what the maximum donation amount is and who is authorized to disburse funds.
2. If Dr Gaines made the donation, [a]what were his motivations and [b]did he consult with anyone? Does he really have the authorization to cut a $25,000 check with no committee or congregational authorization?
I called my Dad about this who is an 84 year old lifetime deacon (still active but not BBC member). He indicated the churches he has served always approved things like this at a business meeting. A commitee may recommend it, but congregation approved it after discussion with a vote. Seems like sound policy to me. It is not Dr. Gaines money, it is the churches money.
Group,
I would like to offer a brief synopsis of what has happened on this blog since the beginning.
A couple of acronyms will help to shorten the process. As well I will speak in generalities to keep from boring to tears those that have already seen it.
US …(U)nited (S)ervants
THEM…(T)rusting (H)is ..Gaines
not God (E)very (M)ove
US: Statement of Truth
Them: Lies, Slander, Gossip
US: Proof of Truth
Them: That never happened
US: Irrefutable Proof of Truth
Them: Ok, that happened, but
we knew that and so what.
US: Revealing Truth of Biblical
Principles To Refute So What
Them: Umm. There is a logical
and reasonable explanation.
Let the committee work.
Them: Ok the logical and
reasonable explanation is…
US: Error in The Logical
Reasonable Explanation
Them: ok..just a minute there is
is a logical and reasonable
explanation that the logical and
reasonable explanation is
flawed. Let the committee work.
Them: Lies, Slander, Gossip
ME: Baaaaaa loooonnneyy!
The truth, the whole truth is not an ever moving target.
For those that may have some confusion over what the battle at Bellevue is really about. I would like to offer this.
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
I should not have to remind anyone, but will that the above passage has heavenly meaning, earthly meaning, personal meaning, spiritual meaning and congregational meaning. I wanted to dispel the arguments before they were begun.
I have been a lurker here until recently.
Reasonable explanations. pooh.
The problem is that explanations are needed.
I would be very careful dividing the camp like that though. US vs Them ? We are all His creations. Like you said, we struggle not with flesh and blood. Most people are speaking from sincere conviction, whether it's based on Truth or not. In a battle of brother vs brother- everybody loses. I just want to be right with the Lord. But I'm sure that's what you meant, right?
The battle is the Lord's
stillwaitingandwatching said...
By George, I think I've got it.....
“his007 and Cary won't answer the $25,000 question because it just came out and the deacons, staff, committees, janitors, and church mice haven't gotten their talking points on this issue yet. Seems like BBC needs to set up a hotline so they can get up to speed quicker.”
----
Close, but actually it's worse than that. Why would you need to prepare everyone (talking points) for a great decision like giving the money to the church – don't you see, they think it was a good idea. That's why they did it. That's why there's no one prepared to defend it.
We are unequally yoked in many ways here. The methods, that are driven by values, principles and convictions are not the same as those of us that are expressing concerns - thus the expression of concern. They don't get. They truly believe what they did was wise and right. That is why the staff, deacons, etc have not been alerted or prepared YET for a response. They anticipated a "good job" response.
Again, the big problem is that these two groups do not share some of the same critical values and convictions. Think of the followers as neutral. The are simply trained to follow the leader - and they are doing so. And unfortunately when the leader, as any leader anywhere, makes a bad move the followers are not grounded, convectional, and strong of heart to stand and not bow.
Now, we've seen that many people are identifying and standing on their convictions. Many are finding that it's not so hard after all to take a stand – but I also think many of us are babes in this ring and just now learning to stand for what we believe.
charis,
I thought carefully about that before I clicked the "post button."
The fact of the matter is that we are already divided, it is not something that I created. It is just simply what is. If we can not be united in truth, then we must be divided by it.
Tim, I've enjoyed your posts :)
The point is that if we start identifying others as "them" and drawing human battle lines, all we'll get is a human battle. The Lord changed Saul to Paul. Our Lord is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Yes, we are responsible to stand for the truth, but if we start labelling people as "good" or "bad" ... or as "them" then we are limiting our view of God and what He can do
Yes, speak the truth in love
Chearis,
Let me preface this by saying that I am not questioning you or your convictions, but rather I am explaing to others who will read this blog and I would like to insure that they understand what I am speaking about.
Romans 16:17-18
17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
We are told to mark them and God has judged them and told us how to identify them. This indeed is a double edged sword and can only be swung, when interpreted correctly. The key word in this passage is "cause". "Cause divisions". Where is the cause of these divisions? Have I caused these divisions by pointing them out? Has this blog caused them? No, to me it is plain where the cause lies and I have marked them.
I personally think the congregation should vote to approve any unbudgeted spending items.
Yes, otherwise what is the point of having the congregation approve a budget? If you can circumvent the budget approval process by writing a check as large as $25,000 that requires no congregational approval, then the budget approval process is not as meaningful. It is too easily circumvented.
HisServant said...
my point was very simple and you can make it into whatever you want. i know you will anyway. I do not feel that I should have to answer any of your questions, jump through hoops, or anything else to earn your respect.
Would you please jump one more hoop and answer the $25,000 question???
As a long time lurker and first time poster I am interested to hear your answer.Your obvious attempt to avoid answering this question damages your credibility.
I suspect that your obvious avoidance to address this issue probably stems to your wanting to rubberstamp every action of the Pastor yet this @25,000 bothers you. If I am wrong please correct me but at the same time when you dispute my assumption please answer the $25,000 question.
hisservant
Yesterday when I posted some facts given to me by the Communication Committee you seemed pleased.
Is your non-response to the 25k question that you're not up on the topic? Just curious.
Andrew
I took a look at the visitor count on this site. It's not as high as it needs to be. Anybody have any ideas on how we can get the word out better? People need to know the truth that we've been discussing.
Is there still a question as to whether SG used a Bellevue credit card for personal expenses?
I am surprised we have not seen any follow-up to Proverbs' "nuclear" post last night.
mkw wrote:
God is in control and He can protect our investment in their misfortune and multiply our dollars as He sees fit, and He can also honor the spirit in which that money was given.
Amen
MKW
AND I am surprized that you would equate suggestion on the nlog as having any influence on the Leadership at Bellevue. That is really pitiful. Are you that desperate for a subject you can point your critical finger at?
I can go back and find some of your old posts and repost them so we can all see some the things you have suggested that the Leadership is now doing if you want me to.
I have a question for you Miriam Wilmoth. I think I read where you are a choir member but I am interested in knowing if you or your family are involved in the leadership of Bellevue or if any of you are on staff there or if any of you are personal friends to those in Leadership whose reputations are now being question here.
You seem not to have any serious concerns about Bellevue`s current leadership, if you do, I have not come across those posts yet.
MKW
I see you are going against the church`s leadership by blogging here, so you are at least resisting their authority in at least this one instance and I give you a hand clap for that but I would like to ask you if you are for the following letter and it`s contents or against it?
In the letter is this request from the committee:
"We would also kindly ask our membership to refrain from writing e-mails and responses on websites or blogs. This only serves to spread misinformation."
SR said...
mkw wrote:
God is in control and He can protect our investment in their misfortune and multiply our dollars as He sees fit, and He can also honor the spirit in which that money was given.
Amen
Yes God is in control but He also expects us to be good stewards with His gifts.I wonder if you would be so supportive if the leadership of the church sent $25,000 to the Haggard legal defense fund or to a mosque that may have burnt down????? I loathe the idea that tithes from a conservative christians will be used to consul women to have abortions, that the homosexual lifestyle is in harmony with God's will and if you don't belive that some of this money will not go for these programs of that church then it is no wonder that you so blindly follow SG
Someone asked, "What's next" and "How do we go about it?" (I'm paraphrasing.)
First, we need to find someone to replace SG. Now, before you guys go nuts on me, let me clarify something. I'm not suggesting we find a replacement pastor. I'm saying we need to find a sort of replacement INTERIM pastor. I believe the next pastor should be thoroughly researched by a competent search committee, despite the one that brought SG to us. But if we succeed in removing SG, we are going to need at least a temporary leader. I'm sure there will no shortage of neighboring pastors who will gladly take turns preaching while we find a permanent pastor. But in the meantime, we will need a leader.
Second, we need to gather our allies in high places. Deacons, ministers, teachers, prominent families... We need to coordinate with them so we know all of our options about how to do this and so we know whom we can count on. We don't need a pledge, we just need stand up and say "Enough Already!!" Maybe this should be our first step so these godly men can prayerfully choose our temporary leader.
Third, we need to set goals as far as dates and purposes. When do we act? What exactly do we believe should come of this? What consequences should come from this year of pain?
Fourth, we need to prayerfully make a list of the people who must go with SG. The rotten tree/weed must be pulled out by its roots. SG has not acted alone, sadly.
Fifth, we need to prayerfully make a list of the people we want to bring back and restore to our family.
Sixth, we need to prayerfully consider how or if we will get the word around. This will be difficult because, besides the current public forums, EVERYTHING will come to light before the world. Right now, if you want to know, you have to make the effort to read the blogs and websites or ask people what happened. If this goes public, it will ALL be on the news, radio... This will be bigger than it has been and that will be hard to contain, if it should be contained at all at this point.
I'm sure there will be more things to consider. I'm just a woman so I will respectfully leave the leadership to our men. God bless.
A.
dadoffour,
God doesn't expect good stewardship, he requires it.
Galatian 6:9, 10 - "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers."
Matthew 5:16 - "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven."
MKW SAID:
....calling someone yourself, then reporting here the gist of that conversation and what they told you, is hearsay and may not be necessarily helpful in the overall effort to get to the truth.....
Truth always comes out eventually. If what has been alleged is true, then I would ask consideration of a bilateral cancellation of all "gag orders" ....
Could it be that the Commication Committee read your post on this blog and wrote the letter that is trying to place a GAG ORDER on the members who are concerned about all the lies and misconduct at Bellevue?????
You see how rumors get started Ms. Wilmoth.
SR said...
dadoffour,
God doesn't expect good stewardship, he requires it.
Thank you for that.Let us pray that the leadership of BBC realizes this before they squander the these gifts from God to organizations that support activities that go against the Word of God
The issue is integrity. No member wants this confusion. Genuine Humility and fear of God needs to be modeled here and in the pulpit. Everyone acts like this disturbance just started. We were all 100% behind our pastor. Remember we're into the 2nd year of his pastorate. Many of us were faithful, while wondering what God was doing after actions by the leadership were hurtful, damaging and wrong. Only the regular, faithful members of inside Bellevue really understand.
MKW said
"this blog may have spawned the initial "good idea" of sending the $25K to FUMC in the first place."
I am curious how is this possible when the leadership denies ever reading this blog.
Why are you upset with" Blessed "
"Please do not throw in my face my "previous posts." "
when on the second post on this new thread you reposted the comments of several people. Please in all fairness ,do not critize others when they mimic your actions
Having read a list of the walking wounded from BBC I could give you a long list of walking wounded from GFBC that were removed from staff and replaced as Bro. Steve began his climb to BBC. We figured he had to do this in order to look "right" in the eyes BBC.We were what he liked to refer to as Bapticostal and of course that wouldn't do at Bellevue. One change was to remove our Minister of Music and replace him with Jaime Parker and we all know how that turned out. I believe it was all planned from the beginning. I say all this simply to say what has happen at BBC is no surprise to Gardendale. It was happening here to some degree but like Bellevue many refused to believe it and now that its happening at Bellevue we are very sad for you. Steve is an awesome man, a gifted preacher and loves the Lord with all his heart. Something happened about 5 years ago. I don't know if it was his illness or what but it changed the course of his life and I do know that we need to pray for him and pray hard. Please Bellevue, don't give up on him. Pray, pray, pray.
Gaines' use of the church credit card isn't the only question. Now we see that personal use of direct billing accounts is a problem too. So it's no longer just the plastic card. It's any account that BBC has with any vendor. Gaines is using them anytime he has a personal need.
I truely believe in my heart that Pastor Gaines wasn't ready to take the helm of BBC. I think both he an Dr. Rogers knew that. I think Dr Rogers was going to be his guiding light during the transition. We all now god called him home before he could do that. Now Pastor Gaines sits atop a vast BBC empire if you will. As I've said before he needs to gather the humility it will take to resolve all these issues fast. If he were to take a knee tomorrow during both services. Look out on the crowd and say I have sinned I have made many mistakes we as the administration will make it right. It would put a lot of this to rest. His self-serving prideful sermons will not.
Man, y'all folks stay up to late for this little grey duck! :) Let me see if I can find something say worthwhile today.
Moveon, THANK YOU for you apology yesterday. Doesn't it take a load off your shoulders to prove some "rumors" as truth?
Proverbs, God Bless You for your courage! Tell your hubby it's worth a little bit of anger to actually be right and get the truth out in the open.
Smiles, everyone, Smiles! Karen
Karen,
Sounds like you've just caught up in the blog.
Do you think if would be a good idea for someone to recap?
Just the facts type of material.
No commentary.
There has been so much discussion and fussing that it's hard to keep up and keep focused.
What are your thoughts on this?
Andrew
andrew,
I think I've got the jist of things. The thing that thrils me is that there are so many new posters and all of them have credible information and very astute observations.
Tim, you US/THEM post: Classic!
Andrew: I've been looking at all the posts from last night and I think I've got it - was there something specfic you felt I needed to go back to. I read your response to me regarding the cheerleading ticket thing - sounds reasonable. Thanks!
What I do need to know is this: Is there anything planned for the deacons to be presented to the church? I assume not, but just wanted to check. What is the next step for us rabble rowzers anyway?
Andrew, if you'd like to email me, ask NASS. I need to put NASS on my payroll! Lots of emails forwarded to me through NASS. (NASS, trying to keep your gender a secret!) :)
Also, again moveon - no hard feelings about your previous postion that I should leave Bellevue. Praise God for your change of heart.
JU: I agree with some of what you posted and disgree greatly with some as well.
I do not agree at all on your comment regarding Brother Steve and his sermons. Should he stop preaching God's Word? These sermons you are referring to have been planned for months and months. He did not just "make them up". He did not alter his schedule. Many have been planned before any of this stuff. I applaud Brother Steve for preaching God's Word. I even go farther to the other side. I think he has actually appologized at times when I did not feel it was needed. Like he was scared to hurt someones feelings or step on toes during this time. I am no way saying he should try and hurt someone or step on toes on purpose. the Word of God convicts and some to not react well to that.
What do you think he should preach? Should he forget about what God laid on his heart months ago to preach and change his sermons and make them "feel good" fluff sermons? make them what people want to hear? Make sure they make people "feel good" when they leave?
Dr. Rogers never did that, why should Brother Steve or any other pastor that is preaching the Word of God? We are not suppose to walk out laughing everyday. We need to be convicted.
You describe his sermons as prideful and self-serving. Please explain why. Are they based on scripture or are they not? And again, what would you like for him to preach?
Good afternoon hisservant,
Seems like a rough night for you? :) Are you going to answer SW&W questions regarding Steve Gaines giving $25,000 to the downtown Memphis Methodist church?
Just wondering....
Karen
PS: If you already did this could you repost your answer; I've had a lot of catch up to do since I last read the blog. Thanks!
Either I'm more perceptive than the average person or something is amiss. Are you telling me that the sermons just before all this broke on the news and right after did not seem self-serving to you? Yes he followed his planned series of sermons. However, at many points in the sermons he found ways to take them in directions that absolutely were meant to make people that were questioning what was happening in the church stop. Maybe, it is just more evident to someone who was actively paying attention at the time to exactly what and how his sermons were delivered more than what the content of the sermon was. And before anybody tears into me about not paying attention to the sermon content let me say I was questioning his integrity. Listening to him preach I attempted to hear the word of god but time and again what I found were prideful and self-serving references to scripture designed to quell the uprising we are experiencing now. Rather than humility and reconciliation.
stillwaitingandwatching said...
By George, I think I've got it.....
“his007 and Cary won't answer the $25,000 question because it just came out and the deacons, staff, committees, janitors, and church mice haven't gotten their talking points on this issue yet.
Scuze me SW&W! Churchmice do not use talking points. They seek and squeak the truth !
It appears "mkw" has deleted all her comments in this thread, thus leaving everybody's comments responding to hers just dangling. I don't mean to single her out because others have done the same thing, but it's difficult to follow a discussion when people do this. Wouldn't it be better to thoroughly think through what you've written before hitting "Send" so there aren't any regrets later?
I would suggest quoting relevant parts of any comment to which you're responding so that if the author deletes the original later, at least the quote will be left to keep your comments in context.
NBBCOF
She probably realized that the mailing that most of us received yesterday says not to post on this or any blog concerning the church or these issues. Also I think someone outted her by name so probably not a bad idea to delete that post as well if she doesn't wish to be on the blog.
ju,
FYI, MKW never was anonymous. She chose to reveal herself from the beginning.
Like I did! :)
Karen Turk Marshall
still waiting for the ominous knock on my door from the "BBC God Squad" since they know my name. :)
Hisservant,
First, I'm still very curious about your ID. I don't seen any political safety you're afforded from keeping it secret, so I truly don't get the motivation. Again, it would probably help us a tad in understanding you becasue we wouldn't be trying to figure out your angle (not that it's a malevolent one).
But anyway, an example regarding self-serving sermons:
“The Danger of a Fault-Finding Spirit”
Matthew 7:1-5
October 8, 2006 (PM Service)
1. A Fault-Finding Spirit Invites Similar Criticism
2. A Fault-Finding Spirit Overlooks Personal Hypocrisy
3. A Fault-Finding Spirit Leads to Unreasonable Accusations
4. A Fault-Finding Spirit Demands Immediate Repentance
"JU said...
Either I'm more perceptive than the average person or something is amiss."
You are correct - someone would have to deaf and blind and cold to have missed his pointed comments. JU you are right on.
Andrew
Thank you custos. There are many many examples but I don't have the time to search them out.
PS That outline sounds just like what people are firing at us on this board. Talk about talking points.
hisservant wrote:
These sermons you are referring to have been planned for months and months.
5:11 PM, November 18, 2006
Reply:
How do you know that these sermons were planned months in advance? I don't doubt that he does plan sermons months in advance. But how do you know THESE sermons weren't recent additions? Or even if they were originally planned months in advance, how do you know he didn't change them or update them so he could send the message he wanted to send about the recent matters? In other words, maybe these sermons started out as planned sermons months ago but they morphed into self-serving sermons as the occasion called for them.
I know you will accuse me of slander, libel, anger, hate... I'm doing none of these things. I just want to ask you a few questions without you being angry at me, not that that's going to stop me.
Also, I would really like to know how you would personally know about his sermons. Are you just guessing? Are you a deacon or on his staff so that you know about this intimately? Most of us can't affirm how his sermons are planned with such conviction as you do since most of us aren't deacons or insiders. See, you keep giving yourself away.
A.
Hisservant,
Any response to the $25k question?
Are you ok with this dispersement?
It is true. Did you have time to check it out for yourself yet?
Andrew
You have the right to your view. I just simply disagree and that is fine. The service and sermons and music etc, should not ever be about us, they should be about Christ and Him alone.
Karen: Last night was no big deal. Just a little shocked. Tim took things to a level they should never be taken to on here. It was very different than issues I have had with you or any others on here. He made it as personal and hurtful and hate filled as possible. His posts and his attitude really hurt the Christian witness and any of you on that side of the issues. I was just shocked. No big deal.
As for the question. I answered the only way I could. That is one thing I have no idea about. That is as honest as I can be. I am trying to find out and that is all I can do. Sorry I can not be more help right now.
Thanks!
Hisservant said: “I do not agree at all on your comment regarding Brother Steve and his sermons. Should he stop preaching God's Word? These sermons you are referring to have been planned for months and months. He did not just "make them up". He did not alter his schedule. Many have been planned before any of this stuff. I applaud Brother Steve for preaching God's Word. I even go farther to the other side. I think he has actually appologized (sic) at times when I did not feel it was needed. Like he was scared to hurt someones (sic) feelings or step on toes during this time. I am no way saying he should try and hurt someone or step on toes on purpose. The Word of God convicts and some to not react well to that.
What do you think he should preach? Should he forget about what God laid on his heart months ago to preach and change his sermons and make them "feel good" fluff sermons?”
May I kindly remind ‘hisservant’ that Bro. Steve in his address to the church in Union City mention that he wasn’t expecting to be in the pulpit September 24th because of a commitment to his former church in Jackson, TN. He stated to the Union City audience that he felt that under the circumstances that he was needed at Bellevue on the 24th.
Please explain to us how the ‘self-serving’ message that Bro. Steve delivered the evening of the 24th was “planned for months and months” as you stated if he hadn’t planned on being in the pulpit. Me thinks that you make many assumptions of which you have no personal knowledge. Would this be the proverbial “kettle calling the pot black”?
WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING
May I have the privilege of going with you to speak to this minister in love.
Your words grieve me deeply and I want to stand in humility and integrity with you.
May we go see him together?
Andrew
What is going on???? How much longer can we take this???
Sister Pam, I am at a loss for words. I feel your pain and I want to cry over how you were treated. I will pray for you. I am so sorry for you.
We love you in Christ,
A.
Hisservant, NOW I'm mad.
The way Sister Pam was treated is what is truely INEXCUSABLE.
I'm not mad at you, though. But I am angry now. I'll get over the anger soon but the hurt will take longer.
Have fun making excuses for the way Sister Pam was treated.
A.
i will make no excuses for anything, because I was not there. I was not on the phone.
i will simply tell you that Minister Long would be last Minister I would expect to hear that "yelled" at someone. he is a great man of God and a true man of integrity. I have never even heard the man raise his voice, little own yell.
I am not saying it did not happen. I am not saying it happened. I am not making an excuse about anything.
I am simply saying that I cannot automatically take anything I read on this blog and other places as fact. I read post after post that is just not true. post after post with incorrect info, twisted info, etc etc etc.
I am sorry that Pam and others are struggling so bad. I pray that they will find comfort in the Lord.
I poseted this over at "Message to the COngregation as well:
Mrs. Gremillion,
God Bless Your sweet heart! I am so sorry that happened to you. Please know you are in my prayers. Doyal Long had no call to treat you in that manner - the flesh side of me wants to go upside his head with a bat - but alas, I cannot. I cannot understand under what jurisdiction of God or Bellevue Baptist Church that would allow a minister to speak to a church member in this fashion. Something has to be done - by other than my above suggestion - does anyone have a cooler headed idea?
Karen
hisservant: Do you have an answer on how this minister should be counseled? Isn't Doyal Long on Pastoral Care? I think he'd have a softer spirit when dealing with people, don't you?
hisservant said
I am not saying it did not happen. I am not saying it happened. I am not making an excuse about anything.
Reply
Yeah, I know. But at the same time, I'm not ready to call Sister Pam a liar. And no, I'm saying that you're calling her a liar either.
i will simply tell you that Minister Long would be last Minister I would expect to hear that "yelled" at someone. he is a great man of God and a true man of integrity. I have never even heard the man raise his voice, little own yell.
I do understand that if this were true, it would be out of character for some of our deacons/ministers. Perhaps they are just as torn and some don't want to face what's becoming too real. Maybe this minister is struggling between his heart and his head.
I know that others still believe SG is right and they don't like it when someone so much as says "boo" against him.
Either way, I know neither of us was there, but again, I'm not ready to call Sister Pam a liar.
A.
HisServant said...
i will make no excuses for anything, because I was not there. I was not on the phone.
i will simply tell you that Minister Long would be last Minister I would expect to hear that "yelled" at someone. he is a great man of God and a true man of integrity. I have never even heard the man raise his voice, little own yell.
I am not saying it did not happen. I am not saying it happened. I am not making an excuse about anything.
Sounds to me as though you are attempting to excuse rude and bad behavor,and at the same time deny it happened. I find it interesting how you go out of your way to find excuses for the leadership of this church whwnever they mistreat one of the flock, then you avoid answering direct questions such as the $25000 to FUMC , which by the way we are still waiting for a response
hisservant said...
"I am sorry that Pam and others are struggling so bad. I pray that they will find comfort in the Lord."
Sir, I see and appreciate your compassion, but I ask you to please encourage everyone you know at the church to be gentle with the sheep. Please exercise whatever influence you have to put a stop to any kind of attack on the sheep.
And for the record, I tend to take people at their word. But I do subscribe to Reagan's mantra, “Trust, but verify”. I think that is what much of this dialog is all about.
I want to trust the leadership of the church, but through poor or non-existent communication, “mistakes of the head”, words of attack or humiliation and demonstrated values and convictions that differ from mine, I am having difficulty in regaining my trust and confidence in the genuine health of our church structure and leadership.
I want so much for all of this to just go away – but this is the real world and Satan is alive and well within our church because we allow his influence and control when we take him in with us. We must live pure, holy, surrendered lives. This indeed is not a game and we must not lose heart. I will continue to stand until Jesus takes me home or leads me somewhere else.
Stand with me sir. Let's live for Jesus, keep our eyes on Him, love one another, and work gently towards reconciliation. May I count on you brother?
With great love to you sir,
Andrew
With respect to the $25k for FUMC...
If so do we know who approved it?
What day was the check cut?
Why was the donation given?
Did the responsible party have no idea what that church teaches? Do we cut $25,000 checks without any knowledge like this often?
I spoke to a former GUMC member again today and learned that FUMC's Pastor Wagley has been on the local tv news advocating for gay Clergy in the Methodist church. I got a second source to confirm she refused to remove a Sunday school teacher for teaching the resurrection was a metaphor and did not actually happen. We gave this church money.
So, was it a committee or just one person authorizing the donation to FUMC?
Have we given any checks to other churches or ministries that teach bad doctrine?
How much of the BBC tithes are going to organizations that deny essential Christian doctrine?
Was this just an isolated mistake? If so what policy will be put in place to prevent a repeat?
Does hisservant even have an opinion on whether donations of this type are proper? Does he support the use of his tithe going to a church that believes we should have gay, lesbian and transgender pastors? Apparently he does because he won't say the donation was wrong.
These questions deserve answers. How can people in good faith offer tithes that are redirected to non Biblical recipients?
Is there no one willing to step forward, take responsibility and explain what in the world is going on? At first I had mixed emotions about this. As I learn FUMC has insurance and meditate on exactly what has occured and exactly who we are subsidizing and what they are teaching... well, I just can't support it under any circumstance. Let the Methodidts rebuild their heretical churches themselves. We should seek an explanation and a policy to prevent a repeat.
Who else have we given money to?
dadoffour
hisservant stated just a little bit ago that he does not have any confirmation that the 25k check happened.
His answer as follows:
"As for the question. I answered the only way I could. That is one thing I have no idea about. That is as honest as I can be. I am trying to find out and that is all I can do. Sorry I can not be more help right now."
Andrew
hisservant stated just a little bit ago that he does not have any confirmation that the 25k check happened.
Well, can anyone confirm that there actually was a $25k donation for FUMC. Andrew can you find out via your contacts?
BUT
hisservant,
I too would like to know if you would approve of the check if it did happen.
I'm looking for "verification" here.
Still loving you,
Andrew
Sister Pam,
I believe that you were treated rudely by the "LOVEING AND CARING" minister.Let us all not forget that the answer to all inquires about the church leadership is "leave if you don't like it". This is not the first time that members of the leadership and ministry have verbally abused those who question them.
This was left at the end of an old thread today. I'm reposting here because it's unlikely many would see it there.
TrueBlue said...
I hope people are paying attention the the questions posed by UTURN, because he is right on target. I am a former Bellevue employee, and UTURN seems to have "insider" information.
For instance, the staff all knew about the bad blood between Mark Dougharty and Craig Parker. Therefore, let's apply a little logic to Parker's departure.
1. Parker was a Bellevue member for 25 years.
2. Parker was a Bellevue employee for 14 years.
3. Parker took a significant pay cut when he went to a new church.
Does it seem reasonable that he wanted to leave Bellevue?
Second, all of the staff knows that Chip and Misty Freeman were friends of Mark and Lydia Sharpe up until a few months ago. It was no secret that the Freeman family regularly visited the Sharpe home to swim. For Freeman to deny his relationship with Sharpe is ludicrous.
9:42 AM, November 18, 2006
If I remember correctly.. another female member had a similar story several weeks ago. Maybe these ladies should have a male present so they can't be bullied and left in tears.
This is the very reason alot of people have given up on the administrations attempt to answer questions. Ask and ye shall receive alright.... a verbal beating.
bin wonderin
As Dr. Rogers used to say, "I know, that I know, that I know."
It is confirmed, the check has already been delivered. I'm not comfortable revealing the source.
Check with people in the finance office, or simply ask Steve Gaines tomorrow morning.
You may want to ask him just to see the look on his face.
And again for the record I loudly say it was wrong. It pains me to say but it was done in an effort to reach out to our community. And if we don't stand up now, this kind of thing will continue. Seek to find the common denominators in so many of our frustrations and you will understand.
Andrew
I posted this in another topic but since this one seems to be more active at the moment:
I love it how all the ministers and staff are always attacking other people yet there is no concrete evidence supporting it.
Give us some proof, folks. I can easily make up some shocking stories about Bellevue ministers and post them.
I'm not saying your story is not true, I'm just saying it's not credible unless you present FACTS.
As Dr. Rogers used to say, "I know, that I know, that I know."
It is confirmed, the check has already been delivered. I'm not comfortable revealing the source.
Thanks Andrew. I don't need a source, just wanted to make sure this was not another rumor. It is really bothering me after talking to my friends that are former and current GUMC members where Rev. Wagley used to serve. It would bother even worse if it happened again.
Ace,
I would respect your post more if you held the other side to the same standard. This became public in August and we have not seen any facts to this day. The deacons cannot agree on anything. The story changes every day. All we have from them is "trust us." Because of the way they have acted, I can't do that.
There is a lot that has been hidden from our church members. The truth is slowly coming out and many of us are hurt and even angry.
You may need facts from Sister Pam. I don't. I see more authentic pain in her writing than anything the defenders of the leaders have written. They just repeat the same thing over and over again.
You have the right to support the pastor and say so. PLease be careful attacking a saint like Sister Pam.
Proverbs,
Did you read my post? Could you please let me there where I attacked Pam? I didn't say her phone call was false, I just said there isn't evidence to support it so don't take it like it's Scripture. That's not attacking anyone.
I believe you people have many facts from the other side, you just choose to reject them...and there's nothing I can do if that's what you do.
I love it how all the ministers and staff are always attacking other people yet there is no concrete evidence supporting it.
Give us some proof, folks. I can easily make up some shocking stories about Bellevue ministers and post them.
1. Have you seen the Weatherwax letters to Josh?
2. Have you seen the letters where the deacons threatened lawsuits against members for asking questions?
3. have you heard Dr. Gaines mock his flock in the Union City tape?
Those were not made up.
Memo to lurkers: - "dont mock the flock" is a pretty good blogger name.
dadoffour posted: Sounds to me as though you are attempting to excuse rude and bad behavor,and at the same time deny it happened. I find it interesting how you go out of your way to find excuses for the leadership of this church whwnever they mistreat one of the flock, then you avoid answering direct questions such as the $25000 to FUMC , which by the way we are still waiting for a response
REPLY: what is the deal? can you not read my posts for some reason?? I have said over and over that I have no clue about the $25,000 deal. NONE. what is so hard about that? I have addressed every question that has been asked of me on this board and away from it. That does not mean you will like my response, but I have given one. I have said over and over that I will not comment on the $25,000 until I know the facts. I am not careless like many on this blog are. I do not get on here or anywhere else and claim to know something if I do not. I do not get on here and post "questions" that have NOTHING to back them up. All those questions do is put more and more doubt there for no reason. Every "rumor" posted does harm. I read every day posts on "rumors" that have been proven to be 100% false, but some are still stuck on them. the fact is many of your minds are made up and NOTHING will change them. nothing. Some could go to the credit card company corporate office and see their records and some would still some way some how find a way to still have a question or an issue.
We seem to never get down to the real issues, because we cannot even see them through all the rumors and junk posted.
You are guilty of putting words in my mouth. this is what I am talking about. YOU do not know what was said by Mr. Long or anyone else. I do not either. I say that I cannot really comment because I do not know the facts and I was not on the phone. You and others LOVE to comment like you were on the phone. You and others love to comment on anything. It seems many just sit by waiting on the next opportunity to hear a new juicy rumor or a new piece of gossip. You will automatically take the word of someone posting on here over a Minister. No matter what. You jump at the chance of finding a new possible fault and wrong doing by someone at Bellevue. All that does is further help your "agenda". All that does is help prove your "conspiracies".
Again, I have no clue what happened on that phone, but you will not find me bashing Minister Long with no facts.
It is funny that it seems everything that is even said by anyone at Bellevue is a lie, but everything said by someone on this blog is the gospel truth. I do not buy into that one bit.
I have seen many posts full of venom, rumor, libel etc on this blog from some and then those same people want me and others to believe every word they say. Those same people want me and others to believe they are sincere and want true reconciliation. From what I have seen, there are some that do not ever want reconciliation.
Ace,
Attack may have been too strong of a word. The point remains, you don't hold the other side to the same standard. Sister Pam has established her credibility over a period of time. You all but said you don't believe her because she didn't have proof.
From now on we will remember to tape record our phone conversations with the church. Maybe I should carry a small recorder to church tomorrow in case I run into Doyal Long. Maybe I can catch him in a lie. On second thought, I chose to believe Sister Pam.
Your "you people" is telling. You are obviously on the other side. You are far from objective in this matter.
bin wondering said:
1. Have you seen the Weatherwax letters to Josh?
Yes. Perhaps Phil was a little wrong in the tone he used, but again, are ministers perfect? Is anyone besides Jesus perfect? We all make mistakes...but that's the beauty of forgiveness. Maybe you should forgive Phil for his comments if you disagree with them.
2. Have you seen the letters where the deacons threatened lawsuits against members for asking questions?
Are you a deacon? Did you see the types of emails they were receiving? How would you like it if you email address was posted on a site where (possibly) thousands visted and they are urging to you flood your inbox with messages? There is a difference between asking legitimate questions and attacking someone (AKA Harrasing)
3. have you heard Dr. Gaines mock his flock in the Union City tape?
Yes, I heard the tape, but everything he said in it was true...you can't deny that.
Memo to lurkers: - "dont mock the flock" is a pretty good blogger name.
Oh, so because I disagree with the majority of the people here, it makes me a lurker? I see - so that's how you guys roll here... That's nice.
Ace,
Ask anyone who attends Steve Marcum's Sunday School class - Steve asked his SS Class last Sunday to pray for him and Phil Weatherwax as they were going downtown to deliver a check the Methodist church downtown.
I personally cannot verify the amount of the check, but if you'll go over to the Love Offering thread I believe you will find all the facts you require.
Sister Pam,
Looks like you'll have to record all your subsequent telephone calls to ministers of Bellevue, then hire a voice authenticator and so on and so and so on....
Ace, What I want to know is why you question a woman who has been nothing but saintly in her quest for truth (see all her letters at savingbellevue.com) yet you're more than willing to swallow all actions, good and bad, without question, of the leadership of BBC.
insert standard caveat here: I am not sladering, lying, libeling, or full of hate or not being Christ-like. I'm just asking.
I want reconciliation with all my heart. I do not want it with the pastor. I believe he must resign. He should have listened to Dr. Rogers a year ago and stepped down. Instead he has taken us to this dark place.
Why will you not admit you are a deacon? Maybe you are just some foolish teenager.
The donation to the Methodist church happened. You can take it to the bank.
proverbs,
we're on the same wavelength! :)
Memo to lurkers: - "dont mock the flock" is a pretty good blogger name.
Oh, so because I disagree with the majority of the people here, it makes me a lurker? I see - so that's how you guys roll here... That's nice.
Mike - that was a comment directed to people that read but don't post. They are known as lurkers. Since you have your own blog I'm pretty sure you know what a lurker is. I was telling them if they decide to post that "don't mock the flock" was a catchy name. Why are you posting under a false name when you have always been so proud of posting under your real name?
Proverbs,
From now on we will remember to tape record our phone onversations with the church. Maybe I should carry a small recorder to church tomorrow in case I run into Doyal Long.
Do whatever you please. If that's what it takes to prove ministers are constantly attacking people, then do it. Just a friendly suggestion, before you record someone make sure that they know it. Otherwise that would be illegal.
. On second thought, I chose to believe Sister Pam.
Again - do as you please. That's perfectly acceptable to me.
Karen,
If all the men would stand up and be men, this would not be happening. My husband agrees with everything I say yet he is afraid of making waves. I'm tired of it. I want Bellevue back. I miss Dr. Rogers terribly. I can't imagine how he must have felt the last weeks of his life. Can you imagine if he were alive to witness this? If he were still here, he could have stepped in and ended it in one meeting. These guys are scared to have a meeting. Why we aren't demanding one I will never understand.
I love you, Karen. You are brave. Please do not stop speaking your mind.
Karen,
Ask anyone who attends Steve Marcum's Sunday School class - Steve asked his SS Class last Sunday to pray for him and Phil Weatherwax as they were going downtown to deliver a check the Methodist church downtown.
I never mentioned anything about a check, so I don't know why you told me this?
Ace, What I want to know is why you question a woman who has been nothing but saintly in her quest for truth (see all her letters at savingbellevue.com) yet you're more than willing to swallow all actions, good and bad, without question, of the leadership of BBC.
Who says I swallow ALL actions of BBC? Believe it or not, I actually disagree with the way Bellevue does some things and I've thought this way since way before Dr. Gaines came. I believe that most of the accusations being posted is nothing but nonesense and people who are posting it, once again, don't have the facts.
proverbs, if you know me please come up and let me know on Sunday. We can share the secret handshake! Love you! Karen
Bin wonderin,
Mike - that was a comment directed to people that read but don't post. They are known as lurkers.
My bad, I was confusing that term with trolls, etc.
Why are you posting under a false name when you have always been so proud of posting under your real name?
Maybe because I'm not Mike? Again, I think you owe someone an apology...
hisservant said
"You will automatically take the word of someone posting on here over a Minister"
Well ,well, now we know where you stand.Lets follow your thoughts to it's logical conclusion.Steve Gaines word is more credible than the any of the flock.By the way are you a deacon or on the staff of Bellevue? I really need to know.Because if you are ,I will know better than to question your words as they will then become more credible than the rest of us.
Using a little golf lingo
I guess that we could say that you believe Ministers have a Holy Handicap over the rest of us.
Andrew: I like reading your posts and respect them. In one of your last posts you ended with "Let's live for Jesus, Keep our eyes on Him".
I truly do not feel many eyes can be on Jesus when I read the HORRIBLE stuff on this blog. I have heard all the excuses and "reasons". there is no excuse for this stuff. it amazes me that some can some how try and justify their actions. a HUGE % of the posts on this blog are done 100% in the flesh.
How can one post what has been posted on here and at the same time have their eyes on Jesus???? I would love an answer to that. Not an excuse, but a real answer.
here is my second statement/question. IF we are truly Christians that are dead to self and dead to our flesh how we justify this blog?? how? if we are dead to self and dead to our flesh, we have NO rights. we have nothing. nothing is ours. Jesus bought everything with what He did on that Cross. everything. our emotions, rights, feelings, thoughts, etc etc etc etc etc are His, not ours. I posted this several times with not one person responding to it. It is quite evident why.
maybe we should pool our funds and hire hmmm... Magnum P.I.
Ace,
This is a small issue, but it is not illegal to record a phone call in Tennessee as long as one of the two parties gives consent.
Ace said:
"Karen,
Ask anyone who attends Steve Marcum's Sunday School class - Steve asked his SS Class last Sunday to pray for him and Phil Weatherwax as they were going downtown to deliver a check the Methodist church downtown.
I never mentioned anything about a check, so I don't know why you told me this?"
Ace!
This was my bad - I thought you posted something about needing proof there was a check given. OOPSIE! Sorry!
Ace,
Scary we used the same term - my bad! - that's funny. I didn't even read you last post as I was posting to you at the time. Jinx!
Karen (finding humor in the little things! - feeling the effects of that red kool-aid!)
karen: but I guess you think Dr. Rogers would agree with this hate filled blog and what you others have said? you might be right, this might not have ever happened with him alive and at Bellevue. For more reasons than one.
westtn,
This is a small issue, but it is not illegal to record a phone call in Tennessee as long as one of the two parties gives consent.
I stand corrected then...even though I have always thought it was true? The person on the other side of the line has to know that they are being recorded. Is that not true?
Karen,
No problem, I understand. :-)
hisservant,
It was proverbs that made that comment, but I'll answer anyway. I truly believe that God took Dr. Rogers home early so this mess would not be his final "legacy". See, if he would have ousted Steve Gaines before he died, that incident may have been the one thing the outside would would have remembered about our great former pastor.
As a side note, on cafekudzu.com, there are postings there from Gardendale members. One had an interesting "food for thought": In essence it says it took 10 years for Steve Gaines to gain as much power at Gardendale as it did in 1 year at Bellevue. Just something to chew on and ponder. I'm not starting a rumor - I didn't write and I didn't respond to it, just brought up some interesting thoughts.
hisservant wrote:
"You and others LOVE to comment like you were on the phone. You and others love to comment on anything. It seems many just sit by waiting on the next opportunity to hear a new juicy rumor or a new piece of gossip. You will automatically take the word of someone posting on here over a Minister. No matter what. You jump at the chance of finding a new possible fault and wrong doing by someone at Bellevue. All that does is further help your 'agenda'. All that does is help prove your 'conspiracies'.
"The usual stuff... blah blah blah... "
Hi, Mr. Deacon! Welcome back! I see you found your "Shift" key(s) today. By the way, are you a deacon officer or are you just an enlisted deacon? I must have missed your answer, so would you mind repeating it?
Thanks, Mr. Deacon!
NASS
phil413,
I agree with you - I'd hate to see Ted Minor's credibility questioned.
I think andrew's account yesterday of the credit card infractions posted on SB shed some greater more truthful light on the matter - still not sure I believe it (the account). I believe andrew belives what he said to be fact - not bashing andrew.
Karen
hisservant..
Please refrain from using Dr. Rogers.
That is just irritating and disrespectful to his family.
You have no idea what he would think..
stopbeatingthesheep posted: Well ,well, now we know where you stand.Lets follow your thoughts to it's logical conclusion.Steve Gaines word is more credible than the any of the flock.By the way are you a deacon or on the staff of Bellevue? I really need to know.Because if you are ,I will know better than to question your words as they will then become more credible than the rest of us.
Using a little golf lingo
I guess that we could say that you believe Ministers have a Holy Handicap over the rest of us.
REPLY: a logical conclusion?? that is the problem. you and others think you know other people and their hearts. news flash!! you don't. I have never ever said that a Minister's words should never be questioned, but thanks for putting words in my mouth. this blog is just like politics. do anything you can to further your "cause". try actually reading my post again without reading into every word. i did not say any of this things you just said i did. see how it works. do you think this has also happened 1000000000 times on both sides?? I say yes, because it is always 100th hand knowledge. this is why gossip and rumors are so bad.
say Bellevue decided to do this 7000+ person "business meeting" many are wanting. you and others already have your mind made up on many issues. it would not matter what was said. you have already based your opinion on 100th hand knowledge.
your entire post above is not true. it is speculation on what you "think" I think and what you "think" I meant. you and others have to make up things and put words in my mouth and others to get your points across and further your "agenda" and that is sad.
try dealing in facts for once. you might see things in a whole new light.
Ace,
That is the law in some states, but not most. Roughly 40 states require only one party notification.
By the way, I am not suggesting anyone record any phone calls, particularly with the church. I was "mostly lurkin" catching up on the blog and decided to correct the record.
pedwesttn,
Thanks for the correction then...I appreciate it!
isawit posted: hisservant..
Please refrain from using Dr. Rogers.
That is just irritating and disrespectful to his family.
You have no idea what he would think..
REPLY: what are you talking about? please explain
IF we are truly Christians that are dead to self and dead to our flesh how we justify this blog?? how? if we are dead to self and dead to our flesh, we have NO rights. we have nothing. nothing is ours. Jesus bought everything with what He did on that Cross. everything. our emotions, rights, feelings, thoughts, etc etc etc etc etc are His, not ours. I posted this several times with not one person responding to it. It is quite evident why.
hiservant,
God gave us free will - just a thought
phil413: thanks for your posts. I do not mean for my posts to be one sided. the fact is, many are on one side of the issues and some on the other.
Karen: and what is your point on free will? so you are saying we should not be dead people walking and we do have the "right" to things as Christians?
his servant
What kind of a minister comes in the midst of the aching flock incognito? With an alias? With words hidden behind a Mask?
If you are a minister and you have come here to help with reconcilation, you sir are a pitiful example of a minister.
If in fact you are a deacon and fear retaliation, from whom do you fear it? The flock?
If you are a deacon fearful of the flock, you sir are a pitiful excuse for a deacon.
If you have come here to bring answers, you have no credibilty unless you reveal your identity, therefore sir, you are a pitiful example of a church liason.
If the Bellevue hiarchly has sent you here to do their bidding, they sir are a pitiful excuse for leadership.
If you are giving the impression, as you are, that you are the church`s answer man and you are just part of the flock, you sir are a pitiful excuse for an answer man.
If you are someone outside of the church and you have given the impression to be part of the Bellevue family, which you have, then you sir are a pitiful person who needs help.
Come out from behind your mask if you are here on behalf of Bellevue and have any respect for these people.
The Sword of Truth has fallen, let it cut to the very marrow of the church.
ignore what I have posted and attack me again. sounds good. thanks and have a great night
My evening commentary...
The time of “Pastor led, deacon served, committee run and congregationally approved” is over. There simply is no longer enough evidence to validate it's existence. The model may be sound in principle but it is obviously not working now. I will leave the “why” to the past as we move forward.
The model was accepted by most. Until, the pastor became verbally aggressive and belittling (from the pulpit no less), and the deacons failed to demonstrate conviction and strength to act, and the committees were seen to be steered and manned by only a few in rotating and significant positions, and the congregation realized it's impotence and unimportance.
Further, poor decisions have been made and continue to be made; hurtful statements have been made and continue to be made; communication from the church is often not believed and in part because it has been one sided, slow, arrogant and murky.
The People have had little to do with starting or creating any of the problems that we are currently facing. They are merely reacting to them and doing their best to sort out the facts from fiction and respond scriptually.
The people are finding out about how things work, how money is being spent and who is really in charge and they are deciding that they don't agree with it. The errors have been many and significant, and there is logically no end in sight.
The People have moved past the time when they will sit quietly or applaud in unison.
The People have moved past the time when they will give without consideration.
The People have moved past the time when they will vote in unison.
The People are standing but they are not applauding; they are asking, evaluating, discussing, proving.
The People want to know what's going on, they want to be included in decisions that involve finances, personnel, and the way the organization runs.
The people are involved, vocal, convictional, and eager to see things set right again.
The People are eager to see change for the better.
Perhaps the old model worked well before – but welcome to a new era.
Steve, if you are going to pull this out of the ditch you must immediately put all your effort in being right before God, and His people. Prove nothing but your love for Jesus and His People. Walk in humility with them, surround yourself with lowly, humble people who will love you, nurture you, council with you and hold you accountable. Steve, you can do this. You and Jesus have what it takes. Lead us we are ready.
Your brother, Andrew.
Andrew: I like reading your posts and respect them. In one of your last posts you ended with "Let's live for Jesus, Keep our eyes on Him".
I truly do not feel many eyes can be on Jesus when I read the HORRIBLE stuff on this blog. I have heard all the excuses and "reasons". there is no excuse for this stuff. it amazes me that some can some how try and justify their actions. a HUGE % of the posts on this blog are done 100% in the flesh.
How can one post what has been posted on here and at the same time have their eyes on Jesus???? I would love an answer to that. Not an excuse, but a real answer.
here is my second statement/question. IF we are truly Christians that are dead to self and dead to our flesh how we justify this blog?? how? if we are dead to self and dead to our flesh, we have NO rights. we have nothing. nothing is ours. Jesus bought everything with what He did on that Cross. everything. our emotions, rights, feelings, thoughts, etc etc etc etc etc are His, not ours. I posted this several times with not one person responding to it. It is quite evident why
the staff is very big and I have no reason to doubt what you posted
phil413,
I hope that you viewed my comment concerning your friends parable as it was intended. You are a wonderful person that I think the world of and I would hate to think that I may have done something to offend you.
phil413 said...
Swordoftruth,
Why don't we all come out from behind our masks.
I wear a mask for the very same reason the deacons who oppose PASTOR STEVE GAINES`S COMMANDEMENTS wear one.
DO OR DIE is the call of day but I do not choose to DIE unless it is upon the SWORD OF TRUTH.
A mask is quite a pathetic neccessity for now and even this should tell the story of how far Bellevue had fallen.
Hisservant,
Romans 16:17-18
17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
We are told to "Mark Them" and God has "Judged Them" and told us how to "Identify Them." This indeed is a double edged sword and can only be swung, when interpreted correctly. The key word in this passage is "cause". "Cause divisions". Where is the cause of these divisions? Have I caused these divisions by pointing them out? Has this blog caused them? No, to me it is plain where the cause lies and I have marked them.
Paul "marked" men in his epistles. I am surprised that you as one is aware of all of the issues at Bellevue Baptist Churh are not aware of the scripture that commands us to inform one another of those that practice deceit.
Has this given you the answer that you are so desperately searching for as to why this blog exist.
Nice commentary Andrew. Maybe I am just wishing, but I still think a heartfelt admission that mistakes were made, an apology by Dr. Gaines and others with changes in policy and church governance could solve these problems. We feel arrogance from the leaders, we see former staff has been mistreated, we don't feel like we have a say in anything, and the things we hear about cheerleader trips and $25k checks to heretical churches are painful us. But still things can be set right.
We need new bylaws, frequent meetings, an opening of the books and policies for review and maybe a little humility from everyone to set things right. More on that tomorrow. Good night.
PS:
How can one post what has been posted on here and at the same time have their eyes on Jesus???? I would love an answer to that. Not an excuse, but a real answer.
When I post about $25k in tithes that was donanted to a church that preaches transgender pastors are okay, I can blog about it and keep my eyes on Jesus.
When I offer suggesstions for questions to determine how this happened, and how we can prevent it from happening again, I can blog about it and keep my eyes on Jesus.
When I post about $1k in tithes that was used to buy plane tickets for a cheerleader tryout, I can blog that this is not a legitimate use of church funds and is not a "moving expense" and keep my eyes on Jesus.
When I comment that the pastor was mocking BBC in Union City and I don't think that is right I can blog about it and keep my eyes on Jesus.
When I comment that the pastor was wrong to try and tick off the search committee on purpose I can blog about it and keep my eyes on Jesus.
When I comment that overcharging members for Holy land trips without their knowledge or consent is wrong, I can blog about it and keep my eyes on Jesus.
I will try to think of some more tomorrow. I am tired. Sorry for any typos made while yawning.
truthhunter: so you disagree that we should be dead people walking as Christians? as a Christian, our rights, emotions, thoughts etc are not ours, but Christ's?? you disagree on that??
and you said we. who else are you speaking for?
Sword of truth! I love it - now, who are you?
You're posts are truly impressive and inspired.
Andrew - did you get my email address from NASS? I truly enjoyed your posts.
David Matlock, Keep fighting with that mask off; roof off/walls down as Nancy Leigh DeMoss would say.
truth hunter - love it when you post. You are so wise.
westtnbarrister - see above comment to truth hunter - ditto!
Karen Turk Marshall
Tim: no where in that verse or in God's Word does it say to do whatever it takes to do those things. that it is ok to slander, spread rumors, spew venom and hate etc etc to accomplish the things you listed.
there are many on this blog that are doing much more than "marking" anything.
slander / spread rumors / spew venom.
Please put down the Communication Committees News Letter, you don't have to read that stuff and be in darkness, read the truths that have been revealed by this blog.
i will not address you any longer Tim. thanks
hisservant said "How can one post what has been posted on here and at the same time have their eyes on Jesus???? I would love an answer to that. Not an excuse, but a real answer."
How could John the Baptist shout from the Jordan, REPENT and BE YE BAPIZED?
His public and open rebuke of the King, cost him his head but it never shut him up just as you will never be able to shut up the REMNANT of Christ who are the ones who will fall on the Sword of Truth even if they bleed to death.
Your limp words and hidden identity will never gain the respect of those who await the truth from Bellevue`s ministers.
I count you a fraud until proof arrives and so should each person who listen to you BOLD but all to empty answers.
You will not quiet the ones that have been called to this place, for this season, for HIS reasons.
If you are a minister at Bellevue or their authorized liason, I bid you to come out from your mask and do your work in the light for the good sake of Christ.
I want to know who you are sir.
Hisservant,
Truth is something that is incredibly difficult to battle isn't it.
Especially when you have no desire to search for it, hear it, or believe it. There are those that choose to walk in darkness and for those I am sad.
Tim: also, I wonder if you will ever say you are sorry for the hate your spewed at me last night. you deleted your posted because you were ashamed of them. not you come one day later with the same attitude. but then at the same time you quote scripture etc. wow
I am now done with addressing you
Hisservant,
Would you please provide evidence of these accussations?
And if it does not exist are you not guilty of lies/slander/gossip.
Have you not just done what you accuse those on this blog of doing with no evidence?
Tim: also, I wonder if you will ever say you are sorry for the hate your spewed at me last night. you deleted your posted because you were ashamed of them. not you come one day later with the same attitude. but then at the same time you quote scripture etc. wow
I am now done with addressing you
HisServant said...
Tim: also, I wonder if you will ever say you are sorry for the hate your spewed at me last night. you deleted your posted because you were ashamed of them. not you come one day later with the same attitude. but then at the same time you quote scripture etc. wow
I am now done with addressing you
I thought you were done when you found out that the NAACP might be coming to see you ( If you do indeed represent Bellevue as you are leading people here to believe but will not unmask yourself to prove it).
I have more respect for Tim
deleting words that must have stung you than those in leadership positions at Bellevue who delete the truth in order to keep themselves pure before ignorant men who follow along blindly and some not so blind at all.
Sir, remove your mask and let these people know if you represent Bellevue with your answers or if you are here to shear the sheep again.
Tim,
How can he present the evidence when you deleted it? If you go to the other topic, there are several people (from BOTH sides) testifying for your actions of deleting the posts.
There is a even a quote from someone where you called hisservant a dope.
Let me ask you this:
DID YOU or did you NOT delete a bunch of your posts last night that were hateful in nature?
I highly suggest you don't lie.
Hisservant,
I think it would humanly impossible for anyone to have a bigger attitude problem than you have exhibited. Just my opinion, but really. Look at what you are doing, your accusations against myself and others on this blog.
Why? Why do you continue to do this and insist that everyone else is wrong?
Answer the question, Tim. Did you or did you not do what hisservant is accusing you of doing?
ace,
Where you there? Did you record the conversation?
Proof, man, proof and now you are guilty of heresay.
You owe Mrs. Gremillon a swift apology, if you are to hold any credibility. You have just done what you accused her of doing.
Presenting as fact what you have no evidence of.
Ace
Your are baiting Tim. Stop it!
If you think what he said is so terrible, then why do you not appreciate that he deleted it and why are you asking him to repeat it?
Have you no shame?????
I dare you to come on this forum defending Phil Weatherwax, who has been openly accused of RACISM, and who sent a devilish letter to Josh Manning, while showing pseudo concern for the word DOPE!
We are in a ROPE A DOPE here with hisservant and apparently you want to enter the ring.
I strongly suggest that you not come here to lay on the ropes for you sir, will certainly be engaged in this round.
DING
tim wrote:
"Hisservant,
"I think it would humanly impossible for anyone to have a bigger attitude problem than you have exhibited. Just my opinion, but really. Look at what you are doing, your accusations against myself and others on this blog.
"Why? Why do you continue to do this and insist that everyone else is wrong?"
"Stevesservantthedeacon" said he was "done" addressing you -- at 11:20 p.m. and again at 11:26.
Tim,
Once again, you dance around the question.
Presenting as fact what you have no evidence of.
Who says I don't have evidence? I ask you again - DID YOU or did you NOT delete posts made by yourself attacking hisservant?
he 100% called me that and spewed hate at me for several posts and that was not the first time. thanks ace and yes, several witnessed it.
swordoftruth: we are ALL accountable for ourselves. Tim spewing hate has nothing to do with anyone or anything else. it seems there are no limits that many of you will go to, to try and justify yourselves.
and I have never one time lead anyone to believe I was on staff at Bellevue or "represented" the church. never.
swordoftruth,
Your are baiting Tim. Stop it!
I want an answer to my question. I am not baiting him. If he didn't do the accused, why is he refraining from answering a simple yes or no question?
If you think what he said is so terrible, then why do you not appreciate that he deleted it and why are you asking him to repeat it?
I'm not asking him to repeat anything, I want to know if these accusations are true, that is all.
I strongly suggest that you not come here to lay on the ropes for you sir, will certainly be engaged in this round.
You have no right to tell me I shouldn't come here for whatever reason. I am a member of Bellevue Baptist Church and I have as much concern for the church as anyone else.
ace: thanks and now you know what we are dealing with. now you are accused of baiting?
swordoftruth: yet again, you bring up someone or something else to try and justify. we are not talking about anyone but Tim and if he made the posts or not.
hisservant said
I have never one time lead anyone to believe I was on staff at Bellevue or "represented" the church. never.
That sir depends on what you definition of IS, IS????
chazzo wrote:
"I didn't know it, but now realize my guilt. I am a "Lurker". Hopefully, there is a 12 step program to help me.
"I haven't posted because I have little to add. I am aBellevue member, just a tithing pew-sitter who is unhappy with the current operation of my church.
"I don't understand the compensation package of our Pastor. Neither do I understand anyone who would 'dangle' it in front of him.
"I don't understand paying guest speakers from the SBC 'good ole boy roation' thousands a night to speak, when we have a staff of ministers who would love to bring a message, but are seldom afforded the opportunity.
"I don't understand paying for Wednesday night preaching when our own pastor is our earning income preaching elsewhere.
"I don't understand, nor like, the way honest men and women are treated when questions are raised.
"I don't appreciate an arrogant Pastor and his inner-circle, who behave like Washington DC wordsmiths.
"Now, I will resume my lurking.
"Oh why oh why do I continue to do that which I hate?"
There, there now. We were all lurkers once! But don't you feel better now that you stepped into the light, even for one brief, and I might add, brilliantly shining moment? Please continue to delurk whenever you feel the urge. You've already taken the first step!
NASS
ace
Don`t delete my words.
I did not tell you not to come here, I said amd O quote "I strongly suggest that you not come here to lay on the ropes"
For someone who wants evidence for everyihing I am surprized that you would overlook the evidence of my post to you.
Duplicity is your middle name unless you change you ways sir.
Tim is under no order to give you anything unless he so desires to. He has never set himself up to represent Bellevue like hisservant has.
Deleteing Post is a polite way of saying I didn`t like what I posted or how it came out or the way it looked.
Why don`t you ask your friend Phil Weatherwax to delete his hatred for Josh Manning and put a holy feather in your cap today sir.
HisServant said...
Andrew: I like reading your posts and respect them. In one of your last posts you ended with "Let's live for Jesus, Keep our eyes on Him".
I truly do not feel many eyes can be on Jesus when I read the HORRIBLE stuff on this blog. I have heard all the excuses and "reasons". there is no excuse for this stuff. it amazes me that some can some how try and justify their actions. a HUGE % of the posts on this blog are done 100% in the flesh.
How can one post what has been posted on here and at the same time have their eyes on Jesus???? I would love an answer to that. Not an excuse, but a real answer.
here is my second statement/question. IF we are truly Christians that are dead to self and dead to our flesh how we justify this blog?? how? if we are dead to self and dead to our flesh, we have NO rights. we have nothing. nothing is ours. Jesus bought everything with what He did on that Cross. everything. our emotions, rights, feelings, thoughts, etc etc etc etc etc are His, not ours. I posted this several times with not one person responding to it. It is quite evident why."
----
Thanks you.
I see entries that sadden and frustrate me too. But I must say just because there is emotion and a leaning into the converstation I would not mandate the fleshly nature.
As to your second question...I'm no scholar but I believe that what many people are doing is standing up for what is right, rather than their own rights.
For example, if someone were upset at me and unloaded I would tend to try to understand where we lost traction and try to get it back.
But, if someone else gets a beating, that is in my estimation undeserved or goes too far... I am compelled to step in. I believe it is right to defuse or defend or something to help the one being pounded on. It's just right, you know. And frankly, I wish we were all more careful with our words and tone.
I for one am not fighting for my rights, and truly, I don't sense any other people coming with that idea. But pride does show up far too often in our comments.
Some people are poor communicators for one reason or another and some are quick tempered. But I think most (not counting the pure trouble makers and they self-identify) are here to figure out what is happening and trying to stand up for it - No matter which "side" their on.
One last thing. There is a difference between an honest question and lobbing out a rumor. And sometimes the difference is in tone and intent. But we all need to be careful becuase serious damage and further dismay can occur when we get gossipy.
Hope your Sunday is full of worship and the Word.
Andrew
swordoftruth,
"Duplicity is your middle name unless you change you ways sir."
First you accuse me of baiting Tim and now you're saying I'm deceitful? Again, you have no right to do that.
Tim is under no order to give you anything unless he so desires to. He has never set himself up to represent Bellevue like hisservant has.
So you guys can harrass hisservant all you want, asking for his identity and I can't ask if Tim deleted some posts of his? Why? That's not fair and that seems kinda hipocritcal to me. Take a look at what you're saying.
Deleteing Post is a polite way of saying I didn`t like what I posted or how it came out or the way it looked.
Is that the only purpose? Or is it to make other people look stupid and foolish at the same time?
Why don`t you ask your friend Phil Weatherwax to delete his hatred for Josh Manning and put a holy feather in your cap today sir.
Before I do that, why don't you delete your hatred towards me?
Ace,
You my friend are creating an excellent object lesson.
Not only are you creating one.
You have stumbled into one.
Over the period of these post. There have been numerous times that I have deleted a post, corrected spelling and reposted.
There have been numerous times that I have deleted a post, that did not convey accurately what I intended that were rephrased and reposted.
There have been times that at the request of others on this blog I have deleted post that may have been perceived as hurtful to others.
May I humbly suggest that you should do the same. Your response to Mrs. Gremillion was reprhensible. It would have only been appropriate had you known that it was not true.
I will once again corroborate that Tim deleted several posts last night in an apparent attempt to make hisservant look foolish. The fact that Tim isn't accepting responsibility for that action and moving on from it damages his credibility. We're all human we all make mistakes. I'm a sinner I sin every day. I can't quote you scripture and verse. I don't go to Wednesday night church. I couldn't find a sunday school class that wasn't just a social event. I'm just a lowly sinner. I will accept that every post that I make on this blog is a sin. I will ask for forgiveness and because I know that I know that I know I will sleep well tonight. People should stop demanding proof for things that can't be provided. Phone calls? Who has proof of your last phone call? The only thing you can do is trust in the person posting. So, I don't fault hisservant or anyone for being cautious about answering our questions. I just pray that hisservant and anyone else still holding onto the belief that our leadership is leading this church in the right direction isn't spiritually devastated when they come to the realization that most of the positions taken here are correct even if they are "in the flesh".
Truth Hunter said...
Andrew, I agreed with you down to your last paragraph. I don't think Steve is capable of pulling us out of this ditch. We have never seen anything to suggest he has what it takes. If he loved the church as much as he says he does he would remove the impediment to healing, the man in the mirror, so we can begin to restore Bellevue.
---
I know, humanly it does seem impossible to invision. All I can say is God is limitless in His glory and majesty. He knows no limits except those we set for him in our heart. I believe with all my heart that Steve Gaines can turn it around - BUT only after he allows God to break him. We may be frustrated and mad at Steve and others but that doesn't change God's thoughts, feelings, or intent for him. I believe God can restore everything, and more, that has been lost. Everything. But for that to happen we must ALL be walking in step with OUR Father. I know there are consequences and Steve will always, like the rest of us, have to face them. But again, I just see Him as so big and mighty and marvelous that nothing is outside His grasp - even Steve's heart.
May we all be at peace in the potter's capable hands.
Andrew
Tim: So you did delete posts yesterday? If so, which of the reasons was the cause for you to delete them?
I'm sorry for asking so many questions, I'm just trying to find out the truth here and that's the only way I can.
Your response to Mrs. Gremillion was reprhensible.
How so? Because I said the information wasn't concrete and nobody can tell if it's the truth? I stand by that statement...unless you can provide me with some proof? Then I might change my mind.
Thank you for your post, ju. So true...so true...
ju,
We obviously posted at the same time and you were unable to read my response before your post was sent.
I indeed have responded to these accussations.
Ah yes I see that you did post at the same time. I consider you officially moved on :). Thanks for ending that controversy.
NOW HERE THIS!!!
FREE PEPPERMINTS OVER ON THE COMMUNCATION LETTER THREAD!!!!
Compliments of ACE
ace and ju: everything is a game to Tim. he knows exactly what posts we are referring to and what he said in them and that he deleted them
Yes hisservant I think he does. And per this quote
There have been times that at the request of others on this blog I have deleted post that may have been perceived as hurtful to others.
I think someone asked him to delete them believing them to be hurtful. Some of them definitely were.
Truthhunter
Thanks for sharing the story about your deacon friend. That was great. The normal dynamic of each proclaiming and then the yielding to truth. Absolutely wonderful - what vision.
Thanks again,
Andrew
Tim and hisservant...
Come on guys. You both need to forgive each other and try to write and read your posts with a bit more grace.
You're both strong men with strong opinions. Now let's see who's the meekest.
Love you both - don't hit me too hard.
Andrew
HisServant said...
ace and ju: everything is a game to Tim.
BETTER TO BE A GAMESTER THAN A GANGSTER!
Who is taking the money from the poor and giving it to the rich?
Even Robin Hood and his merry men had some inkling of integrity but here we have confirmation of the misuse of $25000.00 going to those of no integrity.
Sir, you should be fast on your feet to find out about the $25,000.00 now going to help abort children of the kingdom but you are too busy writing post about Tim`s deleted posts.
Please, go look for the money!
You are as quick to look for the right answers as the pastor is to reconcile with Jim Whitmire.
What a shameful servant you are if you are a servant at Bellevue.
Please take off your mask and let these good people know if you are indeed an authorized servant of Bellevue.
I want to know who you are sir.
ju & Hisservant,
I was asked and I have answered.
If either of you found anything that I posted and may have deleted to have been offensive, then I apologize.
Tim, I think that was exactly what you needed to say to hisservant. I really wasn't hurt by your comments but he was. Praise the Lord.
HisServant said...
ace and ju: everything is a game to Tim. he knows exactly what posts we are referring to and what he said in them and that he deleted them
12:23 AM, November 19, 2006
It seems that you are one the playing games.Everyone has an opinion on the $25,000 except you.You have an opinion on everything and everyone ELSE. Be an independent thinker for once and seperate yourself from the SG crowd.Give us your opinion of this gift.
Ace remarked:
There have been times that at the request of others on this blog I have deleted post that may have been perceived as hurtful to others.
I think someone asked him to delete them believing them to be hurtful. Some of them definitely were.
REPLY:
Tim has more integrity than the pastor or his gang of merry men.
When and If he was requested to remove hurtful words, should he have made them, he quickly did so, comforming to CHRIST.
hisservant and Ace and ju would chastise Tim for this??????
HERE we go with the Rope A Dope again.
Get off the ropes boys and get real.
DING
swordoftruth,
"Ace remarked:"
I never said your 'remarked' part. That was someone else.
I don't think you were here last night and saw the posts. Yes, it was nice that they were removed because of the hateful nature of them, but that's not the point. It was the manner of making hisservant look stupid in the process, then denying it. After he deleted them, he said, "what..what hate filled....dude, you need some help." (again, yes - I have evidence, as that post is now deleted)
Nonetheless, let's put this behind us since Tim apologized. Thank you Tim.
Ace said:
Nonetheless, let's put this behind us since Tim apologized. Thank you Tim.
Now this is a wise request.
Maybe I am being naive, but do we really have a problem with reaching out and showing the real love of Jesus to a hurting church. We do not agree with their doctrine but that church worked in the very bowels of the community. They had a clothes closet and a food ministry to the very needest people in Memphis. Bellevue could not have just gone in and taken over. It seems they chose to reach out and ungird their ministry. The staff members that you are saying went to give them the money were on the missions staff, right? Is this not a mission. I have been on mission trips with Bellevue and we work alongside lots of different churches and people. And if we really believe that the church itself is lost then what better way to show the love of Jesus and witness. It is only money, and it is worth it to have one person see real love and compassion and ask some questions about the Jesus they see in us.
soccermom,
That is one of the best posts I have read in a long time.... I think you hit the nail right on the head with your thoughts. Thank you!!!
stillwaitingandwatching
I highly recommend your above post every bit as much as Bellevue`s bookstore recommends the Purpose Driven Church propoganda.
Thank you for your wisdom this evening.
Here's my opinion about the 25,000. I believe we should have stepped in for an interim time and assisted with the community missions. We could have shared the truth of the gospel, ministered to the clothes closet, food recipients, etc. Were we trying to advance the Memphis area community's opinion of us? Or were we really seeking to minister and further the true gospel?
Here's my opinion about the 25,000. I believe we should have stepped in for an interim time and assisted with the community missions. We could have shared the truth of the gospel, ministered to the clothes closet, food recipients, etc.
Great idea! I doubt they would have let us in the door preaching the truth in the Bible though. FYI there are other Bible based downtown ministries still operating.
Were we trying to advance the Memphis area community's opinion of us? Or were we really seeking to minister and further the true gospel?
Let us hope the motivation was not the former but the latter. Otherwise we got bigger problems than we may fully realize. If our leaders were passing out big checks to gain the respect and admiration of heretics; well that would be a very big problem. I don’t even want to contemplate that scenario. I hope they were just ignorant of the doctrine of that church. Still, the current policy that allowed this to happen must change. No question about that.
I am trying to stay optimistic leadership will recognize these mistakes and significant policy flaws. I hope the arrogant attitude that they are above questions and criticism also changes [Union City Sermon - repent and apologize for the attitutde]. It is just so obvious that leaders need to publicly apologize, ask forgiveness and demonstrate a willingness to change direction by setting up new policies to prevent future mistakes; holding open regular business meetings; opening up the church finances; and establishing church government to ensure the congregation can approve of the direction. Why are they so reluctant to do this? It just seems like they are stonewalling and want to run off people with legitimate questions and good ideas about policy changes that would better protect the tithes brought to the storehouse. Monthly business meetings with a report from and open microphone Q&A forum with the committee chairmen to answer questions about expenditures and programs. What is so wrong about that?
Bin Wonderin,
I really agree with everything you said. I believe if we restore BBC to its structure as it were 2 years ago meaning re-hire,etc, that would be a great first step.
Then, any changes should come from the people God already placed in those leadership roles within those ministries. Next, we need to create a design plan that protects the existing (2 years ago) church and ministries.
This plan would also include something to evaluate and protect us from vendors within our membership who stand to profit from leadership roles within our church.
Now, I do believe we members should be financially successful, so I am not saying the church shouldn't support businessmen with us as an account, but we need to check where these businessmen are in leadership, like which committee, etc. to be fair to the church so decisions that are made aren't temptations and decisions made for the wrong reasons.
We need to make sure there are checks and balances to make sure that the person or committee that has the authority to make the purchase does not include the person actually providing the services or goods.
In a church our size, we need to become more active in the review of the budget before we just blindly accept/approve the budget. And, we should implement quarterly business updates that compare budget approvals to what is actually being spent. I'm not saying every expenditure should be revealed, I'm just saying the budget is upheld.
I believe God's annointed man wants to protect the church with this type format...He, the leader, would desire accountability and under no circumstance allow any type of expense to go through the church that would in any way be questionable. He would want to be the utmost role-model for integrity, transparency, and truth. This goes for his team also.
Perception is reality. We should always be aware of our reputation and influence in the community. Responsible leadership does recognize accountability, does make wise decisions that are well thought out, designed by God, and planned well ahead of time before any changes are made... so it's obvious where God is going "before us" and paving the way. When he paves the way and we obey, his blessing follow.
SW&W - Amen. Please continue to provide your input and perspective. You state it well.
---
msdreamwise said...
"Were we trying to advance the Memphis area community's opinion of us? Or were we really seeking to minister and further the true gospel?"
As I understand it, our church's desire is to be part of a larger community of churches who help and support each other. The impetus for this check was a burned down church and the desire to help rebuild it.
My interpretation of above is that this check was an intentional move to meet a practical need.
Let me reaffirm - I still disagree with the $25k check going to the church in this case.
Andrew
NOVEMBER 19, 2006
GARDENDALE MEMBERS SPEAK OUT
ABOUT EX-PASTOR STEVE GAINES
____________________________
Posted by: Karen | November 17, 2006 at 10:55 AM
I am a member at Gardendale and my husband serves as a deacon. I don't know much about our church finances at all. What I can tell you is the accusations regarding Steve Gaines arrogance are true. I watched it up close for years. He is stubborn and he intimidates people. He demands his own way. I do think he is a good preacher. We just questioned his behavior. He just didn't act the way a pastor should act. He has a way of making a joke out of things that shouldn't be joked about. I remember many times when he offended someone with his careless words.
I can't say enough about Donna. She doesn't deserve what she is going through. Everyone remember to pray for her.
Posted by: Steve was my pastor | November 17, 2006 at 08:45 PM
Thank you "Steve was my pastor." We had another Gardendale member respond to a post a week or two ago and say the same kind of things. Was that you?
What is so hard for many of us to understand is how a man with those traits has advanced so high in the ministry. Because of our past leaders, our church is rather high profile and is among the largest SBC congregations in the country. It looks like God is in the process of cutting us down to a more wieldy size. Our attendance and giving seem to have fallen precipitously. Our loving spirit is sapped. I don't know if Dr. Gaines is responsible for all of this or not, but we are being chastised mightily.
Those of us at Bellevue need to remember your church has a new pastor as well. I pray your transition has been smoother than ours.
Posted by: Kudzu | November 18, 2006 at 08:48 AM
I am a member at Gardendale. I knew Steve personally during his time here. His preaching was so strong and the results so great that the church more or less overlooked his imperfections. Remember it took him over ten years to get the kind of control and power he has pushed on you folks in one year. I felt betrayed after he left since we were in the middle of a large expansion (required by him.) After reading about Bellvue's reactions , I am glad he has moved on. Maybe you folks can harness him a bit. Jamie did stop his "praise service" several time to chastise us for not participating. When I got my fill of the choragraphed holding hands, hands up, and "7-11" songs ,I started standing with my arms folded till the preaching started. By the way , we were told by Steve that he would take no one with him!!. I don't know if Jamie was fired or not, but I do know Steve was informed that one other person was not needed. FYI: 7-11 song = seven words sung 11 times.
Posted by: LEFT BEHIND | November 18, 2006 at 09:22 AM
"Steve is my pastor" and "Left Behind" I was glad to read your comments. I hope more in your church will speak up.
Left Behind, I was struck by your comment that Steve said he would take no one him. We have been told he had a "convenant" with Jamie, that they were a team. He told the search committe they were a package deal.
If he promised Gardendale he would take no one, he lied.
Posted by: Brady | November 18, 2006 at 10:46 AM
Lies???????? that does seem to be a repeated song. We are getting them in pairs these days. I guess they came off the boat with NOAH.
Thanks folks from Gardendale for your comments.
Posted by: Betty | November 18, 2006 at 10:46 PM
I don't know where to begin.My whole family has been members of gfbc since '98' we love bro.Steve and his family.But we have had many friends in the ministry hurt by his actions.Some of them have moved on and some I wonder?One of the comments on the New forum web site that stated about our minister of music being replaced by jamie every thing in that comment was TRUE!He was done very wrong and is such a godly man that he never said a word.Some staff members and church members that were ask to leave were told never to come back on church property again and one had children who had friends there.I will never understand all this but we are praying for bbc.Our church is being restored and our pastor is very humble and very precious. Let me close by saying Lift your eyes to the hills from which cometh your help, your help cometh from the Lord.GOD BLESS!
Posted by: renee | November 19, 2006 at 02:50 AM
I can confirm the comments of the other GFBC members. Godly men were forced out and trampled. One day I came to the realization Steve had all the power in the church and no one could do anything about it. If you didn't like what he was doing, you had to leave. There was no compromise. He forced changes on us over time and we were helpless to stop it. Some of the changes we can't undo. I do feel like we are getting our church back. I am sorry BBC is going through this. Maybe we should have fought him like you are.
Posted by: Cynthia | November 19, 2006 at 12:22 PM
My interpretation of above is that this check was an intentional move to meet a practical need.
I can understand and accept that. Mistakes happen. The bigger mistake is not recongnizing the problem of "how did this happen?" and moving to address it. It is poor policy that allowed something like this to not come before the congregation for approval after a committee review. Perhaps during a better process someone may have brought up the teachings of the pastor of FUMC and BBC could have revealuated how to best make an "intentional move to meet a practical need" without funding a church that is advocating abortion and gay/lesbian/transgender clergy is okay.
A check for $25k very few knew about and perhaps even fewer reviewed and aproved to a church teaching things we do not believe taaht had fire insurance was probably not our best option.
I wonder if anyone has considered the possibility that the reason FUMC burned in the first place is that God may be making a statement here? I don't presume to speak for God in this...but I can't help but wonder. I do know that God does not wink at sin, nor are his thoughts our thoughts or his ways our ways. Sometimes the most loving thing one can do is NOT support a person's or organizations sin. If this money is going to support the ministries of FUMC, and their ministry is done in the context of patently anti-Biblical doctrine...how can we justify supporting such ministry...that's love?...love for who?..for God's law?...if we truly care for their souls...let our ministry be to confront their erroneous teachings...not provide the means to continue them...would you provide money to an alcoholic to continue his drinking?...in the name of Christian love and "community"? Think on these things dear brothers and sisters.
Allofgrace, exactly!!! Let Satan build his own churches. That money could have gone to other church who preach sound doctrine or other ministries who don't further the devil's cause.
A.
Apparently someone asked the $25,000 question at the committee meeting this morning. I came in near the end, so I didn't hear it, but someone who also came in kind of late did ask about it. She asked if the committee knew they were giving to a church with a female pastor, etc., and one of the committee members (I forget which one) said, "We've already covered that." She said, "But I had to teach Sunday School and didn't hear it. Would you mind repeating the answer?" He turned to a man near the front and said, "This gentleman has a question, and he's been waiting a long time," thus dismissing her. A few minutes later she said, "I have a question." When they recognized her she asked the $25,000 question again. One of the committee members answered, "No one knew they had a female pastor."
HUH? Did anyone who watched even 30 seconds of news coverage or glanced at a newspaper not know they had a female pastor? She was interviewed in every newscast I saw for at least two days, and there have been plenty of follow up stories as well. How stupid do they think we are? Or maybe a better question would be, just how out of touch with the real world are the members of the finance committee and Dr. Gaines (whose idea they said it was)? (This lady may not be a Sunday School teacher for long if she continues asking questions like that!)
My personal opinion is that the fact they have a female pastor is a non-issue, but her pro-abortion stance and support of gay causes are major issues.
This same lady asked if they, as businessmen, wouldn't want to research what an organization stood for before donating $25,000 to it, and as I recall, none of them had an answer. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
The meeting ended with a gentleman standing up and telling the committee members to "get off your hineys and do something!" (I must admit that NASS laughed out loud.) "What do you want us to do?" one of them asked. The man said something to the effect of, "Step it up, you know, get going and do something!" (That was very paraphrased but that was the gist of it.) So the committee member said, "Uh, why don't you just lead us in a closing prayer?" So he did.
NASS
Bin Wonderin said... "It is poor policy that allowed something like this to not come before the congregation for approval after a committee review. Perhaps during a better process someone may have brought up the teachings of the pastor of FUMC and BBC could have revealuated how to best make an "intentional move to meet a practical need" without funding a church that is advocating abortion and gay/lesbian/transgender clergy is okay.
A check for $25k very few knew about and perhaps even fewer reviewed and aproved to a church teaching things we do not believe taaht had fire insurance was probably not our best option.
1:45 PM, November 19, 2006"
---
bin wonderin,
I totally agree with you.
Again the problem self identifies. There is too much power in the hands of too few with little to no accountability by people who bring balance, wisdom, conviction, strength and the ability to veto.
What if the deacons were men of conviction and strength, full of wisdom and integrity, ready to lead and serve...what if they were asked for approval and had the power to discuss, review, recommend and veto?
Andrew
If this was indeed the pastor's idea..and it was done at his behest..then I would assume any man called by God to proclaim the truth of scripture without compromise would have checked this out beforehand...or should have..what kind of mixed message are we sending to the outside world? Are we going to be a biblically correct church, or a politically correct church?
If the church is now implying that the money would not have been given IF THEY HAD DONE THEIR HOMEWORK, then are they willing to admit that THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN!
This is just MORE self-evident proof the organization needs serious, immediate help.
May I suggest that common people would have been a bit more thorough in their evaluation of where the money is being spent?
Put godly average middle-income thinking people in key places and I bet the decisions will improve instantly. I do not mean this in a derogatory way. I'm simply pointing out self-evident differences in values. I could say more but I will stop at "values".
FOR $25,000 TO BE HANDED OUT WITHOUT THE SLIGHTEST OF RESEARCH OR THOUGHT IS UNBELIEVEABLE!!!
THIS MUST STOP NOW!!!!!!!
Andrew
A lady near the front addressed the committee and told them how all the people who have gone on mission trips have had to either pay their own way (she said it usually costs about $2500) or solicit help from their SS classes or other members because there was no help from the church. She told how it had been difficult for them since they have 5 children and asked why, if the church has this much money to send to churches that don't teach as we believe, why they can't help defray the cost of mission trips for our own members.
First one of the committee members said, "We don't have the answers to those kinds of questions. Whenever you have a question like that, you need to address it to the head of the appropriate committee." Someone said, "Well, Harry Smith is on the Missions Committee, is he not? So, Harry, why don't you answer her question?"
Harry Smith stood and said, "If there's a need like that, I'm sure if you bring it before the committee we'll consider it."
Consider it? Wonder how much "consideration" the finance committee gave to the decision to send the $25K to FUMC. Apparently not much.
NASS
This raises a very uneasy question for me...if we'll support, as a church, this kind of thing...when will we begin to support the same kind of thing within our own walls?
I can't help but at least consider that this kind of thinking is part and parcel of PDC philosophy...does this appear as a joke now "hisservant"?
Just today, someone asked me if SG was still the pastor @ BBC. (I thought this was a strange question since it would be the easiest to investigate.) Another person said that they heard things were better because SG had set up a time/place for deacons/ministers to answer questions from members.
I told her it was not true that things are better. And I told her that people who ask questions get shouted down. I didn't give specifics but I did tell her that this included women getting shouted down and brought to tears for asking questions.
These people aren't from Bellevue so I didn't want to give away personal information about people like Sister Pam. I also didn't want to give too much info about what has been brought to light in the last few days since they are not from Bellevue. I guess I'm not sure how to deal with these things when people from other churches ask me questions.
I did ask them to continue to pray for them and left it at that.
A.
This is getting worse and worse as each moment passes. It is not going to get any better until something is done. We need to remove everybody from the top down to the Deacon Officers and some Committee Chairs, even some deacons and committee members and BFC teachers. I am continually shocked at how ugly these "powerful men" can be. By their behavior and attitudes, one would think they were all knowing, all empowering and consider themselves above discussing these matters with the membership.
This appears to be classic narcissism and they need to be removed immediately. Perhaps Harry Smith should step down before he gets "marked off the list".
Shame on you for treating your fellow Christians with such arrogance!!!
Allofgrace,
You hit it on the head. If you slip in one area you open the door to slip in many others.
We should be caring for the widows and the poor. We should be ministering to prisoners. We should be ministering to the new immigrants in our community.
But we should never ever financially support an apostate church.
I feel the same way about advertising our church in the Memphis Flyer, a paper that routinely mocks what we stand for. We are using the treasure of our people to underwrite their mission. Apparently those in leadership do not realize how many direct knocks on our church and Dr. Rogers appeared in that rag over the years.
So, how do we perform this bloodless coup? What can we actually do? Asking them to leave has not proven useful because they have a sweet "cash cow" (no pun intended) that they don't plan to give up anytime soon.
What do the bylaws say about ousting the pastor and his cronies?
A.
If the church is now implying that the money would not have been given IF THEY HAD DONE THEIR HOMEWORK, then are they willing to admit that THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN!
This is just MORE self-evident proof the organization needs serious, immediate help.
May I suggest that common people would have been a bit more thorough in their evaluation of where the money is being spent?
Put godly average middle-income thinking people in key places and I bet the decisions will improve instantly. I do not mean this in a derogatory way. I'm simply pointing out self-evident differences in values. I could say more but I will stop at "values".
FOR $25,000 TO BE HANDED OUT WITHOUT THE SLIGHTEST OF RESEARCH OR THOUGHT IS UNBELIEVEABLE!!!
THIS MUST STOP NOW!!!!!!!
Andrew
Andrew - I wish to co-sign this powerful and heartfelt post! AMEN!
We would need to find someone who is knowledgeable in the state by-laws that would apply (since we have none). Also, there would need to be someone familiar with Roberts Rules of Order.
This would need to be handled in a decent and orderly manner and there needs to be at least one or more spokespersons to present all of this to the body in a scheduled business meeting - which would have to be scheduled by someone requesting and seconding a motion in or following a regular service. There is nothing that they can do about it if it is handled according to legal requirements and we are well behaved, which does not seem to be a problem with OUR group. If I am wrong, someone chime in..
Ok. So, who is willing? Who will lead us? When? We need our men.
Ladies and gentlemen I think after hearing what the communications commitee has said today that it is time for all the deacons to stand up and be counted and do their God ordained jobs. The finance committee and CFO needs to be disbanded and terminated. We need to suggest that the church hire a professional accounting firm other than any previously hired and with NO connections to BBC come in and review the books of the church. If you can't look at all of this and know that it's all a good old boy club that will cover everyone's rear-end then open your eyes a bit wider. Once that is finished the membership needs to have a business meeting where a new committee is seated and a new CFO is installed. Along with all of this we need to demand changes to the way finances are handled at the church. It is time to make a stand. Steve Gaines, Jamie Parker, Mark D should all resign. Joe Jernigan can hold this ship steady until someone or even he takes complete control again. Evidence is mounting it will only get worse before it gets better. For the health of the chuch they should all go. Then EVERYONE that has left because they were "called" to something else should be asked to return including the Whitmire's. Undo everything this man has done to BBC. All of it.
Ladies you may not like this answer...but I believe it is the right one for now...Eph. 6:10-18.
Another exchange at the committee meeting occurred between an older gentleman who said he formerly served as a deacon and that he had two questions. First he said that while he knew they wouldn't discuss specific salary figures, he would like to know how much more Chip Freeman was making the week he came back to BBC than he was a week earlier when he left to take another job. The committee member he addressed hesitated, as if he was carefully composing his answer, before finally saying, "Nothing. He was making the same salary as before." Someone said, "What about compared to now? Has he been given a raise since he returned?" The answer was no. Someone else asked, "What about a change in his pension plan or other benefits? Did he get any new benefits?" (See, we're learning how they operate!) Again, the answer was, "No changes." The guy who would later tell them to "get off your hineys and do something" said, "Why didn't you just come out and tell us that?" (I now paraphrase.) "Why beat around the bush? Just answer the questions honestly."
This same man said he'd called Chip Freeman's new employer, and they told him that Mr. Freeman had decided on his own that he didn't fit in with the direction the company was going, that it just wasn't a good fit, so he returned to Bellevue.
The gentleman's second question concerned the deacon's pledge to support the pastor. He preached them a good sermon on how we are to pledge our support to no man, only to God, and that it was ridiculous to expect people to serve as deacons and staff members and have their hands tied by some pledge they make to follow one man. He asked both questions together, but at the end of his statements regarding the pledge, nearly everyone applauded. The committee members sat stone still. After they eventually addressed his question about Chip Freeman, they didn't say anything about the pledge.
Whew! Glad I wasn't there for the whole 75 minutes. I'd be writing all afternoon.
If anyone was there for the rest of the meeting (prior to 9:15), please post your account of the questions and answers that were given. And please drop me an e-mail.
NASS
Ezekiel,
Derrick Calcotte emailed me yesterday - he's out of town; he's not ignoring you.
To all who speculated that ace as Mike Bratton: I spoke to Mike this morning and he has a good point - all his posts have always been Mike Bratton, why would he go anonymous now? So, leave ace alone about being Mike, okey dokey?
Karen (just getting up from her nap!)
Housewife,
Please email me at cafekudzu@gmailcom. I will be out the next few hours, but I will get back with you.
Thanks!
To all who speculated that ace as Mike Bratton: I spoke to Mike this morning and he has a good point - all his posts have always been Mike Bratton, why would he go anonymous now? So, leave ace alone about being Mike, okey dokey?
Hi Karen,
I apologized to Mike and Ace somewhere in these threads last night. I wish I had not written those things. I was upset about other things and took my anger out on them. It was mean and wrong and I regret it. I left the posts up because I didn't want to be accused of a cover up. NASS can deleted them if need be.
Again - Sorry Mike and sorry ace! I was wrong. No excuse. Please forgive me.
barrister, I just did. =)
Let me begin by telling you that I am not part of the “inner circle” of the good ole’ boys network, but assure that it does exist within the deacon body. I am not at liberty at the moment to divulge a tremendous amount of information, nor do I have a tremendous amount of information, but I did want you all to know that there is a growing concern among the outer circle. We have been given very limited, meaningful details. Obtaining any further details has been rather difficult and is being met with the same stonewall tactics within the deacon fellowship as it has to members of the congregation. Those of us with serious concerns are at risk of being removed from the list of active deacons for even attempting to gather additional details and information. Please, please pray for us as we are doing our dead level best to get to the root of our problems and determine the best direction that we can go from here.
I have kept up with this blog from the first moment that I knew of its existence. I have since been made aware that there are many of my brothers doing so as well, some that have concerns as deep as mine and others that are part of the good ole’ boys network.
I must let you know that among the good ole’ boys network there has been a well thought out plan to enter and post on the blog in an effort to create further confusion. I believe that someone has been referred to on the blog as rope-a-dope and it is a phrase that I had already heard before I began seeing it on the blog. I state this to issue a warning to the posters on the blog to beware of traps that are being set. I would refer to those that are engaged in this activity as wolves in sheep’s clothing.
To the administrator of this blog:
I want to personally thank you for the time and effort that you have put into maintain it. There have been questions raised here that have been kept from the deacon body at large and without seeing it here we would be in darkness. I commend you and a job well done.
To Custos:
We will inevitably owe a debt of gratitude to you for your persistence and helping these issues to be brought to light. I cannot apologize to you in behalf of Phil Weatherwax that is something that he must do for himself. I can offer an apology from myself and several other members of the deacon body that were in darkness concerning these issues.
To Derrick Calcoate:
I appreciate your enthusiasm to inform the readers of this blog, but you are being used as a pawn and should begin questioning the validity of the facts and verifying them before you chose to post them as fact. I think the world of you my brother, but you must by now realize that at least some of what we have been told is far from the truth.
To Mr. and Mrs. Gremillion:
The responses that you have received have been unwarranted and unkind. There is a day of recognizing that will come. Some of us are committed to bringing about that day, but if we are not able, it will be on the Day of the Lord. Bless you both and I offer my deepest sympathy for the pain and hurt that has been caused you.
To Hisservent(s):
I am reminded of Jesus when he met the woman at the well. He asked her to go and return with her husband, to which she replied that she had no husband. Jesus commended her and told that she spoke well for she had five husbands and the man that she was with now was not even her husband. You have spoke well in neither identifying yourself as deacon or staff or layman. I am aware and feel that is my obligation to reveal that you are not one, but at least two and perhaps more. Of two I am certain, because your evil plans to create further confusion have been revealed to me by your own admission. I would advise those that post on this blog to have no confidence in the post that are offered by this individual. I believe earlier that I had referred to them as wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Concerning the Communication Committee:
I would encourage each of you to at the very least to attend the meetings to address the communication committee. Even if you do not ask questions your presence will make our job much easier. I will caution that the group is largely composed of some of the “inner circle” good ole’ boys network, but by attending you will be turning up the heat on the issues and it will be most beneficial to our cause.
Finally, I would like to be able to answer the numerous questions that you may have of me, but at this time it would not be prudent to do so because it would hinder our efforts. Those of us that have met had wanted to wait until such a time that we could act decisively, but I felt an obligation to let the membership that were actively reading these posts know that we were working and will continue.
Please continue the good work. It would be impossible for us to know all of the issues that there are in the absence of this blog.
So is tonight the night that the Deacon body is supposed to stand up in support of the Pastor concerning the pledge? Will they still do that considering he couldn't not possibly have 100% support from the deacons anymore? It is heartening to hear that there are Deacons willing to stand up. I understand exactly you mean about your situation. You can't stand up to tall until there are enough and there is a plan in place. Otherwise they'll close ranks on you and do what they did to Mark Sharpe. Is there not a way to stand up on Sunday morning during the middle of the service and initiate a business meeting? Some way to halt the service and deal with these issues?
deacon_thats_a_beacon
We love you sir and are indebted to you.
Andrew
deacon_thats_a_beacon
Thank you for for the eccouragement. As Andrew said we are indebted to you. And I also thank God for answering prayers.
All of grace suggested Ephesians 6:10-18 be read and I agree so I'm posting it from The Message version:
10-12 And that about wraps it up. God is strong, and he wants you strong. So take everything the Master has set out for you, well-made weapons of the best materials. And put them to use so you will be able to stand up to everything the Devil throws your way. This is no afternoon athletic contest that we'll walk away from and forget about in a couple of hours. This is for keeps, a life-or-death fight to the finish against the Devil and all his angels.
13-19 Be prepared. You're up against far more than you can handle on your own. Take all the help you can get, every weapon God has issued, so that when it's all over but the shouting you'll still be on your feet. Truth, righteousness, peace, faith, and salvation are more than words. Learn how to apply them. You'll need them throughout your life. God's Word is an indispensable weapon. In the same way, prayer is essential in this ongoing warfare. Pray hard and long. Pray for your brothers and sisters. Keep your eyes open. Keep each other's spirits up so that no one falls behind or drops out.
"DeaconWhoisaBeacon" said: "I think the world of you my brother"
If this is in fact true, please give me a call or drop me an e.mail.
My e.mail is dcalcote@msn.com.
You can get my phone number from the deacon directory, or by calling information.
I posted this under the wrong thread earlier. Got the right one now. Sorry guys:
Just to make a small observation:
We are now to the point in this struggle that the execution of innocent unborn children may be defended using the coin of Bellevue Baptist Church--former flagship of the SBC.
For any who would deny that a transformation has taken place, this ought to convince you.
The appeal that the $25k was given out of ignorance is unacceptable. It wouldn't have been done out of ignorance two years ago. Something has changed. And we all know what that something is: Dr Rogers is no longer here to keep things in check.
One more time folks: Baby killers can be defended with the tithes and offerings you entrusted to the administration.
Let that sink in . . .
ju,
The plan for presenting the deacons as a united front was scrapped earlier this week. I don't know the specific reasons, but based on deaconwithabeacon's post, I don't think they could show 100% unity with the number of deacons that are not supporting SG.
Just an FYI so you know you didn't miss anything.
Karen
barrister,
I emailed earlier, when you asked me to but I left out the period before .com. Sorry about that; I wasn't paying attention.
I emailied you again. Let me know if you received it. =)
A.
deacon thats a beacon posted: To Hisservent(s):
I am reminded of Jesus when he met the woman at the well. He asked her to go and return with her husband, to which she replied that she had no husband. Jesus commended her and told that she spoke well for she had five husbands and the man that she was with now was not even her husband. You have spoke well in neither identifying yourself as deacon or staff or layman. I am aware and feel that is my obligation to reveal that you are not one, but at least two and perhaps more. Of two I am certain, because your evil plans to create further confusion have been revealed to me by your own admission. I would advise those that post on this blog to have no confidence in the post that are offered by this individual. I believe earlier that I had referred to them as wolves in sheep’s clothing.
REPLY: evil plans? you must be joking! so, what are my evil plans and who exactly do you think I am? there are 100 Conspiracy theories full of hate on this blog and going around and you accuse me of "evil plans". WOW. you are FAR from a Beacon. you can get on here and join the rumors, slander, hate, libel, venom if you would like. that is your choice. if you truly are a Deacon, that is very very sad. you can try and justify the rumors and slander and venom on this blog until you are blue in the face but you cannot do it using scripture. like so many others, you have allowed yourself to be sucked in and deceived. are you one of the many Deacons that have "issues" and "concerns" but refuse to stand and make them be known? and I am not talking about on a blog.
you can attack me all dau long like many. as I have said many times, I will never stoop to that level. we are in control of our actions.
just another note to everyone. Bellevue, the service, the music, the buildings, the classes etc etc etc are NOT about you. They are to be about Christ and Christ alone. and don't everyone post they know that. by everything I have read, you do not understand or agree with that.
Well, the first chapter of The Purpose Driven Life does say, "It's not about you." ;-)
This afternoon I attended an adult teachers meeting with the Communications Committee. This was not much more than a pep rally for the leadership.
My observation is that if we were indeed able to get a business meeting called at this point, that we would lose any vote on the leadership.
Far too many are blindly following and believing whatever leadership is telling them.
We are however making progress and more people every day are learning to ask questions.
My best suggestion at this point is for everyone who truly wants things to chance at BBC to spend time on your knees in prayer.
Someone at the meeting well said that this is God's battle although he was thinkng differently than we are.
Knowing that deaconisabeacon and others are working behind the scenes I can be more patient and wait on God's timing. I truly believe that too many have their heads in the sand and want it to all just be over so that they can get back to what they were doing before.
Please pray like you have never prayed before and we can agree that all we want is TRUTH. God can and will answer that prayer in His time.
what a great time of worship at Bellevue today. Bible Fellowship, and both morning services were great. Sunday Nights are beautiful at Bellevue. the music was great tonight and the Lord spoke through Brother Steve in a mighty way.
hisservant,
Your 9:50 post to:
Deacon thats a beacon
" WOW. you are FAR from a Beacon. you can get on here and join the rumors, slander, hate, libel, venom if you would like. that is your choice. if you truly are a Deacon, that is very very sad. you can try and justify the rumors and slander and venom on this blog until you are blue in the face but you cannot do it using scripture. like so many others, you have allowed yourself to be sucked in and deceived. are you one of the many Deacons that have "issues" and "concerns" but refuse to stand and make them be known? "
---------------------------------
It's interesting that you post this. I've asked you to call me and talk to me on the phone and you refuse. Why will you not call me? I repeat that I believe we are friends.
Tonight, I received a phone call from a friend (teacher) that attended the meeting. He too, said it was a pep-rally. I wanted to address two examples of my name being brought up that offended him and now me since they are not true. All I've ever wanted is to address issues that were brought to me by staff members. For doing so, I've been slandered, called many names, and made out to be a troublemaker. I guess if you don't like the message here at Bellevue then you "kill the messenger". The truth is the truth whether you want to believe it or not. It's not hard to find the truth if anyone wants to find it.
Tonight, the first incident occurred when Mike Pruett, MD stood up and asked why Matthew 18 was not going to be used on Mark Sharpe for his sins against the church. Dr. Mike Pruett has been my physician in the past and we know each other very well. I believe Mike Pruett to be my friend. Dr. Mike Pruett has not taken the time to pick up the phone and call me one time since I've had issues. He has no idea what I've been told by trusted staff members. Mike, if you read this or hear of it, please call me. I would like to speak with you and ask you to give me one thing that I have said or done that is not the truth instead of condemning me before the Ad Hoc Committee.
The other item my Sunday School Teacher friend told me was when a Dwayne Hartsoe stood and asked Chuck Taylor to address Steve Gaines and Mark Dougharty appologizing several weeks ago but not asking forgiveness. Chuck's response was "Mark is splitting hairs".
I don't know Dwayne Hartsoe but I believe him to be a Godly man who is broken over what is going on. I have never spoken with Dwayne until yesterday when he called me. I didn't call him because I don't know him. He had heard that the applogies had been given and he wanted to verify it with the source.
He asked me if the Pastor went a step further and asked for forgiveness. I told Dwayne the thought had not crossed my mind but from my recollection, they said they were sorry for what they had done and wanted me to accept their appologies. That's exactly what I told Dwayne I had done.
For you Chuck to say "Mark is splitting hairs" is a statement I wish you would rescend. These are not my words. I've not thought one moment about the apology from Steve Gaines and Mark Dougharty two weeks ago. I accepted it and it's over. In fact, I forgave them three months earlier when they did it.
Still waiting for your phone call.
Post a Comment