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1 – 200 of 284 Newer› Newest»I Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
I Timothy 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
I Timothy 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
I Timothy 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
I Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
I Timothy 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
I Timothy 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
I Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
I Timothy 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being [found] blameless.
I Timothy 3:11 Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
I Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
I Timothy 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Are we suppose to follow scriptures or not?
Some of this thread is mind boggling to me.
The world is waiting to see someone who will keep their word.
The world is waiting to see someone keep GOD`s word.
It does appear that there are some on here who really have a desire to see that GOD`s word is lived out.
I find that most refreshing and I think a good many in the world would agree with me.
There is enough phoney baloney Christianity in the world.
What new about one more fallen pastor?
If you hold your pastor and church officials accoutable, the world will, so keep up the good work!
Please make that
If you DON`T hold your pastor and church officials accoutable,the world will, so keep up the good work!
To ilovebbc,
My list of hurts done directly to Dr. Whitmire was posted at 2:08 pm 11/14/06 on the other "New Deacon Loyalty Pledge Thread".
Thanks! Karen
Custos - welcome back. Your intellect is much needed. I hope this does not interfere with your walk nor your studies.
Pastor Dave - Thank You for your discourse and your convictions. Your desire for balance is a needed rudder in this forum.
Matthew 18 and/or 1 Corinthians. I dont know the answer. I do know Christ asks us to approach things as a child.
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
I come as a child to ask this question. Where is BBC shepherd amongst these waves?
John 10:4-5
4 After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they recognize his voice. 5 They won’t follow a stranger; they will run from him because they don’t recognize his voice.”
Like a blind child - I just ask to hear his voice.
God Bless - Mark
Reposted from the other thread:
Andrew said...
Did you and all the other deacons, during your statement review session, personally examine all the credit card statements and reciepts or did you review a power point presentation rather than most of the actual credit card statements?
9:42 PM, November 14, 2006
Can our deacon body possibly believe that this strong arm tactic will possibly make things any better?
Do they not see that this would do nothing to unify our church, but only cause further division?
Why instead of desperately seeking an answer of politics, do they not seek to investigate and do what ever is necessary to rectify the situation?
I think that we need someone to step up and help us through this.
Surely there must be a Godly man somewhere who would bring trust and patience back into the situation and put a stop to the problems and help God bring healing and restoration.
Is there no one who can lead us home?
*
I think many of us need to ask THE question: Is Bellevue still the place for me and/or my family?
As the Lord used the persecution of the saints in Jerusalem to spread them out into the world after Pentecost, so He may be using all this to send some of us out to minister elsewhere. Just a thought.
As much as it would pain me to leave after 25+ years, we are praying about it. Bellevue may just not be the place for some of us to worship and serve any longer. (Yes, I hear the "AMENS" even now from the "if you don't like it, leave" crowd.)
Many of the children's BSF teachers spent 2 1/2 hours in a Children's Leadership meeting the other night with most of the Communications Committee. It was somewhat encouraging and I think that if they didn't know already, they found out that those hurting and concerned are probably up in the 30%+ range of membership - as opposed to just a "handful" - if the 1st-5th grade leadership was any representative sampling. Still, I'm not sure any significant changes will be forthcoming.
The irony of all this is that Mark Sharpe and Richard Emerson originally went to Brother Steve under the concern that SG was being put in a position that set him up for failure - the position being that there was little oversight and by-laws to regulate accountability within the church.
In my opinion, "it's been done that way for 30 years" is oblivious to the reality that "BBC, Inc" is much bigger than it was years ago - more money, more responsibility. If the church doesn't have by-laws to govern administrative behavior or to oversee it, then we're asking for an Enron-like situation to develop.
Ed Thompson
P.S. Some may call it trivial, but back to one of the credit card issues. Regardless of whether or not the card was misused, wasn't one of the charges in question regarding a dinner at Ruth Chris steak house involving some visiting ministers?
Why should the tithes of the members of BBC be used to pay for dinner at one of the most expensive restaurants in town? I can feed all 5 of my family at some relatively nice restaurants for what one person would pay there. However, since most of the "elders" at the top of the deacon ladder are quite well off, I imagine they think nothing of signing off for $60-$75 per person dinners to allow the pastor to entertain visitors. However, I don't think this is wise stewardship of the church's money - thus the earlier reference to "BBC, Inc".
Though I admire and respect the retraction, I think the picture on SB was a huge error and a wrong thing to do. But frankly there is plenty of that to go around.
Certainly there are legitimate times to identify and deal with a wrong but please don't just lob it out there for no good reason. And just to clarify, gripping is not a good reason, confessing for the sake of repentance is. Got any of those you want to start us off with?
Honestly people, put the rocks down.
We really need to be pure, holy, blameless and full of love for God and each other and controlled by the Holy Spirit not the flesh. We need to forgive quickly and deal firmly with sin (our own first) but always with grace and mercy. Seeking to teach and to train and to nurture each other.
Don't get me wrong, let's get the leaven out but let's deal with one another as Christ would have us. He alone is the Head. He is the Groom. He alone will ultimately handle all our sin. Let's be faithful in loving devotion to him and give Him every reason to be proud of us.
Hey how about a foot washing gathering where we all see who can wash the most feet and confess the most sin?
Should that happen before or after we get the leaven out?
*
david wrote:
"After seeing the picture Mike presented, it is hard to think that anyone connected with savingbellevue.com is very interested in 'unity.'"
Let me repeat this ver... y... slow... ly.... "We"... are... not... con... nect... ed... with... sa... ving... belle... vue... . com. Now, how many times must I repeat that?
NBBCOF
Amen waitingandwatching...
I know you just pleased your Father very much.
Let's all keep and eye on ourselves and each other. Isn't that what all this is about anyway?
Let's do what we want done.
Let us go first, and in His strength and forgiveness, move forward toward personal reconciliation with one another.
Let love cover what it will and let us all be humble in the rest that must be dealt with.
*
MKW posted: Your hatred for your brother is appalling. If your defense is that he is "not your brother," because you deem him to be unrepentant, perhaps proving in your mind that he is unsaved, then why the vociferous bile? Scripture teaches us to treat the LOST better than some are treating Dr. Gaines.
Hisservant, you have labored hard today, and I wouldn't blame you if you shook the putrid dust of this blog right off your feet.
Sister Pam, I really try to give you credit, but continuing to post "abuse-abuse-abuse-abuse-abuse-abuse" is irresponsible, at best, and severely damaging to the credibility of those who are accusing our Pastor, let alone a complete sabotage of any attempt at reconciliation between the Whitmires and Dr. Gaines. If you truly want to see reconciliation, then please keep silent about this from this point further. You have made your point.
So many posts have implored you all to stop all this, and others have claimed in a positive vein that it looks like healing and restoration are taking place, and you are actually rejoicing! I see NOTHING to rejoice over here as the character of a man is being destroyed by continuing to post what you think you know.
Please, let the committee do its job. If the committee fails, invoke Matt. 18 on them and follow the Scripture. If there are truly as many of you as you claim, THEN step out of your anonymity and take this before the church (not just your accusations, but your identities, as well) -- surely you have nothing to fear if there are thousands of you and if the truth is on your side!
I am not stating things I don't know as fact. I'm doing my best to speak reasonably and to implore you all with all my heart. This is damaging to all concerned. You are accomplishing NOTHING but the advancement of your own agenda.
REPLY: GREAT post and thanks!!
many of you claim Matthew 18 has not been able to be fulfilled and are using that as a crutch and an excuse for this blog and other things. there is NO excuse.
where in matt 18 does it talk about a time limit? where does it say if things cannot be handled according to matt 18 than you have the "right" to do whatever it takes?? where? many think Matt 18 has been tried by both sides. that is not the point though. the point is, there is no excuse for this blog and others. some still have concerns and that is fine and ok, but do things the right way. slander and lies and feeding off of each other is not the right way. many have admitted they have let their emotions get the best of them etc. the entire WORLD is seeing this.
some have stated that you have the "right". you are Americans and you have the "right".
the real question should be do you have a right as a Christian. if we are truly dead to Self as we should be, we have NO rights. our rights, emotions, etc etc are not ours if we are a child of God.
posted: Are we talking about the "Bellevue" in Cordova, Tennessee? Just wondering. There are many things being done at the Bellevue in Cordova that are very Rick Warren like. Plenty of examples have been discussed in earlier threads, so I need not list them all here.
NASS
REPLY: I for one would love to see this list.
After months of reading SB & the blogs, I'll wade in and then go away. I've been a Christian for 40 years. I'm by no means perfect and struggle with the world about me but I trust in the Grace of God for my Salvation through the shedding of the Blood of Jesus Christ.
I'm somewhat of a Cynic and have little faith in men. I pray daily for God's will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven and I know that he is well able to bring it about in His time.
I grew up at Berclair Baptist, went to Briarcrest Baptist when Brother Allen was forced to separate the church and then to Bellevue for quite some time. My mother has been at Bellevue for over 20 years. Like so many, she is now visiting GBC.
I teach Sunday school to 5th grade at another church and I facilitate a Small Group of Christians that has met for the last 3 years in each of our homes.
I often feel self conscious of my own sin and thus feel inadequate to engage however I'll press on to offer a few thoughts.
In keeping on topic let me first say that I recoil at the thought of the pledge. There have been many Scriptures cited that should give pause. I can appreciate the show of support but not with "dismissal" of those who have been "disenfranchised".
If the Pastor and Deacons had sat down with those who had concerns and given a full accounting to THEIR satisfaction maybe none of us would be here now.
Going forward:
Some people posting to the site appear to be ill-informed of the facts. And though they have a love for the church, it does not appear that their heart and spirit are sensitive to those who are hurting. They discount the alledged "inproprieties" and seem to be focused on shutting down the blog. They keep on bringing up Matthew 18 as though it has not been tried and that's somewhat irritating.
They are bothered by the concerned people who want to discuss the church business "out there" for others to see. I must say that I am personally inspired by the Testimony of these men & women who love God & their church enough to discourse and I can't help but think it's a good thing...I hope that I'm not wrong.
I'm reminded that Job questioned God... but never sinned. And in the end he was RESTORED.
There are Deacons writing on the blog who want to assure everyone that they KNOW the facts and ALL IS WELL. I guess we could all take a deep breath and rest in that assurance...but that won't do. Yes, I know that they love God & their church and want nothing more than reconciliation as we all do.
Some of the allegations seem petty when reading from the sidelines but some of the FACTS are quite offensive & I agree with Tim...Sinful.
Question: If the Pastor & Deacons met with MS and others and answered their concerns with a full accounting where would it lead? Why wouldn't he want to take this step of reconcilliation?
Question: If the Pastor addressed the congregation and apologized (for what some would say was "sinful" behavior in that he told "half-truths" & demeaned the Bellevue congregation)would it help the church & himself going forward? If so, why wouldn't he want to do it?
Question: If the Pastor & a group of men jumped a fence to reconcile with MS, why haven't they "jumped the fence" on the way to the Whitmire's house? If things were "handled badly", why do we need "committees" to straighten them out?
I have many more questions but I don't want to overstay my welcome.
In closing let me say that I and many more Christian men & women who do not go to Bellevue are in prayer for each of you on this site, the Pastor & the the entire congregation. We are all the body of Christ and when one part of the body is in pain, we are all affected and desire healing & comfort.
There are those who say that it is too late for SG to reconcile and indeed it may be. But I think that attitude might not give deference to the Will of God.
Pray that God's Will Be Done & Seek the TRUTH.
Respectfully,
BFG
Amen
BFG - I love You Brother
"truth hunter" posted:
The pastor's conduct is understandable. After all, what can he say about: arrogance, accepting kickbacks for holy land trips (he has done this for years, he can't hide it), allowing the church to pay for a country club membership with tithes, booting beloved staff, shamelessly promoting his book through a Bible study, employing the relatives of two of the search committee members (what chutzpah that takes), calling Mark Sharpe "Hezbollah" in front of witnesses, standing in the pulpit in Union City and laughing about not allowing others to speak, kicking a deacon out for having the temerity to question his actions, refusing to call a business meeting, marketing the church like it is a cheap six-pack of beer in ads designed to look like strip joint ads (in a magazine that prints strip joint ads), mistreating Doctor Rogers before he died (get the facts on this, it will infuriate you), bullying people, lying about why he went to Mark Sharpe's house the night of the fence incident (if he wanted to reconcile he would have done it long ago, clearly that was not his purpose), sending emissaries to quiet down a saint of God who says "Amen" too loudly (I believe he really did tell Mark D. he had that dream. If not, Mark D. is an inveterate liar. Clearly one of them is.), agreeing to sell the church organ, etc. That is hardly an exhaustive list. I do not need to delve into credit cards or purpose-driven life to know we have a problem. Notice, that all happened at Bellevue. I took pity on him and withheld his actions at Gardendale and Jackson.
REPLY:
1. WOW
2. I will never resort to the kind of anger and threats you have posted. truly sad!
3. so your thoughts and actions depend on what people post on here? that is very sad! VERY. your threats speaks volumes about your "truth".
4. country club membership?? Dr. Rogers had one for years and years without one word said. Dr. Gaines has canceled his.
5. he did not call Mark Sharpe "Hezbollah". the word was used, BUT that did not happen
6. promoting his book? you must be joking!! they GAVE EVERYONE (800+) the book.
7. the i2 ad?? WOW is all I can say. you might want to go to any Christian bookstore anywhere and look at the cover of praise CD's. there was NOTHING even with close to wrong with that picture/ad. Brother Steve does NOT design those things. we have a department that does and they do a great job. it is beyond me how anyone could see what you and others have discribed when looking at that ad.
8. mistreating Dr. Rogers? what next, unreal. seems you need to get a lot of facts straight
9. there was no dream. period. it is very simple
it is unreal how you will sit on this website and disrespect and slander Brother Steve that is God's anointed. there is NO excuse for your slander and the Bible is very clear on this matter. crystal clear. regarding Brother Steve and his past churches etc. so ALL of the search committee members and the entire SBC and it's pastors are in the dark about all these things you are saying? if he was so bad at Gardendale, why no problems like here? to be honest, I will go no further on this, because your post full of anger does not deserve my time or anyone elses.
David,
We are about love and relationship. The medium, in my opinion, is exclusive or irrelevant. I understand your concern, but my concern is more of another world rather than the world we live in.
God Bless, Mark
david posted : You hit the nail on the head. The excuse being given for this blog is that the Bible can't be carried out, so other means are being sought. However, this not only dishonors Matthew 18 but the command of Paul not to present our case before the world.
I know it annoys some of you to keep harping on Matthew 18 and 1 Cor. 6 and the Scriptures; but you are at this point doing real damage to the Church. (By the way, friends, when you slap the Bride how do you think her husband will react?)
REPLY: thanks and very well said
David,
My brother. The medium I seek is His spirit. It is not limited to TV, Radio, Pulpit, Friends, Parents, or this blessed discourse. I love the Lord and I will not allow the arithmetic to get in the way of mathematics, so to speak. I Love you brother. I seek God and I look for His Voice everywhere. God Help me - We, Perhaps get perplexed in our complexity
In Him, Mark
phil413 posted: Hisservant said,
REPLY: "NO, he did not lie about that. it is very simple and has been explained 100 times."
Please explain it to me one more time. I guess I'm a little dense. SG told the congregation on Sunday night that he doesn't preach on Wed. nights so he can raise a Godly family. That very night he was supposed to be in Union City but was at Bellevue having the info meeting. Do you think he didn't know he would be preaching there wed night. There were flyers all around Union city advertising this. Do you believe they told him on Mon. that he would be preaching on Wed. I may be dense but I'm not gullable
REPLY: for the 100th time. these revivals and preaching deals have been scheduled for months and months and months! yes he knew. you are splitting hairs big time like with everything else. i guess because he said what he said he could never be gone on Wed. somewhere? never? this stuff is just nuts. should he have called a meeting to tell us all there might be a few Wed. he will be gone doing revivals etc? he will not be doing this in the future like he has been. that is a fact. and if he was, i have NO problem with it at all. none
Thank you Job.
You reminded me of how big the body is and how incredible God is.
You know I wonder how many are really part of the body. If we practice sin and live with sinful ways can we have a hope of heaven and eternity with Jesus?
Consider...
Matt 7:23
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' (or perhaps lovelessness?)
Rom 1:29-32
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; {they are} gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Gal 5:14-21
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the {statement} "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
My dear friends, I encourage you to read the surrounding verses...there is so much more.
And remember, doing good in His name is not the same as being called by His name.
Also, be careful of thinking that merely calling out "Lord, Lord" now or later will be sufficient for real salvation.
Faith is given to all, decision is ours, the walk is with Him and eternity our destination.
Take a moment before your God.
Loving you each.
*
mom4: the Deacons did not just see a spreadsheet, they saw the statements as well. ALL of them and had access to the actual credit card receipts. Brother Steve goes above and beyond in this area.
"truth" hunter: from your posts it seems you are doing everything but hunting the "truth". you now accuse men of defending the Pastor for business purposes?? unreal
Is there an unwritten code? Do pastors protect other pastors at the expense of hurting and dying sheep? Do the church leaders blindly protect one another's reputations for fear that their own sin might find them out (as if their own reputation might be the next one in question) ?
I would expect that from the world, not from the saints.
I have family members who have, in the past, been gravely ill. One continued to be progressively more ill due to physician error. Medical attention was actively sought for his problem, and almost noone would treat him. His primary doctor refused, and almost all other doctors refused to see him. There seems to be an unwritten code- protect your fellow doctors at all costs. Finally, a doctor was found that would address the issue- the first physician's error that could be remedied if treated- but ONLY if it were treated.
I have heard a pastor speak to his congregation with such openness and honesty that I was moved to brokenness and tears. He shared his own faults and failures, trials and tribulations, heartache and helplessness. He offered to step down as pastor. He loved his sheep so much that he would allow them to choose another if they didn't trust him anymore, so that they would not be without a shepherd. His sheep loved him. Sheep know when they are loved, cared for, and fed.
And this is how we know what love is, that Jesus Christ laid down His life for us.
Sheep also know when they have been mistreated... or worse. This sheep has been looking for another shepherd- one who treats his sheep as the Shepherd does, while grieving and praying for the flock that has been wounded.
The church is not a building, but a living body. Members of the church are unique, specially gifted and precious in the sight of the Head of the Church. Members are broken and bleeding. May we love one another, stop condemning the wounded, and speak with meekness and fear, in TRUTH and in LOVE.
"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man and able to bridle the whole body"
i think many on here should listen to the sermon by Dr. Rogers on Unity in the Church he preached just before he died.
Hisservant,
I was told by someone at the meeting that the power point was used after the "I don't need to see this" dialogue and I understood him to further say that for the sake of time they didn't review all the actual paper statements after the powerpoint was introduced.
Were you there too?
And yes, the sermon is good isn't it?
*
Hisservant,
You know I am not concerned about the credit cards, spreadsheet, ect...It is more about his spirit in these matters. Let me go down wondering - but did (SG) demean the congregation of saints. One saint I have fallen in Love with is Dr. Adrian Rogers. He made Bellevue a praying church, an obedient church - why has this history been overlooked by current leadership. Is God's remnant inconsequential?
Humbly Questioning, Not beyond Rebuke. - Mark
karen posted:hisservant,
You said "where in matt 18 does it talk about a time limit?"
I'm not a Bible scholar, but doesn't Matthew 18, in essence, say go to your brother once, then twice then be done? Isn't that a "time line"? Mark Sharpe did all that. Just wondering.
This blog came out of the frustration of the failure of Matthew 18 - not before it was attempted and rebuffed by BBC leadership.
REPLY: frustration? so that is your excuse for the slander, rumors and lies that are on the blog?? frustration??
Maybe more aptly stated, Dr. Rogers continued the discipline of prayer.
"truth" hunter posted:
hisservant,
How dare you? Your treatment of Karen is shameful. You have provoked me and I must respond.
I don't know where Karen got her list. What I do know is I got the SAME list from DR. WHITMIRE personally. I then confirmed it with others who had direct knowledge. I have known those things for several weeks. Many others know of this as well.
If men like you and Derrick Calcote do not stop accusing posters like Karen of spreading rumors, I will start posting all of the things I KNOW. Some of them will not be pretty and they will paint an even worse picture of the pastor. I am sick of the bullying some of you are doing of honest church members expressing their opinions. It has become all too common for leaders in our church (see I still assume you are a deacon since you never denied it) to bully the flock. No more! This behavior has to stop. These dear church members are Christian brothers and sisters who don't want to argue and hate to fight, especially in the church. They are too nice for their own good. They are too nice for the good of Bellevue.
I am ready to fight back and I am strong enough to fight back hard. My sword is the truth. You are on notice, some of us see through you and the pastor. Some of us know things and we are not going to let you sink our church. I have the money to buy every billbord in Memphis and Birmingham to broadcast what I KNOW. If you do not stop your disgusting treatment of the church and start leveling with the people, I may be in the billboard business real soon. I will buy airtime on rock radio stations (just like our church is doing) and broadcast the truth. Stop dissembling. Stop covering. Start thinking for yourself.
I want to be clear. I have not spoken with Mark Sharpe in several years and I am in no way involved with Saving Bellevue. When this started I did not know what to believe. At first I was furious about the internet site and I cheered along with everyone else for the pastor. I complained to the Commerical Appeal. However, after studying the pastor's demeanor, I decided to investigate for myself. I grew concerned I might be on the wrong side. My point: I speak for myself. I speak based on what I learned through the staff at Bellevue, Mid-America, Union University, and Southwestern. I have also made trips to Jackson and to Birmingham to investigate. I talked with deacons and staff of both churches. I talked to men who knew the pastor at UTM and Dyersburg. He can't escape his past. He is remembered.
I wanted to KNOW for myself. When I see a stonewall I figure out a way around it. In this case, it was easy. It is amazing what people will tell you, show you, and do for you if you just ask. There is information available to anyone seeking it. I wouldn't waste time with those surrounding the pastor, you will get the politically correct answer every time. I contacted Chuck Taylor in September and I am still waiting on a response. His silence left me no choice but to search for the answers myself.
Once you look into this it will not take you long to determine either the search committee knew or should have known the pastor should not have been called. If they had researched his activities and reputation at his previous churches, this would have been abundantly clear. They did our church a tremendous disservice and now the same group realize their error, yet they are going to the mat primarily to protect their own reputations. I really believe it is as simple as that. If they were not acting out of self-interest, do you think the pastor would have been allowed to drag this out this long? He has a small group who use their influence and position to protect him. They insulate him from questioning. Ask yourself why they have behaved that way. Why wouldn't they want everything out on the table to clear the pastor's name. After all, if they had laid it all out for Mark Sharpe when he asked, this would not have been made public. For some reason, they did not lay it out for him (even though he is a deacon). Why not?
The pastor's conduct is understandable. After all, what can he say about: arrogance, accepting kickbacks for holy land trips (he has done this for years, he can't hide it), allowing the church to pay for a country club membership with tithes, booting beloved staff, shamelessly promoting his book through a Bible study, employing the relatives of two of the search committee members (what chutzpah that takes), calling Mark Sharpe "Hezbollah" in front of witnesses, standing in the pulpit in Union City and laughing about not allowing others to speak, kicking a deacon out for having the temerity to question his actions, refusing to call a business meeting, marketing the church like it is a cheap six-pack of beer in ads designed to look like strip joint ads (in a magazine that prints strip joint ads), mistreating Doctor Rogers before he died (get the facts on this, it will infuriate you), bullying people, lying about why he went to Mark Sharpe's house the night of the fence incident (if he wanted to reconcile he would have done it long ago, clearly that was not his purpose), sending emissaries to quiet down a saint of God who says "Amen" too loudly (I believe he really did tell Mark D. he had that dream. If not, Mark D. is an inveterate liar. Clearly one of them is.), agreeing to sell the church organ, etc. That is hardly an exhaustive list. I do not need to delve into credit cards or purpose-driven life to know we have a problem. Notice, that all happened at Bellevue. I took pity on him and withheld his actions at Gardendale and Jackson.
Karen, don't let them bully you. What you said was TRUE. No one needs to review credit card statements to verify what you said. Sister Pam may be able to confirm much of this based on her discussions with one good committee member.
REPLY: BBC Forum, i would love you know how an anger filled post like this one and others are acceptable? have you forgot the "mission statement"?? you have said things to some on the "other side" for no reason, but let HORRIBLE posts like this one slide. how convenient
the search committee did a GREAT job by the way!
karen wrote:
"I'm not a Bible scholar, but doesn't Matthew 18, in essence, say go to your brother once, then twice then be done? Isn't that a "time line"? Mark Sharpe did all that. Just wondering.
This blog came out of the frustration of the failure of Matthew 18 - not before it was attempted and rebuffed by BBC leadership."
hisservant replied:
REPLY: frustration? so that is your excuse for the slander, rumors and lies that are on the blog?? frustration??
"Slander, rumors and lies" is your opinion. And no, it wasn't a result of frustration. It was plain, old failure. Failure of the first three steps of Matthew 18 to work. I think Karen made it plain that Matthew 18 has been followed and didn't work because (1) Steve Gaines wasn't receptive to Mark Sharpe when he went alone, (2) or when he tried to go before the deacon body. I believe there may have been other one-on-one meetings that didn't get any farther than the first, and (3) Mark Sharpe was denied the opportunity to address the deacon body. So Step 4 is, according to Matthew 18, to bring the matter to the church. That would be either in a business meeting or on campus meeting of the membership. The opportunities for both have been denied by the leadership.
May I then ask you what Step #5 should be? Previous bloggers thought in this day and age and considering the sheer enormity of BBC that the internet was the most expeditious way of getting the truth out, but since you seem to have all the answers, please enlighten us. I'm quite serious when I say I'd really like to know.
Of course, I suppose I already know what you're going to say Step #5 isn't, so I'll save you the time. You can come here and "demand" this blog be shut down all you want, but it will be shut down when the Lord tells me to shut it down, not when Pastor David or "hisservant" or anyone else says to. I say that to save you the time of typing it nearly every time you post a comment and in the hopes of not wasting as much space as has been wasted today.
NBBCOF
slander is a fact, has nothing to do with opinions. regardless if certain things on here are true or false. slander is all over this blog and cannot be defended.
the Lord is in know way being glorified through this blog.
then why have it? we should try to glorify Christ in all we do.
this blog is ALL about flesh and self and your "rights".
as Christians, we have no rights. we are to be dead to our flesh/self. our rights, emotions, etc etc are not ours if we are a child of God.
see above
NBBCOF Forum, i would love you know how an anger filled post like this one and others are acceptable? have you forgot the "mission statement"?? you have said things to some on the "other side" for no reason, but let HORRIBLE posts like this one slide. how convenient
Telos, thanks for the kind words. Good to be back, though I wish circumstances were different.
David and Co.,
I'm afraid you've dropped in here not having the months of background info that many of us have in this conflict. I envy you that, but at the same time it makes much of what you're saying rather old hat.
I don't want to give you a reading assignment, but I would ask that you go to the Sharpe interviews at
bellevuetruth.blogspot.com
Those at least would bring you up to speed and would do away with this silliness about Sharpe and others not having gone to those involved. There is no way on this earth that one can contend Sharpe hasn't gone as far done the line of Matthew 18 as possible--at least there's no way to do that and maintain any intellectual integrity. David, this has been tried ad nauseum. Your encouragement in that direction is not unwelcome, it's simply untimely and therefore frustrating because we've tried and tried to no avail.
Further, the need to deal with sin in our midst trumps a need for unity. A lot of us have a "can't we all just get along" mentality. That mentality, friends, is deadly. On central issues we need unity. On peripheral issues diversity is ok. Sin is not a peripheral issue.
Finally, this silliness about those of us wanting truth disregarding Matthew 18 bothers me. Did you happen to read the link I sent you? It is very difficult to contend that what's happening here (as far as a meeting place to address issues) does not comport with Matthew 18. Lots of people like saying that it doesn't, but I've yet to see one argument that successfully makes that point or successfully negates what's found at that link.
Best,
Josh
I think it is a crying shame the way some of you hide behind a call for reconciliation but don`t seem to see that they are causing more damage to the body of Bellevue by hurling harsh words to people to are broken.
Some of you have said that you went out and found the facts and then came back here and stateed the facts. I believe this is the right thing to do.
What I don`t understand is why there are some who are contributing to these discussions in a way to silence those who have sought the facts, but give no evidence of going out to do their own fact finding.
This is where I have a big problem.
Those of you who are calling anyone slanderers or saying that others are spreading rumors, need to get off this disscussion board long enough to get the facts for yourself and then come back informed with the truth. Just talking for the sake of talking yields nothing good.
Those of you who do not like hearing the facts, need to stop telling others not to share the facts they have.
True reconcilation of the body would require that all the facts be placed in the light, even if it bothers the flesh.
The body of Christ is bigger than Bellevue and the problems at Bellevue have now touched a world of believers who care and who also want answers, not just someone`s opinion.
I am sure many of the churches who have hosted Pastor Gaines are concerned over these matters.
Derrick Calcote who is a deacon of the church is a confusing poster to me because he gives the appearance of representing the church at times and at other times seems to have given out information that was later found to be wrong.
I would strongly suggest that no one, especially a deacon give out anymore answers that are not 100% accurate.
I would also like to suggest that D.C. stop sending messages that say " I am not posting here anymore" and then keep coming back to write messages. The same goes for some of the others here who say this from time to time. You don`t have to announce that you are leaving in order to make things dramatic. Just leave.
I have read messages by MKW that are so argumentive that it makes me sick. I keep wondering why they can not see the damage they are doing to the body of Bellevue and to the body of belivers at large who read their words.
This lady Karen seems to have done more than most of you by going fact finding while many of you sit here and call her names and write about things you seem not to have the facts about.
wondedandbleeding`s messages show that they also went out and looked for the truth and found it which is more than most of you are doing.
Please stop telling those who have done their homework to stop sharing the facts they have.
Truth Hunter is definintly angry but I have give kudos to them for going more than most of you. They said they investigated and collected facts.
For those who are just sitting behind a computer today and entering into these discussion, would you please get off the computer long enough to do your own fact finding so you can be educated in your dialog.
HisServant is causing more divison with their messages of constant debate.
I don`t think the truth is debatable. It just is.
David, who is a pastor should back off from Matthew 18 comments. This is getting pretty old and shows that he has not invested the time to read all of the blog. If he had, he could stop trying to direct others to do what has already been done without success.
Those of you who keep inflicting more pain on the wounded body, need to quiet down. I am sure you must not realize that your words sting others in a damaging way.
Those of you who say the whole world is watching need to understand they are also watching you and the way you seem to want to sweep facts under the carpet every day and quiet the ones who have the facts.
The world is waiting for the facts and if you can not share the facts, I would suggest that you reconsider what you are doing here.
I am appreciative of anyone who wants to hang on and display the truth, like Tim, Nass and others.
One last thing, for bloggers who think other bloggers are wrong for blogging church business. When you have a deacon from Bellvue blogging church business, you lose the debate on the issue.
Respectfully I submit to you my thoughts.
His servant said:"Please, let the committee do its job. If the committee fails, invoke Matt. 18 on them and follow the Scripture. If there are truly as many of you as you claim, THEN step out of your anonymity and take this before the church (not just your accusations, but your identities, as well) -- surely you have nothing to fear if there are thousands of you and if the truth is on your side!"
Wow! Mr. hisservant, is this your first day here? Your solution ignores the fact that a the path to Matthew 18 is blocked by the BBC leadership, who are the same people who make up "The Committee". The Committee's job is to prevent Matthew 18. Your circular reasoning is making me dizzy.
Circular reasoning is a formal logical fallacy in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises. --Wikipedia
See also "Double Bind".
A WORD to the WISE
Don`t allow what other`s write here to get you off the target of truth.
If you will notice:
Some post only to debate. Avoid them.
Some post to change the subject. Avoid them.
Some post to argue. Avoid them.
Some post to get others not to. Avoid them.
Some post to help scatter the flock even more. Avoid them.
Some post to beat the wounded sheep. Avoid them.
Some post to get posts so they can evaluate the next polical move. Avoid them,
Stay on target with the truth!!!
Repectfully,
Your servantg
David, please help me understand something; a brother goes to a brother and is rebuffed. The brother goes with several brothers and they are denied an audience.
The brother goes to the church using modern day communication and you attack the forum giving little support to those who have a complaint and who have been turned away.
Sincerely, in your eyes, what is an acceptable form of communication among church members?
Phones? Cell Phones? A letter writting campaign? Morse Code?
Also, what do you think is the Matthew 18 "path forward"? In other words, what does God insturct His people to do when they are stonewalled by the church leadership?
I keep reading that the response from the church only began once the people started "communicating"
amongst themselves.
I understand the concerns regarding gossip, libel etc., and I agree. Unfortunately that happens in all medium - even in Sunday School Classes. But you don't sink the boat because a few people riding on it don't know how to act.
Humbly,
BFG
hisservant wrote (twice):
"NBBCOF Forum, i would love you know how an anger filled post like this one and others are acceptable? have you forgot the "mission statement"?? you have said things to some on the "other side" for no reason, but let HORRIBLE posts like this one slide. how convenient"
Thank you for your kind offer to help moderate the forum, but it wasn't requested nor is it needed. I've let all your comments stand, too, so you shouldn't worry about anyone else's.
And just for the record, "slander" is verbal; "libel" is the written form of the same. Since this forum is all in written form, no one here is slandering anyone. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't make his comments libelous either.
"the Lord is in know way being glorified through this blog.
then why have it? we should try to glorify Christ in all we do.
this blog is ALL about flesh and self and your 'rights'."
You know, it's peculiar to me that the very same people who come here and tell everyone how "evil" and "putrid" this forum is and that those participating in it are sinning and tearing down the church, continue to come here and roll around in the mud themselves! There's "know" way I would continue to be involved in something I'd just proclaimed was so unglorifying to the Lord. That seems a bit hypocritical to me.
"Beyereconciled" had some wise words for you this morning:
"Those of you who are calling anyone slanderers or saying that others are spreading rumors, need to get off this disscussion board long enough to get the facts for yourself and then come back informed with the truth. Just talking for the sake of talking yields nothing good."
So, are you really a deacon? I thought someone asked you about that, but I didn't see where you denied it.
NBBCOF
hisservant,
I neglected to thank you for reposting "truth hunter's" comment in its entirety. It was well worth repeating!
NBBCOF
beyereconciled wrote:
"Respectfully I submit to you my thoughts."
And respectfully I submit to you this.
NASS
NASS, beyereconciled, mom4, truth hunter and everyone else who has defended me:
Thank you so much for your support and love. I know I speak the truth and I won't be quiet.
Hisservant,
Why are you so willing to go to the mat for a man that's been involved with BBC for just over a year. Yes, Steve Gaines is the pastor, but what if he's wrong???? Put your mind around that for one minute - what if 1 of these - you call them allegations, libel and slander; I know their FACTS - just ONE is an undisputed fact. How many "oopsies" does Dr. Gaines get before some kind of contrition, repentance, humbleness comes from the pulpit?
I want him at BBC - I just want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have a pastor that the same thing to your face that he says behind your back.
I wouldn't post anything here about you or your comments that I am ashamed of to repeat in public.
The 30% figure that Ed Thompson posted here is really scary - how can the leadership at BBC discount that many people?
I repeat my earlier statement: what if 1 of these - you call them allegations, libel and slander; I know they are FACTS. How many mistakes and "do-overs" and "handled badlys" does it take to convince you that Steve Gaines has harmed, hurt, wounded, tresspassed and abused his flock and he needs to fix that himself. Not hide behind this wall his built for himself.
Josh Manning, welcome back sweetie! I miss seeing you and your family in church :( Get my email address from NASS if you want to.
Karen
Let me fix this paragraph - my brain and fingers work at different speeds:
I want him at BBC - I just want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have a pastor that will say he same thing to your face that he says behind your back.
Sorry if I confused anybody! :)
Derrick Calcotte,
Just to make sure: Are you and I reconcilled? I feel we are, but if you don't, PLEASE let me know. You have my email.
Have a great day,
Karen
MKW said:
continuing to post "abuse-abuse-abuse-abuse-abuse-abuse" is irresponsible, at best,
MKW- Have you talked to Linda Whitmire? I think the word abuse would be a kinder description considering her own account.
She uses phrases such as:
"THEY TRIED TO DESTROY MY HUSBAND AND I HAD TO WATCH MY HUSBAND DETERIOATE BEFORE MY EYES"
You must have no idea of what really happened,
MKW said:
and severely damaging to the credibility of those who are accusing our Pastor,
MKW - Again you must be misinformed if you think that anything so far revealed is damaging to anyone`s credibility except those who tried to "destroy" this man.
I think you need to get busy finding out what you must not know.
MKW said:
let alone a complete sabotage of any attempt at reconciliation between the Whitmires and Dr. Gaines.
MKW-You have got to be kidding.
IF you think that bringing the truth to light for all to see is hindering reconsilation, you must not understand the depth and width of this situation.
There are old messages here that discuss this situation.
There are people here asking for the truth and others referring those who ask back to earlier messages on this blog.
Your judgment call of this person could easily be applied to any person who writes anything truthful on this blog.
Maybe that is how you see it and you just used this one occassion to judge this one person but I think you are really out of place to have done this.
MKW said:
If you truly want to see reconciliation, then please keep silent about this from this point further. You have made your point.
This is so sad. You questioning the sincerity of this lady`s desire for reconciliation.
All through this forum there are mean spirited messages- accusations- half truth-
and some stating actual lies and you ask someone telling the truth to be silent and try to heap guilt on them.
WOW!
Do you really want reconciliation within the body of Bellevue???
Don`t you realize that this is a blog. Don`t you know that anyone can go back and read the blog from days gone by?
Maybe you are satisfied that a point has been made by someone but you can not speak for me. Repeated blogging is customary and welcomed because there is a new group of people who come in and ask questions before they go back and read the old messages. Have you ever been on a blog before?
You have unfairly judged.
I think you owe this lady and those who value the truth an apology,
Thank you, headoutofthesand, for repeating this because I failed to notice something:
hisservant wrote:
"BBC Forum, i would love you know how an anger filled post like this one and others are acceptable? have you forgot the "mission statement"?? you have said things to some on the "other side" for no reason, but let HORRIBLE posts like this one slide. how convenient"
Please understand I don't "say things" to anyone "for no reason." Just thought I'd correct that lib... uh, misstatement on your part.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
http://www.bellevue.org/clientImages/1360/start.htm
--Mike
Thank you, Mike. That's the best comment ever!
And worth making clickable.
NBBCOF
Why Karen, thank you. I'll contact NASS (which has to be the best blogger name ever) to get your info.
Cheers,
Josh
Well said, Headoutofthesand.
I've asked many a deacon accusing me of wrong doing to do just that and not one of them has been willing to follow through with Matthew 18 as you suggest. I don't get this! These are folks are supposed to be venerable leaders here and they completely ignore biblical injunctions on a regular basis.
I'm convinced that while this does hurt, God is doing some housecleaning. I for one had no idea the extent to which men we've trusted with leadership positions would compromise themselves to avoid pointing to sin and then handling it biblically.
Your point posses an incredibly salient question: "How many members of the leadership are unwilling to follow biblical injunctions even when those same leaders would contend that such injunctions benefit them and their side of the issues?"
Folks, the leadership is compromising left and right simply to avoid dealing with the issue of sin. They won't confront things a large number of the congregation considers sin. And what's more striking is that they won't confront issues that they themselves paint as sin. What's wrong with this picture?
Regards,
Josh
karen
Hisservant,
Why are you so willing to go to the mat for a man that's been involved with BBC for just over a year. Yes, Steve Gaines is the pastor, but what if he's wrong???? Put your mind around that for one minute - what if 1 of these - you call them allegations, libel and slander; I know their FACTS - just ONE is an undisputed fact. How many "oopsies" does Dr. Gaines get before some kind of contrition, repentance, humbleness comes from the pulpit?
REPLY: first because I know the man. second, I have heard the VERY simple answers to all the "issues". very simple. third, as I have said over and over, there is NO excuse for the slander on here or elsewhere. even if he was guilty of all, that would still not make this blog right. how do you justify slander? what does the Bible say about?
I want him at BBC - I just want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have a pastor that the same thing to your face that he says behind your back.
REPLY: why? it is very hard for me to believe that many on here want Brother Steve at Bellevue. your actions show different.
I wouldn't post anything here about you or your comments that I am ashamed of to repeat in public.
REPLY: me either
The 30% figure that Ed Thompson posted here is really scary - how can the leadership at BBC discount that many people?
REPLY: I do not agree with 30%, but if it is true, it does not change my mind in the least. this blog, the juicy gossip groups etc all over the place etc have caused this fire to rage. people are feeding off each other and off the slander. that is a fact and it is sad. the rumors and the "facts" are ever changing.
I repeat my earlier statement: what if 1 of these - you call them allegations, libel and slander; I know they are FACTS. How many mistakes and "do-overs" and "handled badlys" does it take to convince you that Steve Gaines has harmed, hurt, wounded, tresspassed and abused his flock and he needs to fix that himself. Not hide behind this wall his built for himself.
REPLY: i will say again, that all of us will be held accountable for the things we do on this earth. Brother steve is God's annointed and he and his family are being dragged in the mud in a public forum by you and many others. again, there is no excuse for your slander. slander is no "ok" even if certain things are true. some are personally responsible for ruining Brother Steve and others reputation. Dr. Rogers knew Brother Steve was God's man and I am even more convinced of that more than ever. not many men could take what Brother Steve is having to go through. he is doing a GREAT job. he is not backing down to those that want him to change his sermons because of the junk going on. he is strong on the Lord and I love that about him. some need to take those sermons and apply it to their lives instead of bashing him preaching them.
churchmouse: would you like to change your post and say you are sorry??!! I DID NOT post what you said I did. just another way rumors get started. yes, a simple mistake, but many simple mistakes have helped get us where were are.
please change your post
libertyinchrist: unreal! part of your email is misleading at best. where do you get this Covenant stuff? where? are you going to answer this to this blog and then send another email with the correct info? it is far far far far from a Covenant. in most part all it is only reaffirming what the Deacons, ALL the Deacons, have already done. you and others are misleading people on this and shedding a false light on it. it is very basic. it is not a Covenant and not a "oath" as many have said.
any Deacon that had an issue with it had the chance to SPEAK UP and those same Deacons need to go back and review what they promised when they signed on the be Deacons.
there is NOTHING to this and we need to stop misleading people on it.
any many wonder why some of the "facts" on this blog and elsewhere are simply not true.
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened. (KJV)Zechariah 11:17
Annointed Shepherds can become idol shepherds.
Any person who really loves Steve would bring him to the truth. Many here has done that, have you?
Yes men are not what it needed when it comes to friend.
I see no slander in telling the truth and I see no debate in truth.
YOu are wrong to come here debating what has already been established as truth. Do your homework and get smart about the words you write. As a matter of fact, everything you call the truth a lie, you are going against God himself, so be very careful about what you think you know.
No one here that I see is willing to believe what has no been proved.
Take your friend to the mirror and help him see his sin and while you are there take a look at what you are doing to make matters worse for Steve and the church by calling truth a lie and people who tell the truth slanderers. It just won`t fly here because there are too many things we now KNOW to be the TRUTH not rumor or opinion.
Even Steve`s old school mates are contacting people to tell them what he is really like so this is a deep dark well that looks as though it has no bottom.
The toom is getting full of people harmed by the pastor and his friends, please don`t be one of them.
Help him out today and bring his to the mirror.
If he loves the sheep, ask him to step down until all these things get resolved.
If you don`t like to heat the truth here maybe you would perfet to read it in the news?
You have no idea how volitle these issues have become and the more the pastor and his yes men, procrastinate, the worse it gets.
You are not doing anyone a good service by the things you write and you are not being a peacemaker.
I think everyone who has spent their time and energy going to Steve and staff are exercising love for God, love for the church, love for those at the top.
If you want to help, go get Steve Gaines and ask him to give us all a date, time, and location, where we can all meet together and talk things over, one on one.
Respectfully submitted for your consideration
BEYERECONCILED posted: YOu are wrong to come here debating what has already been established as truth. Do your homework and get smart about the words you write. As a matter of fact, everything you call the truth a lie, you are going against God himself, so be very careful about what you think you know.
REPLY: unreal. very few things on this blog are facts. very few. just another example of how gossip and rumors harm. they are now considered the "truth".
Take your friend to the mirror and help him see his sin and while you are there take a look at what you are doing to make matters worse for Steve and the church by calling truth a lie and people who tell the truth slanderers. It just won`t fly here because there are too many things we now KNOW to be the TRUTH not rumor or opinion.
REPLY: very sad thoughts and you might want to learn more about the meaning of slander. you can tell the "truth" all day and still be guilty of slander. you are missing the entire point and it has been posted over and over
Even Steve`s old school mates are contacting people to tell them what he is really like so this is a deep dark well that looks as though it has no bottom.
REPY: more sad thoughts
You are not doing anyone a good service by the things you write and you are not being a peacemaker.
REPLY: I will let God judge that. my statements about slander etc are backed up by God's word. the blog and the slander on it cannot be backed up by the same.
If you want to help, go get Steve Gaines and ask him to give us all a date, time, and location, where we can all meet together and talk things over, one on one.
REPLY: one on one?? 7000+ in a room?? open mic?
Respectfully submitted for your consideration
REPLY: i would disagree greatly
his servant
Please do not try and say that all the deacons ALREADY agreed to give their loyality to the pastor.
PLEASE DON`T SPEAK FOR ALL THE DEACONS!
Would you care to post what the deacon`s agreed to before they were ordained?
We have the first letter from Chuck Taylor to look at and IF it is being changed or reworded this would stem from what?
Please do not try to tell anyone here that all the deacons agreed to sign this first letter as is.
I know you don`t want to embarrass the pastor by continuing down the path you are on to bring him more trouble.
Does he know you are here stirring up things on his behalf? I will be happy to let him know just so we can see if he approves of what you are doing.
Doesn`t Steve Gaines have enough trouble without you adding to it?
Be a good friend to him and stop your assaut on truth.
I am really wondering if you are here to just tire us out like the Rope a dope trick. I am not accusing you of this, I am just baffled as to why you would want to cause more strife in the flock of Bellevue.
perfect example of NOT having the facts. when ANY Deacon signs on as a Deacon, in the process, this is done. there is NOTHING fancy about the deal for the 19th. showing support of the Pastor and reaffirming what they already agreed to.
you and others REALLY need to get the facts before spreading rumors and causing more issues.
go to Mike Bratton blog and see what Derrick posted. he lists 2 EXACT things Deacons have ALREADY agreed to. Please come back and post your thoughts and what is the difference inj the 2. PLEASE.
you can then also admit you were wrong and spread the word and the TRUTH about the Nov. 19th deal.
Dear His Servant:
There is an expression we use in the legal profession: "When person decides to represent themselves, they have a fool for a client."
I strongly urge you to do some real research such as consulting Black's Law Dictionary, 8th edition to determine the true meaning of slander. Also check out the meaning of libel. If you do, you will find what has been posted is neither slander nor libel. I will agree that some posts are in poor taste but they certainly do not rise the level of either slander or libel. You certainly would not be successful in a court of law. I think West TN Barrister told you the same time thing yet you still do not belive him? You keep asking for proof, Sir I challenge you to produce such statements that are either slander of libel.
Rather I propose you are upset when someone post something you don't agree with, you call it slander.
Brother His Servant, please refrain from making legal charges or legal judgments against posters. Your charges are hollow attempts to intimiate these people won't work.
Now you have been put on notice. I pray you will not continue to throw around words and phrases to threaten people. Once you have done your research you will have no other choice but to agree West Tn Barrister and I are right and you are wrong. I think some other brothers and sisters of you and I are due an apology. What do you say? I trust and pray you will be man enough to admit you have been wrong and ask their forgiveness.
you might want to research what the Bible says about slander.
david posted:
Now you have been put on notice. I pray you will not continue to throw around words and phrases to threaten people. Once you have done your research you will have no other choice but to agree West Tn Barrister and I are right and you are wrong. I think some other brothers and sisters of you and I are due an apology. What do you say? I trust and pray you will be man enough to admit you have been wrong and ask their forgiveness.
REPLY: words to threaten people? are you joking? when have I ever? how convenient that you seem to ignore the pure venom that some have posted in the last few days against me and Derrick and anyone in support of Brother Steve etc.
i never said that if I disgree with it, it was slander. the rumors, attacks, half-truths, 100% untruths, etc etc on the blog and elsewhere is slander.
it is sad that you and others are using the "oral" excuse to try and defend your actions.
and I guess you think libel is ok because the word is not in the Bible. you are splitting hairs to try and justify the actions.
can ANYONE on here say that they have NEVER EVER said any of these rumors, etc to someone in a conversation. that you have never ever discussed any of this in an oral way???
because he is God's anointed.
i guess you are referring to spelling, no suprise
great posts david.
David said:
"When Bellevue voted to call Steve Gaines as pastor, the church was agreeing as the Body of Christ that it believed he was anointed by God to be the pastor. Anointed refers to his calling and specifically his having been set aside to be pastor of the church."
Sir,
When we called Steve Gaines as our pastor, we were deceived. No one told us of his history of lack of integrity, no one mentioned that he was hand selected by a search committee with questionable motives, no one told us about his money issues, no one told us he would renig on the promise to hold off on changes for one year, no one told us he would disrespect Dr Rogers, no one told us he would use BBC as his personal piggy bank, no one told us he would divide to conquer, no one told us he would FIRE Jim Whitmire so soon, no one told us he would rule in arrogance....shall I go on.
Being annointed under false pretenses is questionable to say the least..
Brother David,
Why do you insist on provoking Tim? He is a member of Bellevue; you are not and for most part you have nothing but provoke the posters here who are members of Bellevue. We are members of the body of Christ, but this is a local church issue. If you have no dog in the fight, why do you insist on getting involved? Are you enjoying yourself or do you not enough work to do at your own church?
Just a note:
(I may be mistaken, but:)
This blog site along with the savingbellevue site was passed by word of mouth until Mike Bratton & Co got wind of it..I had never even heard of it until after he became involved.
It was never intended to be a public domain, just insiders - which means - no outsiders who have no real clue were invited until the Gaines camp started their attacks??
Is this correct?
i just do NOT get why some have to continue to repeat things OVER and OVER that have already been addressed 1000 times. why??
choice: read what has been posted about the "deacon pledge" as you call it. PLEASE stop this stuff. EVERY DEACON has already signed on to these same things when they became a Deacon. it was the SAME under Dr. Rogers. it has been the same for YEARS and the same at churches all over the country. you are misleading people!! you are USING Dr. Rogers in a very bad way.
David,
Did I say "get out"? I have referred many times to Jeremiah 23, especially v1-4. This is my position - my belief and my hope.
In the mean time, I agree with Karen, you are causing strife where there should be none. The more you argue, the worse you look to us. You are not going to win anyone here over to your "side". You are not here, you do not know what goes on here and you are not qualified to give an opinion here. That is not a "get out", that is a fact.
mom4: "we" were not deceived. many are deceived RIGHT NOW though.
so you are saying that the Search Committee new of this "horrible past" and ignored it??
so you are saying that Dr. Rogers was VERY VERY VERY close to Brother Steve and Brother Steve was his choice even though he new of this stuff you claim? and PLEASE do not come on here and say it all existed and Dr. Rogers and others were not aware of it.
i would love a response
"Jeremiah 23"
HisServant said...
i just do NOT get why some have to continue to repeat things OVER and OVER that have already been addressed 1000 times. why??
This was so good that it is worth repeating.
Attention: Pot...this is kettle...your black.
Karen: I thank God for david and his posts.
provoke? i see none and please don't blame anyone else for the anger, rumors, slander etc coming from some on this blog
hisservant,
Please do your homework. There is no way that we will see eye to eye on anything here until you do your own research and have something to base your opinion on besides something you are told.
In the meantime, you can also read Jeremiah 23, which is where I stand if you want to know what I believe about what has happened. And I have never "slammed" BBC, just the leadership who have lied, stonewalled and pushed us out the door from the beginning. Tell me where in scripture it says to "leave if you don't like it", tell me in scripture where it says that we should follow man blindly, show me in scripture where is says that man is infallable, show me in scripture where it says that Matthew 18 can be ignored. If you want to stop all of this - have a business meeting - with an open mic and the documentation to back up your claims.
David,
You have no idea of which you speak - go to savingbellevue.org and read all the letters that have been sent to Steve Gaines, Chuck Taylor and all the deacons of Bellevue Baptist Church. If you have not read them and then read Mark Sharpe's interview as custos suggested this morning, then you have no idea what you're talking about. Do you think we would be blogging all day if we could exercise Matthew 18? Matthew 18 has been exercised over and over and I believe it's still being exercised through this blog. Do you think we just came up with the blog one day - oh yeah, that's a good idea - before all other channels of communicating with BBC leadership had been exhausted? I'm not sure why you've appointed yourself to show us how wrong we are. Why do you care?
We are not gossiping, we are not slandering, we are not libeling - we have done the research, we've consoled those who have been wounded, and we are emparting knowledge to others members of BBC that my not have known what has gone on with thier leadership this past year.
See my earlier post - how many "handled badly" situations does SG get to have before he's called on the carpet over it? How many people can he call "Hezbollah"? How many people can he fire without cause; how many people can he intimidate; how many fences can he trespass over(aka break the law); how many???? How many sheep can he wound before we get another shepherd? Or at lease get our current shepherd to say he's sorry.
stillwaiting,
You're right - I'll scroll on by from now on.
Thanks! Karen
mom4 posted: David,
Did I say "get out"? I have referred many times to Jeremiah 23, especially v1-4. This is my position - my belief and my hope.
In the mean time, I agree with Karen, you are causing strife where there should be none. The more you argue, the worse you look to us. You are not going to win anyone here over to your "side". You are not here, you do not know what goes on here and you are not qualified to give an opinion here. That is not a "get out", that is a fact.
REPLY: i agree david, my jaw drops as well. simply unreal. mom4, you have the Audacity to come on here and talk about anyone else causing strife. and where there should be none?? trust me, it seems david is very qualified. he has the Word of God on his side as I do. you and many keep ignoring the TRUTH in his posts. there is nothing in God's word that you can find to defend yourself so you choose to ignore.
david has focused on ONE thing in everyone of his posts here. that is what the Word of God has to say. it is sad you and others find that not to be worth your time.
and you might want to take some of your own advice.
Let's ignore david and hisservant. They are tools of the pastor sent to disrupt and frustrate. They may even be staff lackeys like Larry Ray or Phil Weatherwax.
Before you get angry at that comment, go find out what Larry did to Ray Saba. He was sent to do the pastor's bidding and didn't have the integrity to refuse.
The pastor isn't the only problem.
Again, read Jeremiah 23, and have a business meeting with an open mic. You are not going to make any changes here until that is done, decently and in order.
Matthew 18 has been rebuffed and ignored by the church leadership, can you do something about that? If so, we can talk.
david,
So what - they used email? What's the difference? Email is an acceptable form of mass communication - so now you're objecting to the form of communication that was used? As Tim said yesterday, what would you suggest we use to exercise Matthew 18? Telegraph, telephone, heiroglyphics, King James English,
sign language; what is the correct form of communicating Matthew 18? Men have spoken, written letters, emailed, telephoned - shall we hire a skywriter?
I seem to remember reading somewhere about a dog, someone grabbing him by his ears, and this being a bad thing. . . oh yeah, Proverbs 26:17 "Like one who seizes a dog by the ears is a passer-by who meddles in a quarrel not his own."
Just a thought.
Anyway, regarding David's contention that the "leadership" of those asking questions is "courting the outside":
David, I'm confused. No one on this side seems to be courting the public. Citing site counters as evidence seems dubious to me since they don't gauge location, church membership, or interested parties but simply aggregate numbers.
Further, I can't seem to get a response out of you regarding the defense of this and other forums as outlined in a link I sent you a few posts back. You attack the use of this medium but seem not to regard arguments that hold water.
You certainly don't need to feel obligated to respond--it's horrible being tethered to one of these online conversations--but you seem to just ignore all points made in defense of this medium without bothering to debunk them. That seems to amount to tacit capitulation or simply ignoring points that detract from your contention.
One way or the other, it would be nice if you'd either engage our points about the legitimacy of the blog, or refrain from firing at us while you ignore reasonable arguments. Otherwise this becomes more of a shouting match than a conversation, and that’s no good for anyone. I'm not trying to call you out or anything like that, I'm just making an honest request.
Best,
Josh
mom4: i have read Jer. 23 many times. so you are going to just ignore the rest of God's Word?
i know EVERYTHING I need to know. i have been around this a long time. new to the blog, but not knew to the rumors and slander and lies that make it up.
there are many people that are deceived.
karen: we have all read the stuff on this blog and others. old news. old rumors and slander and lies. rumors are changed and or added to every day. VERY SAD. so you are basing what you believe on Mark Sharpe?
Matthew 18 has been rebuffed and ignored by the church leadership, can you do something about that? If so, we can talk.
Until then, I shall scroll on by...
7000+ emotional people in a room with open mic??
wow
hisservant,
Absoulutely not! I'm not resting on the word of one man. My involvement on this blog and with other hurting members of Bellevue had nothing to do with Mark Sharpe. I found out about Mark Sharpe after the meeting at the Bartlett Community Center. My beliefs come out of my own research and verification of facts with other BBC members. I have personal knowledge of the poor treatment of Jim Whitmire.
choice,
are you saying in your post that hisservant is Dr. Gaines?
Thanks, Karen
Tim,
I caught that - ;)
there is NOTHING about the Deacon deal, past or present that against God's Word. where do you get this?
Brother Steve did not fire Jim Whitmire
things were not handled great and we all know that. Brother Steve made a mistake. he has tried to make it right and will continue to do so. with Jim Whitmire and the Choir and everyone involved
SW&W,
You are right, I shall scroll on by.. Thanks for the input..
mom4 and others, my posts??
SWAW and Tim,
scolling, scrolling, scrolling RAWHIDE!
LOL!
karen
David, I'm not sure I'm a leader of much of anything, and I usually try not to speak for anyone. I just count it an honor to stand with the ones who want accountability and biblical follow-through.
Regarding your suggestion: Near the end of August (before I was blogging about Bellevue-specific issues) I tried to see Dr Gaines and it didn't happen. I was told I might be able to expect a phone call from him. That never happened either. I sent an email. Never heard back. I've tried to communicate with the man and it hasn't happened.
On face value, I don't think I disagree with your suggestion: my contention is that the issues are lack of oversight, conduct unbecoming, and obfuscation, but there are many alleged specifics that I can't bring up as sin if I meet with him.
For example: I can't cite Dr Whitmire's relegation as sin against me (it didn't happen to me). I can, however, cite the charade that accompanied it because it affected me and the rest of us who are Bellevue members.
A common argument against those who are worried is that these sins weren't committed against us specifically. Well, to a point that's right--just take the above example. The problems with that argument, though, are twofold: 1) When a leader sins it hits everyone--bellevue has had ministers who have fallen come before the church to ask forgiveness since they sinned not only against themselves and specific individuals but also against the body they serve. And 2) If a pastor is, to use a sadly leftist term, "disenfranchising" part of his flock, I would argue that that's a sin against the whole flock because it affects the spiritual health of all.
Madness perhaps, but plausible. It is very hard to contend that the good-faith efforts of many haven't met with the actions described in Ez 34. Very hard I'm afraid.
Just my two cents.
Choice, Karen, Tim,
It is almost funny that I was thinking the same thing... I started to REALLY wonder if Gains himself has been blogging with us. I'm not just talking about his lackies, but the man himself. And I started to become really suspicious when hisservant joined our "sinful" blogging ranks. =) I'm just glad I don't work for him so he can't fire me. ...10 foot pole!!!
Ana.
You're right I suppose. This does sort of constitute feeding the trolls.
It's just that it's hard for those of us with prohpecy as a spiritual gift to let wrong stuff go--even if it does come from Trolls.
I'll try to do better, but I do reserve the right to jump back in if a particularly pesky troll argument pops up. =)
PS It occurs to me that "Troll(s)" is internet lingo and may not register with everyone.
"Trolls" are people who do not belong on a chat site/discussion forum and simply show up to harass those who are legitimately conversing.
NASS
There are some really good posts buried deep within these threads. Maybe a spot on the front page for the "best of" would be a good idea.
I know, Tim. I was telling my husband about it just before choice mentioned it. Also, I've had to use a lot of restraint from replying to a lot of the mess that some people say on here, basically spitting what they have heard from SG's camp. You can tell that they have not properly read everything already written and we have to go back and set them straight. I don't really blame them so much because it's a lot to read. But it does feel like we're taking a step back.
Anyway, someone usually steps up and says what I was thinking anyway, so I'll save my comments for when I feel warranted. (Although there were a couple of times I should have spoken up.)
Anyway, keep at it Tim. Karen, Pam and others, keep it up. Thank you for not giving in to the lies and corruption.
A.
Two Davids:
This is from David B.
I see that Pastor David and I are causing confusion with some of you. My name is David B. and I am not a pastor. My only post today was to His Servant about accusing folks of slander when in fact it is not slander. He then replies and add rummors, gossip. I was speaking only to his use and charge of slander. I am not trying to defend anything.
My big issue and disatisfaction is over the hanlding of Dr. Whitmire. It was and still is plan wrong and I do have facts but that would not serve any purpose posting them here. It is my prayer that Dr. Gaines and Bellevue make an attempt to reconcile with Dr. Whitmire.
While I have the forum I know many other pastors that do not preach on Wednesday. This is a non-issue. My family recently left Bellevue and my current pastor does not preach on Wednesday. Instead he lets his associate pastor preach to get the experience.
And as far as the money issue, I too think that is a non issue. I feel strongly that there are enough checks and balances in place at Bellevue. How many of us have used our corporate card for personal business? I am certain the administration of Bellevue will see that they are remibursed.
Back to the this theme of this thread the Deacon Loyalty Pledge, I feel it is not necessary and will only add to further division. If the thing with Dr. Whitmire had been handled differently, I dare say most of this would not be taking place. That situation was such a shock to all of us that have been there a long time. It could have been done differently.
So what if Dr. Gaines has a different manner than Dr. Rogers? I do wish he were a little more like Dr. Rogers, but he is not. I feel my Lord will deal with him in HIS time and in HIS manner. HE doesn't need me telling HIM what to do. I am reminded of our Lord's Prayer, "Thy will be done" It does not say My will be done.
I promise in the future when I post to use David B. so there is not confusion. There are good people of both sides of this that are being hurt. It is a shame that some feel it necessary to pick apart someone's thoughts and opinions. Please accept their opinons and love them. I say once again I long for the day my beloved Bellvue gets past all of this and that brothers and sisters on both sides will be "one in the bond of love."
David,
You have finally answered my question that I asked at 7:58 this morning. The problem is that you are addressing people who have tried to communicate with the Deacons & the Pastor for quite a long while. They have followed scripture and prayed for reconciliation and yet you speak to them as though they know nothing of the Word. You have judged their forum and called them sinner's for the last 2 days. I suggested more than once that you listen to them and try to understand but you would not let up and now you have been rebuffed.
Your advice to once again go to the Pastor & Deacons is good advice. I would like to suggest (as has been done before) that you arrange the meeting. I'm sure that a person of you position and influence can persuade the leaders of the church to sit down with the flock. I am also sure that the group can appoint a representative and develop a list of concerns by the time you get back to them.
The answer that you gave to my earlier question is found in Matthew 18:17.
Humbly,
BFG
*wandering by, hands in pockets*
*watching the troll*
*cooperating with moderators*
*whistling a tune*
why were posts removed?
Well, I remove my own because I'm inept and invariably find wording changes I want to make and gramatical errors to correct after I hit the post button.
David,
In all sincerity, you speak as if you KNOW that no "group" has approached the Deacons & Pastor and that only individuals attempted to follow Matthew 18.
Also, the fact that I earnestly read your posts means that I in no way disrespect your motives or intentions and in fact give great consideration to your advice.
I have never asked you to "go away" though there are some who grow weary of your 1-sided position that seems to have little knowledge of the facts.
I believe your "position" is one of a Christian, a church leader who loves the Lord and who truly loves His church. That is what you have held yourself out to be. Why would it surprise you that I would think you might have influence with other leaders in the church.
I was not being "cute". Nothing would thrill me more than to think you could contact the leadership at Bellevue and arrange the meeting that others have failed to do.
Also, don't think the leadership is not fully aware of the "list".
Humbly,
BFG
David,
I concur...you must be on the West Coast. I wonder what your sermon will be on tonight..?
Don't feed the trolls, guys. I know I did it but I hadn't been back long and didn't realize what a problem this is. My mistake.
Don't feed the trolls.
Hope so too, SWAM. They seem to be attracted to bridges and blogs. =)
Interesting.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Internet the most open, most interactive communications medium Al Gore ever invented?
Since this isn't a password-restricted forum, why is anyone surprised that a public forum would receive responses from... well, from the public?
--Mike
Well Mike, I for one am not really surprised that folks are here who shouldn't be. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised when non-b'vue people showed up at a meeting inside the church building either (assuming we weren't denied it as a meeting place as we already have been). We wouldnt' be able to screen outsiders there, and we can't screen here for the same reasons. A password won't work either because it'd just get dissiminated.
Of course, this is rather a stale discussion since it was dealt with months ago.
Please accept my sincere appology, Mr. hisservant. I wrongfully gave you credit for MKW's post, but I see that you are in agreement.
HisServant said...
MKW posted:
Please, let the committee do its job. If the committee fails, invoke Matt. 18 on them and follow the Scripture. If there are truly as many of you as you claim, THEN step out of your anonymity and take this before the church (not just your accusations, but your identities, as well) -- surely you have nothing to fear if there are thousands of you and if the truth is on your side!
hisservant said:
REPLY: "GREAT post and thanks!!"
Does anyone know how the deacons are going to be presented to the church on Sunday? Do we "objectors" want to present ourselves as a unified front? I'd like to know if anyone has a suggestion for a next step. Thanks!
Karen
Tim,
Can NASS send me your email address so we can discuss this further?
housewife posted: Choice, Karen, Tim,
It is almost funny that I was thinking the same thing... I started to REALLY wonder if Gains himself has been blogging with us. I'm not just talking about his lackies, but the man himself. And I started to become really suspicious when hisservant joined our "sinful" blogging ranks. =) I'm just glad I don't work for him so he can't fire me. ...10 foot pole!!!
Ana.
REPLY: what a sad post. just more slander and junk. it is unreal how disrespectful you and others are being toward Brother Steve our PASTOR and others. simply unreal. PLEASE stop posting these feel good sayings and "in love" etc etc etc etc etc. it is obvious they are just words and not sincere. one second someone posts one of those and the next the same person posts a post full of anger.
some make posts making light of the same VERY SERIOUS rumors and slander you base your entire argument on. are they serious or are they a joke at the expense of someone else??? I think the Bible is crystal clear on that.
who are his lackies?? just more disrespectful slander and anger.
NO, I am not Brother Steve. how ridiculous.
the word Hezbollah was used, but he did not call Mark or anyone else that. you hear what you want to hear. you might want to listen to Mark's "recording".
yes, there are 2 david's. yes
hisservant wrote:
"who are his lackies??"
No comment.
NO, I am not Brother Steve. how ridiculous."
Choice and Brother Steve will be happy to know that. Thank you.
Okay, scrolling now...
NBBCOF,
i have not seen you calling out those on "your side" for their HORRIBLE, disrespectful posts. many full of venom and things meant to hurt others
when I think I have heard it all. sure Karen, that is the answer.
mom4 posted: David,
Did I say "get out"? I have referred many times to Jeremiah 23, especially v1-4. This is my position - my belief and my hope.
In the mean time, I agree with Karen, you are causing strife where there should be none. The more you argue, the worse you look to us. You are not going to win anyone here over to your "side". You are not here, you do not know what goes on here and you are not qualified to give an opinion here. That is not a "get out", that is a fact.
REPLY: i agree david, my jaw drops as well. simply unreal. mom4, you have the Audacity to come on here and talk about anyone else causing strife. and where there should be none?? trust me, it seems david is very qualified. he has the Word of God on his side as I do. you and many keep ignoring the TRUTH in his posts. there is nothing in God's word that you can find to defend yourself so you choose to ignore.
david has focused on ONE thing in everyone of his posts here. that is what the Word of God has to say. it is sad you and others find that not to be worth your time.
and you might want to take some of your own advice
libertyinchrist: unreal! part of your email is misleading at best. where do you get this Covenant stuff? where? are you going to answer this to this blog and then send another email with the correct info? it is far far far far from a Covenant. in most part all it is only reaffirming what the Deacons, ALL the Deacons, have already done. you and others are misleading people on this and shedding a false light on it. it is very basic. it is not a Covenant and not a "oath" as many have said.
any Deacon that had an issue with it had the chance to SPEAK UP and those same Deacons need to go back and review what they promised when they signed on the be Deacons.
there is NOTHING to this and we need to stop misleading people on it.
any many wonder why some of the "facts" on this blog and elsewhere are simply not true.
hisservant,
You wrotem "when I think I have heard it all. sure Karen, that is the answer."
That's what answer?
Karen
Tim,
"S is for scrolling, that's good enough for me...."
Can you name that tune? :)
Karen
hisservant wrote:
"i have not seen you calling out those on "your side" for their HORRIBLE, disrespectful posts. many full of venom and things meant to hurt others"
Well, since it was addressed to me personally, I'll stop scrolling just long enough to say (1) you're repeating yourself, and (2) that if you've read through the comments in older threads, you would have seen several examples of that. Of course, I suppose HORRIBLE is in the eye of the beholder.
NBBCOF
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll just be scrollin' on...
and I guess you think libel is ok because the word is not in the Bible. you are splitting hairs to try and justify the actions.
can ANYONE on here say that they have NEVER EVER said any of these rumors, etc to someone in a conversation. that you have never ever discussed any of this in an oral way???
there is NOTHING to this and we need to stop misleading people on it.
If there is nothing to it why do deacons get fired if they don't sign it?
Ok, so if we ever said anything we shouldn't have it disqualifies us from commenting about real sin? That sounds remarkably like the moral equivalence arguments I hear bandied about by my liberal friends--"well, we've messed up too so we can't judge anyone else."
I'm not sure I buy that line of reasoning since all have sinned and fallen short.
Also, saying you disagree with someone isn't libel. Libel's defintion is rather strict, and it might serve those of us accusing others of committing it to actually look the word up.
I've been following this blog since the beginning, all threads. I haven't seen this come up anywhere else. Did I miss it? Seems like this needs to be emphasized.
phil413 said,
Hisservant,
If as you say SG did not call Mark Sharpe Hezbollah, please explain why 2 weeks ago (nearly 100 days after he called him Hezbollah) did he call and finally apologize for calling him Hezbollah. Steve called Mark, apologized and told him "he really didn't think he was a Middle Eastern terrorist.
karen: to cause a scene in front of the church. your idea you posted
stillwaiting said:
When you are walking around out in public, and you hear various conversations going on, do you interject yourself into everyone's conversation?? If not, do you think it is right for people to interject themselves into other people's conversations simply because they are in the public and they can be heard??? Hopefully, not.
So are you saying this isn't a public forum? It's a private conversation that can be also be viewed by the public?
On the main page...It says, "This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church can come to comment and exchange ideas"
Forgive me, but I seem to be missing something. Where does it say that only members of Bellevue are allowed to comment about the issues? Exactly, nowhere. Pastor David seems to be concerned about what's going on, otherwise I'm sure he wouldn't take the time out of his day to comment. So he has come to comment and exchange his ideas with everyone else. What's the problem?
Presumably what's been planned by the leadership is not a "scene"?
I'll save stillwaiting, Tim, and others the time for posting this following message and I'll post it myself:
Attention: There's a new poster who supports Steve Gaines by the name of Cary! Everyone ignore him and scroll by his posts!!! Do not respond to him!
phil413: Brother Steve did call and say was sorry for anything he had done. he explained the Hezbollah deal and said he was sorry if it was taken in the wrong way etc. he did NOT call anyone Hezbollah. he used Hezbollah is their conversation.
hisservant,
I didn't say I was going to disrupt worship - I was asking if anybody had an idea on what the next step should be. tim (sorry buddy, not trying to throw you under the bus) said he was not going to stand for an applause ovation if there was one and he was going to leave before the preaching started. How is that ME causing a scene?
karen
Are you expecting the stand and pledge to actually occur?
Yes. Most will stand and then "trouble makers" like us will be run off to other churches. It is the Rick Warren method to drive away those that "resist" and consolodate power and control.
Have you read the Saddleback bylaws?
Power is what the GBC struggle was all about. Who has control... pastor or congregation? GBC had a good set of bylaws to protect their interest. BBC has a 1/2 page set of bylaws from 1929.
Saddleback bylaw money quotes:
>>> The authorized number of Directors [eg "Elders"]shall be, until changed by amendment of the Articles or Incorporation or by a Bylaw duly adopted by the members, such number as may from time to time be authorized by resolution of the Directors, provided that such number shall not be less than three (3), nor more than fifteen (15). The Directors shall consist of the Senior Pastor and Pastors as defined in Article V, Section VI. Each Director may serve successive terms and shall hold office until a successor has been designated and qualified or until earlier resignation or removal. Other than the Senior Pastor, each Director serves at the pleasure of the Senior Pastor.
>>> Members shall be removed from the Church roll for the following reasons:
1.Death
2.Transfer of membership to another church.
3.By personal request of the member.
4.Dismissal by the Pastors according to the following conditions: a.The member’s life and conduct is not in accordance with the membership covenant in such a way that the member hinders the ministry influence of the Church in the community. b.Procedures for the dismissal of a member shall be according to Matthew 18:15-17
They don't ask you to leave at Saddleback, they tell you to leave if you are not in step with the "member covenant". That is what it will be like at BBC.
HisServant said...
the word Hezbollah was used, but he did not call Mark or anyone else that. you hear what you want to hear. you might want to listen to Mark's "recording".
9:14 PM, November 15, 2006
-----------------------------
To HisServant:
Please call me. I'm sure you know how to reach me. I'd like to sit down with you and discuss this issue further in person. If you don't know how to contact me, look in the deacon's directory.
I got a call this evening with a message that someone posted a message about my conversation I had with Steve Gaines. My question to you is how do you speak of these things? Where did you get your information from?
I guess I need to set the record straight since I was there and you were not. What other things have you publicly stated that are untrue?
My cellphone rang at 11:08 that evening. I was standing in my kitchen with my wife and my neighbor also in the room. I turned the volume up for all to hear. There is no recording of the phone conversation. Why would you make this statement? Once again, who told you there was a recording of the conversation?
Steve Gaines said I was acting like Hezbollah. He called me last week to appologize for trespassing and for calling me Hezbollah. In fact he said "Hezbollah was a poor choice of words to call you. You are obviously not a middle eastern terrorist. Please accept my apology." I did so and that was that.
I'm looking forward to your call.
Mark Sharpe
Stillwaiting,
I have no problem apologizing for an error on my part. There are hundreds of posts here and I must've skimmed over that and I am sorry for that.
I retract and regret putting your name in the post...but as for Tim, my comment still stands. Hisservant is a Bellevue member and he is urging people to disregard his posts...why?
Posts from him such as, "Scroll, Scroll, Scroll, Your boat " and Did someone hear some self serving? No... I didn't think so. Are comments like that really necessary? I don't think so. Just because he disagrees with Tim doesn't make his opinion or posts any less important than those who agree with him...
stillwaitingandwatching said...
Mike,
When you are walking around out in public, and you hear various conversations going on, do you interject yourself into everyone's conversation?? If not, do you think it is right for people to interject themselves into other people's conversations simply because they are in the public and they can be heard??? Hopefully, not.
Private conversations can be held in public places. Private conversations cannot be held in public Internet forums (am I the only person who still capitalizes "Internet," by the way?).
I'm guessing you see the difference between the two situations.
--Mike
this Rick Warren stuff is SOOOOOOOOOOOO funny!
stillwaiting said:
Okay, Cary, so now, my next question is....are you a member of BBC???
Yes, I am...
Love you, Mark Sharpe!
Karen
Mark: I did not state the right information about the recording and I sorry for that. very sorry. i did know about you playing it out load and I said recording incorrectly. i have been complaining about rumors etc and I know this is exactly how they start and again I am sorry for stating incorrect facts. i meant nothing by it, but that does not make it right. it really added nothing to my point and did not need to even be included. again, sorry
choice,
I love it! BUT I just got a new job and I'm going to bed.
Psalm 121:4 "Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep."
But I do! :)
Love to you all, Karen
Phil413,
I don't think you need any help.
The biggest problem all along has been a lack of truth. I may be too much of a black and white kind of person. Ask a question and get a truthful response. Whatever the truth is, deal with it and don't try and twist it or cover it up. Not telling the whole truth will always come back to haunt you.
Another day or two and I should be back to my old self. Thanks, Mark
no, not at all. the "recording" meant nothing and was a mistake on my part. i said I was sorry.
i meant the "recording" meant nothing to the purpose of my post. it was a mistake.
so, are you coming back to Bellevue Mark?
HisServant said...
this Rick Warren stuff is SOOOOOOOOOOOO funny!
I agree...PDC, PDL is the most ridiculous garbage to come down the fad-laden pike...unless of course it comes to your church...then it becomes destructive. It's trademarked Christian junk food.
hisservant,
Apology accepted.
I will wait for your call.
Mark
hisservant,
I didn't know I had left?
Another statement you need to correct.
the wrong fellow? try, Brother Steve, MY PASTOR. i am SO happy God brought him here
Mark: i simply meant coming back to bellevue all together. 100%. sunday school, service, etc etc etc. involved like you were 2 years ago. i was not going off anything I have been told
choice,
Your contention that "hisservant" is Steve Gaines doesn't add up. Steve Gaines was scheduled to preach at the morning session of the TBC this morning. If they were on schedule, the music began at 11:15, Dr. Gaines then preached, and Chuck Taylor gave the benediction at noon (and I'd guess if they were running true to Baptist form, Chuck didn't "benedict" until sometime in the early p.m. "Hisservant" posted a comment at 11:58 this morning according to the blog clock which is approximately 7 minutes fast. That means Steve Gaines would have had to be in two places at the same time -- or blogging from the pulpit. My bet is neither.
NASS
those same things could have also been resolved without this blog.
i already said I was not Brother Steve
But then your statement could be accurate, yet not true...right?
using slander, libel a scare tactic? why? i could care less about scaring anyone.
so this site is not full of both? is that what you are saying?
Just a little humor..no offense..I'm sure this would be about the last place Dr. Gaines would come to.
sw&w wrote:
"Can we agree that outsiders serve no purpose but to thwart dialogue between the BBC church family?"
Actually, I must disagree with this statement -- at least under some circumstances. There have been some "outsiders" who have left thoughtful, insightful comments and moved on. I've also received some personal e-mails from "outsiders" who have been nothing but polite and respectful. All but one were supportive, and you can guess the tone of the unsupportive one. That's not to say that only comments from those sympathetic to "our side" (ugly word) are welcome. The premise of this forum is that we can disagree without being disagreeable. That's why "Pastor Dave" and "hisservant" (in spite of the fact that he's a BBC member) are wearing out their welcome. Both have said what they have to say over and over and over and over and in not so nice tones. We get it, okay? I've seen little useful commentary from either of you and am on the verge of deleting your future posts if you don't tone down the rhetoric. If you can't play by the rules, and don't tell me I'm not being "fair" because I don't call out people on the "other side" (ugly word again) for their "HORRIBLE" comments (because I have), then don't play.
We know you're not Steve Gaines. I never thought you were, and you did indeed clear that up yourself earlier. NASS just wanted to present the evidence for the benefit of any who might not take you at your word.
Now, did we ever determine if you're a Bellevue deacon or staff member?
NBBCOF
regarding the Rick Warren stuff. so do you think there are any circumstances in which members should be removed from a church?
HisServant said...
Mark: i simply meant coming back to bellevue all together. 100%. sunday school, service, etc etc etc. involved like you were 2 years ago. i was not going off anything I have been told
10:53 PM, November 15, 2006
CAN YOU PLEASE JUST FOR ONCE MAKE A CORRECT STATEMENT
Why do you say "involved like you were 2 years ago"? How about 6 months ago? In my book there is a difference of 18 months. I know it seems like it's been that long to you as well. When you call me tomorrow, I'll remind you of my family's involvement as recently as May of 2006, not November of 2004.
Why does everything have to have a spin on it.
To cjesusinme,
Thank you for your kind words and prayers. My family loves you more than you know.
Becasue He lives,
Mark Sharpe
And as I live and breathe... an actual comment from Mr. Sharpe?
You know, after I got over my initial surprise, I took the opportunity to read what you wrote. After you posed a question to another poster, yet didn't give that poster a chance to respond, I came across this:
What other things have you publicly stated that are untrue?
Mr. Sharpe, is that a question you should be asking any other human being?
I couldn't help but note that you mentioned, in passing, that Pastor Gaines personally apologized last week for hopping your fence to come visit you, and for equating your actions with those of Hezbollah.
We hear about the supposed evils of Pastor Gaines, of the Bellevue senior staff and of lay leadership. We read that Pastor Gaines has LIED... or, uh, well, maybe not. We see Sunday morning characterized as some sort of Sergio Leone "Showdown." We see the deacons who are willing to do what deacons do--support their pastor--compared to Fascists in masks, complete with Hitleresque salute.
Yet we don't get to see a headline here, at the so-called "saving Bellevue" site, or in the local media that Pastor Gaines apologized personally to you? Why in the world would you keep something like that under wraps? We presumably know every other peeve you have with the Bellevue staff--what could possibly have kept you for a week from actually sharing a bit of what would presumably be good news?
You, Mr. Sharpe, are part of a nascent movement that uses hate and confrontation as its main tools. Whether you meant it to be so or not does not matter; it is time for you, Mr. Haywood, and the other principals to pull the plug before the movement does more damage. It has come to the point where otherwise good-hearted and gentle people are being duped into passing along lies about Bellevue being "investigated," and wondering what the best way might be to protest during a worship service.
You can reach me privately via e-mail if you so choose, or you can respond here--or not at all. Nevertheless, you and yours need to pack up this so-called "saving Bellevue" business once and for all; closing up your shop is something that's long overdue. It injures many, and benefits no one (although that depends on how you define the word "benefit").
--Mike
in the last 3 days, when have you called out anyone else for what they posted?? do you read all the posts?? i seen a few that have been WAY over the line and I did not hear a word said about it.
you and others have an issue with david and i simply because we have stood up to the rumors and what this blog is all about and you do not like that.
i knew this time would come. to try and silence me or someone else. how ironic. you and all on this board claim you are not being heard and want to be, but you are now threatening to silence someone. strange don't you think.
not so nice way? please tell me how david and I have not been nice.
others on this board disrespect Brother Steve and his family and many others every day. david and i were threaten bya poster that if we did not stop, this person would buy radio spots etc etc to spread what is going on at Bellevue from here to Birmingham. i could go on and on all night. name calling and refering to Brother Steve and others in very disrespectful hurtful ways.
but david and I are the ones not posting nice? I have been SUPER nice in responding to things posted and thrown at me.
you are mad that someone is ruining your "party". you just want the one side told and for everyone to be able to feed off each other.
Mark said:
CAN YOU PLEASE JUST FOR ONCE MAKE A CORRECT STATEMENT
First of all, there's no need for you to yell. Next, it seems like you're reading hisservant's posts with a defensive attitude....like you're anticipating an attack. Whether it feels this way or not, even though people may disagree with you on certain issues, we're not all out to get you. :-)
So how is hisservant's post incorrect? Were you not attending Sunday School, the services, etc. 2 years ago? What difference does it make...6 months, 2 years...10 years?
And seeing how you didn't answer the question, that's something I'd like to know as well. Praying for you, bro!
Thank you Mark Sharpe. We don't know each other, but I know your reputation. I'm praying for you and your family. Thank you for speaking for Truth at great cost to yourself and your loved ones.
NASS,
Your request has been granted, but now are you sure that there are not times that it really might be quite appropriate and useful. :)
Mark: i SEE that you deal in black and white. i am not going to say I am sorry for posting 2 years instead of 6 months. this is already getting ridiculous. VERY. i posted 2 years because I had no idea when you stopped and I was trying to post a "safe" number. i sure hope you are not dealing with all your concerns like this. if you are, that could be a BIG part of the problem.
i guess because I made a mistake earlier, you think you can treat me however. not the case!!
you posted you did not know you left. so what has been going on the last 6 months?
so you still believe I am Brother Steve? you must be kidding.
thank you Cary, I thought it was that simple also. if Mark is treating all of his concerns and issues he has had over the last whenever like he is treating this stuff with me, no wonder we are where we are today. he is LOOKING for problems and possible "mistakes" and splitting hairs.
Mark, I believe if you are going about everything in this matter, you and many others will never get over this stuff. you will never be satisfied. you will always be able to find something "wrong". always
wonderful Bible study in the morning. got to get to bed soon. it is a great time and a true blessing
tim wrote:
"Your request has been granted, but now are you sure that there are not times that it really might be quite appropriate and useful. :)"
Thank you, Tim. Oh, yes. You are correct. We still don't have to stoop to "their" level though. Now, I hope you don't mind me using you as an "example" to one of our less observant brothers.
Note to "hisservant": That was an example of me "calling out" someone on "our side" for something he posted. Difference is I was able to e-mail him privately about it and give him the opportunity to take care of it himself. Unfortunately, you and I haven't had the pleasure of private correspondence. Not saying I want to {shudder}, just that we haven't. So that's just one example. I'm sure you could find a few others by perusing the comments in other threads, but most have been handled as this one was -- privately.
So which is it? Deacon or staff member. Your silence on that one little detail speaks volumes!
NBBCOF
Hisservant,
I'm sorry for the two year comment. I thought you knew I resigned from teaching on Mother's Day of this year. That day was a very hard day for our family, especially our daughter.
I look forward to your call tomorrow. Hopefully we can sit down and talk soon.
Hope you have a peaceful night.
Mark
choice_is_yours said...
Mike Bratton, Marke Sharpe,
You guys have both been here all along usng other names, IMHO.
I cannot speak for Mr. Sharpe, but I have never posted "here all along" as anyone but my own self, thanks.
--Mike
choice,
Would you please e-mail me? I promise not to look at your IP address, not that I would know what to do with it if I saw it! I couldn't care less who you are, and my nickname isn't Yogi or Smokey!
Thanks,
NBBCOF
hisservant said
REPLY: what a sad post. just more slander and junk. it is unreal how disrespectful you and others are being toward Brother Steve our PASTOR and others. simply unreal. PLEASE stop posting these feel good sayings and "in love" etc etc etc etc etc. it is obvious they are just words and not sincere. one second someone posts one of those and the next the same person posts a post full of anger.
some make posts making light of the same VERY SERIOUS rumors and slander you base your entire argument on. are they serious or are they a joke at the expense of someone else??? I think the Bible is crystal clear on that.
who are his lackies?? just more disrespectful slander and anger.
NO, I am not Brother Steve. how ridiculous.
9:11 PM, November 15, 2006
Reply:
Slander? Don't you mean libel? Was I joking? No. I really was wondering if you were SG. I understand that you are not SG. But that doesn't contradict the fact that I was wondering if you were him. I didn't say you were him.
You seem to be really bothered by the word lackies. What do I mean? I'm talking about those close to SG who have done his dirty work of intimidation and cover-ups. You know the men who have made every excuse in the book for SG's bad behavior and decisions... such as YOU would understand...
So the question is, are you one of his lackies? Do you work for SG? I'm sorry but again, I'm just wondering. And no! This is not a rumor. I'm outright asking you.
Mark Sharpe,
We don't know each other but thank you for chiming in and telling us about SG's apology. It's good to hear that there is hope for reconciliation. I pray for you and your family. Thank you for your courage.
In Christ,
A.
Mike, you’ve a rather glaring problem: You used a temporal argument against Sharpe (accusing him of not airing the fact of Dr. Gaines’ apology until a week after it was issued) while at the same time you’ve failed to note that Dr Gaines took months to make things right on the Hezbollah comment. I think I’ve used this term in reference to you before: lack of intellectual integrity—you pick and choose.
Further, I wasn’t aware that it’s the responsibility of the one wronged to make the apology known. Indeed, I suspect that had Mr Sharpe done just that, you’d have crowed at him for bragging that he got the preacher to cave on an issue—but perhaps I’m wrong.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the onus is usually on the person who has committed the wrong to make sure that it is righted and if necessary to make such correction public. We don’t have spouses who have been cheated on come before the church to say that they’ve forgiven the cheater.
Finally, the folks on this side call each other down when we get out of line. Most of us also do not support the posting of the sort of photo and headline you’ve chortled about recently. You however, refer to a savingbellevue playbook, paint us as hate-mongers, and discount any scripture that doesn’t suit you—the mere existence of my writing and a massive amount of other writing here and elsewhere debunks each of those broadly-fired, incorrect accusations but you violate your own position by not apologizing. The lack of intellectual integrity is staggering.
For the last five posters who commented this morning:
Thank you. Wise words all!
NASS smiles.
rs wrote:
"Finally - this is ddirected at hisservant (Chuck)... "
Now, don't stutter. Heh heh. I was thinking the same thing (_____).
We still haven't heard him say whether he's a deacon or a staff member, but he's denied neither. The silence is hurting my ears!
NASS
QUESTION:
Did the pastor ever state or say to anyone that he did not call Mark Sharpe Hezbollah?
Did any Bellevue staff ever say that the pastor did not call Mark Sharpe Hezbollah?
If he did, where did he gets his informaion?
Did anyone on this blog ever say that the pastor did not call Mark Sharpe Hezbollah?
If any of the answers above are yes, then whoever said this told a lie and that lie extends from the person is was told to, to the world who has followed this pathectic story.
If there is a person in a leadership position at the church who lies is that ok with Bellevue?
Please just stick to the Hezzbollah statement when answering these questions on lying and please give real evidence when answering.
QUESTION:
Were members of Bellevue chastised by the pastor, staff, or deacons for asking question about the fence or Hezzbollah incident?
We`re members ever asked to leave the church for asking questions about this or anything else?
Has anyone here told anyone of to be the bad guy because they had concerns about the above?
Did any members leave Bellevue because of this.
If the answers to any of the above is Yes, then, the integrity of Bellevue has been compromised and/or member`s have been mistreated.
Please do not included any other subjects in your answer and give evidence if you give an answer.
I will have to admit that when our local ABC station gave a news tickler last night that "there was a large Memphis church under federal investigation", I had to cringe.
This financial business is scary folks. While the church in question was not BBC, which was a relief, it is only a matter of time if we do not get these financial and other issues resolved.
The leadership needs to quit dodging bullets and put on the whole armor of God. Have a business meeting, take the consequenses, regardless of who is responsible, and lets be done with it!
U-Turn,
OK I'll say it.
The pastor did not call Mark Sharpe Hezzbollah.
Would you like a source? How about Mark Sharpe?
"Steve Gaines said I was acting like Hezzbollah."
Not "you are Hezzbollah" but "you are acting like Hezzbollah."
Important distinction.
Hezzbollah bases itself among hospitals, schools, and other places where there are innocents. Why? They have no regard for the fact that what they are doing will cause innocents to be harmed.
Regardless of the motives of those who are publicly prosecuting their grievances against Steve Gaines and BBC, they are doing it without regard for the damage it will do to those who are lost.
The words are hurtful no doubt, but sadly the analogy fits.
Ignoring all that though, it is those who have oft repeated the "Steve Gaines called Mark Sharpe Hezzobollah" who have spread misinformation in this case.
Robert
QUESTION:
Did the pastor or any of his staff intimidate Dr. James Whitmire?
Did the pastor or any of his staff cause Dr. James Whitmire to leave Bellevue?
Did the pastor or any of his staff belittle Dr. James Whitmire or question his worship style?
Did the pastor or any of his staff cover up the real reasons for Dr. James Whitmire`s departure?
Did the pastor or any of his staff ever say that Dr. James Whitmire left for reasons other than being asked to go?
What reasons were given to the members of Bellevue for Dr. James Whitmire`s departure>
Did the associate pastor. strip the Minister of Music title from Dr. James Whitmire?
Did the associate pastor ever use his authority to undercut Dr.Jim Whitmire`s authority and make the working environment horrible for him?
Did the associate pastor, force Dr. James Whitmire to use the Praise Team full time against his wishes.
Did Dr. James Whitmire ask the pastor to allow him to stay at Bellevue until after the Southern Baptist Convention in June of this year? And if so, Did the pastor say NO?
Did the pastor or his staff ever tell Dr. James Whitmire that he did not know how to worship?
Did the pastor or his staff ever tell Dr. James Whitmire to stop waving his hands when he lead the music at Bellevue?
Please do not answer these questions unless you have the evidence to back up your answer.
Please do not include any other subject matter in your answer on these questiona
Robmar,
Regardless of the exact words he used, there is little qualitative difference. Both are inappropriate for the pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church.
It is just that kind of Clintonian hair-splitting argument by our leadership that has driven a wedge right through our church.
We might as well argue over what the meaning of "is" is.
New BBC Open Forum said...
sw&w wrote:
"Can we agree that outsiders serve no purpose but to thwart dialogue between the BBC church family?"
Actually, I must disagree with this statement -- at least under some circumstances. There have been some "outsiders" who have left thoughtful, insightful comments and moved on.
Thank You NBBCOF for allowing for those of us who are not Bellevue Members to strike a thought or 2.
My Feeble Thoughts: I thought that we are one body of Christ. Bellevue is unique in that its peripheral ministries allow "outsiders" to share in the supper along with you may it be in attendance, radio, computer or TV. Personally one place does not fit all my needs and I find myself going to a few places to feed my soul. I do apologize for not coming through the front gate.
Bellevue is in my prayers and many of time I have thought of joining. Perhaps I will join in the future.
Let me personally Apologize to Pastor Gains for not executing Matthew 18 with him personally before engaging in this forum(i realized this indirectly from a post). I spent much of yesterday wondering how I was going to clear my conscience over this. It is hard and yet it is easy. I am sorry and I must honestly seek him out to tell him so. I say this not to undercut the purpose if this site, not to say that I dont have similar opinions - I only say this because I was wrong in my spirit if not so much in my words.
Please pray for me as I do for you - Mark
From a sermon I heard this morning: 1 Peter 7 These trials are only to test your faith, to show that it is strong and pure. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—and your faith is far more precious to God than mere gold. So if your faith remains strong after being tried by fiery trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.
QUESTIONS:
Did the pastor or any of his staff ever say that Mark Sharpe was acting like Hezzbollah.
Did any Bellevue staff ever say that the pastor did not call Mark Sharpe Hezbollah?
If he did, where did he gets his informaion?
Did anyone on this blog ever say that the pastor did not call Mark Sharpe Hezbollah?
If any of the answers above are yes, then whoever said this told a lie and that lie extends from the person is was told to, to the world who has followed this pathectic story.
If there is a person in a leadership position at the church who lies is that ok with Bellevue?
Please just stick to the Hezzbollah statement when answering these questions on lying and please give real evidence when answering.
QUESTIUNS:
Did the pastor or his staff ever have the locks changed
to prevent Dr. Adrian Rogers from coming into the pastor's suite
Did the pastor or his staff do anyting to disrespect Dr. Adrian Rogers before his death.
Did the pastor or his staff disrepect the Rogers family at any time?
Has anyone in the Rogers family been harmed by the pastor or anyone or his staff.
If the answer ot any of the above is yes, then Bellevue Baptist Church and the Christian world has been dishonored.
If Bellevue has been dishonored in this way, is this ok with the membership?
Please do not answer these questions unless you have the evidence to back up your answer.
Please do not include any other subject matter in your answer on these questiona
Telos,
Amen & Amen. It's better to be called a brother than it is to be called a Troll....
I will pray for you!
QUESTIONS:
Did the pastor or his staff ever state that Craig Parker had no concerns with the financial integrity of Bellevue?
Did the pastor or his staff ever try to intimidate Craig Parker?
Did the pastor or his staff ever disrespect or humiliate Craig Parker?
Did the pastor or his staff ever try to destroy the credibility of Craig Parker?
Did Craig Parker and his family leave Bellevue Baptist Church because they were mistreated by the pastor or his staff?
Did the pastor or his staff
ever tell anyone why Craig Parker left the church?
Did the pastor or his staff
ever try to hide the reason why Criag Parker left the church?
Did the pastor or his staff really meet Craig Parker at a restaurant a few weeks ago>
Did the pastor or his staff
apologize to Craig Parker for damage that was done to him and his family?
If so, what does the membership know about the damage done to Craig Parker?
Did the pastor or his staff make an announcement after the restuarant meeting ( if there was one), and state that Craig Parker has no problems with the finaniclal integrity at Bellevue?
Where is Craig Parker now and why?
Please do not answer these questions unless you have the evidence to back up your answer.
Please do not include any other subject matter in your answer on these questiona
housewife: no I do not work for Brother Steve. No, i am not a "yes man" and no, I am not a blind follower of him or anyone else. never have been and never will be.
libel, yes. have you EVER EVER EVER discussed these same issues with someone in person? same question to everyone else. i would say that 99% on this blog has done so. that is slander.
if some want to try and make themselves feel better by reading the definition of slander out of some law book to try and justify themselves go right ahead. do you really that God looks at libel and slander in a different way? and again, most are guilty of slander anyway.
cover-ups?? facts?
QUESTION:
Is Bellevue Baptist Church currently endorsing and selling Rick Warren`s books at their inhouse library?
Is there any evidence to date which shows that Bellevue is on the Purpose Driven Church path?
If so, what is the evidence?
Please do not answer these questions unless you have the evidence to back up your answer.
Please do not include any other subject matter in your answer on these questiona
It has become painfully obvious that there is a figurative black cloud at Bellevue. The whole atmosphere has changed. We were always large. But somehow, I never felt the coldness that I now feel. I can't help to wonder where everyone stands.
Again, it's a figurative dark feeling. And I have honestly come to the conclusion that relief will only come if Gains respectfully and humbly resigns from our midst so we may find another pastor, heal and move on. I just hope the Search Committee pays attention this time. But I doubt Gains will leave in any form other than kicking and screaming.
This is sad. It's like we're stuck and those who are supposed to help us won't. That's why we feel we must do all the work ourselves. This blog is but one way.
Keep praying for us,
A.
hisservant said:
housewife: no I do not work for Brother Steve. No, i am not a "yes man" and no, I am not a blind follower of him or anyone else. never have been and never will be.
libel, yes. have you EVER EVER EVER discussed these same issues with someone in person? same question to everyone else. i would say that 99% on this blog has done so. that is slander.
if some want to try and make themselves feel better by reading the definition of slander out of some law book to try and justify themselves go right ahead. do you really that God looks at libel and slander in a different way? and again, most are guilty of slander anyway.
cover-ups?? facts?
Reply:
Actually, no. I have not slandered since I have not spoken to anyone about this. I am not interested in gossiping. I am not, however, afraid to ask about facts of those who know.
Unfortunately, this is the only way we have been able to see all that has happened. I'm sure that if it was up to SG, NOBODY would have EVER found out how he and his lackies treated Brother Jim Whitmire and other dear brothers and sisters (Mark, Pam, others - still praying for you). Talk about SHAME!!!!
Even though you deny being a "yes man" (as you put it, not me) for SG, you still haven't told us if you are a deacon or work in SG's administration. Interesting.
If you're still asking for facts and cover-ups, then it is sadly obvious you just don't want to hear or read about them. Plenty of people who know better than I have stated many facts and cover-up information. I'll let them tell it since I wasn't there. And btw, I'm glad I wasn't. Why would I want to go through that again? (I went through similar "stuff" from a different pastor. And no, it wasn't Pastor Rogers. I have nothing but respect for him.)
Either way, it doesn't mean this doesn't affect me and other members who have not personally suffered at the hands of SG. This is still our family and we all hurt right now.
A.
Custos said...
Mike, you’ve a rather glaring problem: You used a temporal argument against Sharpe (accusing him of not airing the fact of Dr. Gaines’ apology until a week after it was issued) while at the same time you’ve failed to note that Dr Gaines took months to make things right on the Hezbollah comment. I think I’ve used this term in reference to you before: lack of intellectual integrity—you pick and choose.
Your opinion is subjective and unfounded.
The so-called "saving Bellevue" cadre is quick-on-the-draw with every bit of slander and gossip--so quick that it often has to retract its slurs before too many people can see or read them.
But when there's a bit good news to be shared, it takes a week? And it's only shared incidentally, rather than in red 24-point font headlines?
No. It is a clear double standard, and one I'm waiting for Mr. Sharpe to address, thanks.
And if I may be so bold, the evidence of the past few months tells me that Pastor Gaines didn't really have much for which he needed to apologize. Since he apparently has (more than once, now), I respect that--but constant propaganda attacks and the objectification of the "enemy" don't do much to discount the original comparison.
Further, I wasn’t aware that it’s the responsibility of the one wronged to make the apology known. Indeed, I suspect that had Mr Sharpe done just that, you’d have crowed at him for bragging that he got the preacher to cave on an issue—but perhaps I’m wrong.
No "perhaps" about it--you are wrong.
If one styles oneself as a reporter, there comes with that the responsibility to tell both the bad news and the good. If it's a big deal that Pastor Gaines hasn't apologized, or that Pastor Gaines hasn't apologized in the right way, it's an equally big deal when Pastor Gaines does offer an apology that's accepted.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the onus is usually on the person who has committed the wrong to make sure that it is righted and if necessary to make such correction public. We don’t have spouses who have been cheated on come before the church to say that they’ve forgiven the cheater.
Sorry, your attempt at an analogy was DOA. If the cheat-ee and the associates of the cheat-ee have been giving near-daily updates on the cheater's offenses, both real and imagined, the cheat-ee and associates need to be as equitable in relating when the cheater's done something right.
Of course, in no way would I presume to equate Pastor Gaines to an unfaithful spouse. I could use that analogy and make some associations, but that would take us away from the issues at hand.
Finally, the folks on this side call each other down when we get out of line.
"On this side"? You do realize, do you not, that the existence of an anti-Bellevue group such as this doesn't automatically mean the presence of two "sides"?
Most of us also do not support the posting of the sort of photo and headline you’ve chortled about recently.
"Chortled"? Those bits of hate didn't make me laugh, they nauseated me and brought me to tears.
And as of yet, no one has apologized for that Fascist photograph--and it's been a week.
You however, refer to a savingbellevue playbook, paint us as hate-mongers, and discount any scripture that doesn’t suit you—
1) You're working from the playbook now, by attacking individuals rather than ideas or worldviews.
2) After enough weeks of watching the overall behavior, it is a two-pronged attack of hate and confrontation. Reconciliation plays a weak second fiddle to the melody of "throw the bum out!"
3) I'm guessing you don't have any specific examples of my discounting Scripture. If you feel you do, by all means share them; if I've done anything that legitimately gives such an impression, I'd like to know about it.
the mere existence of my writing and a massive amount of other writing here and elsewhere debunks each of those broadly-fired, incorrect accusations but you violate your own position by not apologizing.
To coin a phrase, it's not about you. However, "your writing" is one of the primary examples of such nonsense.
The lack of intellectual integrity is staggering.
There's a juicy little example right there, which you were kind enough to wield twice in the same epistle. Thanks for providing it.
--Mike
QUESTIONS:
Did the current Administrator at Bellevue tell Mark Sharpe the he had some real concerns over the finanical integrity being compromised at Bellevie?
Did Mark Sharpe believe the administrator and try to do something about the situation?
Were the Administrator and his family friends with Mark Sharpe and his family?
Did the Administrator and his family visit the Sharpe home and swim in their pool?
Did the Administrator and his family take care of Mark Sharpe`s pool which the Sharpe`s went on vacation?
Did the Administrator decide to leave Bellevue after sharing his own worries over the financial intergrity of Bellevue with Mark Sharpe?
Did he leave his position at Bellevue for another position?
Did he later return to Bellevue as the Aministrator?
Did he or his wife deny ever being friends with the Sharpes after he found out how serious Mark Sharpe and others were about the church being held accountable for the finances?
Did the Administrator tell Mark Sharpe about the Ruth Chris Steak Restaurant concern?
Did Mark Sharpe get much of his information in financial concerns from the Administrator of Bellevue Baptist Church?
Did the Administrator of Bellevue Baptist Church recieve a raise in salary to return to Bellevue?
Is Mark Sharpe the fall man for the Administrator of Bellevue Baptist Church?
Has anyone ever confronted the Administrator of Bellevue Baptist Church for any matter related to the above questions?
Please do not answer these questions unless you have the evidence to back up your answer.
Please do not include any other subject matter in your answer on these questiona
RS posted: Finally - this is ddirected at hisservant (Chuck) - Are you going to apologize to all of us for stating the Pastor "never called Mark Hezobollah"? He not only offended Mark, but all of us who stood with Mark. Did you go to Mark and ask him what he said, did you check things out before making your statement? Clearly you did not.
REPLY: I am NOT CHUCK or Brother Steve etc etc etc etc etc. i did nothing and no I am not going to say I am sorry for something someone else might or might not have done. what would an "i an sorry" from me do? you have the audacity to demand an apology from someone??? when are you and others going to apologize for the libel, slander, etc etc??? WOW
i told MARK I was sorry for the the incorrect statement I made about the recording. and said I was sorry. at this time, I am not going to apologize for anything else.
who was first to make the FALSE accusation and got their "facts" WAY OFF about the $400 Ruth's Chris charge and many financial deals?? where that first "report" come from?
mom4: what financial issues still remain?
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