Tuesday, November 03, 2009

Happy Birthday, O Purveyor of Baloney!


With any blog come trolls. It's an inevitable fact of life. Often simply ignoring them will make them go away, but it's sometimes difficult to resist the temptation to respond and even more difficult persuading others not to respond. Give them a little attention, and they always return to the scene of the crime.

In the early days of this blog we were occasionally visited by "RM," aka Randy McDonald, who claimed to be a Ph.D. pastor from Texas (a graduate of SWBTS). It wasn't difficult to find Dr. McDonald. He advertised his little church (that he started) as well as his "Christian counseling" service.


RM's comments (a "collection" of the best is here should anyone be interested) were usually caustic and seemed to only be meant to taunt and hurl insults at me and others posting comments. After a while he seemed to grow tired of us and faded into the sunset.

Then we were joined by "Brady." "Brady" didn't claim to be anything. In fact, a pastor is about the last thing I would have expected this potty-mouthed character to be. (He sent an obviously fake photo of himself to someone once and claimed his name was "Brady Davis" while rebuking me and others for not revealing our "real" names.) Most of his early comments were published, but after a while they were so over the top I began rejecting them. However, as with all controversial comments, I directed them all to a special folder where I didn't have to see them. Here is a collection of "Brady's" rejected comments and some personal e-mails to me and others. (Where's that bar of Lifebuoy when you need it?) All I knew was the e-mails were coming from a suburb of Dallas, Texas and that we were getting frequent hits on the blog from someone in that same suburb. You never know when something that seems meaningless today might prove to be useful in the future, and so "the Brady collection" was stored away, largely forgotten, in the nether regions of my hard drive for all these months.

Back in the spring of this year, a new blog came on the scene. The Wartburg Watch, authored by "Dee" and "Deb," two women in North Carolina, deals with a variety of topics with the underlying theme being abuse in the church. A couple months ago a new commenter calling himself "Cooper" appeared on the WW (not to be confused with R.E. or Ralph Cooper, another occasional but friendly commenter on that blog). Immediately I knew I recognized "Cooper" from somewhere, and it didn't take me long to remember where.

"Brady" often resorted to certain unique phrases. One of his favorites for me was "o purveyor of filth" or "o purveyor of dirt." Not "oh," but "o". He harped on "why don't you request a meeting with Dr. Gaines?" and sarcastically called people "spiritual giants." RM used the same tired arguments, using much the same wording, not only with me but with Tom Rich of the FBC Jax Watchdog blog. Now, "Cooper" was using some of those same catch phrases on The Wartburg Watch. His "pet name" for them was "o glorious wenches." Again, not "oh," but "o". Here is a collection of some of "Cooper's" work. More than once he claimed he is living on welfare.

It was evident from all these men's writings that they were especially angry towards women. Perhaps they had issues with their mothers. Or perhaps there was an ugly divorce in one or more of their backgrounds. Whatever the reason(s), the venom just dripped from "Brady's" comments and e-mails to me. And I just smiled, knowing that eventually he'd slip up.

Well, folks, it took a while, but a few weeks ago he slipped up.

Randy McDonald's "church" seems to be no more. In fact, the phone number in the ads for the church turned out to be his personal cell phone number, and the address for the "church" changed several times.


Dr. McDonald's main occupation seems to be refereeing tennis matches for high schools and small colleges, and he has a blog. Perusing the front page recently I discovered this gem:


"In order to fully enjoy all our blessings, I am taking my two children (Brady on the left, and Phoebe on the right) to the lake today so they can chase ducks and swim all they want... "

"Brady," huh? Coincidence?

Recently an anonymous poster calling himself "Plano Man" showed up on Christa Brown's blog. Want to guess where RM lives now that he's single again? Here are some of his comments. Note his use of the phrase "o glorious Pharisees."


If there was any doubt at that point, the pieces all came together when McDonald posted this collection of articles on his blog. (Or here should those articles mysteriously disappear.)

I suppose you've figured out where I'm going with this. If it isn't obvious by now, "RM," "Brady," "Cooper," and "Plano man" (and I strongly suspect some others who've recently posted on the WW -- "Maude," "Jeff," and "Silly Boy") are one and the same. The same man who claims to be a Southern Baptist pastor and a personal friend of Dr. Rogers.

Many more interesting tidbits were learned about Dr. Randy McDonald by simply perusing the internet and further evidence of his multiple personalities was uncovered, but I think you've gotten a good idea of the heart of the man. It seems "truth in advertising" is an area Dr. McDonald stuggles with. In this 2001 letter to the Baptist Standard he claimed to have been the president of the SBTC (Southern Baptists of Texas Convention) board of directors for two years and a board member for five years. He was promptly called out by two people the following week, one being the man who actually was the first president of the then-three-year-old organization. Talk about having egg on your face! Not a pretty sight, is it? This kind of behavior was bad enough coming from A CErtain 20-year-old kid. Coming from a 62-year-old Ph.D.'d "pastor" it's beyond belief.

Today is Randy McDonald's birthday. Maybe it's time to "man up" and start acting your age, RM/Brady/Cooper/Plano Man/et al.

74 comments:

Dee said...

Wow, you should be on CSI MIami, you are that good! I am amazed that you got this figured out. The Wartburg Watch ladies join with you in this birthday "bash." Perhaps he needs to review some of the counseling books he got in school. Wait, did he go to school.

Thank you for your informative post. It should be saved and sent to all blogs, etc that have to deal with this baloney!

David said...

Dear Randy: I do hope you have a Happy Birthday. I guess you hate being outed. That is such a shame but damn I am laughing my sides off that I can hardly type. I know I should not use that nasty word but if I really expressed what I feel about you NASS would not let me post it. And no I am not a woman nor some victim that cannot think as you so often make fun of.

I must give NASS the credit on this one. NASS is sharper than a tack and you just stepped on it. Ouch. It amazes me how full of it you are. You have such a high esteem of yourself. And you are not even close to being what you try to make yourself believe. You are really a shell of a man and that is taking liberties with the word man.

You might be interested what one can find out from an IP address on an email, even the Yahoo, Gmail accounts. I guess you thought you were so smart but alas you weren’t.

You love to bully women but what about a man? Care to take me on? Nah, you are still a coward. Buddy it is more than time to man-up. Today since it is your birthday would be a good time to start.

And one last thing, you got outed by a woman. Wow! Go figure.

David Brown

Christa Brown said...

O Happy Birthday, Plano-man!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Happy Birthday, Randy. Look on the bright side, at least NASS confirmed your identity without using your local sheriff's office to investigate your tennis blog and your vitriolic posts.

Thy Peace said...

NASS:

Great sleuthing!

all-about-the-truth said...

WOW! Not sure where to start and not sure if I should even try. I have no prior knowledge of this guy and he sounds like a real piece of work. That being said, why in the world would you spend so much time on this guy and now dedicate a thread to him. I just do not get it. There are many "thugs" and liars I come across every day, but I would never waste my time (in your case it seems like many hours) researching them and trying to catch them in whatever it is they are lying about.

Do you think that is a good use of the time the Lord gives you? Instead of bashing me in the return, base your response on what the Bible says.

Should this kind of stuff be what we focus our time and efforts on? Should this be our heart?

I would say no and please do not respond that I am defending this guy. That is obviously not what ?I am doing, he is just bnot worth my time. Also, please do not claim this is the Lord's work like this blog is suppose to be. That is NOT the case and is a cop out and a excuse. That is an excuse that allows you to continue on this same path.

Lastly, why have you not deleted the curse word in David's post? I cannot wait to hear why.

Wade Burleson said...

NASS - Well done.

Randy,

This comment is a personal appeal to you. I am unsure how to contact you privately, but think the public appeal may be the best means in the long run.

We do not know each other and have never spoken personally. You may choose to discount what is written here, but these words are offered with a genuine concern for you and a desire to see that this post by NASS changes your life.

It is likely your heart flutters the way David's did when Nathan pointed his finger at the king and said, "Thou art the man." David's practice of pronouncing sanctimonious judgments on others, while ignoring his own sin, was exposed by God through a commoner who had the courage to confront.

You've been confronted and have arrived at a crossroads. One road leads to a bitter denunciation of anyone and everyone who participated in exposing you or celebrated at your exposure. The other road leads to brokenness.

Just a moment ago I knelt and asked God to send His grace without measure to your soul. My request of our Lord was that you would not defend, not attack, not hide and not shift the blame--but that you would confess your duplicity, hypocrisy and pharisaical spirit, and by God's grace become a broken man.

When God humbles a man by His grace, He breaks Him of self-righteousness and self-love. That usually happens when God makes a man to figuratively stand naked and exposed before the world at large. David felt it, my inclination is that if you have experienced even a small measure of God's grace, you now feel it.

Don't spurn it. Don't try to cover it. Don't waste it.

Simply acknowledge what is true, seek the forgiveness of those you have wronged, and rest in the forgiveness that is find in Christ. I remind you that the true power of Jesus Christ is ONLY seen in broken vessels. You chose the wrong road at this time and your life will remain powerless. You chose the road of confession and genuine repentance, by God's grace, and your life will be energized by the Spirit's power in ways you could never imagine.

My prayer for you is genuine and heartfelt. May God in His grace see fit to answer it for the good of His people.

In His Grace,

Wade

all-about-the-truth said...

anyone listen to the sermon preached at Bellevue Sunday? If not, it was great. I would love your response.

Lydia said...

"Do you think that is a good use of the time the Lord gives you? Instead of bashing me in the return, base your response on what the Bible says. "

Judge not? Isn't that what you preached here in a comment a few threads ago?


RM:

Happy B'day! From one of your favorite wenches!

sickofthelies said...

Randy,

Man-up, dude.

32yrs@bbc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

"The comment was the visiting preacher rebuked the congregation for not accepting change and made the remark that SG had the most tender heart of any man he knew."

Bisagno Praises Gaines

"Rebuke" might be too strong a description. One has to understand John Bisagno's history to understand where that's coming from. His philosophy has always seemed to be "anything to get them in the doors," so I believe what you heard Sunday was John Bisagno speaking from his heart. However, I thought it more than mere coincidence that he happened to choose the two topics he did for his sermons Sunday. Wonder if he was paid extra for that?

What did "dance with who brung you" mean there? I don't understand it in that context.

And that "church is a hospital for sinners" quote they all like to throw out (I was surprised at John Bisagno using it) is credited to this person.

all-about-the-truth said...

32 yrs: He did not rebuke our congregation specifically and not on the way "they" claimed. He preached from God's Word about legalism. It was a very convicting message and it seems it must have hit the target with some. It seems some only want parts of the Word preached. Sorry they could not take it, but I am glad they were there.

New BBC Open Forum said...

John Bisagno: "Steve Gaines, your pastor, has to be the most gracious, loving man of God I have ever known in my life."

Apparently Bisagno says the same things about other preachers as well.

Here (page 11) he is quoted endorsing a young preacher named Bruce Frank... "The PST [pastor search team] checked Dr. Frank's references. Dr. John Bisagno, Pastor Emeritus, First Baptist Church of Houston, said, 'Bruce is an outstanding preacher and teacher, and, simply stated, just about the most gracious and effective pastor and leader I have ever known.'"

It reminds me of reading Barbara Bush's biography. Don't get me wrong. I like Barbara Bush, but on almost every page she would tell some story about "my close friend, so-and-so" or "my dear friends, so-and-so." After a while it became meaningless because nobody has that many "close" and "dear" friends.

John Bisagno has no doubt known many, many people in his life. I seriously doubt he considers Steve Gaines to be "the most gracious, loving man of God" he's ever known.

fogmachine said...

I seem to remember a quote by Steve Gaines when considering coming to Bellevue.
"I tried to tick them off."

I believe this was made in reference to dealing with the search committee and then repeated to the congregation down at Gardendale when trying to explain how the process worked to get him to Bellevue. According to Gaines, he tried his best to tick the search committee off but they wanted me anyway.

What a gracious man!

This man reaks of pride, not grace.

Been Redeemed said...

Unless there have been some changes in his life, John Bisagno has had some issues with his eating habits just as Gaines currently has. Therefore, I would think that they would be quick to commend each other with "in kind" compliments. Besides, the standard is not a fellow, like-minded preacher's opinion, it is the Truth of the Word we are to judge by. And birds of a feather really DO flock together?

all-about-the-truth said...

Been redeemed: Your words and actions are NOT of Christ and at the very least please get your facts straight before posting. Dr Gaines has a very very serious health condition and his weight has nothing to do with his eating habits. I have said that several times, what is so hard about that to understand? It has to do with his condition and the medication he takes.

You are wrong in making fun and making light of someones weight and especially in a public forum. I am sure there are some on here that are over weight and or not pleasing to the eyes. That is not my focus and it should not be yours.

If we should be judging by the Truth of the Word (and I agree) it seems you might want to catch up on your reading.

Been Redeemed said...

AATT said:
"Been redeemed: Your words and actions are NOT of Christ and at the very least please get your facts straight before posting. Dr Gaines has a very very serious health condition and his weight has nothing to do with his eating habits. I have said that several times, what is so hard about that to understand? It has to do with his condition and the medication he takes."
Sorry Bubba, I have seen them both at a chow down...and have known John for years. You are mistaken. Any man that orders two desserts and gobbles them both such as Gaines has been known to do, has a problem with gluttony. That is just calling it as it is.

New BBC Open Forum said...

No one is making fun or light of SG's weight. I've no doubt the medication makes the problem worse and for a long time I tried to be sensitive to that, but he has bragged from the pulpit about when it's time to order dessert no one asks him if he wants dessert because it's a given that he does. He said he just orders the "sampler tray." I was there and I heard it.

He boasts of "my 20-inch neck."

I've seen him practically drool on the pulpit when he's mentioned some fattening dish he ate or is thinking about eating.

We saw him on the news last year at the "Family Fun Festival" chomping down on a greasy corndog while doing his best Homer-Simpson-with-a-mouth-full-of-donut imitation, "Ummmph.... "

And not long ago an eyewitness observed him in a restaurant order and eat two desserts after consuming a full meal.

So spin it however you want. Medication is no doubt a factor, but medication cannot be blamed for gluttony.

gmommy said...

"Your words and actions are NOT of Christ..."

This is a response that has gotten so old and Pharisee-ish /makes me want to throw up in the blog world.
Seriously....are ANY of us really pure and holy enough to speak to someone like that????
Of course, it IS the example SG and Mac (I'm sure others also but they are who I'm familiar with) set while standing in the pulpit.
No wonder people think "Christians" are hypocritical and a joke.

all-about-the-truth said...

1. You might want to check the medication he is on.

2. He makes light of it like many do and many would. You are going to tell me you do not understand that?

An eyewitness? I am very glad the Lord has me doing worth while things with the time he gives me.

all-about-the-truth said...

Been redeemed: your post is based on legalism. That when someone eats 2 desserts they are a guilty of gluttony??? That is a lie and is absurd.

As far as you spying on what others are doing and eating, that is scary and sad.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Yes, most people understand that prednisone can increase one's appetite and make it difficult to maintain one's ideal weight. Most people also understand that eating like one did back in one's football-playing days and eating everything that doesn't get out of your way long after one is no longer playing football makes it next to impossible to maintain one's former weight.

An eyewitness?

Main Entry: eye·wit·ness
Pronunciation: \ˈī-ˈwit-nəs\
Function: noun

: one who sees an occurrence or an object; especially : one who gives a report on what he or she has seen

e.g. Someone dining at an adjacent table was an unwitting eyewitness to Steve Gaines ordering and eating two desserts.

"I am very glad the Lord has me doing worth while things with the time he gives me."

Oh, so true.

Been Redeemed said...

aatt,
"An eyewitness? I am very glad the Lord has me doing worth while things with the time he gives me."

Worthwhile? Really? Like accusing your brethren while chatting up on a blog when you should be out witnessing for "Bellevue Loves Memphis"? You are the very last person who should point a finger at anyone. Are you not judging us?

I know what medication Gaines is on, it does cause puffiness and one has to control their diet while taking it to avoid being FAT. John F Kennedy started taking it right before the election and it gave his haggard appearance a lift because he "filled out" a bit, but it in no way made him FAT. Get YOUR facts straight before you pass judgement based on something you have been told but know nothing about.

all-about-the-truth said...

You had the nerve to post Luke 18:11 and you run this blog.

Been Redeemed said...

aatt,
Are you senile? Did you not understand the words that were written to you?

I guess not, that would require an iota of discernment and you obviously are oblivious to that notion.

I don't mean to be ugly, but you need to LEAVE this blog. Go and sit at the feet of the idol you worship. You are getting on my last nerve with your nonsense.

all-about-the-truth said...

Been: instead of insulting me, why not tell me what you are talking about. People do miss things. Many of you seem to miss a great deal of what I say but I do not respond like that. I am amazed that so many on here cannot go a day without insulting, calling names, and on and on but hold others to very different standards.

all-about-the-truth said...

What the Bible says about anger

http://www.scripturemenu.com/BibleVerseList.html?topicid=72

New BBC Open Forum said...

Are you struggling with anger issues, AATT???

all-about-the-truth said...

Seems Been redeemed is, read the post. Full of the love of Christ right? I am sure it will be ignored like usual and excuses will be made.

The curse word in David's? How do you justify that?? That is a question that deserves an answer.

New BBC Open Forum said...

AATT,

You answer the question I've asked you at least twice, and then we might talk.

all-about-the-truth said...

What was that?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Please don't play dumb with me. If you need to refresh your memory, go back and scan the comments on the September 14th and October 19th articles.

Lydia said...

"Your words and actions are NOT of Christ..."

This is a response that has gotten so old and Pharisee-ish /makes me want to throw up in the blog world."

You nailed it, gmommy. It is a standard/overused response meant to quelch any criticism or hard questions anyone has about the celebrity preachers. They want you to think it is a sin to dare question the great ones.

Nevermind it is a 'judgemental'
response and AATT told us a few threads ago that all judging is a sin. So, I have to wonder why s/he engages in doing it so much?

all-about-the-truth said...

Sorry but I do not remember the question. I do not read every post and I do not what all has been asked over the last month.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I do not read every post... "

Well, that's obvious. Maybe you should try reading what others are saying before responding.

Go back and find it. It was asked of you several times, and you were posting comments all during that time while ignoring the glaring question. When you find it, come back and answer, please. Until then no more of your comments will be published. (I'm not rejecting them. I'll hold them for you and publish them when you answer the question.)

Keeps Living It said...

AATT -

I am glad to see you're back and willing to answer questions that have been previously asked but gone unanswered - here's one I asked a few weeks ago:

I would ask you to honestly look at the question I asked, along with the evidence presented, and give me your thoughts about why the church is declining.

In case you forgot what the "evidence presented" was I have included my post from 10/28 so you don't have to go looking for it:

AATT -

Thanks for answering my questions - now if you don't mind I'd like to have a conversation with you about a few things:

Let me say we agree on this - God's work is still being done at Bellevue. I believe most are doing it for His Glory.

Now since you have been there since the late 80's or early 90's you know what it's like to be at a vibrant growing church. I think we also agree that church growth has nothing to do with programs or productions, correct? It is the selfless and humble preaching of The Word of God. So my question to you is why has the church lost so many STRONG Christians over the last 4 years? Please don't say it's only because Dr. Rogers died or Mrs. Rogers left because I know you're smarter than that.

Attendance is down more than 40+% in the last 6 yrs with the most dramatic drop happening in the last 18 months - these are not my figures but straight out of the annual report dated June 2009.

About the split service - this is not this church's calling, nor has it ever been. I don't know how it effects your family but it is splitting up so many families' time of worship. They are pushing the youth to go to the 11:11, while many of the parents are either serving in the 9:30 or their SS's are at 11. I suspect your response is "well change so you can go together" - however things are not that simple and more importantly why are we making families make that choice??? Again, I would understand if we were called but we are not - just look at the attendance figures for evidence of that. They are already dropping in the 11:11 as are the numbers in the 9:30 combined choir and orch.

One other thing I wanted to talk to you about is you said God is going to hold people accountable and you could not be more correct!

- He will hold accountable the people who have left out of anger and emotion, but should have stayed and held this Pastor accountable.

- He will hold accountable the men who are there now, but afraid to rise up and not let this church be taken hostage.

- He will hold accountable the group of men who are more interested in their current positions of power and authority than the spiritual health of God's church - oh whoa be to them!

- But lastly, and perhaps most importantly, He will hold accountable the shepherd who has scattered the flock like a wolf in sheeps clothing - they are all over Memphis.

Jesus is the head of this church but Steve Gaines alone is the shepherd. I believe that he, and he alone, will give an account for all he has done and not done during his time at Bellevue. The sheep are not only scattered, they are beaten and grieving and only he -through the power of the Holy Spirit - can change that.

This church has struggled mightily over the last 4 years and what I am about to say is very hard to write, but I believe it to be the truth: The Pastor has tried every program, spent VAST amounts of money, and changed staff to better suit him. He has done this in the name of "God's will or evangalism" but if we are all very honest with ourselves we can see it for what it is - a way to stop the decline in attendance. There truly is only one way to stop this decline - and I think if you and everyone look deep down and ask God's will they know what it is.

I am sorry because I have probably made you angry and that is not my intention - you are my brother in Christ. However, I would ask you to honestly look at the question I asked, along with the evidence presented, and give me your thoughts about why the church is declining.

Thanks for your time.

Keeps Living It said...

Hello All -

I've been away for a bit, but noticed there was a comment / question about the things John Bisagno said to the congregation while he was preaching in the Pastor's absence.

The comments that were the most egregious were made on Sunday night. He challenged the deacons to promote unity in the church - he did this by having them stand and gave them a direct challenge to do this. He went on to say that when he was pastor, his deacons "had his back" while he was making decisions.

It was pretty clear those comments came at the behest of someone - I don't know if it was the Pastor, deacon chairman, David Coombs or another supporter. But I do understand they (the deacons) are not "united"(read: agree with) about all of the changes and spending being proposed in the Vision 20/10 plan.

To any deacon reading this - Neither is most of the congregation!

New BBC Open Forum said...

KLI,

There was supposed to be a vote on the 2010 thing, I think on Sunday night a couple weeks ago. Were there any nay votes, or was there even an opportunity for nay votes? I expect it went the way votes on everything else have gone in the last 2+ years. "All in favor, say 'aye.' The motion carries."

Also, where's all this money supposed to be coming from?

Keeps Living It said...

I wasn't there on that particular Sunday evening, I was away. However from what I heard, it was a pretty low key affair without discussion. What I find interesting is that they hold these votes on Sunday evening - these services are not well attended. Why not do it on Sunday morning when the majority of the congregation can participate? Of course that's a rhetorical question.

Now to answer your question about how they are going to pay for all of this - from what I understand they are going to use any balance of the 2005 love offering that's left over after the prayer room is built, then "other funds" as they become available.

I do understand that not everything presented is necessarily going to be done - though not sure which ones are definite.

Speaking of the Love Offering - does anyone know what it's for this year? I think it's next week and usually it's been announced well before now.

Martin_Luther said...

Here's John Bisagno explaining his interpretation of
Deaconhood

-

TN Lizzie said...

This was in Bellevue Today on Nov. 1:

"Love Offering November 22
We will celebrate God’s blessings on Sunday, November 22, by giving to help fund Phase 1 of our Long Range Plan. Please begin to prayerfully consider what part God has for you in the 2009 Love Offering. Don’t miss the joy of helping to fund our mission!"

Lily said...

What is “Phase 1 of our Long Range Plan” and how does one find out more about all the phases?

As relates to a past post of aatt “That when someone eats 2 desserts they are a guilty of gluttony??? That is a lie and is absurd.” I just cannot resist a reply to this one. Having worked in hospitals, clinics and private practice as a dietitian for 14 years, I can assure you that eating 2 desserts with or without having eaten a full meal is gluttony. This applies even for those very skinny people, as their calories need to be obtained from more nutritious sources than pure sugar.

Lydia said...

So now the deacons are getting a spanking from someone brought in.

Does anyone understand the unity that is taught in scripture? It is a spiritual unity. The indwelling Holy Spirit.

It does not mean go along with the few guys with titles who are really hirlings. Has nothing to do with that at all. But 'unity' has to be the most abused word and teaching in most mega churches.


It means shut up and go along with those who think they are authorities. If you don't,you are in sin.

BTW: Why does BBC need a prayer chapel? Can't they pray any where?

32yrs@bbc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Been Redeemed said...

Not meaning to change the subject, but actually hoping to provoke some soul searching amongst those of us who believe that the Word is the Standard and the Authority that we should seek to live and worship by, and not that of another human.
Some thinking soul told me a few months ago that she had been impressed with searching out what the scriptures said about the lifting of hands. In all of her research, and it was a lot, she said she saw no where in Scripture that we were to lift our hands in worship or praise unless they were "Holy". I began a bit of searching myself and indeed, I cannot find any Scriptures that would say otherwise.
If someone knows of any where in Scripture that states otherwise, please let me know. I have always felt that it was more of an emotional issue rather than a Scriptural one, although from time to time I can remember Dr. and Mrs. Rogers lifting their hands in reverence to the Holy Spirit's presence, but I am unmoved by those that "worship" with the waving (and clapping) of hands.
I know that there would be very few, if any, of us (BBC Staff included) that could say our hands are "Holy", although I believe Dr. and Mrs. Rogers would have come much closer than anyone else I know.
Thoughts anyone?

Lydia said...

"If someone knows of any where in "Scripture that states otherwise, please let me know. I have always felt that it was more of an emotional issue rather than a Scriptural one, although from time to time I can remember Dr. and Mrs. Rogers lifting their hands in reverence to the Holy Spirit's presence, but I am unmoved by those that "worship" with the waving (and clapping) of hands."

There is some stuff in the Psalms like clap your hands, etc. But you got it, it is about emotionalism.

Ever wonder why most churches sing about 20-40 minutes straight now? It is right out of the worship handbook and is meant to get the pew sitters into the emotional realm. They call that "worship". It is really manipulation and is man made.

It is all about 'experience' and emotionalism now. It is a sort of manufactured high and people have no idea it is planned that way.

If the Holy Spirit really moved, they would all be on their faces in repentance.

32yrs@bbc said...

"It is all about 'experience' and emotionalism now. It is a sort of manufactured high and people have no idea it is planned that way.

If the Holy Spirit really moved, they would all be on their faces in repentance."

AMEN!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Some thinking soul told me a few months ago that she had been impressed with searching out what the scriptures said about the lifting of hands. In all of her research, and it was a lot, she said she saw no where in Scripture that we were to lift our hands in worship or praise unless they were 'Holy.'"

It seems from Scripture the raising of "holy hands" had more to do with prayer than "praise and worship."

What does the Bible say about raising hands?

Christian Courier > Are Christians Required to “Lift Up Holy Hands”?

Mod-Blog > BIBLE STUDY: Raising your hands in church

John Mark Ministries > What Is Wrong With Contemporary Worship

Keith Drury > Raising Hands in Worship

And for those who are into "roles"... you ladies need to keep your hands in your pockets!

What does the Bible say about raising your hands during worship?

"I know that there would be very few, if any, of us (BBC Staff included) that could say our hands are 'Holy', although I believe Dr. and Mrs. Rogers would have come much closer than anyone else I know."

Okay, that statement reeeeeally bothers me.

Romans 3:10

All I'm going to say right now is that your "right" to raise your hands in worship (or praise or prayer) ends a minimum of two feet from my face. I had the misfortune of attending a service at BBC one time where a woman sitting next to me waved her hands in the air all during the song service, and half the time her left hand was in front of my nose. She may have been focused on worship, but I found it impossible to be focused on anything but her left hand.

Been Redeemed said...

NASS,
"I know that there would be very few, if any, of us (BBC Staff included) that could say our hands are 'Holy', although I believe Dr. and Mrs. Rogers would have come much closer than anyone else I know."

Okay, that statement reeeeeally bothers me.

Romans 3:10

Please forgive my confusing statement, the emphasis should have been on "if any" - I agree with your statement, and the scripture you used. Although, I have seen Dr. Rogers after he had spent time with Jesus and the glow about him superceded anything I have ever witnessed. That is why I used him as an example. Some come much closer than others to living a life in the pursuit of holiness, however the point in my post was that the lifting of hands as it is done by many is not necessarily scriptural. And, like you said, it is a distraction from worship, especially when the choir and those near us do it. I see the same emotions at my favorite ball game.

ezekiel said...

"I know that there would be very few, if any, of us (BBC Staff included) that could say our hands are 'Holy', although I believe Dr. and Mrs. Rogers would have come much closer than anyone else I know."

Actually, if you believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, if you have been baptised into His death (Romans 6:3) you have as a present reward, Holiness and in the end, eternal life. (Romans 6:22)

No Christian is any more holy than any other, simply because holyness is found in the union with Christ and not from any personal works.(Romans 3:28). You have been purified, washed...

1Co 6:11 And such some of you were [once]. But you were washed clean (purified by a complete atonement for sin and made free from the guilt of sin), and you were consecrated (set apart, hallowed), and you were justified [pronounced righteous, by trusting] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the [Holy] Spirit of our God.


Rom 8:30 And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].

Rom 8:30 -
Moreover: Rom_8:28, Rom_1:6, Rom_9:23-24; Isa_41:9; 1Co_1:2, 1Co_1:9; Eph_4:4; Heb_9:15; 1Pe_2:9; 2Pe_1:10; Rev_17:14, Rev_19:9

he called: Rom_3:22-26; 1Co_6:11; Tit_3:4-7

he justified: Rom_8:1, Rom_8:17-18, Rom_8:33-35, Rom_5:8-10; Joh_5:24, Joh_6:39-40, Joh_17:22, Joh_17:24; 2Co_4:17; Eph_2:6; Col_3:4; 1Th_2:12; 2Th_1:10-12, 2Th_2:13-14; 2Ti_2:11; Heb_9:15; 1Pe_3:9, 1Pe_4:13-14, 1Pe_5:10

Dr. AJ said...

Ez,
It is still a purely emotional response. I have to agree with 32 yrs and Lydia. If one is truly in the presence of the Holy Spirit, we would be on our face in awe, no matter how "holy" we may think we are.

ezekiel said...

Dr.AJ,

What seems odd to me is that you discount one emotional response for another, raising hands to bowing on your face.

I would hope that the much to be prized encounter with the Holy Spirit would be one that is constant rather than fleeting, something that is internal and eternal rather than an emotional outpouring found for short periods of time at some gathering of the church.


(Act 2:38) And Peter answered them, Repent (change your views and purpose to accept the will of God in your inner selves instead of rejecting it) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of and release from your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(Act 10:45) And the believers from among the circumcised [the Jews] who came with Peter were surprised and amazed, because the free gift of the Holy Spirit had been bestowed and poured out largely even on the Gentiles.

(1Co 6:19) Do you not know that your body is the temple (the very sanctuary) of the Holy Spirit Who lives within you, Whom you have received [as a Gift] from God? You are not your own,

(1Ti 4:14) Do not neglect the gift which is in you, [that special inward endowment] which was directly imparted to you [by the Holy Spirit] by prophetic utterance when the elders laid their hands upon you [at your ordination].


And rather than having you on your face in awe, I would think that He would have you glorying and exulting in Jesus Christ and what He did for us.

Php 3:3 For we [Christians] are the true circumcision, who worship God in spirit and by the Spirit of God and exult and glory and pride ourselves in Jesus Christ, and put no confidence or dependence [on what we are] in the flesh and on outward privileges and physical advantages and external appearances--

Dr. AJ said...

Ez,
By all means then go ahead, raise your hands. You are free to do that you know, (well, for now we are).

I am not going to argue with you over it, I was just making a statement based on my personal experience with the God of my Salvation. I don't need to clap my hands and wave my arms in the air because I have been on my face and there is no comparison.

gmommy said...

AJ,
I don't think Ez is making any arguments for or against the actual act of raising hands or bowing to God. I think he is just pointing to the constant indwelling we have of the Holy Spirit.
I think the more we mature as believers we have fewer "moments" of emotional awe that are might be stimulated/prompted by what is going on around us. Maybe there is more of a consistent adoration, reverence, and awareness of the Holy Spirit's comfort and strength that enables us every moment of every day.
I also think I write run on sentences and that Ez, Lydia, and 32+ are much better at explaining scripture :)

WishIhadknown said...

Keeps Living it
Sorry I have been away and have not been able to respond to the point we were discussing in your 11/01 1:25PM post about leaving Bellevue.
Indeed there was the generic dismissal of members from the pulpit by the leaders of Bellevue and the subsequent description of us as “trash.” Not exactly sure that is a very scriptural attitude to take with the people, as in fellow seekers, you have pledged to love and affirm but the message was clear.
This was followed by the rant of the head of the Communication Committee who in a very agitated tone made it clear the committee was not interested in hearing the concerns of the members, often in tears, who came to the meeting. The decisions of the leadership had already been decided and we, the church members, were wasting his, the committees and our time expressing our concerns.
The final blow came in talking to a staff member I have known for most of thirty years and heard is teachings over that time period. What he taught me in the past and what he says now are two entirely different things. The meeting ended with his pounding his finger into my chest and telling me to accept what the leaders were doing or leave because I was no longer welcome.
At that point I saw no alternative. To me Bellevue is following a course that is not of God, it may be popular and appear to appeal to a mass audience but it is contrary to anything I have been taught as being Godly. This is especially true if leaders are directing members to leave. To me no true spirit filled Christian would ever demand members to leave a church, especially on a mass scale. If I am wrong, I am wrong but I just do not see it.

WishIhadknown said...

Dr AJ
I'll amen that and raise my right hand as a witness!

As always I recommend going to the Bible. In particular look at the worship in Revelation. I just don't think they worry about raising their hands or not.

ezekiel said...

Dr. AJ,

Gmommy is reading me pretty good, sorry you and I aren't communicating as well. I am not advocating raising hands any more than I would long public prayers or running down to the alter and putting on a big show. I'm just not going to be critical of those that do. I won't pressure them to stop if they won't pressure me to start. :)

What is really great, I think, is the freedom to worship as we feel led. By the Holy Spirit and not some manipulated emotionally geared performance. I think you and I see it more alike than we differ.

Gmommy, thanks for stating it as well as you did!

When it comes to getting on your face in awe though, it seems sort of OT to me. Based on an OT relationship with God. Now that Jesus has come, isn't our relationship with the Father different?

Eph 3:11 This is in accordance with the terms of the eternal and timeless purpose which He has realized and carried into effect in [the person of] Christ Jesus our Lord,
Eph 3:12 In Whom, because of our faith in Him, we dare to have the boldness (courage and confidence) of free access (an unreserved approach to God with freedom and without fear).

Grace and Peace Dr. AJ.

32yrs@bbc said...

"This is especially true if leaders are directing members to leave. To me no true spirit filled Christian would ever demand members to leave a church, especially on a mass scale. If I am wrong, I am wrong but I just do not see it."

wishihadknown:
You are not wrong. Most of what you stated, I know to be fact. The church is so conformed to the world now that it acts like the world. In its zeal to bring in the world, it has lost its moorings and has grieved not only many of its own but, I believe, the Holy Spirit of God. No amount of music, emotionalism, shouting
"Amen!" or waving of arms in the air can bring down the power of God when He has chosen to remove it. JMO

Dr. Bill Loney said...

You know, baloney is actually spelled bologna.

Your rendering is borderline infringement on a certain good doctor...but I guess I'll let it slide this time.

Wow! I guess these new meds DO help with conflict resolution... 'cept for last week when I shot the neighbor's dog. But he had it coming, seeings how he had been spreading gossip 'bout me and the missus...I think its in the bible bout how dogs shouldn't gossip...ceptin only if its true, but since he's a well respected church-goin dog, everybody was believing him. And it aint like I kilt him...oh sure, he wont be able to ride his bicylce for a while, but he didn't hardly ride it much anyway...he usually just hitch-hiked. I remember him gettin picked up by a travelin do-gooder, then sticken his head out the window with his tongue flappin in the wind. But then again, he was probably also gossipin to the feller what picked him up! Yep, I'm glad I shot him...course now when he gets better he's probably gonna be tearin up trash bags. Man! I dont like dogs. Well I like some dogs, just not them faker-religious gossipin dogs, and dogs whats got their tail cut off...thats just too pretensious...plus I aint ever gotten mine cut off.

Mmmm....Maybe I need to double down on my meds.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Ummm... yeah, maybe. Hi, doc! Hope you're feeling better.

Dr. AJ said...

The very same people that I see on TV waving their arms and swaying to the music are the same ones that were ugly to my wife and told us, with pointed finger to the face, "if you don't like it...leave"...
Enuff said.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Dr. Bill,

I would never knowingly infringe on you!

baloney

noun

Something that does not have or make sense.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Dr. AJ,

I can see how that would make it in-your-face personal. Maybe they're waving goodbye to you and your wife!

gmommy said...

It didn't bother "RM" one bit that Wade said anything to him or that he was outed on so many blogs. Unless there is a second RM...he has commented on Wade''s blog since this post. People who aren't embarrassed by something like this have serious problems.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

At the Loney Mountain Fellowship Tabernacle, it weren't a whole lot of hand wavin...cept for that one time when the preacher was waving
one of his free hands wildly.

We later deduced at his funeral that he was in fact trying to indicate to us that adding a 16 foot reticulated python to his snake handling regimin wasn't such a good idea.

Oh well, hindsight is 20/20.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Loney Mountain Fellowship Tabernacle's former preacher?

BkWormGirl said...

I know this thread has been here for a while but just found a few minutes to read and catch up. Going to post my two cents (and yes that probably is an inflated worth) on the matter or raising hands.

But first my disclaimers: the opinions expressed in my following comments are only mine. They are expressed only as a form of engaging in conversation. They are not intended to dissuade, convince or in any way manipulate another individual's thoughts on this matter. (Did I cover it all Nass? If not - all blog readers - please accept my apologies in advance.) Whew - got that out. Moving along to the statement.

TO be clear - I do not think anyone should be waiving arms, dancing or in any way infringing on the space of those around them.

I also think people should not feel as though they should not worship in whatever manner draws them closest to the throne of God - as long as the previous paragraph is also noted.

I disagree that music/worship is man made manipulation - all of the time. Sometimes I agree that it is, especially when lighting is changed, fog machines - sorry have no place in church in my mind, etc. However, I do think that for some of us - that longer time of music/worship is really appreciated. I enjoy the time to block out all of the world's stresses that have been overwhelming and focus on my God. And for me, I can enter into a place of sweet worship and sometimes honestly the preaching ruins that. Yes I still learn from preaching - but I enjoy full worship.

With regard to raising hands - I do on occasion raise hands in church. But more often I raise hands in worship in my home office. I do believe that sometimes hands raised in worship exalting the name of God and praising the One who has saved us is perfectly acceptable.

I like what Ezekiel said. (I think it was Ezekiel - sorry if I am giving credit to the wrong person.) I don't want to limit anyone from raising hands in worship as long as I am not forced to. (And even though I don't desire to limit anyone's form of worship - I do think we need to be sure that our worship is not like that of the Pharisees. Personally we must ensure that our worship is only for the benefit of the most high God - not for anyone else, and not limiting another's praise.)

BkWormGirl said...

Oh - and a special good to "see" you to David, Dr. Looney and Sick of the Lies - I always enjoy your comments.


(I enjoy reading all other poster's as well. I was simply saying hello to a few who I had not seen comment in a while.)

32yrs@bbc said...

A friend visited a church this past week where the congregants were told throughout the song service to "Give God a big hand!" They were also told it was o.k to loosen up in their worship and they could "sing, shout and dance about." This was a Southern Bapt.
church.

When the worship leader and/or pastor nags or becomes demanding in how the congregants are to express themselves in worship
("I want to see a big smile on your face. Some of you look like you are at a funeral.") - that is wrong! They are to LEAD in worship;
not force their idea of what worship is.

Until pastors and worship leaders learn that you cannot treat people like they are 3 year olds, making demands of them about something very personal, then they are going to continue to see their churches
failing and faltering. If they want the love and respect of their
members then they must earn it by
extending that same love and respect they themselves desire. Most sheep will follow closely a shepherd who cares for them and in whom they can trust. Bottom line:
when the preacher has a pastor's heart - that is a humble, servant's heart, and those who are in position of leadership LEAD instead of dictating; the congregants feel loved and safe.
THEN the Holy Spirit of God will
fill and overflow hearts, true worship will take place,and as
people grow in their knowledge of the Lord, love one another as they should, the end result is the overflow of their joy reaching out into the community in which they live affecting the lives of others in a positive way. That is true worship that blesses and glorifies
our Lord Jesus Christ.

Cakes said...

Happy Birthday, Brady!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hi, cakes! A little belated, aren't we?

Cakes said...

Yup--been really busy.

New BBC Open Forum said...

If you'd like to go back to the Just Stop Trying So Hard thread, Sarah has left several interesting comments there. I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts.