Just goes to show you can take the $314,000 and run, but you can't escape your past.
The Tennessean > Two Rivers' ex-pastor sues accuser
As one commenter said, "The great thing about this lawsuit is that this Harris guy will now be able to demand detailed info from Sutton and the church and maybe the truth will finally come out. Of course, any incriminating evidence has probably been thrown in the church dumpster by now."
FBC Jax Watchdog > Liberty and SWBTS: You're on the clock! What will you do with Sutton?
The original "Two Rivers Info" site no longer exists, but their Facebook Group is still up.
Photo © Associated Press
Dr. Sutton would have maintained the high ground of 1 Cor 6 by not filing a suit. He could still withdraw the suit.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I do not see battling these issues out on the internet (a public medium) as high ground either. It does not fit the spirit of the injunction of 1 Cor 6.
Both Geese and Ganders need to open The Book.
Dr. Steve J
Dr. Steve J,
ReplyDeleteScripturally speaking, it would have been wise for Dr. Sutton, et al, to have abided by Matthew 18 and none of this would have ever been in the "public medium" at all. It would also be wise if you "ministers" policed your own instead of covering for their misdeeds and abuses.
And whose misdeeds and abuses have I covered?
ReplyDeleteDr. Steve J,
ReplyDeleteI am not going into a tit for tat with you over this, but I do wonder if you addressed any of the issues revolving around Dr. Sutton or Dr. Gaines with them personally? If not, then, yes, you have been part of the problem with these issues being in the public forum. I can almost bet that if you had attempted to address the matter with either of these men, you would have been told to "bug off", as we were.
I heard LWF has the Adrian Rogers Legacy Bible in stock now.
ReplyDeleteAdrian Rogers Legacy Bible
"Can't we all just get along?"
ReplyDelete--- Rodney King
Why?
ReplyDeleteBecause today we have a clergy that seeks its own selfish desires. We forget the lessons our fathers taught us. Instead, we accept what we see on television as being right and true.
Time was a man who had to be a member of a country club was disqualified from the pastorate at Bellevue. We were taught that the pastor should live like his congregation and be a man of the people but today’s clergyman expects a compensation package at least in the six figure range, if not higher.
Today’s clergyman expects to be reimbursed for what are clearly personal expenses if it only remotely involves church business.
Today’s clergyman is not satisfied with meals at mid priced restaurants but must entertain his friends at the best, highest priced restaurants in town.
Today’s clergyman demands absolute loyalty to him, the church is about him after all, the members are only necessary for the clergyman to accomplish his desires.
To accomplish this, come in and lay low for about a year then create a crisis, this will divide the congregation. Those who are loyal to you will rally to your defense and stay.
Brand those who question you as trouble makers and command those who are not loyal to leave, sure some will stay but they are meaningless. The vast majority will have those left sign loyalty oaths at least once.
Test this loyalty further, at the start of the service, call people to the front saying it’s and act of submission, this too shows who is loyal to the preacher.
Whenever possible work giving and tithing into your sermons; spend a whole month of sermons on it for that matter.
When challenged call on your other big name, overpaid friends to come to your defense. “People are questioning my salary and my expense account,” you proclaim, “I am being attacked, help me.” Then let your friends tell everyone how bad these people are for questioning your big hearted preacher.
Create a Communications Committee and say it is to hear the concerns of the members even though that is a lie. The Communication Committee’s only purpose is to dictate to the members what the preacher has decided and to berate any who object.
Today’s clergyman spends the church’s money for wildly extravagant projects under the guise of presenting the gospel to the lost which as we all know seldom if ever works. Sure, people come forward and are baptized but most go into the water dry sinners and come out wet sinners.
Evangelism is discipleship and discipleship is a deeply personal and intense commitment. As we were taught a church only needs these kinds of projects when it does not have a witness for Christ.
Today’s clergyman uses church business meetings only to announce what the leadership has decided will be done. There is no regard for the rules of calling meetings or properly conducting business meetings or presenting resolutions or voting. We just do it our way.
Today’s clergy man only allows the discussion he thinks is appropriate and prevents others from speaking by cutting of the microphone and abruptly and inappropriately ending the meeting.
More can be said, hope this helps with why.
To All My Democrat Friends:
ReplyDeletePlease accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2010, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere. Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wisher.
To My Republican Friends:
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Tell me, when you and your wife disagree and you are known the discuss things very emphatically, what scripture do your reference? Do you rebuke her as well? Do you call her a sinner or say that she is unsaved for not agreeing with you? If you did, how do you think it would work out for you?
ReplyDeleteI think "Christians" have gotten so used to airing their dirty laundry - the fact that it is quite truly dirty laundry is lost on many.
ReplyDeleteI didn't realize Sutton was at Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. So I did some checking. He is doing administrative work there. And filled in as a guest lecturer.
ReplyDeleteDirty laundry is still dirty and needs cleaning whether it is aired or not.
ReplyDeleteWishIhadknown -
ReplyDeleteYou are correct.
And to be certain, I did not mean to imply that it was wrong to air dirty laundry. I was speaking more to the lost state of the "Christian" community than anything.
To cover over the garbage in churches is what has led to this colossal mess in the first place.
I confess I often cringe at the use of websites to shred some people. And I do think that even speaking the truth sometimes we need to take it down a notch in how we proclaim that truth about someone. (I know I have been guilty of being distinctly lacking in the grace arena.) But if the churches would quit acting like an organized crime family - and quit "whacking" church members who told the family shame - it wouldn't have to be done this way.
And to that as I sit here in my casual clothes, listening to contemporary music, I raise my right hand and proclaim amen and amen.
ReplyDeleteWorse than the shredding on the internet is the shredding done from the pulpit! And the dirty laundry airing from the pulpit.
ReplyDeleteOh wait, I'm sorry. I should have said podium since we do not have pulpits anymore. Don't want to scare away any of those seekers by appearing to be a church or church like anymore. Too old fashioned afterall.
ReplyDeleteWish,
ReplyDeleteYour 2:26 p.m. comment was one of the most astute and succinct summaries of the events of the past four years I've read in the 3+ years this blog has existed. Thank you!
"Whenever possible work giving and tithing into your sermons; spend a whole month of sermons on it for that matter."
A month? He's already been harping on that subject a month, and it's not even January yet. If you'll recall, he spent most of the first three months of 2009 on that very subject. Even some of his most ardent supporters were complaining.
"I raise my right hand and proclaim amen and amen."
What? Just your right hand? Get with the program, man! Get both those paws in the air!
Wish,
ReplyDeleteAfter reading your post about the clergy... I need a raise. Ir maybe you need to find a different church. There are still pastors around.
Drstevej
Drstevej,just shooting down a barrel good to know your not in it but there are plenty who are and they are not just at Bellevue. No body knows the 1040's I've seen!
ReplyDeleteWish,
ReplyDeleteYou should appreciate this.
Nass - that article made me laugh.
ReplyDeleteI was at a lunch recently and two of the individuals were arguing over which was better - contemporary or traditional. THe one (who favored contemporary) said, "I'll tell you this, when my mother died, I wasn't singing "How Great Thou Art" depsite the fact I have been singing that for the past 5 decades. It was the contemporary song I learned last week in church that came to my mind."
The other lady without missing a beat said, "Of course you did, you sang that one line 100 times in the span of one day, it was all your brain could hold."
Yes, my brother, I have to agree with that one and raise my left hand in agreement. At least, I think it's the left hand for agreement? I’m so confused! I guess I'll have to consult my contemporary worship guide in my suit coat pocket. Oh wait, I don’t have a suit coat pocket since I’m not wearing a suit. Why does worship have to be so complicated now?
ReplyDeleteWish,
ReplyDeleteIt is the left hand of agreement. It has to be. The other is the "right hand of Christian fellowship."
Happy to clear that up for you.
MJM
It is the left hand of agreement. It has to be. The other is the "right hand of Christian fellowship."
ReplyDeleteOh, of course! Duh. Which hand do I slap my forehead with?
"No body knows the 1040's I've seen!"
ReplyDeleteI'm humming along already . . . (to the tune of "Nobody knows the trouble I've seen").
But seriously . . . thinking of money and tax matters . . . how can state and national denominational officials keep their compensation packages secret and avoid compliance with nonprofit disclosure laws on the basis that the denominational entities are "churches" when, for purposes of exercising any sort of oversight for Baptist clergy, denominational entities claim they're powerless because all the ministers are connected ONLY to the local churches? If the denominational entities don't have any ministers, how can they be "churches" for purposes of avoiding nonprofit disclosure laws? Wish, any insights on this?
After reading your post about the clergy... I need a raise. Ir maybe you need to find a different church. There are still pastors around.
ReplyDeleteDrstevej
9:39 PM, December 17, 2009
DrSteve, They ALL say that. As a matter of fact, I could go eons without hearing another whiny pastor tell me how hard he has it. Try the real world for a change.
In addition, I know this was not taught at seminary but 'pastor' is a spiritual gift mentioned once in the NT. I am not aware of other spiritual gifts being paid positions within the Body in the early church. Pastors seems to have been elevated to a man made "office" since the days Constantine legalized Christianity. Now, it is a career choice. (Office is not in the Greek, either)
So, to try and tell us we should not discuss wolves masquerading as 'pastors' on the internet and warn folks is a bit ridiculous.
It would be in YOUR best interests if such things never came to light. I do take that into consideration. However, a preacher/seminary administrator suing his former congregants is in the PUBLIC news. But, according to you, it should not be discussed on the internet. Quite brilliant.
Brothers and sisters! I am so glad to have found this site. You people are doing a great service to society by spreading the truth about corruption. ALWAYS STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT, TRUE AND GOOD!!!
ReplyDeleteI'd like to share an article I found with you regarding a belief I hold dearly.
For centuries, mankind knew all there was to know about the shape of the Earth. It was a flat planet, shaped roughly like a circle, with lots of pointy things hanging down from the underside. On the comparatively smooth topside, Europe sat in the middle of the circle, with the other continents scattered about the fringes, and parts of Africa hanging over the edge. The oceans lapped against the sides of the Earth, and in places ran over, creating currents that would pull over the edge ships that ventured too far out to sea. The space beyond the edge of the world was a dark realm inhabited by all sorts of unholy beasts. Fire and brimstone billowed up from the very depths of hell itself and curled 'round the cliffs whose infinite length jutted straight down to the darkest depths . . . .
Then, in the year of our Lord fourteen-hundred and ninety-two, it all changed. For decades a small band of self-proclaimed "enlightened" individuals had been spouting their heretical nonsense that the Earth was in fact round. Citing "proof" based on nothing more than assumptions, half-truths and blind guesses, they dazzled the populace with their " . . . undeniable mathematical and scientific evidence . . . that the world is shaped not like a pancake, but an orange!"
Rightly wishing to dispel notions regarding the alleged citrus-like shape of our planet, the Church was able to either silence or execute nearly all the fanatics. But a small handful remained, continuing to spread their blasphemous speeches and to promote their heretical ideals involving the very center of the universe. One of their number, who called himself Grigori Efimovich, would later be known to the rest of the world as Christopher Columbus. Using an elaborate setup involving hundreds of mirrors and a few burlap sacks, he was able to create an illusion so convincing that it was actually believed he had sailed around the entire planet and landed in the West Indies. As we now know, he did not. What Efimovich actually did was sail across the Atlantic Ocean to a previously undiscovered continent, North America, and even then only to a small island off the coast. It took him several years more even to "discover" his blunder and claim it as a " . . . new world". But the damage had already been done, and mankind entered into what we now call its "Dark Ages" . . . .
Welcome, Beatrice. That's an interesting analogy.
ReplyDeletePlease make your profile visible if you wish to continue to comment. See "About Me" on the front page for directions.
Pastor’s compensation is always a thorny issue. Seems that no matter how much or little he is paid there is always a small group who will say he is paid too much. On the other hand, I have never met a pastor who said he was paid enough.
ReplyDeleteThe general rule of thumb that I was taught is the pastor should be paid about as much as the average member. Of course that was in the day before the superstar preachers who want salaries in keeping with their star status.
Just as an aside, Dr. Robert G. Lee stopped drawing a salary from Bellevue but, instead, lived off the royalties from his books.
Which brings up another issue, when these guys write their “Forty Days to a Better You” and “Be the Best You, You Can Be” books is it on their time or church time? If it is on church time should the churches not be paid the royalties?
Oh, but SG tithes, right off the top. He reminds us of that almost every week!
ReplyDeleteYes, I know, but as I remember it, it was every sermon.
ReplyDelete